blood and yet if the matter was too hard the same man was a Judge and a Member of the Sanhedrim Deut. 17. Mr. H. his last difference The Iudicature of Classis and Congregations do not differ formally saith Mr. R. but onely in more or lesse extension of power Ans. Then there are no specifical acts that the one puts forth but the other can put forth as occasion shall require gradus non variant speciem then they can ordain officers and excommunicate in the Congregation He said before if there be the same office there is the same definition and the same causes to wit of election and choice of the Classical and of the Congregational Elders Ans. The difference is only of more or less as of a River and the whole Element though divers learned men judge the Congregation to be no governing Church at all but only their Elders the delegates of the Presbyterial Church which consisting of divers Congregations is the first governing Church 2. There are no sâ—â—cifick acts which the Elders collectively taken may not exercise in both the one and the other but then shall it not follow thâ—â— a single congâ—â—gational Eldership may ordain and exâ—â—mmunicate in one 〈◊〉 Congregation there alone divided from the body for congrâ—…nal Elders cannot teach oâ—derly and he is the God of ordâ—r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in his Church in all the Congregations without a calâ— Nor 2. Exercise the power of a Synod in them all 3. I 〈◊〉 this argument Archippâ—â— hath the same office to the whole Congregation and to the single mâ—mbers who chused him and whom he feeds or then he hath so many officer as there be chusing and fed members â—â—ught by the word and ruled which is absurd Eâ—go as the single voâ—â— of one member made him a Pastor to one and of a second made him a Pastor to a second and so forth So the â—otes of the whole made him a Pastor to the whole for that is the same officâ— thâ—â— hath the same causes and the same choice and election saith M◠〈◊〉 Ergo where the same causes are not the same office cannot be but one single electing vote and the electing votâ—â— of the whole Church by Mr. H. his way cannot be the same causes for one vote makes him not a Pastor 2. If Archippuâ— hath the same office to the whole congregation and to every single member then as he 〈◊〉 pastoral acts of teaching and ruling to the whole so to the parts and single members but this latter is denied by Mr. H page 104 who saith That a Pastor cannot put forth Pastoral acts but in the Church assembly A strange imagination Mr. H. By the same official power saith Mr. R. that a Pastor teacheth his own fleck viva voce he teacheth others by writing Ans This is a new invention that I never heard of before 1. The official power by which he preacheth he receiveth by election and he may be rejected from it by the people in case of delinquency 2. By his official power he may require them to hear but may not require all Churches to read his writings and if they offensively refuse to read he cannot censure them as he may censure them that refuse to hear the word 3. If this power of writing of Books to edifie the Churches proceed from his office all Ministers by their office should write Books 4. That which another may do with as much authority and more authority of truth as being more able yet being out of office that cannot belong to the officer but to write books is such Ans. 1 Official power is not from election but from the saying on of the hands of the Elders 1 Tim. 3. 1 2. 1 Tim. 4. 14. 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Tim. 2 2. Tit. 1. 5. 2. It is true that a Pastor cannot require by his office those of another Congregation to hear him preach and receive the seals from him nor censure them if they refuse but it is a bad consequence of Logick therefore he doth not exercise these pastoral acts to them by his office as the Brethren grant 2. A Minister by his office may require his hearers to give much alms pray much read and confer much both these of his own and other flocks yet he cannot censure them for not coming up to the highest pitch of these affirmative duties except he may rebuke them and so may he do all who are remiss in reading edifying writings and the Church may censure unsound books Acts 15. 24. 3. Neither Mr. R. nor any judicious man can teach that either a gift to write Books or of eminent preaching praying exhorting proceeds out of a power of office it is a sanctified gift which the Church seeth and judgeth to be in any before they call him to office and any gift is by order of nature and time before the office and so proceeds not from the office and therefore it is not required that every Pastor should have a gift of writing books but if the Lord have given it to any they exercise it as such gifted officers as the Prophets and Apostles as such Prophets so gifted did write Canonick Scriptures so are Pastors if gifted to write and preach in their way and both to write and preach by their office Nor is it good Logick that all in office should write books because some by vertue of their office writ books for a Minister gifted with four Talents is obliged to gain with these four Talents and that as a Minister by vertue of his office but it is weak Logick to infer Ergo all Ministers by vertue of their office are obliged to gain with four Talents for many are obliged by vertue of their office to gain with only two to their Lord and with only one 4. It was needless to Mr. H. to prove writing of books doth not belong to the power of office because a learned man out of office may do it with more authority for Mr. R. had no such intention For sure if such a thing agreed to the office-power as the office-power then all Officers Pastors Elders were obliged to write books and yet Mr. H. does not very happily prove it because many learned men unofficed may with more authority of truth write books then officed men It is only some officed men he must mean or it is not true And then I retort it thus many officed men may write books with more authority both of truth and of office and two are better then one then some unofficed men less learned Ergo some gifted Pastors do not as Pastors so gifted and by vertue of their office relating both to the presbyterian Church and their own Congregation edifie all the Churches about by writing books It follows not Mr. H. We are told that Elders are ruling in all Churches collectively taken and they are teachers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in some reserved acts not constant teachers he that rules teacheth but always the
of Asa his continuing obstinately in these evils be well known M. H. M. Ruthurfurd maintainâ— That such as are admitted must 1. Not be scandalous 2. Must be baptized after the order of Christ 3. They must by their profession notifie that they are true believers Ans. How they are not scandalous how baptized in Christs order and so must repent for their own personal comfort and salvation is to be tried Ergo They must be to us real converts before they be admitted is a feeble consequence The third I never require before they be admitted Members M. cannot reade that in my writings but forged it of his own as is answered by me Mr. H. p. 32 33. If I must not enter willingly into any unnecessary civil society with such as have a shew of godliness and deny the power thereof and such as are named brethren but are idolatrous far less should I enter into a spiritual society of faith with them Ans. What this reasoning meaneth I know not But 1. it is unlawful to you to enter your self a visible married Member of that Church where one is to be admitted who is known to be a scandalous hypocrite as he is described 2 Tim. 3 1 2 3. Yea suppose in all Churches you finde some scandalous you are to joyn to some visible Church on earth But this is 1. Unlawful for say that one would refuse to marry any at all because no woman on earth could satisfie his minde hardly could that single life be lawful if God give not the gift of continency But say it were lawful to live single and to marry none because of such humorous impediments yet it cannot be lawful to live out of all Church-fellowship without all Church-ordinances suppose you were in an Island where one onely Church is 2. Suppose one be married and fixedly joyned to such a Congregation and divers Members turn like the Members of the Church of Sardis divers become such as are 2 Tim. 3. 2. Lovers of their own selves covetous boasters proud blasphemers disobedient to parents c. the Apostle saith We are to turn away from such now the Elders and Flock refuse to câ—… them out If that turning away 2 Tim. 3. be meant of separating from the Church we must not turn away from them except the Church to which we were married give us leave which were strange And it is like this is not Mr. Hookers sense for he maketh it less free to turn away from a Church to which you are married than not to joyn to it as it is less free to the man to leave the wise to whom he is once married than not to marry and so he makes the Church a Prison As for the place 1 Cor. 5. he forbids intire conversing with the Excommunicate Bullinger he forbiddeth intimate fellowship with them Mayer saith it is the arguing of Anabaptists which yet pious Mr. H. here followeth We should not eat with them Ergo we should not joyn in Church duties with them But Augustine citeth Cyprian Because we see tares in the Church yet let us not separate from the Church for saith Augustine When the godly and the wicked partake of the same Sacrament neither the cause nor the person is hurt Entring in Church-fellowship some one or other though there be some scandalous persons tolerated and desended in all the Churches is not voluntary as to marry or not to marry but a necessary Ordinance of God for he lives as a heathen in a condition of sinning who is a Member of no visible Church Mr. H. These are not sufficient requisites in one to be a Member which may be in a drunkard who is not to be a Member but to be cast out Ergo to be kept out But these three assigned by Mr. R. 1. To profess the Faith 2. Eagerly to desire the Seals 3. To desire Church-fellowship counting it a disparagement not to be born again if not admitted to the Sacraments may agree to a drunkard Ans. For the ordinary drunkard he is either born and baptized in the Church or he is a Pagan and an ordinary drunkard having these three If the former be said he is born a Member of the Church and so the question is concerning his casting out not concerning his receiving in I confess I know not how Mr. H. could answer the question himself concerning children born in their Church of Parents Father Mother that are Church Members though such live 60 or 70 years never baptized and have these three requisites and be free of gross scandals they could not admit such to the Lords Supper The Ministers should have some extraordinary call of God to preach to such as Paul had to go to preach in Macedonia Act. 16. for by our Brethrens way they have no right by way of Covenant from the parents but onely a providential right to preach the Gospel which requires an extraordinary Apostolick cast As for the other if the man be a born heathen and shall come to get these three requisites and profess as Magus did he is to be received a Member but if he hath not these three requisites for he lives in Sorcery as Magus and Elymas and opposeth the Gospel the openly lying profession is scandalous such a profession Mr. R. faith is not his requisites If he be a Pagan and continue in habitual drunkenness he may be holden out while he gives evidences to others of amendment and then he may be admitted to the outer court as a heater though a profession of faith if not belied with worshipping of false gods can hardly consist with Paganism CHAP. XVI Of the principal and prime subject of all the Priviledges of special note bestowed in the Mediator Christ upon the Church Mr. H. p. 1. cap. 3. pag. 23. 1. WHether the invisible Church be the principal prime and onely subject of the Seals of the Covenant pa. 3. Ans. It is not such a subject by any argument that Mr. R. brings But Mr. H. frameth a question of straw as if I had moved it and disputes against Mr. R. My words are The invisible not the visible Church is the principal prime and onely subject with whom the Covenant of Grace is made to whom all the Promises do belong and to whom all titles styles properties and priviledges of special note in the Mediator de belong p. 248. The Promises are preached to the whole visible Church but for the Elects sake yet they belong in Gods intention and gracious purpose onely to the Elect of God and his redeemed ones to that invisible Body Spouse Sister whereof Christ alone is Lord Heâ—d Husband I wonder then if Mr. H. did reade my book when he will dispute such a Question with me 1. Whether the invisible Church and the Elâ—ct be the prime subject of the Seals A question that hath no sense nor any favour from Mr. R. For can the Elect of which some are not born eat and drink
