the shew of wordes UUherefore it was néedfull sith we séeke herein to finde out Christes will that first we agreed what way the right sense of the scripture may be knowne UUhich séeing you would haue me to fetch from the Pope and I haue no lust to go vnto Rome nor thinke it lodgeth in the Vatican so that by this way no agréement can be made or ende of controuersie hoped for I will take a shorter and a surer way confessed by vs both to be a good way whereby the right sense of the scripture may be found and so the will of Christ be knowne Hart. UUhat way may that be Rainoldes To learne of Christ him selfe the meaning of his word and let his spirit teach it that is to expound the scripture by the scripture A golden rule to know and try the truth from errour prescribed by the Lord and practised by his seruants for the building of his church from age to age through all posteritie For the holie Ghost exhorting the Iewes to compare the darker light of the Prophetes with the cléerer of the Apostles that the day-brigtnesse of the Sonne of righteousnes may shine in their hartes saith that no prophecy of Scripture is of a mans owne interpretation because in the prophecie that is the scripture of the Prophetes they spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost not as the will of man did fansie UUhich reason sith it implieth as the Prophetes so the Apostles and it is true in them all the holie men of God spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost it followeth that all the scripture ought to be expounded by God because it is inspired of God as natures light hath taught that he who made the law should interpret the law This rule commended to vs by the prescript of God and as it were sanctified by the Leuites practise in the olde Testament and the Apostles in the new the godlie auncient Pastors and Doctors of the church haue followed in their preaching their writing their deciding of controuersies in Councels UUherefore if you desire in déede the churches exposition and would so faine finde it you must go this way this is the churches way that is the churches sense to which this way dooth bring you For S. Austin whose doctrine your selfe doo acknowledge to be grounded on the lawes the maners the iudgementes of all the catholike church whom you call a witnesse of the sincere truth and catholike religion such a witnesse as no exception can be made against who assureth you as you say not onely of his owne but also of the common the constant faith and confession of the ancient Fathers and the Apostolike church this S. Austin hath written foure bookes of Christian doctrine wherein he purposely entreateth how men should vnderstand the Scripture and expound it The summe of all his treatise doth aime at this marke which I haue pointed too that the meaning of the Scripture must be learned out of the Scripture by the consideration of thinges and wordes in it that the ende whereto the matter whereof it is all writen be marked in generall and all be vnderstood according to that end and matter that al be read ouer ouer those things chiefly noted which are set downe plainly both precepts of life and rules of beliefe because that all things which concerne beliefe and life are plainly written in it that obscure darke speeches be lightned and opened by the plaine and manifest that to remoue the doubt of vncertaine sentences the cleere and certaine be followed that recourse be had vnto the Greeke and Hebrue copies to cleare out of the fountaines if the translation be muddie that doubtfull places bee expounded by the rule of faith which we are taught out of the plainer places of the scripture that all the circumstances of the text bee weighed what goeth before what commeth after the maner how the cause why the men to whom the time when euery thing is saide to be short that still wee seeke to know the will and meaning of the Authour by whom the holie Ghost hath spoken if we finde it not yet giue such a sense as agreeth with the right faith approued by some other place of scripture if a sense be giuen the vncertaintie wherof cannot bee discussed by certaine and sure testimonies of scripture it might be proued by reason but this custome is dangerous the safer way far is to walke by the scripture the which being shadowed with darke and borowed words when we mind to search let either that come out of it which hath no doubt and controuersie or if it haue doubt let it be determined by the same scripture through witnesses to be found vsed thence wheresoeuer that so to conclude all places of the scriptures be expounded by the scriptures the which are called Canonical as being the Canon that is to say the rule of godlines and faith Thus you sée the way the way of wisedome and knowledge which Christ hath prescribed the church hath receiued S. Austin hath declared both by his preceptes and his practise both in this treatise and in others agréeably to the iudgement of the auncient Fathers Which way sith it is lyked both by vs and you though not so much followed of you as of vs I wish that the woorthinesse thereof might perswade you to practise it your selfe but it must enforce you at least to allow it Hart. I graunt it neither can nor ought to be denyed that euery one of those things and specially if they be ioined all togither doo helpe very much to vnderstand the scriptures rightly But yet they are not so sure and certaine meanes as some other are which we preferre before them Neither do they helpe alwaies nay sometimes they do hurt rather and deceiue greatlie such as expound the Scripture after them This is not onelye said but also proued at large out of the Doctors and Fathers by that worthie man of great wit and iudgement our countriman M. Stapleton Doctor of Diuinitie the Kinges Professor of controuersies in the vniuersitie of Doway Of whose most wholesome worke entitled A methodicall demonstration of doctrinall principles of the faith one booke is wholly spent to shew the meanes way and order how to make authenticall interpretation of the Scriptures In the which hee layeth this for a ground that the Scripture cannot be rightly vnderstood but by the rule of faith Whereupon he condemneth the Protestantes opinion that the sense of Scriptures must be fetched out of the Scriptures Which errour of yours to ouerthrow the more fully he deliuereth foure meanes of expounding the Scriptures the first very certaine and sure the rule of faith the next no lesse certaine the practise of the church the third at least probable the consent of the Fathers the last most
and theirs hee would take their sonnes and appoint them to waite vpon him to bee his horsmen footemen captaines to eare his land to reape his haruest to make him instruments of warre instruments to serue his charets he would take their daughters to dresse him sweete ointments and be his cookes and bakers hee would take their fieldes and vineyardes and oliue trees the best giue them to his seruants yea the tenth of their seede and of their vineyardes giue it to his courtiers and to his seruants he would take their men their maydes their youth their cattel put them to his worke he would take the tenth of their flockes and to conclude they should be his seruants euen so when the Pope had gotten the kingdome that is the supremacie ouer the Israelites of God that is Christians he tooke their sonnes daughters nay their fathers and mothers who should beget them in the gospell and féede them with the milke of life and appointed them to serue him to be his Chauncellors Treasurers Secretaries Maisters of requestes Clerkes of the Escheker Legates in peace to goe on embassages in warre to looke vnto his armies he tooke their bishoprickes and benefices and prebendes the best and gaue them to his seruants yea the first fruites and tithes of their liuings and gaue them to his Courtiers and to his seruants he tooke their pastours their doctours their elders their deacons and put them to his worke hee tooke the tithe of their Churches nay their whole Churches and to conclude both they and theirs were made to serue him If you M. Hart who haue béene at Rome and séene the Popes person haue not yet perceiued this policie of the Pope your want of experience or rather your education in a Popish Seminarie where other kinde of bookes are giuen you to reade then as bewray such mysteries may beare the fault of it But there are two Italians of your owne profession Franciscus Sansouinus and Onuphrius the Frier of whom the one hath writen a treatise of the gouernment of the Court of Rome the other sundry bookes of the Popes and Cardinals By them you may learne it For Onuphrius sheweth that there are three sortes of the Church-officers which are named Cardinals the first Bishops the second Priestes and the last Deacons Priestes and Deacons of the parishes that are within Rome Bishops of the cities that lie néere about it When Rome had receiued the Christian faith and the Church encreased there from day to day the faithfull were diuided into sundry parishes for their better gouernment and had Elders and Deacons ordeined to attend them Elders or as you terme them Priestes and I will cal them so because I speake of Cardinals knowne by that title were they to whom the charge of ministring the word and sacracraments Deacons to whom the care for the poore of the church and their prouision was committed Now at first the parishes had each but one Priest while they being small one pastor could discharge the duetie But after when the number of the faithfull grewe each of them had more And hence did the name of Cardinals arise that he who was chiefe amongst the Priestes of one parish was called the Cardinall Priest that is to say principall In like sort when the seuerall wardes of the citie could not be serued by seuerall Deacons but each of them had moe the chiefe amongst the Deacons of the same ward was called the Cardinall Deacon The name being worshipfull amongst Priestes and Deacons of the citie of Rome spread to the Bishops that dwelt néere about and they were called Cardinall Bishops though it were long first For amongst the auncients it was neuer heard of neither might with reason fith they being equall in power to other Bishops cannot be called Cardinall in respect of them Yet in time by custome I know not how they got it Wherefore of the Cardinals of Rome six are Bishops the Bishop of Alba Tusculum Praeneste Sabine Portuese and Ostia the rest whose number in olde time was certaine according to the number of parishes and wardes now they are more or fewer as the Pope will they were three score and three when this was writen by Onuphrius but all the rest are Priestes or Deacons And for almost twelue hundred yeares after Christ although the Pope employed them much in his affaires yet ordinarily they liued on their charge and kept their calling and degree The honour power of Cardinall Bishops was as the Bishops of other cities The Cardinal Priests and Deacons were neither Bishops themselues nor equall vnto them in dignitie And if a Cardinall Priest were chosen as worthy of a greater charge to be a Bishop els where he left his place in Rome and ceased to be Cardinall because it is ordered by the auncient rules of ecclesiasticall discipline that one man may haue but one ecclesiasticall charge and therefore no man might be a Cardinall Priest of Rome and Bishop of an other Church But after that the Pope had trodde the Emperour vnder féete lifted vp his own throne aboue the highest thrones on earth he lifted vp withall the maiestâ—ie of the Cardinals as of his Noble men and Counsellours and vsed them as principall pillars of his state He gaue to them alone the right of choosing the Pope the people Prince and clergie being robbed of it He decked them with honour of wearing redd hattes and going first before Bishops afterward before Arch-bishops and at the last before Patriarkes He chose the greatest Prelates of sundry dioceses and prouinces as of Yorke for example and Canterburie in England Rhemes and Roan in France Toledo in Spaine Lisbon in Portugall Milan Rauenna Venice in Italie in Germanie Coolcin Trier and Mens in Boheme Praga Cracouia in Poleland Strigonium in Hungarie and so forth the chiefest Bishops of all Christendome to be his Cardinall Priestes and Deacons Yea they were glad to be so because the Cardinalship was a degree vnto the Popedome Neither did he accustome them to giue ouer their Bishoply charge that others placed in their roomes might supplie that duetie and they might attend their charge of Cardinall Priestship and Deaconship in Rome but for the better maintenance of their owne porte and strengthning of the Popedome he suffered them to keépe the liuings of their Bishoprickes and Cardinalships both Wherein least he might séeme to breake that rule of discipline one man to haue but one charge he tooke order that they should not be called Bishops though they had Bishoprickes How then Forsooth a Bishop if he were made Cardinall Deacon must be called elect Bishop if he were made Cardinall Priest must be called perpetuall administrator of his Bishopricke As namely Thomas Wolsey Archbishop of Yorke when he was made Cardinall parish-priest of Rome he must be called not Archbishop but Cardinall Woolsey Priest
name that is solitarie and not collegiate moonkes But the beléeuers at Ierusalem were at Ierusalem in a citie and liued in fellowship together Doo you not sée that the Apostles and Apostolike men were not such as afterwarde the moonkes whom Ierom meaneth and therefore Ierom was deceiued Hart. I will not beléeue on your worde that so worthie a Father was deceiued Rainoldes If you will not on my worde I will bring his owne worde to make you beléeue it For writing to Paulinus touching the training vp of moonkes he saith that the Apostles and Apostolike men are not paterns for them to folow but S. Antonie and others who dwelt in fieldes and deserts Hart. He saith that the Apostles and Apostolike men are set for an example to Priestes and Bishops not to moonkes True in some respectes And yet me thinkes too But what if the Fathers perhaps might be deceiued so through ouersight Rainoldes If they might be deceiued so through ouersight they might be deceiued through affection also For they were men and subiect to it As Cyprian through too much hatred of heretikes condemned the baptisme of heretikes as vnlawfull wherein a Councell erred with him As Origen through too much compassion of the wicked thought that the diuels them â—elues should be saued at length As Tertullian through spite of the Roman clergie reuolted to the Montanists and called the Catholikes carnall men because they were not so precise as the Montanists in pointes of mariage and fasting Hart. We condemne these errours in them as well as you and doo therein except against them Rainoldes You doo except also I trow I am sure your Doctors doo against Damascene for his tale of Gregorie the Pope and Traian the Emperour that Gregorie while he went ouer the market place of Traian did pray for Traians soule to God and behold a voyce from heauen I haue heard thy prayer and I pardon Traian but see that thou pray no more to me for the wicked A verie great affection to prayers for the dead that moued Damascene to write this For it is against the doctrine of the Schoolemen that prayers may helpe out the soules that are in hell In Purgatorie they say they may Hart. S. Thomas doth confirme the same Yet he beléeueth that of Damascene But he saith that Gregorie did it by speciall priuilege which doth not breake the common law Rainoldes But your Canus saith that Thomas was a young man then beside that he was greatly affected to Damascen And Damascen might easily perswade a well willer he doth affirme so lustily that all the east and west is witnesse that the thing is true Which report of his yet Canus doth maruell at sith it is vnknowne in all the Latin story But Canus as a man of better minde and sounder iudgement then your Popish Doctors are the most of them did wisely sée noteth fréely that not onely later and lesse discreete autours as he who made the golden legend but also graue ancient learned holy Fathers haue ouershot them selues in writing miracles of Saintes partly while they fetched the truth where it is seldom from common rumors and reportes partly while they sought to please the peoples humor and thought it lawfull for historians to write thinges as true which coÌ„monly are counted true Of this sorte he nameth Gregorie and Bede the one for his Dialogues the other for his English story He might haue named Damascene with them Unlesse hee meant him rather perhaps to be of that sorte which did not onely take by heare-say of others but coyned lyes themselues too wrote those thinges of Saintes which their fansie liked though neither true nor likely As that S. Frauncis was wont to take lise that were shaken off and put them on himselfe it was a lowsie tricke and S. Frauncis did it not but the writer thought it an argument of his holinesse Likewise that when the diuel troubled S. Dominike S. Dominike constrained him to hold a candle in his handes till the candle being spent did put him to great grief in burning his fingers Such examples there are innumerable but these two may giue a taste of their affection who haue defiled the stories of Saintes with filthie fables Yet out of such stories many thinges are read in your Church-seruice And Canus although he confesse it as euident notwithstanding which is straunge he thinketh them vnwise Bishops who seeke to reforme it For while they cure the nailesore saith he they hurt the head that is in steede of counterfeites they bring in graue stories but they chaunge the seruice of the Church so farre that scarce any shew of the olde religion is remaining in it A thing well considered of them by whom your Roman Portesse was reformed For though they haue remoued some of those stories which Canus saith are vncertaine forged friuolous and false yet haue they doon it sparingly If they should haue left out all those legend-toyes their Portesse had beene like our booke of common prayer which heretikes would haue laught at and there had remained no shew in a maner of the olde religion saue that their seruice is in Latin Hart. These thinges are impertinent but that it pleaseth you to play the Hicke-scorner with the holy Portesse For what need you mention the writer of S. Francis life or S. Dominikes or the golden legend that old moth-eaten booke as D. Harding calleth it of the liues of Saintes I mind not to presse you with thinges of later writers but of olde and ancient whom Canus iudgeth better of then of the younger For he saith of Vincentius Beluacensis and Antoninus that they cared not so much to write thinges true and certaine as to let go nothing that they found writeÌ„ in any papers whatsoeuer But of Bede and Gregorie he iudgeth more softly and rather excuseth them then reproueth them Though iudge he how he listed he was but one Doctour and other learned men perhaps mislike his iudgement both for younger and elder writers Rainoldes They who deale with taming of lyons I haue read are wont when they finde them somewhat out of order to beate dogges before them that in a dogge the lyon may see his owne desert Euen so when I rebuke the writer of S. Francis life or of S. Dominikes or of the moth-eaten booke as you call it though he who wrote it was an Archbishop in his time a man of name and his booke a legend read publikely in Churches and called golden for the excellencie but when I rebuke that moth-eaten writer or Antoninus if you will and Vincentius Beluacensis who are as good as he welnigh you must not thinke I doo it for the dogges sake but for the lions rather I meane the ancient writers who deserue rebuke too For as not Rupertus
same fauour if I would admit it VVhich I grounding my selfe vpon the most certayne foundation of the Church so strengthened by God that it shall stand for euer did gladly yeeld to and as became me accepted of it with all dutie VVherevpon his Honour sent for M. Rainoldes to conferre with me taking order also that I should be furnished with whatsoeuer bookes I did neede thereto But after we had spent certayne weekes together in conference by word of mouth and I continued still in my former mind he desired to haue the summe thereof in writing that he might see the groundes on which I stood And to this intent we set downe together breefe notes of the points that we dealt in I shewing my reasons with the places of the autours whose iudgement and learning I rather trusted too then to my owne skill and M. Rainoldes answering them in such sort as he thought good Howbeit those notes being so short as pointing to thinges rather then vnfolding them that they could not well bee vnderstood by any but our selues onely vnlesse they were drawne more largely and at full my selfe being troubled then with more necessary cogitations of death as altogether vncertaine when I might be called to yeeld vp mine account before God and man requested M. Rainoldes to take paines to penne them according to our notes thereof Promising him that I would peruse it when he had doon it and allow of it if it were to my mind or otherwise correct if I misliked ought in it This paines he vndertooke and sending me the partes thereof from time to time as he finished them I noted such thinges as I would haue added or altered therein and he performed it accordingly But when I perceiued that it was prepared to be set foorth in print I sought meanes to stay it all that I could for some considerations which seemed to me very great and important Marry since that againe vnderstaÌ„ding it to be his Honours pleasure that it should go forward wherevnto he granted me also by speciall warrant the vse of such bookes as I should call for to helpe my selfe withall I set afresh vpon it by letters written vnto M. Rainoldes receiued from him I had mine owne speeches reasons perfitted as I would VVherefore I acknowledge that he hath set downe herein a true report of those things which past in conference betweene vs according to the grounds and places of the autours which I had quoted referred my self too As for that which he affirmeth in one place that I haue told him that my opinion is the Pope may not depose Princes in deede I told him so much And in truth I thinke that although the spiritual power be more excelleÌ„t worthie theÌ„ the temporall yet they are both of God neither doth the one depend of the other VVherevpon I gather as a certaine conclusion that the opinion of them who holde the Pope to be a temporall Lord ouer Kings Princes is vnreasonable and vnprobable altogether For he hath not to meddle with theÌ„ or theirs ciuilly much lesse to depose them or giue away their kingdomes that is no part of his commission He hath in my iudgment the Fatherhoode of the Church not a Princehood of the world Christ himself taking no such title vpon him nor giuing it to Peter or any other of his disciples And that is it which I meant to defend in him and no other soueraintie Humbly desiring pardon of her Maiestie my gratious soueraine Lady for my plaine dealing in that which so Christ helpe me I take to be Gods cause and the Churches only As I do also most willingly submit my selfe to the curteous correction of all men who through greater skill and perfitter iudgement see more then I doe in the depth of these matters whereof I haue conferred Farewell gentle Reader and now that I haue shewed thee my dealing herein let me obtaine this little request at thy handes that thou be not too hasty in giuing thy iudgemeÌ„t before thou hast weighed all things sincerely and vprightly From the Tower the seuenth of Iuly Iohn Rainoldes to the Students of the English Seminaries at Rome and Rhemes BRethren my harts desire prayer vnto God for Israel is that they may bee saued For that which S. Paule wrote to the Romans touching the Israelites his brethren and kinsmen according to the flesh as being of one nation with him that must I protest to you brethren your selues my kinsemen according to the flesh in like sort and countriemen of England Of whom I haue the greater compassion and pitie because I am perswaded that you sinne of ignorance rather then of wilfulnesse and haue a deuotion to serue God aright though not the right way wherein he will be serued That I may iustly say the same vnto you which S. Paule of theÌ„ For I beare you record that you haue the zeale of God but not according to knowledge The zeale which the Israelites had was of the law The knowledge which they waÌ„ted was the true meaning of it For they expounded it after the traditions and doctrines of their Fathers and knowing not Christ to be the ende thereof they sought their owne righteousnesse against the righteousnesse of God The zeale which you haue is of the Gospel The knowledge which you want is the true meaning of it too For you are instructed to vnderstand it after the maner of your Fathers Whereby your seducer beareth you in hand that the Pope is supreme head of the Church the trade of Popish Priesthoode the way to saue soules the sacrifice of Popish Masse the souerain sacrifice in a word that Papistrie is the Catholike faith and the faith and seruice of the Church of England is cursed and damnable specially the oth of the Queenes supremacie And your mindes are taken so with these opinions that you are content to venture as farre in the defense of them as the Donatists did who loued their errours better then their liues Great zeale but not according to knowledge my brethren For the Gospell teacheth not that which you imagin your Fathers were abused by Phariseis Rabbines your Pope hath vsâ—rped ouer all Christian states your Priesthoode is impious your Masse abominatioÌ„ your Popish faith heresie our doctrine of the Queenes supremacie oth thereto our ministerie of the word of sacraments of prayers agreeth with the Gospell and therefore is holy Which thinges sith this Conference that one of your Seminarie-Priests and I haue had doth open proue peruse it â— beseech you with equitie and iudgement and studie to ioine knowledge to your zeale that you may be saued Perhaps your Superiors the guides who seduce you will not giue you leaue to reade it and peruse it But there are two reasoÌ„s which should moue them to coÌ„descend thereto the one of the worke the other of the autours The worke is a conference
you complaine I know you may haue more bookes if you would haue such as are best for you to read But you would haue such as might nourish your humor from reading of the which they who restraine you are your friendes If a man do surfet of varietie of dishes the Phisicion doth well to dyet him with one wholsome kinde of meat Perhaps it were better for some of vs who read all sortes that we were tyed to that alone suffred part of your restraint We are troubled about many things but one thing is needfull Many please the fansie better but one doth profit more the minde He was a wise preacher who said The reading of many bookes is a wearinesse vnto the flesh and therefore exhorted men to take instruction by the wordes of trueth the wordes of the wise which are giuen by one pastor euen by Iesus Christ whose spirit did speake in the Prophets and Apostles and taught his Church the trueth by them Howbeit for as much as God hath giuen giftes to men pastours and teachers whose labour might helpe vs to vnderstand the words of that one pastor we do receaue thankfully the monuments of their labour left in wryting to the Church which they were set to builde eyther seuerall as the Doctors or assembled as the Councels we do gladly read them as Pastors of the Church Yet so that we put a difference betwene them and that one Pastor For God did giue him the spirite not by measure the rest had a measure of grace and knowledge through him Wherfore if to supply your whatsoeuer wants you would haue the bookes of Doctors and Councels to vse them as helps for the better vnderstanding of the booke of Christ your wants shal be supplyed you shall not need to feare disaduantage in this respect For M. Secretarie hath taken order that you shall haue what bookes you will vnlesse you will such as cannot be gotten Hart. The bookes that I would haue are principally in déed the Fathers and the Councels which all do make for vs as do the scriptures also But for my direction to finde out their places in all poyntes of controuersie which I can neither remember redily nor dare to trust my selfe in them I would haue our writers which in the seuerall poyntes whereof they treate haue cited them and buyld themselues vpon them In the question of the Church and the supremacie Doctor Stapleton of the Sacraments and sacrifice of the Masse Doctor Allen of the worshipping of Sayntes and Images Doctor Harpsfield whose bookes were set forth by Alan Cope beare his name as certaine letters in them shew Likewise for the rest of the pointes that lie in controuersie them who in particular haue best written of them for them al in generall S. Thomas of Aquine Father Roberts Dictates and chiefly the confession that Torrensis an other father of the societie of Iesus hath gathered out of S. Augustine which booke we set the more by because of al the Fathers S. Augustine is the chéefest as well in our as your iudgement and his doctrine is the common doctrine of the Fathers whose consent is the rule whereby controuersies should be ended Rainoldes These you shall haue God willing and if you will Canisius too because he is so full of textes of Scriptures and Fathers and many doe estéeme him highly But this I must request you to looke on the originalles of Scriptures Councels Fathers which they doe alleadge For they doe perswade you that all doe make for you but they abuse you in it They borrow some gold out of the Lordes treasure house and wine out of the Doctors presses but they are deceitful workmen they do corrupt their golde with drosse their wine with worse then water Hart. You shall finde it harder to conuince them of it then to charge them with it Rainoldes And you shall finde it harder to make proofe of halfe then to make claime of all Yet you shall see both youre claime of all the Scriptures and Fathers to bee more confidente then iust and my reproofe of your wryters for theyr corrupting and forging of them as plainly prooued as vttered if you haue eyes to see God lighten your eyes that you may see open your eares that you may heare and geue you both a softe hart and vnderstanding minde that you may be able wisely to discerne and gladly to embrace the trueth when you shall heare it Hart. I trust I shall be able alwayes both to see and to followe the trueth But I am perswaded you will be neuer able to shew that that is the trueth which your Church professeth As by our conference I hope it shal be manifest Rainoldes UUill you then to lay the ground of our conference let me know the causes why you separate your selfe and refuse to communicate with the Church of England in prayers and religion Hart. The causes are not many They may be al comprysed in one Your Church is no Church You are not members of the Church Rainoldes How proue you that Hart. By this argument The Church is a companie of Christian men professing one faith vnder one head You professe not one faith vnder one head Therefore you are not of the Church Rainoldes What is that one faith Hart. The catholike faith Rainoldes Who is that one head Hart. The Bishop of Rome Rainoldes Then both the propositions of which you frame your argument are in part faultie The first in that you say the church is a companie of Christian men vnder one head The second in that you charge vs of the church of England that wee professe not one faith For we do professe that one faith the catholike faith But we deny that the church is bound to be subiect to that one head the bishop of Rome Hart. I will proue the pointes of both my propositions the which you haue denied First that the church must be subiect to the Bishop of Rome as to her head Next that the faith which you professe in England is not the catholike faith Rainoldes You will say somewhat for them but you will neuer proue them Hart. Let the church iudge For the first thus I proue it S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the same power ouer Bishops that he had ouer the Apostles Therefore the Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops If of Bishops then by consequent of the dioceses subiect to them If of all their dioceses then of the whole church The Bishop of Rome therefore is head of the whole church of Christ. Rainoldes S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops I had thought that Christ our Sauiour both was and is the head as of the whole church so of Apostles of Bishops of all the members of it For the church is his
