Scriptures they give us notice of some who in the latter daies should perish in the gainsaying of Corah as well as of some who should be led with the errour of Balaam for reward See S. Judes Epist vers 11. Look well about you and take heed how you strike an Angel else may chance to stand against you whilest you ride on the beast and be as loath to loose the rewards of your good Masters and Dames as was Balaam to loose the rewards of the King of Moab For the Pope may be Antichrist though Bishops be upheld they were never limbs of that man of Sinne as Bishops but as Popish whilest they swore subjection unto him whilest they defended him whilest they worshipped him above all that is called God and extorted this homage from others But shall they therefore which defie him resist trample upon him spend their lives and labours in opposing of him be necessarily still in the same condition because they are Bishops a foolish argument and he were a senceles man that should subscribe it But shall I tell you there were many Kings and Princes that gave their strength and power to the Beast but are now revolted from him are they not therefore Kings and Princes still Yes sure their calling is not lost they are Kings and Princes still although not Antichristian Kings and Princes England was once termed the Popes Asse but hath long since shaked off that yoak and abolished the Popes tyranny is it not therefore England still Or to speak of what was late The Princes Peers and Magistrates of England in Queen Maries daies were shoulders and armes of Antichrist their calling is still the same and must still be retained notwithstanding then they went the wrong way in it The like is to be said of Bishops in regard of their order which in it selfe is as firm strong and sound as ever notwithstanding what you or any man else may urge to the contrary If you were not a man of faction but would deale fairly in this busines you should not plead for parity or goe about to destroy the government of Gods Church by Bishops but labour to retain the Primitive form which consistteth not in the abolishing of Bishops and striving to make all Pastours equall but in the restoring of Presbyteries by joyning with the Bishops deserving honest and able * See for this Mr. Thorndikes book of the primitive Government of Churches Presbyters not Lay-elders but learned Ministers In a word there is one thing more which before I goe further must be rememhred For you tell us that in the latter end of Queene Elizabeths raigne when she began to be sickly and not like to live long then Doctour Bancroft Lord Bishop of London knowing that King James was to succeed her and fearing that his Majesty would reforme things amisse in the publike worship and service of God and in the Government of the Church did License a Booke written by a Jesuite that he kept in his house wherein it was written that it was in the Popes power as a gift appropriate to Saint Peters chaire to depose the Kings of England and to give authority to the People to elect choose and set up another Whereto I answer that in this you doe but cast durt in the face of the dead For that which you here mention is but what was objected in the Conference at Hampton Court by Doctour Reynolds and openly proved then in presence of his Majesty which you speak of to be but a false aspersion by which the Bishop was injured and standered Wherefore you doe ill to revive it now for the incensing of the people to the more malice who are already too eager to inveigh against Bishops For I verily thinke that never since the times of Christ and his Apostles were Bishops in such hatred nor had in such contempt as now I wonder that they goe not about likewise to cry down a standing Ministrie for personall offenders may as well countenance the abolishing of the one as of the other And indeed it is in a manner come even to that too amongst some furious and fanaticke spitits But the God of Heaven put a right end to these busie stirrs lest all at the last be brought to ruine Let the fiercenesse of those Opposites who cry Downe with them downe with them even to the ground turn to thy praise ô blessed Lord yea the fiercenesse of them who are thus furious doe thou restrain and bring honour to thy name out of this dishonour and good to thy Church out of this evill It is thine owne cause ô God arise therefore and defend it in spight of all that shall oppose it And thus I am come almost to the end of your dowty Dialogue a little more will bring me to it DIALOGUE Gent. There was a little Booke written of late and dedicated to the Mouse of Parliament that had most of these things in it that you have spoken of concerning the Service-booke and the Bishops Min. There was so but the Authour thereof is much grieved every time that he doth thinke upon it because it was dispersed without his consent and printed false by putting in and leaving out of words so as it was not fit to be presented to the House of Parliament ANSWER Great pitty sure to see so worthy a worke defaced especially being intended for the view of the high Court of Parliament But grieve not at it though you sometimes chance to thinke upon it for you make amends for all in this most learned and through-paced Dialogue which is instar omnium and a great deale fitter for the Parliament then that little Booke you speake of Aquila non capit Muscas Parliaments meddle with great matters Let little Bookes therefore goe and thinke your selfe better with this great volume of almost twenty leaves in Quarto which the Parliament when it hath nothing else to doe will read and relish as well as it can This is enough to comfort you you may by no meanes desire more except you had written to better purpose DIALOGUE Gent. It made mention of Judgements c. ANSWER Here you come in with a diâ—course out of your little Booke of some fearefull Judgements shewed on Churches by Thunder and Lightning in Service time and you mention chiefly two the one on the Parish Church of Whitcomb in Devonshire upon the 21 day of October 1638. the other on the Parish Church of Anthony in Cornwell upon Whitsunday 1640. when the people were kneeling at the Communion which fell upon those places to shew that God is not pleased but much offended with the publike Worship and Service which is prescribed unto his holy Majesty in our Service-booke Thus saith your Dialogue pag. 32. 35. and 37. But what saith the Apostle O how unsearchable are Gods Judgements and his wayes past finding out And verily we thank God our Service booke is clearely proved to be of another nature then to offend the diyine
