teach or warne me Seing that I was obedient vnto them whan they sayde beleue the gospel why may I not obeie them whan they saye vnto me beleue not Manicheus et cet By the circumstaunce now of S. Augustines wordes it is euident first that he wolde beleue no such doctrine as men brought vp of their owne heades Secondly that he wold beleue no vncertayne doctryne ner that he knewe not to be true Thirdly that the occasion which moued him to beleue the gospell was the whole consent and auctorite of the catholike or vniuersall church Now like as he reporteth not of them that they preached anie other doctryne vnto him saue the gospell so saieth he not that he beleued anye other lernyng saue onely it And in confutinge of Manicheus erroure he bringeth none other doctryne but the scripture as it is manifest in the same fifth chapter of his boke What helpe haue ye now in S. Augustines wordes either to proue praieng to saintes or that a particular church maye by her auctorite make anye article necessary to be beleued excepte it be grounded in scripture Ye meant somwhat whan ye chopped vp S. Augustines wordes of that fashion It is not for naught that ye so haue peruerted his sayeng and reade it otherwise then it standeth in his boke For these are his wordes I shulde not beleue the gospell vnlesse the auctorite of the catholike church dyd moue me Now is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as much to saye as vniuersalis Which worde like as ye leaue out in youre lectiō so folowe ye the mynde of Franciscus Maronis such another holy father as was your inquit quidam who commynge long after S. Augustine dyd gather of these his forsaid wordes that the auctorite of the church is greater then the auctorite of holy scripture where as S. Aug. meant nothinge lesse but teacheth us that who so euer bringeth vp anye opynion or setteth forth anye doctryne we shall receaue none but that which agreeth with the manifest doctryne of the vniuersall church of Christ That is we shall holde us to that doctryne which was taught by the Prophetes by the Apostles and by such other as were true folowers of them in Christes holy congregacion and church Standish Is it not still fundamentum et columna veritatis et cet Couerdale The vniuersall congregacion and multitude of thē that beleue in Christ is still the house of god the church of the liuinge god the piler and stablishment of the trueth For there dwelleth god with his mercy grace trueth forgyuenesse et cet Nether dyd the Apostles contrary to Christes former institucion whan they to set vp his name which then was so sore spurned at dyd baptise in the same yf ye remembre well the prerogatyue of holy baptyme and the presence of the blessed trenyte therin Standishe Paul the vessel of election m. v. hundert yeres and more past desired the Romaynes cap. xv the Collo cap. iiij the Tessa j. Tessa v. to praye for him et cet Couerdale I turned not ouer two leafes of your treatise sens I red these your wordes where ye saie thus How can it be in scripture thou impudent heretike the prayer vnto saintes Lorde Iesu what meane ye man Will ye by scripture proue that thing which as ye your self confesse can not be in scripture Do ye not graūt your selfe that the holy scripture is the very worde of god Wyll ye then by gods holy worde proue that thinge which can not be therin Wyll ye belye the worde of god Saye ye not your selfe in another place afore that it is an abhominable vice to slaundre it To what poynt no to haue ye brought that worshipfull doctrine of your vnholy mother the malignaunt church Which teacheth that we must now praie vnto S. Paul and other sayntes because that he beynge here in this body dyd requyre other men to praye for him and for all saintes Now is his request such that yf we shuld fulfill it yet for him aswell as whan he was lyuyng vpō erth thē shuld we desire god to be good to his holy sayntes that are out of this life And then god saue oure lady helpe S. Paul and conforte swete S. Anthony A mocker are ye with gods holy word and a shameful slaūdrer therof therfore as vnworthy to be answered vnto euery vayne sentence of your vnstable doctryne so leaue I your long disputacion therin Desiringe all Christen readers to note wel what scriptures ye bring forth and to cōpare the same vnto the open texte and then trie which of oure two doctrynes is moost agreable to gods holy worde The doctryne of the Prophetes of Christ oure Sauioure of his holy Apostles and of such as haue and do folowe them in the catholike or vniuersall church and congregacion of god Is his holy worde and scripture which as holy S. Paul darre aduowe is able to instructe us vnto saluacion which is thorow the faith in Christ Iesu et cet Yf youre article therfore of prayenge to sayntes that be out of this life were a thing belonging to saluacion no doubte the same holy scripture of god wold haue taught it The awncient firme stable and true doctryne of Christes catholike or vniuersall church is this that like as Christ Iesus toke vpon him oure flesh and bloude without sinne and deliuered us frō eternall death and hell so is he still oure mercifull and faithfull hie prest in thinges concerning god to make agrement for oure sinnes and able to socoure such as are tempted He is the seate of grace to whom yf we resorte we maie receaue mercy and fynde grace to helpe in tyme of nede he is able also euer to saue them that come vnto god by him and lyueth euer to make intercessiō for us yee and appeareth now for us before the face of god This doctryne is confirmed by those same textes of scripture that ye bring in j. Iohn secundo Iohn xiiij j Timoth. secundo and yet without open scriptures are ye not ashamed to resiste it We are cōmaunded thorow out all holy scripture both of the olde and new Testamēt to praie vnto Allmightie god to call vpon him to make oure peticions vnto him and to aske of him what soeuer we lacke We haue his true and faithfull promes that yf we so do we shall be hearde we shall haue oure request we shall finde that we seke we shall be delyuered et cet We haue ensamples innumerable that all those faithfull people whom the scripture maketh mencion of dyd make their peticions and praier to none other but vnto god whyle they were in this life Let Cornelius whom we spake of afore and the practise of the prymityue church beare recorde Shal we now refuse gods holy cōmaundemēt thinke scorne of his louing promes despise the ensamples of his catholike and vniuersall church and defye gods holy ordinaunce as ye
