penknife of Apoccrypha Ruffinus challengeth him for so doing and tells him of the gap that he hath opened for wild beasts to enter into this field of the Church and tread down all ill corn Jerom gives his reasons because they were not found in the Originall Copie as if the same spirit which gave to those whom it did inspire the diversities of tongues should it self be tied to one language but withall he acknowledgeth this much of those books which he had thus markt in the forehead Canonici sunt ad informandos mores sed non ad confirmandam fidem how poor a Distinction this is and how pernitious a president this was I leave it to Your Majestie to judge for after him Luther takes the like boldness and at once takes away the three Gospels of Mark Luke and John Others take away the epistle to the Hebrews others the epistle of Saint Jude others the second and third epistles of Saint Peter others the epistle of Saint James others the whole book of the Revelation Wherefore to permit what the Church proposes to be questionable by particular men is to bring down the Church the Scriptures and the Heavens upon our heads there was a Church before there was a Scripture which Scripture as to us had not been the Word of God if the Church had not made it so by teaching us to believe it The preaching of the Gospel was before the writing of the Gospell the Divine Truth that dispersed it self over the face of the whole earth before i'ts Divinitie was comprised within the Cannon of the Scripture was like that Primeva Lux which the world received before the light was gathered into the body of the Sun this body so glorious and comfortable is but the same light which was before we cannot make it an other though it be otherwise and therefore though the Church and the Scripture like the light that is concomitant and precedent to the Sun be distinct in tearms yet they are but one the same no man can see the Sun but by it's own light shut your eyes from this light and you cannot behold the body of the Sun Shut your eyes against one and you are blind in both he never had God to be his Father who had not the Church to be his Mother if you admit Sillogismes a priori you will meet with many paralogismes a posteriori cry down the Churches Authoritie pull out the Scriptures efficacie give but the Church the lie now and then and you shall have enough will tell you the Scripture is false here and there they who have set so little by the tradition of the Church have set by halfe the Scriptures and will at last throw all away wherefore in a word as to denie any part of the Scripture were to open a vain so to question any thing which the Church proposes is to teare the seamlesse Coat of Christ and to pierce his body King My Lord I see you are better provided with Arguments then I am with memorie to run through the series of your Discourse satisfie me but in one thing and I shall soone yield to all that you have said and that is concerning this Catholick Church you talke of I know the creed tels us that we must believe it and Christ tells us that we must hear it but neither tell us that that is the Church of Rome Marq. Gratious Sir the creed tells us that it is the Catholick Church and Saint Paul tells us in his epistle to the Romans that their faith was spread abroad through the whole world King That was the Faith which the Romanes then believed which is nothing to the Roman Faith which is now believed Marq. The Romane Faith then and now are the same King I denie that my Lord. Marq. When did they alter their Faith King That requires a librarie neither is it requisite that I tell you the time when if the envious man sowes his tares whilst the husband-man was asleep and afterwards he awakes and sees the tares are they not tares because the hushand-man knowes not when they were sown Marq. And if it please Your Majestie in a thing that is so apparent your similitude holds good but in the differences between us and the protestants are not so without dispute as that it is yet granted by the major part of Christians that they are errours which we believe contrary to Your Tenents and therefore the similitude holds not but I shall humbly intreat Your Majestie to consider the proofes which the learned Cardinal Peroone hath made concerning this particular in his answer to Your Royall Father his Apologie to all Christian Princes where he proves how that all the Tenents which are in controversie now between you and us were practised in the Church of Christ within the first three hundred years wherefore I think it would be no injury to reason to require belief that that which hath been so long continued in the Church and so universaly received and no time can be set down when those Tenents or Ceremonies did arise must needs be Catholick for time and place and Apostolical for institution though we have no warrant from the Scriptures to believe them to be such For the Apostle Saint Paul commanded Timothy to keep fast the things which he had delivered unto him as well by word as by writ Wherefore if we will believe no tradition we may come at last to believe no writings King That was your own fault wherefore I blame your Church for the way to make the Scriptures not believed were to adde unto them new inventions and say they were Scriptures Marq. If the Church of Christ had so mean esteeme then as amongst some she hath now certainly the former books received into her Cannon would have been much prejudiced by the admittance of the latter wherefore if the Church be questionable then all is brought in question King My Lord you have not satisfied me where this Church is and as concerning the Cardinals book I have seen it and have