infallible the councels interpretation And these meanes he saith are the onely certaine sure infallible meanes of vnderstanding and expounding the Scripture aright As for other meanes which learned men do vse such as you obserued out of S. Austin he graunteth they are profitable but deceitfull many waies if ech of them be seuerally taken by it selfe Which he proueth in particular by the chiefest of them first the weighing of circumstances what goeth before what commeth after next the wordes and kinde of speeches vsed in the Scriptures thirdly the conferēce of places togither one to be lightned by an other fourthly recourse to the fountaines of the Greeke and the Hebrue text Wherefore though I acknowledge your way to be a good way and such as I am well content to walke in when these our waies shall lead me to it notwithstanding sith it is common to vs with all Heretikes yea with Iewes and Painims who do all conferre places obserue the kinde of spéeches looke on the Gréeke and Hebrue fountaines marke what goeth before what commeth after and such like thinges and yet they are verye farre from the true vnderstanding of the scriptures I will my selfe practise it when I shall see good but there is no reason of yours that can enforce me to allow it simply Rainoldes The treatise of your Doctor against the Protestants opinion is like the army of Antiochus prepared against the Romans verie great and huge of men of many nations but white liuered souldiours neither so strong with armour as glistering with gold and siluer Antiochus him selfe was amazed at it and thought it vnuincible so did the simple fooles of his country too But the Romans contemned it and Annibal iested at it The name of Protestants which he vseth tauntingly as all one with Heretikes wée are no more ashamed of then were the Prophets and Apostles whom the Spirit of God hath honored with that title because they did make a protestation of their faith vpon the like occasion as did the faithfull in Germany when they were noted by that name The Protestants opinion I haue alreadie shewed to be the opinion of the auncient Protestants the Fathers the Apostles the holie Ghost who spake by them If you call it an errour we are content to erre with them If he thinke it an heresie we are no better then Paul who in such heresie serued God The ground which he layeth for the disproofe of it is such that it séemeth his wits and he had made a fray when he layed it He saith that the scripture ought to be expounded by the rule of faith and therfore not by scripture onely Which is in effect as if a man should say the church must be taught by liuing creatures endued with reason and therefore not by men onely For as a liuing creature endued with reason and a man is all one which euerie childe knoweth by the principles of logicke so the rule of faith and scripture is all one doth not your Doctor know it It is a principle of diuinitie deliuered by S. Austin whom he pretendeth chiefly in this point to follow Hart. And doth he not follow him Doth he not alleage S. Austins owne wordes In a doubtfull place of scripture let a man seeke the rule of faith which rule hee hath learned of plainer places of the scriptures and of the authoritie of the church to proue that the rule of faith must be fetched out of the authoritie of the church also not out of scriptures onely Rainoldes Yes he doth alleage S. Austins wordes in déed but as the false witnesses alleaged Christes wordes of destroying the temple and building it in three dayes the wordes against the meaning Which tricke the law noteth as an abusing of the lawe yet is it common with your Doctor For as Christ when he spake of raising the temple by the temple meant his bodie the witnesses did wrest it to the temple of Ierusalem so the authoritie of the church is mentioned by S. Austin as teaching scriptures onely your Doctor alleageth it as teaching somewhat beside the scriptures Hart. This is strange that S. Austin by the authoritie of the church meant no more then by the plainer places of the scriptures For so much you séeme to say in effect Rainoldes Be it strange yet is it true For him selfe declareth that to be his meaning not onely by the rest of his whole treatise wherein he doth establish the scriptures alone for the rule of faith to shew the sense of doubtfuller places by the plainer but also by the ende of this your owne sentence which Stapleton in alleaging it either negligently passed or craftily suppressed vnlesse the fault perhaps be in some other with whose eyes he read it For after these wordes let him seeke the rule of faith which rule he hath learned of plainer places of the scriptures and of the authoritie of the church it followeth in S. Austin Of which rule we haue sufficiently entreated in the first booke when we spake of thinges Now in that discourse to which he referreth vs he spake not of any thing as taught by the church but what is in the scripture Wherefore in these wordes by the authoritie of the church he meant not any thing beside the scripture If he did shew it If he did not acknowledge it Hart. He did For in the first booke where he spake of things hee shewed that the doctrine of the Trinitie is comprised in that rule of faith Which yet is not expresly set downe in the scriptures Rainoldes Expresly What meane you by this word expresly Hart. I meane that it is not expressed in the scriptures Rainoldes What Not the doctrine of the blessed Trinitie the Father the Sonne and the holie Ghost Hart. Not all that our faith doth hold of the Trinitie Rainoldes God forbid that we should hold of such a mysterie more then he teacheth by his word Hart. Certainly S. Austin writing to an Arian who denied that God the sonne is consubstantiall with the Father saith that as we reade not in the holie scriptures the Father vnbegotten yet it is defended that it must be said in lyke sort it may be that neither consubstantiall is founde written there and yet being said in the assertion of faith may bee defended And again disputing against Maximinus a Bishop of the Ariās Giue me testimonies saist thou where the holy Ghost is worshipped as though by those things which we do read we vnderstood not some thinges also which wee reade not But that I be not inforced to seeke many where hast thou read God the Father vnbegotten or vnborne And yet it is true Rainoldes And thinke you that S. Austin meant by these spéeches that the scriptures teach not that God the holy Ghost is to be worshipped God the Sonne is of one substance with the Father God the Father is
two and twentéeth as they number it For where it should be read as our Latin hath it and the Greeke also they haue pearced my hands and my feete the Hebrues now do reade not Caaru that is they haue pearced but Caari that is as a Lion as a Lion my hands and my feete Whereby a notable prophecie describing so plainely the maner and kind of the passion of Christ should bée taken out of our hands through the trechery of the Iewes if wée should folow the Hebrew text as it is now But it is so manifestly knowne to be corrupted that your selues though allowing the Hebrew as authenticall yet folowe it not in this place in your English Bibles Rainoldes This is the onely argument that Lindan hath of any shew to proue that the Iewes haue corrupted the Hebrew text But if it be weighed with an euen ballance you shall find it a meere cauill For what will you say of your owne selues Did the Church of Rome corrupt the Latin text in the third of Genesis where it is read of the woman she shall bruse thy head for that which should be read of thewomans séed he shall bruse thy head Hart. Some of your men say so But they do great iniury to the Church therin Rainoldes They haue as great cause at least if not greater to say this of Romanistes as you the other of the Iewes For if we match the prophecies this is more notable which is corrupted in your Latin of the victorie of Christ ouer Satan and ours through him If we compare errors this is more manifest in so much that it is proued to be an error euen by Lindan also not onely by others and the Hebrue text with the Chaldee paraphrase and the Greeke translation do all make against it as the Diuines of Louan graunt Hart. But this might créepe in by some humane ouersight or negligence of scriueners as sundry such errours haue crept in to writen bookes of all sortes euen in the best copies The words ipsa and ipse in which the variance lyeth doo not so greatly differ but that a man might easily mistake the one for the other Rainoldes No more do the wordes Caaru Caari The differēce is as smal Wherfore if the one might be an ouersight of scriueners in the Latin as you say and truely why might not the other be likewise in the Hebrew as it is gessed by Andradius And that it was so it is declared at large by Arias Montanus who for his singular knowledge and iudgement both in artes and tongues was chosen as I said to ouersée the setting foorth of that famous Bible in Hebrewe Chaldee Greeke and Latin which was printed at Anwerpe with the approbation of your Popes and Doctors For in the sixth tome of that worke he sheweth that when the Iewes returned into their countrey after their captiuitie of seuentie yeares in Babylon it befell vnto them partly by occasion of their long troubles which did distract their mindes partly by corruption of their natiue tongue which was growne out of kind first into the Chaldee and afterward into the Syriake that they neither knewe nor pronounced so wel the words of the scripture writen as the maner was without vowels Whereby it came to passe that in the writing of them their crept in some faulte either through iniury of the times or by reason of troubles which fell vpon the people or by negligence of some scriueners But this inconuenience was met withall afterward by most learned men such as Esdras was and afterward Gamaliel Ioseus Eleazar and other of great name who prouided by common trauell with great care and industry that the text of scripture and the true reading thereof should be preserued most sound and vncorrupt And from these men or from their instruction being receaued and poolished by their scholers in the ages folowing there came saith he as we iudge that most profitable treasure which is called Masoreth that is to say a deliuery because it doth deliuer aboundantly and faithfully all the diuers readings that euer were of the Hebrewe Bibles Wherein there appeareth an euident token of the prouidence of God for the preseruation of the sacred bookes of scripture whole and sound that the Masóreth hath beene kept till our time these many hundred yeares with such care and diligence that in sundry copies of it which haue bene writen no difference was euer found and it hath beene added in all the writen Bibles that are in Europe Afrike or Asia each of them agreing throughly therein with other euen as it is printed in the Venice-bibles to the great wonder of them who reade it Now in this Masoreth made so long ago so diligently writen so faithfully kept in so many countryes through so many ages as Arias Montanus witnesseth the Iewes them selues acknowledge by their owne testimonie that where in common bookes it is read Caari in certaine it is Caaru Wherefore if some Iewish scriueners who wrote out bookes depraued it of malice and spite which might be though they who accuse them doo bring neither autour nor time nor any sure argument to proue it but if some depraued it yet séeing their Masôreth doth note the diuerse reading and in part doth iustifie that which is the truer it is hard to charge them as you doo with corrupting of the Hebrewe text Much harder then if we should charge your Romish church with corrupting of the Latin where you read ipsa in stéed of ipse not he but she shall bruse thy head Hart. Not so for we haue kept also that reading ipse euen in our vulgar Latin translation For the Diuines of Louan do note that it is found in two writen copies And we do confesse it to be more agréeable both to the Hebrewe text and the Chaldee paraphrase the Greeke translation yea that S. Ierom read it so too as you may see in the Notations of Franciscus Lucas to which our latin Bibles set forth by the Diuines of Louan doo referre you Rainoldes Yet Franciscus Lucas doth wrangle still about it and saith that all the Latin copies which they could finde doo read it ipsa and of the two which you mention he doubteth whether one did folow the Latin or the Hebrewe and hee maketh shew of proofe that the Hebrew may well agree to the Latin with a litle hammering of it Yea and that is more as in al the Bibles that I haue séene of yours the Latin hath ipsa not ipse shee not he though your greatest frends haue wished you forshame to mēd it so in an Hebrue text of the famous Bible of king Philip which but now I mētioned the word he is altered according to the latin shee and that not of errour but of purpose as it is witnessed by Franciscus Lucas Which is greater boldnes in corrupting the Hebrue thē you can
the Emperours this witnesse and layeth the blame of those monsters vpon the Romanes themselues The noble men saith he of Rome to aduaunce their owne priuate power corrupted them to whom the Popes election belonged and thereby filled the Church almost two hundred yeares togither with grieuous seditions and shamefull euils and disorders These were the Marques Albert and Alberike his sonne a Consull the Earles of Thusculum they who were of their kinne or by their meanes had grown to wealth Who either bribing the people and clergie with money or spoiling them of the auncient libertie of the election by whatsoeuer other meanes preferred at their lust their kinsmen or frendes men commonly nothing like to the former Popes in holines and good order For the repressing of whose outrage Pope Leo the eighth reuiued the law which had beene made by Adrian the first and repealed by the third that no Pope elected should vndertake the Popedome without the Emperours consent Which law being taken away by occasion that the roome was sought ambitiously in the citie and purchased by bribes the state of the Church was put againe in great daunger through the priuate lusts of the same factions To prouide therefore a remedie for these things Henrie the Emperour came into Italie as hereupon Sigonius sheweth And so you may sée the lewdnes of Genebrard that shamelesse parasite of the Popes who without all reuerence both of God and man doth raile lye and falsifie stories to deface the Emperours and crosse the writers of the Centuries For he saith that the Emperours did as wilde boares eate vp the vineyard of the Lord the stories say that they deliuered it from wilde boares The stories say that the monsters of the Popes were chosen by the Romanes them selues he saith that they came in by intrusion of the Emperours The stories say that the Emperours who hunted out those beastes were vertuous and lawfull Princes he calleth them tyrants nor onely them but also many good Emperours moe who medled with the Popes election Finally the stories say that the Emperours were allowed by Popes and Councels to doo it he saith that they vsurped it by the right of Herode And yet him selfe recordeth and that in the same Chronicle too that Pope Adrian with a Councell Pope Leo with a Councell Pope Clemens with a Councell did graunt it vnto Charles Otho and Henrie the Emperours I haue read of an enuious man who was content to lose one of his owne eies that an other might lose both Genebrard is gone farther For he is content to put out both his owne eies that the writers of the Centuries may put out one of theirs That they may acknowledge them selues to haue praysed the German Emperours vniustly hee graunteth both that Popes with Councels haue erred and that their succession wa◠broken off a great while Wherein if you say the same with him M. Hart I am glad of it But your felowes I feare me will not allow that you say if you allow that he saith Hart. No body saith that the succession of Popes was broken off nor that the Popes may erre and Councels For as Genebrard taketh it Leo the eighth and Clemens the second were not Popes Rainoldes But Adrian the first was as Genebrard taketh it and that one of the best Popes Yet he did graunt as much to Charles the Emperour as Leo did to Otho as Clemens did to Henrie And if it be true that they were not Popes whom yet the Roman clergy with many Bishops chose then the Popes succession which is almost the onely eye of your Cyclops will be cleane put out by the deuise of this No-body And how shall the writings of our Countriemen Sanders Bristow and Rishton and such others do then who make the Popes succession the chiefest bulwarke of your Church a certaine marke that neuer faileth And what will No-body him selfe say to the third booke of his Chronicle where he wrote that Peters succession shall endure in the Church of Rome vntill the end of the world Was this true when he wrote the third booke and was it false when he wrote the fourth Hart. D. Genebrard whom you shal proue to be some-body ere you haue done though you be flouting him with No-body doth shew by the one place his meaning in the other For sith he wrote that Peters succession shall endure in the Church of Rome vntill the end of the world it is plaine he meant not that it was broken of at any time absolutely and simply Wherefore in that he addeth about the fiftie Popes that the lawful succession was disordered then he meant that it was broken but in some sort as it were or to say the truth rather brused then broken not interrupted but disturbed For neither Genebrard saith nor any Catholike writer els but that the succession of Popes hath continued and shall vnto the end Rainoldes Then I mistooke his meaning touching the succession and yours touching the Popes For I thought that you had denied that they were Popes who were theeues and robbers Now I perceiue you meant not absolutely and simply that they were not Popes but that they were not Popes after a kind of sort they were crackt Popes as you would say and not sound or perhaps in truth rather crased then crackt Yet the reason which you brought why they were not Popes doth stand in force against them still For it is true as you said that they did not succeede lawfully Wherefore either lawfull succession is not necessarie vnto your succession or the crased Popes were no Popes at al. They did succéede Simon but Simon the sorcerer and not Simon Peter Howbeit you must count them Simon Peters successours for your successions sake Else you spoile your Church of her gayest ornament through which the vnskilfull are most enamored of her Beside that neither would it helpe your cause a whit in tryall of the issue For sithence the Pope hath ouermaistred the Emperours and thrust from his election first them then the people afterward the clergie brought it to a few Cardinals there haue bene as monstrous Popes as were before still I except Iohn and haue come in as vnlawfully Hart. There were many tumultes and schismes in the Church chiefely through the Emperours meanes before that the matter could be brought about to that perfection and ripenes which it is now at But things began to mend from that time of disorder For by the vertue of Leo the ninth and the Popes folowing that vsurpation was taken from the Emperor Henrie the fourth although with great sturres And so was the Sée Apostolike of Rome restored to her auncient brightnes and beauty Whereof our owne daies haue séene the proofe and triall in many good Popes elected lawfully no doubt Pius the fourth Pius the fifth and him who raigneth now Gregorie the
of Rome auoucheth in his Nomocanon about the yeare eight hundred and sixtie Rainoldes Nay no more of Photius For it is not he as I haue shewed who saith it but Balsamon who commenteth on him And Balsamon is later by thrée hundred yeares Hart. Yet he was a Grecian too and an enimie of the Sée of Rome and therefore not likely to vouch it if it were not true Rainoldes But Genebrard hath graunted that to be false which he voucheth For he saith that Constantine did giue to Pope Syluester the prouinces and places and fortresses of al Italie or of the westerne countries and not the citie of Rome onely Neither doth he vouch this in respect of Rome but of Constantinople which being to enioy the priuileges of Rome by a law yâ— Photius rehearseth in his Nomocanon Now if you will know the priuileges of Rome saith Balsamon they are enrolled in the decree of Constantines donation made to Pope Syluester So that it was for loue to the Patriarkes Sée of Constantinople not to the Popes of Rome that hee auoucheth it that as Rome might therby claime al the West so Constantinople might get all the East Wherefore that circumstance that Balsamon was an enimie of the See of Rome doth nothing helpe the credit of Constantines donation Neither doth S. Isidore make much more for it as Nauclerus citeth him For as he citeth him he giueth him a touch withall to ouerthrow him There is saith Nauclerus no mention of Constantines donation in any autours but in the booke of decrees and the Archbishop of Florence Antoninus affirmeth in his chronicles that in ancient bookes of the Decreees it is not neither Which I greatly maruaile at sith Isidore reporteth plainely in his storie that Constantine did yeeld the citie of Rome vnto the Pope and all the imperiall ornaments that is to say the crowne the apparell and the white palfrey to ride vpon Nauclerus therefore citeth Isidore as saying it but so as though he thought all were not well in Isidore sith there is no mention of it in any autours of credit or antiquitie I shewed you before how the writings of the auncient Fathers haue beene corrupted to countenance the Popes power The storie of Isidore might be wrought in like sort to countenance the Popes pompe his triple crowne his robes imperiall his horses of estate Which to haue beene so it is the more likely because it is testified by men who had helpes to seâ—ch and sée such auncient euidences that in olde copies of Isidore that is not found And perhaps if that storie of Isidore were printed that we might haue the sight of it it were no hard matter to finde sâ—me tokens there of forgerie At the least it séemeth that Genebrard himselfe suspected some weakenes in that point of Isidore and therefore neither citeth him but as out of Nauclerus and addeth that he wrote at the time that Gregorie did speake much of the Churches landes For if I mistake not the policie of Genebrard he mentioneth the ample landes and possessions which the church had farre and wide through the west in the time of Gregorie to the intent that men might conceiue thereof that the citie of Rome was part of those lands sith Isidore who wrote at the same time reporteth that it was giuen to the Pope But this obseruation which he made to streÌ„ghthen his autours report doth most of all weaken it For neither doth Gregorie name the citie of Rome as part of those landes which in his epistles he sheweth that the church had through the west Hart. But he doth by your leaue For in the fifth booke and the twelfth epistle we make saith hee Montanus and Thomas free-men and citizens of Rome Whereby he declareth that Rome was of the Popes dominion and right as Genebrard concludeth of it Rainoldes Genebrard obiecteth ignorance of antiquitie to the Centurie-writers But in bringing this to conuince their ignorance hée bewrayeth his owne For Thomas and Montanus whom Gregorie made free-men and citizens of Rome were his slaues or bondmen Now amongst the Romans any man might lawfully make his bond men frée and whom he made free them he made citizens as by their auncient law so by Iustinians who liued before Gregories time and reuiued it Wherefore the enfranchising of Thomas and Montanus proueth not that Rome was of the Popes dominion more theâ— of any other Romans And so the circumstance of Gregories time and testimonie which Genebrard would strengthen his tale with doth weaken it For neither is the citie of Rome named by Gregorie amongst the Churches landes as I was about to say and at the verie time that Gregorie was Pope the Emperours held the citie gouerned it as they were wont by a Lord Deputie Then hetherto his witnesses of Constantines donation doo bring it small comfort Doo the rest say more for it Hart. Nicephorus saith in the seuenth booke the nine and fourtieth chapter Constantine did consecrate and giue vnto Christ the palace of Lateran Which thing S. Ierom also had touched before him in an epistle to Oceanus and experience proueth it euen till this day while that is the chiefe See of the Bishop of Rome Rainoldes I perceiue it was either a foxe or a ferne-bush that Genebrard espyed He thought he had séene the whole citie of Rome giuen by Constantine to the Pope and now hee hath found that Constantine did turne his palace into a church that the Pope might teach there and Christians come together to pray and serue God For this is all that Ierom and Nicephorus say Hart. But Nicephorus saith farther in the six and fortieth chapter that Constantine endowed all the churches of the world and Bishoprikes out of his treasurie according to the state and worthinesse of them Therefore he endowed much more the church of Rome then of Eugubium and so forth Rainoldes Nicephorus saith that Constantine did giue through all prouinces some part of the publike reuenues to the churches but not that he did giue according to the state and worthines of ech of them That Genebrard doth adde to kéepe his hands in vre Howbeit if Nicephorus had said that he endowed them according to their state and worthines and therefore more the Church of Rome then of Eugubium yet is not the donation proued by Nicephorus Hart. But reade him also in the eighth booke the third and fourth chapters in the tenth booke the fifth chapter Rainoldes And there shall you finde as much as in the former Hart. Iuo in his Pannomia about the yeare of Christ eleuen hundred and ten doth â—ite certaine thinges out of the charter of the priuilege of Constantines donation Gratian about the yeare eleuen hundred and fiftie Bartolomaeus Picernus and many mo doo bring foorth either all or partes of it Rainoldes Picernus What an autour is he to proue it A hungrie companion who liued
and loosing giuen Peter as though after Peter it were proper to the Pope Denys saith the contrarie that it is common to all Bishops Whereby you may perceiue beside that if the title which he giueth Peter did proue his supremacie though I haue shewed it doth not but if it did yet your commoÌ„ reason from Peters supremacie to the Popes is iointlesse For he who calleth Peter chiefe of the Apostles yet maketh Bishops equal and giueth Rome no greater priuilege then Antioche or Ierusalem But to knit vp that which brought vs vnto this of Denys you sée that your Rhemists tale of the assumption of the blessed virgin is contrarie to the scriptures Yet they doo beléeue it for the authoritie of Fathers That I might dout iustly whether you would beléeue the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of errour by the scriptures Hart. I cannot beléeue that the scriptures are against it For the Church doth holde it I meane the Catholike Church of Rome Rainoldes In that your Rhemists lauish too For though the lying Greekes as your Molanus calleth them doo vouch it very boldly yet the Latin writers do say it is vncertaine Yea the verie Martyrologe of the Roman Church affirmeth that the Church celebrateth the memory of S. Maries death but where it hath pleased God to hide her body the Churches sobrietie hath chosen rather to be ignorant therof religiously then to holde and teach some friuolous thing forged How much the more shamefull is the misdemeanor first of a Papist who saith that it is certaine she was assumpted by death not onely in soule but in body also then of the Pope who setting foorth his new Portesse saith that those things which are vncertaine are put out where this is left in which they can not denie themselues to be vncertaine But your Rhemists passe Who as though the Porâ—esse were not bolde enough in alleaging Damascene though it mende his tale with more then one lye they take that which their Portesse doth tell them lye and al and father it vpon S. Denys that it may haue the greater credit Hart. Our Rhemists will render good account I dout not of this which they haue writen when they shall heare what is said against it And that which you declared out of the holy scriptures concerning the time of S. Denys conuersion which is the greatest argument that you brought yet to disproue the storie auouched of his preseÌ„ce at the departure of our Lady I must referre to them For I my selfe know not indéede how to accord it But why do you presse that point about the Fathers touching their ouerseeing ether the wordes or meaning or consequent of the scriptures We are past the scriptures and proofes that the Fathers do gather out of them Rainoldes But if they may gather amisse out of the scriptures and ouershoote them selues in the word of God they may be deceiued in the word of man too and either not conceiue well or not remember well or not conclude well of it Which hapned to S. Ierom in that same point that I reproued a litle rather in Eusebius For he reckning Philo the Iew amongst the Christian ecclesiastical writers doth it he saith for this reason because Philo writing a booke touching the first Church planted by the Euangelist S. Mark in Alexandria hath praised the Christians reporting them to be not onely there but in many countries and calling their dwelling places Monasteries Whereby it is apparant that the Church of beleeuers in Christ at the first was such as moonkes endeuour and seeke to be now that nothing is any mans owne in proprietie none is rich amongst them none poore their patrimonies are distributed to the needy they giue them selues wholy to prayer and to singing of Psalmes and to learning and to continencie of life such as S. Luke also doth write that the beleeuers were first at Ierusalem And this booke of Philo touching the life of our men that is of men Apostolike is entitled of the contemplatiue life of men that pray because they did contemplate studie and meditate heauenly things and prayed to God alwayes Thus farre S. Ierom. Wherein that the pointes of contemplation and prayer being somewhat like in them whom Philo wrote off and in the Christian Church did make him to mistake the one for the other as likenes they say is the mother of error but that they were not Christians whom Philo meant in that booke it may appeere by foure circumstances of names of deedes of times and of places For they of whom Philo doth write were called Essees which was a sect of Iewes of whom some liued in action and some in contemplation The Christians were neuer knowne by name of Essees either contemplatiue or actiue Againe they in Philo did leaue their goods and substance to their sonnes or daughters or kinsemen or if they had no kinsemen to their friendes The Christians gaue them to the poore and such as stood in need of succour Moreouer the solemne day which they in Philo did meete together publikely to heare the word of God taught was the seuenth day of the weeke which was the Sabbat of the Iewes the saterday as we cal it The Christians were wont to meete on the first day of the weeke that is sonday the Lordes day as S. Iohn termeth it Finally they whom Philo discourseth of did liue in no towne or citie but without in gardens and solitarie places The Christians liued in cities Euen they who are namely mentioned by Ierom I meane the Christian Church placed by S. Marke in Alexandria were planted in the citie Alexandria it selfe whereas it is precisely noted by Philo that his Iewish moonkes did dwell about it and without it Wherefore it is manifest that Ierom did mistake or had forgot the wordes of Philo. Howbeit if he had both well conceiued and remembred them yet he thereof inferred amisse that the moonkes in his time were such as S. Luke doth write that the beleeuers were first at Ierusalem For the beleeuers at Ierusalem might keepe their owne if they listed as Peter saith to Ananias while it remained perteined it not to thee And when it was sold was it not in thine own power But Ierom saith that his moonks may not haue proprietie in any thing of their owne Beside the moonkes of Ierom did liue in continencie The beléeuers at Ierusalem had wiues vsed them for any thing that S. Luke sheweth Though by the way to note the difference betwéene the Iewish moonkes the Christian who els would be too like some of the Christian moonks in Ieroms time had wiues did beget childreÌ„ which I haue not read that anie of the Iewish did Last of all the moonkes whom Ierom doth meane as he must néedes by Philo were moonkes according to their
Fathers that hath not beene abused so The Frier whom Stapleton doth commend greatly for diligence and iudgement Sixtus Senensis hath writen a discourse touching the false entitling of bookes whence it cometh and how to finde it out Therein he hath proued that bookes are fathered falsly not onely vpon Austin and Ierom whom I named but also vpon Ambrose Cyprian Athanasius Eusebius Emisenus Iunilius Cyrill Eucherius Arnobius yea Thomas of Aquine too With this discourse he closeth vp the former volume of his holy librarie in which hee hath shewed that Clemens Abdias Origen Chrysostome Hippolytus many mo haue had their names defaced with the same iniury Hart. There are many bookes entitled to the Fathers falsly we confesse I will not bring them in to witnesse against you or if I doo you may refuse them lawfully Rainoldes Then you will not bring in the storie of Abdias to proue that Peter gaue the whole power to Clemens which Christ had giuen him Or if you doo you license me to refuse him as fréely as I refused his coosin Clemens in the same point Neither will you bring Arnobius on the Psalmes to proue that who so goeth out of Peters Church shal perish as doth Stapleton Or if you doo you license me to refuse him as not the man whom Stapleton would haue him taken for Hart. You may refuse Abdias For Pope Paule the fourth reiected him amongst the bookes which he condemned as Sixtus recordeth But Arnobius is an ancient writer indéede more worthy of credit Rainoldes More worthy of credit then Abdias I graunt But he is not that writer most ancient whom Stapleton reporteth him to be For the most ancient Arnobius was elder as Sixtus also noteth then that he might heare of the heresie of Photinus Whereas this Arnobius who writeth on the Psalmes doth mention Photinus and write by name against his heresie Hart. Will you stand then to the iudgement of Sixtus which be the right and naturall graffes of the Fathers and which bee bastard slippes Rainoldes No. For though Sixtus did sée many thinges yet he saw not all and others may sée that which Sixtus ouersaw As for example there are two bookes touching the martyrdom of Peter and Paule bearing the name of Linus the first Bishop of Rome These doth Sixtus iudge to haue indeede béene writen by that ancient Linus as Faber also did before him But Claudius Espencaeus doth maruel that Faber a learned man and witty could be so perswaded sith Peter in that storie is made to withdraw the Roman wiues matrones from their husbands beddes vnder pretense of chastitie Which vnchristian doctrine repugnant to the lawes of godlinesse and honestie nether was it possible that Peter should teach neither is it likely that Linus should belye him with it And thus you sée an autor disallowed by Espencaeus on very sound reason whom Sixtus hath allowed of not so discretely Hart. But if you thus allow and disallow whom you list I may take paines in vaine For when I shall alleage this or that Father speaking most expressely for the Popes supremacie you haue your answere readie that he was ouerséene through error or ouerborne with affection or if he wrote in Gréeke he is mistranslated or if he wrote in Latin he was misse writen or misseprinted or if none of these will serue it is a bastard falsly fathered on him And whether your shifts be sufficient answeres your selfe will be iudge Hart. Nay not so nether For what soeuer I answere I will giue reason of it And whether my reasons bee sufficient proofes I will permit it as I said to the iudgement of the iurie that is of all indifferent men who haue skill to weigh the reasons that are brought and conscience to giue verdict according vnto that they finde Which triall if you like off as you séemed to doo then bring forth your witnesses and let vs heare now the Fathers speake themselues Hart. Content And I will â—irst beginne with the Fathers of the Church of Rome euen the auncient Bishops whom I alleaged before out of D. Stapleton namely Anacletus Alexander the first Pius the first Victor Zepherinus Marcellus Eusebius Melchiades Iulius and Damaâ—us To whom I adde also them whom you mentioned out of Melchior Canus to wéete the two Sixti with Eleutherius and Marcus For though some of them maintain it as by scripture some as by tradition yet all agrée in this that they maintaine the Popes supremacie Rainoldes In déed though their heades be turned one from an other yet their tailes méete together with a firebrand betwixt them as did the foxes of Samson But Samson had three hundred foxes haue you no more but these fewe Hart. Foxes doo you call those holy martyrs and Bishops And will you still vtter such blasphemous spéeches and set your mouth against heauen Rainoldes Against hell M. Hart and not against heauen For I reuerence the holy martyrs whom yoâ— named But foxes I call those beastes who wrote the thinges that Stapleton and Canus quote most lewdly and iniuriously to the martyrs and Bishops whom they are falsly fathered on as I will proue Which that I may doo with lesser trouble all in one I would you brought the rest if you haue any more of them Hart. More Why all the Bishops of Rome from them forward euen till our age haue taught the same doctrine as Canus declareth For it is confirmed by Innocentius the first in his epistles to the Councels of Carthage and Mileuis by Leo in his epistles to Anastasius and the Bishops of the prouince of Vienna by Gelasius in his epistl◠〈◊〉 Anastasius the Emperour and in the decrees which hee made with the seuentie Bishops and in his epistle to the Bishops of Dardania by Vigilius in his decrees the last chapter of them by Pelagius the second to the Bishops that were assembled in the citie of Constantinople by S. Gregorie in his epistle to Austin the Bishop of the Englishmen and by many other Popes whose testimonies are rehersed in the decrees and decretals in the twelfth distinction and seuenteenth and ninetéenth and twentieth and one and twentieth and two and twentieth and the eightieth distinction in the canon beginning with the worde Vrbes and the ninety sixth distinction in the canon Bene and in the foure and twentieth cause the first question throughout many chapters and in the fiue and twentieth cause the first question and in the title of election in the chapter beginning with the word Significasti and the title of priuileges the chapter Amiqua and the title of baptisme the chapter Maiores and the title of election in the sixth booke of decretals the chapter Fundamenta and in the Extrauagants the constitution Vâ—am sanctam which extrauagant constitution was renewe◠〈◊〉 approued by the Councell of Lateran vnder Leo the tenth So that you haue
