things but in scoffing manner if you doe seriously hold them prooue them seriously and not with ridiculous authorities The 11. reason Triall of truth That it appertaineth to the Church to trie and to discerne Spirits as also to determine and to decide doubts we confesse M. D. Trie all things saith Paul 1 Thess 5. 1. Ioh. 4. and S. Iohn commandeth vs to prooue the Spirits But the question is whether you are the Church or no Quid ergo facturi sumus what shall we doe I answer with Augustine propounding this question cap. 2. de vnitat that we must seeke the Church of Christ in his word qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum who is truth best knoweth his bodie Where you say that we cannot otherwise but receiue the scriptures vpon the catholike Romane churches credit and also three Creedes and some articles of beleefe as the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne and many tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments I will answer these points seuerally And first I desire to know what reason you haue to make a particular church as the Romane church Catholike The Romane church if it were a true church is but a part of the catholike church It is Catholike saith Augustine because it is per totum through the whole world de vnit cap. 5. Cyril in his 18. chap. among many reasons of the name giueth this Quia per vniversum sit orbem terrarum diffusa because it is diffused thorough the whole world Is it all one to say I beleeue the Catholike Church and to say I beleeue the Romane church To leaue this matter and to come to your speech that it is not possible to know the Bible which is vsed amongst Christians to be the true word of God indeede but vpon the Romane churches credit First such idle questions the olde heretikes the Manichees demanded of S. Augustine to whome S. Augustine answered Lib. 32. cap 21. cont Faust Man Si quaeratis à nobis vnde nos sciamus Apostolorum esse istas literas breuiter vobis respondemus inde nos scire vnde vos scitis illas literas esse Manichaei If you demand of vs how we know that these be the Apostles writings we shape you this short answer as you know that your writings are of the heretike Manichee Secondly I would know how you can prooue any church to be the church but by the Scriptures if you cannot prooue the church but by the Scriptures then the Authoritie of the church dependeth vpon them and not è contra Thirdly we receiue not the Scriptures vpon the Romane churches credit for then we should haue receiued also the bookes which are Apocrypha as well as the true Canon of the bible for the Romane church doth receiue them Fourthly we receiue the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselues Many men by the heauenly maiestie of the Scriptures are mooued to receiue them before they know which is the true church Gonarus con Cost Iustin Martyr saith that Christs words haue in thâ—â— feare to perswade in dialogo cum Try Mantuan de pat l. 3. c. 2. saith thus Firmiter scripturas ideo credimus quòd diuinam inspirationem intra accipimus we steadfastly beleeue the scriptures because we haue receiued an inward inspiration from God He that will despise the Scriptures will despise the Church He that will not beleeue there is a God because the Scriptures teach it will not beleeue it because the Church teacheth the same The Scriptures were credited before the Romane church was ens or in rerum natura The Apostles beleeued the Gospel of our Sauiour Christ before he wrought any miracle because it was testified by the scriptures Ioh. 1.46 Adam and others beleeued without the church Our Sauiour Christ preached Repent and beleeue the Gospel which some did without the Church Eusebius in his third booke and 21. chap. writeth that the Gospels of Thomas and others were reiected because that phraseos character à consuetudine Apostolica variat ipsa sententia propositum eorum quae in illis adferuntur plurimum à veritate rectae doctrinae discrepant the style doth varie from the Apostolicall manner and the matter and the intent of those things which are alleadged in them doe much differ from the truth of right doctrine The consent of Scriptures the miracles and prophesies with many other arguments draw a man to credit the same yea the deadly hatred which the world beareth vnto them perswadeth not a little Sacris Scripturis saith Bellarmine nihil est notius Lib. 1. cap. 2. de vâ—â— Dâ—i nihil certius there is nothing more knowne and certaine then the Scriptures Read Bellarmine your selfe M. Doctor that he may satisfie you in this point But if we beleeue the Scriptures by the Church doth not the church teach vs to beleeue by the scriptures how can the church rightly perswade vs to beleeue but by preaching and producing of scriptures Ergo the scriptures are of much more force then the bare name of a church For propter quod vnumquodque tale est illud magis tale if the church induceth vs to beleeue then the scriptures doe much more because the church doth it by the scriptures The church is an excellent meanes ordained of God to bring men to beleefe neither doe we contemne the authoritie thereof The Samaritans beleeued by the testimonie of a woman Ioâ— 4. but afterward they beleeued because of Christ himselfe so the Church may bring one to beleeue but afterward to beleeue for the word it selfe The testimonie of Augustine is fraudulently alleadged by you his word is commoveret for he saith As there were many things which held him in the faith so if he were an infidel he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authoritie of the church with other things did mooue him ergo not onely the church and he speaketh if he were an infidell as the wordes going before doe plainly manifest Si invenies aliquem if thou shouldest finde any which yet doth not beleeue the Gospel what wouldest thou doe saying to thee I doe not beleeue then immediatly followeth your sentence I would not beleeue vnlesse c. Nicholaus Clenangis is worthie to be heard concerning this testimonie of Augustine Disp super Gâ—â— con Mirum sane prima specie satis videtur at the first fight it is maruell that he should preferre the authoritie of the church being a stranger in the earth before the authoritie of the Gospel seeing the Church may be deceiued in many things and the Gospel cannot Afterward he giueth the reason of Augustines speach because the Manichees did reiect Scriptures at their pleasures To stand yet somewhat longer in this testimonie Con. lib. 5 c. 1â— Augustine was mooued to beleeue by Ambrose is Ambrose his authoritie therefore equall to the scriptures God forbid whosoeuer listeth to read the 5. chap of the 6.
temple and a church as I haue prooued Thirdly he saith that by meanes of Images pictures crosses the most vnlearned amongst the people knowe more of the misteries of christian religion then some of our ministers know If this be so it is a horrible shame for ministers for this I know that some vnlerned people haue worshipped Images as gods but indeed what is this but to contemne gods wisome and ordinance who hath not ordained Images to teach the people but his word to instruct them Take heed M. Doctor of this horrible sinne to make your selues wiser then God Fourthly the Doctor saith that we haue noe more warrant for solemnizing of the sonday then we haue for S. Lawrence his day for other reason or warrant we haue none but the authoritie of the Roman church fye fye M. Doctor that you should thus bewray your ignorance Bellarmine in his third booke de cul Sanct. and 11. chap. prooueth the obseruation of the Lordes day by the scriptures if you can prooue the obseruation of S. Lawrance his day by the same warrant you may doe well to shewe vs some of your arguments Other things of lesse moment I let passe because I labour for breuitie The 21. reason The Protestants beginning and proceeding against their consciences This chapter hath many wordes to little purpose first Luther is charged to say that he could see into another mans heart or cōscience who will beleeue Luther should speake thus except he meant he could doe it by plaine words and manifest deeds this M. Doctor you confesse your selfe may be done I hope if Luther saie that he could see into another mans conscience he had no other meaning but by plaine words and manifest deeds Luther was not so sottish as you would beare men in hand to make himselfe a God But M. Doctor if your reason be good to prooue that some Protestants speake and write against their consciences because they suspect others to doe so for commonly a man thinketh others to be as himselfe is then you speake and write against your conscience because you are suspitious yea vpon ridiculous reasons and vntruths you charge men to write against their consciences This is your own reason and argument and therefore cannot be denied For proofe that you charge men to write against their cōsciences onely vpon ridiculous reasons let the reader iudge I will set down your arguments Luther confessed that he began against his conscience ergo he proceeded so M. Doctor to admit your antecedent who wil graunt your consequent for here you say that he proceeded so farre as he thought that by desperate necessitie he must go on and so compare him to Iulius Caesar The truth is he ended his life most heauenly as M. Doctor Whitakers sheweth out of Melancthon and Sleidon We will not credit your slaunderous writings of him but the writings of the forenamed men From Luther the Doctor commeth to Zwinglius who is said to haue denied secretly the reall presence for many yeres before he brake off frō the Roman Church but yet inwardly he dissembled his mind What then if Zwinglius did thus did he therefore proceed against his conscience because he remained sometime in the Romane church after he had seene the trueth of the Sacrament What honest man would shape such conclusions If this be to proceede against conscience Papists in England proceede against their consciences for they continue in our Church though they secretly dissemble their opinions many examples hereof might be giuen Touching Nemo the Anabaptiste what haue we to doe with him The Protestants haue most soundly confuted the sect of Anabaptists when Papists haue taken their ease And Christian Reader I desire thee to behould howe the Doctor dealeth whether against his owne conscience or no I leaue to God in charging vs with Anabaptists speeches whereas we renounce such lewd sectaries as he himselfe can testifie Thomas Bell is as I thinke aliue and therefore can answer for himselfe Wherefore I leaue him who hath learnedly written against Poperie and come to Melancthon who is charged to proceede against his conscience because he was sad and gaue himselfe to weeping O M. Doctor howe doe you forget your selfe is euery one a sinner against his conscience that weepeth and sorroweth and that cannot by and by be comforted Dauid was many times heauie and his soule had not alwaies comfort yet was Dauid a man after Gods owne heart Concerning Carolastadius I will not say any thing neither doe I regard what any Lutherane hath written of Zuinglius and Oecolampadius As for Bucer it is a lewde slaunder that he had no religion at all God wil be reuenged of you M. Doctor for blaspheming his seruants after this manner Bishop Iuell is charged to shewe himselfe without God and conscience he doth rent in peeces the text of Doctors and inuerteth the sense of the same If this reuerend Bishoppe had done thus his enemies would haue found it no doubt M. Doctor you would haue noted some places but seeing you haue noted no such corruptions we account it a detestable lie No no your owne men change the words of Fathers I will referre you to places Bellarm. lib. 1. de grat lib. arbit cap. 11. doeth shamefully corrupt Augustine as I haue shewed in another worke and in his 4. booke de amiss gra and 9. chap. he rendeth in peeces Hieroms saying Againe in his 3. booke de cult Sanct. cap. 9. he doeth horribly cite Eusebius So doeth he also in his 1. booke de Sanct. beat cap. 13. Thus he dealeth not onely with Fathers but with Caluin in his preface de libero arbit and his first booke de Sanct. beat cap. 1. 