Selected quad for the lemma: book_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	common_a	form_n	prayer_n	5,541	5	6.6459	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A56660	A friendly debate betwixt two neighbours, the one a conformist, the other a non-conformist about several weighty matters / published for the benefit of this city, by a lover of it, and of pure religion.; Friendly debate between a conformist and a non-conformist	Patrick, Simon, 1626-1707.; Wild, Robert, 1609-1679.	1668 (1668)	Wing P798; ESTC R41393	117,976	250

it and convince you of your errour even from your own Practice N. C. My Practice I never use any and I think never shall C. It is a wonderful thing that you should be so blind Do you never sing the Psalms of David and that as they are translated into English Metre N.C. Yes C. Those are Prayers and Petitions as well as Thanksgivings are they not And let me tell you the words are so mean and sometime uncouth nay the sense of the Prophet so often mistaken in that Translation which is commonly used that if you had so much to except against the Common Prayer as may reasonably be excepted against many things there there would be no end of your Complaints you would be ten times louder in your Clamours than you are N. C. Indeed I did not think of this C. Your Ministers do but are not so smcere as to give you notice of it lest you should be disabused and they should lose your Custom But pray think of it your self hereafter and tell me why it is not as lawful to use a Form of Prayer in Prose as to use one in Verse You will be a marvellous man if you can shew a Reason of the Difference N. C. But this Form is not taken out of the Mass book as the Common Prayer is C. Then you lay down your quarrel at a Form of Prayer and onely scruple this Form now in use and that because it hath been used in the Roman Church N. C. Very right C. Then pray lay aside your Bible too at least cut the Psalter out of your book for that 's much in use in their Service N. C. You go too fast that is the Word of God and therefore to be used but any thing else used in the Church of Rome I think we should have nothing to do with C. This is a foolish exception For the Reason you gave me concludes against the use of the Psalms too or else it concludes nothing which I thus demonstrate You lay down this Proposition Whatsoever is used in the Service of the Roman Church must not be used by us To this I adde another The Psalms and other Scriptures are used in the Service of the Roman Church Now do you draw any other Conclusion if you can from these two but this That those Scriptures must not be used by us If you like not this Conclusion then you must mend the first proposition which is your own and you may do what you will with it as for mine it cannot be mended for it is certainly true Now how will you mend it but by allowing us the use of whatsoever is good in their Service And then you must admit of more than the Scripture to be used by us even all that is according to the Scripture As our Prayers certainly are though some of them are but Translations of the Latine Prayers used in that Church N. C. I will mend it in this manner Whatsoever they use except it be the Word of God we are not to use it C. It is meer Humour that makes you limit it in this manner For there is something good besides the Scripture viz. that which is writ said or done according to it And why they should make any thing of this nature unuseful to us by their using it since you confess the Holy Scripture notwithstanding their use nay abuses of it is not prophaned thereby is past my capacity to understand But perhaps you will be more sensible of what I say if I tell you that upon these principles you must reject the use of the Creed commonly called the Apostles Creed because it is Professed there in Divine Service as well as here N. C. I would not willingly go so far from them C. Not go you must whether you will or no if you will follow your Principles which will carry you so far and a great deal farther For this is the very bottom on which your Discourse stands that whatsoever hath been in use by a bad company of men must by no means be used by us in God's Worship except onely such portions of Holy Scripture as shall be thought fit to be read in our Assemblies From whence it follows that you may not lift up your Eyes to Heaven nor Kneel when you pray nor N. C. Now methinks you rave C. Pray hear me a little and you shall see it 's you that are wild and not I so wild as to practise that which you condemn If we must not do what the Church of Rome doth in the Worship of God then much less what Heathens have done and still do for they are worse than the Roman Church N. C. I think your Proposition is good enough but who doth that which the Heathen Idolaters were wont to do C. That did the Jewish Church and that do you N. C. Prove that C. So I will and you shall have Scripture for