read a part of it but do not remember neither do I believe that he hath prov'd that which you say Marq. It may be the proofes were in that part of the book which Your Majestie did not read and as for my proving the Romane Church to be this Church by which we should be all guided I thus shall do my endeavour That Church whose Doctrine is most Catholick and universall must be the Catholick Church but the Romane Church is such Ergo. King My Lord I denie your Minor the Romane Church is not more universall the Grecian Church is far more spreading and if it were not it were no Argument for the Church of the Mahumetanes is larger then both Marq. First This is no Argument either for an English Man or a Protestant but for a Grecian or Mahumetane not for an English Man because he received his Conversion from Rome and therefore he in Reason should not
setting down things more obscurely There is no particular point of Doctrine in the holy Scripture so manifestly set down as that concerning the Church and the Markes thereof nothing set down more copious and perspicuous then the visibility perpetuitie and amplitude of the Church So that Saint Augustin did not stick to say that the Scriptures were more clear about the Church then they were about Christ. Let him answer for it He said so in his book de unitate Ecclesiae and this he said was the reason because God in his wisedome would have the Church to be described without any ambiguity that all Controversies about the Church may be clearly decided wherehy questions about particular Doctrines may find determinations in her judgement and that Visibility might shew the way unto the most rude and ignorant and I know not any Church to whom it may more justly be attributed then to the Church of Rome whose Faith as in the beginning was spread through the whole world so all along and at this day it is generally known among all nations Next to this I prove the Catholick Church to be the Romane because a lawfull succession of Pastors is required in every true Church according to the Prophet Esay his Prophecie concerning her viz. My Spirit which is upon thee and the words which I have put into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed from henceforth for ever This succession I can find onely in the Church of Rome This Succession they onely can prove none else offering to go about it This Succession Saint Augustin sayes kept him in that Church viz. a Succession of Priests from the very seat of Peter the Apostle to the present Bishop of his time And Optatus Milevitanus recons all the Romane Bishops from Saint Peter to Syricius who then was Pope and by this he shewed and made it his Argument that the true Church was not with the Donatists bidding them to shew the Originall of their Chayre this no Protestant did or ever can do The Romane Church gave the English Bishops Commission to preach the Doctrine of Christ as they have delivered it unto them but they never gave them any Commission to preach against her Religion which Bishops being turned out for observing the depositum wherewith they were instructed and new Bishops chosen in their room by her who not contenting her self with being a nursing mother thereof must needs be head of the child and moderatrix in the same Church wherein by the Apostles precept she is forbidden to speak the Succession was broke off the branch cut off from the body becoming no part of the tree sit for nothing but to be chopt into smaller pieces and so fitted for the fire this proofe of Succession the Bishops of England thought so necessary for proving their Church to be the true Church that they affirmed themselves to be consecrated by Catholick Bishops their Predecessors wbich never proved argues the interruption and affirming it shewes how that in their own opinion the Succession could not hold in the inferiour Ministers as indeed it cannot for as there is a continued supply of Embassadours in all places yet the Succession is in the royall race so though all vacancies are replenished by Ministers of the Gospel yet the Succession of the Authority was in the Bishops as descended to them from the Apostles according to our Saviours rule I will be with you alwayes unto the end of the world Which Affirmation of theirs argues that their calling is insufficient without it and in that they would faine derive it from the Church of Rome it argues that that is the true Church and yet they would forsake her supposing her to have errors when that Reformation it self was but a Supposition for seeing they hold that their Church may erre they can be certain of nothing and whilst for errors sake they forsake the Church of Rome the Church of England in forsaking her may be in the greatest error of all where there is neither Succession nor assurance I must leave her to her self and Your Majestie to judge Next I prove the Romane Church to be the true Church by her unity in Doctrine for so the Apostle Paul requires all the Churches children to be of one mind viz. I beseech you that all speak one thing Be ye knit together in one mind and one Judgement 1. Cor. 1. Endeavouring to keep the unitie of the Spirit in the bond of peace Ephes 4. 3. The multitude of them that believed were of one heart of one soul Act. 4. 32. Continue in one spirit and one mind of one accord and one judgement Phil. 1. 27. Phil. 2. 