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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A50497	A brief narrative of the second meeting between the people called Quakers and Baptists at the Meeting-place, near Wheeler-street, London, the 16th of the 8th moneth, 167[4] / published for information by W.M. ... [et al.]	Mead, William, 1628-1713.; Hicks, Thomas, 17th cent.	1674 (1674)	Wing M1565A; ESTC R29521	29,398	72

greatest of Miracles and most Excellent Argument that the Lord Jesus Christ bestowed upon the unbelieving Iews would be no Evidence in it self because not received by them The Consequence is the horrid Blasphemy of the Pharisees That he cast out Devils by Beelzebub the Prince of Devils This doth exclude all Martyrs from having a Sufficient Evidence because they could not convince their Persecutors of the Validity of that Evidence I do not doubt the poor Woman that said She could not dispute for Christ but she could burn for him had a sufficient Evidence and better then an Impostor that could have made a better verbal Defence I remember that I. Bradford that honest Martyr Book of Mart. 3 Vol. p. 298. gave this Answer to the Arch-Bishop of York We do believe and know the Scriptures as Christ's Sheep not because the Church saith They are the Scriptures but because they be so being thereof assured by the same Spirit which spake them This was all I hear he gave to the Bishop as an Evidence of his Faith concerning the Scriptures Did therefore I. Bradford believe them no more then an Impostor because an Impostor might say so Or was there no better Evidence to Protestants of him then that he was an Impostor Also B. Iewel one of the learnedst and most ancient Prelates of the Church of England in his Book against Harding pag. 532 534. asserts That without the special Help Prompting and Revelation of God's Holy Spirit the Scriptures are to the Reader be he never so wise or well learned as the Vision of a sealed Book So that 1st Inspiration was the Rule of their believing and understanding Scripture 2 dly The Evidence that they and other Christians gave of their Christianity besides good Words and Works was that internal Evidence of the Spirit which Gual Cradock affirms gives to know the Spirit or Fruits of it in other men To conclude If Articles of Faith according to Scripture the Inspiration of the Spirit of Truth fair Words and sober Living and Sufferings are no Evidence because imitable or pretended to by Impostors or that all such are Impostors who cannot evidence their Right to such Things not only Millions in Happiness are questioned as to their Sincerity by J. I. but the best among those he accounts Christians now alive must be concluded Impostors and for himself alas poor Man he will prove an IMPOSTOR with a Witness I. Crook It seems very unreasonable that he that hath Faith and is a true Believer should give an Outward Evidence of his Faith to him that hath no true Faith or else he must be No Christian seeing the Scripture faith and it is true That there is a white Stone and a New Name written in it which no Man knows but he that hath it And he that hath it in himself knows it certainly to be the True Evidence when he hears it from another for it answers as Face to Face in a Glass And as Iob saith There is an Ear that tryeth Words as the Palat tasteth Meat c. Much more was spoak by him to evidence the Truth of this Assertion to the Peoples great Contentment but cannot so particularly and exactly be remembred G. Whitehead I have been concerned in many Disputes and Controversies about Religion and with divers Sorts of People but never met with such unfair Dealing clamorous Work and hideous Noise in Disputes from any People as from these Men though we owe them no ill will the Lord open their and all your Understandings I desire that Seriousness Sobriety and the Fear of God may possess all your Hearts c. G. Keith Friends and People I desire you to take notice that whereas I said We had as great Evidence to show that we were Christians as any Baptists on Earth I spoak modestly I could have said more and now I do say more for there are two Outward Evidences of a Christian unto others one is Good Works another is to Suffer patiently and boldly for the Principles of the Christian Religion Now the Baptists dare not deny but our Works are as good as their own And as for our Sufferings in Times of Persecution they commended them far above their own then they could call us their WALL of Defence betwixt them and the Blows of Persecution and told us they prayed for us as divers here present can witness Note Reader if any object that Saying Not the Suffering but the Cause makes the Martyr I say the Maxim is true but they have not yet proved that our Cause is not good this they did undertake but have been shamefully foyl'd in their Pursuance of it as doth appear to such indifferent and impartial Auditors as were present both Times and may appear to all such impartial Men who read these Relations of the whole Matter in Print I. Crook added a few Words more to the People and concluded the Meeting with his Prayer

