the Church of Rome since the Apostles dayes Which Position is indeed the iuncture without which the whole frame almost of all other Controuersies hang loose Doctour Whitakers vndertaks to proue the Contrary In whom rather then in any other Protestant I haue peculiarly and ex professo made choyce to personate all the speeches and arguments vsed to proue this supposed change in the Church of Rome principally because there is no Protestant wryter that I know who hath so much prosecuted this presumed change as Doctour Whitakers hath done as appeareth in his Bookes agaynst the Cardinall himselfe agaynst Father Campion that blessed Saint and cheifly against Duraeus where the Doctour vndertaketh to instance diuers examples of this imaginary Reuolt Yet here you are to conceaue that I haue not so dwelled in the only wrytings of Doctour Whitakers as that I neglect what other Protestants haue also written in maintenance of this change for I assure you I haue omitted nothing of Moment which I could fynd in their Bookes to be obiected in proofe thereof though Doctour Whitakers is introduced to deliuer or speake it And withall I haue made speciall references to their Books where such their sentences or authorities are to be found And yet learned Men notwithstanding all that which can be vrged by any of them in this behalfe sooner shall they prooue that the fixed starrs haue changed their postures situations in their Orbe then that Rome hath changed it fayth So true are those words of an auncient Father Vetus Roma ab antiquis temporibus habere rectam fidem semper eam retinet What sentences authorities or instances of change Doctour Whitakers hath vsed in any of his Bookes by me alledged the same I haue set downe with citation of the Books and in a seuerall Character from that which he speaketh at large in the person of a Protestant and this to the end that the Reader may seuer the Doctours owne words from the words of a Protestant in generall In like sort what intemperate speeches euen loaded with malice and rancour the Doctourâ—seth â—seth against the Church of Rome are not by me forged and fathered vpon him But are especially those which are most virulent his owne words yet extant in his Bookes and accordingly they are printed in a different letter with the Latin words set in the margent So carefull I am not to wrong the Doctour by vniustly obtruding vpon him any scurrilous and vndecent Inuectiues or Pasquills The Conclusion consisteth in retorting that vpon our Aduersartes where with they here charge the Church of Rome I meane in demonstrating that it is the Protestant who hath made in fayth this change and innouation from the auncient fayth of the Apostles And thus by comparing these two contrary fayths doctrines together and the antiquity of the one and innouation of the other you shall find that errour is best knowne by truth as death is knowne bylife Now here your ingenuities are to suppose for the tyme that Cardinall Bellarmine and Doctour Whitakers are at this present liuing In like sort that the Cardinall hath read all bookes written either in Latin or English which are in this Dialogue alleadged Which like supposalls you are also to make in the other subsequent Dialogues touching the Persons in them produced as that they are now liuing and that they all liued at one tyme c. All which imaginations are fully iustifiable in the true methode of Dialogues since in this kind of writing the Persons you know are forged for the matter and not the matter for the Persons And thus much touching the first Dialogue Now to descend to the second Dialogue The subiect wherof is to demonstrate that the visibility of the Protestant Church cannot be iustifyed from the Primitiue Church much lesse from the Apostles dayes till Luthers reuolt And which is more that not any one Man during all that long Period of tyme nor Luther himselfe can be truly insisted vpon for a perfect absolute Protestant and such as the present Church of England can or will acknowledge to be a member of it Which point being once euicted How deadly it woundeth the Protestants may easily appeare in regard of the euer necessary and vndeniable visibility of Christs true Church whose expansion enlargment and vneclypsed radiancy at all tymes is much celebrated in Holy writ Her sunne shall not be set nor her Moone hid as will more fully appeare bereafter in it due place The interlocutours are the foresayd Michaeas the Iew Ochinus who first in King Edward the sixt his dayes did diseminate Protestancy at least seuer all points of Protestancy here lâ— England Doctour Reynolds of Oxford and Neuserus chiefe Pastour of Heidelberg in the Palatinate Why Ochinus Neuserus are brought in as speakers in this Dialogue the Argument prefixed therto will show I haue presumed to incorporate most of what can be vrged for the visibility of the Protestant Church in Doctour Reynolds as a Man who was best able in his dayes to support his owne Church from ruyne And sutably herto the supposed place of this disputation is Oxford I haue in no sort wronged the Doctour whom I well know to haue bene a blazing Comet in your Euang elicall spheare to whom as being of good temperance in his writings in respect of his brother Doctour Whitakers I am vnwtlling to ascrybe too litle only I wish his fauorits had not ascrybed to him too much If any of you shall muse why in these Dialogues all the Protestants being otherwise presumed to be most learned do reply so sparingly eyther to Cardinall Bellarmyne or to Michaeas their answeres and arguments as here you shall find them to do you are to conceaue that it is agreed in the begining of the two first Dialogues among all the Interlocutours to stand indisputably to the freqrent Confessions of the learned Protestants vrged in behalfe of any poynt controuerted Now both the Cardinall and Michaeâ—s for the most part do auoyd the other Interlocutours reasons and instances by the contrary acknowledgments of diuers eminent Protestants as also do produce their owne arguments in defence of their Catholicke articles from the like acknowledgments of the learned Protestants speaking in those points agaynst themselues and in behalfe of the Catholickes Which method being chiefly houlden throughout these Dialogues how then can the Protestant Interlocutours continue any new reply agaynst the Caidinall or agaynst Michaeas But to reflect vpon the subiect of this second Dialogue And here I do auouch that to maintayne that Protestancy was euer before the breaking out of Luther though euen then it was not in it perfection is no lesse absurd in reason then to maintayne that the byrth of any thing can precede it conception and the effect the cause True it is that in diuers former ages there haue bene some secret and indeed blind Moules who working vnder the foundation of the Roman Church haue labored
Faith Secondly we will enquire and set downe the acknowledged continuance of that time during all which season the now present Faith of Rome hath continued That is how longe Papistry as you commonly tearme it hath bene publikly professed and taught throughout all Christendome Thirdly and lastly we will then take a view of the times betweene these two former seuerall times for these two times being once acknowliged on all sides to wit the time during which the Church of Rome confessedly kept her first Faith taught by the Apostles and the time during which the present Romane Faith hath continued from this day vpward it ineuitably followeth that this supposed change of Religion did either happen in the interstitium and meane time betweene the two former Periods of times or els that there hapened no such chang in Religion in the Church of Rome at all Now concerning the first of these times how long in the Protestants iudgements M. Doctour did the Church of Rome retayne without staine or alteration in any point of moment or Article of beliefe for that only is to be enquired the Faith first deseminated by the Apostles D. WHITAKERS I will confesse in all ingenuity that diuers of our owne learned Brethren do teach that Rome retained her purity of Fayth without any such alteration by you intimated till after the deaths of Optatus Epiphanius and Augustine which is during the space of foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ CARD BELLARMINE You say most truely and I do like your playnesse herein since he is truely politike espetially in matters of Religion which require all candour in theire menaging who is not politicke For wheras our Catholicke writers haue much insisted that Tertullian prouoked the Heretickes of his daies to the Succession of the Bishops of Rome your owne D. Fulke giueth this reason touching such his prouocation in these words The argument then drawne from Succession was good because the Church of Rome retained by Succession vntill Tettullians dates that Faith which it did first receaue from the Apostles To whose iudgment in this particular reason your selfe M. Doctour in your booke writen against me subscribs thus saying from hence we do vnderstaÌ„d why TertulliaÌ„ did appeale to those Churches to wit because the Churches did then hould the Apostolicall Doctrine by a perpetuall succession But to descend further in time touching the graunted preseruation of the Faith of Rome wheras in like manner some Chatholicke Authors haue alledged the same argumeÌ„t drawne from the Succession of Bishops by the example of Irenaeus Cyprian Optatus Hierome Vincentius Lyrinensis and Augustine all which Fathers most rested in the Succession of the Bishops of Rome still continued till their daies your foresaid D. Fulke answereth in behalfe of the sayd Fathers in this sort That these Fathers especially named the Church of Rome it was because the Church of Rome at that time as it was founded by the Apostles so it continued in the Doctrine of the Apostles With whome accordeth D. lewell saying Aswell Augustine as also other godly Fathers rightly yealded reuerence to the Sea of Rome c. for the purity of Religion which was there preserued a loÌ„g time without spot To conclude Caluine himselfe euen in the same manner answereth the foresayd argument of Succession of Bishops in the Church of Romê insisted vpon by Irenaeus Tertullian Origen Augustine Optatus Epiphanius and others for thus Caluine speaketh Cùm extra controuersiam esset nihil à principio vsque ad aetâ—â—tem illam mutatum fuisse in doctrina c. Seing it was a Poynt out of Controuersy that nothing in doctrine froÌ„ the beginning to that very age was changed these holy Fathers did take that which they thought sufficient for the destroying of all new Errours to wit the doctrine constantly and with an vnanimous consent retayned euen from the Apostles dayes till their tymes Thus Caluine To these fromer I may alledge that Sentence out of D. Fulke saying The Popish Church c. departed from the Vniuersall Church of Christ long since Augustins departure out of this lyfe Thus he granting that till S. Augustins death the Church of Rome was the true Church so euident and clere we se it is that the Church of Rome neuer changed her Religion from the Apostles first Planting of it vntill the times of S. Augustin Epiphanius Optatus c. which was as is aboue sayd foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ Thus farre M. Doctor concerning the durance of the tymes euen by the Protestants frequent confessions that no change of fayth was made in the Church of Rome Tonching which poynt Irefere you for greater satisfaction to certaine quoted places of the aforesayed Fathers to wit of Hierome Ireâ—aeus Augustine Vincentius Lyrâ—neâ—sis Ambrose c. All which Fathers in their writings do constantly auerre that the Faith preached in their dayes in the Church of Rome was the true Fayth and consequently was neither then nor afore subiect to change or alteration Now all this being made thus euident it followeth according to our designed Method that we consider the number of those ages during the lenght of all which from this day vpwards the present Roman Fayth hath by the lyke Confession of the Learned Protestants bene generally taught Seing how long the Protestants bene generally taught Seing how long the Protestants do grant that the Church of Rome hath from this day contined in her present Faith so long it followeth by their owne implicit censures and most necessary inferences that the Church of Rome neuer altered her Fayth Therfore M. Doctour I would know of you what your learned Men do generally teach about the continuance and antiquity of our present Roman and Catholicke Religion D. WHITAKERS I will not deny but that our Doctours do ascrybe an antiquity to your Popish Fayth for a thousand yeares at least For first D. Humfry my worthy sy'mmachos cai symmy'stes shewing what Religion Augustine planted in England being sent by Gregory the Great then Pope of Rome who liued in the yeare 590 thus instanceth in the particular points of the then Roman Religion In Ecclesiam verò quid inuexerunt Gregorius et Augustinus Onus ceremoniarum c. what did Gregory and Angustine bringé into the Church They did bring a burden of Ceremonies They did bring in the Archiepiscopall Pall for the solemnization of the Masse They did bring in Purgatory c. the oblation of the Healthfull Oast and prayer for the dead c. Relicks Transubstantiation c. a new conscecratioÌ„ of Temples c. from all which what other thing is effected then the introducing of Indulgences Monachisme Papisme and the rest of the Chäos of Popish Superstition all this did Augustine the great Monke being instructed herein by Gregory the Monke bring to the English men Thus farre D. Humfry CARD BELLARM. Well then M. Doctour it clearely appeares by this that
owne death Neither lastly if not any historiographer of the Iewish tymes did in their workes and writings giue the least touch therof But pardon me both of you for this my interrupting and I would intreat you to proceede further in this your learned discourse CARD BELLARM. I will satisfie your request but before I descend to any other argument I will annex to my former demonstration for I can tearme it no lesse drawne from the silence of Doctours in contradicting and Historiographers in relating any presumed innouations in the Church of Rome these ensuing Considerations 1 First we finde that the lesse iustifiable liues conuersatioÌ„ in manners of some few Popes were precisely regestred and recorded to all Posterity with intention perhaps to disgrace all Popes as if all Popes were to be represented in some one or other lesse vertuous Pope as all men are in Adam Now then this being most true can we probably thinke that the Historians of those ages being euer ready prepared to taxe the Personall vices of the Popes themselues who as you see were forced by this meanes to passe the Red sea of shame disgrace and obloquy all of them would be wholy silent in relating the greatest change in Religion that euer happened if any such chang had truly really bin effected 2 Secondly we all knowe that the Greeke Church hath bin for many ages emulous of the Church of Rome and therfore if the present Church of Rome had anciently made any Diuision or Scissure from the true Church of Christ the Grecians no doubt who then stood euer vpon the hight of Enâ—â—y the better presently to espy any arising aduantage against the church of Rome would haue bene most apt to recommend the memory of such a change in our church to all after ages in their Histories But no such records we finde in any of their writings Yea the Grecians are so far from that as that on the contrary side the present Church of Rome is able to specifie and note out of most ancient and approoued Authours the very times when the Grecians first introduced those particuler Opinions wherin at this day they dessint from our Roman and catholicke church I will insist for breuity in some few cheife examples First their deniall of Obedience to the Sea of Rome was begun by Iohn of Constantinople and was noted and writen against by Gregory the Great and Pelagius Their denial of the proceedings of the Holy Ghost from the Father and the Sonne tooke it beginning and at it first rysing was gainsaid and contradicted about the yeare 764. Their deniall of prayer for the dead was begun by Arius and impugned by Epiphanius l and Augustine Their bringing in of leauened bread by the Grecians in the celeberation of the Eucharist was first begun about the yeare 1053. as appeareth out of the writings of Leo the nynth and the Centurists Now can it be imagined that those being few in number could so precisely be contradicted writen against and left regestâ—ed to all posterity and yet this supposed change of the church of Rome consisteth in bringing in of far more Articles in number and of as great consequence should neuer be noted nor impunged by any one Doctour or Father nor recorded nor obserued by any one Historiographer the said Doctours Fathers Historiographers liuing in the very same ages wherin this supposed alteration is sayd to haue hapned By the same ground might Pythâ—goras well maintayne as in his books he attempted to do that the earth being in speciall motion of 24 houres our selues because we are carryed together with this reuolution cannot obserue that any such motion of the earth is 3 Thirdy we may call to mind that wheras the Ceremonies in the celeberation of the Masse were successiuely and at seuerall tymes added and first brought in by seuerall Popes So we finde accordingly that the Aduersaries of the present Church of Rome as willing to discouer our innouations though in the smalest matters for Malice is glade to take hould of the least aduantage and but in points of indifferency haue most diligently and painfully recorded them in their seuerall bookes written of this very subiect with all due circumstances both of the Popes introducing them and the tymes when they were introduced Here now I vrge If the Enemyes of the present Church of Rome being thus diligent and sollicitous in noting the beginning of eich Ceremony of the Masse all such Ceremonies being meerely accidentall to the Masse and without which the Masse may as truly and effectually be celebrated as with them If they I say could haue discouered any innouation in the maine Doctrine it selfe of the Masse as in the Doctrine of the Reall Presence the Sacrifice of Christs body there offered vp our Adoration of the Sacrament the Priests enioyned chastity for such his celebration would they haue bin silent therin or rather would they not haue loaded their books with the relation of all such innouations they consisting not in smale ceremonies but in most sublime and high dogmaticall points of Christian Religion If otherwise then belike our Aduersaries would haue vs to thinke that herin they resemble the Sunne which reuealeth the Terrestriall Globe being but of a litte quantity but concealeth the Celestiall which is of a far more spatious greatnes But to proceed and to conclude the force of this argument drawne from the impugning and recording of innouations in doctrine if this precise course by our Aduersaryes acknowledgments hath euer bin kept during all precedent ages without intermission in all matters confessed and out of controuersy betweene vs and the Protestants shall we dreame that it was so wholy neglected and forgotteÌ„ touching the supposed innouation of our Catholicke Doctrines as that such our cheife doctrines though first really brought in in those former tymes were neither at there first beginning impugned by any Doctours or Fathers of those ages nor recorded or mentioned by any one Ecclesiasticall Historiographer among so many of the same or later tymes But now to vndertake according to your desire Micheas an other argument You Protestants M. Doctour do affirme that this our present Roman Religion is Antichristian for so commonly most of you in your charitable language do stile it and that the Pope is the true Antichrist deciphered by the Apostle for his first introducing and defending of the sayd Religion and vpon this ground you teach that Papistry first came in when Antichrist first came in D. WHITAKERS We do so teach indeed For seing our mayne assertioÌ„ is that your Religion is Antichristian we cannot euen by the nature of Relatiues seuer and deuide so indissoluble companions they are the one from the other I meane Papistrie from Antichrist he being the Man who first did disseminate it and now the heade who cheifly principally and with all wicked molitions and machinations whatsoeuer maintayns it CARD BELLARM. You are M. Doctour it
Greeke word or phrase carieth with it a greater grace emphecy and force then the same in Latin or English will beare But this I euer auerre that to be ready vpon euery little occasion to prostitute or staule forth ones Greeke a disteÌ„perature peculiar to Protestants as if he tooke a pride in that he is skilfull in coniugating of typtò This man I say deserues to be verberated throughout all the moodes and tences of the word for such his folly This course being among all graue learned men iustly censured for an exploded vanity But now M. Doctour to descend to your reason touched aboue and drawne from the authority of the holy Scripture Here I say you haue taken your last Sanctuary not in that the Scripture maketh for you and against vs but that by this meanes you may the better reiect all other authorities though neuer so forcible reduce the triall of all coÌ„trouersies to your owne priuat Iudgments since you will acknowledge no other seÌ„ce of the scripture theÌ„ what the Genius of ProtestaÌ„cy doth vouchsafe to impose vpon the Letter thus by your faire pretended Glosse of the Scripture in this your last extremity you Protestants well reseÌ„ble that Man who being ready to fall thinketh not how to preuent the fall but how to fall in the fayrest and easiest place The like I say you do vnder the priuiledge of the reuealing spirit interpreting the Scripture the vaine fluctuating vncertainty of which Spirit to discouer though this place be not capable therof were indeed to cut in sunder the cheife Artery which giueth life to the huge Body of Heresie since once take away this Priuate Spirit Heresie is but like a dying laÌ„pe which hath no oyle to feede it Only I will here pronouÌ„ce that as some haue thus left written That must be good which Nero persecuteth so here I do iustify by the contrary that it must be euill and false which the Priuate Spirit affecteth and manteineth But let vs proceed herein further and dissect the veine of this your last most despayring tergiuersation First then wee are to call to minde that it hath euer beene the very countenance and eye of all innouation in religion to seeke to support it selfe by misapplyed and racked Texts of Scripture a practise so anciently vsed though in these later dayes it hath receaued more full groath as that it was obserued by Augustine Hierome Tertullian and finally by old Vincentius Lyrinensis who thus expressely writeth not only of his owne times but euen in a presaging spirit of our times An Haeretici diuinis Scripturae testimoniis vtantur Viuntur planè vehementer quidem Sed tantò magis cauendi suâ—â— Now this being so you are forced M. Doctour for your last retire and refuge to compart in practise with all ancient and moderne Hereticks Secondly the Scripture cannot prooue it selfe to be scripture and consequently it is not able to decide all controuersies which assertion of mine is warranted by your prime men M. Hooker thus teaching Of things necessary the very cheifest is to know what bookes wee are bound to esteeme holy which poynt is confessed impossible for the scripture it selfe to teach And according hereto you Protestants do not agree which Bookes be Canonicall Scripture which Apocriphall For doth not Luther and diuers of the Lutherans recite as apocriphall the booke of Iob Ecclesiastes the Epistle of S. Iames the Epistle of Iude the secoÌ„d Epistle of Peter the secoÌ„d and third of Iohn and finally the Apocalipes All which bookes are neuerthelesse acknowledged by Caluin and the Caluenists for canonicall Scripture Thirdly euen of those bookes which all Protestants ioyntly receiue as Canonicall Scripture the Protestants doe coÌ„demne as most false and corrupt not only the present originals but also all Translations of the said bookes whether they be made in Greeke Latin or English as apeareth from the reciprocall condemnations of one anothers Translation for the more full discouery of which point I referre you M. Doctour to the perusing of a booke some few yeares since written by a Catholicke Priest and Doctour of diuinity entituled The Pseudoscripturists Fourthly the very text and letter of such bookes as you all acknowledg for Canonicall Scripture are more cleere for our Catholicke Faith and in that sence are expounded by the ancient Fathers then any the Countertexts are which you produce to impunge our doctrine For some tast I will exemplify the perspicuity of the letter in some few points And first for the Primacy of Peter we alleadge Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I will build my Church c. expounded With vâ—by Augustine Hierome Cyprian others For the Reall Presence we insist in our Sauiours words This is my Body this is my Blood taken in our sense by Theophilact Chrysostome the Cyrils Ambrose and indeed by all the ancient Fathers without exception For Priests remitting of sinnes we vrge that whose sinnes you shall renut they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes you shall reteine are reteyned which passage is interpreted in our Catholicke sence by Hierome Chrisostome Augustine and others For Necessity of Baptisme Except a a Man be borne againe of water and the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdome of Heauen Of which our Catholicke exposition see Augustine Chrisostome Ambrose Hierome Cyprian c. For Iustification by works Do you see because of works a man is Iustisied and not by Faith only expounded with vs to omit all others for breuity by Augustine Lastly to auoid prolixitie for vnwritten Traditions we vsually alleadge those words of the Apostle Therefore Brethren hold the Traditions which you haue receiued either by steach or by Epistle interpreted with vs Catholicks by Damâ—scene Basill Chrysostome c. Thus farre for a â—ast herein in which Texts and diuers others omitted you are to note M. Doctour first that the Texts themselues are so plaine and literall that the very Thesis or Conclusion it selfe mantained by vs is conteined in the Words of the said Texts and therefore you Protestants are forced by way of answere commonly to expound those texts figuratiuely Secondly you are to be aduertised here that as we can produce many Fathers expounding these and other like places in our Catholicke sence so you are not able to alleadge any one approoued Father among so many interpreting but any one of the said passages of scripture in your Protestant Construction Thirdly and lastly you are to obserue that such texts as the Protestants vrge against these other Catholicke Articles defended by vs are nothing so literall plaine and naturall for their purpose but for the most part are vrged by them by way of inference and deduction which kinde of proofs is often false and sometimes but probable Neither can you or
they alleadge any one Orthodoxall Father of the Primitiue Church a circumstance much to be considered and insisted vpon interpreting such your testimonies in your construction And thus farre of this point where for greater expedition I do but skimme the matter ouer D. WHITAKERS I do not much prize the authorities of the ancient Fathers in interpreting the Scripture And furthermore you are to conceiue that seing the scripture hath not viâ—am vocem which we may heare Therefore we are to vse certaine meanes by the which we may finde out which is the sence and construction of the scripture For to seeke it without meanes is meerely ' enthysiasticòn et Anabaptisticum Now the meanes according to my iudgment and M. Doctour Reinolds are these following The reading of the scriptures the conference of places the weighing of the circumstances of the Text Skill in tongues diligence prayer and the like And who hath these and accordingly practiseth them is assured of finding the true and vndoubted meaning of the most difficult passages of the scripture and thereby is able to determine any controuersies in Religion CARD BELLARM. I do grant that these are good humane meanes for the searching out of the intended sence of the scripture But I will neuer yeild them to be infallible as here you intimate theÌ„ to be since this is not only impugned by experience of Luther and Caluin who would no doubt equally vaunt of their enioying these meanes and yet irreconcileably differ in the construction of the words of our Sauiour touching the Sacrament of the Eucharist but also it is most contrary to your owne assertion deliuered in one of your bookes euen against my selfe where you write of the vncertainty and perhaps falshood of these Meanes in this manner obserue what the meanes are such of necessity must the interprteation be but the meanes of interpreting obscure places of scripture are vncertaine doubtfull and ambiguous therefore it cannot otherwise fall out but that the interpretation must be vncertayne and if vncertaine then may it be false Thus you M. Doctonr and if I haue in any sort depraued your words then here challenge me for the same Now what say you to this Can it possible be that your selfe should thus crosse your selfe Or may it be imagined that your penne at vnawares did drop downe so fowle a blot of contradictioÌ„ O God forbid The ouersight were too greate Therefore we will charitably reconcile all and say that D. Whitakers Bellarmines aduersary in writing hath only contradicted the learned D. Whitakers cheife ornament of Cambridge But enough of this point from whence the weakenesse of this your last refuge to only scripture is sufficiently layd open MICHEAS I grant I am not conuersant in the authorities of the New Testament as they haue reference to the controuerted points of these dayes since my cheife labour hath beene employed in diligently reading the Law and the Prophets neuerthelesse I am acertayned M. Doctour that seuerall passages of the said Law and Prophets in a plaine and ingenuous construction do greatly fortify some Opinions defended by the Church of Rome I will insist for greater compendiousnes in two opinions taught as I am informed by the sayd Church within which two many other controuersies if not all are implicitl infolded The first is touching the euer Visibility of the Church in the time of the Messiâ—s Now what can be more irrefragably prooued then this article out of those words of the Psalmist He placed his Tabernacle in the Sunne As also out of that passage of Daniell Akingdome which shall not be dissipated for euer and his kingdome shall not be deliuered to an other people Agayne out of the Prophet Esay A Mountaine prepared in the top of Mountaines and exalted aboue Hills And finally more out of Esay Her Sunne shall not be set nor her Moone hid In all which predictions by the words Tabernacle a Kingdome a Mountaine her Sunne is vnderstood the Church in the time of the Messias according to the expositions of all our learned Iewes and Rabbins interpreting and commenting the sayd Prophesies The second article may be the Controuersie touching Free-will which I heare is mainteined by the Church of Rome but denyed by the Protestants within which question diuers others to wit of Predestination Reprobation the keeping of the Commandements Works c. are potentially included Now how euidently is Free-will prooued out of the writings of the Old Testament And first may occurre that of Ecclesiasticus He hath set Water and fire before thee stretch forth thy hand to whether thou wilt Before man is life death good and euill what liketh him shal be giuen him what more conuincing D. WHITAKERS Micheas I make smale accoumpt of that place of Ecclesiasticus neither will I beleeue the freedome of Mans will although he should affirme it a hundred times ouer that before man were life and death MICHEAS I did not expect M. Doctour that you should expunge out of the Canon of Scripture any part of the Old Testament but since you discanon this booke I will alleadge other places which were euer acknowledged for the sacred word of God by vs Iewes and to pretermit that text in Genefis of Caine hauing liberty ouer sinne as a place strangely detorted by some and diuers other texts in the old Testament proouing the same What say you of the like passage in Deuteronomy I call heauen and earth in record this day against you that I haue set before you life and death c. choose therefore life Where you see the very point of which you are so diffideÌ„t is ingeminated and reinforced Thus M. Doctour you see how much these sacred Testimonies do wound you herein as also do diuers other passages by me here omitted euicting Mans Free-Will though all of them haue bene accordingly interpreted by all ancient Iews and Rabbins as more fully you may see in Galatinus D. VVHITAKERS Touching your testimonies produced out of the old Testament and interpreted in the Papists sence by your owne Iewish Rabbins as witnesseth Galatinus take this for my answere I do not regard or neede your Galatinns neither do I rely vpon the testimonies of the Hebrewes And further knowe you both that it is as cleare that the scripture maketh for vs who are the Professours of the Ghosple as it is cleare that the Sunne shineth in his brightest Meridian Since we Protestants are d the little flocke we haue the vnction from the Holy one and can cry Abba Pater from all which the Papists are wholy excluded And this is sufficient to ouerthrow the proudest Romanist breathing CARD BELLARM. Sweete Iesus that thinges sacred should be thus prophaned and that the words of the scripture should be thus detorted from the intended sence of the scripture when all proofes whatsoeuer from the vninterrupted practise of Gods Church from the ioynt and most frequent
