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A00637	A counter-poyson modestly written for the time, to make aunswere to the obiections and reproches, wherewith the aunswerer to the Abstract, would disgrace the holy discipline of Christ.	Fenner, Dudley, 1558?-1587, attributed name.; Stoughton, William, fl. 1584, attributed name.; Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624, attributed name.	1584 (1584)	STC 10770; ESTC S101936	77,534	204

in Fraunce the substaunce of Discipline shall be out of the worde confirmed and the controuersies betweene vs equally and orderly decided We will also be bounde to subscribe as they are His first quotation out of the Adm. doth set down that in a different letter which is not there to be found Which practize is done onely to disgrace vs vnius●ly with the Magistrate The other two sentences though we iudge them somewhat hardly set downe yet they must be charitably interpreted according to the course of their Booke the first of the trueth of Discipline not of doctrine the other of Ministers so called and inabled as God his worde doth allowe The rest is worth no aunswere the matter beeing handled before and Gualter being a party with you against M. Iewell and M. Nowel in that point though againste you in the question of Church election Now in stead of this heape of disagreementes which are at one with them selues let him accorde these following drawne from the wryters who are of his iudgement No man for any crime is to be secluded from any law fall vocation if he repent him and become a new man and there be no generall commaundements contrary herevnto But this doctrine is consonant to the whole course of the Gospell Yet we all hold that Traytours are not to be admitted Byshops or of the Queenes Guarde They maintain this speach of Ambrose on the 4. of the Ephes In the beginning it was permitted to euery one to preach the Gospel baptize and expound the Scriptures but when the Churche was enlarged certain Parishioners were appoynted and goucrnors and other officers ordayned in the Church Yet now Ministers maye not preach without a lisence It is defended by the former Booke that The worde of God is as effectuall when it is read as when it is preached and reading is preaching yet the Booke of Common-prayer preferreth Preaching before Homilies And himselfe sayth that Preaching is the most excellent meanes to ingender fayth This man condemneth and reiecteth Doctours as new yet the former booke Page 425. sayth that by auncient wryters A Catechistes office was necessarie in the Church and distinct from the Pastour The same booke fol. 700. in the marginall note hath Nothing ought to be reade vnder the name of Scripture but the Canonicall Contrary to the booke of Common prayer which appoynteth the Apocripha to be reade vnder the name of holy scripture Iewel saith that for one bishop to haue authority ouer an other is neyther by Christ Peter nor Paule nor by any right of God his word Yet they do by preaching and wryting still maintaine it by the examples of Peter Timothy and Titus In the aunswere to the authority of Peter Martyr it is sayde that in our Church religion is onely reformed to the quicke But the examiner sayth they see weightyer things in the Church wherat they may be greeued as other good men are Now we come to his questions which althogh they he captious and therefore by lawe they are not to bee aunsweared yet to shewe our sincerity in that which we holde we will make him an aunswere To the first we saye Discipline touching the substaunce is fully described out of the worde of God in the booke of discipline the treatise of ecclesiastical gouernment and in the most of the soundest writers of our time The second is answered partly by the former partly by this treatise In steed of this we aske him what be y ● writings which haue cōfuted by the scripture all those foresayd godly learned writings To the third we aunswere it is no sounde diuinity to exclude Christian Princes from their gouerment in Church-matters Concerning Excommunication he hath his answere before To the two other clawses let the Papists answere for they are malitiously imputed vnto vs. And we demaund of him whether it be sound diuinity that when the Prince will eate flesh in Lent or do such like shee must haue a Dispensation from an Archbyshop And that the writes of his Courts euen in causes ciuill and matters of instaunce should be in his owne name and not in the name of her most excellēt Maiesty The fourth is aunswered in the Treatise of the Eldership And we aske of him what pregnant proofe he hath either from scripture or Father that Ecclesiasticall Gouernment shoulde be exercised in a wholle Diocesse by a Chancelor or Commissarye beeing a meere lay-man To the 5. and 6. both wee aunswere That rebaptization is condemned by the Worde of