mans right and yet will not allow him the benefit of having the Will to plead on his own behalf And this is plainly the course of the Roman Church in the present case for the Rulers withhold the Scripture from the people that they may the more easily detain them in a blind obedience to those Doctrines and commands of their own which are contrary to it and which they will not have examined by it And you may well suspect the man has bad wares to put off who will expose them no where but in a dark shop It 's much to be feared that Guide means not well who would have my eyes put out or fast closed that I may follow him blindfold He that teaches falshood as well as he that does evil is afraid of the light that will discover his error But to conclude this whatever Papists may talk of the obscurity of Scripture the true reason why they keep it out of the peoples hands is because it is too plain I mean because it so plainly contradicts several Doctrines and practices that are now current in their Church So plainly does the second Commandment forbid all worship of Images that by their good will they would not have it come into the peoples sight And as plainly doth the holy Scripture in other places forbid the worship of Angels or Saints having Prayers in an unknown tongue the taking away the Cup from the Laity plainly it confutes their Doctrine of Transubstantiation whilst it calls the holy Elements bread after Consecration In these and several other instances doth Scripture so plainly make against them that no wonder if therefore they are so much against the Scripture as that they will not commonly permit the people to read it but keep back from them this key of knowledg L. This seems to be the true reason but so bad a one that they are ashamed to own it And now I return you unseigned thanks for the pains you have taken to confirm me in the truth and to shew me the vanity and weakness of those arguings wherewith they of the Church of Rome do endeavour to excuse and palliate their gross errors and to impose upon common people who are sometimes easily misled T. No great wonder if with their subtilties they impose upon such as cannot well distinguish betwixt specious pretences and solid reasonings And indeed they do in some measure deserve to be imposed upon who will so far trust to their own weak judgments as not to seek direction and assistance from those who are able to give it but do presently conclude that if they themselves cannot answer a cunning Priest no body esse can and thereupon without more ado become his easie proselytes especially when some worldly interest draws them to it which is an argument quickly discerned but not easily resisted Yet it 's strange to see how these same persons when they are gone off from our Church presently seem so humble and modest as to suspect their own judgments they commonly refuse to discourse with our Ministers pretending they are not fit to meddle with controversies nor hold disputes They now refer themselves wholly to the Church their own Sect the Romish Church that must be their Judge and their Guide They might before dispute and yield and be Judges for themselves when they left our Church but now forsooth they are got as the Priest tells them whose word they must take for it into an infallible Church whose Doctrines and commands must never be questioned or examined nor any thing heard that can be objected against them All must be swallow'd without chewing they must believe as the Church believes though what that is they do not well know This is the way that Romish Priests commonly take with them and a cunning way it is for securing of the Converts they have once made but so grosly partial that a man of ordinary discretion may readily discern it and no sincere lover of truth will be drawn to comply with it For how can any man answer it to God or his own conscience to depart from that Church wherein he has been baptized and educated without a fair hearing what can be said for it and when he is drawn away into another Church becomes so fixed and resolute that he 'l hear nothing that can be said against it But you I confess have acted at another rate and I cannot but commend your ingenuity and diligence herein which I pray God to succeed for your establishment in that holy Religion in which you have hitherto been instructed and from which I hope you 'l never be perverted For it is the very truth of God taught by his Son Jesus in his holy Gospel the only infallible rule of Faith and Manners L. I do stedfastly believe that it is so and by the grace of God will never depart from it T. Does your Author meddle with no other points of controversie betwixt us and the Church of Rome L. He mentions no more that I find looking upon these I suppose as most material but toward the end of this Chapter he heaps up many bitter invectives against our Ministers as if they spoke ill of the Romish Church out of meer malice against their consciences only to make Papists envied and hated and that they often cite the holy Scripture to no purpose or to an ill one and do also falsifie and cut off what is not to their liking yea and have put whole Books out of the number of Canonical Scriptures in fine that they do all as the toy takes them without thinking of any judgment or hell to come after T. This is very severe indeed but so grosly false and spiteful that it deserves no more notice or answer than the revilings of an angry scold Only to the last heavy charge of putting out whole Books of Holy Scripture I shall answer a few words and leave you to judge of the rest by what truth you shall find in this accusation Know then that as to the New Testament we receive for Canonical all the same Books which the Church of Rome it self does and all other Christian Churches in the world so far as ever I have heard And as to the Old Testament we receive all those Books which were acknowledged for Canonical by the Iewish Church who are very competent witnesses in this case or by the Christian Church for four hundred years after our Saviour as learned Writers of our Church have demonstrated and particularly Bishop Cozens before named in his History of the Canon of Scripture As to those Books which are called Apocryphal though we have them not in the same esteem with the Sacred Writings of the Old and New Testament yet we have a just value for them as the works of pious men and of great antiquity and our Church appoints Lessons out of them to be publickly read though not on the Lords days thereby recommending them to the people who have them in their
articles of Faith so that no Church on Earth has any power to coin and impose new ones not revealed in the Scripture which I say acquaints us with all things needful to Salvation And this I am sure is plainly enough taught in the Scripture it self 2 Tim. 3. 15 16 17. The Holy Scriptures they then enjoy'd viz. the Writings of the Old-Testament are said to be able to make him wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Iesus being profitabâ—e to all things necessary thereto as you may there find it fully exprest So Joh. 20. 31. These things are written that you might believe that Iesus is Christ the Son of God and that believing you might have life through his name So that if we believe in Jesus Christ according to all that is written of him in the Gospel this Faith if it produce Obedience will certainly procure everlasting Life And indeed our own reason may well tell us that since the very design of the Holy Scripture is to reveal to us the whole Will of God in order to our Eternal happiness surely there is revealed in them all that is necessary to this end Can we imagine that those Holy Men who committed to Writing the Doctrine of our Blessed Saviour with an account of his Life and Death his Resurrection and Ascension c. that they would omit any thing which was necessary for us to know and believe in order to our Salvation when they wrote these things purposely that we might be saved Especially if we consider that they have given us a very large account of things much more than was of absolute necessity And in such abundance would they leave out things more necessary than those they have Recorded The necessary Articles of Faith are comprized in a little room and have generally been thought to be comprehended in the Apostles Creed This was the judgement of the Primitive Fathers and many Learned men of the Church of Rome have acknowledged as much Now the Articles of this Creed I hope are all contained in the Holy Scripture being there both largely exprest and frequently inculcated So that the ground-work of the Reformation remains firm and unshaken viz. that the Holy Scriptures contain all things necessary to Salvation and therefore those new Articles which the Roman Church hath invented besides yea contrary to these Scriptures ought by no means to be admitted L. The Doctrine of our Church concerning the Sufficiency of Holy Scripture seems very plain and the inference you make from it clear and natural But the Sixth Argument will give you occasion to discourse further on this Subject For my Author says it will be for confirmation of his former Proposition and thus it runs We would fain have Luther Calvin and other Sectaries shew where they find written that the Gospel according to St. Matthew is Holy Scripture rather than the Gospel of Nicodemus which seeing they cannot do and yet they believe too the Gospel of St. Matthew as to Holy Scripture they must needs confess that they believe some things which are not contain'd in Scripture T. His former Argument truly stands in much need of confirmation but is like to receive little from this which he brings to strengthen and enforce it Since if we grant him the whole of it I cannot see that it will do any service to his cause or any prejudice to ours For who ever denied but that we believe some yea many things which are not contain'd in Holy Scripture We believe there is such a Country as France and such a City in it as Paris though there be nothing of them in Scripture Or which is nearer to our purpose we believe there was such a Man in the World as Iulius Casar and that the Book which goes under his name called Casars Commentaries was indeed written by him This we believe on account of the current Tradition and constant opinion of the World from his time down to this present Age there being no ground to doubt of the truth of it since all circumstances concurr to render it credible Even thus to come to the Case in hand we believe the Gospel according to St. Matthew and the other Sacred Books to be Written by those persons whose names they bear in the Title as Authors of them because this hath been the constant judgement of the whole Church of God from the very Age wherein these Books were Written to this present time And on the other hand we have good reason to reject a Book pretended to be written by Nicodemus because none such was admitted by the Primitive Church which must needs have known of it if any such Book there had been For this reason it was never own'd as Canonical by the Catholick Church in any Age since nor therefore do we now receive it as such Where now I beseech you lies the strength of this his mighty Argument L. I confess I am so far from discerning the strength of it that I do not well understand what he aims at by it T. I 'le tell you then in a few words He would by his way of arguing force us to acknowledge that Holy Scripture does not contain all things necessary to Salvation but that there are some Traditions of the Church to be received with equal reverence and esteem as particularly that such and such Books are Canonical Scripture others not and that it is on account of the authority of the Church of Rome that these Traditions are to be received and therefore lastly they hence infer that all other Traditions which their Church proposes to us are by the same reason to be received without doubting or disputing This is their common way of arguing and this Author here and in other places insinuates the same But now to shew further how little of force or solid reason there is in this smooth and subtle talk pray consider with me seriously two or three things which I shall suggest to you L. I promise you my most diligent attention T. 1 Then we must ever carefully distinguish betwixt the tradition or delivery of the holy Scripture it self from one generation to another and those other traditions whether Doctrines or customes beside the holy Scripture which yet are by the Roman Church made of equal authority with it the former we own but not the latter For we most readily grant that there hath been a tradition of the holy Scripture as that which was written by such and such men inspired by the Holy Ghost from one age to another ever since the time of its first writing and so hath it been brought down to us in these days And those Books which the Primitive Church embraced as thus Sacred and Canonical and so delivered them to succeeding ages these do we embrace with all reverence and submission as the rule both of faith and manners containing the whole will of God in order to our salvation But then for this very reason do we utterly deny
