be whereby we come to assurance that these bookes are the word of God let it suffice all men that both we and you agree they are so But I pray tell me Are the determinations of the Church any more certaine What ground haue I but the word of some men that the Church hath so determined It is not a matter so agreed vpon betwixt vs as the bookes of Scripture are Out of question the ods is on our side It is doubtfull whether you Romanistes are the Church or no it is out of doubt these bookes are the infallible word of God But you will say the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood as well because they are written in Hebrew and Greeke as also for the kind of writing Are not all the Decrees of your Councels and determinations of your Popes Consistorie written either in Greeke or Latin or in the Italian language in none of which one man among ten thousand hath any skill And is there not as great reason to thinke the Scriptures are rightly translated as your Decrees Decretals and Determinations Especially when as we commonly alledge the interpretations of the ancient Fathers and learned Papists for the auowing of our translations But the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood though a man be skilfull in the tongues And are the Decrees of your Councels so easie that euery man may vnderstād them who knowes the language they are written in Doth not Bellarmine condemne and confute our writers Caluin Chemnitius and other for not vnderstanding the Decrees of your Councell of Trent written in Latine which language they were as skilfull in as himselfe If they be so easie how chance Bishop Catharin and Frier Soto that were both present at the Councell and heard the debating of matters can not agree about the doctrine of it concerning assurance of saluation which as Soto affirmes was the longest and most troublesome disputation of all in the Councell and therefore should haue bene best vnderstood and plainliest deliuered Yet is it so propounded by the holy fathers the authors of it that Catharin saith boldly he foresaw that most men would vnderstand the words of the Decree otherwise then the holy Synod meant them Was there not great contention within these very few yeares betwixt Archbishop Christophor de Capite fontium and many other Diuines about the meanes of transsubstantiating the bread though in his iudgement the Councel of Trent makes manifestly for him I forbeare to say that some points seeme to haue bene craftily set downe of purpose like the oracles of Apollo that which way soeuer they be taken the Church may not seeme to haue erred Neither will I adde that diuerse matters are deliuered by Councels not as points of faith but as probable coniectures which yet may be and are taken by some of your owne learned writers as if they were resolutely determined for certaine truth These things considered I see no sufficient reason why it should not be as fit and safe to learne of the Scripture which is the infallible truth as of any companie of men whatsoeuer But you labour to commend to vs this resting on the authoritie of the Romish Church by some especiall commodities that shall ensue thereupon The first wherof is ease the 2. certaintie of knowledge He shall not need say you to straine his wits in studying c. If ease were not too much delighted in by men of your profession there would not be such swarms of idle Monks Fryers Nuns nonresident Bishops and Priests amongst you But true Christians vnderstand that it was not Gods purpose to prouide so much for their ease by giuing them leaue to beleeue at aduenture hand ouer head whatsoeuer it should please men to enioyne thē but that it is his good pleasure that all men should carefully and painfully exercise themselues night and day in reading and meditating of the Scriptures He is too nice and dainty a professor of religion that is loth to straine his wits to the vttermost in the study of any thing reuealed by God in Scripture What shall I say of him that cals conference and disputation about euen the greatest points of faith and iustification wasting of words in wrangling Nec se magnanimo maledicere sentit Achilli It is strange you should not haue the wit to perceiue that by this censure you condemne Lombard Thomas and all your schoole men yea the Pope and generall councels who are bound to vse such meanes for the finding out of the truth and as Sotus saith did vse them in a long and troublesome disputation yet forsooth neither the one nor the other at least both together cannot erre No man then ought to refuse study or disputation of controuersies in diuinitie because they are troublesome Therefore to mend the matter you adde that they are also vncertaine what can be certain but only reuelation if the true vse of reason can breed nothing but vncertainty How idly and vainly did your schoolemen imploy themselues if all their study and labour must end in vncertainty What vse is there of Councels for finding out of the truth since the helpe to be had of them is debating of matters by reasoning Do we not find in daily experience that as flint and steele stricken together bring forth fire so truth is as it were beaten out by disputation It is reported you make great shewes of desiring a disputation I maruaile to what end If when all comes to all your auditors shall still remaine vncertaine what is true Shall I go yet farther You tell vs the Church cannot erre we beleeue you not you alledge some places of Scripture to proue it to vs we say they proue no such matter what course will you take It is in vaine to dispute of it that is as you say to wast words in wrangling about it For that is but an vncertaine meanes to find-out the truth Haue you not brought matters to a good passe thinke you when you professe that there is no meanes to discern certainlie whether the Church can erre or no but onely to take her own word for it Yea no meanes left to know that she is the Church For if you will againe fly to the Scriptures you run into the former difficulties and end as before in vncertainty Who would haue to do with such vnreasonable men But that you may not seeme to leaue vs in vncertainty you tel vs that we may most certainly be instructed in all particular points of controuersies by onely enquiring and finding out what is holden generally by the Church for truth c. You send vs to the faith of the Church and namely of the Church of Rome Which say we is onely so farre forth to be yeelded vnto as it is agreeable to the Scriptures Neither do we say so onely but Ambrose long before our time hath said the like We are commanded saith
ei credidissem discendum What a madnesse is this in thee to say beleeue them to wit the Catholickes that we must beleeue Christ and the Scriptures to be his word yet learne of vs what Christ said that is to say what is the meaning of his word I should saith S. Austin much more easily perswade my self that I ought not to beleeue Christ at all then that I must learne any thing concerning him of any except of those of whom I haue already learned to beleeue in him A. W. I denie your principall Assumption wherein you denie the sufficiencie of the Scripture for the determining of all matters of faith For if the Scripture were not sufficient to this purpose it might be lawfull for men to adde to the word of God that which is wanting but that God hath precisely forbiddē all mē Ye shall put nothing to the word which I command you neither shall you take any thing from it out of which Cardinall Caietane saith we may gather that the law of God is perfect But of this place I haue said more other where and our Diuines are large and plentifull in this argument The Apostle Paul affirmeth of him selfe that he preached nothing but that which had bin spoken by Moses and the Prophets yea our Sauiour euery where auoucheth his doctrine by the writings of the old Testament Indeed of whom should we know the will of God but of God himselfe who doubtlesse hath not deliuered it so sparingly in so many seuerall bookes but that it containeth whatsoeuer is needfull to saluation All things indeed that our Lord did are not written but those saith Cyril that the writers thought to be sufficient for manners and doctrine I could ouerwhelme you with testimonies of the Fathers in this matter A few shall serue The Canonicall Scripture saith Austin is the rule of all The letters of Bb. are reprehended by some other of grauer authoritie Generall Councels correct prouinciall and the former are amended by the latter Let the Scripture be iudge saith another and let those doctrines be held for true that agree with it For the law of God or Scripture as Chrysostom saith is a most exact ballance square and rule Therefore let vs passe by that which he or he thinkes and let vs enquire all things of the Scriptures The holy Scriptures inspired by God are sufficient to shew the truth And therfore as Hilary saith wisely and religiously It were well we would content our selues with those things that are written If we will not this is Basils censure of vs that we are without faith and proud It is a manifest argument of infidelitie saith Basil and a certaine signe of pride if any man reiect ought that is written or attempt to bring in any thing that is not written Therefore Damascen saith that the Church receiueth acknowledgeth and reuerenceth all things that are deliuered by the law the Prophets the Apostles and Euangelists and further seeketh not for any thing I pray you shew me some reason if you can why the Lord that doth not omit necessary matters repeateth those that are lesse needful to be known should fil so many bookes of Scripture with the same histories and points of doctrine oftentimes rehearsed and quite leaue out many things of farre greater importance then some of those are which he hath caused to be written Without the knowledge of many things recorded in the Scriptures a man may be saued but you denie saluation to all men that beleeue not whatsoeuer you teach them and there is no end of your deuices though it haue no warrant in any part of Scripture Is it not better then to rest only vpon that which both you and we acknowledge to be the word of God then to giue an infinite libertie to men of deuising what they wil to lay a grieuous burthē vpon our selues to beleeue vnder pain of damnation whatsoeuer they wil father vpō I know not what impossibilitie of erring Let him that hath eyes see though the blind delight in blindnesse The weaknesse of your principall Assumption concerning the insufficiencie of the Scriptures you striue to fortifie with this slender reason If there be diuers questions moued now a dayes touching substantiall matters which are not expresly set downe nor determined by onely expresse Scripture then the Scripture is not able to resolue all such doubts But there are diuers such questions Therefore the Scripture is not able to resolue all such doubts Ere I answer directly to your syllogisme I must note two things in the propounding of it First by whom the questions you speake of are moued If by Papists it is the shame and sinne of your Church to suffer idle and needlesse questions to be moued of which there can be no determination but by a Councel to be held no man knoweth how many yeares hence euer or neuer If you say these questions are set on foote by vs all the world may discerne your vntruth For we are certainly perswaded that it is not lawfull to accept any doctrine as a point of faith which cannot be proued by the Scriptures But you will say We thinke they are determinable by Scripture though indeed they be not At the least then answer the proofes we bring out of Scripture and on our part the controuersie is ended You wil reply that we will not be answered but interprete Scripture as we list Who sees not that this is a meere slander since we stand not vpon any priuate reuelations but on those rules of interpretation which the fathers according to the light of true reason haue left vs as it were by legacy But this reply is also otherwise insufficient For whereas you yeeld as appeares by this reason that some things may be determined by Scripture this obiection denies that any point of doctrine whatsoeuer can be resolued of by it because if that you say be true we wil in all cases interprete Scripture as we please Secondly I obserue another point in respect of the time If the questions you meane be such as were neuer moued till now and the Scripture neuer failed in any former doubts which seems to be implied in that speech Now a dayes me thinkes there is no shew of reason to imagine that so many and so capitall heresies for the space of 1500 years should be refuted and ouerthrowne by Scriptures and now at the last matters of lesse importance and yet as you say very substantiall should haue no meanes of satisfaction by the like course Doubtlesse if the Scripture hath hitherto bene sufficient it is no small wrong to suspect and accuse it now of insufficiencie especially in very substantiall matters necessary to be beleeued Now concerning your syllogisme I denie the consequence of your propositiō What is the Scripture so poore and weake that it can determine nothing which is not expresly set downe
any regard or knowledge of their being sent by the true Church This weake minor of yours is vnderpropt in each part with a pillar of the holy Scripture the former thus No sensuall man can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries Euery man without faith is a sensuall man Therefore no man without faith can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries If by obtaining the knowledge of diuine mysteries you meane assenting to the truth of God concerning saluation I grant your whole syllogisme and in this sense it was needlesse to proue that part of your minor In the other sense that a man cannot attaine to the knowledge of them but by faith which the words manifestly import I denie the maior for the reason before alledged but whatsoeuer your meaning be the Apostle saith no more but that a naturall man without the grace of God can neither once imagine any such meanes of saluation and other there is none nor acknowledge those meanes as true and sufficient Of the former the Apostle speakes in the ninth verse affirming that the means of saluation prepared by God for men are such as neither eye hath seen nor eare hath heard nor euer entred into any mans heart Of the latter is the place alledged by you where the word signifieth rather an approuing and receiuing then a perceiuing and the spirituall man whom he there opposeth to the naturall is said to discerne of spirituall things rather by acknowledging the truth of them then by vnderstanding the meaning of the word preached concerning them Your translation which I touched before where you terme hominem animalem a sensuall man is senslesse For who knowes not that by a sensuall man we meane a voluptuous man giuen vp to his pleasures and sensualitie But the Apostle speakes not of such onely but euen of the wisest and most vertuous that euer were amongst men without grace so that in his meaning as well temperate Xenocrates and learned Aristotle called for his knowledge natures darling vertuous Socrates and wise Solon as Sardanapalus Thersites Nero and such like are naturall men that is such as haue no grace of God but that shadow of it which remaineth in all men by nature and is helped by education and humane learning It is true that Animalis naturalis is not all one in nature yet doth Naturall better expresse the Apostles meaning then sensuall and generally all writers haue made an opposition in this sense betwixt Nature and Grace not betwixt Sensualnesse and Grace as you may see throughout Austins Prospers Ieromes and your owne Schoolemens writings Neither will it helpe the matter to say as you doe that Naturall wit in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses For sensuall signifieth not him that vseth his senses to the vnderstanding of this or that but him that is drowned in Sensualitie Besides naturall wit doth not vse the helpe of the outward senses alwaies in vnderstanding yea there are many and the most excellent pointes of Philosophie in which Sense hath nothing to doe as in the discourse of Reason and the knowledge of Logicke with all those hard and worthie Questions of the Soule and of God himselfe as farre as they are to be conceiued of by the light of nature If you will say that we learne these things partly by reading and hearing I aunswer both that we finde out many things in Philosophie of our selues by studie without anie helpe of Sense which rather is an hinderance to the soule in the search of such pointes and also that the knowledge we haue of diuine mysteries is first brought to vs and continually increased in vs by the same Senses of seeing and hearing else were your Church as good be without those preachers you so much brag of The other part of your Minor that faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church you prooue or rather endeauour to prooue in this sort If no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach except he be sent then Faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church But no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach without he be sent Therefore faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church I denie the consequence of your Maior and affirme that faith may be had without the teaching of the true Church though no man can beleeue without he heare c. For I haue shewed that some countries haue bene brought to beleefe without any such teaching by authoritie from the true Church I also referre the Reader to my answer to your Minor That place of the Apostle concerneth not the ordinarie ministerie of the word but the knowledge of the means of saluation which as the Apostle truly saith could neuer haue bene thought on by any man if it had not pleased God to giue notice thereof to the world by men appointed and authorised to that purpose by himselfe But of this place and matter I spake sufficiently before in this and in a former chapter A. D. §. 