2. de iustif cap. 8. Read these places your selfe M. Doctor and compare them with the authors and see who corrupt fathers Many other testimonies I could produce but I desire not to be tedious If you could alleadge so many corruptions out of reuerend Iuell I thinke we should haue seene them Thus I pray you consider your owne argument They which corrupt Fathers sinne against their conscience But the Papists corrupt Fathers ergo Pag. 10. The assumption is prooued by the testimonies alleadged and to giue you one or two more Duraeus citing Augustine leaueth out these words Opera sequuntur iustificatum non praecedunt iustificandum Workes followe him that is iustified they goe not before iustification The Rhemists vpon the 19. of Mathew peruert Augustine his words cleane contrarie to his meaning affirming no man to be excluded from the gift of continencie whereas Augustine his meaning is that both the will to be chaste and the power to fulfill that will is the gift of God Nowe I might followe your example of bitternes seeing I haue giuen you so many corruptiōs but I leaue this course and desire you to remember your own argument I come to Papists who seeme to haue proceeded against their owne consciences One Papist in England as
vnderstood comparatiuely the Gospel was before his time but it was not in tanta luce in such brightnes as it hath beene since and I trust it shall more and more increase ingratijs Papistarum whether the Papists will or no. They may presse the truth but they shall neuer oppresse it they may vaunt of veritie but they must winne the cause by force of arguments The second reason the name of Catholikes A man may maruell that any who would perswade to religion should make so simple an argument as this They which are called Catholikes are the true Church But the Papists are called Catholikes Ergo they are the true Church The proposition is false Salvianus in the beginning of his 4. booke of prouidence speaketh excellently of this point Nomen sine officio nihil est nam sicut ait quidam in scriptis suis quid est principatus sine meritorum sublimitate nisi honoris titulus sine nomine A name without the dutie is nothing for as one faith in his writings what is principalitie without sublimitie of good works but a bare title of honour For the further handling of this matter we will consider what Catholike is Vincentius Lyrinensis thus describeth this word Catholike Quod ab omnibus creditum est Catholicum est that which is beleeued of all men is Catholike Is Poperie then Catholike which is not beleeued of all men I will name some opinions and prooue them not to be credited of all and I will beginne with the worshipping of Images which I will prooue not to be Catholike Minutius Foelix in his Octauius speaketh thus Cruces nec colimus nec optamus we neither worship nor wish for Crosses Againe in the same treatise it is demanded of Christians Cur nullas aras habent templa nulla nulla nota simulachra why they haue no altars no temples no images The Councell of Eliberis in Spaine haue in plaine words banished them out of Churches Placuit picturas in Ecclesiis esse non debere ne quod colitur aut adoratur in parietibus depingatur We haue decreed that pictures ought not to be in the Churches least that which is worshipped or adored be painted on walls Sigebert in the yeare of our Lord 755. writeth that Constantinus Jmperator Constantinopoli synodum trecentorum triginta Episcoporum congregat in qua edicto promulgato de Imaginibus Dei sanctorum eius deponendis Ecclesiam Dei nimis scandalizat Constantine the Emperour gathered a Councell at Constantinople of 330. Bishops in which publishing an edict against the Images of God and the Saints he doth too much scandalize the Church Thus it appeareth that worshipping of Images is not Catholike Secondly the Papists teach that the Church is built vpon vpon Peters person Is this Catholike doctrine Ionas in his second booke of Images speaketh thus of this point Multi penè omnes Petram super quam aedificatur Ecclesia fidem intelligunt beati Petri quae communis est totius sanctae Ecclesiae videlicet eam quae paulò ante promissionem hanc praecesserat id est tu es Christus filius Dei vivi Many and almost all vnderstand by the Rocke on which the Church is built the faith of blessed Peter which is common to all the holy Church namely that which a little before was precedent to this promise that is to say Thou art Christ the sonne of the liuing God Thirdly the Papists teach that the virgin Marie was no sinner is this catholike doctrine Read Aquinas in his third part the 27. quaest the 4. art and his answer to the third argument where reiecting Chrysostomes authoritie he saith that excessit in illis verbis his words are too broad yet many yeares after Chrysostome was this doctrine held in 22. Math. Theophilact writeth that Marie was ambitiosula tanto sibi filio subdito somewhat ambitious hauing such a sonne vnder her Fourthly the Papists teach that Ministers may not haue wiues is this catholike many hundred yeares after Christ Priests were married In the yeare of our Lord 1074. Hildebrand as Lambertus Schafuaburgensis reporteth decreed that Habentes aut dimittant aut deponantur they which had wiues must either dismisse them or be deposed therefore saith the forenamed writer Aduersus hoc decretum infremunt tota factio Clericorum the whole companie of the Cleargie stormed against this decree The same is also reported by Sigebert saying that Gregorie vxorates Sacerdotes à divino officio removit novo exemplo remooued from diuine seruice the married Priests by a new example What should I speake of prayer in a strange tongue of concealing the Scriptures from the people of summoning of Councells by the Pope These with many other opinions might I shew to be against diuinitie taught in the ancient Church Pacianus thus describeth Catholike that it is Obedientia omnium mandatorum scilicet Dei an obedience vnto all Gods commandements Now let vs see whether you teach obedience vnto Gods commandements or no to let passe Idolatrie and other sinnes M. Perk. ex Molano See more of this point in the Reason of doctrine I come to swearing The Papists teach that they may sweare that they haue not beene at Masse when they haue beene there This is nothing but to prophane an oath as Aquinas testifieth in his 2. 2. 89. quaest art 7. and answer to the 4. argument saying Quacunque arte verborum quis iuret Deus tamen qui conscientiae testis est ita hoc accipit sicut ille cui iuratur intelligit with what cunning soeuer a man doth sweare God who is the witnesse of conscience doth take it as he meaneth to whō a man sweareth Let vs now heare the reason why the name Catholike prooueth a Church because they that are so named haue on their side Scriptures Fathers Councells and Martyrs for of miracles we shall speake hereafter This proud bragge I vtterly denie concerning Scriptures I say with Salvianus in his 5. booke of prouidence that Nos tantùm Scripturas plenas habemus qui eas vel in fonte suo bibimus vel certè de purissimo fonte haustas we onely haue the Scriptures fully perfect which either drinke them in their fountaine or translated out of a most pure fountaine Touching Fathers by that which hath bin said afore it appeareth that they are not all on their side What should I speake of the famous Martyrs in Queene Maries daies which died in the religion now taught in England Thus therefore I returne the argument They which are falsly called Catholikes are not the true church But the Papists are falsly called Catholikes Ergo they are not the true church Concerning the name of Protestants we doe not hold our selues content with it although it be not so bad as the name of Papists and touching the names of Calvinists and Zwinglians they are names invented as Athanasians and Omousians were by the old heretikes But whereas he giueth some allowance to the name