Lyons And did professe as D. Humfrey affirmeth a kind of Monasticall life And finally labored to Pope Innocentius the third to haue their Order confirmed but could not preuayle as Vspergensis witnesseth in his Chronicle Secondly The Heresyes mantayned by VValdo and his followers are such as that you M. D. in regard of their defence of them cannot challenge them for Protestants For first they taught that maryed Persons mortally sinned in hauing the Act of Matrimony without hope of Procreation as testifyeth Illyricus the Protestant They also did hould all embracements marke this gotishe doctrine and things donne aboue the girdle as touching kissing words compression of the papps c. to be done in charity They further taught that neither Priests nor ciuill Magistrats being guilty of mortall sinne did enioy their dignity or were to be obeyed That Laymen and VVomen might consecrate and preach That Clergy Men ought to haue no possessions That men ought not to sweare in any case They went to the Catholicke Churches dissemblingly confessed communicated dissemblingly Finally to omit some others they condemned all Princes and Iudges And thus far M. D. and you two learned Men to proue that VValdo and his followers were no Protestants though it is not denyed but that some one poynt or other of protestancy they might mantaine and consequently that the example of them is defectiue to proue the Visibility of the Protestant Church in their dayes NEVSERVS But what say you Michaeas of the Albigenses and the rest aboue mentioned by M. Doctour Were not all they Protestants MICHAEAS I grant they are marshalled among Protestants by D. Fulke and D. Abbots But here M. D. you are either deceaued or which I thinke not intend to deceaue For here the Albigenses are brought for shew only of greater variety of dishes the better to furnish the table of Protestancy Whereas indeede they were of the same Sect with the Waldenses or rather the same Men according to the iudgments of D. Abbots and D. Fulke For D. Abbots thus writeth These Leonists or poore Men of Lyons and waldenses and Albigenses were the same Men but diuersly and vpon diuers occasions tearmed by the Romish Sinagogue And D. Fulke sayth the same in these words They are called the VValdenses by the vulgar Papists as also by others they are named the poore Men of Lyons Leonists Albigenses or by what other name it pleased the Sycophants of Antichrist Now these Albigenses be who they will eyther the same with the Waldenses or not as they mantayned some points of Protestancy so with all euen by the testimony of Osiander the Protestant they taught diuers execrable Heresyes The words of Osiander are these Albigensibus dogmata haec attribuuntur Duo esse principia Deum videlicet bonum Deum malum hoc est Diabolum c. These opinions are ascribed to the Albigenses That there are two Principles to wit a good God and a bad God which is the Deuill and who created all bodyes as the good God did all soules c. They do reiect Baptisme and they say to go to Churches and to pray in them is not profitable c. They condemne Mariage do allow as holy promiscuous concubitus al promiscuous lying togeather how wicked soeuer c. Thy deny the resurrectiō of the body that Christ was true Man Thus far Osander who also sayth The opinions of the Albigenses are absurd wicked hereticall finally tearmeth their spirits an Anabaptisticall furye And D. Cowper of Winchester maketh like mention of their absurd Heresyes A point so acknowledged that D. Iewell wholy disclaymeth from the Albigenses as Protestants saying thus plainly They be none of ours Touching the Apostolici or Henricians they are so far from beinge Protestants as that they are acknowledged for Heretyks by D Fulke D. Iewel and Osiander who reports their Heresyes But to proceed forward to other of your Examples Peter Bruis is censured for an Hereticke by Osiander and Hospinian who relates his Heresyes Almaricus his Heresies are reported by Osiander himselfe reiected for an Hereticke and not acknowledged for a Protestant by the said Osiander neyther by D. Iewell who speaking of the Albigenses the Apostolici and Almaricus saith as before they be none of ours And thus far Gentlemen touching the VValdenses the Albigenses the Apostolici or Henricians Peter Bruis and Almaricus D. REYNOLDS I see no reason but that we may be iustly distrustfull in giuing ouer much credit to the wryting of former tymes which charge the Waldenses Albigenses and the rest with the Heresyes by you recited And if such wrytings were eyther false in himselfs o◠but forged only through deceate and confederacy of their Enemyes then may the said Men well be reputed for true and perfect Protestants MICHAEAS If you M. D. be so diffident as that contrary to the iudgment of Osiander Hospinian and other Prtestants you will not beleiue the writings of former tymes charging Waldo and the rest in this passage or discourse mentioned with the Heresyes afore alleadged then what colour can you pretend why you should giue Credit to those Writings of the same tyme which affirme that the foresaid Men beleiued certaine Opinions of Protestancy And therefore it followeth by force of all Reason that such Writings affirming both the one and the other are eyther ioyntly to be beleiued and credited or ioyntly to be reiected as false and forged And the rather seing the Reporters of those tymes did impartially and indifferently recite and condemne all those opinions wherein the foresaid Hereticks dissented from the Church of Rome without any foreknowledge which of the said Opinions would eyther be approued or reiected by Men of this age So weake you see M. D. is this your Replye OCHINVS I am of iudgment that the VValdenses and the rest can 〈…〉 truly be reputed for Protestants in regard of the reasons alledged by you Michaas And I do hould that your last reply M. D. touching the vncertainty of the credit of those wrytings charging the VValdenses and all the other with Heresyes is most firmely auoyded by Michaas NEVSERVS I am of the same iudgement with Ocbinus herein And the truth is we do much wrong the honour of our Church by pretending such vnworthy Men for members thereof But proceede M. D. to higher tymes D. REYNOLDS In the precedent ages to these former if credit may be giuen to authenticall Historyes there were not only many Protestants but euen seuerall Bookes then written in defence of the Protestant Religion As the Authour of the Booke written against Images in the name of Carolus Magnus Bertram Vlrick Berengarius c. All or any of which to denye to haue bene Protestants were to infringe all authority of Ecclesiasticall History MICHAEAS There are not any of these you haue named as much I may
say as of the halfeblood to a Protestant so little affinity there is betweene the Protestants Religion and these Mens religion I grant that some Protestants and these but very few and of meane esteeme do instance through their security of better examples in these your mentioned men but how coldy and weakly we will now discouer And first touching the Booke written against Images in the name of Carolus Magnus I say first that booke concerneth only but one point of Religion and consequently it can giue no proofe of Protestancy in those dayes Secondly I auer that it was forged by some Heretike that denyed the doctrine of Images perhapps in those dayes but neuer made or allowed by Carolus Magnus This I prooue first because Carolus Magnus was wholy addicted and deuoted to the Church of Rome and it fayth in generall And therefore the lesse probable it is that he should wrâ—t or suffer to be written in his name any booke inpugning but any one point of that Religion I will relate the words of Hospinian the Protestant touching his affection to the Catholicke fayth Thus be sayth Carolus Magnus nonsolum publicis edictis c. Charles the Great did not only command by publike Edicts that the Ceremonyes rites the Latin Masse of the Church of Rome and other decresse and Instituts of the Pope of Rome should be obserued through out the whole Empyre but also himselfe did force the Churches to these obseruations vnder payne of impresonments and other kinds of punishments with whom also conspireth in iudgment herein Crispinus M. Cowper and Osiander Secondly in that it is acknowledged by learned writers that Carolus Magnus was an enemy to those who impugned Images For Paulus Aemilius witnesseth that Carolus did send twelue Bishops vnto a Councel houlden at Rome vnder Pope Steuen in confutation of the errour of the Grecians against Images The same doctrine of Images as defended by Carolus is further confessed by the Centurists D. Cowper and by Ioannes Aurelianensis who liued in the tyme of Carolus Magnus Thirdly and lastly there are suspicious of the forgery of that Booke For it appeareth out of the booke of Pope Adrian to Carolus Magnus which booke was purposely written against that booke diuulged in Carolus his name that the said booke was then written by some secret enemy of Images a point so euident that Caluin intimateth the vncertainty of the Authour of that Booke thus saying Eâ—tat refutatorius liber sub Caroli Magni nomine c. There is extant a booke of refutation vnder the name of Carolus Magnus which we may easily gather to be made about that tyme so doubtfully and irresolutly Calum writeth of the authour of that Booke Touching the supposed booke of Beriram written de Corpore Sanguine Domine and dedicated to Charle the Bawld as said to impugne the doctrine of the Reall Presence in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist Which booke some thinke to haue bene forged by Oeculampadius in the name of Bertram I say M. D. first this booke writeth so doubtfully and intricatly of the Reall Presence vsing the words figure spirituall and Mystery with such qualifications as that no strong Argument against the Reall Presence can be drawne from thence yea which is more this booke so much fauoreth the Reall Presence as that the Centurists do thus censure of it Transubstantiationis semina habet Bertramus The booke of Bertram hath in it the seedes of Transubstantiation Secondly the Catholicke wryters of those tymes as Hospinian relateth at large did honour Bertram as a holy Martyr of the Catholicke Church How then is it probable that Bertram should wryte a booke against one of the cheifest Articles defended beleiued by the said Church Thus far of Bertram Touching Vlricke who was Bishop of Augusta who is vrged for a Protestant in that it is supposed he should wryte an Epistle to Pope Nicolas in behalfe of Priests Mariage and printed lately at Basill We reply that by force of all Reason this Epistle is but forged by some enemy of the Roman Church in his name and was written diuers yeares after Pope Nicolas was dead or before that Vlrick was borne For as Onuphrius writeth Pope Nicolas the first to whom it is supposed Vlrick should write was elected Pope anno 858. enioying the same nyne yeares and two months dyed anno 867. Whereas Vlrick was not made Bishop of Augusta till anno 924. Which was after the death of Pope Nicolas And he contemning Bishop fifty yeares dyed anno 973. Of which point we may reade Vspergensis Cytraeus Pantaleon D. REYNOLDS But what say you Michaeas touching Burengarius I hope it cannot be denyed but that he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation MICHAEAS I come to Burengarius who liued anno 1051. and was Archdeacon of Angiers who is challenged for a Protestant for his deniall of Transubstantiation in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist I answere first It is true that for a time he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation yet afterwards he recanted his Heresy therein and dyed most Catholicke in that Article Secondly I answere that this Heretick-Catholicke Berengarius did hould diuers errours euen in the iudgment of Oecolampadius the Protestant who thus writeth of him Berengarius non nulla affirmat aduersus Baptismum parnulorum coniugium Berengarius affirmeth diuers things against the Baptisme of Infants and Marriage And againe Damnata est Berengarij Opinio Sacerdotio Christiano parum minus tribuens The Opinion of Berengarius is condemned which ascribed ouer little to Christian Priesthood Also Papir Masson in his Annals of France writeth that Berengarius and his followers denyed the grace of Baptisme denyed that men committing mortall sinne could euer obtaine Pardon and further that Berengarius was an enemy to Mariage Thus much of Berengarius his owne and his followers Heresyes though himselfe before his death according to the iudgment of certaine Catholicke Writers recanted his Heresyes But M. D. and you Gentlemen I will conclude this passage with recurring to one obseruation aboue set downe suppose therefore for the tyme that these former bookes were doubtfull but truly penned by the Authours vnder whose name they go suppose also that Berengarius had neuer recanted his heresy in denying of Transubstantiation suppose finally that you may alledge diuers other sectaryes houlding this or that point of Protestancy yet what can all this conuince It can neuer proue any Visibility of the Protestant Church seeing all these thus admitted are but the Examples of one or other priuate Man who was originally Catholicke and after embraced some one or two points of Protestancy still remayning in all other articles wholy Catholicke And therefore I much commend the Ingenuity of D. Fulke herein who foreseing the impertinency of these Examples of Bertram Berergarius and those others reiecteth them in these
sinnes of Saule the Publican MICHAEAS M. Doctour you do well and like a Christian Doctour to endeauour to reâ—all home these two wretches Yet touching the paucity of Protestanticall Apostates by you pretended it seemâ—s your Memory wrongs your Reading For it is a vast vntruth to affirme that only Ochinus and Neuserus haue reuolted to Turcisme and Iudaâ—sme For did not Dauid George a cheife Protestant and once Professour at Basil become a blasphemous Apostata who affirming our Sauiour to be a seducer and grounding himselfe with Ochinus Nâ—userâ—s vpon the not accoÌ„plishment of the Prophesyes of the Churches visibility in the Protestant Church thus writeth Si Christi Apâ—stolorâ—an doctrina vera perfecta fuisset c. If the doctrine of Chrâ—st and his Apostles had bene true aâ—d perfect the Church which they had planted should haue contâ—nued c. But now it is manifest that Antichrisi hath subuerted the doctrine of the Apostles and the Church by them begunne c. therefore the doctrine of the Apostles was false and imperfect Thus that impâ—ous Iew And was not Alamannus a Swinglian and once most familiar with Beza who perswading himselfe that the prophecyes touching the continuall visâ—bility of the Church were not performed in Christ his Chuâ—ch because he saw they were not performed in the Protestant Church did thereupon renounce Christianity and became a blasphemious Iew a point so euident that Beza himselfe notwithstanding their former inwardnes and friendship thus writeth of him Alamanum affirmant ad â—udaâ—smum dâ—fecisse Did not Georgius Paulus minister of Cracouia deny the Trinity with the Turkes In like sort Conefius and Laelius Socinus a schollar in the schoole of Geneua who writ whole books against the B. Triâ—ity vpon the former grounds forsooke the Christian fayth And this Socinus as Beza witnesâ—eth so at the first corrupted the first chapter of S. â—ohn his Ghospell which speaketh so plainâ—ly of Christ as that Beza saith of him mihâ— quidem videtur omnes corrupâ—ores longè superasse In like sort Andreas Vâ—lanus a great Caluinisâ— not only became in the end a Turke but infected many others with his wrytings agaynst the Bleâ—sâ—ed Trinity and Christian fayth But if you haue a desire to râ—ede of more Protestants who became Turkes and Iewes as presuming that the former Prophecyes were not performed in the Church of God I referre you to a booke to which I thinke you are no stranger I meane to that most elaborate and mother-booke for it hath giuen byrth to diuers others written by your owne brother M. William Reynolds and called Caluino Turcismus You may also to the same end peruseÌ„ Conradus Slussenberg and Osiander both Protestants where I presume your stomacke wil be soone gluted with the displeasing gust of diuers others there related And now in the through of these examples my thoughts are caried to Sebastian Castalio once Professour at Basill And one highly extolled by your owne D. Humfrey and others This Castalio though he went not so fare as by open breach and Apostasy to leaue the fayth of Christ yet in regard that the former predictions touching the spreading of Christs Church and the euer vneclipsed conspituity of it were not in his iudgment performed in Christ Church he writeth very perplexedly hereof to King Edward the sixt in this Maner Equidem aut hâ—c futura f 〈…〉 endum est c. Truly it is to be confessed that these predictions are either to be performed hereafter or haue bene allredy or that otherwyse God is to be accused of lyinge Yf it be said they haue bene allready accomplished I aske of hym When Yf he answeare in the Apostles dayes I demand then how it happeneth that neithâ—r then the knowledg of God was wholy perfect and why it so soone vanished away which was promised to be eternall and more abundant then the floudds of the Sea And then without saluing this his difficulty he finally thus dowbtfully concludeth Quo magis libros sacros considero eo minus hactenus praestitum video vtcumque oracula illa intelligas The more â—peruse the Scriptures the lesse do I find the same performed howsoeuer you vnderstand the said Prophecies See with what a fearefull and wauering trepitation of iudgment this learned Caluinist writeth of this point through his false supposall that the Catholycke Church is not the Church of God but cheiffly through his true acknowledgment that the former Prophecies were not performed in the Protestant Church And thus far of these Examples But if you will haue a censure whether any Protestants or rather Caluinists turne Arians or no who as denying the most Blessed Trinity are litle bettar then Turks or Iewes I will giue it in this Neuserus his owne words and if I wrong hym herein let hym now before you charge me who thus hath left written None is knowne in our tyme to be made an Arian who was not a Caluinist as Seruetus Blandrata Paulus Alchianus Gentilis Gebraldus Siluanus and others therefore who feareth to faule into Arianisme let hym take heede of Caluinisme Thus you Neuserus so certaine it is that Arianisme Turcisme and Iudaisme are the last sublimations of Caluinisme Well M. Doctour I am cloyed with the society of this discours and can hardly endure any longer with patience the sight of these two Wretches belcking forth such horrible poyson And therefore I will now leaue you and perhapps instaÌ„tly after vpon some vrgent occasions leaue England I could haue wished that this our Dispute had made a deeper impression in you then I feare it hath for your incorporating into the Catholicke Church Neuer the lesse I will pray to God that before your dissolution you may be more solicitous and carefull in this so great a matter which concerns your Soules happines or infelicity for all eternity Touching my selfe I do ingeniously protest that now by meanes of this discours I seeing the weaknes of all that which may be vrged by the learnedest Protestants in defence of this Churches visibility am become hereby more setled and strenghtned in the Catholicke fayth and Religion then afore I was if more I can be But now before I end I cannot but put you in mind M. Doctour how fouly you were ouertaken in your defence of this impious Ochinus for his writing against the sacrifice of the Masse where you may well see that to deny the sacrifice which was first instituted by our Sauiour is a fitting preparation towards the after denyall of our Sauiour himselfe D. REYNOLDS I must confesse Michaeas that notwithstanding whatsoehath bene sayd in this discourse I still remayne a member of the Protestant Church assuring my selfe it is the true Church of Christ Touching my defence of Ochinus his wryting I did it out of my conscience and my conscience I trust will warrant it at the last day For your present departure I am agreiued
passage touching Waldo and the Waldenses and their followers After this Authour hath finished his speech of the Waldenses he further thus proceedeth The Authour of the sixtenth Century nameth about the yere 1500. Baptista Mantuanus and Franciscus Picus Earle of Mirandula both which inueighed against the Cleargy and their whole practize Also one D. Keisers pergius an other called Iohn Hilton a third named Doctour Andreas Proles and Sauanorola all grawning vnder the burden of those tymes Againe the Pamphleter thus saith Aud the same is written of Trimetheus an other learned Man who liued at that tyme. Thus this our Authour Now how exorbitantly and wildly are these vrged for Protestants For First they are auerred to be such only by Protestant Wryters to wit Oâ—â—ander and Pantaleon who heerein may well be presumed for the vphoulding of their owne Protestant Church to be partial in their Relations Secondly this Treatizer doth not instance any poynts of Protestancy beleiued by any of them which if he could no doubt he would not haue omitted but only vrgeth their wrytings against some pretended abuses of the Church of Rome in those dayes And therfore such his proceeding is but calumnye and impertinency Lastly touching Sauanorola and Picus of Mirandula for as for the others they are so obscure that hardly any particular information can be had of them It is certaine that they were both Roman Catholicks and dyed in that Religion For as concerning Sauanorola he beleiued all the Articles of the Roman fayth as euidently appeareth out of his owne writings styled Vigiliae excepting the doctrine of the Popes power to excommunicate This one point he contumaciously denyed and for this he was burnt Touching Picus of Mirandula Syr Thomas More of blessed memory wryting his life showeth that he was so fully a Roman Catholicke that in his life tyme he sould a great part of his lands to giue to the poore that he often vsed to scourge discipline his owne flesh that if he had liued longer he intended to haue entred into the Religious Order of the Dominican Pryars That in tyme of his sicknes he receaued according to the Catholicke custome the most blessed and reuerend Sacrament of Christs body and bloud for his Viaticum Finally that hearing the Priest in his sicknes to repeate vnto him the articles of the Roman fayth and being demanded whether he beleiued them Answered He did not only beleiue them but did know them also to be true So fowly we see this Pamphleter is ouerseene in alledging Sauanorola and Picus of Mirandula for Protestants But to proceede further This idle waster of penne inke paper for I can tearme him no better next descendeth in a retrograte and disorderly method to Laurentius Valla the Gramaâ—iaÌ„ who touching the Articles of the Roman Catholicke fayth only denyed freewill as appeareth euen froÌ„ the ProtestaÌ„t Writers And who after g submitted himselfe to the Pope and finally dyed in all poynts Catholicke all which this Authour affectedly concealeth He saith of Valla in this sort Valla wrote a Treatise of purpose against the forged donation of Constantine He pronounceth of his owne experience that the Pope maketh war against peaceable People and soweth discord betweene Cittyes and prouinces c. With much more refuse of base matter concerning the supposed coueteousnes of the Pope yet notwithstanding all this he nameth not any one Article of Protestancy defended by Valla. But the Pamphleter thus further proceedeth to others saying About the same tyme liued Nicolaus Clemingius who rebuked many things in the Ecclesiasticall State and spake excellently in the matter of Generall Councells c. Petrus de Aliaco Cardinal of Cambray gaue atract to the Councell of Constance touching reformation of the Church There he doth reproue many notable abuses against the Romanists c. About the same tyme liued Leonardus Aretinus whose litle Booke against Hypocrates is worth the reading So is the Oration of Antontus Cornelius Linnicanus laying open the lend lubricity of Priests in his dayes So doth he detect many abuses and errours who wrote the ten agreiuances of Germany But those who compiled the hundred agreuances of the German Nation do discouer many more And then the Pamphleter most ambitiously or rather ridiculously thus concludeth By this tyme I trust it is manifest how false a slaunder of the Papistsis that before the dayes of Martin Luther there was neuer any of our Religion Egregiam verè laudem spolia ampla refectis Tu calamusque tâ—â—s For who obserueth not how absurdly you Pamphleter do apologize For the Visibility of your Church Thus good Reader thou seest that this Authour instanceth in Valla and others aboue mencioned for Protestants and yet setteth not downe any one Article of Protestancy beleiued by them for not any of them denyed the Reall presence Purgatory prayer to saincts the Seauen Sacraments Iustification by Works the Popes Supremacy c. All that this Authour can produce theÌ„ for is because they did wryte Satyrically and bitterly against the abuses of the Church in those dayes But to this we replye That it is granted on all sydes that both in the Catholicke and the Protestant Church there haue bene and still are diuers of irregular and disedifying lyues Must now those who in their wrytings or Sermons reprehend such be necessarily supposed to be of a different fayth from those whom they so reprehend Who seeth not the weaknes of this inconsequent and absurd kynd of reasoning From the former Iustances the Pamphleter ascendeth to Iohn l Wiclef prostituring him for a Protestant And heere also he spendeth many leaues in wandring excursions of speeches and indeede to no other end but as I intimated a fore to dawbe inke vpon paper For he pretendeth to show the Aussits had receaued their doctrine out of the Books of Wiclef how the Councell of Constance condemned Wiclef for an Heretiycke as also how the doctryne of Wiclef was much dilated heare in England But to manifest how impertinent the alledging of Wiclef for a Protestant is I refer the Reader to the Dialogue where are showed out of Wiclefs one Wrytings the many Catholicke articles of the Roman Religion to wit the doctrine of the seauen Sacraments Rites and Ceremonies of the Masse praying to our Blessed Lady worship of Images merit of Works and works of Supererogation c. still beleiued by him euen after his leaping out of our Church As also there are showed the many condemned Heresies in like sort mantayned by him after his departure from the Roman Church and this from the penns of the Protestants But here before I end with Wiclefe I must put the Reader in mind of one notorious Collusion or deceate much practized by this Pamphleter touching diuers of the former men alledged for Protestants but most particularly touching Wiclefe It is this He here particularizeth no Protestant articles but only the denying of Transubstantiation yet where