4. Thirdly true faith is included in the true Church and as it were enclosed in her belly as Saint Austin saith vpon those words of the Psalme Errauerunt ab vtero loquuti sunt falsa In ventre Ecclesiae saith he veritas manet quisquis ab hoc ventre separatus fuerit necesse est vt falsa loquatur Truth remaineth in the belly of the Church whosoeuer is separated to wit by difference in doctrine from this belly of the Church must needs speake false Therefore like as if a man had Gold in his belly we must first finde the man before we can come to see the gold it selfe so we must first by other markes finde out the true Church which hath the gold of true faith hidden in her belly before we come to see the gold of true faith it selfe Sith especially we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it vnto vs and that we cannot being spiritually blinde certainely know it to be true and not counterfeit but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it According as the same Saint Austin saith Euangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae authoritas commouerer I should not beleeue the Gospell it selfe vnlesse I were mooued by the authoritie of the Church For if we had not the testimonie of the Church how should we haue bene infallibly sure that there were any Gospell at all Or how should we haue knowen that those bookes which â—eare title of the Gospell according to Saint Mathew Marke Luke and Iohn are true Canonicall Scripture rather then those bookes which are written in the name of Nicodemus and Saint Thomas bearing the same title or inscription of Gospell A. W. Your third reason is thus to be framed That which is shut vp in the belly
of God Now the same Church or partie which assureth vs that the Gospell is true may notwithstanding erre in the meaning of some points in it and a man may discerne these errours by the light which shineth in the Scriptures thus acknowledged First it is here confessed by your selfe that Austins speach is not of all fundamentall points of true doctrine but onely as I said of knowing the Scripture to be the word of God for so onely you reason out of it and thereby shew plainly to all that will see that it cannot prooue the matter for which you brought it Secondly you proceed farther to prooue the point by an other reason but faultie like the former If say you without the testimonie of the Church we could not haue bene infallibly sure that there is any Gospell at all nor haue knowne that the Gospels of Matthew Marke Luke and Iohn are true Canonicall Scripture rather then those of Nicodemus and Saint Thomas then we cannot know true doctrine to be true but by giuing credit to the Churches testimonie of it But we could not haue knowne those things without the testimonie of the Church Therefore we cannot know true doctrine to be true but by giuing credit to the Churches testimonie of it A man that is so full of his compound syllogismes as you are might learne to make better consequences in his Maior then you commonly bring vs. Let vs grant you that we could not know that there is any Gospell or which is the Gospell without the testimonie of the Church All that will follow thereupon is this that we cannot know these two points of doctrine to be true without giuing credit to the testimonie of the Church Yea if I were disposed to trouble you I would yet farther denie your said consequence because though we cannot know these matters without the Churches testimonie yet we might know them without resting vpon the Churches authoritie For the testimonie of the Church may be had by the ministerie thereof without any such absolute authoritie of enioyning beleefe or giuing credit to that she affirmeth as an vndoubted truth This Minor as the former in this chapter consisteth of two parts and is false in both of them as I will shew particularly First you say that without the testimonie of the Church we could not haue bene infallibly sure that there is any Gospell Your meaning is that we could not haue knowne this certainely but by giuing credit to the report of the Church as a certaine truth First for the doctrine of the Gospell to saluation it hath bene had and may be had without any testimonie of the Church at all taking the testimonie of the Church as you do for the preaching of men publickly authorised to this dutie by a companie of men so qualified as you before describe your Church I shall need no better proofe then to put you in minde againe of those nations many and great who attained to faith and saluation by the teaching of the Apostles seuerally without any such argument of the Churches absolute authority Secondly taking the Gospell for the 4. bookes of the Euangelists I answer that there may be true faith true Churches without the knowledge of those bookes yea without the verie being of them as it is manifest by the former example many thousands being conuerted and many Churches setled without the knowledge and before the publishing or penning of them But to come to the verie point I answer further that it is a grosse absurditie to make men beleeue that there can be no certaine knowledge had that there is any Gospell but by giuing credit to the Church whereas no man can know that there is any such authoritie in the Church or any Church at all but by the authoritie of the Scripture It is more then ridiculous for me to beleeue that there is a companie of men infallibly taught of God which is the truth with authority to enioyne obedience to all men in whatsoeuer they will teach if I haue no better proofe of it then their owne word For since God hath indued man with reason it is both simplenesse and sinne for him to beleeue that which is vtterly against the light of reason if he haue no warrant from God so to do But warrant he can haue none to beleeue such a conceit of any company but from the scriptures as it is euident by your own course who make a place of scripture the ground of your whole disputation Therefore whereas you teach men first to know the Church and then by the Church the Scriptures we say this course is vtterly vnwarrantable hauing no foundation either in reason or reuelation Yea contrariwise we truly affirme that the Scripture must first be knowne at the least in that point of the authoritie of the Church and then the Church by the Scripture And this is Austins iudgement directly Let vs not heare saith he this I say this you say but let vs heare this saith the Lord. There are the Lords bookes to the authoritie of which both of vs consent both of vs giue credit both of vs yeeld obedience there let vs seek the Church there let vs discusse our question And afterward I will not haue the Church to be shewed by mens doctrines but by the Oracles of God And againe Let vs seeke the Church in the Canonicall Scriptures The like speeches are euerie where in that booke Whether we be schismaticks or you saith the same Austin let neither you nor me but Christ be asked that he may shew vs his Church But where shall we know what our Sauiour saith concerning his Church and how he would haue it knowne but in the Scriptures Yet I denie not that the ministerie of men is necessarie to giue notice that there are certaine bookes in which it hath pleased God to reueale the meanes of saluation to mankinde though I acknowledge not any authority in the Church whereby men should be bound to beleeue this their report when as yet they are ignorant that there is any such Church You will say then what shall we doe or how shall we know that there is any Gospell If you will giue me leaue I will shew you what course is to be takē When you vnderstand that there hath bin and is still an opinion that there are certaine bookes written by Gods authoritie and appointment to teach men the way to saluation do as any reasonable man would do in a matter of such importance Get the bookes reade and studie them with a true desire to see whether they be such as they are reported to be or no. And because thou knowest by nature that there is a God and that he onely is all-sufficient to discouer the truth of his owne purpose touching the estate of his creature call vpon him though in ignorance and weaknesse that it would please him to direct thee in this enquiry after the means of thy saluation
as you taught vs before of necessitie to saluation that we beleeue entirely all points of faith without misbeleeuing any one what hope of saluation shall be left to any Papist who cannot by any meanes know what is determined by the Church and what is not Or if he may be sure that matters defined by the Pope and a Councell are decided by the Church yet since it is not so determined whether the Pope alone be sufficient to determine of points in controuersie he may refuse to obey some constitutions of the Pope or to beleeue some questions decided by him and thereby shut himselfe out of heauen for not giuing credit to the determination of the Church if that authoritie of determining be in the Pope and he commaund men so to beleeue But if this determination of the Church be ioyntly in the Pope and Councels and that nothing is a matter of faith but that which is so determined to be then was there almost no matter of faith at all in the Church till within these last 800 yeares For it is more then euident to any man that will not be wilfully contentious that the Pope neuer bare any extraordinarie sway in Councels till he had proclaimed himselfe vniuersall Bishop which was by the grant of the murtherer Phocas six hundred yeares after the beginning of the Gospell What shall we thinke of the Churches in the Apostles times and so forward till the Councell of Nice in which the Popes supremacie was not heard of Had Christians then no matters of faith to beleeue How should they if all depend vpon the Pope and a general Councel Let me grant that those Councels in the Acts were generall what was there determined but that the Gentiles were to abstaine from things offered to Idols and bloud and that which is strangled and from fornication VVas nothing a matter of faith but these few points which also till this time were not matters of faith Either shew some good reason why matters of faith were not at this time of the Apostles liuing to be tied to generall Councels and the Pope yet now must be or confesse the truth to the glorie of God that matters of faith haue their authoritie to be matters of faith from the word of God and not from the determination of Pope or Councell or both Neither thinke to shift of the matter by saying they are indeed matters of faith in themselues but not to vs. For so it will come to passe that we shall say the first Christians had no points that were matters of faith to them because they had none determined by the Church in a Councell which opinion is I know not whether of more absurditie or impietie Now that you agreement in matters of faith after the determination of the Church is not so great as you would make the world beleeue it may appeare by the verie ground of religion the Canon of the Scripture which was determined of by your iudgement in the Councell of Carthage wherein the Apocryphall bookes say you were allowed for Canonical yet saith Bellarmine Nicholas Lyra Denys the Carthusiā Hugo de sancto victore Thomas de Vio both these at least the last Cardinals follow Ierom in reiecting thē as Apocryphal But if this Councel may be excepted against sure in your iudgment the Councell of Trent may not which hath receiued those books into the canō of the scripture Yet for all that Sixtus Senensis keeper of the Popes library maketh bold to deny thē such authority euen since that Coūcel as Bellarmine himself confesseth And Arias Montanus since that time doubteth not to say that the Orthodoxe or true Church following the Canon of the Hebrewes accounteth those bookes of the old Testament written in Greeke to be Apocryphal What say you to your Bishop Catharin who being one of the Councell of Trent after the determination of the Councell against assurance of saluation defendeth that such assurance notwithstanding that decree of the Councell may ordinarily be had by them that beleeue You would perswade vs that it is a ruled case of your Church long ago that the Scriptures are not sufficient without tradition What saith Scotus in this case Whatsoeuer pertaineth to heauenly and supernaturall knowledge and is necessarie to be knowne of men in this life is sufficiently deliuered in the holy scriptures The holy scripture saith Gerson is sufficient for the gouernment of the Church or else was Christ an vnperfect Lawgiuer I might runne on in the like course touching other points but these shal serue for a tast and so I passe ouer to your proofe that the learned on your side cannot possibly dissent one from another They which acknowledge that the definitiue sentence of the Pope is to be rested vpon as an vndoubted truth cannot possibly dissent in matters of faith But all Catholick learned men acknowledge that the Popes sentence is such Therefore no Catholicke learned men can possibly dissent in matters of faith All you conclude is that in matters determined by the Pope and a Councell your learned men cannot disagree because they hold that such a determination is certainly true yet for all this as I haue shewed your Church may be rent in peeces with contrarie opinions in matters of as great moment as most are in religion if for all this it cease not to be a true Church why should not the Protestants haue the like priuiledge who haue the same opinion of the Scriptures that you haue of the Pope Be not so iniurious to reason or blasphemous against God as to auouch that no controuersie can be ended by the word because diuers men will expound it diuersly For it is contrarie both to religion and sense to imagine that the Lord would giue his people such a Scripture as cannot be certainely vnderstood in all points necessarie to saluation but by I know not what reuelation to some one man More particularly I denie your Maior They that acknowledge such an authoritie in the Pope may yet differ in opinion about matters of faith I bring you example in that point of assurance wherein Catharin disputed against that doctrine which Sotus and your writers generally since the Councell of Trent affirme to haue bene the certaine decree of the Councell Yet were they both present in the Councell and none of the meanest there assembed The reason of that their dissent and the possibilitie of the like betwixt other men ariseth from this that decrees of Councels and Popes being set downe in writing may be diuersly interpreted and so the meaning of them mistaken as Catharin saith that he foresaw some men would misunderstand the Councell of Trent in that point This is all the inconueniences you can alledge in admitting the Scripture for Iudge and this followeth the decrees of Councels and Popes at the least as much as the writings of the holy Ghost
