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A13880 A defence of the ecclesiastical discipline ordayned of God to be vsed in his Church Against a replie of Maister Bridges, to a briefe and plain declaration of it, which was printed An[no]. 1584. Which replie he termeth, A defence of the gouernement established in the Church of Englande, for ecclesiasticall matters. Travers, Walter, 1547 or 8-1635. 1588 (1588) STC 24183; ESTC S118502 153,730 244

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vppon all he denyeth the order of the primitiue Church to bee restored in all alleadgeth for reason the differences amongest them in one point or other of order office discipline ryte or ceremonie Of all which or any of them hee giueth no one instance After repeating this agayne in mention of the Scottishe Church he asketh whether their gouernement and order their making of officers and their administration of Sacramentes and booke of common prayers bee all one with the booke which hath bin nowe three times exhibited in Parliament With this repetition hauing gotten the aduauntage to make mention of a booke of common prayer here hee resteth and taketh this one example for all to shewe the differences amongest the reformed Churches Which he would shewe by affirminge of differences betweene the Scottishe booke of common prayer and the booke presented in Parliament written the same printed at Middelborough at London and at Scotlande aboue three hundred differences being a booke little bigger then an Almanacke All which pointes if they were true what reformed Churches are these that differ one from another which he vndertooke to prooue The Scottish Church is one trewe but where is the other from which it differeth except the other bee the booke presented written in Parliament in Englande he nameth none But cōcerning the bookes if they haue so many differences why did he not note at the least some two or three of the principall It is not possible almost for a man to write out one and the same copye oftentymes or to print it but that there will bee some sentence clause worde syllable letter tytle or distinction changed If the differences had bin materiall notwithstanding it were neuer so impertinent I doubt not but hauing fallen into the mention of it hee would haue taken payne to haue noted some of the principall printed copies of that which was written and presented he nameth three whiche should be printed in three sundrie Countries Englande Scotlande and the lowe Countries a matter of as much vntrueth as the rest of his replies As for the bignes of the booke of common prayer presented in Parliament which he to disgrace it sayeth was the bignes of an Almanacke I knowe not of what bignes he may haue seene some Almanacke for all are not of one equall bignes but if he would iustlie haue founde faulte with that booke for being too little he should haue noted that it had wanted some poynt necessarie to be in such a booke eyther for publique prayers or fot administration of Sacramentes or any such like matter But if it haue all such things in it at large there is no faulte iustly to bee founde with the smallnes of it It might easilie haue bin greater if it had bin stuffed with impertinent matters nothing belonging to the Ministers office nor warrantable by the worde of God as with orders for priuate administrations of the Sacramentes Churching of Women Buryall seruice Confirmation making of Priestes and Deacons Bishops and Archbishops with a number of other such like But these and such like being matters neyther warranted by the worde nor sette down in the auncient Lyturgies bearing the names of Iames the Apostle of Chrisostome and of Basile nor in the Liturgie of the reformed Churges it seemeth there was no cause to make it bigger with such stuffe A little point of a Diamond is more worth then a great deale of such siluer as wee had at the beginning of her Maiesties raigne and nowe to hir highnes immortalll prayse and enriching of all the subiectes with out anie offence for the innouation and to the great contentement of all men is made finer and brought to the ancient standard appointed by lawe Bookes and namely of this vse are not to be wayed at the Kings beame where they waighe packes and vessels of great bulke and quantitie but in golden waightes and ballances where things of pryce and valewe are vsed to be wayed A masse of owre and an ingotte of siluer or golde are greater before they come to the furnace but after the fyre hath tried and refined them from drosse base mettall the body of it is not so great yet is it more ritch and precious then it was before In like maner that little booke if it haue bin well purged and tryed and oftentymes refined in the Lordes furnace by workemen of skill and faithefull in their seruice notwithstanding it be but litle yet may be much more worth then some other of greater bignes and embased with much allay No man findeth faulte nowe that a shilling is neere as little as a slyp-tester was at the beginninge of hir Maiesties raigne but rather acknowledged herein that hir Maiestie hath deserued all humble thankes of all hir subiects with most faithfull