breed a conceit in very many that an Enquiry after Truth is both difficult and fruitless And therefore they often chuse rather to despair with ease than to labour as they fancy without any hope of Success Whereas these shorter Conferences will either satisfie them sooner or at least more easily engage them in so necessary a search There are several other Reasons which might be alledged to the same purpose but I think these are sufficient to convince the World that if Mr. G should prefer a personal Conference to the Writing of Books as I hope he will it would not be any Tergiversation but the choice of the best and most useful way of deciding Controversies and particularly this And since you are now become the Challenger he ought according to the Laws of Duel to chuse his Weapon or manner of Fight Hitherto I have found fault with you and now perhaps it will not be amiss if I acknowledge an Error or Weakness of my own which is that at first I imagin ed my self to have found a great advantage against you by a Reflection which I and several others made on the perusal of your two Propositions viz. That in your first you seem to affirm that the Tradition of all Christian Churches which speaking in general you call in your Disputation the Christian Church is a ground of Absolute Certainty for the admittance of Scripture And in your Second you would infer That Tradition is no infallible Conveyance of Matters of Faith. Now supposing it a Matter of Faith that all the Books of Scripture owned by you were inspired by the Holy Ghost that is are true Scripture as I presume you will not deny I do not see but your Propositions contradict one another and we have once more Dr. St. against Dr. St. viz. Tradition the ground of Absolute Certainty on the one hand and no infallible Conveyance on the other I must confess I say that I looked on this Implication as manifest to that degree that it would not be easie for you to get clear of it but when I considered how great a Talent you have of reconciling what we ordinary Folks account Contradictions and how evident you have already made it That a Church may be true and yet Idolatrous and that Roman Catholics may be saved and yet by being Roman Catholics must be guilty of Sins inconsistent with Salvation I thought it more advisable to let this new seeming Contradiction pass Muster than to offer an occasion for more Volumes of that kind However you must give me leave to tell you that when you have sufficiently proved the first of these Propositions which if any Body's is truly your Task viz. That Tradition is a ground of absolute Certainty for the receiving of the Scripture It is ten to one but you furnish Mr. G with Arguments to prove the Second which is his Province viz. That Tradition is an Infallible Conveyance of Matters of Faith. I hope my Readers will not imagin by what they find here that I have any purpose of being engaged in these Disputations It would be too great an Arrogance for me to pretend either to succeed Mr. G or to oppose Dr. St And therefore I have medled with the Controversie no farther than I thought it necessary to the clearing of Matter of Fact by shewing as well as I could how the Disputations were carried on how they ended what still remained to be proved by both Sides and to what manner of Proving viz. Whether by Personal Conference or otherwise they seemed to be obliged In a word my Design hath been nothing else than as far as I have been able to rescue Mr. G from those Imputations which your Accusation and Challenge would bring upon him till such time as he himself may have an opportunity of doing it more fully by his own Pen. But I suppose enough is shewed already to convince the World that if in the Conference the Victory lay on your side you were not much mistaken when you thought it not worth boasting of You seem to many of your Readers to lay some stress on Mr. G's going to Coffee-Houses and your not going to them as if therefore the more Credit were to be given to you and the less to him But I do not think that you could have any such meaning when I find you had your main Intelligence concerning Mr. G's behaviour from those Houses and consequently by such persons as made no scruple of visiting them whom I presume you would not believe so easily and thoroughly as you do did you esteem them the less credible for those visits I know many Lies are told in Coffee-houses but if all places were to be avoided wherein Lies are told I am afraid that Dr. St would run the hazard of being silenced for want of a Pulpit which might be ventur'd on Certainly it is no Crime to go to Coffee-houses tho' I confess to talk in them as many do is a very great one But instead of this if any one should as far as Prudence and Opportunity will give way divert those Discourses from what is Seditious Idle or Profane to that which is serious and useful either for this life or the next he would be so far from committing a fault that he would prevent many and perhaps by leaving some good impression or other in those he converses with do a greater Service to the Common-wealth and to Almighty God than if he had kept at home But this is a kind of Missionary Zeal and therefore what the Children of the Reformation are little acquainted with However forasmuch as concerns the Coffee-Houses we have far more in them of Dr. St's Coat than of Mr. G's But whether with any better motive than that of entertaining and recreating themselves I will not determine And therefore if it pass for loosness or want of due Gravity to visit a Coffee-house I desire Dr. St