A DIALOGUE BETWIXT TWO PROTESTANTS In Answer to a Popish Catechism CALLED A Short Catechism against all Sectaries Plainly shewing That the Members of the Church of ENGLAND are no Sectaries but true Catholicks and that our Church is a sound part of Christ's Holy Catholick Church in whose Communion therefore the people of this Nation are most strictly bound in Conscience to remain In Two Parts If any man preach any other Gospel unto you than that ye have received let him be accursed Gal. 1. 9. LONDON Printed for Samuell Tidmarsh at the Kings-Head in Cornhill next House to the Royal Exchange 1685. THE PREFACE I Do not think there needs any excuse to be made for answering a Book written against our Religion If there were I could truly produce that common one of being put upon it by Friends For it 's now more than a year since some very worthy Friends to whom my Obligations are too great to dispute their Commands did put into my bands a little Popish Book called A Short Catechism against all Sectaries said to be Translated by C. M. desiring me to write a plain Answer thereto by way of Dialogue such as might be fitted for the capacities of common people In obedience to whom I presently betook my self to the work wherein I have proceeded very slowly being daily interrupted with other employments But now at length having finish'd it I present it to the World heartily wishing it may have a success answerable to the truth and goodness of the cause I maintain and to the design both of my self in Writing and Publishing it and of my Friends in putting me upon it I am not so vain as to pretend to have said any thing new on a Subject so very common and which for a long time hath exercised the Pens of very many persons of greatest Wil and Learning both in our own and other Nations Let it suffice what I hope without any vanity may be said that I think I have here delivered certain and solid Truth in plain and easie Words that even he that runs may read and understand the same I can also truly add that in answering this my Popish Author I have used all manner of honest and fair dealing as becomes a sincere Lover of Truth I have not indeed always followed him word for word especially not in his second and third Chapters in the former of which he endeavours to prove That Protestants have not the marks of a true Church in the latter That the Church of Rome hath them These two I have handled together and though I have left out much of his reviling Language which I thought needed no answer nor deserved any notice yet I do not know that I have past over any one Argument either there or in any other place Some perhaps may look on it as a fault that I have often followed him too punctually which has occasioned the frequent repetition of the same things but this may be useful to some Readers If I have not every where quoted his very words as for the most part I have done yet I am sure I have never willingly misrepresented his sense nor proposed his Arguments with disadvantage but rather have added what I thought might give strength thereto And as I know not that I have any where overlooked one Argument without answering it so neither have I returned any answer but what in my Conscience I thought to be just and true and with which my own mind is well satisfied I have not so confined my self to this Author but that I have also taken notice of some other points which he never mentions And though I may be far enough from having spoken to all that are in controversy betwixt us and the Church of Rome yet I think I have not wholly omitted those which are of greatest weight At least I am well assured that I have said enough to satisfy any considering impartial person that there is not the least reason why any Man should depart from the Communion of the Church of England and betake himself to that of Rome Since the Romish Church has no manner of Authority over us and is moreover guilty of retaining and imposing such gross and dangerous Errors and Corruptions as render her Communion utterly unlawful and unsafe even to those who have been born and bred in her bosom How unreasonable then is it for us to revolt to her And indeed my chief design in this undertaking is to confirm those of our own Church in strict Communion with it having little hope of bringing over many Proselytes from the Church of Rome Where I can expect but few Readers I must not look for many Converts Those Guides who are not willing to trust their People with the Holy Scriptures which yet they say are on their side will be less willing they should read the Books of those whom they account their Enemies and too oft they account us so as the Jews did our Saviour meerly for telling them the truth But if any of that Persuasion should be so ingenuous as to give this little Book a fair Reading and shall bring along with him a mind as free from passion and prejudice as the Author had in Writing it I dare say that it will either perswade him to become a Member of our most excellent Church or at least convince him that we who are already so have great reason not to depart from it Since this our departure beside all other faults involved in it would render us guilty of an apparent Schism And this guilt I reckon is most justly chargeable on the Papists amongst us And not on them only but also on those Protestant Dissenters as they are commonly called of what Denomination soever who separate from us into distinct Societies which they set up in opposition to our Church as by Law established For if in this Church all things needful to salvation are afforded and no sinful condition imposed then do they make a causeless sinful separation who withdraw from its Communion Neither can these our Dissenters justly plead the same Arguments for their Separation from us that our Church can for its withdrawing from the Church of Rome or rather for Reforming her self from the corruptions of that Church as I have briefly shewn toward the end of this Treatise They who would see this more fully demonstrated let them read a Discourse which purposely handles this Subject being one of the Cases lately Written as is said by some of the London Ministers And indeed I scarce know any Books that I would sooner recommend to the Common Reader for his direction in these matters than all those Discourses which treat of the several points in difference betwixt our Church and the Non-conformists and also of some of those betwixt us and the Papists And are generally Written with such clearness of judgment and with such calmness and good temper as may render them more acceptable and more useful through God's
common people did all understand So that by their arguing this was a defect of the Divine Wisdom to let the Scriptures come abroad at first in such a Tongue as the people were well acquainted with Yet more than this how frequently do we find in the Old Testament express commands given to the people to acquaint themselves with the Law and to instruct their children in it with all possible care and diligence as you may see Deut. 6. 6. and in many other places This was the commendation both of Timothy and his Parents that from a child he had known the holy Scriptures c. 2 Tim. 3. 15. Thus our Saviour bids the people Search the Scriptures Joh. 5. 39. This was the honour of the Bereans that they examined the Apostles Doctrine by the Scriptures Act. 17. 11. And this the Apostles still inculcated that the people should take heed to the Scriptures as to a light shining in a dark place Now all this is spoken of the Books of the Old Testament and surely there is every whit as much reason that we Christians should be as diligent in reading and studying the New Testament where we have the most heavenly Discourses of our Blessed Saviour with the History of his Life and Death and the Epistles written by his holy Apostles in all which we to this day are most nearly concerned even the meanest of the people as well as others and therefore they ought to have not only leave but all possible encouragement to be very conversant therein This we are sure was the judgment of the Christian Church of old for soon after the Apostles times these Holy Scriptures especially the Books of the New Testament were translated into the several Languages of those people who had embraced the Gospel by holy and learned men who were desirous to establish the Christian Religion amongst them And so we find in succeeding times the Christian Writers very earnestly recommending the Study of Scripture to the common people even to the women themselves and highly applauding those who did most exercise themselves herein The people then had Bibles in their hands and it was accounted an high crime to deliver them up to the Heathens that sought for them That Latin Translation of the Bible which is now in use amongst the Learned of the Church of Rome is a plain testimony against themselves for Latin was once the vulgar tongue of the people of Rome and the Countries about it and for their sakes the Bible was translated out of Hebrew and Greek into that language which was then in use And though some may mistake the sense of Scripture and as St. Peter speaks may wrest it to their own destruction yet is that no reason why it should be kept from common people nor does St. Peter say the least word to any such purpose he himself writing his Epistles to be read by them But rather he exhorts them to beware of being led away by the error of the wicked and to grow in grace and the knowledg of our Lord and Saviour Iesus Christ 2 Pet. 3. 