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A16170 A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist. Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628. 1598 (1598) STC 3092; ESTC S102284 61,282 90

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the_o temple_n because_o he_o offer_v incense_v but_o because_o the_o wraith_n of_o god_n have_v make_v he_o a_o leper_n the_o which_o kind_n of_o man_n by_o the_o express_a commandment_n of_o god_n may_v not_o converse_v with_o other_o and_o if_o we_o will_v receive_v the_o report_n and_o assertion_n of_o josephus_n a_o learned_a priest_n and_o historian_n of_o the_o jew_n the_o priest_n do_v not_o thrust_v he_o out_o of_o the_o temple_n but_o admonish_v he_o to_o depart_v the_o which_o he_o do_v soon_o obey_v when_o he_o see_v himself_o make_v so_o loathsome_a on_o a_o sudden_a &_o be_v astonish_v with_o the_o manifest_a wraith_n of_o god_n and_o hereunto_o the_o text_n seam_v to_o assent_v which_o say_v and_o hasty_o they_o expel_v he_o etc._n etc._n but_o he_o himself_o also_o make_v haste_n to_o go_v out_o because_o he_o have_v present_o feel_v the_o plague_n or_o strike_v of_o god_n but_o that_o he_o be_v as_o some_o seem_v to_o say_v depose_v of_o his_o kingdom_n therefore_o 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forsake_v his_o sea_n yea_o or_o revoke_v his_o choleric_a censure_n that_o he_o will_v see_v all_o germany_n and_o italy_n sabel_n see_v sabel_n almost_o utter_o destroy_v by_o civil_a war_n his_o favourer_n in_o germany_n break_v in_o seven_o bloody_a battle_n his_o two_o idol_n emperor_n slay_v and_o all_o the_o force_n of_o his_o italian_a staff_n &_o stay_n the_o mighty_a countess_n mawde_z utter_o defayted_a great_a part_n of_o the_o citizen_n of_o rome_n consume_v by_o three_o year_n siege_n the_o burgo_n san_n pietro_n twice_o sack_v and_o deface_v all_o the_o house_n of_o the_o corsy_n the_o noble_a citizen_n of_o rome_n and_o his_o fast_o friend_n race_v to_o the_o ground_n the_o miracle_n of_o the_o world_n the_o septisolium_n take_v and_o deform_v his_o nephew_n take_v prisoner_n the_o city_n of_o rome_n twice_o set_v on_o fire_n by_o suiscardo_n who_o be_v excommunicate_v &_o now_o reconcile_v he_o have_v procure_v to_o come_v to_o discharge_v he_o out_o of_o the_o 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many_o and_o extreme_a mischief_n and_o misery_n do_v he_o not_o blush_v to_o remember_v how_o the_o noble_a quintus_n metellus_n a_o pagane_n be_v wrongful_o forbididden_a fire_n and_o water_n by_o apulieus_fw-la the_o tribune_n of_o the_o commonalty_n to_o be_v revenge_v on_o meitellus_n for_o put_v he_o out_o of_o the_o senate_n for_o his_o lewd_a life_n choose_v rather_o willing_o to_o go_v into_o bannishment_n have_v the_o strong_a faction_n then_o that_o any_o tumult_n shall_v be_v stir_v up_o in_o the_o city_n for_o he_o again_o how_o many_o of_o his_o predecessor_n do_v for_o righteousness_n sake_n suffer_v banishment_n imprisonment_n yea_o and_o painful_a death_n when_o they_o may_v have_v shroud_v and_o save_v themselves_o we_o have_v already_o show_v by_o many_o example_n and_o also_o marcellinus_n a_o pagane_n do_v report_n that_o constantius_n the_o emperor_n can_v hardly_o in_o the_o dead_a time_n of_o the_o night_n carry_v liberius_n out_o of_o the_o city_n of_o rome_n with_o great_a difficulty_n for_o the_o good_a will_n of_o the_o people_n that_o burn_v in_o his_o