scriptures indeede and the Protestants that do othervvise be destitute of the true sense of the vvord of God PROTESTANT The summe of this Argument is this Whatsoeuer meanes wee haue to knowe the Canonitall Scriptures the same we haue to know the true sense of them For there is equali danger in wrong expounding Scriptures and refusing them But there is no meanes to know the Canonicall Scriptures but by â—â—e authoritie of the Church For no man can prooue against Luther that Saint Iames his Epistle is Canonicall but by the authoritie of the Church and Austen Jaith I would not beleeue c. Therefore there is no meanes to know the true sense of the scriptures but by the anthority of the Church First then as before hath bin noted Augustine was much uerseene in his bookes De Doctr. Christ among so many meanes as he theresets downe to search find out the true sense of Scriptures to forget the authority of the Church which you will now haue to be the onely meanes Secondly in a sense it is true that the authority of Gods Church is a meanes to know both the Canonicall Scripture and the true sense thereof The Church of God doth neither giue being or authority to the Scriptures nor sense to the Scriptures but being taught of God in both giues witnesse of both to her owne children and euen to those that are without and by the ministrie and meanes of her testimonie they to whom the Scriptures were before vnknown begin to receiue them and they that haue receiued them attaine to the sense of them by that gift of interpretation which God hath giuen to his Church yet doth not Gods true Church set vp her authority in mens consciences to binde them without a better Teacher and of greater authority to receiue any thing at her handes for Scripture or to rest in her interpretation of Scriptures without tryall As Philip hauing testified to Nathanael We haue founde him of whom Moses did write and the Prophnts Iesus the sonne of Ioseph when Nathanael made doubt because he was of Nazareth doth not inforce his owne authority but bids him come see so the Church testifying of the Canonical scriptures of the true sense of them bids all men come and see Ioh. 1. 46. that is out of the Scriptures inspired of God by the teaching of the spirit to know the maiestie and authority of them after they haue beleeued the scriptures to be the vndoubtted word of God in them to search the true meaning of theÌ„ as Augustine teacheth both as he is before alleaged and in the very booke by you quoted for shewing how the Manichees teach how the Church teacheth thus he writeth Whatthinke you we must iudge or do but to forsake theÌ„ who inuite Contr. epist Fun. cap. 14. vs to know things certaine and after coÌ„mand vs to beleeue thinges vncertaine the very right description of the Popish church And follow theÌ„ who inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to looke into that when we are waxen stronger in faith we may attaine to vnderstand that which we beleeue novv not men but God inwardly strengthning and enlightning our minde Wherby that former sentence of Augustine so commonly alleaged by the Papists receiues plaine interpretation Ego non crederem c. Euery word almost in the sentence hauing a speciall signification to shew that he onely acknowledgeth the churches testimony in the beginning of his conuersion to haue beene the meanes to moue him to thinke well of the scriptures Ego that is I being a Manichee hauing not yet searched the scriptures nor hauing knowen the maiesty of the Gospell Non crederâ—m that is would not haue giuen any regard vnto nor haue beene tractable to learne as the whole booke De vtilit ate credends ad Honor aâ—uÌ„ doth shew namely cap. 9. For faith he true religion vnlesse those things De vtil creden ad ionorat cap. 15. be beleeued which if a man behaue himselfe well and be worthie he may aftervvard attaine to vnderstand vvithout some great commande of authoritie can by no meanes bee vvell entred into For as he saieth in the same booke betweene mans foolishnes and the most sincere truth of God Mans vvisedome is set as a middle thing for a vvise man is to follovve God a foolissh man is to follovv a vvise man yet as Augustine there sayeth not to put his trust in men but onely in the sonne of God the sincere eternall vnchangeable wisdome of God whereunto onely we ought to sticke who for our sakes namely to become our Teacher vouch safed to take vpon him mans nature Contr. Epist Fundam cap. 5. This most sincere wisedome Contr. Epist Fundam cap. 4. he settech in the first ranke though hauing to deale with a Manichee hee saieth he will omit to speake of it as that which holdes him without any doubting in the bosome of the Catholike church whereas in all his other motiues hee onely meaneth to shew that euen only in theÌ„ he hath better hould then the Manichees haue for their heresie For otherwise he preferreth the vndoubted proofes of scripture before the authority of the catholike Church If peraduenture saith he you can finde any thing in the Gospell verie plaine for Manichees Apostleship you shall vveaken vnto me the authoritie of the Catholikes and before if so manifest truth be shovved that Cap. 4. it cannot come into doubt it ought to bee preferred before all those things by vvhich I am held in the Catholike church 3. Catholice Ecclesiae meanes hee the Catholike church of all times or rather the Catholike church of the first times who hauing receiued the Scriptures by Apostolicall testimonie deliuered them to their posterity At whose hand Augustine receiued them not vpon their onely testimony but vpon the records of the Catholike Church of the first times which the church in his time had to shewe for the Canonicall and vndoubted Scriptures What his meaning is in this behalfe let Augustine himselfe declare Beleeue saith he this booke to be Matthewes which from that time wherein Matthew himselfe liued in the flesh by course of Contr. Faustrâ— Manich. lib. 28. cap. 2. Lib. 33. cap. 9 time not interrupted the Church through certaine succession of continuance hath brought along vnto this time And against the same heretick hee vseth a very apt comparison to this purpose there haue many bookes come forth vnder the name and title of secular authors which were neuer theirs as for example many bookes vnder the name of Hippocrates that were not his How are these descried Therefore are they refused saith Augustine because either they did not agree to those writings which were manifestly knowen to be theirs or were not acknowledged in the time wherein they wrote nor were commended to posteritie by themselues or those that were most familiar with them and specially of Hippocrates his bastard