God and that those hee speaketh of be maried folkes And wee require him to prooue by the Worde of God that in case of the necessity which they pretend a Woman may baptize And to prooue by the same that men may be forbidden to mary in Lent or such like times The seuenth is aunswered in that to the 5. and 6. And we demaunde of him how they can prooue it lawfull to admit a Popish priest fallen from the Gospell and still vnapt to teach To the eyght we aunswere there is the like reason of the Supper and of Baptisme And we require him to prooue by the Worde of God that a Deacon may baptize and when he hath proued that let him proue why hee may not minister the Supper also To the ninth we answere that to the Ministers there may be diuersity of rewardes giuen so long as none haue to little nor any too much And we require him to prooue by the Word of God that a Minister of the Gospell may carry the pompe of men of estate To the tenth we aunswere as is set downe in the Treatise that a Minister should be apt to teach We would haue him proue that any other may preache who is not apt to teach To the Eleuenth we answere affirmatiuely and require him to prooue by the Scriptures that an Archbyshop may put Preachers to silence for not subscribing to that which is not required by the lawe To the twelfth we aunswere it is not lawfull for one to be thrust out of his Ministery for shewing modestly in his sermons the inconuenience of vnleauened breade in the Lords Supper that all vsury as wee speake it whither biting or nibbling is vnlawfull And we require of him to prooue by the Worde of God that it is tollerable to suffer Drunkardes whoremongers ignoraunt men of occupation in the Ministry and for not subscribing where Law doth not enforce it or for the not vsing of some ceremonie to turne out godly learned Ministers And make a pitifull seperation of the Pastor and the flocke The Lorde giue vs to be of one minde and wherein we agree let vs proceede by the rule of loue FINIS Eccles 12. Iud. 9. Psalme 2. 2. Chro 16. 9 See admon ad lib. concord de mod agend Mat. 24. 48 Beza praefat before the new Testament Hermonia confess page 53. gal confess art 29. Genes 2.

of Israel be wise and vnderstand kisse the sonne least he be angry seeke the Lorde whilste he may be founde make attonement with him rest yee on God and follow his wayes For the eyes of the Lord behold all the earth to shew him selfe strong with them that are of perfect hart toward him And you ye reuerend fathers which take vpon you to rule the sterne of God his ship to your consciences be it appealed whether you thrust not out of your brethren faithful skilful marriners nourishing the idle vnfit wherby it is come to passe that thousands of soules are like to be drowned Let be appeled vnto your cōsciēces whether this your dealing be not the only cause that this church of England hath suffred such disquietnes and whether you ar not folowers of such as haue bin disturbers of the churches in other countries cōpare I pray you your cause with their cause and your proceding with their proceeding as namely let the practises of the diuines of PERGA in Germany for the maintaining of the errour of consubstantiation and vbiquity of Christe his bodie be compared with your striuing against the wholesome disciplin of Christ they were few as namely about six one bare the cheefest svvay you are not so many as that for your willes all the Churches should be troubled in England they helde the foundation and so doe you they had to doe with their godly brethren and so haue you they shrowded themselues vnder the shadovve of moste famons men as of Luther and Melancthon and so do you euen of moste blessed martyrs and very learned fathers they hauing tried diuers wayes to establish their errors at length deuised a subscription to a book called Liber concordiae thereby to drawe a secrete allovvance of that which openly they could not so vvel set one foote You after many molestations and vexations of your brethren euen to the turning avvay of many good schollers godly affected from the study of diuinity haue at the lēgth contrary to allavv of God and man offered violence to the consciences of your brethren by a forced subscription they first won the magistrat and made him their pretence vvhere their subtilty vvas espied and I pray God it be not layd to your charge for your like dealing pretences the Magistrates vvere hardly dravvne to like of their purpose maner of proceding so am I perswaded that yours cannot long bee couered they pretended vnity and intituled their subscription a Booke of Concord and by that meanes made great discord and dissention you cry out for conformity and good order and nothing lesse is the issue of your proceedings you cry the peace of the Churche and vvho knovveth not that if you vvoulde be humble to God and louing to