take away lothing But as he addeth in those places which are plaine in the Scriptures all those matters are found which containe faith and good manners that is hope and charitie This is that which Marsilius of Padua aboue 800 years since disputed against the Pope That the Gospel was very sufficient perfect cleare of it self that by it we may be directed immediatly concerning and in all things which belong to a mans obteyning of euerlasting life and auoiding miserie As in the former propertie hauing propounded your matter against the Scripture you reason only against the English translation so in this that one may be some what sutable to the other being to speake of the obscuritie of the Scripture you shew that it is hard to one kinde onely viz vnlearned men though you helpe the matter a little afterward by auouching the hardnesse of it euen to the learned also The Scriptures say you are not the rule of faith Why so Because they are hard to be vnderstood of those vnlearned mē that cannot reade them Is not the teaching of the Church whereto you ascribe so much vnpossible to be vnderstood by them that cannot heare Is it therefore no sufficient rule But the Scripture is not so hard as you imagine no not to them that cannot reade as long as they may heare it read and haue care to vnderstand and remember what they heare Yea there are many in England that know neuer a letter on the booke who notwithstanding are able to giue a better sense of many places of Scripture then some of your Masse-priests that can read their whole Portuise Seruice booke Idle therefore and ridiculous is your example of a man lockt vp with a Bible since by hearing it read though himselfe cannot read he may attaine to more knowledge then many of your blinde guides haue who for all their skill in reading vnderstand neuer a word of their Epistles Gospels which they daily say at Masse like prating parrots Now for your conclusions inferred hereupon the first as I haue shewed is false that any such entire and infallible faith is necessarie so that without it a man cannot be saued the second of the meanes without which such a faith cannot be had is ordinarily true the third which denies the Scripture alone to be such a meanes is either false and not prooued by you or nothing to the purpose Can any man truely say that God hath not prouided sufficient meanes for euerie mans saluation because some men are vnable to reade the Scriptures which are those meanes Hath not God done his part in making all men capable to reade though many neglect to learne Therefore if the Scripture be sufficient for all mens instruction as I haue prooued it to be for all your supposed obscurity God cannot be charged with want of care because men are carelesse to vse the meanes of their owne saluation But if by Scripture alone you meane Scripture without any helpe of man all you say is besides the matter For no man euer was so foolish as to make Scripture alone in that sense either the rule of faith or a meanes of any good whatsoeuer vnlesse perhaps you Papists according to the rest of your superstition in Agnus Deis hallowed Granes and such like may haue a conceit as those priests of whom an ancient writer speaketh had that a part of the Gospell hung about ones necke may be a preseruatiue against I know not what bodily or ghostly danger You haue vndertaken to prooue that the scriptures are not the rule of faith because they are hard to be vnderstood Their hardnesse in respect of the ignorant was auowed by you onely against those that cannot reade Now for the learned you tel vs that they cannot by onely reading the Scriptures be infallibly sure that they rightly vnderstand them What then Therefore can they not at all be sure Because reading onely will not assure them therefore is there no meanes whereby they may be assured Call to minde what I alledged before out of Ambrose Origen Chrysostome and Austin who doubt not to assure men that they may come to the vnderstanding of the Scripture if they will vse the meanes of praier and diligence Whom shall we beleeue These worthies of the Church speaking also vpon manifold experience or you whom we know not so much as by sight or name If you can so farre bewitch any of your owne poore ignorant soules yet sure ther is no man of any indifferent good iudgment that will be carried away with this your simple authoritie against the ioynt consent of those famous Diuines But you will adde reason to your authoritie let vs heare it It may be say you they ought to be vnderstood otherwise Therefore they cannot be sure they rightly vnderstand Tell me I pray you for my better instruction whether you make this doubt of all places of scripture or of some onely It will not sinke into my head that you doe so much condemne the scripture of obscuritie that you thinke no one place of it can be certainely vnderstood Nay it is vnpossible you should so despise the iudgment of those I named er while or condemne your owne capacitie as to denie that many texts of scripture are so euident that a childe cannot mistake the meaning of them Then that antecedent It may be they ought to vnderstand otherwise in some places of scripture can haue no place Let vs limit it that the truth may appeare Some places of scripture are so hard that a man may vnderstand them otherwise then in truth they are to be vnderstood This proposition is out of all question what wil you conclude hereupon That men cannot be sure they rightly vnderstand these places I grant this too Therefore these doubtfull places are not to be made the foundation of our faith but as Austin saith We must rest vpon those places of scripture which are verie manifest that by them the harder may be expounded But admit there were diuers texts of scripture which can by no meanes be certainly vnderstood which yet for my part sauing other mens better iudgement I do not thinke to be true because God hath appointed euerie syllable of the scripture for our instruction in this life but admit I say there were such places yet would it not follow hereupon that because those texts cannot be vnderstood therefore the scripture is so obscure that it cannot be the rule of faith For there may be sufficient means of saluation plainly discouered in the scriptures though these places be not vnderstood yea it may be and it is verie likely that the verie same things which in these places are signified are otherwhere in scripture apparently set downe You will say this prooueth that the scripture is obscure in some places VVho euer denied it But this doth not prooue that it is hard to be vnderstood in those points that are necessary to saluation Remember I denied
the whole volume of the Bible which to say were no lesse thē blasphemy But I am afraid the scriptures that Paul there speaks of which were the books of the old Testamēt are rather vnprofitable thē profitable to that purpose For they often amplify magnify the word of God written in so plaine termes that eueuery man may vnderstand them as for the authority you fancy to your selfe they speake either nothing or little and that very obscurely thereof But we shall see in the rest of your Treatise what proofe you can finde of this authoritie in Moses and the Prophets and the writers of the olde Testament Now at the last you remember your selfe againe and returne to your old shift of Scripture alone Which you deuised of your owne head that you might haue somewhat to confute It is not all one say you to be profitable and to be of it selfe alone sufficient And you tel vs This is certaine Who euer denied it Or who but he that wanted matter to replie against would cast such doubts Especially who would haue wasted time and paper to prooue or declare a thing so certaine and cleare by a needlesse comparison The scripture without any doctrines of men call them what you will imagine what assistance of the spirit you list is sufficient to teach all men the true certaine way to saluation This is that we affirme not as you ridiculously slander vs that there needs no ministerie of man for the instructing of any one in the vnderstanding of any place of scripture or knowledge of any point of religion These are your owne fancies or mōsters rather with which like bugbeares you scare your poore seduced followers and bleare the eies of the ignorant that they may not enquire what we teach indeed but hate our doctrine before they any way vnderstand it But they that haue any care of their owne saluation will not suffer themselues to be led by you hoodwinkt to destruction if any man will needs be wilfully ignorant the Lord shall require his blood at his owne hands we haue done our duetie in teaching and proouing the truth A. D. CHAP. VIII That no naturall wit or learning can be the rule of faith A. W. If you had bestowed that paines and time in confirming your proposition which you waste needlesly in proouing that which no man denieth you might perhaps haue spoken somewhat more to the purpose but it is lost labour to go about the refutatiō of that which besides your selfe no body euer thought on That naturall wit or learning should be the rule of faith is a conceit amongst Christians neuer heard of yet this haue you propounded for to exercise your strength vpon A. D. §. 1. The second conclusion is that no one mans naturall wit and learning neither any company of men neuer so learned onely as they are learned men not infallibly assisted by the holy Spirit of God can either by interpreting Scripture or otherwise be this rule of faith A. W. Here you set out the former proposition more at large in respect of the Antecedent or first part of it Neither any one mans naturall wit nor many mens ioyned together whatsoeuer their learning be or what course soeuer they take as naturall men can be the rule of faith either for any doctrine they shal deliuer or for any interpretation they shall make of Scripture But what needeth all this adoe you do but fight with your owne shadow yet let vs se how you haue bestirred your selfe A. D. §. 2. This I prooue Because all this wit and learning be it neuer so exquisite or rare is humane naturall and fallible and therefore it cannot be a sufficient foundation whereupon to build a diuine supernaturall and infallible faith This reason I confirme Because whatsoeuer a man neuer so wittie and learned propoundeth to others to be beleeued vpon the onely credit of his word wit or humane studie and learning it can haue no more certaintie then is this his word wit and learning But these being all naturall and humane are subiect to errour and deceit For Omnis homo mendax there is no man but he may both deceiue and be deceiued and may if he haue no other helpe but of nature and industrie both be deceiued in thinking that to be Gods word which is not or that to be the true meaning and sense of Gods word which is not and may also deceiue others whilest being too confident of his wit and learning he presumeth to teach others these his erroneous opinions Therefore the beleefe which shall be built vpon such a mans word and teaching is or may be a false beleefe and alwaies is vncertaine and fallible and therefore can neuer be a true Diuine and Christian faith which alwaies is most certaine and infallible And this which I haue said of the wit and learning of one particular man may also be applied to prooue against the wit and learning of any companie of men hauing no assistance but their owne naturall gifts and industrie of studie or reading A. W. No humane naturall and fallible thing can be the rule of faith Naturall wit and learning though neuer so exquisite are humane naturall and fallible Therefore no humane wit nor learning can be the rule of faith I grant this reason and conclusion to be sound and true onely in the confirmation of it I finde some occasion to note one thing for the better vnderstanding of the matter we haue in hand If any man would speake for naturall wit and learning in this question he would not say as the matter is here propounded that any mans wit or learning were the rule of faith but that the wit and learning of man might finde out somewhat at least in the Scripture whereupon faith might safely be grounded For example as I said once before though it be not written any where in the Scripture that there are three persons distinct each from other and all these three but one God yet may a man by naturall wit and learning gather this out of the Scripture and confirme it thence so plainely and certainly that any Christian may holde those points as Articles of faith Not that they are to be taken for such vpon the onely credit of his word which is a second thing wherein you mistake the matter but because though euerie man be a lier yet a man may see and shew a truth which cannot nor may be suspected of falshood or errour And a beleefe builded vpon Doctrine so taught shall be free from possibilitie of erring and as you speake infallible This I thought good to obserue by occasion of your confirmation where you suppose that a man deliuereth matters to be beleeued vpon the bare credit of his word by reason of his wit and learning In this sense it is out of all question that no naturall wit or learning of any many or all the men in the world can be the rule of faith but
the Church is of infallible and vndoubted truth and that the way not to be deceiued in an obscure question is to aske and follow the iudgement of the Church Wherefore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam I beleeue the Catholicke Church and worthily also may I conclude that neither Scripture alone nor naturall wit and learning nor priuate spirit nor any other thing but onely the teaching of the true Church of Christ is that ordinarie meanes which Almightie God hath prouided whereby all men may learne that one infallible entire faith which I proued to be necessarie to saluation A. W. Saint Paul doth worthily call the Church the pillar and ground of truth but not as you would haue vs beleeue because it is the rule of faith The Greeke Scholiast taketh that speech of the Apostle to be vttered by way of comparison betwixt the Church of Christ and the Iewish Temple Not as the Iewish Temple saith Oecumenius but the pillar and ground of truth for the Temple was the ground of the shadowes of the truth Out of which we may gather that as the Iewish synagogue was the pillar and ground of those shadowes of the truth so is the Church of Christ the pillar and ground of the truth it selfe But that synagogue was not the rule of faith in that point because whatsoeuer it taught was to be held for infallible truth but for that to it were committed the oracles of God and the knowledge and vse of those ceremonies so hath the Church of Christ the truth of doctrine in the scripture and the exercises of Gods worship and religion Therfore is it called the pillar and ground of it because it constantly maintaineth that truth preaching and professing it in despight of all the practises and power of Satan and tyrants of the world As the thighs saith an ancient writer sustaine and beare vp the weight of the whole bodie so also the Apostles like pilars valiantly carry the vniuersall Church of Christians ouer the whole world being for the value of their inuincible courage and stedfastnesse of their holy purpose called marble pillars And a litle after They preached the Gospell with such wisedome and constancie that as if they had bene of marble or adamant they were afraid of no violence nor aduersitie but always continuing firme and inuincible against all the forces of men and diuels shining as it were in the darke by that light of their wisedome by preaching admonishing teaching and glistering with miracles at the last they most happily became conquerors To this effect speake your Glosses The ground of the truth of the Gospell which the Church constantly maintained euen in the greatest persecutions Well vpholding the truth in it self saith another Glosse That it may not fall to the ground though it be afflicted saith Lombard But let vs bring your reason into due frame The pillar and ground of truth is the rule of faith The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church is the rule of faith Your proposition or maior is false vnlesse you restraine it as I haue often said to the truth and then it is so far the rule of faith as it is the pillar and ground of truth Whatsoeuer it holdeth truly according to the scripture is the rule of faith for those points not