say I wish there were in the Land such Zeal as to abominate the Name of Jesuit But I am of the Mind that W. P. himself will say That there is too little of that Spirit in the Land But are not you a Catholick Russel I have Two Reasons to offer why I say so The People desired that the Stranger might speak to clear himself Strang. I do not say I am no Catholick but I say I am no Roman-Catholick that is to say I am not of the Church of Rome J. Ives VVhat are ye then Are ye a Hobist Strang. ' I never read his Books Bapt. Do any of you know him Answ I have known him to be a Trader in London this Fourteen Years Strang. ' Capt. Bromel knows me And others knew him to the Satisfaction of the Meeting W. P. Now where is he that is behind with his Two Reasons to give some Ground for his Suggestion There were none produced Stranger I have heard the Discourse hitherto between you I do understand here is a great deal of means used for to evade the Matter intended by the Meeting and let me tell you it will not only be a Means to make me but more Quakers to see the Weakness of your Carriage You have charged them with several Things they charge you with Forgery therein and they meet here to prove that it is so and if you thus do evade the Matter they shall stand innocent in the sight of Honest Men I desire these People call'd Quakers may have Liberty to read their Charge against T. H. they gave you Liberty to charge them shall not they have the same Interrupted by T. Plant who said thus T. Plant Mr. Penn pray let us all sit down and hear this Man preach us a Sermon The People were displeased and hooted at T. P. W. Penn Must he not clear himself J. Ives VVe have spent almost an Hours Time in this Digression W. Penn How can we expect Satifaction from you as to T. H. if you will not give it us for the Slander your Brother hath endeavour'd to insinuate against an unconcerned Person J. Ives As to this Suggestion against this Person you may remember in an other Matter it was by you urged that is should be left as being unimportant to the Case in Hand but now by your insisting upon the Matter relaring to this Gentleman so much besides the Business you manifest your Minds rather to be to prolong the Time and stave it off therefore I say Come will you hear your selves proved No Christians W. Penn It is to the Peoples Edification to come to enquire whether or not T. H. is a Forger in the Matter of his Dialogues and that is the Matter ye ought to go upon if after that you question the Truth of our Christianity we freely offer to meet you upon that Occasion either private or publick Stranger I am concerned Christianity is so much abused by you Baptists that pretend so much to Christianity T. H. hath writ Books against them they charge his Books with Forgery you should go on to hear whether or no it can be proved Baptist VVhat a Coxcomb is that Here the People cry'd out Take notice of that Man 1 Stranger We have been here a great while and I suppose the Auditory cannot make much to their Content out of what hath past among you I offer again that you will determine who is Plantiff and who Defendent who Opponent and who Respondent ●f you cannot come to this it is as good to depart J. Ives VVe are willing here to prove the Quakers to be No Christians The People make a Noise and are discontented T. Plant You call'd upon us at our Meeting to call upon the People for Silence why do not you do the same here and call for Silence W. Penn Do not reflect we have called upon them and urge them to be silent nor do we believe it is our Friends that make the Disturbance T. Plant If we say nothing with Respect to that Gentleman we shall be clamoured about the Town for it W. Penn He is a Friend of yours as well as ours we are not at all acquainted with him T. Plant Sir I do not think you are a Jesuite or Romanist nor do I approve of what was said I would not have said so of any Man except I knew it But this I have to say to that Gentleman If he should turn Quaker upon this I should take him to be a very silly and weak one The People here manifested their great Dislike of T. Plant's making Apology T. Plant I mean if he should turn Quaker upon the Account of any VVeakness of ours it would manifest him weak in Christianity not those that are Quakers Stranger I did not say thus but it might be a Means to make me and others Quakers to see the Weakness of your Carriage that protent so much to Christianity I st Stranger I hope you will come to an End of all Particularities and I desire Mr. Ives and Mr. Plant that some Article may be agreed upon You say The Quakers are no Christians they decline not the Proof of it but they say It is not the first thing to come to but that the first thing is for them to prove T. H. a Forger that is the Charge W. Penn Shall we read the Charge T. Plant No No. W. Penn Shall T. H. read my Charge against T. Hicks Stranger It is most fit that it be read by an indifferent Person T. Plant Very well you shall W. Penn Shall the same be read that was read at Barbican People Yea yea The Stranger begun and was interrupted by J. I. G. Whitehead The Auditory may take notice that though J. Ives have undertaken F. Hick's Cause that he is unprepared for he said he did not read the Books till last night Now ought he not better to have considered the Matter before he had engaged to personate T. H. If they will not pursue the Charge we shall conclude they are afraid We do suppose the Way they go is not the Way they would be dealt with them that is to pick things out of our Books Now if they would prove us no Christians it must be by somewhat that is generally own'd by the Quakers and you know I offer in the same manner to prove Baptists no Christians That is thus Some Baptists have denied the Divinity of Christ Immortality of the Soul the general Love of God to all Men therefore in their Manner I might as well from thence prove the Baptists no Christians as they have done against us I say some Baptists have been of the Opinions aforesaid Now if the whole Baptists will be concluded by those Particulars then they do as they would be done by The Baptists are divided and some may have unadvisedly laid down Arguments against the Divinity of Christ Now if the Baptists will go from Particulars to Generals let them consider if they would be