follow them in as far as they follow Christ. Nor is delegation the formalis ratio of determining synodically it is only a necessary condition of determining and of synodical judging Obj. But Mr. R. saith Amen to this distinction of Mr. Parker Ans. True these two fitness and gifts together with a commission make a man a commissioner and messenger of the Church but delegation makes him not a formal Definer and a Judge nor do the Churches send them as officers but as such eminently able and faithful men who have hazarded their lives for the cause as Act. 15. 25. and they determine as such eminently holy and able officers their delegation is a thing of meer order because all cannot be sent nor doth it create them of new officers nor yet such eminent officers for they were both these before only their delegation puts them in an actual orderly capacity to determine formally Ut approximatio ligni aridi ad ignem non est formalis ratio comburendi Mr. H. Mr. R. l. 1. p. 305. to 309. runs all upon this the power of the keyer by order of nature is only in the Catholick representative body but the power of the Keyes was before there was any Representative some 300. years when there was no Oecumenick Councel and since the Churches give their power and officers to the Assembly they had that power before the Assembly Ans. Read from c. 10. sect 10. p. 289. to p. 346 347. where I speak of the Catholick Church I say only that such a synodical power of the Keyes as is dogmatick especially for light and peace as Mr. Cotton speaketh is first by order of nature in the Oecumenick Councel the doubting and contending Churches cannot bind Ecclesia dubitans non docet Ecclesia errans non judicat Ecclesia contendens non ligaâ—n on solvit for the doubting the erring the contending of Churches are no ordinances of God and erring and contending Churches cannot heal themselves and therefore the healing power is seated by Christs appointment in the synodical Church which is more diffused and stronger as is clear when the Churches of Antioch and Iudea are broken renâ—and sick the wisdom of God Act 15. hath appointed that these should meet in a Synod of the select and choicest parts Apostles and godly Elders Ergo the healing power of the Keys must be first in them 2. Mr. R. runs not but assâ—rts lently that power of the keys in binding and loosing and in opening and shutting heaven in the latitude of preaching and censures Mat. 16. was not before Christ gave it to the Apostles the then Representative of all the faithful guides to be in the Church christian to the worlds end and this grant was made to Peter and the Apostles not as to such private men Simon such â—ishers but by evidence of Scripture truth 2. The testimony of all sound Antiquity 3. The judgement of Protestant Divines 4. Canons of Councells 5. The Doctrine of sounder ancient School-men and Popish Doctors Occam Alenâ—is Almain Gerson Bonâ—venture c. not only not 300. years after but before Christs death and confirmed before his Ascension to heaven That ever Mr. R. said that the power of the Keys in their latitude of binding and loosing was in an Oecumenick Councel a Representative of formally sending Churches and a body of formally sent Commissioners is utterly denied and no where to be seen in any book that ever he wrote Such as cite him at random would remember 3 that I teach that the power of the Keys 1. In its latitude is first given to the Apostles Mat. 28. 19 20. Mat. 16. 18 19. Iohn 20. 21 22. Mark 16. 15. Act. 18. as the only then Catholick representative body sustaining the person of all officers to the end of the world and so the first formal subject of the power of the Keys in its latitude is not either the congregation or congregational Eldership nor the Presbytery or Synod all these are but parts and to make a quarter or a part of the body of the Sun the first and adequate subject of light and a quarter or a part of the body of the Element of water the first and adequate subject of the cold and moistness since these qualities are kindly in the rest of the quarters and parts of the body of the Sun and the body of the Element were bad Philosophy So the adequate first complete formal subject of this power must be the integral Catholick body of the guides as existing in their several Churches for this power is as kindly and natively in the guides of this Church as in the guides of that Church and equally in all 2. The power of the Keys as this power synodicall is considered either in the breadth of synodical power and so to condemn Catholick errors and heresies is in an Oecumenick Councel and where the local distance of visible Churches is greater and wider the external visible communion in being edified or scandalized is less and less use there is of censures A General Councel being onely necessary for the optimum esse the most Catholick union and peace of the Catholick Church that such a Councel is an ordinance of God Mr. Cot. proves from Act. 15. 3. As the power is narrower it becomes narrower then Oecumenical and descends to National to Provincial to Presbyterial to Congregational and all these are parts only 4. Though the Churches send Officers to the Synod and have some power of the Keyes in their kind before the Synods have being yet Mr. H. can hence conclude nothing of his purpose against me for it follows not Ergo the male-congregations have the complete power of the Keys in its latitude before the Synods have being nor does it follow that congregational Churches or Presbyterial have that complete power before Synods have being nor do they confer if we speak accurately a synodical power of the Keys they only send messengers who are materials of the Synod but the synodical power is in its parts scattered in the Churches of the Province and Nation as Immes of Gold in divers parts of the Earth and the synodical power comes from the institution of Christ who promises the holy Ghost and fulfils his promise as Mat. 28. 20. compared with Act. 15. 28. Nor can the scattered Churches bring forth of themselves any synodical power of the Keyes when they are met in a Synod the promise made to such as are gathered together in his name does the business and therefore that is soon blown away It is unpossible that a proper quality can be either in nature or time before its subject thâ— gives it beâ—ng but the power of the Keyes was 300. years before there was any General Councel in the world For this proves only that some certain power to wit formally synodical cannot be until the Synod be 2. Grave Divines judge the Synod Act. 15. to be a General Councel but though it were
It s true they may say he plays the Tyrant in that but yet God hath given him the onely supreme power both to inquire saith Mr. H. and judge of Professions and Religions which is true and ought to be maintained which is false and ought to be rejected And if so the many godly who fled from Old England to New England because of Prelatical Tyranny of conscience did believe that the late King Charles had power as a King to judge the Service book and Ceremonies imposed upon the godly in England yea and upon Scotland also was the onely true Religion and had power given him of God as supreme Magistrate to command all the three Kingdoms to be of the Kings Religion or then let them all be banished out of his Dominions But is not this to make the King a Pope and the onely carver and Lord of the Faith and Religion of his Subjects and so the King by his Office is the Messenger of the Lord of Hosts and a Royal Prophetical Teacher who watches for the souls of all his people What Scripture puts the King in such an Office 2. Did not the godly and sound condemn such an Headship in the Oath of Supremacy and in the Kings Proclamation in which he as King commands all to receive such a Religion as he thinks fit even the substantials of the Mass and no Prayers but book-prayers the other Prayers being fancies And this command is equal to a pastoral or Synodical Decree 1. Because it comes from the King having no act of the Church but onely having taken the counsel of his Clergie and so by civil power peculiar to his power Royal and place as Mr. H. speaks p. 56. 2. Because its the onely form of worship he thinks fit 3. Because he commands it to all Ecclesiastick persons Arch-bishops Bishops c. as the onely Spiritual Pastor of Pastors on earth Hence if Christ hath given such power it s not lawful without breach of the fifth Command to embrace or profess any Religion in a Christian Kingdom except it be first instamped by or with the Authority of the King the Head as the Chaplain calls him of the Churches by his Royal Authority Yea our Book of Canons say that Christian Kings now have the same power in causes Ecclesiastical that the godly Kings among the Iews had And are they not then Prophets by office and may write Canonick Scripture as David and Solomon did and so we must not without Rebellion profess the Faith or the Christian Religion but when and where such as the King commands us contrary to Mat. 10. 32. or we are to confess Christ before men but not except the King teach and command a confession and such a confessor 3. Paul must have told us Eph 4. 11 12. of the King as well as of the Apostle given to edifie the Body and gather the Church if so be that he is the onely supreme Iudge of true and false Religions And he must be some spiritual officer and one who chooseth a God and a Religion to his Subjects and he must be â—he holiest Subject who can say The Kings God is my God When I read this I was sad to see Mr. Tho Hooker speak and write like the Royalist Mr. Rich. Hooker 4. The Magistrate supreme and inferiour except Mr. H. be an Erastian is a member of the Church and under the Scepter of Christ in the preached Gospel and to be edified by the Word Seals Rebukes and Censures for otherwise He that despiseth you despiseth me and if he hear not the Church let him be as a heathen and Faith comes by hearing must suffer a strange exception in the person of the King he may despise pastors and the Church without guiltiness for he is above the pastors and carves their Religion and prescribes as our cited Proclamation saith the causes why Bishops should excommunicate and censure to wit if they refuse the Kings Religion and Mr. H. warrants him by a power peculiar and supreme so to do 5. We reade not that the Kings of Israel and Iudah prescibed what was true and false Religion but were subject to the Priests and Prophets who spake the word of the Lord and the Prophets rebuked Kings as Ieroboam and others for intruding themselves in that office Moses Samuel David Solomon were Prophets 2 Chron. 36. 16. Isa. 50. 19. 6. The Magistrate is the Minister of God and bears the Sword to take order with evil doers and is Custos vindex utriusque tabulae and the Religion is supposed to be before the Ruler 7. It s somewhat heathenish like Numa Lycurgus who to procure obedience and authority to themselves gave out that they prescribed what Religion was true and that they conversed much with God 8. All questions and controversies of Religion in the Nation must be determined all cases of conscience resolved by this Pope who onely can determine what is true and what is false Religion and the King must be the Oracle and Priest with whom onely the Urim and the Thummim must be 9. All fallings against Religion must be Treason against the King whereas Kings and people are rebuked because they hearkened not to the voice of the Prophets not because disobedient to the word of the Lord in the mouth of the King Either this is to take both the Swords from the Pope and to give them to the King or it is nothing for without controversie the King bears the Sword to take vengeance of him that doth evil Rom. 13. 4. 1 Pet. 2. 14. and whosoever determineth by his supreme power what is true and false Religion to all the Subjects must bear the other Sword 10. M. H. makes out his Assertion thus Kings could not provide for their Subjects to live in godliness and honesty except they had power to inquire and judge of true and false Religions Now this is spoken of Nero and of heathen Kings 1 Tim. 2. 1 2. But out of doubt God never made heathens that are enemies to true Religion supreme determiners of true and false Religion And if this agree to Rulers as Rulers as M. H. saith it is peculiar to their power and place then all Rulers Heathen Christian high and low sound in the faith and corrupt and heretical should be carvers of so many sundry Gods and Religions But the next Reason is ill and worse if because the King is a Nurse-father to the Church he must be father and a begetter both of Religion and of the Church because he protects and defends the true Church then true Religion must be before him As also when Mr. H. saith that the Prince is a Nurse father to the Church he means the Independent Church onely so that he owes no protection to Presbyterians nor justice to them And if the Nurse-fathers care be that there should be a right opinion and worship openly professed within his Territories the Magistrate is to do this no other wayes but
is not for the visible kingdome of Christ in concreâ—â— as ruled by Christ includes the elect and true Beleevers for whose sake are all officers word seales 1 Cor. 3. 21. 22. 2 Cor. 〈◊〉 15. Eph. 1. 22. M. H. The Church in her constitution is considered two wayes 1. as totum essentiale or homogeneum or as totum integrale In the former notion The Church as a City without a Mayor hath right to choose its officers and becomes totum organicum when officers are in it Ames Medu lib. 1. cap. 33. 18. Ans. 1. The argument must so runne What ever a City without a Mayor may doe that may a company of Beleevers so combined without officers doâ— Ans. Nothing more false but of this hereaster A civill free Corporation may appoint this or that Government 2. May limit the Mayor to one yeere to so much power no more but M Hooker his new Church cannot doe any of these Amesius there saith not a company of Believers without Officers is a Politick Church The Scripture in Old or New Testament never said it M. H. As for the manner Parish precincts or dwelling within the bounds of a parish cannot make an ecclesiastick right to Church-membership For 1. it is but a Civill right that a man hath to his house 2. Excommunication cutteth a man off from the Church as if he were an heathen but not from his house which is his by birth or purchase 3. Yea so Papists Turks Dogs should be Church members to whom Christ hath denyed all right Revel 21. 27. Ans. We grant Parish dwelling simply in a Professor gives not right to be a member of the City of God but Parish dwelling tali modo is a necessary condition without which they cannot be fixed members of that congragation to meet in one house suppone after supper as Act 207. 1 Cor. 11. 20 21 22. and therefore we condemnn our brethren who failing on the other extreme will have persons residing in Old England to be marryed members to one onely Congâ—…on vâ—…ble in New England and to no other visible Churchâ—… 〈◊〉 and deny all Church-communion of the Catholick 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to all visible Professors who are sojourners 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—â—â—range excommunicating of visible Professors 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 residence for shall they watch over one another as they are obliged by a Church oath suppose their Church be beyond the Line and they on this side of it 3. This full well shall gratifie Anabaptists who will have it no mercie that infants are born in Zion or in any Beleevers house as the Scripture saith it is Gen. 17. 12. Psal 87. 5. 1 Cor. 7. 14. Rom. 11. 16. the reasons are not so sure for birth does it not but to be born of such Parents at Corinth makes over to the Infants of Believers a to be born in Zion to be born in beleeving Abrahams house Gen. 17. 12. Psal. 87. 7. a right to be members of that Church else upon what right shall they be baptized As for the place Rev. 21. 