because of the Churches authoritie but for the truth of the doctrine Yet may it easily come to passe that a Church maintaining the generall truth of the Gospell and all particulars necessary to soluation may faile in many other points of great importance and for all that continue both a true Church and the pillar and ground of truth though not the rule of faith Your minor also as you vnderstand it is vntrue First because the Apostle speaketh not of any such companie as you imagine Pope Bishop Councell but either of the Church of Ephesus in which Timothie to whom he writeth then abode or indefinitely of any and euery Church whatsoeuer where the true Religion of our Sauiour is or shall be professed according to the Gospell If Timothie were as you will not denie Bishop of Ephesus then it is apparent that the Apostle calleth the Church of Ephesus wherein Timothy liued taught and gouerned the pillar and ground of truth yet was it not the rule of faith for then had the rule of faith perished long since with that Church of Ephesus If he speake to him as to an Euangelist who was to follow him from place to place and to establish the Churches which the Apostle had planted then must euery one of those Churches wherein Timothy was to behaue himselfe as he had done in Ephesus be vnderstood to be the pillar and ground of truth and yet neither any nor all of them were the rule of faith which else must haue bene lost with them What remaines then Shall we expound it of all beleeuers in generall I grant it reacheth to all the faithfull but as to them considered in their seuerall Churches because among them so disposed of was Timothy to performe that dutie which the Apostle there enioyneth him But let vs so conceiue of the Church What shall it auaile you or endamage vs All beleeuers are not the companie you pleade for but onely the Pope and your Bishops whom you would haue taken for the rule of faith Secondly I denie your minor in respect of the sense you giue of those words the pillar and ground of truth For you so vnderstand them as if the truth of God depended vpon the verdict of the Church so that nothing may be held for truth but what the Church deliuereth for such and whatsoeuer she so propoundeth must so be receiued vpon paine of certaine damnation How contrary are you in this interpretation and doctrine to the auncient fathers The Apostles saith Irenaeus left vs the Scriptures to be the pillar and ground of our faith Nay say you they left vs the Church to be the pillar and ground of the Scriptures The Gospell and spirit of life saith the same father in the same booke is the pillar and ground of the Church Nay by your leaue reply you the Church is the pillar and ground of the Gospell But Chrysostome handling this place of the Apostle is not afraid to affirme that the truth is the pillar and ground of the Church not as if he would denie that which the Apostle saith for the Church indeed is the vpholder of the truth but to shew that although the Church maintaine and auow the truth yet it is built and founded vpon the truth which as Ierome saith vpholds the building Therfore to make short whē the Apostle saith that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth his meaning is that amongst Christians and among no other sort of men the truth is to be found and amongst and by them it is constantly and worthily
the world A man may finde in the Scriptures that the true Church of Christ shal neuer faile but which outward companie of men is this true Church no man by this marke of future continuance can by any meanes discerne Wherupon I conclude that your Catholicknesse is neither for the name nor for the thing any good marke of any true Church whatsoeuer That by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time should be signified you presume but proue not and yet I am perswaded you are not able to alledge any one ancient author but late Papists that by the Catholicke Church vnderstands a companie that hath bin alwayes since the beginning of the Christian Church and shall alwayes continue till the second comming of our Sauiour Christ I doubt not that the true Church spoken of in the Scripture and the creed hath so bin and shall be but I say that no man conceiues this propertie to be signified by the word Catholicke The ground of my opinion is that hauing found diuers reasons alledged by the Fathers why the Church is said to be Catholicke I could neuer light vpon that concerning the time Austin ordinarily restraines Catholicknes to place as also Optatus doth Pacianus where he purposely enquires the reason of the name neuer once mentions it no more doth Cyril who yet assignes sixe seuerall respects in which the Church may be said to be Catholicke And surely if by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time be signified I see no reason neither I thinke can you shew me any why it should not as well include the time before our Sauiours comming and so the Church of God that then was as that which hath bin since his comming and shall continue till the end of the world So doth Thomas vnderstand the Catholicknesse of the Church stretching it from Abels time to the end of the world But your great maister Bellarmine vtterly denies that the Church before our Sauiours comming was Catholicke restraining this Catholicknesse to the Church of the Christians But because I acknowledge the truth of the doctrine I will not striue about the word though you should haue prooued the sense of the word and not haue giuen too much credit to Bellarmine who brings a place of Austin to prooue that vniuersalitie of time is required to make the Church Catholicke whereas there is not a syllable or a letter touching that matter in the place alledged No more is there in that other place of Bede which also he brings but rather we may proue thence that Catholicke belongeth to place It is therefore called Catholicke saith Bede because it is edified in one and the same faith ouer all parts of the world In the sentence next before he speaketh thus Whence the Church is called Catholicke hee teacheth saying All the Churches through all Iewry Galilee and Samaria had peace So doth your Canon expound Catholicke so Durand though he adde also two other reasons of the name but not that you bring As for the place you quote to prooue a needlesse question what doth it concerne the visible Church being spoken as Ierome sheweth at large and prooueth out of the Apostle of the Church of the elect Iewes or at the most of the elect in generall Before I examine that which you haue here deliuered touching the Catholicknes of the Church in respect of place I hold it very needfull to consider what was intended by the name Catholicke and how it hath bin vnderstood of auncient writers And because this latter point may be a meanes to giue vs some light for the discerning of the former I will begin with it in the first place Whether the word were in vse in the time of the Apostles or no so that any man was called a Catholicke Pacianus seems to stand in some doubt yet he lets it passe as granted that no man was then so called Once it is out of all doubt that it is no where in the Scriptures applied to any church or to any man or at all vsed As for the title Catholicke giuen to the Epistles of Iames Peter the first of Iohn and Iude it came not from the holy Ghost the inditer of those Epistles but was added afterwards by some man when the bookes of the new Testament were gathered together into one volume which may better appeare by the titles of the other Epistles also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. of Saint or holy Paul which inscription questionlesse neuer was of the Apostles owne setting downe That which I would haue obserued is that this name Catholicke was deuised and applied to the Church not by God in the Scriptures but by man and therefore it is of lesse importance and more vncertaintie yet no doubt not giuen at aduenture but vpon good ground and to good purpose For the original of it it is Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through the whole or all which we commonly call by two Latin names vniuersall or generall so that the Catholicke Church and the generall or vniuersall Church are all one To auow the antiquitie of this title giuen to the church the confession of faith which is commonly called the Apostles creede may be alledged wherin we professe that we beleeue the holy Catholick Church That this creed is very ancient it is out of question but that it was penned or indited by the Apostles themselues we haue no certaine proofe But to leaue this point and to returne again to the meaning of the words Catholick Church the auncientest authors in whom I finde them for they are not in Dionysius Ignatius Martialis Polycarpus nor in Iustine Irenaeus Tertullian Origen or any man within the first 200. years are Clemens Alexandr about the yeare 200. and Cyprian about the yeare 250. After them it grew very common especially in the Latin Church Cyprian himselfe hath not that I know of any where deliuered the reason of that title Catholick But Pacianus Bishop of Barcelona in Spaine purposely disputeth the question against Symproniā a Nouatian heretick assigning two reasons of the name in this sort If saith he I must giue a reason of the word Catholicke and expresse the Greeke in Latine Catholicke is euery where one or as the learneder thinke obedience to all Gods commmandements so that by his interpretation the Catholicke Church must be the company of them who in all places here and there professe one faith and liue in obedience to all the commandements of God This vnitie of true faith the Emperors respected Valentinian Gratian and Theodosius when they commanded that all they should be called Catholicks who follow the faith that S. Peter deliuered to the Church of Rome To this purpose is that of Cyril where he saith The Church is called Catholicke because it teacheth all things necessary to be knowne This interpretation of the word and reason of the title the Donatists gaue saying that the
end of the world professing the true faith and being built vpon Christ vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles If then we restraine the Catholicknesse of the Church to vniuersalitie of place wherein as we haue seene persons are also contained The Catholicke Church is nothing else but the companie of the elect taken now ordinarily not onely out of the Iewes as heretofore till the comming of our Sauiour but also out of all nations and people whatsoeuer If we stretch it farther to vniuersalitie of time also which can hardly be prooued out of the ancient writers it comprehendeth all the elect that haue bene are and shall be from the beginning of the world to the end thereof And thus much of the Catholicke Church concerning the meaning and reason of the word Now to your proofe as it lieth not by way of refutation but of explication We grant as I haue said often that the Church is common to all people and places not shut vp any longer within the land of Iewry nor appropriated to the Iews and we condemne them of error who teach as sometimes the Donatists Rogatians did that it is enclosed in Affrick or Europe or Asia or America or any of these and not common to euerie one of them aswell as to any of them But this is not so to be vnderstood as if the Church of Christ must needs be in all these or many of these at once in any one time It is enough that we acknowledge the vniuersality of it de iure thogh we denie it to be here or there de facto To speake plaine it belōgeth to the nature of the Church of Christ to haue all places open to it it is no more tied to Rome or Ierusalem then it is to London or Paris yea it hath spred it selfe ouer the face of the whole earth and hath bene or shall be in euerie particular countrie but this largenesse hath not bene nor perhaps shall be at any one time but by succession as it hath pleased God to affoord the meanes of the Gospell and giue a blessing to it sometimes in one place sometimes in an other as your selfe presently acknowledge But this doth not prooue that it is a marke to know the Church by This reason of the name Catholicke is a mere deuise of your owne and without warrant of antiquitie I say more it is false too vnderstanding it as you do not of the Church of the elect but of a companie of men making knowne profession of the true faith For in the beginning when the Church of Christ was as pure and as glorious as euer it was since it stretched not it selfe beyond the borders of Iewrie but was for a time shut vp within the walles of Ierusalem till the Lord by Herods persecution made way for it to passe into all the world From that time forward it grew mightily and setled it selfe in many countries yea it ceased not to multiply till the reuealing of Antichrist who by little and little corrupted the truth of doctrine euen in the fundamentall points and so destroyed the Church of God out of these parts of the world where it had florished some hundreds of yeares Yet was not the world left without a true Church no not in these westerne countries but such was the state of it as that it remained in a few chosen seruants of God who were hidden like those fifties in Israel from the eies of your rauenous wolues the bloudthirsty Cleargy of your Romish Synagogue Saint Austin in that booke you alledge had to do with the Donatists who insolently and wickedly rent themselues from the vnion of all the christian Churches then in the world allowing no other Church of Christ but that faction of their owne in a part of Africa They neither could nor did charge the Churches which they condemned with any grosse error in doctrine but confidently affirmed without all ground of truth or likelihood of reason that the Churches planted by the Apostles were vanished out of the world for supply whereof I know not by what miracle their Church forsooth sprung vp vpon a sodaine in that corner of Africa This ridiculous conceit of theirs Austin refuteth by shewing that the Church is to be sought and found in the Scriptures and not in the deuises and dreames of men Let vs not heare saith Austin this I say this you say but let vs heare this saith the Lord The Lords bookes are to be had to the authoritie whereof both of vs consent both giue credit both of vs obey There let vs seeke the Church there let vs trie our cause And a little after I will not haue the Church shewed me by mens deuises but by the Oracles of God And againe afterward when the hereticks expound the performance of the promise made to Abraham Thy seed shall be as the sand of the sea and as the Starres of heauen as if it had bene fulfilled in Donatus and his companie Austin answereth Reade vs this out of the Law out of the Prophets out of the Psalmes out of the Gospell it selfe out of the Apostles writings reade it and we beleeue it This foundation being laid in the fiue first chapters Austin proceedeth to prooue the vniuersalnesse of continuance of the Church out of the Scriptures out of the old Testament in the three next chapters out of the new in the test So that the argument you speake of beginneth at the sixt chapter the Maior or propositiō is in the first chapters to the sixt the Assumption or Minor in the other that follow But because you leaue those three chapters that shew what the Church should be out of the old Testament I will follow your course and begin at the ninth where Austin sheweth that the Church was to begin at Ierusalem and so to passe into Samaria and from thence to spread it selfe through the whole world To this he bringeth in the Donatists thus answering These things say they we beleeue and confesse that they are fulfilled but afterward the world fell away and onely Donatus companie remained VVhat doth Austin replie Let them reade this to vs saith Austin as they reade of Enoch of Noe of Abraham Isaac and Iacob and of the Tribes which remained the rest rending themselues away and of the twelue Apostles who continued faithfull when all other fell away These examples the Donatists had brought to countenāce their schisme Austin willeth them to prooue their stedfastnesse when all other Churches failed by the same Scriptures which were to beare witnesse of those whom they alledged He goeth forward to refute other arguments of theirs in the chapter following still pressing them with this that they should shew out of the Scriptures that the Church founded by the Apostles was to vanish away and their faction onely to remaine sincere This was his course and indeed what other course could he haue taken The hereticks as before I
