the seconde I intende to iustifie T. C. fol. 1. Sect. 4. In the. 69. page he sayth Cyprian speaking of the office of an Archbishop which is a manifest petition of the principle For it beeing that which should haue bin * It is proued sufficiently in the treaâ—se of Archbishops proued M. Doctor taketh it for graunted And in diuers places speaking of the Archbishop he goeth about to deceyue hys reader with the fallation of the equiuocation or diuers signification of the word For whatsoeuer he findeth sayde of Archbishop Bishop in times past he bringeth to establishe our Archbishops and Bishops when notwithstanding those in times past were muche different from ours and are not of that kinde as shall appeare afterwarde Io. Whitgifte As though Cyprian may not speake of the office of an Archbishop excepte he expresse his name or as though the circumstance of the place may not declare that he speaketh of suche an office But howe iustly I am heere charged with a manyfest petition of a principle I shall haue better occasion to declare when I come to answere the manyfest cauill which T. C. vseth touching that place of Cyprian Howe also in diuers places speaking of the Archbishop I go about to deceyue my reader with the fallation of equiuocation which is only sayd in this place without any maner of proofe or any one exaÌ„ple shal likewise appeare when I come to answere the replie touching that matter where it will euidently fall out that T. C. is greatly deceyued in that he supposeth the Archbishops and Bishops in times past so muche to differ from ours especially if he meane the difference to be in authoritie and office T. C. fol. 1. Sect. 5. In the. 239. page he reasoneth that for so muche as those which weare the apparel doo edifie Another vntrue collection therefore they edifie by reason of the apparell which is to make that the cause which is not but onely commeth with the cause Io. Whitgifte You deale in this as you haue done in the rest that is corruptly for the seconde reason which I there vse to proue that the apparell doth edifie is this That such as haue worne the apparell and do weare it by the ministery of the worde haue greatly edified and do dayly In the whiche argument I make not the apparell the efficient or substantiall cause of edifying but an accidentall cause For you knowe that it is an order and lawe in the Churche of Englande that none shoulde either administer the Sacraments or preache excepte he receiue the apparell appoynted forasmuche therefore as he that refuseth to weare the apparell by order of this Church may not preache and therefore can not that way edifie and he that weareth that apparell may preache and so edifie therfore the apparell per accidens doth edifie euen as the Church the Pulpit and suche other things doo whiche edifie not per se of themselues but per accidens accidentally as all other accidentall ceremonies do T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 6. In the. 240. page he reasoneth thus that the surplice c. be notes notes of good ministers therfore they be good notes of ministers which is a fallation of composition when a man thinketh that whatsoeuer is sayde of a thing by it selfe may be sayde of it when it is ioyned with another Io. Whitgifte The Admonition sayth that cappe gowne tippet c. haue the shewe of euill seeing the Popishe priesthoode is euill To the which I answering say on this sort When they were a signe and token of the Popishe priesthoode then they were euill euen as the thing was which they signified but nowe they be signes and tokens of the ministers of the worde of God which are good and therefore also they be good What can you say to this maner of speaking is it not true to say that they were signes of euill when the things that they signified were euill and nowe they be signes of good séeing the things they signifie be good and as they were euill signes when they signified euill things so they be nowe good signes bicause they signifie good things Doo we not commonly call the signes and notes good or euill euen as the things signified be good or euill None is so ignorant that knoweth not this and therefore my reason is good but your collection is like it selfe I haue vsed no other maner of reasoning or speaking in this place than M. Bucer dothe in the same matter Fol. 59. 60. And therefore this is rather spoken agaynst him than agaynst me T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 7. In the. 149. page he reasoneth thus Those which authorized the booke of Common prayer were studious of peace and buylding the Churche therefore those which finde faulte with it are pullers downe of the Church and disturbers of the peace which is a fallation of the Accident when a man thinketh that euery thing which is verified of the subiect may be likewise verified of that which is annexed vnto it The further confutation of the which arguments I referre vnto their places Io. Whitgifte The AdmonitioÌ„ sayth that those persons in which and by whom the booke of Common prayer was first authorised were studious of peace and of buylding vp of Christes Churche Wherevpon I conclude that if that be true then the defacers of that booke be disturbers of the peace Which I gather of that that they theÌ„ selues haue grauÌ„ted and as I am perswaded truely neither doo I vnderstande howe it can be made a fallation ab accidente For I thinke that the meaning of the authors of the Admonition is that these men shewed them selues desirous of peace and of buylding vp the Church euen in collecting and authorising that booke or else to what purpose shoulde they make any mention of them whiche if it be true as it is then the argument muste of necessitie followe T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 8. There be diuers other which he hath which are so farre from iuste conclusions as they haue not so muche as any colour of likelyhoode of argument whiche I can not tell where to lodge vnlesse I put them in the common inne which is that whiche is called the ignorance of the Elench As in the. 68. page when he concludeth thus * An vntruthe for there is no such aagument â–ª that Cyprian speaketh not of the Bishop of Rome Ergo he speaketh of an Archbishop Io. Whitgifte I might héere iustly quarell with you for leaping so disorderly sometimes forward and sometimes backwarde as from the. 240. page to the. 149. and from that to the 68. c. But I let al such things passe and come to the matter In the. 68. page as you quote it but in déede the. 69. after I haue declared the true meaning of Cyprian I adde that Cyprian there speaketh not of the vsurped authoritie of the Bishop of Rome ouer all Churches but agaynst the insolencie of some which despising their Metropolitane or