27. Pignetus Pareus Piscator Diodati English Annotators Bullinger Nepar expone the place of the Church in heaven Marlorat and many others of the invisible Church and the Text excludes all from that Church but such as are written in the book of life and so to me it is unpertinent to the purpose and not concludent CHAP. II. Of visible Saints 2. M. H. reasons to prove that his visible Saints are only members of the visible Church are discussed MAster Hooker first states the question then brings reasons to prove such visible Saints to be the onely matter of the visible Church Saints in charity are such in practise and profession if we look at them in course by experience or report as they savour so much as they had been with Iesus From all which so much as rational charity directed by rule from â—kâ— Word a man cannot but conclude but there may be some seeds of some spirituall work of God in the soule Answ. If any one word of God were given to prove what must be proven it were good 1. That Magus all the three thousand Act. 2. all the multitude baptized by Iohn Mat 3. Mark 1. 5. Luk 4. were to Philip to the Church of Saâ—aria to godly Iohn Bapâ—ist to the twelve Apostles such in practice and profession as they savoured so much as they had been with Iesus so heavenly a savourinesse is not in one jot holden out in the Word the Baptist looks on them as vâ—pers and was it fit to omit the styles of Saints justified sanctâ—fied 2. The Tryers most have experience of their practice and profession this shall take dayes and moneths to eat as they say much salt with them the Apostles that same day in few houres time baptized them Act. 2. Who can believe that the huge multitude lived on Locusts and Wild Honey in the Wildernesse untill Iohn should experimentally find a generation of vipers moulded into a new frame to savour of the things of the spirit 3. There is nothing here of 1. Tryers and Judges 2. Nothing of a Judicaâ—ure 3. Nothing of Letters Witnesses Testimonies from the Churches 4. Nothing of the rule of the Word compared with their habituall conversation which must take a tract of dayes 5. Nothing of a sentence admitting some for their spirituall savourinesse rejecting others for that bad smell and denying them Church-fellowship untill they be better tryed all conjectures 1. The conclusion is not any thing but a may be and that may beare a may not be and if it were proven by the Word that Professors right to the Covenant of God to the Word Promises Seales depended upon mens rational judgement of Charity it might quiet the conscience But aâ— shall not the Lord be a God to a people except the people themselves judge in the judgement of charity that the people so consederate savour all of them as if they had been with Iesus and except they from experience can conclude there may be some seeds of some spirituall work of God in the souls of all these people Ah the Lord then cannot say to a nation and a society I am your God while first he asks the Churches leave M H. 1. Reason The members of Christs Body are fit alore to be members of a true Church because that is the body of Christ. 1 Cor. 12. 12. Ephes. 4. 12 13. But onely visible Saints who according to the rules of reasonable charity may be conceived to have some speciall good in them are onely members of Christs Body For to have a member which neither doth nor ever did receive any power or virtuall impression in the kind of it from the head is not onely against reason but against that reference and correspondence which the members have to the head Now visible Saints onely according to the former explication can be said by the rules of reasonable charity to have some virtuall influence of
They speak not feebly but rationally who say that rationall discoursing as fixed in a man is an essentiall mark of a man M. H. par 1. c. 2. pag. 19. M. Rutherfurd said the argument is nothing against us such adulterers Psal. 50. as are not to take the Law in their mouth are to be cast out but the question is whether if they be not cast out the Church for that be no true Church M. H. Answer the first part yieldeth the cause again for if they should be cast out there is no reason they should be received or taken in nor have they any right thereunto nor be they fit matter Answ. M. Rutherfurd is not such a yielder of truth as so for M. Hookers argument yieldeth more thus these who are worthy to be casten out had never right to be received in as Church members so M. H. But adulterers who take the law in their mouth known adulterers so M. Rutherfurd yieldeth and no otherwayes are worthy to be casten out ergo adulterers who take the law in their mouth had never right to be received in as Church-members 1. M. Hookers proposition is most false for thousands as Magus and others worthy to be casten out had right Church right of that onely we speak such as pastors can give them to be admitted members so the Scripture so M. H. part 1. chap. 2. conclus 3. pag. 27 When then both the proposition and assumption are taught in Scripture granted by M H see now who yieldeth the cause 2. to say if they should be casten out ergo they had never right to come in is as if he wouâ—d say such a woman hath committed harlotry with many men beside her husband ergo she had never right to be a married wife and was never lawfully marryed and so hath neither committed adultery nor deserveth a bill of divorce 3 No more can follow from this that adulterers once admitted to membership falling into scandals ought to be casten out ergo if they had been under the same scandall visibly they ought not to have been taken in but this supposeth a begging of the question that there is in Scripture a gathering of Churches of visible converts out of Churches of men and women born and baptized in their infancy within the visible Church which yet I say was never dreamed of by the Apostles and though it were so whether we speak of such a gathering or of gathering of Churches out of Pagans persons not capable of Gospel-scandals before their admission which may hold them out as they are guilty of Gospel-scandals after they profess the Gospel For then an unmarried woman might be capable of adultery with her own husband before she be married upon him 2. as to that which M. Rutherfurd said that supposed they were not cast out the question is whether the Church for that be no Church M. H. saith that wholly misseth the mark again for the question is twitching the constitution of the Church of what matter it should be made it is not twitching separation from the Church To which I answer because I dispute against both these of the congregation and the Separatists our brethren having no arguments but such as Separatists and Anabaptists have and with more vigour prosecuted then they because I conclude against separation as well as against them having to do with two adversaries and giving one answer to the one which yet is not taken off and another answer to the other it is not equal dealing to say the answer to the Separatists wholly misseth the mark because it is not the same with the answer to the congregational way 2. M. H. declineth an answer to that which I said against the separation that if any were not casten out it followeth not that the Church leaveth off to be a Church and must be separated from But our brethrens practise in New England is if any Church do not cast out such as deserved to be cast out to non-communion them and declare them to be no Churches of Christ and so they must be separated from which can be upon no ground but because they maintain a Church to be no true Church consisting of false matter and visibly unregenerate and would M. H. have Church-Communion kept with such yea his arguments first and second which are both but one though he find out four where there are scarce three prove them to be no visible Church for he must stand by this as his own These to whom Christ is head and king by the influence of politick guidance and motion of the head as leige subjects are the onely fit matter of the visible Church and the onely true visible Church But such as deserve to be casten out and are not casten out yea are owned still as Church-members are not such to whom Christ is head and king Ergo such leave off to be members and are not a visible Church the proposition and assumption both are M. Hookers I confesse when an answer cannot be taken away it is a compendious way to say not one word to it but simply the answer doth wholly misse the marke M. H. must say a Church of false matter is no Church or then with us a society professing the pure doctrine of Christ though the members be wicked is a true Church CHAP. VII M. Hookers reason why he passeth in silence the arguments of his own book of discipline of the Churches of New England for the constitution of a visible Church and defendeth them not a scanning of these arguments MAster Hooker part 1. ch 2. pag. 19. passeth in silence the arguments of the way of the Churches of New England except a gentle hint he hath at the first but he omitteth the nerves thereof onely he bringeth four arguments of his own in my apprehension inferior not a little to the arguments of learned M. Cotton it was wisdome so to do onely in the place pag. 15. he giveth us a short list of his visible Saints we are saith he from rationall charity to say and hope and so are bound to conceive they are Saints converts and internally justified so Iudas Magus Ananias c. though hidden hypocrites were such and therefore our Saviour proceedeth with such not as God who knoweth the heart but in a Church way as these who Iudge the tree by the fruit the Church cannot judge of bid things nor censure them Answ. 1. Then the Saints faithfull brethren temples of the holy Ghost at Rome Ephesus must be proven to be visible Saints from the Scripture from such a visible Saintship as our Saviour and the Apostles saw in these goodly ungodly Saints Iudas Magus c. for if these titles conclude that they were internally converted and chosen to grace and glory c. as Ephs. 1. 3. 1 Thess. 5. 10. 2 Thess. 13. 14. 1 Cor. 3. 16. as they do then must all and every visible member of these Churches be visible elects
and predestinate to glory which if our brethren say of all the members of all these visible Churches suppose Magus and Iudas had been among them it is easie for any to prove the contrary 2. but if so be that these titles prove they were all internally converted and that our visible Church must be such or else they are falsly constituted then how shall Demas Magus find roome in the visible Church as true members since they were not such if it be said that the argument which proveth that they weremore may well prove the lesse and that they had all the visible Saintship that Magus Iudas had we shall grant that but then you must stand by this argument Such as were the members of the Churches of Corinth Rome Ephesus Thessalonica c. by these places cited by the discipline-discipline-book of new England chap. 3. sect 3. pag. 56. 57. 1 Cor. 12. 27. Ephs. 2. 22. 1 Cor. 3. 16 17. 2 Cor. 11. 2. 1 Cor. 1. 2. Galat. 1. 2. Math. 16. 16. to 19. such ought the members of our Church visible to be or then they are constituted of false matter But the members of these Churches by these places were really and internally converted and justified Ergo our Churches visible must also consist of these that are really and internally converted and justified or then they are constituted of false matter but the conclusion is false and absurd for so Christ and the Apostles erred even proceeding in a Church way in admitting Iudas Magus to be members for sure they were not internally and really converted and justified and yet M H. maketh them true members and his visible Saints it was wisdome therefore to M. H. to bury these arguments and to contradict his own book of discipline which page 57 saith that Christ taxeth the pastors by whose connivencei the man wanting the wedling garment came in friend how camest thou hither M. H. saith nay they were not taxed that man conveyed it so cunningly that onely the master of the feast pe â—â—ived it others did not discover it page 29. but all dependeth on the making good the assumption that these places prove that they were inwardly and really converted which I make good by these reasons 1. the Holy Ghost expresly saith they were the habitation of God through the spirit temples of the holy Ghost espoused to Christ as a chast virgin ergo they were really such to say that Paul speaketh according to the judgement of charity only and in a Church way is to beg the question there is not a word of any such judgement of charity in the Scripture and our brethren have no law to adde to the Scripture to help their own cause 2. If you adhere to this argument you must say with M. H. that Christ hoped and was bound to conceive by the fruits of Iudas his life that Iudas was a Saint and might have some seeds of some spirituall work of God in his soul and yet Christ saith have not I chosen you twelve and one of you hath a devill and this he knew from the beginning Iohn 13. 11 18. because Iesus not as God but in a Church-way dealt with Iudas and such I remit it to any man if Christ failed against charity except he believed Iudas to be a convert before he betrayed his hypocrisie what warrant in the Scripture for this 3. What ground that the Apostles in charity believed and said that Demas Magus were converts temples of the holy Ghost chosen to life as the Ephesians 1. 3. and Thessalonians 2 Thâ—s 2. 13. or then they had sinned in admitting them to the visible Church and baptizing them 4. Whereas he sayeth the Church judgeth not of things hid whether the Churches of New England do not judge and heavily censure though they will not give it that name all the baptized in their Church whom they exclude from Church-membership and the Lords supper all their life as if they were Pagans because they have not so much charity as to believe them to be visible converts judge reader But say they this will not prove that they were internally and really converted because Paul saith so of them to which I say then upon the same account must we expone these places Ephes. 2. 4. God rich in mercy hath loved us and when we Paul and converted Jewes and Gentiles were dead in sinnes hath quickened us together in Christ in the judgement of charity and in a Church way onely 6. and hath raised us up together and hath made us fit together in heavenly places in a Church-way verse 10 we are his workmanship created unto good works and we who verse 12. were sometimes without Christ strangers to the Common-wealth of Israel 13. are now made neare in the blood of Christ and verse 18. we who were strangers have accesse by Christ through one spirit unto the Father onely in a Church-way by politick guidance of our head Christ and the like must be said of all the reall internall work of the spirit upon the hearts of all the Saints at Ephesus Colosse Corinth Thessalonica c. so they were by this reason light in the Lord quickened had Christ dwelling in them by faith were sealed translated from death to life c. in a Church way and from none of these places can we conclude that they were really and internally converted for all these places and reall works of grace must agree to Iudas Magus and to all such visible Saints because all Churches visible rightly constitute must be made up by this argument of such visible Saints else they are false in the matter and not according to the pattern of Apostolick Churches 3. The assumption is made out also thus as the Apostle calleth them the body of Christ the habitation of God temples of the holy ghost so also he blesseth God and rendreth thanks to him that had chosen to life the Ephesians blessed them with all spirituall blessings in Christ bestowed on them adoption redemption forgiyenesse of sinnes the inheritance of glory Ephes. 2. 13 4. c. ordained the Thessalonians not to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Iesus Christ 1 Thess. 5. 9. 4. had chosen them to salvation through Sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth 2 Thess. 2. 13. and upon this buildeth their comfort and faith I Thes. 54. 9 10. 11. so Coloss. 1. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14. now what joy comfort faith thanksgiving can have place if these places be not understood of such reall internall graces as election conversion c. as Iudas and Magus neither have nor can have otherwayes all the hypocrites as Magus and Iudas have a like lively consolation with all the chosen of God and Paul must blesse God because he had chosen called justified c. such as Magus and Iudas 4. I wonder the way of the Churches should cite 1 Cor. 3. 16. for visible Saintship which dependeth on
