doe appeale to all here present whether this be not a meere wrangling shift to avoid disputation for the present And I doe here charge you if your owne conscience doth not inwardly tell you that either your Religion is so false that it cannot be defended or you your selfe so unlearned that you are unable to maintaine it that you doe without further delay agree to dispute with me vpon some maine points of controuersie betweene Protestants and Papists If you refuse I will tax you for a faint hearted coward and dastard and so esteeme you hereafter at all times Mr. Fisher. But if I yeeld to dispute with you who shall be Iudge betweene us Mr. Walker The chiefe judge of all shall be the word of God and these hearers shall judge of the forme and cariage of our disputation and to whom the victory doth belong Mr. Fisher. They know not the word of God neither can you your selfe certainly tell which is the true word of God M. Walker Yes I haue it here at hand to shew and taking out of his pocket Plantines Hebrew Bible in octauo without pricks bound with a Syriacke and Greeke Testament Loe saith he here is the true word of God even the whole Scriptures of the old and new Testament in the originall tongues wherein they were first spoken by the spirit of God and written by his penmen Mr. Fisher. How doe you know that this booke is the word of God and the originall Scriptures Mr. Walker I know that all not only Protestants but Papists acknowledge and confesse it so to be First Papists because Arias Montanus a great learned Doctor of the Church of Rome did set it forth and Plantine a Catholike Printer did print it and that at the charges of Philip the second your great Catholike King of Spaine so that you being a Romane Catholike cannot except you have cast off all shamefastnesse but acknowledge it for the word of God in the originall tongues Secondly we Protestants are so confident of the infallible truth of the word contained in this booke that we altogether build our faith and religion upon it Mr. Fisher. How doe you know that Plantine printed this booke Mr. Walker Loe here the title page where it is testified to be printed by him at Antwerp and the yeere of the world according to the lesse account of the Iewish Rabbins is here specified with these words he shewed the book and page to Fisher who discerning it to be printed in such a Character as he could not reade put it from him as if he had beene afraid to looke on it Whereupon Master Walker began to play upon him and taking advantage of his ignorance made the company some sport saying What Master Fisher are you a learned Iesuit and one of the Popes great champions and yet can you not reade this faire print I cry you mercy Graecum est non potest legi yea it is worse than so it is Hebrew printed in Hebrew words and letters which to the common sort of Popish Priests is more terrible and dreadfull than conjuring figures But in good sadnesse can you not reade it or doe you but dissemble Master Fisher I am afraid by your gestures that you are in earnest and your countenance doth make me so confident of your ignorance that I will adventure my booke upon it and though I will not otherwise take twenty shillings for it yet I here before all this company promise to give it you for your paines if you can but reade one sentence in it out of the originall text Which offer when Fisher refused some of the standers by laughed at him others wondred whether this were Fisher the Iesuit and made a question of it Master Burton who had promised silence observing the Iesuits folly by this behaviour and other idle speeches told him that he must give him leave to laugh and not be offended for he had by his promise at the beginning bound himselfe from speaking but not from laughing Mr. Fisher. The Iesuit plunged into this perplexitie thought it best to be gone and said that his businesse called him away he could stay no longer Mr. Walker Mr. Walker answered that this was an idle excuse For saith he you know Master Fisher that this day and houre was appointed by your selfe and set apart for disputation and though my businesse was great I was forced to lay all aside for this worke because no other day nor time would be accepted Therefore it is very unlikely that any businesse should now call you away or that you should appoint this time for any other imployment except you came either in hope to finde no adversarie which durst encounter you or with purpose if any appeared to shift off disputation by some such device By these and such speeches as also by the importunitie of the standers-by the Iesuit was detained and falling into the question about the infallible word of God after many speeches which passed to and fro about the originall Scriptures and the translations which was most authenticall and which translations the best and most uncorrupt and free from grosse errors Master Walker to cut off all needlesse discourse about such questions did very earnestly demand of the Iesuit whether he thought the vulgar Latine translation of the Bible to be the most pure uncorrupt and authenticall edition of the Scriptures and the true word of God according to the determination of the Councell of Trent Mr. Fisher. Fisher answered that he held it to be the uncorrupt word of God and the most authentike edition of the Scriptures Mr. Walker And though I doe much dissent