Oracles of the Prophets the countenance of the Church is figured when at the first rising againe shee is renued into the ages of the moneth shee is hidden by the darknesse of the night and by little and little filling her hornes or right ouer against the Sunne rounding them doth shine with the light of cleere brightnesse The sixt assertion The false and malignant Church is oft time 〈◊〉 visible conspicuous and ample then the true Church and consequently eminent Visibility amplitude and splendor is no certaine note of the true Church The glorious face and outside of a Church which dazleth our aduersaries eyes was rather against Michea then for him all the Prophets prophecied c. It was rather against Eliah then for him for there were 450 Priests of Baal besides Câ—â—marims and hee took no notice in a manner of any seruant of God but himselfe It was rather against Ieremy then for him when all the Priests took counsell against him saying The law shall not depart from the Priest c. Nay the glorious outside and face of a Church was rather against Christ himselfe then for him All the chiefe Priests and Elders took counsell against Iesus Since Christs death to instance onely in one sort of Hereticks the Arrians vndoubtedly would haue carried the truth away by voyces and outward pomp for some hundreds of yeres if that were a safe triall for Saint Ierome complaineth Tunc vsiae nomen abolitum est tunc 〈◊〉 fidei damnatio conclamata est 〈…〉 Arrianum se esse miratus est Then the name of substance was abolished then the condemnation of the â—â—cene Creed was proclaimed the whole world sighed and maruelled that it became Arrian Vincentius putâ— theâ— case what was to be done Quando saith he Arrianorum venenuÌ„ non ià m portiunculam quandam sed pene orbem totum contaminauerat adeo vt prope cunctis Latini Sermonis Episcopis partim vi partim fraude deceptis caligo quaedam mentibus offunderetur When as the poyson of the Arrians did not infect a little portion but in a manner the whole world insomuch that almost all the Latine Bishops partly by force and partly by cunning were intrapped and had a kinde of mist cast before their eyes These things beeing so may we not iustly vpbraid the Papists as Gregory Nazianzen doth the Arrians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c Where are they now who vpbraid pouerty vnto vs and boast of their wealth who define the Church by multitude and despise the little flock of Christ who honour the sand and reproach the greater lights of heauen who treasure vp Check-stones and passe by Margarites The seauenth Assertion When there is a difference betweene the visible professors of Christianity and each party pretendeth it selfe to bee the true Church in opposition to the other the onely sure and infallible meanes to know which of the dissident parties are of the true Church is by trying their doctrine by Scripture To this touch-stone of truth the Prophet Esay directeth vs To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this Word it is because there is no light in them And our blessed Sauiour Search the Scriptures for in them you think yee haue eternall life And S. Peter We haue also a more sure word of Prophesie vnto which you doe well if yee giue heed as to a light that shineth in a darke place By this rule the Bereans examined the doctrine of the Apostle searching the Scriptures daily whether those things were so Saint Austen best approoueth of this course to come to the knowledge of the true Church In Scripturis Canonicis requiramus Ecclesiam in the Canonicall Scriptures let vs search the Church And Non audiamus Haec dico Haec dicis sed audiamus 〈◊〉 dicit Dominus Sunt certi libri Dominici quorum authoritati vtrique consentimus ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam Let vs not heare I say this or Thou saist this but let vs heare This saith the Lord. There are certaine bookes of God to whose authority wee both consent there let vs seeke the Church And after much debating the matter hee concludeth the Chapter with these words Ergo in Scriptur is Canonic is eam requiramus therefore let vs seeke her the Church in the Canonicall Scriptures And Quisque nostrum non in iustitia sua sed in Scripturis quaerat Ecclesiam Aug. ep 48. Saint Basil directeth vs to the same course 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 With whomsoeuer doctrine agreeable to Scripture shall bee found the truth is alwaies to be adiudged to bee on their side To forbeare more allegations the learned Author of the imperfect work on Mathew hearing the name of S. Chrysostome deliuereth a firmer conclusion in formall and expresse tearmes and that seuerall times shewing that his iudgement was settled and resolued vpon it 〈…〉 modis â—stendebatur quae esset Ecclesia Christi et quae Gentilitas nunc autem nullo modo cognoscitur quae vera Ecclesia Christi nisi tantummodò per Scripturas quare quia omnia haec quae sunt proprie Christi in veritate habent et haereses illae in schemate similiter Ecclesiam similiter scripturas similiter baptismum similiter eucharistiam et caetera omnia demâ—m ipsum Christum Volens ergo quis cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia vnde cognoscat in tanta confusione multitudinis nisi tantummodo per Scripturas Et pòst Qui ergò vult cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia vnde cognoscat nisi tantummodò per Scripturaâ— Formerly it was shewed many waies what was the true Church of Christ and what was Gentilism but now it is knowne no other way which is the true Church of Christ but onely by the Scriptures Wherefore because all these things which properly belong vnto Christ in truth euen those heresies haue in shadow in like manner the Church in like manner the Scriptures in like manner Baptisme in like manner the Lords Supper and all other things finally Christ himselfe Hee therfore who is desirous to know which is the true Church of Christ whence should hee know it in such a great confusion of multitude but onely by the Scriptures And a little after Hee that will therefore know which is the true Church of Christ whence should hee know it but onely by the Scriptures It is obserued by those who follow the Law that when a Defendant excepts against the iudgement iurisdiction of the Court he certainely despaires of his cause in that Court. And what can wee interpret it in our aduersaries but distrust and despaire of their cause to detract as they doe from the perfection and except against the authority and sufficiency of Scripture for deciding all controuersies And heer I will be bold to turne the Iesuite Campions roring Canon against him and his fellowes Cùm multa sint quae aduersariorum in caâ—sa diffidentiam