divers congregations to be acts of Adultery 3. It makes a Pastor to be married till death 4. When the congregation is dissolved by persecution the godly Pastor is cast out of his Masters service by the nature of this covenant because he is faithful to Christ and that by Christ himself 5. It divorces between all godly Pastors and all Churches on earth so that it is not lawful to preach pastorally or to tender the seals to another congregation or any member thereof though Letters of Recommendation as our Brethren say may give Church right to the seâ—ls to those of another congregation to be admitted to the Lords Supper yet we still desire to Quere Whether the Pastor upon the banishment or death of the Pastors of sister congregations may not lawfully pastorally preach and tender the seals to them or not if the former here is a strange man acting as a husband to another mans wife 2. Here is a Pastor acting as a Pastor and a Shepherd to those that are not his flock and that by no intervening of a Church-covenant and he wants the essentials of a Pastor which is the choise of that people 3. Here is Mr. H. his relation between Pastor and People broken and their principles destroyed if the latter be said 1. What difference is there between his tendring of the seals to those of another congregation in his own Church and in another Church except the walls of the house make the difference 2. Why should he not tender the other seal of Regeneration common to all covenanted ones Act. 2. 39. as well as the Lords Supper 3. If he may not as a Pastor in another congregation How or by what authority of Scripture are Pastors onely Ambassadors of the King Messengers of the Lord of Hosts Workers with Christ Stewards Dispensers of the Mysteries of the Gospel Sent of God Friends of the Bridegroom and can act onely as such within the precincts of a congregation and lose both name and thing when they pass over the line to visible Saints of another congregation The Priests might not offer sacrifice and offerings but in the place that the Lord should appoint in his Word shew us a word confining pastoral acting 〈◊〉 Ambassadors to one flock onely 6. This destroyes the communion of Churches as Churches and makes Synods in which Pastors act as Pastors to other congregations associate as Mr. Cotton teacheth to be no Ordinances of Christ. 7. The same husbandly power must be in Doctors so that they write not books as Doctors to other Congregations but onely to their own 8. What Scripture warranteth the same Pastor in the same Sermon preaching to his own flock and to many strangers of another congregation to act as a Pastor to his own onely and to others as a gifted man and to hear in the same word to the conscience of the one by pastoral authority and to the other by private authority such as a gifted plowman or woman hath 9. Onely Christ is the Bridegroom Spouse Husband of his Church Ioh. 3. Eph. 5. Cant. 6. 1 2 3 4. and it will not suffice to say Christ is the supreme Catholick Husband of all Churches but the pastor is the under-politick head and husband of the congregation as some distinguish For the Husband and Bridegroom are as incommunicable Titles proper to Christ onely as to be the Head of the Church Eph. 1. 22. Col. 1. 18. and yet Jesuites do but mock when they say That Christ is the principal and perpetual Head of the whole Church in a soveraign and principal manner but the Pope is the Ministerial Head Nor do Papists make the Pope a Father Husband Bridegroom and Head of the Church by the spiritual influence of life motion and grace yet are they refuted by Willet D. Fulk Cartwright and ours And Mr. H. will but ad nausâ—am inculcate that the Pastor is the married Husband and the Congregation his onely Wife and that he may not act as a pastor toward others than his own flock more than a man may venture to take the place and to do the duties of a husband to a woman and tell her he is in the Covenant of grace and there needâ—… Marriage-covenant Hence I infer he cannot dispense the Lords Supper to one of another congregation contrary to himself and his Brethren except he be married by a Church-covenant to them and so he must be a husband and perform the duties of a husband to a hundred persons of a hundred associate congregations But it had been fit Mr. H. had produced any words of mine that bear that being in the Covenant of grace can warrant a man to discharge pastoral duties either to one congregation or other before he be lawfully called of God by the Church and before he formally consent and engage not implicitely but formally and expresly to feed the flock of God or that any mans being in the covenant of grace licenses him to do all duties whatsoever of a Pastor of a Magistrate of a Husband of a Physician bâ—fore he be lawfully called of God to the calling of a Pastor a Magistrate a Husband a Physician And Mr. H. wrongfully would that the Reader should believe That Mr. R. so teacheth There are some actions indeed that the visible and professed being in the covenant of grace warranteth a man to do to wit to partake of the seals in all congregations without any new Church-covenant to gain a trespassing brother to counsel teach rebuke comfort Church-members of all congregations where it shall please God he shall be for the present And Mr. R. denies that these are either pastoral or husband-duties and thinks Mr. H. in a great errour for if one of another congregation should trespass against a member of a sister-congregation near by Mr. H. hath furnished the offender rebuked with this Reply You and I are not congregational Brethren nor married members of the same congregation and therefore the covenant of grace warrants not you to rebuke me or to tell the Church of my obstinacy in Adultery except you and I had both sworn in the same Marriage-congregational covenant for the covenant of grace no more warranteth you to gain me in a Church way than it warranteth a man to do husband-duties to the Woman with whom he never made any Marriage-covenant and so all duties of this kinde performed by Presbyterians never so godly must be Antichristian and adulterous Mr. H. This new Covenant makes the new adjoyner a member of the congregation saith Mr. R. never 〈◊〉 of us saith Mr. H. said any such thing The Church as totum essentiale made of visible Saints covenanting to watch over one another in a Church-Way is before her officers the particular members are members before they choose their Pastors and therefore are not made Church-members by this new covenant Ans. There be too many wayes to the Well here I said the new covenant makes the new adjoyner a member of the
Now that is the true meaning of Mr. H. for this of Mr. R. must bide yet strong these that have no Church-power can put forth no Church-act Such as one Church may put forth toward another single Sister-Church as Mr. R. often granteth as one single man cannot excommunicate another yet one single man being a Pastor in a Church Judicature joined with the Church binding and loosing such as is Mat. 18. may give consent not private by way of counsel but publick by way of authoritative influence as a partial and collateral cause that Paul Gal. 2. be authoritatively adopted into the number of the Apostles that they be excommunicate who say they are Apostles but are not and do lye Rev. 2. and a married wife hath no marriage-power over any man but over her own husband nor is it to be heard which Mr. H. saith I but she may put forth an act of love and counsell to all men But I ask may she put forth a certain act of matrimonial love or perform a certain matrimonial duty to all men on earth this would be too near unchast acting So let Mr. H. answer whether these three Iames Cephas and Iohn gave Apostolick publick consent that Paul should be received an Apostle or only a private counsel If the former be said why contend we if the latter what more had Paul from the given right hand of these Apostles then he had before he was no more to them an Apostle then before yea more to three private Believers in Galatia contrary to the scope of Gal. 2. These Churches sent to the Parliament that way not representing the National Church and Kingdom covenanted with the Lord can give no Church-determination more then so many single Pastors yet it is an official judgement not a private judgement Mr. H. It is not warrantable that one not in office saith Mr. R. but a private Christian should pray exhort preside in the framing of a Church and in ordaining of Pastors Ans. The practice of the Church of Scotland will say to this we allow not publick prophesying of unofficed men Ans. 1. Here is ordinary prophecying such as that of the Apostle Peter at the calling of Matthias Act. 1. and publick Church-prophesying and praying such as is by the Prophets or presbytery of the Church of Antioch Act. 13. when Paul Barnabas were called to be Apostles to the Gentiles and since officers are but adjuncts of the Church to Mr. H. and separable accidents by no institution of Christ have pastors hand in ordaining pastors but the setled way till Christs second coming is that the male-Church kindly per se make and unmake all the officers which cannot be done but by Church prophesying of unofficed men 2. Expectants being pastors in fieri sons of the prophets by command of the prophets vi materiae for trial must prophesie that you cannot warrantably say from Scripture of your prophets LIB II. CHAP. I. Whether or not a company of Believers destitute as yet of Officers and combined together by this new Covenant be truely called and be in truth and indeed a Church MR Hooker moves the question whether such a company be a Church indeed by which he insinuates that it is a certain kind of a visible Church but not the only visible Church instituted by Christ in the New Testament Therefore Mr. H. stands obliged either to form the question in other terms or to shew which is the only instituted visible Church in the New Testament for the discipline-Discipline-book of N. E. saith that Church which Christ in his Gospel hath instituted to which he hath committed the Keyes the Officers Censures is coetus fidelium a combination of the godly called a particular visible Church And Mr. H. comes to our hand and so with a trumpet giving an uncertain sound he tells he speaks of the Congregational Church as it goes before Officers which is a Man in the Moon and proved by no Scripture at all Mr. H. The trumpet here gives an incertain sound M. R. expressions are so full of variety Ans. It is a groundless charge except you bring expressions of Mr. R. ambiguities which is not legible to the Reader I blow the trumpet alwayes against such a visible Church as Mr. H. forgeth by arguments from the word which are not answered Mr. H. A Church ministerial is taken two wayes 1. Generally as implying any delegate power in the exercise of any Church-acts under Christ. So a company of visible Saints hath power of admission of members and election of officers and in case they prove heretical to reject the officer and make him no officer All these are granted by Mr. R. Ministerial power is taken strictly as it includes an office power so it is not ministerial Ans. Mr. H. dictates but neither teaches nor brings one word of Scripture to prove a distinction that hath neither head nor feet 2. The members of the distinction are coincident for to ordain officers and excommunicate them is governing strictly and most properly as is in the second member And yet in the first member to excommunicate makes a ministerial Church largely so called The distinction is a begging of the question and destroyes it self for it is to ask whether visible Saints wanting such as are the only Governours and Rulers who are called in the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Cor. 12. 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Tim. 5. 17. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heb. 13. 17. Rulers be a ruling and a governing Church for a Society that doth ordain Elders and which censures them if heretical with excommunication must be a Ruling and so a Ministerial Church if there be any Ruling and Ecclesiastick Church on Earth If any say that a Society that appoints Stewards and Officers over the house and excommunicateth them is not a politick governing Society they may deny that the man which maketh use of reason is a reasonable creature And to frame a distinction and say a man is a reasonable creature in that sense is poor Logick We can give instances where the Presbytery ordains and layes on hands 1 Cor. 4. 14. and where Titus and other Elders are to ordain Elders in every City Tit. 1. 5. and Timothy and in him others are charged to lay on hands and ordain no man suddenly while he be proved to be a fit Officer 1 Tim. 5. 22. 1 Tim. 3. 10. and where Timothy and others with him are commanded 2 Tim. 2. 2. to commit the ministry to faithful men who are able to teach others Would Mr. H. shew so much for the power of Rule in a company of Believers void of Officers or give us a shadow of reason in the word from precepts practices promises for this new Church that ordains and excommunicates without Officers they should have something to say to this who upon good groun◠say they coyn a new Church of their own unknown to word Mr. H. indeed elswhere saith