17 18. And surely there is no better way to encrease in the knowledg of Christ than by studying his own holy Gospel where we have a full account of him and of all that he did and suffered for our sakes and wherein are contain'd all the Doctrines and precepts of the Christian Religion If some men abuse wine it does not therefore follow that even these men themselves must be always kept from it if they may be reduced to sobriety and moderation in the use of it much less ought wine to be therefore generally forbidden to others of whom it is not known that they do or will abuse it Neither yet does the comparison hold for wine may in it self be hurtful to some mens bodies so that water may be fitter for them but if any man receive hurt from the Scriptures the fault is not in them but in himself who falls into error through his own ignorance or inconsiderateness And the best way to prevent or cure his error is not to forbid him the use of holy Scripture but instruct him how to use it aright perswade him chiefly to mind that which is plain and easie and to frame his belief and practice accordingly by which means he shall by the grace of God be enabled to know and do all that is necessary to Salvation As for other matters that are more difficult and less needful let him pass over them or stay till he find an Interpreter He that is thus humble and modest will be far from abusing Scripture to his hurt and he that is not so may as well mistake and abuse those Doctrines which he meets with in Sermons and Catechisms and therefore by that reason should be kept from them too Nay if this reason hold good that Scripture must be withheld from the people because they are in danger of perverting them to ill purposes then they should rather be kept from the learned than the ignorant for we shall find that commonly men of learning and knowledg have been the Authors of those Heresies which have at any time disturbed the Church whilst men of meaner capacities but of more piety and humility have by the benefit of the Holy Scriptures been preserved in the truth But are they indeed so careful of the people that out of pure kindness to their souls they will not trust them with these holy Books for fear they should abuse them to their hurt How comes it to pass then that instead of these they provide other Books for them in which there is a thousand times more danger I mean Images and Pictures which they call Lay-mens Books from whence they are rather like to learn Superstition and Idolatry than any thing which is good Thus even in a literal sense whilst their people need bread they put them off with stocks and stones To say nothing of those other Books which have heretofore been very common among them viz. their lying Legends composed by lazy Monks full of such ridiculous stories and gross falsehoods that they are now ashamed to have them seen amongst Protestants L. He compares the Scriptures to a Fathers Testament but surely it 's an odd way to make the Son understand his Father's Will by wresting it out of his hands and putting him off with other writings instead of it T. An odd way it is indeed and gives just cause to suspect those of ill design who make use of it For when the Son meets with any obscure clause in his Father's Will though he go to consult the Lawyer about it yet he still keeps the Will in his own hand or a true Copy of it But if the Lawyer should by violence take it from him and let him know no more of it than he sees good the poor man might well think himself very much wronged Especially if the Lawyer should proceed by virtue of this Will to encroach upon the
that there are any other traditions of equal necessity to salvation which are not contain'd in these holy Scriptures 2 Note well that though the Church of God hath been a most faithful preserver of these holy Scriptures and hath carefully transmitted them from one generation to another yet it is not the Church which gives authority to the Scriptures as if she by any power in her could make that to be the word of God which is not so or unmake that which is indeed so No but the Church received for the word of God that which was delivered by holy men inspired by the Holy Ghost who gave full evidence of this their inspiration both by the nature of that Doctrine which they delivered and by the mighty miracles which God enabled them to work for the attesting the truth of this Doctrine both preached and written Now the Church which was in being in the first ages when these holy men committed their Doctrine to writing was a most competent witness of their writing those Books which go under their names and accordingly received them as the Sacred writings of such persons divinely inspired and so convey'd them to the next generation Thus the Iewish Church received the Books of Moses and the Prophets and thus the Primitive Christian Church received the writings of the Evangelists and the Apostles as also the Books of the Old Testament both upon the tradition of the Iewish Church and also upon the authority of our Blessed Saviour who own'd and approved of the same And thus the Books both of the Old Testament and the New have ever since by the good Providence of God been preserved in the Christian Church and handed down from one generation to another and so shall be we need not question to the end of the world And this same tradition of the Church whereby these holy Books are distinguished from all others and carefully delivered by the former age to the next following this we give all just regard to and do freely grant that this is of singular use for our information what Books belong to the Canon of Scripture what not and by this tradition we learn that this Book was written by this man under whose name it goes and another by that as for instance this by St. Matthew that by St. Mark c. But whilst the Church thus bears testimony to the Scripture to which testimony we give all due regard she does not I say give authority to it For there is a vast difference betwixt these two It 's the Kings hand and seal which gives authority to a writing containing suppose a grant of this or that priviledg but some credible persons his Secretaries or others who were witnesses to his signing or sealing of that writing may give testimony to it and so procure it to be own'd as authentick Thus the holy Scriptures which are recommended to us by the testimony of the Church derive their authority from God only who hath set to his seal that they are true as I have said both by the miracles that were wrought to confirm the Doctrine contained in them by the holiness of that Doctrine and many other circumstances relating thereto 3 Yet again take notice when I say we give such regard to the testimony of the Church I do not hereby mean the Roman Church as distinct from all others no by no means but the truly Catholick even the whole Christian Church whether of the East or West the North or South For this hath been the constant tradition of the whole Church in all ages ever since the Apostles that these Books were written by men divinely inspired and were given to be the rule of our faith and manners If some doubt was for a while made concerning a Book or two yet when these doubts were removed they were received into the Canon with the rest And this hath been the opinion not only of the Catholick Church but of most Hereticks and Schisinaticks also whose testimony here may be of great force whilst they could not but own the authority of Scripture even though they were confuted by it Yea to this I may add the acknowledgment of Heathens themselves or of Iews who lived in those times that the Books which go under the names of St. Matthew St. Paul c. were indeed written by them Thus we have a general current tradition not only of the Roman but of all other Churches in the world that such and such Books belong to the Canon of Scripture and this is commonly granted by Hereticks and Schismaticks themselves And even Heathens and Infidels who wrote against the Christian Religion have own'd these Books to be written by those persons whose names they bear who were eminent in that age for the propagating of our holy Religion So that we have a much more famous and uncontroulable tradition for it than that the Books which are said to be written by Tully Virgil c. are indeed their works which I think no body makes any doubt of Lastly from what hath been said you may infer that though we give just regard to this current tradition of the Universal Church by which these holy Books are convey'd to us as Canonical Scripture yet it does not in the least follow that we are therefore obliged to embrace all those Doctrines and practices of the Roman Church which she would impose upon us under the venerable name of Traditions of the Catholick Church whilst they are for the most part only the private opinions and usages of their own Church many of them of very late date and expresly contrary to the judgment and practice of the Christian Church in the first and purest ages of it as well as to the holy Scripture it self So that there is no more reason for our embracing these traditions of the Romish Church than there was for our Saviour and his Apostles to receive all the traditions of the Iewish Church by many of which they had made void the Commandments of God After all then Tradition rightly understood makes nothing against but apparently for us For if there be any other Tradition as universal as this of the Books of Holy Scripture our Church readily embraces it as before has been exprest And we will own that the summ of our Faith is brought down by Tradition viz. in the very form of baptizing in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost and more largely in the Apostles Creed wherein this form is explain'd We grant also that at first the Christian Faith was thus planted by the Preaching of the Gospel before the Books of the New Testament were written But now this our Faith is most plainly and fully contained in these Sacred Books whereas the additional Doctrines of the Romish Church are no more brought down by Universal Tradition than they are contain'd in the Holy Scripture which we assert to be the only sure and perfect rule of Faith and manners and upon all accounts much