lineis materiam clausimus inter quas congredimur According to which prescription D. Featly as soone as he receiued the Question from M. Fisher returned it in another paper in which he briefly stated it The fift rule is Saint Austens to obserue Logick Forme in Disputation Quid tu disputas si disputare non noueris Quid est aliud dialectica quam peritia disputandi Nonne etiam dialectice Christ us cum Iudaeis egit Why dost thou offer to dispute if thou knowest not how to dispute What is Logick but the Art of disputing Did not Christ dispute Logically with the Iewes And a little after Dialecticam nunquam doctrina Christiana forâ—â—dat The Christian doctrine neuer feareth Logick According to which prescription D. Featly desired that both the opponent respondent should bee tied to Logick Forme for nimble wits like Proteus will turne themselues into all Formes and vnlesse they bee held fast and in a sort forced and wrung with the knots of Logicall Arguments they wil neuer be brought to agnize the Truth Aristotle speaks of certain Organa mechanica artificiall Frames vsed in Greece quae teneros infantium artus coercerent ne in praua deflecterentur sed concinna illorum forma nihil foedum aspectu aut distortuÌ„ praeferret which frames serued to keep straight the limbs and joynts of the infants that they should not goe away but keep due proportion and a comely shape Such artificiall instruments are Logick Formes they serue to make vs to walk straight 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 neither treading inward nor outward in our discourses To dispute without Logick is to rule without a Ruler or draw a Circle without a Compasse or steer without a Card. In which respect although M. Fisher were very vnwilling to be bound to his Logicall behauiour yet D. Featly had great reason to require it of him because he bound himself to it proposing all his Arguments in Logick Form and disposing them in Logick Method premising Arguments à priori before his Argument à posteriori and Syllogismes before his Induction beginning at the top in the first Age and descending to the later according to the order of time nature dignity The most cunning Work-man that euer wrought with the tools of naturall wit forceth all Arguments into two kindes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or reprehensorie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or demonstratiue Elencticall or reprehensiue driue at an Aduersary Dicticall or demonstratiue aime at a Thesis or Position of our owne The former sort serue to beat downe an enemies weapons on his owne head the later to make good our owne ground The former may not vnfitly be called 〈◊〉 Arguments the later Simply and directly proouing D. Featly in this Disputation made vse of both first of Elencticall Arguments to discouer the weaknes of his Aduersaries and then of Dicticall to shew the strength of the Protestants cause and the Visibility of their Church in all Ages The first Argument of the former sort was couched in these words Although divine and infallible faith is not built vpon deduction out of humane History Which may be thus propounded at large Whosoeuer propoundeth such a Question in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Testimonies and Records betraieth his grosse ignorance in Diuinity But M. Fisher propoundeth a Question in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Histories and Records Therefore M. Fisher betraieth his grosse ignorance in Diuinity The Maior or first Proposition was prooued by Bellarmine's confession Historiae humanae faciunt tantùm fidem humanam cui subesse potest falsum Humane Stories and Records beget onely an humane faith or rather credulity subject to error And it may bee more strongly confirmed by the testimony of Tertullian Aliunde suadere possunt de rebus fidei nisi ex Literis fidei Can they otherwise perswade in matters of faith than out of the Writ of faith And Saint Augustine Solis Canonicis debeo absolutum sine vlla recusatione consensum I owe absolute consent without any refusall onely to the Canonicall Scriptures The effect cannot exceed the cause nor the conclusion both the premises and therefore wee cannot build a diuine and infallible conclusion such are all conclusions de fide vpon meer humane testimonies which are not of infallible truth All other humane Histories come short of the Apocryphall Books of Scripture for you rank them with the Canonicall Scriptures and we giue them the next place to them yet the testimonies out of the Apocryphal of Scripture may not be alleaged to ground any conclusion of faith vpon them as Ruffinus affirms in expresse words Quae omniae legi quidem in Ecclesiis volucrunt non tamen proferri ad authoritatem ex his fidei confirmandam All which Books they would haue read in the Churches but not be produced to establish faith out of them The Minor or Assumption is thus prooued The perpetuall Visibility of the Church is a conclusion of faith euidently grounded as is confessed on Christ's promise in Scripture But M. Fisher requireth in his Question the perpetuall Visibility of the Church to be proued out of meer humane Authors and Stories expresly excluding Scripture Therefore M. Fisher propoundeth a Question in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Histories and Records The second Elencticall or reprehensiue Argument was couched in these words Although this Question be grounded on vncertain and false sâ—pposals c. Which may be thus propounded at large That Question which is grounded vpon an euident false supposall needeth not to bee discussed but ought rather to be exploded But M. Fishers Question is grounded vpon an euident false supposall Therefore M. Fishers Question needeth not to be discussed but ought rather to bee exploded The Maior or first Proposition is euident in it self for to such a Question there needeth no other Answer to be giuen but simply to deny the supposall The Minor or second Proposition was thus proued First if the names of all Professors are not nor euer were vpon Record then M. Fishers supposall is false viz. that A Protestant Church could not haue been visible in former ages vnlesse the names of all visible professors can now bee shewed But all visible professors names are not nor euer were on record as it is certaine and confessed by A. C. p. 33. Therefore Master Fishers supposall is false viz. that A Protestant Church could not haue been visible in former ages vnlesse the names of those visible Professors could be shewed Secondly if all ancient Records are not now extant then it is no good Argument to say The names of visible Protestants in all ages cannot now bee shewed vpon Record therefore they were neuer vpon Record But all ancient Records are not now extant Therefore it is no good Argument to say that because the names of