arrayed for so the Psalmist mentions in Psal 132.9 Hereto again agrees our worthy Hooker Eccl. Polit. lib. 5. pag. 61. namely That it suteth so fitly with that lightsome affection of joy wherein God delighteth when his Saints praise him and so lively resembleth the glory of the Saints in Heaven together with the beauty wherein Angels have appeared unto Men that they which are to appeare for men in presence of God as Angels if they were lest unto their own choice and would choose any could not easily devise a garment of more decency for such a service Psal 149.2 Rev. 15.6 Mar. 16 5. Thus then we see what little cause there is for any one to scruple eryout or raile against the solemne wearing of this Vestment For mine own part I shall better esteem it then ever yet yea though it should chance to be quite put down my thoughts will be ever the same in the mean time accounting them no other then turbulent troublers of the Churches quiet who shall still be obstinate and upon no termes receive satisfaction but perversely provide to advance puritanicall humours which being once predominant are like a naked sword sharp and unsheathed in a mad mans hands But from such as these Good Lord deliver us A further addition concerning a place in the XII Chapter of Tobie at the IX verse where it is written that Almes doe save from death and purge away all sinne SOme say it is an Hyperbole and ought so be taken least otherwise we detract from the Blood of Christ to whom it belongeth to free from Sin and Death Others answer thus that we must have recourse to the rule because the doctrine of the Law without Christ profiteth nothing Placent igitur Eleemosynae Deo quae sequuntur reconciliationem seu justificationem non quae praecedunt that is Almes please God which follow Reconciliation or Justification not which goe before it This thus in the book of the Concord of the Prince Electours in Germany and of those Divines which embraced the Augustane Confession Wherein is further added that Almes are the exercises of faith which receives Remission of sinnes which overcometh Death whilest it exerciseth it selfe more and more and in those exercises gaines forces There it is also written that the whole speech of Tobie being lookt into sheweth that Faith is required to go before Almes All the dayes of thy life have God in thy minde And again Alwayes blesse God and desire of him that be would direct thy wayes Now this is properly of such a ones Faith of which we speake which perceiveth that it hath God appeased by reason of his mercy and is willing to be justified of God sanctified and ruled by him Thus farre out of that booke in the answer to the Papists who cite certain places against us to prove that Faith doth not justifie and that we deserve Remission of sinnes and grace by our Works Doctor Fulke against the Rhemish Testament denieth these words to be in the Greek text of Tobie But there is a place much like it in Dan. 4 24. See also Prov. 15.27 Prov. 16.6 Luk. 11.41 and then heare an answer out of Bishop Morton in his Protestant appeale lib. 3. cap. 9. § 1. First saith he in these places which have been objected there is only mention made of Almes can the Romanists say that Almes alone have this force of redeeming sinne If they should then might they readily be confuted by their owne Jesuite Maldonate shewing from St. Austine that no man will say that giving of Almes can availe for purgation of sinne without faith in him Christ who is the authour of salvation And this doctrine the Protestants they know doe not mislike Secondly the question is How then can Almes be said to purge sinne Whereunto their foresaid Jesuite answereth that it is impossible for Almes to cleanse the soule from sinne but to dispose it Which exposition is that which we may easily admit in his true sence for God disposeth man unto faith and charity and then is man disposed and qualified to receive Remission as in the margent he noteth Thirdly their Bishop Jansenius and Cardinall Bellarmine examining the same text report the excellent judgement of Basil who taught that Almes of themselves cannot expiate sinne but the primordiall cause is the mercy of God wberehy men have Redemption in all other actions Well then without any further searching into Authours thus I conclude that Almes are the fruits and exercises of faith and well pleasing unto God Heb. 13.16 And for any one to make an outward shew of Religion and to talke much of Faith but practise no deeds of Charity is to be like a sounding Brasse and tinckling Cymball and to be dead still in sinnes and trespasses not bringing forth fruits meet for Repentance 1 Cor. 13. Mat. 3.8 Psal 1. v. 1 2 3. Blessed therefore is the man that hath not walked in the councell of the ungodly nor stand in the way of sinners and hath not sit in the seat of the scornfull But his delight is in the Law of the Lord and is his Law doth he exercise himselfe day and night For he shall bee like a tree planted by the waters side which will bring forth ber fruit in due season In a word This is a true saying and these things I will thou shouldest affirme that they which have beleeved God might be carefull to shew forth good workes Tit. 3.8 And then at the 14 verse Let ours also learne to shew forth good workes for necessary uses that they be not unfruitfull Soli Deo gloria A further and finall Addition concerning Episcopacie to prove that it is of Divine right because instituted by Christ and his Apostles which this Dialogue-writer granteth not to be till 334. yeares after Christ together with a Corollary concerning a new Edition of the said writers Booke THe beginning of Imparity among the Ministers of the New Testament was first laid by our Saviour Christ and upon his ground as Churches were planted the Apostles raised the fabricke of that government which in all parts of the Church they left established before such time as they left the world Onely Diotrephes maliciously prated against them and scorned to acknowledge the transcendent power of their Apostolicall jurisdiction Whereupon we read in the third Epistle which was written by S. Iohn that when the said Apostle wrote unto the Church this great Stickler proudly stood out against him For I wrote unto the Church saith he but Diotrephes which loveth to have the preheminence among them receiveth us not Wherefore if I come I will call to your remembrance his deeas which he doth pratling against us with malitious words and not therewith content neither he himselfe receiveth the Brethren but forbiddeth them that would and thrusteth them out of the Church But Diotrephes might have seen a manifest imparity in our Saviours owne choyce even at the first when he chose twelve Apostles and made them