absundity to say She destroyeth her own Ministerial feeding her own sacramental communion by which she is one body with all the Saints on earth as the Brethren grant and its sure from 1 Cor. 10. 16 17. 12. 13. as touching any spiritual well-being and feeding by these wretched feeders but they have no authority to do it I see no inconvenience why a Corporation may not out and lay aside all their Aldermen and Major if they turn Lions and Leopards and so destroy the present individual Government while they labour their own safety and the safety of their priviledges But the case is not alike except Mr. H. prove That the Church of believers hath the same positive power of Government intrinsecal without their officers and onely fathers who begat them to Christ to use the Keyes and formally to excommunicate them as a free City hath over their Magistrates 2. If the officers die sure the organical Church dies and the organical and the ministerial and politick essence of that visible Church as it is totum integrale dies 2. I retort the Argument When the Church of the Jews Acts 13. 18. turns heretical and blasphemes and refuses to be the married wife I speak in our Brethrens language if the Church of officers reject them and turn to others it shall not follow 1. That the officers destroy their own husbandly power while they labour their own preservation which is the great absurdity that Mr. H. puts upon Mr. R. as enough to cast the cause 2. Shall it follow That the officers without the people or governing without yea contrary to their consent is a true visible Church in no sort Mr. H. When the tents are removed they are not the shepherds tents to remove the candlestick is to remove the Ministery and remove all the Officers the Church is not a body visible eating one bread 1 Cor. 10. 16 17. So Mr. R. But Mr. H. answers Yet they are called tents fit to receive shepherds and are the same they were before the shepherds were chosen and remain the same To remove the candlestick is to remove the Ministery because Ministery and Ministers have their dependence on the Church destroy the man the whole you destroy the parts but it holds not contrariwise its true in a Ministerial Church i. e. an organicum totum when you take away any part you lame the integrity of it but you dedestroy not the essence of it as it is totum essentiale Ans. It is enough to me if ye remove all Officers and Shepherds it is no ruling Church though the fitness of choice which is no act of government do still remain yet the fitness to ordain and to excommunicate remains not for they never had it Luke distinguishes the one from the other Acts 6. 3 5. the multitude 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 chused not the Apostles but the twelve Apostles not the multitude ordained them by praying and laying on of hands v 6. as the Elders do and they only in the New Testament 1 Tim. 4. 14. 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2. It is good that Mr. H. grants that to remove the Candlestick is to remove the ministâ—…y I hope he means the shining burning and guiding Ministers and Watchmen 1 Tim. 3. 1 2. Mat. 5. 14. Ioh. 5. 35. But in the other page 91 32. It is cross to all mens apprehensions saith he that the Candlestick should include Candles and Lamps 3. Nor is it true in Mr. H. his way that to remove the candlestick is to remove the Ministry for there remaineth a preaching and a praying Church which is at the ordaining of Officers and sending them Act. 1â—15 6. 24. Act. 13. 1 2 3. Act. 6. 6. which doth only make and unmake officers saith Mr. H. 4. Destroy the whole saith he and you destroy the parts but it holds not contrariwise why not contrariwise if you destroy all the parts otherwise the Logick is naught take away eyes and ears and hands and feet and all the integral parts or all the essential parts and you destroy the whole in any sense too much of this Logick Mr. H. gives us 5. Take away saith he in an Organick or Ministerial body a member you lame the integrity Now the ministry and officers are removed by the people because they are heretical as Mr. H. teacheth page 90. I pray you remains there a ministerial or organick body no saith M. H. there remains a homogeneous body 4. Take away any part you lame the integrity take then away the ministry you lame the body O Logick the ministry is a separable adjunct to Mr. H. page 92. Here it is an integral part is an integral part an adjunct is the eye an adjunct of the organical body is the integrity hurt because a separable adjunct is removed 5. Nor is this true take away any part in an organical body and you lame the integrity it is only true of an organical part not of any part take away ten members believers only the Church remaineth an entire and unlamed integral body let ten free members of a City be removed by death yet the City remains an unmaimed entire body of Citizens ruled by Major and Aldermen 6. Remove the ministry the essence and organical body remaineth not Mr. H. That which is added is more beside the cause It is granted where Officers are not there is no communion of the Sacraments is there therefore no Church-communion Ans. If this communion be removed there is no communion of the Church which being many members is one body 1 Cor. 10. 16 17. 12. 12 13. And what reason but a Church and the only instituted visible Church in the new Testament as the book of Discipline of N. E. makes it should be a complete Church in being and operation and partake of all Church-communion though it want the officers which are to Mr. H. but poor harmless separable adjuncts page 92. and this is somewhat for the cause M. H. We have done now with the first Quere and made it clear That this Church is before all Officers and may be without them Ans. So Mr. H. hath done and made it as clear as midnight darkness with whole two Arguments the one whereof is a poor Grammatication and scarce that and the other a begging of the question that there is a ruling Church before and without officers which may make and unmake officers CHAP. II. Of the Nature and Being of a Presbyterial Church Mr. H. The qualification of the Church as totum essentiale in the order and prâ—cedency of it in regard of her true Officers we have dispatched Now we speak of it in comparison with a Presbyterian Church Ans. Let not then the Reader exprest any visible Church organical to be spoken of Organs are but separable adjuncts the only Church spoken of and acknowledged by Mr. H. and our brethren is an homogeneal Church of onely believers which Mr. H. now calls the Church before
teach any of them or all of them is not sinful But sure the Apostles might govern send their decrees and Epistles to many Churches the members whereof they never saw in the face Nor could all the many thousands who had power of judging with the Elders as our Brethren say meet in one place comely and comfortably to act and therefore Christ so must never have appointed such a judicature to rule all these congregations who are entitatively one so must they say what we say and more For all the congregations on earth are entitatively and in nature one and yet our Brethren will be far from saying that they are all under one government as they say that these meetings at Ierusalem were M. H. The rest of the examples of Antioch Ephesus Rome though it were granted upon their greater growth and increase and so want of Elders they might meet in divers places for the while these might still be under one presbytery their officers in a distinct manner attending upon them And therefore Gerson Bucerus in his answer sayes here Quis adeo ineptire sustinuerit c. Who can say that because they meet in divers places they were under divers Presbyteries or Elders Ans. 1. This is a short way of answering with a leaving out of the Church of Samaria a great City wherein all both men and women were baptized the Church of Corinth of Thessalonica c. 2. And yet there is no lesse cause to say all the Saints at Rome Antioch Ephesus Samaria could not meete in one place then that these of Ierusalem could not 2. If they might meet in divers places for the while and yet be under one Presbytery Here is a Presbyteriall Church of many Congregations for a while Here is a Prelaticall and Antichristian Government for a while at least ordained by Christ. And Mr. H. writes a Book with a huge noise of absurdities with which he burdens his Brethren the Presbyterians yet he will suffer their Church to stand for a while 3. Who told Mr. H that a Presbyterial Church may stand for a while during the time of the growth of the the Church of Ierusalem Antioch Ephesus but no longer for when the swarmed out Churches are once setled the Presbyterian Church must downe againe since the Scripture speakes nothing of this Who gave Mr. H. leave to set up an Antichristian Tabernacle for so is the Presbytery to him for an houre and pull it downe again 4. It is a wonder that Mr. H. should cite Gerson Bucer cuttedly as a Witnesse so much for a Presbyteriall Church not in the swarming out of Churches onely of which Bucer hath not one word but in the setled state of the Church for Bucer contradicts Mr. H. and all his as foolishly erring when they say such Churches meet in divers places for the Word and Seales Ergo they are independent in their government and cannot be under one common government Bucer saith if they lie near together it is folly to say they are under divers Presbyteries and so say we Mr. H. 2. It doth not appear out of any Text nor any evincing Argument gathered therefrom that setting aside the Church of Jerusalem they should needs meet in several places Ans. Then the Church of Ierusalem met in sundry places by Mr. H. his argument but this shall offend the dissenting Brethren that maintain against the Synod at Westminster that they meet all in one place 2. Mr. H. should have given a reason why the Church of Ierusalem met in sundry places and not the other Churches of Antioch Ephesus but because he saw our Arguments run as strong for other Churches as for Ierusalem He was pleased to dictate what he could not demonstrate and so leave the Reader in the dark 3. Before I leave this let Mr. H. or his teach what is meant by this that there were about three thousand added to the Church Act. 2. 21. whether by the Church be meant the one hundred and twenty of which ch 1. and whether there the one hundred and twenty were there to receive the three thousand as members at that time in a judicial way And if they were not there how the three thousand were not added primarily to the Catholike Christian Church that then was and secondarily to this or to that Church as we say For when there were said to be added to the Church they were not added to themselves Mr. H. 3. Let it be considered whether by Church may not be meant many Churches Saul made havock of the Church i. e. of the faithful of many Churches Ans. It is weak as water Saul persecuteth the Church i. e. members of the independent Church Ergo there is no Presbyterial Church Ergo there is not such a thing as a Synod for he persecuted Iames Peter and the Elders and Brethren members of the Synod where he might find them now the Apostles were not fixed member of congregations and let Mr. H. consider whether Luke gives not a better interpretat on then he Act. 83. Saul made havock of the Church entring into every house and haling mâ—n and women and committed them to pâ—ison So that Saul destroyed the scattered members that were nâ—t inchurched and where he found any of this way Act. 9. 2. whether members of a congregation or not even members of divers meetings under one Presbytery as he grants he persecuted them And by this the Church at Ierusalem Act. 11. 22. must be Churches congregational at Ierusalem And Act. 2. The Lord added to the Church such as should be saved that is the Lord added to divers Independent Congregations such as should be saved good but this Church and these common Elders meet for acts of Government Act. 2. 18. and the day following Paul went in with us to Jâ—… and all the Elders verse 25. were present Sâ—re the place shewes they meet for acts of Government Yea Act. 11. 30. 21. 18. They sent alms to the Elders of Iudea to be distributed to the distressed in Iudea As also the Elders of Iudea were members of the Synod Act. 1â— And how could there be administrating of the seals without any jurisdiction at all to debar the unworthy CHAP. IX The Arguments of Mr. R. for a Ministerial Church from Matth. 18. are vindicated from the Exceptions of Mr. Hooker MR. H. If Christ allude to the Synedry then must Mat. 18. be expounded of a Presbyterial Church Mr. H. both Proposition and Assumption is denied Ans. Mr. H. leaps from one Book to another I no where frame an Argument from a meer allusion but so if Christ so allude to an authoritative company that hath power of binding and loosing as the Jewish Sanhedrim in this Mat. 18. then he judgeth the Church Mat. 18. to be a Juridical Church 2. It s a poor Argument he alludes not to the Jewish Synagogue because that Synagogue had no power of Excommunication as this Church Mat. 18. hath