from you in this opinion saith Master Walker and doe hold that of all translations which are of any esteeme among Christians there is none so full of errors and mistakings even in the judgement of S. Hierome himselfe upon whom the Papists falsly father it yet so far I doe approve of it that I doe not doubt but any learned Divine may easily gather teach and confirme out of it all doctrines which are necessarie to salvation For whatsoever necessarie truth is omitted in one place by mis-translatiō it is plainly expressed in some other places of the same which are truly and faithfully translated And here I doe make a faire offer and most equall motion to you before all here present viz. That I will undertake to make a plaine confession of the Protestants faith and of all the articles of religion which the Church of England holds necessarie to salvation in the very words and sentences of the vulgar Latine Bible without any materiall alteration at all upon condition that you when I have made good my word and promise will grant and acknowledge that the confession so made is a true confession of the true Christian faith and that all such articles are to be received and embraced for articles of the true religion Mr. Fisher. This offer when the Iesuit refused to accept he was much condemned
censured and reproved by the hearers Wherefore to avoid all further urging in this point and for the escaping of more reproofe and censure he flies backe to the generall question concerning the word of God and taking a paper wrote downe his assent That the word of God comprehends in it 1. The Scriptures 2. Whatsoever by good consequence is gathered from the holy Scriptures And withall he wrote downe this question viz. who must be the Iudge when the Scriptures are doubtfull and when the question is of the goodnesse of the consequence And withall he professed that for his part he held the Church to be the Iudge and that when the Church hath iudged no private man must oppose Mr. Walker Mr. Walker on the other side professed that for the goodnesse of the consequence Logicians must judge by reason and the rules of Logicke And for the sense and meaning of the doubtfull places the Scripture is the best expositor of it selfe and the plaine places of it doe give light to the places which are obscure and doe best expound them And therefore every private person and the whole Church it selfe in matters doubtfull must flie to the Scriptures themselves as the last Iudge of controversies in matters of faith and salvation And here he asked Master Fisher if he durst in this controversie stand to the judgement of the ancient Fathers such as S. Augustine Chrysostome and others of that ranke Mr. Fisher. The Iesuit answered that he knew the Fathers were on his side and did altogether flie to the iudgement of the Church in matters of faith when any controversie did arise Mr. Walker That said Master Walker is most untrue the cōtrary shall be shewed presently out of their owne writings set forth and printed by Papists then calling for two volumes the one of S. Chrysostome upon Matthew the other S. Austens third Tome both printed and set forth by Papists as the inscription did shew and Fisher could not denie First he turnes to the Homilie of Chrysostome upon these words of the Gospel Math. 24. When you see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place then let him that is in Iudea flie to the mountaines and shewes the Authors exposition which was to this effect That when Antichrist rules and beares sway in the holy place the Church then all professors of Christian religion who are in the true Iudaea that is Christianitie must flie only to the Scriptures for they are the mountaines upon which the Church is founded according to that saying of David Her foundations are upon the holy mountains Psal. 87. 1. And in those daies when Antichrist sits and succeeds in the Sea of holy Bishops and over-rules all workes miracles and makes great shew of godlinesse in hypocrisie then the Church cannot be knowne by succession of Pastors nor by the miracles and holy life of teachers as in former ages but only by the Scriptures Mr. Fisher. The answer which the Iesuit gave to this testimonie was that this could not be proved to be the worke of Chrysostome Mr. Walker More shame said Master Walker it is to your Doctors and Printers who cite places out of this booke under the name of Chrysostome and doe print and set it forth in his name but suppose it be not the worke of Chrysostome yet you cannot denie it to be the worke of an ancient writer of great antiquitie and therefore it makes much against you being approved in the Church so many ages Neither shall you so escape For loe here in the third booke of S. Augustine De doctrinâ Christianâ which was never questioned but is generally received and acknowledged by all it is most plainly taught by the learned Father That the best way of expounding the Scriptures is in words which have many significations to observe the scope and circumstances of the place and thereby to expound them and to expound obscure places by comparing them with other plaine places of the Scriptures which speake of the same matter and subject Then hee shewed the words to Fisher and read them in Latine to him who could not deny them but heard them read with much impatiencie as his gestures shewed but when