booke of his Confessions shall finde that he did beleeue the Scriptures for themselues In his 14. chap. of the booke cited by the Doctor he writeth thus Quid putas faciendum nisi vt eos relinquamus qui nos invitant certa cognoscere postea imperant vt incerta credamus eos sequamur qui nos invitant prius credere quod nondum valemus intueri vt ipsa side valentiore facti quod credimus intelligere mereamur non iam hominibus sed ipso Deo intrinsecus mentem nostram firmante atque illuminante what haue we to doe but to forsake them that inuite vs to know certaine things and afterwards command vs to beleeue vncertaine things and to follow thē which inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to behold that beeing made stronger through faith we may attaine to vnderstand that we beleeue now not men but God himselfe confirming and lightning our minde inwardly The spirit of God therefore must cause vs to beleeue otherwise we shall wauer and stagger To conclude this point many borne in heresie and schisme haue bin mooued by heretikes to beleeue the Scriptures is heresie therfore equal to the scriptures nothing lesse The three Creedes we receiue because the doctrine is contained in the scriptures but you doe not receiue Athanasius his Creede for he maketh but two places vitam aeternam ignem aeternum Omnes homines resurgent cum corporibus suis reddituri sunt de factis preprijs rationem qui benè egerunt ibunt in vitam aeternam qui verò malè in ignem aeternum All men shall rise with their owne bodies and shall giue an account of their deedes and they which haue done well shall goe into life euerlasting they which haue done euill into euerlasting fire You teach that Infants vnbaptized shall be in a brimme of hell and not in the fire of hell Thus if you had bin wise M. Doctor you would haue bin silent concerning these Creeds If I should shew your contrarieties to the Apostles creed I should be ouerlong That the holy Ghost doth proceede from the Father and the Sonne Lib. 2. de Christ cap. 22. Bellarmine prooueth plentifully out of the Scriptures What an ignorant Doctor is this that cannot see this mysterie prooued in holy Scripture Touching the tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments what if they be not in Scriptures the heauenly doctrine signified by the words is contained in scriptures If these wordes were necessarie to saluation then men were damned before they were inuented which I thinke the Doctor will not grant for many beleeued the things although the names were not extant Augustine calleth the bookes of Tobie and other Canonical because they were read to edification for I hope you will not oppose his authoritie to so many Fathers as I haue before produced In the place by you cited he will haue those books which are receiued of all Churches preferred before those which some Churches receiue not hence it is manifest that he maketh not all of equall authoritie Lib. 2 con gaud cap. 23. Elswhere he will haue the bookes of Machabees read so it be non inutiliter sobriè not vnprofitably and soberly Why doth he giue this caution to these bookes if they were of like authoritie And in his booke de praed Sanct. c. 14. he confesseth when he did produce a testimonie out of the booke of Wisdome that the brethren did reiect it there he contendeth not much for it If it had bin Canonicall he should not haue so remissely pleaded for it Thus it appeareth why he calleth these books canonical Where you say that no heretike can charge the Church with adding or diminishing one iot from the Scriptures we must admire Gods prouidence and his loue towards his church he preserueth the Scriptures though men would take thē out of the world But if you meane that the church of Rome hath not altered the holy Scriptures you must know that the Papists hold the Hebrew and the Greeke text to be corrupt and haue established a Latin translation differing farre from the Hebrew and Greeke and is not this to alter the scriptures If I should shew the corruptions of that trāslation I should be very tedious I will name one in the 1. of the Hebr. it is said Christ hath purged our sinnes by himselfe these words by himselfe are cleane stricken out of their Rhemists translation what an intollerable corruption is this But I will conclude the matter in a syllogisme They which establish a corrupt translation alter the scriptures or at least a iot of the same But the Papist establish a corrupt translation Ergo. And indeede I cannot sufficiently wonder at them who establish their Latine translation eo nomine because it is Hieroms and yet will not allow his translations of the Psalmes what dealing with the Scriptures is this he hath corrected that translation of the Psalmes which they vse and yet they haue defied it You further demand why we should trust the Church of Rome rather in this then in other things I answer first that as I haue prooued we trust not the Church of Rome but the scriptures themselues secondly it is a ridiculous consequent We beleeue the church of Rome in this point ergo we must doe so in all other To make your follie manifest vnto you selfe M. D. you beleeue the church of England in some points will you doe so in all I would it were so That we haue had nothing to doe with the Bible for a thousand yeares and that we haue robbed the Church of many bookes are detestable vntruths But I pray you Syr were not the scriptures preserued in the Greeke church as well as in the Romish church did not the Iewes keepe the scriptures and yet to vse your phrase our Sauiour wrested thē out of their hands not as iust but as vniust possessours of them The Pharisies might haue vsed the same speech to our Sauiour Christ that the Doctor doth to vs. He hath three other questions in this chapter The first is how we relying onely vpon scripture can shew certainly which bookes be scripture and which not This question I haue at large answered in this chapter and therefore I will not repeat my answer Secondly he would know of the vnlearned Protestant how he knoweth the translations to be true I answer that it is not necessarie to know euery thing to be truly translated The spirit of God speaking in the scriptures certifieth the conscience of the vnlearned that the scriptures in the English tongue are the scriptures The third question it why we beleeue our owne iudgements rather the Luthers or Calvins I answer we beleeue their iudgements that bring best proofes out of Scriptures But M. Doctor because you haue posed vs with so many questions now I will pose you with one likewise Why doe you receiue your latin translation rather vpon this Popes authoritie
of Papists it may not be tollerated for why may they not as well be called Petrians and therefore I say with Nazianzen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In dic Christs I will not be named of men beeing borne of God In Psal 44. and with Augustine Sumus Christiani non Petriani we are Christians not Petrians I cannot let passe his ignorance in saying that all heretikes haue alwaies taken their names of some one who began that heresie For not to take exception against his speach by the first authors of heresie as Nestorius Pelagius euery meane diuine knoweth that many heretikes haue their names of their heresie not of their author as Apostolici Cathari and others If the Lutherans haue changed the word Catholike in the Creede draw your penne against them and not against the church of England But it is a perilous matter for some of our translations to say for an heretike a man that is the author of sects His owne men so translate the word heresie Act. 24. chap. 28. chap. A great matter to english a greeke word Thankes be to God that you haue no other cauills against our translations I hope such pelting will driue men from Poperie Your saying out of Hierome galleth your selues and prooueth you to be sectaries as beeing named Dominicans Franciscans Iesuits and with diuers other names Therfore please not your selues any longer with a bare name without the subiect matter for that is like a pearle in the snowt of a swine The 3. reason vnitie and consent Hauing answered two of the Doctors reasons I come to handle the third in which he vaunteth of vnitie after this manner The Catholike religion hath varietie of doctrine with diuersitie of manners yet euer kept vnitie in such a peaceable manner as neuer any disagreed in any point of doctrine Blush M. Doctor at this notorious vntruth I haue in my disswasiue from Poperie gathered 20. contradictions betwixt Papists in matters of faith and to giue you a tast of your vnitie I will set downe your harmonie about Antichrist Some Papists hold Mahomet to be Antichrist Bellarmine in his 3. booke de Rom. Pont. cap. 3. This is denied by other because say they Antichrist shall be one singular man Secondly some Papists teach that Antichrist shall arise of the tribe of Dan cap. 11. yet Bellarmine confesseth that this opinion is not certaine because no scripture conuinceth it Thirdly the Papists teach that Antichrist shall raigne but three yeares and an halfe yet Hentenius confuteth this opinion Fourthly some Papists teach that Antichrist shall vtterly extinguish the faith as I prooued before Bellarmine denieth this not without cause Fifthly the Rhemists say that it may well be that Antichrist shall sit at Rome Bellarmine will haue him to sit at Ierusalem I will not follow any more contradictions about this opinion but come to their vnitie in Idolatrie Catharine affirmeth the commandement which concerneth Images to be temporall and positiue is not this goodly diuinitie others denie it Caietan confoundeth an Idol and an Image Bellarmine cannot beare this doctrine Aquinas will haue the crosse of Christ to be worshipped with diuine honour others renounce Aquinas in this point Alphonsus de Castro counteth Serenus and Epiphanius enemies to Images Bellarmine confuteth Alphonsus his opinion Abulensis and Peresius teach that Images of God are not to be made Bellarmine like an Idolater alloweth Images of God himselfe Augustine speaketh plainly against this diuelish diuinitie Nulla Imago Dei coli debet nisi illa quae hoc est quod ipse nec ipsa pro illo Epist 1â—9 sed cum illo No image of God must be worshipped but that which is God and that not for God but with God By these contrarieties euery man may see the popish harmonie Now I reduce the Argument into a syllogisme Where vnitie is there is the Church But the Papists haue vnitie Ergo. The proposition and assumption are both false and whereas he would prooue the proposition out of the 4. of the Acts and 17. of S. Iohn we must know that an vnitie in true doctrine is there commended and praied for Si vultis saith Augustine vivere de spiritu sancto c â—6 serm de temp tenete charitatem amate veritatem desiderate vnitatem vt perveniatis ad aeternitatem If you will liue according to the holy spirit then imbrace loue make much of truth and desire vnitie that you may come to eternitie Vnitie therefore in veritie must bring vs to eternitie But in sadnes is there no Church where there are dissentions â— book tripar hist 12. chap. Themistius wrote to Valens that he should not be cruell to Christians for difference in Ecclesiasticall opinions for amongst the Pagans there were more then three hundred sects Will you M. Doctor cut off the Church of Corinth from the bodie of the Church because of dissentions What shall become of Paul and Barnabas Cyprian and Cornelius Epiphanius and Chrysostome with diuers others And to stay thy minde Christian Reader touching this point of dissentions I desire thee first to consider that all men haue not the same measure of the spirit and therefore there must needes be contentions God his gifts are diuers to one man he giueth greater knowledge then to another therefore Paul saith when perfection of knowledge commeth there shall be an vnitie in opinions which is not to be looked for in this vale of miserie Secondly vaine-glorie the mother of mischieuous contentions is not wholly driuen out of men that liue in the Church I would to God it were for then many broyles would haue an ende Maruell not then gentle Reader though there be varietie of opinions I might inlarge these reasons and annex moe but I desire breuitie The Doctor here to amplifie our diuisions without all conscience chargeth vs with the heresies of Anabaptists Adamites Striblerians and many other which we condemne to the pit of hell But for a testimonie of our vnitie let our heauenly harmonie of Confessions be read in which a man may see our consent to be greater then the Papists would wish The scornefull name of Parlimentarie religion I leaue to God to reuenge if Queene Marie might receiue the Pope by Parliament why might not Queene Elizabeth doe as much for Christ And thus I retort the argument Where there are diuisions there is no Church But amongst Papists are diuisions Ergo. In the ende of this reason he concludeth with a manifest vntruth saying that all decrees of lawfull Councells and of Popes doe agree in points of doctrine one with another Good God! what dare not this man affirme I passe by Councells and come to Popes Pope Nicholas auoucheth that Baptisme may be giuen and ministred onely in the name of Christ which is a false opinion as Bellarmine himselfe confesseth Pope Pelagius contrariwise decreed that it ought to be ministred in the name of the blessed Trinitie Aquinas 3. par quaest 66. art 6. In