that the Thunder of the Popes excommunications so blasted the Hugonotes that their faces were growne as black and vgly as the diuell that FRANCIS IVNIVS had a round clouen foot like an Oxe that BEZA recanted his religion before his death that the reuerend Doctor KING late Bishop of London died a Papist or that the Protestants at Black-â—ryers by knocking certaine pins out of the timber caused that late lamentable fall of the floar wherin about 200 Papists were assembled and neere a 100 slaine They who teach pious frauds and write of holy hypocrisy and doctrinally deliuer the lawfulnesse of equiuocation may securely report whatsoeuer maketh for the Catholique Cause The more incredible and palpable the Lie is the more merit in him that maketh it and in them that beleeue it Popery is a doctrine composed of Lies and Philosophy teacheth that all things are fed and maintained by such things of which they are bred and made The aliments of Popery must bee correspondent to the elements of which it consisteth and verily as hee said in the Poet Si ius violandum est Regni causa violandum if a man must transgresse the Law of honesty and Iustice he must doeit for a Kingdome so it is like they are resolued if a man must lye certainely hee must lye for the good of the Catholick Religion and if lie in so good a cause lye to some purpose The first report concerning the issue of this Conference was of a silly woman said to be present and conuerted thereby to the Romish faith who forsooth stamped vpon her English Bible and solemnly renounced the Protestant Religion vpon it protesting she would neuer trust hereticall Translation any more But alas this was but a silly lye made by some pâ—isne â—ouice of the petty forme to see how a lye in this kinde would take The higher Schollers in the Iesuites Schoole thought it behooued them to make a Catholick or vniuersall lye for the Catholick cause by giuing out that the whole company of Protestants present at that Conference was gayned to the Romish faith yea and many more Protestants then were there also for 100 some say 400 is the summe of the supposed Conuerts whereas there were not neere a hundred persons in both parties in all at the Conference and as wee conceiue neere 20. were professed Papists and knowne Recusants and for the rest which were Noble-men Gentle-men and Gentle-women of quality with some few Diuines there was not one of them any way staggered in Religion by this meeting but on the contrary they haue openly profest that they were much established and confirmed in the truth of the Protestant Religion by it and Master BVGGES himselfe whose satisfaction by this Conference was principally intended who before had doubted of our Church after this Disputation professeth himselfe fully resolued through the mercy of God to whose grace we commend all that loue the Truth in sincerity As for those who contrary to the euidence of truth and so many testimonies beyond all exception are yet resolued to beleeue what the Iesuites report for their owne aduantage in their owne cause the Iesuites wee say who maintaine that a man may vtter an vntruth in words without the guilt of Veniall sinne so hee be sure to make it vp by a mentall reseruation vpon such as stand thus affected wee bestow the blessing of Cardinall CARAFFA who when the people flocked to him in great multitudes to be blest by him beeing ariued at Paris comming as Legate from the Pope lifting vp his eyes deuoutly to heauen and making according to the manner crosses in stead of the accustomed forme of Episcopall benediction blessed the honest vulgar French-men in these words Quandoquidem iste populus vult decipi decipiatur If so be this people will bee gulled or deceiued with such shewes and fopperies let them be gulled or deceiued THE PARTICVLAR CONTENTS OF THIS BOOKE THe occasion and issue of the late Conference had Iune 27. 1623. betweene Doctor White Deane of Carlile and Doctor Featly with Master Fisher and Master Sweet Iesuites Page 1. A Relation of what passed in the said Conference touching the Visibility of the Church page 6. Additions to the former Relation of the Conference page 29. An Attestation concerning some particulars set downe in the said Relation entituled The Fisher catched in his owne Net page 38. A Remonstrance sent in a Letter by Doctor Featly to his worthy friend Sir Humfrey Lynde touching the former Conference held at his house wherein is maintained that 1 Conferences in poynt of Religion are lawfull and vsefull and therfore to be iustified 2 The Method also vsed in the former Conference maintained and iustified 3 The proofes alledged in the Conference were direct not diuersiue H* A succinct or briefe discussion of the two Questions which were propounded by the Iesuite by Distinctions Assertions 1 viz. Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible L1 2 Whether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages O2 A Defence of Doctor Featlie's proceedings in the Conference R3 wherin Rules are prescribed for Disputations and it is prooued and confirmed that 1 No conclusion of Faith may bee prooued out of meere humane testimonies S1 2 The Protestants Church might be visible in all Ages yet their Names not now extant S3 3 The Romish Church was inuisible in the first and best Ages T1 A Prooeme to Master Fisher's Answer to the Conference wherein is shewed that absurd Paradoxes are miserably defended by Master Fisher. T3 An Answer to the Title of Master Fisher's booke masked vnder the Name of A. C. V3 An Answer to the Preface thereof V 4. A Table of the principall matters contained in the same which are reduced vnto fiue heads viz. 1 Vntruths 2 Contradictions 3 Idle obseruations and exceptions 4 Impertinences or mal ' à proposes 5 Vaine repetitions Y 3. A Reply to Master Fisher's Counter Relation touching the occasion of the Conference page 37. The Answer of Sir Humfrey Lynde touching diuers passages in the Protestant Relation about the occasion and issue of the Conference excepted against by the Iesuite p. 39. A Reply to Master Fisher's Answer or the defence of the Protestant Relation diuided into Paragraphs Paragraph 1. touching the entry into the Conference page 45. 2 Of the state of the Question page 49. 3 The conditions to bee obserued by the Disputants page 52. 4 Of the Inuisibility of the Romane Church for more then 500 yeeres next after Christ page 54. 5 Concerning the parts of the Question page 59. 6 Of the pretended necessity of naming Protestants in all Ages page 63. 7 Of the comparison betweene a proofe à Priori and à Posteriori page 74. 8 Of the Demonstration of the Visibility of the Church by the eternity and immutability of faith page 88. 9 Touching a testimony alledged by M. Fisher out of D. Field page 113. 10 Of the Induction breaking