this possibilitie tooke effect in me I may thanke my selfe more then God so that by this doctrine the glorie of euerie particular mans saluation is more due to the partie saued then to God the Sauiour Now on the contrarie side if that we teach be true the losse falles on mans part and not vpon Gods Is any man drawne out of the Iawes of hell and damnation The whole glorie redounds to God It was he that prouided meanes of saluation it was he that gaue me in particular knowledge of that meanes It was he that when I was as vntoward and vnwilling to be saued as the most damned reprobate wrought me to beleeue can I euer be vnmindfull or vnthankfull by inclining my heart to like and accept of his grace and faith in Christ But in the meane while I loose the commendation and the glory of vsing the grace of God well by my free-will O Adam Adam earth and ashes how fast doth that pride of nature whereby thou wast destroyed in thy selfe though in thee it were not naturall cleaue to euerie one of thy posteritie We had rather be thought able to gouerne our selues then be gouerned by God It is more pleasing to vs to hazard our saluation vpon the nice choise of our owne free-will then to be assured of it by the mercie of God working in vs this choise to will O that as we are all partakers of Adams pride so we might also partake with his repentance and faith Would Adam trow ye if it might be put to his choise againe venture vpon his owne free-will though he were as pure as euer he was rather then rest secure vpon Gods almightie and most certaine protection No no blessed soule he knoweth by wofull experience though by Gods vnspeakable goodnesse to his and our greater glorie that he and he only is out of danger who resignes himselfe into Gods hands to be disposed of at his gracious pleasure Why refuse we to be like to Adam in this Will we follow him in that onely of which onely he is ashamed Is it not more glorie to arise with him then to haue fallē with him O why do we euery day renew the memorie of his fault by committing the like Doth the brightnesse of the truth in these points dazle your eies Me thinks I see many of you offering to presse forward as it were to take the kingdome of heauen the doctrine of the Gospell by violence why recoile you Why quaile you on a sodaine The bare name of the Church not onely stayeth you but beateth you backward The Romish Church cannot erre VVho telleth you so Surely they that can erre your Priests and Iesuits Giue me leaue I pray you to question with you a little and for a minute of an hower be content to make vse of that reason and knowledge which God hath giuen you without forestalling your iudgements by preiudice of the authoritie of the Church Doth it not appeare to you by the light of naturall reason that the maine end of all religion is the glorie of God Do not your owne consciences testifie in the simplicitie of your hearts that it maketh more for the glorie of God that men should be beholding to his Maiestie for their saluation then that they should procure it to themselues Is it not also apparent to you in the secret of your owne soules that our doctrine by beating downe the pride of mans free-will aduanceth the glorie of Gods mercie and yours by hoysing vp the conceit of mans good choise presseth downe the estimation of Gods vnspeakable goodnesse And shall an idle sound weigh more with you then sound reason Consider I beseech you what weake grounds you build this opinion of the Church vpon I will point at that which in my answer I haue handled Can you in any sort compare the opinion of the Churches authoritie with the euidence of those matters wherewith before I pressed you Is it as cleere that there are certaine men whom I must beleeue whatsoeuer they teach as it is that I must seeke the aduancing of Gods glory more then of mine owne pride Are you as sure that these Priests and Iesuits which are your teachers be sent by the true Church and deliuer nothing but the doctrine of the true Chruch as you are that they who perswade you to rest wholy vpon God and not at all vpon your selues shew you the right way to procure Gods glory and your owne saluation Tush say you all is nothing vnlesse I beleeue it vpon the credit of the Church Alaste how did the first Christians who neuer thought on the authoritie of the Church when they heard and beleeued the Apostles doctrine Looke ouer all the Historie of the Actes peruse the Sermons of Peter and Paule and tell me whether you finde that euer they pleaded the authoritie of the Church to procure beleefe of their doctrine After men are conuerted the authoritie of the Church hath her due place and must beare sway in matters in different but for the auowing of truth her bare word is neuer of sufficient importance It was the doctrine of the Apostles that wrought vpon the hearts of men by the cleare euidence of it through the power of the Spirit wherewith it was accompanied What that doctrine was where should we learne but in the scriptures wherein they haue written what they preached These you say giue such authoritie to the Church This were somewhat if you made not their authoritie in respect of vs to depend vpon the Church The scriptures say your Doctors haue in themselues authoritie as being from God but they are not of authoritie to vs but onely by the authoritie of the Church I perceiue you are ashamed of these absurdities The Church must be beleeued vpon her word Why so The Scripture saith so How shall I know that these bookes are scripture The Church saith so The Church and the scripture prooue each other by their mutuall testimonie they giue each of other I beleeue the Church because the scripture biddeth me I beleeue the scripture because the Church biddeth me If these things seeme to be absurd as indeed they are most absurd blinde not your selues any longer with such mists of errour but come out of them to the cleare light of the scriptures reade them diligently meditate in them carefully call vpon God for his grace earnestly resigne your selues and your free-will to him sincerelie and the Lord that is most readie to blesse them that vse the meanes of knowledge and faith in humilitie and singlenesse of heart will assuredly enlighten your vnderstanding and incline your affections that you shall discerne like of and embrace the true doctrine of Iustification by faith in Iesus Christ and shall renounce your owne righteousnesse and free-will to the glorie of his grace and the present comfort and euerlasting saluation of your bodies and soules through the same his sonne to whom with the Father and the holy Ghost be all
be the Apostles writings we make you this short answer Thence we know these to be the Apostles whence you know that Manicheus was the author of yours And in his Confessions he setteth out the matter more at large that when he considered how many things we are faine to beleeue for which we haue no certaine proofe it pleased God at the last to perswade him that they were worthy of iust reproofe which would not giue credit to those bookes of God which he had established almost in all countries with such authoritie and that they were at no hand to be hearkened vnto who would aske him how he knew that those bookes were vouchsafed to mankind by the spirit of the onely true God This as Valentia saith may be knowne by the admirable effect these bookes worke in the hearts of men in stirring them vp to vertue without any such eloquence and perswasions as other writers stuffe their books withall and yet neuer moue vs as these do The like hath Stapleton where he speakes of the meanes which the Church vseth to discerne of the Scriptures It is not our meaning to shut out the holy Ghost who is the teacher of the children of God as in other points so also in this but to stop the mouthes of Atheists and importunate men who obiect so vnreasonably against the iudgement of the whole Christian world without authoritie or reason But of the spirit and teaching thereof hereafter Whatsoeuer you gather vpon the former point it must needs be of smal strength because that hath need of better proof But let vs grant that it is true doth it therefore seeme necessary or reasonable to you that we should admit the interpretatiō of the Church as you speake without any triall because by the authoritie thereof we beleeue that the Scriptures are the word of God What if God gaue the Church no further authoritie but onely to assure vs of the Scripture It doth not follow that we must giue credit to whatsoeuer a man will say because in some one point he must be beleeued We may not in reason doubt but that the records which we find in an office are true because they are auouched so to be by the clearke and maister of the office But what of that may we therefore take them for competent iudges so that we must of necessitie hold that to be the meaning of the record which they deliuer to vs as such I am perswaded no man of any vnderstanding will say so Yet do we acknowledge that Austin speaketh with verie great reason For where should an ignorant man enquire of the sense of the Scripture rather then there where be learned it was scripture He shall not deale either kindly or reasonably if he refuse their iudgement other things being alike for any mans else whatsoeuer and therefore I pray you be not offended if we that liued not in the times of Popish ignorance doe giue credit to our owne Church by which we haue bene perswaded that these are the scriptures of God rather then to your Priests and Cleargie from whom we haue not receiued this perswasion But the case in Saint Austins time was farre otherwise The Manichees against whom he wrote that Treatise would not suffer a man to beleeue any thing though it were writtē in scripture vnlesse it were proued true by reason and yet themselues as Austin sheweth in the chapter you alledge were driuen to allow faith without reason and to lay this for a ground that a man must beleeue Christ that is he must beleeue that there was such a man though he haue no proofe for it but report generally continued a long time which Austin confesseth to haue bene the authoritie that first moued him to beleeue Now the Manichees acknowledging thus much of Christ and that onely vpon beleefe without reason brought in monstrous opinions of their owne which could in no sort agree with the scriptures Therefore being pressed hard by the Diuines of that age with scripture they denied all authoritie thereunto farther then they in their ignorance and heresie could make it serue for their vnreasonable conceits Yea they made small or no reckoning of the scriptures in comparison of their fundamentall Epistle and such other blasphemies written by Manes their founder and some of his followers Had not Austin great reason then to answer as he doth not concerning the sense of scripture to which you falsely apply his words but touching those bookes of theirs wherein they had written horrible and senselesse absurdities against religion and reason Surely saith Austin since by their authoritie I haue bene brought to beleeue that there was such an one as Christ because it was so generally held time out of minde I will neuer runne to a few of yours who learned of them that Christ was to know what I must beleeue of him Why should I not rather beleeue them that the scriptures teach what is to be held of Christ then you that in your writings onely is the truth since in this matter you can bring no reason why I should beleeue you rather then them For since by them saith Austin I haue beleeued being mooued by the authoritie of their generall consent if they should faile and could teach nothing which words you craftily leaue out I should easlier perswade my selfe not to beleeue Christ then to beleeue any thing of him by any mans report but by theirs who first made me beleeue in him Your glosse of beleeuing the scriptures to be his word and what is the meaning of his word agree not eyther with the place you alleadge as may appeare euidently to him that will reade it or with their heresie but of both I haue spoken sufficiently A. D. §. 5. Thus I haue prooued that those English translations whereupon Protestants commonly build their faith cannot be a sufficient rule of true Christian faith First because they are not infallibly free from error Secondly for that all men cannot reade them neither can any by onely reading be sure to attaine the right sense without which to haue the words of Scripture is to haue them as Austin saith ad speciem non ad salutem for a shew but not to saluation Lastly for that all points of doctrine which appertaine to true Christian faith are not expresly set downe in scripture as beside my proofe Saint Austin Saint Basil and Epiphanius do affirme Some of which reasons haue also force to prooue that scripture alone in what language soeuer is not a fit meanes to instruct sufficiently all sorts of men in all matters of faith Wherefore I may absolutely conclude that Scripture alone cannot be that rule of faith which we seeke for A. W. Thus in steed of disputing against the scriptures being the rule of faith which was the matter you propounded you haue made a discourse against our translations hauing fancied to your selfe a conceit which besides your selfe I thinke
no man euer dreamed of viz. that we commonly build our faith vpon our English translation So that the Scripture may well be the rule of faith for ought that you haue said against it concerning the first propertie of certaine truth which it were blasphemie to denie of the scripture For the second that the rule must be easie to vnderstand I haue shewed that there is no necessitie of that condition and that the scripture is easie in matters necessary to saluation In the last point of the scriptures defect touching many things that must needs be beleeued you do both wrong God in making his word writtē so vnperfect and by a foolish craft insteed of proouing that the scripture containeth not all matters of faith needfull to saluation vndertake to shew that which no man denieth that all points of beleefe are not expresly set down and determined by scripture And lest we should forget your shuffling in this point you offer new proofe of a needlesse matter from the authoritie of Austin Basil and Epiphanius whose testimonies I alledged before to prooue the sufficiencie of the scripture in all matters necessarie to saluation The places by you alledged are not of such matters neither speake of things not expresly contained but onely shew that for matters of fact ceremonie the Apostles haue not determined al particulars The Apostles saith Austin haue commaunded nothing touching not rebaptising them which haue bene baptised by hereticks but the custome which was pleaded against Cyprian is to be beleeued to haue had beginning from their tradition as there are many things which the Church euery where holdeth that we wel beleeue therefore to haue beene enioyned by the Apostles though they are not found written What is this to prooue that there are matters necessarie to be beleeued to saluation which are not exprest in the scriptures Basil was not the the author of that Treatise at the least of the latter part of it from about the 17. chapter and so forward That appeareth first by obseruing the difference of style being neither like Basils writing nor in one place like an other as Erasmus hath truly obserued who translated it Secondly by the fond discourse he maketh propounding one thing handling an other and concluding a third which not onely Basil would neuer haue done but no man of any discretion Last of all he bewraieth himselfe to be a counterfeit by speaking of Meletius as one dead long before who liued in his time ouerliued him as it is manifest by the Ecclesiasticall historie But admit the booke were Basils what is there in it to proue that all points of doctrine which appertaine to true Christian faith are not expresly set downe in Scripture This Author saith that we must beleeue oraditions VVhat In matters of doctrine There is no such word in him He speaketh of outward carriage in ceremonies and phrases of speech The question in that part of his Treatise is of the preposition with that is to speake that euery man may vnderstand whether it be lawfull to say in the Church seruice and otherwise Glorie be to the Father and to the Sonne with the holy Ghost or whether we must needs say and to the holy Ghost not with For this speech that author pleades tradition Do we denie any such matter Or do we not acknowledge the libertie and authoritie of the Churches in such matters Who sees not that our custome now is to say Glory be to the Father to the Sonne and to the holy Ghost Not that thereby we condemne the other kind of speech but because in matters left to our libertie we take that which seemeth fittest Epiphanius speaking of praier for the dead which hath no warrant of Scripture is glad to helpe himselfe with the authoritie of tradition telling vs that some things must be held by tradition and not all taken out of the scriptures But Epiphanius doth not say that this is a doctrine or action necessarie to saluation A. D. §. 