2. vnder the name of Oyntment and in many other places Obiection The places heere-aboue alledged make nothing to prooue that the Spirite was promised to all to iudge of the doctrine otherwise euen women and all faithfull Artificers should iudge of the doctrine as the Prophets and Apostles To the contrary whereof Saint Paul sayeth Nunquid omnes Prophetae c. Are all Prophets hee putteth downe expresly that the discerning of Spirites is to haue vnderstanding of the Scriptures and are gifts which are not common to all the faithfull but particular to some Answere The consequence which the Doctors gather is nothing worth forasmuch as the Spirit of God is more abundantly oft times comunicated to some then to others And some also are better exercised in the Scripture then others Touching the place of Saint Paul 1. Cor. 12. the Ministers say It maketh nothing against them forasmuch as the Spirit of prophecâ—e and the spirit of discretion are different gifts as it appeareth by the declaration which the Apostle maketh in the same Chapter The second dayes Dispute beeing Wednesday the tenth of Iuly THE Doctors required that their protestations the day before made might be registred which was such That they protested they would not enter into any Dispute of things receiued in the vniuersall Church from the Apostles time hitherto decided and determined by holy Eâ—umenicall and generall Councells holding them for certaine and indubitable and that all doctrine to the contrary was false But following the good and holy desire of the Lorde Montpensier and Madam de Buillon his daughter they were ready to make knowne by the verey exâ—resse word of God interpreted by the sayd vniuersall Church and Councells that their doctrine wherein the sayd Ladie was formerly instructed is sound and wholesome And that the instruction which hath beene giuen her to the contrarie is perniâ—ious and damnable And that this Conference is by way of instruction and not of Dispute The Ministers likewise protested that they assembled not with the Doctors for any doubt they had that whatsoeuer is conteined in their confessioÌ„ of faith is not certain and true and founded vpon the word of God as appeareth by the places of scripture quoted in the margeant of the said confession And doo beleeue that whatsoeuer is contrarie and opposite therevnto is damnable and to be reiected yea though an Angell from heauen should propose it And as touching themselues they were not come thither to be instructed in other doctrine then such as they follow and haue learned of Iesus Christ whom they acknowledge to be the onely maister and instructor of the Church It was declared by my Lord of Neuers that he desired after the obiections and answeres there should bee giuen a short resolution both of the one side and the other of that was conferred of the day before Following which remonstrance the Doctors say that to iudge of a booke whether it be the writing of holy scripture or not and likewise to discerne a booke Canonicall from one Apocrypha or Ecclesiasticall a man must not rest on his owne priuate opinion or priuate and particular inspiration for as much as none haue ordinarie assurance that it is a true reuelation of the holy Ghost without reducing himselfe to the common consent and agreement of the Church vniuersall And also that God albeit hee had power to reueale and imprint in each one the true knowledge necessarie to saluation yet hath he ordained a certaine meane whereby faith is obtained which is a reuealed truth that is to say by hearing of the word of God preached by lawfull Ministers sent by the Pastors of the true Church as by the text of Saint Paul to the Rom. 10. and Ephes 4. appeareth If then the meane to haue faith and inward reuelation of the knowledge of saluation bee by the hearing of the word of God lawfully preached by the Ministers of the same according to the ordinary meane to be assured that a man hath inward reuelation It behoueth necessarily to bee assured that the word by which faith is obtained hath bene preached by the lawfull Ministers of the true Church And by consequence to be first assured of the church before his own inward reuelation following the meane which Iesus Christ hath followed They say further that the true and certaine marke of a true inward reuelation is when as it is reduced to the common consent of the Church And contrariwise that euery pretended inward inspiration particular and priuate is a false perswasion if it bee different from the common consent of the Church For the spirite of God is not particular but common And say moreouer that to finde out a false doctrine it behoueth to examine the same to knowe whether it bee priuate or common euen as our Lord hath giuen the true marke in Saint Iohn 8. saying Qui de se loquitur mendacium loquitur Hee that saieth any thing of himselfe and of his owne proper inspiration is a lyer And likewise as it is written in Ezechiel Sonne of man prophesie against the Prophets of Israel that prophesie and say vnto them that prophesie out of their owne heart heare the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God Woe to the foolish Prophets which follow their owne spirit and haue seene nothing And afterward they haue seene vanitie and lying diuination saying The Lord saieth it and the Lord hath not sent them and they haue made others to hope that they would confirme the word of their prophesie And the verses following doo serue to the purpose Which false Prophets said they had an inward reuelation and the word of God They say also and let it be well wayed that the proppe of Religion grounded and assured vpon an inward inspiration is the foundation of many Sects in our time as of Anabaptists and Suencfildians who stay their doctrines vpon priuate reuelations and alledge the same texts to serue them for foundation of their doctrine which the Ministers yesterday alledged that is to say Ieremy in the third Chapter and Ioel. 2. and Saint Paul 1. Cor. 2. which Brentius and Bucer considering haue confessed that by the onely tradition of the Church wee are acertained of the bookes of the holy scripture in following the doctrine of the auncient Fathers as Saint Ierome who confesseth hee receiued by the tradition of the Church and by the same did knowe that there bee foure Gospels As much thereof saith Origen recyting the Canonicall bookes of the new Testament saying I haue learned by tradition that there bee foure Gospels And you shall not finde any auncient Catholicke which hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of bookes vpon his onely priuate and particular inspiration And Saint Augustine Liber Confess cap. 25. vseth these wordes Veritas tua domine non mea nec illius aut illius sed omnium nostrum quos ad communionem aduocas terribiliter admonens ne priuatam veritatem habeamus ne priuemur
difference betweene both parties touching the distinction of the bookes Canonicall and Apocrypha Obiection Although the Ministers doo affirme that they build their Religion vpon the word of God yet build they Gods word vpon their inward reuelation So that such a reuelation is the foundation of the Word and consequently of their religion For they receiue not for the word of God but that which they thinke to bee particularly reuealed to them Touching the other Article wherein they finde fault that the Doctors haue said that faith is obtained by hearing of the word of God it seemeth they will stay vpon small things because they will not goe to the principall And where they say that faith is the gift of God and therefore is not gotten it is too plaine by manifold texts of Scripture that one selfe-same thing to be giuen and obtained is not repugnant As the kingdome of heauen which is giuen to the blessed and notwithstanding men obtaine it by true faith working by charitie And the scripture it selfe dooth call it a reward and recompence of good workes And Saint Paul saith that by liberalitie and almesdeeds the grace of God is gained Yea that which Saint Paul saith Fides ex auditu Faith commeth by hearing cannot otherwise be vnderstood but that faith commeth by hearing the word of God which is the obtaining thereof by the meane of hearing the word preached although it be a gift of God The like subtiltie they vse willing to reproue that which hath bene spoken that faith is the truth reuealed as putting great difference betweene the truth reuealed and the reuelation of truth Meet it were that the subtiltie were vaileable against S. Paul who saith Panis quem frangimus nonne communicatio corporis Domini est The bread which wee breake is it not the communion of the body of the Lord Which is as much to say as Panis fractio nonne c. The breaking of the bread is it not c. And therefore to speake properly it behoueth that the text of S. Paul bee subiect to such reprehensions And as touching this article that they may not enter thereinto albeit the Ministers do reply the Doctors will say no more of it as beeing a thing too much impertinent For in the end should we speake of Merit and from that matter fall into an other It troubleth them to deale with the vocation of lawfull Ministers of the Church and to eschew that matter would not alledge what they might without straying that first before we receiue their doctrine it was meete to examine whether they were Ministers lawfully sent from the true Church to preach the word of God and in their preachings to be heard of the people according to the text of S. Paul aboue alledged Which thing had they of the new Religion well considered a very sufficient argument should they haue had for not receiuing of their doctrine because it is more cleare then the day that they be not Ministers sent by the Pastors of the Church but thrust in themselues to preach vnable to shewe any signe of their calling from men and much lesse from God And were it lawfull for euery one to preach the word which saith he is sent there would be infinite Sects as we see at this time haue happened And they say no more of this matter for feare to aggrauate these things any further Touching the Article where mention is made how a man may knowe that a reuelation is of Ood where it is said by the Ministers that men should rather know it by the word then by the consent of many that maketh nothing to the purpose of the Doctors For the question is how a man should iudge a booke to containe the word of God and not to iudge of the doctrine by the word alreadie receiued The Doctors would willingly desire and doo pray the Ministers to answere directly to the very point Touching that they haue saide Of the consent of many The Doctors said not so but spake of the consent of the Church which is also as infallible as the word of God For as it is certaine that the holy Ghost is author of the Word so also is it certaine that hee is the soule of the Church by whose conduct she can neuer erre witnesse S. Paul who calleth her Columnam firmamentum veritatis The ground and pillar of truth But they will not enter into this question whether the multitude of the Church may erre or not Neuerthelesse it will not be found â—ithens the Church was planted after the death of Iesus Christ that shee hath bene of lesse number then the Sects of heretikes And that alledged of Constance and of the time of the olde Testament seruâ—th nothing to that purpose for there is great difference betweene the Synagogue of the Iewes and the Church which is the congregation of all Nations beleeuing in Iesus Christ and which cannot be or consist but in a most great multitude otherwise the promises made to the Church of the Gentiles should be vaine for it is said to Abraham that his â—eed this must not bee vnderstood of the carnall should be multiplied as the starres of heauen and the sand of the sea Concerning the Article which beginneth Touching the Prophets c. The Doctors do say that they confesse there is great difference betweene phantasticall imaginations and the reuelation of the holy Ghost but the Ministers doo not answere how they would proue their particular perswasions to be reuelations rather then the vaine and foolish imaginations of the Prophets which Ezechiel spake of The which notwithstanding they called inspirations and what they said and preached they called also the Word of God Concerning the Article which beginneth Touching the Anabaptists c. The Doctors say that to one selfe-same end doo the Ministers and Anabaptists wholly produce the selfe-same places of which mention is made that is to say to stay and assure their doctrine to be of God because therof they haue particular reuelation as God hath promised them by the Prophets And for this selfe-same cause haue the Ministers produced the said testimonies of the scripture to proue that euery faithfull man may indge by his particular inspiration if a booke do containe the word of God and distinguish a booke Canonicall from Apocrypha to iudge and discerne the true doctrine from the false which is the selfe-same foundation of the Anabaptists and other heretikes To that Article which beginneth touching that which is produced of Brentius c. The Doctors say that the Ministers haue not well conceiued their meaning For they bring not the saying of Brentius and Bucer but onely because they say that they know the Canonicall bookes of the holy Scripture by the tradition of the Church and not by particular inspiration as the Ministers Touching the Article following the Doctors say there was a time when some made doubt of certaine bookes of the Scripture as of the Apocalips the Canonicall
Epistle of S. Iohn and others But in time the Church guided by the holy Ghost with common consent receiued indifferently for Canonicall all the bookes that bee in the Bible which consent continued by so many hundred yeares hath more authoritie then the sayings of one or two the which neuerthelesse spake not but of their owne time And further there is no comparison betweene the sayings of one or two particular men the determinations of Councels and consent of the Church as hath already beene sayd And it will be found that S. Ierom hath approoued these bookes as Canonicall And for the same will referre themselues to the Prologue which hee made vpon the bookes of the Macabees where he saith Touching the Hebrewes they are not Canonicall histories of the Church or other wordes to the like effect For the Councell of Laodicia they referre them to that which is contained therein It may bee they are deceiued in cyting one Councell for another For the Article beginning Touching the experience c. Although it be a question of fact yet it ceaseth not to be much auailable And if it be found as the Doctors haue proposed of which they doubt nothing the foundation of their particular reuelation is ouerthrowne Touching the Ministers conclusion the Doctors doo shew that they haue oft times complained they fell into by-matters They referre themselues to the iudgement of all men that their last resolution was deducted all of one thread continuing without straying in the same matter In which albeit they had found something wherein difficultie had beene had the Ministers so much desired to proceed to the conference of the chiefe pointes they might briefely haue admonished them of the said difficultie The Doctors vpon these articles had verily said something but to hasten the busines for the which they bee called they do forbeare to multiply words Where the Ministers shew that they receiue the 24. bookes of the old Testament with all the bookes of the Newe The Doctors say that that is not the point For all the conference they haue made hitherto that is to say by what rules men might discerne some bookes from other some and iudge whether they were of the Scripture or not was to raunge them in this point that they receiued them by the tradition of the Church which is iudge of the number of the bookes and by the same meanes when the question should bee of the vnderstanding of the word of God euen in the conference of the places of the same Scripture the Ministers and Doctors should haue such reuerence to the Catholique Church that she should be of both parts accepted for iudge of the vnderstanding of the Scripture which they acknowledg to haue receiued of the same wherof she is an infallible iudge and more certaine then the one or the other And notwithstanding the Doctors doo make offer to the Ministers that they will not vse at this time against them but those bookes onely which they receiue for Canonicall But when they shall fall into difficultie of the interpretation of some text or of the conference of many the Doctors esteeme it more reasonable to haue recourse to the Catholique Church and to the auncient Fathers then to their proper sence or that of the Ministers Answere For conclusion the