to tell me what Spirit leads so many of his own Brethren thither But some people so they may strike those whom they take for their Enemies care not if at the same time they fall foul on their Friends But for such as cry so often What have we to do with Religion in a Coffee-house I would fain know of them whether or no it be lawful to visit any Place or Conversation where it will be improper to Honor God or Edifie our Neighbor For my part I think it is not And therefore if a Coffee-house be a place wherein Religion is not to be medled with I shall be of Dr. St's mind if his mind be such and conclude That it ought not to be visited But because I remember that during the Conference you complain'd of want of Time which as I should have told you was also a principal occasion of Mr. T 's hast it will not be fit that I should detain you much longer And therefore to the mean Opinion which you seem to express of your Adversary I shall only say that methinks you ought not to make us think so poorly of our selves whilst you endeavour to perswade us that we have no need of any Guide in the most Mysterious Things since nothing can be a greater Argument for the necessity of Direction than the sight of our own Weakness Wherefore if you please let us compound the Business We will be contented to pass for Weak and Ignorant and you shall be obliged to shew by whom we may be protected from Error It being most uncomfortable to be shewn that we ought not to trust our Reason and to be told that we ought And I question not but you will effectually perform this whenever you comply with what appears to be your Task already and give us some distinguishing Mark for the finding out those Christians on whose Tradition we may safely rely for the reception of the Holy Scriptures since if we may venture on * S. Aug. libro contra Epist Fundamenti Ego verò Evangelio non crederem nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret Authoritas Quibus ergo obtemperavi dicentibus Credite Evangelio cur eis non obtemperem dicentibus mihi Noli credere Manichaeo c. St. Augustins Judgment it would be a Madness to disbelieve those in any other Matter of Faith whom we believe in so important a Point Tell us then from whom we are to receive the Scriptures and we will not ask you to whom we ought to go for Certainty in other Doctrins I have but one thing more to acquaint you with which is that tho' I have shewn that the Answering your Challenge hath nothing to do with our present Dispute and that even for the finishing of the first Controversies I like Conferring better than Writing yet there are some amongst us who think that you ought not to want your satisfaction even in that way which you will suppose the least liable to the injury of false Copies And consequently your Objection concerning the Greek Church is undertaken which being the Argument you seem fondest of and that which you have pickt out of the whole Conference to flourish with in your Letter I promise my self that my News will be very grateful to you and here in the Close make some kind of amends for any Term or Expression which through my attending oftentimes more to the nature of the Things treated of than to the Dignity of the Person with whom I treat may have slipt from my Pen less agreeing with that Respect wherewith I desire to continue SIR Your most humble Servant E. M. London March 28. 1687.
he aimed at the Glory of a Conqueror by those Papers since you cannot but see that according to the Tenor of them the Victory lies on neither Side I say this on presumption that those Papers which came to your hands were true Copies of that which was given out by Mr. G But because it may be otherwise and that a great part of your Spleen on this Occasion may be raised by a mistake I shall here subjoin a true Copy of Mr. G 's Paper And that you may examine the Fidelity of it with more Convenience a Copy likewise of your own which I had from a Protestant Gentleman of great worth and integrity shall be set down by it in a Parallel Column That on a due Comparison and maturer thoughts you may judge whether Mr. G in truth deserve so black a Note of insincerity as you are pleased to lay upon him or on the other side you be obliged to make some amends for an ungentile and unchristian Insinuation Mr. G s Copy Dr. St 's Copy 1 Qu. VVHether you are absolutely Certain that you hold now the same Tenets in Faith and all that our Saviour taught to his Apostles 1 Qu. VVHether you are absolutely certain that you hold now the same Tenets in Faith and all that our Saviour taught to his Apostles 1 Answ We are absolutely certain that we now hold all the same Doctrin that was taught by Christ and his Apostles 1 Answ We are absolutely certain that we now hold all the same Doctrin that was taught by Christ and his Apostles 2 Qu. By what certain Rule do you hold it 2 Qu. By what certain Rule do you hold it 2 Answ By the Divine Revelations contained in the writings of the New Testament 2 Answ By the Divine Revelations contained in the writings of the New Testament 3 Qu. By what certain Rule do you know that the New Testament we now have does contain all the Divine Revelations of Christ and his Apostles 3 Qu. By what certain Rule do you know that the New Testament which we now have does contain all the Divine Revelations of Christ and his Apostles 3 Answ By the Universal Testimony of the Christian Church from the Apostles time downwards 3 Answ By the Universal Testimony of the Christian Church from the Apostles time downward 4 Qu. Was that Vniversal Testimony an Infallible Rule to