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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A69195	Certaine demandes with their grounds, drawne out of holy writ, and propounded in foro conscientiæ by some religious gentl. vnto the reverend fathers, Richard archbishop of Canterbury, Richard bishop of London, William bishop of Lincolne, Garvase bishop of Worcester, William bishop of Exeter, & Thomas bishop of Peterbourough wherevnto the said gentl. require that it would please their lordships to make a true, plaine, direct, honest and resolute aunswere.	Bancroft, Richard, 1544-1610.	1605 (1605)	STC 6572.5; ESTC S112734	57,418	70

doe wee desire your Lordships resolutions herein because there is no maner of solemnitie signe figure or ornament of a crosse required by the book of cōmon prayer to be vsed in that administration of Baptisme which in the same book is intituled private Baptisme For if Baptisme without any reall solemnitie or actuall ornament of a crosse or of the signe of a crosse may bee administred privately how much more without these humane solemnities and ornamentes might baptisme be administred publiquelie There being then in the Church of England two formes maners of the administration of Baptisme the one private the other publike the one with a crosse the other without a crosse and both of these concluded by your late Canons not to be corrupt superstitious or vnlawfull by meanes also whereof there is to be seene no cōformitie or vniformitie betwene having solemnities ornaments of crosses signes of crosses in publike baptisme betwene the not having solemnities and ornaments of crosses and signes of crosses in private baptisme we pray your Ll. to resolve vs out of holy writ whether these ornaments solemnities of crosses signes of crosses for the stability of publike peace quiet in the church the not enforcing of any mans conscience with the vse of the crosse might not aswell be left out in the administratiō of publike as it is in the administratiō of private baptisme For whether respect be had to the brethren offended or made weake by the vse therof or whether we regard the not cōfirming strenghtening of the superstitious in their error there is farr much more danger like to ensue both to the one sorte to the other by the vse of it in publike then in private Baptisme by reason that the assembly generally is evermore great in the one and never but small in the other But to let passe this deformitie of crossing not crossing in publik private baptisme we will prosecute some few demands not yet moved concerning the feigned imaginarie and ayrie crossing vsed in publike Baptisme And first we pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy writ how a Minister in foro conscientiae can be cleare without sinne when as in the same publike continewed act of Gods worship imaginarily feignedly he shal affirme the doing of a thing w ch indeed in trueth he doth not ne possibly can do if the Minister then without some instrumēt chalk rudle or such like can make no crosse vpon the childs forehead and yet shall say as the booke prescribeth that he signeth him with the signe of the crosse what a grosse fitten call ye that To affirme that the passing of the Ministers hand thūme or finger croswise in the ayre over the childs forehead is to make a crosse vpon the childs forehead that the same passing in the ayre is also the signe of a crosse this we say to affirme is as if a man should assevere that the flying of a bird in the ayre the slyding of a serpent vpon a stone leaveth a bird and the signe of a bird in the ayre a serpent and the signe of a serpent vpon a stone And to say that there is an invisible crosse or a signe of an invisible signe of a crosse remaining in the ayre over the childes forehead how absurd and without all reason that saying is we leave to your Lordships considerations For if it be vnpossible to make a crosse or the signe of a crosse vpon the running water much more vnpossible is it to make a crosse or the signe of a crosse in the subtile and replenishing ayre wherefore vnlesse your Lordships can prove by some rule of holy Writt that every Minister is indowed with power from above to make crosses and signes of crosses which be invisible and that these invisible signes and crosses be also invisible tokens in the childes forehead of his being not ashamed of Christ crucified of his manfull fighting c. we demand what good plea in foro conscientiae your Lordships can frame to dischardge the Minister from being guilty of a thrice feigned imaginary lying crosse we say thrice faigned at the least First we receive and doe signe thee secondly with the signe and thirdly of the Crosse And what if we saide fourthly in token for what token can the child or his witnesse in his name receive keepe when as neither he nor they have any crosse any signe or any token of a crosse given or delivered vnto them at all which maner of crossing signing and tokening may well bee compared to our atturnies proceeding by signes and profers signes and profers when indeed by such their pleadings they hasten not but delay their clyents causes only making signes and profers signes and profers as though by this meanes they hastened to an end when as indeed they mind nothing lesse But to speake no more of the Ministers feigned signes and profers of making crosses signes of crosses in the ayre vpon or over the childs forehead Wee demand whether not to be ashamed to confesse the faith of Christ crucified whether not to be ashamed manfully to