Selected quad for the lemma: book_n
Text snippets containing the quad
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A80418
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A coole conference between the Scottish commissioners cleared reformation, and the Holland ministers apologeticall narration, brought together by a well-willer to both.
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1644
(1644)
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Wing C6045; Thomason E35_15; ESTC R19126
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16,004
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18
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first yet afterwards were of greater number in one City then did or could ordinarily assemble in one place for the worship of God and therefore had a plurality of Pastors and Officers which made a common Presbytery for governing the whole Apologet. These words makes a speech of a Judge at an Assizes touching Lent-fastings to come to mind Who said that he could prove that Lent-fastings were of Apostolicall institution for the last six hundred yeers Whereupon one standing by said to another of his friends That all the craft and cunning lay in this for the Judge to prove it to be Apostolicall for the first six hundred yeers or the first hundred or first fâ—urty yeers But to return to the Apologie whose words are milde and soft but as wooll-packs deadning Cannon shot that the bullets can do no hurt can make no battery We could not Apol. p. 13. saith the Apologie but imagine that the first Churches planted by the Apostles were ordinarily of no more in one City at first then might make Observe that the same argument that is urged to prove a Presbytery was formerly urged by the Bishops to prove an Episcopacy up one entire congregation ruled by their own Elders that also preached to them For that in every City where they came the number of converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundrie Congregations or that the Apostles should stay the setting up of any Churches at all untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication as might make such a Presbyteriâ—ll combination we did not imagine We found also the Nonconformists in their answer to the arguments used for Episcopall government over many Churches brought from the instances of the multitudes of beleevers at Jerusalem and other places and Cities mentioned in the New Testament to assert that it could not be infallibly proved that any of those we read of in the Acts or elsewhere were yet so numerous as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation in those first times So the Apologie The word afterwards hath a large extent and therefore dâ—â—h noâ— punctually tell us whether you mean after the Apostles tiâ—es or when and therefore doth nothing weaken the Apoâ—â—â—â—iâ— and so you and we must leave it as we found it unblemished in this as the rest which is the onely designe in this paper leaving it to disputation to be discussed out Reformat pag. 13. To aâ—â—uch when we are not challenged that we 〈…〉 to the Magistrate then the reformed Churches do they being 〈…〉 their own principles of Ecclesiasticall government may suffer a 〈◊〉 â—â—â—stâ—uction then we our selves would willingly undergo or put upon the intentions of men who seek not their own things but the things of Jesus Christ Apolog. Let the world judge whether the Apologizers and those of their judgements were not challenged when the Peaceable Plea cals them not onely in the book but in the title of the book in the face of the world Independents Which the Apologie could not but upon just grounds count as a proud and insolent title for any Apol p 23. to assume and as a trumpet of defiance against what ever power Spirituall or Civill from them that should be conceived to own it and therfore do in expresse words there abhor it and detest it that Churches and Magistrates should not loose the true face of their judgement in such a swelling title For if upon a grosse errour of Refâ—rm p. 23. Câ—â—â—ule Bezâ—m de Haereticis a civili Magistr puâ—â—â—ndis an another Church they dare exercise onely a non communion with it which after you call no authoritie then there is more left for the Magistrate to do then when you have excommunicated it which you call there your power So likewise when a classicall Presbyterie of many Ministers and lay-men and those of great place and power in the Common-wealth shall authoritatively rule all matters of sixtie or an hundred Parishes that are but mixtly Ecclesiasticall but partly secular or civill if some of them not so altogether one would think now that here were left lesse to the Magistrate then when every one of those severall Parishes regularly gathered into a Church way do meddle with nothing as Churches but things purely Ecclesiasticall leaving the rest to the Magistrate who is the civill power over them all We give for the present some small instance to take off the prejudices of us that may be instilled into the minds of civill power by the abhorred name of Independancy and not to bring any or their way into an odium with any as we hope they in their books that have so oft up the names of Separation Brownisme Independancy Popular Anarchie c. do not intend to render us odious For till Church government be clearly discussed according to the Scriptures the scale is even which side to use your own words doth most imitate the Pagans and Infidels of old the Papists Prelates and Arminians Reform p. 13. of late to make the way of Christ hatefull to Princes and Magistrates And till it doth appear whose principles are closest to the rule of the Word all will say in your phrase that they give fully as much as any to the Magistrate as God in his Word giveth them and so cannot be more or lesse And for our own parts to wash our own hearts from finister intentions we wish a curse upon those designes that shall flatter men to facilitate a forming and winding in of a Discipline that shall not be the closest to the Scriptures Reformat pag. 17. No sooner is the Prelaticall party by the power and blessing of God begun to be subdued in this Island but ariseth unexpectedly the opposition on the other hand waiting the opportunity stronger then it was before which moved some of our Divines of late to write on this hand in defence of the government of the reformed Churches as others had done before them in other Churches In France Beza against Morelius Sadeel Two Nationall Synods also of the reformed Churches in France the one at Orleans 1561. Another at Rochel 1571. Apolog. It should seem by your own quotations here that long before your No sooner c. not staying to wait this opportunitie learned and godly men have written neer an hundred yeers since against Classicall Presbyteries and for Congregationall Churches Besides those many worthy famous men which you quote with honour in your Peaceable Plea As for Mr. Beza against Morelius Sadeel his Tract is not at hand and therefore we cannot now speak to it particularly But this â—ou know that an honest Aeriuâ— a Presbyter is condemned by a piâ—â—s and learned Epiphâ—nius as guiltie of heresie for saying that a Bâ—â—hop did not differ from a Presbyter but that a Presbyter was as high in dignity and order as the Bishop * Quid est Episcopus ad Presbyterum Nihil hic differt ab illo unus enim