there is little of true devotion in their worship so they have done much by other false Doctrines of theirs to destroy righteousness truth peace and charity from amongst men to pass by their Doctrines of Equivocation and mental reservation many of great note in their Church have taught that no faith is to be kept with Hereticks and it s well known they have sometimes put it in practice They exempt their Clergy from obedience to the Civil Magistrate and teach that it is in the power of the Pope to Excommunicate and Depose Heretical Princes and to absolve their subjects from Allegiance to them who after this by their principles may lawfully rise up and rebel against them Yea in some of their Councils they have decreed that the Rulers who will not root out Hereticks as they account all that are not of their Church shall be deprived of their Dominions And when they have had power in their hands they have exercised the most barbarous cruelty upon those they call Hereticks that ever was heard of in the world both in our own and other Nations especially where their bloody Inquisition is allow'd They burn their bodies and censure their souls to Hell and this is Popish charity This is the Church that boasts so much of her holiness and good works But should I go about to tell you what is the Divinity of many of their famous Casuists especially of the Jesuits as it 's laid open by some of their own Church and is to be seen in their Books and in the present Popes condemnation of some of their grossest Doctrines if this I say should be laid open you would be amazed to find how there is scarce any sin but with one distinction and evasion or other you might be allow'd to commit it scarce any duty but you might have a colour for the neglect of it Amazed one may well be to find men calling themselves Christians yea Doctors of the Church to allow and defend such practices as a sober heathen would abhor Yet this is the Church that is to be known by her Holiness above all other Churches L. Many of these things which you object against their Church I find my Author afterwards to vindicate but in the mean time he says we Protestants have no holiness in our Church that the first Reformers were very wicked men and so are their followers and a great many ill things he says of those he calls Sectaries as guilty of Rebellion Murders Adultery Sacriledg c. T. As to those who have been really guilty of these or the like crimes let them bear all the blame which they most justly deserve As to our own Church it s no way concerned in this charge no but let the shame light upon that Church which first taught and practised Treason and Rebellion Plots and Conspiracies murdering of Kings and massacring of their Subjects under pretence of Religion And if any that are called Protestants have been guilty of such Villanies they may in respect of these practices and the principles whence they flow justly be stiled the Jesuits Disciples whatever abhorrence they may pretend for other points of Popery L. But he says we take away all fear of God and obedience to his commands and all good Doctrine with more to that purpose T. A plain sign it is that they themselves have no fear of God before their eyes whilst they are guilty of such malicious slanders and reproaches Some good pretence they might have for these censures if we took away the Scriptures from the people wherein all good Doctrine and Gods holy commandments are contain'd and instead of these should put into their hands lying Legends devised by idle Monks full of feigned miracles and ridiculous stories which tend to nourish superstition and error But on the contrary it s well known that we not only allow to common people the use of holy Scripture but do most earnestly exhort them to be diligent and constant in the reading and meditation of it How then dare they say that we take away all good Doctrine And is not this the chief design of the Sermons so plentifully preached amongst us to explain these holy Scriptures to shew the people thence their duty both to God and man and to enforce the same upon them To this same end are also written many excellent Books by the Divines of our Church Yea some done by the more devout Writers of their Church which do chiefly aim at the promoting of good life have been translated into our language are commonly read and well esteemed among us such as Thomas à Kempis Drexelius Sales and others Nothing is more frequently prest upon us than that above all things we ought to live in imitation of our Blessed Saviour and his holy Apostles in the exercise of true devotion and piety to God of righteousness truth and mercy to one another and of purity and sobriety in our own persons which we look upon as the very summ of Religion and the great design of the Gospel according to Tit. 2. 11 12. With us is taught the great obligation that lies upon all men whether Clergy or Laity to be obedient to the King as supreme and to all that are in authority under him That we ought to love our neighbours as our selves keeping faith and truth with all men whether good or bad Orthodox or Heretical avoiding all equivocation and mental reservation With us is taught the excellency and necessity of charity both in doing good to all that need our assistance and in forgiving those who have done evil to us if ever we hope for mercy and forgiveness from God And as many publick good works have been done in this Kingdom since the Reformation as can be shewn within the same compass of years in times of Popery though upon better principles In our Church we are taught to flie from whoredom drunkenness and all riotous sensual courses and that not as slight and venial faults but as most dangerous and deadly vices And for the more effectual promoting of holiness our Religious worship is framed according to the rules of holy Scripture directed to God only in the name of his Son Jesus not to Angels or Saints Our prayers are in a known tongue that the people may be affected and edified and as the Apostle requires may be able on good grounds to say Amen We have the Holy Sacraments of Baptism and the Lords-Supper administred according to our Saviours own Institution and these still urged as most solemn obligations to all piety and holiness of living without which the outward performance will stand us in no stead We declare that no pardon for sin can be obtain'd but on condition of sincere repentance and that no repentance is sincere but what produces reformation and amendment of life if opportunity be afforded So that our Doctrine you see is the Doctrine of the Gospel and the precepts of it are daily inculcated on the people Our
infallible and the Mistress of all other Churches that there is a Purgatory with the rest of those Doctrines which they embrace and we reject Nay these opinions with their consequences rather tend to make men much worse than otherwise they would have been Some of them make them more loose and careless in the leading of their lives and some make them most cruel and uncharitable to such as differ from them yea render them many times disobedient to their rulers and furious disturbers of the peace by Plots and Treasons and Rebellions for the advancing of their cause True Christianity puts men upon no such courses but these are the natural effects of Popery as has often been verified by sad experience L. I understand you well and am fully perswaded that we in our Church do embrace all those Christian Doctrines that tend to the promoting of good life and do retain none that are an hindrance to it But what say you to their objections against Calvin and Luther who as my Author says were very wicked men and strange stories he tells of them out of Bolsec and other Writers of their Church T. To this I answer that it sufficiently appears how bad their cause is which must be maintain'd by the most odious lies and forgeries For there are no Books in the world less to be credited than those which their Monks and Priests have written in praise of those they have Canonized for Saints and in dispraise of such as they have damned for Hereticks making the former somewhat more than Angels and the latter worse than Devils But as to Calvin and Luther some of the more ingenuous even of their own Church have given a fairer character of them than their lying Bolsec and such Authors And had they but been as zealous for Popery as they were against it no doubt but they had past amongst them for great Saints with all their faults But in the mean time were they really as bad as they falsely accuse them to be yet are we little or nothing concerned herein since they were not the Reformers of our Church Nor yet if they had is it the goodness of this or that person which we are obliged to defend but the truth of our Doctrine and the lawfulness and necessity of our Reformation Thus they make a great out-cry against Henry the Eighth what a bad man he was and what ill designs he had in throwing off the Popes Supremacy which was the most he did toward the Reformation but let his designs be what they would the thing it self was justifiable and good VVhat if a bad Emperor upon carnal designs should have supprest Heathenism and promoted Christianity as Constantine himself was accused by some is this any dishonour to the Christian Religion But little cause have Papists of all men to talk of ill instruments whilst they may remember from what a Trayterous Murderer and Usurper the Pope first received the title of Universal Bishop for which he had been long quarrelling with the Bishop of Constantinople And however they slander Calvin and Luther we might with much more reason and truth object what kind of creatures multitudes of their Popes have been whom they own as Heads of their Church even such monsters of men for all manner of impiety filthiness and cruelty as the world hath scarce ever heard of the like And this we have from those of their own Church who have written their Lives and their greatest Champions such as Bellarmine and Baronius cannot deny it L. But it s further objected against Calvin and Luther and the first Reformers that they never wrought miracles to shew they had a commission from God T. Our first Reformers never pretended to bring in any new Religion only they cast out Popish Innovations which had corrupted and defaced it and for this they needed no extraordinary commission from heaven nor any miracles to warrant the same For they preached no other but the same old Religion which was taught by Christ and his Apostles and was abundantly confirmed by the miracles which they wrought long ago And with us the Reformation was begun and carried on in a just and regular manner by our Rulers in Church and State who had full authority to make the same even as the Kings and High-Priests of old had to reform any abuses and corruptions which at any time were crept into the Iewish Church And as these needed no new commission from Heaven no new miracles to authorize them to rectifie disorders and reform the Church according to the rules of Moses's Law no more did our Reformers need them for the removing of those errors and superstitions which had by degrees been brought in contrary to our Saviours Gospel L. I see no reason indeed why miracles should be expected from them who only cast out new inventions and keep fast to the old Christian Religion which hath already been confirmed by so many and great miracles But yet my Author says that in their Church they have had miracles wrought in all ages such as curing the blind and deaf raising the dead and casting out of Devils which he accounts to make mightily for the honour of their Saints and of the Church to which they belong T. In the Primitive times indeed such miracles were wrought for proving of the Christian Doctrine that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and all that he taught most certainly true and this Doctrine so confirmed is the Religion which we at this day do openly profess in our Church But then I utterly deny that ever such miracles were wrought to prove the truth of Popish Doctrins properly so called as of Transubstantiation Pargatory Invocation of Saints c. for these were never taught by Christ or his Apostles and therefore could not receive confirmation from the miracles of their working As to any that are pretended to be done in the Church of Rome for the attesting of these they are meer cheats and forgeries or lying wonders agreeable to the nature of those false Doctrines which they are designed to confirm And though your Author talks of healing the sick raising the dead c. I can hear of no such thing done by any of them amongst us whatever they may pretend to in Popish Countries where it s an easie matter for cunning Priests to impose upon credulous people But were indeed any such miracles wrought for the proof of Popish Doctrines one would think they should be done amongst those they call Hereticks who stand in need of such arguments for their conviction rather than amongst their own people who need them not Great Stories they often tell of their casting out of Devils and for this knack are their Priests mightily magnified by their deluded followers and prefer'd before the Ministers of our Church who pretend to no such matter But that this is a gross cheat seems plain enough from hence that what their Priests pretend to in this kind for all that ever I could