Ministers do accept of the offer made them by the Doctors to decyde the pointes and articles of their Confession by the bookes Canonicall whereof they are agreed that is to say the 24. bookes of the Hebrewes and all the bookes of the new Testament protesting neuerthelesse that in the last writtings proposed by the Doctors there bee many things which they no wayes approoue and doo hope to confute as occasions shall bee offered and would presently haue done it had it not beene that they will shew against that imputed to them by the Doctors that they will not stray nor any way retyre from the conference of the points of their Confession Reply The Doctors reciprocally do agree to the Ministers in the said offer with this moderation to ad the authoritie of the vniuersall Church and the auncient Doctors for the interpretation and vnderstanding of the holy Scripture when they cannot agree The third dayes Dispute on Thursday the eleuenth of Iuly THE Ministers haue shewed what are the protestations which the Doctors haue made not for other ende to appeare in this Conference but to satisfie Madam de Buillon and not to bee instructed and otherwise informed of the pointes of Religion then they be And those which the Ministers haue on their part made also not to conferre with them for any doubt they haue of the pointes of their Confession whereof they bee wholely resolued By reason of which protestations they haue required that the first point whereof they shall conferre may bee that which Madam de Buillon hath publiquely required to bee decyded that is of the Supper and of the Masse that they may bee discharged of that also which hath beene imputed vnto them by the Doctors that they wandered and would not come to the principall point which is that aforesaid of the Masse but cōtrariwise that they fled away drew backe from the conference Finally that it may bee knowne who doo flye the decyding thereof They offer after they haue cleared that point to conferre with them if they please of all the other points which be in controuersie as leisure and time shall therfore be granted And doo also require to avoyd all confusion and such as happened in the Conference the day before that the Doctors may propose their arguments particularly each one apart and that the answers also may bee made vnto them particularly by the Ministers Ir els if they will propose all their arguments and reasons together that one whole day may bee graunted vnto them wherein they may doo that without any interruption conditionally that the Ministers may haue the day following to answere by order to all their arguments The Doctors say by that which is aboue written in the behalfe of the Ministers That it is easie to know they haue alwayes recoyled and yet do recoyle from conference of the things which they haue put in controuersie and they are maruellously abashed that they will not now permit the articles of their confession to be examined by order as the day of the first Conference they had required my Lord of Neuers my Lord and Lady of Buillion and other Lords and Gentlemen being present in presenting their said confessions contained in a little guilded booke making offer to the Doctors to examine them in order if they pleased which they found very reasonable And indeed the Ministers themselues hauing demanded of the Doctors whereof they would intreate departed yesterday contented to begin this day to examine the Articles of the Creed And as touching their speeche of the protestation that the assembly was made for the instruction of my Lady who desireth as they say in her absence to bee
shuld make a long and vnprofitable aboad at Paris not hauing wherewithall to imploy theyr time Considering they were not there but by accident to wit that de Spina was come thither to passe further and make a voyage into Aniou and the other who was Minister of the Church of Orleance was lately come forth of prison where he had beene brought in the Moneth of Iune next precedent vpon a false accusation suborned against him by the enemies of Gods Church which charged him to be author of a pernicious and wicked booke written against the obedience due to Kings and Princes Therefore was it very hurtfull for him to soâ—ournâ— so long a time in a Citie whither hee came against his lyking For these causes they purposed to returne towards my Lord of Neuers to shew vnto him the things aforesaid and tell him that De Sainctes who might haue stayed and ioyned some other with him in the stead of Vigor was departed thence without making it knowne when his returne would be that it was not reason they should stay there being incertaine of that which they had to doo and considering that their Churches had need of them to execute therin their charges and that they desired the same Notwithstanding in the end they found it better to suffer an inconuenience and to abide there vntill my Lord of Neuers departed from Paris as in the end of the Moneth of August he should goe to his owne land called Coâ—lomiers For seeing the Doctors were then absent the Lord of Neuers being departed the Ministers could doo nothing not hauing whom to write vnto nor with whom to conferre These remonstances being liked by the said Lord hee gaue them leaue to depart by writing signed Lodouico de Gonzague and below Varin Secretarie Dated 26. of August wherein were declared the occasions here before touched and remoÌ„strance of the Ministers with promise made by the said Lord to cause the answeres which the Doctors would make to be brought vnto them And that by the meane of Monsieur de Buci S. George who was charged with this businesse Also the Ministers promised to be readie were it to returne to Paris or else to answere from the place where they should be as often as the Doctors should write These things thus done and passed the Ministers returned presently after supposing to haue some speedie newes from the Doctors But they haue attended and yet do attend without that there hath bene any appearance thereof And they vnderstood nothing of that matter sauing that many seuerall writings were afterwardes cryed and solde through the Citie of Paris In the tytles whereof some found meane to enterlace the word Conference to make shewe vnto the world that it was something touching the former disputations And such a subtiltie indeed was not without great profit to the Printers So great desire had men to know the truth of the thing For contentation of whom we haue thought meet to bring to light what was done concerning the same reseruing to another time to publish what the Doctors when they shall do it shall write against it and what the Ministers also will there vnto answere if they can recouer the same In the meane time shall each one be admonished to make profit of that which is here contained And to pray the Father of lights to shead more more the brightnesse of his spirit vpon his Church to the true vnderstanding of his holy word for the restauration and aduancement of the spirituall kingdome of Iesus Christ his sonne our Lord. So be it the 8. of Nouember 1566. FINIS A briefe Table of the titles of the Acts of the Disputation THe Preface containing the occasions of the Dispute following The first day of the Disputation which was Tuesday the 9. of Iuly 1566. touching the assurance one ought to haue of the word of God and of the meane to knowe what is the word of God and to discerne betweene the bookes of the Bible to call the one Canonicall and the other Apocripha The second day being Wednesday the 10. of Iuly touching the same matter with the resolution of the Doctors concluding that it is by the authoritie of the Church that the holy scripture is knowne to be the word of God And the resolution of the Ministers to the contrary That it is the spirite of God which sealeth and imprinteth the assurance thereof in the harts of the elect The third day being Thursday the 11. of Iuly containing the demaunds and answeres vpon the Creede of the Apostles and why it is so called The fourth day being Friday the 12. of Iuly comprehending the resolution of the Doctors concluding that it is by the tradition of the Church that one is assured of the Creed of the Apostles And that of the Ministers tending to this that it is knowne by the conformitie which it hath with the holy scriptures The fift day being Mâ—nday the 15. of Iuly where is the beginning of the disputation of Gods Omnipotencie vnder the couert whereof the Doctors do ground foure points contained in the 63. Page On this Omnipotencie and the points aboue said the disputes following as well by word as by writing were continued The sixt day of the Dispute Tuesday the 16. of Iuly The Ministers answere to the obiections of the Doctors 〈◊〉 Tuesday the 16. of Iuly The reply or obiection of the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers touching the article of Gods omnipotencie on Satterday the 20. of Iuly The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 22. of Iuly about fiue of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. The reply of the Doctors to the writing of the Ministers sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 25. day of Iuly about 8 of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. The Resolution of the Doctors touching the article of the Almightinesse of God in respect of the foure questions proposed by them to the Ministers Which serue to the vnderstanding of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament The articles proposed by the Doctors for the next and other conferences following according to the order of the said articles The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 28. of Iuly about seuen of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. A briefe resolution of all the answeres and discourses which the Ministers haue made vpon the matter of Gods omnipotencie in the conference which they haue had with the Doctors The answeres to the preface of the Doctors questions The answeres to the questions proposed by the Doctors touching the Supper A briefe reply of the Doctors against the last answere of the Ministers sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Niuernois the first of August at 7. of the clocke in the euening Anno.
ea Thy truth ô Lord not mine nor of him or him but of all vs whom thou callest to communion terribly admonishing that wee haue not the truth priuate least wee be depriued thereof And touching the bookes of the old Testament which the Ministers will not receiue for Canonicall by the iudgement of their inward reuelation the Doctors doo shewe that before Saint Augustines time or at leastwise in his time in the Church vniuersall all the bookes which are contained in the holy Bible without distinction were holden and receiued for Canonicall as witnesseth the Councell of Carthage where S. Augustine was And also the Councell of Laodicia Now thus say the Doctors the Fathers which were present in these Councels if by inward inspiration wee must iudge of bookes they had it or at least they might perswade themselues to haue it more assuredly then many others The Ministers say that they iudge by their inward reuelation that they be not Canonicall The Doctors leaue it to iudgement which men ought rather beleeue whether the inspiration of the auncient Fathers receiued by the Church for so many hundred yeares vntill now or else the priuate and particular inspiration of the new Ministers They adde further that they submit themselues to proue that the auncient Fathers yea neare the time of the Apostles as Ireneus S. Ciprian Origen S. Ierome S. Augustine and others doo vse the testimonies of the bookes reiected by the Ministers yea for proofe of the doctrine against the heretikes And Saint Augustine himselfe in the 2. booke of Christian doctrine Cap. 2. dooth put all those bookes by name among the bookes Canonicall And Damascen likewise in his fourth booke de Orthodoxa fide Cap. 18. To know then whether a man haue the spirit of God to discerne and iudge of the bookes of the scripture he must bee reduced to the common consent and agreement of the Church for this is the ordinarie meanes left by God to that effect and the experience may bee made is an argument sufficient to conuince that the faithfull by inward inspiration cannot discerne the Canonicall bookes from the pretended Apocrypha Which might easily bee verified would the cause to come at this present some of the same pretended reformed Religion which haue not yet bene instructed in the diuision of the bookes vnto whom should one propose the bookes which the Ministers hold for Apocrypha they would in no wise distinguish them from other bookes of the holy Byble And vpon the whole they conclude that if one person hath the spirite of God c. vt supra Answere Touching the first Article the Ministers neuer said as may appeare by the reading of all the former answeres that their religion is founded on their particular reuelations but vpon the word of God as is proposed in the writings of the Prophets and Apostles Of the truth whereof they haue said to be principally assured by the â—estimoniâ— and reuelation of the holy spirit They also say that faith is not the truth to speake properly but the perswasion of the truth which in the scripture â—s â—aught vs. Moreouer that this faith is not of our owne getting but a pure giâ—t of God adding that the Ministers to make them lawfullâ— ought to bee sent not from the pretended Pastors which haue not but the â—yâ—le and onely name of Pastors but ought to be sent from God a it appeareth in Ieremy where this marke is proposed to knowe and marke a false Pastor or Shepheard when hee thrusteth in himselfe or is sent of an other then of God Touching the article following they adde that the true marke whereby one may certainly iudge of the reuelation is rather the word of God then the consent of many for as much as it oft times happeneth that the multitude in the Church declining from the word doo altogether erre as in the time of Micheas the time of Iesus Christ and afterward also of Constance the Emperour Concerning the Prophets which doo follow theyâ— owne spirite as bee those which leaue the word of God and depend vppon the commaundements and traditions of men or on the vanitie of their owne sence there is no doubt but they are false Prophets and that such persons are to bee shunned and reiected But great difference must bee put betweene the reuelations and testimonies of the spirit of God and the vaine imaginations of the hearts of men Touching that which the Doctors haue set foorth that heretikes as Anabaptists and others doo vse for confirmation of their errors the texts of scripture alledged by the Ministers It may so bee for as much as the scripture beeing common may bee produced and alledged of eueâ—ie one And yet men must not stay vpon that which is alledged but weigh and examine how and to what end and purpose it is alledged and in so dooing men shall knowe the difference betweene the Ministers and heretikes And concerning that produced of Brentius and Bucer namely wherein they affirmed that by the onely tradition of the Church the Canonicall bookes may be discerned from the Apocrypha This it seemeth cannot well serue the Doctors seeing they maintaine all the bookes of the Bible to bee Canonicall and neuerthelesse by that they haue said of Brentius and Bucer it appeareth that the one and the other following the tradition as they say put a distinction therein calling the one Canonicall and the other Apocrypha Touching the Article following wherein the Doctors alledge certaine textes of the auntient Fathers to take away the difference betweene the bookes Canonicall and Apocrypha The Ministers do answer that as they haue alledged some to proue the same so can they also for their part alledge some to that purpose as Saint Ierome in his Prologue called Galeatus and in an other which beginneth Frater Ambrosius vnto whom writing the summe of euery booke of the Bible hee mentioneth those onely which the Ministers call Canonicall They may alledge also two or three Catalogues recyted in Eusebius which they receiue not for Canonicall bookes but those which the Ministers themselues approue Moreouer the Councell of Laodicia which the Doctors haue alledged is for the Ministers for as much as it comprehendeth not the bookes in question And touching the experience they answere that it is a question of fact and that it may be alledged rather against the Doctors then the Ministers And finally that they loose not more time in often repeating of one selfe-same thing but hasten to conferre of the points of the confession which the Doctors will debate The Ministers do shewe that the 24. bookes of the old Testament which are in the Canon of the Hebrewes with all the bookes of the new Testament be on both sides approued Canonicall And they are wholly sufficient to decide all the points of their confession all that in generall which appertaineth to true religion And by meanes thereof they haue no cause at all to drawe backe from the Conference for the