say this or that against a man you must proue it Rainoldes So I minde to doo And that by demonstration out of the saâ—e booke of Genebrard himselfe in which he â—indeth this faute with the Centurie-writers For about what yeare of Christ did Isidore dye How doth Genebrard recken Hart. In the yeare six hundred thirtie and seuen as he proueth out of Vasaeus Rainoldes When was the generall Councell of Constantinople vnder Agatho kept What saith he of that Hart. In the yeare six hundred foure score and one or two or there about Rainoldes Then Isidore was dead aboue fourtie yeares before that generall Councell Hart. He was but what of that Rainoldes Of that it doth folow that the preface writen in Isidores name and set before the Councels to purchase credit to those epistles is a counterfeit and not Isidores For in that preface there is mention made of the generall Councell of Constantinople held against Bishop Macarius and Stephanus in the time of Pope Agatho Constantine the Emperour Which séeing it was held aboue fourtie yeares after Isidore was dead by Genebrards owne confession by his owne confession Isidore could not tell the foure score Bishops of it And so the foure score Bishops which Turrian hath found out in one Isidore are dissolued all into one counterfeit abusing both the name of Isidore and foure score Bishops Hart. Igmarus who was Archbishop of Rhemes in the time of Lewes sonne to Charles about seuen hundred yeares since did thinke that worke to be S. Isidores and so he citeth it Rainoldes Why mention you that Are you disposed to proue that some haue béene deceiued and thought him Isidore who was not Hart. No But to proue that the worke is Isidores as Father Turrian doth by the testimonie of Igmarus Rainoldes Ignarus can not proue that He must be content to be deceiued in some what as well as his ancestors For it is too cléere by the Councels them selues that Isidore did dye about the time that we agréed of and therefore no helpe but it must be an other who wrote that preface in his name Which maketh me so much the more to suspect that the epistles are counterfeit sith I finde that a Father was counterfeited to get them credit And sure it is likely that about the time of Charles the great when the westerne Churches did commonly-fetch bookes from the Roman librarie some groome of the Popes that had an eye to the almes-box conueied this pamphlet in amongst them and well meaning men in France and other countryes receyued it as a worthie worke compiled by S. Isidore and coming from the See Apostolike But say what may be saide for the silence of olde witnesses which is vrged and iustly as a probable coniecture that those epistles were not extant in their dayes the matters that are handled and debated in them the scriptures alleaged the stories recorded the ceremonies mentioned the times and dates assigned are not coniectures probable but most certaine proofes that they could not be writen by those ancient Bishops of Rome whose names they beare There is a booke entitled to the Poet Ouid touching an olde woman haue you euer séene it Hart. What is that to the purpose Doth he speake of the Popes epistles Rainoldes No but their epistles are like to that booke in sundrie respectes It is ancient it was printed aboue a hundred yeares ago And he who set it foorth saith that Ouid wrote it in his old age and willed it to be laide vp in his graue with him in the which graue it was found at length by the inhabitants of the countrey who sent it to Constantinople and the Emperour gaue it to Leo his principal notarie who did publish it A smooth tale to make men beleeue that it is Ouids Of whom though it sauour no more then these epistles of the Bishops of Rome yet if your Diuines could finde some antike verse there that were an euidence for the Popes supremacie I sée my former reasons would not disswade you from beléeuing but Ouid wrote the booke For to the barbarousnes and basenes of the Latin and style if I should vrge it you might answere that Ouid wrote so for two causes that he might not séeme to be vaine gloriously giuen and that his repentance might bee knowne euen to the simplest To the silence of witnesses that no man maketh mention of it amongst his workes you might answere that it lay hidden in his graue And this you might answere with greater shew of likelyhood then that the Popes epistles lay hidden in the Popes librarie But vnto the matters of which the booke intreateth and thinges that it discourseth on no shadow of defense can be made with any reason For it speaketh in the praise of the virgin Marie that God shall giue her to be our mediatresse and shall assumpt her into heauen and place her in a throne with him yea the autour prayeth to her Which are pointes of doctrine that were not heard of I trow in Ouids time Neither is it likely that Ouid was so well read in the scriptures that he could cite the law of Moses and speake of Iacob and Esau and allude to Salomon in Ecclesiastes Euen so for those epistles of the Bishops of Rome although you haue gloses to shift of other reasons yet I am perswaded that you can lay no colour on the contents and substance of them For the scriptures are so alleaged and such pointes are taught about the gouernment of the Church about religion about rites about stories ecclesiasticall that it is not possible they should be writen by those Bishops Hart. Why Doo you thinke it as vnlikely a matter that they should alleage the scriptures as that Ouid should Rainoldes Nay I doo thinke it or rather I doo know it to be more vnlikely that they should so alleage the scriptures as they doo then that Ouid should allude to Salomon or cite Moses For the bookes of Moses perhaps of Salomon too were translated into Gréeke by the Seuentie interpreters many a yeare before Ouid and he might haue read them But your common Latin translation of the olde testament made a great part of it by S. Ierom out of the Hebrewe whence it is called S. Ieroms could not be séene by Anacletus and other auncient Bishops of Rome For they were deceased before he was borne And yet all their epistles doo alleage the scriptures after that translation An euident token that the writer of them did liue after S. Ierom yea a great while after him as may bee déemed probably For the common Latin translation which the ancient Latin Fathers vsed was made out of the Gréeke of the Seuentie interpreters Tertullian Cyprian Hilarie Ambrose and other of the same ages shew it in all their writings Nether was that olde translation forsaken straight waies as soone as Ierom had set forth his
possessed any they bore not themselues as Lordes of the whole Countie I meane they neyther claimed nor vsed the supremacie Hart. But will you graunt that so much then of the suprepremacie as they claimed or vsed belongeth to their Sée and is theirs of right Rainoldes No. For the exception which I made against them was of two branches one that they auouch not the supremacie of the Pope the other that they auouch more through affection then is true and right And this is very manifest not onely by the dealinges of them whom I named but also by the writinges of them whom you alleaged Hart. Of the thirde sort of Popes if you meane they may be refused perhaps with greater shewe of reason But they whom I alleaged of the second sort were holy men and Saints Rainoldes The Apostles of Christ I hope were Saintes too Yet hath the spirite of God set down for our instruction that they did not onely desire superioritie but also striue about it Innocentius Leo Gelasius Vigilius Pelagius and Gregorie the men whoÌ„ you alleaged were not greater then the Apostles And the praise which they giue to their See of Rome doth so excéede the truth that it beareth euident markes of their affection You might haue perceiued it in that which you cited out of Innocentius concerning the Fathers and the sentence of God by which he saith they decreed that whatsoeuer was done in prouinces farre off it should not be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome For what were the Fathers who decréed that where is the sentence of God by which they did it Though this is the least of many friendlie spéeches which not Innocentius onely but the rest too as I haue shewed in Leo doo lend their Church Peter Yea some flat repugnant to the holy scripture and that confessed by your selues For they say that all Churches tooke their beginning from the Roman The holy scripture maketh Ierusalem the spring of them They say that all Bishops had their honor and name from Peter The holy scripture teacheth that many had it from other Apostles not from him They say that the Church of Rome hath neither spot norwrinckle nor any such thing The holy scripture sheweth that the Church is sanâ—ctified framed to be hereafter not hauing spot or wrinckle or any such thing wheÌ„ Christ shal make it glorious triumphant in heauen not but that it hath such while it is militant on the earth Which is so apparant that not the Fathers only but Thomas of Aquine also and D Stapleton confesse it Wherefore howsoeuer holy men they were of the second sort of Popes which you alleaged it cannot be denied but they had affections and yéelded thereunto as men Howbeit the thirde sort I graunt are best worthy to be excepted against for this fault For it is a small thing with them to vse spéeches repugnant to the Scripture but they must abuse yea coine scripture too for maintenance of their Papall port They can teach the Church that the Pope may offer to confirme Archbishops vpon this condition if they will be sworne to him because wheÌ„ Christ committed his sheepe vnto Peter he did condition with him saying if thou loue me feede my sheepe They can teach the Church that the Pope hath power ouer all powers Princes of the earth none hath power ouer him because the spirituall man iudgeth all thinges yet hee himselfe is iudged of no maÌ„ They can teach the Church that Christ ordeyned Peter and Peters successors to be his vicars who by the testimony of the booke of kinges must needes be so obeyed that he who obeieth them not must die the death and as it is read otherwhere Hee that forsaketh the Bishop of Romes chaire cannot bee in the Church Hart. That which is cyted out of the booke of kinges is in the booke of Deuteronomie The text is true scripture though the place mistaken And though it belong not to the Pope immediatly Rainoldes Nay neuer goe about to salue it M. Hart. That of Deuteronomie we haue alredy handled Pope Leo the tenth and his Councel of Laterane had a strong affection to make the Popes Kinges when they alleaged the booke of kinges for Deuteronomie Deuteronomie for the Papacie But what soeuer you think of the third or seconde or any sort of Popes it is against all law both of God and man that they should bée witnesses in their own matter And therefore if your proofe of their supremacie be no better the iury will cast you out of all controuersie For if I should beare witnesse of my selfe saith Christ my witnesse were not true None are fit witnesses in their own causes no not though they were as worthy meÌ„ as Scipio was amoÌ„gst the Romans It were a bad plea in Westminster Hall Iohn a Noke must haue this land for Iohn a Noke saith so The Canonistes themselues when Popes alleage Popes for proofe of certaine pointes touching their supremacie doe note that it is a familiar kind of proofe meaning such belike as that in the common prouerbe Aske my felow if I be a theefe Which they might note the better because it is euideÌ„t that the Popes haue stretched out their owne frindges in laying claime to large power as great Diuines among you haue written in these very termes Hart. The power which they claimed hath séemed ouer large to enuious and malicious men But it was no more then their right and due Which because you thinke not sufficiently prooued by the Popes themselues I will prooue it farther by the wordes and testimonies of other ancient Fathers Rainoldes Of whom Hart. Of the chéefest of them both Gréeke and Latine For it was the prerogatiue of the Popes office that made S. Bernarde séeke to Innocentius the third Epist. 190. S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike to Innocentius the first and to Caelestinus Epist. 90.92.95 S. Chrysostome to the saide Innocentius Epist. 1. 2. S. Basil to the Pope in his time Epist. 52. S. Ierom to Damasus Epist. 57.58 tom 2. and other likewise to others that by them they might be confirmed in faith and ecclesiasticall regiment Rainoldes If you bring such witnesses to proue the Popes supremacie I must request the iury to haue an eye to the issue For some of these Fathers desired to be helped by their aduise and counsell some by their autoritie and credit some by both By their aduise and counsell as Ierom of Damasus By their autoritie credit as Chrysostome of Innocentius By both as Basill Austin and the Bishops of Afrike of the Popes in their time Bernard somewhat more But he liued yesterday in comparison of the rest and therfore not to be numbred amongst the auncient Fathers Though neither he by this
dastardes which you set against them My former wordes of the Apostles as being equall in power agrée well with these of Peter and Paule For I say not that Paule was aboue Peter but that he might haue bene aboue him in power for all the honour which he gaue him And this is sufficient to ouerthrowe your reason But if my example of the Pope and Emperour did cause you to mistake me you may take an other and fitter for the purpose the Colledge Apostolike as the Pope dooth call them I meane the Cardinalles of Rome Who though they be in states orders and liuings one aboue an other yet in all things and with all curtesies they all giue hie reuerence one vnto an other And when any of them doth come into the chappell of the Popes holinesse to say his deuotions he turneth towardes the Cardinalles of his owne order and goeth not directly to his own place vnlesse he be the lowest but beginning at the lowest as though he wold abide there he is desired entreated of euery one to go higher vntil hee come directly to his own place vnlesse he be the lowest himselfe demurely once again desireth him who is next vnto him that he will go before him at leÌ„gth he sitteth down in his place This is a foule trouble to make so much adoo at the comming in of euerie Cardinall to prayers chiefly when prayers are begun Yet to shew how modestly they thinke of themselues and how they honour one an other euery one that commeth after others dooth it whither the Pope be there or no. Out of doubt Cardinalles men of such wisedome would not commit this folly if euery one whom they honour must be aboue them in power But you deale iniuriously with me to say that you framed your reason out of the scriptures and Fathers and I bring the booke of Ceremonies to kill it For neither did you ground vpon the wordes of scripture but onely on a circumstance obserued by the Fathers that Paule went to Peter of reuerence to honour him and I slew the reason which you made thereof with the sword of scriptures I vsed the booke of Ceremonies but as an Irish Lackey to cut off a dead mans head I would not haue vouchsafed as much as to name him but to cast the doong of your solemnities in your faces and to shewe the fondnesse of a Popish reason by practise of a Papall mockery Though I sée not why you should preferre so the scriptures and Fathers before the booke of Ceremonies For the booke of Ceremonies speaketh more good of the Pope in one leafe then both the other doo throughout all their volumes And it is solemnely printed at Rome with Peters picture in the front and the keies in his handes and Feede my sheepe written about him as a booke of great account where many of the Fathers doo lye in the dust of the Vatican Library and cannot come into the light Notwithstanding if you be willing to yéeld your selfe prisoner to the Fathers as Gentlemen thinke the booke of Ceremonies to be a raskall souldiour whom you disdaine to yéeld vnto behold your owne witnesses who make not Paule inferiour to Peter otherwise then in the time of his Apostleship the one made first the other last S. Ierome who putteth an equalitie betweene them though Paule did honour him as an Apostle before him S. Chrysostome who pronounceth that Paule to say no more of him was Peters peere in dignitie S. Ambrose who giueth a primacy to them both and saith that Paule was euen such an other as Peter S. Austin who declareth their authoritie to haue beene equall and that for Paules honor what he wanteth in time is supplied by Christes glory in that he made him an Apostle not as the rest vpon the earth but when he raigned now in maiestie And these things are written by the same Fathers whose wordes touching the honour that Paule gaue to Peter your Doctor setteth in a beadrole as though in their iudgement Paule acknowledged Peter his supreme head thereby Wherein you may perceiue both his deceitfull dealing that alleageth their wordes as setting one aboue the other who in expresse words doo make one equall to the other and your expositions how iumpe they méete with the Fathers who gathered an equalitie of Peter and Paul by the epistle to the Galatians whence you conclude Peters supremacy ouer Paule Hart. How the Fathers all agrée with one consent of Peters supremacy it shall be shewed hereafter As for the circumstance which I obserued out of them touching the fact of Paule yâ— when he went to see Peter he went of reuerence to honour him I doo not account so greatly thereof as of the fact it selfe nor vrge I the Fathers so much obseruing that as the report of this made by the Scriptures For they set it forth with so liuely wordes as if it were of purpose to paint out Peters primacie Then after thre yeares I went to Ierusalem saith Paule to see Peter and taried with him fifteene daies Marke his words I pray and sée what weight they cary with them He went to Ierusalem so farre so long a iourney and he went notwithstanding his great affaires ecclesiastical and he went to see Peter not in the vulgar maner but as S. Chrysostom noteth that the Gréeke word importeth to behold him as men behold a thing or person of name excellencie and maiestie Neither did he go onely to see him but he abode with him also to fill him selfe with a perfit viewe of his behauiour And he abode with him no common time but fifteen daies fiftene daies a great matter and more then many would thinke who doo not search the depth of scriptures In such estimation was Peter with Paule and will you yet deny his primacy Rainoldes King Agesilaus when one praysed an Orator that he could amplifie thinges and make them of small to séeme great I saith hée would neuer count him a good shoomaker who would put a great shoo vpon a small foote You play the Orator M. Hart with your amplifications and that in such sort as you passe the shoomaker of Agesilaus For you do not only put a great shoo vpon a small foote but you stretch the leather with your â—éeth too And yet when you haue wéeried your selfe with stretching it you will haue stretched it in vaine For though your shoo be too great for the primacy of Peter yet will it be too small for the supremacy of the Pope Hart. We speake not of the Pope now but of Peter Why stray you from the point Rainoldes I thought they had béene things both of one nature and differing in name only But I will speake of Peter And that you may sée that the shoo which you made is too great for his foote I will shew it by a plaine demonstration to the
purposes But you may not be touched with any such suspiciō Why Because the doctrines which you professe are not olde and ample heresies you say no not heresies ours are so not yours Whether in opinions of faith and religion which are in controuersie betwéene vs you or we doo hold heresies that is the point in question Your or mine yea or nay is no sufficient proofe of either But of which soeuer it shall appeare by conference that they are repugnant to the holy scriptures let them be iudged heresies and the men heretikes who stubburnly mainteine them Thus much you can not choose but grant that your opinions are olde and spread abroad for you claime antiquitie vniuersalitie whereof you say that our opinions haue neither It is more likely therefore by Vincentius that you who by long continuance of time haue had long occasion to steale away the truth should corrupt the Fathers then wée who haue not had it And in very truth as the worship of Images the greatest abomination that first preuailed in Poperie was confirmed by writings very vncertaine and fabulous yea by dreames of women and visions of Deuils in the second Nicen Councell as the thing it selfe and great Clerkes of your owne testifie so the rest of your errours which ouerflowed Christendome in darkenes of superstition haue bene most authorised by forged déedes and bastard writings begotten by some varlets and fathered on the Doctors The Schoolemen and Canonists whose handes were chiefe in this iniquitie did beare the whole sway for many yeares togither in Uniuersities and Churches The Doctors Fathers were pretended much but more pretended then regarded and their bookes corrupted what through ignorance of scriueners who copied them out before the vse of printing what through impudence of forgers who coined counterfeites in their names Now when they lay thus distressed and diseased in the dust of Libraries Erasmus a man of excellent iudgement and no lesse industrious then learned and wittie did enterprise first to cure them and brought them foorth into the light In the workes of S. Ierome which were most of all depraued aboue others chiefly the former tomes he did what he could both to clense them from blemishes and to lighten them with his notes Hee professed that his coniectures in restoring of places had not satisfied himselfe alwaies He promised that if any man should restore them better hee would both embrace his trauaile very gladly and reioyce at the publike profit What sparkle of thankfulnes but I let go thankfulnes what sparkle of ingenuitie was there and good nature in Marian Victorius who requiteth such a worke so carefully attempted so painfully performed so modestly excused with the tauntes and contumelies of erring of lying of craftines of ignorance of heresie of impietie Aristotle writeth of them who begin a thing in pointes of learning that although they seeme to do lesse then others who receiue it of them and after adde thereto yet they do more in deed because the beginning of euery thing is hardest and it is easie to adde Wherevpon he craueth of such as he hath sought to benefite by his labour thankes for that he found pardon for that hee missed If Victorius haue profited no better in the schoole of Christ let him goe to Aristotle and learne first to thinke more humbly of him selfe afterward to deale more modestly with others And you who like of him because hee findeth fault with the dooings of Erasmus as a shoomaker did with the picture of Apelles for missing in a shoo-latchet may know that good and learned men among your selues haue found fault with him for being bold beyond the shoo That dooth Molanus witnes one of your chiefest Doctors and Censors of bookes who in S. Ieromes workes set foorth at Anwerpe hath therefore circumcised the lippes of Victorius Hart. Molanus hath reproued and corrected him for vnciuill spéeches against the person of Erasmus as wherein he past the boundes of Christian modestie not for ouersight in that hée laid errours to Erasmus charge Though the speciall point for which we blame Erasmus is not this so much of errours in S. Ierome His censures on S. Austin are misliked most in that he reiecteth sundry bookes as counterfeit which Torrensis proueth to bee S. Austins owne Whereof the importance and danger is the greater because some will haue nothing taken for S. Austins but what Erasmus hath allowed Rainoldes Molanus did couer the sinnes of Victorius whē he found no other fault with his notes but of vnciuill spéeches If fauour to the man and fansie to the cause had not made him partiall he might haue said of him that as he past the bounds of Christian modestie in railing at Erasmus person so had he past the boundes of Christian truth in noting errours of Erasmus But he that would affirme Erasmus to be ignorant of the Greeke toong wherof his workes so many both in diuinitie and humanitie through all sortes of writers doo proclaime the contrarie néedeth no other Censor to aduertise men with what eyes he looked into Erasmus dooings It was not Erasmus ignorance of Greeke which bredde so many errours in his corrections of or notes vpon S. Ierome It was his knowledge of the Latine the Romane churches faults It was his skil of the Italian abuses of the Pope It was the triacle which he giueth that séemeth poison vnto you These thinges because they moued many to suspect that somewhat in Popery was not of the best it was thought expedient that they should bee taken out of S. Ierome Victorius to doo it with a faire shew pretended other errours but through too much choler hee bewraied his humour He lacked that discretion which hath bene shewed since by the Diuines of Louan in setting foorth the notes of Viues on S. Austin For they haue omitted a great many things wherin Viues touched their Popes and Churches sores yet say they not so much Only they say that certaine things are omitted certaine as not many and errours they name them not neyther tell they what Now if the notes of Viues on S. Austin haue found such disfauour the censures of Erasmus on him may better beare it And to say the truth they haue deserued it at your handes For in those censures hath Erasmus shewed that many bookes doo falsely beare S. Austins name by which as by the warrant of S. Austins iudgement sundry of your Schoolemens and Canonists dreames haue bene aduanced and aided But he reiecteth some as counterfeit you say which Torrensis proueth to be S. Austins owne And what maruell is it if amongst hundreds he were deceiued in one or two And hauing had triall of many false titles he thought somefalse which were not A fish that hath béene touched once with the hooke is saide to feare the hooke vnder euery meate They who
the Spirit of truth and whether any of them were who can say We haue no assurance then of mysticall senses which may be mens fansies Onely the literall sense which is meant vndoubtedly by the holy Ghost is of force to proue the assured truth and therefore doth binde in matters of beliefe And this is so cléere that your owne Doctors acknowledge it and teach it euen he whom you alleaged For he saith It is agreed betweene you and vs that forcible aguments ought to be drawne onely from the literall sense and that is surely knowne to be the sense and meaning of the holy Ghost As for mystical senses it is not alwaies sure whether the holy Ghost meant them vnlesse they be expounded in the scriptures as that in Iohn you shall not breake a bone of him Which excepted it is a folly to go about to proue the pointes of faith forcibly by mysticall senses Wherefore if it be not expounded in the scriptures that the wordes of Christ touching one Pastor are meant as of him selfe by the literall sense so by the mystical of the Pope you sée that Father Robert saith it is a folly to go about to proue the Popes supremacie by them if you will proue it forcibly Now what I say of one Pastour the same I say of high Priest By whom the law of Moses doth signify the hye priest literally the epistle to the Hebrewes doth shew that mystically he betokened Christ. But that the Pope was meant by him in any sense eyther literall or mysticall I finde not in the scriptures Hart. But I find in the scriptures that Christians must stil haue a hye Priest amongst thē on earth to be their chief iudge Rainoldes Were finde you that Hart. In the seuentéenth chapter of the booke of Deuteronomie euen in these wordes If there rise a matter too hard for thee in iudgement betweene blood and blood betweene cause cause betweene plague and plague in the matters of controuersie within thy gates then shalt thou arise and goe vp to the place which the Lorde thy God shall choose and thou shalt come to the Leuiticall priestes and to the iudge that shall be in those dayes and aske and they shall shew thee the sentence of iudgement And thou shalt do according to that thing which they shall shewe thee from that place that the Lord shall choose and thou shalt obserue to do according to all that they shall enforme thee According to the law which they shall teach thee and according to the iudgement which they shall tell thee shalt thou doo Thou shalt not decline from the thing which they shall shew thee neither to the right hand nor to the left And he that shall presumptuously refuse to obey the commandement of the Priest who serueth then the Lord thy God by the decree of the iudge shall that man dye and thou shalt take away euil out of Israell Here the hye Priest is made the chiefe iudge to heare and determine hard and doubtfull causes amongst the people of God And who amongst Christians is such a Priest and iudge but the Pope onely Rainoldes Now the first chapter of the booke of Genesis would serue you as well to proue the Popes supremacie if it were considered For it is written there In the beginning God created the heauen and the earth Hart. What meane you so to say Rainoldes Nay aske that of him who doth expound it so saying that whosoeuer resisteth his supremacy resisteth Gods ordinance vnlesse he faine as Manichee did that there are two beginninges which is false hereticall because as Moses witnesseth not in the beginninges but in the beginning God created heauen and earth See in the beginning not in the beginninges and therefore not many are hye Priestes of the Church but the Pope onely Hart. The place which I alleaged doth plainely speake of the high Priest and so it doth serue my purpose more fitly then this which doth not touch him Howbeit as learned men when they haue proued a point by stronger arguments are wont to set it foorth with floorishes of lighter reasons rather to polishe it as it were then to worke it and frame it so the Pope hauing brought better euidence for proofe of his supremacie doth trimme it vp with this of Genesis as you would say by an allusion Rainoldes An illusion you should say But the places both as well this of Genesis as that of Deuteronomie are taken in a mysticall sense of your owne so that to winne a matter which must be wunne by sound proofe they are both of like force because that neyther is of any For the literall sense of that in Deuteronomie doth concerne the Iewes to whom the Lorde spake it by his seruant Moses Now how dangerous it is to buyld as vpon scripture thinges which are not grounded vpon the literal sense thereof we may learne by the mysticall sense of that place which a Pope giueth and no common Pope but Innocentius the third the Father of the Lateran-councel in which your popish Shrift and Transsubstantiation were enacted first He in a decretal which is enrolled in the canon law as a rule of the gouernemēt of the Church for euer doth bring foorth that same place of Deuteronomie to proue that the Pope may exercise tēporal iurisdiction not onely in his owne dominion but in other countries too on certaine causes And because Deuteronomi◠is the second lawe by interpretation it is proued saith he by the force of the worde that what is there decreed ought to be obserued in the newe Testament Upon the which principle he doth expound it thus that the place which the Lord hath chosen is Rome the Leuiticall Priestes are his brethren the Cardinals the iudge is himselfe the vicar of Christ the iudgements are of three sortes the firs◠betweene blood and blood is meant of criminall ciuil causes the last betweene plague and plague of ecclesiastical and criminall the midle betweene cause cause pertaineth vnto both ecclesiasticall ciuill In the which when any thing shal be hard or doubtfull recourse must be had to the iudgement of the See Apostolike that is of Rome whose determination if any man presumptuously refuse to obey he is adiudged to dye that is to be cut off as a dead man from the communion of the faithfull by excommunication Lo this is a mysticall sense of that place which you alleaged out of Deuteronomie It runneth verie roundly with the Popes supremacie But Christian States I hope will hold the literall sense against it For if they allow this doctrine of Pope Innocentius as catholike the Pope must be supreme head of all Christians both in ecclesiasticall causes and ciuill The mysterie of iniquitie did worke verie fast when the chiefest mysteries of the Romish faith were built vpon such mystical senses Hart. I