A CONFVTATION OF M. Lewes Hewes HIS DIALOGVE OR AN ANSWER to a DIALOGVE or Conference betweene a Country Gentleman and a Minister of Gods Word about the Booke of COMMON PRAYER Set forth for the Satisfying of those who clamour against the said Booke and maliciously revile them that are serious in the use thereof Whereunto is annexed a Satisfactory Discourse concerning EPISCOPACY and the SVRPLISSE Published by Authority LONDON Printed for I. M. at the George in Fleestreet neere Saint Dunstans Church 1641. M. LEWES HEWES His DIALOGVE ANSVVERED Or An Answer to a Dialogue or Conference betweene a Country Gentleman and a Minister of Gods Word about the Booke of COMMON PRAYER Set forth for the Satisfying of those who clamour against the said Booke and maliciously revile them that are serious in the use thereof Whereunto is annexed a Satisfactory Discourse concerning EPISCOPACY and the SVRPLISSE Published by Authority LONDON Printed for I. M. at the George in Fleestreet neere Saint Dunstans Church 1641. AN ANSWER TO A Dialogue or Conference BETWEENE A Countrey GENTLEMAN AND A MINISTER of GODS Word About the Book of Common PRAYER The DIALOGUE Gent. I Am very glad that I have met with you and did long to speake with you that you might satisfie mee in some things concerning the Booke of Common Prayer therefore I pray you tell mee truly as I hope you will is there any thing in it contrary to Gods Word Min. Yes verily it is full of Popish errours and doth appoint horrible blasphemies and lying fables to bee read to the people in stead of Gods holy Word and hath caused the Church of England to groane under the abominations of the Church of Rome even from the infancie of it in Queene Elizabeths time untill this houre and now there is great hope that a time of refreshing and deliverance is at hand through the blessing of God on this Parliament The ANSVVER If you were not as great a friend to the Brownists as you are an enemie to the Papists you would not thus cast dust in the face of the Church of England and blemish the pietie of those who notwithstanding they died in defence of the truth against Poperie did neverthelesse embrace the Booke of Common Prayer using it to their great comfort commending it to others and sometimes hugging it even in the very flames as in Master Foxes Acts and Monuments may be seene DIALOGUE Gent. I never heard any blasphemy or lying fable read in the Church Minist I thinke so because it may be that you were never in the Church on those dayes wherein they are appointed to bee read Gent. Upon what dayes are they appointed to be read Minist On the fourth of October in the forenoone it appointeth an horrible blasphemy to be read for the first Lesson out of the 12. of Tobie and the 9. verse where it is written that Almes doe save from Death and purge away all sinne which is a maine ground of Poperie and an horrible blasphemie against Christ and his blood that clenseth us from all sin 1 Ioh. 1.7 Also in the 15. verse of that Chapter it is written that there are seven Angels that doe present our prayers which is another horrible blasphemy against Christ who onely doth present our prayers Rev. 8.3,4 Gent. These are horrible blasphemies indeed ANSVVER I hope if you be a Minister as you say you are you cannot but know that those Bookes which are not in the number of the Canonicall Bookes of Scripture are not appointed to be read as the other are For our Church though it be otherwise in the Church of Rome doth not apply them to establish any doctrine as in her sixth Article of Religion she hath proclaimed They are not allowed to thwart any place of holy Scripture but at the best to informe manners and not to confirme faith For though they be in many things clear and correspondent to the holy Scriptures yet this makes them not to be of the same Canonicall authoritie All that S. Hierom saith is this viz. that they be Canonici ad informandos mores non ad confirmandam fidem And S. Austin thus Aug. De Civit. Dei lib. c. 23. Let us saith he omit the Scriptures that are called Apocripha because the old Fathers of whom we had the Scriptures knew not the authors of those workes wherein though there be some trâ—ths yet their multitude of falshoods makes them of no Canonicall Authoritie where by saying Let us omit the Scriptures that are called Apocripha he meanes that they should not bee used for the proving of any Doctrine which cannot bee proved out of the other Scriptures which are the undoubted Word of God Nor bee they but of use likewise for matter of Storie especilly the Bookes of the Machabees which neverthelesse are not to teach a man either to sacrifice for the dead or to kill himselfe The direction therefore which King Iames gave the Clergy in his Conference with them at Hampton Court is altogether a full answer namely that wherein there was any errour hee would not have them read at all wâ— h saying of his must needs be enough to stop this quarrellers mouth and tell him that he makes a stirre without a cause not caring to disturbe the peace of his holy mother which how he can be able to answer let him judge by that which Christ hath charged him with in Cantic 2.7 And thus both by the Articles of our Church the determination of Fathers and the direction of his late Majestie of blessed memorie all moderate and quiet spirits may bee satisfied concerning these bookes Apocrypha both for their gonerall and particular DIALOGUE Gent. I pray you let me heare some of the Fables that are in it Min. On the fourth of October in the afternoone it appointeth a lying fable to be read out of the 11 of Tobie where it is written that Tobie going to the doore to meet his sonne Tobias comming from Rages did stumble and that his sonne ran unto him and laid the gall of a fish to his eyes and that the whitenesse did scale off and hee restored to his sight ANSWER To thinke that this is therefore fabulous because the gall of a fish is said to be used as a medicine for the eyes is more than a wise man will be forward to affirme Vid Llod's Treasury of health Phisitians write that dimb sighted eyes are cured by the gall of a Partridg so also by the gall of a Turtle-dove I have likewise read that the gall of a Cocke mixt with the juyce of Selandine and hony being annointed on the eyes restoreth sight The gall of a Gripe or Ramme is also used in medicine for the same purpose And if the galls of these creatures be thus precious for the eyes why may not the like vertue be in the gall of some fish I have read it of the Tench that his slime is for some things as medicinable as a salve whereupon