thou speak'st both of Persons Things Are not W. P. and G. K. Persons Now thou requirest us to wit W.P. and G.K. to give an Evidence of our Faith and Practice to prove our selves to be Christians which is not our present work to do as is already shewed and it is sufficient that we have the Witness in our Selves as the Scripture saith He that believeth hath the Witness in himself And Friends and all People here present I have one thing more of great weight to signifie unto you and that is to tell you that although the Baptists do falsely accuse us as deriving our Pedegree from the Jesuits yet it may appear how near a Kin they are to the Jesuits seeing I can produce a Jesuit who hath used the very same Argument upon the Matter against all the Protestants which the Baptists have this day made use of against us The Jesuit is one Dempster his Argument and the whole prosecution of it together with the Answers thereunto by one called a Protestant Munster J. M. is in Print the Title of the Book is Papismus Lucifugus See people how the whole Protestant Cause lieth at the Stake in the Defence whereof we with all true Protestants are concerned against the Jesuits and Baptists to their own Overthrow who take up the Papists Arguments against themselves J. Ives Give me an Evidence how I may know that you have immediate Revelation for your Faith and Practice from Heaven or from Hell G. Keith That is not my Task at present I do not impose it upon thee so to believe J. Ives Then we have done not a Word more G. Keith offered farther to proceed J. Ives refused W. Penn Then let me take up the Argument with T. Plant or Rob. Taylor They refused G. Keith offered to proceed with J. Ives thus G. Keith He is not a Jew that is one outwardly but he is a Jew that is one inwardly I offer to prove my self by as good Argument that I am a Christian as the best Battists in the World can produce J. I. would not hear but refused to reassume the Argument W. Penn J. Ives T. Plant R. Taylor What mean you by this Evasive Carriage Is this the Entertainment we receive from you after our Condescension to your Importunities first you declined our Charge Next Though you pretend to prove us No Christians you now clamour at us to prove our selves Christians And because we tell you it is not our part at this time since you undertook to prove us None you set your Company a Bawling for a Retreat But that you may see we will follow you into all your SHIFTS I will undertake the Proof of our being CHRISTIANS with any of you upon such Evidences as Christians and Martyrs have been wont to give and if they happen to prove No Evidences in your esteem I will make it appear that you not onely do conclude us but YOUR SELVES with the best of those you esteem Christians gross IMPOSTORS G. Whitehead Observe how far this Debate is gone 1st The Result of J. Ives his proving the Quakers No Christians is turned to a putting it on us to prove our selves Christians and W. Penn a Minister which was not the Question 2. That we must evidence that immediate Revelation is our Rule or else we are no Christians but Impostors but what Evidence that must be whereby we may convince these prejudiced Opposers he has not told us However be it observed that if true Christians must shew some Outward Evidence of their having immediate Revelation or Inspiration it follows that all even Baptists and others who now deny both or say they are ceas'd are No Christians 3. Suppose we do not or are not called to give an outward Evidence or Demonstration of our Christianity to the Conviction of all who require it or impose upon us therein it follows not that we are No Christians much less Impostors for there were some among whom Christ himself could not do many Miracles because of their Unbelief and others that said He cast out Divels by Beelzebub All true Christians were not Workers of Miracles Nor did the Apostles give such Evidence as made all believe and confess they were true Ministers for they were counted Deceivers yet true and so manifest in many Mens Consciences in the Sight of God And though we profess and experience immediate and divine Revelation as the Ground of our Faith and Testimony yet we do not profess or look on our selves as oblieged to make all that require Signs of us especially such as believe confess to us as such are in Enmity Prejudice against us However we have a Proof or Evidence in Mens Consciences c. Here the Baptists were earnestly urged by very many Persons to continue the Discourse W. P. calling upon them Do not run away Do not run away and adding W.P. If so to believe as to have the Witness in a man's self be sufficient to render a Man a Christian as holy Scripture imports then a Man's being a Christian depends not upon a distinguishing External Evidence from what an Impostor may give but the Evidence in Himself otherwise because an Impostor may make as fair a Show as a real Christian that hath the Evidence in Himself it would follow that He is as good Christian though he hath no such Witness in Himself If He be not a Jew that is one Outward but H E a true Gospel Jew that is one Inward then since an Impostor can imitate the Former and not the Latter it follows that A man may be a true Jew that is a true Christian who may not exeede an Impostor as to External Evidence Words or Forms If the Spirit 's of God witnessing with the Spirits of the Ancient Christians that they were Children of God was a sufficient Evidence thereof then since no Impostor has that Evidence and that Evidence is not visible it follows that a man may be a Christian by such a Testimony that doth not alwayes distinguish him by outward Observation to the Eyes of the World from an Impostor If Flesh and Blood could not reveal Christ neither could Flesh and Blood see or reveal that Revelation But will it therefore follow that Revelation was no Evidence in it self and that Peter was No Christian Note Reader Whilst W. Penn was speaking J. Ives T. Plant R. Taylor c. went their Way but the Auditory remained bating it may be of Two Thousand People not One Hundred that went away with them In short If Jer. Ives intended an Evidence that is such as should be convincing to Some-body though this is not absolutely necessary in it self as in the Case of a Man that is born Dumb or one struck Speechless upon a Sick Bed c. yet will it not reach the Terms of J. Ives his Question And if he intend by an Evidence such as should be convincing to every Body then I utterly deny it for by the same Reason the