impudent assertion And first touching Dante 's He thus wryteth of S. Peter in his Italian verses O luce eternâ— del gran viro A cui nostro Signor lascio le chiaui Ch' ei portò giùda questo gaudio mirâ— In lyke sort touching Rome it selfe he thus discourseth Non pare indeg no al huomo d'intelletto Che ei su de l'alma Roma de suo impero Nel ' empirco ciel ' per padre eletto La quale el quale à voler direilvero Fur stabilite per lo loco sancto r ' fiede il successor del maggior Piero. In which verses Rome is called a reuerend Citty a holy place fortified and strenghtned euen from Heauen and finally the seate of Peter Againe Dante 's was much aduers against Pope Nicolas the third whom being dead Dante 's notwithstanding thus honored with his Verse Et se non fusse ch' aucor le me vieta I ariuerentia delle summe chiani Cheiutenesti vella vita lieta Iover ei parcle ancor più graut In which words Dante 's confesseth plainly that the reuerence which he did beare to this Pope in regard that he receaued the keyes of the Church meaning supreme authority in Christs Church was the cause why he did forbeare to wryte more sharply against hym Finally to omit many other lyke passages Dante 's saith that Boniface the eight Ne summo offitio ne Ordini sacri Guardò in se In which verse he acknowledeth that supreme authority and holy Orders did resyde in Boniface whose manners were otherwise displesing to Dante 's In this next place I will come to Petrarch who thus wryteth in acknowledging the power of the Bishop of Rome Quis quaeso non stupeat simulque non gaudeat si amicus sit Vicario IESV CHRISTI And further Romano Pontifici omnes qui Christiano nomine glortamur non modo consilium sed obsâ—quium insuper obedientiam debemus All we who glory in the name of Christians do owe not only counsell but duty and obedience to the Bishop of Rome Now for greater euidency of this poynt I will descend to the particular prayses geuen by Petrarch to particular Popes in his Italian booke written of the liues of Popes We there then find that of Pope Vrbanus 5. he thus writeth Fu nelle sacre Scripture dottissimo santamente visse Vrbanus was most learned in the holy Scriptures and liuod most Sanctly Of Clemens 6. he thus recordeth Fu per nome per fatti di molte virtù pieno Clement was both for his name and for his deeds replenished with much vertue Of Benedict 12. these are his words Beneditto fatto Papa reformò l'Ordine di S. Benedetto c. era feruido nella fide nelle buone operezelatore Benedict being created Pope did reforme the Order of S. Benedict c. He was feruerous in the fayth and zelous in good works c. To be short of Iohn 22. he thus saith Costuifu ottimo glorioso Pastore fece molti bein Hereticiper zelo della fide condamno This man was a very good and glorious Pastour He did many good deeds and condemned Hereticks out of his zeale to the fayth And now I refâ—r to any in different iudgment whether these two Italian Poëtes Dante 's and Petrarch did thinke the Pope of Rome to be Antichrist or no as our Pamphleter semeth to vrge â—hey did and whether the former prayses can be truly applyed to Anthichrist the whoare of Babilon â—o euident it is that what the foresaide PoeÌ„ts did Saâ—yrically wryce was written only against some disorders in the Church of Rome and against the presumed faults of some particular Popes but neuer against their supreme dignity in the Church of Christ And as touching the former Popes by Petrarch so commended We are to remember that his prayses deliuered of them where written after the deaths of the said Popes and therefore his words could not be censured to proceede from adulation and flattery but according to his owne true and secret iudgment passed vpon those Popes In the same manner for their lyke inueâ—ghing against the fulnes of the Popes power and iurisdiction he alledgeth certaine obscure men to wit Dulemus Hayabalus Ioannes Biraensis Ioannes de Rupe scissa three religious Men who liued and dyed in respect of all other poynts in the Roman Church And yet touching Ioannes de Rupe scissa both this Authour and the authour of Catalogus testium veritatis From whom this man taketh it are deceaued if we may beleiue Fox who thus wrytes of hym Ioannes de Rupe scissa liued in the yere 1340. who for his rebuking of the spiritually for their great enormittes and neclecting their office was cast into prison Our Pamphleter after produceth Gerson for a Protestant of whom he thus saith Gerson saw in his ages many horrible abuses of the Church of Rome and in his wrytings spake liberally of it Is not this a learned prouf for Gersons being Protestant in all poynts of Protestancy After all the former â—nstances the Pamphleter euen for want of other matter returneth back againe to the Waldenses or Albigenses iterating with a tedious prolixity his former discouâ—s concerning them and this in many leaues Whereby he sheweth the extreme mendicity of his Cause and that he laboreth with all Art possible to draw out this his Treatise as is aboue said into some reasonable number of sheets But touching the Waldenses I refer the Readeâ— as afore I willed to the pâ—rticular passage of Waldo in the former Dialogue His former Extrauagancyes of discours being ended he is not ashamed to challenge S. Bernard for a Protestant of whom he thus wryteth Before our ascending thus high we might tell you of S. Bernard whom all though it is lykely at the first dash you will challenge as your owne yet when you haue well aduized of hym you may let hym go againe O perfrictam frontâ—m and wonderfull Impudency For who is so ignorant or so bould that wil not confesse S. Bernard to haue bene a Roman Catholicke in all points He was a religious Man and Abbot of Claireuaux and Authour of many Monasteryes in Flanders and France as O siander the Protestant confesseth he also was Pryest and said Masse to his dying day as all Writers of him do testify A poynt so euident that for his being a great and eminent member of our Catholicke Church the Centurists al Protestants thus censure him Bernardâ—â—s coluit Deum Maozim ad nouissimum vitae suae articulum And further they say of him Bernardus fuit acerrimus propugnator sedis Antichristi Bernard was an earnest defendour of the seaâ—e of Antichrist Here now I refer to the candid and vpright Reader what impudency it was in this Man to challenge Bernard for a member of the Protestant Church But heere touching S. Bernard I cannot but abserue
this Authours fraud and imposturous cariadge who tearmeth all such Articles wherein S. Bernard did agree with vs as the Sacrifice of the Masse Purgatory merit of Works free will praying to saincts and indeed all other Catholicke Articles whatsoeuer only his boldnes of wryting to Pope Eugenius excepted to whom afore he had bene Mayster and therevpon presumed to wryte more freely Slips Lapses as they were beleiued by him which in vs Catholicks he exagerateth by the name of Superstition Idolatry c. And thus we may see how one and the same Cause being exemplified in different Persons is by this Pamphleters deceate diuersly censured Leaning S. Bernard the Authour generally but with out any prouf at all wisheth his Reader to thinke that the Protestant Church was in all Countries in Christendome and did lie hid as those Iewes did in the tyme of Elias for feare of Persecution But this he only saith but proueth not and it is therefore reiected with the same facilitie with which it was spoken Now touching those Men who conceales their fayth for feare of persecution I refer the Reader to the former dialogue wherein the weaknes of this pretext of Persecution is particularly displayed That done the Pamphleter sayth that India Armenia Asia the lâ—ssar and Egypt had in former tymes Christians in them for he giueth them no other name then Christians And then he inferrs without any proofe at all or instances in the points of their Religion that they were Protestants Poore man that thus most insensibly reasoneth Seing we find the Christians of all those Countreyes to agree in all the cheife points with the present Roman Churrch Only some of them do not acknowledge the primacy of the Bishop of Rome aboue all other Bishopps In the last place of all he much insisteth in the Greeke Church within which are included the Russes and Muscouits he thus saying thereof The Greeke Church was neuer so much as in show extinguished And from whome the Russians and Muscouâ—ts had their fayth And then a little after he thus enlargeth himselfe We should do wrong to Almighty God c. to pull from him so many ample Churches meaning the Greeke Church the others aboue specifyed inferring from thence that the Protestant Church did in former ages rest visible euen in the Greeke Church Now this his shamelesse alleadging of the Greeke Church for Protestants shal be confronted with the testimony of Syr Edwin Sands a man of his owne Religion who plainly affirmeth that the Greeke Church doth concurre with Rome in opinion of Transubstantiation generally in the sacrifice and whole Body of the Masse in praying to Saints in auâ—â—cular Confession in offering Sacrifice and prayer for the dead Purgatory worshipping of pictures Yea the Protestant Deuines of Magdeburg do record that the Greeke Church doth not only beleiue all the former Articles recited by Syr Edwin Sands but also that it beleiueth and teacheth the signifying Ceremonyes of the Masse Confirmation with Crisme Extreme Vâ—ction all the seauen Sacraments Almes for the dead freewill Monachisme vowes of Chastity the fast of Lent and other prescribed fasts that Priests may not mary after Orders taken and finally that the tradition doctrine of the Fathers is to be kept Now heere I refeâ—re to any one not blinded with preiudice whether the professours of the Greeke Church are to be accounted for Catholicks or Protestants And from hence we may discâ—uer the idle and ridiculous vaunting of this Pamphleter who in the close of this point touching the Greeke Churches being protestant and a continuall Visâ—â—iliâ—y of Protestancy in the said Churches thus insulteth Looke to these places you Papists and Imagine that if there had beene none but these yet the words of the Scripture which in generality speake of a spouse had beene true And Christ had there had his Body vpon earth and the Church had not beene vtterly extinguished if neither We nor the Synagoâ—ue of Rome had beene extant Thus he His former examples being ended he entertayneth his Reader with great store of frothy and needlesse matter touching former differences betweene the Popes and Emperours the Kings of England and France And then all such persons as did bandy themselues either by wryting or otherwise with the said Emperour or Kings agaynst the Popes of those tymes the Pamphleter vrgeth for Protestants though the cheife cause of such differences betweene the Popes and the sayd Princes was touching Distribution of Ecclesiasticall Liuings within their owne Realmes That done the Treatiser extraâ—agantly discourseth in his deâ—lamatory rayling veyne that the Pope is Antichrist But how rouing and wandring all this is to the title of his Pamphlet and prouing of his owne Churches visibility the which he obliged himselfe to performe may appeare by what is already set downe After all this for a Close of all he obiecteth for forme-sake as if his taking notize of what we can truly obiect against his wryting were a sufficient answere to it certaine exceptions vrged by the Catholicks agaynst his former Instances of protestancy Which Obiections of ours being set downe he shapeth no true Answere vnto them And first he thus obiecteth in our behalfe l The Papists will beginne and say that we rake together as the Auncestours and forerunners of our fayth such as were notorious Hereticks as Wicklefe Hus or the Waldenses c. To which after much securtility of words he finally thus answereth We do not beleiue that all those are Hereticks whom you Papists will so call or account But we reply hereto and say That not only the Catholicks but the Protestants themselues do particularly charge Wicklefe Hus the Waldenses as also Almaricus Peter Bruus c. with many grosse and absurd Heresyes acknowledged for such euen by our Aduersaryes as may abundantly appeare by recurring to the seuerall passages of this former Dialogue The defence of which heresyes doth necessarily make their defendours absolute Heroticks seing they were mantayned by Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. with a froward and open contempt of the authority of Gods Church publikly teaching the contrary far differently from S. Austin S. Cyprtan and Lactantius their beleiuing certayne errours the which this Pamphleter for the more lesning of the Heresyes of Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. in p. 112. suttely repeateth seing these Fathers taught them only as their owne probable opinions euer submitting with all Obedience their Iudgments therein to the supreme Iudgments of Christ his Church Ad hereto that seing those Books written by Catholicks of those tymes do indifferently charge Wicklefe Hus Waldo and their followers with mantayning of some one point or other of protestancy and with diuers absurd Heresyes The authority therefore of those Writers are eyther equally to be beleiued in all their accusations or equally to be reiected in them all And the rather seing they could not foretell a consideration much to be obserued or presage what
power of Magistrats doth arme the subiects against their France in these cases c. And further Beza m roundly teacheth what reason haue Christians to obey hym that is Satans slâ—ue And yet speaking more of that Booke of Beza he saith a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all authority of Christian Magistrats To contract this poynt touchinge Beza Beza hymselfe thus wryteth in one of his Epistles to a friend of his Pâ—rplaceâ— mihi c. It pleaseth me very much that you wryte that priuate Conuents and assemblyes are to be made without the authority of Princes And againe in the said epistle Si pijs semper expectandum putas dum lupi vltro cedant c. Yf you thinke we must stay the delayes of godly men till the woulâ—es do freely depart or are driuen away by publyke authority I cannot yeald to your iudgment therein c. And if we had made such delayes What Churches should wee haue had at this day Thus far of the doctrines of Caluin and Beza in this poynt concerning both which in generall I will set downe the iudgment of therfore named D. Bancroft passed vpon them both who thus wryteth He that shall reede M. Caluins and M. Bezaes two bookes of Epistles c. Would certainly meruayle to vnderstand into what actions and dealings they put themselfs of war of peace of subiection of reformation without staying for the Magistrate Thus he Next we will come to kâ—ox who thus teacheth Reformation of Religion belorgeth to the Communalty God hath appoynted the Nobility to bridle the inordinate appetits of Princes Princes for iust cause may be deposed Finally Knox further auoucheth in these words Yf Princes be tyraâ—ts against God and his Truth their Subiects are freed from the oath of obedyence Of all which passages of Knoâ—see D. Bancroft in his booke of dangerous Positions Neither his Collegue Bucanan is lese sparing herein for thus he teacheth The People haue right to bestow the Crowne at their pleasure And yet with â—at more debasing spyte he thus egurgiâ—ates his veâ—ome It were good that rewards were appointed by the People for such 〈◊〉 should kill Tyrants as commonly there is for those which haue killed vulues Finally Bucanan affirmeth that People may arraigne their Prince Now in regard of these impious positions of Knox and Bucanan I fully approue and allow the graue sentence of the Bishop of Rochester who in his Sermon at Pooles Church termeth these two men The two fiery spirits of the Church and Nation of Scotland VICE-CHANCELOVR Michaeas Notwithstanding what you heere haue alleged touching strangers yet no part thereof conceâ—neth the Church of England or it Members Our Church remayning most incontaminate fâ—ee and spotles from the lâ—ast tuch of disloyalty And therefore what is by you as yet hearesaid concerneth vs litle you only discouering your Ignorance in misapplying other mens doctrines to vs who wholy disclayme from the same MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour Pardon me if I heere do say you charge my Ignorance with greater Ignorance For first are not your Protestants of England of the same fayth and Religion with Luther Swâ—nglius Caluin Beza and the others aboue mentioned If you be not then haue you erected a new Protestant Church of late different from all Protestant Churches afore in Being If you be of the same fayth must you not then confesse that your Religion teacheth disobedience and disloyalty to your Prince Secondly it is ouer manifest that the Church of England I speake of some members thereof only not of all doth stand most chargeable with the same crime In proofe of which point I will produce the testimony of your former Archbishop of Canterbury D. Bancroft who in one of his Books thus confesseth of English Ministers concerning this point saying I omit their desperate courses of deposing Princes and putting them to death in diuers cases of resistance against reformation The generall summe was this That if the soueraigne Magistrate refuse to admit it the Ministers the inferiour Magistrate the People c. might set it oâ— fooâ—e themselues Of these and such like arguments diuers bookes he meaning made by English protestants were allowed by the Ministers of Geneua to be there then printed in English and to be published in England c. And againe the said Archbishop in an other of his Books speaking of the seditious English Protestants in Queene Maryes tyme thus writeth Goodman Whitingam Gilby the authour of the booke of Obedience with the rest of the Geneua Complices in Queene Maryes dayes urged all states by degrees rather to take armes and to reforme Religion themselues then to suffer such Idolatry Superstition remayne in the Land But to descend more particularly to this Goodman He was a forward Protestanâ— in Queene Maryes tyme did write a booke of this very subiect as D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe affirme Thus hereof he wryteth as D. Bancroft alleadgeth his sentences If Magistrats transgresse Gods Lawes and commanâ— others to do the like then haue they loâ—â— honour and obedience and ought no more to be taken for Magistrats but to be examined accused condemned c. And more It is not sufficient for subiects not to obâ—y the wicked Commandements of their wicked Princes but to withstand them also And yet more plainly Euill Princes ought by the lawes of God to be deposed To abbreuate this vnpleasing subiect there was also in the said times an other Booke made against the authority of Princes and entituled Of Obedience Which booke is much disliked by D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe in which booke we thus read Kings haue their authority from the People and by occasion the People may take it away agayne And more By the word of God in a manifest defection meaning of fayth and Religion a priuate Man hauing some speciall inward motion may kill a tyrant Marke you not how he doth Rauiliac it And finally It is lawfull to kill wicked Kings and Tyrants But I will wade no further in this argument For I much feare that the afore vnheard and now vnexpected recitall of the former Protestants doctrines is most displeasing to the eares of this honorable Iudge Only I must note that among the aboue mentioned Protestants some do speake with more respect and honour of Princes others with aâ—â— contempt and disgrace yet all of them alledged do with one the same eye or countenance indifferently looke vpon this principle to wit That Princes in some cases may be deposed such a dispacity we find in this their generally acknowledged Conclusion So in the pourtrayture of diuers mens faces we obserue great disproportion in one and the same proportion LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE Michaeas I must confesse that these Doctrines of the former learned Protestants touching the deposing of Princes are most strange and indeede distastfull vnto me But it well may be that
by our Aduersaries doctrine as a part of the same Note But how can it be known whether the Word though truly preached be truly heard and beleiued with a final perseuerance So far distant is this pretended Note from being for our direction a true Note of the Church An other Argument for the impugning of the Protestants former Notes may be this The Scripture it selfe cannot be made knowne to vs to be Scripture but by the attestation of the Church for as for that sentence which teacheth that the Maiesty and voyce of God which appeareth in the Scripture or the Priuate Spirit iudging of it assâ—eth vs which is true Scripture it is an exploded Errour Seing one Man is persuaded he fyndeth in those books which himselfe admitteth for scripture that Maiesty and voyce of God the which very books for want of the said supposed voyce or Maiesty an other Man vtterly reiecteth as Apocryphil And in lyke sort the priuat Spirit of this Man embraceth such books as Canonical the which bookes the Priuat Spirit of an other absolutely discanoneth Now this being granted it from hence ineuitably resulteth that first we must know which is the true Church to giue this approbation of the Scripture before we can know which is the Scripture and much more then before we can be assured which is the true preaching of the word and sincere construction or Sense of the Scripture Now that our knowing which is Scripture proceedeth from the authoritie of the Church I first proue not only from S. Austin who saith n Actibus Apostolorum necesse est me credere si câ—edo Euangelio quoniam vtramque Scripturam similiter mihi Catholiea commendat Ecclesia But also from the acknowledgement of our learned Aduersaries whose words in their wrytings to this purpose are most plentifull I will content myselfe referring the Reader to the references of others at this tyme with Peeter Martyr and M. Hooker Peter Martyr thus wryteth We acknow ledge it to be the function of the Church seing it is endued with the Holy Ghost that it should discerne the true and proper books of Scripture M. Hooker more fully 〈…〉 th heare of saying Of thing necessary the very cheifest is to know what bookes we are to 〈◊〉 â—â—ly Which poynt is confessed impossible for the Scripture it selfe to teach c. For of any Booke of Scripture did geus testimony to â—ll et stiâ— that Scripture which geneth credit to the rest world require â—n other Scripture to gâ—ue credit vnto it Neither could we come to any paâ—se whe reon to rest vnles besids Scripture theare were something which might assurs vs. Which thiâ—g M. Hockeâ—man other place articulatly â—earmeth The authority of Gods Church thus saying We all know the 〈◊〉 outward Motyue leading Men to esteeme of the Scripture is the authority of the Church Now if by these learned Mens conâ—ession the Church hath authority to propownd to vs which bookes presented for Scripture are true Scriptures and which are Apocryâ— hall and spurious then followeth it that the Church hath in lyke sort authority to propownd to vs which is the true and pure sense of the Scripture since the one is as necessarye to vs as the other for it aduantageth vs litle to know which are the vndoubted bookes of Scripture if so we know not which is the true sense of the Scripture Now out of the Premisses I demonstratiuely conclude that seing by the authority of the Church and not otherwise we are tought which â—ookes of Scripture are Canonicall and consequently which is the true sense of the said Scripture that therefore the Church being fâ—ster in odeâ— of knowledg to vs then either the Scripture or the true preaching of the word of Scripture the true preaching of the word is not nor can be apprehended to be a Note to vs to find thearby which is the true Church Since then it would follow an absurdity incompatible with all true discours of Reason that a thing which to vs is later knowne should be a Note to vs of that which by vs is first knowne An other argument may be drawne from the Nature of euery true Note which ought to be so peculiar to that of which it is a Note as that it cannot be applyed in the iudgment of others to it meare Contrary But we see different sectaryes teaching contrary doctrynes and professing themselfs to be members of different Churches do all neuertheles promiscuously challenge the true preaching of the Words and the vse of the Sacrements to be the Notes of their so much discording Churches or Conuenticles And therefore the afore named Lubbertus thus truly pronounceth of this poynt Praedicatio Sacramentorum communicatio similia Ecclesiae essentiam non attingunt sunt enim Haereticorum conuerticulis veris Christianorum Ecclesiâ—s communia The preaching of the word the distribution of the Sacraments and such like do not belong to the essence of the Church since these things are common both to the Conuenticles of Hereticks and to the true Churches of Christians And according hearto we find by experience that Lutherans Protestants and PuritaÌ„s theaching most repugnante doctrines do wartant these their doctrines by the former Notes of preaching the Word And therefore it from hence followeth that it is no lesse a madnes in our aduersaries to prescrybe the preaching of the word and the vse of the Sacraments for the notes of the Church which are common to all Hereticall Conuenticles at least in their owne Opinion then for one who would discouer and note out one particular Man from all others to distinguish him from them by saying It is he who hath two eyes one nose one mouth two armes c. Since these Notes or description are common to all men in generall Againe I thus dispute A true Note of any thing ought to be at all tymes without discontinuance a Note theareof and not sometymes only since otherwise it is but a temporary Note But theare hath bene a Church of God euen then when there was no Scripture at all much lesse any preaching or interpretation of the Word Therefore the preaching of the word cannot be erected as a true Note of the Church The Assumption of this argument is manifest For it is acknowledged that the Church of God continued two thousand yeres before Moyses his tyme without any Scripture and therefore D. Parkins truly thus saith Morses was the first pennman of Holy Scripture With whom agree Zanchius D. Whitakers and all other learned Men whosoeuer Againe after Moyses had pened the Scripture it remayned only in the custody of the Iewes and was among them for many yeres lost as it is granted euen by the marginall annotations of the English Bibles of the yere 1576. where it is said That it was either by the negligence of the Priests lost or by the wickednes of idolatreus Kings And yet euen in those tymes Iob and
Apoc. 17 f That Ochinus vpon the not performance of the Prophecyes of the old testament in the Church of Christ denyed the Trinity taught Circumcision and became an absolute Apostata is witnessed by Zanchius the Protestant in his booke de tribus elohim printed 1594. l 5. c. 9. As also by CoÌ„radus Slussenb a Protestant in Theolog. Caluinist lib. 1. fol. 9. The tytle of which chapter in Sluffenberg is respontio ad Ochini blasphemiam And lastly the same is auerred by Beza in Polygam pag. 4. g That Neuserus through the want of the performance of the foresaid Prophecyes denyed our sauiour Christ reputed him a seducer turned Turke and was circuÌ„cized at Constantinople is witnessed by Osiander the Protestant Cent. 16. part 2. pag. 818. in these words Adam Neuserus Pastor Heidelbergensis c. prolapsus est in Turcismum Consiantinopole circumcisus As also by Conradu Slussenberg in Theolog. Caluin lib. 1. art 2. fol. 9. in these words Adam Neuserus olim Heidelbergensis Ecclesia primarius Pastor ex Zwinglianisâ—â— per Arianismum ad Mahometismum progressus est h Ioan. 1. i Ioan. 1. k Esay 6. * Malacâ— cap. 4. l Act. 4. m See hereof the first part of the CoÌ„â—erted â—ew at the beginning n Bale in prefat act Rom poÌ„tific printed 1558. initio * Caluin l. descandalis extant iu tract Theolog printed 1597 pag. 111 vt supra dicitur o 2. Io. an 2. p Osiander cent 16. part 2. pag. 647. saith of Dauid George Vtebatur publico Vir Dei ministerio Basiâ—ienâ—i c. q See historia Dauidis Georgij printed at Antwerp 1568 published be the deuines of Basil r Conradus Slussenberg in Theolog. Caluin l 1. art 2. f. 9. Alemanus Bezae antea famiâ—iarissimâ—s â—irenuê° Caluinista Râ—ligioni Christianae longum valde dixiâ— factus est Apostata Iudaeus blasphemus s Sâ— writeth Beza in epist 65. p. 308. t Stancurus de mediatore fol. 38. u Epist Theol. 81. x In Paâ—aenesi y Lib 1. câ— 19 l 3. c. 3. 8. and in diuers other places thereof z Lib 1. de Theol. Caluin aâ—t 2. c. 9. a Cent. 16. p. 207. 208. 209. b Lib. de ratione interpretaÌ„di 〈◊〉 1 p. 62. 63. And Osiander in Cent. 16. who saith Sebastianus Castaleo vir asprimè doctus c dinguarum peritâ—ssimus c In the Preface of the great Latin Bible dedicated to King Edward the sixt d Oslander in epitom cent 16. p. 209. reporteth that Neuserus being turned Turke and circumcised at CoÌ„staÌ„tinople did write these words to one D. Gerlachius a Protestant Preacher at Tubinga from Constantinople e D. Reynolds in his censura libroruÌ„ Apocryphorum tom alter in the table of Contents set before there at the nuÌ„bers 161. 175. 176. defendeth against Bellarm Ochinus his book writteÌ„ against the Masse f Exod. 3. * Acts. c. 23. g Beza 〈◊〉 de Polygamia printed 1527. p. 4. saith of this point Pelygamiam nemo vnqua 〈…〉 callidius vel impuâ—entiâ—s defendit quam impurus ille Apostata Ochinus iâ— quibusdam D 〈…〉 h Adamus Neuserus Conc 〈…〉 natores inâ—â— Palatinat fiad suam 〈◊〉 dem perd xiâ— con â—tacta cum Sacerdotibus in Tur câ—a amicitia datiâ— atque acceptis vltro citroque literis Mahometanam religionem in Germania propagare 〈◊〉 ter conat 〈…〉 est In Colloquio priuato inter CatholicuÌ„ Pastorem Baduini Ministrum Coloniae Anno. 1591. p. 5â—â— i Beza in epist 1. p. 11. calleth Ochinus Arianorum â—â—aâ—dâ—sâ—â—nus sautor Poligâ—niae 〈◊〉 omniam Christianae religionis dogmatum irrisor k Beza de polygaâ—ia p 4. calleth Ochinus impurus Apostata as aboue is shewed in the margenâ— a Psal 4. b D. Fulke in his answere to a Counterfeyte Catholick p. 27. and in his Reioinder to Bristowes Reply p. 343. c In his coÌ„siderations of the Papists reasons p. 105. d Lib. de votis pag. 476. e In his preface vpon the New Testament dedicated to the Prince of Condy. f In his defence of the Answere to the Admonition p. 472. 473. g Melancthon in 1. Cor c. 3. h Tom. 2. Wittenberg anno 2551. de â—eruo arbitrio pag. â—34 i In his exposition of the Creed p. 307. k Vpon the Reuelations 〈◊〉 43. l M. Napper vbi supra p. 68. m Vbi supra p. 191. n In epist de abrog in vniuersum omnibus statut Ecclesiast o In his answere to a counterfeyte Catholicke p. 35. p Lib. de Votis pag. 477. q Pag. 13. r In his treatise of Antichr l. 2. c. 2. p. â—5 s Histor SacrameÌ„t lib. 1. c. 6. pag. 20. * Michaeas cap. 4. * D. Whitakers saith so l. coÌ„tra Duâ—aeum l. 3. p. 249. a Pag. 3. b Pag. 17. c Pag. 24. d Psalm 12. 1. Samuâ—l 22. Esay 1. 5. 6. Ezech. 22. besides others e Lib. de vnâ—tat Eccleâ— c. 12. f Math. g 1. Timoth 3. * Ierome aduers 〈…〉 ucâ—erean i Lib. coÌ„tra Eunomium k Orationes quinque in theolog l Lib. de Trinitate m Catecheses n Lib. 9. de Trinitate o In c. 1. ad Timot. p Contra Arian haeres 69. s Pag. 100. t Pag. 89. u Pag. 30. x Lib. de Haeres c. 23. 46. z Luther epist ad Bohem. lib de captiuit Babylon 〈…〉 de Euchar. 1 Athan. in Apolog. pro fulga 2 Ierom. lib. contra Pelag. 3 Ierom. lib. contra Vigilant 4 Austin lib. de Haeres c. 46. * Pag. 52. a Epist 244. b In tract de Eccles p. 124. c Pag. 54. d Pag. 56. e Pag. 56. f Illyr catal testium Vetir tom 2. printed 1597. pag. 872. Valla in his Apol. ad Eugenium Papam 4. PoÌ„tif prope finem h Pag. 57. sequentib i Pag. 58. k Pag. 59. 〈◊〉 Pag. 60. m Pag. 69. n Pag. 71. o Pag. 7â— * Pag. 78. l r Pag. 79. 80. * Pag. 81. 1 Cant. 24 del Paâ—ad That is O eternal light of that great man To whom our Lord did leaue the keyes which He did carye with wonderfull ioye 2 Cant. 2. dell Inferno 3 Cant. 19. dell Inferno 4 Cant. 22. del ' Inferno 5 Lib. 1. Seuilium EpistolaruÌ„ ad TalanaÌ„dum Cardinalem 6 Lib. 1. Inuectiuarum contra Medicum 7 Pag. 81. * Vide Fox in act Mon. speaking of this IoaÌ„neâ— de Rupe scissa * Pag. 81. t Pag. 82. u Pag. 91. x EpitoÌ„ Cent. 12. p. 309. y Cent. 12 col 1627. and 1638. a Pag 92. b Pag. 93. c Pag. 95. d Pag. 96. e pag. 96. f In his Relation of thestate of ReligioÌ„ vsed in the Westparts of the World in the last folâ—o but fiue g In their booke entituled Acta Theologorum Wittenbergensoum Ieremiae Patriarchae Constanâ—inâ—p de Augustana CoÌ„fession c. Wittenbergae Anno 1584. i Pag. 97. k Pag. 98. 99. 100. 〈◊〉 Pag. 102. m Pag. 103. n Pag. 110. a Act. 24. The Iewes