the Tench is commonly called the Phisitian of other fishes And although I want leisure to search further yet on the suddaine this I find That the fat of fresh river fishes molten and mingled with oyle and hony are of great excellency for the clearenesse of the eyes and if the fat of some fishes why not of some their gall I conclude therefore that more happy is hee who by his paines and industry can find out the causes of things than he who is so singular as to account all fables but his owne fancies DIALOGUE Minist On the thirtieth of September another lying fable is appointed to be read of an Angell that was sent to scale the whitenesse from his eyes and to give Sara the daughter of Raguel to his son Tobias in marriage and to bind Asmodeus an evill spirit that was in love with her and had killed seven men that had bin married unto her ANSWER You care little for method I see September else had beene before October But to let that passe and come to the matter in hand Though I thinke no man bound to beleeve any further of this which you tearme another lying fable than himselfe pleaseth yet this is certaine that the Scriptures themselves declare how the Angels are sent on Gods arrants and have sometimes appeared not onely to punish the wicked but also to do good offices for the godly as when Lot was led out of Sodom two Angels came unto him and left him not untill they had set him in safety Nor was the Poole of Bethesda but moved by an Angell after which motion hee that first stepped in was healed of whatsoever infirmitie he had The Scriptures also mention that the Angels are all ministring spirits sent forth to minister for them who shall be heires of salvation Hebr. 1.14 and that the good Angels sometimes fight against the bad Revel 12.7 and that they pitch their tents round about those that feare God Psalm 34.7 The Scriptures saith Saint Austin Aug de civit Dei â—…b 15. c. 23 plainely averre that the Angels have appeared both in visible and palpable figures Which saying of his is verified even by that already mentioned concerning the Angels which came to Lot at Sodom for Lot saw them in the likenesse of men talked with them and had tryall of the palpablenesse of their bodies even when they put forth their hands and pulled him into the house if not also when they led him out of the Citie An Angell of the Lord appeared likewise unto Gideon in the likenesse of a man with a staffe in his hand Judges 6.21 And how Manoah and his wife were instructed by an Angell concerning the birth and education of their sonne Sampson is recorded in the thirteenth chap. of the same booke of Scripture By all which it appeareth that there is no absolute necessitie that this which you mention should be therefore fabulous because an Angell was sent among them For the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is Nuncius in Latine as you know and that in English is a Messenger It comes from the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is Mitto To send and therefore the word Angell is no name of Nature but of Ministery or Office as is observed by the Fathers And as for that which is next of the evill spirit being in love with the daughter of Raguel I finde in the writings of some Authours that which I am sure is nothing against it And first of all I shall mention that which is certaine namely that some both places and persons have beene haunted by evill spirits and therefore it is not altogether improbable to think some such thing of Saras bed and Chamber The more unlikely is that the evill spirit should have liberty to kill her seven Husbands and yet wee know that the Devill hath had leave sometimes to doe the like as in that * See also Psal 78.49 example of Iobs servants and his children recorded in the first Chapter of the booke of Iob is plainely manifest But the most unlike is that this evill spirit should bee in love a thing which comes something neere to that interpretation which Lactantius gives Lact. lib. 2. cap. 15. of the Sonnes of God and the daughters of Men in Genesis the sixt the second namely that they should take them Wives have carnall action with them and by that meanes bee kept out of Heaven and cast to the Earth who thereupon became agents and officers for the devill and his angels who were fallen long before Now against this Saint Austin comes with a firme beliefe for though he seemes to yeeld rather than deny some such thing concerning Devils as I shall afterwards mention yet he firmely beleeves the contrary concerning Gods Angels And as for devills Michael Psellus affirmeth out of one Marke a great Daemonist that the watery and earthly Devils have such bodies as are nourished like spunges with attraction of humour affirming also that they have certaine genitours cast forth sperme and produce by which I think he meanes the Fairies diverse little creatures The Aegyptians say that the devils can only accompany carnally with Women and not with Men. Plutarch goeth further and saith That the Fables of the Gods signified some things that the Devils had done in the old time And there are saith Ludovicus Vives Com. in Aug. De civit Dei lib. 15. c. 23. a people at this day which glory that their discents are from the Devills who accompanied with Women in Mens shapes and with Men in Womens Whereto agreeth that which is reported of Merlin that hee was begotten of a spirit Nor is it but a generall report and averred by many either from their owne tryall or from others that are of indubitable honestie and credit as saith Saint Austin that the Sylvanes and Faunes commonly called Incubi have often injured Women desiring and acting carnally with them And that certaine Devills whom the Frenchmen call Dusies do continually practise this uncleannesse and tempt others to it is affirmed by such persons and with such confidence that it were impudence as saith the same Father to deny it See August De Civitate Dei lib. 15. cap. 23. Much more concerning this may be read in Burtons Melancholy which relations whether they be true or false is not much materiall or suppose them false yet can they make nothing against us it due regard be had to that allowance which Our Church gives to these Bookes Apocrypha DIALOGUE Minist On the first of October another lying fable is appointed to bee read how Tobie being about to send his Sonne Tobias to Rages in Media for a Wife did bid him goe and looke for a man to goe with him and that he went and found an Angell and brought him to his Father who promised to give the Angell wages and agreed with him what he should have by the day and sent him with his sonne and his dog ANSWER Had old Tobie knowne