6. Some obiect against this conclusion that place of S. Paul Omnis Scriptura diuinitùs inspirata vtilis est ad docendum c. vt perfectus sit homo c. But this place prooueth nothing against that which I haue said For it saith not that scripture alone is sufficient to instruct a man to perfection but that it is profitable for this purpose as it is indeed and the rather because it commendeth vnto vs the authoritie of the Church which as I shall afterwards proue is sufficient Now it is certaine that to be profitable and to be of it selfe alone sufficient be farre different things Stones and Timber be profitable to the building of an house yet they alone without a worke-man to square them and set them in order be not sufficient for this purpose A. W. Of this place I haue spoken sufficiently otherwhere and shewed that the Scriptures are able to make vs wise to saluation and therefore sufficient to that purpose Now the Apostle hauing giuen that commendation to the scripture vers 15. proceedeth in the next to exemplifie that in particular which he had before said in generall It is able to make thee wise to saluation it is able to fit thee to teaching reproouing correcting instructing Can any reasonable man thinke that the Apostle deliuering by way of amplification his former commendation of the scripture that he might the rather stirre vp Timothie to the studie of it would say lesse then he had done before But it is a great deale lesse to say no more but the scripture is profitable to such purposes then to commend it as able to make a man wise to saluation Therefore though the word indeed doe not expresly signifie sufficiencie yet it cannot be doubted but the profit mentioned implieth such a sufficiencie especially since he addeth perfection which must arise from this word of God And so as I haue shewed elsewhere do Chrysostome and Theophylact vnderstand it who make the Apostle speake to Timothie to this effect that he being now to be offred vp leaueth the scriptures in his steed of which he may in all things take aduise and counsell as if the Apostle himselfe were present with him But you forsooth would make vs beleeue that the scripture is indeed profitable to this end but not sufficient Is not the knowledge of arts tongues philosophy and history of verie good vse also to this purpose Slender then too slender is the commendation our Apostle giueth the scriptures if it be of no greater excellēcy then these humane furtherances but only in a certain degree of profit To helpe the matter you propound one particular for which the scripture is profitable namely to commend vnto vs the authority of the Church But neither doth it cōmend to vs any such authority as you imagin if that be the rule of the scripture one sentēce had bin as good better then
also in the forgiuenesse of sinnes and the meaning is all one And in a third Sermon he giueth vs this caueat we must know saith he that we must beleeue the Church not beleeue in the Church that is must beleeue there is a Church So then To beleeue the Catholicke Church is not to beleeue all that the Church saith which neither the Greeke nor the Latin will beare but to beleeue there is a Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Credo esse Ecclesiam which in the phrase of the new Testament for the Greeke might be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Which is word for word I beleeue that there is a Church Now if any man shall demaūd of me what the meaning of this article is or what we beleeue by beleeuing there is a Church and what that Church is to which so many gracious promises are made and of which so many glorious things are spokē in the scripture I will indeuor to satisfie him as briefly as I can with plainnesse First then leauing the holinesse and catholicknesse of this church to be discussed in due place I say that by beleeuing the Church we beleeue that there is a company of men called to true faith in Iesus Christ and to the participation of those priuiledges which belong to all the true members of his mysticall bodie some of the principall whereof are recited in the articles following But we may not imagine as the Papists doe without any likelihood of true reason that this company is their Pope and Bishops assembled in a generall councel or that they of this companie make one visible congregation but that they are all one Church in regard of the common meanes of saluation which they embrace and their dependance vpon on mysticall head Iesus Christ of whose bodie they are all members So that by Church in the Creed we vnderstand such of the elect as are by faith liuely members of our Sauiours bodie or at the least are by the baptisme of the spirit and water in corporated into that bodie howsoeuer as yet they haue not faith I denie not that all the elect euen those which are yet vnborne belong to the Church of Christ but I thinke the Creed doth not stretch so farre but onely to them that are actually members of Christ not to all that are so in Gods euerlasting predestination In this sense namely for the liuing members of Christs bodie the word Church is often vsed in the Scripture Vpon this rocke will I build my Church The Church which he hath purchased with his blood God hath giuen Christ ouer all things to be the head of the Church which is his bodie the fulnesse of him that filleth all in all things Christ is the head of the Church and the same is the Sauiour of his bodie So is it taken in the same chapter diuers times He is the head of the bodie of the Church Thus doe the ancient writers speake of the Church Austin denieth that he dares take any for the Church of Christ but those that are iust and holy no though they haue bene baptised For as he saith in another place they that are condemned by Christ are not now in his bodie which is the Church because Christ cannot haue members condemned As for the reprobate saith the same Author whether they seeme to be within the Church or be apparantly out of it they are alwaies diuided from the vnitie of the Church which is without spot or wrincle The Church saith Clement of Alexandria is the company of the elect Therefore saith Cyprian that the vnitie of Christ and the Church is coupled together with indiuisible links For as he saith otherwhere the Church that beleeueth in Christ and holds that which once it hath receiued neuer departeth wholy frō him they are the Church that cōtinue in the house of God but they are not a planting planted by God who are not setled with the fastnesse and soundnesse of wheat but are scattered like chaffe by the breath of the enemie Sathan The Church standeth on the right hand saith Ierome and hath nothing in it belonging to them on the left hand And againe He that is a sinner and defiled with any filthinesse cannot be called one of Christs Church nor be said to be subiect to Christ There are many such sayings in the writings of the Fathers grounded vpon the booke of Canticles which all men know intreateth of the true church There is no doubt saith Bernard vpon the Canticles but the elect are the Church of God But the reprobat as one of your Cardinals saith are not truly mēbers of the Church Of many beleeuers purged from their sinnes there is made one Church saith Albertus magnus Thomas his master Thomas himselfe expounding that place of the Reuelation In the Temple of my God saith that by the temple of God the Church of the faithfull is vnderstood which is the speciall temple of God and to that purpose he alledgeth that of the Apostle The temple of God is holy which you are And in an other place he saith that the mysticall bodie of Christ is the Church Now the vnion of this mystical bodie is spiritual by which through faith and charitie they are vnited to God and one to another As the godly or they that are holy are the members of Christ so the wicked saith Ambrose are the members of the Diuell The congregation of them that beleeue aright is the Church saith Altissiodorensis Who can reasonably doubt whether this be the Church spoken of in the Creed or no As for the promises and commendations giuen to the Church in the Scripture to what other Church should they appertaine The Doue and the perfect one praised in the Canticles is as Epiphanius truly saith the holy spouse and Catholicke Church Whereas the Church in the Canticles saith Austin is described to be a garden inclosed a fountain sealed vp a wel of liuing water c. I dare not vnderstand this but of the holy and righteous not of couetous men not of deceiuers extortioners vsurers drunkards enuious persons although they haue receiued the same baptisme but haue not the same charitie or sanctifying grace The promises praises belong either seuerally to euery one of the elect called as that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against the Church that the Church is loued and cherished by Christ her husband head or to the congregations of beleeuers in regard of the elect amongst them Once this I dare boldly affirme let any Papist disproue it if he can that the Church is no where in all the Scripture taken for one companie through the world in respect of any outward gouernment or dependance which is the foundation of all your doctrine touching the Church but in regard of the common meanes of saluation by faith in Christ And here I might
may also thus vnderstand it that Christ appeared to be the word and the truth and wisedome frō the beginning of the creatiō of the world to the last writing of the Apostles that is from Genesis to the Apostles books after which there are none of like authoritie or beleef Or thus that the Law and the Prophets continued till Iohn in whom the brightnesse of truth was The East was the Law the West Iohn the end of the Law Now onely the Church neither takes away the word and sense of this brightnesse nor addes any thing else as propheticall The place you bring lieth thus Euery doctrine professing it selfe to be truth when it is not truth either among the Gentiles or among the Barbarians is in some sort Antichrist going about to seduce as truth and to seuer vs from him that said I am the truth Therefore we must not giue eare to them which say Behold here is Christ but do not shew him in the Church which is full of brightnesse from the East to the West which is full of the true light which is the pillar and ground of truth in which whole Church the whole comming of the Sonne of man is Now the comming of the Sonne of man is before expounded by him to be the word of truth Doubtlesse if you had not taken this proofe vpon Bellarmines or some other mans credit you would neuer haue brought it to proue the visibilitie of the Church to all men at all times What saith Cyprian in the place alledged but that the Church is dispersed ouer the whole world Doth this proue that it is at all times visible to all men Or hath Cyprian any such purpose in that place Is not his whole drift to shew that there is but one Church because the truth they professe is but one The title of his booke is Of the vnitie of the Church The place you bring concludes that howsoeuer the beames are scattered or spread here and there yet the light is but one The Church that is true beleeuers were in this land in the dayes of persecutiō and is now in Spaine Italy and perhaps in Rome it selfe This proues not a perpetuall visibilitie What need we any other answer to this testimonie of Chrysostome then that which your owne exposition affoords vs Chrysostoms meaning is that the Church cannot be quite without light say you What thē Must it needs be visible then to al men The Moone is neuer wholy darkened no not in the greatest eclipse nor in the change but is alwayes in the one halfe light and yet he were mad that would conclude hereupon that therefore it may be seene at all times of all men Indeed Chrysostome speaketh of the continuance of the Church not of the visiblenesse thereof That may appeare by his saying that the Church hath her roote in heauen rather then in the earth This argues stabilitie not visibilitie And what Church hath rooting in heauen but onely the Church of the elect The Church saith Chrysostome in the same place is more honorable then heauen because heauen is made for it not it for heauen Is heauen made for any Church but that of the elect Besides it was not the visibility but the being of the Church against which those tyrants whom Chrysostome there mentioneth so mightily laboured which yet continued in despight of them all These and such like places of Austin shew the flourishing estate of the Churches in those times and conuince the Donatists against whom Augustine writ of wofull blindnesse who would see no church but their owne heretical assembly in a part of Africa But they neither were intended not can with any reason be applied to proue that the church is alwayes visible to all men The former of the two places as I shewed before is interpreted by the Fathers of the Apostles That the Apostles saith Ierome should not hide themselues for feare but freely shew themselues he teacheth them to preach boldly when he saith A citie set vpon an hill cannot be hid But let vs take it to be meant of the Church It must needs be a monstrous hill that can shew a citie set vpon it to the whole world A citie standing on a hill is the easier and the farther to be seene but there is no hill high enough to be seene ouer the whole world I would farther know whether euery particular Church be not a citie vpon an hill or no. And yet is no such Church to be seene of all men Concerning the latter place Austin worthily cals them blind that could not or rather as he truly saith would not see that great mountaine vpon which the Church then stood but would shut their eyes against the light that shined vpon them Yet who is so ignorant that he knowes not or so shamelesse that he will not cōfesse that there were many aliue at that very time which had no knowledge that there was any Church in the world But there neither were nor could be any such among the Donatists or other like heretickes who forsooke the Church to follow their owne fantasies The candle is the Minister or the word shining by his ministery the candlesticke is the particular Church where that ministery is if any liuing in or neare the place where such a candle burneth bright will not see the light of it he may well be called wilfully blind So may not they which are so far that the beames of the light cannot shine vnto them Now the summe of that which hath bene answered concerning the perpetuall continuance and visiblenesse of the church is this that the church to which that continuance is promised is the number of the elect and not any one outward companie of men succeeding one another in a famous and visible profession of Christian Religion Yea farther though we do not vndertake to affirme that there hath not bin at all times some one companie or other of true Christians knowne to them among whom they liued to be professors of the Gospell yet we doubt not to say that there can be no sufficient proofe brought out of the Scriptures that there must of necessitie be alwayes such a company as if our Sauior Christs promises to his church were not performed vnlesse the world might at all times perceiue where such a companie were to be found A. D. CHAP. XIII How we should discerne and know which is the true visible Church of Christ A. W. It may perhaps seeme needlesse that I should proceed any further in the confutation of this treatise because still the maine point that there is such a Church is presupposed and not proued But howsoeuer it be true that there is indeed no one visible church of Christ which may challenge or beare the name of the whole church yet it will be worth the doing to finde out the markes or signes by which we may discerne which congregation is a true church of Christ and which is not