your brethren and discharge your duetye to her Maiesty but that these stumbling blocks and meanes of dissention might long ago haue bene remooued For vve are assured that as the Magistrates vvith them did somevvhat staye their fury so if her Highnesse of her Godly disposition and accustomed clemencye vvith her honourable Counsellers had not bene some Bridle to your vnvvise indeuors there vvould hardly haue bin ere this time any peace for a faithfull minister But how proceeded they vvhat did they obtaine Euen by feare and authority they forced some to subscribe some they woone by faire vvords to some they granted in secreat limitatiō which after they in open denied some hauing subsci bed aftervvarde vvith great sorrovve and anguishe relented some they remooued from their charges and some they continued vvith long and variable molestation and finallye this vvas the good they brought to passe that the people were distracted many churches vntaught great broiles confusion in many places So I wold to God that euery of those that I may not say vvorse vvere not too too true in you onely let it be appealed vnto your conscience that you suspended and depriued them whom by lavv you ought to haue first resolued or endeuored your selues to haue so don and that by articles interrogatory you vvēt about indeed intangled some of your brethrē vvith that pretence of law which othervvise seemed to be vvanting And vvas this either charitable to your brethren or agreeable to iustice to your aduersary meete in a Bishop to those of his charge that one should be punished before his cause be equally heard And that hee may not haue a copye of the thinges layde to his charge but be driuen vpon an oth to ansvvere sodainly being depriued in a chamber to be sent avvay vvithout anye certayne knovvledge of the causes of his depriuation Let all men iudge hovv this may beseme Christian Bishops and graue fathers But hovv haue you made vnity conformity euen as one vvould open a doore to al horrible cōfusion vprore if by the merciful prouidence of God it had not beene staid and preuented It is high time therefore for you to repent and to shewe your selues as true Elders casting downe your crovvnes before the Lambe It is hard for you to kicke against the prick Remember vvhat is written If the euill seruant shall say in his hart my Master doth deferre his comming and begin to smite his fellowes and to eate and drinke with the drunken that seruants master will come in a day vvhen he looketh not for him giue him his portion vvith hypocrites there shal be vveeping and gnashing of teeth And all ye the inhabitantes of this lande turne yee to the Lord before it bee too late humble your selues before the throne of his mercye let euerye one chaunge his heart and amend his ovvne vvaies that the Lorde may haue pittye vppon vs and our enimies preuaile not againste vs. Pray yee for the peace of this Lande they that loue the Lorde cease not crying till he haue mercy vppon vs And let the remembraunce of our blessed soueraigne be in all your supplications that by the continuaunce of her happy prosperous reigne his glorious Gospell may shine more and more as in the dayes of king Iosias in brightnesse beauty among vs. And let this little treatise bee vnto thee gentle and Christian reader as a light and profitable glasse from day to day to looke in that it may be a meanes to teach thee and stirre thee vp to praye for and to seeke by all lawfull quiet and Godlye meanes the refourmation of some things in our Church For it is not the purpose thereof as God knoweth to minister matter of ciuill contention or that any man shoulde reioyce in the strife of brethren but with as much care as could be tendring the peace of the church to make apparant simply and briefly the truth of godlinesse in the thinges mentioned in this book according to the worde of God And here vve desire all men and you the reuerende Fathers of this land all godly brethren to whom this may come to iudge charitably of this

matter of the Sacrament of the vbiquiti other points may be reiected of y e papists and their reason must be held as good because they haue as learnedly and truly gathered our diuersities betweene our selues inconueniences following vppon our Doctrine as this man hath doone in the matter of Ecclesiasticall Discipline Next vnto this fowle iniury done vnto religion his iniury done vnto so many worthy lerned men which haue so well deserued of the Church of God nay his inuiry done vnto all the reformed Churches in setting them together by the eares in slaundering them to like of vphold and maintain such a gouernment as hath no witnesse of the Scriptures or ancient times thogh they main tayne it by both such as bringeth with it not onely a maze and labarinth vnto all common-weales but which is at flat ennemity with Princes ouerthroweth