thirtieth Canon of the same Booke or to the three and thirtieth Canon of the Councell of Laodicea which was celebrated in the yeare of our LORD GOD 364. as Iustellus writeth DIALOGUE Gent. What other errour doe you find to be in the Service-Booke Min. The interrupting of the Minister by the Clarke and the whole Congregation is a foule errour and such an error and confusion as doth much offend God and that therefore many are unwilling to come into the Church till the Service be all read ANSWER I doubt me you are none of those who will be so diligent as to reade the whole Service your pretended errours and dislikes which you here lay downe in this Dialogue are cause enough to make me think so And therefore they of your Parish had need to come betimes to Church if they meane to know your Text or heare any more than a peece of your Sermon except you doe as no few of your Sect trifle away a great deale of time in vaine repetitions and idle tautologies in some prayer of your own which our Saviour Himselfe likens to the practice of the Heathen and calls no better than much babling DIALOGUE Gent. How doe they interrupt the Minister Minist By rehearsing his words with a loud voyce and by taking words out of his mouth and by mingling their prayers with his ANSWER This may be answered out of Doctor Boys whose words be these I am occasioned saith he in this place justly to defend the peoples answering the Minister aloud in the Church The beginning of which interlocutory passages is ascribed by Platina to Damasus Bishop of Rome by Theodoret to Diodorus Bishop of Antioch by Walfridus Strabo to Saint Ambrose Bishop of Millane all which lived 1100 yeares before the Church was acquainted with any French fashions and yet Basil Epist 63. alleadgeth that the Churches of Aegypt Lybia Thebes Palestina Phoenicians Syrians Mesopotamians used it long before Socrates and Strabo writ that Ignatius a Scholler unto Christs owne Schollers is thought to be the first Author hereof If any man shall expect greater antiquity and authority we can fetch this order even from the Quire of Heaven I saw the Lord said Esay Esay 6.3 set on an high Throne the Seraphims stood upon it and one cried to another saying Holy holy holy Lord God of Hosts all the World is full of His glory Esay 6.3 Blessed spirits in praising God answer one another interchangeably though unhappie scornefull spirits unmannerly tearme this custome Tossing of Service an interrupting of the Minister a foule errour yea such an errour and confusion as doth much offend God DIALOGUE Minist The Minister when he prayeth is the mouth of the people speaking to God for them therefore they ought to bee silent till he hath done speaking and then to say Amen 1 Cor. 14.16 and not to interrupt him by rehearsing every word after him as in the confession of sinne when the Minister saith Almighty and most mercifull Father we have erred and strayed out of thy wayes like lost sheepe and in the Letany when he saith ô God the Father of Heaven have mercy upon us miserable sinners The Minister must stop and be silent till the Clarke and people have with a loud voyce rehearsed every word after him in which time it is impossible for the Minister to keep idle and by-thoughts from comming into his minde ANSWER If it be so with you that idle and by-thoughts will not be kept from comming into your mind pray to God to settle you better and bee not so rash as to measure other mens corne by your owne Bushell Saint Ambrose tells us that in his times the Church resounded againe with the responds of Men Women and Children like to the Sea with its beating waves or like to the rushing of many waters Thus in the Latine Church And in the Greeke Church Saint Basil is witnesse that the voyce of their prayers and Responds was like the noise of waters beating against the Rockes The patterne whereof seemes to be in Revel 14.2 besides what was before out of Esay 6.3 This is therefore all that I may yeeld you viz. that in every part of the service it is not requisite that it should be so For in many of the Prayers the people are to be silent and have no more to doe with an open and loud voyce than to say Amen But then again when occasion is offered I must say unto them as David did O praise our God yee people and make the voyce of his praise to bee heard Psalm 66.7 Or as it is in another Psalme Psal 95.1 O come let us sing unto the Lord let us make a joyfull noise to the Rocke of our salvation Or as in another Psal 107.31.32 ô that men would praise the Lord for his goodnesse and for his wonderfull works to the children of men Let them exalt him also in the Congregation of the people and praise him in the assembly of the Elders And in a word as for those times in which by the Apostles warrant they are to say Amen at the end of the Ministers prayer it was not without due care observed in the ancient times Saint Paul mentions it in the place alledged by you 1 Cor. 14.16 And as Saint Hierome writes it was the praise of the Primitive Church That their Amen was like a clap of thunder and their Halleluja as the roring of the Sea DIALOGUE Minist Also when hee prayeth for the King saying Lord save the King they interrupt him by mingling their prayer with his saying And mercifully heare us when we call upon thee The Minister being interrupted and put out in praying for the King doth pray for Ministers saying Indue thy Ministers with righteousnesse they doe then also interrupt him by mingling their prayers with his saying And make thy people joyfull ANSWER This is strange that you dare dally thus These Suffrages at which you kick with scorne are answerable to that prayer of David in the hundred and two and thirtieth Psalm where hee prayes for the Prince Priests and People orderly For the Prince Lord remember David For the Priests Let thy Priests be cloathed with righteousnesse For the People Let thy Saints sing with joyfulnesse So we in like manner Lord save thy King Indue thy Ministers with righteousnesse And make thy chosen people joyfull This also justifies our order in praying for the King first for the Clergie next and for the Laity last of all in our well composed Letany with which you quarrell next But had your quarrell been with the mattter of it as with the manner I should have said as worthy Hooker did What one petition is there found in the whole Letany whereof we shall ever be able at any time to say That no man living needeth the grace or benefit therein craved at Gods hands And a little before It now remaineth saith he a work the absolute perfection whereof upbraydeth with error or