of you the second time for all the Protestants do not precisely consent herein how longe do you thinke that the Church of Rome did continue in her Verginall state and Purity without any stayne in her Faith D. WHITAKERS I thinke that during the first six hundred yeares after Christ the Church was pure florishing and inuiolably taught and defended the Fayth deliuered by the Apostles During all which ages the Church of Christ in respect of truth in Faith and Religion was as I may say in the full assent of the wheele And although to speake by resemblance there are found euen many irregularities in the regular motions of the Heauens yet I am fully perswaded that for the space of the first six hundred yeares no annomalous exorbitancies of errours or superstition did accompany the heauenly preaching of the Ghosple in the Church of Christ CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour indeed part of what you here say are your owne words in your booke against D. Sanders and you deale more liberally herein then diuers of your Breehren by affording a hundred and fifty yeares more to the true Church then most of them will allow Now you granting the purity of Faith to continue in the Church of Rome for the space of the first six hundred yeares after Christ do withall implicitly and inferentially grant that no change of Faith was made in that Church within the compasse of the afore mentioned 160. yeares seeing the said 160. yeares are included within the first six hundred yeares as being part of them But to proceed further you are here M. Doctour to call to minde what your selfe at other times no doubt at vnawares haue writen I do finde to instance only in some two or three points that you affirme that Victor who liued anno 160. after Christ was the first that exercised iurisdictō vpon forraine Churches That not Cyprian only who liued anno 240. to vse your owne words but almost all the most holy Fathers of that time were in errour touching the Doctrine of good works as thinking so to pay the paine due to sinne to satisfy Gods iustice Finally that Leo who was Pope anno 440. to speake in your owne dialect was a great Architect of the Antichristian kingdome Are not all these your assertions M. Doctour D. WHITTAKERS I cannot but acknowledge them for mine since they are extant to be read in my owne bookes loath I am to be so vnnaturall as to disauow or abandon any issue begotten on my owne brayne CARD BELLARM. Marke well then M. Doctour my deduction If the Chucrh of Rome remayned in her purity of Fayth without any change for the first six hundred yeares for your owne confessiō aboue expressed is that the Church of Christ so long continued a chast and intemerate Spouse And if as your owne penne hath left it written the doctrine of the Popes Supremacy was taught by Victor the first The doctrine of Merit of Works was mainteyned by Cyprian generally by other Fathers of that age and to be short if Leo were a great Architect of the kingdome of Antichrist you meaning of our present Roman Religion all which said Fathers to wit Cyprian Victor Leo and the rest did liue diuers ages before the sixt age or Century to what time you extēd the purity of the Faith of the Church of Rome doth it not then ineuitably result out of your owne Premisses if al this be true as you affirme it is that the doctrin of the Popes Supremacy the doctrine of merit of workes and our Catholicke Doctrine generally taught by Antichrist as you tearme the Pope were no innouations but the same pure doctrines which the Apostles first plāted in the Church of Rome Se how your felfe through your owne inaduertēcy hath fortified the truth of that doctrine which your selfe did intende to ouerthrow And thus farre to show that their neuer was made any chāg of Fayth in the Church of Rome prooued from the distribution diuision of those two different times which by the learned Protestants acknowledgments do contayne the Periods of the Church of Rome her continuance in the true Fayth of the Publicke and generall Profession of our now present Romane Fayth D. WHITTAKERS My L. Cardinall Whereas you haue produced seuerall testimonies from our owne learned Protestāts who teach that in the second third fourth age after Christ such such an Article of the Papists Religion had it beginning It seemeth in my iudgment that these their authorities do more preiudice then aduantage your cause Since such testimonies if so you will stand to them do shew a beginning though most anciēt of those doctrines after the Apostles deaths and consequently a change of Faith in the Church of Rome For if you will admit the authorities of the Protestants granting the antiquities of the present Romish Religion in those former times you are also by force of reason to admit their like authorities in saying that at such tymes and not before those Articles were first taught for seing both these points are deliuered by the Protestants in one the same sentence or testimony why should the one part thereof be vrged for true and the other reiected as false MICHAEAS M. Doctour Here with my L. Cardinall and your owne good licence I am to make bould to put in a word or two This your reply M. Doctour by way of inference may seeme to lessen the antiqurty of our ancient Iewish Law and therfore I hold my selfe obliged to discouer the weakenes therof though not out of desire to entertaine any contestation with you Grant then that some miscreants or Heathen Writers as Enemies to the Law of Moyses affirme that the Religion of the Iewes had it beginning in the tyme of Esdras for example This their testimony may iustly be alleaged to prooue that our Iewish Law was as auncient at least as Esdras but it cannot be alleadged to prooue that our Law tooke it first beginning at that time only and not before in the dayes of Moyses Therefore in the Authorities of this Nature produced from our Aduersaries writinges we are to distinguish and seuer that which the Aduersaries granteth in the behalfe of vs from that which he affirmeth to his owne aduantage What he grāteth for vs against himselfe so farre we are to embrace his authority seing it may be presumed that ordinarliy no learned man would confesse any thing against himselfe his Religion but what the euidency of the truth therein enforceth him vnto and therefore one of the ancient Doctours of your Christian Church if I do remember his words in this respect said well I will strike the Aduersaryes with their owne weapons But what the Aduersary affirmeth in fauour of his owne cause and against vs their we are not to stand to his own authority since no man is to be a witnes in his owne behalfe and it well may be presumed that such his sentence
Apostles times Therefore I will end with the Instance of the fast of Quatuor Temporum which was first ordained by Pope Calixtus CARD BELLARM. The Vessell M. Doctour from whence you draw these Instances seemes to runne very low and nere the dreggs Seeing for want of examples for change in dogmaticall points of faith you are forced at the last to descend to the Institution of set times of fasts For what is this to the alteration of Faith and Religion in the Church of Rome in any dogmaticall Article which is the point only to be insisted vpon by you Hath not the Church of Christ authority to appoint fasting dayes The Apostles you know did lawfully command all men to forbeare from eating of bloud and of things strangled and may not the Church succeeding them as lawfully command that at certaine times of the yeare and for some few dayes the Christians shall for beare from eating of fleash and vse a more moderate dyet But it seemes you loue not to feede vpon superstitious Popish fish since many of you accoumpt it so Now as touching the antiquity of this fast of Quatuor TemporuÌ„ Where you say it was first ordained by Calixius you grant hereby that it is aboue fourteene hundred yeares since it first institution for Calixtus was the next successour but one to Pope Victor which Victor liued in the yeare of our Lord and Sauiour one hundred and sixty Thus you are more preiudized then aduantaged by prostituting this your sily supposed Innouation I will annex hereto that whereas M. Doctour you do not produce any ancient authour charging Calixtus with the first beginning of this Fast we on the contrary side can alleadge S. Leo ascribing it to proceede from the Doctrine of the Holy Ghost his words are these following Ecclesiastica ieiunia ex doctrina Sancti Spiritus ita per totius anni circulum distribura sunt And thus much touching the Antiquity and lawfulnes of the Past of Quatuor Temporum whereof you see M. Doctour your owne bare assertion excepted no certaine beginning can be knowne since the Apostles dayes But Sir proceede further in other instances if so you can D. WHITAKERS Touching further multiplicity of examples I will not much labour The time is already spent And I hope my former examples notwithstanding your subtill euading of them are able to sway with all such who are truly illuminated with the spirit of the Lord. CARD BELLARM. I beleeue you well You will not labour further therin the true reason being because you cannot For I haue perused your bookes written against Duraeus wherein you cheifly instaÌ„ce touching the chaÌ„ge of the faith of Rome and your other Bookes against Father Campian that blessed Martyr as also your writings against my selfe and I can finde no other instances of this imaginary change insisted by you then these alleadged Yea when the said Father Campian as most confident of no change of Faith in the Church of Rome did most earnestly prouoke you Protestants to name the time and other circumstances accompanying this supposed change in those his vehement and inforcing Interrogations QuaÌ„do hanc fideâ—tant opore celebratum Roma perdidit quardo esse desiâ—t quod antefuit quo tempore quo Pontifice qua via qua vi quibus incrementis Vrbem et Orbem Relgio peruasit aliena quas voces quas turbes quae lamenta progenuit Omnes orbe reliquo sopiti sunt dum Roma Roma inquaÌ„ noua Sacramenta nonum Sacrificium nouum Religionis dogma procuderet You though thus a wakened yet in your answere hereto only dwells in your former example of Pope Siricius aboue refuted touching the single life of Priests in place of further satisfaction you thus reply to the said Father Campian Tuverò si dubitas an desierit meaning whether Rome had changed it Religion potes etiam si vis dubitare ansul meridie splendeat Can any man not blinded with preiudice thinke that if you had any materiall proofes for it change being a point of the greatest consequence that is betweene you and vs but that you being thus extremely importâ—ned would haue particularly iusisted in them and would haue enlarged such your reply with all reading wit learning possible And as for your former Instances they are most impertinent and in themselues most false as is aboue demonstrated they being wâ—res I presume wholy wrought in the shop of your owne braine like the spiders web which is spinned out of her owne Bowels MICHEAS M. Doctonr you must giue me leaue to tell you that your Instances aboue vrged do not much sway my iudgment first because they are not in number past some nine or ten in all of which foure do concerne only the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome and two the doctrine of the Reall Presence so as it may be iustly coniectured that you Produced seuerall instances for one doctrine purposely therby to make shew in this your so great a scarcity of greater number of Examples The rest concerne Priests nor marying Purgatory auricular Confession and the fast of Quauor Temporum Which doctrines are few in respect of the many controuerted points as I am enformed betweene the Church of Rome and the Protestants Therfore I must presume that no instances can be but suggested or imagined to be giuen of the change of the Church of Rome touching the doctrines of the Visibility of the Church of Praying to Saints of Free-will Merit of workes Workes of supererogation Indulgences Monachisme Lymbus patruÌ„ Images the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament Communion only vnder one kind Vninersallity of Grace the Necessuy and vertue of the Sacraments Inherent iustice the knowledge of Christ a man His being God of God and diuers others Secondly in that touching your former Instances some of the sayd doctrines are so agreeable to the practise of our Iewish Synagogue and the iudgments of our learned Rabbyes as I haue shewed as that I can hardly repute them as Innouations D. WHITAKERS The vnanimous agreement of the Church of Rome with you Iewes in some of the former doctrines is of smale force seeing you well know Micheas that the Law was to be abrogated at the comming of the Messias MICHEAS It is granted that our Law at the comming of the Sauiour of the world was to be disanulled so far forth as concerne either sacrifices or other Ceremonies which did prefigure the comming of the Messias yet seeing many dogmaticall points of faith beleeued by the Iewes haue no reference to his comming as the foresaid doctrines of Purgatory Confession of sinns c. therfore there can be no reason alleadged why the beleife of them in the time of the Lawe should not be a strong argument for their like beleife now in the time of Grace Wee may add hereto that if euery thing which was taught and commanded by the Law should now be abrogated then the tenne Commandements should in no sort belong to
vs at what times some sensible degrees and increase of this supposed change did happen and the manifestatioÌ„ of these degrees is to be made by naming the time and person when by whoÌ„ such and such a particular poynt or article of our present Roman Religion was first sensibly introduced into the Church of Rome The which not any Protestant notwithstanding all his exquisite and precise search of Ecclesiasticall Histories hath bin able yet to perform And thus farre M. Doctour of these your similitudes which you see in a true ballancing of them do become rather hurtfull then beneficiall to your Cause and therfore they had ben better forborne by you then vrged D. WHITAKERS Indeede I grant that there are no Histories or Records at this day out of which we can certainly collect the change of Religion in the Roman Church But no doubt such Records there were though now wholy extinguished made away by the vigilancy and carefulnes of former Pâ—pes who to preserue the honour of their Church as free and exeÌ„pt from all change and innouation did deliberately purposely cause all Coppies of such writings and narrations to be for euer suppressed and buried in obliuion eyther by fire or otherwise CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour this is a meare groundles Phantasie If you haue any graue testimonies warranting a generall suppression of all such records then all of them were not extinguished since the testimonies which affirme so much are yet extant If you produce no authority witnessing so much then why should we beleiue your bare and naked affirmation herein But to examine more punctually this poore refuge And first wheras you teach that this change of Faith in the Roman Church came in by degrees now by innouating one point of the ancient true Fayth now another supposing for the time this to be true how can it be conceiued that all the Coppies of such particular changes in Faith already dispersed throughout all Christendome in the handes of infinite Protestants as you maÌ„taine though vntruly that in those times they were could be gathered suppressed without any remembrance thereof to all posterity It is most absurd but to furmise such an impossibility Furthermore do we not see that the liues of such Popes which can be lesse warranted were recorded in histories yet extant to this very houre as else where is intimated Neither the narrations of them either were or could euer be suppressed How then can we be persuaded that the memory of this supposed great chang could by any such meanes be cancelled in a perpetuall forgetfulnes Since certaine it is that the Popes if possible they could would haue caused all narrations touching the personall faults of their Predecessours to haue beene vtterly extinguished considering that such their lesse iustifiable liues might be reputed by many to be no smale blemisne to the Church of Rome Such an improbability this your euasion M. Doctour inuolues in its selfe D. WHITAKERS My Lord It seemes you are very dexterous in warding all our instances and other arguments aboue produced to prooue the former presumed change But imagine for the time that we cannot alleadge out of any now extant authorized history examples of any knowne innouation imagine also that we cannot shew at what particular time and season the parcels of these changes did happen imagine lastly that there were neuer any records testimonies or writings in which these changes were registred yet how are you able to put by the sharp-poynted weapon of Scripture wherwith your religion is mortally foyled We know that the Fayth of the present Roman Religion is repugnant to the holy Scriptures to which only wee appeale and whose â—autarceia and all sufficiency is defended by vs Protestants the sacred Scripture being to vs more then decaplês apologia a tenfould shield of our fayth This I say we know and consequently we further know that the fayth of the Romish Church is not the same which was planted in Rome by the Apostles Here is our fortresse here is our strength and this place to you Romanists is maccessible Here we haue Tò retòn the Word epi tèn dianeian tóùr etóù to the true meaning of the Word all Controuersies are to be referred And with this Word we are able to inflict Cairian pâ—etèn deadly to wound your popish Religion And we are so truely impatrônized of the holy Scripture as that wee dare pronounce with the Apostle If an Angell reach any other Ghosple vnto you then that which wee haue preached let him be Anathema For to vs it is sufficient by comparing the Popish Opinious with the Scripture to discouer the disparity of Fayth betweene them and vs and as for Historiographers Wee giue them liberty to write what they will seeing this aplóùs lógos tes ' aletheias this simple Word of truth is able to refute any thing brought to the contrary And therfâ—re my Lord Cardinall I must say to you here with Archidamus ' èt è◠dynamei próstheis ' e tóù phronématos ' ypheis either maÌ„taine your Religion with the force of Scripture or else wisely cease from the further defence thereof CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour before I come to ballance this your last argument you must pardon me if I smile to my selle to obserue how affectedly and ambitiously you haue rioted in your Greeke throughout this whole discourse and especially in this your last close besprinkling diuers passages thereof as it were with some Greeke word or other Which in my iudgment beare with me if I misconster your meaning is but to beare your ignorant followers in hand what jolly men and great Clarkes you Protestants are And according hereto we commonly find the bookes writen either by English French or German Protestants euen to swell with Greeke phrases or sentences But who seeth not how forced this is it being a point of ostentation and vanity thus to braue it forth in a froath of strange wordes We all know the tongues are but the porters of learning in which the Catholicks though with more cession modesty are most skilfull and that he who is a learned man indeede is euer presumed afore hand to be expert in them as being meanes conducing to the perfection of learning Thus the want of Greeke is a great defect the enioying of it but a necessary furniture of a scholar Therefore who vanteth hereof or is become fond of a few greeke words being commonly ignorant of the riches contayned in that tongue as many Protestants are is like to that man who taketh delight in a litle Mother of Pearle he reioiceth he hauing no interest to the Pearle within contayned I speake not this but that it is lawfull sometime to make vse of Greeke phrases and sentences but this chiefly when the QuestioÌ„ is touching translations out of that tongue and that we are to recurre to the Greeke being the originall for the cleering of that point Or when the
and Piety your former assertion in ascribing the Protest an t faith to all that Country cannot be iustifyed For though I grant it is on most sides obsest as I may say with Protestancy yet it is certaine that diuers principall parts thereof are not Protestant but Catholicke in Religion As halfe of Switzerland a part of the Grisons Voltolyne the whole Country of Bauaria the Territories of all the Bishops Electours the kingdome of Bohemia besides many Imperiall Citties and states Againe as other parts thereof do ioyntly and particulerly disclaime from the Roman Religion so though they all do challenge to themselues the name of Protestants yet do they manteine many irreconcileable differences of Religion enen of the greatest importance like seuerall wayes and Tracts meeting in one common place and then instantly deuided one from another This appeareth as I am enformed most cleare and euident from the authority of Hospinian a learned German Protestant who hath diligently set downe the names of many scores of Bookes written in great acerbity of style by one Gerâ—aÌ„ Protestant against another German Protestant according nereto it is that we finde so many kindes of Sectaries and Hereticks in Germany as the Caluinists the Lutherans the Anabaptists the Antitrinitarians and some others though they all be linked and tyed together in the common and maine knot of Protestancy And thus farre M. Doctour of this point where you see I haue smale reason to embrace the Protestant Religion before the Catholicke because that is professed throughout Germany as you pretend this cheifly restrained to Italy Spayne and France But let vs returne backe to the generall subject of this your disoutation with my Lord Cardinall I would intreat you M. Doctour to alleadge some stronger arguments for the change off yeh in the Church of Rome then hitherto you haue giuen which if you do not then what by reason of the weakenes of your said arguments at least in my apprehension and what in respect that I do not see the proofes Produced by my Lord Cardinal to be sufficiently by you refuted I must tell you aforehand I will embrace the Catholicke Roman Religion disauow all Protestancy CARD BLLARM M. Doctour if you can support this your position of Romes change with other more forcing reasons I would intreate you now to insist further in them You see I am prepared to giue my best answere to what you can object If you do not I must presume all your forces are already spent they indeed being but weake reseÌ„bling that of S. Iude Cloudes without water carryed about with windes MICHEAS I pray you M. Doctour forbeare not to grant to this my desire since otherwise I must rest assured that no more can be sayd on your part touching this subject CARD BELLARM. Yeild M. Doctour to this Learned Iewes importunity you know he hath vndertaken a journey of many hundred miles to this Citty onely to be resolued in this one Point therefore both in charity and for the preseruing of your owne honour and reputation you stand obliged to giue all satisfaction vnto him D. WHITAKERS Tush you are both ouer vpbrayding with me and seeing I intend no further dispute with men of so irreâ—ragable dispositions I first for a close say to you Micheas that where you intend to become a Papist your change is this that you leaue that which was ouce good though now bad to embrace that which is euer bad I meane you leaue Iudaisme to entertaine Papisme and thus you become a new Proselyte or rather Neophyte in the schoole of Superstition Idolatry Now as for you Cardinall whose name is so celebrious and so much aduanced in the eares and mouthes a fall men know you that touching the subiect of this our discourse I doubt not but that my arguments reasons and Instances aboue alleadged do in the iudgment of such as the Lord hath illuminated with the truth of the Ghosple sufficiently prooue the great changes made of Fayth and Religion in the Church of Rome since it first receaued it Faith in the Apostles daies And if the truth hereof be hid from any I may then say with the Apostle It is hid from them that perish and are lost Therefore my irreuocable conclusion is this that the Church of Rome was once the true Church and in fayth pure and incontaminate as before I acknowledged but at this present it is The Whore of Babilon a branch cut from the true Vine adenne of theeues the large way leading to destruction the kingdome of Hell the Body of Antichrist a heape or masse of errours a great Mother of whoring the Church of the wicked out of the which it behoucth euery christian to depart and which Christ in the end will miserably destroy inflict due punishments for all it impieties and with this as vnwilling to haue further entercourse or dispute with any that subiect themselues to this prophane Church I end and bid you both farewell CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour I much greiue to see you thus transported with passion and to inueigh with such acerbity of words against Christs intemerate spouse but I the more easily pardon you since it is hard vpon the sodame to cast of a habit which hath beene often engrained in diuers tinctures of many operations so spleenfull a â—â—slike you haue against the Church of Rome and indeede it seemes you labour with the disease of those whose spitle being enuenomed make them to thinke that euery thing they take in their mouths doth taste of venome But since it is your minde to breake off so sodainely with vs I recommend you to the tuition of him who in an instant is able to turne the most stony hart into Cor docile and Cor emolitum and my prayers shal be that before the time of your death you may haue the grace to implant your selfe as a branch of that Church the profession of whose faith may be auaileable to the sauing of your soule MICHEAS I am beholden vnto you M. Doctour for your Paines and labour taken in this disputation howbeit I must confesse I did expect to haue heard more said for the proofe of the Church of Rome her change in Religion then as yet is deliuered where I see that your faire promised mountaines in the beginning do but turne to snow and after resolue into water and that by your finall appealing to the written word alone you endeauour to set the best face vpon your ouerthrow in this your dispute bearing your selfe herein like to souldiers who are forced to yeild vp their hould and yet couet to depart with such ceremonies as are not competent to such as yeild Neuerthelesse I commend you to the protection of the God of Israell and will pray that you may after this life enioy the blessings which are already granted to Abraham Isaâ—ck Iacob and their Seede D. VVHITAKERS Well well Once more I bid you both farewell MICHEAS My
be attended on with an ouer late repentance And you must knowe that the wings of a new conuerted soule to Christ do commonly at the first performe their speediest flight Quis dabit mihi pennas sicut Columbae et volabo Which for the most part after through some default or other do begin to lagg and to make certaine plaines For though these first Motions of the soule in the seruice of God be neither Naturall nor Violent since they descend only from him to whome by prayer we ascend yet they pertake much of that MotioÌ„ which is violent they being ordinarily more strong feruerous in the beginning more remisse towards the end and indeed experience teacheth vs that a Precipitiòus and ouer hasty deuotion is sometimes daÌ„gerous But if this your good desire do hereafter perseuere and continew I shall be ready within conuenient time to giue you my best assistance therein MICHEAS My Lord I make smale doubt that this my resolution through the ayde of him who first did inspire it into my soule will remayne stable and vnchangeable Therefore your Lordship may further hereby take notice that my intention is to spend his short remnant of my yeares in diligently studying the Controuersies betweene the Catholicks the Protestants to attempt as afore I intimated to plant that relilgion in others which you haue already planted in me I further am resolued to take a view if my aged feeble body will suffer me of the most famous Catholicke Protestant Vniuersities in Christendome and particularly I haue I confesse a thirsting desire to see the two so much celebrated Vniuersities of England of the one of which I here D. Whitakers is a member places of which Fame her selfe hath sounded her trumpet in the highest Note Now my good Lord in regard of these my determinations and of my late embracing of the present Roman Roligion the noyse and bruite whereof will no doubt spread it selfe at large I do probably presage that I shall meete with diuers Protestants who hearing of my election of Religion will perhaps earnestly solicite me for my change to them and making many violent incursions vpon my yet weake and vnfortified iudgment will endeauour to demollish and lay leuell with the ground whatsoeuer your Lordspip by your former learned discourse hath already built in my soule Therefore that I may sit close and immooueable in this my choyce of faith now made I would intreate your Lordship to instruct me how I may best guide occasion in discourse with such Men that so they may not be able to winne ground vpon my weakenesse For though I can in part discerne the sufficiency of other men yet reflecting vpon my owne imbecillity I with all discouer the want of their like sufficiency in my selfe I herein resembling the outward sence which aswell iudgeth of the absence as of the presence of it Obiect Therefore good my Lord initiate me a litle in this Mistery CARD BELLARM. Mieheas I like well of this your Promethian and forecasting wisedome And I will to my best ability powre satisfie this your desire And whereas you say you determine to see the Vniuersities of England I approoue well thereof for I haue often heard that speaking of the Materials of an Vniuersity they are the goodliest in all ChristeÌ„dome I meane for magnificence and statelines of their Colledges for opâ—lency and great reuenewes belonging to them and for their pleasing and sweete scituations If you go to Oxford you shall in all likelyhood fall in acquaintance with one D. Reynolds a Man as I am enformed not of a harsh and fiery as his Brother D. Whitakers is but of a temperate comportment one of whom the whole Vniuersity doth highly preiudge and indeede not vndeseruedly he being his Religion excepted endued with many good parts of literature and who hath heretofore bene my Antagonist in some of his Books written against some parcels of my Controuersies But now to descend to your last request to me seeing then you are not as yet conuersant in Points of faith controuerted betweene the Catholicke and Protestant My maine and first aduise is that in all points of faith of which any dispute may hereafter occurre betweene you and any Protestant you finally do rest in the authority of Christs visible Church and the cheife heade thereof assuring your selfe that although Simon the fisher was not able to determine matters of faith yet that Simon Peter and his successours assisted with competency of meanes haue euer an impeachable soueraignty granted to them and a delegated authority from Christ himselfe for the absolute discussing deciding of all Articles in faith and Religion Tues Petrus et super hanc Petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam et portae Inferi non praeualebunt aduersus eam Expect to meete with men who are witty and of good talents and who well know how to spread their Netts to catch the vnprouided And whose streame of discourse for diuers of them are of great elocution for the most part runneth in their accustomed chanels of pleasing insinuations persuading to their faith and a violent ouercharge of gauleful words against the present Roman faith Touching their allegation of authorities either deuine or humane credit them no further then your owne eyes will giue you leaue for diuers of them vse strange impostures therein though they warrant such their proceedings with greate coÌ„fidency of earnest asseuerations quod si etiam viuit Dominus dixerint et hoc falsò iurabunt Make choice if so it lieth in your power rather to dispute with Protestant Doctours and Ministers who are vnmarried then married since the secret iudgments of these later may well be ouercome by force of argument but to persuade the wills to follow their iudgments in regard of theire clog of wife children and worldly preferments is more then a Herculean labour And indeed I confesse I do much commiserate the state of diuers of them who being otherwise of great wits and might haue beene much seruiceable in the Church of God by being inchanted with a little Redd and White and a well proportioned face do in their yonger daies tye theÌ„selues by marriage to the world to the attending afflictions thereof ô that the soule of man not subiect to dimension should be thus enthralled to Creatures for their hauing a pleasing dimension But to proceede You shall finde many of them of great reading yet of reading sorting rather to contradict and quarrell then to instruct but diuers of their coate are content through their owne want to retaile by help of Indexes and such other meanes their owne more learned Brethrens writings labours And many of these through their owne ignorance thinke they do well and that they professe a true faith wheras the more learned of them through their reading and study must in their owne soules of necessity be conscious guilty of the falsehood of their owne Cause though the preseÌ„t