Pardons Real presence Eare-shrift c. Therefore the Church of Rome is not the church of God The second Reason PAPIST That is the true faith and religion of Christ which the ancient and learned Fathers tanght maintained in the floursshing time of the Primitiue Church that is within the first 600 yeares next after Christ and this is so true that our Aduersaries themselues confesse it For M. Iewell sometime of Sarisbury cried out in this maner O Gregory ô Leo ô Augustine ô Ambrose c if we be deceiued you haue deceiued vs. The Church of England In his chaleng Sermon at Paules crosse also continueth their memorie in euerie Kalender as it doth of the blessed Apostles which fauour no question it would not afford them if it iudged them Heretikes or false teachers And as no Protestant I thinke dare say that they bee damned in hell for hereticall or false doctrine So most sure I am that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation upon them that liued so neere Christ then vpon such as liue now and be partiall in their owne cause PROTESTANT The floure of your reasons is now gone and indeede a floure for the bright beames of truth shining froÌ„ the Sunne of righteousnesse in the firmament of his word hath dimmed the grace and defaced the beautie of this your vaine best reason The second reason comming to rescue the former at vnawares thinking to smite his enemie wounded his fellowe to the heart For if the long continued pompe of your supposed Church be proofe enough that yours for sooth is the true Church and if the priuiledge of the true church which you chalenge to yours be that it cannot erre and consequently we are to beleeue what your Church teacheth what needed you then to haue abated this last 1000 yeares and to appeale to the flourishing time of the Primitiue church within the first 600 years Surely this is a plaine coÌ„fession against your selues that your long coÌ„tinued Church comes much short in dignity credit and authority of those 600 yeares Else why do you not rest contented with your owne testimony as being the preseÌ„t Oracle of the church but are faine to borrowe proofe of the Primitiue Church considering that if long continuance be the matter though your persons be yonger and your age but of yesterday yet by the addition of so many yeares your Church hath a grauer head and surely more wrinckles in her face then in those former times she had If therefore the ancienter testimonies do more stroÌ„gly proue the truth then is theremore certain trial of truth to be fetcht froÌ„ the early beginnings of the church then froÌ„ the long continued doating age as plainly appeareth of your Church And surely so did the Fathers within those 600 yeares they prooued their doctrines and maintained euery truth not by the face of long time but by the authority of the first times wherein Christ and his Apostles vndoubtedly taught the truth and by vndoubted records of diuine inspiration that is the holie scriptures commended the same to all posterity Augustine Epist 19. ad Hieron Ego solis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur c. I haue learned to yeeld only to those books of scripture which are now called Canonical that feare heuer that I firmely beleeue no author of theÌ„ in writing to haue coÌ„mitted anie error others I so reade that how holie or learned soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a matter to bee true because they so thought but because they were able to perswade me either by those canonical authors or by probable reason that it swarneth not from truth And therefore ad Vincentium Donatist Epist 48. Nâ—lâ— contra diuina testimonia c. Haue no will or desire out of the writings of Bishops togather cauils against the diuine testimonies first because this kind of writings is distinguished from the cannon c. But let vs see your reason That is the true faith which the ancient and learned Fathers taught in the first 600 yeares But they were of our religion and not of the Protestants Therefore ours is the true faith and not the Protestants First is your Proposition vniuersall or indefinite If you say The ancient and learned Fathers taught the true faith in all points necessarie to saluation we will not sticke with you but if you say that withall they taught nothing swaruing from the true faith neither can we yeeld it vnto you neither do the Fathers themselues yeeld it one to another neither doth any one of them presume to chalenge so much to him self neither wil your selues I am sure generally also affirme You know the contrary of Tertullian Cyprian and Origene Augustine did not in all things accord with Ierome nor allow whatsoeuer himselfe had written and these things are not vnknowne to you nor vnconfessed by you Wherefore if you will haue your proposition vniuersally taken it is false that whatsoeuer the Fathers taught is the true faith If indefinitly then will it fall out to be onely particular of some things suppose the most things that the ancient learned Fathers taught that they agreed with the true faith So that if you could proue that your Popish faith consisting in the points of your nouelties vnknowne to Christ and his Apostles and of your Apostafie from the true faith did in some points agree with some opinions of the learned Fathers yet would it not follow that yours is the true faith vnlesse you could manifestly proue that the Fathers therein held the true faith For your Popish faith partly hath an apish imitation of some outworne rites of ancient times as Vnctions Exorcismes c. partly carcheth hold of some of their errors as prayer for the dead partly proceedeth on boldly to affirme of those things whereof they spake doubtfully as Purgatory partly peruerteth and abuseth their words against their meanings sometime taking that literally which they meant tropically as Sacrifice Oblation Priest Altar c. sometime wresting their words from that good sense which they beare by proportion of their writings to that bad and absurd sense which since you haue violently drawne them to as Merit Poenitentiam agere Confession Satisfaction c. Contrariwise the Protestants religion is in substance the same which the ancient learned Fathers taught wherein the Protestants therefore follow them because they haue followed the Scriptures as hath bene often mainteined proued and demonstrated to your stopped eares and hardened hearts Briefly the Proposition vniuersally vnderstood is false The Assumption vniuersally vnderstood of all their faith and religion is false of your Popish faith Therefore the conclusion followes not But let vs see how strongly or rather straungely you proue your Proposition First you say it is so true that your aduersaries confesse it for M. Iewell sometime of Sarisburie c. That godly and learned Bishop was confident that you could not bring any one sufficient sentence out of
