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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	church_n	rome_n	time_n	2,757	5	3.6827	3	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A13210	The falshood of the cheife grounds of the Romish religion Descried and convinced in a briefe answere to certaine motiues sent by a priest to a gentleman to induce him to turne papist. By W.S.; Seminary priest put to a non-plus	Sutton, William, 1561 or 2-1632.; Sutton, William, b. 1607 or 8.	1635 (1635)	STC 23508; ESTC S100149	32,996	132

praesentis Ecclesiae Concilij Tridentini then all will come to nothing de effect saor l. 2. c. 35. q. d. Though all other councells were expunged yet that may stand by it selfe and so long we shall stand One thing more by the way I would haue you take notice of in Bellarmine how when hee had first endevoured to proue that the first foure generall Councels were all called by Popes just as your friend would haue it yet presently after in the same chapter he sets downe foure reasons why the Emperor did call call those 4. Councels and not Popes alone l. 1. de Concil to cap. 13. to 2. It is confessed by divers learned Protestants that the Romane Church was the true Mother Church which Christ our Saviour planted some for 300 yeeres some for 400. yeares some for 600. yeares c. Among other particular Churches planted by the Apostles the Romane Church with the first was of speciall note and the faith of the Romans in the beginning renowned through the whole world Rom. 1.8 But what doth S. Paul say more of the Romanes in that place The Romish Church not the mother of all Christians then hee doth of the Thessalonians elsewhere Read 1. Thes v. 7.8 2. Thes 1. v. 3.4 and you shall finde as great praise if not greater given to them then to the other What would hee inferre hence Did hee ever heare any Protestant confesse because he would so faine worke somewhat out of their confession that the Romish Church when it was at the best was the Mother of all Christians Or that the holy Catholique Church which we belieue in our Creed was nothing else but the Church of Rome Or because that Church was faithfull in the Apostles daies doth it follow that it must needs continue so still Egesippus an auncient Catholique writer saith that so long as the Apostles liued Virgo pura incorrupta mansit Ecclesia c. apud Euseb Eccl. Hist l. 3. c. 29. And whereas hee talkes of 300 and 400. nay of 800. years as if we did acknowledge Rome so long to haue bin the Church of Christ tell him for his further learning that we acknowledge her for a Church still though a most degenerate and corrupted one Whose doctrine is full of Novelty and her practise as full of pride and cruelty and yet a Church in respect of some truths that shee teacheth among many falshoods as a man that is heart-sicke and ready to dye ceaseth not for all that to bee a man so we likewise thinke of divers other Christians in the world though there be many errors in their doctrine and much scandall in their liues yet so long as they hold the foundation the name of the Church is not to be denied them and if your friend thinke otherwise tell him that his faith is never the better because his charity is worse then ours The corruptions of Rome But hee will deny perhaps that there are any such corruptions as we speake of growne into the Church of Rome What then meane so many grievous complaints made by men of speciall note in that Church long before Luther was borne Bernard in ●antic ●on serm 〈◊〉 What meant Bernard to say that there was putida tabes a filthy disease that had spred it selfe throughout all the parts of the Church that Ministri Christi in his time did servire Antichristo If nothing be amisse in the Church of Rome what meant Paulus Tertius to set certaine delegate Cardinals and others a worke to giue their advice how reformation might be made Or what meant those Cardinalls to write such a booke as they did called Concilium delect Card. aliorum Praelat which if you will read as it is extant in Tom. 3. Concil edit per Crab. editionis Colon. 1551. you shall find that their Church hath both rugas maculas Concil Trident. sess 22. d●eret de O● serb 〈◊〉 vit in cel bratione Missae as well in matter of doctrine as in manners What meant the Councell of Trent to decree that the Masse it selfe ought to be purged out of all such abuses as vel avaritia vel superstitio induxit if all were as it should be what needed such a reformation of your Breviary and Missal officium beatae virginis But that they were refertae superstitionibus and so confessed in Pij Quinti constitut super recitat offic Beat. virginis Read also his preface in Breviar Missale restitut Indeficiency of faith not promised to one particular Church Now let him answere himselfe how it may bee true that Rome was once a sound Church of Christ and yet is not so now Let him remember what Isaiah said c. 1. v. 21. How is the faithfull City become a Harlot Desire him to read that whole passage in the Prophet and he shall finde how changing of the name the words doe as well fit Rome in these daies as ever they did Ierusalem then And whereas he talkes of the promises of God it is but the same vanity that the Iewes were possessed with when they stood so much vpon Templum Domini Jer. 7. v. 4. The promises that Christ made to his Church that he would be with it to the end of the world That hee would send the spirit of truth to abide with it for ever that Hell gates shall not prevaile against it They were made to the Catholique Church and not to any particular one such as Rome is and to that Catholique Church they haue beene and ever shall bee most truly performed God will haue his Church vpon earth though Rome were as deepe buried vnder the earth as now she stands aboue it And to end with a demonstration Hee doth well to end with one for I am sure that from the beginning hitherto such Arguments haue beene geason with your friend and if this bee one Aristotle never knew what demonstrations meant in that kinde of argument the propositions ought to be evidently true and the conclusion to be drawne from the premises not by probable but by necessary consequence And here is no such matter The Patriarchall and Episcopall seates of the Apostles not extinguished That all the Patriarchall and Episcopall seates of the Apostles This is not true nay in saying so he doth vnreasonably overlash For it is well knowne to the world that there is at this day a Patriarch of Constantinople to whose Iurisdiction are subiect all the Christians of Asia minor excepting Armenia the lesse and Cilicia besides Circassia Mengrelia and Russia moreover that in Europe it selfe the Christians of Greece Macedonia Epirus Thracia Bulgaria Rascia Servia Bossina Walachia Moldavia Podolia doe acknowledge the Iurisdiction of that Patriarch and cannot endure the Bishop of Rome vnder this Patriarch there is the Metropolitan of Salonichi Thessolonica and thirtie Churches of Christians in that one Citty and no lesse then ten Suffragan Bishops subiect to his Iurisdiction besides this the Metropolitan of