Aristippus of Dyonisius his liberalitie Tutò Dyonisius inquit liberalis est his enim qui multis indigent pauca mittit Platoni verò qui nihil accipit plurima Dyonisius saith Aristippus maintaineth all his liberalitie well enough for to the needie he sendeth fewe things but to Plato which lacketh nothing many gifts Euen so the Doctor in needelesse matters heapeth vp many testimonies but in matters of question he hath no proofe but bold assertions If he had prooued that these prophesies are verified in no religion but onely in the religion which now the Papists hold he had done well but hic labor hoc opus this is such paines as would make the Doctor sweat As the Prophets foretold the largenes of Christs religion 2. Thesâ— â— so Paul prophesied of an Apostasie from the same as the Rhemists confesse and as the same men write vpon the 12. of the Rev. where S. Iohn foresheweth that the Church shall flie into the wildernes that now in England The Church Catholike because it hath no publicke state or regiment nor open free exercise of functions may be said to be fled into the desart so say I of our Church in the raigne of Antichrist And thus I conclude As the Papists Church is now in England though not visible so was the Protestants in Antichrists raigne But the Papists Church is now in England Ergo. The proposition is manifest by S. Iohn who foretelleth the flight of the Church into the wildernes Let Reinerus speake Catal. test â—ec who was a popish inquisitour he saith that the poore men of Lyons were more pernitious to the Romish Church then all other sects for three causes first because it hath beene of longer continuance for some say that it hath endured since the time of Sylvester others say it hath endured since the Apostles time The second cause is because it is more generall for there is almost no land in which this sect doth not creepe The third cause is for that all other sects doe bring in an horrour with their heinousnes of their blasphemies against God This sect of the Leonists hath a great shewe of godlines because they liue iustly before men and beleeue all things well concerning God and all the articles which are contained in the Creede they blaspheme and hate onely the Church of Rome This is the testimonie of a cruell enemie and persecutor of them whereby euery man may see the Church to haue continued maugre Antichrist These men are knowne to haue continued in Bohemia Calabria Piemont and other places Their faith is printed in the booke called Fasciculus rerum expetendarum where who listeth may read the same But now I reduce his argument into a syllogisme They which haue the largest scope are the true Church But the Papists haue the largest scope Ergo. The proposition beseemeth an Ethnicke better then a Christian might not the heathen haue made the same against Christ The Pharisies argue indeede after the same manner Ioh. 7. Doth any of the Rulers beleeue in Christ so the Papists say Doe any Popes Cardinalls embrace Luthers doctrine In the 1. King 22. there are foure hundred Prophets against Michaiah yet Michaiah had the truth In the third of Daniel three onely resisted the Kings edict Esa 1.9 The Prophet Esai affirmeth that except the Lord had reserued a remnant they had bin as Sodom and Gomorrah Elias complaineth that he was left alone In the daies of Achab the altar of God was remooued and an idolatrous altar by the high Priests consent was set vp 1. king 16. and chap. 17.19 it is said that Iudah did not keepe the Lords commandements but walked in the errours of Israel Likewise Manasses and Amon built an idolatrous altar 2. king 21.4 5. and 22. v. might not they haue made the same argument Lib. de bre vitae Well saith Seneca Non tam benè cum rebus humanis agitur vt meliora pluribus placeant argumentum pessimi turba est It is not so well with humane affaires that most men like the best things the multitude is an argument of the worst Bellarmine hath this ingenious confession Si sola vna provincia retineret veram fidem adhuc verè propriè diceretur Ecclesia Catholica If onely one Prouince should retaine the faith yet that Prouince should be the true Church Therefore largenesse of dominion is not a note of the true Church But it is worthie to be noted first that this Doctour reckneth the largenesse of the Romane religion but for a thousand yeares for space then of sixe hundred yeares our Church had large dominion antiquitie then is with vs. Verily if our Church was ample for sixe hundred yeares I make no doubt of our religion and indeede the largenesse which the Prophets foretold was verified of the Apostolicall Church and by consequent of ours Let the Scriptures iudge whether we teach the same doctrnie that the Apostles did or no. I would not haue the Doctour to thinke that for a thousand yeares we had no church for that we alwaies had a Church I prooued before out of their owne writers Images were reiected by many Bishops seauen hundred yeares after Christ Ministers were likewise married as I shewed before for a thousand yeares And not to name many other points of doctrine Bellarmine prooueth the seauen Sacraments out of Peter Lombard is not this goodly doctrine which can bring no better authors for it then the master of sentences Barnard denieth merits Bellarmine answereth that he did it of humilitie at sancti humiles esse debent non mendaces Saints must be humble not liars In the yeare of our Lord one thousand one hundred and seauen the poore men of Leodium prooued Pope Paschal to be Antichrist In epist ad Pas Hactenus interpretabar say they ideo veluisse Petrum per Babilonem significare Romam quia tunc temporis Roma confusa erat Idololatria omni spurcitie at nunc dolor meus interpretatur quod Petrus prophetico spiritu dicens ecclesiam in Babilone collectam praedicit confusionem dissentionis qua hodie scinditur ecclesia I was wont to interpret that Peter by Babylon would signifie Rome because Rome at that time was confused with idolatrie and filthinesse but now my sorrow doth interpret vnto me that Peter calling the Church gathered togither in Babylon foresaw by the spirit of prophesie the confusion of dissention wherewith the Church at this day is rent in pieces And in the yeare of our Lord 1240. Cranâ— lib. â— Met. 18. many preachers in high Germanie did freely preach against the Pope Crantzius a man who greatly fauoured the Pope saith thus of them Quidam pulsatis campanis conuocatis baronibus terrarum certaine ringing the bells and calling the Barons of the countries are affirmed to preach publikely that the Pope was an heretike his Bishops and Prelates Symonists and heretikes Bertrame eight hundred yeares after Christ was an enemie vnto
first that Augustine speaketh of ancient miracles for he saith tenet me authoritas miraculis inchoata authoritie begunne by miracles doth hold me in Secondly I answer that Augustine doth preferre truth before miracles in the same place he confesseth that veritas est illis omnibus praeponenda truth is to be preferred before all those things Now I returne the argument They which haue true miracles are the true Church But the Protestants haue true miracles Ergo. For the proofe of the assumption we produce the Apostles miracles by which that doctrine which we maintaine was confirmed many hundred yeares agoe If our doctrine be not conteined in the scriptures let it be disprooued by the same But because the Doctour saith out of Augustine that he is bound in the Church by the bond of miracles I would it might please him a little to listen vnto S. Augustine writing thus de Vni eccle cap. 16. Non dicat ideò verum esse quia illa illa mirabilia fecit Donatus vel Pontius c. Let no man say it is true because Donatus or Pontius hath done these or these miracles or because men at the memorie of the dead doe pray and are heard or because these or these things doe happen there or because this our brother or that our sister saw such a vision waking or dreamed such or such a vision sleeping In in the same cap. Augustine speaketh thus quaecunque talia such things whatsoeuer are to be approoued because they are done in the Catholike Church yet it is not made knowne by them Belsee his reports of Luther and Calvin we reiect and touching our Gospel it is not altogether without miracles in these daies your Idols are fallen quisquis adhuc prodigia vt credat inquirit The world beleeuing whosoeuer seeketh for wonders that he might beleeue is himselfe a wonder Take heede therefore M. Doctour least you make your selfe a miracle that will not beleeue without miracles The 7. reason visions and the gift of prophesie Cytharaedus ridiculus chorda qui semper oberrat eadem This Doctour harpeth alwaies vpon one string he is not contented with Miracles but now he commeth to Visions and confidently affirmeth that visions and the gift of prophesie were neuer found to be but in the true Church yet Aquinas in his 2. 2. 