do and renne at riote with your doctryne Awaye from us ye wicked the commaundementes of our god will we kepe and not yours Standish Which toke oure synnes on him penam pro peccatis j. Pet. ij et cet Couerdale Ye taught afore wresting many scriptures for your purpose that euery man must satisfie for the punishment belonginge vnto sinne and now ye graunt that Christ toke the paine vpō him therfore As much hold is there at your doctryne as at an elys tale Standish But we haue moo meanes concernyng intercession et cet Couerdale The scripture is manifest that euery one of us in this life is boūd to praie for another and dailie occasions haue we of such peticions and exhortacions as appertayne to oure estate As for praiēg to saintes that be out of this life Ye haue myne answere allready Barnes NOtwithstonding whether they praye for us or no that I referre to god Standish A good Christē man wold haue gone no further then the congregacion of Christes church that is to saie in this region the kinges maiesty with his lerned counsaill Couerdale Like as your vnreuerent handling of the holy scriptures afore rehearced and your wicked doctrine against the same declareth you to be none of Christes church vnlesse ye repent and turne so do ye here exempte youre selfe from that holy congregacion Maruaill not therfore though whan I se you folowe your vnholy mother and not Christes deare spouse I call you now and then her owne whyte sonne In this region of England ye saie the congregaciō of Christes church is the Kynges Maiestie with his lerned counsaill But is this a sufficient diffinicion what a comforte is this now for so many of the Kynges subiectes both lerned and vnlerned to heare that they are not of Christes congregacion Is it a greate consolacion for the foote to be none of the body Ye repute D. Barnes no good Christen man because he wolde not define whether sayntes praie for us or no but referred that vnto god and not to the Kynges maiestie and his lerned counsaill What will ye make of the Kynges grace A prince that had rather haue secrete thinges referred vnto him then vnto god the onely knower of all secretes Or do ye esteme the Kynges lerned counsaill to be such men as will geue iudgment in thinges that be not euident Or thinke ye them to be ignoraunt of the scripture which forbyddeth men to search out or to medle with secrete thinges that god hath not commaunded Barnes ANd yf saintes do praie for you thē I trust within this halfe hour to praie for you M. sheriffe and for euery Christē man liuing in the faith of Christ and dyenge in the same as a saynt Wherfore yf the deed maye praye for the quicke then I will surely praye for you Standishe O damnable presumpcion et cetera Couerdale Because this man trusted thorow the onely mercy of god in Christ to passe from this death vnto life ye note damnable presumpcion arrogaunt presumpcion and presumptuous arrogaūcy in him And because ye maye seme to haue scripture to proue that D. Barnes wolde temerously appoynte and determyne the tyme himselfe for his so sayeng ye bringe in quod pater posuit in sua potestate as right as a rammes horne and as nye to the purpose as Pauls steple and mount Falcon. At the tyme of the ascension of oure sauyoure whan the Apostles were come together they asked him and sayde Lord shalt thou at this tyme set vp the kyngdome of Israel agayne He sayd vnto them It belongeth not vnto you to knowe the tymes and seasons which the father hath kepte in his awne power et cetera A like answere to such another question geueth he in another place and saieth Of that daye and houre knoweth no man no not the angels of heauen but the father onely What maketh this now to proue that he which acordinge to Christes promes trusteth to pas from this death to life doth temerously appoynt and determine the same time daye or season which our Sauyoure there speaketh of Or that he is either presumptuous or arrogaunt which acording to the ensample of holy scripture is certaine and sure that after the destruction of his body he hath an euerlastinge dwelling in heauen Haue ye not now alledged the scripture well to the purpose Ye wold haue men beleue as it appeareth by you doctrine that whan they departe hence they shall go from the hall in to the kytchen or els in to the whole kylle of your purgatory Standish Loke what case he is in that thus ended his life et cet Couerdale To proue here that saintes praie for us in heauen ye make a long disputacion and with the scriptures ye do as ye were wont They haue loue yet ye saie and therfore they praye for us and are our aduocates I answere The same places of scripture that ye bringe in your selfe are moost against you for they declare manifestly that it is the office of Christ to make intercession for us and that he is with the father oure aduocate which opteineth grace for our sinnes The saintes