the largest And Papists haue little hope ever to see it hereafter spread over the whole World Now because the Pope hath no jurisdiction in those parts nor ever had shall wee thinke therefore that Christ hath no kingdome there Or that the Grecian Armenian Jndian Aethiopian and other African Churches bee no Churches at all because they are no Popish Churches I omit to speake here of Protestants in Europe whose multitude the Pope knowes better then hee loues But for those other which I was speaking of it is certaine that either the Prophecies mentioned before are accomplished in those Christians or else they were never accomplished hitherunto at all eyther Christ now reigneth in those Churches or else his kingdome was never so large as it was promised that it should be And although it cannot be denied but that those Easterne Southerne Christians are much degenerated from their primitiue purity and there bee diverse things amisse in their profession yet they are Christians still and whosoever denies them that name because they are none of the Popes creatures hee robs Christ of more subiects then hee leaues him to raigne over Vbicunque timetur laudatur Deus ibi vera est Ecclesia August in Psal 21. The Church for the space of sixe hundred yeares was not only without this visible head but so farre from desiring it that when Iohn Patriarch of Constantinople an ambitious Prelate began to affect this matter he was told by Gregorie the Great that his course was Antichristian yet it is certaine the ambition of this Patriarch was no more then that which hath since broken forth in ambitious Popes vnder the name of their Supremacy and the same reasons which Gregory vsed against Iohn being many in number they conclude as strongly against Gregories Successors now a daies as ever they did then against the other Read Greg. on that Argument lib. 4. Ep. 30.32.36 alibi If the same question were made now to the Pope which was then made by Gregory to that Patriarch Tu quid Christo vniversalis Ecclesiae capiti in extremi iudicij dicturus es examine qui cuncta eius membra vibi conaris vniversalis appellatione supponere I thinke his Holinesse would be to seeke of an answere I am sure Gerson a learned Roman Catholike was so farre from thinking such a visible Head to bee any matter of necessity in the Catholique Church that hee thought the body might doe well enough though this head were taken off from the shoulders as appeares by his booke written De aufenibilitate Papae And so I passe from this description of the Catholique Church All that followes from thence to the end almost of the first page might well haue bin spared neither can I devise to what purpose it is brought in 1. That our Saviour Christ being a Priest for ever secundum ordinem Melchisedec Christ the head of the Church was the first visible Head and founder of the said holy Christian Catholique Church c. Hee is no Christian that doubts of it but when I heare him say that Christ was the first visible head of the Church me thinkes hee speakes strangely vnlessE hee thinke that Christ is now ceased to bee somewhat that hee was heretofore For why else did he not say in praesenti that Christ is the head of the Church as well as he is a priest for ever vnlesse he were afraid to hurt the Popes head Primus semper dicitur in ordine ad secundum secundus ad tertium Now if the Church by the death of Christ her first head got her a second head which was S. Peter why then vpon his death shee got a third head and so consequently hath had as many Heads as shee hath had Popes which is scarce good English 2. How farre the Clergy are to bee obeyed That Christ did institute a Clergy a Laity in his Church the one to preach and administer Sacraments the other to learne and to obey c. I hope hee doth not meane that the Clergy are freed from obeying the Gospell because they are bound to preach it But that Christ did institute such a distinction of people in his Church we know before hee told vs so Heere a man might suspect that some Priest had his finger in the framing of this writing in as much as when he speakes of the duty of the Laity he tels them That they are bound to obey the Clergy in all things touching their Faith a speech too lauish for any Priest to speake and too slavish for any ingenuous Lay man to heare except it be much circumcised they must obey in all things he meanes first the persons then the doctrine Ex personis fidem non ex fide personas And Champnies an English Sorbonist professeth as much l. de vocat minist c. 1. And so likewise Stapleton In doctrinâ religionis non quid dicatur sed quis loquatur attendendum est defens Ecclesiasticae autorit l. 3. c. 7. demon strat princip doctrin l. 10. c. 5. Which Tertullian thought a great absurdity and so disclaimes it Veritas docendo persuadet non suadendo docet adver Valent. Hic est sacerdos de genere Aaronis non decipiet nos 1. Mac. 7.14 so did some over-credulous Iews say of Alcimus but yet they were deceiued And so would your friend perswade you to belieue him because he is a Romish Priest and to take vp your faith vpon his credit But let it first appeare that their Clergy are so priviledged by speciall or common grace that either they cannot preach false doctrine though they would or that they wil not though they can then we are content they should bee obeyed in all things Alfonsus à Castro tells indeed strange things that hee heard a Dominican preach concerning the priviledges of his owne order l. 1. de haeres c. 9. but your friend goes beyond him and saies as much of every popish Priest such must bee obeyed in all things and therefore such cannot or should not erre and then vbi Papae infallibilitas what preheminence shall his holinesse haue more then every common Masse Priest Either this Pontifex maximus this high Priest must forbeare to say his Pater noster or forbid other Priests to say theirs or else they will goe cheeke by cheeke with him neque sufficit dicere neither can they say that they are all equall potestate ordinis only for they will be so potestate iurisdictionis too if they are to be obeyed in all things What will they say then that the Pope alone is the infallible Church to the learned Papist but to the common people every parish Priest is their Church to this I may answere that as Cotton seem'd to mistrust even the Popes infallibility when he desired to know of the divell the strongest proofe in Scripture for Purgatory Thuan. To. 5. fol. 1136. though hee needed not haue troubled the divell so farre when many of his owne