signe but in Christ whom they confessed by that signe Neither was any of them euer heard to say Aue cruxspes vnie◠Hatle ô crosse our onely hope As touching the match of equalitie that you make betweene the signe of the Crosse and the Crucifixe you may well thinke that the ancient church being so long without the image of the crucifixe namely aboue 600. yeares and yet so early vsing Sexta Synod Can 82. the signe of the Crosse did acknowledge no small difference betweene the one and the other A transient signe to signifie in gesture that which the word signifieth in speech and that onely for meanes of confession differeth much from an image made to represent the Sonne of God whose Godhead no colours nor proportion can expresse whose Manhood is not the whole of his person whose nature person and suffering is sufficiently yea abundantly described in the Scriptures for all men to see and heare neither is it possible for any art to make that visible in the image of the crucifixe which is to be knowne beleeued remembred of Christ and his sufferings according to the description of his word To leaue the Scriptures follow a crucifixe is to go from the Sunne in the firmament to the signe of the sunne painted in a table To adde to the word the helpe of the crucifix is to accuse the infufficiencie of the word The signe of the Crosse had no such vse in the beginning neither hath now with vs and therefore differeth largely from the signe of the crucifixe But it is worth the marking how barely you bring into comparison first the vse of the signe of the Crosse among vs and the vse thereof in poperie Do we teach to trust in that signe Do we pray to it do we worship it do we blesse with it do we fence arme our selues with it these are your Idolatries which you slily passe ouer as if there were a like vse of the signe of the Crosse with vs and with you Papists Secondly the signe of the Crosse and the image of the crucifixe as if you did only make the image of the crucifixe historically and not to worship it When we commit idolatrie with the signe of the Crosse then compare our vse thereof with your idolatries to the image of the crucisixe Lastly remember heere also that which I spake of the former The signe of the Crosse is only an indifferent externall rite among vs It is neither principle nor second nor third nor fourth nor any point of our Religion PAPIST Fourthly in Baptisme they vse Godfathers and abrenuntiation Why not also other ceremonies namely holy Oile and Exorcisme Holy oyle Exorcisme Reade the Scriptures and as little there is for the first as the last Aske the auncient Fathers and as much is found for the last as for the first PROTESTANT In the administration of the holy Sacraments the neerer we come to the institution of Christ the more chast and incorrupt we esteeme the administration of them to be and therefore haue taken that libertie which the Church of God euer vsed no further to follow the example of former times in matter of ceremone then we do euidently see to serue for edification By which rule no doubt sundrie ceremonies of auncient time vsed afterward grew out of vse as namely in Baptisme the tasting of milke and honie with certaine other ceremonies either for come linesse or instruction taken vp in the primitiue Church which afterwards were layd downe againe as the times and growth of the Church fawe most conuenient As touching Godfathers and abrenuntiation for that the one hath a good vse as well to prouide that only the children of beleeuing parents be brought to Baptisme as also to commit the care of the infants education to men for godlinesse and sound faith approued and the other expresseth the couenant on the behalfe of the infant baptized wherewith he standeth charged the mention whereof serueth as well to call to the mindes of others before baptized what they owe to God by the couenant betweene God and them sealed in baptisme as also to enter the obligation of the infants faith and obedience whereunto as soone as his yeares admit he must know himselfe to be bound by the law of his baptisme Therfore our Church of a care that all things may be done orderly and to edification and that the end of Baptisme may be attained hath vpon good reason continued these two When you shall be able to shew vnto vs as serious profitable vse of your Exorcisme and Oyle then may we enter into consulation whether in so lawfull libertie to alter or refuse vnnecessarie ccremonies it were not much better to reason you haue so superstitiously profaned them besides the slender vse to leaue them onely to you then after so long a farewell to giue them new entertainement specially Scripture saying nothing for them and the auncient Fathers although they testifie of the vse of these as also some others by you neglected yet in matter of ceremonie allow freedome to euery Church in euery time These also are no principles of our Religion PAPIST Fiftly the booke alloweth the vse of the Surplice in their Seruice and Sacramonts vvhy then may not Copes Vestiments and Copes Vestiments such like be admitted also For no more can they shew for the one then vve for the other PROTESTANT Multitude of needlesse ceremonies is alwayes a burthen and therefore a bondage both in the yoke of obseruation and also in the taile of superstition whereunto through blindnesse and carnall deuotion men commonly fall And therefore our church though it retaine the Surplice as most remote both in the originall and perpetuall vse from your superstition and that onely for comelinesse without putting any religion in it yet both is and ought to be sparing in affecting the multitude of your theatricall or stage-like vestiments which would rather disguise then a dorne the Church of Christ And herein our church hath followed the rule of Scripture which albeit of loue and for peace it teacheth to suffer some things not necessary yet streightly warneth the church not to be intaugled againe in the yoke of boudage And so there is Scripture against many and those Gal. 5. 1. before refused more then against one and that neuer out of vse And heere againe I may not forget still to put you in mind that far it is from our church to esteeme the surplice or any vse thereof as a principle or any part of our religion PAPIST Sixtly in the Collect vpon Michaelmas day they confesse that the Angels defend and protect our life how then can they denie Praying to Saints that they know our necessities and praiers and so no reason can they alleage why we may not pray to them as well as we do to our mortall brethren PROTESTANT Protect is not in the Collect but only succour and defend For we yeeld only a ministerie to