doctrine and why also it is called the Apostles Creed or whether it is because each of them added his part and portion therevnto or else whether it be because it is a marke and certaine ensigne of Christian Religion And as touching the same that it is a thing indifferent to saluation in as much as it hath alwaies one waight and authoritie be it that the Apostles haue written it or that it hath beene faithfully gathered out of theyr writings So haue also the Creeds as well of Nice as of Athanasius whereof the Church hath neuer doubted but that they containe a pure Apostolike doctrine as shee hath euidently declared in ordaining that the said Nicen Creede should bee publikely proposed and published to the people on the dayes of theyr assembly to communicate which at this day is yet obserued in the Church of Rome where that Creed is read or sung euery Sabaoth in their Churches And did it not containe Apostolike doctrine it should withstand the 59. Article of the Councell of Laodicia in which it is forbidden to read in the Church any thing proposed of priuate inuention but onely the doctrine comprised in the Canonicall bookes of the old and new Testament the number whereof is there made The Ministers say further that the reason and principall motiue of the faith which Christians giue to the Creed is the knowledge they haue that it is the pure word of God and him that teacheth it do they also maintaine to bee the word of God as may appeare by that which S. Paul writeth who after he had proposed to the Corinthians the death buriall and resurrection of Iesus Christ which be the chiefe articles of the Creed and those vpon which principally iustification is grounded addeth these words That hee deliuered vnto them that which he receiued to wit that Christ died for our sinnes according to the scriptures and that he was afterwards buried and that he arose againe the third day according to the scriptures Iesus Christ also proposing his death and resurrection to the two Disciples alledged to them the scriptures thereby to assure them saying O fooles and slowe of heart to beleeue all that the Prophets haue spoken ought not Christ to haue suffered these things and to enter into his glorie And hee began at Moyses and the Prophets and interpreted vnto them in all the scriptures the things that were written of him In the selfe-same Chapter appearing after his resurrection euen before the Creed was made proposing vnto them his death and resurrection to assure them thereof hee alledged vnto them the scriptures saying It is thus written and thus it behoued Christ to suffer and rise againe from the dead the third day Whence may be inferred that for the foundation of faith and assurance of the articles of the same there is no better means then to propose the scriptures And although in the time of the birth of the Church the Creed was proposed to those that were Catechised before the Apostles and Euangelists had put any thing in writing it followeth not therefore that there were no other scriptures wherevpon euery article of the faith might be builded And to decsare the same particularly The article of the creation hath it foundation vpon the beginning of Genesis The article of the almightinesse of God hath it foundation vpon the 40. Chapter of Esay and diuers other places of the scripture The article of the conception of Iesus Christ vpon the 7. Chapter of Esay For the place of his birth vpon the 5. of Micheas and in respect of the time vpon the 49. of Genesis and the 9. of Daniel The article of the death and of the Crosse vpon the 22. Psalme 53. Chapter of Esay and 9. of Daniel The article of the Resurrection vpon the 16. Psalme The article of the Ascention vpon the 68. Psalme The article of the iudgement in Daniel 12. The article of the sending of the holy Ghost in Ioel 2. The article of the Church Esay 2. and Micheas 4. The article of the remissiof sinnes vpon the 32. Psalme and 37. of Ezec. The article of the resurrecton of the flesh and life eternall in Daniel the 12. By this discourse and places of scripture quoted it may appeare to euery man that there were cleare and euident scriptures to ground all the articles of the faith vpon before the Creed was put in writing and that men might ought to alledge them to those that were catechised to assure them of that which was proposed vnto them to be beleeued And it is not possible that a man can beleeue that hath not first heard and vnderstood the Word and that is not assured thereof and holdeth it as certaine and more also were it possible then things conceiued and comprised by Mathematicall demonstration as it appeareth by the definition of faith when the Apostle calleth it Hypostasin elenchon That is to say the euidence of things which are not seene The Ministers do adde that it implyeth a contradiction to call the Creed a doctrine not written and yet to affirme that the Apostles haue written it And they cannot shewe how long it was an vnwritten doctrine and at what time it began to be written And the Ministers are much displeased in that they which conferre with them doo not more propose the edification as well of those that bee present at this Conference as of others which may see and read the Acts thereof For where as they might handle and decide points tending to edification of the simple they stay on proposing and handling some things whereof they no way doubt which is as much as to proue a thing confessed and resolued on and to light a candle at noone-day And they assure themselues that they which shal read the acts of this Conference will not at all bee abashed because they decline to treat of that point whereof they be so oft required for that as Iesus Christ saith he that doth euill fleeth the light For conclusion the Ministers do protest to confesse and beleeue that the Creed of the Apostles in euery article therof is the pure word of God and in the faith wherof it behoueth euery faithfull man to stay and petseuere vnto the end So that they would no way receiue nor approue the man in their Churches that should denie or ought doubted of the said articles Reply The Doctors will proue that the doctrine of the Ministers containeth points contrarie to the principall articles of the Creed The first is against the article of the Almightinesse of God when as they say and teach that God cannot cause one body to be in two places The second is against the article of the creation when as they say that God not onely permitteth euil and sinne to be done but also himselfe doth it The third is that one while they denie and an other while they confesse for an article of faith that the Virgin Marie remaineth a Virgin after
can do any thing against the said order which he hath put in the world And thirdly that were it so there should bee contradiction in his will whereby it would followe that hee should be a lyar And for the fourth blasphemie that the power of God is his will and that his weaknesse is his vnwillingnesse And for the fift the Ministers pretend that God hath willed to make a body which at one selfe instant hath beene in many places before they beleeue that God could doo it otherwise they intend to inferre that hee had not power and could not do it So that the Ministers will nought acknowledge of the power of God but so much thereof as hee hath shewed by effect And to that purpose they alledge Tertullian All which blasphemies be drawne out of the proper words of the Ministers first article Touching the first which is that God cannot make a thing which derogateth the order he hath established in the world it is very apparant that it is blasphemie by the holy scripture which in infinite places maketh mention of the workes of God aboue nature which the Ministers call the order established in the world And in proper termes teacheth that God can do infinite things aboue the order by him established in the world Namely that Lots wife was turned into a pillar of salte that a barren woman in her old age hauing an old husband brought forth a childe that a withered Rodde budded that an Asse spake that the sonne stayed and went backe and other more then innumerable examples contained in the old Testament And as touching the new that a virgin brought forth a child That a body walked vpō the water mounted into heauen And generally all the myracles that Christ and his Apostles did aboue nature which is contrary to the order established in the world And of this blasphemie ensueth an other that God since hee established his order in the world hath not done nor could nor can do any myracle Now to proue that the scripture teacheth clearely that God can do contrary to the order established in the world it is written in the 50. of Esay Is my hand that is to say my power so shortned that it cannot helpe or haue I no power to deliuer Behold at my rebuke I drie the sea I make the flouds desart Their fish rotteth for want of water and dyeth for thirst I cloathe the heauens with darknesse make a sacke their couering And more expresly in the new Testament where it is said by S. Iohn That God can of stones raise vp children to Abraham Which place although it may be expounded allegorically yet hath S. Iohn willed in the litterall sence to shewe that it was possible to God And the diue did know and confesse that if Iesus Christ were the true sonne of God he could chaunge the stones into bread Which is neuerthelesse contrary to the order established in the world And it must be noted that there is no more impossibilitie that the bread should bee chaunged into flesh by the omnipotencie of God then a stone into bread And therefore they which denie this last done by the power of God do shewe to beleeue lesse the almightinesse of God then the diuels The confutation of the second blasphemie dependeth on the confutation of the first For although God against the order established in the world hath done many myracles as hath beene before recyted yet neuerthelesse there is no mutabilitie nor chaunge in his counsaile Touching the third blasphemie which is that if God did any thing contrary to the order established in the world there should be contradiction in his will and he should therfore be a lyar The Doctors obiect that it would follow that the will of God should be such neuer to will any thing contrary to the order established in the world And that God should haue purposed and declared by his word his will to be such For otherwise can they not know what the will of God shuld be And the Ministers do not nor can they make it appeare by the word of God the will of God to be such that he will not do any thing against the order established in the world And it behoueth the said Ministers to teach of such a wil of God before they conclude that God made one body to be in two places or other thing against the order of nature established in the world he should be a lyar Touching the fourth blasphemie which is that the power of God is his will and that his weaknesse is his vnwillingnes according to the sence which the Ministers giue it to wit if God cannot but that which he will it is an heresie of the heretikes called Monarchians in the Primitiue Church Against whom Tertulliā wrote in his booke Aduersus Praxeā and afterwards renewed by Peter Abaillardus And since cōtinued by one called Wickliffe who measured the power of God according to his will Which is against the expresse word of God which often declareth many things possible to God that notwithstanding he wil not do as by that which is written in the 2. of Wisedome appeareth where mention is made that God could send vpon the children of Israel many kinds of affliction to chasten thē but he would not do it hauing disposed all things by number waight measure And that he could destroy those which had offended but that he would not vsing mercie towards thē And in the Gospel our Lord said to S. Peter Thinkest thou that I could not now pray my Father and he would send me more then 12. Legions of Angels And notwithstanding he would not pray for that purpose And his Father would not send them although he had power to do it to the person of his sonne And Iesus Christ himself could haue letted his enemies frō taking away his life but he would not And the Father saith S. Paul by his power could haue saued him frō corporall death But neuerthelesse hee would not do the one nor the other Notwithstanding the Ministers might say that it was preordained yet the scripture saith expresly that he could do it although it had bin preordained And as touching the authoritie of Tertullian the Doctors are glad that the Ministers do produce it because it maketh wholy for the truth against the blasphemy of the Ministers who haue omitted many words and sentences of the said Tertullian which serued to the confutation of their error as by the text here inserted may be easily iudged Nihil Deo difficile Quis hoc nesciat Et impossibilia apud seculum possibilia apud deū Quis ignorat Et stulta mūdi elegit Deus vt confundat sapientia Ergo inquiūt haeretici Monarchiani scilicet difficile non fuit deo ipsū se patrem Filiū facere aduersus traditam formā rebus humanis Nam Aerilē parere contra naturam difficile deo non fuit sicut nec virginē planè nichil Deo difficile
betweene the true reuelations of the Lord and the Word which proceeding from him is as true as the reuelation And the reuelation reciprocally as true as the Word Yet doth it not therefore follow that the word and the reuelations of the spirit of the Lord by the which we may be conducted to the vnderstanding of the word are not things different and that the one doth not go before the other And where the said Vigor prayeth the said De Spina to hasten to the point he answereth That he cannot else where ground his answeres then vpon the demaundes which be made vnto him Reply Whereunto the said Vigor replyed that hee referred himselfe touching the sence to that which is touched in the answere of the said De Spina And where he saith that the word goeth before the reuelation that is of no value to make difference vpon the question proposed And to come to the point the said Vigor demaundeth whether a man may be assured that he hath reuelation from the Lord that a booke is a booke of the holy Scripture and when he may iudge assuredly of his inward inspiration Also how he can assure any of this inspiration giuen him of the Lord Answere Touching the first Article of the last demaund It is not a thing impertinent to distinguish the scripture from the interpretation thereof inaâ—much as they bee things diuers and diuers gifts of the Lord. And to answer to the question proposed how a particular man before the reuelation and inward testimonie of the spirit of God in his heart may acknowledge that it is Canonicall The spirit of God varieth not from himselfe And abiding in one particular man he wil acknowledge the Scripture which is come from him and beareth his markes And for answere to the second demand hee also saith that the selfe same spirit beeing likewise in a third person will acknowledge both that the word and the reuelation are of him for the reasons alledged That is to say that the spirit of God in diuers persons is alwayes equall and like vnto himselfe Obiection This is no full satisfaction to the first question proposed by the which it was demaunded how some man may iudge in himselfe that hee hath the holy Ghost to discerne one Booke to be the holy Scripture and another not but Apocrypha and how he may declare vnto another that he hath his inspiration from God Answere The spirit of God is called a seale in the scripture therefore is it that the first effect which it produceth in the heart of him vnto whom it is communicated is to assure him of his presence As for assuring a secoÌ„d person of the reuelation that one hath receiued of the spirit of God it is easie Forasmuch as the spirit of God which openeth the mouth of the one to speake doth also open the eares of the other to listen to his word and the heart to beleeue it to be perswaded thereof So that betweene the maister and the scholler between the teacher and the hearer when they be both furnished and enlightened by the Spirit of God there is alwayes one mutuall consent to acknowledge one another Obiection Such certaintie is a great incertaintie And there is not any of what sect soeuer which doeth not assure himselfe to haue the holy Ghost and the trueth on his side which is a foolish presumption How can a man distinguish a presumption from a true inspiration Answere S. Iohn