and temporary respects of riches and preferments are so potent and forcible with them as that they câ—nnot or at least they will not be induced to follow the Dictamen and resolution of their owne Iudgments If the subiect of your discourse be about the abstruse Misteries of the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist or of some other such sublime points you shall hardly draw them to relinquish naturall reason so deepely are they immersed therein it being indeed their Pillar of Non plus vltra Thus where other Christians enioy two eyes the one of Faith the other of Nature These Polyphemi shutting that of Faith do looke vpon the Articles of Religion only with this of Nature Choose rather to dispute touching matter of fact with in which may be included the proofe of the truth or falshood of the Protestant Religion then touching any dogmaticall point of faith and doctrine as receiuing it proofe from the scripture This I speake not but that the scripture makes most clearly for the Catholicks and against the Protestants But because your aduersary in dispute will euer cauill at your exposition of Scripture reducing it in the end against all antiquity of Fathers and tradition of the Church to the interpretation of his owne priuate and reuealing spirit and so your labour would prooue commonly to be lost thereby Now in matter of fact your Aduersary is forced to stand to the authorities deduced froÌ„ Ecclesiasticall Histories and other such humane proofes and therfore he must either shape a pro bable if not a sufficient answere to them which he neuer can do they wholy making against him euen by his owne learned brethrens Confessions or els he must rest silent And this is the reason why the Protestants are so loath to dispute of the Church since this Question comprehendeth in it selfe diuers points of fact as of it continuall Visibility Antiquity Succession Ordination and Mission of Pastours c. All which QuestioÌ„s receiue their proofes from particuler Instances warranted by shewing the particular times persons and other circumstances concerning matter of fact An other reason of this your choyse of your subiect of dispute may be in that few Men and those only schollers can truly censure of the exposition of scripture whereas almost euery illiterate man enioying but a reasonable capacity is able sufficiently to iudge of the testimonies produced to prooue or disprooue matter of fact And here I would wish you that in your dispute you labour to haue some Catholicks present for where all the Auditory are Protestants certaine it is that they will voice it against you howsoeuer the disputatioÌ„ may otherwise go But because these obseruatioÌ„s are ouer generall I will giue you here some more particuler since most of them may be restrained to certain particular passages which may occurre betweene you and your disputant Aduersary 1. First then let the true state of the Question discussed of be set downe and acknowledged on both sides in regard of the often willfully mistaken doctrine of the Catholicks That done reduce the question disputed of to as few branches as you can since multiplicity of Points is more subiect to confusion and forgetfulnes and giueth greater liberty to extrauagant digressions And will your Aduersary to auoid all such speaches but what are pertinent to the point handled And if he will needs wander in his discourses then you may reduce the force of them by way of Enthimem or syllogisme to the point disputed of that so both your Aduersary and the Auditory may see how roueingly these his speaches were vsed and how lowsely they and the question then handled do hang together 2. If your Aduersary vndertake the part of the Answerer suffer not him to oppose though he labour to do so to free himselfe from answering when he shall see himselfe plunged In like sort if he vndergo the part of the Opponent tye him precisely euer to oppose which Scene perhaps he being brought to a Non plus would sleyly transferre vpon you And thus be sure that eich of you keepe your chosen station 3. If your disputant will vaunt that he will prooue all by scripture onely as most of them giue it out they will then force him to draw all his premisses I meane both his Propositions if so they should be reduced to a forme of argument from the scripture alone of which Methode within two or three arguments he is most certaine to faile And if he take either of his Propositions from humane authority or from Naturall Reason you may tell him he leaueth his vndertaken Taske to wit to prooue from Scripture alone and consequently you may deny the force of his argument though otherwise logicall if it were reduced to forme 4. In your proofs drawne from Scripture labour to be much practised in the Protestants Translations of it of which infinite places make for the Catholicks Cause euen as the Scripture is translated by the Protestants This course farre gauleth them more then if you insisted in the Catholicke traÌ„slation 5. If you dispute with any by writing or enterchange of letters this being but a mute Aduocate of the minde write nothing but matter and with as much compendiousnes as the subiect will beare without any verball excursions or digressions since this proceeding will force your Aduersary to reply if he will reply at all to the matter For otherwise leauing the point which is cheifly to be handled he will shape a reply to other lesse necessary stuffe deliuered by you and then his Reply must passe abroad by the help of many partiall tongues for a full answere to your whole discourse 6. In like sort if you attempt to charge a Protestant Authour with lyes or Corruptions in their writings with which many of their bookes are euen loaded rather insist in a few and those manifest and vnanswereable then in a greater number seeing if your Aduersary can make show to salue but three or foure of a greater number which the more easily he may do by how much the number of the instanced falsifications is greater the supposed answereing of theÌ„ chosen picked out by him must seeme to disgrace all the rest vrged by you 7. If you intend to bring and obiect any wicked and vnwarrantable sayings especially out of Luther either against the Blessed Trinity or about his acknowledged lust sensuality be carefull to note the Editions of the Booke wherein such his sayings are to be found For in the later Editions of his workes many such sentences are for very shame left out and vnprinted And hereupon there are diuers Protestants who vtterly deny that euer any such words were written by him 8. Be skilfull in discouering though not in practising Sophistry that so you may the better loose and vntie eâ—â—e Protestants knots of deceipte diuers of them being most expert in all kinds of Paralogisme And particulerly takeheede of that grosse and vulger sleight vnworthy a schollar drawne from the particuler to the
treasury or storehouse of the Muses And I must confesse that during my long trauell and perlustration of all Christendome my eyes neuer beheld such two fayre places designed for Nurses of learning as Oxford Cambridge are the very honor and glory of your Nation For where are thete such healthfull and pleasant seates for Vniuersityes both being placed in a Triangle from the chiefe Citty of the realme Such magnificent and stately buildings and Colledges fitting to be pallaces to so many Princes Such opulency of reuenews and rich endowments appropriated vnto them for the education of poore schollers Finally such pious statutes Ordinances and Decrees left by their Founders for the aduancement of vertue and learning All this is not to be matched I assure my selfe throughout the whole Circumference of the earth Only the defect and griefe is that the Vniuersityes their liuings being first instituted giuen by Catholicke Founders and for the propagation of the Catholicke Religion for from them as from two mayne sources and welsprings by the conduits of particuler Mens labors the whole land touching sayth did receiue its watering are now most repugnantly from the first Erectors intention turned to the depressing and ouerthrow of the sayd Catholicke Religion matter to be deliuered in Threnes or Elegyes and Accents of lamentation and complaint And such as the Vniuersityes are so are the students many of them euen by my owne tryall of eleuated wits of transpearcing iudgments most skilfull in the learned tongues fraught with all choysnes of good letters and finally of a candide ingenuity in their comportments D. REYNOLDS Though reports do often multiply and become greater in their owne agitation yet your prayses of our Academies I take for no amplification of speeches but if credit may be giuen to many great trauellers for positiue and measured truths They both are two Sisters linked in the bond of so inuiolable a friendship and association as that they may be well tearmed Oxonium Cantabrigiense and Cantabrigia Oxoniensis Yet the elder of these two is Oxford And since I am a Sonne of her I could haue wished I had met with you before your Conference had with D. Whitakers a Branch of Cambridge and otherwise a Man of great talents and parts For I should haue hoped that as Oxford is the elder Sister so from a member of the elder Sister you should haue receyued greater satisfaction in the light of the Ghospell then both by relation of others and now by your owne ouertures you haue That Oxford is the elder Sister and therein hath her preeminence of her primogeniture we easely prooue for we deduce the first occasion of our Vniuersity though not the plantation euen from the tyme of Brutus who when he came into this Iland was accompanyed with diuers learned Greeke Philosophers who made choise of a place neere to Oxford to seate themselues in as a place most pleasant and fitting for speculation and study After which tymes Alphredus yongest Sonne of Ethelwolpe King of the West-saxons about the yeare of the Incarnation 873. himselfe being after King did translate those scholes of the greeke Philosophers which afore had suffred dishonour and contempt to Oxford And then with Immunityes liuings and buildings he gaue the first foundation to our Vniuersity MICHAEAS M. Doctour I am no Herauld to discusse or proclayme Antiquityes And I know not whether of these two Sisters be more ancient yet in that I will not be vngratefull vnto Cambridge for my late kinde entertaynment I will not conceale what my Memory can truly yeild vnto concerning the Antiquity of Cambridge discoursed off by some of that Vniuersity They sayd that Cantaber who was Sonne of one of the Kings of Spayne coming into England before the Incarnation of our Lord and Sauiour 394. yeares and marying a daughter of Gurguntius King of the Britons gaue first plantation and Name to their Vniuersity and caused it to be frequented with Philosophers and other learned men Now of what credit both your Antiquities are I know not if the one hath the prerogatiue in Antiquity the other enioyeth it in statelinesse of buyldings But howsoeuer these matters be they are both most celebrious and renowned Seminaryes of learning and not drouping Academyes as some are in other Countreyes Seing it is your pleasure M. Doctour thus to entertayne discourse touching these famous places I will acquaint you with two things which since my first seeing of them I haue obserued One is that not only euery Colledge in it library but diuers Studens in ech Colledge haue in their studyes many Catholicke wryters and particulerly the so much much celebrated works of Bellarmyne fayrely bound vp and well stringed But I feare they are there placed rather for a compleate furnishing of their Libraryes then for any great vse of reading them And so the benefit by them is no more then if a patient sending for pills to the Physitian should neuer take them but let them lye in his chamber window D. REYNOLDS It is farre otherwise for all those bookes mentioned are much read by many of vs And Bellarmynes arguments are refuted in our weekly Sermons as occasion is incidently ministred from the Text. And my selfe particulerly haue publikely read in yonder greate Diuinity Schoole that you see as also haue writen against him MICHAEAS I know your selfe are learned withall I know you haue not only writen but also read in confuting of him as a neere acquaintance of myne who was an earewitnesse of your lectures hath tould me But as for others who in their Sermons euen obtorto collo will needes hale Bellarmyne in I am halfe perswaded they do it with the like policy which some men liuing about great Townes and willing to get the reputation of valour are accustomed to do that is they purposely quarell thereby to be spoken of for their courage with some one or other chiefe professed Hacster or Swashbukler D. REYNOLDS O Michaeas Your censure is ouer vncharitable It is the desire of hauing the Truth tryed which prouokes our Deuynes in their Sermons to trace Bellarmyne that so the schollers their Auditours may more easily declyne the obliquity of his pathes MICHAEAS I can not much blame you to set the best glasse vpon your Brethrens actions But this I must say that those Schollers of your Vniuersiryes which are of cleere vnderstandings not forestauled by badly preiudging of Catholicke Religion but aboue all hauing sufficiency of temporall meanes to support their states and not expecting to rise by Ecclesiasticall liuings the most dangerous Bayte of these tymes must in all morall certainty fauour in their priuate iudgment the Catholicke partie if so with diligence they peruse the Cardinalls works and other Catholicke writers But otherwise it is a death when a Man of ripe age and well furnished with learning is brought through want of meanes to say O how must I liue The Roman Religion I see threatneth pouerty disgrace and perhapps the
mayne Heresies or Paradoxes wholy impugned gainsaid and contradicted both by Protestant and Catholicke For this Man in this respecte is to be styled rather an open Hereticke then a Protestant euen in the censure of the Protestants themselues Therefore to conclude this last obseruation Euen as when beasts of seueral Kyndes or species do coople together that which is ingendred is of a third Kinde diuers from them both So here that Religion or fayth which is as it were propagated from the mixture of contrary Religions must be a beliefe different from them al. These things being premised now M. Doctour or either of you two may begin to instance in Protestant Professours for euery age And I shall reply therto as my iudgment and reading wil best inable me OCHINVS I do like well of these your animaduertions and they are able in a cleare iudgement to fanne away imperfect and faulty instances from such as be true and perfect MICHAEAS Before any of you begin your discours of Instancing I must demand of you al as Cardinal Bellarmyne did in his late discours with D. Whitakers whether you wil be content to stand to the authority of your owne learned Brethren in al the following passages betweene vs D. REYNOLDS I here answere for vs al We will indisputably stand to our owne mens learned iudgmeÌ„ts And if you can conuince either our future examples or our cause in generall from our Protestants penns we yeald you the victory For I do hould with Osiander the Protestant that the Confession and testimony of an Aduersary is of greatest authority And therefore Peter Martyr truly saith surely among other testimonyes that is of greatest weight which is giuen by the Enemyes And D. Bancrofs to omit al other Protestants in this point confirmeth the same thus writing Let vs take hould of that which they haue granted you may be bould to build thereupon for a truth that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto Which kinde of proofe is no lesse warranted by the Auncient Fathers for Ireneus saith It is an vnanswerable proofe which bringeth attestation from the Aduersaries themselues And Nazianzen pronounceth thus hereof It is the greatest cuâ—ning and wisdome of speech to bynd the Aduersary with his owne words So full you see Michaeas I am in this point But now let vs come to the maine matter To produce instances of Protestancy shal be my peculiar Scene And that I may the better marshal and incampe as it were my examples thereby the more forcibly to inuade your iudgment I will begin with the later times of the Church and so ascend vpwards And first for these last threescore yeares the Gospell of Christ hath enioyed here in England to forbeare all other Countreyes it Visibility in it full Orbe all writers of these dayes and other Nations acknowledging no lesse Againe in K. Edward the sixt his time this worthy Man Ochinus here present backed with the like endeauours of the learned Peter Martyr did so plant our Protestant fayth in our Nation as that infinite most remarkable Professours thereof did instantly growne like roses after a long cold or tempest blooming forth through the heate of the Sunne with refeâ—erence of which Professours Ochinus may iustly apply to himselfe the words of Aenias Quorum pars magna fui MICHAEAS Concerning the Professours of Protestancy here in England since Queene Elizabeth came to the Crowne I easily grant they haue been most Visible as I gather out of your English Chronicles And thus I freely confesse that Protestancy hath continued in England some threescore and seauen yeares But where you say that Protestancy I meane as it comprehendeth all the Articles taught at this day for Protestancy and which necessarily concurre to the making of a perfect complete Protestant was fully taught and beleiued in K. Edward his dayes I absolutely deny OCHINVS Will you deny Michaeas so manifest a verity whereas myselfe was not only an eyewitnesse in those times but If I may speake in modesty a greate Cause thereof What will you not deny if you deny such illustrious Trueths and what hope can we haue of your bettering by this our disputation MICHAEAS Good Ochinus beare me not downe with astreame of vaunting words the refuse of speech but if you can with force of argument I peremptorily deny the former point and for iustifying this my deniall I wil recurre to the Communion Booke set out in K. Edwards time with the approbation and allowance as D. Doue a Protestant affirmeth of Peter Martyr your Cooperatour Which Booke we must presume in al reason was made according to the publike fayth of the King and the Realme established in those tymes and the rather considering that the said Communion Booke for it greater authority was warranted in the Kings time by Act of Parliament Now this Communion Booke or publicke Lyturgy of the fayth of England in those dayes being printed in folio by Edward Whit-church anno 1549. pertaketh in many points with our Roman Religion For it maketh speciall defence for Ceremonyes and prescribeth that the Eucharist shal be consecrated with the signe of the Crosse It commandeth consecration of the Water of Baptisme with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth of Chrisme as also of the Childs annoynting and Exorcisme In that booke mention is made of prayer for the dead and intercession and offering vp of our Prayers by Angells It deffendeth Baptisme giuen by Laypersons in time of necessity and the grace of that Sacrament as also Confirmation of children and strength giuen them thereby It mentioneth according to the custome vsed in tyme at Masse at this very day the Priests turning sometimes to the Altar and sometimes to the People It ordayneth that answerably yet to our Catholike custome Alleluya should be said from Easter to Trinity sunday It prescribeth the Priest blessing of the Bryde brydegroome with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth the Priests absolution of the sicke Penetent with these particular words By the authority committed vnto me I absolute thee of all thy sinns It mentioneth a speciall Confession of the sicke Penitent And lastly it commandeth the annoynting of the sicke Person which we Catholicks call the Sacrament of Extreme Vnction So little reason Ocbinus you see you haue to affirme that the Protestancy of the present Church of England is the same which was mantained and publikely established by King Edward OCHINVS Indeede I grant the Communion booke was then made by the consent of the Parliament but I instructed those with whom I conuersed to reiect those superstitions their confirmed D. REYNOLDS Well let that passe It auayleth not much whether Protestancy was here in England at those dayes or no since it is certaine it was then most fully dilated in many other Countryes by the late afore raysing vp of Luther who was miraculously sent by the Holy
Ghost to illuminate the world with the Trueth of the Ghospell and to discipate the clowds of the former Romish Errours And I am assured Michaeas you wil acknowledg Luther for a perfect Protestant in all points and consequently that the Protestant Church was in Luther his followers most conspicuous and Visible MICHAEAS I know most of our new Ghospellers trauayle with you M. D. on this child to wit that Luther did erect a perfect forme of Protestancy By the which we may learne that Affection is not only blind but also deafe so loath you Protestants are either to see or heare any thing against Luther herein Neuerthelesse I here auerre it is impossible to iustify Luther for a true Protestant I know also that himselfe thus vaunteth Christum a nobis primò vulgatum audemus gloriari where we may see it is an accustomed blemish of most Innouatours to become their owne Parasites NEVSERVS Strange Luther not a Protestant doth the Sunne shine Is the fier hot Doth the Sea ebb and flow As certaine as any of these so certaine Luther was a perfect and true Protestant He was the Sunne that did dispel in those dayes the mists of Antichristian darkenesse From his preaching and writings a â—ier of Christian zeale was inkindled in thousands of mens soules for the embrasing of the Ghospell of Christ And neuer did the torrent and inundation of superstition and Idolatry suffer a greater reflux a greater reflux and Ebb then in his life time MICHAEAS Rhetorically amplifyed Neuserus But it is the weight of Reason not a froath of empty words which sway the iudicious I grant that Luther did derogatize more articles of Innouation and Nouelisme now taught by Protestants then any one Man afore him did since the first plantation of Christianity yet that Luther was a perfect and articulate Protestant and such as the present Protestant Church with relation to the doctrine now taught by that Church may iustly truely acknowledg for a member thereof I eternally denye and do iustify my deniall out of his owne bookes so shall Luther prooue that Luther was no Protestant Now this I euict according to my former premonitions and cautions first because Luther did euer hould euen after his reuolt from the Church of Rome diuers Catholicke opinions or doctrines then and still now taught by the said Church Secondly in that Luther after his departure from the Church of Rome did mantayne diuers grosse errours or rather Heresies or rather blasphemies and for such at this day condemned both by Catholicks and Protestants So euident it will appeare that Luther was too weake a bulke to giue nurrishment to all those different plants which now do stile themselues Protestants And first touching seuerall Catholicke points euer beleiued defended by Luther euen to his last day these following may serue as Instances 1. First he euer maintayned the Reall Presence in the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist as the world knoweth And his followers for their peculiar defence of this doctrine are styled Lutherans by Swinglins Caluin their party impugning the foresaid doctrine 2. Luther also defended Prayer to Saints of which point he thus wryteth De intercessione diuorum cum tota Ecclesia Christiana sentio iudico sanctos a nobis honorandos esse atque inuocandos 3. He also taught the doctrine of Euangelicall Counsells to wit that a man might do more then he is commanded as appeareth out of his Booke de assertionibus 4. The Doctrine of Purgatory he taught of which see tom 〈◊〉 Wittenberg in resolut de Indulgentijs And answerably to this ground he is confessed by Vrbanus Regius a Protestant to defend prayer for the Dead 5. Luther further taught and approued the vse of Images as Beza witnesseth 6. The indifferency of communion vnder one or both kindes contrary to the doctrine of the Protestants who place a necessity in both is allowed by Luther in these words quamuis pulcrum sit c. Although it were very seemely to vse both the species or formes in the blessed Eucharist though Christ commanded nothing herein as necessary yet it were better to follow peace c. then to contende about the formes 7. Touching the making of the signe of the Crosse vpon our foreheads Iohannes Creuelius a Lutheran thus witnesseth Cum imus cubitum â—iue surgimus electo cruce nos iuxta Lutheri aliorum piorumâ—â— institutionem signamus When we go to bedd or rise from thence we do signe our selues with the signe of the Crosse according to the aduice of Luther and other pious men And Iohannes Maulius Luthers scholler thus writeth of Luther respondet Lutherus signo crucis facto Deus me tuetitur Luther answereth at the making of the signe of the Crosse God defend me 8. Finally to omit diuers other points wherein Luther neuer dissented from the Church of Rome Luther euer mantained that the gouerment of the Church is Monarchical neither Aristocratical nor Popular of which point Luther thus writeth Cum Deus voluerit c. Seing God would haue one Catholicke Church throughout the whole World it was needful that one people imo vnum aliquem patrem istius vnius populi elegi yea some one father of this one people should be choosen ad quem suos posteros spectant totus orbis to whose care and his successours the whole World should belong And thus farre Gentlemen touching some tast to shew that Luther euen after his forsaking of the Catholicke and Roman Church did neuerthelesse still retaine and belieue diuers Catholicke doctrines and consequently was no no entire and perfect Protestant D. REYNOLDS I confesse indeede that Luther as appeareth by his owne writings did not reueale to the new World as I may tearme it all the Euangelical Trueth the fuller discouery of some parts thereof being reserued for our later dayes And though his owne Religion was not through want of beliefe of some Trueths perfectly good yet I am assured It is not by his pesitiuely mantayning of any one errour then in what he was nuzled by the Church of Rome in any sort euill MICHAEAS This your reply is impertinent for here the Question is only whether Luther in respest of his faith was such an absolute Protestant as at this day our Gospellers repute for a good sound Protestant Yet that you may see your owne errour otherwise in ouer highly preiudging of Luthers Religion I wil here particularize out of his owne writings and other Protestants relations certaine Heresies and blasphemies neuer by him after recaled and incompatible with saluation for modicum firmentum totam massam corrumpit which he did egurgitate out of his impure stomak From whence we may inferre that with lesse reason he may be vrged for a Protestant 1. And First I wil here alleadg his impious doctrine wherin he labored to cut and wound Christian Religion euen in it maister-veine touching the
most Blessed Trinity concerning which he thus speaketh The Diuinity is threefould as the three Persons be c. And from hence the reason may well be why Luther expungeth out of the Litany this verse Holy Trinity one very God haue mercy vpon vs. And hereupon he is not afraid to say that the word Trinity is but an humane inuention and soundeth coldly And finally he concludeth that his soule hateth the word Homousion or Consubstantiale For thus he writeth Anima me a odit Homousion Optimè exigerunt Ariani ne vocem illam prophanam nouam regulis fidei statuâ— liceret My very soule haâ—eth the word Homousion or Consubstantiale And the Arians not without reason required that it should not be lawfull to put this prophane and new Word meaning Homousios or consubstantialis among the rules of fayth Luthers blasphemy against the B. Trinity was such and so odious that euen Zwinglius did purposely write against Luther touching this very point 2. Touching the euent of things Luther houldeth contrary to all Christian faith that all things come to passe through a certaine Stoical and Fatal necessity for he defending this Heresy thus writeth Nullius est in manu c. It is in no mans power to thinke good or euil but al things as Wicleffs article condemned at Constance did rightly teach proceed from absolute Necessity And againe fateor articulum c. I do confesse Wicleffs article of all things comming to passe by Necessi 〈◊〉 to haue 〈◊〉 falsly condemned in the conuenticle of Constance 3. To the dishonour of Christ his Passion who was cloathed with Essentiall Maiesty and as intimating the insufficiency of it for the redemption of mankinde he teacheth that Christ not only suffered in body but also his Diuinity suffered for thus he writeth Cùm credo quod sola humana Natura pro me passa est Christus vilis noc magni praetij saluator est c. If I beleiue that only the Humane Nature of Christ suffered for me then is Christ a Sauiour but of a base and small worth and himselfe nedeth a Sauiour And Luther speaking of this point in an other place thus reprehendeth the Zwinglians The Zwinglians did contend against me most pertinaciously that the Diuinity of Christ could not suffer A doctrine so blasphemous as that it was not refuted only by the Zwinglians in Luthers dayes as himselfe confesseth but also euen by Beza such chaynes you see of blasphemies one stil following an other are wouen in Luthers faith and Religion 4. Touching the Administration of the Word and Sacraments Luther teacheth that al men and women also haue authority power to administer them These be his owne words The first office of a Priest is to preach the Word c. But this is common to al Next to baptize and this also al may do euen women c. The third office is to consecrate bread and wine But this also is common to al no lesse then Priests And this I auouch by the authoritie of Christ himselfe saying do this in remembrance of me This Christ speake to al then present and to come afterwards If then that which is greater then al be giuen indifferently to al Men and Women I meane the word and Baptisme then that which is lesse I meane to consecrate the supper is also giuen to them Thus Luther Yea Luther proceeded so farre herein as that as D. Couell witnesseth he was not afraid to affirme that the Sacraments were effectual though administred by Satan himselfe With D. Couell agreeth the Protestant Hospintan thus writing Lutherus â—o vsque progreditur c. Luther proceedeth so farre herein that he maintained the Sacrament to be a true Sacrament â—â—iamsi a Diabolo conficeretur though it were to be consecrated by the Deuil 5. For absolute deniall of tempor all Magistrats an Heresy indifferently condemned both by Catholicks and Protestants we finde Luther thus to write Among Christians no man can or ought to be a Magistrate But euery one is to other equally subiect c. And agayne As Christ cannot suffer himselfe to be tyed bound by lawes c. So also ought not the Conscience of a Christian to suffer them 6. Touching Luthers deniall of certayne parcels of Scripture And first the Epistle of S. Iames is called by Luther Contentious swelling strawy and vnworthy an Apostolicall spirit The booke of the Apocalyps is also reiected by Luther by the acknowledgment of Bullenger thus writing hereof Doctour Martin Luther hah as it were sticked this booke with a sharpe preface set before his first Edition in Duch for which his iudgment good and learned Men were offended with him Hereunto I will adde Luthers contempt of Moyses and some of the Apostles Against Moyses he thus writeth Habuit Moyses labia in faecunda irata c. And againe Moyses habuit labia diffusa felle ira Touching the Apostles he thus controuleth S. Peter S. Peter did liue and teach extra verbum Dei besides the word of God Thus we may see how no wynde was able to weigh downe the eares of Luthers pryde 7. Luther also taught an Heresy whereby the Propagation of Christian Religion is much endangered to wit That it was not lawfall to wage warre against the Turke an errour which enen the greatest Idolatours of Luther haue mainly condemned Luthers words are these Praeliari contra Turcas est repugnare Deo visitanti iniquitates nostras per illos To wage warre against the Turke is to resist God visiting our sinnâ—s by theÌ„ A point so confessed that Erasmus thus writeth of the consequence and effects of Luthers doctrine Many of the Saxons following herein that firct doctrine of Luther denyed to Caesar and King Ferdinand ayde against the Turke c. And said they had rather fight for a Turke not Baptized then for a Turke Baptized meaninge the Emperour Thus Erasmus 8. Touching Fayth and good workes Luther taught an Heresy disallowed by all learned Protestants For Luther teacheth as followeth It is impiety to affirme that fayth without Charity iustifyeth not Nay Luther proceedeth further thus writing Fides nisi sit sine c. Except fayth be without the least good works it doth not iustify nay it is not fayth And thereupon the more to debase good works he thus saith Works take their goodnes of the Worker Aud no worke is disallowed of God vnlesse the authour thereof be disallowed before Here now I end touching Luther Where you may perceaue Neuserus that this your Sunne of which you afore vaunted prooues to be but a fading Comet the fyery zeale you spoake of but a turbulent combustion seâ— on flame by Luther in subiects minds against all Christian Magistracy and the reflux which Luther as you pretend caused in the Church of Rome was instantly attended on with a flux and