then that be in heauen knowinge this eternall will of god loue us not so that they desyre to be nether can they be against it It is a token that your doctryne hath but a weake foundacion whan ye go aboute to proue it by a dreame yee and that out of such a boke as serueth not for the confirmacion of the doctryne of Christes church for though it be red among the stories of other bokes yet dyd not the church receaue it among the Canonical scriptures in S. Hieroms tyme. Nether can ye proue that boke laufull by anye sayeng of Christ for thorow out all the new Testament he maketh mencion of none but of the lawe the Prophetes and the Psalmes and byddeth not search anye other scriptures but such as beare recorde and testimonye of him The xv of Ieremy proueth as doth also the vij the xj the xiiij of his boke that god will not be intreated where his worde is troden vnder foote and where men will nedes spurne agaynst it And verely in all the scripture could ye not haue brought in a more manifest place to cōfute your owne doctrine if it be compared to the xiiij of Ezechiel The xvj of Luke proueth nothing for your purpose in that Abraham praied not to god whan he was desired But like as it proueth that ther is no redempcion in hell ner time of acceptable repentaunce and forgyuenesse after this life So proueth it euidently that we ought to holde us to the onely word and scripture of god and not to loke for other doctrynes visions dreames or reuelacions The place Apoca. vj. proueth that the voyce of Abels bloude and of such as are slayne for the worde of god cryeth vengeaunce from the erth and vnder the altare as S.
Couerdale I answere By youre owne wordes then it foloweth not that he was bounde to accuse and cōdemne himselfe of the thinges that he had not offended in But by youre leue where as ye bring in this text of S. Paul Si nos ipsos et cetera ye peruerte it not alledginge it as it standeth but thus Si nos ipsos iudicaremus non vtique diiudicaremur a Domino That is to saie Yf we iudged oure selues we shulde not be iudged of the lorde But. S Pauls wordes are these Quod si nos ipsos diiudicaremus non vtique iudicaremur Dum iudicamur autem a Domino corripimur ne cum hoc mundo damnemur That is to saie Yf we wolde iudge or reproue oure selues we shulde not be iudged But whan we are iudged we are chastened of the lorde lest we shulde be damned with this worlde Wherfore the peruerting of this texte now at the first bront causeth me the more to suspecte you and to trust you the worse because the deuell himselfe is scolemaster to such chopping vp of the texte As we maie se in the gospell of Mathew and Luke Now go to Yf I finde anie moo such iugling castes with you ye are like to heare of it afore I come to the ende of your boke For weaknesse and ignoraunce can I well awaie withall so longe as it is not wilfull but the peruerting or choppinge vp of a text of holy scripture is not to be borne vnrebuked Standishe Marke here how he vseth Ironia et cetera Couerdale Ye confesse that D. Barnes in his forsaide wordes doth vse ironia and yet contrary to the significacion of the worde ye are not ashamed to affirme that he confessed herewithall both heresie and erroneous opinions Now is ironia asmuch to saie as a mockage derision or meaning of another thinge then is expressed in the wordes Which maner of speakynge is much vsed not onely thorow out the Prophetes in holy scripture but also among the Heithen Poetes And the same phrase of speche haue we in Englische As whan a man saieth to ashrewde boie Come hither good sir ye are a vertuous childe in dede et cete meaninge nothinge lesse For asmuch then as ye your selfe cōfesse that D. Barnes doth here vse ironia it is euidēt that whan he saide these wordes You shall perceaue what erroneous opynions I holde his meaninge was how that the people shulde know that he helde no erroneous opinions As it appeareth by these his wordes folowinge Barnes GOd I take to recorde I neuer to my knowlege taught any erroneous doctrine but onely those thinges which scripture led me vnto Standishe Iustly pondre by the Prophet Psal cxl how greuous offence is partinax excusatio in peccatis et cet Couerdale Like as ye can not iustly laie anie partinacite to D. Barnes for those his wordes so proue ye the greuousnesse therof full slenderly out of the cxl Psalme yf the true readinge of the text be wel and iustly pondred Where as he taketh god to recorde in the trueth of so waightye a matter the scripture is full of holy ensamples that beare him therin What partinacite is there then in that acte He durst avowe also that to his knowlege he neuer taught anie erroneous doctrine and yet are ye not ashamed to ascrybe partinacite vnto him and to call him an obstinate heretike where as S. Hierome in his fourth boke the xxiiij chapter vpon Mathew writeth thus He is an heretike that vnder Christes name teacheth the thinges which are agaynst Christ Yf. D. Barnes therfore had wittingly and willingy taught anye thing against Christ ye might haue laied great partinacite to his charge Trueth it is that he beinge in ignoraunce and disceaued somtime by a multitude as you be did both erre and teach erroneous doctrine for the preferrement of the. B. of Romes vsurped auctorite and other abuses acording as many other lerned men moo in the realme haue done which haue sens both repēted toward god and also receaued the Kynges gracious pardon many yeares agoo Againe yf ye will laie partinacite to his charge because he was somtime in such grosse ignoraunce by the same argument might ye condemne Christes disciples of whose ignoraunce mencion is made in many places of the new Testament I saie not this to excuse ignoraunce