hear is still done in some dark corner amongst those of their own party not daring to come into the open light and submit their proceedings herein to the careful examination of skilful and impartial persons Sometimes perhaps they perswade melancholy people that they were possest and they have cured them when they either leave them little better than they found them or else may work a cure by Physick proper for that purpose Sometimes its notorious they have train'd up Cheats for this very purpose A famous instance there was of this some years ago amongst our selves viz. the Boy of Bilson near Wolverhampton in Staffordshire said to be dispossest by some Catholick Gentlemen as they stiled themselves but to the grief and shame of the Authors the whole Imposture was discovered and publish'd to the world by Dr. Morton then Bishop of Lichfield and Coventry L. If they indeed had this miraculous power of casting out Devils which they make such boasts of I wonder they do not shew the same power in working other miracles as well as this T. 'T is very true But this they may chuse to deal in because the Imposture is not so easily found out For here they commonly have to do with poor melancholy people and with young women especially who are sometimes afflicted with strange distempers which both themselves and their friends may ignorantly fancy to be a possession of the Devil and so are lyable to be imposed upon either by a subtile or by a silly Priest who may perhaps be deceived as well as his Patients and if they happen to recover may think he has done great feats by the mighty pains he has taken And truly the method which they use in these their Exorcisms or casting out of Devils as it s described in their own Books is nothing like that of our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles who by the speaking of a few words did presently cast them forth with authority whereas Popish Priests make a long work and keep a great deal of stir about it using such ceremonies and charms such strange ways of proceeding as makes it look like some unlawful conjuring or at best the whole appears very odd and ridiculous they having neither any command or example in the holy Scripture for the warrant of such practices on this occasion And one remarkable difference there is which is worth our notice that in the Primitive times those out of whom the Devils were cast generally were Heathens or Infidels who hereupon commonly became Converts to Christianity whereas now adays those who are said to be dispossest by their Priests are people of their own party who may easily be practised upon or induced to believe whatever their Ghostly Father tells them But I wonder when we hear of a Protestant being possest with Devils and dispossest by a Popish Priest except when there has been much juggling with a new Convert L. I confess I never heard of any If you please we will now proceed to the next mark of a true Church T. Yes presently we will but before I leave this subject of the Holiness of the Church I would desire you to take notice that every good Christian who is no Papist hath in and from himself as full evidence of the falshood of Popery as he has of his own sincerity and true piety for they declare that no man has any true faith or holiness that is not of their Church and on this account the current Doctrine amongst them is That no man out of it can be saved But now if you upon a faithful examination of your own heart and life do find that you do by Gods grace most stedfastly believe the Gospel of our Lord Jesus and do live in sincere obedience to the precepts of it according to the best of your understanding you have then at hand a most plain and undeniable demonstration even from this knowledg of your self that their Doctrine is most false whilst they confine both holiness and salvation to their own party since you who are not of it do believe and obey the Gospel and our blessed Saviour hath promised pardon and salvation to all that do so without requiring them moreover to believe the Pope to be his Vicar and to submit to all his Doctrines and Decrees Hence then I say its very evident to every honest Christian though no Papist that he may be holy and so may be saved without being of the Romish Church and consequently this is not that Catholick Church out of which no salvation is to be had L. This is indeed a plain argument which every good man may fetch from the knowledg of his own faith and godliness whilst I know and feel that I believe in my Saviour and truly love and serve him certainly I may upon good grounds hope for that happiness which he hath promised to all that are so qualified And whilst I thus know my own sincerity I shall not much be concern'd though a thousand Popish Priests should tell me that I have neither faith nor holiness nor can possibly be saved because I am not their follower for sure the testimony of a mans own conscience is of much more value than all their censures and Christs promises are worthy of more regard I hope than the Popes threatnings T. I think they are It may also be worth our notice to consider what a great dishonour is cast upon their proselytes by this Doctrine of theirs for if there be no true faith or holiness out of the Romish Church then these their Converts must confess that they had neither before they turned Papists but were meer Infidels and profane ungodly persons L. This seems evidently to follow upon their principles and I fear it 's often too true For though I will not take upon me to censure those whom I know not yet I must confess so far as I have observed in the place where I live most of those who have been perverted by them were persons of very ill lives before T. Yea and more than this so they commonly remain after For as we shall rarely find any persons of much sobriety and seriousness revolt to them from our Church so never did I for my own part know one that became a better man and stricter liver by his turning Papist For whatever they talk of holiness their chief business like the Pharisees of old is to make proselytes to their own party and then whether after that they grow better or worse as to their Morals is a matter they seem not much concern'd about Get them but once into the bosom of the Church and their business is done As for a poor Protestant let him be never so humble and holy never so obedient to his Rulers and charitable to his brethren never so desirous to know the whole will of God and to do it yet there is no help for him no way but to Hell he must go because forsooth he is an Heretick out of the
their not discerning the Lords body vers 29. And to receive these Holy Elements without reverence thankfulness and true devotion was to be guilty of dishonouring the Body and Blood of Christ which were here represented and exhibited to Believers But all this while we have no reason hence to fancy that the natural substance of Christ's Body and Blood are present in the Sacrament Had the Apostle thought of any such thing surely he would have exprest himself in another manner and have said somewhat to explain so Mysterious a Doctrine And had he and his Brethren taught the same as the Church of Rome now does surely the unbelieving Iews or Gentiles would have poured forth their Objections against it whereas we hear not a word of that nature neither in the Apostles Days or the next Ages after In all the Apologies that the first Christian Writers set forth in defence of our Religion we find nothing said in vindication of any such Opinion as this whilst they give large Answers to many other Objections for which there was nothing like so good a pretence Nor do we read of any controversy amongst Christians themselves about this matter for many Ages whereas in latter times since this Opinion was first broached there have been many Volumes written for and against it L. But they pretend that this was the Ancient Opinion of the Fathers and first Christians T. Pretend it they do but as in other points of Controversy betwixt them and us so here it is a very vain and false pretence For we read nothing of it in the old Creeds or the Canons of General Councils or in the genuine works of any Father for many hundred years after our Saviour L. Yet they alledge that the Fathers commonly stile the Holy Elements the Body and Blood of Christ and will frequently quote places to that purpose T. No doubt but they may easily do that though without any advantage to their Cause since its plain enough in what sense those expressions are to be understood from other places of the same Fathers For they themselves do sometimes tell us that Christ's Words of eating his Flesh and drinking his Blood are to be taken Spiritually that in the Communion there is a commemoration of his Death and a representation of his Body and Blood yea sometimes they expresly call the Bread and Wine the Figures thereof Now these and such like sayings cannot possibly be reconciled with the Popish opinion of Transubstantiation Therefore when they speak of Christ's Body and Blood in the Sacrament we may most reasonably understand them in the very same sense that I have told you our Church frequently uses the like expressions So do our Writers very commonly in their Books of devotion and in practical discourses on the Communion speak at the same rate whilst they intend nothing more but that these Holy Elements are made Christ's Body and Blood Mystically and Spiritually But how far this opinion of Transubstantiation is from being an Ancient Doctrine of the Christian Church hath been made sufficiently evident amongst many others by the Learned Bishop Cozens who in his History of it gives us an account about what time it was first publickly taught what opposition was then made to it by sundry Learned men of that Age and how long it was before it could be established by any Council even amongst Papists themselves or could obtain to be the general avowed Doctrine of their Church Nay to this very day their chief Writers are strangely divided in the accounts they give of it setting their Wits upon the rack to explain and defend it some this way and some that having so very little help from Holy Scripture in the Case as some of them are so ingenuous as to acknowledg L. Methinks its strange that they should with so much eagerness maintain and with so much violence impose a Doctrine which to me seems impossible to be understood or firmly believed T. Strange it is and very unreasonable but yet some account may be given of it for beside that natural pride which inclines men to defend the opinion which they have once espoused especially a Church which boasts of Infallibility besides this I say we may consider how mightily the admitting of this opinion makes for the Honour of the Priest who can thus with four words speaking work one of the most wonderful Miracles that ever was known in the World indeed such a one as can neither be seen felt nor understood But the people who can be perswaded to believe it must needs have a mighty veneration for the Priest that works it and be almost ready to make a god of him who can so easily make a god for them by turning the Bread into the