2. So our Saviour prayeth that they may be one So Joseph forewarned his brethren that they should not fall out by the way knowing that whilst they were with him he could order them when they came to their father he could order them but having no head they should be apt to dissentious This Vnity I find no where but in the Church of Rome agreeing in all things which the Church of Rome hath determined for Doctrine whereas the Protestant Doctrine like the heresie of Simon Magus divided it self into severall Sects and to that of the Donatists which were cut into small threds in so much that among the many Religions which are lately sprung up and the sub sub subdivisions under them each one pretending to be the true Protestant excluding the other and all of them together no more likely to be bound up in the bond of peace then a bundle of thornes can expect binding with a rope of sand In vaine is their excuse if non-disagreement in fundamentalls for they dis-agree amongst themselves about the Sacrament for the Lutherans hold Consubstantiation but the Church of England no such matter Some that Christ descended into hell others not The Church of England maintaine their King to be the head of the Church The Helvetians will acknowledge no such matter the Presbyterians will acknowledge no such matter the Independent will acknowledge no such matter Concerning the Government of the Church by Bishops some Protestants maintaine it to be Jure Divino others to be Jure Ecclesiastico others no such matter Some thinks that the English translations of the Bible in some places takes away in other places addes and other-some places changes the meaning of the holy Ghost and some think it no such matter or else the Bishops would not have recommended Lincol. min. to K. James pag. 11. 13. it unto the people Lastly they are so far from agreeing about the true meaning of the word of God that they cannot agree upon what is the word of God For Lutherans deny the second Epistle of Saint Peter the second and third Chem. Ex. Contr. Trid. part 1. pag. 55 Also Eucher p. 63. Epistle of Saint John the Epistle to the Hebr.
thy Covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is water by this pit could not be meant the place of the damned for they have no share in the Covenant neither are they Christs prisoners but the devils neither could this pit be the grave because Christs grave was a new pit where never any was laid before The Fathers affirm as much Saint Hier in 4. ad Ephes Saint Greg. li. 13. Moral ca. 20. Saint Aug. in Psal 3. 7. v. 1. We hold purgatory fire where satisfaction shall be made for sinnes after death you deny it we have Scripture for it 1 Gor 3. 13. 15. The fire shall try every mans work of what sort it is if any mans work shall de burnt he shall suffer losse but he himselfe shall be saved yet so as by fire Saint Aug so interprets this place upon the 37. Psalme also Saint Amb upon 1 Cor 3. and Ser 20. in Ps 118. Saint Hier lib. 2. chap 13. ad vers Joan Saint Greg li 4. dialog ca 39. Orig. hom 6. in ca 15. Exod. Lastly We hold extream Vnction to be a Sacrament you neither hold it be a Sacrament neither doe you practise it as a duty we have Scripture for it James 5. 13. Is any sick among you let him call the Elders of the Church and let them pray over him annointing him with oyle in the name of the Lord and the prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up and if he have committed sins they shall be forgiven him Neither any nor all the Sacraments were or could be more effectual mens good nor more substantiall in matter nor more exquisite in forme nor more punctuall in designation of its ministry other Sacraments being bounded within the limits of the souls only good this extends it self to the good both of soul and body he shall recover from his sicknesse and his sins shall be forgiven him and yet it is both left out in your practise and acknowledgment The Fathers are on our side Orig Hom 2. in Levit S. Chrys lib 3. de Sacerd S. Aug in speculo Ser 215. de temp Vener Bed in 6. Marke and S. James and many others Thus most Sacred SIR we have no reason to wave the Scriptures umpirage so that you will hear it speake in the mother language and not produce it as a witnesse on your side when the producers tell us nothing but their owne meaning in a language unknown to all the former ages and then tell us that shee saith so and they will have it so because he that hath a Bible and a sword shall carry away the meaning from him that hath a Bible and ne're a sword nor is it more blasphemy to say that the Scripture is the Churches off-spring because it is the word of God then it is for me to say I am the sonne of such a man because God made me instrumentally I am so and so was shee for as saith S. Aug Evangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae authoritas commoveret I should not believe the Gospel it self unlesse I were moved by the authority of the Church There was a Church before there was a Scripture take which Testament you please We grant you that the Scripture is the Originall of all light yet we see light before we see the Sun and we know there was a light when there was no Sun the one is but the body of the other We grant you the Scriptures to be the Celestiall globe but we must not grant you that every one knowes how to use it or that it is necessary or possible they should We grant that the Scripture is a light to our feet and a lanthorne to our paths then you must grant me that it is requisite that we have a guide or else we may lose our way in the light as well as in the darke We grant you that it is the food of our souls yet there must be some body that must divide or break the bread We grant you that it is the only antidote against the infection of the Devil yet it is not every ones profession to be a compounder of the ingredients We grant Your Majesty the Scripture to be the only sword and buckler to defend a Church from her Ghostly enemies yet I hope you will not have the glorious