but to reprehende the rashnesse of youre iudgment which presume to condemne them whō god hath called to repentaunce But peraduenture the pertinacite that ye laye to his charge is because he saieth he taught onely those thinges which scripture led him vnto For that is no small corsie to youre sore Ye wolde not haue scripture taught onely without other doctrines Neuertheles they that loue gods commaundement will teach nothinge but his worde onely for so hath he himselfe geuen cōmission Of his promises is mencion made both in Hieremie and in the gospell of Matthew As for ensamples we haue sufficiēt both of the Prophetes and Apostles which to die for it wold teach nothinge but scripture Reade the thirtēth chapter of the seconde Epistle to the Corinthians the fiftenth to the Romaines and the moost godly protestacion that S. Peter maketh in his seconde Epistle Let us geue place and cōsente to the holy scripture saieih S. Augustine for it can nether disceaue ner be disceaued The bisshoppes also and clergie of England in the Epistle of their boke to the Kynges grace do affirme that holy scripture alone sheweth men the right path to come to god to se him to knowe him to loue him to serue him and so to serue him as he moost desireth Wherfore they are rather obstinate agaynst god which in steade of his onely worde preach and teach other doctrines But let us heare what D. Barnes saieth more Barnes And that in my sermons I neuer mayntayned any erroure nether moued ner gaue occasion of anye insurrection Standish What blyndnesse wolde he leade us in to Who hath not heard him preach agaynst all the ordinaunce of Christes church et cete Couerdale As for blindnesse ye nede no leader to bring you in to it oure lorde whan his will is bringe you out of it This man toke god to recorde that he neuer mainteined anye erroure Wherby like as he denied not but that he might erre as he did erre grosly whan he lyued in the Papistry euen so lefte he us an ensample to forsake all errours and to maynteyne none Call ye this a leadinge in to blyndnesse Then farewell all good ensamples of humilite and repentaunce To the other parte of youre cauillacion I answere It wolde be to longe a registre for you to rehearce the names of all those which neuer heard D Barnes preach agaynst the ordinaunce of Christes church I also am one of them which haue heard him as oft as euer dyd ye and yet as I hope to haue my parte of gods mercy in Christes bloude I neuer heard
euery man in his callynge to geue no occasion of fallinge vnto eny man to mortifye their erthly membres et cet acording to the wholsome doctrine of the Apostle Call ye this a preaching of a fleshly and carnall libertye Is this a doctrine that maketh men renne at ryote and to do what they list I wondre verely that ye shame not thus to belye the trueth so oft As pertayninge to youre blasphemye whiche saie that it is a damnable iustificacioÌ„ where faith is preached onely to iustifye it is damnably spoken of you yee though an aungell of heauen shuld speake it yf holy S. Paul be true which saieth he ought to be holden accursed that preacheth any other gospell then that he himselfe and the other Apostles had preached Yf ye of a cancred hatred to the trueth haue not wilfully and maliciously taken parte agaynst the holy goost so that ye are but led ignorauntly by a blind multitude to affirme the saide inconuenience I praie god lende you a clearer fight in the Kyngdone of Christ But yf ye be mynded as were the Pharises and maliciously ascribe damnacion to it wherby onely we receaue saluacion as they ascribed vnto the deuell it that was the onely workynge of the holy goost then am I sore afrayed for you and for as many as are of that mynde For yf it be damnable to teach or preach wittingly agaynst the expresse worde of god then verely is this a damnable heresye to affirme that faith onely doth not iustifye seynge that holy scripture so teacheth As Gene. xv Esa liij Abac. ij Mar. xvj Luc. j. viij.xxiiij Iohn v. xvij Acto xiij xvj· Rom. iij. iiij.v.x Gal. ij iij.iiij.v Philip. iij.j. Pet. j. ij Heb. iiij xj Of this faith that scripture speaketh of so plentifully haue I made sufficient mencion in the prologe of that litle boke which I lately put forth in Englische concernynge the true olde faith of Christ Now like as the scriptures afore alledged do testifye for us that we meane no false ner vayne faith euen so is the same article of iustificacion defended and maynteyned by the doctous in many and sondrye places specially by S. Augustine in the ccclij chapter de vera innocentia De verbis Domini sermone .xl. De verbis Apostoli ser xxvij In the boke of the fiftye sermons the xvij sermon In the first boke of the retractes the xxiij chapter In the cv Epistle vnto Sixtus the bisshoppe In the xxv treatise vpon Iohn the sixte chapter In his manualle the xxij and xxiij chapter In the exposicion of the lxvij and of the lxx Psalme In the liij sermon de tempore In the v boke of his homelis the xvij homelye In the boke of the lxxxiij questions the lxvj chapter And in the prologe of the xxxj Psalme I might alledge Cyrillus Ambrose Origen Hilarius Bernarde Athanasius with other moo but what helpeth it Yet shall all the world know that youre heresye is not onely condemned by the open and manifest scripture but also by many of the doctours As for naturall reason it fighteth clerely agaynst you also yf ye pondre well the parable of the mariage in the xxij of Matthew and in the xiiij of luke the parable of the vnthriftie sonne in the xv of Luke the parable also of the detter in the xviij oâ— Matthew and in the seuenth of Luke Where as it was laied to D. Barnes charge how that he shulde teach that