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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A51177	The coppy of a letter sent from France by Mr. Walter Mountagu to his father the Lord Privie Seale, with his answere thereunto also a second answere to the same letter by the Faukland.	Montagu, Walter, 1603?-1677.; Falkland, Lucius Cary, Viscount, 1610?-1643.; Manchester, Henry Montagu, Earl of, 1563?-1642.	1641 (1641)	Wing M2472; ESTC R6266	23,462	40

providence and goodnesse which Saint Augustine affirmes for his opinion directly in his Booke de vtil cred. cap. 16. saying if divine providence does preside over our humane affairs it is not to be doubted but that there is some authority constituted by the same God upon which going as upon certain steps we are carried to God Nor can it bee said hee meant the Scripture onely by these steps since experience shewes us by the continuall altercation about the right sense of severall of the most important places of it that what is contained there cannot be a competent rule to mankind which consisteth more of simple then learned men and besides the Scripture must have supposed to have beene kept in some hands whose authority must beget our acceptance of them which being no other then the Church of all ages we have no more reason to beleeve that it hath preserved the Scripture free from all corruption then that it hath maintained it selfe in a continua●● 〈…〉 isibility which Saint Augustine concludeth to be a marke of the true Church in these words in his booke contra Cecill 104. The true Church hath this certain signe that it cannot bee hid therefore it must bee knowne to all Nations but that part of the Protestant Donatist is unknown to many therefore cannot bee the true No inference can be stronger then from hence that the concealment of a Church disproves the truth of it Lastly not to insist upon the allegation of the sense of all the Fathers of the Church in severall ages which seemed to mee most cleere that which in this cause weighed much with mee was the Confession and Testimony of the approved Doctors themselves of the Protestant Church as Hooker in his booke of Eccles. Pol. pag. 126. God always had and must have some visible Church upon earth And Doctor Field the first of Eccle. cap. 10. It cannot bee but those that are the true Church must be knowne by the Profession and further the same Doctor saies how should the Church bee in the World and no body professe openly the saving truth of God And Doctor White in his defence of the way cap. 4. pag. 790. The providence of God hath left monuments and stories for the confirmation of our Faith and I confesse truly that our Religion is false if a continuall descent of it cannot be demonstrated by these monuments downe from Christs time this appeareth unto mee a direct submission of themselves to produce those apparent testimonies of the publique profession of their faith as the Catholikes demand but this I could never read nor know of any that performed For D. White himself for want of proof of this is fain to say in another place in his way to the Church p. 520. The Doctors of our faith have had a cōtinual succession though not visible to the world so that he flies from his undertaking of a conspicuous demonstration of the monuments of his faith to an invisible subterfuge or a beleefe without appearance for hee saith in the same Book in an other place pag. 4. All the externall government of the Church may faile so as a locall and personall succession of Pastors may be interrupted and pag. 40● We doe not contest for an externall succession it suffiseth ●hat they succeed in the Doctrine of the Apostles and faithfull who in all ages did embrace the same truth so as here hee removeth absolutely all externall proofes of succession which before hee consented to be guided by I cannot say I have verbally cited these Authors because I have translated these places though the Originall be in English yet I am sure their sense is no way injured and I have chosen to alleadge Doctor Whites authority because he is an Orthodox professor of the Protestant Church the reflection of the state of this question wherein I found the Protestants defend themselves onely by flying out of sight by confessing a long invisibility in their Church in apparence of Pastors and Doctors left mee much loosened from the fastnesse of my professed Religion but had not yet transported me to the Catholike Church for I had an opinion that our Divines might yet fill up this vacuitie with some more substantiall matter then I could meet with so I came back into England with a purpose of seeking nothing so intentively as this satisfaction and to this purpose I did covertly under another mans name send this my scruple to one in whose learning sufficiencie I had much affiance in these termes Whether there was no visible succession to be proved in the Protestant Church since the Apostles time downe to Luther and what was to be answered to that objection Besides the confession of invisibilitie for so many ages to this I could get no other answer but that the point had been