that course in trying out the true meaning of the scriptures Why do you Trid. Concil Sess 4. Dec. 2. without all conference of places tie all men to such a sense onely as the holy mother Church that is your Popish Church holdeth to whom you say it belongeth to iudge of Trid. Concil ibidem the true sence of scriptures or whereupon all the Fathers consent in one which you know to be imposible to finde Why do you exclude the originall Bibles and bind all men in expositions to your vulgare Latine as authenticall and vpon no pretence to be refused Whatsoeuer you boast your owne coÌ„sciences tell you that conference of places and recourse to the fountaines will do your cause more harme then good And heere I wish the reader to obserue how sly lie you insinuate that in conference of places recourse to the fountaines or any other help that we vse there is onely probility and therfore these meanes will not serue there is no rest till you come to that which you call Gods Church in general councels which in conclusion shall be all laied in the Popes lap of which pierlesse meanes to know the vndoubted sense of scripture it is maruaile that Augustine in his bookes De Doctrina Christiana haÌ„dling that point at large forgatto speak specially if as you pretend this be the onely sure way that worthy Father spent his time belike in those meanes that haue onely a probability in them as the Phrase of scripture the circumstances of places comparison with other places analogie of faith c. And neuer thought of that which by your saying is worth all the rest As you haue onely boasted of conference of places and recourse to the fountaines so do you also of the consent of auncient Fathers whereunto your selues will not be bound For when Cardinal Caietane as Andradius Dcfens fid .. Trid. lib. 2. reporteth professeth that sometimes he will inteprete the scriptures against the straeme of the Doctors and exhorteth the readers to trie his writings not by other mens preiudice but by context of scripture some accused him for it as a fautor of the Lutherans But Andradius defendes him and giues his reasons First because the Fathers in infinit places specially of the old testamet leauing the literall sense which he confesseth doth onely serue to proue doctrine runne vpon other senses Heere a man may freely depart from their exposition and search for the literall sense Secondly because the Fathers very ofteÌ„ seeking for the true sense of the scriptures haue giuen senses very diuerse and vnlike one to another which if it be true when will you finde the consent of the Fathers about the sense of Scripture Therefore Andraduis concludes that no man is bound to their expositions but is at free libertie forsaking them all to trie what he can do by Gods help and to find out another new sense vnlike to the ancient Fathers expositions Be not offended with him he doth you more seruice then you are ware of For now you shal be at liberty to put vpon the scripture what sense you will though it be against the streame of the Fathers Thus you followe the coonsent of the ancient Fathers to whose sleeue when it comes to the iumpe you will not be pinned Andradius to serue your turne can alleage Augustines iudgment Epist 3. ad Fortunat. alleaged Dist 9. Can. Neque Nobis enim licebit c. For it shall bee lawfull for vs sauing the honorable respect which is due to the holy Fathers to mislike and reiect something in their writings if peraduenture we find that they haue otherwise iudged then the truth will beare by Gods help vnderstood either of others or of our selues Whereunto we will also adde what the same Augustine saith De vnitat Eccles cap. 10. Nemo mihi dicat c. Let no man say to me Or what saied Donatus to me or what saith Parmenianus or Pontius or anie of them for xe may not consent no not to Catholike Bishops if perhaps they be any where deceiued So that they haue held any opinioÌ„ against the Canonical scriptures May not these testimonies of Augustine as wel be alleaged held good on our part as on yours To conclude in this point against your appeale to Scriptures you vsually obiect that Heretikes alleage scriptures It is true and Diuels too but corrupted and Christ alleageth them against the Diuel and bids all men search them But do not heretickes also alleage the Fathers as boldly as you that call your selues Catholikes you cannot be ignorant of the mouthie clamor of Dioscorus the Euty chian hereticke in the Councell of Chalcedon I haue the testimonie Concil Chalced. Act. 1. of the auncient Fathers Athanasius Gregorie and Cyril in manie places I am cast out with the Fathers I defend the Fathers opinions I transgresse not in anie thing c. If we may not build vpon Scriptures because heretikes alleage them much lesse may we vpon Fathers which heretikes also alleage Your next meane is The common practice of Gods Church Indeede this rule will serue your turne well For what meane you by Gods Church Forsooth the Popish church So then no interpretation of Scripture may bee good that crosseth any practice of the Popish church so you shall bee sure to keepe all whole You should in wisedom haue concealed this as a mysterie among your selues For what is it else but a conspiracie that whatsoeuer the Scripture saith in words it must at no hand bee vnderstoode to be against Popish practise By this tyrannie your Popes haue gotten the start fall the world in so much that though he runne Dist â—0 Si Papa to hell himselfe and draw innumerable soules with him yet no mortall man may presume to reprooue him because he is to iudge all and none to iudge him Follow him to hell you that will we will follow our Lord Iesus as his word leadeth vs. For him we knowe to be the way the truth and the life Thus notably you proue that you haue the true sense of the Scriptures and therefore are the true Church Yours is the true sense because it is confirmed by your owne practise And why so Forsooth you say so What is this else but aske my fellow if I be a theefe First you set vp a wicked practise then you peruert the Scriptures to maintaine it and afterward prooue your interpretation of Scriptures by your practise Your practise is good Why the Scripture as you vnderstand it is for your practise And why must the Scripture be so vnderstoode because your practise so requires First you get both swords into your hands then you prooue it by Ecce due gladij behold heere two swords First Extrau cont de maior obed cap. Vnam sanctam you get aboue Emperours and Kings then you prooue it by Inprincipio non in principijs in the beginning not in the beginnings Such is your practise and such