Chrisostome saith that in vaine a man boasteth of the spirit without the word which is a meane to represse sectes and heresies and to iudge of all things which heretiques others would propose vnder the authoritie tytle of the Spirit of God For as by the spirit we know the true sence of the word so do we also mutually acknowledge by the word who those be which haue the spirit of God or no. Obiection This is no answere to the question For the question is not to examine the doctrine by the word but the question is to know whether it be the word of God by which a man will examine and approoue a doctrine And how a man shall iudge assuredly that hee hath a reuelation of the Lord that that is the word of God Answere If he be faithfull therefore shall he iudge by the Spirit of God which is in him as in him which telleth the same vnto him And if he be vnfaithfull as impossible it is that he should iudge thereof as it is to a blinde man to iudge and discerne of colours presented vnto him Forasmuch saieth S. Paul as the Spirit of God is he by whom wee know and iudge the things that are of God Obiection Yet is not this an answere to the question proposed let the iudgement thereof be left to the readers and hearers Now make they another demaund that is to say Whether we be not very certaine by the word of God that the Lord doeth assist his Church and will assist it vnto the end of the world And whether it be not a more assured thing to stay on the consent and iudgement of the Church touching the determination of the Canonicall bookes of the holy Scripture the distinction of them from the Apocrypha then to leane vpon his owne iudgement esteeming it to bee an inward inspiration whereof a man can make no proofe but supposeth that he hath the holy Ghost Answere The Doctors doo confound the opinions which fantasticke men may haue with the witnesses and reuelations of the holy Ghost although betweene those two there is as much distance as is from heauen to earth And as touching the consent of the Church suppose that it proceedeth from the spirit of God Infallable it is also certaine that particular reuelations may be as of Esay and other Prophets And forasmuch as the one and the other do proceed from one selfe same Authour which is the Spirit of trueth The certaintie of the reuelations of God his Spirit made vnto all the Church in generall and to euery member of it in particular is of one selfe same moment Obiection The Minsters cannot shew to the Catholiques nor to any others that they are not fantasticall for asmuch as they make no proofe more then do other sects of the reuelation of the holy Ghost made vnto them and as touching that is said suppose that it proceedeth froÌ„ the Spirit of God They doubt it seemeth of the assistance of the holy Ghost in the Church of God which saith S. Paul is Columna firmameÌ„tuÌ„ veritatis the pillar ground of truth And a thing it is to be wel considered that they are more certain of the assistaÌ„ce of the Lord in one particular person then in the Church vniuersal And where they say that to know the truth the holy Spirit assisteth as well euery member of the Church as the whole church By that might a man conclude that the particular faithful could neuer erre that the
particular faithfull man should be aswell the pillar of truth as the vniuersal church Moreouer in making of particular reuelatiō of like waight with the iudgement of the church they plainly contradict the 4. article of their confession of faith where it is thus written We acknowledge those bookes to be canonicall and very certaine rules of our faith not so much by the common consent and agreement of the Church as by the testimonie and inward perswasion of the holy Ghost which maketh vs to discerne them frō other Ecclesiasticall bookes By the said article men may see how much more they attribute to themselues then to all the vniuersall church Which article they now contradict attributing as much to the one as to the other And also in their confessiō of faith lastly printed the said article hath been taken away as is seene by that which De Spina hath now brought hither imprinted at Geneua 1564. Whereby it appeareth that they be retracted as confessing that it behoueth to rest more vpon the common cōsent of the church thē vpon any particular mās iudgemēt Which thing is very reasonable seeing the holy Ghost is promised to the church vniuersall not to euery particular person Answere If men may esteeme the Ministers fantasticke although they haue the word of God more shall the Doctors bee holden for such in things they maintaine and defend without and contrarie to the word of God Touching the second point where the Doctors reproach the Ministers that they doo doubt as it seemeth by their answere of the assistance of the spirit of God to the church The answer is that that is not the doubt but to know which is the true Church And touching the third point whereof say the Doctors might bee inferred that particular persons could not erre The consequence is naught for as much as the spirite of God may sometimes depart from particular persons and in this case they may faile and erre as Dauid confesseth to haue happened to him To the fourth point the Ministers do answere that they no way contradict the alledged Article of their confession for that comparison is made in the answere of two reuelations of the holy Ghost the one made to the bodie and the other to the members which they maintaine to bee of like waight touching the certaintie thereof And in the confession mention is made of the reuelation of GOD his spirite which is the cause of the Churches consent which doth follow as the effect thereof Now so it is that the cause being preferred before his effect there is great reason that the reuelation of God his spirit compared with the consent of his Church be preferred vnto it as the cause to the effect which it produceth And touching the contrarietie which they pretend to happen in the confessions printed at diuers times and by diuers Printers they shall bee answered when it shall please them to debate the Articles particularly Obiection Where they set foorth the doubt they haue of the true Church as much men may say of pretended reuelations of God his spirit vnto particular persons Of whom likewise it may bee doubted whether they bee members of the Church For the other point where they denie that they contradict the fourth article of their confession it seemeth in shew that there is contradiction for as much as they compare the particular reuelatiō with the consent of the church as by their answere appeareth Also that which is alledged that reuelation is cause of consent to preferre it to that as the cause to the effect seemeth to serue to small purpose for it is as if one shuld say that the reuelation is to be preferred to the word of God and the holy scripture For very certaine it is that reuelation goeth before the word and scripture And as it appeareth in the text of the Confession as euery one may easily iudge the authors thereof speake of the certaintie and infallibilitie of two reuelations as holding themselues more assured of that they haue in their owne spirit then that which is of the iudgement of the Church And touching an other point where it is said that particular persons may sometimes faile when the holy Ghost doth leaue them By that wee may conclude that wee must not infallibly rest on the pretended inspirations of particular persons because we may doubt of them whether they be destitute of God his spirit or no which cannot be done of the Church Wherefore more sure it is to stay vpon the Church infallably gouerned by the holy Ghost then vpon priuate pretended inspirations And so do the Catholikes therein neuer following their priuate iudgement and therefore cannot be esteemed phantasticke But rather those which preferre their proper iudgement which they shrowde with the title of particular inspiration The Doctors require one text of the scripture by the which the holy Ghost is promised vnto euery one in particular as it is to the Church vniuersall to know and iudge and discerne which are the scriptures Answere Touching the first point As indeed they approue not all Churches to be true Churches which say they be so So do they not also approue them all faithful who boast themselues to be so For the second point the comparison of the Doctors is not proper which thus they haue made as who should say that reuelation is to bee preferred to the word of God c. Forasmuch as the word of God all the writings aswell of the Prophets as of the Apostles are as much of the reuelations of the Spirit of God that no more difference there is betweene the one and the other then is betweene Genus and Species And touching that which is added in this article that the reuelation precedeth the Scripture It behooueth to distinguish betweene the reuelations made to the Prophets before they put them in writing and those which haue beene made to them that read their writings for the vnderstanding of them Touching the first we confesse they goe before the Scripture And touching the second wee say that they follow the same For the third article the Ministers doo answere that it is easie to iudge whether the Spirit of God assist a particular person or whether it bee withdrawne by the things which he proposeth when they bee reduced to the word of God and censured by the rules which are there proposed vnto vs as is sayde Touching the demand it should bee too tedious a thing to alledge all the places where it is written That the Spirit of God is communicated to the particular members of the Church onely let them see in the 1. Cor. 2. where expresly it is said that the Spirite of God is communicated to the chosen to know and discerne the things which bee of God And in Esay 55. the Lord doth promise to shed his Spirite vpon the faithfull as water vpon the earth And in Ioel likewise the second and Ieremie 34. And the 1. Epistle of Saint Iohn
it be of like authoritie with the proper writtings of the Apostles Answere The first question was whether the Creed were made by the Apostles Whereunto hath beene rendred sufficient answere After which it is lawfull to make the second demand which is diuers from that Obiection The second dependeth on the first and so hath it been made Whether it bee thought sufficiently answered let the iudgement thereof be referred to the reader Answere Because it dependeth thereupon it is not therefore the same Question Whether they approoue the Creed onely because they know it to be conformable to the writings of the Apostles Or whether there any other cause which incyteth them to beleeue it Answere It is not onely conformable but the doctrine it selfe and for that cause doo they beleeue it and approoue it Question Whether a man be not bound to receiue it but for so much as hee knoweth it to bee the same writing or conformable to the writings of the Apostles as is aforesaid Answere The principall cause that may moue him that beleeueth it to beleeue it is the knowledge afore spoken of Question Although this be the principall cause they require an absolute answere whether there be not other sufficient cause to beleeue it in such wise as this first is necessarie Answere For the Creed and euery other thing we beleeue the principall cause is the knowledge we haue that the same hath bene left in writing or collected of the writings of the Prophets and Apostles And we for our part seeke no other reason but that of the faith which we haue Obiection They answere not vnder correction to the question which is whether to receiue the Creed of the Apostles this cause be necessary to know the cōformitie of the said Creed with the writings of the Apostles and that without the same none can or ought to receiue it The Doctors pray them to auoyd circumlocution and answere absolutely the one or the other And more simply to explane the question this it is to wit whether one ought not to receiue the Creed of the Apostles but because he knoweth that it is conformable to the Apostles writings Answere The matter considered after the doctrine of S. Paul that there is no true faith without knowledge and assurance of the word to beleeue it behoueth to know that it is the word of God Question It would be knowne whether they vnderstand this word to be written or not written Answere The word written and reuealed by the Prophets and Apostles which is the foundation of the Christian faith Obiection The Ministers doo then maintaine that before the beleeuing of the Creed or proposing it to be beleeued it behoueth to be instructed or to instruct an other in the writings of the Apostles and Prophets Now that is contrary to all the order euer holden in the Church and contrary to that which is contained in the forme prescribed for administration of the Sacraments in the Church at Geneua made by Caluin and inserted amongst his workes which beareth these words addressed to them that haue charge of the childe they baptise For as much as the matter wee haue in hand is to receiue this childe into the fellowship of the Christian Church yea do promise whē it shal come to yeares of discretion to instruct it in the doctrine which is receiued and approued of Gods people And after these words is inserted the Creed after which it is said they shall proceed to the instruction of the childe in all the doctrine contained in the holy scripture of the olde and new Testament so that before they propose the Creed to be beleeued they propose not to be beleeued that there is any word of God written nor what it is nor that therein contained to know the conformitie of the Creed with the same Also they place not the foundation of the beleeuing of the Creed vpon the knowledge and conformitie of the scripture but vpon the doctrine receiued and approued by the people of God As the auncient Church yea before the scriptures of the new Testament were written did wontedly propose both to great and small the beliefe of the Creed before they proposed the holy scriptures vnto them as by Christian antiquities appeareth And therefore the beliefe of a Christian touching the Creed dependeth not on the written word but vpon the word reuealed to the people and church of God Answere Touching the first article it is very necessarie that in teaching a childe or any other ignorant person the Creed of the Apostles they also forthwith teach him the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets seeing that which is contained in the Creed is no other thing but the selfe-same doctrine and that they are things not onely conioyned but also like if not in words yet at least in sence and substance Touching the second article they denie that that abouesaid is any way cōtrary to the established order in the church of Geneua or any other well gouerned Church And as touching the reason drawne frō the forme of the Baptisme vsed in the said Churches it followeth not by the alledged words and sayings thereof that Caluin proposed thē to exclude the Creed and to seperate the same from the writings and doctrine of the Prophets Apostles which is impossible but plainly to shewe that when he added that word hee meant therin to comprehend it and generally which the Doctors haue omitted in their allegation to comprehend that which remaineth in the holy scriptures after the deduction he had made of the points of doctrine particularly comprised in the Creed And for the other reason added that the Creed was proposed to those that were catechised before any booke of the new Testament was written they grant it But it followeth not therefore that it was not founded on the word and doctrine which the Apostles did preach although then not put in writing And likewise on the writings of the Prophets wherevpon is founded the doctrine of the Apostles For conclusion the Ministers put no difference as touching the sence betweene the word of God preached and written Obiection The Ministers it seemeth haue not well conceiued the meaning of the Doctors For the question is not whether the Creed bee conformable in it selfe to the writings Apostolike but whether it first behoueth to beleeue and vnderstand that the Apostles and Prophets haue put a doctrine in writing vnto which the Creed is conformable and that otherwise the Creed cannot bee beleeued And for more easie explanation the question is whether it be not possible for a childe being come to yeares of discretion or any other by the instruction of the father and mother or others to beleeue the articles of the Creed without being first instructed by them that there are certaine Apostolike writings vnto which the Articles of the Creed are conformable And whether to moue them so to beleeue it be necessary to know that conformitie Let the Ministers absolutely answere therevnto Answere Faith