not perceiue those things which are of the Spirit of God For sith none by the onely power of naturall wit which in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries which we beleeue by our faith neither doth the Spirit of God who as the principall cause infuseth this gift of faith into our soules ordinarily instruct any man in the knowledge of true faith immediatly by himselfe alone or by an Angell sent from heauen we must needs if we will haue true faith seeke first for that which it pleaseth Almightie God to vse as the ordinarie instrument and as a necessary meanes by which men may learne true faith the which is no other but the preaching and teaching of the true church according to that saying of S. Paul Quomodo credent ei quem non audierint quomodo audient sine praedicante quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur How shall they beleeue him whom they haue not heard how shall they heare without a Preacher how shall they preach vnlesse they be sent Therefore the true Church which only hath preachers truly sent of God must first be found out that by it we may heare and know which is the true faith Therefore of the two the true Church is rather a mark whereby we may know the true preaching and consequently the true doctrine of faith then contrarie that as heretickes say the doctrine should be a marke whereby all men must know which is the true Church A. W. Belike as you had good cause you suspected your abilitie to proue simply that the true preaching of the word in all matters fundamentall and the right administration of the sacraments are not a good marke of a true Church And therefore you rather chose to proue by way of comparison that the true church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by For so runs your conclusion directly If the end of seeking the true Church say you be principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine then the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by But the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points which otherwise wee cannot attaine to Therefore the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the Church by Though the conclusion as I said be not directly to the question which is not comparatiue but simple whether true doctrine be a good mark to discerne a true Church by or no yet I will take it as it is and answer to the parts of it Your maior in the antecedent may haue a double meaning First that we cannot in any point learne true doctrine but by the Church and then I denie the consequence For true doctrine in the fundamentall points of Religion may be a good marke of the true Church though we seeke the true Church because there are many points which we cannot learne without it But howsoeuer you vnderstand the maior the minor is euidently false First because the principall end of seeking the true Church is that we may truly worship God in the assembly of his children to his greater glorie and our farther assurance of his loue to vs as we may see euery where in the booke of the Psalmes Secondly because we are not to learne of the true Church as a necessarie and infallible meanes but of the ministers thereof who are appointed by God to giue vs knowledge of the meanes of saluation by expounding the word of God to vs not to binde vs to beleefe by their authoritie Your minor you offer to proue in this maner If no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries and faith be not to be had but by the teaching of the true Church then the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may learne by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine But no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries nor faith be had but by the teaching of the true Church Therefore the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessary and infallible meanes learne the true faith in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine The consequence of your maior is naught It doth not follow that we seeke the true Church to learne of it as a necessary and infallible meanes because we cannot know the mysteries of Religion without faith which commeth by the teaching of the true Church For there may well be teaching and learning without any such authoritie in the Church that teacheth Your minor is very doubtfull as I will shew in answering seuerally to the parts of it First then whereas you say that no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries if you meane that a man cannot acknowledge the truth of such mysteries without faith your minor in that part is true but if your meaning be that a man cannot vnderstand what the meanes of saluation appointed by God are without faith I take your minor to be false For though those meanes be indeed such as no discourse of man euer could deuise or thinke on being vtterly supernaturall yet it is possible for a meere naturall man to learne what they are out of the Scriptures and that without faith because the Scriptures may be vnderstood by such helpes of the tongues and arts as humane learning doth affoord vs though to the sauing knowledge thereof the especiall grace of God be absolutely necessarie The other point that faith cannot be found but by the teaching of the true Church may also haue a double sense The first that faith cannot be wrought in any mans heart but by the preaching of some man authorized to that purpose by the true Church and this as I shewed before is not alwayes true for faith may be and hath bene begotten in some by the reading of the Scriptures where the ministery of the word was not to be had and by the teaching of ordinarie Christians not set apart to preach the Gospell The other meaning is this that faith cannot be attained to but by our hearkning to the voyce of such a Preacher as we alreadie know to be sent by the true Church And this indeed specially fits your purpose but hath no likelihood of truth in it For they that came to faith by the Apostles preaching did not beleeue them as men autorized for their instruction by the true church but as being conuinced in their consciences by the euidence of the truth they deliuered without
or happinesse This done thou shalt be sure to find by the euidence of truth manifested in those bookes that they are sent from God and not deuised by man If thou liue in such a place as affoordeth the interpretation of these bookes by the ministery of men vse that singular blessing of God with reuerence and care to vnderstand and thou shalt by the mercifull teaching of God acknowledge these books to be the word of God ordained for the saluation of thy selfe and other This will some man say may perhaps breed a perswasion that these bookes are from God but how shall we come to be infallibly sure of it How else but by the worke of the spirit of God in thy heart What say you must we runne to reuelations Who knowes the secrets of God but the spirit of God The truth it selfe discerned by that light which the spirit kindleth in our hearts worketh assurance of beleefe to which the testimonie of the spirit is added for our further confirmation Neither is this any other reuelation then you Papists require in this case For according to your doctrine no man can be perswaded infallibly of the truth of the Scripture either for the text or the interpretation but by the especiall teaching of the spirit otherwise he hath not faith but opinion of these matters Onely herein stands the difference betwixt vs that you say the argument whereby the spirit perswades vs to acknowledge the Scripture is the authoritie of the Church we affirme it is the euidence of truth which he makes vs to discerne by our vnderstanding enlightened and to approue by our will thereto inclined through his mightie and gracious worke vpon our soules The second part of your minor is that we could not haue knowne the Gospels of the foure Euangelists to be canonicall Scripture rather then those of Nicodemus and Thomas if we had not the testimonie of the Church Of the falsnesse of which opinion I shall need to say little because it is refuted in my answer to the former part For this knowledge is not bred in vs by resting vpon the Churches authoritie but by yeelding to the euidence of the truth discouered to our hearts by the teaching of the holy Ghost Concerning the authoritie of the Church in this point it were a presumptuous and vnreasonable thing for any man without very good proof or great likelihood of reason to deny or doubt of that which hath bin auouched so many yeares by the whole Christian world But to make question of the bookes of Scripture whether they be the word of God or no and to denie that there is any meanes to know them for such but the authoritie of the Church is the next way to open a gap to Atheisme to lay open Religion to the scorne of the world Can I not know the Scripture to be of God but by the authoritie of the Church How shal I then know it at all since it is not reasonable to beleeue there is any Church that hath such authoritie but by the warrant of the Scripture They do all they can to turne reasonable creatures into beasts who teach vs that we must beleeue the Church cannot erre because the Scripture saith so and yet denie that we can know there is any Scripture but by beleeuing it because the Church saith so This is to dance in a circle as if a man were coniured that he could not get out of it How shall I know there is a Church by the Scripture How shall I know there are any Scriptures by the Church Would your proud Clergie thus make fooles of Christian men if they did not despise them as voyd of all reason I wonder how your Pope Cardinals Bishops and the rest of your Cleargie can for beare laughing when they looke one vpon another and remember how they cosen and if I may vse the word in a matter of such importance gull the world with such palpable fooleries But your strumpet of Babylon hath made the Kings of the earth and all nations drunke with the cup of her fornications exalting her selfe aboue all that is called God and making her selfe the God of her slauish vassals But the Lord is iust who according to the Apostles prophefie hath sent the world strong delusions that they should beleeue lies that all they might be damned which beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse And certainly if there were not a great measure of 12. blindnesse and sottishnesse in the hearts of men that Gods purpose might take effect it were vnpossible that reasonable men should so be lead by the nose to errour and destruction A. D. §. 5. Fourthly if the true doctrine of faith in all particular points must be foreknowne as a marke whereby to know the true Church then contrarie to that which hath bin proued the authoritie of the Church should not be a necessarie meanes whereby men must come to the knowledge of the true faith For if before we come to know which is the true Church we must by an other meanes haue knowne which is the true faith what need then is there for getting true faith already had to seeke or bring in the authoritie of the same Church A. W. This fourth reason and the next labour to proue that part of your first assumptiō in this Chapter which we deny not that the true doctrine of faith in euery particular point is not a good marke of the Church It would therefore be but lost labour to spend much time in the examining of them yet somewhat I must say and first to the former If the true doctrine of faith in all particular points must be foreknowne as a marke to know the true Church by then is not the autoritie of the true Church a necessary meanes to know the true doctrine of faith by But the authoritie of the true Church is a necessary meanes to know the true faith by Therefore the true doctrine of faith must not be foreknowne in all particular points as a marke to know the true Church by Your conclusion is no more then we grant the consequence of your maior about which you take some paines needs not your helpe for the proofe of it Your minor is false That which you brought before to prooue it before was answered A. D. §. 6. Fiftly if before we giue absolute and vndoubted credit to the true Church we must examine and iudge whether euery particular point of doctrine which it holdeth be the truth with authoritie to accept that onely which we like or which seemeth in our conceit right and conformable to Scripture and to reiect whatsoeuer we mislike or which in our priuate iudgement seemeth not so right and conformable then we make our selues examiners and iudges ouer the church and consequently we preferre our liking or disliking our iudgement and censure of the interpretation and sense of Scripture before the iudgement and censure of the
did borrow the propagation of faith and seeds of doctrine I make bold to alter your translation let the skilfull Reader iudge whether I haue cause or no. But what of all these Tertullian doth not say that no Church is to be accounted Apostolicke but that which can without interruption shew her descent from the Apostles nor that euery Church is true that can make such proofe of her original But whereas the hereticks against whom he there dealeth reiected and receiued Scripture at their choise and would neuer leaue wrangling Tertullian appeales to the iudgement of those Churches which were knowne to be founded by the Apostles and in which the truth was most likely to be found As for your argument of succession you shall heare Tertullians iudgment of it Let hereticks saith Tertullian in the same book faine a succession from the Apostles they shall get nothing by it For their doctrine compared with that the Apostles taught by the diuersitie and contrarietie thereof will declare that it came not from any Apostle or Apostolicke man because as the Apostles would not teach contrary one to another so Apostolick men would not deliuer doctrine contrary to the Apostles vnlesse they were such as were fallen away from the Apostles to preach otherwise then they did So then the chiefe triall of a true Church is by the doctrine of the Apostles and their successors in the truth because it is possible for hereticks to shew their descent from the Apostles or some Churches which had their beginning from the Apostles or Apostolicke men Yea it is manifest that the greatest heresies as the foure maine ones condemned in the foure first generall Councels had their beginning of them who could shew their pedegree step by step from the Apostles in respect of outward succession We haue soone how weakly you haue proued that personall succession is a thing belonging to the true Church it remaines that you proue it to be proper to the church and not common to it with heretickes To which purpose you thus reason No vpstart noueltie contrary to the former faith of the Church can haue any Apostle or Apostolicke man for founder thereof Euery heresie is an vpstart noueltie contrary to the former faith of the Church Therefore no heresie can haue any Apostle or Apostolicke man for the founder thereof How much more truly and reasonably spake Tertullian of the like matter when he said that no Apostolicke man taught contrary to the Apostles vnlesse he were such a one as was fallen from the Apostles He saw and acknowledged that it was possible for a man instructed by the Apostles themselues to forsake the truth of doctrine and become an author or maintainer of heresie Doth not Saint Iohn speake of some who being bred vp in the church by heresie departed from it What should I name Hymenaeus Alexāder Phygellus Hermogenes Nicolas and such like Hardly can you name me any heresie that euer tooke rooting but the first plant of it sprung vp in the nursery of the Church Therefore your maior is altogether vntrue being vnderstood as it is of Apostolicke men in respect of personall succession not of succeeding the Apostles in truth of doctrine But you thinke to make good your proposition by Tertullians authoritie who challengeth the heretickes to shew the beginning of their Churches from some Apostolicke men Is it possible you should either write or reade that sentence of Tertullian and not perceiue that it cuts the very throate of your cause Doth not Tertullian in the sentence alledged by you directly confirme our opinion and ouerthrow yours Let them shew vs their beginning saith Tertullian from some Apostolicke man Is that enough I if we beleeue you who