it ☜ The Jews and you also Bow your Knees or Bodies to God and the Heatheus bowed their Knees to Baal and Bodies to Rimmon 2 Kings 5.18 1 Kings 19.18 You all list up your Eyes to Heaven when you worship and the Heathen lifted up their eyes to their Idols as appears by the practice in Israel who imitated their Customs Ezek. 18.12 and 33.25 You stretch out your hand to God and so the Custom was to do to a strange God Psalm 44.20 The Heathens sate down at their Feasts when they eat of the Sacrifices in the Temples of their Gods 1 Corinth 8 1● Exod. 32.6 which is the very posture which you are so fond of when you come to seast with Christ in the holy Sacrament of his Body and Bloud sacrificed for us I would adde more but that it would be tedious And the truth of it is good men use that every day well which bad men use ill And therefore I see not but we may do so with many things practised in the Roman Church Do not good men use the Name of God with Reverence which wicked men continually blaspheme Do we not refresh our selves with Meat and Drink of which many Debauched persons take a Surfeit Those fine Cloaths which some wear for pride do not others wear because they befit their Quality And to come nearer our business Those Prayers which some men mumble over others read devoutly and those Garments which some may use as holy others use as decent What should ail us then I ask you once again that we cannot rightly use those things which the Church of Rome abuses say those good Prayers for instarce in English which they say in Latine wear a white Garment without any Ceremony to consecrate it which they hallow with many Prayers and Crossing and Holy water Nay use the Sign of the Cross it self upon one occasion onely once after the Sacrament of Baptism and merely as a token the Child is already become a Servant of the Crucified Jesus which they use upon all occasions before and in Baptism

Service N. C. What part should that be C. The Entrance or Beginning of his Prayer When he speaks very slow as if he was studying what to say and draws out his words with a low Voice and with a small degree of Vehemence and little or no Motion then I say I believe your Affections are low too and you feel not your heart much moved But when his Voice begins to rise especially if he lift it up on a sudden and it break out like a Clap of Thunder and when he speaks more fluently his Zeal begins to kindle and he lays about him and is full of life as you call it that is uses a great deal of Action then is the time if the truth were known that your Affections stir and begin to rise from the bottom of your Heart where they lay heavy and dull before Then you sigh and groan and perhaps weep and are put into many Passions which lay quiet enough till his Breath blew lowder Is not this the plain truth N. C. What then C. Then you are no more affected with the Prayers of your Minister as they are pious Petitions or Acknowledgments of God than you are with our Common-Prayer But only with the Voice the Vehemency the Action the pretty Fancies and fine Phrases which perhaps he lights upon when he is a little heated which were it my case 't would make me suspect the Love of God was not in me For why should he think he loves God who is not moved with Affection to him when he hears his Greatness Goodness Wisdom and Benefits to us soberly and gravely expressed but is in a great Commotion when he meets with a new Word that pleases him or a kind Phrase or melting Tone a sweet Voice or some such thing N. C. I hope it is something else that affects me C. If it be then pray tell me why should not the Common-Prayer affect you whose sense is good enough only it is not varied and dressed up in new words every day I beseech you try your Heart by examining the Book considering whether those very things be not requested of God there which you desire in your Prayers and if they be then demand of your self a Reason why they move you no more I doubt you will find it is because they are not new but old Expressions N. C. I will consider of it at leisure C. To help you a little take this along with you which will go near to convince you that if it be not the Voice and Tone it is the Novelty which affects you Suppose one of the Prayers of your own Ministers which you think is indicted by the Spirit was taken in short-hand writing and afterward used every day in the Service of God as often as our Prayers are Tell me seriously do you not think it would seem very flat at last fuller of nauceous Repetitions and faulty Expressions than you conceive to be in the Common-Prayer N. C. You put a hard Question to me C. I see you are inclined to be of my mind and therefore pray consider these two things First That since even a Prayer which you think so heavenly would not affect you alway if it were alway used it is to be feared you are moved only while Prayers are new and indeed because they are new not because they