their gouernment in Ecclesiastical causes and by sudden alteration turneth euery thing vpsie-downe Which reproch though it be so apparaunt as his owne conscience smote him with the gylce of it so as he would fayne auoyd the shame of it by colourable protestation and that before God not to derogate from any tollerable order established in these externall matters yet he cannot chuse but charge them that they make Princes raunge with the rest of their Seniours and Church-gouernours and that they debar princes of that right of gouernment in matters and ouer persons Eeclesiastical which the word of God al the examples of godly kings of Iudae doe aford vnto vs. The falsehoode of which is not onely manyfest by this witnes of haste as good as a thousand agaynst him but also by the testimonye which so manye worthy wryters nay Princes and Magistrates in their practise and confessions haue giuen to the same Now when the Christian Reader hath considered of this iniurye donne vnto GOD and his Church to vnderstande also firste that these are but Rapsodies gathered at leasure boasted of cast in the teth of some long since such as had other-wyse been vttered ere this but that no market would serue so well this Secondly that although He do as Sanballet send vs in wryting worde that we woulde builde vp the wall of Ierusalem and make our selues kinges when these thinges come to passe and that we set vp Prophetes which may preach of vs at Ierusalem there is a King at Iuda euery Pastor will be Pope yea and aboue the Prince in his Presbytery Yet with good Nehemias we can truely aunswere There is none of these thinges done but thou dost inuent them in thine hart and that all this is but to cast a feare vnto vs for they say their handes shall be weake from this worke that they perfect it not And therefore that our remedy is seeing we vse no meanes but by supplication but by manyfestation of the truth and seeke for nothing but Discipline which by the booke of ordination we promise to further according to our power euē to pray with the sayde Neh. Confirme O God our hands The first contradiction interlased with a lie that they make him Antichrist which refuseth the Presbytery is y ● we vrge this as perpetual out of the place of Timothy which Caluin doth referre to his ministery which is no contradiction seeing if it be referred to his office yet it being a peece of Timothies office to procure that the thinges which he had learned of Paule shoulde be kept according to their nature and difference perpetually in the Church it sufficiently prooueth the matter in hande otherwise how Could he keepe it vntill the comming of Christ Like to that is the allegation out of the French discipline that those articles which were there contayned touching discipline are not so setled amongst vs but that the vnity he should say vtility of the church so requiring they may be chaunged which I saye is a meere cauill for they speak not nor meane not it of the substance of discipline contained in y ● word but their maner of setting it downe according to the circumstaunces of their time as is plaine by Their title which calleth it but the firste cast brought of the substance of it as it is contayned in the Scriptures of the Apostles Which substaunce they were not so mad to change though they iudged they might alter thē in many points of circūstances For these sily contradictions let him take these monstrous ones proceding from this y ● they wil not acknowledge the perfection of y ● scriptures cōcerning discipline One nūbring vp as a circumstance to come clothed or naked to the supper of the Lord saith of those circūstances None of these circumstances are commauded in the Scriptures nor can by necessary collectiō be granted yet he knoweth it doth necessarily appertaine to comelines The next is that the Abstractor saith the Ministers ought not to wrest any thing into the gouernment of the church without due authoritie from the magistrate which he would haue contrary to that of the admonition M. Cartwright that our life must not be deare as thogh we can not by suffering if need were for so the condition is put aforde that without doing any thing which hath not due authority from the Magistrate His mingling of our sentence with Brownes is but a malitious proceeding Seeing him-selfe testifieth after that wee doe more then mislyke his doinges and writinges in respect of such proceedinges Like to this is that he alleadgeth out of Iunius that if the Prince doe hinder the building of the Church the people may by force of armes resist him Which as it is not in the Page which he noteth nor in all his booke of Discipline so how malitious a slander it is brought vp vpon so worthy a seruaunt of God maye appeare by his whole treatise of the ciuill Magistrat Lib. 3. cap. 5. Where hauing shewed how the Magistrate