god is the authour of synne verely he protested openly at S. Mary spitle the tewesdaye in easter weke that he was neuer of that mynde howbeit he confessed as the trueth is that where as in his boke he had wrytten of predestinacion and fre will ther was occasion taken of him by his writynge that he shulde so meane But verely yf he had in that matter bene as circuÌ„specte as the children of this worlde are wyse in their generacion he might the better haue auoided the capciousnesse of men afore hand Neuertheles it appeareth planely that he mistrusted no such thing and therfore dyd to moch simplicite disceaue him in that behalfe as it doth many moo which are not so wyse as serpentes Nether fynde ye in all his boke these wordes God is the authoure of synne but ye maie fynde these wordes The gouerner of al thinges is most wise moost rightous and most merciful and so wyse that nothinge that he doth can be amended so righteous that there can be no suspicion in him of vnrighteousnesse et cet â–ª Item All thing that he doth is well done Whâ—â—fore yf they that laied that heresye to D. Barnes charge had remembred their owne distinction of malum pene and malum culpe at the reading of his wordes aswell as they can note it in other places they might easely haue perceaued his meanynge and not haue mistaken him Ye saye also D. Barnes dyd preach that workes do not profit Yf ye meane workes inuented by mens owne braynes not grounded on gods worde then verely might he well saye that such workes do not profit to saluacion For what soeuer is not of faith is sinne But yf ye meane such good workes as are coÌ„prehended in the coÌ„maundementes of god and within the precyncte of his word then truly ye fayle so to reporte of him for though saluacion be gods worke onely yet D. Barnes in his boke doth not onely condemne the fleshly and damnable reason of them which saye Yf faith onely iustifieth what nede we to do anye good workes et cet But also he affirmeth planely that we must nedes do them and that they which will not do theÌ„ because they be iustified alonely by faith are not the children of god ner childrne of iustificacion et ce For yf they were the very true children of god they wolde be the gladder to do good workes et cet Therfore saieth he shulde they also be moued frely to worke yf it were for none other purpose ner profit but onely to do the will of their merciful god that hath sâ—â—â—ely iustified them and also to profit their neghboure whoÌ„ they are bounde to serue of very true charite Are these wordes now asmuch to saye as workes do not profit Lorde god what meane ye thus vntruly to reporte of the deed Where as ye make this blynde obiection and saye of workes profit not so that faith onely iustifieth and Christes death be sufficient then penÌ„aunce is voyde and superfluous I answere A goodly consequent gathered nether of wittye sophistry wyse logyek ner of good Philosophy excepte it be of Philosophy vnnatural no ner of right diuynite Workes profit not to saluation ergo they profit nothing at all Is this a praty consequent Youre consequent is naught saieth S. Peter for by good workes must ye make your vocacion certayne and sure Alike argumeÌ„t might ye make after this maner and saye Yron is not profitable to chew or
there in youre wordes Fie on such doctrine Standishe And here let us note that it is not all one to bringe forth good frutes and to bring forth worthy frutes of pennaunce Couerdale No where haue ye auctorite of gods word for you Be not the good frutes of penÌ„aunce worthy frutes Or be not they good frutes that are worthy O vnworthy teachers What an vnworthy doctrine is this Standish For he that doth committe no deedly synnes et cet Couerdale Yf I shulde teach anie man whan he hath vnlaufully bahaued him selfe to vse vnlaufull thinges still I am sure that like as gods word wolde therin condeÌ„ne me so wolde the prudent rulers of the worlde acordinge to their dewtie loke sharply vpoÌ„ me and iudge me litle better then a sedicious teacher Yf the rulers therfore of the worlde will winck at such a pestilent doctryne and suffre it to be sowne among their people I beseche god to seÌ„d them his discipline to their better enfourmacion and so to lighten the eies of their vnderstonding that they maie aswell remembre what hurt commeth of sedicious doctrine as many of their subiectes yee they them selues also haue proued it by experience Well yet remembre the ende Where as ye separate the frutes of innoceÌ„cy of goodnesse et ce froÌ„ the frutes of penÌ„aunce where finde ye that in holy scripture For albeit that some man offendeth more then another who yet I praie you is not bound to confesse himselfe a synner to declare himselfe sory for the vnperfectnesse of his owne nature to mortifie his flesh and to liue in repentaunce all the daies of his life Yee be he neuer so innocent iust or righteous in the estimacioÌ„ of man Thus by your slendre diuision ye proue but slenderly that the workes of Mary Magdalene and Dauid were not frutes of goodnesse but onely frutes of pennaunce as though penÌ„aunce were not good or as though the frutes of pennaunce were not good frutes As for the carnall libertie of man it must be all waie restrained abuse of all thinges is utterly forbidden Yet must the body of man haue his worshippe at his nede at his nede I saye not at his lust Yf you now thorow anye sâ—â—â—e of wisdone or chosen spritualtie will teach the contrary then is youre doctrine condemned by S. Paul to the Collossians Standishe· Yee and acordinge to the qualite of the offence must be the satisfaction Pro mensura peccati erit plagarum modus Deute xxv Couerdale This text verely as it is slenderly alledged so