duetie and seruice to her highnes great prayse and honour Oh that it might please GOD in whose hande the hartes of Princes are as the Bardge is in the Bardgmans to turne whither he will to turne this Royall Bardge of her Maiesties harte towarde the Lordes sanctuarie to consider well all things in it and to touche the golde and siluer of it which ought to be ritchest as the sicle of the Sanctuarie also was wont to be and finding it besides all the abhominable drosse that her Maiestie through the goodnes of God hath taken from it to holde yet much allay and base mettall to cōmaunde it to be tryed and refyned yet seuen times in the fire till all the siluer and golde in it and the treasure belonging to it should be fine precious and answerable to the standarde ordayned by the lawe of God and the Temple of the Lorde in a spirituall maner riche and royall as in the dayes of Salomon Surely if the Lord should vouchsafe so to blesse vs much lesse cause should any man haue to quarrell at the small quantitie of the booke of cōmon prayer or any other pieces of the holy treasure and vessells of the Sanctuarie being incomparably enriched in estimation and pryce but rather should haue more iust cause then for crying Downe the bace money and enritching our coyne according to a standarde appointed by the lawes of the Realme to acknowledge with all humble thankes and increase of most duetifull loue and allegance a care so Princely so Christian so agreeing with the like presidents of her right noble Ancetours hir Highnes Father and Brother of worthie memorie and hir owne religious most honourable beginnings to the exceeding great encrease of the honour of Almightie God hir Maiesties immortall prayse with God and men and the vnspeakeable reioycing and comfort of many thousandes of her most loyall and duetifull subiectes Therefore it is not the smallnes of that booke that can disgrace it seeinge that commeth of the taking away of manie vnnecessarie partes and seeing that it conteyneth all such partes in it as are necessarie and lyke to haue bin in any Liturgie reported to haue bin within any time of
receyue our information herein so farre as we shal be able to make good proofe by the holy worde of God cōcerning his ordinance in these matters I doubt not then but the certayne trueth of the pointes sett downe in the declaration would appeare vnto them to the great honour of God and vnspeakeable ioy and comfort of all the Church amongst vs. Nowe followeth the third and last sentence of those which are set downe for the foundation of all the Discipline This sentence is that the order which God hath prescribed for the directing of his church is not to be learned els-where then in the holy worde of God For proofe whereof is alleadged 2. Tim. 3. vers 16.17 This trueth the Replyer if hee agree with him selfe in like maner yeeldeth vnto with this condition if it be vnderstoode that all generall or particular orders in the externall gouernement of the church are either expreslie specified in Gods holy worde or inclusiuelie comprehended in it This is the substance of his Replie to this point wherein he is to knowe that it is not otherwise meant but that eyther by playne euidence or necessarie consequence they are to bee shewed to haue their ground in the worde of God for the substance therfore of this point we are agreed In this place without all maner of occasion offred him he falleth into the mention of a booke which he termeth our communion booke and sayth to be intituled The forme of common prayers administration of the Sacramentes c. agreeable to Gods worde and the vse of the reformed Churches Such a booke in deede bearing that tytle there hath bin much speach of it is saide as it had bin twise before so this last Parliament nowe the thirde time to haue bin presented to that high and Honorable Court Wherof because the speaches were diuers many haue bin in doubt what they should iudge of it Therefore I doubt not but that one no better affected to it then he is and sheweth him selfe to be both in calling it our communion booke meaning as it seemeth that it was reuisited and considered by sundrie faythfull Ministers of the Gospell and by their meanes procured to be presented in Parliament and in his readines to finde faulte with it without cause but he hath obserued some notable matter in it that may stay the vncertayne and doubtfull opinions of many concerning it and may certifie them vpon good and sufficient grounde of iust cause to disallowe it The matter which he noteth in it is that in the title of it it is sayd to be agreeable to the worde of God and the vse of the reformed churches And this is all that he noteth in it whereby it may seeme to be a holy booke and worthie to bee written in letters of golde if it bee such a one as so ill an eye lookinge into it could finde nothing reproueable in it but this that it is agreeable to Gods worde and the vse of the best reformed Churches He might easilie finde as great a stayne as this is in the most orient pearle that euer came frō the Indies Such a pearle was in deede worthie to bee set in the Diademe of a Prince and meete to be presented to so noble a State as