doe set upon the Minster again and do accuse him saying Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother yea thou hast slandred thine own Mothers Sonne ANSWER If you were not a man of a corrupt minde you would never I feare me vent such stuffe as this do you not tremble are you not afraid to dally thus with the word of God They are likened by some you say to women scoulding and accusing one another And with whom I pray should the Minister scould or who is it that he should accuse if at any time he should chance to read thus to the people alone I hope you would shrink out and be none of his auditors for feare he should scould with you accuse you for consenting with a thief note you for a partaker with adulterers a speaker against thy brother or tell thee that thou hast slandred thine own Mothers sonne away therefore with such impious cavils and dally not thus with the word of God These scoffes are fitter for Pagans then for Christians especially if they consider how dangerous a thing it is to sport themselves with holy things Be not angry Man for I do but reprove thee and set before thee the things that thou hast done I retort with as much patience as I can no more then what your selfe hath cast abroad Others make points and you take in hand to tag them But alasse we have more much like this a little after which as I meet it shall be answered DIALOGUE Gent. I remember that in the Churching of women the Minister is called Priest tell me I pray you is that a fit name for a Minister and Preacher of the Gospel Min. No verily For we read in Gods word of no more orders of Priests but of two the order of Aaron and the order of Melchisedech Of the order of Aaron were the Leviticall Priests whose office was to offer sacrifices which together with the Sacrifices was abolished in Christ his death Of the order of Melchisedech was Christ only and shall remaine Priest for ever A third order of Priests is to be found no where but in the masse-Masse-book and in our service-Service-book The name Priest belongeth to every Christian man and woman as well as to the Minister according as it is written Revel 1.6 That Christ hath made us Kings and Priests unto God The meaning is that Christ hath made all the Elect men and women Priests to offer the sacrifices of prayse and of thankes unto God ANSWER The Minister is called Priest and why not I hope you know for you have noted it that all true Christians are called Priests and so Saint Peter as well as Saint John declareth it 1 Pet. 2.5 Revel 5.10 and therefore the Minister in particular may much more be called by that name although he offer none of those Sacrifices which were abolished by Christ nor intend the upholding of the Popish Masse with the blasphemous figments which are there else we condemn the Primitive Church of God in which this name which you here would quarrell with was of frequent use as you cannot but know if you know any thing of the ancient times The Prophet Esay doth * Chapt. 61.6 in one place say the same of Christians in generall which even Saint Peter and Saint John have written and in * Chapt. 66.21 another place declareth that God will choose some from among them to be Priests and Levites which though it be but an allusion doth denote a Priest-hood still and this to confist of an imparity as well as of old among the Jewes Besides were it so that the Minister might not be called Priest no more then any other Christian because the Scripture saith of every Christian man and woman Yee are an holy Priest-hood are made Kings and Priests unto God Then would it sollow first that none in particular should be a King And secondly that neither might any among the Jews have been a publike Priest or called by that name because the same which was said to Christians was also said to them when out of the Mount God sent them his message by his servant Moses Yee have seen saith the Lord what I did unto the Aegyptians and how I bare you on Eagles wings and brought you unto my selfe Now therefore if yee will obey my voice indeed and keep my Covenant then yee shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people for all the earth is mine And yee shall be unto me a kingdome of Priests and an holy Nation Exod. 19.4,5,6 It is also warranted by that of Saint Paul in Hebr. 7.12 where if you mark it you shall finde that Priesthood is not taken away but translated or changed onely and so also Irenaeus saith lib. 4. c. 34. And as for the testimonies out of the other Fathers they are so common as I need not mention them only let me say that you may finde the name both of Priest and Priest-hood in the writings of Ignatius that Martyr already mentioned who as you know was scholler to Saint John that wrote the Revelation This strife of words you should therefore carefully avoid it doth but disquiet unstable soules Grant then that name without quarrelling to him which the Scripture not onely gives to every true member of the Church but foretold it in some sort of even the Evangelicall Ministers in more particular where though the Prophet mentions Levites also who were properly so called in regard of their tribe yet as is probable enough he means not that therefore the name of Priest should not be used no more then that of Levite for except those Priests to which he alludeth had had their name only in respect of such Sacrifices as then were offered and to be ended at the death of Christ and not in regard also of other duties which are common to us and them which neither are nor may be abolished I see no reason to think otherwise To teach and blesse the people were the services of the Priests both before the Law and under the Law as well as now Melchisedech was a Priest before the Law and blessed Abraham to whom also Abraham paid his Tythes Gen. 14.19,20 Nor was it but said to Aaron and his sonnes under the Law That they should teach the sonnes of Israel all the Statutes which the Lord hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses Levit. 10.11 and in Malachy it stands recorded The priests lips should keep knowledge and they should seek the Law at his mouth for he is the Messenger of the Lord of hosts Malach. 2.7 and in Ezekiel They shall teach my people the difference between the holy and prophane ch 44.23 and in 6 Num. the 6 last verses The Lord spake unto Moses saying speak unto Aaron and to his sonnes saying On this wise yee shall blesse the children of Israel saying unto them The Lord blesse thee and keep thee The Lord make his face shine upon thee and be gratious unto the The Lord lift