know that the misticall senses of the scripture are of no strength to conuince an aduersarie But the literall sense of that which I alleaged doth proue the point in question For there lyeth often times within the literall an other sense hidden which is not directly vttered and plainely but is gathered and inferred by the force of argument As for example God said to comfort Moses and the Israelites I am the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Iacob These wordes in the first sense doo signifie the couenant that God made with Abraham and with Abrahams seede whom hée chose to be his seruants and promised he would bée their God But Christ alleageth them to proue against the Sadduces the resurrectioÌ„ of the dead Which he doth conclude by consequeÌ„ce of reason God is not the God of the dead but of the liuing He is the God of Abraham Therefore Abraham is not dead Abraham is a man consisting of two partes the soule and the bodie If Abraham then liue and yet his bodie be dead his bodie must rise againe to the end that God may iustly be called the God not of Abrahams soule but of Abraham Wherefore in that God is called the God of Abraham it followeth by discourse that the bodies of men shall bée raysed from death to life Is not this reason conteined in the literall sense of the scripture from which it is deduced Rainoldes Yes and is of force to proue the point in controuersie For whatsoeuer followeth necessarily of the literall sense that is as true and sound as the sense whereof it followeth But how will you gather so the Popes supremacie from the place in Deuteronomie Hart. By a reason which I ground vpon the likenes and proportion of the Church of Christ to the children of Israell For if the Israelites had a high Priest to be their iudge in matters of difficultie and doubt betweene blood and blood betweene cause cause betweene plague and plague why should not we semblably haue a hie Priest to bée the iudge in our causes Rainoldes This reasoÌ„ is drawn from a similitude that as it was amongst the Iewes in the olde Testament so must it bée amongst Christians in the new Logicians say that similitudes do halt of one foote But this doth halt of both For neither was the high Priest amongst the Iewes iudge of all those matters nether doth it follow thereof although he had béene that amongst Christians there must a high priest bée likewise iudge of all Els it must be lawfull for all your priestes to marry For it was so amongst the Iewes And Masse must be be saide no where but at Rome For the Iewes might not sacrifice but in the place which the Lord had chosen And all the males amongst the Iewes must goe thither euery yeare thrise Which were ouermuch for all your males to Rome Yet must they doo it by your reason For it is written in Deuteronomie And because Deuteronomie is the second law by interpretation the force of the word proueth that what is there decreed ought to be obserued in the new Testament saith Pope Innocentius Hart. The condicion of Christians is not in all respectes like vnto the Iewes nor Rome vnto Ierusalem And why it is not like in the matters which you mention there may bée reasons giuen Rainoldes May there be reasons giuen Then reasons may be giuen why your reason is naught But that you may sée what a lame thing it is marke the pointes whereon it standeth First the high Priest you say is the iudge to whom for the deciding of hard and doubtfull controuersies the Lord doth send the Iewes This the scripture saith not but maketh a difference betwéene the iudge and the Priest For it giueth sentence of death vpon him who refuseth to harken to the Priest or to the iudge Wherein by disioyning the Priest from the iudge it declareth plainely that the Priest was not the same that the iudge Hart. Our commoÌ„ editioÌ„ in Latin doth not reade it so but in this sort he that shal presumptuously refuse to obey the coÌ„mandement of the Priest by the decree of the iudge shall that man die You sée it is here the commandement of the Priest the decree of the iudge is an other point It is not as you cite it the Priest or the iudge Rainoldes It is not so in your Latin which man hath translated But it is so in the Hebrew writen by the Spirite of God Hart. But we haue a decree of the Councell of Trent that our old and common edition in Latin shall be taken as authenticall in publike lectures disputations sermons and expositions and that no man may dare or presume to reiect it vnder any pretense If no man may reiect it vnder anye pretense then not vnder pretense of the Hebrew text And that for great reason For the Hebrewe Bibles which are extant now are shamefully corrupted in many places by the Iewes of spite and malice against Christians as Bishop Lindan sheweth largely and learnedly in the defense of that decrée of the TreÌ„t-councell Rainoldes This is a shamefull sclaunder brewed by Satan and set a broch by Lindan to the intent that errours which haue preuailed in Poperie either by the faulte of the Latin translator or by the ouer sighte of them who haue mistaken him should not be discouered and put to shame by the light of the Hebrew truth And this shall appeere by his arguments and dealings if you will sift them in particular If in generall onely you meane to vse his name to discredite the truth as your Doctor doth I will send both you and him for an answere to three of the learnedst and fittest iudges of this matter that your church hath euen Isaac Leuita Arias Montanus and Payua Andradius Of whom the first being Lindans owne maister and professor of the Hebrue tongue in the vniuersitie of Coolen hath writen three bookes in defense of the Hebrew truth against the cauils of his scholler The next for his rare skill of tongues and artes was put in trust by king Philip to set forth the Bible in Hebrew Chaldee Greeke and Latin wherein he hath reproued that treatise of Lindan and disclosed his folly The last was the chiefest of the Diuines and Doctors at the Councell of Trent The decrées wherof though he haue defended and namely that which you mention yet not so but he hath withall conâ—uted them who say that the Iewes haue corrupted the Hebrew text Your cause M. Hart beginneth to be desperate when it can finde no coouert but such as your owne patrones are ashamed off Hart. I haue not read thâ—se mens discourses But certainely what soeuer they say for the rest neither they nor you shall be euer able to proue that the Iewes haue not corrupted the Hebrew tâ—xt in the one and twentéeth Psalme or
reason by philosophie That Peter was appointed by Christ to be that one it hath some shew of scripture But that the Pope succéedeth Peter therein it hath no shew of scripture and I trow you will not proue it by philosophie Hart. That the Pope succéedeth Peter therein it is a cléere case For Eusebius writeth that Peter hauing laide the foundation of the Church of Antioche where he sate seauen yeares went to Rome preaching the gospell there fiue and twentie yeares continued Bishop of that citie Now the Pope is Bishop of Rome that you graunt Then I conclude thereof that he succedeth Peter For Peter continued Bishop of that citie as it is witnessed by Eusebius Rainoldes I desired that I might heare Thus saith the Lord and you told me that I should heare it In the first parte of your argument you fell from it to Thus saith the Pope In the next you mended it with Thus say Philosophers Now you proue the last by Thus saith Eusebius And this is more sightly somewhat then the former but no stay of faith without the word of God Hart. You ought not to cast off Eusebius so lightly as though he were of no credit For he is the best and auncientest historian of all that haue traueled in setting forth the stories of the Church of Christ. And the paines the diligence the reading and iudgement which in his Chronicle he shewed was great and wonderfull In so much that Canus is perswaded of him that no ecclesiastical Gréeke or Latin autor could haue left more excellent monuments of times Rainoldes I like of Eusebius as of a good historian and I allow the prayse giuen him by Canus But Canus hath a good conclusion withall touching both him and al historians to wéet that beside the writers of the scripture no historian can be sure that is to say able to make sure and certaine proofe in Diuinitie A thing so apparant and euident of it selfe that hée saith it is not to be confirmed with his proofes Onely he reherseth to the same effect a true pleasant spéeche of Flauius Vopiscus who beginning to write stories said that he enterprised it the more boldly because he should haue companions in lying sith he knew no historian that had not lyed in somewhat Now if this be incident vnto all historians except them of scripture who wrote by the Spirit of God and not of man then Eusebius also though a good historian might be subiect to it Which you must the rather be perswaded of him because Pope Gelasius in a Councell of seuentie Bishops reproued his storie as faultie Which reproofe your Canus alloweth as iust giueth reasons of it namely for his reporting of Christes epistle to Agbarus and his auouching many things by Clemens Alexandrinus wheras the fable of the one and the works of the other are reproued by the Councell Hart. These faultes and the rest that Canus doth touch are in the historie of Eusebius which yet not onely Canus but the Councell also commende as not to be refused altogither But that which I alleaged is in the Chronicle of Eusebius a booke neither noted so by the Councell and greatly praysed by Canus Rainoldes The man is one who wrote them both and might be ouerséene as in the one so in the other Yea Canus himselfe who praiseth his Chronicle yet praiseth it with this exception that neither all thinges which Eusebius there reporteth are true But men may find some thinges which may bee worthily and truely blamed As for example that he writeth that Sennacherib who besieged Ierusalem and Salmanassar who tooke Samaria were one and the same man Which thing to be contrarie to the holy scripture S. Ierom hath shewed Now this which I sticke at in the Chronicle of Eusebius is such an other ouersight and may be as worthily reproued as that of Canus because it is no lesse against the scripture then that For whereas he saith that Peter hauing laid the foundation of the Church of Antioche where he sate seuē yeares went to Rome preaching the Gospell there fiue and twentie yeares cōtinued Bishop of that city Peter by this account should haue gone to Antioche about the fourth yeare after Christs death and there abode seuen yeares euē till the second yeare of Claudius the Emperour in which he went to Rome But the scripture sheweth that Paule who was not presently conuerted after Christes death yet after three yeares found Peter at Ierusalē Peter after that abode within the coastes of Iewrie first at Lydda then at Ioppe then at Caesarea then at Ierusalem where Herode cast him into prison in the second or third yeare of Claudius as it is likely for he died in the fourth when the Church of Antioche was in the meane season both planted and watered by others not by Peter Wherefore the former braunch of that which Eusebius reporteth touching Peter that he had sate seuen yeares at Antioche in the second yeare of Claudius is flatly contrarie to the scripture The later is as contrary that from that yeare forward he did sit at Rome fiue and twentie yeares that is all his life time till he was put to death by Nero. For to graunt the vttermost which may haue any shew of reason admitt that he was cast by Herode into prison in the first yeare of Claudius before which he could not for Claudius gaue the kingdome of Iewry to Herode When the Angell had deliuered him out of prison he went into an other place whether to Rome or to Antioche or perhaps to neither the scripture leaueth it vncertaine but by the Chronicle of Eusebius either to Antioche or to Rome If he went to Antioche and there abode some yeares before he came to Rome then is the second yeare of Claudius past and his abode at Rome could not bee fiue and twentie yeares Now it is certaine that he went to Antioche at that time or some other For the scripture witnesseth that Paule did there reproue him But if that were some other time and from his prison in Ierusalem he went straight to Rome yet neither could he so be fiue and twentie yeares there For after hée came thither a time must be found wherein he was at Antioch and an other time wherin he was at Babylon an other time wherin he was at Ierusalem at the Councell of the Apostles and some yeares after that when Paule wrote to the Romans amongst the chiefe whom he saluted he named not Peter and some yeares after that when Paule came prisoner to Rome when he abode there certaine yeares when he wrote many epistles thence Peter is not mentioned nay those thinges are mentioned which would be staines of his Apostleship if he had béene at Rome For Paule saith of others these onely are
epistle is auncient translated out of Greeke into Latin by Rufinus who liued within foure hundred yeares after Christ. And this touching Linus the storie of whose succession you thinke disproâ—eth it was thought vpon then is answered by Rufinus For 〈◊〉 his preface to the booke entitled the recognitions of Clemens which he translated too some demaund saith he how when as Linus and Cletus were Bishops of Rome before Clemens himselfe in his epistle to Iames saith that the chaire of teaching was committed to him by Peter Whereof this is the reason as we haue heard that Linus and Cletus were in deed Bishops in Rome before Clemens but while Peter liued that they might haue the care of the Bishoply charge he might do the duety of the Apostleship As it is found that also he did at Caesarea where though being present himselfe yet he had a Bishop whom he had ordained namely Zachaeus And thus may eche of these things be thought to be true both that they were reckened Bishops before Clemens and Clemens neuertheles receiued the chaire of teaching after the death of Peter Rainoldes The auncientie of the epistle is no warrant for it but that it might be false and forged The epistles of Seneca to Paul of Paul to Seneca are no lesse auncient which yet haue nothing worthie of either Paul or Seneca There haue béene verie many misbegotten pamphlets wandring abroad euen from the time of the Apostles yea vnder the names of the Apostles themselues The lesse haue you to maruell if there were some miscreant who wrote in the name of Clemens to Iames. As for Rufinus who translated it if yet he did translate it and some haue not abused him as well as Clemens his iudgement was not such but he might be deceiued in a greater matter Which if you beléeue not on S. Ieroms credit because he was his aduersarie looke into these same workes that he translated and you shall perceiue it For the thinges writen in the Recognitions of Clemens which you mention sent to Iames also are the most of them vncertaine many fabulous yea and some hereticall as your selues confesse Yet Rufinus iudged it a hidden treasure of wisedome thought he had a bootie of it Againe in that epistle wherein Clemens maketh him selfe Peters successor he certifieth Iames that he sent him before by the commandement of Peter an other booke entitled the booke of Clemens touching thinges which Peter did in his iourney Now this iourney-booke hath béene so long so famously knowne for a roague that he hath not onely béene burnt through the â—are of olde by sundrie Fathers and Bishops in a Councell but also of late the college of Inquisitors at Rome haue enrolled him in the Register of bookes condemned by the Church Wherefore he was a counterfeit that set abroad these bastardes in the name of Clemens howsoeuer Rufinus thought them of simplicitie to be his owne whose they were named And with this perswasion was he moued to thinke on some probabilitie how that might be true which séemed false therein of Peters ordeining Clemens to be his successor when Linus and Cletus were Bishops before him The only shew whereof being a report receyued by tradition he was faine to take it for lacke of a better But he erred in it either not knowing or not considering times and stories For by his answere Linus and Cletus should be no longer Bishops then while Peter liued and when he dyed Clemens should succéede him next immediatly Whereas it is apparant by records of times that Linus continued Bishop eleuen yeares after Peters death and Cletus twelue after Linus before that Clemens had the roome Which albeit Turrian the Iesuite doâ— gnaw vpon as he is wont to make it away yet is the matter so manifest certaine that Genebrard the freshest of your Popish Chroniclers and passing all the rest as in skill so in zeale for the Popes causes could not but set it downe as true Hart. Yet he saith withall that Peter did nominate Clemens to succeede him But Clemens gaue the roome first to Linus and then to Cletus not so much of modestie as by the counsell of the Lord least the example of this nomination should passe to the posteritie and derogate from the free prouidence of the Church in choosing of her owne Bishop Rainoldes He saith so in deede But who séeth not that this was deuised to make stories agrée with the tale of Clemens and by the way to countenance the election of Popes which now the Cardinals vse For the booke of Ceremonies of the Church of Rome treating of that election affirmeth that Peter nominated Clemens to be his successour with this coÌ„dition it is thought if the Cardinals would admit him But they perceiuing that the forme of this nomination might greatly hurt the Church in processe of time did not accept of Clemens but did choose Linus and made him Pope after Peter Howbeit Clemens afterwarde was chosen by the Cardinals when Linus and Cletus were deceased Though Genebrard in â—â—â—ming the fansie to his purpose doth not so much follow the booke of the Ceremonies as the glose of the Canon law which with better care of the Popes credit saith that Pope Clemens him selfe renounced the Papacie considering that it would be an euill and pernicious thing for the example that any should choose his owne successour Into such follies do you 〈◊〉 your selues to say that the blessed Apostle of Christ S. Peter did ordeine that which was pernicious for the example refused by the Pope mislyked by the Cardinals preiudiciall to the Church and all to maintaine the epistle of Clemens with the tale in it that Peter made him his successour A thing so absurd that where it is mentioned in the Canon law there is it nâ—â—ed to â—e chaffe and Contius a learned lawier of your owne doth note vpon that note that it is counted chaffe worthily for it is all counterfeite and Comestor the autor of the scholastical historie who liued when the darkenes of Poperie was grossest refuteth and reiecteth it as a méere forgerie But whatsoeuer it â—e and hoâ— so euer auncient 〈◊〉 the same it may be which S. Ierom saith did beare the name of Clemens and was reproued by olde writers but be it what you wil you confesse your selfe that to be vntrue for proofe wherof you cited it that Clemens succeeded Peter and not Linus Wherefore séeing Linus did succéede Peter that while Peter liued in the same sort as Zachaeus did you say at Caesarea Euodius at Antioche the Bishops of Antioche of Caesarea may claime as well the Papacy by Peters succession as may the Bishop of Rome Hart. Yet by your owne graunt and the consent of histories Linus who succéeded him in Rome did out-liue him And therefore he was
or take infection at least from the fountaine being corrupted Now the fountaine as it were whence the rest haue drawne it is the sixth Councell And he saith that there the name of Honorius was thrust in amongst the names of other heretikes by malitious men of spite against the Pope Whereof hee bringeth two proofes One that Anastasius witnesseth it to haue bene so out of Theophanes An other that the Gréekes aduentured sometimes to corrupt bookes as the same Councell declareth by their practises Rainoldes The Councell declareth that there were some copies of a former Councell that had bene corrupted by heretikes among the Greekes But as euill dealing doth still leaue steppes behind it whereby it may be traced out their corruption was discouered both by circumstances of the thing and by the maner of writing and by conference with other copies Now in these places of the sixth Councell in which Honorius is touched you can shew no token of any such suspicion Nay the tokens all are cleere to the contrarie euen that which you alleage of the Greekes conuicted to haue corrupted bookes For if they had corrupted so much of the Councell in so many places it is very likely that they would haue also corrupted those places wherein they are noted and discredited for such corruptions Neither doth Anastasius report out of Theophanes that the Greekes did so Perhaps Father Robert did dreame out of Onuphrius that hee had said so But although Onuphrius say more in that point then truth did afford yet he saith not that As for Anastasius he is so farre from saying it that he gainesayeth it rather For in his storie of the Popes liues he setteth Honorius downe amongst the heretikes who were condemned by the sixth Councell The same is confirmed in an olde copie of the seuenth Councell which he translated out of Greeke and left it in the Popes librarie And at the eight Councell he was him selfe present and put it into Latin most diligently and faithfully there a Pope doth witnesse it To be short Torrensis addeth moreouer touching Anastasius that if he had suspected the Greekes to haue corrupted any of the places concerning this matter hee would haue giuen warning no doubt of it also as he hath done of other Wherfore though ill disposed men amongst the Greekes corrupted bookes sometimes yet the consent of copies chiefely of the Latin writen shortly after the time of the Councell laid vp at Rome the coherence of things the agreement of autours and circumstances of the storie doo make it very vnlikely that they dealt so with the sixth Councell in the matter of Honorius It were pitie that all euidences of men should be distrusted because there are some euidences falsified by euill men But Father Robert dealeth as Alexander the great who when he could not vndoo the knot of Gordius did cutte it a sunder with his sword Hart. Your knot of Honorius I wisse is not so hard but that he might vndoo it without this sword and he doth so For he sheweth that the epistles of Honorius to Sergius on which the sixth Councell adiudged him an heretike are both wisely writen and sound without errour Wherefore though we shoulde graunt that hee had sentence giuen against him by the Councell it foloweth not thereof that he was an heretike They might condemne him vniustly Rainoldes Take heede You were better let the knot alone then vndoo it so This medicine will do more harme then the disease In deede a great Cardinall on whom you relie much would play fast and loose with it in such sort vpon the spéech of Pope Adrian who saith that Honorius was cursed by the Bishops of the East after his death because he was accucused of heresie For hereupon he gathereth that Honorius was not an heretike while he liued nor cursed by the Pope or Bishops of the west But it foloweth straight in the spéech of Adrian which the Cardinall cut off that vnlesse the Pope had consented to it the Bishops of the east would not haue condemned him Moreouer the actes of the Councâ—ll shewe how Bishops of the west were also present and subscribed So that the sentence giuen against Honorius was giuen by the Councell and by the Pope him selfe not by the easterne Bishops only Wherfore if the epistles of Honorius were sound on which as vnsound he was condemned of heresie then a generall Councell confirmed by the Pope did erre in condemning him And if you graunt this as you must by consequent you betraye the strongest castell of Poperie to saue a captaines honour For men of iudgement will thinke that the doctrine of the reformed Churches may be sound for which as vnsound the Councell of Trent confirmed by the Pope hath condemned vs. They might condemne vs vniustly Hart. Not so For they examined and knew very perfitly the doctrine of the reformed Churches as you call them Rainoldes What And did the other condemne and curse the doctrine of Honorius a Pope and did they not examine and know it very perfitly Hart. If this do not stand with the Councels credit Father Robert maketh an other answere yet which may be liked better Namely that the epistles were perhaps counterfeited not writen by Honorius but by some heretike in his name And so might the Councell condemne the doctrine iustly but erre in the person Rainoldes Yet were this also a blemish of the Councell to condemne a Pope in steede of an heretike But they haue not deserued to be touched with it For the former epistle vpon the proofe whereof they did proceed to sentence they saw it conferred with the autheÌ„tical Latin copie found it to agrée Beside that the autor whom your selues alleage to cléere Honorius confessed it to be Honorius his owne and he confessed it then when the secretarie of Honorius who wrote it with his owne hand was aliue of good account and bare witnesse of it The later was approued to the Councel as the former though they stoode lesse about it as néeding lesse inquiry when he was now alreadie cast But it hath all presumptions for it so probable that not as much as Pighius could suspect it though he suspected the other Neither do I thinke that father Robert thought them in déede to be counterfeited But as a man that is in daunger of drowning doth snatch at euery bulrush to saue his life if it may be so he seing the Pope made subiect to heresie by the sixth generall Councell doth catch at euerie fansie whereby he hath some hope to helpe him The fansie of Pighius is that the Councell did not condemne Honorius the copies of it are corrupted Andradius checketh that and saith he was condemned but the Councell erred in condemning him as iudging him to erre who did not Torrensis varieth from them both and cometh in with a finer quirke to wéete that Pope Honorius did consent
lesser donation of Constantine which giueth Rome onely the other the greater which giueth Italie also with the countries of the west And whether of them is it that Genebrard defendeth Hart. Whether of them say you Or what skilleth that Rainoldes It skylleth very much For the lesser seemeth somewhat to discredit the report of the greater as it is obserued by one of the best witnesses that Genebrard hath I meane Nauclerus Who hauing shewed that Constantine left Italie and other kingdomes of the west to his sonnes by testament and therefore it is likely that the decree which saith he gaue them to the Pope is chaffe as the lawiers call it and proueth nothing whereto saith he the decretall maketh not a little which treating of Constantines donation speaketh onely of the donation of the citie of Rome making no mention of Italie and other prouinces But whether this report of the lesser in the decretals discredit the greater in the decrees or no the greater is so brainlesse in the eyes of all men that haue sense and reason that not your historians onely doo nippe it as Otho Frisingensis and Platina and Krantzius but also Dâ—ctors and Diuines as Cardinall Cusanus and Hieronymus Paulus and Laurentius Valla yea Pope Pius himselfe haue writen purposely he would defend the lesser For he saith that Constantine did giue Rome to Syluester Rome that is the citie and not all the westerne Empire of Rome Hart. His wordes indéede doo séeme so and I thinke he meant not to defend the greater Rainoldes Thinke Nay you may be sure that he meant not For in the same place vpon the wordes that you rehearsed I saith he haue alwaies denied this consequence Somewhat is forged and added to the donation of Constantine therfore al is forged For it is certaine that Constantine gaue many thinges to the Church of Rome but more thinges a great deale haue come vnto it other whence either by the giftes of Princes and rich men or by the testament of the godly or by the purchasing of Popes by exchange and so forth and the dispensation and prouidence of God So that in Genebrards iudgement Pope Syluester and his successors haue gotten a great deale more by other meanes then by Constantines donation But they haue not gotten more then the greater donation of Constantine in the decrees doth giue them For it doth giue them all the prouinces places and cities of Italie and other countries of the west In Genebrards iudgement therefore the greater donation of Constantine is forged and that which he defendeth must be the lesser onely Hart. The lesser onely be it What gather you thereoff Rainoldes I gather that Genebrard dealeth like himselfe when he saith that Constantines donation is proued by Photius the Greeke Patriarke and Eugubinus in two bookes For Eugubinus writeth in defense of the greater donation of Constantine auouching that he gaue not the citie of Rome alone vnto the Pope no nor the countrie of Italie but the whole West euen the Westerne Empire in so much that he nameth particularly the kingdomes of England of Fraunce of Spaine of Aragon of Portugall of Denmarke of Norway Swethland Boheme Hungarie Dacia Rustia Croatia Dalmatia Sardinia and Corsica and saith that they are all subiect to the Pope by right of that donation As for the Patriarke Photius he speaketh not a word of any donation That which Genebrard meaneth is in one Balsamon commenting on Photius and it is the same that Eugubinus writeth for What thinke you now of him who saith that Eugubinus and Photius the Greeke Patriarke do manifestly proue that donation to be true which himselfe confesseth to be false and forged Hart. But the next writer whom he alleageth namely Zosimus is fitter for his purpose as speaking of the lesser donation precisely For Constantine saith he departed out of Rome and remoued thence the maiestie of the Empire to Constantinople because he knewe himselfe to be misliked of the Romans for altering of religion Rainoldes What Doth this proue that Constantine gaue the citie of Rome vnto the Pope because he departed from Rome to Constantinople Hart. As Genebrard concludeth of it For he departed to whom Not to the Senate not to the people for that hath no man writen Neither did the Senate or people euer claime it To the Pope therefore who sith that time possesseth and keepeth it as his owne hath olde recordes and euidences and reuenues of it Rainoldes The wit of a Sophister As if a man should say king Henrie departed from the citie of London vnto Windsore castle and remoued the Court thither He departed to whom Not to the Aldermen not to the Citizens for no man saith so Neither did the Aldermen or Citizens euer claime it To the Bishop therefore who sith that time possesseth and kéepeth it as his owne hath old recordes and euidences and reuenues of it Hart. Nay that is a lye that the Bishop of London possesseth the citie as his own sith that time Rainoldes Euen so is the other For the Emperours possessed Rome foure hundred yeares after the time that Constantine departed to Constantinople as your own Sigonius sheweth in his stories Hart. But king Henrie gouerned still the citie of London by the Lord Mayor as Princes haue béene wont to doo Rainoldes So the Emperours gouerned too the citie of Rome by a Lord Deputie Yea Genebrard might easily haue found in his Zosimus the one of those Deputies tooke vpon him to be Emperour If he could shew by Zosimus that a Pope had done so what a proofe were that of Constantines donation Hart. The Popes enioyed not a while the full power yet had they right vnto it Howbeit Ammianus Marcellinus sheweth they had the power too as Genebrard declareth after But first he confirmeth their right out of S. Damasus Rainoldes Out of Damasus How Hart. S. Damasus who saw Constantine hath writen of that donation as euen the Centurie-writers affirme in the seuenth chapter of the fourth Centurie Rainoldes Two lyes with one breath For neither hath Damasus writen of it nor doo the Centurie-writers affirme that he hath Nay they affirme the contrarie For in the very place that Genebrard alleageth they say that neither historians haue made mention of it such as are Eusebius Eutropius Rufinus Socrates Theodoret Euagrius Paulus Diaconus Beda Orosius Zonaras Nicephorus and the like nor they who wrote the liues of Emperours or of Popes as Ierom and Damasus though yet he speaketh somewhat of thinges giuen by Constantine nor other famous Doctors whose monuments are extant as Athanasius Basil Ambrose Optatus Gregorie Nyssen Gregorie Nazianzene Austin and Chrysostome nor the Popes themselues when they were to proue their supremacie in Councels did speake a word of that donation which they would then haue cast forth as shipmen do the sacred ancre in great perill Hart. The wordes