cannot alter the substantiall poyntes of Discipline and handled that question to one obiecting What shall the Church doe if it be by the Magistrates authoritye commaundement threatning and violence compelled Hee aunsweareth If the Magistrate ordayne any thing contrarie to God his worde that the Ministers shoulde plainly and modestly declare with Paule that they can do nothing against but for the truth But if the thinges be not contrarye to the truth and necessitie that the Churches are bound rather patiently to beare it then to bring the holy ordinaunce of God their body and the common peace into daunger Concerning excommunication shall be spoken after The booke he nameth of obedience I haue not The other matter out of the book deiure Magistratum as not pertayning to vs I purpose not to meddle with especially considering he handleth it more like a Lawyer then otherwise But after he hath alleadged testimonies to prooue that Which none but Papistes and Annabaptistes will deny that it is traiterous to teach the people that they shoulde owe no

it which is the aduancement of vertue the beating downe and suppressing of sinne and impietie the keeping of the Church in a vnity and quiet order which beeing the effect of Christes kingdome and his gouernement hee maketh them the essentiall partes of it So that he hath not learned yet to put a difference Betweene the kingdome of God and Gods righteousnesse established by it Nor betweene the two petitions of the Lordes prayer that his kingdomr may come and the fruite of this That his will may be done in earth as in heauen Againe he graunteth the essentiall partes of Christes kingdome and outwarde policie of the Church but he denyeth any exact forme as though there can be essentiall poy●tes of outwarde gouernment perpetuall and yet they shal haue no perpetuall forme Can there be an outwarde essentiall thing without a forme Or can the essence be perpetuall and changeable and the form variable and mutable Can there be an immutable outward gouernment without immutable outward callinges offices and workes This is to giue a man without members a skinne for a bodye without bones and fleshe Lastly how iniurious is this vnto Christ he wil acknowledge the benefit must be had but he will not acknowledge the hand wherby it is giuen Christ is wise inough still to administer and rule and that he will gyue him leaue to doe But y ● he is wyse inough to doe it by his owne meanes that hee being The onelye Lorde should appoynt the diuers administrations of his Church alwayes y ● his spirite Shoulde minister fully sufficient diuersitie of giftes that one God shoulde worke the sufficient diuers faculties alwayes That is vntollerable false seditious hurtfull to the estate He can allow the people shoulde bee taught and exhorted and haue the Sacramentes but whether by Readers or by Teachers by reading Homilyes or by Pastours by men or women God his word doth not define the people must be ruled but whether by Gouernours appoynted by Christ or by men He must relieue his pore with almesse but whether by his Deacons or others that he muste seperate betwene the cleane and vncleane cast out the wicked but whether by his Church and Eldership or some other muste by no meanes be determined As if one should say it is essentiall and perpetuall that we haue our enteraunce into Christe and his Church our growing and nourishing in the same sealed vp perpetually but that it shall be done onelye by Baptisme and the Lordes Supper and not also by confirmation that maye not bee graunted Christ was wyse inough and willing inough to ordayne the effects but not the instrumentes If he saye he commaunded them saying Baptize doe this So we say he commanded the other saying I haue set Teachers Gouernours saying let the Doctor abide in Teaching the Pastour in exhortation the Elder in ruling the Deacon in distributing the Church euen the Eldership to be tolde and to excommunicate Lastly it is as if one should say I can wel allow her most excellent maiesty for her excellent wisedome to see the commonwealth administred iustice executed matters rightly pleaded determined but y ● this shalbe don by her most honorable coūsel by her chief iustices by her iustices of peace by her Shiriefes and Balifes by her Sergeants at the lawe that I can not like or allow of As for y ● place of Tertulian it is plaine he meaneth it of the discipline in the course of life which is chāgeable as may appeare by the testimenies alledged in the first point His next contradiction is concerning y ● means of liuing that y ● French church wold haue the rentes and reuenewes deliuered to the Deacons so the minister receiue his stipend but the booke of Discipline T. C. and the Admonition speaketh earnestly againste those who gape after Church-liuings and turne it to their purses and pleasure as though