fight vnder his banner against sinne the world and the divell whether not to be ashamed to continewe Christes faithfull souldier and servant to his lifes end We demand we say whether these three graces be not all every of them inward invisible and spirituall graces yea or no If your Lordships answere as the trueth is that these graces be all spiritual invisible inward graces then because by the book of common prayer so the Minister make a crosse it is not materiall of what forme the crosse be made we demand by what rules of holy writ your Lordships can prove that the signe of the crosse of saint Iohns of Ierusalem the signe of saint Andrews crosse the signe of saint Peters crosse the signe of the crosse made after the Greeke T. or like the Hebrew χ. or like the Greeke X. or the signe of any other crosse for there be divers other formes of crosses can be a token of these spirituall and invisible graces if so be they were engraven with a Diamond vpon the childes forehead If your Lordships answere affirmatively that the signe of saint Andrewes crosse of saint Iohns crosse of saint Peters crosse or the signe of any other crosse made by the Minister vpon the childes forehead is a token of these inward spiritual and invisible graces then we demand whether your Lordships ascribe not like power to every minister for the trāsubstantiation of every invisible crosse feinedly made in the administration of Baptisme to the forme of a true visible crosse as the Pope attributeth to every Prieste for the transubstantiation of every piece of bread wherevpon he bloweth at the Altar into the Body of Christ or if your Lordships answere because there is no crosse sensibly to be seene but intelligiblie to be vnderstood that the imaginary feigned ayrie

outward forme and maner of acting any service vnto God by our Saviour Christ or his Apostles in prayer preaching the word administring the Sacraments was an vnorderly or an vndecent forme or maner of acting that service before God yea or no If your Lordships answere as the trueth is that the outward maner of acting every kind of service by our Saviour Christ his Apostles was so decently orderly done and so acceptable vnto God as nothing in the outward acting thereof could be more wee then pray your Lordships to resolve vs first what warrant you have out of holy writt to disseyse all the Ministers of the outward acting of the whole worship of God in prayer and administring the Sacraments without a Surplice Secondly what warrant you have from the spirit of Christ to disseyse all the Ministers of the acting of some part of Gods worship in the administration of publike Baptisme without making a crosse vpon the childes forehead and signing him with the signe of the crosse Lastly what approbation you have from the spirit of Christ wholy to disseyse all the sonnes and daughters of God of the acte of sitting in the acte of receiving the Sacrament of the Lordes Supper For in that you have commanded that no Minister when he celebrateth the communiō shall wittingly administer the same to any but to such as kneel you haue by consequence inhibited every one that sitteth to receive the same And thus to establish your owne humane decencie and order of kneeling in the acte of receiving the communion you have disseysed vs of that Euangelicall decencie and order of sitting warranted vnto the Ministers and vnto vs by the example of our Saviour Christ and his Apostles whē as at his last Supper he him self delivered both the Bread and the Wine vnto his Apostles as they sate and not as they kneeled at the Table whereby it appeareth that you looked not vnto the holy one of Israell nor sought vnto the Lord and he yet is wisest But Sirs by your patience it is not required as a thing of meere necessitie as though without kneeling the Sacrament might not lawfully be ministred and received at all but for reverence and conformities sake only it is commanded that the people should kneele Why then by your Lordships favour we demand vnto whom this reverence is yealded and vnto what thing this conformitie is proportioned for that this forme of kneeling is not conformed to the Apostles maner of sitting at the table is evident nether can it be denyed but that this kinde of reverence is fashioned like to that maner of reverence which every catholicke fornicatour by the ordinance of his love the great whore doeth yealde vnto his Idoll when he received his breaden god wherefore we pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy Writt whether your conformitie and your reverence of kneeling in the acte of receiving the Sacrament of the Lordes Supper may not rightly be condemned as things not having any due reverence conformitie or proportion with the written Law of God or example of our Saviour Christ and his Apostles before mencioned Besides we demand whether your Lordships had not worthely deserved to have bene much praised and commended by all the churches for that thanks might have bene given by many vnto God for you if so be for reverence vnto the example of our Saviour Christ who did all things well and conformitie to his Apostles ye had commanded the people not to have kneeled in the acte of receiving after the fashion of the catholicke fornicatours who doe all things ill but rather to have sitten after the maner of the Apostles especially sithence betwene this maner prescribed of receiving the Sacrament of the Lordes Supper kneeling the maner of the receiving the Sacrament of Baptisme yea and the word it selfe sitting or standing and not