to the Emperour by whom hee had the Popedom restored to the Empire the things which either Constantine or Charles gaue vnto the Church or Iustinian confirmed before him or Arithpert the Lombard king bestowed on it Now we haue set doune before out of Krantzius in the tenth chapter of the fourth booke of his storie of Saxonie the copie of the letters by which Leo restored them Thus farre the Centurie-writers Wherein first they speake not of Constantines donation either the greater or the lesser but in generall onely of thinges that he gaue Which might be other thinges and not the citie of Rome Secondly they say not the thinges which he gaue and Charles did confirme but the thinges which either he or Charles gaue that it might be Charles donation and not his for any thing that they say Thirdly their very wordes are the wordes of Krantzius whom they alleage and quote and Krantzius doth speake them by way of a iest For neither is Constantine named in the letters in which he saith that thankfulnes is shewed by Pope Leo and vpon the letters he frameth a reproofe of Constantines donation So that to proue it by those wordes of Krantzius is as if the Pharisees should proue their traditions by that spéech of Christ Wel doo ye reiect the commandements of God that ye may obserue your owne tradition Fourthly the Centurie-writers doo not as much as mention either Lewes or Pipine neither here nor after where they mention Otho Finally not one of all that are mentioned is reported by them to haue confirmed that donation No not Iustinian of whom the shew is greatest as Genebrard doth cite their wordes that he confirmed it after a hundred yeares Hart. Yet their owne wordes are that Iustinian confirmed thinges vnto the church Rainoldes And so Iustinian did For his constitution which Genebrard alleageth out of his Authentikes that the Church of Rome should enioy the prescription of a hundred yeares hath this force that whereas thirtie yeares prescription did hold against the landes and possessions of others in actions and suites of law no lesse then a hundred should hold against the landes and possessions of others in actions and suites of law no lesse then a hundred should holde against the landes and possessions of the Church Though the Centurie-writers meant by confirming the assuring of those thinges that any way came from Iustinian as appéereth by the letters which they referre them selues vnto But Genebrard doth take the aduantage of the word and helpeth it with adding a hundred yeares after which fitteth some what roundly the time that Iustinian raigned after Constantine to the intent that the terme of a hundred yeares in Iustinians constitution might be thought to haue respect to Constantines donation In the which dealing he doth notorious iniurie not onely to them but to Iustinian also To Iustinian by laying on him a lewde sclaunder that he did confirme yea confirme by law a surmised donation deuised against all law To them by putting wordes of falsehood in their mouth nor making them onely false witnesses but also foolish as if they had thought a thing to be confirmed by that constitution whereof the constitution hath no word at all And as it were to fill vp the measure of his iniquitie he addeth that they report it vsing those very wordes to perswade the credulous thereby as hee hath you that Constantines donation cannot be doubted of sith it was confirmed by the Emperour Iustinian a hundred yeares after as our owne men in their Centuries doo graunt Hart. Perhaps there is some other place in Iustinian that maketh proofe of it For while I perused the Tables of that booke of the Authentikes which was lent me to serch out this in I was thereby directed to a place in Iustinian where Constantines donation is proued most plainely to weete in gloss sing secundum Bald in l. 2. § Cum vrbem ff de offic praefect vrbis Rainoldes It is not plainely proued there but barely said and said not in the text but in the glose onely nor in the glose vpon Iustinian but the Digests and that without all ground either of any autour of the Digests or of Iustinian Hart. But in the glose vpon Iustinian himselfe euen in the Authentikes there is an other place where the same question is handled pro and con and there although he say that Constantine could make no such donation de iure yet he denyeth not but that he made it de facto Rainoldes Yet he denyeth not and he affirmeth not but leaueth it as he found it Why do you trifle so with the glose-writer Who though hee had affirmed the donation of Constantine doth that proue the point auouched by Genebrard that Iustinian confirmed it If I had thought that you would make such account of the wordes of lawiers I could haue alleaged men skilfuller of antiquities then all the glose-writers against that tale of Constantine For not onely such as Carolus Molinaeus whom you may perhaps suspect for his religion do write against it and discredite it but also that worthy and most learned lawier Andreas Alciatus disproueth it by Eusebius Theodoret Cassiodore Ammianus Marcellinus and the consent of all historians and Remundus Rufus in his defense of the Pope against Molinaeus which Sanders prayseth greatly doth allow the same that Alciatus writeth of it But whatsoeuer lawiers thinke of the donation either for the fact or for the right of it you sée that it is not confirmed by Iustinian as you are borne in hand Hart. Yes I make no doubt but Genebrard is able to bring more for him selfe herein then I haue seene or can finde in Iustinian Rainoldes Neither make I doubt but if he could haue brought more his ten-yeares studie spent vpon his Chronicles would haue interlaced it Inthe meane season whether he bée able to bring more or no you cannot deny but he hath alleaged Iustinian vntruely for that which he hath brought Hart. But the rest of the writers whom he doth alleage no doubt he doth alleage them truely S. Gregorie S. Isidore Nauclerus Photius Nicephorus S. Ierom Iuo Gratian Picernus Rabbi Abraham and Aben Ezra Rainoldes He doth alleage them truely I graunt the most of them But doo they proue the point for which he doth alleage them Hart. Yea and that directly as by his wordes you shall perceiue S. Gregorie about the sixe hundreth yeare of Christ doth shew in his epistles that the Church had ample landes and possessions farre and wide through the west At the which time S. Isidore in his storie as Nauclerus citeth in the eleuenth age of his Chronicles Constantine saith he did yeelde the citie to the Pope and the imperiall ornaments that is to say the crown and the white palfrey on the which he rode Altogither as Photius of Constantinople though otherwise an enimie of the See
you graunt at least that the Bishop of Rome cannot erre in faith by S. Ieroms iudgement Rainoldes Or at least you take it though neither I doo graunt it nor is it proued by S. Ierom. But this is proued and I grant it that he did not erre in the faith of the Trinitie when Damasus was Bishop of Rome Hart. When Damasus was Bishop Why do you so restraine it S. Ieroms wordes be generall I am ioyned in communion vnto your holinesse that is to Peters chaire I know that the Church is builded vpon that rocke Behold to Peters chaire He speaketh not to Damasus as in respect of Damasus but in respect of the chaire and so of the succession of the Bishops of Rome that what hee saith to one belongeth to them all Rainoldes If you set his wordes vpon such tenters they will neuer hold For him selfe reporteth that the next Bishop of Rome before Damasus Liberius by name subscribed to the Arian heresie Hart. S. Ierom reporteth so but he might be deceiued by some misreporte For he could say nothing more of that matter then what he had by heare-say Rainoldes But seing that hee liued so néere to that time and in the same place and loued the Sée of Rome and yet doth report this matter of Liberius and report it constantly not onely in his booke of Ecclesiasticall writers but in his Chronicle also it is more likely that hee did both know and testifie the truth then Pontacus who maketh your exception against him or any man that liueth now Hart. Why will not you credit a man that liueth now in any thing against S. Ierom Rainoldes Yes if he bring me good reason to disproue him Hart. And Pontacus doth so For he sheweth that Basil Ambrose and Epiphanius do call Liberius a blessed man and that Athanasius doth frée him from the spot of Arianisme Rainoldes Basil Ambrose and Epiphanius do call Liberius a blessed man What Therefore he subscribed not to the Arian heresie Then you may say that Peter did not deny Christ. For Basil Ambrose and Epiphanius doo call Peter a blessed man They are blessed who repent them selues of their sinnes as Peter did of his denyall and so might Liberius doo of his subscription As for Athanasius though hee say that Liberius condemned the heresie of the Arians and therefore suffered banishment yet hee saith withall that hee continued not in suffering banishment to the end but through feare of death subscribed to that heresie with his hand though with his heart he were still against it Thus euen Athanasius who liued at the same time with Liberius and knew his state well acknowledgeth that he subscribed though iudging most friendly both for his owne sake and the causes that he consented not But Damasus Bishop of Rome who succéeded Liberius and might know the matter better then Athanasius doth write that Liberius did consent also to Constantius the Arian Hart. Although this be writen in the booke of Damasus yet it is not likely that Damasus wrote it For Carranza noteth that there are many who dout of that storie And Onuphrius a man verie skilfull of antiquities chiefly of the Roman discrediteth both the report and the autour of it saying that Anastasius the keeper of the Popes librarie was as hee thinketh the first who beleeued it and thrust it into the booke of Damasus as many other thinges besides Rainoldes What Anastasius did I know not But if he stuffed Damasus with any thing of his owne it was belike in such thinges rather as aduance then empeach the Popes credit Howbeit if Onuphrius in that he denyeth Liberius was an Arian doo meane that he subscribed not to the Arian heresie and that this report came first from Anastasius what answereth hee then to Ierom and Athanasius and Sozomen and Marcellinus in effect too who wrote it all with one consent the youngest of them a hundred yeares before Anastasius was borne As for Carranzas note that there are many who doubt of that storie hee must shew who they be and what groundes of dout they haue Or els those many may be such as himselfe and Onuphrius whose doubting may not preiudice the credit of historians that wrote a thousand yeares before them Chiefly if they haue no surer groundes then Carranza who to disproue the storie alleageth that Liberius wrote one epistle to Athanaâ—ius and the Bishops of Aegypt against the Arians and another to all Bishops exhorting them to constancie Which reasons are so poore that your owne Iouerius a Paris Doctour of Diuinitie rehersing them by occasion hath withall refuted them But sée to what miserable shiftes you are driuen to vphold the pride of the man of Rome Because it were a staine vnto his supremacie if his predecessour Liberius subscribed against the Catholike faith therefore you rather choose to deny it and how First the autoritie of Ierom is alleaged affirming it in his Chronicle Your Pighius doth answere that some hath interlaced those wordes into his Chronicle through ignorance or fraude When this answere séemed hard because Ierom hath other where affirmed it also your Pontacus to helpe it replieth that Ierom could say nought thereof but what he had by heare-say When proofe of this heare-say is made out of Damasus your Onuphrius supposeth him to be corrupted by Anastasius the keeper of the Popes librarie When Sozomen a Gréeke writer confirmeth Damasus and Ierom Your Christophorson who translateth him doth make him hold his peace or rather witnesse to the contrary For where he saith in his owne tongue that the Emperour compelled Liberius to subscribe he saith by your translâ—tor the Emperour assayed to compel him And where he saith in his owne tongue that certaine Arian Bishops procured him to consent he saith by your translator they endeuored that he should consent When farder Marcellinus is found to agrée with Sozomens report your Genebrard séeing Ierom approued by them both doth raze out that of Pontaâ—us that Ierom could say nought thereof but by heare-say and doth assalt him with the Fathers Wherein besides them whom you alleaged out of Pontacus he citeth Socrates and Theodoret Socrates declaring that Liberius was no Arian in the time of Valens the Emperour as though this were a proofe that hee subscribed not to the Arian heresie in the time of Constantius Theodoret auouching that the west was alwayes free form Arianisme which is lesse to the purpose Theodoret speaking generally as for the most part and in respect of the East by way of comparison For himselfe had shewed before that Auxentius a westerne Bishop was an Arian Now for Athanasius who is the most auncient witnesse of this matter and of such valure that your Andradius could not but yéeld himselfe vnto him yet Genebrard Pontacus thought it good policie to name him as gainesaying
to winne you to the truth doo bring you the confessions of your own men who witnesse a truth Hart. A truth Why will you graunt vs that the Popes supremacie came in by tradition if we will graunt you that it can not be proued by scripture Rainoldes By tradition I if you meane tradition as S. Peter doth where he teacheth Christians that they are redeemed from their vaine conuersation of the tradition of their Fathers Hart. You are disposed to play with your owne fansies You know my meaning well enough Will you graunt that it came in by tradition of the Apostles Rainoldes I should play in déede with your owne fansies if I should graunt you that Hart. But they whom you alleaged doo say that it did so as your selfe haue shewed Rainoldes But I will proue that they spake no truer in that then you haue doone in the other Hart. But what an iniurie is this to presse mee with their former wordes of the scripture whereas your selfe beleeue not the later of tradition Rainoldes What thinke you of S. Paule Did hee beleeue those thinges which the heathnish Poets do write of Goddes and Goddesses Bacchus Diana Minerua Mercurie Hart. He did not What then Rainoldes Yet he alleaged them to perswade the Athenians that in God we liue and moue and haue our being What an iniury was that to presse the Athenians with Poets words of God whereas himselfe beléeued not their wordes of Gods and Goddesses Hart. The Poets might say well and did in the former though in the later they missed Rainoldes Now wil you deale as frendly with me as with S. Paule His case and mine are coosins Hart. Nay you in the selfe same sentence of our men cull out a péece of it and yet an other péece of it you allow not Rainoldes Euen so did S. Paule For that which he auouched out of their owne Poets the meaning of it is in sundry the very wordes in Aratus they spake it of Iupiter who was a wicked man but thought of them to be God S. Paule allowing not their error in the person culled out their sentence concerning the thing and proued a truth by it Hart. Well if you may diuide the sentence of Canus and other sort then I haue done Rainoldes That I wish For the truth is like vnto camomill the more you presse it down the faster it groweth and spreadeth fairer and smelleth sweeter Hart. So much of scripture then Now to tradition by which the Popes supremacie may be cléerely proued Rainoldes By tradition Why Do you acknowlege then that it cannot be proued by scripture Hart. I tell you no once againe How often must I say it Rainoldes Once saying will serue if you do not vnsay your saying But here in my iudgement you séeme to vnsay it For you disclaime the title pretended by scripture when you claime by tradition Hart. Why so Might not the same thing both be writen in scripture and deliuered by word of mouth Rainoldes It might was no dout as the traditions shew which S. Paule doth mention which signify the doctrine that hee deliuered out of the scriptures But you meane a doctrine not writen in the scriptures when you speake of tradition For you doo imagin that the gospell of Christ is partly contained in writen bookes that is the scriptures partly in vnwriten things that is traditions as the Iewish Rabbines do say that God by Moses deliuered not only the law that is writen but also an vnwriten law which they call Cabala Hart. Sée as the Iewish Rabbines You haue inured your mouth to such venemous spéeches· Rainoldes Beware or els through my side you will wound your freend For Bishop Peresius your chiefest patrone of traditions doth proue them solemnly by this point of the Iewish Rabbins and the Cabala Neither is the proofe vnfit if it be weighed For as they pretend this ground for the Cabala that it openeth the hidden meaning of the scriptures so do you for traditions And as they in processe of time brought in doctrine contrarie to the scriptures vnder pretense of traditions so do you with your Cabala And as Cabalists among the Iewes do call them scripture-men by way of reproch who cast off traditions and cleaue to scriptures only so doo traditionists among you reproch vs with the same terme Yea Lindan and Prateolus doo note it for a speciall heresie But to leaue this venemous spéech it is manifest that you renounce the scripture for proofe of any title which you lay claime to by tradition For scripture is writen tradition vnwriten Wherefore if by tradition you minde to proue the Popes supremacie you must acknowlege first that it cannot be proued by scripture If you bee not willing to ackonwlege that I must debarre you from tradition Hart. Then I will proue it by the Fathers Rainoldes Nay that you shall not neither vnlesse you will forgo the scripture Hart. And why so I pray Rainoldes Because they say forsooth that it is held by tradition So that their euidences make against you if scripture be your plea for it Hart. That is very false For by the words Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke in the sixtéenth of Matthew the first Popes of Rome most holy martyrs haue proued it Anacletus Alexander the first Pius the first Victor Zepherinus Marcellus Eusebius Melchiades Iulius Damasus and likewise others by other places as D. Stapleton alleageth farther Wherefore that the Fathers tooke it as you say to be held by tradition it is a flat lye Rainoldes Say you so Then Canus and Father Robert do lye flatly but that is no maruell who grounding it both on tradition the one doth cite for witnesses thereof the first Popes of Rome most holy martyrs Anacletus Sixtus the first Eleutherius Victor Sixtus the second Zepherinus Marcellus Melchiades Marcus Iulius the other not contenting himselfe with particulars doth alleage in grosse fâ—â—st the generall Councels next the Popes and last the Fathers Hart. Yet more of Canus and Father Robert I take not their defense vpon me and why againe doo you tell me of them Rainoldes That you may sée how the Lord doth sheath the swordes of Madianites in their own sides to the confusion of them who pitch their campe against Israel For the same Popes which are alleaged by Canus to prooue that their supremacie is an vnwritten truth the verie same Popes are alleaged by Stapleton to prooue that it is writen euen Anacletus Victor Zepherinus Marcellus Melchiades and Iulius Yea and that is more the very same epistles of theirs are alleaged by Stapleton which by Canus If rightly by Canus how may we trust Stapleton If rightly by Stapleton how may wee trust Canus If rightly by them both what trimme Popes are they who with one
If any man preach vnto you more then you haue receyued but beside that you haue receyued For if he should say that he should be preiudiciall to him selfe who desired to come to the Thessalonians that he might supply that which was wanting to their faith Now he that supplyeth addeth that which was wanting taketh not away that which was and so forth Whereby S. Austin sheweth that we may preach more then the scripture hath but not beside it that is to say against it Rainoldes He sheweth nothing lesse as any man that readeth his discourse may see For that which he speaketh of more and of wanting is not meant of scripture that is the worde writen but of the worde preached deliuered by mouth Wherein he declareth that the Apostles maner of instructing men was to feede them first with milke not with strong meat So that which was wanting to the Thessalonians was stronger doctrine of the faith that which they had was easier Wherof though in the one he taught them more then in the other yet no more in either then the scripture hath And thus S. Austins more to be no more then scripture himselfe maketh manifest by the example also which he giueth of it For the doctrine of the manhead of Christ he calleth milke of the Godhead strong meat Now they who are taught to know him to be God learne more then they had learned when they receaued him as man But they learne no more then the scripture hath which teacheth him both God and man Wherefore that S. Austin condemning all who preach ought beside the scriptures of the law the gospell meant that more then scriptures may be preached but nought against them it is not S Austins glose but your Louanists and in truth repugnant to S. Austins text For in the same place S. Austin making mention how the Donatists hated him for preaching of the truth and confuting their heresie as though saith he we had commanded the Prophets and Apostles who were so long before vs that they in their bookes should set downe no testimonies whereby the Donatists might be proued to be the church of Christ. Which words doo shew plainly that as by the scriptures of the law the gospel he signified the bookes of the Prophetes Apostles so by condemning all that is beside the scriptures he meant not all that is against but all that is not in the scriptures And that this was his meaning he sheweth yet more plainely by willing them to proue their doctrine by the testament which your Louan Doctors the greater shame for them to wrest S. Austins wordes against his sense doo note also For as amongst men the testament doth open the will of the testaâ—or so did S. Austin thinke that the controuersie betwixt the Donatists and the Church should be decided by the Scriptures which Christ hath left to Christians as his will and testament For Christ hath dealt with vs as an earthly Father is wont with his children who fearing least they should fall out after his decease doth set downe his will in writing vnder witnesses if there arise debate amongst the brethren they go to the testament He whose word must end our controuersie is Christ. Let his wil be sought in his testament saith Optatus Which reason of Optatus S. Austin vrging against the Donatists as he doth other often we are brethreÌ„ saith he to them why doo we striue Our father died not vntestate he made a testament so died Men do striue about the goods of the dead till the testament be brought foorth when that is brought they yeeld to haue it opened read The iudge doth hearken the counsellours be silent the cryer biddeth peace all the people is attentiue that the wordes of the dead man may be read heard He lyeth voide of life feeling in his graue and his words preuaile Christ doth sit in heauen and is his testament gainesaied Open it let vs reade we are brethren why do we striue Let our mindes be pacified Our father hath not left vs without a testament He that made the testament is liuing for euer He doth heare our words he doth know his owne word Let vs reade why doo we striue Were not this a séely spéech of S. Austin if hee had meant as you say that all the Lords will is not declared in his testament that thinges beside his owne worde may be proued by mens words Let him be accursed who preacheth any point of faith or life beside the scriptures True beside the scriptures that is against the scriptures say your Louan Doctours Sée what skil can doo If they were Doctours of the Arches we should haue ioly law For a coosining marchant might claime a thousand pound of a dead mans goods who had bequeathed him a legacy of tweÌ„tie grotes they might adiudge it him with good consciences as not against the testament though beside the testament Nay they might do this with so much better reason then they doo the other by how much the testament of God is more perfit theÌ„ any mans can be and that which Christ bequeathed the Pope is farre lesse in comparison of the supremacie then twentie grotes of a thousand poundes Wherfore say the Doctors of Louan what they liâ—t perhaps they speake for their fée S. Austin meant plainely that sith the Donatists claimed the inheritaunce of Christ to them selues they must proue their title by his will and testament Which if they could not doo or rather séeing that they could not he pronounceth of them they had no right vnto it And thereupon he commeth to the generall sentence of the heauenly iudge denouncing them accursed who in any point either of faith or life doo preach beside that which is deliuered in the scriptures of the law and the gospel Wherein if beside do signifie against then all in this respect is against a testament which is beside a testament Hart. S. Austin and Optatus against the Donatists doo speake reason that vnlesse they can proue their right by Christes testament they may not shut the Catholikes out from his inheritance and claime his goods vnto them selues For it is meete that the will of the testator should be kept But a learned lawier one Francis Baldwin who hath set foorth Optatus and writen notes vpon him doth shew that a testament may be either nuncupatiuum as he calleth it or scriptum either set down in writing or vttered by word of mouth What say you to testamentum nuncupatiuum Rainoldes I graunt that a testament may be made without writing so that it be done before a solemne number of witnesses But the testament of Christ is writen I hope and so doo both Optatus and Austin speake of it Wherefore your learned Lawier may kéepe that law in stâ—re vntill his client néede it Hart. As who say the testament of Christ might not be writen in part though
not in whole Which is Baldwins meaning as it appéereth by the place not of Optatus but of Austin whereto he applieth it Rainoldes But if Baldwin meant so Baldwin should haue remembred that a testament so made is not testamentum nuncupatiuum for that is vnwriten as the very rudiments of the law might teach him but imperfectum rather though writen yet vnperfit And I trust you will not say that the testament of Christ is vnperfit Sure Optatus would not Hart. Nor I sir though you would faine imply as though I said so For if Christ would haue his will in part writen in part deliuered by word of mouth ioyne them both togither they make a perfit testament Rainoldes Then the writen testament of Christ is vnperfit It will be gay and perfit with your traditions patched to it But Optatus thought that his writen testament is perfit of it selfe Which shaketh all the frame of Popery in péeces And this is that Optatus of whom S. Austin speaketh as of a worthy Catholike Bishop equall to Ambrose and Cyprian of whom Fulgentius speaketh as of a holy faithfull interpretor of Paule like to Austin and Ambrose of whom your great Champion doth vaunt so gloriously that he nor he onely but the rest of the Fathers are of your religion as surely and fully as the Pope himselfe Pope Gregorie the thirteenth whereas in very truth not one of them is so For Gregorie the thirteenth is of your religioÌ„ in the Popes supremacie the chiefest point of Poperie as his rules of Chancery for reâ—eru ations and prouisions his accursing of all that appeale from Popes to Councels his bulles against decrees of Councels both prouinciall and generall doo shew From which abomination how farre the Fathers were it shall appéere when you alleage them But Optatus is so plaine against your religion in the point of scriptures and their sufficiencie to decide all controuersies that your chalenger if he read him and not beleeued common-place-bookes of Canisius and other broakers might haue blushed to boast of him For those things which he citeth out of Optatus do not as much as rase the skinne of our religion though they séeme to weake eye sightes But this of scriptures onely doth breake the necke of yours and it is so cléerely the iudgement of Optatus that your owne Baldwin in his Annotations is faine to say of him he vsed that comparison of a testament not so warily Hart. Not so warily as Austin doth For Austin vseth it when he will proue out of the scriptures that the Church is catholike which was one of the pointes of their controuersie with the Donatists Rainoldes But in handling that point he maketh it a generall rule that whether it be of Christ or of his church or of any thing else whatsoeuer pertaining to our faith and life nothing must be preached beside the scriptures that is the testament Hart. But in an other point of their controuersie touching baptisme S. Austin doth alleage not so much the scripture as the tradition of the Apostles Rainoldes Not so much the scripture He doth the scripture then though he alleageth also the custome of the Church deliuered by the Apostles But what is that against the testament Hart. Nay beside the testament which is the word writen he doth commend vnwriten traditions in other places Which proueth that he thought not the testament sufficient to decide all controuersies Rainoldes Now S. Austin findeth fauour at your hands who make him say and vnsay the same But where vnsaith hée that of the sufficiencie of scripture Hart. You may sée in the Augustinian confession of Torrensis in the chapter of Traditions Rainoldes But I would sée it in S. Austin Torrensis is a Iesuit whom we haue taken oft in lyes I cannot trust him Hart. Why He alleageth S. Austins owne wordes As in the first place which bringeth in S. Cyprian too Quod autem nos admonet Cyprianus vt ad fontem recâ—rramus id est Apostolicam traditionem inde canalem in nostra tempora dirigamus optimum est sine dubitatione faciendum That is to say whereas Cyprian warneth vs that we should go to the coondit head which is the tradition of the Apostles and thence direct the pipe to our owne times that is best and to be done out of all dout These are S. Austins owne wordes Rainoldes S. Austins owne wordes in déede But what doth folow in S. Austin Traditum est ergo nobis sicut ipse commemorat ab Apostolis quòd sit vnus deus Christus vnus vna spes fides vna vna ecclesia baptisma vnum That is to say It is deliuered therefore to vs by the Apostles as Cyprian himselfe rehearseth that there is one God and one Christ and one hope and one faith and one church and one baptisme These are S. Austins owne wordes and grounded on S. Cyprian too So that he and Cyprian meant by tradition that which is deliuered and that to be deliuered which is writen in the scriptures For this selfe same thing whereof they speake is writen in the epistle of Paule to the Ephesians Wherefore their traditioÌ„ is tradition writen that is to say scripture and not vnwriten stuffe as your Iesuit would haue it Yea Cyprian is so plaine for controuersies to be decided by this tradition onely that in the same epistle whence Austin citeth this to the words of Stephanus Traditum est it is deliuered vnde est ista traditio faith he whence is this tradition Doth it come from the authoritie of the Lord and the gospell or from the commaundements and epistles of the Apostles For that we must doo those things which are writen God doth witnesse saying to Ioshua Let not this booke of the law depart out of thy mouth but meditate in it day and night that thou maiest obserue to performe all thinges which are writen therein And likewise the Lorde sending his Apostles willed them that the nations should bee baptized and taught to obserue all things which he had commaunded Wherefore if this thing of the which Stephanus saith it is deliuered be commaunded in the gospell or contained in the epistles or actes of the Apostles let this diuine and holy tradition be obserued Sée you not how Cyprian thought that all which Christ commanded to be taught is writen How hee meant this writen doctrine by tradition How his words of this tradition are approued by Austin What conscience had your Iesuit to alleage that for traditions beside scriptures which they so plainely meant of the scriptures them selues Hart. I do not sée this neither in S. Austin nor in S. Cyprian Rainoldes I am the soryer that your sight serueth you no better For the thing is so cléere that your owne Pamelius declareth that Cyprian meant the holy scriptures there by tradition Hart. Yet Pamelius addeth that if
which they did gather of those wordes then might we know the times whereof our Sauiour saith that it is not for man to knowe them And vpon this reason S. Austin doth reproue that fansie of sixe thousand yeares as rash and presumptuous Hart. So doo we also For Lindan and Prateolus doo note it in Luthers and Melanchthons Chronicles as a Iewish heresie Rainoldes Good reason when Luther and Melanchthon write it But when Irenaeus Hilarie Lactantius and other Fathers write it what doo they note it then Hart. Suppose it were an ouersight But what néedes all this As who say you douted that we would maintaine the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of error by the scriptures Rainoldes I haue cause to dout it For though there be no man lightly so profane as to professe that he will doo so yet such is the blindnes o◠mens deuotion to Saintes there haue béene heretofore who haue so done and are still There is a famous fable touching the assumption of the blessed virgin that when the time of her death approched the Apostles then dispersed throughout the world to preach the gospell were taken vp in cloudes and brought miraculously to Ierusalem to be present at her funerall This tale in olde time was writen in a booke which bare the name of Melito an auncient learned Bishop of Asia though he wrote it not be like But whosoeuer wrote it he wrote a lye saith Bede because his words gaine say the wordes of S. Luke in the actes of the Apostles Which Bede hauing shewed in sundrie pointes of his tale he saith that he reherseth these thinges because he knoweth that some beleeue that booke with vnaduised rashnesse against S. Lukes autoritie So you sée there haue béene who haue beléeued a Father yea perhaps a rascall not a Father against the scriptures And that there are such still I sée by our countrymen your diuines of Rhemes who vouch the same fable vpon greater credit of Fathers then the other but with no greater truth Hart. Doo you call the assumption of our Ladie a fable What impietie is this against the mother of our Lord that excellent vessell of grace whom all generations ought to call blessed But you can not abide her prayses and honours Nay you haue abolished not onely her greatest feast of her assumption but of her conception and natiuitie too So as it may bee thought the diuell beareth a special malice to this woman whose seede brake his head Rainoldes It may be thought that the diuell when he did striue with Michael about the bodie of Moses whom the Lord buried the Iewes knew not where did striue that his bodie might bee reuealed to the Iewes to the entent that they might worship it and commit idolatrie But it is out of doubt that when he moued the people of Lystra to sacrifice vnto Paul and Barnabas and to call them Gods he meant to deface the glory of God by the too much honouring and praysing of his Saintes We can abide the prayses of Barnabas and Paule but not to haue them called Gods We can abide their honours but not to sacrifice vnto them Wee know that the diuell doth beare a speciall malice both to the woman and to the womans seed But whether he doth wreake it more vpon the séede by your sacrificing of prayses and prayers to the woman or by our not sacrificing let them define who know his policies The Christians of old time were charged with impietie because they had no Gods but one This is our impietie For whatsoeuer honour and prayse may bee giuen to the Saintes of God as holy creatures but creatures we doo gladly giue it We thinke of them all and namely of the blessed virgin reuerently honourably We desire our selues and wish others to folow her godly faith and vertuous life We estéeme her as an excellent vessell of grace We call her as the scripture teacheth vs blessed yea the most blessed of all women But you would haue her to be named and thought not onely blessed her selfe but also a giuer of blessednesse to others not a vessell but a fountaine or as you entitle her a mother of grace and mercy And in your solemne prayers you doo her that honour which is onely due to our creator and redeemer For you call on her to defend you from the enimie and receiue you in the houre of death Thus although in semblance of wordes you deny it yet in déede you make her equall to Christ as him our Lord so her our Ladie as him our God so her our Goddesse as him our King so her our Queene as him our mediator so her our mediatresse as him in all thinges tempted like vs sinne excepted so her deuoide of all sinne as him the onely name whereby we must be saued so her our life our ioy our hope a very mother of orphans an aide to the oppressed a medicine to the diseased and to be short all to all Which impious worship of a Sainte because you haue aduanced by keping holy dayes vnto her the feastes of her conception natiuitie assumption therefore are they abolished by the reformed Churches iustly For the vse of holy dayes is not to worship Saintes but to worship God the sanctifier of Saintes As the Lorde ordeined them that men might meete together to serue him and heare his worde Hart. Why keepe you then still the feastes of the Apostles Euangelists other Saintes and not abolish them also As some of your reformed or rather your deformed Churches haue doon Rainoldes Our deformed Churches are glorious in his sight who requireth men to worship him in spirite truth though you besotted with the hoorish beauty of your synagogues doo scorne at their simplenesse as the proude spirite of Mical did at Dauid when he was vile before the Lord. The Churches of Scotland Flanders France and others allow not holy dayes of Saintes because no day may be kept holy but to the honour of God Of the same iudgement is the Church of England for the vse of holy dayes Wherefore although by kéeping the names of Saintes dayes we may séeme to kéepe them to the honour of Saintes yet in déede we kéepe them holy to God onely to prayse his name for those benefits which he hath bestowed on vs by the ministerie of his Saintes And so haue the Churches of Flanders and Fraunce expounded well our meaning in that they haue noted that some Churches submit them selues to their weakenesse with whome they are conuersant so farre foorth that they keepe the holy dayes of Saintes though in an other sorte nay in a cleane contrarie then the Papists doo Hart. But if you kéepe the feastes of other Saintes in that sorte why not