these could not stande together that they shoulde bee deliuered to the Churche onely and turned to holy vse that it shoulde bee administred by the Deacons or as though the playnesse of the one in reproouing an abuse bee contrary to the good order taken by the other Howsoeuer it be so the Christian Magistrate see the poore cared for by the Deacons and that they who preach the Gospell liue of the Gospell and that the Lord be thus honoured with our substance we acknowledge he doth his duety towardes the Church But if these want and the thinges giuen to that vse bee turned to the priuate commodity of some there is a defect in that behalfe But nowe this valiant champion will ouerthrowe the Eldership by such weapons as followe for T. C. Doth teach it from the Iewish Synedrion and out of the Talmud which according to Bonauentur and Danaeus handled ciuill thinges which our presbytery may not doe To which I aunswere that T. C. doth not fet it from y e Talmude but from the word of God as his whole disputation doth shew in that pointe onely hee sheweth that this presbytery hath beene continued vnder the Lawe and vnder the Gospell which is true and agreeed vppon by all three which he speaketh of It is also as fals y t Bonauenture speaketh so of the Ecclesiasticall Senate by it selfe for that which he noted is of the ciuill and politike synedrion Cap. 13. but hee maketh afterward when he handleth the Ecclesiastical pollicy of that time besides the priest and besides the Teachers in euery Sinagogue Senetors which inquired of theire manners which is manifeste by Exod. 4. 29. Exod. 17. 5. 2. King cap. 6. 32. Ier. 19. 1. Ezech. 8. 1. and Neh. 8. 5. Where are Elders occupied in Ecclesiasticall matters assistant to the Prophets and teaching Leuites and yet distinguished from them so as they medled not with the Word Danaeus in deede sayth they medled somtimes w t ciuil administrations which ours do not which thing yet maketh no contradiction to vs seeing we say with him that to ours is giuen by Christ Ecclesiastical authority only But the truth is y t they were then plainly distinguished some being for the matters of God and some for ciuill causes the matters of the king Now the cause of this which Danaeus speaketh of was that in waighty matters both came together because the politike lawes of the Jewes were for the moste part defined and set downe in the Worde of God they the Priest Leuites and Ecclesiasticall Elders were there to pronounce the sentence Ecclesiastically that is to pronounce y e sense of Gods word in y t cause the Princes cheefe of the people and ciuil Senate were to pronounce Ciuilly and iudicially the sentence of death or such like according to the sense of the Scriptures Secondly by the causes that when the Ecclesiasticall Senate commeth to the Ciuill the matters are thus mixt as Jeremy 26. 16. But when the matter is Ciuil meerely and no Question of the sense of the

not only without reason but also sence contrary to his professed knowledge to proclayme warre amongst the Churches for this matter of circumstaunce when they all haue the substaunce agreed vppon in Gods worde and doe not tye them-selues or others to the particuler circumstaunces It is also as absurde that he setteth downe as a contrarietie to the election of the Elders and people that they allowed the Officers chosen by the Consistorye or by voyces of the people or by one Minister as thogh that were derogatory to a right order to ratifie that by good authority which was at the first imperfectly donne Yet that is most absurde which he doth obtect againste the authour of the Abstract as though he were contrarye to this order because he woulde haue the people giue their consent seeing as hath beene shewed these may not only agree but ought vnseperably to be ioyned togeather in Church-lections For if eyther by silence or otherwyse they signifie their consent and the election be not made but sufficient deliberation be giuen them to shew iust causes of their dislyke or gladly to accept them It is all one as hath beene prooued in the treatise to that purpose In the next obiection he must first prooue that we dissent before he haue an answere for to haue it done by the Consistorye and to adioyne a conference are not contrary The next is answered in the treatise of the election of Church-officers The next is an vntruth For the confirmation De la dis Eccles sheweth that the people giue their consent and approbation according to the 14. of the Actes Page 233. The next we take but for a poore cauil grounded vnlesse hee make it appeare which he speaketh of some which hold it lawfull to picke a quarrel and leaue the ministery vpon a slaunder In deed if at one mans pleasure for truthes sake they be put out to seeke an honest way to lyue is not vnlawfull nor contrarye to the decree of the French Churches