love_n so_o that_o it_o be_v likely_a that_o if_o the_o bishop_n will_v with_o force_n have_v resist_v he_o will_v have_v be_v to_o hot_a and_o to_o heavy_a for_o the_o emperor_n to_o carry_v away_o but_o neither_o god_n nor_o devil_n have_v yet_o reveel_v unto_o the_o bishop_n of_o rome_n this_o new_a dignity_n of_o gregory_n sigon_n see_v platina_n and_o sigon_n that_o they_o can_v by_o apostolical_a power_n bind_v all_o man_n not_o only_o in_o spirit_n but_o also_o in_o body_n and_o all_o the_o good_n of_o fortune_n that_o they_o may_v depose_v emperorus_n for_o their_o pride_n &_o contumacy_n in_o not_o obey_v of_o their_o commandment_n as_o gregory_n do_v henry_n and_o give_v the_o empire_n unto_o another_o for_o his_o humility_n and_o obedience_n as_o gregory_n do_v to_o rodulph_n because_o he_o have_v promise_v to_o give_v his_o son_n pledge_n for_o assurance_n that_o he_o will_v 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can_v the_o church_n of_o christ_n be_v so_o much_o endamage_v thereby_o as_o with_o thirty_o year_n bloody_a war_n in_o all_o part_n of_o germany_n and_o italy_n through_o the_o trouble_n whereof_o neither_o the_o pope_n nor_o other_o bishop_n can_v employ_v their_o function_n but_o let_v this_o pass_n philippe_n philippe_n the_o next_o deposition_n be_v of_o philip_n the_o emperor_n for_o invade_a peter_n patrimony_n before_o he_o be_v emperor_n and_o while_o he_o be_v duke_n of_o tuscan_a but_o because_o some_o will_v say_v he_o be_v never_o emperor_n because_o through_o the_o pope_n menace_n but_o five_o of_o the_o elector_n have_v choose_v he_o we_o will_v let_v he_o pass_v and_o come_v unto_o otho_n otho_n otho_n the_o duke_n of_o saxon_n who_o two_o of_o the_o elector_n afterward_o at_o the_o great_a instance_n of_o the_o pope_n have_v choose_v emperor_n and_o who_o he_o almost_o immediate_o after_o he_o have_v crown_v he_o depose_v because_o he_o invade_v the_o land_n of_o his_o pupil_n and_o vassal_n the_o king_n of_o naples_n do_v this_o come_v of_o charity_n or_o of_o a_o private_a quarrel_n it_o be_v apparent_a that_o the_o pope_n use_v not_o nor_o now_o do_v to_o censure_v any_o prince_n for_o enuade_v of_o his_o neighbour_n unless_o he_o be_v a_o vassal_n or_o privilege_a prince_n of_o he_o and_o then_o to_o make_v up_o the_o good_a three_o come_v on_o a_o row_n fredelicke_fw-mi the_o second_o emperor_n frederick_n frederick_n and_o also_o king_n of_o naples_n for_o invest_v of_o bishop_n in_o naples_n and_o levy_v money_n of_o the_o clergy_n and_o after_o the_o controversy_n be_v end_v again_o because_o he_o do_v not_o perform_v his_o vow_n to_o go_v into_o the_o holy_a land_n and_o that_o also_o satisfy_v for_o make_v war_n against_o the_o rebellious_a lombarde_n or_o to_o make_v the_o very_o worst_a of_o it_o for_o practise_v with_o the_o frangipane_n and_o other_o roman_n to_o revolt_v from_o the_o pope_n who_o he_o disinherit_v do_v secret_o aid_v his_o rebel_n in_o lombardy_n and_o do_v not_o flesh_n and_o blood_n and_o private_a revenge_n reign_n in_o all_o these_o action_n be_v any_o of_o these_o cause_n so_o weighty_a that_o for_o they_o shall_v be_v raise_v up_o the_o pernicious_a faction_n of_o guelse_n and_o ghibbelines_n to_o set_v at_o enmity_n for_o ever_o not_o only_o every_o prince_n province_n and_z city_n of_o italy_n but_o also_o every_o name_n and_o family_n for_o to_o embrace_v their_o murder_a sword_n the_o last_o depose_v emperor_n