proueth it youre purpose but faintly Moses wordes which you bringe in are these Acordinge to the measure of the offence shalbe also the measure of stripes But let us se the circumstaunce of the texte and so shall we trye whether ye haue played a iuglers cast or no. And forget not I praie you that ye haue alledged this texte to proue that the satisfaction must be acording to the qualite of the offence Moses wryteth thus Yf there be a matter of plee betwene anie men and they come to the law then loke whom the iudges considre to be iust him shall then declare to be in the right cause and him whom they perceaue to be vngodly shall they condemne for his vngodlynesse But yf they se him which hath offended to be worthy of stripes they shall take him downe and cause him to be beaten in their presence Acordinge to the measure of the offence shalbe also the measure of the strypes but so that they passe not the nombre of fortie et cete This lawe as it is euident was a ciuile ordinaunce made for the commodite of the people and not without mercy The text also speaketh of no such satisfaction as ye meane But here forgettinge the rules of youre logick ye wolde make a qualite of a quantite For in your article ye speake of a qualite and the texte maketh mencion of a quantite nombre or measure Agayne this lawe will that the partie which is to be beaten shal not haue aboue fortie stripes And then by youre doctrine it must folowe that though we be compelled to be punished and so to make satisfaction for the paine due vnto oure synnes yet shulde ech one of us haue but fortie stripes for the text speaketh of no moo Maie ye not be ashamed then thus to mock with the scripture Standishe Not like ner equall in the great offender and the lesse Vnde Apo. xviij Quantum quis se glorificauit et in delicijs fuit tantum illi inferendum est tormentum Couerdale Where as the voice from heauen speaketh of the whore of Babilon and saieth Come awaie from her my people that ye be not partakers of her synnes lest ye receaue of her plages et cete As much as she glorified herselfe and folowed her awne lustes so much geue ye her of punishment and sorowe et cet By the last parte of this texte wolde ye proue that satisfactioÌ„ maie not be equall in the greate offender and the lesse Now saieth the texte Asmuch as she glorified hir self et cete so much geue ye her of punishment Here is rather equalite And where as the texte speaketh of the whore of Babilon ye saie Quantum quis et ce turninge not onely the femynine gendre to the masculyne which a boie that goeth to the grammer scoole wolde not do but also prouinge an vniuersall by a perticular Agayne This texte speaketh of her that is damned to hell and the article that ye go aboute to proue speaketh of those whom ye haue affirmed allready to make satisfaction vnto god for their synnes by the frutes of pennaunce which by youre owne iudgment are not damned vnto hell Lord god whan will this blindnesse haue an ende Standish It is not ynough saieth Chrisostome et cet Couerdale The doctrine of god is that whan Christ hath made us whole for without him is no remission we shall sinne nomore he that hath stollen must steale nomore he that hath not the gift of chastite must for the auoiding of fornicacion take a laufull wife for better it is to mary then to burne On the back syde of the boke therfore is that doctryne writteÌ„ which teacheth that whan a man hath loÌ„g lyued in whordome he shall than abstaine from the laufull vse of holy wedloke for wedloke is the remedy appointed of god against all bodely fornicacion and whordome Standish Wherby we maie perceaue et cet Couerdale Yes there be worthy frutes of repentaunce to bring forth there is a new man to put on the tre hath good frutes to beare the spouse of Christ which is euery true faithfull soule hath laufull children that is laufull thoughtes laufull wordes laufull dedes to bring vp and to norishe Good workes must nedes folowe faith but not that we maye set anye of them in the rowme of Christ ner make them the satifactioÌ„ to god for our synnes God hath
verely as ye saie your selfe the propertye of an heretike and this propertye lerne ye of the father of all heresye euen father Satan Who by angelis suis mandauit et cete wolde proue that a man maye tempte his lord god But like as Satan wrestyng that place of scripture which made moost against him was cōmaunded by oure Sauioure to auoyde so be ye sure that your false doctryne can not stand Dawlbe your wall and spare not for Ezechiel telleth you planely that god wyll sende such a shower of rayne among all lyeng prophetes as shall ouerthrowe it Your laboure is but lost so long as ye dawlbe your wall with vntempred morter Standish Also where he saieth that he hath euer spoken reuerently of sayntes et cet Couerdale Ye graūted afore his wordes to be true whan he sayde that all such as for confessyng Christes name and for his sake do suffre death are sayntes in heauen This reuerent talkynge and praysinge of sayntes dyd ye alowe afore And now contrary to your awne wordes ye saye that ye wote not whether he euer spake reuerently of them or no Yet confesse ye that ye haue heard him fortye tymes Who will now trust you that are so double in your wordes Barnes ANd that oure lady I saye she was a virgyn immaculate and vndefyled and that she is the moost purest virgyn that euer god created and a vessell electe of god of whom Iesus Christe shulde be borne Standish Here yet ignorauntly et cete he goeth forther then the scripture speaketh et cet Couerdale Be these his wordes out of the boundes of scripture or not acording to the scripture Reade them ouer agayne Standishe He wolde neuer willingly graunt anye