conference of the Masse are the cause of such questions and the Doctors by this meane will draw them therevnto For this article of the omnipotencie is the chiefe foundation to proue and maintaine the word of God and the reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar And the Doctors are abashed at so many declinings for when their confession is spoken of they demand the Masse and when they come to the Masse they demaund their confession Answere The Ministers do abash at so many superfluous things proposed by the Doctors And where they say that albeit they oppugne not the words of the said confession yet doo they oppugne the sence thereof The Ministers answere that the sence cannot be knowne but by the words And for this reason they wrap themselues in a contradictiō when as leauing the tearmes thereof they say they will confute the sence And as for the conclusion which they will drawe from Gods omnipotencie affirming that one body is in diuers places at one selfe-same instant the Ministers do denie that that by good consequence can be inferred of the omnipotencie of God Obiection The Doctors say that it doth well follow God cannot cause one body to be in two places at one selfe-same instant God therefore is not almightie Answere The Ministers denie the consequence aforesaid and alledge reason because it appeareth by the holy scripture that God cannot denie himselfe and that it is impossible that he should lye Neuerthelesse it were blasphemie to inferre and conclude therevpon that he were not almightie For the omnipotencie of God ought to be measured according to his will and the things agreeable to his nature as teacheth the Mr. of the sentences saying In that is God omnipotent wherein his power is of might and not of infirmitie S. Ierome writing to Eustochius and confirming that aboue said saith as followeth I will boldly say although God can do all things yet can he not restore and reestablish a virgin after her fall Saint Augustine likewise writeth in the fift booke of the Citie of God cap. 10. in these words The power of God is in nothing lessened when it is said he cannot die nor be beguiled And a litle after God is almightie because there be things which he cannot do The same Author in the 26. of the same worke cap. 8. thus saith He that saith if God be almightie let him cause the things which be made that they be not made Perceiueth not that it is as much as if he said if hee be almightie let him make the things which are true in as much as they be true to be false Teodoret also in his third Dialogue conformable to that aboue said saith We must not without determination say that all things generally are possible to God For hee that so saieth absolutely comprehendeth things good and euill which are contrary in themselues And a little after hee affirmeth that God cannot sinne because it is a thing contrary to his nature Wherevpon hee concludeth that although many things there be which he cannot do for as much as there bee many sinnes yet for all that doth he not cease to be almightie Obiection The Doctors say that the reasons formerly brought do auaile and serue to shewe that the Ministers doo confesse the antecedent which seemed onely to be supposed to wit God cannot cause one body at one selfe instant to bee in two places no more then hee can make the things by them alledged For to this end doo they alledge them to declare that something there is which God cannot doo And to the present question to wit that one body cannot be in two places can they not apply them but to shew that the same is impossible to God And as touching the reasons alledged out of the holy scriptures God cannot lye nor denie himselfe these places vnder correction serue nought to this purpose For as they haue brought out of the Mr. of the sentences power to lye power to sinne is not power but impotencie contrariwise rather if God could sinne he should be impotent and weake and such thing also God cannot do for then should he repugne and destroy himselfe And as touching the examples brought out of S. Ierome and S. Augustine that God cannot make a virgin deflowred to bee yet a virgin or a thing done not to be done that vnderstood as the Logitians say In sensu Composito that is to say the things beeing such and so made is true And the reason is for that it would otherwise imply a contradiction But in the question proposed there is nothing like therevnto for the question onely demandeth whether God by his power can alter change the nature and qualitie of things created as whether he can make a thing heauie and masly abiding in it qualitie of waight and massinesse which naturally tendeth downeward by the onely power of God to hang in the ayre as in the holy scripture we read that the fire which naturally ascendeth doth descend by the power of God Also that the fire naturally hot and burning cooleth the qualitie thereof that is to say the heate remaining in the substance As also that two bodies bee in one selfe-same place as appeared when our Lord did enter where the Apostles were the the doores being shut or that a grosse and large body remaining in it grossenesse and largenesse do passe through a place vnproportionable to it greatnesse and largenesse as a cable through the eye of a needle All these examples are taken out of the holy scripture And if it must be that God cannot make one body to be in two places at once no more should he be able to do the things aforesaid for the reasons to this purpose they will afterwards declare And it will not be found that it hath euer entered into the braine of any Interpreter to denie such a power And the first that euer did openly denie it was first Peter Marter and after him Beza The Doctors further say that the forme of the argument which the Ministers do vse doth withstand and destroy that which God vseth in the holy scripture and the Angell speaking to the virgin For God ordinarily when he will assure something impossible to nature and which men cannot comprehend he generally alledgeth his power And the Angell willing to make a ground of the incarnation of our Lord doth alledge in generall that there is nothing impossible to God in regard of the creatures as the Angell speaketh Now so it is that the generalitie of an argument is destroyed by particular exceptions and is made by this meane vnprofitable and forcelesse When God then alledgeth in generall that his power can do it one may doubt thereof and esteeme the thing proposed of God to bee of those which are to him impossible as wel as the exceptions by the Ministers alledged And that should be false which the Angell saith That there is nothing impossible to God
of it proper essence So that it is impossible that a body should bee a body which is not measured and circumscript The first example they produce for confirmation of their saying is that a massie thing which naturally for the waight thereof declineth downward may be lifted on high Wherevnto the Ministers do answere that it may be done and that by violent motion But that this example nought serueth to ouerthrow that they haue said for as much as such things in themselues containe no contradiction and that they are not contrary to the essence of the thing where they happen For a stone which a man throweth vpward doth not therefore cease to be a stone neither by such a mouing is it not depriued of the waightinesse thereof To the example of the fire they answere that it is one selfesame reason of light as of heauie things and that without any corruption of their essence their naturall mouings may be changed by some force and violence done vnto them And as touching that they alledge of fire which contrary to it nature namely to heat and burne refreshed the three Iewes in the Babilonian furnace they answere that the fire therefore was nothing altered in the essence nor qualiries thereof which may easily appeare in that it spared the three Iewes and burned and consumed those which kindled the same Whereof may be inferred that the cause why it did not offend them proceeded not because the nature or qualities thereof were any way changed but onely because the action thereof was suspended And where they alledge that two bodies may be at one instant in one selfe-same place together and for proofe therof propose that which is written in S. Iohn that Iesus Christ did enter where his Disciples were the doores beeing shut the Ministers do answere that it is not so in the text but the text sheweth that the Disciples beeing assembled in a place Iesus Christ stood appeared in the middest of them Whereof can be no way inferred that hee entred into the place where they were without opening of the doores nor that hee pierced them to enter therein And very like it is that they were opened and shut againe as well as those which the Angell did open and shut againe when hee was sent to deliuer S. Peter out of prison and when likewise hee was sent for the Apostles deliuerance As touching that they propose of a grosse body passing through a straight place alledging the example of a Cable through the eye of a needle The Ministers answere that it is ill to the purpose alledged and is an argument grounded vpon a thing impossible They say moreouer that the Doctors haue all vnderstood the word Camilos vsurped in the scripture not for a Cable but for a Camell as to them it is manifest which are but meanely seene in the antiquities of the Hebrewes And as appeareth by that which Angelius Caninius writeth in the end of his Caldean Grammer And for the conclusion which the Doctors drawe from the precedent examples it is from the purpose and founded vppon presupposed antecedents and premisses by them brought which in the sence they alledge them for the reasons aboue declared they neither haue nor will confesse vnto them Where they say that what the Ministers haue said touching a body that it cannot be in two places at one instant were it the body of Iesus Christ it selfe was neuer written by any of the auncient Fathers nor proposed before the comming of Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza The Ministers do maintaine that it was And that S. Augustine in his Epistle to Dardanus saith the same in these tearmes According to this forme meaning the corporall forme of Iesus Christ we must not thinke that it is euery where And wee must beware least in establishing in him his diuinitie we take not frō him the veritie of his body And else-where hee saith That by reason of the nature and measure of a true body hee is in one place in heauen The selfe-same thing saith Therdoret in his second Dialogue as hath bene before alledged And so doth Vigilius in his fourth booke against Eutiches where hee writeth as followeth If the word and flesh be but of one nature how commeth it to passe that the flesh is not found euery where as the word of which word it was taken to constitute one selfe-same person and Hypostaly is euery where for when it was on the earth it was not in heauen and now that it is in heauen surely it is not on the earth And so farre off is it that he is there that we attend Iesus Christ to come according to his flesh whom neuerthelesse we beleeue as he is the word to be here on earth with vs. By these and other like authorities often found in the writings of the Fathers men may know that Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza are not the first authors of this doctrine and that it is falsly imputed to them for as much as they haue but drawne and word by word copied as it were the same out of the bookes of the auncient Fathers To that which the Doctors pretend that the forme of arguing which the Ministers haue vsed affirming some things to be impossible to God doth not derogate his omnipotēcie ouerthroweth the forme of the argument which the Angell speaking to the virgin vseth for cōfirmatiō of that which he declared vnto her that is that nothing is impossible to God The Ministers do answere that it is nothing to the purpose for as much as the question is neither of a thing which containeth in it self any contradiction nor that is contrary to the truth of God which be the two matters they haue alledged and yet do alledge for the expositiō of the omnipotencie of God And touching that which the Doctors do adde that God can change the nature and qualitie of things there is no man doubteth the same But whē that is done it behoueth also to auow that the things be changed that they remain not in their first nature And the Ministers say that it is not all one with the thing here proposed for as much as the Doctors wil haue a thing to remain in it essence and nature although the essentiall parts therof be changed altogether extinct and abolished Touching the limitation of the power of God towards his creatures there is none so presumptuous to attempt to limit the same in whatsoeuer he wil and which confesseth not that he may ordaine dispose of all his creatures in generall as it pleaseth him as a Potter doth of his earth And thervnto say they ought the authoritie of Ieremy to be referred as it appeareth very clearly by these Hebrew words L◠gippale Mimmecha col-dauar To wit nothing shal be hard to thee ô Lord. Concerning the danger which the Doctors pretend may come of the abouesaid answeres of the Ministers they answer that men of sound and good judgement wil neuer drawe thereof
naturall proprietie of a body can make a great and thicke body to passe in a space and place vnequall to it greatnesse largenesse and thicknesse The Doctors cyted what our Lord saith in the 19. of S. Mathew It is easier for a Cable to goe through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter into the kingdome of heauen Two things haue the Ministers answered vnto the one that in the translation wee must not vse Cable but rather Camel although neuertheles their own French Bible of Anthony Rebulls impression which they haue brought containeth the translation of this word Cable And Caluin himself likewise in his Hermony of the foure Euangelists saith that to bee better But here in appeareth to be truth what Tertullian against the Valentinians and before him Ireneus in his first booke and 14. Chapter against the Valentinians doo say That they which seperate themselues from vs to go to an other schoole do alwaies inuent some new thing that the disciples may bee found more cunning then their Maisters But well this word Camell beeing yeelded vnto them as the Doctors doubt not to haue bene expounded by Saint Hillary S. Ierom and others the reason thereof is yet more strong For it is yet more repugnant that a crooked grosse and great Camell then a Cable should enter through the eye of a needle The other reason giuen by the Ministers is that God cannot make a Camel or Cable to enter throgh the eye of a needle which is notwithstanding against the pure word of Iesus Christ who saith not it is is impossible to God but rather easie to do that and by comparison more easie vnto God then to make a rich man to enter into the kingdome of heauen which neuerthelesse is said by our Lord to be possible not vnto men but vnto God to whom there is nothing vnpossible Whervpō the Doctors say thus If God can do that which is more difficult he can doo that which is more easie Now by the text of the scripture it is said that God can make a rich man enter into the kingdome of heauen which is the more difficult he can therfore make a Camell or Cable to enter through the eye of a needle which is more easie The answeres of the Ministers here aboue confuted tend to such absurdities and blasphemies that Iesus Christ by his almightinesse could not enter through the closed doores that hee could not come forth of the belly of his mother through her body without fraction that he could not make a visible body to be inuisible that a grosse and great body might be in a place vnequall to it that hee could not by his diuine power make penetration of dimensions and that he could not make by the same diuine power one body to bee in two places for it is like reason of the last article and of the others albeit such things are declared in the scriptures not onely to be possible but euen the most part of them to haue bene done And the Doctors do wonder how the Ministers dare denie such things seeing themselues must necessarily confesse if their doctrine of the Supper be true that the body of Iesus Christ is in diuers places which they proue thus The faithfull really receiue in their soules the substance of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ by the working of the holy Ghost and not the bread and the wine onely or else as saith Caluin in the 4 booke 17. Chapter and 11. section of his Institution the effect and vertue of the same Sacrament Now the Doctors conclude thus It is impossible