be_v lewes_n the_o four_o navel_n lewes_n see_v platina_n and_o navel_n because_o he_o intermedle_v in_o italy_n before_o the_o pope_n have_v crown_v he_o a_o usual_a thing_n and_o that_o which_o be_v the_o very_a cause_n indeed_o because_o he_o open_o profess_v himself_o a_o favourer_n of_o the_o ghibbelines_n and_o namely_o the_o vicecount_v who_o the_o pope_n deadly_o hate_v and_o have_v excommunicate_v for_o take_v arm_n against_o the_o guelse_n and_o put_v the_o florentine_n and_o the_o neopolitanes_n and_o the_o other_o guelse_n in_o fear_n lest_o he_o will_v say_v platina_n ex●ct_v of_o they_o jura_n imperia●a_v the_o right_n belong_v to_o the_o empire_n and_o who_o see_v not_o here_o partiality_n and_o not_o charity_n moreover_o peter_n peter_n peter_n the_o king_n of_o arragon_n be_v depose_v and_o his_o kingdom_n of_o arragon_n give_v unto_o charles_n of_o valois_n the_o french_a king_n brother_n because_o he_o have_v receive_v the_o sicilian_n revolt_a from_o the_o tyranny_n of_o charles_n the_o duke_n of_o anjou_n who_o the_o pope_n have_v place_v prince_n there_o and_o do_v not_o also_o smell_v of_o private_a revenge_n be_v this_o the_o common_a good_a that_o pighius_fw-la bear_v we_o in_o hand_n the_o church_n of_o christ_n reap_v by_o this_o prerogative_n of_o the_o pope_n that_o he_o do_v thereby_o revenge_v the_o private_a
in_o all_o thing_n touch_v the_o royalty_n of_o the_o same_o crown_n shall_v be_v submit_v to_o the_o sea_n of_o rome_n we_o do_v also_o read_v there_o that_o all_o the_o baron_n and_o all_o the_o byshoppes_n present_a and_o the_o deputy_n of_o those_o which_o be_v absent_a be_v ask_v every_o man_n several_o say_v that_o therein_o they_o will_v to_o their_o uttermost_a stand_n with_o the_o king_n against_o the_o pope_n so_o zealous_a be_v all_o good_a englishman_n in_o those_o day_n of_o the_o ancient_a honour_n and_o liberty_n of_o their_o country_n and_o the_o sovereignty_n of_o their_o king_n moreover_o saint_n germanye_n in_o the_o thirty-nine_o chapter_n of_o the_o second_o book_n entreat_v how_o ecclesiastical_a person_n may_v dispose_v of_o their_o good_n he_o utter_o reject_v the_o canon_n law_n therein_o and_o show_v what_o they_o may_v do_v by_o the_o law_n of_o this_o realm_n and_o at_o the_o length_n he_o say_v thus_o and_o moreover_o a_o parson_n of_o a_o church_n vicar_n &_o chauntery_a priest_n or_o such_o other_o all_o such_o good_n as_o they_o have_v by_o reason_n of_o the_o parsonage_n vicarage_n or_o chauntery_a as_o that_o they_o have_v by_o reason_n of_o their_o own_o person_n they_o may_v lawful_o give_v and_o bequ_v after_o the_o common_a law_n and_o if_o they_o dispose_v part_n among_o their_o parishioner_n and_o part_n to_o the_o build_n of_o church_n or_o give_v part_n to_o the_o ordinary_a or_o to_o poor_a man_n or_o in_o any_o such_o manner_n as_o be_v appoint_v by_o the_o law_n of_o the_o church_n they_o offend_v not_o therein_o unless_o they_o think_v themselves_o bind_v thereunto_o by_o duty_n &_o authority_n of_o the_o law_n of_o the_o church_n not_o regard_v the_o king_n law_n for_o if_o they_o do_v so_o it_o seem_v they_o resist_v the_o ordinance_n of_o god_n which_o have_v give_v power_n to_o prince_n to_o make_v law_n but_o whereas_o the_o pope_n have_v sovereignty_n in_o temporal_a thing_n as_o he_o have_v in_o spiritual_a thing_n there_o some_o say_v that_o the_o good_n of_o priest_n must_v in_o conscience_n be_v dispose_v as_o