kneeling there can be found no maner of conformitie at all And yet as we deny not when we come to the Font or to the Sermon both before after the Word preached and Baptisme administred but that we ought reverently and vniformely to kneele in prayer thankesgiving prescribed by the booke Even so also we acknowledge when we come to the Lords Table that before and after the deliverie and receiving of the Sacrament we ought to confesse our sinnes to pray and to give thankes reverently and vniformely kneeling vpon our knees But that we should more kneele in the very acte of receiving Bread and Wine at the Ministers hand at the Lords Table then in the name of our children in the very acte of our childrens receiving Water vpon their faces or being dipt in Water wee should kneele at the Font in the time of Baptisme we for our partes must confesse that as yet this mysterie of conformitie and reverence to kneele in the acte of receiving the communion is hidden from vs because we see no more needfulnesse of reverence and conformitie for kneeling to be in the acte of receiving the one Sacrament then to be in the act of receiving the other nor that there is any greater reverence or conformitie of kneeling to bee vsed when the Minister breaketh bread for our bodyes which perisheth at the communion Table then when he breaketh the bread of life for our soules which perisheth not in the Pulpit Nay furthermore what conformitie is there prescribed in the booke of common prayer when in one the same church and in one the same act of receiving the Lords Supper it permitteth the Minister to receive standing and prescribeth the people to receive kneeling or what greater reverence is there required by the sheepe then is to be performed by the sheepheard who should be an example to the flocke The words of the book for the Ministers standing when he receiveth the communion seeme vnto vs to bee so perspicuous and without all maner of ambiguitie as without an absurditie they can not bee construed to command a Minister to kneele for the maner how the Minister of the place or how other Ministers if any be present to helpe him should receive is not prescribed at all vnlesse it be prescribed that he and they should receive standing Nay howsoever in the same book it be said that the Minister shall deliver the communion in both kindes to the people in their hands kneeling neverthelesse it followeth not herevpon the law being not in the negative but in the affirmative that the Minister may not deliver the communion to the people standing or sitting or that the people be exactly bound not to stand or to sitt but to kneele Besides because by the booke of common prayer of the seconde of Edw. 6. wherevnto only as we take it touching ornaments rites and ceremonies our booke hath reference which booke also of Edw. the 6. by the repeale made of the statute of primo of Queene Mary in the first session of this last Parliament is revived because we say by this booke of common prayer of

estimation to the honor and dignitie of our Christian King and the noblenes of his kingly charitie declared by his proclamation as that hereafter in your consistories and publique seates of Iudgement you would vse conferences arguments and perswasions wayes of love and gentlenes workings by clemencie and weight of reason to reclayme all that be in the ministerie to the obedience of the church lawes according as by the Kings proclamation you are required rather thē by rigour of law shaking the kings sword and pressing the kings commandement to enforce the trembling consciences of your weake brethren contrarie to the Kings most noble christian intention plainly vttered by his proclamation There be sundrie other poyntes in his Maiesties proclamation which by your Lordships worthily deserved consideration before you had begun those violēt courses which some of you have pursued in this case The peremptory day assigned to the Ministers for their conformitie by the King being of more authoritie then 1000. of your canonicall admonitious would have bene fully expired before you had troubled the Ministers about this matter otherwise then by conferences argumentes perswasions c. All Ministers who had incurred no censures of the church or penalties of the law in the Queenes tyme or since the Kings raigne before the sixth of Iuly 1604. be exempted out of the proclamation though before the day appointed they have not conformed them selves to the orders of the Church And yet many such have you disquieted The Lawes and orders of the Church remayne very vncerteyne so as it is not certeyne to what lawes and orders established the ministers should conforme them selves And yet before the day expired you have vrged some Ministers to cōforme them selves to Canons divulged since the Proclamation The Canon law is vtterly voyd within the Realme and therefore your oath of Canonicall obedience is of no force and all your Canonicall admonitions not worth a rush The old provinciall constitutions intreat of no such oath besides they litle or nothing respect any orders or ceremonies of our Church To which booke of common prayer the Ministers should subscribe in that maner and forme as by the Canon is required is not decided If they subscribe to the booke published since the Kings raigne they may then be called into question at every sessions assises for vsing an other forme then is prescribed in the Queenes booke the same remayning still in force vnrepealed if subscription be vrged to the Queenes booke then may not the Ministers yeeld