he began to expound them in English to the people there present the Iesuit could not containe himselfe but said Away this is nothing to the purpose we will examine these things some other time And when words would not prevaile hee reacheth with his hands to the booke and did strive to shut it that the words might not bee read notwithstanding Master Walker held it by strong hand and read the words which when the people present did heare and see they confessed that Fisher was openly convinced some of them told him that his owne conscience did witnesse against him and all condemned his impudencie joined with most intolerable and desperate obstinacie The Iesuit thus condemned on all sides and not able to outface the matter any longer did make shew as if he stood vpon coales and would gladly be gone and his Disciple who brought him thither being ready to helpe him at a dead lift when hee saw him so confounded calls vpon him to remember the place which they were to goe unto whereupon they made haste to depart but by much importunitie were staied and Master Walker still urging him to propound and prosecute one argument upon any question of controversie before they parted he answered that now there was no time but promised to dispute at some other time At length out of an earnest desire to draw one argument from the Iesuit he offered to him this advantage That if for the iustifying of any point or article of the Romish religion hee would make a perfect syllogisme in moode and figure and presently upon the deniall of any of the premises second it with a prosyllogisme not failing in forme to prove and conclude the proposition denied the point or article so farre proved should for this one time bee yeelded to him and he should haue libertie to make his best advantage of it for the justifying of any other point of Poperie which hee would presently dispute upon But all this could not prevaile to wring one syllogisme from him which made the hearers thinke that hee had no art nor skill to make an argument And that they did not thinke amisse nor erre in their opinion appeared by that which followed for although hee durst not undertake during the time of the conference to make one syllogisme or to propound an argument in forme yet at the breaking up when hee was ready to depart he tooke his paper and wrote downe and gave to Master Walker desiring him to answer at leasure this argument which followeth and which is yet to be shewed under his owne hand though perhaps to men of judgement it may seeme incredible that any Priest or Iesuit of his name and note should be so absurd as to propound for a syllogisme such a confused speech without forme
of truth Who at length for my humilitie and the sinceritie of my heart did grant my request and did draw me unto the Catholike Church where I found the truth and a sure ground to rest upon from which I purpose never to be moved but will hold me to it for ever Mr. Burton Mr. Burton grieved to heare the Iesuit boasting after such a Pharisaicall manner could not refraine but taxed him of pride and hypocrisie for ascribing his calling and his knowledge of the truth and of true religion as he termed it to the merit of his owne humilitie sinceritie and his praiers which he made before his conversion while he remained in ignorance Mr. Walker Mr. Walker also taking hold of his speech desired to ground a disputation upon his words and offered to prove that the Iesuit did erre most damnably and heretically in the first grounds of his faith and religion in that he builded his first calling upon the merit of his owne vertues and of his works which he performed before his calling in the state of ignorance and blindnesse He also taxed him of manifest absurditie and contradiction in his speech in that he first so farre vilified and condemned the Protestant state and counted it so sinfull and damnable that he asked forgivenesse of God for his once being a Protestant and yet immediatly did attribute his conversion and calling into the Catholike Church unto the merit of works which in that state he performed Moreover he charged him with extreame folly and madnesse for abandoning and forsaking that Church state wherein by his owne confession he did performe works meritorious and betaking himselfe to the service and slaverie of the Church of Rome that whore of Babylon the reward and just wages of whose servants and followers is shewed in Gods word Revel 19. to be the wrath of God and eternall vengeance in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone for evermore For answer to these obiections the Iesuit complained that it was uneqvall for two to set against one both at once And Master Burton desiring to bee excused for that he could not but out of his zeale reprove his palpable boasting of his owne merits promised to be silent hereafter if he would fall to disputation with Master Walker Then the Iesuit proceeded and spake to this effect Mr. Fisher. The Church of Rome of which I am a member is the onely true Catholike Church for it holdeth the same truth which Christ and his Apostles commended to it and hath not altered nor erred in any maine point but holds the same still which all true Catholike and Orthodox Fathers and Doctors did teach as here is manifestly shewed and proved in this booke by Gualtherius meaning Gualtherius his Chronographica sacra which