it_o be_v contain_v in_o the_o same_o sum_n but_o it_o hold_v not_o in_o this_o realm_n for_o the_o good_n of_o spiritual_a man_n be_v temporal_a in_o what_o manner_n soever_o they_o come_v to_o they_o and_o must_v be_v order_v by_o the_o temporal_a law_n as_o the_o good_n of_o temporal_a man_n must_v be_v thus_o far_o saint_n germany_n then_o may_v i_o infer_v if_o that_o the_o pope_n the_o counsel_n and_o thou_o convocation_n can_v not_o make_v a_o law_n touch_v the_o good_n of_o the_o spirituallty_n within_o this_o realm_n and_o that_o those_o which_o do_v dispose_v of_o their_o good_n according_a to_o such_o a_o canon_n do_v sin_n although_o it_o do_v agree_v with_o the_o law_n of_o this_o realm_n if_o they_o do_v it_o as_o bind_v by_o that_o canon_n shall_v we_o think_v that_o the_o pope_n the_o council_n or_o the_o convocation_n can_v give_v away_o the_o good_n and_o land_n of_o temporal_a man_n within_o this_o realm_n yea_o and_o the_o crown_n and_o kingdom_n and_o that_o they_o do_v not_o sin_v mortal_o that_o do_v obey_v any_o such_o decree_n and_o what_o account_n be_v to_o be_v make_v of_o the_o pope_n dispensation_n in_o temporal_a cause_n the_o same_o learned_a author_n plain_o declare_v in_o the_o xli_o chapter_n of_o the_o second_o book_n where_o he_o say_v that_o although_o by_o the_o canon_n law_n every_o man_n may_v lawful_o kill_v a_o assasin_n such_o a_o fellow_n as_o will_v at_o every_o man_n request_n kill_v any_o man_n for_o money_n yet_o he_o affirm_v it_o be_v altogether_o unlawful_a in_o this_o land_n and_o that_o notwithstanding_o the_o pope_n dispensation_n and_o pardon_n he_o that_o slay_v a_o assasin_n be_v a_o felon_n and_o so_o ought_v to_o be_v punish_v as_o a_o felon_n moreover_o in_o his_o xliiii_o chapter_n he_o do_v conctant_o hold_v that_o the_o canon_n sum_n that_o do_v determine_v all_o scruple_n of_o conscience_n according_a to_o the_o canon_n law_n do_v rather_o hurt_v english_a man_n conscience_n then_o give_v they_o light_n and_o that_o there_o be_v many_o case_n in_o they_o rule_v according_a to_o the_o canon_n law_n that_o be_v not_o to_o be_v observe_v in_o this_o realm_n neither_o in_o law_n nor_o conscience_n and_o in_o xlii_o chapter_n that_o although_o many_o say_n in_o the_o same_o sum_n do_v agree_v with_o the_o law_n of_o this_o realm_n yet_o they_o be_v to_o be_v observe_v by_o the_o authority_n of_o the_o law_n of_o this_o realm_n and_o not_o by_o the_o authority_n allege_v by_o they_o final_o in_o the_o xxix_o chapter_n of_o the_o same_o book_n he_o do_v flat_o over-rule_v our_o present_a case_n whereas_o by_o the_o canon_n law_n a_o heretic_n have_v ipso_fw-la facto_fw-la lose_v all_o his_o good_n and_o therefore_o can_v make_v no_o execution_n he_o affirm_v that_o it_o hold_v and_o bind_v not_o here_o for_o if_o he_o do_v abjure_v he_o have_v forfeit_v no_o good_n but_o if_o he_o be_v convict_v of_o heresy_n and_o deliver_v to_o lay_v man_n hand_n he_o have_v forfeit_v all_o his_o good_n that_o he_o have_v at_o that_o time_n that_o he_o be_v deliver_v unto_o they_o but_o not_o his_o land_n before_o that_o he_o be_v put_v to_o death_n to_o this_o the_o doctor_n answer_v i_o think_v that_o as_o it_o only_o belong_v unto_o the_o church_n to_o determine_v heresy_n that_o so_o it_o belong_v unto_o the_o church_n what_o punishment_n he_o shall_v have_v for_o his_o heresy_n except_o death_n which_o they_o can_v not_o be_v judge_n in_o but_o if_o the_o