company of the Apostles and the goodly fellow ship of the Prophets to exclude the noble Army of Martyrs and the holy Church which through all the world doth acknowledge Christ wherefore having shewen Your Majesty how much the Scriptures are ours I shall now consider Your opinions apart from us and see how they are Yours and who sides with You in Your opinion besides Your selfe and first I shall crave the boldnesse to begin with the Protestants of the Church of England The Church of England WHose Religion as it is in opposition to ours consists altogether in denying for what she affirmes we affirme the same as the Real presence the infallibility visibility universality and unity of the Courch confession and remission of sins free-will and possibility of keeping the Commandments c. all these things you deny and you may as well deny the blessed Trinity for we have no such word in Scripture only inference then that which ye have already denied and for which we have plaine Scripture Fathers Councels practise of the Church Whereas matters of so weighty concernment as delivering of mens souls into the Devils hands should not be executed but upon mature deliberation and immergent occasions and not by any but those who have the undoubted authority lest otherwise you make the authority it self to be doubted of that which ye hold positive in your discipline is more erroneous then that which is negative in our Doctrine as your maintaining a woman to be Head Supreame or Moderatrix in the Church who by the Apostles rule is not to speak in the Church or that a Lay-man may be so what Scripture or Fathers or custome have ye for this or that a Lay-man as your Lay-Chancellours should Excommunicate and deliver up soules to Sathan a strange Religion whose Ministers are deny'd the power of remitting sins whilst Lay-men are admitted to the power of retaining them and that upon every ordinary occasion as non-payment of fees and the like Whereas such practises as these have rendred the rod of Aaron no more formidable then a reed shaken with the wind so that you have brought it to this that whilst such men as these were permitted to excommunicate for a three-peny matter the people made not a three-peny matter of their Evcommunication The Church of Saxony NOw for the Church of Saxony you shall find Luther a man not only obtruding new Doctrine upon his Disciples without Scripture or contrary to Scripture but also Doctrine denying Scripture to be Scripture and vilipending those books of Scripture which were received into the Canon and acknowledged to be
Tom 2. Germ fol 190. 200. No marvail that he saith that he had eaten a peck or two of Salt with the Devil and that he knew the Devil very well and that the Devil knew him again h Luth conc de turb sedant No marvail that he confessed of himselfe that the Devil sometimes passed through his brains i Tom 3. Ien Germ fol 485. No marvail that he said the Devil did more frequently sleep with him and cling to him closer then his catharine k Luth Colloq mens Germ fol 281. No marvail that he said that the Devil walked with him in his bed-chamber and that he had one or two wonderfull Devils by whom he was diligently and carefully served and they no small Devils but great ones yea Doctors of divinity amongst the Devils l Luth. 16. fol 275. No marvell that his fellow Prot. could wonder how marvelously he bewrayed himselfe with his Devils and that he could use such filthy words so replenished with all the Devils in Hell m Tigur tract 3 cont supra Luth confessio No marvell that they said that never any man writ more filthily more uncivilly more lewdly and beyond all bounds of Christian modesty then did Luther n Tigur theol Orthod confess fol 10. No marvell that he is so taxed for his obsceanity in his Henzius Anglicus against King Hen. the eight for his beastlinesse in his Hans worst against the Jewes for his filthy mentioning of Hogs for his stincking repetition of turds and dunghils in his Schemhamphorise But if you will hear of his master piece you must read the Booke which he writ against the Pope where he asks him out of what mouth O Pope dost thou speak is it out of that from whence thy farts do burst If it come thence keep it to thy self if it comes from that wherein thou powrest thy Corifca wine let the Dog fill that with his excrements good Asse doe not kick kick not my little Pope O my dear Asse doe not so fie how this little Pope hath bewrayed himself o Luth cont pontif Rom adiab fund in tom 8. Jen p 207 208. Is this the way to win to his side or to gaine souls to Christ or to reform Churches or to confute heresies It is observed that Saint Paul in his Epistles repeated the sacred name of Jesus 500 times and it is the observation of the learned Tygurin Divines that so many times Luther hath used the name of Devil in his Bookes and it is no marvail that they burst out into this admiration How wonderfull is Luther here with his Devils what impure words he useth with how many Devils doth he burst p Theol Tigur confess Germ fol 3. part 3 fol 114 Nor marvail that Zwinglius saith to him we fill not our Books with somany Devils nor doe we bring so many armies of Devils against thee q Zwing tom 2 fol 381 If you can expect to gather figges from thorns or grapes from thistles then ye may expect words from a sanctified spirit to proceed from such a mouth else not What should I say more Melancthon tels us that Carolostadius was a barbarous fellow without wit without learning without common sense in whom was no sign of the holy Ghost but manifest tokens of impiety r Melanct Epist ad freder micon Hosp hist Sac. Lastly Hutterus Beza's own fellow Protestant thus saies of