very person of our Saviour his Divinity and Humanity whom therefore they worship and adore as God though after that they eat him L. This may seem indeed to make for the Honour of the Priest that he can work such wonders but surely it makes little for the honour either of Priest or people to be guilty of such false and absurd opinions and of such corrupt practices which are the natural consequence of them For are they not guilty of Idolatry in Worshipping the Bread as God though I know they say there is no Bread there after Consecration pray let me know your judgement because I find my Author endeavouring to vindicate their Church from this heavy censure T. I do not see how they can possibly excuse themselves from this charge if the Bread still remains Bread in its natural substance as we may most certainly conclude it does from what hath been alledged both from Scripture Reason and our Senses Wherefore whilst they worship that for God which is not God giving to the creature what is due alone to the Creator they may justly be reckoned guilty of Idolatry L. But will it not serve to excuse them that they worship that which they take to be God and therefore do design and direct their Worship to God and not to the Bread which they believe not to be there after Consecration though they see it before them T. What allowances it may please our good God to make for the ignorance and mistakes of honest well-meaning men I still say it doth not beseem us to determine But as to the thing it self for my own part I cannot see how this pretence will any more excuse a Papist from Idolatry than it would excuse an Heathen for his Worship of the Sun that he did verily believe the Sun to be God or that God did in some extraordinary manner dwell in the Sun the substance of it being turned into God whilst only the accidents of Light and Heat and the like do still remain Nay one would think the Heathen in some respect more excusable of the two since the Sun looks much liker a God than does a Wafer or bit of Bread But ' there is no great need of disputing against them in this
what 's done here below What haste did St. Peter make to rectify Cornelius's mistake when he fell down at his feet He presently bade him stand up telling him that he himself was a Man So St. Paul and St. Barnabas when the people took them for gods and would have worshipped them accordingly they rent their Clothes for indignation and utterly forbad them calling out to them to worship the true and living God as the Angel also did to St. Iohn saying to him I am thy fellow servant worship God Rev. 22. 8 9. And doubtless they are still as zealously concerned for the honour of God as ever they were and can take no pleasure in having his Prerogative any way encroacht upon for their sakes Nor therefore can they be displeased with us for not offering up our prayers or praises to them out of a just and pious fear of robbing God and Christ of their due by giving their Glory to another Displeased I say they cannot be whilst we do herein follow their directions and imitate their example in worshipping God alone through Christ the Mediator For this was their practice when on Earth and this is still their employment in Heaven and this we find required in almost a Thousand places in those Holy Books which the Spirit of God enabled them to write for the guidance of his Church in all following Ages There we find our Blessed Saviour himself teaching us to pray to Our Father which is in Heaven but not a syllable of making any Prayers to his Mother And would he omit any thing that was needful So the Apostles direct us to pray to God continually and in every thing to give him thanks doing all in the name of Jesus Christ but not one word said of praying to Angel or Saint upon any account whatever Nor do they that I remember in all their Writings make the least mention of the Blessed Virgin Mary after our Saviours Ascension except in the first of the Acts where it 's only said that she was together with the rest of the Disciples Not one short prayer do we find any where put up to her no injunction given to any Christian Church in the Epistles sent to them concerning their worship and adoration of her no nor in any Christian Writer for some ages after Whereas we now find the Popish Books of devotion full of such nauseous stuff Yet these are the men who cry up Antiquity and pretend to keep so close to Apostolical tradition and tell us that their Church holds nothing but what this age took from the last and that from the other before it till at length you come to the Apostles themselves but the present instance with many others of like nature sufficiently shews the vanity and falshood of this pretence L. To my apprehension it plainly does and I am apt to think another instance to that purpose may be given in what my Author next mentions viz. concerning Images c. CHAP. XII Of the Worship of Images T. PRAY what says he concerning Images L. He says that the Images and Reliques of Saints are honourable in regard of the Saints to whom they have relation and in regard of God himself since he makes use of them for instruments of his miracles And he brings in his Scholar telling how it vext him to the heart to hear any speak ill of the Images of Christ crucified T. Much rather may it grieve the heart of any good Christian to consider how by the abuse of these Images the great God and our Blessed Saviour are highly dishonoured Though your Author is so cunning as to say nothing of any pictures of God yet such there are among them and of the Sacred Trinity and this vindicated by some of their ablest Writers though most directly contrary to Gods express command by Moses and the Prophets as we find Deut. 4. 15 16. Isa. 40. 18. The reason of which commands does still remain as forcible as ever and will do so to the end of the world Since it then was and ever will be an infinite disparagement and lessening to the glory of Gods incomprehensible Majesty to go about to make any picture or resemblance of him insomuch that some of the wiser Heathens have declared against it As to the Images he mentions viz. of Saints together with their Reliques it 's a fine smooth word he uses when he says they are honourable if by this he meant no more than such an honour or respect as we use in civility to give to the picture of a friend or to somewhat he has left us in remembrance we should comply with him supposing these to be truly the Pictures and Reliques of those Saints whose names they bear yea whether true or false we should not much dispute it But it 's plain by the arguments they use and by the practice of their Church that it is a Religious and not meerly a civil honour which they plead for and give to Images even such an honour as God himself in his Holy Word hath expresly forbid L. It seems so indeed for though he makes use of the comparison which you have now mention'd yet his other arguments do aim at much more For he urges the example of Moses putting off his shoos when God appear'd to him because the ground was holy Exod. 3. And he quotes the words of the Psalmist as he renders them That they should worship the Ark which is called Gods footstool Psal. 99. 5. T. This plainly shews what that honour is which they would have done to Images and it shews also that their cause is very weak and bad which has no better arguments to support it What because Moses at Gods command put off his shoos in that place which was made holy for the time by Gods glorious appearance there must we therefore against Gods express command bow down to Images in which there is no holiness nor any evidence of the Divine presence Or are they of the old Heathenish opinion that by consecration of an Image there is some Divine virtue convey'd to it that the Deity takes up his residence there and does thence bestow favours upon his worshippers This one would think by their practice as I shall after shew As to the Psalmists words they command us not to worship the Ark as he falsly reads it but at or before the Ark Exalt the Lord our God and worship at his footstool that is worship God at or before the Ark where in a more peculiar manner he manifested himself And dare they ascribe this to their Images So v. 9. of that Psalm Worship at his holy hill and so are these places rendred by some Commentators of their own Church You see then what they plead for viz. a worship of the Images themselves with Religious worship for this it is that the arguments they make use of tend to if they are of any force But the practice of their Church is the best interpreter of their
hands and may read them as much as they please And especially those two Books Ecclesiasticus and that of Wisdom are well worthy to be read again and again as containing most excellent moral rules for the direction and guidance of our lives Consider then what an impudent thing it is for Papists to accuse our Church for putting out these Books of Apocrypha which yet are in so much use amongst us whilst they themselves endeavour in some sort to make the whole Bible Apocryphal I mean by their hiding it so much from the common people putting away not only some but even all the Books of Holy Writ very much from their sight And some of their Authors do speak so meanly and contemptibly of these holy Books which do so little service to their cause that they seem not to have so much respect for them as we have for the Apocrypha it self So that they of all people have least reason to condemn others for slighting or rejecting the holy Scriptures and our Church hath as little reason to be condemned as any other in the whole world As to his other spiteful suggestions I leave it to your self or any other impartial person to judge whether I have said any thing against the Doctrine of their Church without giving good reason for it And I can assure you I have not in this whole Discourse said one word against my conscience neither would I have you envy or hate any mans person be he Papist or what he will whilst you abstain from their errors For though I do not believe the Popish fiction of Purgatory yet I do firmly believe there is a future Judgment and an Hell prepared for the wicked and ungodly particularly for lyers and slanderers and for such as hate their neighbours upon any pretence whatever And is this all that your Author has to say L. He adds nothing more in this Chapter but advice to those who are seduced as he calls it that they should beg light from God and weigh what he has said and seek more instruction from good and learned Catholicks meaning I suppose Popish Priests chiefly T. There 's little doubt of it Now to prevent your being seduced by those who call themselves Catholicks but are not truly so I shall wish you to follow his advice so far as it 's good Humbly beg of God to enlighten your mind with the knowledg of the truth and be ever careful to do the will of God so far as you know it that so you may be the better qualified for the assistance and direction of his good Spirit which delights in men of pure hearts and humble minds Moreover I advise you to weigh impartially what is said on both sides and then be true to your own judgment and conscience in following that which has the plainest and fullest evidence of its truth I would not have you out of pride and vanity thrust your self upon disputes but when you cannot well avoid the discourses of their Priests or Gentlemen if you happen to be at any time somewhat puzled with their arguments do not hastily conclude them