for a man to receiue into him the substance of the body of Iesus Christ but the body of Iesus Christ is in him But all the faithfull in the Supper do receiue the same into their soules therefore must the body of Iesus Christ be in them and by consequent in diuers places to wit in all places where their Supper is made and likewise in heauen They say further that Caluin in his Institution the fourtth booke 17. Chapter and 24. sect saith That in the Supper the power of God is required to the ende that the flesh of Iesus Christ may pierce euen vnto vs and that humane nature cannot comprehend the same But it behoueth that the power of God doo worke therein And by this meane Caluin doth admit by the power of God the flesh of Iesus Christ in many places to wit in heauen and in vs into whom it must pierce by the power of God And in the tenth number he saith That the truth signified and represented by the signes must bee represented and exhibited in the same place where the signes be Which hee proueth by reason in many places to wit that the signes must no more bee voyd then the Doue was voyd of the holy Ghost But as the essence and substance of the holy Ghost was conioyned and present with the Doue so the flesh and bloud of our Lord before there be a true Sacrament must be conioyned and vnited with the signes The passages are against Heshusius and in his booke of the Supper and vpon the first of the 11. Chapter to the Corinthians And although the Ministers will answere the Doctors beseech them well to weigh and consider the text of Caluin and of the reason he giueth of the holy Ghost They doo obiect further that the Ministers in their Supper doo attribute more to the humane power then to the omnipotencie of God yea they do more then God can do which is that they brag to do a thing by their faith which implyeth contradiction saying in their confession of faith exhibited to the Bishops in the congregatiō at Poissy That faith maketh things absent to be present in one selfe-same instant and place That is to say in the soules of the faithfull when they celebrate their Supper which is as much to say as faith maketh things not present present at one selfe-same instant and place So that to euery faithfull in the Supper comming worthily therevnto is the body of Iesus Christ there present by the power of faith And neuerthelesse it is not there present for they say so and that it is onely in heauen Wherein appeareth that there is implication of contradiction to wit present not really present And the small starting hole they told vs of that the body is aboue corporally and spiritually in the Supper in the harts of the faithfull can serue for nothing For the spiritualtie cannot take away the substance of the thing and their faith cannot make a body not to be a body and that a body haue not it dimensions as heretofore they haue said Therefore howsoeuer they confesse that the faithfull in the Supper receiue into their soules the substance of the body of Iesus Christ will they or nill they must they necessarily confesse that either their faith is more mightie then the infinite vertue and power of God or else that God can make
Primitiue Church And the Doctors haue attributed them to him in whose name they are intituled And so much there is that the said Iustine in the place alledged layeth the myracle to haue bene done in the bodie of Iesus Christ which being grosse and thick entered through the closed doores by the power of God contrary to the nature of a bodie And therefore the Apostles supposed it a vision by reason of the entrie made without opening as spirites doo wontedly enter Let the text be seene S. Hillary saith not only that he there entered in what sort soeuer it were by the omnipotencie of God as the Ministers will wrest his authoritie but as if he had now to deale with the said Ministers hee repulseth mocketh at all their euasions and subtilties which vpon this act they imagined Nothing saith he gaue place to open to such a bodie and that it lost nothing of it substance nor by it entry was ought diminished He addeth That the doores and clefts were shut and fast barred And in this neuerthelesse lyeth the myracle that the true naturall bodie of Iesus Christ contrary to nature by the omnipotencie of God entered into a house close and couert without any opening wherein hee plainly sheweth that the myracle consisteth in the bodie of Iesus Christ And for this let the text be viewed which the Doctors wish to be well examined by the Ministers S. Ambrose in the place cyted saith That S. Thomas was abashed seeing the bodie of Iesus Christ to enter Per in via septa corporibus Et quod natura corporea per impenitrabile corpus sese infuderit inuisibili aditu Through closures impassable for bodies And that the corporeall nature powred it selfe by an inuisible meane through an impenitrable bodie S. Chrisostome in the Homely of S. Iohn Baptist and in his Cōmentaries vpon the Gospell of S. Iohn expresly saith Qui intrauit per ostia clausa non erat phantasma non erat spiritus vere corpus erat Quid enim dicit Respicite videte quia spiritus carnem ossa non habet quae me habere videtis Habebat carnes habebat ossa clausa erant omnia Quomodo clausis octijs intrauerunt ossa caro Clausa sunt omnia intrat quē intrantem non vidimus Nescis quomodo factum sit das hoc potentiae Dei He that entred through the closed doores was not a vain vision was not a spirit it was truly a bodie For what saith he Behold and see For a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me haue Hee had flesh hee had also bones and all thinges were shut How entered bones and flesh the doores being shut All thinges are shut and hee entereth whome wee see not entering How it is done thou knowest not and attributeth this to the power of God Where S. Chrisostome without difficultie as doth also S. Ambrose acknowledgeth the myracle to haue bin wrought in the body of Iesus Christ in that hee passed through the shut doores by the omnipotencie of God S. Ierome in the places quoted by the Doctors manifestly writeth that the body pierced the closed doores euen as the Poets recount that the fight of Linceus pierced the walls to see through without opening S. Ierome then reasoned of the nature of a bodie which the Bishop of Ierusalem infected with the heresie of Origen held not to bee truly in Iesus Christ after his resurrection because contrary to the nature of a bodie he had passed through the closed doores wherein Saint Ierome as the other Auncients declareth that it nothing derogateth from the nature of the bodie because it proceeded from a supernaturall power And in the first Booke against Iouinian hee saieth as much where he vseth these words Iesus entered through the closed doores Quod humanorum corporum natura non patitur Which thing the nature of humane bodies admitteth not So that with others he placeth the myracle in the body of Iesus Christ There is no doubt but S. Augustine in three places at the least maketh expresse mention that this body passed through the shut doores and that this was done by the power of God aboue the nature of bodies and that therefore heretikes ought not to denie the true bodie of Iesus Christ besides the passages De agone Christiano and of the Epistle Ad volusianum alreadie alledged in the booke De Ciuitate Dei he saith so also Epiphanius in the first booke vpon the 20. Heresie and in the 2. booke vpon the 64. Heresie against the Origenists declareth that it is but a spirituall body to wit which looseth nothing of it corporall substance but changeth getteth new qualities and spirituall perfections and meete for spirites as to passe through the walles without opening And giueth example of the body of Iesus Christ which pierced and passed through the closed doores after his resurrection And euen so iudgeth as others do the myracle to haue bene wrought in the body of Iesus Christ and that because he pierced the shut doores as a spirit albeit hee were a true body Cirillus Alexandrinus determineth also as the others this myracle to haue hapned in the body of our Lord which by the like myracle walked vpon the waters against the nature of a body by the power of God and reproueth all them which ought suspected by this deed that the body of Iesus Christ was not naturall By all these authorities the foure grounds proposed are true And therefore to corrupt the intention and faith of so many Auncientes and learned Christians to bring in a confusion of new Interpretations is ouer-great impudencie For besides the diuersitie of Caluin and Beza the Ministers to that ende produce two others to wit that the Angell opened the doore as though Iesus had not power himselfe to open it or else had need of opening And the other is that the opening was made which way he pleased And by such diuersities the Ministers sufficiently declare that they know not where to rest And which is worse they could not alledge one only auncient Father for author of their fictions or that is contrary to all the others from the Primitiue Church And to alledge that the Iron gate in the Acts of the Apostles opened to S. Peter of it own accord serueth nothing to the purpose For the Doctors neuer denied the same but haue well saide that the scripture spake not of the gates of the prison and if at the entry of Iesus Christ the doores had beene so opened the Euangelist had as easily said it as he said they were shut and as S. Luke saith that the Iron gate was opened of it selfe There is no doubt but peruerse spirits which doubted of the truth of the bodie of Iesus Christ in this world were not of opinion touching the passage of the doores with other Christians And although they thought to helpe and aide themselues herewith to support their heresies as of all the other myracles hapned
superfluitie or repetition in them or whether they be impertinent let the reader iudge But for this cause the Doctors will not cease to require eftsoones the Ministers that they bring some passage of the scripture to ground that God cannot make one body to be in two places seeing that this consequence is ouerfoolish and ridiculous God cannot lye Therefore can he not make one bodie to be in two places For so should they make their assumption Now God hath said and ordained that one body cannot be in two places therefore can he not make it so to be But neuer will they instruct by the truth of the Assumption or Minor Proposition the contrarie whereof hath bene sufficiently verified by many testimonies of the scripture The Doctors also require the Ministers to produce some Father yea some man euer reputed Catholique which hath dared to pronounce that God could not make one body to be in two places For full answere the said Ministers can bring forth none which euer hath vsed such a speech except S. Augustine but by them falsly alledged both touching the letter the sence of the letter The Doctors will not cease to beate both into the Ministers and also all persons that there is no place of scripture found nor booke of any auncient Father that God cannot make one body to be in diuers places Concerning the last article the Doctors haue resolued to shewe by the pure and expresse word of God expounded by common consent of all antiquitie that our Lord did institute the Sacrament and sacrifice of the Aultar and will teach the effect and vertue of the Masse according to the institution and ordinance of Iesus Christ And will make it also to be vnderstood that the Ministers haue polluted and defiled the Sacrament by Iesus Christ instiruted And that the Supper which the Ministers maintaine is no way the Sacrament but a prophanation of holy things containing execrable blasphemie whereof the whole world ought to haue horror Sunday the 12. of Iuly in the yeare aforesaid The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 22. day of Iuly about fiue of the Clocke in the enening Anno. 1560. THe Ministers before they answere particularly to the obiections and slaunders of the Doctors seeing that each way and causelesse they taxe them for blasphemers haue aduised to tell them in the beginning of theyr answere that to bee wronged by them they hold it not so great an iniurie nor themselues the more blasphemers for being so holden and reputed by them no more then our Lord Iesus Christ because he was so pronounced by Caiphas the high Priest and S. Stâ—phen to whom the like crime was imputed by the enemies of truth And Naboth who was likewise accused to haue blasphemed God and the king albeit he was innocent For it is the manner of all them which hate the truth and the light to blaspheme that which they vnderstand not as thereof write S. Peter and S. Iude and to giue the raines sometimes to their furie so that they shamelesly denie things most apparant and confesse others concerning the same which bee straunge and absurd Which thing is seene to haue befallen the Doctors about the Ministers whom they neither can heare attentiuely nor iudge of rightly And the full end of their purpose it seemeth is to contradict them indifferently in all things and to say without any examination or iudgement that whatsoeuer they produce is blasphemy and lies For the Ministers speaking of the omnipotencie of God according to that they haue learned thereof and is contained in the scriptures haue euer said that God is almightie in as much as he can do without any exception whatsoeuer he will and that there is no power in heauen nor in earth which is able to let alter or in any maner or wise hinder the full effect and perfect execution of his eternall vnchangeable counsailes But neuerthelesse that his omnipotencie must not be stretched without any discretion or distinction to all the things generally which men can conceiue or in their foolish phantasies imagine but to those onely which neither are nor can be contrarie to his iustice to his goodnesse to his wisedome nor consequently to his holy and eternall will wisedome and truth which is and euer shal be to doo all things well and wisely with number waight and measure and without that there is any inequitie disorder or contradiction in whatsoeuer he doth All which things being well vnderstood and considered will discharge the Ministers among all good and iust people from the sâ—aunders which the Doctors impose vpon them and falâ—ly published to make them odious to all the world and stirre vp publike hate against them Wherefore to make their slaunders more like to truth by adding and diminishing they change and alter almost the whole meaning of the Ministers well knowing that otherwise they could neuer haue meane to ground their slaunders nor to giue any colour or likelihood therevnto which thing shall now appeare by the deduction and particular confutation of the pretended blasphemies obiected to the Ministers by the said Doctors First the Doctors accuse the Ministers in that they haue said that the omnipotencie of God ought not to be measured but by the things onely which bee agreeable to his will and are not derogate either to his wisedome his truth his nature nor to the order which hee hath established in the world And to verifie their accusation and slaunder they breake in two this whole sentence and take thereof but the last part onely the which they haue seperated from those going before wherewith it was conioyned expresly by the Ministers the more clearely to expound and shewe how the omnipotencie of God ought to be knowne beleeued and adored of all the world Moreouer they haue not taken nor vnderstood the word Order as doo the Ministers Whereby the Ministers haue willed to signifie the estate and disposition which God by his prouidence and eternall and vnchangeable will hath established conserueth and entertaineth in all things rightly to gouerne and let that no confusion happen in his workes euen as S. Augustine hath defined it in his bookes De Ordine and hee himselfe hath vsed the same in the fift booke of his confessions Which the Doctors not vnderstanding haue reduced that which the Ministers thereof said to the ordinarie and wonted course of nature and to the mouing of creatures which bee in the world And to giue exception to the doctrine aforesaid they obiect the myracles which God doth aboue nature and thereof inferre that God doth and can doo many things against the order by him established and decreed Whervnto the Ministers answer that myracles albeit they be done beyond aboue the ordinary course of nature yet are they not done against the order aforesaid For as much as all things reduced to the prouidence and ordinance of God