him and casts this dirt in his face which is so shamelesse a testimony that you must give me leave to throw a latine vail over it viz. Beza in fine libri de absentia corporis Christi in coena scribit Candidae sive Amascae suae culum imo partem diversam magis adhuc pudendam mundiora esse quam illorum ora qui simpliciter verbis Christi inherentes credant se praesens Christi Corpus in coena sacra ore suo accipere Å¿ Hut exblic lib concord art 7. p. 703. And another Beza by his most filthy manners was a disgrace to honest Discipline who in sacrilegious verse published to the world his detestable loves his unlawfull carnall acts whoredoms and fowl adulteries not content that himself only should like a hog wallow in the durt of wicked lusts but he must also polute the ears of studious youth with his filth t Tilm. Heshus Ver. Sanc. Conf. I could inlarge my Paper to a volume of like instances in others but these are the prime reformers of the Protestant Churches and how the people edified under their Doctrine these Narratives from their own mouthes shall tell you When we were seduc'd by the Pope saith Luther every man did willingly follow good works and now every man neither saith nor knoweth any thing but how to get all to himself by exactions pillage theft lying usury u Luth. Dom. 26. post Trin. See Mr. Stubs motive to good works p. 44. 45. Certainly to speak the truth there is many times found Conscionabler and plainer dealing amongst most Papists then among many Protestants And if we look narrowly to the ages past we shall find more godlines devotion and zeal though blind more love one toward another more fidelity and faithfulness every way in them then is now to be found in us a Mr. Stubs motive pag. 43. If any man be desirous to see a great rabble of knaves of persons turbulent deceitfull Coseners Usurers let him go to any Citie where the Gospel is purely preached and he shall find them there by multitudes For it is more manifest then the day light that there were never among the Ethnicks Turks or infidels more unbridled and unruly persons with whom all virtue and honesty is quite extinct then are amongst the Professours of the Gospel b Andr. Muscul Domin 1. Adv. See him also li. de Prophet Sim. Paulus in Serm. Dom. 13. post Trinit The children of them of the reformed Gospel grow every day worse more untractable and dare commit such crimes as men of former times were never subject to c Jo Wygand l de bon mal Germ If you cast your eyes upon Protestant Doctours you shall find that some of them moved through vain glory envious zeal and a prejudicate opinion disorder the true Doctrine disperse and earnestly defend the false some of them without cause stir up contentions and with inconsiderate spight defend them many wrest their doctaines every way of purpose to please their Princes and the people by whose grace and favour they are maintained they overthrow with their wicked life all that they had formerly built with their true doctrine d Paul Eber praefat comm Philippi in Epist ad Cor How could the people be better when their Ministers were so bad like lips like lettice I will conclude all with the learned Protestant Zanchius and then you will neither wonder at one or other I have read saith he the Latine copy of the Apology and
look beyond Rome or the Doctrine that Rome practised then when they converted England nor for a Protestant because he is as far distant from the Grecian Church in matter of opinion as from the Romane and therefore he need not look for that which he hath no desire to find besides the Greek Church hath long ago submitted to the Church of Rome and there is no reason that others should make Arguments for her who are not of her when she stands in no competition her self besides there is not in any place where ever the Greek Church is or hath been planted where there are not Romane Catholicks but there are divers Countreys in Christendome where there is not one Professour of the Greek Church neither is there a place in all the Turks Dominions where there are not Romane Catholickes nor in any part of the world where there are not multitude of Romanes neither is there a Protestant Countrey in Christendome where there are not Roman Catholicks numberlesse but not a Protestant amongst the Natives neither of Spanie or Italy Shew me but one Protestant Countrey in the world who ever deserted the Romane Faith but they did it by Rebellion except England and there the King and the Bishops were the principall reformers I pray God they do not both suffer for it Shew me but one reformed Church that is of the opinion of an other ask an English Protestant where was your Religion before Luther and he will tell you of Hus and Jerom of Prag search for their Tenents and you shall find them as far different from the English Protestant as they are from one another run to the Waldensis for your Religions antiquity and you shall find as much difference in their Articles and ours as can be between Churches that are most opposite Come home to your own Countrey and derive your descent from Wickliffe and search for his Tenents in the book of Martyrs and you shall find them quite contrary to ours neither amongst any of your moderne Protestant shall you find any other agreement but in this one thing that they all protest against the Pope Shew me but any Protestant Countrey in the world where Reformation as you call it ever set her foot where she was not as well attended with sacriledge as usher'd by Rebellion and I shall lay my hand upon my mouth for ever King My Lord my Lord you are gone beyond the scope of your Argument which required you to prove the Romane Church more Catholick then the