thynge but that is in scripture Couerdale Then like as ye proue him to haue bene a true messaunger of god in grauntinge to the holy scripture which by your owne cōfession is gods very worde so declare ye that yf he reuoked anie thing that is in it or graunted ought cōtrary vnto it It was done agaynst his will Haue ye not now a great cause to make such tryumphinge of reuocacions in your sermons Standish Albeit here with the church he doth professe that oure lady did continue a virgin still et cete Couerdale Doth not the scripture affirme this doctryne that the mother of oure Sauyoure is the purest virgin that euer god created Will not the Prophecies of Christes birth the perfourmaūce of the same and the practises of the holy goost in Christes blessed mother alowe this doctrine Haue ye noted the worke of god in her no better Yf she had anye nede of you ye shew her but a faynte frendshippe in reportynge that her most pure virginite hath none other grounde but the auctorite of your church Verely such your doting doctrine wil make both you and your church be lesse set by Standish Deus n tantam eam fecit inquit quidam et ce Couerdale Is not your doctryne now well sealed with butter Whan ye haue presumed to cōtroll gods word and to call the blessed mother of Christ with other names then the holy goost geueth her Now to ratifye and cōfirme your false matter ye bring in an heretike to helpe you Can not Christes worthy mother kepe still the gracious names that the holy trenite hath geuen her but she must now haue a sorte of hereticall Ruffyans to become new godfathers vnto her Call her as gods worde teacheth you full of grace blessed immaculate virgin et cete Praye to god that ye maye folowe the fote steppes of her constant faith her feruent charite and godly loue her moost meke and humble behaueoure her vnfained trueth et ce And whan ye talke in matters of Christes religion bring forth playne and manifest wordes of his scripture and no Romysh heretike ner a text out of frame to proue youre purpose withall Barnes THen saide M. Sheriffe You haue sayd well of her before And he beynge afrayed that M. Sheriffe had bene or shulde be agreued with any thing that he shulde saye sayd M. Sheriffe Yf I speak any thing that you will me not do nomore but beckē me with your hand and I wil straight waie holde my peace For I will not be dishobedient in anie thing but will obeye Standishe Now as he faineth he wold gyue no slaunder or offence Sed sero sapiunt Phriges Couerdale At this poynt ye are with D. Barnes that though he be out of this life yet what so euer he sayd in this protestacion or dyd at the tyme therof ye iudge him to the worst and slaunder him But your owne prouerbe that ye bring in doth admonishe you that it is to laite for though ye belye him and slaunder him neuer so much it can not hurt him Standishe Now he saieth he is afraied to displease irep◠dauerunt timore vbi non erat timor et cete Couerdale Like as ye referre to him the wordes which are not his owne so reporte ye of him that he was afrayed where no feare was But was there no feare at the fyre syde The manhode of our sauioure Christ feared death and so dyd that holy Kynge Ezechias As for you ye must nedes be of some bolde and stowte kynde that can kyll a deed man But how serueth those wordes of the Psalme to this youre purpose The holy goost speaketh of such wicked workers as eat vp gods people like bred call not vpon god are afraied to se god stande on ryghteous mens syde and mocke poore mē for putting their trust in god How maketh this scripture now to proue that ther is no feare where a man seyth death present before his eyes O wicked mockers with gods holy worde Standish Now se I praye you how obedient he saieth he will be which before tyme was euer dishobedient et cete Couerdale Ye saye much and proue litle touching this man whose present protestacion and his boke written afore declareth planely his obedience toward his prynce whose wholsome commaundement yf he haue at anye tyme disobeyed contrary to this his doctryne and example I am the more sory But yet haue ye not proued it to be so Touchinge bishoppes which are to be estemed acordinge to their estate I wote not what dishobedience ye haue to proue against him Such bishoppes as laboure in the worde of god and in the doctryne therof are to be counted worthye of double honoure therfore in herkenyng vnto such he dyd well and yf he dispysed such he despysed Christ But yf he folowed S. Iohns bydding and dyd not receaue such false Apostles as bring not the doctryne of Christ then can ye not iustly blame him Barnes AFter this ther was one that asked him what he saide of the sacrament of the altare Then sayde he vnto M. Pope which was there present M. Pope ye know and. M. Ryche yf ye be alyue that ther was one accused before my lord
chaunceloure for denyeng of the sacrament and for faulte of a better I was assygned to the examynacion of him in the galery And after longe reasonyng and disputaciō I declared and sayde that the sacrament beyng rightly vsed and accordinge to scripture doth after the word spoken by the prest chaunge the substaunce of the bred and wyne in to the body and bloud of Christ Were not these my wordes sayde he Yee sayde M. pope Thē beare me witnesse said he that I erre not in the sacramēt Standishe Allthoughe you did not denie that sacrament yet haue you et cet Couerdale Ye call it slaunderous raylinge whan a man with gods worde both ernestly rebuke such horryble abuses as Antichrist and his malignaunt church hath brought in among Christen people So lothe are ye to consent vnto gods worde or to vse anie thing according to his holy instituciō What could it then haue