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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A42764	A late dialogue betwixt a civilian and a divine concerning the present condition of the Church of England in which, among other particulars, these following are especially spoken of ...	Gillespie, George, 1613-1648.	1644 (1644)	Wing G753; ESTC R15751	28,350	44

this that he preserveth strengtheneth and delivereth the Church invisible and all the members of his mysticall body from the malice of the Divell and the wicked world and also ruleth and commandeth their hearts by his spirit to walk in the wayes of his obedience But that the Kingly office of Christ reacheth so farre as to the externall government and order of a visible politicall ministeriall Church that I still doubt of Divine You observe not that my argument did conclude this very thing at which you stick that Christ hath appointed a certain policy and government and certain kinds of officers for the Church because hee hath fully and faithfully discharged his Kingly office in providing for all the necessities of his Church And that hee raignes and rules in his Church not only mystically but politically considered I suppose you cannot deny if you observe that otherwise a visible politicall Church is a body without a head and subjects without a King Therefore it is the ordinary expression of our Divines against Papists that the government of the Church is partly Monarchicall in regard of Christ our King and Law-giver partly Aristocraticall in regard of the Ministers and Officers and partly Democraticall in regard of certaine Liberties and Priviledges belonging to people Civilian I would understand whether the Reformed Churches hold the forme of their Ecclesiasticall government to be jure divino for I have heard that it was introduced among them only in a prudentiall way Divine I shall give you some cleare instances of their judgement such as come to my remembrance In the Book of the policy of the Church of Scotland I read thus This power and policy of the Church should lea●e upon the word immediately as the onely ground thereof and should bee taken from the pure fountaines of the Scriptures the Church hearing the voice of Christ the only spirituall King and being ruled by his Lawes In the French confession it is said we beleeve that this true Church ought to bee governed by that Regiment or Discipline which our Lord Iesus Christ hath established ●n the Belgick Confession I find words to the same purpose We beleeve say they That this Church ought to be ruled and governed by that spirituall Regiment which God himselfe hath delivered in his word See Harm Confes. Sect. 11. If the question were only this whether the Divine right of this or that form of Church-Government is to be mentioned and held forth in the ordinance of Parliament for my part I should not contend much for that the businesse going right otherwise But it belongeth at least to the Assembly of Divines to satisfie the consciences of men by holding forth the institution and ordinance of Jesus Christ which if it bee not done our proceedings shall not be conformable to those of other Churches Civilian Well then goe on you did bring an argument from the Kingly office of Jesus Christ Let me heare what other arguments you have to make it appeare that God hath in his word descended so farre into paricularities with us as to appoint a certain forme of Church-government Divine This will appeare best when the particular forme of Church-government with the Scripturall grounds of it shall be taken into consideration This government is Iure divino Ergo a government is Iure divi●● This were too large a subject for our conference But I ●●mit you to what is largely written concerning it I shall only put you in mind that in all ages God hath by positive Lawes descended into many particularities with man Take for instance beside the positive Law before the fall the Commandement not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evill other positive Law● before the Law such as that of the distinction of clean and uncleane beasts Gen. 7. the Law not to eat blood Gen. 9. the Law of circumcision Gen. 17. Under the Law beside morall and forensicall observances there were many ceremoniall Statutes And under the Gospell Christ and his Apostles have left another Law which though it lay opon us neither many nor burthensome performances yet bindeth us to such and such things in Ecclesiasticall policy The particulars we find in the Acts of the Apostles and in the Epistles especially to Timothy and Titus and Rom. 12. and 1. Cor. 12. Civilian Many particulars of that kind there are in the Acts and Epistles of the Apostles But that those things were intended as perpetuall and binding ordinances is a great question And beside I have heard some learned men make a distinction betwixt Ius di●inum and Ius Apostolicum Divine This distinction was used by those that denyed the jus divinum of the Lords day But surely i● i● an i●● grounded distinction and those that make most use of it are forced also to distinguish betwixt Ius divinum and Ius Mosaicum holding that though God was the Author of the morall Law yet Moses no● God was the Author of the judiciall and ceremoniall Law as the Apostles did write some things as Christs Heraulds other things as Pastors or Bishops of the Churches that they were Authors of the latter promulgators only of the former and that therefore the former only were Iure divino Thus saith Salmeron but hee is in this contradicted by Bellarmine Maldonat Suarez and others Lorinus in Psal. 88.32 noteth that it was one of the errors of Valentinus and of the Gnosticks that the Decalogue only was from God and other Lawes from Moses and the Elders of Israel But what saith the Apostle himselfe after hee hath given rules concerning the policy of the Church Let the Prophets speak two or three and let the other judge and the Spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets Let your women keep silence in the Churches c. Then he addeth 1. Cor. 14.37 If any man think himselfe to be a Prophet or spirituall let him acknowledge that the things that I writ unto you are the Commandements of the Lord Doe wee not also find the laying on of hands reckoned among those cat●cheticall heads which the Apostles did deliver as perpetuall to all the Churches Heb. 6.2 Papists understand the Episcopall confirmation Dwerse of our writers understand ordination of Ministers and the severall kinds of Church officers However it is agreed on both sides it is a thing belonging to the policy of the Church not to the foundation of faith or piety I adde that the directions given to Timothy and Titus are standing ordinances for all the Churches as may be proved from 1. Tim. 3.15 and 6.14 and 2. Tim. 2.2 Civilian But Ratio mutabilis facit praeceptum mutabile The reason why there were ruling Elders and Deacons and Church-censures at that time was because there was no Chri●●ian Magistrate So that under a Christian Magistrate there is no necessity of such officers government or censures in the Church Divine I answer First there is no ground at all in Scripture for such a