Vnction He also beleiued the rites and Ceremonyes of the Masse as appeareth in his booke de Apostasiac 18. Touching his praying to our Blessed Lady he thus in feruour writeth Hic videtur miht quod impossibile est nospraemiari sine Mariae suffragio It seemeth impossible to me for any man to be rewarded without the suffrage or prayers of Mary He acknowledged the worship of Relicks Images of which he thus saith Ador aneus imagines vnde signa c. conceditur it aque quòd reliquae Imagines c. sunt cum prudentia ador andae We worship Images as signes c. Therfore it is granted that relickes Images c. are to be worshipped with prudence Touching Merit of Works and works of Supererogation Wicklefe was so forward in defence thereof that Stow thus writeth of him Wicklefe and his disciples went in course russet garments downe to the heeleâ— seemed to contemne all temporall goods for the loue of eternall riches adiayned himselfe to the begging fryars approouing their pouerty and extolling their perfection He thus teaching with the Catholicks that a Religious and voluntary pouerty is the greatest abundance Besides these his seuerall Catholicks doctrines He defended diuers grosse Herefyes He first taught that all things came to passe by an absolute and stoicall Necessity He condemned lawfull Oathes sauoring as Osiander saith of Anabaptisms Touching Ecclesiasticall persons thus writeth Melancthon of Wicklefe Wicklefus contendit presbiteris non licere vt possideant quicquam proprium Wicklefe mantayneth that it is not lawfull for Priests to possesse any thing in propriety He further taught euen by the acknowledgment of M. Fox the Canonizer of the Pseudomartyrs of his Religion that if a Bishop or a Priest be in deadly sinne he doth not order consecrato or baptize Which point is also verifyed of Wicklefe by Osiander Furthermore Wicklefe did not only ascribe with Catholicks merit to works done in state of grace but he was so passionatly resolute herein as that as Waldensis witnesseth he taught merit of works done by force of nature with the Pelagians Finally Wicklefe taught that there is no Ciuill magistrate while he is in mortall sinne and this so grosly that Melancthon thus censureth him De Domino ciuili sophisticè planè seditiose vixatur Wicklefe disputeth of the ciuill magistrate sophistically and seditiously And according to this his doctrine in speculation his followers in great numbers did rise against the King And for such their treason diuers of them were apprehended and executed But to contract this point touching the Heresyes of Wicklefe This matter is so euident and confessed by diuers learned Protestants as that Pantaleon a Protestant placeth Wicklefe in the Catalogue of Hereticks thus writing Iohannes Wicklefus cum Lolhardis in Anglia suam Haeresim praedicat Iohn Wicklefe diâ—â—lgeth with the Lolhards his Heresy in England And Melancthon thus writeth in generall of him I haue found in Wicklefe many errours wherby a Man may iudge of his spirit Finally M. Fox though at other times gracing him with the title of a Protestant confesseth That VVicklefe vsed often for feare of persecution and danger to dissemble his Religion Which no man in the iudgment both of Catholicke and Protestant professing any conscience can lawfully do Thus much touching Wicklefe OCHINVS M. Doctour I must confesse euen betweene God and my conscience that hitherto the Vessell from whence you haue drawne all your former wine I meane examples of Protestancy is not good and pure But I hope we shall haue reason to say in regard of your other more conuincing Instances hereafter to follow with the cheife steward of the feast in the Gospell Thou hast kept the good wine vntill now But howsoeuer it is Truth is not so feeble as to be forced to leaue for it owne supporting vpon the cruches of any one mans ability NEVSERVS Truly hitherto the Examples of protestancy are insufficient for how can they be reputed Protestants who not only maintayne the most articles of the Romish Religion but also do pertinaciously iustify diuers confessed Heresyes Neuerthelesse I doubt not but Ochinus and my selfe shal be able to proue that the Protestant Church was enriched at all tymes with many of the faythfull though not alwayes it was so gloriously subiect to the eyes of others But M. D. what do you say to the tymes precedent to the former For we are most willing that Michaeas should haue good satisfaction giuen him herein D. REYNOLDS I say that in those tymes florished not two or three but many hundred Protestants For then liued VValdo from whom as from a most worthy stemme his branches the VValdenses are descended All which both the father and the Sonns euen in the iudgment of M. Fox were perfect Protestants In those tymes also were the Albigenses confessed for good Protestants Also the Henricians or Apostolici Peter Bruts learned Almericus and diuers others liued about those dayes Indeede there were so many Protestants in those tymes as I am partly troubled where to beginne to reckon them but may here say with the Poet Inopem me copia fecit MICHAEAS Thus M. D. are but ostentations And I see that saying verifyed in you Many through loue do hurt themselfs For you through your ouer much affecting to preserue the honour of your Church do indeed by prostituting diuers Pseudoprotestants indignify your Church For all these whom you now haue alledged are merely Excentrous as I may tearme them irregular Sectaries their doctrines indiffereÌ„tly mouing about the Poles of Catholicke Religion Protestancy Sensuality And first touching Waldo It is certaine that he was a Lay-man of Lyons in France vnlearned but rich and gaue money for the translating of the Scripture into his owne vulgar toÌ„gue Of him the Waldenses are deriued about the yeare 1218. Now that neither Waldo nor the VValdenses his followers were Protestants though they be much vrged for such by many Protestants is seuerall wayes prooued First in that they did still hould diuers Catholicke points as the Reall presence in the Blessed Sacrament of whom concerning the same point Caluin thus writeth Formula Confessionis c. The forme of the Confession of the Waldenses doth inuolue all those in eternall damnation who do not confesse that the breade is become truly the body of Christ They also maintayned seauen Sacraments the doctrine of Vowes of single life and of Purgatory with all which doctrines Benedictus Morgenstrensis a Lutheran chargeth the Waldenses and reprehendeth them for the same Lastly they were so full in defending the doctrine of merit of works as that as D. Humfrey writeth of VValdo He did forsake all things that being poore he might follow Christ the Euangelicall Perfections And in the end it did so faule out that his schollers and disciples were an Order of begging Fryars and commonly called the Poore Men of
sheepfould but clymeth another way is a theife I now demand M. Doctour who did call Luther Hus Wicklefe c. to preach the word and administer the Sacraments Or by whom were they sent D. REYNOLDS I here answere with Caluin Beza and D. Fulke that they had extraordinary calling immediatly from God in reguard of the Popes tiranny in those dayes and the ouerflowing of superstition of those tymes MICHAEAS This is but extrauagantly spoken and merely forged by you Protestants M. D. as hauing no other colour to warrant your calling But to refute this phantasy Extraordinary calling is euer accompanyed as it was in the Apostles with working of miracles euen by the iudgment of the Protestants theÌ„selfe Among whom Luther thus expostulateth others of their extraordinary calling saying Vnde venis quis te 〈…〉 isâ—◠〈…〉 isunt 〈…〉 que is a Deo missum esse testantur See how by Gods prouidence Luthers penne turneth vpon himselfe And therefore D. Bilsâ—n as wholy reiecting all extraordinary Calling not warranted with Miracles thus confesseth They can haue no part of Apostolicall Commission who haue no shew of Apostolicall succession Thus then Luther Huâ— Wicklefe and the rest are exempted from all extraordinary Calling immediatly by God himselfe since their Calling was neuer confirmed with the working of any one miracle euen in the iudgment of D. Fulke whose words are these It is knowne that Caluin and the rest whom Papists call Archhereticks do worke no Miracles D. REYNOLDS Some learned Protestants to wit D. Whitakers D. Bridges and others do auerre that it is not improbable to affirme that Wicklefe Hus Luther c. receaued their calling from the Church of Rome Which calling was conferred vpon them before their departure out of that Church Which opinion of theirs admitting it for true taketh away the supposed difficulty of this your Argument MICHAEAS Neuer M. D. doth the poore and fearefull hayre vse before the hounds more windings and turnings to saue her life then you Protestants do here to salue your Vocation for you being here stabled to get your selfe out of the myre sometymes affirme your calling to be extraordinary and immediate from God warranted by him with certaine Euthusiasms forsooth and illuminations But when the vanity of that pretext is layd open then you fly to the Catholicke Roman Church making it your Sanctuary But see with what an absurdity this your later Answere is accompanyed For besides that Walde as being a Layman neuer receaued any calling from thence Why do you and others most contumeliously call the Roman Church Antichristian seing it seemes you confesse that it is able to conferre true Calling to Luther Hus and the rest and to their successours or descendents which ability and power is peculiar only to the true Church For if the Pope be Antichrist and his Church Antichristian as your Brethren in their pulpitts do vociferate then how can you pretend their Calliâ—g to be sufficient and warrantable seing your owne men teach that in Babylon meaning thereby the Church of Rome there is no holy Order or Ministery indeed but a mere vsurpation And most certaine it is and confessed by all learned Men that Antichrist cannot auaylably confer commission for the Preaching of the Word of Christ and admitting the Sacraments of Christ Now if Luther Hus Wicklefe and the rest do want true calling then they cannot be any true visible Pastours of Christs Church and consequently they cannot iustify in themselfs their Churches visibility So plunged we see you Protestants are when you are demanded to iustify the calling of Luther Hus Wicklefe and their successours And thus far now Learned Men to demonstrate that supposing Waldo Wicklefe Hus Luther and the rest instanced in your precedent passages had bene in all points of beliefe Protestants that they had otherwise neyther comparted with the Catholicks in any Catholicke doctrines nor had defended any grosse and acknowledged Heresyes yet it is most euident in reguard of the Reasons and arguments here alledged that the examples of them are defectiue and insufficient to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church in that manner as the visibility of Christs Church is taught both by Catholicke and Protestant and peculiarly by our selfs according to the beginning of this our disputation OCHINVS With M. Doctour good leaue who hath showed great reeding in his former examples though they be not so conuincing and pregnant as I did hope to find them Neuserus and I will vndertake to iustify the visibility of our Protestant Church in all precedent ages And you are heare Learned Michaeas to know I am of opinion that supposing no instances at all of Protestancy could be giuen for all these former tymes by you mentioned yet followeth it not that therefore there were no Protestants in those tymes which is only the Question betweene vs for many Reasons may be giuen why the names of such Professours are not now knowne to vs of these dayes And one Reason may be this you know well the Popes for many ages haue borne more then a serpentine malice to the Protestant Religion euer endeuouring by all meanes possible to extirpate it out Therefore my iudgment is that their rage and fury was so precipitate and violent agaynst the Protestants of formes ages as they labored by all courses to extinguish all remembrance of them as by burning the books written in those tymes by Protestants by purposely making away of all other Records of Protestancy and by an absolute concealing the names of all Protestants thus hoping that the Memory of them might be interred with their Bodyes This is my opinion I meane that there neuer was an vtter disparition and vanishing away of the Protestant Church in auncient tymes but only that the names and Professours of that Church were most diligently concealed from all after tymes through the Popes affected malignity MICHAEAS It is strange to obserue the exhorbitant proceeding of Protestants in matters of Religion For sometimes you Protestants do diuulge in your wrytings that there can be named Protestants liuing in euery Century since Christ as you M. D. in the frontispice of this discourse with great venâ—itation did vndertake to performe Now you retyre backe Ochiâ—â—s from M. D. assertion and say doubtlesly there were Protestants in all ages though their names and memoryes by some indirect course or other were concealed from Posterity So distracted you are in your owne iudgements passed vpon one and the same point at seuerall tymes Which certainly must be reputed as a Moale in the face of a learned man since now zealously to affect an opinion at another tyme to let the same saulle by entertayning the contrary opinion is but the Ague of an irresolute and inconstant iudgement But to come to the point First I say that this euasion of Ochinus mainly ouerthwarteth M. Dâ—â—tours former Instances For if the names of all Protestants were buried in forgetfulnes by the Popes
serue only to bleare for the tyme the impenetrating and weake eyes of the ignorant do in the closure of all both by certaine necessary inferences as also in playne and expresse tearmes grant the point here controuerted to wit that the Protestant Church hath for many ages togeather bene wholy inuisible and not knowne to any one man liuing or rather that during such said ages it hath bene vtterly ouerthrowne destroyed and as it were annihilated and no such Church in being The proofe of which point shal be the subiect of this passage This point then is prooued two wayes and both from the penns of the Protestants First from their acknowledged want of succession of Pastours and of their like defect of sending by ordinary Calling Secondly from their manifest open complaints of their Churches inuisibility for former ages in expresse words or rather of it vtter extinction Nullity And as touching the first It is euident euen in reason it selfe that that Church which wanteth succession of Pastours ordinary Calling if any such Church could be must needes be inuisible at least at that tyme when such want is And the reason hereof is because this want necessarily presupposeth that there were not in that supposed Church any former Predecessours or Pastours at all which could conferre authority or calling to the succeding Pastours or Preachers But where no Pastours are there are no sheepe for it is written how shall they heare without a Preacher And where no sheepe are there is no Church And where is no Church there is no visisibility of it since euen Logicke instructeth vs that Non Eutis â—â—n est Accidens That the Protestant Church for many ages hath wanted all personall succession and ordinary Calling is ouereuident seeing besides that which hath bene sayd of this point already we find diuers learned Protestants to confesse no lesse For thus doth Sadellius write Diuers Protestants affirme that the Ministers with them are destitute of lawfull Calling as not hauing a continuall visible succession from the Apostles tymes which they do attribute only to the Papists And hence it is that many Protestants confesse that they are forced to flye to Extraordinary Calling which is immediatly from God without any help of man Thus for example Caluin saith Quia Papae tyrannide c. Because through the tyrannâ— of the Pope true succession of Ordination was broken off therefore we stand neede of a new course herein and this function or Calling was altogether extraorinary Thus Caluin And D. Fulke in like manner sayth The Protestants that first preached in these dayes had extraordinary Calling with whom agreeth D. Parkins saying The calling of Wâ—cklefe Hus Luther Oecolampadius Peter Martyr c. was extraordinary Thus we see that the Protestants confessing the want of personall succession in their Church as also the want of Ordinary Vocation and flying therefore to Extraordinory Vocation do euen by such their Confessions acknowledge withall the Inuisibility of their Church in those tymes and an interruption next before of all personall succession for if succession of Pastours had then bene really truly in being then had those men bene visible to whom the Authority of calling others to the Ministery had appertayned and consequently there had bene no need of Extraordinary Calling Which Extraordinary Calling is euer accompayned with Miracles as aboue is showed in the iudgments of the more sober Protestants or otherwise it is but a meere illusion And we haue not red or heard that any of those first Protestants who vendicated to themselues this Extraordinary Calling haue euer wrought in confirmation eyther of their Calling or doctrine any one Miracle OCHINVS I must confesse Michaeas that you haue discussed well of this poynt and in my iudgment very forcingly But proceed we intreate you to the second branch of your Proofe since I can hardly belieue that any Protestants will expresly acknowledge the Inuisibility of their owne Church for if they do then is the Question at an end and hath receaued it vttermost tryall that can be imagined MICHAEAS The euent will seale the truth of this point And first that immediatly before Luthers reuolt the Protestant Church was inuisible Vibanus Regius a markable Protestant confesseth so much But of the Protestant Church it visibility at Luthers appearance we haue already fully discoursed and therefore we will ascend to higher times M. Parkins then thus writeth of ages more remote We say that before the day of Luther for the space of many hundred yeares an vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth and that our Church was not then visible to the world Caelius Secundus Curio an eminent Protestant confesseth no lesse in these words Factum est vt per multos i am annos Ecclesia latuerit ciuesque hutus regni vix ab alijs ac ne vix quidem agnosci potuerint c. It is brought to passe that the Church for many yeares hath bene latent and that the Cittizens of this Kingdome could scarsely and indeed not as all be knowne of others D. Fulke confesseth more particularly of this point saying The Church in the tyme of Bonifacâ— the third which was anno 607. was inuisible and fleed into wildernes there to remayne a long season M. Napper riseth to higher tymes thus wrytinge God hath withdrawne his visible Church from open assemblyes to the harts of particular godly men c. during the space of twelue hundred and sixty yeares the true Church abiding latent and inuisible With whome touching the continuance of this Inuisibility agreeth M. Brocard an English Protestant But M. Napper is not content with the latency of the Protestant Church for the former tymes only but inuolueth more ages therein thus auerâ—ing During euen the second and third Ages meaning after Christ the true Church of God and light of the Gospell was obscured by the Roman Antichrist hymselfe But Sebastianus francus a most remarkable Protestant ouerstripeth hearein all his former Brethren not doubting to comprehend within the said Inuisibility all the ages since the Apostles thus wryting for certaine the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure And that for these thousand and foure hundred yeares marke the lenght of the tyme the Church hath beene no wâ—eare externall and visible Which acknowledgement of so longe a tyme or rather longer is likewise made by D. Fulke in these words The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tyme. But D. Downham with whom I will heare conclude is not ashamed to insimulate the very tymes of the Apostles within the lyke latency thus wrytinge The generall defection of the visible Church foretouâ—d 2. Thessal 2. begunne to worke in the Apostles tymes Good God Would any Man hould it possible were it not that their owne books are yet extant that such eminent Protestants should confesse
we shall losse you so soone Only I would entreate you to haue in your discourses wheresoeuer you shall hereafter come a tender and gentill touch of the Protestant Church of all the true and constant members thereof And herewith Worthy Michaeas I take my last farewell MICHAEAS M. Doctour of your selfe I will euer speake answerably to your desarts Nobly and with great respect Since you are a Man whose barke is richly fraught with learning Morality And what defects haue bene committed by you in this dispute I do wholy ascribe them to your want of a good cause not to your want of good parts And if there haue bene any words misplaced by vs on eyther syde sâ—t the thought of them vanish away since they were spoken Antagonisticeâ— and in heaâ—e of disputation And so in all kindnes Christian charity I leaue you with this my aduise that you will not aduenture your saluation vpon your owne priuate conscience preferring it before the Iudgement and conscience of the vniuersall visible Catholicke Church As for you two fagotts of Hell-fire I grant my eyes euen sparkle forthâ—râ—ge in behoulding of you And I account contrary to the place of the burning bush the place wherin you stand to be cursed ground â—or since your Sunne is so fâ—rie of you I meane your excepted false Messias what can you looke but for a winter of could dispayre and damnation Therefore I will take leaue with you in the phraze of the Apostle to Elymas the Magitian and what greater Magicke then for one to be enchaâ—ted to beleiue that Christ is a seâ—ucer O you full of all subtilty and mischeife the Sonns of the Deuill enemyes of all iustice who cease not to peruert the right wayes of our Lord Adieu OCHINVS You enioy Michaeas the liberty of your Tongue but â—age you well NEVSERVS Let him go I will nor take leaue with him such opprobrious speeches he vseth against vs. OCHINVS Now M. Doctour Michaeas is gonne And now we haue the more freedome of speech among our selfs without feare of being ouerheard I know that not only yonder black-mouthd Michaeas but your selfe also rest much disedisyed at our abâ—enunciation of Christianity But M. Doctour come to the point We see the Prophecyes of the old Testament which must euer remayne sacred permanent and 〈…〉 uiolable do shew that the Church of God in the dayes of the Messias must euer be visible knowne and conspicuous and must in all ages without any intermission enioye a publicke and externall administration of the Word and Sacraments And this is abundantly confessed not only by vs all in the front of this our disputation but by all learned men whosoeuer We now notwithstanding such necessity therof cannot but confesse that the accomplishment of the sayd Prophecyes hath not bene effected in the Church of Christ at leâ—st in the Protestant Church how then can the Church of Christ be that true Church of the Messias which is so gloriously deliueaâ—ed with the penalls of the Prophets Now what other resultancy can be out of the premises then that the Church of Christ as wanting the fulfilling of the former diuine Oracles is not the true Church of God and consequently that Christ is the true Messias Sauiour of the World except we will grant which I neuer will the Papists Church as hauing by relation of Michaeas the Prophecies performed in it to be the sole Church of God Therefore so farre as toucheth my selfe I do renounce my former Christian fayth and will embrace the auncient Law of Moyses and as intending to be seruiceable to that Religion I will teach the doctrine of Circumcision and will instantly write a booke of the lawfulnes of Polygamie or plurality of Wyues aunciently practized by the â—ewes in the old Testament though now by Christians houlden as vnlawfull and altogether proâ—â—ibited NEVSERVS By the Lord of Heauen I cannot see how this difficulty can otherwyse be salued then either by denyinge the Gospell of the New Testament or by granting the Church of Rome to be the true Church which my Soule abhorrs to do For as concerning the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church It cannot be made good notwistanding our great ventitation thereof afore in our Words And therefore it were honesty in vs now in the end to pull of our Visards through which wee spooke to Michaeas and plainly confese the truth herein And here M. D. to take a short view of all the discours passed and to examine it impartially a monge our selfs We cannot but obserue that the Exemples produced by you were most insufficient first because they were no Protestants at all Secondly in that admitting them for Protestants they but only serue as Michaeas well noted to iustify the Visibility of Protestants only for those tymes neither you nor wee being able to produce but only for for me sake any one confessed Example of Protestancy for the space of six hundred yeers at the least Againe when Ochinus and my selfe perceaued that no true instances of Protestancy could be giuen I grant we vsed diuers euasions and inflexious to and froe and all for the sauing of our Churches honour As first to pretend though God knowes a silly pretence that all Relations and testimonyes of Protestants in former ages were by the Popes industry and tyranny vtterly extinct That fayling then we made show for in our priuat iudgments we could not really thinke it That the Protestants in former tymes were forced to lye secret and latent in regard of the supposed then raging Persecution That playne answere not seruinge then we thought good to inuolue and roule our said euasion touchinge Persecution in a certaine obscure and darke sentence to wit That the Church was in the Papacy the Papacy in the Church and yet the Church was not the Papacy a forme of words as Michâ—as truly â—â—id forged by vs Protestants only to cast a â—yst in the eyes of the vnlearned The next we fled for our surest but indeed sham full refuge vnto the Scripture pretending our Church to be consonant to it and therefore euer visible a cours which indifferently lyeth open to euery Heretyke After all which if you remember M. D. your selfe did politikly touch vpoÌ„ that opinion though not with any greate approbation of it which for sauing our Church from it vtter ruine teacheth that the Papists Church and Ours are all one But did you marke how Michaeas neuer ceased till he had ferretted vs out of all our former Connyhoales be in the end irrephably and choakingly prouing from our owne learned Mens penns the mayne question now controuerted among vs Now M. D. seeing I am irrefragably resolued not to admit the Papists Church for the true Church though perhapps it hath enioyed the fulfilling of the forementioned Prophecyes I do therefore conspyre in iudgment herein with Ochinus and ame determined to haue this Country from whence I will retyre myselfe into the Palatinate where