all power without exception ouer the creatures and by written examples and straunge my racles wrought vpon their bodies against the nature of them Tertullian in his booke of the Resurrection saith To the end wee may beleeue that our God is more mightie then all lawe and nature of all bodies And addeth that they knowe God amisse who thinke that is not in his power which they in their braine cannot comprehend From whence it commeth as saith S. Cyrill that such wicked spirits doo reiect and condemne all things as impossible because they themselues do not vnderstand them Moreouer the Doctors suppose they haue sufficiently shewed as well by expresse scripture as by the expositions thereof taken from auncient Christians that it was not onely in the power of God to make two bodies in one place and one body without place equall to it greatnesse but that alreadie it was truly done in the birth of the body of our Lord Iesus Christ in his resurrection in the entrie through the closed doores and in the ascention aboue all the heauens And the Doctors haue shewed that there was like and semblable repugnancie in these deeds as in the other that is of one body in two places which is not exempted by the scripture from the power nor will of God more then the others to iudge it impossible to bee done and that there was neuer Christian before our time which dared to affirme that thing to be impossible â—nd out of the power of God although occasion was often offered to say it had they any way thought it impossible as the Ministers of the pretended reformed Religion do pretend Contrariwife the most part of the auncient authors of the Primitiue Church haue held it expresly to be in Gods power to place one creature in many places as held Saint Ierome against the heretike Vigillantius that the soules of the Saints might be present in many places with the immaculate Lambe our Lord Iesus Christ And the question was whether the said soules and spirits of the Saints were sometimes present in the Churches where their Sepulchres and monuments were And so much thereof holdeth S. Augustine in the 16 Chap. of the booke which he wrote of the due care of the dead where he writeth that soules by the power of their owne nature cannot be here belowe and in heauen or in many places but that it may be done by the power of God and will not resolue whether they vnderstand our affaires by such a presence in many places or by the reuelation of Angels or other meanes by the power and grace of God Also it is certain that in the matter of the holy Sacrament the auncient Fathers of the Church haue acknowledged and maintained that the bodie of Iesus Christ was in many places by the almightie power of God As doth S. Ambrose vpon the tenth of the Epistle to the Hebrewes and Saint Chrisostome in his 17. Homily vpon the same Epistle Where both two as it were in like words do write that although in many places there are many actions and oblations of the body of Iesus Christ neuerthelesse hauing regard to the thing which is offered to wit the true lambe and body of Christ Iesus that this sacrifice in many places offered is but one for so much as it is but one selfe-same thing to wit the true lambe and the true body of Iesus Christ which is but one and abideth whole in all places where it is offered They adde also that the oblations of him in diuers places is not an iteration of the sacrifice of the Crosse but in commemoration of him So that in the sacrifice of the Masse they acknowledge and distinguish two points The one which concerneth the realtie of the thing offered and they say that this is the true lambe and true body of Iesus Christ which then remaining intierly one is neuerthelesse in many places And the other concerneth the action and oblation of such thing by the Priest which is no iteration nor like action or oblation as that of the Crosse but diuerse in remembrance notwithstanding of that was made vpon the Crosse S. Chrisostome in the third booke of Priesthood cryeth out saying Oh myracle and power of God! He which sitteth on high at the right hand of his Father is held betweene the hands of each one in the Sacrament S. Augustine vpon the 33. Psalme sheweth that the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper was in two places that is to say in it visible place among his Apostles and neuerthelesse betweene his owne hands So that he himselfe did beare himselfe And before he concludeth the same Saint Augustine debateth how it was possible that one person should beare his body betweene his hands And after he had shewed that it was impossible for Dauid and cuerie creature he descended at last to the diuine power which was in Iesus Christ by the which to him alone among all men such myracle was possible And to the ende that men should not depraue nor wrest the meaning of S. Augustine because there is something which after a sort is carried as though it diminished the truth let them note that the purpose of S. Augustine is to shewe that Iesus by his almightinesse did carrie himselfe which to any creature was impossible Now had he onely in the Supper borne betweene his hands the figure of the Sacrament and signe of his body and not his true and reall body hee should haue done nothing but what the least man might do For each man can carrie betwixt his hands the figure Image signe or Sacrament of his body or sticke it in his hat without myracle or supernaturall power It be houeth then that the certaine maner which S. Augustine vseth doth nothing diminish the truth and this it is that betweene his hands he was inuisible and in a supernaturall maner of being reall neuerthelesse and true S. Basil in his Liturgie with the others auoucheth the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen and by his almightinesse notwithstanding to bee present in the Sacrament although the Ministers to proue it impossible for one body or one other creature to be in many places do chiefly build vpon S. Basil but the said S. Basil in the place by the Ministers alledged doth expresly protest not to speake but according to the naturall proprietie And in his Liturgie he declareth that it is not onely in the power of God to cause the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen and vpon the Aultar but that it is so truly done The Doctors to end this question of one body in many places say that such matter is not onely in the power of God but that it must so be beleeued to bee done in the holy Sacrament that God be not found a lyar and deceiuer in his word whereby Iesus affirmed to his Apostles that that which he gaue with his hands was his true body deliuered for vs. This is an argument which
in his deeds there should be imperfection And they further say that it should not be onely against the disposition and ordinary course of nature as the Doctors faigne to haue thought and vnderstood but also against the eternall and vnchangeable will of our God And as touching that which the Doctors to proue that God can do something against order do propose that he can chaunge and alter the order established in the world The Ministers confesse the same but they denie that in so dooing he should do any thing which were disordered As for example all faithfull and Christian men doo beleeue beleeue that God will renew at the last the estate of the whole world wherein there is nothing in the meane time which is not well ordained perfect and in all points accomplished The Doctors in the following article confound the distinction proposed by the Ministers in their answere betweene the will of God manifested and that he hath hidden in himselfe and is equall to his power as the Ministers before haue at large declared And the Doctors do falsly presuppose touching the reuealed will of God taking that generally which the Ministers haue graunted in some particulars onely to wit that God can doo more in ceraine things then he hath declared to will which none doubteth As saith S. Augustine in the booke of perfect Iustice that he cannot make a man to be perfect in this world and sanctifie him in such sort that there remaine no more in him any infirmitie or imperfection although hee hath neuer declared vnto vs by his word that hee would do it but contrariwise that the flesh in all the regenerate will alwaies refist the spirit so that all the time of their liues they shall be in many points imperfect But albeit in that and some other like cases God can do more then his will declareth which he hath manifested to vs in his word yet neuerthelesse can it not be said but that there be other cases wherein God hath reuealed his will vnto vs against which he can do or ordaine nothing As for example hee hath declared vnto vs that hee is one that he is immutable incomprehensible wholly good wholly iust wholly perfect and wholly true Against all which things which to vs are manifested and clearly proposed in his word impossible it is for him euer to thinke say do or ordaine Now the thing proposed and debated by the Doctors touching the being of one body at one instant in diuers places is comprised in that ranke beeing as is said contrarie to the truth of God Which shall serue for answere to the Doctors slaunders and to all that they haue proposed in this article Likewise in an other following article where they say that God not onely can but will also cause that one body occupie diuers places at one selfe-same time That shall be yet more impossible for them to proue then the power aforesaid for which they haue hitherto so much trauelled in vaine In their definition of one bodye in the Article following they contradict themselues when they say that the measures are essentiall vnto it and that it may neuerthelesse bee incircumscript for if it bee needfull that the dimensions whereof it is composed bee finite of necessitie it followeth therevpon that then it is finite limited and circumscript To that which they afterwards say that the reason which the Ministers haue taken of the Creed and alledged to proue that the body of Iesus Christ is in heauen in a place certaine is friuolous The Ministers say that the Doctors shewe therein what reuerence they beare to the word of GOD and his spirite who hath reuealed the same vnto vs and to the Apostles which declare them vnto vs. To iustifie Gracian and the Canon which the Ministers alledge of S. Augustine by which they proue that the bodie of Christ must necessarily be in a place certaine the Ministers bring yet for more ample confirmation the 4. booke and 10. distinction of the Maister of the Sentences who recyting the selfe-same passage of S. Augustine vseth the verbe Oportet and not Potest As touching that of Iustine which the Doctors alledge to proue the myracles which were then done that Iesus Christ appeared in the middest of his Disciples the gates being shut and that hee walked vpon the waters were done in his person The Ministers are amazed how the Doctors doo yet repeate the same For as much as the said Iustine as they haue before beene answered expresly saith that when the said myracles were done there was no chaunge of the body of Iesus Christ which thing had the myracles bene done in his person had bene necessarie In the meane time the Ministers confesse as they haue done often that the cause of the said myracles and the diuine power whence they proceeded abode in Iesus Christ As when hee healed the diseased which touched him and did the other myracles recyted in the Euangelicall Histories the which were done by him but not in him but in the person of them that weâ—â— healed And there is great difference betweene such myracles and those of his transfiguration and resurrection which were wrought by his onely power and in his proper person Vpon the importunate repetition which the Doctors make as well of the meanes of the birth of our Lord Iesus Christ as of the word Aphantos The Ministers for sparing of time and not troubling the readers send them back to their former answeres The Ministers much maruel that the Doctors to proue their pretended penetration of two bodies and of their measures wil ground their proofe and principal argument vpon the proper signification of the terme Penetrer For be it so that they will by this French word interpret the Greeke word Dierchestas or the Latine word Penetrare It shall bee euer impossible to proue their pretence And as it is also in the Acts of the Apostles Chap. 12. 10. It is said of the Angell and S. Peter that they passed the first and second watch And in S. Luke 4. 30. But they passed through the middest of them and departed And in S. Io. 4. 4. Now it behoued him to passe by Samaria In all which passages the Doctors shall not find that the word Dierchestai in the said passages alledged can bee any way applied to the penetration of dimensions And no more shall they proue that the word Penetrare which the old Translator hath vsed in the 2. Tymo 3. can be reduced to their said penetration The Ministers do adde that the Doctors ought not to hold it more straunge that Iesus Christ ascending into heauen in his finite and limited body an opening were made for his entrance therin then when he descendeth betweene the hands of the Priests singing their Masses For then as saith S. Gregorie the heauens do open to giue him passage Although after their imagination his body is then seperated from it measures and dimensions The Doctors should haue contented
that it was not needfull to adde that word expresly there For as much as there is no man so ignorant who hauing vnderstood that a body is circumscript but doth presently inferre that then it is comprised in a place certaine As touching the Camell if they be not contented with that alreadie said thereof then let them reade what Saint Ierome hath thereof written in his first booke against the Pelagians who expounding the words of Iesus Christ saith as followeth In this hath the Lord not said that it may be done but hath compared one impossibilitie with an other For as a Camell cannot enter through the eye of a needle so the rich shall not enter into the Kingdome of heauen Now if thou canst shewe that the rich man there entereth it will also follow that the Camell may passe through the eye of a needle And alledge not vnto me Abraham and the others which we read in the old Testament to haue bene rich and which being such were entered into the kingdome of heauen because they well vsing their riches and imploying them to good workes haue by that meane ceased to be rich Behold what S. Ierome writeth Thē as it is necessary after the saying of S. Ierome that for the saluation of the rich man there be a mutation and changing in his heart yea and that hee cease to be rich to the end hee may enter into the kingdome of heauen so also it behoueth that there be a chaunge in the Camell and that hee cease to be such that he may be made to passe through the eye of a needle As touching the article following the Ministers say that by the grace of God they may discerne the light from darknesse and falshood from truth Which is the cause that they cannot approue neither the arguments nor conclusions of the Doctors touching the being of one body in many places at one instant being well assured by good and certaine testimonies of the scripture that all whatsoeuer the Doctors will proue not else-where proceedeth then from the spirit of error and falshood Which wil retaine by that meane the impietie and Idolatrie which hee hath formerly established in the world to the ruine almost of all Christendome As touching the verbe Dierchesthai the Doctors finde themselues much hindred to saue their penetration which they can no way found vpon the proper signification of that word as hath bene shewed them by the passages produced vnto them not vpon any authoritie of the scripture To that which the Doctors alledge to proue that faith commeth in part of our selues not wholy of God that Nemo credit nisivolēs to wit that none beleeueth but willingly the Ministers answer that vnder our Maisters correction it is nought to the purpose for as much as this will and consent is of God who worketh in the faithfull both the will and the deed Which thing S. Augustine in one of his Epistles verie well teacheth where he saith That when God calleth men to saluation he findeth not in them any good will at all but that he worketh and createth it in their hearts if he wil finde it there And that of S. Paul which the Doctors alledge that we are coworkers with God serueth nothing for their purpose For the Apostle speaketh not there but of the Ministery And meant no other thing then what hee writeth therof more clearly in the 2. to the Corinths in these words We are Embassadors for Christ as if God exhorted by vs. And touching that which they adde that none of all the auncient Doctors euer taught that one body could not be in diuers places at one selfe-same time The Ministers say yea As they haue shewed in their former writings where the passages of S. Augustine Ad Dardanum and in the 30. tract vpon S. Iohn and