there hee had brought and laid before him on the table who doth produce plaine testimonies of the Fathers in all ages from the time of Christ confirming the maine points of the Roman Catholike religion wherein Protestants dissent from Catholikes I doe challenge you to shew the like evidences for the Religion and doctrine which your Church doth hold which because you cannot doe it is manifest that you have not the truth neither are a true Church Mr. Walker Well Master Fisher if this be the best ground which you have to build vpon wee shall easily answer you and make it appeare that you are not the man which flying fame reports you to be and that you build on a sandie foundation I did expect some grounds and arguments gathered out of the sacred Scriptures and hewed out of the rocke of Gods word by the hand and art of some deeply learned Divine but I perceive that the best testimonie which you have to alleage for your Religion is that booke composed by one of your owne side and all you can say for your selfe is as the old Proverbe runnes Aske my fellow theese if I be a true man which you know it stands him upon to affirme whether true or false As for â—â—â—â—â—rius hee is as bold impudent and shamelesse a Paâ—â—st as needs put pen to paper For those testimoniâ—s of forged Fathers and of old Liturgies which all the learned of your Religion who have any wit learning or dram of modestie appearing in them have reiected he doth boldly and familiarly cite and produce for proofes without any shame or blushing If I should for our Religion cite and produce a booke of Luther or Calvin or any other Protestant you would laugh mee to scorne yea you reiect the bookes of the Fathers printed or set forth among us though you could never iustly tax or convince any one of us of partiall dealing or of the least wilfull falsification Let mee further admonish you that you shew little discretion in bringing humane testimonies especially of late writers to maintaine your Religion against me or to confute my Religion For I am as you know a Preacher of the Gospell one of them whom yee call Protestants and wee doe not build upon any but the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles Christ himselfe being the head corner stone We doe not regard in a controverted point of faith what any Father or Doctor doth hold or hath held in former ages but what Christ and his Prophets and Apostles haue left recorded in the infallible Scriptures of the old and new Testament and what the Fathers haue truly from thence observed We use the learned who have gone before us as helps and guides in places of Scripture and opinions which are doubtfull but wee doe as they desired denie their testimonies to bee grounds of faith Wherefore let us leave off all superfluous and idle allegations and discourses and let us come to a strict forme of disputation about some maine points of controversie If you be pleased to oppose any speciall article of our faith I will defend it or if you will take upon you to answer I will prove against you That your father the Pope is Antichrist That the Church of Rome is the whore of Babylon That your doctrine of merit of iustification before God by your owne workes is hereticall And that your Image-worship is damnable idolatrie Mr. Fisher. If you bee so forward to dispute I am for you and I come for that purpose But have you no other points to prove saue these That the Pope is Antichrist and the Church of Rome the whore of Babylon I remember that you urged me to dispute upon these above three yeeres agoe when you came to me in the New-prison belike you spend all your time and studie in these questions Mr. Walker It is true that I desired to dispute upon these questions foure yeeres agoe and then you refused I hope you have since studied how to defend them though then you were unprovided Indeed I doe offer these questions first of all to every Priest and Iesuit with whom I meet because the proving of any one of them doth at one blow overthrow all Poperie but you
are and have beene censured for Apocrypha and so you are in this more private in your opinion than we Secondly we Protestants build upon no other rock but that which is common to all the faithfull from the beginning even God himselfe who is prima veritas the first truth and upon his word of promise made in Christ the promised seed and we are founded on the Prophets and Apostles who are the common foundation both to all the fathers in the old Testament and to all Christians in the time of the Gospell But you build upon a new rocke even the Pope of Rome whom yee call the universall Bishop sitting in Peters chaire a foundation which all the faithfull forefathers before the comming of Christ were ignorant of and never heard or dreamed Neither did the first Christians in the primitive Church for divers hundred of yeeres after Christ acknowledge any such name or title but even Gregorie the Great a Bishop of Rome who lived 560. yeeres after Christ condemned it as a note of Antichrist and his forerunner as by his epistles is manifest Thirdly though divers sects of Anabaptists Familists and Enthusiasts men of fanaticall spirits have growne up like tares in the field of the reformed Churches who follow their owne private fancies imaginations and divers inspirations of Satan which have no warrant from the Scriptures but are contrary to the written word yet they are not of us we renounce their society and expell them out of our Churches and say of them as the Apostle did 1 Ioh. 2. 