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A42468 The churche[s] publick order argued and opened by a second confere[nce] betweene Silvanus and Himeneu[s] ... wherein the ordinances of the Church of Engla[nd for] Gods publick worship are proved to beagreeable to Gods sacred word / by L.G. [i.e. I.G.], a continuall friend and lover ofthe tr[uth]. J. G. 1643 (1643) Wing G33; ESTC R42041 23,389 47

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come as doing it by that place and seniority he had in the Church And therefore he speaks in the singular number I will and not in the plurall and so in another place he speaks as if the care of all the Churches lay upon him 2 Cor 11.28 And as the care was specially in gathering and edifying the Churches by Doctrine so also in ordering therefore he saith as he had given order to the Church of Galatia about things that had not beene ordered by the Scriptures even so doe yee saith hee to the Church of Corinth 1 Cor. 16.1 And he rejoyceth in the holy Order that was in the Church of Collossia being much comforted in the order as well as in the grace it self in these words for though I be absent in the flesh yet am I with you in the spirit joying and beholding your Order and the stedfastnesse of your faith in Christ Col. 2.5 And this was not Saint Pauls practice alone but generall in all Churches by other Apostles Elders and Evangelists as appeares by his Epistle to Titus saying For this cause left I thee in Crete that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and ordaine Elders in every City as I had appoynted thee Titus 1.5 All which in totall in what hath beene said the Apostle to the Thessalonians makes a conclusion without any exception in these words Therefore Brethren stand stast and hold the traditions which yee have beene t●ught whether by word or by our Epistle 2 Thes 2.15 Hym. These Scriptures doe clearly shew that the Church hath power to prescribe Order and make rules for such things as Gods word doth not particularize so that the traditions be consonant thereunto Sil. That the rule for reading the Scriptures is agreeable to the Word I have sufficiently proved before but that you may beyond all exception be satisfied here what the Apostle saith to 〈◊〉 ●hurches of Collosse and and Laodicea And when th● 〈◊〉 is read amongst you cause that it be also read in the Church of the Laodiceans Col. 4.16 And the command of our Lord Christ to search the Scriptures is to read the Scriptures Iohn 5.39 According to that Matthew 29. Let him that readeth consider as also blessed is hee that readeth and they that here the words of this prophesie and keep those things that are written therein Rom. 1. Hym. But what warrant is there for the reading of those parts of the Scriptures appoynted of the Psalmes the Chapters the Epistles and Gospels Sil. If you grant it is warrantable to read them Order and conveniency calls to authority to appoynt which and how much for all the Scriptures cannot be read at one time therefore it was well done of the Church to divide the Prophesies of each Prophet that are long and the History of the Evangelists and the Epistles of the Apostles into severall parts or Chapters and in the use we find it profitable and therefore warrantable though there be no rule for it in Scripture but meerely of humane Order And for the Epistles and Gospells they are but parts of the Chapters for the most part of them but such portions of Scriptures as doe most fit the occasion and the time of solemne Feasts and dayes of humiliation According to our Saviour Christs example Luke 4.17 It is said there was given unto him the Book of the Prophet Esayas And when he had opened the book hee found the place wherein it was written The spirit of the Lord is upon me because he hath aunoynted me to preach the Gospell to the poore he hath sent me to heale the broken hearted c. to preach the acceptable yeare of the Lord. And when he had read this portion of Scripture hee closed the book and gave it againe to the Minister By which it is plaine our Saviour Christ sought in the Prophesie for that part and such a part it was that fitted the particular occasion as himselfe saith verse 21. This day is this Scripture fulfilled in your eares Hym. I must confesse this is cleare to me But pray shew how the Statutes and the Scriptures agree in appointing set formes for prayer and prayses in the Congregation Sil. Authority in appoynting a forme for prayer and prayses doth not require nothing but set formes for the publick for before and after Sermons their prayers are left to their