Work A matter so euident and confessed by our aduersaryes as that D. Fulke thus exprobrateth the Catholicks in these words You can name the notable personages in all ages obserue these words in all ages and their gouerment and ministery and especially the succession of the Popes you can rehearse in order and vpon your fingars Thus D. Fulke 3. Thirdly We prooue the former assertion of our Catholicke Church its Visibility during the first six hundred years after Christ and consequently during the whole period of the Primatiue Church by taking a view in generall how the cheife auncient Fathers of those tymes are pryzed and entertayned by the Protestants who indeed dispensing with all Ceremonyes herein do absoluâ—ly reiect them as inexcusable and grosse Papists For as for these last thousand yeares It is acknowledged by all Protestant whosoeuer that our Church hath bene most visible tyrannyzing they say ouer the true Church for so many ages And according hereto M Powell sayth From the yeare of Christ six hundred and fyue the professed company of Popery hath been very visible and conspicuous But to proceede If the most auncient most reuerend Fathers of the Primatiue Church I meane Ignatius Dionysius Areopagita Iustinus Ireneus Tertulâ—an Origen Cyprian Athanasius Hilarius the Cyrills the Gregoryes Ambrose Basill Optatus Gaudentius Chrysostome Ierome Austin and diuers others be accounted by our aduersaryes most earnest Professours of our Catholicke and Roman fayth then followeth it ineuitably that our Catholicke Church was most conspicuous in those dayes since those Fathers were then the visible Pastours of the Church and then consequently the Church whereof they were Pastours must needs be visible That these primatiue Fathers were Papists as our Aduersaryes tearme vs appeareth euidently out of these few confessions here following which for breuity I haue discerped out of the great store of like acknowledgments of this point occurring in our aduersaryes bookes And first Peter Martyr thus confesseth of this point As long as we insist in the Fathers so long we shal be conuersant in their errours Beza thus insulteth ouer the Fathers Euen in the best tymes meaning the tymes of the Primatiue Church the ambition ignorance and lewdnes of the Bishopps was such as the very blind may easily perceaue that Satan was president in their Assemblyes or Conncells D. Whitguift thus conspireth with his former Brethren How greatly were almost all the Bishops and learned wryters of the Greeke Church Latin also for the most part spotted with doctrines of freewill of merit of Innocation of Saints and such like meaning such like Catholicke doctrines Melancthon is no lesse sparing in taxing the Fathers who thus confesseth Presently from the beginning of the Church that is presently after Christ his Ascension the auncient Fathers obscured the doctrine concerning the Iustice of Fayth increased ceremonyes and deuised peculiar Worshipps But Luther himselfe shall end this Scene who most securiously traduceth the Fathers in these words The Fathers for so many ages meaning after the Apostles haue bene blind and most ignorant in the Scriptures They haue erred all their lifetyme and vnlesse they were amended before their deaths they were neither Saincts nor pertayning to the Church Thus Luther And thus much touching the Fathers of the Primatiue Church being professours of our present Catholicke Fayth and Church and consequently that our Catholicke Church was most uisible and florishing in those primatiue tymes 4. Fourthly The former inexpug 〈…〉 verity is proued from that the Church of Rome neuer suffered change in fayth since it first plantation by the Apostles Now if the Church of Rome neuer suffered chauge in Religion if it hath euer continued a Church since the Apostles dayes and lastly if at this day it professeth our present Catholicke fayth then followeth it demonstratiuely that there were visible Professours of our Catholicke fayth in the Church of Rome euer since the Apostles and consequently that our Catholicke Church hath euer bene uisible since those tymes To proue that the Church of Rome neuer brooked change of fayth since the Apostles dayes I referre you to the first former Dialogue of the Conuerted Iew. 5. Fiftly and lastly our foresaid Assertion is acknowledged for true vndoubred euen from the penns of our learned Aduersary who most frequently in their wrytings do intimate so much And here I am to craue pardon if I iterate some few testimonies and acknowledgments of Protestants aboue produced in this Dialogue Which as they there did prooue an inuisibility of the Protestant Church in those former Ages so here also diuers of them prooue so neerely do these two points interueyue the one the other a continuall visibility of our Catholicke Church during the said tymes To come then to these confessions of the Protestants in this point touching the euer visibility of the Catholicke Church I will ascend vp by degrees euen to and within the Apostles dayes And this because some Protestants as lesse ingenuous and vpright in their writings do affoard to our Catholicke Church a shorter tyme or Period of visibility then others of their more learned and well-meaning Brethren are content to allow First then M Parkins thus sayth During the space of nyne hundred yeares the Popish Heresy hath spreed it selfe ouer the whole earth This point is further made cleere from the Penns of the Centurists and Osiander all which do in euery of the Centuryes from S. Gregories tyme to Luther name and record all the Popes 〈◊〉 cheyfe Catholicke Bishops and diuers others professing our Catholicke fayth according to the Century or age wherin eich of them liued But to ascende higher M. Nappier confesseth of a longer tyme thus saying The Popes Kingdome hath had power ouer all Christians from the tymes of Pope Sâ—luester and the Emperour Constantyn for these thousand two hundred and sixtie yeares And also againe from the tyme of Constantyn vntill theese our dayes euen one thousand two hundred and sixty yeres the Pope and the Cleargy hath possessed the outward visible Church of Christians But M. Napper in an other place dealeth more bountifully with vs herein for thus he witnesseth During euen the second and third ages the true temple of God and light of the Gospell was obscured by the Roman Antichrist Sebastianus Francus alloweth the Visibility of our Church from the tyme immediatly after the Apostles thus wrytinge Presently after the Apostles tymes all things were turned vpsyde downe c. And for certaine through the worke of Antichrist the external Church together with their fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure With this Protestant D Fulke conspireth thus saying The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tymes Which being spoken by him of the Protestant Church then may we infer that the Church of Rome and it fayth as presumed to be by the iudgment of this Doctour the false Church was visible immediatly
after the Apostles With D. Fulke agreeth Peter Martyr thus writing Errours did beginne in the Church presently after the Apostles tymes Peter Martyr heere vnderstanding by the word Errours our Catholycke doctrins with these three last Protestants the Authour of the booke called Antichristus siue pronosticon finis Mundi a Protestant thus iumpeth from the Apostles tymes till Luther the Gospell had neuer open passage Now this hinderance of the Gospell is supposed by hym to proceede from the Pope and Church of Rome therefore during all those tymes the Church of Rome hath beene visible But D Downham confesseth more freely herof who doth include the very tymes of the Apostles with in the Visibility of the Catholycke Roman Church thus teaching the generall defection of the Visible Church foretould 2. Thessol 2. begunne to worke in the Apostles tymes he meaning hereby that the Visibility of our Catholicke Church did obscure in the Apostles dayes the Visibility of his Protestant Church From this Doctours sentence Hospinian the Protestant litle dissenteth who speaking of the Sacrament of the Eucharist thus writeth I am tum primo illo saeculo viuentibus adhuc apostolis c. Euen the very first age the Apostles being aliue the deuill endeuored to deceaue more about this Sacrament then aboute Baptisme with drawing Men from the first forme thereof Thus iudicious Men you may fully see how visible at all tymes our Catholyâ—ke Church hath beene And of this Veritie you may be more fully assured not only by fiction from the discourse of Michaeas the Conuerted Iew but euen from Michaeas The Prophetical Iew Whose praediction of the amplitude and euer conspiâ—uitie of Christs Church and consequently of our Catholycke Church is set downe in these words In nouissimo di erum erit mons domus Domini praeparatus in vertice montium sublimis super colles fluent ad cum Populi Et properabunt gentes multae dicent Venite ascendamus ad montem Domini ad domum Dei Iacob docebit nos de vijs suis at ibimus in semitis â—ius Which Prophecy as it hath beene hitherto fully accomplished in the present Roman Church so on the other syde how vnaptly indeed how falsly it can be applyed to a Conuenticle of Christians which is confessed for many more yeres then a thousand to haue bene wholy latent and Inuisible or rather vtterly extinguished I leaue to your Candour and impartialitie to censure But before I take my leaue with you for this tyme most excellent Men I will cast my eye back vpon the Premisses in grose discussed in this Treatise Yf then it be so as is aboue manifested that the Church of God must at all tymes be resplendent and visible If she must euer enioy the administration of the Word and Sacraments by the ministery of her Doctours and Pastours without any interruption and this with such an imposed Necessity as that the being of them constituteth a Church the want of them destroyeth it Yf we all be bownd vnder payne of eternall damnation to incorporate our selfs into that Church which is beutifyed and enriched with the former spirituall endowments and to auoyde all such Societyes of Men wherein they are wanting seing only the members of Christs true Church are capable of Saluation Yf finally our Catholycke and Roman Church on the one syde by the frequent Confessions of our learned Aduersaryes besids oll other proofs thereof hath alwayes enioyed the said priuiledges of Visibility and administration of the Word and Sacraments And the Protestant Church on the other syde euen by their owne lyke acknowledgments hath bene for many Centuryes and ages wholy distitute and depryued of these spirituall graces and as I may tearme them Immunityes What stupor then and dulnes of mynd or rather what Letargious constitution of the Soule forgetfull of it owne well fare possesseth so infinit Men at this day as to deuyde themselfs from our said Catholycke Church euen in greate hostility and in lien thereof to be ranged with particular and nouelizing Conuenticles The consideration whereof most iudicious Men though I looke not to be of that weigh with you as to moue you actually to implant your selfs in our Catholicke Church yet since you are wyse learned and loth no dowbt to commit any such explorate errours as the force of Naturall Reason and your owne Consciences may freely check I am in good hope that the serious perusall of the poynts aboue disputed will at least preuayle thus far with diuers of you as that you will not be ready hereafter in your discourses so tragically to enueigh and declame against a Religion which is fortyfied which such impugnable and irrefragable proufs as our Catholycke fayth euen from our owne Aduersaryes mouths is euicted to bee But that you being Men professing Conscience Integrity and Ingenuity will beare a more fauorable respecte to the said religion And herewith I will conclude recommending you all in my daily prayers vnto him who out of his Power and Goodnes created vs all and out of his Mercy dyed for vs all to the end that by our professing of a true fayth and exercizing of a vertuâ—us lyfe he might saue vs all seing otherwise we can no more auaylably expect eternall Beatitude then the Patriarchs dying in Egypt could hope to be buried in the Laude of Promisse Laus Deo Beatae Virgini Mariae AN APPENDIX WHEREIN IS TAKEN A SHORT VIEW CONTAINING A FVLL ANSWERE OF A PAMPHLET ENTITVLED A Treatise of the Perpetuall Visibility and succession of the true Church in all Ages Printed anno 1624. CVRTEOVS READER Thou mayst be aduertized hereby that not long since to wit in the yeare 1624. there came out a certaine Booke entituled A Treatise of the perpetuall Visibility and succession of the true Church in all Ages not subscribed with any Name The reason thereof belike was in that the Authour as guilty to himselfe of his impure proceeding therein durst not iustify neyther himselfe nor this his labour Though the entituling him in the Epistle to the Reader which seemes to be written by some other person then the Authour The most Reuerend Religious and painfull Authour thereof c. doth in the iudgment of many intimate him to be no meane Man but a great mayster in Israel to wit eyther D. White or D. Featly or some other as great as eyther To this concealing of them of the Authours name who as being a Protestant might boldly and without danger subscribe his owne name to his owne Booke farre differently from vs Priests I may ad the Authours affected silence through out his whole Treatise in not touching neither glancing at the then late and fresh Conference had at London euen of this very Subiect of the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages betweene the afore mentioned D White and D. Featly on the one part and M. Fisher and M. Sweete on the other This Authour not so much
this Authour is set downe aboue in the first part or beginning of the former Dialogue Thirdly admitting that by the Woman is vnderstood the Church in Persecution yet followeth it not that therefore she shal be inuisible which is the point for which it is vrged here seing a Church in that it is persecuted euen in that respect is become visible as is proued in the Treatise aboue though otherwise it be granted it is not so gloriously eminent as it is in tyme of prosperity Now whereas the Authour pag. 29. from the Woman mentioned in the Reuelations flying into Wildernes thus disputeth The true Church is for the tyme out of sight in the Wildernes But so say they meaning vs Catholicks was their Church neuer Therefore Will they Will they their Church is not the true Church Here Ignorance mixt with extreme boldnes disputeth For whereas Learned Men both Catholicks Protestants as appeareth in the former Treatise make a continuall Visibility to be a Marke of the true Church Here the Authour diametrically crossing all former Authorityes aboue alleadged teacheth that that Church which euer hath beene visible and neuer out of sight to vse his owne words cannot be the true Church and consequently that the Catholicke Roman Church is not the true Church Thus he contrary to all other authours maketh an Inuisibility to be a necessary Marke of the true Church Ad hereto as afore is intimated that if in this Pamphleters iudgment the true Church must sometymes euen of necessity be out of sight and in Wildernes or otherwise not the true Church how then doth not this mainly feight with the tytle of his Booke to wit Of the perpetuall Visibility and Succession of the true Church in all ages And why should not the tytle thereof rather be Of the interrupted and discontinued Visibility of the true Church And thus farre of the first part of this Pamphlet in which we see how painfully the Authour hath labored sometymes to prooue that the Church of God must at certaine seasons be more glorious and resplendent then at others though no Catholicke denyeth this and therefore the prouffe of it is but impertinently vndertaken At other tymes as in his last produced sentence and argument as also in some passages aboue cyted to prooue that the true Church must be often wholy inuisible plainly thwarting the Inscription of his booke But his affected calumny here whereby he bewrayes his owne guiltines in these his vnworthy Scripts is only to prefix this discourse of the Churches obscurity or rather Inuisibility that it may serue as an excuse and for a plastering ouer of those few weake and false examples of Protestancy in former ages alledged after in this Pamphlet by him For he hopeth that by this his former insinuation of the Churches obscurity the Reader will lesse expect any full demonstrations and certaine arguments of the Protestants Churches Visibility in former tymes and the rather seing such an vnterrupted visibility is not in this Mans weening necessary to the true Church Now here we will further tract this Authour in his passages who whether he be D. White or D. Fearly or some other next beginneth with extraordinary calumnye deceate to exemplify his Protestants for certaine ages For whereas he ought to prooue euen from the Title of his Booke and the Controuersy of the Protestants Churches visibility now ventilated betweene vs and his Partye that the Protestant Church seeing he presumeth it to be the true Church hath bene visible for the space of sixteene hundred yeares for so long since and more it is since our Sauiours Incarnation he produceth examples admitting them for true only for foure hundred yeres at the most and immediatly before Luther so leauing one thousand and one hundred yeres and more a small tyme you see wholy destituted of any one produced example of Protestancy he saluing this his omission or leauing ouer these eleuen hundred yeres in this manner following What the old Fathers taught meaning the Fathers of the Primatiue Church as being Protestants we haue tyme hereafter to show which time of his showing what they taught is not yet come And of the supposed Protestants betweene the Primatiue Church and the tymes of Waldo he ascending no higher then Waldo being about six hundred yeares he vseth this preterition We shall not need to ascend any higher meaning any higher from Luther then to Waldo Which otherwise to make playne is as easy as to deliuer that which hitherto I haue spoken And it is not to be conceaued that Petrus Waldo of whome the Waldenses did take their name at Lyons had his doctrine from no body c. Is not this a very learned satisfaction thinke you or rather a satisfaction vnworthy to proceede from any Man professing learning for instancing of the being of Protestants from Christ his tyme to the dayes of Waldo contayning about twelue hundred yeres or but little lesse for all which tyme he instanceth not in any one Protestant but wholy slips it ouer notwithstanding the Catholicks euer earnest prouoking of the Protestants herein Or can any impartiall iudgment demanding for instances of Protestancy during all or any of those former ages rest thus contented Heere then good Reader thou seest how this Authour abuseth thee who dealeth with thee herein no otherwise then if he iustly and truly owing thee Sixteene hundred pounds should in speeches vauntingly pretend that he had payed thee euery penny thereof And yet he comming to particular accounts and reckonings with thee should be able to prooue that he had payed thee and this also but in counterfeyt siluer only foure hundred pounds affirming in lieu of further payment that he would be as able to pay thee all the rest as he hath already done this lesser Somme Wouldst thou not take such an one for a most dishonest and perfidious man The case of this Treatiser is here iust the same But to returne to the Fathers of the Primatiue Church Of whom he saith what they taught he would hereafter show meaning belyke in some other Booke hereafter to come forth Of that labour he is now allready preuented And therefore the Reader may find in the Conclusion to the former dialogue that by the confessions of most learned Protestants the Fathers were absolute Papists as we are called and are therefore by the said Protestants vtterly reiected In which former passage is also proued from the Protestants lyke Confessions that all the Professours of Christianity betweene the tymes of the auncient Fathers and the dayes of Waldo contayning six hundred yeres at lest were wholy of our present Roman Religion and not any of them a Protestant But let vs now in this next place come to his particular Instances of Protestancy for the space of foure hundred yeres only aboue mencioned in setting downe of which the Pamphleter vseth this ensuing policy for indeed he is a man wholy made of sophistications deceats and collusions he doth not beginne
points touching fayth and Religion and different from the then Roman fayth wherewith Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. were then charged would be professed beleâ—ued and mantayned in these dayes by the enemyes of the Church of Rome And therefore it necessarily followeth that the accusations passed in former times vpon Waldo Wicklefe Hus and the rest are either in generall true or in generall false If false then haue we no sufficient Records that there were any in those dayes who beleiued any points of protestancy If true then certayne it is that as Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. mantayned some points of protestancy so with all that they mantayned diuers explorate Heresies and acknowledged for such both by Catholicks and Protestants Secondly the Pamphleter obiected in the Catholicks name in this sort None of all those which hitherto haue beene named or can be named meaning for Protestants but in some knowne confessed and vndowbted Opinions did varye from you And therefore they and you Protestants may not be said to be all of one Church This difficulty he salueth with a most impudent and bare denyall saying All those whom before I haue named did generally for all mayne Matters teach the same Which we now teach What forhead or shame hath this Man For First as touching Waldo Wiclef Hus and their followers in whom through out this Pamphlet the Authour principally insisteth It is confessed by Osiander Luther Fox and other Protestants as also it appeareth by some of their owne Wrytings that they agreed with the Catholicks in most points of Catholicke Religion which were of greatest moment as in the Reall Presence seuen Sacrements praying to Saincts Purgatory frewill Merit of Works and in all other most principall Articles of the present Roman Religion Concerning the proufe of all which poynts I remit the Reader to the Former Dialogue Secondly touching other obscure Men alledged by the Pamphleter for Protestants he commonly and for the most part some two or three excepted exemplifieth no other Article of Protestancy defended by them then their disobedience and inueighing against the Bishop of Rome But if he could haue iustly auerred them for Protestants in all chiefe Articles why would he not as well particulary set the said Articles of Protestancy downe as he did the other touching their disclayming from the authority of the Bishop of Rome Ad hereto that many are produced for Protestants by this Authour only for their sharply speaking and writing against the manners and conuersation of the Cleargy in those dayes they not dissenting from the doctrine of the then Church of Rome in any one article whatsoeuer euer euen ackuowledging the Primacy of that Sea To all the former poynts I may adioyne this following Consideration That supposing the forsaid alledged Men were protestants in all poynts yet do they not proue the Visibility of the true Church of Christ for these Reasons ensuing First because they were but few in number and in regard of such their paucity the Predictions of the amplitude largnes and continuall splendour of Christ Church could not be performed in that small number Touching which predictions peruse the beginning of the Dialogue Secondly because neither this Authour nor any other Protestant liuing how learned soeuer can proue that there were in those tymes specified by this Pamphleter any Administration of the Word and Sacraments practized by any of these supposed Protestants which euer necessarily concurs to the existence and being of the true Church as is demonstrated in the former Tract Thirdly because the former Men could but serue for instances during their owne lyues and no longer The Pamphleter not being able to name any one Man for a Protestant for the space of many Ages and Centuryes together which poynt being so impugneth not only the Nature of Christs true Church which must at all tymes and ages be most visible but also it crosseth the Title of this Pamphlet wherein the Authour vndertaketh to proue the Visibility of his Church in all Ages Thus far now Good Reader I haue labored in surueighing this Idle Pamphlet Now for they better memory I will breifly recapitulate and repeate certaine chiefe impostures and deceatefull deportements practized by this Authour throughout his Booke And then I will remit both him and his Treatise to they owne impartiall Iudgment 1. First then I may remember his putting no name to his Booke nor taking any Notize of the then late Conference in London touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church nor once naming M. Fisher and M. Sweete the two then disputants Which concealed Cours our Pamphleter purposly affected in all probability seing otherwise he might well thinke that the setting of his owne Name downe especially if the Authour were either D. Whyte or D. Featly or hauing in this discours particular reference to the foresaid Disputation might sooner draw on an answere to his Pamphlet from one of the said two Fathers or from some other Priest 2. Secondly You may call to mynd that in the first part of his Treatise he laboreth to proue rather the Inuisibility of the true Church then the Visibilitie thereof contrary to the Inscription of his Pamphlet cheifly to intimate thereby that a continuall Visibility of the true Church is not so necessarily to be exacted as we Catholicks do teach it is and consequently that what few weake mayâ—ied and imperfect proufs and examples for the continuance of protestancy he was after to alledge the same might be thought sufficient and strong enough for the establishing of his owne Churches Visibility 3. Thirdly The pamphleter callengeth any one for a Protestant who did but hould one or two Articles of protestancy and especially if he did but impugne the Popes authority or did wryte against the Manners conuersation of the Cleargy of those dayes though otherwyse he did agree with the Church of Rome in all Articles of fayth 4. Fourthly He callengeth those for protestants who were condemned by the Church of Rome for other Errours then are mantayned by the protestants so making the ignorant Reader beleiue that the Pope in those dayes condemned only the doctrines of Protestants for Heresies this the pamphleter doth to the end that the number of the professours of his Church in those dayes might seeme the greater in his Readers eye 5. Fyftly he most cauteously concealeth the Catholicke doctrynes euer beleiued by Hus Wiclefe Waldo c. as also sic most falsly extenuateth such Heresies as they mantayned are acknowledged for Heresies euen by learned protestaÌ„ts The Treatizer subtelly forbearing to name or set downe in expres Words any one of their Heresies 6. Sixtly For want of better Authours he fleeth to the testimonyes euen of Poëts as Chaucer Daâ—â—es Petrarch vrging them for protestants only by reason of their Satyrs written against the supposed abuses of Rome 7. Seauently he most impertinently dilateth and spreadeth hymselfe in long and tedious discourses touching the increase of the Doctrine of Waldo Hus Wiclef
c. as also touching the Contentions betweene the Popes and the Emperours the Kings of England and France and finally spendeth diuers leaues in rayling against the Pope as Antichrist All which werisome prolixityes he vseth thereby to spine out his booke to some resonable lenght or quantity seing otherwise to the title of his booke they are mearly impertinent 8. Eightly his Monstrous Impudency is to be obserued in making S. Bernard and the Greeke Church in former tymes as also the Churches in India Armenia Asiae Minor Egipt c. to be protestants without showing any one Protestant Article that they did hould excepting the Greeke Church denying the Popes Supremacy 9. Nynthly The title of his Booke being to proue the continual Visibility of his owne Church in all ages he produceth his Examples of protestancy supposing them for the tyme to be true Examples only for the first three or foure hundred yeres before Luthers dayes and so mearly crose to the title of his booke he omitteth eleuen hundred yeres without geuing instance of any one protestant during all those Ages 10. Tenthly Touching the Compas of those few ages for which he produceth some supposed Examples his fraud and calumny is to begine from Luther vpward and not downward towards Luther thereby the better as is aboue said to conceale from a vulgar Eye the small number of those ages or Centuryes for which he endeuoreth to proue the imaginary Visibility of the protestant Church 11. Eleuently and lastly his stilling the Catholicke Articles to wit of the Reall Presence Purgatorye free will praying to Saincts and all the rest beleiued by S. Bernard and other Catholicks only Lapses and Slipps the beleife of which Articles in vs Catholicks at this present he commonly calls Idolatry Superstition c. But this alleuiation of words and speech he vseth most subtelly of S. Bernard that so notwithstanding S. Bernards different beleife yet by this Pamphleter he neuertheles may be reputed a good protestant Thus far Good Reader of his cheife affected sleightes And with this I end referring this one Consideration vnto thee That is Yf the question of the Visibility of the protestant Church through the Conference had thereof at London immediatly before the comming out of this Pamphlet and occasion of that other Toy intituled The Fisher catched in his owne Mâ—t was at that tyme much discoursed and talked of by many Men through out the land and therefore the Mantayners of this Visibility did stand more obliged by all Reading and learning possible to iustify the same being then and at all tymes so much prouoked vnto it by vs Catholickes and if neuertheles the Authour heare refuted being stiled in the Epistle of this Treatise A most reuerend and learned Man and one who hath more particularly and perspicuously traualled in this Argument then any in our English tongue And therefore he may be presumed in all lyklyhood to haue spoken in defence thereof as much as can be spoken therein Yf I say this Man cannot but for three or foure ages only and these nearest to Luthers dayes seeke to iustify the same and this by meanes of some few false defectiue and misapplyed examples and Instances accompanied with diuers frauds impostures and Collusions What other thing then from hence may be concluded but that it is impossible to make good or proue the Visibility of the Protestants Church during all the ages since Christ to Luthers dayes or indeed duâ—ing but any one â—ge thereof And consequently that the Protestant Church for want of such a necessary Visibility euer attending oâ—â— the true Church of Christ is not nor can be the true Church of Christ FINIS THE ARRAIGNMENT OF THE CONVERTED IEW OR THE THIRD DIALOGVE OF MICHAEAS THE IEVV Betweene The right honorable the Lord Cheife Iustice of England Michaeas the former Conuerted Iew. M. Vice Chancelour of Oxford The Contents hereof the Argument following will show Vide mulierem ebriam de sanguine Sanctorum Apocalips 17. THE ARGVMENT OF THE THIRD DIALOGVE OF MICHAEAS STILED THE ARRAIGNMENT OF THE CONVERTED IEW. MICHAEAS after his disputation ended in Oxford with D. Reynolds Ochinus and Neuserus touching the Inuisibility of the Protestant Church and giuing it out that he would instantly depart from thence Neuerthelesse lyeth secretly in Oxford and hath peculiar acquaintance with some of the choyest witts there whome he persuadeth to the Catholicke and Roman fayth The Vice-Chancelour of Oxford hearing thereof apprehendeth Michaeas conuenteth him before the right Honourable the Lord Cheife-Iustice of England before whome he stands arraigned of three Crymes The first that according to the falsely supposed Principles of the Roman Religion he laboreth to plant disloyalty in the Schollars mindes The which Michaeas absolutly denyeth and thereupon retorteth by way of recrimination the cryme of Disloyalty vpon the Protestants both for their doctrine thereof and for their practise The second offence vrged by the Vice-Chancelour is that Michaeas did write certayne short Discourses of diuers points of Catholicke Religion and diuulged them to the Schollars of his acquaintance Of which discourses the Vice-Chancelour getting a copie of Michaeas his owne hand wryting deliuereth it in the presence of Michaeas to the Lord Cheife-Iustice This Action Michaeas acknowledgeth it as true and warranteth it by force of Reason and strong example The third Cryme That Michaeas being a Roman Priest vndertaketh to reconcile some Schollars to the Church of Rome and daily celebrateth Masse All this Michaeas granteth vnto iustifying such his proceeding by deducing the antiquity of Priesthood of the power of remitting sinnes in the Sacrament of Pennance and of the Masse euen from the times of the Apostles and the Primatiue Church By reason of which occasion the present state of Priests and Catholicks in England is impart discoursed of To conclude omitting diuers other short insertions passages in the Dialogue incidently occurring the Lord Cheife-Iustice as inclining to clemency and commiseration proceedeth to an honorable and myld Censure or iudgment against Michaeas at which censure the Vice-Chancelour mightely stormeth And so Michaeas earnestly praying for the Kings health and true happynes the Dialogue endeth THE ARRAIGNMENT OF THE CONVERTED IEW BEING A DIALOGVE BETWEENE THE RIGHT HONORABLE THE LORD CHEIFE-IVSTICE OF ENGLAND MICHAEAS THE CONVERTED IEW AND M. VICE-CHANCELOVR OF OXFORD Wherein is prooued besides diuers other short insertions that the Protestants stands more chargeable with disloyalty to their Lawfull Princes then Catholicks do THE VICE-CHANCELOVR MY Lord. All duty to your Lordship I haue here brought before your Lordship a Man most turbulent in his proceedings and who of late hath much ruffled and disordered the fiâ—e and quiet state of our Vniuersity by seeking to infect the Schollars thereof with his Popish and superstitious doctrines One whom kinde and curteous entertaynment for such he hath found at our hands cannot mollify and whose demerits are of that nature as that Compassion shewed to him would prooue Cruelty to others And we