Greek which you have not done you put me off with my being English and not a Grecian whereas when we speak of the universality of a Church I think that any man who is belonging to the universe is objectum rationis And if that be the manner of your Election then I am sure most voices must carry it for your alleaged submission of the Greek Church unto the Roman I believe it cannot be prov'd but it may be the Patriarch of Constantinople may submit unto the Pope of Rome and yet the Greek Church may not submit unto the Romane Marq. Sir it is no dishonour for the Sun to make its progress from East to West it is still the same Sun and the difference is onely in the shadowes which are made to differ according to the varieties of shapes that the severall substances are of East and West are two divisions but the same day neither can they be said or imagined to be greater or more extending one or other and the one may have the benefit of the Suns light though the other may have its glory and I believe no man of sober judgement can say that any Church in the world is more generally spread over the face of the whole world or that her glory shines in any place more conspicuously then at this day in Rome King My Lord If externall glory be the Sun-shine of the Gospel then the Church is there indeed but if internall sanctity inward holyness be the Essences of a Church then we may be as much to seek for such a Church within the Wals of Rome as any where else Marq. Who shall be Judge of that I pray observe the Injustice and Errours that will arise if every man may be admitted to be his own judge you of the Church of England left your Mother the Church of Rome and Mother to all the Churches round about You forsook her and set up a new Church of your own Independent to her there comes a new generation and doth the like to you and a third generation that is likely to do the like to that and the Church falls and falls untill it falls to all the pieces of Independencie It is a hard case for a part to fall away from the whole and to be their own judges Why should not Kent fall away from England and be their own judges as well as England fall away from Christendome and be their own judges why should not a Parish in Kent fall away from the whole County and be their own judges why should not one Family fall away from the whole Parish and be their own judges why should not one man fall away in his opinion from that Family and be his own judge If you grant one you must grant all and I fear me in doing one you have done all So that every man dispiseth the Church whilst he is a Church to himself rayles against Popery and is the greatest Pope himself dispiseth the Fathers and will enthrone his own judgement above the wisdome of the ancient refuseth Expositours that he may have bis own sence and if he can start up but some new opinions he thinks himself as worthy a member of Christianity as if he were an Apostle to some new found land Now Sir though some do take the Church to be the Scriptures yet the Scriptures cannot be the Church because the Scriptures send us to the Church audi Ecclesiam dic Ecclesiae others take the Elect to be the Church yet this cannot be for we know not who are elect and who not that which must be the Church must be a visible an eminent societie of men to whose Authoritie in cases of appeale and matter of judgement we are to acquiesse and subscribe And I appeale to Your Royall heart whether there be a Church in the world to whom in these respects we ought to reverence and esteeme more then the Church of Rome and that the Church of Rome is externally glorious it doth not follow that therefore she is not internall holy for the Kings daughters clothing was of wrought gold as well as she was all glorious within and though she had never so many Divine graces within her yet she had honourable women without her as her attendants and for the question whether this inward glory is to be so much sought for within the gates of Rome is the question and not yet decided King My Lord I l'e deale as ingeniously with you
as I can When the Romane Monarch stretch'd forth his arms from East to West he might make the Bishops of Roms oecumenacy as large as was his Empire and all the Churches in the world were bound to follow her Lawes and decretalls because God hath made such Emperours nursing Fathers of his Church as it was prophesied by the Divine Esay alwayes provided that the child be not pourtractured greater then the Nurse as hath been observed by the pride of your Bishops of Rome but when the several Kingdoms of Christendom shook off the Roman Yoke I see no reason why the Bishop of Rom should expect obedience from the Clergie of other Contreies any more then the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury should expect obedience from the Clergie of other Kingdoms And for your deriving your Authority from Saint Peter I have no reason why we may not as well derive our Authority from Simon Zelotes or Joseph of Arimathea or from Philip of whose planting the Gospel we have as good warrant as you have for Saint Peter his planting the Gospel in Rome But my Lord I must tell you that there are other Objections to be made against your Church which more condemns her if these were answered Marq. May it please Your Majestie to give me leave to speak a word or two to what I have said and then I shall humbly beg Your further Objections as to that of the Christian Kingdomes shaking of the Roman Yoake and falling to pieces which was so prophesied it should yet the Church should not do so because it is said it shall remaine in unitie and for Your Majesties Objection concerning Simon Zelotes Joseph of