owne ordering and each man is free in regard of any forme imposed But the Church for the better direction of the Minister and edification of the many doth appoynt and command some to be used but they are such as are both for matter and manner without just exception 〈◊〉 onely observing there in words of Truth to the onely tru● God to which we adding our spirituall affections make up the true Worship of God in every part of it as our Lord hath taught us God is is a spirit and hee that worships God must worship him in Spirit and Truth Iohn 4.29 T The brevity shortnesse and exactnesse of these formes ●f prayer following are agreeable to the wisedome of So●omon his Order for Gods publike worship When thou goest saith he into the house of God bee not rash with thy mouth c. for God is in heaven therefore let thy words be few Eccles 5.1 2. And such is the councell of the King of Kings the wisedome of wisedome Matth. 6.7 When yee pray use no vaine repetition as the heathen doe c. for your father knoweth what things you have need of before you aske him According to which see and read the generall Confession of sinnes and that O God which art the Author of peace and lover of concord c. As also O Lord our heavenly Father Almighty and everlasting God which hast safely brought us to the beginning of this day c. with the rest examine and see how plain and full the expressions are so briefe pithy and pertinent as words can possibly bee thought of termes of such excellent yet plaine meaning that the lowest and meanest capacity may joyne in affection that a sweet harmony may be made by the supplication of the whole Congregation in truth to the God of Truth Now to prove that such set-formes of words are lawfull to pray and invocate God by the Scriptures are plentifull both in the Old and new Testament as Luke 11.2 The Disciples desiring the Lord to teach them to pray as Iohn taught his Disciples our Lord saith unto them when yee pray say Our Father which art in Heaven c. And he gives them a perfect forme of words And the example of our Blessed Lord himselfe is left written for our example Matthew 26.44 that he prayed the third time the same words Marke it here is a large consideration in a short Petition excellent in brevity pertinency fervencie and importunity all the men in the world cannot answer this command and example of our Saviour Christ which gives warrant without controule that God may be worshipped truely
that befor● our first conference Acts 14.23 And they ordained them E● in every Church that is Preachers as you there observed 〈◊〉 Yet not one nor all those places doe shew the forme they 〈◊〉 though they prove the thing they practised Silv. Neither doe the Scriptures lay downe the f●● of Marriage although it bee honoured beyond con● by God Himselfe in Paradice Gen. 2.22 As also b● Lords first miracle Iohn 2.1 11. And the author 〈◊〉 ●ebrewes layes it down as an Ordinance for ever Marriage 〈◊〉 honourable in all Hebr. 13.4 and yet in all the Scrip●●●es old or new we doe not finde a forme for the manner ●or persons appoined to celebrate the matter but some ●●nes wee finde the Parents did performe it in the Patri●●hs times and in the Iudges times the Magistrates and 〈◊〉 other places it is said they tooke unto them Wives as 〈◊〉 they married themselves for so it is said Gene. 6.3 ●ow because there is not a forme of words in Scripture ●he holy ordinance of Marriage waste and voyd No ●inke none will be so voyd of Religion to say so but 〈◊〉 it not rather prove that it is left by the Authoritie Gods Word to the liberty of Christs Church to de●ine assigne and order in every Countrey as I shall 〈◊〉 anon an Act of Parliament of this Church in ano●●●● case Hym. But hath the Church of England appointed a forme ●rdination as it hath done for Marriage ●●l Yes such holy exhortations divine instructions ●ffectuall expressions as there cannot be better thought 〈…〉 Hym. I pray let me heare your knowledge of it 〈◊〉 As the ignorance of Scriptures is the cause of all 〈◊〉 and faction so also the ignorance of those whole● Lawes and Ordinances which the Church hath pro●●●● in many particulars makes many have a worse opi●●●● of the government of the Church then otherwise ●ould possibly have ●●nnot but admire the solemne grave and honou●●orme of Matrimony the Scriptures for instru●●●●●ppointed to be read the holy exhortations and ad●●ons the union pronounced in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost the concluding the ordnance with pertinent blessings I say I cannot chose but mor● and more admire it because now a many of unadw●sed