that they be chosen to be Ministers their whole life vnlesse they be discharged lawfully vnto which decree all agree The next of depositions receiueth the same answere which the elections doe for the authority which electeth must be that which deposeth and the Discipline of Fraunce meaneth no otherwise And of Excommunication ther is the like iudgement The Author of the Abstract can best expound his meaning and his words bear no such collection as hee gathereth For in saying the Minister may do it and that by Lawe in his charge aswell as the Byshop in his Diocesse He doth not authorize the Byshoppe to doe it alone but with due consent to whome it doth appertaine In the nexte when hee sheweth who that some bee which make decision of controuersies incident to euery Presbytery otherwise then if they can with contentation agree of the trueth amongst themselues we will giue his aunswere to it In the meane time we iudge of it as of the rest that it is vntrue The like of the two other excepting Brown for whome he hath his aunswere and of the next about God-fathers Concerning the next poynt the which he sayth of the Churches of Fraunce that they think it lawfull to baptize without an assembly I can not beleeue it vnlesse I haue better direction then the 7. article of their Discipline in which I can finde no such thing though I finde some other articles there which he hath aledged thence wherefore I feare that it is a fiction Concerning Holy-dayes let him firste shew that the Churches obserue them in maner of a Sabboth wholly to rest from their labour and then T. C. with his reasons or the churches with theirs must giue place to the truth The diuersity about popish Priestes is aunswered before in the tretise of that matter The next are but slaunders to which he gyueth no credite by anye testimonye and are confuted before in the treatise of the Doctor It is also a manifest vntruth that T. C. mislyketh wholly That anye are suffered to preach nor hauing a Pastorall charge For he speaketh generally of such as haue no charge neither Pastorall nor Doctorall For he would haue both tyed to a certayne place yea the Elders Preaching in other mens cures or charges wherevnto men are not lawfully called wee condemne according to the iudgement of the French Churches neither doth he note any wher we might finde the contrarie In ordaining of ceremonies the admonition meaneth no otherwise than the Frenche Churches for though the Eldershippe abollishe those which are vnprofitable yet it may be don with consent alowance of other Churches for which cause hee entreateth of conferences page 30. 31. c. That hee saith of the admonition as though they misliked a prescript forme of prayer is an vtter vntruth for there are not anye wordes which shewe they mislike a prescript forme of prayers As for vnleauened bread it is but proper to Geneua onely now our Church hath alowed the other why should he then make any difference or strife about it The matters of mariage or such like heere named as they are handled with vs are ciuil but as they become doubtfull in any question of God his worde or what is expedient for the Church to doe for auoyding of offence belongeth vnto the Ecclesiasticall seigniorie and so that difference is aunsweared In the other also it is defended as vnlawfull for a Minister of the Worde to be occupied in Ciuill affayres Againste this he in vaine bringeth an exception in Elders which rule onely Neither is it simplye a Ciuill thing to giue testimonies in writinges for to doe it for matters Ecclesiasticall as for soundnesse of fayth for assuring them to be receiued which were excommunicate or such like it is an Ecclesiastical not a Ciuill action Touching the order of the French Church for publishing of Bookes we consent that where the Discipline is established and an order taken that men with modesly in a Synode may be sufficiently heard and satisfied that it ought to be in force and as an Eeclesiasticall order obeyed from which yet a man may swarue being dryuen to gyue defence to the truth of God The next setteth his conceits in the laughter of all men For maye we not mislyke that he which ordayneth shoulde bydde the ordayned receaue the holye Ghoste which he can not gyue nor hath promise that his imposition of handes shall distribute auye gifts and yet alow that that place for instruction be repeated and intreased of Concerning his long srory of subscription this may be sufficient shortly to aunswere both to shew our ●uitye in iudgement with the Churches and also to satisfie the Church of England First therefore we say that we haue alwayes beene readye according to our dutye to subscribe to her Maiesties supreame authority and to the Articles of religion concerning the doctrine of fayth and of the Sacramentes which is all that is requyred by law Secondly when as it is