largely and learnedly handled by Doctor White and many others of our Church upon this I resolved to informe my selfe in some other points which seemed to mee unwarrantable and superstitious in the Ceremónies of the Church of Rome since I had such an inducement so little satisfaction in a point which seemed to mee so essentiall and in all these scruples I found mine owne mistake in the belief of the Tenets of the Roman Church gave me the onely occasion of scandall not the practice of their doctrine and to confirme mee in the satisfaction of all them I found the practice and authority of most of the ancient Fathers and in the Protestant Refutation of these Doctrines the Recusation of their Authorities as men that might erre so that the question seemed then to me whether I would rather hazard the erring with them then with the later Reformers which consequently might erre also in dissenting from them since then my resolution of reconciling my selfe to the Roman Church is not lyable to any suspition of too forward or precipitate resignation of my selfe my judgment may perchance be censured of seducement my affection cannot bee of corruption Upon these Reasons I did soone after my returne last into England reconcile my selfe to the Roman Catholike Church in the belief and convincement of it to be the true ancient and Apostolicall Church by her externall marks and her internall objects of faith and doctrine and in her I resolve to live and die as the best way to salvation when I was in England I did not studie dissimulation so dexterously as if my fortune had read it to me nor doe I now professe it so desperatly as if it were my fortunes Legacie for I doe not believe it so dangerous but it may recover for I know the Kings wisdome is rightly informed that the Catholike Faith doth not tend to the alienation of the subject it rather super-infuseth a reverence and obedience to Monarchie and strengtheneth the bands of our obedience to our naturall Prince and his grace and goodnesse shall never finde any other occasion of diversion of them from the naturall and usuall exercise of themselves upon

transmitted by the Iews who yet were so capable of erring that out of it they lookt for a temporall King when it spake of a spiritual me thinks the testimonie is greater of a church that contradicts the Scripture then which doth not since no mans witnessing is so soon to be taken as when against himselfe and so their testimony is greater of a Church that contradicts the Scripture by which themselves are condemn'd Besides the generall reverence which ever hath bin given to the Books the continuall use of them together with severall parties having alwayes their eyes upon each other ready and desirous to have somewhat to accuse in their Adversaries gives us greater certainty that these are the same writings then we have that any other ancient Book is any other ancient Authors and we need not to have any other unerring company preserv'd to make us surer of it yet the Church of Rome as infallible a Depositarie as she is hath suffer'd some varieties to creepe into the Copies in some lesse materiall things nay and some whole Books as they themselves say to be lost and if they say how then can that be the rule whereof part is lost I answer that wee are excus'd if we walk by all the rule that we have and this makes much against Traditions being the rule since the Church hath not lookt better to Gods unwritten word then to his written and if she pretend she hath let her tell us the cause why Antichrists comming was deferr'd which was a Tradition of St. Paul to the Thessalonians and which without impudence she cannot pretend not to have lost and if againe they say God hath preserv'd all necessary Traditions I reply so hath hee all necessary Scripture for by not being preserv'd it became to us not necessary since wee cannot be bound to beleeve and follow what we cannot finde But besides I beleeve that all which was ever necessary is contain'd in what remaines for Pappias sayes of S. Mark that he writ all that S. Peter preach'd as Iraeneus doth that Luke writ all that S. Paul preach'd nay Vincentius Lirinensis though hee would have the Scripture expounded by ancient Tradition yet confesseth that all is there that is necessary and yet then there was no more Scripture then we now have as indeed by such a Tradition as he speaks of no more can be prov'd then is plainly there and almost all Christians confent in and truly I wonder that they should bragge so much of that Author since both in this and other things he makes much against them especially in not sending men to the present Roman Church a much readier way if he had knowne it then such a long and doubtfull one as hee prescribes which indeed it is impossible that almost any question should be ended by Eleventhly He brings S. Austines authority to prove that the true Church must be alwayes visible but if he understood Church in Master Mountagu's sence I think he was deceiv'd Neither is this impudence for me to say since I have cause to think it but his particular opinion by his saying which Card. Perr quotes