others haue bene alledged The Ministers answere not but to two points onely of all that the Doctors haue touched in theyr aduertisement The first is that theyr Sermons theyr writings theyr discipline obserued in theyr Churches the censures which they passe for scandalous offences therein committed the care which they and the Superintendents haue to discouer reprooue and correct them the paine which they take to reforme whatsoeuer is disordered and the publique prayers which in all places they make to these endes defend them with all good people and iustifie them against the slanders of the Doctors The second is that the Doctors in theyr sayd aduertisement are deceiued in that they haue said that Abraham doubted of the promise Which is wholy contrary to that which the Apostle in the 4. of the Romanes thereof writeth Where in these proper termes he saith And he nothign doubted of the promise of God through vnbeliefe but was strengthened in the faith and gaue glorie vnto God For answere to the Doctors last Obiection made as they say agaynst the answere giuen by the Ministers to theyr former Question vppon the matter of the Supper Although the sayd Doctors do faigne not any way to affect delaie in the Conference and Dispute of the Supper and of the Masse yet can they not perswade any person of any iudgement that they haue not hetherto retyred and doo yet drawe backe from entering thereinto For notwithstanding some requests presented by Madame de Buillon and the Ministers some declaration which my Lorde the Duke of Niuernois hath made therevppon of his will and desire to bring them therevnto yet by all the meanes aboue-sayd hath it not beene possible to obtaine of them that all other thinges set apart they would in good earnest conferre with the Ministers of the two points aforesaid Which thing the Ministers perceiuing and not desiring to depart from them without conference first had therof haue often protested to dispute no more with them till these two Articles were first decyded and resolued And to this ende proposed certaine Theses by order and good methode as well of the one as of the other to the ende they should well aduise what in the sayd Theses they would gainsay and withstand The Doctors hauing dissembled the same in stead of pursuing of them doo propose other friuolous and vnprofitable questions taken and drawne from theyr Schoole diuinitie And although the Ministers had iust occasion to grieue that theyr Theses were omitted by the Doctors neuerthelesse to the ende they should haue no more shadowe nor colour of delaie the Ministers haue also answered to their last questions But now in stead of following theyr Answeres and impugning of them if any way they could they propose againe newe questions no lesse absurd and friuolous then the former Whereby each one may euidently knowe theyr hypocrisie and dissimulation And that pretending a willingnesse to conferre of the two foresaide pointes they doo in the meane time what in them possiblie lyeth to drawe them from the Conference thereof to the ende it may breake off before that this matter be cleared By meanes whereof the Ministers for conclusion and
bee briefe could in fauour and contemplation of his merits and dignitie obtaine of God remission of sinnes and the other graces needfull for them which trust in him and instantly desire him Secondly the Ministers say that there is no other sacrifice for sinne but that of Iesus Christ That he is the onely Lambe which beareth the sinnes of the world that there is nothing but his bloud whereby our filthinesse is washed To bee short that God taketh pleasure in no other sacrifice nor oblation and that hee requireth no other burnt sacrifice nor offering for sinne And that therefore Iesus Christe as it is written of him in the rolle of the lawe is come to doo and accomplish the will of God his Father Thirdly they say of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ that it was one onely and once offered by himselfe without that it was euer needfull afterwardes to repeate and reiterate the same considering the perfection and vertue thereof by which sinne is abolished and absolute and eternall sanctification obtained to all the elect as it appeareth in the 9. and 10. of the Hebrewes By meanes whereof no lesse blasphemy it is nor a thing lesse contrarie to the doctrine and meaning of the Apostle to approue the repetition and reiteration of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ then the pluralitie of sacrifices for sinne And if the Doctors would as they wontedly haue to disguise and colour such an abuse shewe forth their distinction betweene the propitiatory and applicatory sacrifice saying that the Priests pretend not in their Masses to sacrifice Iesus Christ for other end then to apply the merite of his death to those for whom they celebrate the same The Ministers answere that in so dooing they should attribute vnto Iesus Christ more then they do because all the fruite of his sacrifice commeth vnto vs by the application thereof As healing commeth not so much by the confection and preparation of the medicine as by the application of the same Furthermore the Ministers would willingly demaund of our Maisters by what meane the benefite of the death of Iesus Christ was applied to the Fathers before his comming seeing that as then they did sing no Masses Well seeth euerie man of any spirite or iudgement that such distinctions are friuolous and onely inuented to obscure the truth and dazell the eyes of the simple and ignorant For Iesus Christ who hath offered the sacrifice is hee himselfe which applyeth the same vnto vs by his spirite his word and his Sacraments To returne then to their former speech and declare why the Fathers haue called the Supper and all the action thereof a sacrifice It behoueth to note that there are many sorts of sacrifices in the Supper As the sacrifice of a contrite heart offered by publike confession of sinnes which there is made After the sacrifice of our body there offered by publike prayer which followeth the said confession Thirdly the sacrifice of praise there offered when they sing Psalmes after the confession and prayer After commeth the preaching of the Gospell which is called a sacrifice Rom. 15. then the confession and prayers ended the Minister presenteth himselfe to the people to preach vnto them the word of God The Almes which is an other kinde of sacrifice was heretofore brought forth in the Supper by the faithfull which would therby testifie not only their remembrance of the graces benefites of God but also their loue desire they had to relieue the necessities of their poore neighbors Besides all these Sacrifices there are yet in the Supper two particular sacrifices wherof mention is made in the writings of the Fathers The bread and the wine which were chosen and taken of the Almes brought thither for the poore and were consecrated that is to say deputed and appointed to the holy and sacred vse of the Supper The other is the memorie of the death and sacrifice of Iesus Christ celebrated and repeated in all the action of the Supper The which for this reason is called a Sacrifice by S. Iohn Chrisostome vpon the Epistle to the Hebrewes when he saith We make not euery day other Sacrifice then that of Iesus Christ. But rather saith he correcting himselfe we make the memorie of that Sacrifice S. Ambrose calleth it the memorie of our redemption To the end that we remembring our Redeemer may obtaine of him increase of his graces in vs. S. Augustine yet proposeth it more clearly vnder a comparison which he bringeth of the dayes of the passion and resurrection of Iesus Christ which he thus applieth when the Feast of Easter approacheth we vse oft times this maner of speech To morrow or within two daies we haue the passion or resurrection of Iesus Christ That cannot properly be vnderstood of the day wherein Iesus Christ suffered death which is long since passed but onely of the memorie of his death which is solempnized and celebrated as this day euery yeare A little after to appropriate his comparison he addeth Iesus Christ hath not he bene one only time offered in himselfe And neuerthelesse in the Sacrament of the Supper not only on Easter day but euery day also is hee offered to the people Also elsewhere The flesh and blood of this Sacrifice were before the comming of Iesus Christ promised by the figures of Sacrifices In the passion of Iesus Christ they were giuen and offered in trueth And after the Ascention of Iesus Christ into Heauen they are celebrated by the Sacrament of remembrance Of these and many other like passages one may deduct that the Fathers haue often called the Supper a Sacrifice by reason that in the same the memory of the Sacrifice of Iesus Christ is renued and celebrated The name of Sacrifice is by the Auncients often also applied to the Almes which the faithfull brought forth in the Supper As by Iustin Martyr in the second Apologie by S. Augustin in the 20. chap. of the 20. book Cotra Faust by S. Ciprian in the booke de Elimosina by S. Iohn Chrysostome Hom. 46. vpon S. Mathew Which thing may also be verified by the Canō of the Masse it selfe where it is said We offer to thy maiestie part of thy gifts benefits which ought to be referred to the Almes of the faithfull which the Minister in the name of the whole Church offered to God They haue sometimes also called the praiers there made Sacrifices As S. Ciprian vpon the Lords Prayer And Eusebius in the 7. of the Ecclesiasticall History Tertullian in the 3. booke against Marcion where alledging that written in Malachy of the cleane offering which ought to be made vnto God from the rysing of the Sunne to the going downe of the same saith that ought to be vnderstood of the Hymnes and praises of God Which S. Ierome expounding the passage aforesaid doth also confirme For conclusion of this matter the Ministers say that all the passages of the bookes of the Fathers wherin mention is
and proued to the expense of their bloud and losse of their liues So that the King and his Councell by his Edict hath declared them to haue bene very faithfull and well affected subiects to his Maiestie And wee must not maruell if the Doctors thus slaunder the reformed Churches for as much as the Christians in all times haue bin accused of like crimes by the enemies of the truth As it appeareth by the Apologie of Tertullian the booke of S. Augustine de Ciâ—itate Dei by the Tract of Saint Ciprian against Demetrius and by the booke of Arnobius which he wrote against the Gentiles But the Ministers much maruell how the Doctors are so ill aduised to alledge the suppers celebrated in the reformed Churches to verifie their accusations seeing that the same at this day being throughout publikely done in the eyes and presence of them that will behold them there is nothing therein hidden and whereof each one if he will may not easily be informed But this is the zeale and great charitie of my Lords our maisters whereof they haue heretofore protested that by inuocatioÌ„ of Gods name which so transporteth them to slaunder without shame or shewe those whose iustice in that matter shall answere for them before God and men Touching that which the Doctors â—â—erwards say that in the Supper of the Ministers no consecration is made of the matter of bread wine which be there proposed The Ministers do confesse that the bread and wine which be truly in their Supper are not consecrated in sort as the Doctors pretend to consecrate them in their Masse For so they approue not such a consecration But yet do they maintaine that there is in their Supper consecration of the matters aforesaid in sort as they in their articles and resolution haue heretofore very largely declared The Doctors for proofe and confirmation of that aforesaid do adde that it belongeth not to all persons indifferently to consecrate the matter of the Sacraments but to them onely which are ordained by the laying on of hands of the Romane Bishops wherevnto the Ministers for answer say that the first point they confesse and also as else-where they haue said that calling is necessarie to such a purpose But they denie vnto the Doctors notwithstanding that this calling is the imposition which they pretend and the Ministers assure themselues that their calling is more lawful and better founded then is that of the Doctors Whereas the Doctors propose in the article following that the Ministers haue not answered them clearly enough to their liking touching the parts of the Sacrament and of the word required for the consecration of the matter which therein is The Ministers answere that there is no doubtfulnesse obscuritie nor any inuolution in their writings sauing that which the Doctors will finde therein the iudgement whereof the Ministers referre to the vpright readers And yet they hold it not more straunge that the Doctors finde their writings obscure then did Saint Paul that his Gospell was hidden and couert to them which perished And in whome the God of this world had blinded the mindes To that of the presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper for which the Doctors require of the Ministers a more large declaration then that they haue giuen in theyr former answere The Ministers say that they haue theâ—evnto clearly answered albeit the Doctorâ— bee not satisfied with their 〈◊〉 whereat they nothing wonder knowing well it is not theyr custome to be contented if one yeeld not to them what they demaund and desire Which the Ministers haue not determined to do much lesse to exceed in their answer the limits and bounds of the scripture be it in this article of the Supper or in others but rather to follow as neare as possibly they can the phrase and maner of speaking of the same By means whereof for full answere the Ministers acknowledge no other eating of the flesh and bloud of Iesus Christ bee it in the Supper or out of the Supper sauing that which Iesus Christ himselfe declareth in the sixt Chapter of Saint Iohn Whosoeuer eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud hath eternall life Also He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud dweâ—leth in me and I in him Also As the liuing Father hath sent me so liue I by the Father And he that eateth me euen he shall liue by me To the last Article which is of Concomitance the Ministers answere that the demaund of the Doctors was not so hard but that they had well conceiued it But they dissembled the same because they would not loose time to speake and write of such dreames And they well thought that the Doctors were subtill inough to vnderstand that in their denying Transubstantiation it was not to proâ—e their Concomitance Now for their satisfaction they adde that they will know no more then that which Iesus Christ himselfe hath taught in his word That is to say that in the Supper to participate in his flesh crucified and bloud shead for the remission of sinnes it behoueth to take and eate the bread drinke the wine which be administred without any way diuiding or seperating the same Which thing is also forbidden by the Canons De Consecr Dist 2. C. CuÌ„ omne Crimen Finished on Wednesday the 14. of August in the yeare aforesaid This writing being sent the Ministers went shortly after towards my Lord of Neuers to shew vnto him that they for theyr part had largely treated of this matter but they well perceiued that the Doctors by theyr friuolous and impertinent questions hitherto sought not but to passe away the time without ought doing in the decyding of the Supper and of the Masse And albeit they fayned that such demaunds did serue for a preparatiue to this dispute yet was it to no other end but not to enter thereinto at all and to hold things in suspence vntill length of time should begin to be troublesome and by that meane all should break off That his lyking might be to make the Doctors vnderstand that without turning this or that way they should come to end the difference refuting that which the Ministers had maintained of the Supper and supporting that which they had condemned in theyr Masse Which thing he promised them to do Of which promise began the Ministers to hope thence forward for some profitable matter and seruing to the edification of the Readers and rooting out of the greatest abuse and error that is in the Romane Church Neuerthelesse shortly after was it bruted through the Citie that Doctor Vigor was fallen into a very daungerous disease and wherof was no hope he should hastâ—ly recouer which made the Ministers feare that they were frustrate of theyr hope And yet more did they feare when they vnderstood that the Doctor de Sainctes was the same time departed from Paris and gone towards Monsieur the Cardinal of Lorraine For they could not otherwise presume but that they