Arimathea c. It is answered that there were two conversions the first of the Brittains the second of the Saxons we onely require this Justice from you as you are English not Welch-men for the Church of England involves all the Brittains within her Communion for the Brittains have not now any distinct Church from the Church of England Now if Your Majestie please I expect your further Objections King My Lord I have not done with you yet though particular Churches may fall away in their severall respects of obedience to one supreme Authority yet it followes not that the Church should be thereby divided for as long as they agree in the unity of the same spirit and the bond of peace the Church is still at unitie as so many sheaves of corne are not unbound because they are severed Many sheaves may be long to one field to one man and may be carried to one barne and be servient to the same table Unity may consist in this as wel as in being hudled up together in a ricke with one cocke-sheave above the rest I have a hundred pieces in my pocket I find them something heavie I divide the sum halfe in one pocket and halfe in an other and subdivide them afterwards in two severall lesser pockets The moneys is divided but the sum is not broke the hundred pounds is as whole as when it was together because it belongs to the same man and is in the same possession so though we divide our selves from Rome if neither of us divide our selves from Christ we agree in him who is the Center of all unitie though we differ in matter of depending upon one another But my Lord of Worcester we are got into such a large field of discourse that the greatest Schollers of them all can sooner shew us the way in then out of it therefore before we go too far let us retire lest we lose our selves and therefore I pray my Lord satisfie me in these particulars Why do you leave out the second Commandment and cut another in too why do you with-hould the Cup from the Laytie why have you seven Sacraments when Christ instituted but two why do you abuse the World with such a fable as Purgatory and make ignorant fooles believe you can fish soules from thence with silver hookes why do you pray to Saints and worship Images Those are the offences which are given by your Church of Rome unto the Church of Christ of these things I would be satisfied Marq. Sir Although the Church be undefiled yet she may not be spotless to several apprehensions for the Church is compared to the Moon that is full of spots but they are but spots of our fancying though the Church be never so cumly yet she is described unto us to have black eye-browes which may to some be as great an occasion of dislike as they are to others foyles which set her off more lovely We must not make our fancies judgements of condemnation to her with whom Christ so much was ravished For Your Majesties Objections and first as to that of leaving out the second Commandment and cutting another in two I beseech Your Majesties who called them Commandments who told you they were ten who told you which were first and second c. The Scripture onely called them words those words but these and these words were never divided in the Scriptures into ten Commandments but two Tables The Church did all this and might as well have named them twenty as ten Commandments that which Your Majestie calls the second Commandment is but the explanation of the first and is not razed out of the Bible but for brevitie sake in the mannualls it is left out as the rest of the Commandment is left out concerning the Sabbath and others wherefore the same Church which gave them their Name their Number and their Distinction may in their breviats leave out what she deems to be but exposition and deliver what she thinks for substance without any such heavie charge as being blottable out of the book of life for deminishing the word of God For withholding the Cup from the Laytie where did Christ either give or command to be given either the bread or the wine to any such drink you all of this but they were all Apostles to whom he said so There were neither lay men or women there If the Church allowed them afterwards to receive it either in one or both kinds they ought to be satisfied therewith accordingly but not question the Churches her Actions She that could alter the Sabbath into the Lords day and change the dipping of the baptised over head and eares in water to a little sprinkling upon the face by reason of some immergencies inconveniencies occasioned by the difference of Seasons and Countryes may upon the like occasion accordingly dispose of the manner of her Administration of her Sacraments Neither was this done without great reason the world had not wine in all her Countries but it had bread Wherefore it was thought for uniformity sake that they might not be unlike to one another but all receive alike that they should onely receive the bread which was to be had in every place and not the Cup in regard that wine was not every where to be had I wonder that any body