helped you yf he had opened his minde farther seing that in his so godly and honest request ye ascribe naughtynesse vnto him He did but shew that he wold haue the sacrament rightly vsed and acording to holy scripture and ye are not content with him Yet well worth the Corinthians for though they were fallen in to abuse aboute this holy misterie and aboute other thinges we read not that they spurned against the holy goost as you do whan they were called to refourmacion Standish Se also I praye you how he saieth et cetera Couerdale Yf you shulde saye that for lack of a better ye dyd write agaynst this protestacion of D. Barnes wolde ye therfore be iudged to thynke that there were not many better lerned men in England to take such a matter in hande then you Barnes THen sayde he haue ye anye thing els to saye There was one then asked him his opynion of prayeng to sayntes Then sayd he Now of saintes you shall heare myne opynion I haue sayd before somwhat I thynke of them how that I beleue they are in heauē and with god and that they are worthy of all the honour that scripture willeth them to haue But I saye through out al scripture we are not commaunded to pray to any sayntes therfore I can not ner will not preach to you that sayntes ought to be praied vnto For then shuld I preach you a doctryne of myne owne head Standish Ther is an olde heresie that saieth sayntes be not yet in heauen et cet Couerdale Is this your next waye to confute him that saieth we are not cōmaunded in scripture to praie to anye saintes Ye brawll with the deed man that saieth nothinge against you in this article of saintes being in heauen Standishe How can it be in scripture thou impudent heretike the prayer vnto saintes Couerdale Be good to the poore man and take not the matter so whote He goeth not aboute to proue that your prayeng to sayntes is grounded in scripture Standish As for in the tyme of the olde lawe et cet Couerdale The doctrine of god is that Christ is the lambe which hath bene slayne sens the begynnyng of the worlde that is euen he whose power and deliueraunce hath clensed and saued all thē that euer put their trust in him Christ Iesus yesterdaie and todaie and the same contynueth for euer Standish Therfore concerning praieng to saintes et cet Couerdale Must we beleue the testimony of men without it be grounded on gods worde Are ye become such an Apostle Because the church and congregacion of Christ must discerne iudge trie and examen all maner of doctryne and so to eschue the euell and kepe the good hath it therfore auctorite to make anye new article or to receaue a doctryne contrary to gods worde Because Christ hath promised his holy sprete of trueth to be allwaye in his faithfull congregacion shall they therfore make ordeyne set vp or beleue ought that is contrary to his owne teachinge Standish Doest thou set nomore by the auctorite of it then so in asmuch as S. Augustyne sayde Non crederem Euangelio nisi crederim Ecclesie et cet Couerdale Euen as ye peruerte the wordes of holy scripture so do ye with S. Augustine As ye choppe and chaunge with it so do ye with him And as ye alledge the scripture for another purpose then the plaine circumstaunce of the text meaneth so do ye here with this holy doctoure For youre purpose is with S. Augustines wordes to proue that youre church by her auctorite may make new articles and that we are bounde to beleue as she beleueth though the same be not grounded in scripture But yf men diligently marke S. Augustynes sayeng the occasion of his wryting and the circumstaunce therof it shall be euydent that ye are as like him in vnderstondinge as the moone is like a grene chese S. Augustyne perceauynge the greate hurte that was growyng thorow the doctryne of wicked Manicheus toke in hande to confute him and his secte his errours were so noisome and deuelish For he had not onely fayned a new gospell of his owne and named himselfe Christes Apostle but also mainteined the heresie which the Anabaptistes lately helde that the sonne of god toke not the nature of man of the blessed virgin and denied rulers to beare office denied mariage denied certayne kyndes of meates to be of god or to be graunted vnto Christen men Taught also that some mens soules dye with the bodyes despysed the exterior worde of god and mynistracion therof and sought other visions without it And many other fond and wicked opynions had he vnknowne to the holy church and flock of Christ Now for the refelling of such pestilent doctryne S. Augustine among other thinges wrote one speciall boke agaynst a certayne Epistle of the Manichees which was called Epistola fundamenti and whan he had shewed the occasions which moued him to abyde still within the vnyte of Christes catholike church then in the fifth chapter he shewed the cause that moued him rather to geue credence vnto Christes gospell then to Manicheus where among other he saieth these wordes Nostis n. me statuisse nihil avobis prolatū temere credere et cet For ye knowe saieth he that I am determined to geue no haistie credence to anye thing that ye speake of your awne heades I demaunde therfore Who is that Manicheus Ye answere An Apostle of Christ I beleue it not Now what canst thou saye or do thou shalt not opteine for thou dyddest promes knowlege of the trueth and now thou wilt compell me to beleue the thinge that I knowe not Peraduenture thou wilt reade me the gospell and therby wilt thou assaie to affirme the parson̄e of Manicheus Yf I shulde fynde anye man then which as yet beleueth not the gospel what shuldest thou do to him that sayeth vnto the I beleue not As for me I shulde not beleue the gospell vnlesse the auctorite of the catholike church dyd moue