is the State of that honourable assemblie If there were a Gentleman in all the lande fearing God in trueth with singlenes and sinceritie of harte wise without cunning and deceytfull practises zealous of the honor and seruice of God louing his Coūtrey with most tender affection constant in the trueth with a christian magnanimitie such a man surelie were a personage qualified for such a purpose as to make tender to the States of a lande of such a booke as is agreable to Gods word and the vse of the best reformed Churches If amongest all the Gentlemen of a Countrey there were two graced of God with rare and excellent giftes of true pitie and zeale of knowledge and vnderstanding in other good learning and especiallie in the heauenlie knowledge of diuinitie and in it particularlie of the Discipline and spiritual pollicie of the church and of so gracious speach vtterance that the hearers might after truelie report and saye of them Wee sawe them as men that looked into the glorie of God and had bin chaunged into the similitude and likenes of the Lordes owne glorie wee heard them as they that seemed to vs to speake not with the tongues of men but of Aungelles for howe did our hartes burne within vs when we hearde them so zealouslie mightilie pleade on the behalf of God and perswade the receyuing of a booke that had all things in it agreeable to Gods worde and the vse of the best reformed churches surelie such men were fitt aduocates to speake in a cause so holy and so importing the honour of God and the comfort of his people If there were in the Ministerie true and faithfull seruauntes of God such as seeke not them selues but the thinges that belong to Christ Iesus And if there were of euerie Countrie men indued with pitie knowledge wisedome care of the Church the flowre of a lande assembled togither these were in deede for such a purpose to laye their heades togither and to conferre howe they might with most grace set out such a iewell to winne fauor to drawe loue wheresoeuer it should be seene and especiallie of those who should most of all take pleasure in iewelles of price For wherein could any mans giftes be better imployed then in recōmending for publique prayers and administration of the Sacramentes such a booke as is agreeable with the worde of God and the vse of the best reformed Churches Belike such a booke mainteyned not an vnlearned ministerie nor a pontificall Hierarchie which willinglie goe togither and vpholde one another nor reading of Apocripha rather then Canonicall scriptures in the publique assemblie of the Church nor priuate administration of the Sacra nor cases of necessitie of them implying the erroneous doctrine of conference of grace by them for the deede done nor the baptisme of women nor cōfirmation as an ordinance to giue increase of grace nor Bishops of a seuerall ordination and power from other Pastours nor Deacons without anie charge of the poore nor power to minister baptisme without like power to administer the Lordes supper nor to minister both without power to preach except further licence be graūted these such like matters no doubt such a booke could not mainteyne it being apparant what the worde of God is herein and the vse of the reformed churches Contrariwise it must needes be that such a booke appointeth that all Ministers of Sacra should be preachers that preaching bee ioyned alwayes with the ministerie of the Sacramentes and that they be alwayes ministred in the publique assemblie that they bee not diuided from preaching nor one from another in the pastours calling that the Deacons relieue the poore and the Eldership direct the causes of the
nor this nor this and so maketh three sundrie argumentes of his owne as if they were vsed by the Declaration but are not and denyeth them to be good which is nothing to the matter he tooke in hande For if he make a hundreth yll argumentes as he hath done in this booke and can more easilie doe them then make one good one there is no reason to charge the Declaration for such a cause as he mainteyneth From this he goeth to shewe that it is not meete our brethren should vse the same argumentes that the Anabaptistes doe against Princes Wherein he nameth vs our brethren as scorning vs. Whereof I knowe not what example he may haue but of Ismaell who is said to haue scorned Isaac wherevpon th'Apostle sayeth As he that was begotten according to the fleshe persecuted him that was borne according to the spirit euen so is it nowe The rest of that marginall note shewing whereabout hee goeth is that our brethren vse the same argumentes whiche the Anabaptistes doe against Princes Which is so doubtfullie set downe as if he could be content the Reader tooke it not onely that the Anabaptistes vse argumentes against Princes but also that the Declaration vseth the same argumentes against Princes The Replier him selfe hath not so farre lost all conscience and modestie as to charge vs in anie sorte with any part of the damnable errours of the Anabaptistes but plainlie acknowledgeth that we detest them but somewhat he would fayne should cleaue vnto vs. And therefore would haue it vnderstoode that we haue some indisposition against