about the Scripture all Consent and Credit the Fathers adhere to the Councels submit to the holy Sea of Rome And the Divisions that are are but humane dissentions as is confessed by Luther i Tom. 7. fol. 380. Beza k Beza Epist 1. Whitaker l Whit. de Eccles Cont. Bell. Cont. 2. q. 5. p. 327. Fulk m Fulk ag Hesk. Sand. c. c. pag. 293. c Thus Religion being at Vnity with it self is the true Speculum Creatoris or looking glass of the Creatour wherein the full proportion of a Deity may be seen but once broken into pieces it may represent divers faces but no true proportion and loseth at once both its value and its virtue I have thus presented Your Majestie with a view of the Catholick Religion asserted by the Fathers and the Protestant Religion asserted by their founders I shall humbly desire Your Majesties further patience that Your Majestie will be pleased to consider the lives and Conversations of the one and of the other First the rare Sanctity and admired holinesse which all ages and writers have ascribed unto these holy Fathers And the strange and unheard of blasphemies vilenesse and wickednesse that are cast upon the other not by any of their Adversaries but by themselves upon one another If these testimonies had been by any of our side I could not have expected credit but being by Protestants themselves I cannot see how it should be denied Luther confesseth saith the learned Protestant Hospinian that he was taught by the devil that the Masse was naught and overcome with the devils reasons he abolisht it a Hist Sacr. part ult fol. 131. The same confessed by himselfe b Tom. 7. Witt. fol. 228. Lingeniously confesse saith Luther that I cannot henceforth place Zwinglius in the number of Christians c Tom. 2. Germ. fol. 190. and further he affirms that he had lost whole Christ d In fol. 182. after the manner of all Zwinglius saith Schlusselburg Hereticks was stricken with the spirit of giddinesse and blindnesse deriving it from the etemologie of his name in dutch von dem Schwindel e lin 2. act 1. Gualterus cals Zwinglius the autor of war the disturber of peace proud and cruel and instances in his strange attempt against the Tygurnis his fellows whom he forced by want and famine to follow his doctrine and that he dyed in armor and in the warre f In apolog pro Zwing 1. tom fol 30 31. and Osiander Epist Cent 16. p 203. And Luther saith he dyed like a thiefe because he would compell others to his error g Luther collog lat tom 2. ca de Advers And he saith further that he denyed Christ and is damn'd h Luth col lat tom 1. c. de dam inferno He tels us also that the devil or the devils dam used to appear to Carolo 's and taught him the exposition of this is my body i Tom 3. Jen Germ fol. 68. so Chemnitius de caena p. 214. As also that he possessed him corporally and that he was possessed with more devils then one k Luth loc com class 5. c. 15. p 47. Neither would he have any man wonder that he cals him devil for he saith he hath nothing to do with him but has only relation to him by whom he is obsest who speaks by him l Luth tom 3. Jen fol 61. The last apparition of the devil to him which was three daies before his death is recorded by Albert. m Cont. Carlost fol 6. See Jo Schutz li 50. caus c. 50. If you look into Bezas Epigrams printed at Paris An. 1548. you will find pritty passages concerning his boy Andebers and his wench Candida and the businesse debated at large concerning which sinne is to be preferr'd and his chusing the boy at last Sclusselberg said that Peter Martyr was a heretick and dyed so n Theol Calv li 2. act 1. Nicolaius Selneverus said that Oecolampadius in his doctrine built upon the sand o Seln part c. Ennarrat ger in Psa fol 215. And Saith Luther Emser and Oecolampadius and such like were hiddenly slain by those horrible blowes and shakings of the devill p Luth tom 7. fol 30. Simlerus saith that Brentius Miricus and Andrew Musculus in their writings did nothing else but make way for the devil q Siml in vita Bulling fol 55. Luther saith Calvin was infected with many vices I would he had bin more carefull in correcting his vices r Calv alledged by Schlusselb theol cal lib 2. fol 126. God for the sin of pride wherewith Luther exalted himselfe took away his true spirit Å¿ Cont Rheg l Germ cont Jo Hess de coena domini We have found saith Oecalompadius in the faith and confession of Luthers 12. Articles whereof some are more vain then is fitting some less faithfull and over-guilefully expounded others again are false and reprobate but some there are which plainly dissent from the word of God and the Articles of Christian faith t Oecol resp ad Luth confess See Zuenckfeld praef super prae cept fidei artic Ho spin hist Sacra part 2. fol 5. Thou O Luther saith Zwinglius corruptest and adulterest the Scripture imitating therein the Marcionists and the Arians u Zwing tom 2. fol 412. In translating and expounding of Scripture Luthers erros are many and manifest w Bucer dial Cont Melanct Zwinglius tels us that Luther affirms some times this and some times that of one and the same thing and that he is never at one with himself taxing him with inconstancy and lightnesse in the word of God a Zwing tom 2. fol. 458. That he cares not what he saith though he be found contradicting the Oracles of God b Zwing tom 2. resp ad confes Luth As sure as God is God so sure and devilish a lyer is Luther c Jo Camp colloq lat Luth tom 2. c. de adv f. 354 Luthers writings contain nothing but railing and reproaches insomuch that it maketh the Protestant Religion suspected and hated d Tigur confesseth Orthod fol 122 123. He cals an anointed King Hen. 8. of England a furious dolt indued with an impudent and whorish face without a vein of princely bloud in his whole body a lying Sophist a damnable rotten worm a basilisk the progeny of an Adder scurrilouslyer covered with title of a King a clown a block-head foolish wicked and impudent Henry and saies that he lies like a scurrilous knave and thou liest in thy throat foolish and sacrilegious King e Luth tom 2. fol 333 334 335. 338. 340. Nor did he less rail at other Princes as at the Duke of Brunswick in his Book called Wider hans worst written purposely against him as also against the Bishop of Mentz one of the Princes Electors f Tom 3. Germ fol 533. 339. 360. And against the Princes of Germany g