therevnto because the Kinge and Bishops have concluded to reforme some things conteyned in the same as being repugnant to the holy word of God Besides the booke of common prayer of the second of Edward 6. touching ornamentes rites and ceremonies and wherevnto for the same respect both the Queenes and the Kings booke hath reference revived this last Parliament by disannulling the statute of repeale made the first of Queene Mary This book we say of the 2. of Edw. 6 establishing other ornaments rites and ceremonies then the former bookes doe some of those ceremonies also to be vsed or at least at every mans devotion and the ornaments after another maner thē ours make vs greatly to stand in doubt whether all ceremonies conteyned in every of these bookes or but some or which of them are to be vsed yea or no. Touching the late Canons of what authoritie many of them be may iustly be questioned because some of them seeme vnto vs to be contrariant or repugnant to the lawes statutes customes of the realme som to be derogatorie to the Kings prerogative royall and other some to be repugnant to the holy word of God and therefore in all these three respects to be voyd canons by the common law statutes of the realme Lastly howsoever some ministers might be within the cōpasse of the proclamation not conforming them selves before the last of Novēb to the lawes established before the 16. of Iuly neverthelesse the Bishops after the day expired ought to have attēded the Kings pleasure by what wayes and meanes he had determined to take from among the people all occasions of sectes divisions and vnquietnes much lesse before the day should they have attempted any thing vnlesse as the proclamation requireth them they had provided meete persons to bee substitutes in the places of those who wilfully had abandoned their charges These things being thus most providently nobly and Royally for the quietnes of the church set forth by the Kings proclamation it had bene a parte of very great wisedome and moderation for your Lordships in our opinions paciently to have expected the Kings further direction before by your vntimely pressing the kinges commandement authoritie and rigour of his lawes ye had indevoured the inforcing of their consciences without perswasions by weight of reason And so much the rather should your Lordships have done this that hereby ye might have satisfied all civill Magistrates Gentlemen and others of vnderstandinge that they seeing by your conferences argumentes perswasions love gentlenes clemencie and weight of reason that the cause which you maintayne not that which they impugne is good might not in any sorte have supported favoured or countenanced any factious ministers in their obstinacie as by the proclamation they are required And yet by your Lordships favour not to conceale any thing which hetherto we have as we thinke rightly conceaved of the Kinges proclamation we can not but informe your Lordships that by the same the King hath more tēdered the good estate of the ministers of their controversie in hand then ever was tēdred by any former Prince since poperie was banished For when was there in England before this time by any kingly proclamation any conference argument perswasion love gentlenes clemencie weight of reason commanded rigor of the law forbidden to be vsed by the Archbishops Bishops for the reclayming of the ministers to the lawes of the church When were any ministers by publike authoritie called as it were into open field to stand vpon arguments and weight of reason Whē was it appointed by publike authoritie that any ministers should answere and that Archbishops Bishops should oppose that the ministers should be defendants and the Bishops plaintifes When was it proclaymed by any Princes authoritie that the Archbishops and Bishops to their vttermost indevours by argumentes and weight of reason should prove vnto the ministers that the book of cōmon prayer bookes of homilies booke of cōsecrating Bishops Priests and Deacons book of Articles and other lawes orders of the church conteyne nothing in the whole or in any parte disagreeable either in doctrine or governement to the word of God All which things by the proclamation are intended should be done which things also if the Archbishops Bishops have done thē indeed we confesse the ministers that have not yeelded to conforme thēselves to be wilfull the King to be righteous for

by his owne knowledge This people have removed their hearte farr from me and their feare toward me was taught by the precept of man In vaine they worship mee teaching for doctrines the precepts of men From which grounds we demand Whether your Lordships can prove out of holy Writt that there can be a service yealded vnto God where God hath not given a commandement Whether the more a man thinketh to doe any thinge by his owne wisedome and not as God instructeth him the more he doe not prove him selfe to be a vile beast Whether any thing can be acceptable in the sight of God which he never required at our handes Whether God wil be honored according to mans fantasie or rather doth not detest whatsoever is not grounded vpon his worde If your Lordships for the avoyding of these demandes shall deny the feigned making of a crosse and feigned signing of the childe in the forehead with a crosse in the administration of Baptisme to be any service or to be any worship vnto God and therefore neither voluntarie service neither will-worship vnto God then we demaunde for what intent or to what end the making of a Crosse and signinge