19. They went out from us but they were not of us And as for the interpretations of some obscure Scriptures which Luther Calvin and other learned men have lately found out and doe finde out daily which were not knowne of old nor commonly received we embrace them not for novelty nor because they are singular nor for the authoritie of the expositors themselves but because we finde them to be agreeable to the originall text and to other plaine places of the same Scriptures and to containe the old and common doctrine of Christ and his Apostles and Prophets which hath beene beleeved and embraced in all ages of all true Christians But a great number of the articles of the Romish religion concerning Image-worship Canonization of Saints Purgatorie Pardons Indulgences Transubstantiation Massing sacrificing for the dead and such like they are builded vpon private visions apparitions dreames imaginations and fancies of Friers and upon singular inspirations of Monks and other doating persons slavishly devoted to your superstitions so that the Popish spirit is indeed the same with the private fanaticall spirit of Anabaptists and Enthusiasts as plaine reason and experience doe shew Mr. Fisher. The Iesuit taking little pleasure in the hearing of these things made great shew of a desire to breake off and to be gone onely he put on a bold and impudent face to deride the opinion of Protestants concerning the gift of the spirit by which particular Christians are enabled to know and beleeve the Scriptures and to be fully perswaded and assured of the truth and true meaning of them And as for you saith he to Master Walker it is well for you that you have such an infallible spirit which doth enable you to discerne the word of God and doth more assure you of the truth thereof than the publike testimonie of the Church But pardon us if we hold it doubtfull seeing we have no more but your owne word for it Mr. Walker Yea and I will have your word professing the same of your selfe also or else I will make you appeare to all here present to be void of all true Christianitie First you shall see that all your scoffs shall not make me ashamed to professe and to proclaime the grace and gift which God hath given me for the knowledge of his word and how I come to know it by the worke of his spirit Secondly I will urge you upon your conscience to answer me whether you have experience and feeling of the same grace in you That which I can with a good conscience testifie of my selfe I hold to be no singular gift but a grace common to all true Christians and it is this First I confesse that I was borne of Christian parents and my father and mother who tenderly loved me and were also of me dearely beloved did teach me the first principles of religion from my infancie and did tell me that the holy Scriptures contained in that Bible which was read and expounded in our Church were the true word of God I being not able to judge of it my selfe beleeved it so to be upon their word and authoritie for the reverent respect and esteeme which I had of them Afterwards they caused me to frequent the Church and to heare that word read and expounded by learned Preachers and told me that I ought to beleeve what I heard out of it preached in the Church and so I did for I beleeved the Preachers publishing that word in so much that partly by their exhortations and partly out of a care which I had of my soules health and in a desire of Gods favour and blessings which were thereunto promised I did even from my youth give my minde to reade and learne the Scriptures Howsoever I must confesse that at the first and in my childish yeeres I did finde but little savour sweetnesse in the most profitable parts of the Scriptures such as Davids Psalmes Salomons Proverbs the bookes of the Prophets the Epistles of the Apostles and such like yea though I beleeved that they were Gods word yet by reason of my naturall corruption I did take more pleasure and delight in Poeticall fables and feigned histories which did feed my corruption and were a kinde of fuell to my sinfull lusts and vanities Neverthelesse whether it was mine owne conscience urging me or the spirit of God which moved me I cannot certainly tell but sure I am that still I did upon the testimonie and authoritie of my Parents and Teachers reverence the Scriptures as Gods word and force my selfe to reade them contrary to my rebellious nature and at length when I came to more ripe yeeres I found that the word which was most opposite and distastfull to my sinfuâ—l corruption did worke upon me most strongly and effectually which is an infallible token of Gods hand in it and a sure signe of the divine power and supernaturall excellencie thereof I felt the promises of the Gospell and the words of the Prophets and Apostles which before had little relish begin by Gods grace to be most sweet and comfortable in all crosses and afflictions and to be most profitable by strengthning me with the spirit of prayer and faith against temptations by mortifying my fleshly corruptions and by reforming my life so that I began to rejoyce in the Scriptures more than in any earthly treasures and did devote my selfe to the studie of them and now partly upon the