be understood of those who be Adulti or men grown who have lost and forfeited their Baptismall Regeneration by actuall grosse sinnes not repented off yeelded unto without any reluctancy or striving against the apprehension of what they see in the world as soon as they come to knowledge leading them into a wrong habit both of desiring and doing wherby they walk not like children of the light who must be therefore spoken unto as to men unregenerate because a new kinde of regeneration at least a new degree thereof must be wrought in them by the Ministery of the word which by the Law brings them to repentance and by the Gospel to Faith in Christ these graces being further fortified by the second Sacrament which upon due examination of themselves they are bound to receive Dicitur quidam à nonnullis concedendam non esse◠Regenerationem nisi per verbum quod est semen Dei Petrus quippe ait priori Epist cap. 1. nos esse renatos baudquaquam semine corruptibili sed incorruptibili quod est sermo Dei Caeterum ad id respondemus de adult is hominibus id esse intelligendum De infantibus autem non it a rem se habere nisi velimus Hebraeorum filios melioris facere sortis quam Christianorum as Peter Martyr speaketh See Peter Mar in his common Places pag. 838. That is It is said indeed by some that regeneration is not to be granted but by the Word which is the seed of God because Peter saith in the first Epist chapter 1. That we are born againe in no wise by corruptible seed but by incorruptible which is the word of God But to that we answer That it is to be understood of men grown but concerning Infants the case is otherwise except we would make the children of the Hebrews of a better condition then the Children of Christians So then albeit we know this Sacrament of Baptisme to be effectuall to the regeneration of Infants yet are we not to grant Baptismall grace in it self sufficient to the salvation of men grown Mr. Tho. Bedf. in Sermon on Rom. 6,7 pag. 58. It is fitly therefore said by a learned Preacher to be available for the state of infancy to them a state of salvation as the Church teacheth them to stile it and to blesse God for it But afterwards when they become actuall sinners they must become actuall penitents And as they have contracted a new guilt so they must seek for a new grace otherwise the first will be found insufficient to salvation Thus farre that author And so you see how little you have gotten by your restriction of regeneration to the word alone For though you were so peremptory in your assertion concerning it as that you could say The truth is That the Children of God doe receive the Spirit of God to regenerate them not by sprinkling of water in baptisme but by bearing the Gospel Preached yet the truth is that Truth is nothing neer you for you affirme falsly and will by degrees be found still to be full of so many malicious slanders absurdities lies and errors as will make Orthodox and quiet men cry out that you are not so much tedious as troublesome both to the Church and State as be also the rest of your crew which now adayes do use to shew their heads and faces with such audacious boldnesse as makes it be admired that such spirits should be amongst us and be the first forsooth for reformation But I pray God work all for the best and settle us so in peace that Truth Unity and Goncord may flourish amongst us and seeing oh Lord the foolish ones do reproach thee daily do thou arise and maintain thine own cause in spight of all that shall oppose it DIALOGUE Gent. What do they say of the Catechisme in the service-Service-book Min. They say it is full of Popish errors as first in the Rubrick before the Catechisme it is written that Children baptized have all things necessary to salvation and are undoubtedly saved The truth is that they have no knowlede of sinne nor of the wrath and curse of God due to sinne nor of Christ nor of the Articles of the Christian Faith and therefore have neither Faith nor Repentance without which none can be saved It is true that Infants born of the Elect are undoubtedly saved by vertue of Gods everlasting Covenant of grace so many as are of the number of the Elect I say so many as are of the number of the Elect because many of the Elect that are now Saints in Heaven have brought forth children that are Reprobates and damned soules in Hell For Adam had Cain as well as Abel and Abraham had Ishmaell as well as Isaac and Isaac had Esau whom God hated as well as Jacob whom God loved ANSWER Well and what of all this Are not Infants baptized because they are born in originall sin and is not originall sin washt away in baptisme And if so then who will not say that a childe baptized is undoubtedly saved For though the root of corruption doth still remain yet the guilt is pardened and so such a childe dying before it hath procured a new guilt through the fructification of the branches which spring from the foresaid root is by virtue of holy baptisme so washed as it may be saved For baptisme is not a meer naked signe or badge of Christianity but an ordinary and efficatious means of Regeneration as I have already proved out of plain texts of holy Scripture And where as you come in again according to your wonted manner with The truth is that they have no knowledge of sinne nor of the wrath and curse of God due to sinne nor of Christ nor of the Articles of the Christian Faith and therefore have neither faith nor repentance without which none can be saved it is further answered in the words of one well able to satisfie See M. T. Bedf. Treat of the Sacr. pag. 192. viz. That in the Baptisme of Infants the spirit worketh not as a morall agent to proffer grace to the will but as a naturall or rather supernaturall Agent to work it in the will to put grace into the heart conferring upon them seminall and initiall grace which doth not presuppose Faith but is in it selfe the seed of Faith To parents converted Baptisme conveyed as did Circumcision to Abraham a superaddition of further grace to what they had extraordinarily received But to their Children Baptisme conveyed as did Circumcision to Isaac the first seeds of grace and regeneration Adde this that the Faith of the Parent is sufficient to qualifie the child for Baptisme yea for the grace of Baptisme the childe I say in whom as yet corruption of nature being scant active calleth for no act of personall grace to remove the barre of guilt polluted he is but by the act of another not by consent of his own therefore the faith of the Parent sufficeth to procure for