that before the Donatists the question of the Church had never beene exactly disputed of and by this being one of his maine grounds against them and yet claiming no Tradition but onely places of Scripture most of them allegoricall and if it were no more then I may better dissent from it then he from all the first Fathers for Dionisius Areopagita was not as yet hatcht in the point of the Chiliasts though some of them Pappias and Iraeneus claim'd a direct Tradition and Christs owne words Secondly as hee useth this kind of liberty so he professeth it in his 19 Epistle where he saith that to Canonicall Scriptures he had onely learnt to give that reverence as not to doubt of what they said because they said it and from all others hee expected proofe from Scriptures or reason Thirdly the Church of Rome condemnes severall opinions of him and therefore she ought not to finde fault with them who imitate her examples Twelfthly He adds two reasons more the consent of the Fathers of all ages and the confession of Protestants To the first I answer that I know not of any such and am the more unapt to beleeve it because M. Mountague vouchsafes not to insist upon it nor to quote any which I guesse he would have done but that hee misdoubted their strength Secondly suppose that all the Fathers which speak of this did say so yet if they say it as private Doctors and claime no Tradition for it I know not why they should weigh more then so many of the now-learned who having more help from Art and no fewer from Nature are not worse searchers into what is truth though lesse capable of being witnesses to what was tradition Thirdly they themselves often professe they expect not to be read as Judges but as to be judg'd by their and our rule the Canonicall Scriptures Fourthly Let him please to read about the imaculate conception Posa Salmeron Wadding and he will finde me as submissive to antiquity even whilest I reject it as those of his owne Party for they to preferre new opinions before old are faine to preferre new Doctors before old and to confesse the latter more perspicacious and to differ from those of former times with as little scruple as hee would from Calvin whom Maldonat on purpose to oppose confesseth he chuseth a new Interpretation before that of all the Ancients which no witnesse but my eyes could have made mee beleeve nay and produce other points wherein their Church hath decreed against the Fathers to perswade her to doe so againe although Campian with an eloquent brag would perswade us that they are all as much for him as Greg. the 13 who was then Pope To the second I answer that infallibility is not by us deni'd to the Church of Rome with an intention of allowing it to particular Protestants how wise and learned soever Thirteenthly Hee says next that hee after inform'd himself in other points which seem'd to him unwarrantable and superstitious and found onely his own mistakes gave him occasion of scandall to this I answer that I cannot well answer any thing unlesse he had specified the points but I can say that there are many as picturing God the Father which is generally thought lawfull and as generally practised their offerings to the Virgin Mary which onely differs frō the heresy of the Colliridians in that a candle is not a cake their praying to Saints and beleeving de fide that they heare us though no-way made certaine that they doe so and many more which without any mistake of his might have given him occasion to be still scandalized for whereas he saith that these points were grounded upon the authority of the ancient Fathers which was refused as insufficient by Protestants I answere that none of these I name have any ground

to say he understands them not and good Saint Austin finding that from controversies in Religion there came no other fruit but indeterminata luctatio said with sorrow Why do we strive about our Fathers Will Nos fuimus fratres and our Father is not dead intestate but hath left his Will and Testament in writing let it be followed and all controversies will soon be ended Flatter not your self Walter the Remonstrance you make shews that the resignation you made of your selfe to the church of Rome was precipitate then the resolution to live and die there desperate yet you give some hopes when you say nor do you now so desperatly professe as if it were your fortunes legacie for you do not believe it so dangerous but it may recover The Kings benignitie and goodnesse is always to interpret the best but know that his Majestie hath a better opinion of those who are bred such then of those who become such by relapse nor am I willing to apprehend any change of your dutie yet take this for a caveat that commonly all changes follow change of faith I never travelled of you till now and it is with a great deal of paine I thought you should have wept over me when Nature had called for her due but you have prevented me And yet my sonne you may yet returne to me but I shall never goe to you in this way nor had I ever gone so far into this question but to fetch you again my sonne otherwise a lost child Thus as your Letter began