as will appeare to any who will compare my Reply with your Answer which I here transcribe verbatiâ— â—hongh not alwaies following you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 because you often double and more often start aside requiring of you the like And I begin with your Title An Answer to a Pamphlet intituled The Fisher catched in his owne net In which by the way is shewed that The Protestant Church was not so visible in all Ages as the true Church ought to bee and consequently is not the true Church of which men may learne infallible faith necessarie to saluation by A. C. DIgnuÌ„ patellâ operculuÌ„ such a cup such a Couer such ware such inscriptioÌ„ on the outside of the box such as the Inne is such is the signe such as the Clocke is such is the Index or Finger of the Diall A crackt Cup and a false Couer naughtie ware and as bad an inscription a cheating Inne and a lewd Signe an vncertain Clock a lying Index a book full of falshood fraud neuer a true word in the title for neither is it an answer to the Phamphlet so intituled but a Cauill at some passages therein neither in this Answer as hee tearmeth it is shewed that The Protestant Church is not the true visible Church but rather the contrarie as shall appeare by discussing it neither was it penned by A. C. but by Master Fisher who before was caught in his owne net and now dâ—nceth in a net vnder the name of A. C. thinking that no man seeth him yet your Net is not so close but that I plainly see you thorow it and I gesse at the reason why you shrowd your selfe vnder the Characters of A. C. There are many passages in this Answer in which Master Fishers ingenuity and sincerity and modestie are set vpon the Last These commendations of Master Fisher would haue lost all their grace in his own mouth as a Turkeys doth the luster on the finger of a dead man but it becomes A. C. well enough to blazon the Armes of Master Fisher. Moreouer by thus borrowing the letters of your friends name you play fast and loose If any man like your Answer then it is yours but if hee dislike it then it is A. C as Tully being girded at by Laterensis for a common Iester answereth Quod quisque dicit id â—e dixisse dicunt ego autem si quid est quod mihi 〈◊〉 esse videatur et homine ingenuâ— dignum atquâ— doctâ— non aspernor stomachor verò cùm aâ—â—rum non me digna in me conseruntur Other mens jests are fathered vpon mee and if they bee wittie jests and haue salt in them I am content to father them but if dry and vnsauorie I will not owne them In like manner in your booke Si quid tamen aptius exit QuanquaÌ„ haec rara auis est siquid tâ—men aptius exit If there be any thing sharply spoken to good purpose M. Fisher will challenge that to himself but if any thing bee spoken impertinently and flatly as indeed the greater part of your Musick goes vpon flats then A. C. must beare it out Howsoeuer in my judgement M. Fisher you had better haue taken off your mask and dealt openâ—y for by this concealing your true name you giue your selfe a blow and your cause a wound Were not you a Nominall in the Conference Did not you stand wholly in a manner vpon Names and will not you now set your owne name to your owne Work A man would think that you who are stored with so many Names might haue bestowed at least one of your old cast Names at full length on your Title-page and not put your Reader to spell A. C. who I can assure you spells them vnhappily One spelleth thus An Answer written by A. C. that is A Counterfeit another A. C. A Cauiller a third An Answer written by A. C. that is by A Cox- c quod dicere nolo but I spare you and leaue your Title and come to your Preface Master FISHER'S Preface GEntle Reader although I doubt not but all that bee wise and iudicious especially if they duely consider the occasion state of the question lately treated in a Conference betwixt Doctor White and Doctor Featly Ministers and Master Fisher and Master Sweet Iesuites will easily discerne euen by that false relation which is set out in print by a Protestant that the Protestants cause hath not gained any thing Doctor FEATLY'S Answer AS our Blessed Sauiour spake to the High-priests seruant saying If I haue done euill beare witnesse of the euill if well why smitest thou me In like manner the Protestant Relator may checke you If hee haue done you any wrong in the relation or set downe any thing vntruely conuince him of it if not why doe you smite him with your tongue and pen It is your owne Maxime that No man will lie for the aduantage of his Aduersarie or for his owne disaduantage but you here say that The Protestant cause hath gained nothing by the relation Therefore it should seeme by your owne argument to bee a sincere and not malicious relation Howsoeuer if the Protestant cause hath gained nothing by it your cause hath lost nothing by it and if so why do you so maligne and persecute euen vnto banishment an innocent Relation Why do you forbid your Romish Catholiques to reade it Why apply you so many salues both in writing and in print if there be no sore What the Protestant cause gained by the Conference it selfe or the relation thereof malo in aliorum opinione relinquere quà m in oratione mea ponere it is fitter for me to heare then speak I am sure Doctor White and my selfe haue gained much ease by it for before the Conference wee could neuer bee quiet for your challenges but since wee haue neuer been troubled with you It seemes you had enough of that short Encounter But you will say No blowe was struck home no arrow was drawne vp to the head no argument prosecuted to the full at that Meeting How then could the Protestant Cause gaine any thing by it By your miserable euasions and manifest flight and tergiuersation you who were ante pugnam auidus tumidus were in pugnâ pauidus timidus like Captaine Iohn mentioned by Sinesius who in the maine fight fled amaine digging his horse-sides letting loose the Reanes laying on amaine with a switch c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. It will be said If you fled in such manner why did not I follow after you Because in your flight you brake the bridge by refusing to answer Christ and his Apostles Scripturis non loquentibus quis loquetur Where Christ and his Apostles cannot be heard the holy Father was resolued neuer to speake I account it no foile to my cause to bee non-futed in that Court where Christ and his Apostles are excepted against Where the Charters of our saluation