is not one worde of your miraculous fable As litle in S. Athanasius beside that the sermon which you alleage as his is in your own edition reiected for a bastard In Damascene there is more yet not so much neither as here your Portesse hath But he is too late too weake a witnes to proue a doubtful matter pretended to be doon almost fiue hundred yeares before him The best or rather all your proofe is S. Denys whom you belye notablie For where saith he that which you doo father on him Hart. Where in an epistle of his to S. Timothee Rainoldes He wrote no such epistle Your Rhemistes did mistake their Portesse whence this stuffe is borowed For reading there that Denys wrote hereof to Timothee they thought it had béene in an epistle to Timothee The place which they meant is in a booke entitled of the names of God pretended to be writen to Timothee by Denys Hart. In a booke or an epistle it is a great matter why you should charge them with lying Rainoldes I doo not therefore charge them with it Neither would I mention this but to point you the place in which they lye For they say that S. Denys writeth these these things where neither the autour who writeth is S. Denys neither writeth he the thinges which they alleage Touching the thinges first he saith no more thereof but that amongst the Bishops inspired of the holy Ghost Hierotheâ—s excelled all the rest saue the Apostles in praysing Christes goodnesse when him selfe and Timothee and many of their holy brethren came together to behold the body which receyued God and which the Prince of life was in As for the miracle of the Apostles brought together S. Thomas comming the thirde day after the Angels singing hymnes three dayes the buriall of the virgins body the desire of Thomas to see it the sepulcher opened for his sake and the body assumpted into heauen he saith not one worde of these conceites not one word Nay he rather saith against them For he noteth namely that Iames was also present the brother of the Lord and Peter the chiefe and ancientest toppe of the Apostles Which it is not likelie he would so note of two Apostles if they had all béene present Much lesse is it likely that he would say nothing of so great a miracle if any such had happened Hart. Perhaps it is writen in some other parte of S. Denys workes Rainoldes In no part at all of anie worke that beareth the name of S. Denys Hart. Not that is extant now But he wrote manie more as Nicephorus sheweth and Damascene maketh mention of this epistle to Timothee Rainoldes Nay that which Damascene mentioneth is the booke I spake of whence all that he citeth is taken word for word Yea Nicephorus also doth alleage the same quoting the very chapter as the onely place wherein the assumption of the blessed virgin is proued by S. Denys The more doo I maruell what should moue your Rhemists to say that S. Denys writeth and witnesseth that all the Apostles were brought miraculously together to honour her diuine departure yea and that he testifieth of his own hearing that both before her death and after for three dayes the Angels did sing most melodious hymnes vnlesse they were disposed to lye for the whetstone But this of the thinges The other of the autour is not so great a faute yet a faute too For they would haue men thinke that he who wrote this worke of the names of God others of the heauenly ecclesiastical hierarchie as he termeth it was the famous Denys the scholer of S. Paul Wheras it was a counterfeit who tooke that Denys name vpon him Hart. It was that famous Denys in déed who wrote those notable and diuine workes and others in which he confirmeth and proueth plainely almost all thinges that the Church now vseth in the ministration of the holy sacraments and affirmeth that he learned them of the Apostles giuing also testimonie for the Catholike faith in most thinges now controuersed so plainely that your men haue no shift but to deny that Denys to haue béene the autour of them feyning that they be an others of later age Which is an old sleight of heretikes but most proper to you of al others Who séeing al antiquitie against you are forced to be more bold or rather impudent theÌ„ others in that point Rainoldes These flowers of your Seminarie that wee are heretikes bold impudent that all antiquitie is against vs you may spare them for they are stale they haue béene dipt in gall lye You say that he proueth plainely almost al things that the Church now vseth in the ministration of the holy Sacraments If you meane by the Church not our Church but yours that almost must haue fauor or els without almost you lauish For though he haue more thinges then either the Church of the Apostles had or ours doth allow yet neither all that you haue many that you haue not and some cleane contrarie to yours As namely in the sacrament of the Lords supper wherin you varie from vs most he neither hath your stage-like gestures toyes nor inuocation of Saintes nor adoration of creatures nor sacrificing of Christ to God nor praying for the soules in Purgatorie nor sole receyuing of the Priest nor ministring vnder onâ— kind to them who receiue nor exhortations lessons prayers in a tongue which the people doth not vnderstand So that in thingâ— of substance and not of ceremonie only he differeth as farre from your blasphemous Masse as he is néere to our Communion But the thinges which he hath you say that he affirmeth he learned them of the Apostles He doth so I graunt as it was fit for him who would be counted that Denys which was conuerted by S. Paul But as it happeneth vnto counterfeites he hath forgot himselfe in one place and so betrayed the feate For speaking of infants why they are baptized hereof saith he we say those thinges which our diuine maisters being instructed by the old tradition haue brought vnto vs. By the which words the man at vnawares hath shewed that he learned not not of the Apostles For Christ him selfe instructed the Apostles of baptisme they had it not from old tradition Hart. That is a weake coniecture why he should be a counterfeit For he might call the tradition of the Apostles old tradition though it were but certain yeares or moneths before him Rainoldes Hardly if he liued in the same time with them But if he might yet could he not say that the Apostles were instructed by the old tradition of the Apostles Belike his maisters were younger men Hart. Our coniectures may deceiue vs we must not trust them in such matters The Fathers count him the right Denys For Gregorie Nazianzen Origen
Church both in the spring and grouth of it are couered with great darknes and lye vnknown in a maner for those things saith he which are writen of them are a fewe excepted defiled with many fables while he that writeth them doth folow his own affectioÌ„ telleth not what a Saint hath done but what he would haue had him done so that the writers fansie and not the truth doth penne the storie Yea some haue thought it a point of great godlinesse to coyne prety lyes that thereby mens deuotion might be stirred vp Some haue thought it a point of great godlinesse saith Viues but wil you know of what godlines There is a mysterie in yâ— which Viâ—es doth not open Canus doth open it For he saith that they who feine and forge in writing ecclesiasticall stories deuise their whole matter ether to error or to gaine S. Paule hath forewarned vs of a kinde of men which thinke that gaine is godlines Your Church M. Hart hath had many minions who of a zeale to this godlines haue not onely writen but wrought miracles too You remember the tale of Bel and the Dragon A fréend of yours intreating thereof doth report that as the Priestes of Babylon did abuse the people in the Dragons worship so euen in the Church the people sometimes is shamefully deceiued with miracles wrought either by Priestes or by their adherents for gaine and lucres sake Hart. If any doo so we allow not of it and there is order taken by the Councell of Trent against such abuses But what is this to the Portesse or rather to the Popes supremacie Chiefly sith I minde not to alleage any thing out of the Portesse for it Rainoldes I was afraide you would You are a man aâ— likely for ought that I know to doo it for the Popes supremacie as your Rhemists to doo it for the assumption of the virgin Though my meaning was not so much of your Portesse as of Portesse-like writers by whom I fell into your Portesse But â—f you minde not to alleage any thing out of the Portesse for it then you will not bring those miracles which are fathered vpon S. Thomas of Canterburie Aqua Thomae quinquies varians colorem In las semel transijt quater in crâ—orem Ad Thomae memoriam quater lux descendit Et in sancti gloriam cereos accendit The water of Thomas did fiue times change her colour Once it was turned into milke and foure times into bloud At Thomas his monument foure times there came downe light And in the honour of the Sainte it kindled the tapers Hart. I pray go to the purpose and leaue these idle fansies which you bring in to play with There is no such thing in the Portesse now And if it were what is it to the point in question Rainoldes To the point in question as direct as may be For this Thomas died vpon occasion of a quarrell about the Popes supremacie while he maintained appeales against the king to the Pope Now to proue that he stood in defense of the truth those miracles were wrought For that which they preached who had the grace of miracles was the truth saith Bristow adding that S. Thomas of Canterbury S. Thomas of Aquine S. Francis S. Dominike and infinit others had that grace in such sorte that no man is able to put any difference betweene the miracles of Christ with his Apostles and of these men Yet well-fare their heartes who reformed your Portesse For they haue put out those miracles of S. Thomas of Canterbury and many others which they would not haue doon I trow had they not knowne some difference betwéene the miracles of these men and the miracles of Christ. But they haue left in as worthie a miracle as those of an other of Bristowes miracle-workers euen of S. Thomas of Aquine and I hope you will not call that an idle fansie though it be as idle with me as the former For they report of him that when he was praying earnestly at Naples before the image of the crucifix he heard a voyce the crucifix spake it saying to him Thomas thou hast writen well of me Thomas I should haue thought for my part that the wodden crucifix of a louing thankfull hart had commended him because he did honour it with the fame honour that is due to God and writeth solemnly that men ought to doo so But Pope Pius the fifth the Lorde-reformer of the Portesse affirmeth that the doctrine of Thomas was approued by the mouth of the crucifix him self in this miracle And he knew best the meaning ofit So that I perceyue this miracle was rather a dogmaticall miracle as Bristow â—ermeth it then personall But whether personall or dogmaâ—icall it shall not perswade me that all is true which is writen and taught by your dogmaticall Doctor Thomas For as I haue shewed he forgeth and belyeth the Fathers notably in the defense of the Popes supremacie against the Grecians I can hardly think that when the crucifix said Thomas had writen well it meant to approue his writing in that point Or if the crucifix meant it the crucifix was to blame vnlesse the faute were rather in some lying knaue who spake out of the crucifix Such feates there haue beene wrought in images ere now Hart. Euill mindes turne all thinges to the worst Pope Pius the fifth doth say of that miracle that it is recorded in a godly story Rainoldes But in what story Pope Pius doth not say Belike he meaneth Antoninus of whom you know what Canus iudgeth and his iudgement therein is good Hart. Yet you can not deny but that Antoninus reporteth many true thinges And why may not that miracle I pray be one of them Rainoldes A lying miracle no doubt as Antoninus reporteth it For he saith that when Thomas was commanded by Pope Gregorie to come vnto the Councell of Lions and to bring with him that booke which he had made by Pope Vrbanes commandement against the errours of the Grecians whereof in that Councell they were to be conuicted before he went thither that voyce was heard out of the crucifix by certaine who watched Thomas as he was praying on a certaine night in S. Dominikes coovent-coouent-church I say nothing here of the suspicious circumstances the time the night season the place the coovent-coouent-church the witnesses lying in waite the cause to proue that which should bee handled for the Pope against the Grecians in the Councell Onely this I say that séeing in that booke against the errors of the Grecians Thomas doth falsifie the writinges of S. Cyrill and of aboue six hundred Fathers euen the generall Councel of Chalcedon to make them beare witnesse for the Popes supremacie the miracle pretended to haue declared as from heauen that Thomas did well in handling so the cause of Christ was a lying miracle lying in respect
most superexcellent the first the chiefe See and saith that she needeth not to helpe her selfe with these doutfull arguments which are drawn out of those epistles and put in the decrees of Gratian. But if he were not Cardinall when he gaue that iudgement yet Bellarmin was Iesuit when he confirmed it For when he read at Rome of the Popes supremacie and came to that argument of these epistles of the Popes he said that Father Turrian a learned man had defended them to be their owne but he thought the contrarie opinion to be truer Hart. How know you that he saide so when he read at Rome Rainoldes One of your owne friendes and felowes who was present told me he heard him say so And I do the rather beléeue his report because whereas Bellarmin him selfe hath set in writing the summe of those lectures he saith though not altogether so much yet in effect For I will not deny saith he but there are some errours crept into them Hart. But he addeth that certes he thinketh neuerthelesse that they are very ancient Rainoldes And why because Isidore maketh mention of them Which reason that he therefore doth thinke them very ancient because there is mention made of them by Isidore is as much in softer wordes as if he saide he thinketh them ancient howbeit not so ancient as they are pretended It may be that Bellarmin if he were aduertised that Isidore is forged too would thinke them lesse ancient by one degrée then yet he thought But that which the Iesuit was loth to deale with ouer roughly the Lawier a man of better minde and bolder spirit doth plainely auouch For he affirmeth it to be cléere and euident that those epistles of the Popes who were before Siluester are all false and counterfeit Now Siluester was Pope at the time of the Nicen Councell aboue thrée hundred yeares after Christ. And so the exception which I made against your first band of Popes who liued thrée hundred yeares after Christ and vpward you sée it is confirmed by a famous Lawier a man of great iudgement and of your owne religion Hart. What famous Lawier is it Or how doth he confirme it Rainoldes It is Antonius Contius the kinges professor of the law in the vniuersitie of Burges with whose notes allowed and approued by the priuileges of the Spanish French kinges your Canon-law was printed at Anwerpe by Plantin In one of those notes he saith that he hath brought many reasons in his preface by which he hath proued and shewed manifestly that the epistles of the Popes who were before Siluester are all false and counterfeit Behold he hath shewed it not by one or two ghesses but by many reasons and that manifestly Hart. But what are the reasons which he hath shewed it so by Rainoldes Nay I am bound to kéepe counsell in that For the preface wherin he brought those reasons is not printed Though I must cléere Plantin the printer from the faute For I caused a friend of mine to aske of him why it was not printed and what became of it whether a man might sée it or no. To whome he made answere that the Censour appointed to ouersee bookes to be allowed to the print would not suffer it to passe but what became of it hee remembred not nor knew how to procure it They that doo euill hate the light There was somewhat in that preface which the Censour would not that all men should see But the truth saith Tully which is pressed downe by many lewde men doth rise vp often times by this one meanes that either they who are craftie to deceiue are not bold to enterprise so much as they deuise or they who are bold enough to doo any thing haue not wit and subtiltie to conuey their practises Which consideration of a wise Oratour the folly of your Censour hath proued to be true For though he were bold enough to leaue out the preface of Contius yet he had not craft enough to raze out that note which mentioneth the preface And yet a litle after to sée the mischiefe of it how that should scape his handes he hath put in a note vnder Contius his name which would haue helped well if he had razed out the other For vpon a text of Pope Anacletus he hath made him say I know that some affirme those epistles of the Popes who next succceded Peter to be false and counterfeit but I would desire them to bring better proofe specially sith they are found in all the courses of canons that are extant collected by Isidore out of the booke of Damasus which was Bishop of Rome This note was iuggled in well by the Censour with this subscription Contius Pity that he tooke not away the other note where Contius is subscribed too Hart. Why suspect you the Censour that he should make that note and not Contius him selfe write it You haue a lesson in S. Paul that charitie is not suspicious Rainoldes Charitie is not sottish neither I learne that lesson of him too For as it is a vice to suspect vniustly so it is no vertue to beleeue vnwisely And S. Paul who saith that charitie beleeueth all thinges yet beléeued not that they meant him well of whom he vnderstood by his sisters sonne that they would lye in waite to kill him Charitie beleeueth all thinges which a wise and godly man should beléeue But to beleeue that Contius wrote that note him selfe were greater folly to the beleeuer then charitie to the Censour For how could it be that a learned man the kinges professor of the law should say concerning the same epistles first I haue shewed manifestly by many reasons that they are counterfeit and anon I know that some affirme them to be counterfeit but I would desire them to bring better proofe Chiefly sith the cause that is added there why he desireth better proofe is Isidores autoritie whom Contius in that respect doth discredit which note is printed too And afterwarde againe on other textes of those epistles he noteth sundrie pointes whereby it is manifest he saith that they are forged and yet againe on other he mentioneth the proofe thereof made in his preface yea and that is more vpon the same epistle of the same Anacletus on which that counterfeit note was coyned Contius againe noteth this epistle is falsely fathered on Anacletus as I aduertised in my preface Sée you not how rightly Tully did obserue that if either suttletie were bold or boldnesse craftie it would go hard with the truth The truth which is oppugned by those epistles of the Popes should haue had one patrone lesse to speake for her if your Censour had béene as politike to blot out the notes touching the preface as he was hardie to leaue the preface out and coine a new note against it And yet perhaps
manifest testimonie that their praiers are offered in heauen vnto God by anie other person then by Christ Iesus the hye Priest of our profession the Angell of the couenant the onely mediator betweene God and man And this doth séeme to be that Angel that other Angell of whom it is writen in the Reuelation An other Angell came and stoode before the altar hauing a golden censer and there was much odours giuen vnto him that he should put them into the prayers of all the Saintes on the golden altar which is before the throne and the smoke of the odours which were put into the prayers of the Saintes went vp before God out of the Angels hand For although the Angels be ministring spirites sent forth to minister for the Saints on earth who shall inherite saluation and therefore as they serue to certifie them that their prayers are come vp before God so they might rather offer their prayers to God then the Saintes in heauen who haue no such ministery to serue the Saintes on earth yet because this Angell standing with a censer at the altar of incense to burne perfume before God is set forth as dooing that duetie which the hie Priest did figure in the law and our hye Priest is no created Angel but he by whom the Angels were created euen Christ it foloweth that Christ is meant by the Angell To whom this name is giuen oftentimes in scripture because he is an Angel that is to say a messenger sent by God his father to open his will vnto his seruants and worke their saluation by his couenant And it may be that as God the father hauing said of him Behold I send an Angell doth adde my name is in him to shew that he is God so to distinguish him from the created Angels who are often mentioned in the Reuelation S. Iohn doth cal him an other Angell as differing from the rest not onely in number but also in nature autoritie and dignitie For those things which are writen of the Angell who had the seale of the liuing God who casting fier into the earth the Angels blew their trumpets and powred out the plagues of God who comming downe from heauen clothed with a clowde and the rainebow vpon his head and his face was as the sunne his feete as pillers of fier had in his hand a little booke set his right foote on the sea and his left foote on the lande which are namely written of an other Angell an other mightie Angel as he is also called doo if the circumstances of the text be weighed best agrée to Christ. But whether it be so or no it is certaine that Christ is the Angell who putteth odours of most sweete perfume into the prayers of all the Saintes as our hye Priest and offreth them to God his father to whom he maketh alwayes intercession for vs and is not onely for our prayers but for our selues also an odour of a sweete smelling sauour before him Wherefore sith the scripture manifestly sheweth that our Sauiour Christ offreth the prayers of all the Saintes and not that the Saintes in heauen offer the prayers of the Saintes on earth you might haue bene contented to leaue this honour vnto Christ and haue suffred me to go forward with your reasons about the offering in Malachie For you see how we are fallen from the Pope to Priests from Priests to the Masse from Masse to the Saintes And if I should folow the same veyne on that which you haue saide of Saintes and touch your abuse who confessing that the scriptures giue that name to faithfull and holy persons in earth yet to maintaine your solemne inuocation of dead men do make it proper not to Saintes in heauen but to them whom it shall please the Pope to canonize or deifie as the Master of his sacred ceremonies termeth it wherin notwithstanding your Doctors also teache that the Pope may erre and canonize a wicked person for a Saint so that it may be euen by your owne doctrine that in your Church-seruice you worship them as Saints whose spirits are in hell with the deuill and his Angels I say if I should flit thus from point to point on euery occasion that your speech doth offer we should confound our conference and neuer make an end of the point in question Wherefore let other questions I pray be reserued to their due place touchinge the faith of the Church And now to finish this touching the head of the Church let vs go forward with your Masse-priestes that so we may returne to the Popes supremacy Of the sixe reasons therfore which you alleaged out of D. Allen to proue that the cleane offring which Malachie doth write of is the sacrifice of the Masse and not spirituall sacrifices the first is conuinced clearely to be false and that by the consent of all the same Fathers whom he would proue it by For the word which noteth an outward sacrifice with him with all them is incense of sweete perfumes and odours But incense in the scripture is taken for the praiers of the Saintes as you grant The word then which he doth build the Masse vpon is not alwayes taken properly in scripture for the act of outward sacrifice Hart. But he doth not onely vrge the word to sacrifice for which indéede the Fathers and the Hebrewe text haue incense but the word to offer And if that be alwaies taken properly for the act of outward sacrifice his reason is of force still Rainoldes But the force of his reason doth lye vpon the word to sacrifice not to offer For him selfe granteth that lay men yea women too are said to offer properly and truely when as in the olde law the tithes and first fruites commanded to be giuen to the Leuites and the poore were presented before God so they present bread and wine for the communion or almes for the reliefe of the poore and needy or any earthly giftes and offerings for holy vses as the Fathers shew Wherefore though the word to offer were alwaies taken properly for the act of outward offering it proueth not the offering of your outward sacrifice sith the wise men offered giftes vnto Christ the faithfull Iewes at the altar lay men and women at the Masse and yet nether any of them were Massing-priests nor their offerings Massing-hosts Much lesse doth it proue it as Malachie applyeth it to the offering of incense For as incense signifieth the prayers of the Saintes so to offer incense must be to sacrifice those prayers But the sacrifice of prayers is a spirituall sacrifice Wherfore the word to offer doth not proue your outward sacrifice of the Masse And so the first reason is gone The second foloweth which is no sounder then the former For why doth Allen say that the
that the Apostles did ordeine them Rainoldes That rule of S. Austin is probable not necessarie For though it be likely that there was no custome obserued by the Church through the whole world which it had not from the Apostles chiefly seeing Christians did vary then so much in rites of all sortes yet they might either haue taken vp or kept of that they had before some thing which the Apostles deliuered not vnto them But admit his rule as an vndouted principle to your most aduantage and yet are you no neerer the proofe of those ceremonies For how can you proue that incense lightes vestiments and the rest of your baggage were vsed at that time through the whole world Hart. Incense to haue béene vsed I haue proued by S. Denys Areopagita lightes by S. Austin Rainoldes But you haue not proued that they were vsed through the whole world either by S. Austin or by S. Denys Nay that Denys who so euer he were doth proue the contrarie For in his description of the Masse as you call it there are neither lightes nor vestiments nor crossinges nor all the other ceremonies whereby it is manifest that they were not vsed through the whole world when that Denys wrote As for incense howsoeuer it crept into that Church in the which he liued it appeereth by the writinges of Tertullian and Arnobius that the Church vsed it not in their dayes Neither is the censing which Denys speaketh of liker to yours then I shewed your blessinges are like to S. Austins For he hath it onely once aboute the Church But in your solemne Masse it is vsed often and to sundrie thinges to the crosse to relikes to images to candlestickes to the altar the lower part of it and the higher to the Priestes to the booke to the bread and wine thrise aboue the chalice and the host and thrise about them to the altar and the Priest againe and againe to the quire to the deacon to the subdeacon to the people and in Masses for the dead to the sacrament also at the time of the eleuation So that if the wordes of the Trent-councell be weighed with your practise you will léese the countenance of that which Denys sheweth to For with him it is incense in the singular number Your Masses and the Councell hauâ— incenses in the plurall By the which word if the Councell meant to note all the censinges that are vsed in Massing as they did of likelyhood then neither Denys maketh for your Massing-incense Though whatsoeuer he make he maketh nought for your reason because he proueth not that it was vsed through the whole world Now the lights which your Iesuite hath founde in S. Austin make lesse a greate deale for it For S. Austin calleth the lights which they vsed 1 lightes of the night because they did vse them in the night time when they met at prayers as Christians were wont But your Massing-lights are vsed in the day time when the sunne shineth a thing perhaps obserued through the whole world but of idolatrous Heathens not of the Church of Christ. Hart. Yes that Christian Churches had also lightes burning in the bright sunne-shine while the gospel was reading S. Ierom is a witnesse and before S. Ierom his Maister Nazianzen maketh mention of it and Athanasius before them both Wherefore out of dout it is an ancient custome and that very generall Rainoldes As you say if it be witnessed by these thrée Doctors S. Ierom of Europe Nazianzen of Asia Athanasius of Afrike But he who saith they witnesse it hath not read them I thinke Hart. But I thinke he hath or rather I am sure of it For D. Stapleton saith it in his comparison of the Catholike and Roman Churches Masse with the Lordes supper of the Protestants Wherin as he allegeth these Doctors for this point so he proueth all things which your Supper wanteth and our Masse hath to be Apostolike Rainoldes He proueth Nay he promiseth to proue them Apostolike For in verie truth he proueth not one not one of all those things wherein your Masse differeth from our Lords supper No more then he proueth this of lightes burning in the bright sunne-shine in the which he notably abuseth their names whom he doth cite to proue it For in Athanasius the tapers of the Church are mentioned onely but that they were lighted in the day-time while the gospell was reading there is no such word Nazianzene speaketh of lightes that were burning vpon Easter-euen but to lighten the night he saith not the day Hart. But speaketh he there of those night-lightes alone and of no other light Rainoldes He speaketh of an other light but spirituall For he saith that the most bright shining light foloweth the candle that did go before it Hart. Why that is it that sheweth the ceremonie which wée talke off For they were wont to carry candles before the gospell when they did reade it Rainoldes They were wont afterward But we speake of Nazianzene And he meant nothing lesse For by the light he signified Christ the light of the world and by the candle Iohn Baptist who went before Christ to prepare his wayes The light saith he shining most excellently bright foloweth the candle that did go before it and the word the voice and the bridegrome the bride man or frend who bringeth the bride to him Is this D. Stapletons proofe out of Nazianzene for burning tapers in the day time Hart. Of Nazianzene I know not But certainely S. Ierom is a witnesse of it against Vigilantiâ—s Rainoldes Yet these are S. Ieroms owne words in that treatise We doo light tapers not in the brightâ—day-time as thou doost vainely sclaunder vs but by this comfort to ease the darknes of the night Hart. But he addeth that Churches of the east had lightes burning in the day-time while the gospell was reading therby to shew their ioy Rainoldes But nether this vsage of the easterne Churches was the same that yours is For they did kéepe lightes while the gospel was reading and put them out after which rite you had also and some where haue perhaps yet But the generall rite which you haue gotten now of burning tapers still before the gospell and after that in S. Ieroms time not onely was vnborne in the weâ—â— but in the â—ast too Though if the east had vsed it yet nether were it proued so by your reason that the Apostles did ordeine it because it was not vsed in the westerne Churches therfore not through the whole world Howbeit I deny not but there is good reason why your Church should vse it For Tertullian saith let them light candels dayly who haue no light the testimonies of darkenes doo well beseeme them Hart. You may bring Tertullians werdes when you haue proued that we haue