congregation when that Church is dissolved are no more baptized and as Pastors cannot exercise pastoral acts but to their own Church neither can they act as baptized professors in another Church baptizing being a Citizens solemn incorporation to the Church and by this way to the Church independent only as a man that is only a free Citizen in Norwich cannot for that be a free Citizen in York or perform the acts of a free Citizen in all free Cities in England as he can perform them in Norwich And suppose that Norwich lose its freedom the man is a Citizen of no free City of England for as he is made solemnly by admittance into the Church into which he is baptized a visible member incorporated by Baptism as by his Burges Writ or Burges Ticket when the City is dissolved and no free City either his Burges Ticket to be a member of that City is null or then by his Burges Ticket he was made a member of all other congregations Iohn Baptist and the Apostles Act. 8. Ioh. 3. after a confession never asked for their conversion but baptized for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 straightway without delay even in the night for so the word noteth Matth. 21. 19. Luke 4 39. 5. 25. 8. 44. The Jaylor and his house Act. 16. Cornelius and his house Act. 10. the Eunuch the multitude of Iohn Baptists hearers were baptized members of the universal Church 1 Cor. 12. 12 13. where there was no particular congregation to receive admit them as members as Mr. Richard Baxter solidly observes nor is it worthy the refuting that the Apostles by an extraordinary power might baptize them though to no certain Church but Pastors now have not that power for the Apostles baptizing and preaching and administring the other seal differ not in species and nature from the ordinary pastoral acts of an ordinary Minister they speak with tongues work miracles as Apostles but they preach and baptize hic nunc as ordinary Officers And as to the other part the calling of a Minister so must be up and down as he officiates to his own Church he acts as a Pastor as to these of another flock he tenders the Lords Supper as a gifted man 5. Though a congregation be of Divine right and Paul be assigned to teach the Gentiles Peter the Circumcision Gal. 2. by an ordinance of God yet it follows not that Peter acts not as a Pastor when he baptizes Gentiles or that Paul acts not as either Apostle or Pastor when he baptizeth the Jews and that Paul was ten hundred times a Pastor and again no Pastor as God called him to act pastorally in ten hundred congregations and went from them for the call of Gods divine leading where to preach and where not in Macedonia not in Bithynia Act. 16. but the local division of congregations and provinces as the second General Councel defines and that the provinces that belonged to Ephesus were added to Constantinople as Socrates saith was from custom When the Bishop of Spalato defending the Supremacy of the Pope saith that he thus differs from other Bishops that he is universal Bishop of all the Churches on earth but other Bishops are Pastors of their own particular Diocesses and Chu-ches D. Ioan. Crakanthorp Chaplain to King Iames wrot a learned book in which he proves that all Pastors are Pastors of the Church Universal habitu actu primo as well as the Bishop of Rome especially because in General Councels 2. and without them they are to care for all the Churches on earth 2. That the particular designation of single congregations is by no divine right assigned by Christ but by the prudence of the Church 1. For if it were not so there could be no transporting of Ministers from one Church to another 2. Because Churches then could not be enlarged nor diminished nor changed which we see may be done Cyprian as most sound in many things so in this is to be considered we are saith he Many Pastors but we feed one flock We saw how Mr. H. was pleased to fall upon me because I said that every Pastor is a Pastor to the Church-universal by exhorting in Word and Writ yea by ruling in Councels and is not tyed as a Pastor to employ his labours to one single flock only we therefore condemn in our Brethren 1 That the care pastoral of any Church but of one congregation of which the man is Pastor Iure divino quasi glob◠affixus is perished since the Apostles died 2. That they distinguish not between a Pastor as he is a Pastor to all Churches as the Lord in providence shall call and between the same pastor as tyed to his single Church rather than to another by no divine right but the prudence of the Church which is not infallible 3. That it is utterly unlawful to transplant Pastors upon any necessity of the greater good of the Church against the law of nature Mr. H. 2 Arg. It s in the power of the Church and Fraternity to admit members Ergo to cast them out as appears in the admitting of officers Ans. 1. Observe the circular probation between this and the former Argument as is said 2. Give us one Scripture or jot where the Fraternity is either called the Redeemed Church for so women are not Redeemed or the governing Church for the officers are not Rulers or let Mr. H. give us a third Church 3. That the Fraternity onely and no women gave their tacit consent to the chusing of Matthias Act. 1. of the Deacons Act. 6. of the Elders Act. 14. 23. since their consciences were concerned and they are parts of the fed and redeemed Church as well as men can never be proved and who can deny women to be of the plebs people and fraternity as Cyprian speaks and of the brethren that Paul Iames and the Apostles wrote unto Doth not Cyprian divide the Church in stantes la psos were there not women that both yielded to the Persecutors and denied the truth and stood to the truth and suffered Reade Cyprian cited by Mr. Cotton and in other places M. H. 3 Arg. Either the people have a causal virtue in judging or onely a consent the latter cannot be To consent to evil is sin to dissent from a just sentence makes them to hinder the execution of a just sentence Ans. This is already answered and hath not the weight of the some of the water Elders have either a causal virtue in judging or onely a consent the former I see not how they have Mr. H. Mr. Tho Goodwyn and Mr. Philip Nye give them onely an authoritative directing power such as Parents have in the marriage of their daughter which is an authority extrinsecal which the Magistrate and Pastor in their kinde have but the Virgin hath the onely formal and intrinsecal power to consent and so to make the marriage and to
dissent so as it shall be no marriage In which case the Fraternity onely or Male-Church formally intrinsecally judgeth and may judge though there were no officers as the Maid may marry though Parents and Tutors were dead and the directive authority of the officers may be wanting as the directive authority of the Magistrate may be wanting 2. The officers cannot consent to a sinful sentence it s not their duty to sin nor can they dissent from a just sentence for then they might hinder the execution of a just sentence and the officers shall keep communion with a man whom the people excommunicates and that the people may erre is too well known in the condemning of Ieremiah of Christ and of others And whereas he saith The dissenting shall blemish the wisdome of God it s answered already It blemishes our folly but not his wisdome when people are divided from Rulers and Rulers from people 3. There is a midst between consenting to an unjust sentence and a dissenting from a just sentence to wit a consenting by the judgement of discretion tacitly to a just sentence in which there is a causality popular nor judicial nor juridical coming from the inherent power of the Keyes Mr. H. Arg. 4. It crosseth the rule of righteous proceeding to understand the Church Mat. 18. of the Elders onely Suppose three Elders in a Church all have been convinced before witnesses in private of an offence they will not hear the offended brethren must tell the Church that is they complain to these three Elders of these three Elders and make the guilty both judge and party in their own cause 2. Suppose of these three two be offenders the grieved party must tell the third and so one shall be the Church Ans. This inconvenience follows clear from the hampering of all power of the Keyes within one single congregation in the midst of six congregations round about 2. The Book of Discipline of New England saith A Church Independent may consist of four officers and three brethren three brethren are offenders if they cannot in this case tell the Elders onely for they are not the Church Mat. 18. saith Mr. Hooker Ergo the three offending brethren must complain to the three offending brethren and make themselves both Judge and party therefore the Argument necessitates us to tell the Elders of associate Churches Mr. H. Arg. 5. If the power of judgement be in Rulers then it is either in some or one to wit Peter and to hâ—m derived from the rest and that is Popery or it is in them all equally for those that are equal in commission are equal in power but that is not for the teaching Elders are in degree and also in power superiour to the ruling Elder Ans. The issue of this Argument is to strip the officers naked of all power of Rule and Mr. H. must take it away off his own way as well as off ours 2. The teaching Elders are worthy of double honour above the ruling Elder 1 Tim. 5. 17. for they speak to us the word of the Lord Hebrews 13. 7. and are the Ambassadors of God who in Christs stead beseech us to be reconciled to God 2 Cor. 5. 20. Their feet are pleasant because of their message and in this have power above ruling Elders and those who serve Tables Act. 6. and above the brethren and Church as being sent of God with pastoral power not onely vi materiae by vertue of their commands but as in an Epistle is spoken judiciously to this purpose by Mr. Tho. Goodwyn and Mr. Philip Nye by reason of their Ministerial Authority Now how they can be equal in commission of judging to the people is the question for as the woman is independent in regard of intrinsecal power of consenting or dissenting in point of marriage the Parents directive power of commanding extrinsecal as the judicious Prefacers say so the Fraternity is the onely judging society by them Yea Mr. H. saith The Elders are superiour to the fraternity or brethren I would he had said to the sisters also in office rule act and exercise and in managing the censures are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 overseers by Hen. 13. 17. How are leaders and overseers in the same managing of censures equal in power and not above those whom they lead and oversee yea to whom they are to yield obedience as Mr. H. cites to that purpose the place Heb. 13. 17. are Parents equal in power who do command the Virgin whose it is to consent to the marriage 3. Let the godly Reader consider whether the Brethren though believers yet ignorant of the mystery of Balaams doctrine and of Iezobils teaching Rev. 2. and of the learning and qualification of pastors and of the deep and subtile Heresies for which pastors must be cast out are by the Word of the Lord equal in judicial power and trying of Doctors and Pastors with the Rulers whose office it is to know more of the minde of God than Brethren and whether are they by Divine Institution so Mr. H. If Rulers alone have power to excommunicate by Mat. 18. then may three Elders excommunicate 400 or 500 brethren and if so Rulers should not onely censure the fraternity but destroy themselves for where no flock is but all are excommunicated there are no shepherds Besides as Ames saith a body cannot be cast out of it self Ans. 1. Observe in all these six Arguments there is not one jot of Scripture but the one Magna Charta of Mat. 18. where yet Mr. H. will not stand to the signification of the word Church 2 They are not there alone to excommunicate the Church of believers without the consent of the Church and we judge it no way of Christ to excommunicate not 400 onely but six thousands who all made one congregation of Ierusalem say our Brethren But Mr. Cotton saith well in the case of the defection of a congregation to blasphemy and persecution and no help by a Synod is to be hoped for the Elders may withdraw and separate disciples from them and carry away the Ordinances with them and denounce judgement against them 3. D. Ames whose name is savoury in the Church of Christ saith But if a Church should be excommunicated then a body having and retaining its essence should be cast out of it self No Judge can properly punish himself but the Presbytery and Synod may declare a Synagogue of Satan to be a Synagogue of Satan 4. It is against the meekness of Christ and not warranted by any Scriptures that faithful pastors that are pastors to the universal Church should be unpastored because this or that particular flock to which they were sent leave off to be the flock of Christ that is as much as because they are faithful in his house Christ will have them cast out of his house The argument will conclude That the Church excommunicating all the officers destroyeth it self Of this before also
CHAP. IV. Mr. Ruthurfurd's Arguments that prove that the People are not the first subject of the Keyes are vindicated from the unsatisfying Answers of Mr. Hooker MR. H. That is not to be held that is neither in Scripture directly nor by consequence But that belivers lay hands on men for the Ministery or receive witness or have in them any such power of Government is such So Mr. R. c. Ans. The first three Arguments touch not the question for office-power is formally in some select persons who have a Ministerial spirit and gifts Mr. Robinson saith The Government before and under the Law and in the Apostles time and still now is not in the multitude but in some chief men But it follows not because office-power which is a little part of the power of the Keyes is in officers therefore the power of the Keyes is firstly in the officers but firstly in them who gave both the power and the office and therefore had a power before they gave it and therefore can take it away Ans. Mr. H. hath quickly expeded my Arguments with Veni vidi vici It is a scorn to say without all proof that the office-power is a little part of the power of the Keys For the includent by no Logick is a part of the thing included the City is not a part of the House which is a part of the City but the contrary now the office-power in Rulers includes preaching administrating of the seals as Mr. H. grants and also it includes a power of binding and loosing and of ordaining since the holy Ghost gives rules of right ordaining of Elders to Timothy and to Teachers 1 Tim. 3. 1 2 3 10. 1 Tim. 5. 17 18 22. 2 Tim. 2. 2. Tit. 1. 5 6 7 c. as to Pastors not as to Believers and by this to rebuke censure shall be no ruling at all if Mr. H. deny ruling power to agree to Pastors as Pastors or to be a part of office-power because ruling power in officers is common to both officers and brethren 1. He begs what is in question for the brethren are ruled and to obey and not Rulers 2. If it be said ruling power is not office-power it s replied that Mr. H. saith that the Elders are superiour to the Brethren or male-Church in regard of office rule act and exercise Now if ruling be common to both officers and the Brethren or such a male-Church of the redeemed then are not the officers as officers superiour to this Church in rule yea this Church giveth power and taketh away the power of governing by way of censure from the officers and so the brethren in ruling must be above the Officers as for the superiority official in preciding and managing the actual dispensing of censures as Mr. H violently alledges Heb. 13. 