any Father or Councell for the space of 600. yeares after Christ to proue any of those points named in that chalenge not that he made Fathers or Councels the rule of his faith but rather affirmeth with Augustine Sancta Scriptura nostrae doctrinae regulam De bono viduit cap. 1. The holy scripture pitcheth the rule of our doctrine Rom. 1. 16. figit and if he had found either in Fathers or Councels any thing swaruing from this rule he would haue forsaken them and cleaued to the Scriptures as he hath told you in his learned Apologie We know that the Gospell of Iesus Christ is the power of God vnto saluation and that therein consisteth eternall life And as Paul warneth vs we do not heare no Gal. 1. 8. not an Angel of God though he come from heauen if he go about to pull vs from any part of this Doctrine Secondly you say the Church of England continueth their memorie in the Kalendar as it doth of the blessed Apostles c. What meane you so to ouer-reach doth the Church of England put no difference between them and the Apostles for so much you would imply and must or else it comes too short of your purpose The Church of England preserueth their memorie as of godly and painefull men that bestowed themselues to serue the Church of God but yet it doth not lift them aboue the degree of men and therefore doth not exempt them from erring nor their writings from errors which immunitie is proper to the Scriptures inspired of God and cannot be ascribed to any writings of men neuer so godly or learned so long as they are written onely by a priâ—at spirit Neither is euery teacher that faileth in some point of truth to be condemned as a false teacher much lesse as an heretike and therefore it may be doubted and denied that all that the Fathers of those times haue written is true and yet they not reputed either as heretikes or false teachers Thirdly you say No Protestant you thinke dare say that they are damned in hell No verily and yet you picking out those errors which vnto them were veniall because they built vpon the foundation which is Iesus Christ alone and making them principles of your faith and religion and laying them indeed as another foundation besides Christ may be damned in so doing except you repent Fourthly Most sure you say you are that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ theu vpon such as liue now and are partiall in their owne cause Men of reason in matters of reason may relie vpon men But men of faith in matters of saluation wil relie only vpon Christ the Author finisher and foundation of our faith the Heb. 12. 2 1 Cor. 3. 11. Heb. 2 10. 1 Tim. 2. 5. Act. 7. 37. Iohn 14. 6. Prince and Mediat or of our saluation the only undoubted Prophet and teacher of the true and vndoubted way vnto eternall life in a word the onely way the onely truth the onely life But see with what cunning you deale Your simple sheepe must relie their saluation vpon those Fathers who those Fathers were what they wrote and how they shall vnderstand them you must be their interpreters So in effect they must relie their saluation vpon you which is against your owne rule For you liue now and are iustly to be supposed partiall in your owne cause Againe in this your comparison of persons vpon whom we ought rather to relie our faith marke how slily you shut out Christ and his word and seeke to cast an imputation vpon the Protestants that they teach men to rely their faith vpon them which is as far from them as it is from you to teach your Disciples to relie their faith vpon Christ and his word No no we counsell the faithfull as Christ our Master doth to search the Scriptures and with the Apostle to Iohn 5. 39. build their faith vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Eph 2. 20. whereof Iesus Christ is the head and corner stone Lastly God open your eies to acknowledge the strength of truth which out of your owne mouth beareth witnes against your selfe you say that men ought rather to relie their saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ Ought not then all faithfull men most of all to relie their saluation vppon them that liued neerest vnto Christ And who liued neerer him then the holie Apostles and Euangelistes Or what writinges came more immediatly from him then theirs especially considering that these were chosen by him selfe to be his witnesses vnto all the ends of the world and Act. 1. 8. Eph. 4. 13 vnto the end of the world by the writings inspired of God Wherefore that you may see how willing we are to accorde with you in the truth we confesse and graunt that faithfull men ought to relie their saluation rather vpon Psal 19. 4. Rom. 10. 18. those that saw the Lord Iesus Christ and were his witnesses and haue stretched out the line of their writinges to the worlds end theÌ„ vpon any or all that haue beene since whether they be Councels Popes Bishops or Doctors of what place holines or learning soeuer Thus forcibly haue you proued your Proposition that whatsoeuer the fathers of the first 600. years wrot is thetrue faith for that must be the extent of your proposition or else it will not serue your turne the best and strongest part of your proofe which you haue set in the last place makes most against your selfe as hath bin shewed Now then let vs come to your Assumption PAPIST But as certaine it is that they were of our religion and not of the Protestants which is so euident that no man which peruseth their works can make anie doubt thereof and to giue an instance Saint Austen that liued 1200. yeares agoe and was so wonderfull for learning that happilie since the Apostles time the world had neuer his like one whome the Protestantes also soeme most to admire and like of and this ancient holie and learned Father beleeued and taught them yea and the whole Church of his time aâ— we beleeue teach now If any maÌ„ make doubt hereof let him read his 22. book and 8. chap. De ciuitate Dei he shal find as much as I affirme concerning prayer to Saints reuerence to Relikes and Pilgrimage to holie places three of the most odious points as they thinke in all our religion PROTESTANT To proue that the Fathers of the first 600. were of your religion and not of the Protestants you tell vs that one of them S. Augustine was so Doth this proue that all were so Next how proue you that Saint Augustine was so because as you pretend he held some points of your religion as Praier to Saints reuerence to Relikes Pilgrimage to holie places praier for the dead Do these points coÌ„prehend al your religion Againe may it not