hold the ancient Primitiue faith wee will acknowledge that we haue no right vnto them nor will we desire to be admitted to dispute out of them Therefore vntill M. Fisher or some other shall prooue by some other marks than bare alleaging of the Popes names locally succeeding one another in the Sea of Rome that they are the heires of the Apostles we haue a most iust cause to try the title of the true Church with them and bring the last Will and Testament of our Lord and Master for our prime Euidence and surest Deed to make good our plea. Of the fift Head 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or vain repetitions For the exemplification of this rare point of eloquence bequeathed to you as a Legacy in euery line and sentence of Battus his Will and Testament I need not alleage as I haue done before particular leaues and pages for you might far better haue intituled your whole book A Battologie than an Apologie or An 〈◊〉 pamphlet intituled The Fisher catched in his own Net A judicious friend of mine to whom I sent your Book at the first comming out in Print and demanded of him his iudgement of it returned it back again in the words of the Poet I lle referre aliter saepe solebatidem Another said M. Fisher's legible Tautologies in this printed Defense were as irksome and tedious as his audible dilatory Answers and Teâ—giuersations in the Conference A third said He was sure that M. Fisher aduised with the Poet Martial who professeth that rather than his Book should perish by reason of the finall 〈◊〉 of it hee would fill vp as many pages as 〈◊〉 cobbles verses with that Catholique Pateh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ergo ne pereat breâ—ibus mihi charta liâ—ellis Dicatur potiùs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 To repeat particularly your vain repetitions would bee to commit the fault I reprehend in you euen in the reprehension thereof and I might feare to heare an allusion to that of Platâ— against Diogenes Fastum caleas sed 〈…〉 so I might be thought to cry down a Cuckoo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And therefore passing them in 〈◊〉 from the contents of your Book I hasten to 〈◊〉 Text. Touching the occasion and issue of the Conference Protestant Relation EDVVARD BVGS Esquire about the age of 70. yeers being lately sick was sollicited by some Papists then about him to forsake the protestant faith telling him There was no hope of saluation without the Church There was no Catholike Church but theirs Master FIHSER's Answer How farre this parcell of the relation is true or false I will not stand to discusse as not yet knowing how or by whom the afore-said Gentle-man came first to doubt of his Church and consequently of his religion c. Doctor FEATLYE's Reply Although I might take occasion by the counter-relation of the occasion of this conference to reueale diuers mysteries of the reserued Art of Iesuitical frauds falsehoods for as they say in a Lamprey so in this whole treatise froÌ„ the beginning to the ending there is a string of poyson throughout yet because the occasioÌ„ of the conference but little concernes the cause less me in sparing the Iesuites blame and penance I will spare mine owne paines and the Readers 〈◊〉 who I perswade my selfe will not much regard how wee came into the field but how wee acquitted our selues vpon the place for the papers sent to the old Gentle-man which impudently thrust themselues vpon vs at euerie turne in the occasion Page 7. and 〈…〉 Conference and afterwards in the 〈◊〉 Page 48. and 49. and 60. Although they 〈◊〉 been met withall by Master Rogers Master Walker and diuers other and stabbed thorow and thorow againe with their 〈…〉 shall haue ouer and aboue my 〈…〉 Asteriskes when my tractate of the visibilitiâ—â—â— the Church which hath laine by mee in darknes for the space of a yeere shall vpon some good occasion become visible and see the light As for the relation of matter of fact so farre as concerneth the occasion of this Conference where the Protestants Relation and the Iesuites walke fairely together there needs no conteâ—ting Answer where they clash or 〈◊〉 one another I can answer no otherwise theÌ„ the Oâ—ator doth in the like kinde Accusatar dicit Marcus Sâ—â—â—rus negat Vtri â—redemus A Iesuit disparageth som passages in the Relation a worthie Knight of knowne integrity who procured the meeting for the satisfaction of his kinsman Master 〈◊〉 auoweth them as followeth 〈…〉 The answer of S. Humfrey Lynde touching diuers passages in the Protestant Relation about the occasion and issue of the Conference excepted against by the Iesuite COncerning the occasion of the Conference I aâ—ow that according to his Maiesties command I did set downe the truth of the occasion briefely and faithfully to my best remembrance as is alreadie extant in print And whereas fol. 4. Master Fisher saith hee set downe two questions with my consent and the old Gentlemans the first whereof being allowed by both of vs Master Fisher wrote It is granted I affirme that in processe of discourse I then allowed that the Church is more or lesse visible at all times but that I did grant a necessity of such visibilitie as hee intendeth or that I obserued what M. Fishers marginall note was I vtterly denie And wheras page 12. Master Fisher complaineth of the inequalitie of the Auditorie compared with the few which Master Fisher brought To this I say that vpon my credit I did not acquaint four persons with the meeting more then those that I inuited to dinner Howsoeuer I doubt not but that hee is rather glad he had no more Auditours of his owne side and by this time is more asham'd of his cause then of the paucitie of his parties thâ—re present And yet I will let him know for the small acquaintance I haue among the Papists I was able to number full twentie of that side present And verily had I purposedly drawn thither so much company the Iesuites ought me thanks for it as therein deseruing well of the Catholique cause by bringing a troup of spectators to view the foyle of our own side in a question reputed by the Iesuites so disaduantageous to vs wherin forsooth the Protestants as is triumphed page 33. are so farre from being able to produce three professors in euerie age tâ—at they are not able to name one to say nothing of Christ and his Apostles for they were not worthy to bee answered not one Author no not one Actor that dares oppose two such learned Iesuites in such a triall Again page 16. whereas it is said there was an vnseasonable motion made by Sir Humfrey Linde to Master Sweet I answer that I was induced for certaine reasons then to mooue Master Sweet to dispute vpon Transubstantiation First the standers by did well perceyue that the old man Master Fisher was much woorried and the Auditory much wearied with his saying nothing and writing