17. to this purpose it is a ruling over the ruling of the Brethren the like whereof was never heard the mouth of a Judicature ordereth but judgeth not the ruling and judging of the Judges Again if officers be both officers in teaching administrating the seals watching over the manners of the people and also in dispensing censures with the Elders then must office-power take up and include both official acts and also judicial acts and power in governing Ergo the power of office is not a part of the power of the Keys but the whole power of the Keys 2. It is not to the purpose to say that Government is not in the multitude as in the first subject for then the multitude and Church of Redeemed that meets in the same place for all the ordinances is not the instituted Church to which the offended must complain by Mat. 18. nor is it the first subject of the keys Expound to us then Matth. Tâ—ll the Church i. e. tell some select persons the Church of some males only excluding women aged children servants alas that is not the Church Mat. 18. nor the New England instituted Church which is defined to us in the first words of their Book of Discipline for that is not a Church of selected persons but includes men women servants children of age as I demonstrate from their words 1. The Church which Christ in his Gospel hath instituted to which he hath committed the Keys of his Kingdom the power of binding and loosing the tables and seals of the covenant the officers and censures of his Church the administration of all his publique worship and ordinances Is costus fidelium a company of believers These are their words But I assume some select Brethren only is no Church 1. To whom Word and Sacraments onely are due 2. Such only are not such a Church as the Church of Corinth justified sanctified 3. Such only is not the company that meets in the same place to partake of all ordinances as they teach for women aged children servants were justified sanctified partakers of ordinances as well as select Brethren Ergo the visible Church instituted by Christ is not the first subject of the power of the Keys except you mean the virtual subject then it is not the first formal subject as fire is of heat nor is the complete virtual subject But Mr. H. saith cap. 11. sect 2. page 192. The power of the Keyes is committed to the Church of confederate believers as the first and the proper subject thereof Pro. 1. page 193. That the power of the Keyes is seated in the Church as the proper subject is no novel opinion â—b We will suffer years to speak a little in this place The place of those that Peter sustained in Mat. 16. to them the keys were given But Peter speaks in the name and sustained the place of the Church as the Antients Origen Hillary Augustine frequently troops of our Divines say Ans. I pray our Brethren do the Fathers mean the Church of visible Saints the multitude of Believers or go our Divines in troops along with them in the formal first and proper subject of the Keys as fire is the first formal subject of heat As Mr. H. page 193. Now I judge Mr. H. means his own only instituted visible Church in the new Testament that meets together in one place for the ordinances if I should say the whole element of fire is the first proper and formal subject of heat and yet exclude four quarters or parts of this body as utterly uncapable of heat were I worthy to be called a Philosopher But the same way Mr. H. maketh the Church confessing as Peter Mat. 16. such a formal subject and saith the fourth part of this subject women children of age c. are not capable of the Keys if it be said the organical body is the proper subject of seeing of hearing c. yet neither legs nor hands are capable of either seeing or hearing I answer Then 1. the organical body is not the first and formal subject of seeing but Arms and Legs are capable of touching but women
it destroyes the ministry faithful Apostles and Pastors calling who are sent to gather into Christ all the invisible members of Christs mystical body and to make them visible professors And whereas he sayes that this direction of Paul to Timothy was to continue to all succeeding officers to the end and that in all particular charges given to them is truth seen through a cloud 1. This direction in these Epistles was to continue to all succeeding officers Ergo the laying on of hands and ordaining watchmen and Bishops and this direction appointing Elders faithful men able to teach and the rest belonging to the Keyes must bâ— gâ—ven to officers not to the male Church 2. Here is some succession of godly Pastors to the end to all Pastors and Elders with such qualifications as a Bishop must be blameless c. 1 Tim. 2. Deacons must be such c. the direction is givâ—n to all succeeding officers to the end why not rather to the first proper subject of the Keyes to the male-Church 3. That 1 Tim. 3. 15. The house of God is the pillar and ground of truth and the body of Christ for the perfecting and edifying whereof Eph. 3. 12. Christ gave Apostles Evangelists Pastors and Doctors 10. 11. is the single particular independent Church Salvo mâ—liori judicio saith Mr. H. in his conjectural modesty is contrary to all Scripture and this is the very Church builded upon the rock against which the gates of hell shall not prevail and upon this account hearken to Mr. H. his distinction Mr. R. propounded an argument never yet answered to prove that the Church builded upon the rock cannot be the single visible congregation against Papists Socinians and our Brethren That Church is here Mat. 16. understood against which the gates of hell shall never prevail but against the visible independent congregationall the seven Churches of Asia now are fallen away Church the gates of hell hath prevailed Ans. This or that particular Church or congregation may fall away but there must be a Church universal existing in its particulars this or that Church which Christ will have while the world continues Eph. 4. 11. D. Ames medulla l. 1. c. 31. 37. Ans. To begin with what Amesius saith it s utterly impertinent The title of that Chapter is of the Mystical Church the members of which can never fall away but must be until the end of the world as the title of the next Chapter is of the instituted Church yea Amâ—sius saith this place Matth. 16. is a special promise made to those built on a Rock to the Militant Catholick Church and to real believers onely not to hypocrites Mr. H. by this teacheth the Patrons of the Apostasie of the Saints a distinction useful for their Errour So cinus saith The places which saith They are saved who are written in the Book of Life before the world was do not speak of some particular man thâ—â— or that as Mr. H. this or that single Church may fall off the Rock but some kinde of men and therefore Mr. H. renders this a comfortless doctrine which Christ makes a singular bulwark of Faith and Consolation to single persons Peter Mary who believe and are built upon the Rock that such shall never fall away but this or that congregation of some few persons though true and real believers may and do fall away This is the down-right Apostasie of believers 2. This strongly savours of the Jesuit Ruiz his Necessitas vaga though Mr. H. hate Doctrine and Way when his sharp engine sees them when a thing is necessarily to fall out in upon or about the kinde of men but not in or upon this single man as it is infallible and necessary that there be war and be peace and that there be husbandmen and be sailers but God determines and bows the heart of no single man to be a husbandman rather than a sailer he might say to be a King rather than a poor Beggar This kinde of necessity is against the providence of Gods special care as to great things as to Kingdoms Dan. 4. 32. so to all smaller things the stirring of a Sparrows wing Mat. 10. 29 30. the hair of the head the growing and withering of a gourd Ionah 4. 6. the motion of a worm eating the gourd which confused providence Suarez Cumel Ledesma forsake as shameful 3. The particular Independent congregation is either built upon the Rock unmoveably by a promise of the Gospel as no Divine can deny that the grace of perseverance if such a grace as it must be be granted for by Nature men persevere not is given by a Gospel-promise or by no promise But men persevere without any Gospel-promise as the Sea ebbes the Wind blows which yet cannot be said if a promise there be then when this particular Church falls away Now Mr. H. grants the Apostasie of this or that particular Church of Ephesus from the Rock and the prevailing of the gates of Hell against the single man or Independent Church of Ephesus for he saith the place Mat. 16. The gates of hâ—ll shall not prevail c. is to be meant of the Church Congregational existing it its universal nature in its particular Congregations then he must mean that some one single congregation of Ephesus or Sâ—… may and do fall off the Rock which is a clear Apostasie of the Saints for it cannot be said this or that single Church shall fall away so being they pray and watch For 1. That is the very thing which the Arminians and Socinians say on this place that the Church Mat. 16. 18. remaining and persevering a true Church remains unconquered by death and condemnation 2. Praying and persevering in praying and watching thereunto Ephes. 6 18. is a great part of persevering and so persevering is promised upon condition of persevering and therefore Mr. H. must betake himself to a more unthrifty shift and quit the place Mat. 16 and so gratifie Arminians and Socinians who say that it proves not the perseverance of the Saints and so must say that the building of the Church upon the Rock is the Lords continuate act of forming single societies upon the Rock Christ giving them victory over Hell So that he miscarries and â—â—lls from his intended end in keeping this or that single man or Church upon the Rock but yet obtains his principal end in keeping the universal nature of man and of an Independent Church upon the Rock A more confused providence than ever Pelagius or any devised and a singular gratifying of Jesuits and Sociniam 3. If the keeping of believers 〈◊〉 Saints upon the Rock Christ so that the gates of 〈◊〉 shall 〈◊〉 prevail to throw them off the Rock and put those that once were justified and by faith built upon the Rock Christ in a state of condemnation be referred to the Deâ—rce of God then must God have made the same general confused
excommunicate and excommunication hardens and humbles not Ergo its unlawful So the Gospel is the savour of death unto death 2 Cor. 2. 16 a Rock of stumbling 1 Pet. 2. 8. and prepared vengeance 2 Cor. 10. 6. to some Ergo it s not the Word of God Many such consequences have been drawn to make Mr. R. his way odious to the godly But I desire to contend for truth Mr. H. To the Ministery and Catholick Guides of that visible Church hath Christ committed the Keys as the first subject to the which he hath given his Word Ordinances Sacraments Ministery primarily This is Mr. R. his in terminis determinate conclusion beyond all gainsaying But to the Oecumenick Councel as the Representative of all Churches God hath not primarily given his Ministery Word Sacraments Ordinances then an Oecumenick Representive Church hath not the Keys given to it as to the first subject The Assumption onely needs proof 1. There was no such Councel for 300 years after Christ. 2. Councels consist primarily of Pastors and Elders then must Ministers be sent to feed Ministers 3. Word and Seals are not primarily attended in Councels but scanning of controversies Ans. 1. I complain of unfaithful repeating of my words The title is not of Oecumenick Councels but chap. 10. sect 10. pag. 289. Of the communion of the visible catholick Church To the Proposition I answer To the Ministery and Guides of that Catholick visible Church hath Christ committed the Keys as to the first subject unto which he hath given his Word Ordinances Sacraments Ministery primarily This neither is conclusion nor principle of mine but a same and curtailed proposition of Mr. H. My words are these cap. 10. sect 10. pag. 289. To this Church catholick visible hath the Lord given a Ministery and all his Ordinances of Word and Sacraments principally and primarily and to the Ministery and Guides of this Catholick Church visible hath the Lord committed the Keyes as to the first subject and for the visible Church catholick including also the invisible Church as for the object and end hath he given his Ordinances and the power of his Keys and the Ministery and Ordinances are not given to this or this congregation which meeteth ordinarily in one place So the Proposition which I own from these words must be this To the Church catholick visible as to the first subject primarily and as for the lâ—st end and object hath the Loâ—d given all his Ordinances Word Sacraments Ministery This is mine in terminis And this also To the Guides of this Catholick Church not of a single congregation hath the Lord committed the Keys as to the first formal subject but for the Church catholick visible and invisible as for the end and object that they may be saved But Mr. H his proposition is not mine he devised it himself and its false gainsaid by Mr. R. to wit To the Guides of that catholick visible Church hath the Lord committed the Keys as to the first subject unto which he hath given his Word Ordinances Sacraments Ministery primarily For 1. I know no Guides of any Church on earth to whom the Lord hath given the Seals primarily for God hath given the Seals primarily to his chosen people to the Guides secondarily as they are visible Saints 2. I know no Ministers of any Church to whom the Lord hath given the Ministery primarily it s a sensless saying 3. I refer it to the Reader if such a sensless proposition can be drawn from my words The Catholick visible Church is neither the subject nor first subject but the object and end for which the Keys are given to the Ministers and whole Officers of the Catholick Church visible and invisible Yea I demonstrate by many Arguments that believers are not the subject of the Keys I say indeed not the visible Church whereof Magus and Iudas are members is the prime subject but the invisible Church is in the Lords intention such a subject of all Ordinances in their saving fruits but then the first subject is all one with the object and end of God in Predestination 2. The Assumption is granted but Mr. H. his probations are naught 1. There was no General Councels the first 300 years after Christ. Ans. Mr. Simpson and other grave Divines say the Councel at Ierusalem Act. 15. is more worthy the name of an Occumenick Councel than the Councels of Nice of Constantinople of Ephesus of Chalcedon 2. Such a Councel is not the first subject of the Keys but onely of the Synodical Keys in such a General Councel of the Keys Catholick dispensed 3. The Apostles the Representative of all the Guides of the Church may well stand for a formal Councel Occumenick 4. The long want of General Councels through providential impediments can no more prove them to be no Ordinances of God jurâ— which ought to be than if one should say Circumcision and the Passover and Sacrifices and an Ephod are no Ordinances of God For it is thought by the learned on Hos. 3 4. Israel was without a King Sacrifice Image Teraphim Ephod from the sixth year of the Reign of Hezekiah when Salmanasser carried away the ten Tribes until Christ was crowned King to wit six hundred and seventy five years See the English Divines Diodati Iunius Pareus Zanchins on the place By this it shall follow that Circumcision the Sacrifices Ephod then are no Ordinances of God for if they were say the Dissenting Brethren institutions are suitable to providenoes When ye go up to Ierusalem no man shall desire your land Then if a General Councel were an Ordinance of Christ the Lord should suit his providence to a peaceable meeting of the Churches in a General Councel But so from the sixth year of the Reign of Hezekiah in Israel Sacrifices Priests Ephods the Kingly power shall be no Ordinances of God for even till Christ these were not in Israel and by this profession of the Gospel and congregational Churches were not at all And should not the Lord have framed the like providence that professors of Christ meet in day-light in congregational assemblies For as the Lord made a special typical promise when the males go up thrice a year to Ierusalem to worship the Nations were not permitted of God to desire their land So must the like promise of providence suiting with the profession of Christ be in the New Testament the Heathen Emperours shall not desire your lives Now the plain contrary providence is foretold by our Saviour Mat. 10. 17 to 25. Luke 21. 12 to 18. Ioh. 16. 1 2. and the Lord must by this fail against his Ordinance of professing Christ before men When in the persecution of Flavius Domitian an 96. of Trajan an 108 so many Martyrs were killed as Eusebius saith and Plinius 11. the Deputy was smitten in conscience with their number and patience So multitudes suffered under Antonius Pius and in the time of Dâ—cius an 250. there was no