Princes that we haue thus much good liking of the disputations of the Anabaptistes as to vse their argumentes against Princes But the Lorde who seeth the secretes of all hartes knoweth that in our most inwarde spirit we reuerence and honour Magistracie as the holy and necessarie ordinance of God euen amongst Christians and yeelde all willing and cheerfull obedience vnto it euen for conscience sake of the will of God Therfore the accuser of our brethrē him self as he is termed in the reuelation can not accuse vs with any maner of colour of their errours As for vsing their argumentes where did euer the Anabaptistes vse this argument that in a treatise of ecclesiasticall regiment good order requireth to speake first of ecclesiasticall officers before a man treate of the soueraigne power of Princes because the Church was perfect in all hir regiment before there was any Christian Prince Is this any argument against Princes or doeth it weaken any thing at all the power of the Christian Magistrate that their authoritie be treated of in a booke so as may stande best with good order Where did euer any Anabaptistes vse such an argument It were flatlie contrarie to their error to vse such a one as plainlie implyeth allowance of the Christian Magistrate and standeth onely for a reason of the order of the treatise But if the Declaration had vsed any argumentes of theirs being not to the same ende or like purpose that they vsed them that is to disproue the necessarie most lawfull ordinance of God concerning Magistrates that had not bin blame worthie For as hath bene saide th'argumentes of Logike are as common to good and badde as are the rules of grammer yea as the Sūne and the rayne so as if he would haue vs forbeare all the argumentes that euer the Anabaptistes vsed and by consequence anie other heretiques he may as well forbid vs to vse the same rules of grammer yea the same Sunne ayre water and other things necessarie for this life But howe standeth this with his maintenance of the Popish Hierarchie and Iurisdiction so many popishe superstitions as he mainteyneth all whiche it were more reason he should refuse then to haue cōmon with them and other things of most necessarie vse But it is not for nothing that he obiecteth this for by this meanes hee hath gotten the aduātage of stuffing his booke with another mans labours In deede if it be a faulte in a booke to be little as hee scorned the booke of cōmon prayer presented of late in Parliament for being litle he hath founde a good remedie to auoyde that fault which is easilie auoyded if one write so many not sentences but pages and leaues as he hath done out of other mens bookes The Authour he alleadgeth is one Gellius a godly learned man as appeareth by his writings but where he saith it may seeme the declaration tooke many things out of him he is greatly deceyued for the declaration was written not a fewe yeres before the booke of Gellius which he saith so much is taken out As for his writing against the Anabaptists he hath dealt as may well cōmend both his pietie learning and be of verie good and profitable vse vnto the Church but to the matter of the declaration he sayth nothing at all Therfore there is no cause to make any answere to him who speaketh nothing against vs. But if he alleadge him because he otherwyse expoūdeth a text of scripture then the Declaration doeth it is not worth his labour of writing this being no new thing that good writers may take some one text in other sense then another doeth prouided that the sense be alwayes such as may stande with the proportiō of faith So as the declaratiō is no more in that case to be pressed with the opinion or authoritie of Gellius then Gellius or any other is to bee with his that wrote the Declaration Which yet if he will presse further the trueth is that the declaratiō in the exposition of the 12. to the Romanes the 12. of the former epist to the Corinthians hath both the trueth it selfe to beare witnes to it and the best writers of this age For it is cleare that the worde Gouernor in those places noteth only ecclesiasticall officers all sure and circūstances of that place so inforcing it Another point he would take of Gellius is that he saith that Magistracy and ministerie haue bin most nearely ioyned togither euen from the beginning as appeareth by Moses Aaron Which is godly truly said of Gellius but what is this either for the replier or against the declaratiō The reason gathered hereof is such as I thinke no man of reason would haue looked for that is as he noteth in the margent that the ciuill Magistrate hath euer frō the beginning bin ioyned with the ecclesiasticall ministery intending thereby that then it must needes haue bin so likewise in the primitiue Church But Gellius his meaninge is so farre from this as it may seeme hee hath bene cousined in it and giuen to light credite to other that haue abused him or els to haue vsed small eyther diligence or conscience in this collection For the purpose of Gellius is farre other in that place namely to shewe that Magistracie and ecclesiasticall ministerie are not as the Anabaptistes would haue it thinges that can not stande togither For