little to the purpose Secondly a Romified Lady being present and being troubled with those dull and weake answers did then intreat me to interpose and dispute of Transubstantiation for her instruction And lastly I adde that I had proposed this question to Master Sweet at my house 8. weekes before where his leasure then would not giue him leaue to dispute of it and now I conceiued he was wel armed for a second encounter Againe where it is related in the Conference that I told M. Buggs that the Church was in Christ and his Apostles c. The Iesuite saith in the margent there A very weake and insufficient answer as is shewed hereafter Surely the Iesuite had a weake memorie and forgot a farther Reply or else other answer hee could not make to disproue it Neither by Master Fishers leaue was it so weake and insufficient an answer as hee gaue me when vpon his first meeting falling into conference about the Reall presence which Master Fisher would prooue out of these words Hot est corpus meuÌ„ I answerd that Scotus Cameracensis and Bellarmine were of opinion that that Text was not strong enough to enforce Transubstantiation To which obiection hee gaue this Answer as a full satisfaction to the standers-by What care I for Bellarmine or Scotus or Cameracensis Againe by Master Sweets leaue it was not so weake and insufficient an answer as when I propounded to him foure questions viz. The worship of Images Praier in an vnknowne tongue Communion in one kinde and Transubstantiation with this assurance in the presence of Recusants that if he could proue either all or but any one of those held by the ancient Fathers in the Primitiue Church according to that forme of doctrine prescribed in the Councel of Trent I would then subscribe to Popery All his answer was that hee brought a booke that would proue them all So for that time I was content hee should bee saued by his booke But Doctor Featly in whose hands hee is now will not let him escape so easily but calling him into the inner barre will finde that non legit vt Clericus At that time Master Sweet farther added that hee for his part had other businesse and could not intend to argue with mee about those questions If his superior had heard him certainly hee would haue enioyned him penance for neglecting so faiâ—e an opportunitie of conuerting such an Hereticke as hee takes mee to bee hee knowes there ought to bee no businesse pretended where there had been a possibility to make a proselyte Lastly concerning the issue of the Conference I auow and protest that old Master Bugs came then to me and gaue mee thankes in the same roome before his departure and told mee that he well perceiued it was be the great brags of the aduersaries for their Church that hee well perceiued they could say but little for it and withall hee did acknowledge himselfe to bee so well satisfied at that time that he professed vnto mee that if his sonne would not leaue his religion and the priests company he would leaue him c. HVMFREY LYNDE The Protestant Relation Paragraph the first touching the entry into the Conference DOctor White and D. Featly beeing inuited to dinner by Sir Humfrey Lynde and staying awhile after had notice giuen them that M. Fisher and M. Sweet Iesuites were in the next room ready to conferre with them touching a Question set downe by M. Fisher vnder his owne hand in these words viz. First Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible and especially in the Ages going before Luther and secondly Whether the names of such visible Protestants in all Ages can be shewed and prooued out of good Authors This Question beeing deliuered to the parties aboue-named and it beeing notified vnto them that there were certaine persons who had beene sollicited and remaining doubtfull in Religion desired satisfaction especially in this point they were perswaded to haue some speech with the Iesuites touching this point the rather because the Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers and disperse them in secret in which they vaunt that no Protestant Minister dare encounter them in this point Master Fisher his Answer First any man reading this parcel would be induced to think that D. White D. Featly had neuer had notice before for what end they were inuited to dinner or for what end they were to meete with the Iesuites but that they were on the sudden summâ—ned to this Conference without any preparation or knowledge of the Question which not to be so is euidently conuinced partly by that which is already said partly by that which I am after to say Secondly this Relator would make his Reader beleeue that M. Fisher vnder his owne hand had set downe the words of the Question distinguished with the expresse figure of 2. which is not so for M. Fisher did not write any such figure of 2. in the middle of the Question nor did not meane to make any more then 〈◊〉 onely entire Question as Sir Humfrey himselfe had desired Thirdly he seemeth willing to perswade that Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers which is not true Doctor Featly his Reply The Heathen accounted it an ominous thing offendere in limine to stumble as a man is going out a-doores in lifting his legge ouer the threshold You do so M. Fisher you stumble at the first setting your foote out a-doore and which is farre worse you stumble at three strawes The first is that forsooth any man reading this parcell would beleeue that D. White and my selfe were on the sudden summoned to this Conference And what if he should beleeue so What doth this aduaÌ„tage our cause or preiudice yours It matters not much how wee came to this encounter but how we came off Yet are there no words in the Relation which imply any such thing that wee came sudden or vnprouided nay whosoeuer reades the first Chapter touching the occasion of the Conference cannot but perceiue that wee had notice of it before and came prouided The truth is for mine owne part I knew of it two daies and no more before the meeting and I excepted against the day appointed as beeing too neere and sudden for a man to prepare either to oppose or answer in so spacious and â—ast a Question 〈◊〉 from Christ to Lâ—ther yet beeing ouer-intreated to be there as an Assistanâ— onely in the 〈◊〉 yeelded The second straw you stumbled at is That the Relator would make the Reader beleeue that M. Fisher put a figure of 2. at the second part of his Question And what if the Reader did so beleeue It is certaine that there is a second 〈◊〉 in your Question And what 〈◊〉 then had it beene to set before the second Vtrum the figure 2 Howsoeuer there was no fault in the Protestant Relaâ—our but in the Printer who mistooke the interrogatiue point in the copy for the figure 2. In the