was not thrée yeares Bishop Or if because Cyprian doth write it to the Pope you haue such a preiudice that it is the Popes peculiar you may know that he writeth the same to an other expresly of himself TheÌ„ce haue schismes heresies sproong doe spring that the Bishop which is one and ruleth the church is despised by the proud presumption of certain men Wherefore though your Rhemists and other of the Popes friends doe plie the box with that saying of one Priest one iudge for the time in Christs steed yet in very truth it maketh as much for the Bishop of Rochester as for the Bishop of Rome The more is Stapletons blame who knowing and confessing the same not onely otherwhere but in this very worke of his principles too yet in the ende thereof abridgeth it to the Pope Maruell that in his preface to Gregorie he past it He might haue alleaged it better then he hath The head of all Churches Which title is giuen in Victor to the Church of Rome not to the Bishop and toucheth lesse the Papacie there then in S. Gregorie in whom it doth not proue it as I haue declared Marry that which followeth is of greater shew out of Ambroses commentarie on S. Paul to Timothee where Damasus the Bishop of Rome in his time is called ruler of the Church But first whatsoeuer he were who wrote that it was not S. Ambrose the famous Bishop of Milan on whom are falsly fathered the coÌ„mentaries on S. Paul as your Diuines of Louan do obserue and testifie Next the wordes themselues which are in that autour on mention of the house of God the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus are not in my iudgement the autours owne wordes but a glose crept in amongst them For whereas S. Paule writing vnto Timothee declared why he did so to wéete that thou mayst know how thou oughtest to behaue thy selfe in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God the commentarie thereon doth expouÌ„d it thus I write vnto thee that thou maiest know how to gouern the Church which is the house of God that whereas all the world is Gods yet the Church is called his house the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus For the world is naught troubled with sundrie errours Therefore the house of God and truth must of neceâ—sitie be saide to be there where he is feared according to his will In the which wordes if that of Damasus were omitted the lâ—ter clawse contayning a reason of the former would cleaue therevnto more suantly and fitly Which maketh me to thinke that it was not pitched in thetext by the autour but found a â—hinke and so came in as an other glose of Damasus successour hath done into Optatus And I think it the rather because some are perswaded by manifolde conference as your Louanists note that the booke of questions of the old and new testament entitled to S. Austin this to S. Ambrose are the same autours For he who wrote that booke was not aliue of lykelihoode when Damasus was Pope Howbeit if he were too and of a kinde â—ffection to Rome where he liued thought good to mention him the wordes which he vseth in Latin cuius hodie rector est Damasus might meane that Damasus was a ruler of the Church not as you english it the ruler Which to haue bene so it appéereth farther by the word at this day spoken with a relation to the dayes of Timothee that as hée did gouerne the Church in Paules time so at that present was Damasus ruler of it Wherefore sith Timothee was placed at Ephesus to set that Church in order not to rule the whole Damasus might be called a ruler of the Church in that he was Bishop of the Church of Rome as S. Ambrose termeth him though he were not the ruler of the vniuersal S. Austin is the last oâ— them whose testimonies you cited And the preeminence of a higher roome whereof he made mention to Boniface the first importeth a prerogatiue of honour ouer others not soueraintie of power A prerogatiue of honour according to the canon of the first Councell of Constantinople which gaue that prerogatiue to the See of Rome because that citie raigned Not soueraintie of power as it is euident by the Councell of Afrike where he denied that to the same Boniface to whom hée graunted this preeminence It was therefore only the dignitie of place which S. Austin meant by the higher roome As else where hauing named Cyprian Olympius and other auncient writers he sayth that Innocentius was after them in time before them in place because they were Bishops of inferiour cities and he of the Roman Hart. Nay but S. Austin sayth in plain termes that the principalitie of the Apostolike See had floorished in that Church still Rainoldes But S. Austin addeth in as plain termes that Bishops may reserue their cases to the iudgement of their fellow-bishops chiefly of the Apostolike Church and that a generall Councell is aboue the Pope in iudging of those causes too Which is a cléere proofe that by the principalitie of the Apostolike See he meant the Church of Rome to be chéefe of other Churches as I sayd in honour not in power For in power al others at least the Apostolike that is in which the faith of Christ had bene taught by the Apostles themselues are made equall with it But amongst all in which the Apostles themselues had taught the faith the Roman for honour credit had the chiefty And thus haue I discharged my selfe of my promise which was that I would yeeld vnto the Popes supremacie if you prooued it by the sayings and iudgement of the Fathers alleaged and applied rightly For none of all theÌ„ which you haue alleaged neither of any other church nor of the Roman it self doth auouch it Whereby the shamelesse vanitie of Bristow may be séene who being not contented to say of all the Fathers that they were Papists addeth that in familiar talke among our selues we are not afeard plainely to confesse it The Lord who is witnesse of our thoughtes and spéeches knoweth that we are lewdly sclaundered herein And for mine owne part I am so farre off from confessing plainely that they were all Papists that I haue plainly declared and confirmed not one of them to haue bene For the very being and essence of a Papist consisteth in opinion of the Popes supremacie But the Popes supremacie was not allowed by any of the Fathers Not one then of al the Fathers was a Papist Wherefore if you haue the Fathers in such reuerent regard and estimatioÌ„ as you pretend M. Hart let if not the Scriptures yet the Fathers moue you to forsake Papistrie and giue to euery pastor and church their owne right whereof Christ hath possessed
the youthes in his Pasquines nor poore men haue cause to stand in doute of him though he threaten being armed with a leauer and a dish-clout that a wil quel all who stand in his way crush theÌ„ in peeces And if the Parasites of the Pope think that to be lightning which he hath â—â—asht to burn England sure it is such lightning as was after the Poet the lightning of Salmoneus who shaking oft a torch did counterfeit the thundring soundes and lightning flames of heauen But such kindes of lightning although they daunt the wauering Gréekes and towne of Elis whose king is Salmoneus yet they daunt not the vnuincible Christians and citie of the liuing God whose king is the Lord. And let him who flasht it take héed if he bee wise least his foolish lightning as they say it happened to the lightner Salmoneus be reuenged with true lightning of almightie God to the vtter ruine of him selfe his towne and citizens For the Church which is lead by the holy Ghost into all truth hath béene alreadie taught by him out of the scriptures and shall be taught farther through the grace of God what difference there is betweene the lightning of Bristow and the light of Iesus Christ the lightning of Bristow the heate whereof doth hurt the bodies which it striketh the light of Iesus Christ the beames whereof delite the men to whom it shineth the lightning euill and pestilent which blindeth them who sée and killeth them who liue the light good and healthfull which giueth sight vnto the blinde and life vnto the dead Neither are wee without many godly men of excellent autoritie learning and iudgement euen amongst them whom this Tertullus nameth reprochefâ—lly great Maiâ—ters who could haue shewed this long ago â—â—wbeit they haue stayed hetherto from dooing it either because they thought his folies were refuted before they were writen for that after the maner of the Popish writers he bringeth no new matter but scowreth vp old rustie stuffe as one of them did note long since or because they purposed first to encounter with such as had writen before and more pithily entending to deale after with the rest in due time as an other signified of late that he meant or because the controuersies being sufficiently traueled in by many they thought that they might well cease from this labour though the Papistes ceased not from their impudencie as Ieremie hauing answered Hananiah once gaue him no answere wheÌ„ he repeated his error or because perhaps some had no leasure from their weightier charge of feeding the Church some listed not to striue with such a railing person some while they thinke that others haue taken it in hand do let it alone al either remember the counsell of the wise man that thou must not alwayes answere a foole least thou become like him or if it were requisite to answere him now least he seeme wise in his owne conceit they straine curtesie who should doo it For my part least the Philistines should vaunt any longer as if their were no man amongst the Israelites that durst fight with Goliath or the Israelites be gréeued with hearing the host of the liuing God to be so defyed of an vncircumcised Philistin I purposed through gods grace though perhaps Goliath would haue disdained me as a childe yet I purposed to set vpon him in the name of the Lord of hostes the God of the host of Israel But when I had prepared my selfe to the battaile and chosen smooth stones out of the brooke of Gods worde which are mightie through God to cast downe holdes euery high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God I heard that the matter was dispatched alreadie by a stoute and faithful souldiour of Christ by whom many Philistines had before beene conquered Whose worke as I vnderstood since is at the presse too and shall be shortly published Wherefore laying now aside my former purpose I thought on that demaund and promise of Bristow touching the scripture and the Church wherein he doth challenge and offer vs the combat For whereas a countrie man of ours vnder the title of an vnlearned Christian concealing his own name had set foorth a booke touching the autoritie of Gods word 〈◊〉 Church Bristow willeth him to set out his booke and put his name to it with approbation of our Rabbines and with priuilege and promiseth that he shal quickly see it answered This booke haue I sought for but could not fall vpon it all the copies of it as I ghesse being sold. Neither knew I how to speake with the autor who had coÌ„cealed his name I dout not but for good cause But to satisfie if not wholy yet as farre as I might the chaleÌ„ge of Bristow I haue set out this litle treatise of the same point with the autours name thereto approbation not of Rabbines whom we leaue to that Synagogue whose rulers loue to be called Rabbi Rabbi Maisters Doctours but of graue and learned men whom it concerneth Which thing I hope will like him so much the better because it compriseth not onely that question touching the scripture and the Church that he desireth to be set out but certaine other also of the same kinde chiefly touching the Church whereof he hath onely the bare name to boast of And I looke for an answere so much the sooner because there are now fower yeares past since he promised a Latin booke to which whether it be come abroad already or to come shortly he may ioine if it please him an answere to these Conclusions Wherein if he thinke it méete for him to deale there are thrée things both easy to be doon and reasonable in my iudgement which I will request him One is that he will set downe the text of my Conclusions wholy with his answere as I had determined to doo with his Demaundes that the readers may sée what he confuteth and how An other that he will not kicke against the prickes that he will yéelde to the truth and not go about to darken the cléere light of the sunne of righteousnes with cauils and sclanders The thirde that if he be ashamed to say the truth preuails against me yet in reprouing such things as he assayeth to reproue he will deale more soundly and sincerely then D. Stapleton hath doon in his Doctrinall Principles of faith a worke more full of wordes then truth For to confute our doctrine that the Church is the company of Gods elect and chosen which we teach of the Catholike Church and it is true he teacheth that euill men are mingled in the Church with good the reprobate with the elect which thing is also true in the militant Church But true thinges agrée with true thinges neâ—â—her doth one truth ouerthrow an other We hold that the Catholike Church which is commended to vs in the Creede is the whole company of
that we beleeue the scripture because of the Church if he come as néere to the meaning of Cusanus as he dooth to his wordes that he thinke the scriptures credit and autoritie dependeth of the Church and the Church imparteth autoritie canonicall as Pighius expresly saith vnto the scripture he hath a harder forhead then I thought he had Yet Andradius the expounder and patrone of the faith of Trent speaketh much more modestly and religiously to geue him his due praise of the autoritie of the scriptures Which first he acknowledgeth that they haue not from men but from God not from the Church but from the holy Ghost and then he concludeth thereof that it is detestable to teach that either profane bookes may be made canonicall by the Church Bishops or such as are certainly canonicall may be refused Of the which things to affirme the one he saith it is a point of notorious impudencie the other of madnesse and impietie not to be suffered O that Andradius had likewise detested the cuppe of the whoores abominations in other things Or sith he is dead I would to God that all Christians who of godly mind mislike somewhat in her and who dooth not mislike somewhat would mislike the rest of all her filthinesse too nor onely be Christians almost as Agrippa but like both almost and altogether to Paul as Paul did wish to him To the which end that I might help them forward as much as lay in me I haue doone the best I can to heale the dangerous humors of opinions which do so anoy the tast of séely soules that they thinke the heauenly bread to be poyson and abhorre the swéetest foode of life as woormwood These humours that I speake off are peruerse errours which seduce them from the truth in that article of our Créede I beleeue the holy catholike Church For some are perswaded that the name of holy Church belongeth not to the whole company of the Christian people but to the Ministers onely and Bishops of the Church no not to the Ministers of euery Church neither but of the Church of Rome euen the Pope and Cardinals Whom to haue gotten by a certaine custome to be called the church and that the church had doon receiued and ordeined that which was do on receiued and ordeined by them Marsilius Patauinus did note in his age and it is too well knowen vnto men of yéeres Other some and they of the lernedder sort acknowledge that the Church doth signifie the company of faithfull men and beléeuers but they wil haue that company to bée a people assembled by their own Bishop and cleauing to the head that is to the Pope least the Papall State be any way impaired They comprehende therefore all such within that company as doo professe the faith both the good and badde holy and profane godly and hypocrites There are some also who thinke that by this point to beleeue the holy church the churches authoritie is commended to vs that we should trust credite and obey the church which the Councell of Trent it séemeth would insinuate though somewhat darkely and distrustfully But Bristow therein dooth beare the bell away For he the more easily to deceiue English men at least the simpler if not all worketh treacherie with the dooble signification of wordes expounding this article I beleeue the Church as if the meaning of it were I trust the Church betwéene the which things there is great difference and that very manifest in the Gréeke and Latin though in our mother tounge not so Yet this man was created Doctor at Dâ—way and some doo account him a man of much value O wretched professors of the Doway-schoole that created such a Doctour but more wretched Papistes if they geue credit to such a Doctour who whether he be sophister or sclaunderer more notable it is harde to say A learned man among the Heathens if I remember well said that physicians can not finde a medicine against the byting of a sclaunderer But because the things are possible with God which are impossible with men therefore vpon confidence of his gracious goodnes I haue assayed to make one against the biting of this sclaunderer and of the like in the fourth Conclusion wherein I haue declared setting apart the Prelates of the Church of Rome and goates mingled with shéepe that the holy Catholike Church which we beleeue is the whole companie of Gods elect and chosen Moreouer least the painting of the Romish Church should make vnskilfull young men to be enamored of her when they should heare many commend her as Catholike Apostolike and sound in faith to take this visard also away from her face wash away her painting with water of the holy Ghost I haue added the fifth Conclusion that the Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the Catholike church A matter cléere in truth but hard to be perswaded specially to louers for Cupide is blinde And as he saith in Theocritus The things that are not faire seeme faire to him that is in loue Daphnis in the Poet saith so to Polyphemus we by experience haue found it true in Bristow For he being besotted with the loue of the whoore is not content to say that she alone is Catholike that errour were more tolerable at least it were an error common to him with many But he affirmeth farther that the Church might be was called Apostolike for this cause onely that we might be directed thereby as by a marke to the Church of Rome founded by the Apostles Peter and Paul the onely Church now left of all the Churches Apostolike Which flattering spéech of this louer the Pope of Rome himselfe the bridegroome of his Church though doating on his bride too yet refuseth acknowledging that the Church was called Apostolike by the Fathers in the Creede to note the beginning of the Church which it hath from the Apostles because they deliuered once the Churches doctrine and spread it abroad through all the world As for them that geue the title of Catholike to the Church of Rome they must take aduisement how to cléere their boldnesse from attaint of sacriledge who decke an adulteresse with the spoiles of the spouse of Christ or to thinke the best of the Church of Rome who spoile the mother to decke the daughter and her not the best with great wrong and iniurie to the rest of the sisters For the name of Catholike dooth not appertaine to this or that Church but to the Church vniuersall continued through all nations ages and prouinces from Adam vnto vs and to our posteritie as the Councell of Trent and the expounders of the Councell such is the force of truth doo confesse plainly But the chiefest errour that is to be abated is theirs who are perswaded that the Church of Rome is of right
is it fully written by S. Iohn Let vs heare him selfe speake These things saith he are writen that ye may beleeue that Iesus is the Christ the sonne of God and that in beleeuing yee may haue life through his name In which wordes the summe and end of the gospell is set downe by Iohn the summe that we may beleeue that Iesus is the Christ the Christ that is the soueraine Priest Prophet and King the Sauiour of men the end that we beleeuing in Christ the sonne of God may through him haue life euen that which alone is called life rightly to wit eternall life Which things being so as the Euangelist him selfe teacheth it must néedes be granted that those things which are writen in the gospell are sufficient for vs both to the way of life and to life As much then as sufficeth to faith and saluation so much is writen in the gospell For if the things which are writen had not béene sufficient to faith and saluation there were mo thing◠which might haue bene writen so many as the world could not haue conteined But these were omitted by the spirit of God because the other were enough for his purpose For he giueth this reason why mo were not writen these things are writen that yee may beleeue and in beleeuing may haue life There is contained therefore in S. Iohns gospell so much as is sufficient to faith and saluation Then if S. Iohns gospell alone haue sufficient how plentifully hath Christ prouided for his Church as a most bountifull Lord for his houshold to which he hath giuen so many Apostles and Euangelists witnesses and expounders of the same doctrine Wherefore the scripture doth not onely teach the Church but also amply and plentifully teach it all things behoofull to saluation For although the substance of the Christian faith be single and the same wherewith as with meate the seruants of God are fedde to life eternall yet as the ages of the seruants differ and in ages different their cases differ too so was it méete there should be sundry sortes and waies to diuide that meate and as it were to season it for ech one his part as it might best agrée with him Whereof that we might haue a true liuely paterne set foorth by Christs owne spirit in the word of life for the féeding of the faithfull therefore hée gaue sundry woorkemen so to terme them and writers of his faith that although they deliuered all the same foode yet they did not dresse it all in one sort And so it cometh to passe that in those writers of the faith of Christ both the vnitie of doctrine in the diuersitie of deliuering yeldeth a swéete tast in the spirituall mouth of the godly minde and the manifold vse ministreth holesome nourishment to euery mans stomake the euident plainnesse in the groundes of faith maketh that euen they who are of deintiest mouthes can not refuse it for the toughnes and the hidden wisedome in the secretes of scripture both trieth the strongest and satisfieth them who are sharpest set and to say that in a word which no wordes can expresse enough the infinite treasures bring infinite fruits to the faithfull to procure them a blessednes that is exceeding great and infinite Wherefore it is a thing so cléere and so sure that those secretaries of the holy Ghost ioyned togither doo open to the Church in the holy scriptures all things behoofefull to saluation that he who knoweth it not may be iustly counted ignorant hée who acknowledgeth it not lewde hée who dissembleth it vnthankfull hée who denieth it more then wicked For what can there be in cléerenesse more euident or in peise more weightie or in strength more sound or in truth more certaine then that generall principle which S. Paul deliuereth not as Moses of the law not as Iohn of the gospell but of the whole scripture and holy writt to Timothee The whole scripture is giuen by inspiration of God and is profitable to teach to improue to correct to instruct in righteousnes that the man of God may bee furnished throughly furnished to euery good worke Thus if you demaund of what autoritie scripture is it came from God by inspiration if you regard what vse it hath it teacheth improueth correcteth instructeth if you would sée to what end it is that the man of God may be furnished Our dutie in Christ Iesus is faith woorking by loue Faith embraceth sound doctrine loue requireth a godly life Soundnes of doctrine is held if true things be taught and false refuted Godlines of life is kept if we fly from euill and folow good But the holy scripture teacheth the truth improueth errour correcteth iniquitie instructeth to righteousnes as it appéereth by the Apostles wordes Therefore it setteth foorth a mans whole dutie in Christ Iesus that is as I suppose so much as sufficeth to saluation For it is not onely profitable to these things as some doo mince the matter but sufficient too in so much that it is able to make a man wise to saluation through faith and to furnish him Yea to furnish what maner of man the man of God that is the Lordes interpreter the Minister of the worde the teacher of the Church the Pastour of the flocke euen Timothee himselfe much more the flock of the faithfull in whom so great furniture of wisdome is not necessary Howbeit the Apostle neither so contented with saying that the man of God may be furnished addeth to beat the absolute perfection of the scripture into our mindes and memories with as many reasons as he vseth wordes that the man of God may be furnished throughly furnished to euerie good worke Whereupon it foloweth that there is nothing at all that can be wished for either to soundnes and sinceritie of faith or to integritie and godlines of life that is to mans perfection and the way of saluation which the scripture geuen by inspiration of God doth not teach the faithfull seruantes of Christ. It is the iudgement therefore of the holy Ghost whose sentence I defend as I am bound by duetie that the holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessarie to saluation Here if some perhaps desire the testimonies of the Fathers though to what purpose sith ye haue heard the Father of Fathers notwithstanding if any would heare the scholers iudgement when he hath heard the masters he shall heare the iudgement not of this or that man of whom he might dout but of the whole Church and of all the Saints For they with one agréement and generall consent haue termed the bookes of scripture Canonicall of the word Canon which signifieth a rule because they containe a worthy rule and squire of religion faith and godlines according whereunto the building of the house of God must be fitted Which opinion touching the Canon of the scripture allowed by Andradius himselfe the chiefest patrone of the Popish faith hath béene
so well liked of the ancient Doctors that Austin saith that all things concerning faith and maners are contained in those I say not which are but which are plaine in scripture Chrysostome auoucheth in the like maner that euery thing is cleere and euident by the scriptures and whatsoeuer things are necessarie they are manifest Tertullian pronounceth that himselfe honoureth the fulnes of the scriptures and denounceth a woe to Hermogenes the heretike if he take ought from those things which are writen or adde to them Ierom in the controuersie which he had with Heluidius doth turne the reason in and out we beleeue it because we reade it we beleeue it not because we reade it not Cyrill obserueth that such of the things doon by Christ are writen as the writers thought to be sufficient for maners and doctrine Basil affirmeth that it is a manifest reuolting from the faith either to disallow any thing that is writen or to bring in any thing that is not writen to be short all the Fathers vnlesse it were when some humaine infirmity ouertooke them agrée with one minde and say with one voice that all things which God hath willed vs to beléeue and doo are comprehended in the scriptures For as touching that some of them sometimes as Basil and Epiphanius assaying all sortes of helpes against heretikes will haue certaine things to be contained in traditions whereto by the iudgement of scripture it selfe there must no lesse credit be geuen then to scripture I take not vpon me to controll them but let the Church iudge whether they considered with aduise inough those sayings of S. Paul by which they were induced perhaps to this opinion at least they séeke to prooue it For Epiphanius groundeth vpon these wordes of his to the Corinthians as I deliuered to you and I haue deliuered so in the Churches and if ye keepe it except ye haue beleeued in vaine And Basil gathereth it to be Apostolike doctrine that we must hold fast vnwriten traditions by his wordes to the Thessalonians hold the traditions which ye haue been taught either by word or by our epistle Now if S. Paul meant in both these places by deliuered and traditions his doctrine deliuered to them by word of mouth yet comprised in scripture too then must it be granted that they were deceiued who thought that vnwriten traditions were approoued by S. Pauls traditions But the former point is true that he meant so Therefore the later also is true which foloweth of it For he dooth expound it himselfe to the Corinthians considering that he writeth the summe of those things which he had deliuered and what he deliuered that he receiued he saith of the Lord and that which he receiued of the Lord is writen and in plaine termes he witnesseth himselfe to haue deliuered that vnto them which he had receiued according to the scriptures to weet that Christ died for our sinnes according to the scriptures and that he was buried and that hee rose the third day according to the scriptures As for the Thessalonians what the things were which he deliuered vnto them by word it is shewed in the actes of the Apostles where we reade that Paul being come to Thessalonica taught the Iewes out of the scriptures that it behooued Christ to suffer and to rise again from the dead and that this Iesus whom said he I preach to you is the Christ. In which words it is opened both what Paul deliuered to the Thessalonians by word and from whence from whence out of the scriptures what that it behooued Christ to suffer and rise againe and that Iesus is the Christ. The tradition therefore which Paul dooth exhort the Thessalonians to hold is the tradition of the gospell as Ambrose calleth it very wel Which the reason also doth proue that Ambrose noteth that Paul doth there gather God hath raysed you to saluation by our gospell therefore stand ye fast and hold the traditions which ye haue been taught either by word or by our epistle as if he should say see therefore that ye stand stedfast in the gospell which I as well by word of mouth as by writing haue deliuered to you Thus S. Pauls traditions are the gospel deliuered And the gospel I hope is writen Therfore S. Pauls traditions are writen But the saluation of the Thessalonians was contained in the traditions which S. Paul had taught them by word by epistle The scripture then informeth the Church of so much as is necessary to saluation Wherfore auant heretikes out of the schoole of Christ ye Valentinians Marcionites and Gnostikes who as Irenaeus reporteth did deny that the truth may be learned out of the holy scriptures by them who know not tradition Auant Iewes by whom the Cabala of the Rabbins auant Montanists by whom the new Comforter auant Anabaptists by whom reuelations auant ye Trent-councell-fathers and ye Papist◠by whom traditions beside scripture are falsly reputed to be necessarie to saluation Our saluation is Christ the way to saluation faith the guide of the way scripture whereof the light and lanterne directeth our steps the food nourisheth our soules the preseruatiue keepeth vs from diseases the sword killeth our enimies the plaister healeth our woundes in a word the safe conduit doth bring vs vnto eternall life The second Conclusion which I am next to treate of doth vndertake to shew that the militant Church may erre both in maners and in doctrine In maners against the Puritans who chalenging to them selues a singular kinde of holinesse denyed repentance to such as had fallen In doctrine against the Papists who for a defense and shield of their errours hold forth this bugge to fright vs out of our wits The Church can not erre Here that the truth may be the better opened the name of Church must be distinguished For as Thrasylaus a frantike man amongst the Greekes whensoeuer he saw any ships ariue into the hauen at Athens thought them all his owne and tooke an inuentory of their wares and met them with great ioy after the like maner certaine frantike Romanists wheresoeuer they see the name of the Church in the holy scripture they take it to be theirs and booke the treasures of it and boast thereof as of their owne crying the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it But to remoue these frantike men out of the hauen and deliuer the marchants ech their owne ships set the Church it selfe in possession of the Church the name of the Church in Gréeke the natiue language of the new testament cometh from a verbe which signifyeth to call out thereby to note a company called out as you would say So that the Church of Christ be tokeneth a company called out from amongst the multitude of other men to life euerlasting through faith in Christ Iesus But they who are