the forehead of the childe with a crosse is commaunded as a necessarie service to be performed by the Minister in that publique acte of Gods worship for if the forme and manner of Gods worship as you say be established prescribed conteyned in the booke of common prayer if also the ministration of the Sacrament commaunded in that booke be as you say no corrupt superstitious or vnlawfull worship neither conteyning any thing in it that is repugnant to the scriptures how should not the making of a Crosse and signing of the childe in the forehead with a crosse but be a pure a religious a lawfull worship vnto God Besides if making a crosse vpon the childes forehead and signing the forehead of the childe with a crosse be no act of gods worship in the administration of Baptisme Then we demaund how the Minister in foro cōscientiae can be guiltles of taking the holy name of God in vaine when as in the act of Gods service and worship hee doth neither worship nor serve God But Sirs by your patience the Minister in obeying the authoritie of the Church when shee commaundeth him to make a Crosse herein obeyeth God Why then by your Lordships favour wee demaund whether the church doe serve God or doe but please her selfe in that her cōmandment For say we where no commaundement of God there no service vnto God And therefore if the Church by such her commaundement doe but please hir selfe and not serve and please God Then we demaund whether the Church in thus pleasing her selfe and not serving ●od doe not offend God asmuch nay rather more then if shee had commaunded a voluntarie service and a will-worship vnto God But Sirs the acte of making a Crosse and signing the childe in the forehead with a crosse is no parte of baptisme for we graunt that baptisme is perfect and absolute without it But yet by your Lordships favour the question is not whether making of a crosse or signing with a crosse be any parte of baptisme but whether making of a crosse and signing with a crosse be any parte of the continued acte of the outward and divine worship given vnto God in the publick administration of baptisme For if it be a meere traditionall and no divine or religious action or if it be partly traditional and partly divine we still vrge your Lordships to prove vnto vs by the holy scriptures whether it were ever lawfull in any act of Gods worship to act a thing meerely traditionall or partly traditionall and partly divine As for the action of sitting standing kneeling going reading praying preaching and if there be any other Divine naturall or necessarie actions powers or faculties of the body or minde without which no outward service can be yealded vnto God We confesse that the Church with the Magistrates consent may determine of the comely and orderly acting of these things because Aliquo per Deum mandato omnia ea mandantur ne quibus illud mandatum commodè religiosè adimpleri non potest And therefore those divine necessarie and naturall actions before remembred depending vpon or proceeding from the powers and faculties of the bodie or mind being such as without which the outward service of God can not commodiously decently and orderly be accomplished we affirme that they be confirmed vnto vs from generall rules of holy writ And this also may serve for an answere for the having of water a vessell to conteyne water because as water of necessitie is required to the administration of baptisme so must also water we having no waters running through our churches of necessitie be cōteyned in some vessell but as for making a crosse or signing the forehead of the child with a crosse in baptisme because the same by your confession is no part of Baptisme And because also the same is not properly and simply any necessary naturall or divine actiō as without which Baptisme can not be administred Nay because it is such an action as without which Baptisme very decently and orderly may be administred wee pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy Writt how the Minister may acte the signe in the outward acte of Gods worship And yet not breake as earst hath bene said either the second commandement by outwardly serving God otherwise then hee hath commanded in his worde or not violate the thirde commandement by taking his holy Name in vaine But by your patience Sirs this making a crosse vpon the childes forehead and this signing him with a signe of the crosse in token c. though the same be no part of Baptisme nor any parte of the outward worship of God nor any naturall nor necessarie action of the body or mind without which Baptisme can not be administred yet is the same a solemnitie an ornament apperteyning vnto Baptisme by the order of the church which ought not to be omitted and left vndone But by your Lordships favour this your Apologie is of no fresher hue nor of any deeper dye then wherewith the great Papistes and fond Canonistes have alwayes bepainted and becouloured their signing their salting their spitteling their oyling their chrismating and their other such like solemnities according to these verses Sal oleum chrisma cereus chrismate saliua Flatus virtutem Baptismatis ista figurant Haec cum patrinis non mutant esse sed ornant And therefore we pray your Lordships to resolve vs by some place of holy Writt whether the Papists and you or either of you be inabled to invent or ordeyne such solemnities ornaments signes figures of crosses to be vsed in the publique administration of Baptisme as never once came in the mind of God to have devised or vsed And so much the rather