this flocks choice gave him causatively right and being not simply to be a Pastor ordination of the Elders Act. 6. 6. 2 Tim. 2. 2. 1 Tim. 5. 22 c. did that but to be this flocks fixed Pastor for we must distinguish betwixt a Pastor and this peoples Pastor a Pastor actu primo and a fixed Pastor in the second acts and exercise of his calling hic nunc to this people as touching their formales rationes if our Brethren will give us leave if not we value not Scripture and good Logick are for us 3. Mr. Ball and Mr. R. say not in several places yes no where that the people may preach and baptize if they give causatively being to Pastor and Teacher but the people may then do and perform as high acts official and juridical To the impertinent instance of Aldermen and Major I have answered 4. It is but â—nsis and gladius that is in the reply for the peoples delivering up themselves by voluntary subjection to be ruled by him gives him no more being and right to be a Pastor but only right to be their Pastor which is accidental to their calling then the sick mans voluntary subjection of and delivering up of his body and health under the Lord and Creator of life to Thomas a skilled Physician to follow all his medicinal injunctions gives causatively being to Thomas to be Physician whereas he was a Physician many years before Mr. H. Ordination is not an act of supreme Iurisdiction but of order rather It gives not being nor constitution to an officer but is rather the admission and confirmation of him in his office Ans. That is said not proved if it be an act of order and commanded of God aâ— where the regulating of a thing that it be not done 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rashly is commanded there the thing it self is commanded 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Tim. 2. 2. Then your ordinatihn by the sole male Church void of all officers and calling of officers without officers a thing without example in the Scripture except where God calls immediatly wants an act of order commanded of God and that in an ordinary way for your way is in ordinary the Church is before the officers and gives being to the officers 2. If ordination be but an approbation of the officers who have already being and not necessary that ordination should be where there is election of people then it shall be strange that there were officers at all the calling of officers we read of in the New Testament who yet need not be there but are ex superabundanti present as Act. 1. Act. 6. Act. 13. 1 2 3. Act. 14. 23. 1 Tim. 4. 14 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Tim. 2. 2. Tit. 1. 5. 1 Tim. 3. 10 c. and no where is there vola vel vestigium of a command or promise to the Church destitute of officers to call and give being to officers nor any practice of the Apostles for it And I am so far from owning such a Logick as Mr. H. puts upon me The Church have not received power of excommunicating all their officers Ergo they have not received that power aâ— neither thing nor words are in my mind or book But I provoke all the Brethren for a warrant or shadow of a warrant by precept by promise by practice in Scripture for a Church void of officers that hath power to call and give being to officers or admit in or cast out members or perform any Church worship 3. Let it be considered if Christ have given any jurisdiction at all it must be in calling and in giving being to the officers of Christs visible Kingdom but the specifick acts of giving being to the officers are to set men over the work Act. 6. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to separate and set apart for the calling Act. 13. 2. to prove 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 before they be put in the Ministry whether they have the requisite qualifications or not 1 Tim. 3. 10. to lay hands on men for the office cautelously 1 Tim. 5. 2â— to commit the charge to faithful men able to teach others 2 Tim. 2. 2. Tit. 1. 5. are ascribed to Elders to Prophets to Pastors Shew me the like ascribed to your Church wanting officers Mr. R. his comparisons of an Embassador c. must stand then till you answer these often proposed Arguments It is weak that Mr. H. that the Elders of Ephesus was congregational Mr. H. answers not my Arguments on the contrary nor toucheth them 2. It s most weak to say Dath Paul exhort the Elders when they are assembled in the Classis to watch against ravâ—ning Wolves or did they not this in their special charges As if a Judicature of civil Watchmen a Colledge of Physicians were not both alone and in their respective Assemblies to watch over the City and the sick Mr. H. When Churches were complâ—ted with all officers that then ordination was acted by a Colledge of Pastors there is nothing in the Text saith any such thing Ans. The homogeneal Church yet wanting officers saith Mr. H. is complete to create and call its officers and aâ— Independent in an Island without officers and hath that power and no word of precept or promise or any such practice for such a Church creating their officers Paul should have bid them use their power of ordaining as the twelve Apostles Act. 6. hids them use their power of chusing And Paul should not have charged Timothy to usurp ordaining of officers where there was a Church in an orderly way being the first formal subject of the Keyes to do it And Mr. R. gives instances where the Elders are commanded to ordain and lay on hands and sayes this command or practice is not to be found in the Word in the hands of the people My fourth Argument stands because every twelve in a family is an homogeneous Church True saith Mr. H. but they watch one over another by family rules Ans. That is a begging of the question for a family combination hath all the essentials of a Church combination if the Church be taken for an homogeneal association and wanteth only the name for they cannot watch over one another as touching seals and no more can any homogeneous Church of divers families so watch over one another CHAP. VIII Whether Covenant-right to Baptisme be derived from the nearest Parents only or from the remoter the Grand-Fathers MR. H. It belongs not to any â—…d â—â—ssors either nearer or further off removed it is from the next Parents 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and firstly to give Covenant right of Baptisme to their Child 〈◊〉 when I say Predâ—â—â—ssors near eâ—…r further off I include and comprohend all beside the next parent Now covenant right agrees not to all other foâ— them nor can the Pâ—… 〈◊〉 this 〈◊〉 out the next parent in Church covenant who is the adequateâ—â—â—sâ— of deriving these
pertinent Lutherus in loc quia habet pius populus propitium Deum condonabuntur ejus peccata So the Donatists Augustin contra Epist. Parme. l. 11. c. 3. manua nim vestrae sanguine coinquinatae sunt â—…mo loquitur juâ—â—a c Respo Austin Quos isto loco Scriptura describit ubicunque fuorint inter bonos non obsunt bonâ— sic ut non obest palca frumentis c. Sec Augustin de unitat Eccles. M. H. his contradiction of visible Saints membere and non-visible Saints members is naught 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 l. 1. Aristot. de reprehens Sophist 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Church passeth no judgement upon Magus when he is a member admitted and baptized that either he is a reall chosen or a reall convâ—… 〈◊〉 reall non-chosen or a reall non convert but their judgement abstracteth from both The same in an other dresse the Donatists object to Augustin contra Epist. Parmenian l. c. 2. 9. objiciunt ut quid exponis justificationes meas c. It s a naughty consequence hypocrites are sinfully unfit to be members without the Churches knowledge ergo the Church sinnes in admitting of them M. H. must make all Israel savoury professors and reall converts in the judgement one of another before ever the Lord of free grace called them to be his people M. Can necessity of Separat Sect. 3. 176 177. an 1642. objected the same and M. H. does but an 1648. repeat the same and M. Ball answers it pag. 30. 71. The wicked are forbidden to meddle with the covenant of God does David say they are fobidden onely at their first admission to be members to bâ—eak the third commandement in taking the covenant in their mouth while as they are wicked and if so Iezabel continuing a member is not forbidden to meddle wâ—th the covenant yea the scandalous mâ—mbers which as M. H. must be tolerated for a time aâ—e fit members and may take the covenant in their mouth How ehe preaching of the Gospel is a note of the visible Church and how not There may be a Church and Church-members before there be any Seals An hearing and Church-profession may be in persons and societies before they be baptized The visible Church is a society dayly more and more inchurched Our brethren and the Sociâ—iâ—â—â— give us a very uncertain way of knowing the Church Remonst in apolog c. 22 doctrinae praedicatio est anterius quid Ecclesiâ quid absurdius Erge id quod aliquando prius est ecclesiâ eâdem posterius erit nota enim notate suo posterior est Idciâ—…ò quiâ— p aedicatiâ— est aliquande instrumeâ—…um ecclesiae colligâ—… non poâ—…sse certâ— atque infell thiâ—â—s nota eâ—… ollâ—… vide fol 241. 2â—2 Socinianus Voshelius de vera religione lib. 6. c. 16. primò igitur ad salutem consequendam simpliciter necessarium esse non videtur ubi Christâ— Ecclesia sit perquirere Minimè consequens est ut quia Christus ecclesiam adire audire jubet â—deirco ubi existat ea inquirendum nobis omnino sitz loquitur iis qui jam ecclesiam agnoverunt Ait ibidem ad salutem aeternam nihil aliud requiri quam sidem peâ— sidem in Deo per Christum collatam cujus spiritus atque animaest obedientia How excommunicated persons are members of the Church how not The place 2 Thess. 3. 14. mistaken by M. R. and our brethren How preaching many years to infidels is a note of the Church how not What sort of preaching of the word is a note of the visible Church What is to be thought of a lecturer that preacheth constantly to many of diverse congregations See for these lecturers in prelaticall times M. Can his il-grounded challenge of lecturers Necess of Separat pag. 49. 50. and learned M. Buls answer to M. Can c. 5. Sect. 1. pag. 84 85 86. That setled preaching is a note of the visible Church Though scandalous men as adulterers ought to be cast out yet M. H. loosly inferres ergo they had never right to be admitted members M R yields not the cause because he gives two answers to the same argument one to the rigid Separatists another to our brethren False matter makes a Church to be no Church by our brethrens way M. Can. Necess of Separ Sect. 3. pag. 176. 177. that which destroyes a Church and maketh it either become a false Church or no Church at all cannot be a true Church nor true member of the Church Way of the Churches of New England chap. 3. sect 3. pag. 56 17 58. printed London ann 1645. M. H. his conjecture of visible Saints The argument such as were the members of the Church of Rome Corinth such should the members of our Church visible be scanned and foundfaulty M H contradicteth the book of discipline of new England Hookers survey par 1. c. 2. The places cited by our brethren for visible membership prove that they were read converts and predestinate to glory who are right members visible Christ dealt not with Iudas in a Church-way it is a dream void of the word This visible Saintship destroves the faith hope joy thanksgiving of Saints chap. 3. Sect. 3. 1 Cor. 3. 16. the place much mistaken Concili Teldent sess 6. c. 6. Bellarmi Gregori de vâ—â—â— Our brethren argue from a grown up Church to an unplanted Church this is a high tall-tree ergo it was an high tall-tree when it was first planted Way of the Churches of N. England ch 1. sect 1. By our brethrens way there must be sons and a fed flock before there be fathers and shepherds to feed them By our Brethrens way none are converted by a visible ministerie and by pastors and teachers 5 Cor. 3. 15. By M. H. his way no pastor as a pastor hath any command of Christ to intend to convert his â—…k or any â—ember thereof M. H leaveth out that word wherein the strength of M. R argument stands and utterly mistakes him There must be two contrary intentions in God by our Brethrens way M. Hooker ibid. 2. Inference See Answer to 32 questions answer to sect 9. q. 10. q. 1. q. 2 See M Baylie vindicat of disswasive an 1655. pag. 1. c. 16. pag. 38. 39. Answer to 32. Quest. sect 1. pag. 7. 8. 9. pag. 25. 26. 27. ans to q. 10. p. 29. Both Mr Hooâ—â—r and M Robinson and the Sepaparatists teach that there can be none members of the visible Church but onely real converts and such as are chosen to life and so contradict themselves and this is no calumny which M. H. chargeth on them So M. Robinson whom M. H. desends justification of separation against Mr. R. Rernard propos 3. pag. 112. So hath every true visible Church of Christ direct and immediate interest in Christ and title to Christ himself and the whole Nâ—w Testament See pag. 113 114 115. Ans. Why saith he not the true visible Church hath direct and immediate interest in Christ c. in