the Catholique Church of Christ to Africa and therein to the Sect of Donatus so you also restraine the Church of Christ to Rome and the Popes adherents We teach with Saint Austen Non Romanos sed omnes gentes Dominus semini Abrahae media quoque iuratione promisit That God promised with an oath to Abraham not the Romans but all Nations for his seed We beleeue that wheresoeuer the Scriptures are receiued and Christs Sacraments administred God calles some by ordinary meanes and consequently there is a Christian Church though neuer hearing of Rome or Papall Iurisdiction who are ordained to saluation Wee account all that professe the name of Christ Doctrine of the Gospell to be members of the visible Catholick Church yet with this difference some are sound members and parts others vnsound and these more or lesse Wee doubt not but Christ hath his flock vnder the Turk and Tartarian and Mogol in Asia Africa Europe yea Italy and Rome it selfe euen in the denne of Antichrist And therefore we are the true Catholicks who maintaine verè Catholicam Ecclesiam a Church truly Catholicke and you are the Donatists and Masters of the separation of these times who damne all sorts of Christians saue those who are content to receiue the mark of the Romish Beast in their fore-heads What then speake you of three Protestants to be named in euery Age Although our Sauiours words are most true Where there are two or three gathered in my name there am I. And although Tertullians inferences from those words are most true Vbi tres sunt Ecclesia est licèt Laici sint Where there are three there is the Church yea though those three bee Lay-men and In 〈…〉 Ecclesia est the Church is in one or two men yea Alensis and diuers among you remembred by Tostatus affirme that from the time of Christs suffering vntil his resurrection sides in sol◠remansit beata Virgine that onely the blessed Virgin perseuered in the faith and consequently that the Church subsisted for that time onely in her Yet God be blessed for it wee need not to fly to any such defence We shall bring into the field pares aquilas nay plures aquilas more ensignes and banners then you yea incomparably more for the first and best Ages and if you exceed vs in the latter I wish you to remember that in time in liquors the lees and mother gathers towards the bottome and a spoonefull of pure wine is better then a Hogs-head of dregs Yea but we are so farre from beeing able to produce three Protestants in all Ages as we cannot name one in euery age How proue you this Forsooth M. Brierly hath prooued it to your hand A beggerly Rapsodist whose patched cloak is already all to-be-tome by one of our noble Mastiues and the ragges that remaine as I am informed will be shortly by another puld away Were M. Brierly a man of better iudgement and more integrity then our worthy Morton now Lord Bishop of Couentry and Litchfield hath prooued him to be yet beeing a knowne Papist to alleage meerely his work and words to mee is but a dry kinde of proofe and therefore you did well in this place to knock at the Buttery-dore And heere I intreat the Reader to note how the very name of the Buttery reuiues the Iesuite In all the other passages of his Book there is nothing that pretends to wit or mirth but heer he is very pleasant now his dull wit is whetted he was not able in all the Conference nor since in his Answer to send out such a flash Will you know the reason The Spright of the Butterie possesseth him and thus he diuines The Protestants cannot abide with any patience when they bee much pressed in this poynt as appeareth by diuers that haue been vrged and in particular by Doctor Featly in this Conference who hauing been called vpon to produce Names burst forth c. It is true I burst forth not into a passion as you would make the Reader beleeue but into a laughter as did the rest of the company neither did I by any gesture or speech discouer my impatience but your folly who when I alledged you reasons and testimonies were not content with them but called for emptie names c. And what was this but to call for a Colledge Buttery-book which is nothing but a Register of the names of such as are in that societie If the sprite of the Butterie had not obfuscated your braine surprized your iudgement you might haue vnderstood plainly perceiued that I cōpared not a Catalogue of noble Confessors and Martyrs of the Catholique Protestant faith to a Buttery-book but such a Catalogue as you then required and you vsually bring to proue the visiblity of your church viz. a companie of names and nothing else testes sine testimonijs witnesses deposing nothing for you And may not such emptie Catalogues be fitly compared to butterie-Butterie-books Note Reader say you what a fit Title hee giueth to a Catalogue of Names of Protestants who indeed are more like to bee found in a Butterie-booke then any good Record of Antiquitie as hauing had their beginning of late in one Martin Luther who after his apostasie more respected the Butterie then any ecclesiasticall storie I maruell not that you Yeomen of the Popes Butterie and Pantry and the Blacke-gard of Rome haue a sharpe tooth against Luther who by burning the Popes haruest of Indulgences hath made the Catalogue farre lesse of those that brued for the Friers Buttery and baked for the Popes Kitchin Certainly if Martin Luther had so fat a belly as you paint him with hee did but hold that which hee got among you for after hee for sooke Sodom which you Apostataes call apostasie hee so hated and detested the gluttony and drunkennesse of Monks and Friers and so sharpely inueighed against them that Erasmus sometimes spake as truly as wittily of him That though hee otherwise highly esteemed of him yet hee could not but confesse that hee was much too blame in two things that hee presumed to touch the Popes Crowne and the Monkes bellie Wherefore seeing Luther deserueth no better of your fraternities strike him out of your Butterie-booke and put Father Parsons in his place the grand Master of your new equiuocating Religion or religious equiuocation because good man his name was strucke out of the Buttery-booke of Bailliol-Colledge in Oxford and hee expeld for falsifying the Butterie-booke and thereby cozening and purloining the Students of that Colledge The Protestant Relation Paragraph the seauenth touching the comparison betweene a proofe à priori and à posteriori Doctor Featly That Church whose faith is eternall is so visible that the Names of some professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall Ergo. Master Fisher. Faith eternall Who euer heard of faith eternall Saint Paul saith that faith