172. quest art 6. teacheth that prophetae daemonum aliquando verum praedicant the deuills prophets sometimes foretell the truth yea he auoucheth that propheta daemonum non semper loquuntur ex revelatione daemonum sed interdum ex inspiratione divina that the deuills prophets did not alwaies speake by reuelation from the deuill but sometime by inspiration from God and this he prooueth by Balaam his example vnto whome the Lord spake as it is in the 22. of Numb The Sybilles as the Doctour himselfe confesseth prophesied for the confirmation of right religion yet were they Ethnicks and liued amongst them Who dare say that the Church were with the heathen because of the Sybilles But I draw this argument into a syllogisme They which haue visions and the gift of prophesie are the Church But the Papists haue visions and the gift of prophesie Ergo. Aquinas as you haue heard M. Doctour denieth your proposition and whereas you would prooue the same because S. Paul S. Peter and S. Iohn stand vpon Reuelations behold now your double follie First you thus conclude the Church had visions therefore it onely hath visions which is as good as if a man should conclude the Church teacheth the Trinitie ergo no heretikes teach the same Secondly the Church had visions therefore it shall alwaies haue visions who will graunt you this consequence S. Augustine saith 3. booke de bap cap. 10. that miracles were ad ecclesiae primordia dilatanda to enlarge the beginnings of the Church so were visions to last for a time I returne the argument They which haue visions and the gift of prophesie are the true Church But the Protestants haue visions Ergo they are the true Church The Assumption is prooued by S. Pauls Saint Peters and Saint Iohns visions our doctrine is the same with theirs Saint Iohn heard a voice from heauen saying Blessed are the dead for they rest from their labours so say we therfore there is no purgatorie paines for them after this life The Scriptures teach that the sufferings of Christ are a perfect and full satisfaction for our sinnes so say we and therefore there remaineth not any part of Gods iustice to be satisfied by vs. But let vs see what visions the Papists haue and what a dangerous thing it is to stand vpon visions Bellarmine in his 2. booke of purgatorie and 7. chap. alleadgeth a vision out of Beda to prooue besides hell purgatorie and heauen a fourth place namely pratum florentissimum dilucidissimum as it were a most goodly meadow And in the same booke and 4. chap. he sheweth that Dyonisius the Carthusian and Michael Baius by visions would prooue that the soules in purgatorie were not certen of their saluation which opinion he confuteth Thus you see out of your owne writers what credit is to be giuen to visions by such counterfaiting meanes we may prooue any thing I say therefore with Augustine Removeantur ista vel figmenta mendacium hominum vel portenta fallacium spirituum Away with these fained things of lying men or monsters of lying spirits And now M. Doctour to argue vpon your owne graunts both of miracles and visions You say that the heathen had prophesies to confirme right religion graunt you then that you haue some few which works both true miracles and see true visions it is not to confirme your erroneous doctrine but to confirme that truth of doctrine which is held in your Church for all them you are a corrupt Church yet there are some reliques of true doctrine remaining and so by sequele of your owne speech these things may come to passe to confirme that true doctrine which is amōgst you Heretikes haue held some true opinions that there heresies might be the better bolstered out You hold the Trinitie and some other points of religion it may be then that if there be any miracles or visions amongst you it is to confirme the reliques of that truth which remaineth with you Thus I haue argued vpon your owne wordes and graunt But for my part I hold with Chrysostome 49. hom in op◠imper that nunc nulla probatio esse potest vorae ecclesiae there can be now no proofe of the true Church but onely by the Scriptures He giueth a reason of his speach quia saith he qua propria sunt in veritate ca hareses habent in schismate habent ecclesias habent scripturas diuinas habent Episcopos caeterosque ordines clericorum habent baptismum habent Eucharistiam caeteraque omnia because those things which are peculiar to truth heresies haue in their schisme they haue Churches they haue Scriptures they haue Bishoppes
crosse but they keepe the lists of the libertie that is giuen vs. Gâ—l de 〈◊〉 nâ—t in Christ advers Eutych Nest fol. 2â—â— Gelasius is direct against Transubstantiation Sacramenta quae suminus corporis sanguinis Christi divina res est propter quod per cadem divinae efficimur consortes naturae tamen esse non definit substantia vel panis vel vini The sacraments which we receiue of the bodie and blood of Christ are a diuine thing therefore by them we are made partakers of the diuine nature yet for all that ceaseth not the substance of bread and wine to be Gelasius writeth against Eutyches who affirmed that Christâ— humane nature was turned into his Godhead this opinion is thus refuted As the bread and wine after consecration are changed into the bodie and blood of Christ so is his humane nature turned into his diuine after ascension But the bread and wine are not changed in substance Ergo. Thus by your doctrine of Transubstantiation you make the auncient Churches argument worth nothing I will adioyne the testimonie of Cyril of Ierusalem because saith Bellarmine testimonium huius vel solum sufficere debet his testimonie alone ought to suffice Mista in his 4. Catechisme thus he speaketh Ne ergo consideres panem nudum vinum nudum corpus enim est sanguis Christi consider not bare bread and wine for it is the bodie and blood of Christ ergo it is still bread but not bare bread Againe in his 3. Catechisme he is as plaine Quemadmodum panis Eucharistiae post Spiritus sancti invocationem non amplius est communis panis sed est corpus Christi sic sanctum hoc vnguentum non amplius est vnguentum nudum atque commune postquam iam consecratum est sed est charisma Christi As the bread of the Eucharist after the inuocation of the holy Ghost is no more common bread but it is the bodie of Christ so is this holy oyntment no more bare oyntment nor common oyntment after it is consecrated but it is the gratious gift of Christ Here is no more Transubstantiation in the one then in the other Likewise in his first Catechisme he writeth after the same manner Quemadmodum enim panis vinum eucharistia antè sacram inuocationem adorandae trinitatis panis erat vinum merum sic cibi ciusmodi pompae Sathanae suapte natura puri sunt sed invocatione daemonum impuri efficiuntur euen as the bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the inuocation of the adored Trinitie was bare bread and wine so such meates Sathans pomps were pure of their owne nature but by inuocation of the deuills they are become impure Loe what is become of your Transubstantiation Augustine condemneth worshippers of pictures Novi multos esse sepulchrorum picturarum adoratores I know saith he there are many that adore sepulchres and pictures Bellarmine in his first answers to this place commeth in with his fortasses peraduenture in his last answer he confesseth that he wrote this booke when he was first conuerted Here then it is manifest that Augustine condemneth worshippers of pictures Lactantius in his 6. booke 3. chap. acknowledgeth but two waies duae sunt viae vna quae in coelem ferat altera qua ad inferes deprimat there are two waies one which goeth to heauen and the other which tendeth to hell The testimonie which Bellarmine alleadgeth out of him for purgatorie speaketh of a fire to purge the righteous after the last iudgement when Popish purgatorie shall haue an ende as Bellarmine prooueth in his 2. booke and 19. chap. Theophilact condemneth your halfe communion saying that tremendus hic calix cunctis pari conditione est traditus this fearefull cuppe is equally giuen to all The testimonies of fathers in this point are many and pregnant Paschasius thus expoundeth the words of Christ bibite ex hoc omnes id est tam ministri quà m reliqui credentes Drinke ye all of this as well ministers as others Bellarmine confesseth Lib. 2. de miss cap. 9. that nusquam expressè legimus à veteribus oblatum sacrificium sine communione alicuius vel aliquorum praeter ipsum sacerdotem we neuer read expressely that the sacrifice was offered of auncient men without the communion of some besides the priest Loe what friends the fathers are to your priuate Masse 28. cap. Walfridus Strabo writeth thus Fatendum est illam esse legitimam Missam cui intersunt sacerdos respondens offerens atque communicans sicut ipsa conceptio precum euidenti ratione demonstrat we must confesse that to be a lawfull Masse at which the priest the answerer and the communicant are present euen as the conceiuing of praiers doth prooue by euident reason Therefore your priuate Masse is vnlawfull Vealrichus Bishop of Augusta anno 978. wrote in the defence of the marriage of Ministers Bellarmine prooueth this epistle to be fained be it so yet did no Lutherane coyne it And whereas he will haue but one of this name it is false For Complicatio Chronologica confesseth there are two and that anibâ— were sancti both were holy I will not contend about this matter it sufficieth that some taught this doctrine But why doe I labour to shew that the fathers doe not teach all points of Poperie let their owne Index expurgatorius speake Quanquam librum istum vz. Bertrami non magni aestimemus momenti saith the Papist itaque non magnopere laboraturi sumus si vel nusquam sit vel intercidat attamen cum in alijs caâ—bolicis veteribus plurimos feramus errores extenuemus excusemus excogitato commento persaepè negemus commodamijs sensum affingamus dum opponuntur in disputationibus conflictionibus cum adversarijs non videmus cur non candem aequitatem diligentem recognitionem mereatur Bertrâ—â—s Although we make no great account of this booke namely Bertrams and therefore we would not greatly care if either it were extant or vtterly lost and seeing that in other ancient Catholike writers we beare very many errours and extenuate them excuse them and very oftentimes by deuising some preuie shift we denie them and doe faine some commodious sense vnto them when they are opposed against vs in disputations or in conflicts with the aduersaries we doe not see why Bertrame doth not deserue the same equitie and diligent recognition This their owne testimonie may suffice to prooue that the fathers are not theirs and that the Papists are void of all truth and honestie What Causaeus a French Protestant and Luther haue written touching Dyonisius I know not but this I am assured of that this Demus was not S. Pauls scholler Bellarmine in his 2. booke de confess cap. 7. writeth to this effect that his booke est dubius vel supposititius is either doubtfull or fained The same thing is not denied by the Catechisme of Colon. pag. 119.