assure us certainly down to our time that the New Testament contained all the Divine Revelations of Christ and his Apostles 4 Qu. Was that Universal Testimony an Infallible Rule to assure us certainly down to our time that the New Testament contained all the Divine Revelations of Christ and his Apostles 4 Answ The Vniversal Testimony of the Christian Church concerning the Book of Scripture and the Doctrin contained therein is a sufficient ground to make us certain of all matters that are necessary for our Salvation 4 Answ The Universal Testimony of the Christian Church concerning the Book of Scripture and the Doctrin contained therein is a sufficient ground to make us certain of all matters that are necessary to our Salvation 5 Qu. Being the word Christian Church may be taken in several Latitudes by persons of different Religions I desire to know how you desine the Christian Church Or what it is whose Testimony is sufficient to make us absolutely certain of all matters that are necessary to our Salvation 5 Qu. Being the words Christian Church may be taken in several Latitudes by persons of different Religions I desire to know what that Christian Church is whose Testimony concerning the Book of Scripture and the Doctrin contained therein is a sufficient ground to make us certain of all matters that are necessary to our Salvation 5 Answ By the Universal Testimony of the Christian Church concerning the Books of Scripture which are our Rule of Faith as to matters of our Salvation I mean the Vniversal Testimony of all Christian Churches from the Apostles downward 5 Answ By the Universal Testimony of the Christian Church concerning the Books of Scripture which are our Rule of Faith as to matters of Salvation I mean the Universal consent of all Christian Churches from the Apostles time downward  Here Mr. T the Person for whom the Conference was being well satisfied in the Doctors Answers desired to ask Mr. G some Questions saying he was confirmed in the Truth of his own Church and therefore demanded how he proved theirs You have here the whole and entire Writings of the first longest and most Methodical Controversie as well according to Mr. G s Edition as your own wherein the difference is so trivial that I dare appeal even to your own subtilty who are as apt to find a Knot in a Bulrush as another whether or no you have here any cause for complaint And his exactness in this Copy ought to have been an Argument with you that such Errors as you found in the other were rather to be attributed to the Confusion wherein that second Dispute ended or some other Accident than to any wilful falsification unless perhaps you imagined that the issue of the first Dispute was such as that Mr. G could have no temptation for any Forgery in the account of it which is not greatly for your Credit since this Dispute as I have said was that for which the Conference was designed and that wherein the whole time in a manner was taken up it being carried on as far as you were pleased to give it leave At the end of that Copy of your Paper which I received from the abovementioned Protestant Gentleman I found these words Here Mr. T. the person for whom the Conference was being well satisfied in the Doctors Answers c. And therefore I have likewise added them in this Transcript left I also might pass with you for a Disperser of imperfect Copies tho' I think the Gentleman told me that those words were only his own Memorandum of what you imparted to him by word of Mouth concerning that Dispute And this too I say left on the other hand you should arraign me for any Addition So scrupulously careful it behoves a man to be when for the punishment of his Sins he falls into those circumstances where not only the least inadvertence is improved into a crime but even when nothing else will serve the turn the clearest innocence is render'd guilty And now to shew the World how willing I am to do you all the right imaginable I must freely acknowledge that Mr. T at the end of your last Answer in this Dispute as he had done a Question or two before declared according to what is set down in the abovewritten Memorandum that he was fully satisfied with your Answers Neither did Mr. G ever pretend the contrary But then I hope in return you will give us and others leave to judge who give every man leave to judge in things of far greater consequence and difficulty how far this satisfaction of Mr. T
was rational and what grounds he had for it I am sure that several ingenious Protestant Gentlemen having perused this Paper said That Mr. T was very easily satisfied To conclude your Answers lie before the Reader and he may judge of them himself But since you are so careful that people should understand what was spoken by Mr. T at the end of this first Dispute it is but just that you should give me leave to let them know what was likewise spoken by Mr. G tho it be not written down in these Copies You may remember that when Mr. G put his Third Question to you Viz. By what certain Rule do you know that the New Testament which we now have does contain all the Divine Revelations of Christ and his Apostles And you Answered By the Vniversal Testimony of the Christian Church from the Apostles time downward Mr. G pressed you that whereas you said from the Apostles time downward you would declare how far downward you meant it whether down to our times or not You told him That your Answer was already given and that he might make the best of it Now as you say in your Letter That Mr. G took care in the Conference to keep you from expecting any great