define Apostolicknes by personal succeeding the Apostles But what saith Tertullian He in plaine termes requires such an Apostolicke man as perseuered with the Apostles and forsooke them not Now that by this perseuering with the Apostles and not forsaking them he meanes agreement in doctrine I proue it euidently by that which followeth in the same Chapter First Tertullian shewes that it is in vaine for them to pleade succession in place if their doctrine be found contrary to that which the Apostles deliuered I set downe the sentence before Secondly he doubts not to say that by the hereticks disagreeing from the Apostles in doctrine those Churches which cannot proue themselues to be Apostolicke by naming any Apostle or Apostolicke man as the first founder of them may yet conuince them not to be Apostolicke and are themselues to be counted Apostolicke because of their consent in doctrine with the Apostles This is the summe of Tertullians words the words themselues run thus To this triall namely by doctrine as the next sentence before sheweth shall the hereticks be called by those Churches which though they cannot alledge any Apostle or Apostolicke man for their founder as being of late and now daily planted yet agreeing in the same doctrine are neuerthelesse counted Apostolicke by reason of their agreement in doctrine Do you not see that Tertullian disputeth for vs against your pretended succession That he confesseth heretickes may alledge personall succession That he acknowledgeth those Churches for true which cannot deriue their pedegree from the Apostles or any Apostolicke man That he maketh the truth of doctrine agreeing with the Apostles a certaine and necessarie marke of the true Church And are you not ashamed for all this to bring Tertullian for an author of so grosse an error VVere you so blinde that you discerned not this your selfe or did you so despise your Readers that you presumed they would neuer haue the wit to see your ignorance or craft It is now discouered sufficiently and yet this one point more must be added that Tertullian requireth this shew of their Churches beginning not of all heretickes as you deceitfully alledge him if you read him your selfe and tooke him not vpon credit at some other mans hands but onely of those who pleade their continuance from the time of the Apostles If any heresies saith Tertullian dare fetch their continuance from the Apostles time that therefore they may seeme Apostolicke because they were while the Apostles liued we may say let them shew the beginning of their Churches let them vnfould the succession of their Bishops c. With such learning and conscience doe you Papists alledge the Fathers that he must needes be honester and wiser then you that will not beleeue you vpon your bare word VVe see then that to be Apostolicke in your sense is no good marke of a true Church because Hereticall Churches may so be Apostolicke and true Churches not Apostolicke and contrariwise that to be Apostolicke in doctrine as we expound it is a most certaine note whereby a true Church may be knowne and the same that we onely allow of A. D. §. 7. It appeareth therefore plaine enough that these foure properties One Holy
which we pleade not guiltie and looke to heare what euidence commeth against vs to proue the enditement But you rather like the foreman of the grand enquest then the plaintiffe that endites vs instead of prouing come in with I find that the Protestants Church is not perfectly one This will not serue the turne we must know how you finde it or at least be assured that you haue found it Who would not laugh at such an euidence But though you leaue the two former points to the credulousnesse of your Popish followers yet you attempt the proofe of the last by this Syllogisme They that admit no rule of faith but onely Scriptures and allow no infallible interpreter thereof to whose iudgement they will stand haue no meanes to end their controuersies and returne to vnitie But the Protestant Churches admit no rule of faith but onely Scriptures and allow no infallible interpreter thereof to whose iudgement they will stand Therefore the Protestant Churches haue no meanes to end their controuersies and returne to vnitie I denie your maior for the Scripture alone containes all truth necessarie to be beleeued and that so plainly that without any such soueraigne iudgement of any man it is possible for a reasonable man to discerne truth from falshood But if any man will be contentious we haue the sword of the magistrate and the censure of excommunication to bring him into order or to cut him off if he be incurable that the vnitie of our Churches be not dissolued either by heresic or schisme But to confirme your proposition you alledge Ieromes authoritie that there must be a head or chiefe ruler that occasion of schisme may be taken away The danger of schisme that Ierome speakes of in his first booke against Iouinian not as your Printer quotes it in the second was not in respect of doctrine but of outward peace Neither was this course held from the beginning as Ierome saith but in discretion appointed vpon occasion Before that by the malice of the diuell saith Ierome the Church was deuided into factions and one man held of Paul another of Apollo another of Cephas Churches were gouerned by common consent of the Presbyters but after that euery man began to thinke that those which hee had baptized were his and not Christs it was decreed ouer all the world that one chosen from among the Presbyters should be set ouer the rest to whom the whole care of the Church should appertaine and that the seeds of schismes might be taken away Out of which sentence of Ierome we may obserue these points First that this meanes of procuring vnitie belongeth not necessarily to the nature of the Church for then it must needs haue bene as auncient as the Church But Ierome telleth vs that there was a time when the Church was without it and that in her best estate while the Apostles liued By little and little saith Ierome afterward that the plants of dissention might be plucked vp the whole care was layed vpon one Secondly whereas in the place alledged by you Ierome acknowledgeth such a superioritie in Peter aboue the other Apostles in respect of age for which as he saith he was preferred before Iohn yet there is more heede to be taken to his iudgement in this place where he disputes the question without all passion then to that which hee speakes in the heate of disputation against Iouinian But what neede we any better proofe of this point then Saint Paul affoords vs He blameth the Corinthians because some held of Paul some of Apollos some of Cephas Cephas or Peter is the last why not the first rather if he were as you say the head Or why should the Corinthians be reproued for cleauing to him especially if he were appointed to be the chiefe It might be a fault to depend on Paule or on Apollos who were in your iudgement vnderlings but it was a great vertue to hang vpon Cephas the head How forgetfull was the Apostle Paul both of his dutie to Peter his head and of so readie a meanes to end that schisme that would not tell them that Peter was appointed head to the end all occasion of schisme might be taken away Thirdly we are not so to vnderstand Ierome as if he had said that there was one head appointed ouer the whole world but that in all places where there were multitudes of Presbyters order was taken that some one chosen from among the rest should be chiefe and principall in that Diocesse as I may speake and ouer all them which were in some sort accounted to be but one bodie This agreeth with the practise of those times and with that of Cyprian Here of spring heresies and schismes arise that the Priest of the Lord is not obeyed Which Cyprian speakes of euery seuerall Bishop in his Diocesse Whereunto also belongs that of Ierome There be seuerall Bishops of Churches seuerall Archbishops and seuerall Archdeacons and all the Ecclesiasticall order is stayed by the gouernours Whereby saith the Glosse Ierome proueth that there may not be two or more Bishops in one Church but that there must be a seuerall Bishop in euery seuerall Church To which purpose I may farther alledge another place of Ierome Vnlesse saith Ierome the Bishop haue a speciall power aboue other there will be as many schismes in the Church as there be Priests This course then of authorizing some one of the Presbyters aboue the rest was for the preseruing of order and keeping out of schisme not for the determining of controuersies in Religion as if all must haue stood to one mans iudgement in questions of Diuinitie which either may be ended by the authoritie of the Scriptures if they be necessary to be determined or if they be not may be forbidden to be proceeded in without any danger to the Churches libertie So that the Protestant Churches fully agree in matters of substance and want not meanes to settle peace in questions of lesse importance or if they did might easily haue as good meanes as your Church by appointing a Pope ouer themselues as in policie you haue done But as yet they finde no such need especially where the remedie is worse then the disease as it must needs be in so lawlesse a tyrannie Is it not more for the glory of God good of the Church as I haue said otherwhere that there should be continuall disagreement in some matters of Religion then that all should beleeue maintain false doctrine Were not our Sauiour Christ better haue a troubled church thē none at all Honorable war is to be preferred before dishonorable peace in the iudgement of any wise states-man And can it be more glorious to God to haue outward quietnesse in the Church with heresy yea with Antichristianisme then truth with contention True Christian vnitie consists principally in truth of religion without which the greatest agreement is but a conspiracy against God
Aposiles without change is Catholicke The Romane Church is vniuersall in time place and doctrine of the Apostles without change Therefore the Romane Church is Catholicke If to make a Church Catholicke it be required that she continue in the doctrine of the Apostles how did you before denie that the doctrine of the Apostles is a necessary and certaine marke of the true Church But if you leaue this out and affirme that Church to be Catholicke which is vniuersall in doctrine and thinke it not needfull that the doctrine professed be the Apostles I denie your maior The reasons of my deniall I deliuered in the former Chapter when I shewed that truth of doctrine was the most proper and true marke of the Church But whatsoeuer your maior be your minor is euidently false in euery part of it The very foundations of the doctrine of the Apostles are ouerthrowne by your Church in the heresies you hold concerning predestination iustification free will the insufficiencie of the Scriptures and the headship of Antichrist your Pope Neither do you onely faile in the doctrine of the Apostles but in your vniuersalitie of time For how can that doctrine be said to haue bin always which was not taught by our Sauiour and his Apostles As for vniuersalitie in regard of the ample vniformitie of your doctrine if you speake of your Churches determination many points of great moment are not as yet defined by it for example take those maine questions whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or no whether he haue without a Councell priuiledge of not erring or no whether there be any merit of congruitie or no and such like Yea your Church denieth the chiefe point of all which in the Apostles time was held by all true Christians that iustification is by faith without the workes of the law I forbeare to shew the reasons of that I affirme because any man may setch them out of my former answer in this and the last Chapter I looked for proofe of your minor but you were too wise to vndertake a matter so vnpossible and therefore in stead of that you challenge vs to shew and proue the contrarie forgetting that it is the repliers part to proue and not the answerers But I pray you tell me in earnest did you neuer heare of any particulars whereby we except against your doctrine as none of the Apostles What a vaine flourish is this then to demaund new proofes of vs and neuer once assay to answer those we haue alreadie brought But I haue made answer to your challenge in my refutation of your proofe that your Church is one Yea our mens bookes are full of these points and proofes both out of Scriptures and Fathers As for your brag of being able to shew diuers points that we hold or denie otherwise then the true Church did in the time of the Apostles it is well knowne that in most controuersies betwixt vs you are faine to flie from the Scriptures of God to the writings of men and deuise interpretations to serue your turne In some points we denie not but that we dissent from the opinion of some writers of former ages but that we go against the iudgement of the whole Church before it became Antichristian neither we graunt nor you can proue And euen for those times of error we want not the testimonie of learned men to auouch our doctrine against your heresies But you call vpon vs to set downe the point of doctrine the author the time the place what companie did oppose themselues against it and who they were that did continue in the profession of the former faith What needs all this ado Wil it not serue the turne if we make it manifest that your doctrine is contrary to that the Apostles taught vnlesse we can shew you when euery one of your errors was first hatched What if the Scribes and Pharises had demaunded the like questions of our Sauiour Christ touching their errors reproued by him There is no doubt but that as he was God he could haue declared euery one of these particulars but do you thinke he would haue fed their foolish humor in this case and not haue contented himselfe with shewing that it was not so from the beginning Some of our Ministers haue truly and wittily refuted this conceit of yours by shewing how absurd it is for a man that is sicke of the plague a surfet or any such disease to denie that he is so diseased because the Physition cannot tell him at what time and in what place vpon what occasion in what companie he first tooke the infection or distempered his bodie by ill diet Is it a good plea against plaine and sound euidence whereby I proue that such a Lordship ought to be mine that I cannot shew when and how I lost the possession of euery seuerall close and meadow farme and cottage But to take away all iust excuse from you our writers haue shewed the first beginnings of many of your errors and might haue done of more if al were extant that hath bin written and your inquisitors and censurers had not as you call it purged indeed corrupted and maimed the writings of former ages wheresoeuer they made against you if you could light on them before they were too well knowne in the world This challenge hath as much reason as the former We must proue that there haue not bene some in euery countrey where the Gospell hath bene professed that haue held your Romane faith Or rather must not you proue your Catholicknesse by such induction But we confesse it to be likely that the diuell hath from time to time sowed some of your tares amongst the Lords wheate But that your whole faith as now you hold it was euer maintained any where till the last Councell of Trent we challenge you to proue if you can Surely the Greeke Church euen till this day dissenteth from you in many and some no small matters as your Popes supremacie that I may not name those Christians who are in precious Iohns countrey in Armenia and other parts of the world to whom your doctrine is as little knowne in a manner as ours is to those Indians you spake of Amongst whom for ought you can proue or know to the contrary there may be and in all liklihood are some to whom the Lord hath giuen grace to rest wholly vpon Iesus Christ for pardon of their sinnes without any mingling of their owne workes with Christs to procure them the inheritance of heauen All such we challenge to be of our Church though they agree with you in many of your errors through their ignorāce of the Scriptures As for our countrey of England which like that harlot you call deare as oft as you conceiue hope of bringing it into subiection to the Pope but otherwise wish it wholly destroyed as shee did the child it neither was conuerted by your proud Monke Austine but peruerted rather