then vpon that Popes authoritie Pope Sixtus saith â—ead M. Iames. before the Vatican edition their vulgar latin translation was schismatis occasio the occasion of heresie Now Pope Clements edition is approoued farre differing from Sixtus edition What certaintie then haue Papists who will take the scriptures now vpon this now vpon that Popes warrant But I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which haue no certaine triall of truth are not the Church But the Protestants haue no certaine triall Ergo. I denie the assumption for we haue the scriptures which are the infallible rule of truth Our Sauiour Christ vanquished the deuill by the scriptures The Bereans tried the Apostles doctrine by the scriptures Lib. 2. denupt cap. â—â— and may not we so doe S. Augustine writeth thus Ista controuersia iudicem riquirit this controuersie requireth a iudge who shall be iudge he answereth Christ Iudicet Christus let Christ be iudge He doth name neither Pope nor Romish church For as he saith in another place Scriptura est eminentissima authoritatis 〈◊〉 Civit. l. 11. c. 3. the scriptures are of a most soueraigne and peerelesse authoritie Lib. 5. Optatus disputing whether the baptized are to be rebaptized is worthie to be heard Quarendi sunt saith he aliqui huius controuersiae indices si Christiani de viraque parte dari non possunt quia stuaijs veritas impeditur de foris quarendus est index si l'agaâ—â—â— non potest nosse Christiana secreta si Iudans inimiens est Christiani baptismatis ergo in terris haec de re nullum poterit reperiri iudicium de coelo quaerendus sed vt quid puâ—samus ad coelum cum habemus hîc in Euangelio testamentum inquam quia hoc loco recte possunt terrena coelestibus comparari Some iudges for this controuersie are to be fought for if Christians they cannot be had on both sides because by part-taking the truth is hindred we must seek abroad for a iudge if he be a Pagan he knoweth not Christian secrets if a Iewe he is an enemie to Christian baptisme in earth there can be found no iudgement a iudge from heauen must be required But why doe we knocke at heauen when we haue in the Gospel a testament because in this place earthly things may be fitly coÌ„pared to heauenly things I maruell M. Doctor that your vanting vpon all the Fathers light not vpon this Father who is as you call them a plaine Calvinist But I returne your argument They which haue no certaine triall of the truth are not the Church But the Papist haue no certaine triall of the truth Ergo. The assumption is manifest because they relie vpon Popes that may erre Marellinus sacrificed to idols Liberius was an Arrian And more then this some Iudas might creepe into the office as your Rhemists confesse Some Popes they will not appeale to Councells as it it manifest by the Councell of Basil And M. Doctor in a word what certaintie haue you or can you haue if there happen to be a schisme amongst the Popes The 22. schisme continued 40. yeares as it is recorded in Fascic Temp. and vntill Martin the 5. it was not manifest who was Pope You blaspheme the Scriptures Turrian calleth them a Delphian sword made for want The Censure of Colen saith that it is veluti nasus caereus a nose of waxe O Antichristian Prelates the Lord rebuke you for these your blasphemies against his holy Bible What triall of truth you haue I hope I haue made plaine to your owne conscience M. Doctor In the ende of this chapter you call vs boat-swanes admitting no iudge and say we haue no meanes to rest vntill we end in Atheisme That this name of boat-swanes may returne vpon your head I pray you consider how M. Harding pleadeth for your Pope to be head of the church because the Prophet Hose prophesieth that the children of Israel and Iudah shall haue one head Out vpon you Antichristian heretikes that euer you should thus abuse the holy Bible touching Atheisme wheÌ„ce did Machiauell spring Caius constantly auoucheth Italie to be the very fouÌ„taine of Atheists I conclude this reason with the saying of Picus Mirandula Magna profecto insania est Euangelio non credere cuius veritatem sanguis martyrum clamat Apostolicae resonant voces prodigia probant ratio confirmat mundus testatur elemeÌ„ta loquuÌ„tur Daemones confitentur sed longe maior insania si de Euangelij veritate non dubitas viuere tamen quasi de eius falsitate non dubitares It is exceeding madnesse not to credit the Gospel the truth whereof the blood of Martyrs doth crie the Apostolicall words doe sound miracles do prooue reason doth confirme the world doeth witnesse the elements doe vtter the deuils confesse but it is farre greater folly if thou doubtest not of the trueth of the Gospell so to liue as if thou madest no question but it were false The twelfth reason the vse and custome of the Church De faece hauris you drawe of your dregges M. Doctor when you will beate vs downe with the bare club of custome Custome in ciuill affaires may preuaile much but in diuinity it is not worth a rush except it be ioyned with trueth Prudentius answereth Symmachus making this defence Suus cuique mos suus cuique ritus est Euery one hath his manner and rite Quid mihi tu ritus solitos Romane senator obiectas cum scita patrum populique frequenter in tabulis placiti sententia flexa nouarit Nunc etiam quoties solitis decedere prodest praeteritosque habitus cultu damnare recenti Why doest thou obiect vnto me Custome when a diuers opinion hath changed the decrees of Father and people now also how often doeth it auaile to depart from custome and by a newe manner to condemne the olde habits Morosa moris retentio res est aequè turbulenta ac nouitas A wayward retaining of a Custome is as turbulent a thing as noueltie Balsamon vpon Photius saith that aequitate exigente mutamus consuctudinem Tom. 6. when equitie requireth it we change custome And againe Vidi non scriptam consuetudinem fuisse infirmatam I haue seene an vnwritten custome to haue beene infringed But saith the Doctor the vse and custome of the church hath beene alwaies an infallible rule to direct and order things by First the Doctor beggeth that which is a question taking the Romish Church to be the true Church We denie it prooue it before you plead custome Secondly the Church in times past did giue the Eucharist vnto Infants was this an infallible rule M. Doctor to giue the Sacrament of the bodie and blood of Christ vnto children if you denie that the Church did so you may be confounded with infinite testimonies of authors Augustine in his first booke de peccato mort cap. 20. is plaine vpon which place Erasmus hath made this marginall note Lib. 1. cap. 2. cont Iulian. Nunc
turpi voto muta decretum in malis promissis rescinde fidem in a filthie vow change thy purpose in wicked promises disanull thy faith So doth Aquinas teach in his 2. 2. 88. quest art 10. in these words Potest contigere It may happen that a vow be simply euill or vnprofitable or a hindrance of a greater good and then it may be changed But you like filthie heretikes hold that it is a greater euill to marrie after a vow then to commit fornication Bellar. lib. 2. de Mo. cap. 34. and your Rhemists hold that it is the worst fornication 1. Cor. 7. Turpis saith Hosuis Philippo videtur hac oratio pâ— 412. Catholicis autem honestissima these words vnto Philip Melancthon seeme shamefull but vnto the Catholikes they seeme most honest what words will some say namely these that it is better for vowed persons to commit fornication or to haue a concubine then to marrie For your credit sake hereafter M. Doctor neuer come in with your doctrine of vowes I hope men by considering it will abhorre Poperie But we are not yet come to an ende of this their doctrine The catholike Romane religion teacheth abstinence and fasting which mortifieth our bodies and enricheth our countrey so doe we and doe abstaine not onely from flesh but from fish when we fast and from wine with all other delicates and for the enriching of our countrey there are lawes made to prohibit the eating of flesh on certaine daies and at certaine times But we differ from the Papists in these points first they teach that religious fasting consisteth in choice of meates as abstinence from flesh cheese egges but we teach that it consisteth in abstinence from all kind of meats It is well knowne that Popish fasting is feasting and many had rather be fed with wine and spices and delicates then with flesh Secondly we teach that we must fast to humble our selues to tame the flesh and for other respects but they teach that they fast to merit and to deserue at Gods hands nowe Christian Reader iudge which side holdeth most truely and soundly concerning fasting Some Papists write that we must abstaine from flesh and eate fish because God cursed not the waters is not this to make flesh an vncleane thing and so by consequent they resemble the old heretickes which condeÌ„ned the creatures