thing so coÌ„trary to our proud nature had not the Son of God himselfe planted the doctrine no power could haue brought it into the Church Is it not contrary to the high estate of Kings that are in Gods steed vpon earth to submit their scepters to the Pope of Rome to lie downe for him to treade on their neckes to kisse his foote and his Legates knee to hold his stirrope to leade his horse by the bridle and go on foote by him to suffer him to pill and poll their countries by his prouisions dismes annates and such other exactions and to sequâ—ster out of their hands spiritual causes and persons and to draw them to the Court of Rome The tyranny of the Pope of Rome hath brought these wonders to passe will you thereof conclude that the sonne of God hath planted these tyraÌ„niesâ— so may you conclude for 1 King 18. 18. Baals Priests it is a thing so contrary to the tender nature of man for men to gash and launce their owne flesh that no power could haue brought it into vse if God himselfe had not planted it So may you conclude for those that caused 2 King 23. 10. their sons and daughters to passe through the fire vnto Moâ—ech that no power could haue brought them to it it being so contrary to naturall piety if God himselfe had not planted it The scripture hath told vs what Antichrist shal do He shal make all both smal and great rich and poore free Apoc. 1â— 1â— Apoc. 17. 3. and bond to receiue his marke in their right hand or in their foreheads and the Kings of the earth shall giue thier power and authoritie to the beast In a word superstitioÌ„ hath caried idolaters to crueltie against their owne bodies and flesh foolish prodigality of their owne substance base seruility in their owne persons and extreame fury in their minds and senses as the idolatries of the Gentiles do aboundantly proue Now to that which Caluine saith in old time it was free when you cannot deny it which is sufficient to conuince the tyranny of your Romish torturing shrift you say Do we not know that the communion was so in old time you may know that the Church in old time did celebrate the Lords supper on euery Lords day as for the people they did not require them all of necessity to receiue euery day yet appointed them to receiue at least at the Natiuity of our Lord at Easter and Pentecost as appeareth in Concil Agatheâ—s alleadged De Consecrat dist 2. cap. seculares Not thereby exempting them to receiue no oftner but exhorting them to receiue often and yet prouiding that at least they should receiue at some times What sopln strie is this because at other times of the yeare they were free to chuse at what time besides the three named they would communicate so they did all communicate then therefore the communion was in old time free as if the Church required no man at any time to receiue the communion Thus wily you are to beguile your selfe and those that will be led by you Christ left it not free for Christians to communicate or not to communicate neither did the Church of old time so obserue it Christ left it free for men to confesse in the eare of a Priest or not to confesse and the Church of old time so obserued it Will any man now say that the communion in old time was so free as auricular confession was wherefore although the Church of England treading in the steps of the ancient Church may make a lawe to bind men to the communion three times in the yeare yet may not any Church make the like lawe for your auricular confession vnlesse they can shewe as good warrant for the institution thereof as they can for the institution of the Lords supper By the way let be here obserued that you thus wrangling against Caluine to make a shew as if Christ himselfe and his Apostles had planted â—urioular confession bring not one worde of Scripture to proue it PAPIST Concerning also the sacrifice of the Altar and the Real presence no small pointr we haue antiquitre on our side For Sâ—int Austen is therein so plaine in his Manuel that one Thomas Rogers an English man who hath translated that booke is inforced to alter one whole Chapter to make the holy Doctor against his wil Chapter 11. Printed by Peter Short 15 97. to agree with their doctrine Another chapter there is quoth he though not clean left out yet applied froÌ„ an ill to a good purpose as the 11. chapter where that which was spoken of the sacrifice of the Altar is applied vnto our sacrifice of thankesgiuing or of the Real carâ—â—lpresence of Christ vnto his spiritual being at the coÌ„munion Thus we bâ—â—e S. Austen of our opinioÌ„ â— our enemie coÌ„feseth and so consequentlie the rest of the Fathers For no reason â—â—â—one vs to thinke that he did in so important a matter dissent from all other of his time Manie more questions might he touched vvherein they grant vs venerable antiquitie but these few being verie weightie may suffice for all such as he desirous of truth and saluation of their soules PROTESTANT What Maister Rogers hath done in translating Augustines Manuell and namely the eleuenth chapter I know not because I haue not his booke but sure I am he needed not alter or decline one worde there writen by Augustine for feare to giue any countenance to Popish sacrifice or carnall presence All that Augustine hath here in shew to serue your turne is that he calleth the Lords supper Mirabile caleste sacrificium a wonderfull and heauenlie sacrifice But what meaneth he by the terme sacrifice himselfe there interpreteth namely that Christ ordeined it to be offered in commemorationem mortis passionis for a remembrance not for a repetition of his death and passion Likewise in other places he speaketh to the same purpose as cont Faust lib. 20. cap. 21. Huius sacrificis caro sanguis c. The flesh and bloud of this sacrifice before the comming of Christ was promised by sacrifices of resemblance in his passion it was deliuered or rendred by the truth it selfe but after the ascention of Christ it is celebrated by the sacrament of remembrance and Epist 23. he saith that Christ is offered vp in the sacrament for the similitude betweene the sacrament and the thing whereof it is a sacrament that is the offering of Christ and generally of euery sacrifice else where he saith The visible sacrifice is asacrament that is an holie signe of the invisible De Ciu. Dei lib. 10 cap. 5. sacrifice And as he is aleaged De Consecra Dist 2. cap. Hoc est The offering of the flesh which is done by the Priests hands is called Christs passion death crucifying not in truth of the thing but in a signifying mystoris And the glosse vpon that chapter in the word Calestis Heauonlic that