to bee reiected vpon any pretence Not long after it was not authenticall For Clemens the eighth corrected it in many hundred places Now goe and vpbrayd vs with our late reuised translation but see withall that you dispence with the Pope that he may dispence with you One yeere the immaculate conception of the blessed Virgin is maintained in bookes allowed by your Church another yeere it is impugned Lastly in one yeere it is determined in bookes set out by authoritie among you that the oath of alleageance may lawfully bee taken by Roman Catholiques in the next yeere wee reade that hee is no good Catholique that will take that oath The title of vniuersall Bishop was held insolent arrogant profane Antichristian Luciferian in Saint Gregories time but now you hold it to be the holy title of Christs Vicar Yea but say you The Protestants haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change Belike then the Scripture is no certaine and infallible rule but vnwritten traditions are the Word of God is no sure ground the Popes Decree is The Apostle then hath much deceyued vs who saith Let God bee true and euerie man a lyer If euerie man a lyer euerie Pope too 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 homo not vir onely to exclude Pope Ioane from priuiledge of inerrability You adde to piece out your former argument that in my demonstration I proue magis notum perignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hardly knowne especially by onely Scripture of the sense whereof according to the Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure The edge of this argument hath beene turned alreadie in the Remonstrance whereunto I adde First that visibilitie is more knowne to sense then the truth of doctrine but not to the vnderstanding of a Christian. Secondly the visiblenesse of a particular present Church is the obiect of sense but not the perpetuall former and future visibility of any one Church much lesse of the vniuersall And therefore it is much easier out of plaine and euident Texts of Scripture together with the three Creeds knowne to the simplest among vs where the Liturgie is in a knowne Tongue to deduce the truth of doctrine necessarie to saluation then hee can produce a successiue Catalogue of visible professours out of good Authors in all Ages Yea but no man say you can hee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture because Protestants hold The whole Church may erre In thus arguing you bewray either ignorance or an ill conscience Ignorance if you knowe not that wee distinguish betweene the essentiall or formal Church and the Church representatiue of poynts necessarie to saluation and not necessarie of euident Texts of Scripture of obscure But if you knew these distinctions as indeed you cannot but knowe them hauing read D. Field and other Protestant Writers you dispute against your conscience Because in obscure and difficult Texts of Scripture the Church may erre will it therefore follow that no man can bee sure of the sense of plaine and euident Texts In which if wee may beleeue Saint Austin all those things are found which concerne faith and manners Will it follow because wee hold that your Church representatiue that is the Pope and his Consistorie or the Pope and his Councell may erre that therefore the essentiall and formal Church of Christ consisting of all the visible Christians in the world in propounding doctrine necessarie to saluation out of Scripture may erre The Church following her guide the Word of God is sure not to erre whether vniuersall or particular For which preseruation from errour we doubt not but that there is a farre higher degree of spiritual assistāce to the generall Councels then nationall yet in both it sometimes falleth out that as Austen obserueth Priora à posterioribus emendentur the former are corrected by the later Thirdly you beg an Argument from your selfe drawne from a beggerly fallacy called Petitio principij or begging your maine question You say that my former Syllogisme was a petitio principij and therefore no demonstration but I prooued it then and since confirmed it that it was a Demonstration and therefore no petitio principij Let the Reader heere obserue how your Answers and Obiections interfere and supplant one the other Master Sweet will haue my Argument to bee a transitio à genere in genus but you a petitio principij Againe elsewhere you call this Argument A digression from the question a diuersiue proofe and yet here you will haue it to bee identicall Wherefore as Xenophanes opposed a motion made by Eleates in behalfe of Leucothea to celebrate her funerals with teares and lamentations and withall to sacrifice to her as a Goddesse this motion sayth hee ouerthroweth it selfe If wee sacrifice to Leucothea as an immortall Goddesse we must not bewaile her death and if we bewaile her death as being a mortal woman wee must not sacrifice to her as to a Goddesse priuiledged from death In like manner whosoeuer readeth your said seuerall Answers may obiect against them If the Argument aboue-named was a petitio principij it could not be a transitio à genere in genus and if it were a transitio à genere in genus it could not be a petitio principij If it were a diuersiue proofe it could not bee identicall if it bee identicall as you here affirme it cannot be diuersiue for it implyes an apparant contradiction to say that a man in proouing idem per idem doth digredi ab eodem But you yeeld a reason why this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question For say you in asking which is the true visible Church or Congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith By the like reason you might proue euery Demonstration à priori to bee a petitio principij For in propounding any question touching the effect wee enquire vertually and implicitly of the cause And therefore Aristotle in lib. 2. Poster Analyt acutely prooueth omnem quaestionem esse quaestionem medij that euerie scientificall question is in effect a question of the medium or the cause By the like Argument you might prooue that all Arguments drawne à definitione ad definitum are petitiones principij because in propounding any question touching the definitum wee at least vertually inquire of the definition If the tearmes in my Syllogisme were but formally distinct the Syllogisme could bee no petitio principij how much lesse then can it bee termed petitio principij when as it is certaine they are distinct really as your selfe confesse in your fourth Argument to which now I addresse my selfe Fourthly you impeach my Demonstration by pushing againe at the Maior saying Although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without