Ministers use unworthy and unwarrantable forme thereby couzening and cheating those they pretend t●● Marry for except the words are used in the manner appointed by the Law the Law knowes them not marrie● but the Wife in the sence of the Law is accounted a who● and the Children Bastards and the next of kinne will 〈◊〉 cover all personall estate and inheritance And the re●son is cleare because the Law knowes nor allowes of a●● other forme for Marriage but that enacted Oh woe● to such unwise Ministers that have done this wrong a● injury to the Children unborne by seducing their ignor●●●● Parents But to give you satisfaction in that you desire concer●ing Ordination of Ministers the Church hath appoint●● a very good rule and forme for it many pithy and apt pr●●ers unto God for His blessiing many Scriptures to bee r●●● agreeing to the Ordinance As Saint Pauls counsell to ●mothy and the words and gesture the Apostles used wh●● they ordained Stephen and the rest Acts 6. as also 〈◊〉 words of our Lord Iohn 10. And diverse questions are made to them that are to 〈◊〉 ordained such as these are you assured or doe you bele●● you are inwardly moved by the Holy Ghost to take up●● you this office and ministration to serve God for the p●moting his glory and the edifying his people And he ●●swers I beleeve so Also hee is askt doe you thinke you are truly called ●●cording to the will of our Lord Iesus Christ doe 〈◊〉 unfainedly beleeve all the Canonicall Scriptures of 〈◊〉 ●ld and New Testament and will you apply your selfe to ●udy read and preach the same they promise they will 〈◊〉 And further also to lay aside the studies of the World 〈◊〉 the flesh to endeavour by good life and holy exam●e to edifie Christs flock These and many more are the ●questions and exhortations then doth the Minister ordain●ng speake to the whole Congregation declaring to them ●e Ordination and there being no cause shewed against ●y the people hee proceeds in prayer and layes on his ●d upon him thereby giving him power to preach and ●ficiate in all other administrations Hym. This forme is very good and seems to mee warran●e but what rule hath the Church of England for ordination ●other Officers Sil. For such as have the place of ruling Elders com●only called Church-wardens and for such as receive and ●tribute to the necessity of the poore commonly called ●erseers the Minister and Congregation doe choose ●●●m together by most voyces according to Act of Par●●●ment Hym. But how are the people or Congregation ordered Silvanus All Parishes or Congregations are ●orporated and Ordayned by Act of Parliament ●e law gives power to the Minister and Church●ficers to examine and see that obedience by yeelded to 〈◊〉 such things as concerne the time the place the manner 〈◊〉 matter of Gods worship in publick and accordingly ●acquit them if innocent or to indite or present them ●uiltie Anno 1. Edw. 6. Anno 1. Eliz. 2. Hym. I pray Sir resolve mee in my second question how a ●e may be commanded for it seemes to me the Apostles doct● teacheth otherwise Galath 4.10 11. Where he saith Yee ●ve dayes and moneths and times and yeares I am afraid of of you lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vaine Sil. The Apostle being rightly understood doth not write to the Galatians against a time or times to be appointed by authority for the publick worship of God but hee teacheth against the use of such Ceremonies that the cleare and open manifestation of the Truth and substance thereof made weake beggerly and uselesse and more principally hee directly preacheth against them as some thereby and in Obedience to sought life and justification against this the Apostle concludes peremptorily to the Romans Romans 3 28. in these words Wee conclude therefore that a man is justified by faith without the workes of the Law and hee accepts none to the Galatians but affirmeth that whosoever seeks justification by the Law he is fallen from Grace Gala. 5.4 And aggravates it by reduplications as most certaine and a thing never to be questioned the holy Ghost bearing witnesse with him and therefore speakes in a phrase never to be repealed for by the workes of the Law shall no flesh be justified Gal. 2 16. Hym. What rule have you then for the time and times of Gods publick worship Sil. The first day of the week and all other dayes and times are by Ordinance of the Church appointed this hath beene the judgement of former times amongst the Fathers as Hierome Austine and Tertullian Master Frith and Master Tindall amongst the Martyrs Master Calvin and many others in the book called the Harmony of confessions