are good pious Petitions And Secondly that since it is convenient if not necessary to have a Form of Prayer in the Church and the Common-Prayer hath no other Imperfection but what those whom you so much admire would have were they constantly used as it is why should you not like it as well as any especially since it is established by publick Authority N. C. I will consider of it as I said before But I wish you had seen a Book as I perceive you have many of ours newly come out which supposes your Service-Book hath been abused to Superstition and Idolatry and therefore must be abolish'd C. He doth well to suppose it and not to undertake the proof of it What is the name of the Book N. C. Nehushtan C. I have had a short sight of it as it creeps up and down privately N. C. What do you think of it C. I will tell you first what I think of you N. C. Why what is the matter C. You seem to be in a most dangerous condition for you are infected as I told you already with the extravagant Fancies of a number of other Sects with whom you are blended And in all likelihood you will have such new Inventions or rather Frenzies every year as will at last destroy your selves as well as us Some of your Ministers for instance acknowledg that the Liturgy is lawful to be used and can read it themselves Others there are that think it lawful but not convenient for men of their Parts and Gifts whose Ministry which it seems is of great Necessity Benefit they conceive would be thereby rendred less useful Then there is a third sort who are gone farther and doubt of its Lawfulness So that they dare not be present at it though they are content others should who think it lawful And now here is a man thinks no body ought to hear it nor be suffered to use such a Form of Worship but though the Magistrate ought to tolerate you yet he ought not to tolerate us For he saith It is his Duty utterly to extirpate the Liturgy as well as the Ceremonies And every one of you in your places ought to do your parts towards the abolishing of it and not sit still in the midst of such Defilements and Snares but discover your hatred of them decline their use and in such ways as Prudence Justice and Order do allow Endeavour the rooting of them out Whether you will go next God only knows And God help the poor Children of the Church of England who when all so boldly challenge Liberty and Toleration must be the only Persons excluded from this Favour and according to this Gentleman be denied the use of the Common-Prayer when every body else may pray what he list N. C. You must be content if he have Evinced as he tells us he hath in his Title page That the Liturgy Ceremonies and other things used at this day in the Church of England ought neither to be imposed nor retained but utterly extirpated and laid aside And he pretends in his Epistle to have said more in this Argument than ever was said before C. He doth so and imagins he can weild an old rotten Engine that hath been long laid aside better than former Workmen who were but Bunglers in compare with this Artist For he doubts not to manage it so as to throw down the whole Fabrick of the English Church N. C. What Engine do you mean C. It is this Principle That it is the will and pleasure of God that such things as have been abused and polluted in Superstitions and Idolatrous Services should

a Separation and one thing more desire to learn of them which is whether those things that any of them have suffered be not the Effect and Punishment of their separation and not the Cause of it As for any Restraints the Law hath laid upon their Liberty they are nothing comparable to those that were laid on us when they were in Power and yet they will take it ill if they should be called Persecutors For if you look into an Ordinance of Parliament of 11. August 1645. for putting in execution the Directory you will find these words That if any person or persons whatsoever shall at any time or times hereafter use or cause the aforesaid Book of common-Common-Prayer to be used in any Church Chappel or publick place of Worship or in any private place or Family within the Kingdom of England or the Dominion of Wales or Port and ●own of Berwick every such person so offending ●herein shall for the first offence pay the sum ●f five pounds of lawful English money for the second offence ten pounds and for the third shall suffer one whole year Imprisonment without Bail or Mainprise Can you name me any Law now extant so severe and cruel as this was Do we abridge the poorest Tradesman so much of his liberty as then they would have abridg'd all the Nobles in the Land nay for any thing I see the KING himself at least his Family which were forbid the use of Common-Prayer under such great Penalties Are you not all allow'd to worship God just as you please your selves in your own Families Nay may not some of your Neighbours joyn with you if you and they be so minded For shame do not