to be unanswerable but consult with your Minister or such as may be best able to inform and satisfie you And you may do well to furnish your self with some of those Books that are written by our Divines in defence of the Church of England against the Papists But above all Books let me earnestly request you with great diligence to study and search the holy Scriptures for in them you shall find the true way to eternal life Read there our Blessed Saviours own most Heavenly Discourses who spake as never man spake and particularly read often his most admirable Sermon in the Mount where you have the summ of Christian Religion Read also the several Epistles of the Apostles with the rest of those Scared Writings as you have opportunity and then honestly and impartially compare the Doctrines of our Church and those of the Church of Rome which differ from ours with what is taught in these same holy Books and what you shall find to be most plainly agreeable thereto that own and embrace and evermore firmly adhere to L. The Council you give me is most fair and reasonable which hitherto I have endeavoured to follow and by Gods grace will continue so to do For I can truly say it my chief design is to please God and save my soul And I cannot imagin any surer way to attain this than by studying well the Word of God wherein he hath revealed his will and the way to eternal salvation And certainly God is so good and gracious that he will not fail to direct and guide those into the right way who with sincere and honest minds do above all things desire and endeavour to know his will that they may do it Yea I look upon it as an instance of his kindness and good providence that I so happily met with you from whom I have received such full satisfaction And as for the subtle arguments of Papists I hope by that assistance which you have already given me and yet further will do I shall in a-good measure be able to answer them In the following Chapter my Author produces several of these subtilties which he calls pregnant arguments against Sectaries and these I shall desire you to consider and give an answer to T. I am very willing to do it but that I may not tire you we 'l refer this to our next meeting L. I am well content only one favour I shall request that in the mean time you would please at your leisure to send me in writing the summ of what you have now discoursed that I may have the benefit of perusing it and fixing it better in my mind T. I shall readily grant your request and praying God to lead you into and settle you in the truth shall for this time bid you farewell L. Farewell Good Sir The Second Part. CHAP. I. Containing an Answer to some Arguments against Protestants T. WELL met Friend L. I am heartily glad Sir to meet you again so soon and do return you many thanks both for the pains you took in your late Conference with me and that you was pleased as I desired to send me the summ of it in writing which I have read over again and again to my fuller satisfaction T. I shall reckon my self very well recompenced for what pains I have taken if you reap any advantage thereby L. That I have done very much I thank God For upon the review of my Popish Author so far as we have proceeded I meet not there with any objection against our Religion nor with any argument for Popery but what I can easily answer Nay more than this since I was with you I have read over the last Chapter of his Book the consiâ—eration of which you defer'd till this our second meeting and truly I have not been much gravel'd with any thing in it but can
their condition shall be let us leave to the just Judge of all men remembring the Apostles saying Not he who commendeth himself is approved but he whom the Lord commendeth How far the ill education and ignorance of any of them may serve to excuse or lessen their faults it becomes not us to determine But as to our selves we may safely assert that for us to go against the light of Gods Word and our own Consciences in professing their Errors and joyning in their corrupt Worship would be a piece of inexcusable and damnable wickedness Whereas on the other hand we may rest fully satisfied and assured that if we sincerely believe the Holy Gospel which is at this day purely and plainly taught in our Church and live in strict and stedfast obedience to the precepts of it which are dayly inculcated upon us we shall most certainly obtain that Eternal Salvation which in this Gospel is promised to all such obedient Believers Of this we are as sure as that God is true for Heaven and Earth shall sooner fail than one tittle of his Holy Word on which we depend L. Whilst we depend on this Word certainly we shall never be deceived or disappointed But methinks it 's very bold Language and little better than Blasphemy with which my Author concludes his Book when he says that his Roman Catholicks may at the hour of death with confidence use those words of an Ancient Writer O Lord if it be Error which we have believed we are deceived by thee for thou hast confirmed these things to us by such signs and prodigies as could not be done but by thee with more to that purpose T. This can only with truth be spoken concerning the Christian Religion to which God bare witness by mighty Signs and Wonders But to apply it to the false Doctrines of Popery is indeed no better than Blasphemy For neither our Saviour or his Apostles ever taught these Doctrines nor did God ever work a Miracle for the confirming of them L. Surely it would argue more modesty to suspect the weakness of their own judgment and better to examine their Cause rather than to charge God himself with deceiving them if they are deceived T. Very true but you know the Proverb None so bold as those that are blind otherwise certainly they have reason enough to suspect that Cause to be very weak which is supported by no better Arguments than these which your Author hath produced who yet no doubt hath given us the best he could devise of his own head or meet with in their Writers CHAP. V. Of the number of Sacraments with some other things briefly discust and the conclusion of the whole L. SIR I am now come to the end of my little Book and ought therefore to put an end to the trouble I have given you yet before we part will you please to satisfy me in one thing of which I find no mention in my Author T. I shall willingly when I hear what it is L. 'T is concerning the number of Sacraments for Papists charge it as a great defect upon our Church that we have but two whilst they say they have seven T. How little reason there is for this Charge will soon appear if you consider that as to four of these five which the Papists pretend to have more than we though we give them not the name of Sacraments yet we have the things themselves And as to the fifth there is not the least reason that we should receive or they retain it For your fuller satisfaction I shall name them to you and in a few words make good what I have said L. Pray will you please to do it and I shall trouble you with no more questions hereafter T. To the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lords Supper which both we and they receive they do further add Confirmation Holy Orders Marriage Penance and extreme Unction Now as to the name of Sacrament it 's a vain thing to dispute about words till we are agreed of the sense and meaning of them For if by Sacrament they mean any sacred rite or usage that may signify some grace or some good duty or by way of allusion may serve to some good purpose in Religion then instead of Seven they may perhaps reckon Seventeen Sacraments or many more And in this large and looser sense the Ancients commonly made use of the word giving the name of Sacrament to many things relating to Religion which are any way mystical or significant yea frequently they call our Religion it self a Sacrament or Mystery And if they of the Church of Rome will use the word in this large sense and so stile the several things now mentioned Sacraments let them enjoy their liberty I think it 's not worth contending about Only let them not say that we despise the things themselves because we think it not so fit to give them this name For by a Sacrament we understand as it 's exprest in our Church-Catechism an outward sign of an inward spiritual grace given unto us ordained by Christ as a means whereby we receive the same Grace and a pledge to assure us thereof Now in this sense we say that only Baptism and the Lords-Supper are properly to be called Sacraments being ordained by Christ's express command as a way and means for the bestowing of his Grace upon all that duly partake of them These are as it were the Seals of the Covenant of Grace as Divines use to stile them which all Christians if they have opportunity are obliged to make use of For hereby we do in a solemn manner profess our selves to be Christ's Disciples and engage our selves to walk in all holy obedience to his Laws and so make a Covenant with him and upon our sincerity herein we receive Grace from God to enable us for our duty and have an assurance of his favour and of all the blessings that flow from it in and through Jesus Christ. Thus hath our Lord plainly ordain'd that all who believe in him should be Baptized with Water in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost for the profession of our faith in him and for the receiving the remission of our Sins with spiritual Regeneration Thus did he institute the holy Communion commanding all Christians to celebrate the same in remembrance of him for a commemoration of his death till his second coming and hereby we partake of the Body and Blood of Christ for the refreshing and strengthning of our Souls Plainly then you see how these two Sacraments were ordained by Christ himself for the use of all Christians to be as it were the badges of their profession that hereby they might solemnly testify their consent to the Covenant of Grace and at the same time may receive the blessings of this Covenant But now this cannot be said of those other things which the Papists call Sacraments how useful soever any of them may be in other respects For though