himselfe the mercie of God forgiuing his sinnes and haue his conscience in regard of those sinnes still troubled It is therefore vntrue and sheweth want of faith that you say you thinke all the sinnes that come to minde should trouble a Christian mans conscience And yet it agreeth well with your Popish spirit which is the Spirit of bondage and not of adoption of feare and not of promise We say indeed that death is the Rom. 8. 15. 6 23. wages of all sin and therefore all sinne is mortall and damnable but we say that no sinne shall be laide to the charge of Gods Rom. 8. 33. 34. chosen whom none shall condemne because God himselfe iustifieth them Christ died and rose againe for them Secondly you obiect that the same scripture which commandeth the confession of some sinnes commandeth as well the confession of all It is very true that the scripture commandeth to confesse all sinnes but to God Of confession to men there is no other commandement but generall Confesse your sinnes one to another and pray one for another Which Iames 5. 16. giues as much authority to euery brother as to a Priest to heare confessions For of confession in the eare of a Priest you can shew no tittle in the scripture Howbeit as by the aduise and counsell of holy Scripture Christians are taught to ease their oppressed consciences into the bosoms of their faithfull brethren to the end they may be partakers of their comfort and prayers so we thinke it also a godly course and a ready meane to find comfort if the sheepe of the flocke do open their woundes to their pastor who hath wisdome and faithfulnes to powre in wine and oile that is to minister vnto them the word of admonition and consolation and this is the meaning of our Communion booke but what is this to Popish Eare shrift Yea but the booke prescribeth also how after confession the Priest must absolue him and the maner of words You shoulde haue dealt faithfully if you had set downe the whole truth Our booke appointeth the Priest first to pray vnto our Lord Iesus Christ that he would grant vnto the sicke person truely repenting and beleeuing in him forgiuenes of all his sinnes as acknowledging it to be the onely right of the Lord Iesus Christ to forgiue sins Secondly presupposing the sicke man truely to repent and to beleeue in Christ it appointeth the Priest by the authority of our Lord Iesus Christ who hath left power to his Church to absolue repentant sinners which power is theÌ„ executed by the Priest to absolue the sicke from all sinnes To absolue I say not to forgiue For Christ onely forgiueth as our booke there vnderstandeth forgiuenesse and as it is vnderstood in the Lords prayer and as it is vnderstood in the Lords prayer and is interpreted by the Prophet Dauid Psalme 32. 1. 2. By couering and not imputing sinnes The Church by her ministers absolueth that is declareth to the repentant and beleeuing by authority of Christs promise Sent. lib. 4. Dist 18. Nec ideo seq that their sinnes are forgiuen So saith Peter Lombard This truelie we maie saie and thinke that onelie God remitteth and reteineth sinnes and yet hath giuen power to his church to binde and loose but he bindeth and looseth after one sort and the church after another For he bindeth by himselfe onelie so hee forgiueth sinne because he both clenseth the soule from the inwarde blot and looseth it from the debt of eternall death But he hath not granted so much to the Priests to whom he hath onelie giuen power to bind and loose that is to shew that â—en are either bound or loosed And Bonauenture in his disputes vpon it expounding the words of Ambrose Sacerdos officium exhibet â—ed nullius potestatis iura exercet That is the Priest executeth his office but exerciseth not the right of anie power writeth thus For Ambrose meanes to saie that sinnes are said to be remitted of the Priest not in manner of a doer but in manner of a minister Against both Ambrose Non per modum efficientis sed per modum ministrantis Conâ—â—l â—rid Sess 4. cap. 6. can 9. and your Maister of the sentences your Tridentine councell crieth Anathema giuing to the Priest in their sacramentall absolution not a bare ministrie to pronounce and declare but a iudiciall act whereby the sentence is pronounced by him as by the Iudge So making the comfort of him that is absolued to depend not onely vpon Christs promise but vpon the person of the Priest absoluing which is farre from the doctrine or meaning of our Church either in the Communion booke or any where else And therefore what affinity soeuer bee betweene your Latine words and our English there is no affinity betweene that comfortable absolution which our booke appoineth Gods minister in the name of Christ to publish to the humble and repentant sinner and your Popish and Pharisaical absolution Lastly this order of confession and absolution as they are set downe in the communion booke is indeede some part of the practise of our relition but no principle of our religion and therefore you do much abuse your Clients when you make them beleeue that this and other orders are any of the principles of our religion PAPIST Thirdly the booke alloweth the signe of the Crosse in Baptisme why then is it not likewise lawfull in other things What word of The signe of the Crosse Images God willeth the one and forbiddeth the other and if the signe of the Crosse be good why not also other images especially of Christ crucified That teâ—t which they can bring to iustific the one vvill also serue for the other and that which they shall alleage to ouerthrovv the image of the Crucifixe will giue small rest to the signe of the Crosse PROTESTANT It is false that you say that the booke alloweth the signe of the Crosse in Baptisme That signe by the ordinance of the booke hath nothing to do in Baptisme It is onely made a signe of confession after Baptisme which vse our Church hauing receiued as continued from antiquitie in that manner without interruption considering how notably it serued the faithfull in old times to manifest their confession of Christ crucified thought meete still to retaine But as for reuiuing any other vse of it after so long disuse our Church thought it might rather tend to superstition then to edification the rather because your Popish confidence in such bodily exercises had greatly corrupted the primitiue simplicitie of the vulgar vse thereof among the first Christians There is no word of God that willeth the vse of it nor anie word of God that I know that forbiddeth the bare vse of it It grew out of a desire the faithfull had to testifie before the enemies of Christ their faith in Christ crucified In the vse thereof it seemeth they felt further comfort not hauing confidence in the