man examine himselfe and so let him eat of this Bread and drinke of this Cup. Hugo might have seen it and not have made all eases alike notwithstanding which peremptory assertion of his the Church of Rome left the matter still at liberty yea though Peter Lombard were mightily for it For Gratian who lived and flourished at the same time with Lombard determineth nothing definitively but shewing sentences for either side both that we must confesse our sins to the Priest and not confesse them doth leave it indifferently unto the Readers judgement After whom followed Lotharius Levita a Doctor of Paris the scholler and earnest follower of Peter Lombard who being once made Bishop of Rome and named Innocent the third made a law for it in the Councell of Literan which Gregory the ninth reciteth in his Decretall of Penance and Remission the fift booke and twelfth Chapter to this effect Let every person of either sexe after they are come to the yeares of discretion faithfully confesse alone at least * Semel in animo in the Latine for semel in anno once in a yeare their sinnes unto their owne proper Priest and doe their indeavour with their owne strength to doe the penance that is injoyned them receiving reverently at Easter at the least the Sacrament of the Eucharist unlesse peradventure by the councell of their owne Priest for some reasonable cause they thinke it good for a time to absteine from receiving it Otherwise in this life let them be prohibited to enter into the Church and when they are dead to be buried in Christian buriall This is that new Law which in their little pretty Councell of Trent was further enlarged and more errours added to their abused practice of Absolution But let not the Antichristian abuse of this divine Ordinance abolish the lawfull use thereof betwixt good Christians and their Pastours when need and occasion is to have it used And so I leave this point and come next to give answer unto something else DIALOGUE Gent. Why will they not suffer the Genealogy of Christ to be read to the people Min. They have no warrant for it from God but from the Pope who saith that ignorance is the Mother of devotion therefore the Genealogy of Christ is forbidden to be read of purpose to keepe the people in blindnesse not able to see the truth of God in fulfilling his promise to Abraham and to David that Christ should come of them and of their seed nor to see that Christ came not only of Abraham and of David who were Jewes but also of Rahab and of Ruth who were Gentiles and that therefore Christ is not a Saviour of the Jewes only but also of us Gentiles ANSWER Your judgement is too rash to be credited too rash good man I dare assure you If you had said that the Genealogies were lesse edifying then other scripture and therefore omitted your reason had been of more authority and better agreeing to what is mentioned in the order before the Kalender For tell me I beseech you whether those Instructions and Lessons which you gather from hence are manifest upon the bare reading and if not as for certaine they be not then why should you dare to accuse the Church of such a wicked purpose as to intend the keeping of the people in blindnesse DIALOGUE Gent. Why is the Booke of Canticles forbid to be read Min. It is also forbid of purpose to keep the people in blindenesse not able to see the ardent love and affection of Christ towards them least thereby they should be stirred up to love Christ and to be zealous of his glory and to abhorre the Pope and his Antichristian Religion ANSWER An heape of slanders still Here you take the like liberty to judge that you did before a thing nothing strange to men of your Sect I should else have wondred that you could not have thought the reading of this book to be omited for some other reason which if need were t is like enough I could lay before you But I passe it over and shall only tell you that Preaching may explaine what reading cannot And therefore till you hear Ministers forbidden to open in their Sermons either this book or the other Scriptures that you mention you may right worthy Sir sit worshipfully down and hold your peace DIALOGUE Gent. Why are the bookes of Kings and of Chronicles forbid Min. Because they doe shew that godly Kings did ever love Gods true Prophets and did hearken unto them and were zealous in maintaing the true Religion and in suppressing Idolatry ANSWER You should speak the truth and shame the Devill At the entrance of these accusations although I passed it by because I might here declare it you said that both the Bookes of the Kings except the eight first Chapters of the first Book were forbidden but look again and you will finde it otherwise If your eyes be dim you may use your Spectacles for the truth is that both the books are appointed to be read throughout excepting those eight Chapters which you mention and not vice versa for that 's false And because the Books of the Chronicles do relate the same stories which are written in the Books of the Kings it is sufficient to appoint the reading of the one although the other be omitted DIALOGUE Gent. Why is the Book of the Revelation forbid ANSWER You grant this booke also to be forbidden and yet you know that we have Lessons taken out of the Revelations and read upon Saint Johns day as also upon the day of All-Saints besides Epistles taken from thence and appointed to be read on Trinity Sunday Michaelmasse day and Innocents day Know all men therefore by these presents that you plainly shew your selfe no better then a false accuser In the next place you fall foule upon Bishops and besprinkle them with the durt which your Spleen hath raised only you doe a little qualifie your distast towards them that suffered Martyrdome in the dayes of Queen Mary but like not their love to the Book of Common Prayer thinking your selfe to be more illuminated then were they notwithstanding they laid down their lives in defence of the truth in denying the Popes usurped supremacy and for not granting the Bread and Wine in the Lord Supper to be the Body and Blood of Christ All the rest since have been odious unto you their remembrance loathsome and judged to be men destitute of the true feare of God Their Prelacy dislikes you and your language against them is just as was the language of Corath Dathan and Abiram in the dayes of old against Moses and Aaron Num. 16.3 Diotrephes was one also who would not receive the Apostles but prated against them with malicious words as Saint John hath told us Epist 3. v. 9 10. and because this pert man that thus prated against them could not be above them he slights them and labours for preeminence But what say the