distinction for the Scripture holds not out one form of Church-government for times of persecution another for times of peace But rather one form to bee perpetuall and continued till the second coming of Jesus Christ Rev. 2.24 25. That which ye● have already hold fast till I come So 1. Tim. 6.14 before cited and the like 2. Chrysostome Hom. 12. in 1. Cor. doth shew diverse sinnes for which the best Law-givers had appointed no punishment And where there are Christian Magistrates yet there are no Lawes nor civill punishments for somethings which must needs fall within the compasse of Church-discipline such as ignorance of God neglect of family worship living in malice or envy c. 3. And though the civill or municipall Lawes should reach to all offences which are supposed to fall under the verge of Church-discipline yet there is still a necessary use of both For instance a Traitor or a Murtherer being excommunicated by the Church is by the blessing of God gained to true repentance humiliation and confession whereupon hee is loosed and remitted and again received into the bosome of the Church neverthelesse the civill sword falleth upon him were hee never so penitent shall such a one either escape the civill sword because reconciled to the Church or shall he after God hath given him mercy and a great measure of repentance die under the dreadfull sentence of excommunication because Justice must bee done by the Magistrate There is no way of avo●ding great inconveniences on both sides but by holding the necessary distinct uses both of the sword of the Magistrate and censures of the Church 4. And when they are most coincident it is but materially or objectively not formally one and the same man must bee civilly punished because justice and the law of the land so requireth and that the Common wealth may bee kept in Peace and Order he must also bee Ecclesiastically censured that his soule may be humbled that hee may bee filled with godly sorrow and with shame and confusion of face and drawn to repentance if possible which the Church not the Magistrate driveth at Civilian I have heard it asserted by some learned men that among the Jewes there was no government nor discipline in the Church distinct from the government of the State yea that there was no such distinction as Church and State but that the Jewish Church was the Jewish State and the Jewish State the Jewish Church and if it was so among them whose formes you take in many particulars for patterns I would fain know why it may not be so among us Divine Though the Jewish Church and Common wealth were for the most part not different materially the same men being members of both even as in all Christian Republickes yet they were formally different one from another in regard of distinct Acts Lawes Courts Officers Censures and Administrations For 1. The Ceremoniall law given was given to them as a Church the Judiciall law given to them as a State 2. They did not worship doe sacrifice pray praise c. as a State nor did they kill malefactors with the sword as a Church 3. As the Lords matters and the Kings matters were distinguished so there were two different Courts for judging of the one and the other 2. Chron. 19.8.11 Fourthly when the Romans took away the Jewish State and Civill government yet their Church did remain 5. The government of the State and the constitution thereof was not the same under the Judges under the Kings and after the captivity shall we therefore say that the Church was altered and new moulded as oft as the Civill government was changed 6. Learned Master Selden hath rightly observed that those Proselytes who were called Prosiliti justitiae though they were initiated into the Jewish Religion by Circumcision Baptisme and Sacrifice and were free not only to worship God apart by themselves but also to come into the Church or Congregation of the Israelites and did get to themselvs the name of Jews yet were restrained and debarred from Dignities Magistracies and preferments as also from some marriages which were permitted to the Israelites He addeth a simile of strangers initiated and associated into the Church of Rome who yet have not the priviledge of Roman Citizens whence we gather most apparently a distinction of the Jewish Church and the Jewish State for as much as those Proselytes were imbodied into the Iewish Church and as Church-members did communicate in the holy ordinances of God yet they were not properly members of the Iewish State nor admitted to Civil privileges Civilian But I find no censure nor punishment of offences in the Iewish Church except what the Civill power did inflict no such censure as excommunication or separation from the Temple Synagoue or ordinances And since you have cited Master Selden for you I will cite him against you for he saith in his late Book that hee who was separate or excommunicated among the Jewes was not excluded from the Temple Sacrifices or holy Assemblies but only debarred from the liberty of Civill worship so that he might not sit within foure cubits of off his companion or neighbour Divine I shall doe M. Selden so much right as to appeal from him to himself for in another place where he writeth at greater length of the Jewish excommunication he describeth it to have been a separation not only from the former civill commerce and company in regard of that distance of foure cubits but also from communicating together in prayer and holy Assemblies And that it was so it is not only the most received opinion of Protestant Divines but even of those who have devoted themselves to the study of the Jewish Antiquities such as Drusius Iohannes Couh L'Empereur and others Brughton also in his Exposition of the Lords prayer pag. 14. c. tells us that the Jewish Church and the Apostolike Church though they differed about traditions and about the Messiah yet for government they agreed He giveth instance in these particulars the rulers of the Synagogue the readers of the Law and the Prophets the qualities of a Bishop or Elder the providing for the poor the maner of excommunication and absolution the laws to bridle Elders from Tyranny All these are the same in both saith he Now these men were most exquisitely acquainted with those studies and their Testimonies may serve instead of many more that may be added Hereunto that distinction of 3. kinds of excommunication received from Elias in Thesbyte Niddui Herem Sammatha whether we understand as some doe that Niddui was a separation according to the ceremoniall law and Herem the devoting of one to death and capitall punishment or whether we distinguish betwixt Niddui Herem which two only are mentioned in the law as we use to doe betwixt excommunicatio minor and major which is the opin●on of others Civilia●. It may be there was a separation or ejection from the Temple Synagogue