after I haue finished my Discours your morning and more retyred thoughts will at lest in the secrets of your owne Iudgment geue an other censure hereof And I will begin in deliuering the Positions doctrines which the most accomplished Protestants for literature haue left of this Argument in their Bookes and wrytings And first do we not find Luther euen to denye all secular principality as most vnlawful now in these Christian dayes For thus he wryteth Among Christian Men none is superiour saue one and only Christ As also more fully Among Christians no man can or ought to be a Magistrate but eich one is to other equally subiect And further in contempt of all Magistrats touching matters of Religion he thus discourseth As Christ caÌ„not suffer hymselfe to be tyed and bound by Lawes c. So ought not the Conscience of a Christian to suffer them And more Yf the Ciuil Magistrate should contend that his Commandements be necessary to saluation then as it is said of the Traditions of the Papists the contrary is to be donne Thus we find that Luther is not affraid not only to impugne all Magistracy and domination in certaine cases but he is also not ashamed to dogmatize and teach in his wrytings that there neither are nor ought to be any true souerainty or Princes at all now in the dayes of Christ To which Princes partly their Eminency graced with Pompe and state but chiefly an innate imbred Obedience to Power and Maiesty God and Nature making that now good which law of man did first ordayne induce men to exhibit all due reuerence and veneration In compare of whom euen the greatest subiects are to seeme but priuate obscure like the brightest starrs which are darkened in the presence of a fayrer light VICE CHANCELOVR Touching Luther Michaeas you must know that although we acknowledge him to haue been a great instrument of God for the reuealing in these later tymes the Gospell of Christ yet we grant that in some points he varyed from the Truth and particularly in denying all Magistracy and Principality But all other cheife Professours of our Religion concurrently teach with vs the lawfulnes of Princes and all due Obedience vnto them MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour If Luther by your owne acknowledgment did erre in this point how then can you rest assured that he did not erre in other points of fayth first by him broached and after entertayned by you Since he had no better warrant for teaching the truth in the one then in the other and it is certayne that a manifest errour but in one point carryeth with it a possibility of erring in any other point But to come to your answere I say the contrary thereto will presently appeare For is it not euident that Swinglius a man of extraordinary note among you thus teacheth Quando perfide extra regulam Christi egerint Principes possunt deponâ— When Princes do euill and contrary to the rule of Christ they may be deposed Thus Swinglius who there warranteth this his doctrine from the example of Saule whom God deposed although afore he designed him King Yea Swinglius thus further proceedeth Due reuerence it to be promised to Caesar if so be permitteth to vs our Religion inuiolable Thus intimating that if the Prince doth not permit Religion then no honour is to be giuen but resistance is to be made Swinglius furthermore continueth his former discours in these very words Romanum Imperium â—mâ— quâ—duâ—s aliud Imperium vbi religionem sinceram opprimere caperit c. If the Roman Emperour or any other Prince or Soueraigne shall beginne to oppresse the sincere Religion nos illud negligentes patimâ— c. And we negligently suffer the same We shall stand charged with contempt thereof as much as euen the oppâ—essours themselues An assertion so much displeasing to other more sober and quyet Protestants that D. Bilson doth rest much distâ—sted with those words of Swinglius saying in lieu of further answere to them As I muse at Swiâ—glius his words so I like not his iudgment VICE-CHANCELOVR Mich 〈…〉 You know well that Swinglius and Luther liued both in one tyme togeather I meane then when though many Articles of the 〈◊〉 were by them discouered yet all were not discouered but happâ—ly they might mantayne some errours The Sunne of Christs Gospell not as then arriuing to it Meridian and full ascent And indeed it is a kind of imperfection and as I may tearme it a signe of an ouer rigid nature to expect in the wâ—yters of those firster tymes no imperfection at all But now in these more late and refyned dayes the Professours of the Gospell haue wholy exploded the former doctrine of Luther and Swinglius herein For what Men do more aduance defend the dignity and soueraignty of Princes then we do in our Sermons and other our priuat Conferences MICHAEAS If you do so much magnify in your Pulpitts as you say you do the regallity of Princes it is to the end that in the close I speake only but of some of you you may the better vndermyne them all like the earth which for the tyme nurrisheth all Creatures yet finally deuoureth all Creatures But because you reply that the Professours comming after Luther and Swinglius cannot be blemished in their wrytings with any spot of disloyalty Therefore to follow you in your owne method therein I will come by degrees from Luther and Swinglius euen to these our dayes and so descending in tymes I will ascend in weight and force of Argument And now to come to Caluin who next in tyme succeeded Swiglius and towards whom most of you Protestants do commit a Kynd of Idolatry It is ouer euident that Caluin thus wryteth of Princes and their authority Earthly Princes do depr 〈…〉 themselfs of authority when they erect themselfs against God yea they are vnworthy to be accounted in the number of Men and we are rather to spit vpon their fâ—ces then to obey them Thus we se that Caluin teacheth that Princes commanding thiâ—gs vnlawfull do vtterly depryue themselfs of all authority and regality where with a fore they were inuâ—sted With which former Words of Caluin D. Wilks no vulgar ProtestaÌ„t doth vppraid the Puritans in this sort They were your teachers who account those Princes who are not resined by their spirit vnworthy to be accounted among the number of Men and therefore rather to be spitted vpon then obeyed They were your teachers who defend Rebellion against Princes of a different Religion Thus D. Wilkâ— To come next to Beza He was so full and intemperate in ouerthrowing the authority of Princes as that he did purposely wryte a booke of this very Subiect styling it De 〈◊〉 Magistratuum in subâ—â—tos a booke much dislyked by D. Bancroft the late Arch Bishop of Canterbury and D. Succlâ—ffe Which Doctour tâ—us censureth thereof Beza in his booke of the
Apostles and consequently that I contrary to your L. supposall do heere instruct the Academians in the same fayth and Religion which first florished in those primatiue tymes Now that neuer any change was made at Rome in poynts of fayth and Religion your Lordship may be fully satisfyed by perusing the former Dialogue betweene the Honorable Cardinall and Doctour Whitakers VICE-CHANCELOVR My Lord. Michaeas will tyre you with his wearisome speeches and if you would suffer him will perorate whole dayes togeather for he hath a peculiar deliuery of himselfe in seeking to decline his accusations by framing his tedious discourses touching the supposed honour of his owne Religion wholy impertinent to that for which he now stands arraigned Therefore to cut off all such exhorbitancyes of speeches I now in your L. presence to the greater accumulation of his former crymes do in this last place accuse him of being a Popish Priest a pernicious state of Men and such as your Lordship well knowes is incompatible with the Lawes of our Realme Thus we may obserue how the ouershadowing Prouidence of God hath disposed in these matters that if by supposall his former faults might passe vncorrected yet this last breaketh through the bounds of all Commiseration and Pitty Therefore your L. may do well to examyne him strictly hereof and cause him to answere without any reserued sense of equiuocation the peculiar Dialect of the Papists in like cases L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE Perceaue you not heere Michaeas how in your accusation one cryme is euer at the backe of an other like waues following one another till they all ouerflow and ouerwhelme you You are heere lastly accused to be one of that state of Men I meane a Romish Priest which are insufferable in our Nation and whom as guilty of many foule transgressions our Lawes do most seuerely punish Tell me therefore directly whether you be a Priest or no. MICHAEAS Sweete Iesus what sallyes of Malice hath your tongue M. Vice-Chancelour made in this your long Processe of my accusation First by charging me with reall disobedience to the supreme Magistrate then with penning the foresaid Catholicke Treatises and now for the close of all with being a Priest Where I see howsoeuer my cause be good yet I must be reputed Euill But leauing that and to answere to my Lords last Question Since then I am demaunded thereof I will not conceale my greatest honour I grant I am a Catholicke and Roman Priest created by the reuerend hand of the most illustrious and learned Bellarmine But is the very name of a Priest though otherwise not to be charged with any fault so distastfull in this place Or shall it be at any tyme heere asked Cur de solo nomine punitis facta Your Lordshipps iudgment no dowbt would hearein be altered if so you would vouchsafe to take into your Consideration the antiquity of the holy Order of Pryesthood since our Sauiour hymselfe was the first Priest in the tyme of Grace typically adumbrated by that of Melchisadech Tu es Sacerdos socundum ordinem Melchisadech Of which poynt the goldentonged Father thus wryteth Videns typum cogita oro veritatem Thus Christ was the supreme Priest Man but the Ministeriall Priest O how reuerently do the auncient Fathers speake of Priesthood Nazianzene tearmeth a Priest the Mediatour betweene God and Man Chrysostome honored Prieshood so much as that he did wryte a booke entituling it De Sacerdotio among infinit other passages of which subiect he thus saith Non Angelus non Archangelus non alia quaeuis creata potentia sed ipso Paracleâ—us Ordinem eiusmodi disposuit Neither Angel nor Archangell nor any created Power but only our Aduocate Comforter Meaning Christ did institute this Order of Pryesthood Ambrose in like sort did wryte of this subiect styling his Treatise De dignitate Sacerdotale In which booke speaking of the manner how a Priest is created thus wryteth in the first Chapter thereof Homo imponit manum Deus langitur gratium Sacerdos imponit simplicem dexteram Deus benedicit potenti dexiera Man doth impose the hand but God giueth the grace The Priest doth lay his humble hand meaning vpon hym who is to be made Pryest But God doth blesse with his pouerfull hand Leo the first thus worthely wryteth hereof Omnium Sacerdotum tam excellens est electio vt haec quae in alijs membris Ecclesiae vacant a culpa in illis tamen habeantur illicita The state of all Pryests is so noble as that some things theare are meaning mariadge of Pryests which being lawfull in other members of the Church are neuerthelesse prohibited in them To be short Pacâ—nus thus amplifieth vpon this poynt Plebi vnde Spiritus quam non consignat vnctus Sacerdos How can that Society or company of Men receaue the Holy Ghost if the annoynted Priest doth not signe blesse them Thus farre in generall of the dignity of Pryesthood which I hope in modesty and without the lest tuche of Vanity I may alledge forbearinge many more authorityes of lyke nature lest my producing of them might be misconstiued my selfe being a Priest and therefore interressed in them by some one or other deprauing tongue VICE-CHANCELOVR What you haue heare Michaeas alledged out of Antiquity in honour of Priesthood we willingly acknowledge since it was then ment and now is truly applyed to the Ministers of the Ghospell and others of the faythfull in regard of the spirituall sacrifices of Prayer dayly offered vp by them who therefore in a metaphorical and improper acceptance of the word Pryest and as the phraze is are tearmed Pryests MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour You are fowly mistaken heerein willing it seemes you are to vendicate to your owne Ministerial function the prayses due to Priesthood But I hope you will stand to the iudgment of S. Austin and other Fathers herein S. Austin then thus speaketh of this poynt Soli Episcopi Presbiteri propriè vocantur in Ecclesia Sacerdot s. Thus Austin by expressely calling Bishops Presbyters only Priests excludeth this secondary and improper signification of the word Priest which you seeme heare to mantayne and which in your sense may be truly extended to Weomen who offer vp the Sacrifice or prayer to God as well as Men. And according hereto it is that Ireneus acknowledging with you that in a restrayned sense all iust Men may be called Priests doth further teach a peculiar Pryesthood of the Apostles different from the former kynd of Pryesthood which saith he dayly attends vpon God and the Altar And hence also it is that the greeke Word 〈…〉 ereus which properly signifieth Sacerdos is applyed to Christian Pryests by Eusebius Ierome Ignatius and finally to omit others by Dionysius Areopagita I may ad in further warrant of this Truth that the auncient Fathers do make frequent mention of Altars now to be in the Church of Christ But
you the Power Christ his Mearcy and the Holy-G 〈…〉 rection and spirit for the 〈…〉 your soules with so 〈…〉 able a â—ewell Cut veritas comp 〈◊〉 siâ—◠〈…〉 cognitus 〈…〉 Christo â—cui Crâ—â—us exploratus â—ine Spiritu Sancto cui Spiritus â—anctu accomodaâ—us sine siâ—ei Sacramento Laus Deo Beate Virgini Maria. * Rom. 1. 15. 16. Act. 28. * Nazianz in carmine de vita sua a Esay 60. b a dye or any foursquared thing c 2. cor 3. d Dan. 3. e Caluin is charged with Sodomy by the publike records of the Citty of Noyon in FraÌ„ce yet extant And by Conradus Slussenberg a ProtestaÌ„t in Theol. Caluin printed 1594. l. 2. fol. 72. Beza is charged with the same cryme by the foresaid Slussenberg vbi supra and l. 1. fo 93. By Titilmannus Heshutius a Pretestant in his booke entituled Verae sanae confessionis And the same is coÌ„fessed of Beza by D. MortoÌ„ though most falsly excused in his Apolog. Catholica part 1. l 2. c. 21. f Math. 7. g Prouerb 27. h Iac. 1. a Psalm 83. b Exod. 3. c Act. 24. d Act. 22. e 1. Cor. 10. f Ephis 6. g Act. 4. h Hebr. 9. i Philip. 2. * Tertul. k Ephis 4. c Math. 18. m Tertul. n Maeth 18. o Deutro 4. p 1. Timoth 3. q Mat. 12. r At Dauid Georg Professour at Basil Hamelinanus c. s D. Whit. so saith coÌ„tra Camp Rat. 8. t 2. Timo. 3. u Psal 18. x Apocal. vlt. y Ioan. 3. z 2. Petr. 2. a Malach. 3. b Rom. 1. c Rom. ibid. d Rom. 16. e Rom. 1. f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 13. g Galat 6. h D. Whita thus saith cont Camp Rat. 7 i D. Whita vb supra k Rom. 15. l D. Whit. cont Camp Rat. 7. m D. Whit. vseth these very words L. cont CaÌ„p Rat. 7. saying Haec sunt Ecclesiae vestrae insignia Superstitio Infidelitas Antichristus Epicurus n Psalm 68. et Ioan. 2. o D. Whit. cont Bellar. L. de Eccles coutrouers 2. q. 5. c. 14. saith efficax est AduersarioruÌ„ ipsoruÌ„ contra ipsos testimonium c. et quideÌ„ fateor veritateÌ„ a suis inimiciâ— Testimoniis extorquere posse p cont Donat post coll c. 24. q Bell. thus saith verbal ly in l. 4. de Eccles c. 5 de Not. Eccles Nota secuÌ„da r D. Fulk in his Coful of Purgat p. 374. s D. Whit. coâ—t a Bell. l. de Eccles where he spoketh of certaine Apostol Churches perticulerly of the Church of Rome t In his Confutat of Purgatory pag. 372. u In his Reply to D. Haâ—ding pag. 246. x 〈…〉 it l. 4. c. 2. sect 3. y Retentiues pag. 85. z Fp. ad Pom 〈…〉 p. â—7 ad Damas a L. 3. aduer Haeres c. 3. b Tom. 7. in Psal Cent. parâ—e Do 〈…〉 2. Ep. 165. et Lib. ae vtilit Credenaâ— c. 17. c Aduer Haeres Paulo pos 〈…〉 init d De obiâ— fracâ— e So Doct. whit stileth D. Clarke in L. con Camp Rat. 8. meaning theirby his Cemâ—â—les et consocius in Doctrina f D. Humâ—â—y in Iesuitism part 2. Rat. 5. Pag. 5. et Pag. 627 g Al-Which places following of the Cen â—rists thus charging Gregory are to be founde in their sixt Century after the first EditioÌ„ ther of between Col 369. and Col. 432. h In his epâ—tom Hist Eccles Cent. 6. â—ag 289. i D. Whit. Lib. de Eccle. cent Bellaâ— pag. 144. k D whit vbi supra p. 339. 1. l Cent. 3. c. 4. col 3. m Cent 4 c. 4. col 295. n In his Confutation of Purgatory p. 362. et 303. et 393. o Epist dâ— abrogand omnibus statuâ—is Ecclesiast p Cent. 4. col 558. 2. q Cent. 3. col 94. r Cent. 3. cap 84. s Cent. 3. col 85. t D. Fulke In hiâ— aÌ„swer to a Counterfeyt Catholick p. 36 u In his Retentiue pag. 106. x M. Georg Gifford In his demonstratioÌ„ that Brownists are â—â—ll Donaâ—â—sâ—â— p. 38. 4. y In his Confutation of Purgatory p. 353. z In his examen part 3. p. 110 a Act. b against the Rhemish Test 2. Thess 2. c D. Fulke in Rhemish Testament in 2. Petr. Cap. 1. d Cent. 3. Col 84. e Cent. 3. col 83. f Cent. 3. col 75. g Cent 3. c. 4. col 83. 5. h Cent. 2. c. 10. col 221. i Cent. 2. pag. 56. k Abraham Sâ—ulteâ—us in his medulla Theolog. ca Patrum pag. 379. 6. l In Galat. cap. 4. m Cent. 3. col 265. n D. Humf. In â—esuct 〈…〉 Part. 2. pag 530. o So sayth D. Whit. 〈…〉 de Antichristo cont SaÌ„deruÌ„ pag. 35. p D. whit cont Duraeu l. 7. p. 48. q D. Whit. cont Camp Rat. 5. r D. Whit. cont Bellar. pag. 37. s So faith Tertullian l. de Anima c. 3. t S. Augnstine Contrae Donatist c. 24. u Ephes 4. x Against the Remish TestaÌ„ment in Ephes 4. y In his answeare to a CouÌ„terfeite Catholicke pag. 11. z D. Whit. Speaking of the preaching of the Word c. stileth theÌ„ Essentiales notae Ecclesiae Cont. DuraeuÌ„ l. 3. p. 260. a D. Whit. Saith si adest Ecclesiam coÌ„stituit tollitsiauferatur Cont. DuraeuÌ„ l. 3. p. 249. b Esay c. 62. c Lib. de Haeresib Haeris 88. 89. et Haeres 692. d Cent. 6. Col. 312. e In his Catalogue testium veritatis f In epitoâ— Historiae Eccles g So Eugenius 4. is noted by the Councell of Basill Benedictus 3. By the Councell of Constance Gregory the 7. By Benno c. h Li. 4. Ep. 34. ci 36. i In his Epi. vniuersis Episcopis k As Kekermannus the ProtestaÌ„t witneseth in systeÌ„ Theolog. pag. 68. m Haers 53. n In Epist ad Michaelem Episcop ConstaÌ„tinop 〈◊〉 5. o Cent. 11 c. 8. â— Haeres 75. p The booke entituled The Relicks of Rome writen by Tho. Beacon The Anatomy of the Masse by Anthony de Adamo printed 1556. HospiniaÌ„ hist Sacrament l. 2. c. 4. 5. 6. 7. printed 1591. besides diuers others q Beza CoÌ„fess general â—7 Sect. 12. r So saith D. Whit. in his booke coÌ„â— Bellarm. pag. 37. s So is MelaÌ„ctâ—on alleadged by M. Haruey in Theolog. discourse pag. 102. t In his Libri psalm quinque psal 22. fol. 146. 147. u Act. MoÌ„ of An. 1576 pag. 539. x vpoÌ„ the Reuelations in C. 20. y In his Treatise concerning Antichrist pag 110. y vpoÌ„ the Apocalyps serm 16. pag 198. and in his preface to the Apocalyps z In his answere to a Couterfâ—yte Catholicke p. 36. a In his Synops p. 160. b D. Whitakers de Ecclesia coâ—ra Bellaâ—m controuers 2. quaest 4. p. 141. Thus writeth D cunus Gregorium Magnum fuisse v 〈…〉 mum veruÌ„ et pâ—um ill us Ecclesiae Epsâ—opâ—â— c. q 〈…〉 m secuti sunt fuerunt veri Antichrist c. Et quia certum aliquod tempus a nobis quaerâ—ni et pestulant hoc tempus illis designâ—mus
Bible vpoÌ„ that chapter o In huÌ„c locum p â—ranct 1. in epist Ioannis q See the marginall notes of the English bibles of anno 1576. In Esay 2. r Tract 2. in epist in Ioan. s Against the Rhemish Test in Eph. 4. t Contra Duraeum l. 3. p. 249. u In Synops Papisin p. 71. x Contra Duraeum l. 3. p. 260. y Against Heskins Sanders c p. 569. a Fulke vbisupra p. 536. In his answere to a contersayte Catholicke p. 11. c Propositions and principles disputed in the vniuerâ—ily of Geneua p. 845. d C. 72. e Iacob in his reasons tâ—ken out of Gods word p. 2â— f In his Synops p. 54. g Ierem. 33. h Esay 66. i Daniel 2. k Esay â—0 l Reg. 〈◊〉 m Daniel 9. n 2. Thâ—ss 2. o 12. p Hebrâ— 4â— 8. q In corpore doctrinae p. 530. r In his soueraigne remedy p. 17. s In 24. Mâ—chaeâ— t Vbi Chrysost u Epist 88. ad Esichium x l. 20. de ciuitat Deuâ— 19. y BullenleÌ„ger in his preface to his SermoÌ„s vpon the Apocalyps As also the Protestant Scâ—lio in his booke of the second comming of Christ fol. 21. z C. 4. a Against the Rhemish Testament in 2. Thessal 2. b Vbi supra c Vpon the Apocal. sol 200. d In â—aâ— analyt p. 368. e Homil. 30. â—in Mathâ—eum f L. de vnitate Eccle. g Homil. 4. in cap. 6. Ioan. h Contra faustum Manich. lib. 1. i Contra lit Precil 〈◊〉 2. c. 32. k Tract 1. in epist Ioannis l Tract 2. in epist Ioannis m Peter Martyr in Com. place in English part 2. pag. 594. saith The Iewes though they be kept in so great aduersity c. yet they hould stil their Religion n Se hereof Caelius Secundus Curio l. de amplit regnâ— Dei l. 1. p. 65. and the Century writers in the 4. chapter of euery Century p lib. â—de simplicit Praelat q Epist 1. ad Damasum de nomine Hypostasis r l. 4. de Baptism c. 2. s Institâ— 4. 1. sect 4. t in concil Theol. part 2. u in loc com edit 1561. c. de Ecclesia x Melan. vbi supra y in his Treatise of freewill p. z in his booke against Hosius p. 210. a in his booke of the visible Church b in his booke of Ecclesiast policy p. 126. c in his Epist annexed to his CommoÌ„ places printed in English p. 153. d l. 1. of the Church c. 10. p. 19. e vbi supra p. 21. Iesuitis in part 2. c. 3. g In his answere to a Popish Pamphlet p. 11. * D. Fulkde successione Eccles p. 89. h in Epist Euchar i loc tit de Iudaeis col 390. k In his suruey c. 〈◊〉 l Lib. 4. c. 14. m Orat. de S. Basil n Vir 〈…〉 c sol 156. d sol 132. e fol. 132. f fol. 128. h 116. i fol. 117. k so 1â—9 l ibidem m fo 132. n fol. 115. o fol. 117. p fol. 4. q fol. 138 139. r fol. 14â— s fol. 142. t fol. 14◠¶ Luther epist ad Argentinenses ¶ Touching the sentences alledged in this passage out of Luthers writings the Reader is to obserue percisly the editions of his bookes here quored seeing in some later editions diuers of his said testimonyes are for very shame wholy omitted left out x Luther in purgat quoruÌ„dam Aâ—ticul in episi ad Georgium spalatinuÌ„ y Art 30. z Conclus 15. in disput Lipsica cum Echio a In 1. part operum formula caÌ„tè loquendaÌ„ cap. de Sanct. cultuâ— b In resp ad art Colloq Montisâ— part alt in prefat c Luther in epist ad ad Bohemos d In his refutation Caeremoniarum Missae printed Magdâ—â— 1603. p. 118. e Loc. 7. com pag. â—â—6 f In loc â—om class 1. c. 37. p. 107. * 〈◊〉 Cor. â— g Sorelateth Zwinglius of Luther tom 2. in respons ad confut Lutheri fâ— 474. h Luth. in encherid praecum anni 1543. i Luth. in postill maiori Basili 〈…〉 apud Heruagium in enarrat Euang Dominicae Trinit k Contra Iacobum Latomum tom 2. Wittenberg latine edit anno 1551. l Zwinglius tom 2. in respons ad Confess Lutheri m In assert damnat per Leonem art 36. n Luth. deseruo arbitrio c. 32. o Luther in Confess Maiore in Caena Domini p Vide Concil part 2. q In epist theologie epist 60. r Luth. tom 2. l. de ministris Eccles institue 〈…〉 lis fol. 368. 369. â—id l. de abrog Missa priuata tom 2. fol. 249. lib. de captiuit Babilon c. de ordine s These be D. Couelis words in his defence of M. Hooker art 15. p. 101. t In hist Sacrament part altera fol. 14. u Luth. de seculari potest in tom 6. german x Luth. in tom 7. Wit tenberg fol. 327. y Luther praesai in epist Iacobi edit 4. Ienensi z Vpon the Apocalyps englished c. 1. serm 1. fo 2. a Tom. 3. Wittenberg in Psal 45. fol. 423. b In epist ad Galaâ— 1. tom 5. Wittenb of anno 1554. fol. 290. c Luth. in tom 2. WitteÌ„berg In assert damnat per Leonâ— decimum assert 34. d In ep ad fratres Inferioriâ— Germaniae e Luther vpon the Galat. englished in c. 2. And see Luther in his Sermons englished fol. 204. f Luther tom 1. Prop. 3. g In his Sermons englished p. 147. h Luth. ibid. pag. 276. i In his Apol. Cathol p. 42. k Lib. de Eccles contraâ— Bellarm. controuers 2. quaest 5. l In his Apolog. of the Church part 4. c 4. m In ep ann 36. ad Episc Hereford n In theolog Caluinist l. 2. fol. 130. o Tract de Eccles pag. 145. p Act. mon. pag. 190. q In his Treatise of Antichrist p. 40. r Act. Mon. p. 260. s Fox in Apocalyps c. 11. pag. 290. t In colloquijs Germ. c. de Antichristo u Act. mon. 230. Art 1. 2. x In epitom Cent. 15. p. 469. y Act. mon. printed 1596. pag. 391. z In his booke of the state of the Church pag. 418. a Fox vbi suprà b In his Annals of England printed 1591. p. 425. c Wicklef in postilla super 15. cap. Marci meÌ„tioneth all the seauen sacrameÌ„ts And in postilla super 1. Cor. cap. 1. he writeth as is here set downe d Wicklef serm de Assumpt Mariae e Wicklef de Eucharist c. 9. f In his Annals printed 1592. p. 426. g As witnesseth Oâ—iand CeÌ„t. 15. p. 457. h Cent. 6. 10. 11 c. p 459. aâ—t 43. i In ep ad Fredericum Miconium k Act mon. p 96. art 4. l Epitom hâ—st Cent. 9. 10. 11. aâ—t 4. m Tom. 3. c. 7 8. 9. n Osiander in epitom hist CeÌ„t. 9. 10. â—1 12. o Mâ—lancthon vbi supra p As witnesseth Sâ—ow vbi supra q In Chronol p. 119. r Melancthon vbi supra s Act. Mon. p. 95. t Ioan. â— u Act.
rat 3. p. 44. y Epist de abrouaÌ„dis in vniuersum omnibus statut Ecclesiast z In his exposition of the Creed p. 400. a Instit 4 c. 1. sect 11. b In the Apology of the Church of Enâ—land part 4. c. 4 p. 426. c In his Booke of the Church l. 3. c. 6. f. 72. d EpitoÌ„ Cent. 16. p. 736. e In his booke against the Anabaptists f Esay 60 62. Psalm 102. Ephes 4. besydes many other places a Sess 24. Can. 3. b Cap. 2â— c Gene 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 3â— d Cap. 25. e Math. â—6 f Homiâ— 49. in Matheunâ— g In CoÌ„ment c. 24. in Mathaeâ—m h L. 18. Antiquit cap. 9. a Quaest 77. b 3. Regum c. 6. and 7. c Cap. 21. d Cap. 25. e Exod. 31. 34. Deutâ—on 4. 9. 10. f Lib. 6. stoâ— cituÌ„ g Quaest 71. in Euod epist 119. cap. 11. a Greâ—â—ry Nyssen orat in Theodor. b S. Thomas in 3. sentent distinct â— c Thus teacheth the CouÌ„cell of Trent sess 25. d Exod. 25. e Exod. 12. f Exod. 28. g Esay 11. h Cap. 3. i 2. Tim. cap. 3. k Philip. 2. If any Authour seeme to say that the same worship is giuen to the Image which to the hrofit vpon eyther he meaneth that nothing is giuen to the Image but all to that which it representeth or that it is the same only in name not in nature or only Analogicè non vniuocè l Lib. 2. de doctrina Christiana c. 25. m Serm. 10. in psalm 118. n In Leituâ—â—â—a o In vita Paulae p Quaest 16. an Antiocum q Cent. 4. cap. 10. col 1080. n In â—ulianum vt citat Adrianus ad Imperator r Cent. 10. c. 8. col 850. s In epitoÌ„ Cent. 6. p. 288. t In his pageant of Popes p. 24. 27. u on the reuelat p. 57. x Lib. 7. coÌ„mentar at anno Christi 494. y Cedrenus in coÌ„pend Histor z Nicephorus in hist l. 16. c. 27. a Exam. part 4. p. 14. 33. b So doth Beza relate of Luther and Brenâ—ius in resp ad Act. Colloq Montisb part altera in praefat pag. 12. c In epitom colloq Montisb pag. 39. d Lib. 7. histor cap. 14. e In cap. 9. Mathaei f Lib. 6. histor cap. 20. a Lib. de ciuitate Dei c. vlt. b Rom. 11. vt saluos facereÌ„ aliquos ex illis c 1. Cor. 9. vt omnes racereÌ„ saluos d Ioh. 10. 14. e Cap. 15. f Toby 12. Zach. 1. Math. 18. Apoc. 8. g Luc. 20. h Lib. hist c. 5. i Decura pro mortuis k Orat. de Sancto Manante l Orat. 1. in IulianuÌ„ m In vita Greâ—orij ueo 〈…〉 â—aâ—â—ens n Lib. 5. histor c. 24. o Genes â—8 p Cap. 5. q In annoâ—at in Iob. Cap. 7. s Cap. 15. t 6. u 5. x 3. y 4. z 13. a Cap. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Serm. Euang. de sanctissima Deipara b Act. 11. c Act. 7. d Act. 6. e Cap. 7. Eccles Hierarch f Lib. 5. coÌ„tra Haeres vltra medium g Lib. 13 praeparat Euang. c. 7 i Orat. in 40. Martyres k Homil. 66. ad Populum l Orat. in Sanctum TheodoruÌ„ m In psal 129. n Lib. de Viduis vltra med o In epitaph Paulae p Tract 84. in Iohannem r D. Fulke in his Reioindeâ— to Bristow s D. Fulk agaynst the Rhenish Test in 2. Petr. c. 1. t D. Fulk agaynst the Rhenish Test vbi supra u In his defence agaynst the reply of Cart. wright p. 472. x In his examinat p. 120. y In purgat quoruÌ„dam articul z In orat 1. Chryâ—ost de Inuentio maximo a Act. mon. p. 1312. b See Hâ—fferenfetus in loc theol l. 3. stat 4. c Ierome epist 2 cotra V 〈…〉 l. Gregory lib. 11. moral cap. 13. 16. * Gregory vbi supra d Lib. de cura pro mortuis c. 15. e Nazianzene orat fun in sororem Gorg. f Luc. 15. a Lib. 22. de ciuitat Dei c. 29. a Bellar. de 〈…〉 cat l. 4. c. 10. b Rom. 9. c Rom. 8. d Sess 6. c. vlâ— * Math. 5. e Math. 20. f vâ— Matth. 16. g Rom. 〈◊〉 h vz. psalm 65. Luc. 6. 1. Cor 3. Galat 6. Apocal vlt. i Math. 25. k Cap. 7. l Hebr. 6. m Apoc. 2. n 2. Thes 1. 2. Tim. 4. Iacob 1. x Luc. 10. y 2 Thes 1. z Sapient 3. Luc. 20. Apoc. 3. a Epist ad Rom. b Lib. 4. aduersus Haeres c. 72. c Lib. de Spirit Sanct. cap. 24. d Homil. 4. de Lazero e Orat. in Sanct. Baptism f Orat. 1. de amandis pauperibus g De vnitat Eccles h Lib. 1. de officijs cap. 15. i Epist 103. ad Sixtum k Aduersi Iouinianum propâ— finem l Iesuitism part 2. p. 530. m Cent 5. col 1178. n Cent. 3. col 265. o In CoÌ„fess Wittenberg p Luth. in Galat. cap. 4 the latin word by him need is Iustiliarij q Contra Camp rat 5. r In his defence against the reply of Cartwright pag. 472. 473. s Vpon the Apocalyps ser 87. t In his defence of M. Parkins p. 340. u Pag. 495. 273. x Lib. 5. eccles pol. sect 72. p. â—08 y In loc â—om de bonis operib circu medium z In Margarit Theolog. p. 48. 50. a Math. 19. b Lib. de habitu virginum c In huÌ„clocum d De sancta virginitat c. 24. e Math. 19. f De viduis vltra medium g Lib. coÌ„tra vigilant h Epist 89. quaest 4. i In c. 5. ad Rom. k Lib. de humanitate verbi vltra med l Lib. de virginit vlt. med m Homil. 8. de Penit n Orat. in Iulian. vltra medium o De hábitu virâ—inum vltra medium p Lib. de â—â—duis q Lib. contra Iouinianum r Lib. de virginitate Sancta cap. 30. s Eccles pol lib. 3. sect 8. pag. 140. t In his defence of M Hooker art 8. pag. 49 50. 51. 52. u In Sacra 4. Euangel in Math. c. 19. a 2 Reg. c. 12. b Reg. 〈◊〉 24. c 1. Cor. 1. d 1. Iohn 〈◊〉 2. Math. 16. f Math. 18. Iohn 20. g Coloâ— 1. h In psal 61. i Colos 1. k Cor. 2. Cor. 1. l Row 9. m Psal â—21 n Psalm 218. o Ezech 18. p Ad Galat 6. q Psalm 49. r Marc. 9 s Iob 4. t Eccles 3. u 2. Cor. 2. x Lib. ad Martyr y Cyprian epist 13. 14. 15. serm vlt. de Lapsis z Luggerus epist de S. Swiberto apud SuriuÌ„ a Thom in 4. sentent dis 20. q. 1. art 3. b Anton. 2. part histor tit 16 cap. 1. c Abbas Vlperg in Chronic. d Can. 11. e Can 9. f Can. 2. g Cempnit in his Examen Concil Trident. parr 1. pag. 74. h 1. Tim. 3. i Kempnitius examen part 4. p. 329. a Ioan. 〈◊〉 b vbi supra c Luc. 24. d Lib. 3. de