est ordo unus inquit honor una digâ—itas Imponit manus Episcopus ita etiam Presbyter c. Epip contra haeres li. 3. To. 1. ca. 75. That to celebrate the Passeover was Jewish That the prayâ—rs of the lâ—ving did not prâ—fit the dead That their ordained set Fâ—â—sts Qâ—â—rta pro Sabbató were not to be observed Yet the same Epiphanius who flourished about the yeer 365. after Christ so long since confesseth that Aerius was not alone in this opinion but multitudes more keeping Magnum mâ—ltituâ—iâ—ent virorum aâ— muliâ—â—um allexit 〈…〉 aâ— fibrii 〈…〉 together inform of a particular Church with the said Aerius their Teacher all of them living very soberly For the two Synods you mention for want of copies of them nor do we in this businesse desire much to turn over books but take what is ready at hand unlesse hereafter we shall be forced thereunto we shall speak but a word in generall that as one of the best of our English Articles tâ—ll us 〈◊〉 have and may erre therefore Synods If Paphnutius were alive he could tell us by experience Christs enlightning and leading presence is much according to the orderly gathering and managing of Synods And for the Protestant Churches in Franâ—e If we may beleeve our eares hearing the reports of some of the Ministers of the French Churches here in England considerable too as the Dutch or our eyes in reading the Ecclesiasticall Discipline of the reformed Churches in France many materiall particulars and passages are for us which we omit here as not intending a dispute or largenesse in any thing So that if things be weighed we are not so alone or heterogeneall as that we deserve the opinion that we should not be for the Reformed Churches so far forth as they be reformed at least as much as the Presbyterians To those intimations of Reform pag. 19. that the Apologizers exile was volunâ—ary they carried away Churches with them and left the â—ther Churchâ—s that stayed behind exposed to the enemie The Apol. hath no more to say at this time but this That their exile at most was but as voluntaâ—y as the Seamens * Voluntate â—â—xta semiplena with an unwilling will casting their lading into the Sea to save themselves from drowning They took no more then Christ gave them when they persecute you in one place fly into another as Christ and his parents did And they did no more expose the Church to the enemie then as in all ages other godly Colonies of Saints have done in departing to Francfort Holland and New England lest they themselves also had been swallowed up too and the other Churches never an iota relieved by it but kept themselves for a reserve to assist the Church at their return Hoping that if they were blamed for their voluntary departing they shall not for their voluntary return to unexpose the Church to the least claw or shadow of Prelacy Reformat p. 21. Tâ— limit the conâ—iere of excommunication in matter of opinion to the common and uncontroverted principles and in The true copy of the Apology is thus Excommunication we iudge should be put in execution for no other kind of sins thâ—n may evidently bâ— presumed to be perpetrated against the parties known light as whâ—ther it be a siâ— in manners conversaâ—â—n such as is câ—mmitted agâ—nâ—t the light of nature or the common receâ—ved practises of Christianity professed in the Church of Christ Or if in opinion then such as are likewise contrary to the received principles of Christianity the power of godlines professed by the pâ—rty himself universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches and â—â—â—thâ—r sins to be the subâ—ect of that dreadfull sâ—ntence the matter of manners to the common and universall practises of Christianitie and in both to the parties known light is the dangerâ—us doctrine of the Arminians and Socinians openeth a wide doore and proclaimeth liberty to all other practises and errours which are not fundamentall 〈◊〉 uâ—iversally abhorred by all Christians and tendeth to the overthâ—â—w of the Reformed Religion which we wish all sound and sober spiâ—its tâ— abstain frâ—m lest it render them and their profession suspected of sâ—me suâ—â—â—â—â—panions 〈◊〉 and practises as in chariâ—ie we judge to be faâ— from their minds and 〈◊〉 Apâ—lâ—g If Pagans and Infidels do not practise and Papists Prelates Sâ—â—inians Aâ—minians Bâ—ownists Separatists c. do not hold some common truths with Christians as sence is common to men and be but condoll our condition that when we assert against mis-opinion of us that we give to Magistrates as much as the Presbyterians do we are compared to Pagans Infidels Prelates c. as bringing the way of Christ into hate with Princes when we speak for a conforming of Church government to the closest agreement with the Scriptures we are compared to Brownâ—sts Sâ—paratists Independents and Popular Anarchie When we judge that excommunication should not be but of persons presumed to sin against their own light c. we are compared to Sâ—cinians and Arminians if not semi-suspected to be such though not by any English heart If these be right forms of confutation the common people will begin to pride up themselves as to have said somewhat to the Question now in controversie whiles they assert instead of better arguments that a Bishop is a Presbytery contracted and a Presbytery is a Bishop diffused The former is as a president the other as a Commission exercised by many Doth not this very particular of excommunication testifie for us that the Congregational way doth leave more to the Magistrate then the Presbyterie do Many offences are to be punished bodily by the Civill Magistrate that are not to be censured with that spirituall highest censure of Excommunication Which being a shutting out of heaven and a giving up to Satan had need of better grounds then mens sinning of simplicitie or ignorance The very Prelates at least pretended wilfull obstinacy for their Excommunications And the great punishment of Excommunication inflicted for small faults will make the punishment at last small in the eyes of men But if it be restrained to great faults against the parties light men will think the punishment to be like the sin And yet no doare set open to other vices which Civil power may punish externally for the fact whiles Churches look upon faults spiritually in relation to the mind with what will they were committed Reformat pag. 23. Two maine objections are made against the principles and practise of the order and government of the Reformed Churches One is that there is no need of authoritative power of Presbyteries and Synods and that the exhortation of particular Churches one to another the Protestati noâ— one against another and the withdrawing of communion one from another may be a sufficient remedie and no lesse effectuall against all offences then Excommunication it self especially if the Magistrate shall vouchsafe his assistance