Plenary Indulgence for themselves and may every day release a Soul out of Purgatory which surely they are very uncharitable if they will not do Nay which seems strangest of all even those in Purgatory may be admitted into this fraternity if any particular Friend of theirs on Earth shall desire it and will perform on their behalf what is required and so may they share in the merits of the whole Society Though by the way I wonder that any body should leave a particular Friend in Purgatory when he may so easily deliver him thence as you heard before But I 'le entertain you no longer with this fulsom ridiculous stuff Let us return to your Author and see what he says for this manner of Praying which a Parrot may go near to learn and use it with as much devotion as multitudes of them L. He says that the Ave-Mary is used Sixty three times because the Blessed Virgin Mary lived just so many years T. A wise Reason truly But I wonder where he had so good intelligence Some of her Worshippers it 's like have heard it from her own mouth For heretofore nothing more common than for her to appear to them and talk familiarly with them if we may believe their own Legends which I confess is somewhat hard to do Yet I grant there is as much certainty in the story of her Age as strength in the Argument taken from it that is just none at all Why do they not by this Reason say the Lords-Prayer Thirty three times because our Saviour lived so many years And it might also be asked why but one Lords-Prayer for nine Ave-Maries But waving these things let us hear his pretence for this odd way of Praying by running over the same words so many times together as if they would make up with the number what they want in weight and devotion and then telling them by their Beads as if they were afraid of being someway cheated if they did not keep so exact a reckoning Certainly we have neither precept nor example in Scripture to recommend such a way of worship L. All that he says is that David said his Prayers Seven times a day and our Saviour in the Garden repeated three times the same Prayer He demands therefore whether it be ill to say ones Prayers by number when he has reason so to do T. No surely But when a Man has no reason so to do it 's very vain and absurd And by all that he alledges it seems they have no reason else sure he would have given some For I beseech you where 's the consequence that because David prayed Seven times in a day that is very often therefore it 's a good thing to repeat one and the same Prayer Seventy times seven in a day or at least as often as we well can Or when our Saviour in his Agony doth with great servour and affection offer up his Petition to his Father thrice in the same words which were suitable to his present state is this any thing like the Papists way of running over an Ave-Mary Ten Twenty Thirty times together with a Pater-noster now and then intermixed for variety sake and this very oft in the midst of company without the least shew of devotion and as I take it in the Latine Tongue which few of them understand And which is prettiest of all when they are busie themselves though it be but at sports and pastimes they may then get some idle body patter over these their Prayers for them And I have heard it often reported by those who have conversed much with them that sometimes two of these devout people will play a game at Cards which shall say Prayers for the other at such a time So that it seems they take them for a kind of penance being glad when they are over as a School-boy when he has done his Task And is this like the Devotion of the Holy Psalmist who prayed to God and praised him with all his Heart and Soul and sang praises with understanding and with great affection and delight Or much less is this like to that of our Blessed Saviour who in the days of his flesh offered up Prayers and Supplications with strong cries and tears as we have it Heb. 5. 7. He continued indeed sometimes whole nights in Prayer and his holy Apostles were very constant and frequent in this duty and have enjoyned us to pray continually and in every thing to give thanks But do you find them any where directing us to say over the same words so often in an hour or a day and to make use of a sett of Beads to keep true reckoning Is this a Worshipping of God in Spirit and in Truth Is this like the fervent Prayer of the Righteous which St. Iames tells us is so effectual Is this like the Intercession of Abraham or Moses the Wrestlings of Iacob the earnest Prayer of Elias and other holy men recorded in Scripture Nay so far is it from being agreeable to such examples that it seems plainly contrary to our Saviours command Not to use vain repetitions in praying as if we thought to be heard for our much speaking Matt. 6. 7. L. So it seems truly and nothing can be more weak and impertinent than what my Author talks of saying Five Pater-nosters in honour of our Saviours Five wounds he means I suppose those in his hands and feet and that on his side But what he means by our saying the Lords-Prayer in honour to those wounds I cannot well tell T. Nor can I resolve you He might as well talk of saying it Twelve times in honour of the Twelve Apostles and then Seventy times for the Seventy Disciples and after that as oft as you please in honour of what you have a mind to For they forsooth have a certain peculiar manner of offering up their Prayers to God in honour to other persons and things which I confess I am utterly ignorant of nor do I think they themselves can give a rational account of it Of such blind devotions as these well may Ignorance be accounted the Mother L. But my Author is by no means pleased that this way of praying by Beads should be thought fit only for ideots that cannot read For he says that Kings and their Courts the Pope and his Cardinals make use of Beads who can read better than Sectaries T. There may be some question of that for all his confidence since it 's commonly said that the present Pope though much commended for some other good qualities can scarce read their Latine Service But let them be able to read never so well that will hardly prove all good which they do And if we speak of examples I must confess I had much rather follow our Saviour and his Apostles than the Pope and his Cardinals L. And so had I too But he says they have Books of Devotion as well as Beads that both are good and variety delighteth T. They had
need truly to have some variety to refresh them For sure they can neither have much delight nor much profit from a tedious repetition of the same words over and over at the same time especially whilst some of them understand not what they say and do also say some such things as would not much help their Devotion though they were understood L. He says there can be no better Prayers than the Pater-noster the Ave and the Creed T. As to the Ave and the Creed they are no Prayers at all the former being the Angels Salutation to the Blessed Virgin Luke 1. 28. and it is an absurd piece of superstition to turn it into a Prayer such as never any Christian was guilty of for many hundred years after that Salutation was first uttered The Creed contains a confession of our Faith and though the frequent repetition of it with serious reflections upon it may be of great use viz for the engaging of us to live according to our profession yet is it by no means a Prayer nor any thing like one The Pater-noster or the Lords-Prayer is indeed a most admirable form of Prayer which may not only serve as a pattern to direct us how to pray but is also most proper and fit to be frequently used as a Prayer and may very well be joyn'd with any other Prayers which we make to Almighty God But yet we must not think there is any devotion exprest or any advantage got by repeating it over so many times in an hour or a day as if there were some secret virtue and force in the bare rehearsal of the words whilst we little or nothing attend to the sense of them which is fitter for Mag-pies and Parrots than for reasonable creature from whom God expects a reasonable Service wherein their Hearts and Souls are to be employed as well as their Tongues But let us proceed CHAP. XIV Of Distinction of Meats L. MY Author next pleads for that distinction of Meats which is used in their Church there being some Meats which he says they forbid not at all times as those in 1 Tim. 4. 3. but for certain days to chastise the flesh and render it obedient to the spirit And so the Apostles themselves he adds did for some time forbid the eating of blood and strangled Beasts T. This prohibition of the Apostles makes nothing for his purpose since they are generally supposed to forbid the eating of blood and things strangled to avoid that offence which it would have given to the Iews which was a sufficient reason whilst it lasted But now in the Church of Rome they do without any reason at all that I can tell of severely forbid some sorts of Meat in Lent and at some other times when yet they allow other Meats every whit as pleasant as costly and luxurious And whether this be that which is condemned by the Apostle in that place to Timothy or not yet it is a very unreasonable imposition and tends to ensnare mens Consciences and make them fancy there is some Religion in using this sort of food rather than that Yet mistake me not what really tends to piety and mortification we do not in the least condemn no we commend and require it But the distinction of Meats made in the Church of Rome seems not to have any such tendency For with them a Man that shall eat plenty of Salmon Sturgeon or other such delicious Fish and drink rich Wines breaks not his Lent though it 's like the stricter sort take not this liberty but if he chance to eat a little of any course sort of Flesh or but the Broth it 's boil'd in or any sort of Milk-meats he is a transgressor As if there were not a flesh of Fish as well as of Birds and Beasts or as if there were any virtue in abstaining from one sort rather than another When we keep a true Fast we are that while to abstain from all sorts of Meat if we are able In a time of abstinence it beseems us to eat more sparingly and to use such a sort of diet as is most cheap and plain and tends least to please the Palate or pamper the Flesh that so we may be in a better temper for Religious Duties and may have more time for our Devotion more Money for the Poor and may both humble our Souls and afflict and tame our Bodies and govern our Appetites For all this there is good reason such fasting and abstinence administers to Religion But then whether in your times of abstinence you eat a little Flesh or a little Fish whether with your Fish you eat Butter or Oil whether you drink Milk or Small-Beer and the like seems not of the least consequence on any Religious account You are neither better nor worse for one or the other Here you may well say Meat commends us not to God That which enters into the mouth defiles not the man L. But to this he replies that the forbidden fruit which our first Parents tasted though not evil in it self yet the eating of it was displeasing to God T. And good reason since God himself had given an express command to the contrary L. And he urges that so God hath commanded us to obey our Superiors and therefore to eat what they forbid is evil as it is for Children to taste Sugar or Honey contrary to their Parents commands this he says is the wicked will which coming from the heart defiles the Man T. But all this does not in the least concern us since thanks be to God our Church lays no such burdensome and unprofitable commands upon us however the Pope and his Clergy like the Pharisees of old may load the poor people that are under their yoke Neither yet does any thing he alledges vindicate their Church in making such idle and useless Laws as these which have no manner of tendency to Religion or the good of Souls For what is it to my Souls health I beseech you whether I eat a piece of Salmon or the Leg of a Chicken Whether I take Oil or Butter for my Sawce Of what moment is this any more than whether I drink White-wine or Claret Beer or Ale In these things every Man is concerned chiefly to look to his own health and Masters of Families may take order for those under their charge and Children ought in such things to be ruled by their Parents since it properly belongs to Parents herein to give orders Magistrates also upon a Civil account may enact such Laws hereabouts as make for the publick good But for the Church or any Churchmen to make Laws about these matters is to arrogate to themselves a power which it does not appear that ever Christ gave them for it no way tends to edification but rather to entangle and perplex mens Consciences and to beget fond conceits that one sort of Meat is more holy than another which is a meer piece of Judaism and contrary to the