Ingenuity from him so if I am not mistaken this odd Behaviour gave him also a sufficient Warning of what he was to expect from you it being a Proceeding which look'd more like a Search after Victory or Evasion than Truth But to go on Your refusal of so reasonable a Desire instead of confounding Mr. G or putting him out of the Road as perhaps you thought it might have done oblig'd him to the following Question and this Question drew from you that Answer which you had refus'd before Here it was that Mr. T declar'd somwhat more earnestly how fully he was satisfi'd with your Answers saying somwhat to this purpose by way of a Recapitulation That Mr. G had Asked How the Protestants knew certainly that they held the same Faith that was Taught by Christ and his Apostles It was Answer'd By the Scriptures And it being Asked How they certainly knew they had the right Scriptures It was Answer'd By the Vniversal Testimony of the Christian Church Which he look'd on as a most ample Satisfaction and therefore press'd that the Controversie might end and you were so far of his Mind that I remember you urg'd it to be most reasonable that he for whose sake the Conference was desir'd should determine when it ought to be given over Which indeed had been plausible enough had not the progress that was made in the Controversie been so very little and had it not been evident to you that the Point naturally led to several Difficulties which tho' it were not necessary for Mr. T s Satisfaction who I suppose brought it with him to the Conference yet it would have become so great a Man at Contraversie as you I do not say Would be but are taken for to remove For whereas Mr. G s Third Question was By what certain Rule you knew that the New Testament we now have contain'd all the Divine Revelations of Christ and his Apostles And you Answer'd That it was by the Vniversal Testimony of the Christian Church To say nothing of the difference in Translations as well as in the Number of the Books it is to be explain'd how you understand that all the Divine Revelations are contain'd in the New Testament viz. Whether you mean that all necessary Articles of Faith are contain'd in the New Testament virtually and implicitly and so as that all or at least some of them stand in need of the Churches Interpretation and Authority for being made known to us which Meaning will do you little Service or else that all such Articles are contain'd in it clearly and explicitly and so as that they are evident to every sober Enquirer which is the Doctrin you commonly Teach Now it is most apparent that you are not aâ—sur'd by the Universal Testimony of the Christian Church that all the Divine Revelations of Christ and his Apostles are contain'd after this last manner in the New Testament since all those Churches in Communion with Rome and divers others positively affirm the contrary So that if the Absolute Certainty of the Entireness of your Faith have no other Ground than a pretended Universal Testimony of the Christian Church that all necessary Articles are plainly and explicitly contain'd in the New Testament and that in reality there be no such Universal Testimony as it is undeniable there is none it necessarily follows that your Absolute Certainty is wholly groundless You see Sir how main a Point ought to have been spoken to before you and Mr. G had taken your leaves of this Subject But Mr. G waving this necessary Branch of the Controversie for that present was willing to understand first what you meant by your Vniversal Testimony and how far it extended He therefore press'd you to know what you meant by the Christian Church on whose Testimony you rely'd Here Mr. T once more profess'd his Satisfaction and you again thought he had so much cause for it that you were very loth the Disputation should proceed any farther But being told That seeing we were to receive the Rule of our Faith from the Testimony of the Christian Church it was but reasonable that we should know what that Christian Church was to which we ought to have recourse especially since there were so many different Opinions concerning it you were at length content that Mr. G should set down his Fifth Question which was thus Being the Words Christian Church may be taken in divers Latitudes by Persons of different Religions I desire to know what that Christian Church is whose Testimony concerning the Book of Scripture and the Doctrin contain'd therein is a sufficient Ground to make us certain of all Matters that are necessary to our Salvation I put in the Words of your own Copy Here we expected as I suppose all my Readers would have done that you would have given us a Definition or Description of the Christian Church But instead of this you tell us That by the Vniversal Testimony of the Christian Church c. you mean the Consent of all Christian Churches from the Apostles Time downward Was not this Trifling Who doubts but that the Christian Church in general must consist of all Christian Churches in particular Mr. G s Intention was as you might easily see to know what Churches in this Proposition you accounted Christian Churches i.e. Parts of the Universal Christian Church Whether you took in all those Congregations who made any Profession of Believing in Christ or requir'd somewhat more and what it was you requir'd for the Qualifying them for particular Christian Churches or Parts of the Universal Christian Church And therefore expresly he asked you Whether you included the Arians Nestorians Eutychians and Calvinists and urg'd that this Question might likewise be written down