complain of Persecution when you are so kindly used who endeavoured in such a manner to oppress others And blush to think that you should separate upon this account which yet is all that you can have the face to pretend to excuse the Schism you have made The Common-Prayer you see was never imposed with such rigor as your Directory was And whereas you now take what liberty you list to preach and Write and print what you think good against the Common-Prayer it was then ordain'd that none should do so against the Directory or any thing contain'd therein which is a great deal more and in case any man was so bold he was to forfeit such a sum of money as should be thought fit to be imposed on him by those before whom he had his Trial provided it was not less than five pounds nor more than fifty Who should try him no body knew but he was sure to meet with little favour if the Directory-men met with him and were to handle him who would tolerate no Dissenters from them And their reason is given in the London Ministers Letter to the Assembly because they were bound by the Covenant to extirpate all Scism and to indeavour the Lord should be one and his Name one in the Three Kingdoms i. e. that all should subscribe to the Directory And there is another thing which to me seems something hard I am sure you ought to judg it so viz. an Ordinance of 2. June 1646. requiring that all people who were come to reside in the Parliament-Quarters should take the National League and Covenant and the Negative Oath notwithstanding any Articles that had been made by the Souldiery Why should you complain of the late Oxford Act as it is commonly called who could endure heretofore that men should be used so severely Compare that and this Ordinance together and tell me which of them is most moderate that which banished men out of many Counties or that which only prohibits their near habitation to a Town or two that which made void the promises which their own Officers had made or that which was against no ingagements at all I wish you would consider these things with a great many more of like nature for though your prejudices are strong I hope sometime they may serve to convince you And the mention of the Covenant just now brings a considerable thing to my mind which if it would not be tedious I would willingly propound and desire you to enquire about it N. C. I pray say on for your discourse begins to be pleasant to me C. I wish you would ask your Ministers why they themselves heretofore not onely approved of certain Ceremonies in the Worship of God but also were well pleased they should be enjoyn'd and yet now cry out upon our Ceremonies or at least would have them left at liberty N. C. What Ceremonies and Worship do you mean C. Was not the taking of the Solemn League and Covenant a piece of Religion N. C. Yes it was an Oath C. Read then an Ordinance of 2. Febr. 1643. ☜ and you will find it is ordain'd among other things that during the time that the Minister read the whole Covenant to the people the whole Congregation should be uncovered There is one Ceremony which now you will by no means indure should be imposed on you at the hearing of Sermons Then at the end of the Reading it they appoint that all shall take it standing There is another Ceremony And lastly that they should lift up their right hand bare That 's another if not two Ceremonies more For they enjoyn them to lift up the right Hand not the left and that it should be bare not covered with a Glove And this very Ordinance touching the Manner of the taking the Covenant they desired might be confirm'd by Act of Parliament as you may see in the Propositions sent to his Majesty at Newcastle July 11. 1646. Pray tell me if you can or else make enquiry why they did not leave men to their way and manner of doing this Religious Act seeing they would have no body tied to a Posture now in the Worship of God N. C. I will enquire For I know no reason of it C. If you please ask them another thing which is why they do not take their own Advice which they give about the Covenant For if they would the Covenant need not keep them from doing that which otherwise many of them profess they could do N. C. You must be at the pains to interpret your self for I know not what you intend C. The Parliament in the Ordinance now mentioned desire the Assembly of Divines to prepare an Exhortation for the better taking of the Covenant which should be read together with it Now in that Exhortation which was voted to be printed Febr. 9. 1643. the Assembly intreat the Episcopal Clergy who said they could not take the Covenant because it was against their former Oaths to consider this which is the thing I would have them consider now That if any Oath be found into which any Minister or others have entred not warranted by the Law of God and the Land in this Case they must teach themselves and others that such Oaths call for Repentance not Pertinacy