as vncleane The auntient Christians when they fasted had but one meale a day and that at night our Papists haue two a dinner and a supper Bell. de Iâ—iu but M. Doctor whether is this to fast or no to gorge your selues with eating fish and drinking wine in bowles Wine inflameth concupiscence as well as flesh The auntient Church did not restraine fasting to certaine meates as you may see in Tertullian his booke adversus Psychichos Take heed therefore least you take part with Montanus in restraining to certain meats times Spiridion did sell flesh in lent to be eateÌ„ â—â—cause to the cleane all things are cleane Out of this historie marke these things First that to fast is sine omni cibo permanere to be without all meate Secondly the guest did refuse flesh because he was a Christian Spiridion faith therfore he ought to eate What can be more direct against Popish fasting The Papists say men are no Christians if they eate flesh in lent Spiridion saith because they are Christians therefore they ought to eate flesh Alcibiades liuing sparingly was admonished by God that he should vse all creatures Euseb l. 5. c. 3. Possid in vita August cap. 22. Augustine had alwaies wine because euery creature is sanctified by the word and praier By the same reason flesh is sanctified as well as wine A Christian may say with Augustine Non ego immunditiam obsonij timeo sed immunditiam cupiditatis I feare not the impuritie of the creature but the impuritie of my appetite Take heede also least you take part with Eustathius in this point as you doe in marriage So lib. 2. cap. 31. For he did eschew the companie of a Priest that had a wife and taught that men must abstaine from meates I will not speake of your doctrine of meriting by fasting onely this I say that if Popish fasting be right fasting many can be content to enioy no other feasting To haue most daintie cates fish and wine pleaseth the mouthes of many men as well as flesh To leaue this and to come to other points The Catholik Romane religion Who raise rents in England like vnto Papists yea it may be prooued by examples that there be Româ—ne Chatholikes as hard dealers as any other saith the Doctour forbiddeth Landlords to raise their rents except vrgent occasion driue them so to doe And we teach that oppression is peccatum clamans non amans a crying and not a louing sinne and therefore it is false which you say that we teach the Landlord to doe what he list with his owne the landlord must doe as he would men should doe vnto him he must deale with his tennants as considering himselfe to be a tennant The same Catholike Romane religion teacheth marriage to be indissoluble so doe we excepting the case of adulterie and your doctrine causeth many to fall into that foule sinne for the offending person knowing that the innocent person may not marrie againe careth not to commit that sinne if libertie were graunted the occasion is taken away Secondly you make no difference betwixt the innocent person and the person offending is not this good diuinitie The Grecians also teach as we teach in this point so doth Erasmus and your owne men Caietane and Catherine Thus M. Doctor you care not to accuse your owne champions of prophane doctrine I passe by other testimonies because I will answer briefly libr. de Ma. c. 14. Bellarmine writeth thus Sola fornicatio directè oppenitur fidei coniugali sustantiae ipsius matrimonij Onely fornication is direâ—â—ly opposite to the marriage couenant and to the substance of matrimonie Great reason then is there surely that this sinne should dissolue marriage Doth not that dissolue a thing which ouerthroweth the substance of it And how they prouided for the innocent partie let his word iudge which punisheth the adulterer with death if the adulterer ought to be so punished there can be no question but marriage may be dissolued Hitherto the Doctor hath had but badde successe for his holy doctrine let vs see if his successe be better hereafter The Catholike Romane religion saith he teacheth that all laws of magistrates which be not expresly against the word of God doe binde the subiects in conscience the greater therefore is your sinne because you care not to murder Princes But what if the Pope giueth a dispensation then you may doe what you list O holy and heaueÌ„ly doctrine Our doctrine concerning magistrates lawes is this that the authoritie in generall is to be regarded for conscience because it is Gods ordinance But
to maintaine their doctrine make their priest is iudges and yet the master of sentences witnesseth Lib. 4. that omnes Sacerdotes non habent scientiam discernendi all Priests haue not knowledge to discerne What wretched iudges then are Popish priests which haue not knowledge But suppose them to haue knowledge can they discerne the heart Augustine demandeth â—â—n 3. vnde sciunt an verum dicam how doe they know whether I speake truth or no seeing no man knoweth what is in man but the spirit of man But if confession be so necessarie why did Nectarius take away confession and leaue it to euery mans conscience how he would come to the communion A certaine noble woman confessed particularly her sinnes to the Priest Socrat. l. 5. cap. 18. and because a Deacon had slept with her this confession of sinnes was taken away Is confession of sinnes for this one fact was taken away what iust cause was there to alter Popish auricular confession let the world iudge Not to be long in this point set apart abuses in confession and we doe not denie it If any be troubled in his minde for his sinnes let him seeke a skilfull physitian Otherwise we say with Chrysostome Homil. 31. ad Hebr. Non dico tibi vt te prodas in publicuÌ„ neque vt te accuses apud alios sed obedire te volo prophetae diceÌ„ti revela domino viaÌ„ tuaÌ„ I wil not aduise thee to betray thy self opeÌ„ly nor to accuse thy selfe before others but I couÌ„sel thee to obey the Prophet saying OpeÌ„ thy way vnto the Lord. And again Si confuÌ„deris dicere alicui quia peccasti dicito ea quotidie in anima if thou art ashamed to tell thy sins to any speake theÌ„ in thy soule Satisfaction depending vpon confession is in the next place to be handled The Catholike Romane religion saith the Doctor teacheth satisfaction to be done either in this life or in Purgatorie and vpon consideration of this they builded so many goodly Churches hospitals c. In few words the doctor hath condemed all their glorious workes as beeing done for wrong endes We acknowledge the satisfaction of Christ to be our onely satisfaction for sinne and say with S. Iohn If any man sinne he hath an Aduocate with the Father Iesus Christ and he is the propitiation for our sinnes Maxius saith that Christi passio nobis sufficit ad salutem Serm. 3. Christs passion is sufficient to saluation And Bellarm. in his 2. booke de iustificat and 5. chap. writeth thus Nihil frequentius omnis scriptura testatur quam Christi passionem mortem plenam atque perfectam satisfactionem fuisse pro peccatis The whole Scripture doth witnes nothing more often then that the suffering and death of Christ are a full and perfect satisfaction for our sinnes If man might satisfie for sinne he might be called a redeemer and a Sauiour which is horrible to heare of Neither doth this our doctrine robbe the poore of their almes children of their education and the sicke of their reliefe and maketh men vnwilling to doe any good at all The Doctor except he be blind may see that men build Colledges and hospitalls and relieue the poore though they doe it not to satisfie for their sinnes but his confession is to be accepted that faith their building and giuing of almes is to satisfie by which he disgraceth all their workes From satisfaction he commeth to freewill saying that their doctrine causeth the people to endeauour to doe good and flee from all euill the Protestant taking it away discourageth men vtterly from doing good workes for who will goe about a thing which is not in his power What could Pelagius haue said more M. Doctor is it in our power to doe good vnto saluation or no without grace answer directly Our Sauiour Christ saith Without me ye can doe nothing Augustine writeth lib. 1. Retract c. 15. that voluntas in tantum est libera in quantum est liberata our will is so farre free as it is freed To set downe our doctrine briefly We say with the same father 3. Hyp. esse fatemur liberum arbitrium omnibus hominibus non per quod sit idoneum qua ad Deum pertinent sine Deo aut inchoare aut certe peragere we confesse that all men haue freewill not that it is able either to beginne or to perfect those things which belong vnto God without God but onely in the works of this life whether they be good or euill To shut vp the matter doth Cyprian withdraw men from doing good when he saith Dei est omne quod possumus all is of God that we doe Now we must speake of the Masse the Catholike Romane