and our Church doth hold The third Councell of Carthage which therein the Councel of Trent subscribeth to did adde the bookes of Maccabes the rest of the apocrypha to the old Canon The Councel of Nice appointed boundes and limits as wel for the Bishop of Romes iurisdiction as for other Bishops The Councell of Lateran gaue the soueraintie of ordinarie power to the Church of Rome ouer al other Churches The Councell of Constance decréed that the Councell is aboue the Pope and made the Papall power subiect to generall Councels Which thing did so highly displease the Councell of Florence that it vndermined the Councell of Basill and guilefully surprised it for putting that in â—re against Pope Eugenius Upon the which pointes it must needes be graunted that one side of these generall Councels did erre vnlesse we will say that thinges which are contrarie may be true both Wherefore to make an end sith it is apparant by most cléere proofes that both the chosen and the called both the flockes and the Pastours both in seuerall by them selues and assembled together in generall Councels may erre I am to conclude with the good liking I hope of such as loue the truth that the militant Church may erre in maners and doctrine In the one point whereof concerning maners I defend our selues against the malicious sclanders of the Papists who charge the Church of England with the heresie of Puritans impudently and falsly In the other concerning doctrine I doo not touch the walles of Babilon with a light finger but raze from the very ground the whole mount of the Romish Synagogue Whose intolerable presumption is reproued by the third Conclusion too wherein it resteth to be shewed that the holy scripture is of greater credit autoritie then the Church And although this be so manifestly true that to haue proposed it onely is to haue proued it yet giue me leaue I pray to proue it briefly with one reason I will not trouble you with many All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth some wordes of the Church be the words of errour But he that telleth the truth alwayes is more to be credited then he that lyeth sometimes Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more then is the Church That all the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth it is out of controuersie For the whole scripture is inspired of God and God can neither deceiue nor be deceiued That some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour if any be not perswaded perhaps by the reasons which I haue brought already let him heare the sharpese and most earnest Patrone of the Church confessing it Andradâ—us Payua a Doctor of Portugall the best learned man in my opinion of all the papists reherseth certaine pointes wherein Councels also may erre euen generall Councels in so much that he saith that the very generall Councel of Chalcedon one of those four first which Gregorie professeth him selfe to receiue as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell yet Andradius saith that this Councell erred in that it did rashly and without reason these are his own wordes ordeine that the Church of Constantinople should be aboue the Churches of Alexandria and Antiâ—â—he Neither doth he onely say that the Councell of Chalcedon erred and contraried the decrees of the Nicen Cuncell but he addeth also a reason why Councels may erre in such cases to weete because they folow not the secret motion of the holy ghost but idle Blastes of vaine reportes and mens opinions which deceiue oft A Councell then may folow some times the deceitfull opinions of men and not the secret motion of the holy ghost Let the Councels then giue place to the holy scriptures whereof no part is vttered by the spirit of man but all by the spirit of God For if some cauiller to shift of this reason shall say that we must not account of that errour as though it were the iudgement of the generall Councell because the Bishop of Rome did not allow it and approue it I would request him first of all to weigh that a generall Councell and assemblie of Bishops must néedes be distinguished from this and that particular Bishop so that what the greater part of them ordeineth that is ordeined by the Councell next to consider that the name of Church may be giuen to an assemblis of Bishops and a Councell but it can not be giuen to the Bishop of Rome lastly to remember that the Bishop of Rome Honorius the first was condemned of heresie by the generall Councell of Constantinople allowed and approued by Agatho Bishop of Rome Wherefore take the name of Church in what sense soeuer you list be it for the company either of Gods chosen or of the called too or of the guides and Pastours or be it for the Bishop of Rome his owne person though to take it so it seemeth very absurd the Bishop of Rome him selfe if he were to be my iudge shall not be able to deny vnlesse his forhead be of adamant but that some of the Churches words are wordes of errour Now if the Bishop of Rome and Romanistes them selues be forced to confesse both that the Church saith some things which are erroneous and that the scripture saith nothing but cleere truth shall there yet be found any man either so blockishly vnskilfull or so frowardly past shame as that he dare affirme that the Church is of greater credit and autoritie then the holy scripture Pighius hath doon it in his treatise of the holy gouernment of the church Where though he in 〈◊〉 â—â—llify with gallant salues his cursed spéech yet to build the tower of his Church and Antichrist with the ruines of Christ and of the holy scripture first he saith touching the writings of the Apostles that they were giuen to the church not that they should rule our faith and religion but that they should bee ruled rather and then he concludeth that the autoritie of the church is not onely not inferiour not onely equall nay it is superiour also after a sort to the autoritie of the scriptures Plinie reporteth that there was at Rome a certaine diall set in the field of Flora to note the shadowes of the sunne the notes and markes of which diall had not agreed with the sunne for the space of thirty yeares And the cause thereof was this as Plinie saith that either the course of the sunne was disordered and changed by some meanes of heauen or els the whole earth was slipt away from her centre The Church of Rome séemeth to be very like this diall in the field of Flora. For she was placed in the Roman territorie to shew the shadowes of the sunne euen of the sunne of righteousnes that is of Christ but her notes and markes haue not agreed with Christ these many yeares togither Not that
or the hauing of it corrupted In the which respect Christ who giueth charge that his sheepe be fedde chargeth that they be taught to obserue those thinges which he commanded his Apostles And Peter hauing shewed that the faithfull are begotten a new by Gods word exhorteth them to desire the milke of the word the sincere milke not corrupt with any trumperie that they may grow thereby And they who are warned to heare the Pharises sitting in the chaire of Moses are warned to beware of the leauen of the Pharises Wherefore a church that will be whole and sound must neither be famished with want of Gods worde nor haue it corrupted But the church of Rome doth bring in both corruption and want of the worde nor onely bring them in but also maintaine them obstinatly as wholesome The church of Rome therefore is not whole and sound nay she séemeth rather to be madde frantike For she bringeth in corruption of the worde to beginne with that by mingling and adulterating the word of God with mans word not one way but sundrie First in that she giueth autoritie canonicall that is diuine autoritie to the bookes called apocrypha which are humane Against the truth of the holy scripture which is gainsaid flatly by certaine pointes in the apocrypha against the cléere euidence of thinges therein recorded which by their repugnancie one vnto another doo shew that men were autours of them against the consent iudgement of the church of the old church wholy and of the best part of the new Secondly in that she receyueth traditions of men with equall reuerence and religious affection as she doth the scripture As though the holy scripture the most exact perfect squire of Gods will and rule of righteousnesse and wisedome sufficed not for faith and maners or the spirit of God could gainsay him selfe which must be imported by this of traditions some whereof do fight one against another some against the scripture In sooth this point is handled with a dutifull care and regarde of scripture which hath no greater reuerence at Rome then traditions and that all traditions are not obserued there it is playne by the Fathers whom them selues alleage Thirdly in that she willeth the Latin translation of the Bible commonly called S. Ieroms to be receiued throughout as sacred and canonicall and not to be refused on any pretense Whereas yet to let go the iudgement of S. Ierom other ancient Fathers the Papists them selues such as are most expert in the toungs amongst them acknowledge that translation to haue missed sometimes the meaning of the holy Ghost and not the words onely Euen Pagninus namely in the old testament Budaeus in the new Andradius and Arias Montanus in them both Fourthly in that about expounding of the scripture she condemneth all senses and meanings thereof which are against the sense that her selfe holdeth or against the Fathers consenting all in one Whereby it falleth out that the sense and meaning of the holy Ghost shall be refused often but meanings and senses deuised by men though crossing one an other yet if they be currant for the time and practised as a Cardinall saith shall go for authenticall the baggage which the Schoole men haue sâ—iled Diuinitie with out of the Philosophers puddles and their owne shall be accounted holy the things which some Fathers haue handled more soundly shal be set aside as humane inuentions though they agrée with Gods word but other in the which they were ouerséene through weaknes of naturall affection or reason shall be approued as Gods worde though they procéede from mans fansie Fifthly in that she coopleth with the commandements of God the commandements of the church that is to say of men and that is more she coopleth therewith these commandements not as things indifferent but as necessarie to saluation So what soeuer filth deuotion as it is named indéede superstition hath brought or shall bring in that must be déemed to be pure religion and in vaine shall the Lord be worshipped of vs as of the Iewes in olde time with the commandements of men and good intentes as they call them which are abominable to God shall be preferred before obedience voluntarie religion condemned by the scriptures shall be taken vp as a most holy seruice of the Lord. Last of all in that she appointeth images to be had in churches for the instruction of the people as bookes so one supposeth which idiotes may reade in O miserable idiotes the instructing of whom is committed to a stocke which instructeth to vanities whose teacher is an image that is a teacher of lyes if we beléeue the Prophets And is it any maruell if they be naughtie scholers whose masters are dumbe idols the doctours of errours The church of Rome therefore hath brought in such corruption of the word of God what by the apocrypha what by traditions what by faultes of the translation what by the sense of her holding what by commandements of the church what by the teachers of idiotes that she séemeth to haue mingled the sustenance of life not with filth but with poyson and the wine of God not with water but with venoome and the bread of Christ not with leauen but with rats-bane or rather if I might speake so mens-bane As for want of Gods word which is the other cause of sicknesse how wretchedly she hath pined her children therewith our auncestours felt by long experience and aged men may remember and histories of the church doo witnesse and they who are vnder the Popish yoke know For though she permitted sometimes in some places perhaps a small parcell of the word of God if I may call that Gods word which sauoured more of mens deuises then of God to be touched in the presence and assembly of the people by common cryers preachers such as they were yet she hath not onely not permitted to Christians but also hath hindered with no lesse impietie then inhumanitie yea and hindereth still that abundance and plentie which they ought to haue as it is writen Let the worde of Christ dwell in you plenteously with all wisedome For whereas this plenty is gotten obteined by two speciall meanes to weete by hearing by reading the one commanded all in Church-assemblies publikely the other allowed priuatly to euery man at home both vsed and approued by the rules of the holy Ghost and the practise of holy companies and the iudgement of holy churches our Romanists pretending that horrible confusion will ensue thereof and the church of Christ shall be like to Babylon not to Ierusalem as Cardinall Hosius saith if the holy scriptures be read in mother toongs doo kéepe them sealed vp in a straunge toong and sound them out so in their Church-assemblies that
fruites and other policies of the Popes to the end that he and his Courtly traine may be more rich in wealth more galant in brauery more high in Princely state Hath not all Christendome borne to their griefe the yoke of the ambition and couetousnes of Rome which crieth out like Iudas what wil ye geue me There is extant in print the defense and Apologie of the Church of England shewing fresh markes of the Roman tyranny wherewith our countrie hath béen seared as with a hote burning yron There is extant a supplication of the parlament of Paris wherein the Frenchmen request their king to ease them of the cursed extortions iniuries and guiles of the Court of Rome There are extant the hundred greeuances of Germany whose complaints writen as it were with their own blood doo shew with what outrage the Sée of Rome hath throwen down oppressed brused and spoyled that most noble nation There are extant infinite bookes of lamentations writen by lerned men of al coastes quarters in the middest of the Papacy confessing all with one consent that the discipline of the church is greatly decayed The Papistes themselues in the Councell of Trent doo not confesse it onely but also witnesse it by publike writing to the world There was gathered together a Councell at Constance about an eight score yéeres since that the church might be reformed both in the head and in the members The matter not being accomplished at Constance was enterprised againe at Basill But Eugenius the fourth who was Pope then could not abide the reformation and therefore reuoked the Councell of Basill by messages and bulles which sith they disobeied he brake it vp by force of armes And whereas there was made an act by the French king with his States that sundry decrees and ordinances of that Councel should be of force in France the Popes who succéeded Eugenius neuer rested till they had gotten that act repealed The last hope remained in the Councell of Trent and truely many things were decréed there for points of reformation wisely and worthily But thrée spots of mischiefes touched by Heruetus a Papist of so much the greater weight his testimonie is against Papists doo renue the old corruptions one that the decrees although they were made were not obserued yet another that although they should be obserued yet they are not such as might restore fully the ancient good orders the last that although they restored the ancient orders yet doo they litle good because the Pope is not bound to lawes him selfe and he dispenseth with whom he list so that medicines heale not the wounds but make them woorse as long as the Pope may repeale alter peruert and breake through the decrees of the Councell with his dispensations And out of all dout that detestable clause annexed to decrees of reformation in the Councell prouided alwaies that the Popes autoritie be safe and no way preiudiced dooth shew the Roman Church to be not onely sick but also past hope of recouering her health For as in mens bodies the greater the spleene waxeth the lesser waxe the rest of the members they say so the more safe the Popes autoritie is the lesse safe will all parts of the Church be The Court of Rome with poyson strōg infected to destroy With the contagion of her sores dooth countries all anoy Wherfore to knitte vp the summe of my reason séeing it is manifest by the very euidence of the things themselues that nether the faith of Christ is taught purely nor the sacraments rightly ministred nor prayers made religiously nor discipline duely practised in the Church of Rome if the former reason of causes séeme too weake yet is it fully proued I hope by the effects that the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholike church How much more absurde were it to count her the Catholike Church The Church of Rome therefore is neither the Catholike nor a sound member of the Catholike Church I haue stayed longer in opening this Conclusion then I had purposed but I may runne ouer the last so much the more speedily For knowing how the Church of Rome is infected with pestilent diseases the contagion whereof as the lepers sore because it is daungerous to them who dwell neere it must therefore be remoued out of the campe of the faithfull we may be assured that the reformed Churches in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie and other kingdomes common weales haue seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome For that is done lawfully which is done by the warrant of the word of God all whose commaundements are righteousnesse saith the Prophet But the reformed Churches obeyed his commandement in seuering themselues from the Church of Rome Therefore they seuered themselues from the Church of Rome lawfully For as ecclesiasticall societies and Church-assemblies were ordained by God that his elect and chosen should seeke him and praise him that is learne to know him and worship him being known so where his right faith and knowledge is not taught or he is not serued and worshipped aright thence doth he commaund his seruants to depart To depart first from that Church-assemblie where his right faith and knowlege is not taught the charge is giuen to Timothee Whom S. Paul aduertising of such as taught other doctrine then he did and not the wholesome words of Christ and godly doctrine declareth the qualities and fruites of those woolues and biddeth him depart from them from such sayth Paul depart thou depart thou frō their assembly and Church For so must such teachers be departed from as himselfe declared by his example at Ephesus Where he frequented the synagogue of the Iewes for the space of three moneths But when certaine obstinate disobedient persons spake euill of the way of God before the multitude he departed from them and separated the disciples So that hée seuered not himselfe onely but others also from that Church wherein the way of God was euill spoken of and men were not taught to know and beléeue in him aright Now that we must likewise depart from that Church wherein God is not serued and worshipped aright it is writen to the Corinthians Who being admonished to flee from idolatrie and from al communion with idolatrous worship are charged not to yoke thēselues with idolaters in their assemblies méetinges For what fellowship hath righteousnesse with vnrighteousnesse light with darkenesse Christ with Belial the faithful with the infidell the temple of God with idols Wherfore come out from among them and separate your selues sayth the Lord. Separate your selues from them sayth the Lord the Lord sayth not I. The Lord sayth to the Iewes go ye not vp to Beth-auen not Hosea but the Lord sayth It is called Beth-el but it is
l Ep. 〈◊〉 Afric ad Bonifacium Câ—lestinum m Cont. Iulian. Pâ—lagâ— l. 1. c. 4. 7 〈◊〉 tempore prior loco n Epist. 16â— * 〈…〉 Chapt. 7. Diuiâ— â— o Motiu 14. The first DiuisioÌ„ a 1. Tim. 3.15 b Mal. 2. ver 7. c ver 8. d 1. Tim. 1.3 e Concil Flor. Session vlt. Laon Chalcocondylas de rebus Turc lib. 6. f Ep. 55. ad Cornelium 1 Statutum est omnibus nobis 2 Iam causa eoâ—rum cognita cit 3 Sciunt quo râ—uertantur 4 â—isi paucis desperatis perciti â—â—uinor videtur 〈…〉 g The Discouerer 〈…〉 * It is Sanders answere De vi 〈…〉 lib. â— h Lib. â— epist. 3. ad Step 〈…〉 Epiâ—t 67. Paâ— i Staplet pâ—â—nâ— doctrin l. 6. c. 17 â—he discou of 〈◊〉 3. 5 Ad coepiscopos noâ—â—ros in Gaâ—â—â—s 6 Eâ—p ouinciam ad pâ—â—ebem â— relâ—ate condâ—entem k De reformaâ— eccle consid 3. l Epist. Synod African ad cler pleb in Hispan Cyprian Ep. 68. m Epist. 67. ad Stephanum 7 Ideâ—rco â—aim â—â—pâ—osum corpuâ— est sâ—cerâ—otum concorâ—iae 〈◊〉 glutâ—no aâ—que vnitatis vinculo câ—pulas tum vt si quis ex collegio nostro 〈…〉 facere gregâ—m Chriâ—â—â—â—e 〈◊〉 〈…〉 bueniant cateri quasi paâ—â—ores vtiles misericordes quioue Domigicas in gregem colligant n Aen. Siluius Card. ep 288. o Bellaâ—min 〈◊〉 â—om controuer 4. quaest 5. p Sigon de occident imper lib. 1. q Marcellini Papae condemnaâ—â—o Tom. 1. Cancilior r As Sigonius sheweth de occident imperio lib. 1. s Synod Roma sub Siluest Pap. act 1. cap. 1. t Platin de viâ— â—otit in Marco 〈◊〉 chronogr volum 2 generat 11. Viues de caul corrupt aâ—â— lib. 2. Aâ—â—â—at parerg iur lib. 7. ca. 19. u Synod â—om sub â—iluest â—ap act 2. * That is to say For no maÌ„ with the which worces almost all the canons of the seconâ— action beginne most 〈◊〉 x Nemo enim diiâ— dicet primam sedem cap. 20 y Euseb. histor eccles lib. 7. cap. 28. 29. z Nemo vnquam iudicauit Pontificem nec praeâ—â—l sacerdotem suum a Concil Niscaen can 4. b can 5. The secoÌ„d Diuision c Can. 6. d Epist. ad Michael Imperatorem Concilior Tom. 3. Sur. * Can. 9. In the which Nicolas saith the Pope is mâ—ant and none but the Pope â—y primas dia ceâ—â—os â— whereas in very truth the Councell meant euery Patriarke thereby as I haue shewed Chapt. 8. Diuision 5. e Hist. eccle lib. 1. cap. 6. f De concord cathol l. 2. c. 13. g Synod actau gener Constanâ— can 17. h Distinct 65. câ— mos antiqâ—us 1 Quando quideÌ„ â—omano â—piscopo parilis 〈…〉 Id 〈◊〉 si nilis in qâ—â—o aâ—dam quo â—â—am vterque deponitepiscâ—â—â—s 3 Vel dic Romano id est Constantinopolitano 4 Meâ—ius planius secundum Hug. i Sigon de occi Imper. lib. 3. 4. k In summa Conciliorum 5 Metropolitaâ—â— episcopo l Carranz annot in 6. can Conc. Niâ—aen m In Concil Chalced. act 16. n Dâ—â—en sid Trident. l. 2. 5 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 6 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 o Bellarmin in praelect Rom. contr 4. quaeâ—t 5. The abridgement of controuersies Controu 3. quaest 4. 8 Ecclesia Romana semper habuit primatuÌ„ p Action 16. 9 Quod ecclesia Romana semper â—abuit primatuÌ„ * A booke so entitled touching the controuersies of our time compiled by Robert Persons out of the Dictates of the Iesuites for ouâ— English Students and vsed to be writen out by the hearers thereof in the seminaries Wherin because such libels goe in writing only among their owne Nouices they coâ— and lie more boldly theâ— commonly they dare in print As any man that hath it if he compare their tractate of the Popes supremacie with this our conâ—erence shall perceaue q Rescript Iul. Pap. contra Orient Concil Tom. 1. r Concil Nicen. edit ab Alfonso Pisano can 39. t Annot. in Dist. 16. c. septuaginta s Chapt. 8. Diuis 6. 1 In sacro nostrae ecclesiae sedis scrinio 2 Testis est diuinitas u In Concil Carthag 6. African x Epist. Aegypt episcopor ad Marâ—um Pap. Conâ—â—rom 1. y Rescript Marâ—i Pâ—p Athanasiâ— omnibus Aegypt episcop z Epist. ad orthodoxos iâ— peâ—â—equâ—t a In Chronico b Alan Cop. dialog 1. cap. 7. c cap. 12. d Conc. Cart. 6. Africanum e Conc. Catthag 6. c. 9. f Conc. African c. 102. g c. 103. h Hist. eccle l. 1. c. 6. Though he recken two twentie by diuiding some of them as can 6. 3. i In princip Concilior de sâ—nodis princip k Coâ—c Antioch can 1. Theodâ—ret hist. eccles l. 1 c. 9. l Canones decreâ—a Concil Tridâ—â—tiâ—i m Conc. Carthag 6 c. 3. n Epist. Concil Africa 1. ad Boniâ—ac Caelest c. 101. 105. o Bellarmin in praelect Rom. Contr. 4. q. 5. p Concil Nicâ—e edit ab Alâ—on Pisan. can 8. The third Diuision q Conc. Antioch can 19. r can 6. 12. 20. s can 14. t can 1â— u Conc. Sardic can 5. * That is of his Clergie of the Church of Rome whence the name of Legates a latere is taken x Epist. ad Caelestin Concil African c. 10â— y Cusan de concordant cathâ—l l. 2. c. 25. z Athan. in Apolog 2. a Conc. Saâ—dic can 3. b Theodoret. hist. eccle l. â— cap. 8. c Priuilegium personale extinguitur cum persona De regulis Iur. in sext d Sander de viâ—ib Monar eccles lib. 7. Alan Cop. dialog 1. cap. 6. e Conc. Sardic can 3. 5. f can 23. 14. g Plini hist. nat l. 17. c. 4. h Conc. ConstaÌ„â—inop can 2. i 〈◊〉 3. k can 6. 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 l Masiâ—s in Iosuam cap. 20. m Liui. lib. 1. n â—onc Afric cap. 101. o cap. 105. p Conc. Mileâ—itan can 22. * Ad â—ransmarina iudicia they terme it wherby the Pope is meant though Gratian fondly do except him 2. q. 6. c. placuit vt presbyteri q Conc. Carth. Grac. can 28. r Epist. Concil African ad Câ—lestin cap. 105. 3 Vniueâ—sale meaning a Synode of tâ—e diocese not of the whole world Concil Consâ—antinop can 6. 4 Fumosum typhum saeculi s Confess Aug. l. 1. c. 9. tit 6. t Campian Raâ—ione 4. The fourth Diuision u In sentent super petitione episcopor Cypr. x Can. 1. â—â— y Actioâ— 16. z Concil Chalced can 28. a can 9. 17. b Ann. Comneâ—a Alexiad l. 1. c Dist. 22. c. Renoâ—antes d Sext. Synod Constantinopolit in Trâ—ll can 36. 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 Non â—ameâ— magnificetur * Cop. dialog 1. cap. 5. c Praefat. synod in Trullo ad Iustinian f Synod Nicaen â—ecund can 1. g Synod octau gener Constantinopolit can
vea 27. r ver 20. s 1. Tim. 1.17 t Rom. 11.20 u Gal. 6.2 x Phil. 2.12 y 2. Cor. 12.9 z Mark 9.24 a Luk. 7.47 b Luk. 17.5 c Luk. 11.4 d De perfect obed leg Dei e Contr. Bâ—â—ntium lib. 3. f Matt. 26.15 g 1. Ioh. 2 1â— h Gal. 1.6 i 1. Cor. 11.18 15.12 k Reu. 2. ver 15. l ver 20. m Reu. 3. ver 2. n ver 15. o Reu. 1.12 p 1. Tim. 3.15 p 1. Tim. 3.15 q Reu. 2. ver 4. r â—â—r 5. * Reu. â— â—â— s Matt. 18 1â— t Ioh. 10. ver 12. u ver 10. x Bernard in â—antic Ser. 33. y 1. Cor. 3.10 z 2. Pet. 2.1 a Euseb. hist. eccles l. 7. c. 22. b Theodoret. hist. eccles lib. 1. cap. 2. c Socrat. hist. ecc l. 7. c. 29. 32. d Theodoret. hist. eccles lib. 2. cap. 16. e Hieron dial cont Lucifer cap. 7. in Chronico Athanas epist. de synod Arim. Seleuciae f In epist. ad Procopium g Can. 59. h Constantinop in Trul. can 2. Concil Nicen. secund can 1. i Can. 47. k Session 4. l Can. 6. m Capit. 5. apud Innocenâ— tert n Sess. 4. 5. o Aene. Silu. de Concil Basil Concil Flor. Ferrar. in CoÌ„cilij indict p Bristow Motiu 3 and Demaund 8. The third conclusioÌ„ q 2. Tim. 3.16 r Tit. 1.2 s Deâ—ens â—id â—riâ— lib. 1. t Registr lib. 2. â—nd 11. ep 10. 1 Temerâ— nulla ratione 2 Non afflatuâ— sancti spiritus 3 Rumoris auram inanem 4 Hominum opiniones sallaces u Concil 6. â—â—â—nor Constanâ—inop action 13. x Ecclesiast hiâ—â—rar l. â— c. â— * Non vt praeessent sed vt subcisent y Histor. natur lib. 36. cap. 10. z Mal. 4.2 a Mat. 18.17 b De bapt conc Donatist lib. 2. c. 3. a 〈◊〉 1. â— b Matt. 7.19 c 2. Pet. 2.1 d 2. King 18. â—â— e Leo. epist. 8â— ad episcopos Palaest 〈◊〉 Rheâ—or 1. Demosthen contr Aâ—â—stocrat Lucian in Anachar g Acâ— 1â— 35 The fourth Conclusion h Eph. 1 4â— i 1. Pet. 2. â— k Matt. 2â— 34 l Hebr. 12.22 Reu. 2â— 2 m Psal. 87.1 n Ioh. 10 1â— o Eph. â— 19 p Reu. 20 1â— q Gen. 17.7 Leu. â—6 12 â—er 3â— â—3 â—eb 8.10 r Heb. 12.23 s Ephes. 1 5. t Ephes. 4.16 5.23 u Esai 1.4 x Maâ—t 7.23 y Zach. 14.21 z Reu. 21. â—7 a Rom. 8.30 b Eph. 5.26 * Reu. â—9 8 c Which are named proselâ—tes Mat. 23. â—5 Act â— 10 13 4â— d Esai 5â— 2 e Mat. 28.19 f Act. 1.8 g Act. 10.28 11.2 h Galatin de aâ—â—an cathol ver lib. 9. c. 12. i Eph. 2. ver 14. k ver â—0 l Psal. 87.4 m Reu. 5.9 n Concil Constant Sess. 15. o Artic. â— p Artic. 6. q Strom. lib. 7. r In epist ad Eph. cap. 3. s Moral in Iob. lib. 28. cap. 9. t In Cantic sermon 78. u Throughout all his bookes De ciuitate Dei x De rudib catechiz cap. 20. y De bapt cont Donatist l. 5. cap. 27. z Fran. Duar. de â—acr eccles minist l. 5. c. 11. a Extra c. vnam sanctam De maioritat obedient b Catechism Concil Trid. in exposit symb c Eph. 4. â—6 d Rom. 4.7 e Matt. 5.8 f Mat. 7. ver 24. g ver 25. h Ioh. 11. ver 49 i ver 50. The fifth coÌ„clusion k 1. Pet. 1.23 l 1. Cor. 3.2 m Heb. 5.14 n Eph. 6. ver 17. o ver 16. * Psal. 50. â—5 p Reu. 12. ver 9. * That is to say an aduersary q ver 13. 17. r Mat. 13.25 s Esai 1.21 Eze. 16.15 Hof 2.2 and the rest in mâ—ny places t Gal. 1. ver â— u ver 6. 7 x 2. Cor. 11. â— y Reu. â— â—5 z Reu. 3. ver 13. a ver 1. b ver 2. c ver 4. d Matt. 3 1â— e Matt. 13.27 f 2. Tim. 2.20 g Galen de sanit tuend lib 1. cap. 2. h Appian de bell Parth. i De re militar l 3. c. 2. k 1. Pet. 1 23. â— 2.2 l Wier de praestâ—g Daemâ—n l. 3. c. 17. m Amos 8.11 n 1. Tim. 6. ver 3. o ver 4. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p â— Tim. 2.17 q Mat. 21. â—â— r Reu. 2.5 1 As Bristow Moriu 12. with this speciall note in the mâ—rgent of his booke Note the Roman church the catholike church s Cod. de sâ—mma Trin. â—ide cathol t Epist. 55. ad Coâ—nelium 2 〈…〉 by â—he epistle of Cardinall Cusanus writen to the Bohemians Cochlaeus hiâ—â—or Mussitar lib. 11. u De saâ—it tuâ—nd lib. 1. cap. â— 5. x Appendix Apolog. eccles Angl. y Apologia â—ccles Angliâ—aâ— z Ioh. 21.16 a Matt. 28.20 b 1. Pet. 1.23 c 1. Pet. 2.2 * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 d Matt. 23. â— e Matt. 16.6 f Concil Trident Sess. 4. g 3. â—sdr 4.43 5.73 Ecclesiastic 46.23 48.10 2. Mac. cap. 1.19 2.1 h 4. Esdr. 10.20 2. Maccab. 2.4 1. Maccab. 1.16 9.5 touching Antiochus Seâ— the Annotations of Franciscus Iunius on the Apocrypha i The Church of the Iewes Hier. praefat in Iudith caet lib. apocr Iosephus câ—nti Apion l. 1. Andrad desens fid Trid. lib. 3. k â—oncil Lâ—â—d can 59. Athana in synopsi sacraâ— scripturae Nazianzen in carminib Epiphan lib. de mensur ponder Hieron praesat in libr. Solâ—m l Concil Trid. Sess. 4. m 2. Tim. 3.16 See the first Conclusion n Baâ—il de spir sancâ— cap. 27. Epiph. haer 7â— o Bristow Moâ— 9. 46. Andr. â—â—fen fid Trid. lib. 2. p Concil Trid. Sess. 4. q Comment in prophet nou â—estam r August de doctr Christian. l. 16.2 cap. 15. Hilar. in Psal. 2. the rest who preferre the translation of the Seuentie inâ—erpreters See August de ciuit Dei lib. 18. cap. 43. s In epist. ad Clement sept t Annot. prior in Pandect Defens fid Trid. lib. 4. x Tom. 8. Bibli Reg. in praefat y Concil Trid. â—ess 4. z Cusan ad Bohemos ep 2. a Concil Trid. â—ess 6. cap. 10. b Matt. 15.9 c 1. Sam. 15.23 d Col. 2.23 e Concil Tâ—id Sess. 25. f Greg. registr lib. 9. ep 9. * By the word idiotae which Gregory vseth in this point he meaneth the vnlearned that can not reade things writen Of whom he saith that painting hath the same vse for idiotes which writing hath for them that reade g Iere. 10.8 h Hab. 2.18 i Col. 3.16 k Deu. 6.9 11.18 31.11 Luke 11.28 Reu. 1.3 l Nehem. 8 9. Luk. 4.17 Act. 8.30 13.15 17.11 m All the ancient Churches as appeereth by Ierom Epist. ad Laetam de institut filiae ad Demetr de virgin ad Fur. de viduit seruand By Chrysost. In Ioan. homil 16. Prooemio in epist. ad Rom. In epist. ad Col. hom 9. and the rest of the Fathers n Dialog de
trust in him stirre vp our loue towardes him and pray vnto him hartily increase our faith forgeue our sinnes in a word that we may runne the whole race of our life with greater stedfastnes and constancie Then sith these things are thus it is to be concluded that the godly are lead by the holy Ghost into all trueth and holinesse euen to saluation but to this saluation they are so lead that they are not frée from all spot and wrincle either of maners or of doctrine Touching which point on the one side in respect of maners Sebastian Castellio hath erred very shamefully holding this hereticall opinion amongst others that the regenerate are able to performe the law of God perfitly which thing it is blasphemous to affirme of any but of Christ onely On the other side in respect of doctrine Hosius the Cardinall hath ouershot him selfe as fowly saying that euerie one of the elect may erre as by S. Cyprians example he sheweth but that all the faithfull gathered together in one cannot erre which is a fansy of a man that would build castles in the ayre It is a matter therefore most sure and out of dout that the elect and chosen may erre as in maners so in doctrine too though in such sort that they shall not die but liue notwithstanding and be cured of their errors Marry that they who are not chosen but onely called may erre euen to death as well in doctrine as in maners in maners it appeereth by the example of Iudas who was brought through couetousnes to betray Christ in doctrine we may sée by those monstrous heretikes of whom S. Iohn saith they went out from vs but they were not of vs. Wherefore sith both the chosen and the called may erre the one to their triall the other to their destruction and the church militant consisteth of none but of the called and the chosen that which I proposed is prooued sufficiently that the militant church may erre not onely in maners but in doctrine also If any man for proofe thereof require examples hée hath the churches of Galatia of Corinth of Pergamus of Thyatira of Sardis and of Laâ—dicea All the which to omit examples of our owne time the scripture witnesseth to haue erred some of them in maners some in doctrine some in both Yea the very church of Ephesus it selfe which Christ shewed to Iohn in the figure of a candlesticke because it held the light of life which Timothee abode in when Paul wrote vnto him that the church is the piller and ground of the truth euen this church of Ephesus was impaired so greatly by leauing of her first loue that Christ did therefore threaten her he would remoue her candlesticke out of his place vnlesse shee repented She repented not but by litle and litle became woorse woorse and heaped faut vpon faut yea many fautes vpon one both in maners and doctrine Therefore Christ remoued her candlesticke out of his place the chosen who shined with the light of faith he gathered to himselfe the called who hated the light he gaue ouer to darkenes the shadow of death the godly he made pillers in the temple of his God the hypocrites the filth of the temple he cast out to the dunghill of the vngodly and he left the citie of Ephesus desolate to wicked Mahomets impietie Now that may befall to euery one as they say which may befall to any one Then looke what hath befallen to the Church of Ephesus that may to euery Church But the Church of Ephesus was shaken first and crased afterwarde quite ouerthrowne and being hereft of the light of Christ is now a Church no longer Then is there no Church vpon the face of the earth howsoeuer it flatter it selfe with those titles of the candlesticke of Christ piller of the truth there is no Church I say whose bodie that is the chosen may not be ouertaken with faintnesse and darkenesse whose dregges that is the hypocrites may not be consumed with rottennesse and destruction finally whose whole frame constitution may not be depriued both of strength and beautie I know that the Papists answere hereunto that the militant Church may erre for the flockes the people that are in it but the guides and Pastours whose assemblie is called the Church by Christ saying tell the Church can not Which is false and fond For as there are sheepe and goates in the flockes so the Pastours of them are good hirelinges or theeues The good ones do slumber sometimes as the Apostles the hirelinges fly assoone as the woolfe commeth the theeues come to steale to kill and to destroy Wherefore no Pastour is exempt from danger of erring more or lesse And for the former point that they may erre in maners what néede I bring Apostles or Prophets to proue it The complaint of Bernard is fresh I would to God it were not too fresh there creepeth an owgly rot at this present through the whole body of the Church Which wordes being spoken in reproof of the life and conuersation of the Prelates that is of the Bishops Pastours of the Church doo shew that not a common disease but a rot and that not small but ougly and that creeping on not kéeping at a stay may infect not onely this or that member but the whole body of Pastors for their maners Now that they may also be ouerseene in doctrine and erre in pointes of faith it is plainely proued by those Corinthian Pastours who built hay and stubble vpon the foundation that S. Paul had layde by them of whom S. Peter foretelleth that there should be false teachers in the new Church as in the old there were false prophets by Samosatenus Arius Nestorius Pastors of famous Churches and autors of most heinous heresies yea by the Bishops of the whole world who all were Arians in a maner when there were scarce left a few Catholiks when the whole world did grone wonder at it selfe that it was become an Arian But the Papistes will reply that when they say the Church caÌ„not erre they meane the Church in that sense in which the Schoole-men call it representatiue that is Bishops and Prelates representing the whole church in a generall Councell What And hath that Church I meane a generall Councell this priuilege that it can not erre They hold so in deede But what will they say of so many Councels of the Arians which caused Gregorie Nazianzene to despaire that any good would be doon by Councels But they deny these to haue béene lawfull Councels What will they answere then to those which them selues confesse to haue béene lawfull The Councell of Laodicea though a prouinciall Councell yet allowed by a generall did set downe the same Canon of the scriptures which both the olde Church had