it may appeare that from the beginning vnto the present time wherein this noueltie sprang vp this point of originall sinne hath beene so constantlie kept within the faith of the church c. Howbeit the most cleare and full authoritie of this opinion is eminent in the holie Canonicall bookes Likewise ad Bonifac. cont duas epist Pelag. Lib. 4. cap. 8. I thinke it pertaineth to our charge not onclie to bring the holie Canonicall Scriptures witnesses against them which alreadie wee haue sufficientlie done but also out of the bookes of holis men who haue handled them before vs with famous commendation great glorie to bring some documetns or euidences not for that the authoritie of anie disputer is equalled by vs to the Canonicall bookes but to admonish such who thinke that these fellowes say somewhat after what sort the Catholike Bishops following the holie Scriptures haue spoken of these points before the nouell and vaine words of those men In like maner vsing S. Augustines words we say to you We thinke it a part of our charge not onely to bring as witnesses against you the Canonicall Scriptures which alwayes we doe in the first place but also to produce testimonies out of the writings of holy Fathers not that wee mathch their authorie with the Canonicall Scriptures but to let them see who thinke you say somewhat the before your nouell and vaine boasting the Catholike Bishops and Fathers following the Scriptures haue taught as wee doe Which in all the fundamentall points of religion hath been againe and againe prooued vnto you In which points only Augustine maketh reckoning of the consent of Catholike writers Other points saith he there are about which euen the learnedest and best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree Cont. Iul. Pelag lib. 1. among themselues alwaies sauing whole the frame of faith and in some one matter some say better and more trulie then others But this about which we now deale belongeth to the very foundations of faith speaking of originall sinne in children When following Augustines example you first alleadge Scripture and then annexe the consent of Fathers as treading in the steps of the Scriptures wee will honour the Fathers iudgements for the Scriptures sake which they follow This is all which Augustine did or requires others to doe Neither do Augustines words by you alleadged serue your turne For what if the Fathers did constantly hold the Doctrine of originall sinne spread ouer all men and hauing receiued it from their Fathers so deliuered it to their posteritie Doth it follow that Augustine beleeued it either onely or principally because they did constantly teach it You heard the contrary out of Augustine before that that point is clearely and fully to be prooued by the Canonical Scriptures which euen his owne words in this very place doe testifie They all found it before any of them deliuered it Where did they finde it but in the Scriptures The consent of Fathers may helpe to vnderstand the Scriptures but it is no rule to vnderstand them by but rather the Scriptures are the rule to iudge of those truthes wherein the Fathers do consent Lastly Paul indeed saith that Christ gaue vnto his Church pastors and teachers that we should not be caried about with euery vvind of doctrine but Paul saith not that Pastors and Doctors may cary vs about with what doctrines they list or that we haue no libertie to trie their doctrine whether it be of God or no. God the Father saith of his Son Iesus Christ This is my well-beloued sonne heare him Yet our Sauior Christ commandeth his Church to search the Scriptures Paul was called to be an Apostle not by man but by Iesus Christ yet did the men of Beraea trie his doctrine by the Scriptures and are therefore commended by the holy Ghost Will you then be aboue our Sauiour Christ and his holy Apostle Paul to challenge vnto your selues vnder the name of Pastors and Doctors an irregular authoritie to leade the Church of God whither you list and must they followe you blindfold till you fall into the pit For while you pretend to assume this prerogatiue for the Fathers as Pastors and Doctors you meane by that sleight cunningly to conuey it to your selues But if he that prophocieth must prophecie according to the proportion Rom. 12. 6. Gal. r. 8. 1. Tim. r. 13. Tit. 1. 9. of faith if we may not receiue strange doctrine from an Apostle or Angel if Timothie be charged to keepe the true paterne of wholesome words if all Bishops must hold fast the wholesome word according to doctrine if we be charged not to beleeue euerie 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 2. 3. spirit but to trie them because manie false prophets are gone out into the world and for tryall of them haue our rules in the Scripture it will not discharge vs in the day of iudgement to say that we followed as we were led by Pastors and Doctors It will be sayd vnto vs that we had Moses and the Prophets Luk. 16. 29. 1. Pet. ◠19. Ioh. 5. 39. that we had a most sure word of the Prophets that we were commanded to search the Scriptures that we had warning long ago by the Prophet Ieremie Heare not the words of the Ierem. 23. 16. 22. Prophets that prophecie vnto you and teach you vanity they speake the vision of their owne heart and not out of the mouth of the Lord. If they had stood in my counsell and declared my words to my people then they should haue turned them from their euill wayes To conclude we follow the Fathers and all other true Pastors and Doctors in that which they truly teach vs not because we haue heard it of them but because we are so taught in the Scriptures as the men of Samaria beleeued not for the womans report but because they had heard Christ himselfe Ioh. 4. 41. 42. PAPIST They obiect and say that there is no reason to preferre the Fathers before the Scriptures and captiously they demand whether it be better to follow the openions of men that might erre and be deceiued or the sentence of God himselfe that 〈◊〉 neither deceine nor be deceiued But answer is soone returned that the question betwixt vs and them is not as they would make simple people beleeue whether the Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit but that which I wish al diligētly to note whether for the interpretation true sense of the scriptures we should not rather beleeue the anciēt holy and learned Fathers then those that liue in our daies so far frō the◠Apostles age neither for vertue or learning cōperable to the old Saints of Gods Church Let the question be propounded thus then none of indifferēt iudgmēt wil euer make questiō of the matter PROTESTANT As cunningly as you would shift off the true state of the question by propounding it in our names imperfectly at the first and then of