religion teacheth the holy Masse to be a sacrifice in which the true bodie and blood of Christ is offered vp which maketh the people so deuout and reuerent I answer first what if the Priest haue no intent to consecrate what then is become of your sacrifice secondly we knowledge no bodily sacrifice for sinne but onely Christ on the crosse And that I make plaine by the Apostles reasons Where there is no remission of sinne there is no more offering for sinne Heb. 10. but by Christs passion there is perfect remission of sinnes ergo Againe Christ died but once ergo he offered himselfe but once Ireneus writeth thus Oportet not oblationem Deo facere we must offer to God Lib. 4. cap. 34. and in all things yeild thankes to the maker with a pure minde vnfained faith steadfast hope and feruent loue offering the first fruits of his creatures And this oblation the Church onely sacrificeth in puritie offering to God of his creatures with thanksgiuing Where is your sacrifice of the very bodie and blood of Christ if the Church sacrificed onely the sacrifice of thanksgiuing Not to heape other testimonies I pray you tell me M. Doctor resolutely and with infallible arguments in which part of the Masse this sacrifice consisteth Bellarmine is his 1. booke de Missa and 27. chap. maketh many propositions and faith some thinke thus and some thus it were therefore good for you to be certaine your selues before you obtrude this sacrifice vpon the people to stirre them to deuotion Now let euery man iudge of this your syllogisme They which teach holy doctrine are the true Church But the Papists teach holy doctrine ergo To make a briefe of that which hath beene handled he chargeth vs with vnholy doctrine because we approoue ministers marriage yet his owne man Panormitan doth the same Bell. lib. 1. de cler cap. 19. Againe he chargeth vs with vnholy doctrine because we allow marriage to the innocent partie after a iust diuorce yet his owne men teach at we teach Caietan and Catharin Thirdly he chargeth vs with the same crime because we teach that all magistrates lawes binde not the conscience yet his owne fellowe Gerson holdeth as we holde Fourthly
established Church bowe much more might it be suffered when as Ecclesia sit constituenda the church is to be constituted Thus hauing defended the calling of protestants let vs see what notes of hereticks and false prophets the scriptures giue Paul in the first of Tim. and 4. chap. giueth these notes of false Prophets to forbidde marriages and to command abstinence from meates Where are these to be found at this day in papists or protestants in protestāts no man will affirme The Manichees did not simply forbid marriage neither condemned they simply meats For Auditores qui appellantur apud Manichaeos carnibus vescuntur si voluerint vxores habent Their hearers did eate flesh and if they would had wiues It remaineth then that these notes be found in Papists Another note of false prophets is to draw men to the seruice of idols Deut. 13.2 Doth this agree any way to Protestants who abandō all monuments of Idolatrie to the Papists it agreeth because they teach that the very wood of the Crosse is to be worshipped with diuine honour Polidor Virgil. lib. 6. cap. 13. speaking of worshipping Saints images saith Haec pars pietatis parum differt ab impietate this pietie differeth little from impietie The third note of false teachers is to despise Dominion as Iude speaketh vers 8. doth not the Pope so who will not be subiect to the Emperour no not to a generall Councell as Witnesseth Eugenius who would not yeeld to the Councel of Basil Yea the papists suborne traytours to murder their lawfull Prince as their own writings prooue The booke I haue named before The fourth note of false Apostles is to teach iustification by the works of the lawe as it is manifest by the Epistle of Paul to the Galat. Doe we so or the papists neither can the papists answer that Paul excludeth the workes of nature onely and not of grace For Paul excludeth not onely the workes of nature but the workes of the ceremoniall and morall lawe as it is plaine For who can imagine that the Galathians beeing instructed in Christ would wholly exclude him from iustification and seeke for iustification either by the works of nature or by the ceremoniall law without Christ Fiftly the false Prophets speake visions of their own hearts Ierem. 23.16 so doe the papists deceiue people with lying visions doctrines of men as I haue proued They teach that the Pope cannot erre that he is aboue Councels where hath the Lord euer taught these things in his word Not to stād vpon any more notes of false Apostles Prophets I desire thee Christian Reader to iudge euen thine owne selfe whether the scripture hath not set downe these notes and whether they can any way agree to the Protestants or no. The 19. reason Lyars slaunderers and reuilers The Protestants are here charged either to haue no conscience at all or els if they haue any it is seared with an hotte iron because they are lyars slaunderers and reuilers Yea they make lying their helpe These M. Doctor are grieuous accusations but before I haue done with you I will turne them vpon your owne head it shall be manifest who are lyars and who haue no conscience whether Papists or Protestants I will first answer your lies which you heape vpon the Protestants The first lie is that Luther saith before his comming the Gospel lay in the dust and was hidden vnder the bench M. Doctor satin sanus es Are you sound to charge all Protestants with Luthers sayings shall one mans speech be the speech of all men apage istas nugas out vpon these follies Luther had this meaning that the Gospel lay in the dust from the time that Antichrist did sit in the temple of God vntil his time and yet it did not so lie in the dust but that many in those times renounced the Pope his speech is comparatiue in regard of the cleere knowledge that now is it lay in the dust Behold now what a lyar Luther is The second lie is this Protestants charge the Papists with Idolatrie yea they inculcate and dull the cares of the people with often telling them of the Idolatrie of their elders And why should we not doe so for proofe of this I will deale syllogistically They which offer sacrifices vnto Images are Idolaters But the papists offer sacrifices vnto Images ergo The proposition is playne because Sacrifice is due onely to God Exod. 22.20 The assumption is testified by Bellarmine lib. 1 de sanct Be◠cap. 13. We offer saith he sweete odours in the Church vnto Images Secondly they which put their hope in wood are Idolaters But the Papists put their hope in wood ergo The assumption is prooued by Aquinas 3. par quaest 15. art who saith that the Church praied to the very wood of the crosse thus O Crosse our only hope create iustice in the Godly giue pardon to the guiltie Thirdly they which dedicate Churches vnto Saints are Idolaters But Papists dedicate Churches to Saints ergo The proposition is plaine out of Augustine lib 1. Read Lud. Vi◠i◠9. lib. de ciuit cap. vlt. cont Maxim Arrian Episc cap. 11. where he prooueth that the holy Ghost is God becaue he hath a temple the assumption is plaine by Erasmus annotations who hath noted in the margent Hoc nunc fit quibuslibet Diuis This is now done to some Saints The Doctor himselfe in his 20. chapter confesseth that parish churches are dedicated vnto Saints When you haue answered these syllogismes M. Doctor you shall haue more proofes of your Idolatrie Bellarmine ingeniously confesseth that pictures of God are not deliuered to the people without daunger except they be instructed of their prelates but the world knoweth that in diuers places of Popery like Priest like People to haue bin and Priests haue bin very Idols themselues The third lie is that some protestants say that the Catholikes hould that Christ satisfied onely for originall sinnes and that hee ordained the Masse for other sinnes which to be a manifest lie all the bookes written of this matter by Catholike diuines doe plainly testifie M. Doctor for triall of this lie these are Canus his words concerning Catharine Amborsij Chatharini deliratio patet peccata ante Baptismum adonissa per crucis sacrificium remitti 433. post baptismum vero per sacrificium altaris The dotage of Ambrose Catharine is manifest that sinnes before baptisme are remitted by the sacrifice of the crosse but sinnes after baptisme by the sacrifice of the alter Marke M. Doctor that your own man Canus chargeth Catharine with dotage in that he held that sinnes onely committed before baptisme were remitted by the sacrifice of the crosse thus the lie is turned vpon your selfe Remember also that your schoolemen teach that Christ came principally to take away originall sin and so doth Bellarmine also lib. 4. de Rom. pont cap. 10. in fine The fourth lie is the protestants assime that the Catholikes