so do I end after much debate concerning a fit expression of my selfe whether was better by not writing to shew my dislike or by long writing to labour your recovery this last was most satisfactory to my conscience though the other more agreeable to nature displeased I have therefore resolved as you see to give you this answer and I pray God that he may blesse you and mee so in it that my pen may have the fruit my heart wishes Your Loving Father Manchester My Lord Faulklands Answer A Letter of Master Mountagu justifying his change of Religion being dispers'd in many copies I was desired to give my opinion of the Reasons and my reason if I misliked them having read and consider'd it I was brought to be perswaded First because having beene sometimes in some degrees mov'd with the same inducements I thought that what satisfied me might possibly have the same effect upon him Secondly because I being a Layman a youngman and an ignorant man I thought a little reason might in likelihood work more from my pen then more from theirs whose profession age and studies might make him suspect that it is they are too hard for him and not their cause for his Thirdly because I was very desirous to doe him service not onely as a man and a Christian but as one whom all that know him inwardly esteeme of great parts and I am desirous somewhat to make up my great want of them by my respects to those that have them and as an impartiall seeker of Truth which I trust he is and I professe my selfe to be and so much for the cause of this paper I come now to that which it opposeth First then whereas he defends his search I suppose hee is rather for that to receive prayse then to make apologies all men having cause to suspect that gold which were given with this condition that the Receiver should not try it by any touchstone Secondly Hee saith that there being two sorts of questions the one of right or doctrine the other of fact or story as whether the Protestants faith had a visible appearance before Luther hee resolved to begin his enquiry with the matter of fact as being sooner to be found because but one easier to be cōprehended to this I answer by saying that if they would not appeal from the right Tribunall or rather rule which is the Scripture those many might easier be ended then this one we building our faith onely upon plain places and all reasonable men being sufficient judges of what is plain but if they appeal to a consent of Fathers or Councels whereof many are lost many not lost not to bee gotten many uncertain whether Fathers or no Fathers and those which we have being too many for almost any industry to read over and absolutely for any memory to remember which yet is necessary because any one clause of any one Father destroys a consent and being besides liable to all the exceptions which can bee brought against the Scriptures being the rule as difficulty want of an infallible interpreter and such like and being denied to have any infallibilitie especially when they speak as witnesses which a consent of them never doth against us by one party which the Scripture is allow'd to have by both then I wonder not if he think such a way so uncertain and so long that he was willing to chuse any shorter cut rather then travell it Neither doe I believe this to be so short or so concluding as he imagines for if he consider the large extent of Christian Religion so that wee know little from any indifferent Relator of the opinions of the Abissines so great a part of Christendome if he consider the great industry of his church in extinguishing those whom they have call'd Heretikes and also their Books so that wee know scarce any thing of any of them but from themselves who are too partiall to make good Historians if hee consider how carefully they stop mens mouthes even those of their own with their Indices Expurgatorii it will then appeare to him both a long work to seek and a hard one to finde whether any thought like Luther in all ages and that hee concludes very rashly who resolves there was none because he cannot finde any since they might have bin visible in their time yet not so to us for men are not the less visible when they are so for not being after remembred as a man may be a Gentleman though he know not his pedidigree so that as I will not affirm that there were always such because I cannot prove it so neither ought they to make themselves sure there were none without they could prove that which is impossible and therefore no argument can be drawn from thence and if it could be proved that such a no-wayes erring church must at all times be I had rather believe that there were still such though wee know them not which may be true then that theirs is it which in my opinion cannot Thirdly He says hee could finde no one point of controverted doctrine whereupon all the rest depended but that this one question of fact was such as the decision of it determined all the rest To this I answer that the question of the infallibilitie of the Pope at least of those who adhere to him which they call the church is such a one as if determin'd must determine