church_n decree_n that_o therefore_o he_o shall_v forfeit_v his_o good_n i_o think_v that_o they_o be_v forfeit_v by_o that_o decree_n unto_o this_o objection_n he_o thus_o answer_v under_o the_o name_n of_o student_n nay_o very_o for_o they_o be_v temporal_a thing_n and_o belong_v to_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o king_n court_n and_o i_o think_v that_o the_o ordinary_n may_v have_v set_v no_o fine_a upon_o one_o impeach_v of_o heresy_n until_o it_o be_v ordain_v by_o the_o statute_n of_o henry_n the_o four_o that_o he_o may_v set_v a_o fine_a if_o he_o see_v cause_n and_o that_o the_o king_n shall_v have_v that_o fine_a if_o this_o be_v the_o universal_a belief_n of_o all_o good_a englishman_n in_o the_o time_n when_o the_o pope_n authority_n most_o flourish_v here_o and_o before_o this_o controversy_n arise_v that_o neither_o the_o pope_n nor_o counsel_n nor_o church_n have_v authority_n to_o ordain_v any_o temporal_a punishment_n for_o heresy_n can_v he_o be_v account_v a_o true_a englishman_n that_o do_v hold_v that_o the_o pope_n can_v deprive_v her_o majesty_n of_o her_o crown_n and_o dignity_n for_o a_o pretence_n of_o heresy_n laterane_n of_o the_o counsel_n of_o laterane_n or_o that_o the_o canon_n make_v in_o the_o counsel_n hold_v at_o laterane_n do_v bind_v we_o here_o in_o england_n but_o because_o we_o understand_v that_o the_o great_a scruple_n in_o conscience_n of_o our_o catholic_n roman_a be_v ground_v upon_o this_o canon_n we_o will_v make_v a_o particular_a treatise_n thereof_o and_o to_o uncomber_v and_o discharge_v their_o conscience_n show_v first_o that_o it_o be_v no_o determination_n of_o faith_n that_o the_o pope_n may_v depose_v prince_n and_o second_o that_o it_o do_v not_o bind_v in_o this_o realm_n not_o only_o because_o as_o i_o have_v prove_v before_o the_o church_n can_v make_v no_o decree_n of_o temporality_n but_o also_o because_o by_o the_o very_a canon_n law_n it_o neither_o be_v nor_o ever_o be_v in_o force_n within_o this_o realm_n and_o final_o neither_o orderly_a execute_v according_a to_o the_o order_n of_o the_o canon_n and_o first_o because_o i_o shall_v have_v occasion_n to_o examine_v every_o word_n of_o one_o member_n thereof_o i_o will_v set_v it_o down_o verbatim_o word_n for_o word_n ca._n 33●_n si_fw-mi ver●_n dominus_fw-la temporalis_fw-la requisitus_fw-la &_o admonitus_fw-la ab_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la terram_fw-la svam_fw-la purgare_fw-la neglexerit_fw-la ab_fw-la hac_fw-la haeretica_fw-la foeditate_fw-la per_fw-la metropolitanum_n &_o comprovinciale_n episcapo_n excommunicationis_fw-la vinculo_fw-la innodetur_fw-la etsi_fw-la satisfacer●_n contempserit_fw-la intra_fw-la annum_fw-la significetur_fw-la hoc_fw-la summo_fw-la pontifici_fw-la romano_n ut_fw-la extunc_fw-la ipse_fw-la vasallos_fw-la ab_fw-la eius_fw-la fidelitate_fw-la denuntiet_fw-la absolutos_fw-la &_o terram_fw-la exponat_fw-la catholicis_fw-la occupandam_fw-la qui_fw-la cam_fw-la exterminatis_fw-la haereticis_fw-la sine_fw-la contradictone_n possideant_fw-la &_o in_o fidei_fw-la puritate_fw-la conseruent_fw-la ita_fw-la quod_fw-la bona_fw-la huiusmodi_fw-la damnatorum_fw-la si_fw-la laici_fw-la fuerint_fw-la confiscentur_fw-la si_fw-la vero_fw-la clereci_fw-la applicentur_fw-la ecclesijs_fw-la a_o quibus_fw-la stipendia_fw-la per_fw-la ceperint_fw-la which_o may_v thus_o be_v english_v if_o the_o temporal_a lord_n be_v request_v