be not rightly and canonically called to these functions the selfe same do these men affirme T. C. Pag. 8. Sect. 2. I haue answered this in the seconde article of Anabaptisme that you charge vs with Io. Whitgifte Then haue I answered the same there also Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 6. Sect 2. Thirdly the Papistes say that our Sacraments be not rightly ministred and so say they likewise T. C. Page 8. Sect. 3. This is also answered in the thirde Io. Whitgifte That is you haue there closely confessed this to be true But that the reader may vnderstande that it is most truely verifyed of them let him peruse that which is written in the seconde Admonition fol. 43. where they saye the sacraments be wickedly 2. Admon fol. 43. ministred and in the first Admonition fol. 89. and that also that followeth in thys booke Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 6. Sect. 3. Fourthly the Papistes wholy ▪ condemne our booke of common prayers set out by publike authoritie and the whole order of our seruice in that poynt do these men fully ioyne with them also for they condemne it wholy and that with most bitternesse T. C. Page 8. Sect. 4. I answere that they doe not condemne it wholy but finde fault with it as in some poynts disagreeing with the word of God Io. Whitgifte For the proofe of this article reade the first Admonition fol. 85. 86. c. 148. c. the seconde Admonition fol. 9. 10. 38. 39. c. Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Page 6. Sect. 4. Fiftly the Papistes would not haue the Scriptures read in the Church to the people no more would they For they saye reading is not feeding but as euill as playing on a stage and worse to T. C. Pag. 8. Sect. 5. All men shall perceyue when I come to that place howe you haue racked their wordes to an other sense than they spake them in the meane season it is inoughe that they confesse that readyng in the Church is godly Io. Whitgifte It is wel that you confesse it to be godly it wil appeare when I come to that place that the authors of the Admonition both write and thinke farre otherwyse excepte they write one thing and thinke another Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. pag. 6. Sect 5. Sixtly the Papists denie the ciuill Magistrate to haue any authoritie in Ecclesiasticalll matters and so doe they T. C. pag. 8. Sect. 6. I haue answered in the (*) Where you haue not spoken one word of it tenth article of Anabaptisme Io. Whitgifte Your answere is there very confused and vncertaine but for the proofe of this article I referre the reader to certaine notes which I haue collected out of your booke touching this matter in this my defense Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. pag. 6. Sect. 6. To be short the Papistes refuse to come to our Church to Communicate with vs in the Lordes Supper and these men would not haue them by lawes and punishment compelled thervnto T. C. pag. 8. Sect. vlt. I answere that Doeg when he saide that Dauid came to Abimilech sayde nothing but truth and when they that witnessed against Christ that he sayde destroy the temple and in three dayes I will build it vp againe saide nothing but that our sauiour Christ sayde But yet Doeg was a slaunderer and the other false witnesses bycause the one spake of minde to hurte and the other vnderstoode it of another temple than our sauiour Christ ment it so although you do in parte rehearse their wordes yet taking them contrary to their meaning which might easily appeare by the circumstances I see not howe you can bee free from these faultes vnlesse it be done ignorantly which I wishe were true for your owne sake And here I wyll desire thee gentle reader to marke with what conscience this man sayth that they are ioyned and confederate with the Papistes agaynst the Church The Papistes mislyke of the Booke of common prayers for nothing else but bycause it swarueth from their Masse booke and is not in all poyntes lyke vnto it And these men mislyke it for nothing else but that it hath to much lykelyhoode vnto it And iudge whether they be more ioyned with the Papistes which woulde haue no communion or fellowship wyth them neyther in ceremonies nor doctrine nor gouernment or they which forsaking their doctrine reteyne part of theyr ceremonies almost their whole gouernment that is they that separate themselues by three walles or by one they that woulde be parted by the broade sea from them or which woulde be beuided by narrowe water where they maye make a bridge to come agayne and displace the truth of the Gospell as they haue done in tymes past They that woulde not onely vnhorse the Pope but also take awaye the styrrops whereby he shoulde neuer get into the sadle agayne or they that beyng content wyth that that he is vnhorsed leaue his ceremonies and his gouernment especially as styrrops whereby he maye leape vp agayne when as occasion serueth They that are content onely to haue cut the armes and body of Antichristianitie or they which would haue stumpe and roote all vp Io. Whitgifte Better it is to haue a bad excuse than none at all Their words and meaning is playne as shal appeare when I come to thē I thinke in déede their meaning is that they would not haue them cōpelled to come to our Churches and to communicate in the Lordes supper with vs as it is nowe ministred For it is well knowne howe they themselues refuse to do the same and howe they haue defaced both this Church and the manner and forme of administring the Sacrament what they woulde doe if they might haue their owne deuised reformation and haue the lawe in their owne handes I can not tell but it is very lyke that they woulde be sharpe and seuere inough in compelling men to come I speake of their opinion touching the compelling of men to come to our Churche vnto the whiche they come not themselues That whiche followeth in your Replie I haue sufficiently answered before Pag. 51. where I haue declared howe that it is no straunge thing for men of cleane contrarie iudgementes and opinions to ioyne togither in oppugning one and the selfe same truthe The Papistes pretende one cause of misliking the booke of Cōmon prayers and they pretende an other cause of misliking the same do they not nowe both ioyne in defacing and ouerthrowing it That which followeth is but words those things whiche they reproue in that booke be godly and moste of them not to be bettered The persons that stande in the defense of that booke haue all poyntes of Papistrie in as great detestation as they and peraduenture greater for they so occupie themselues in these externall thinges which be of small importance that in the meane time they The Admonitors gratifie the Papists slippe ouer matters of weighte and
would not gladly sée or here I told you there that Iustinus Martyr speaketh of this matter in his second Apologie and in his booke of questions and that Tertullian speaketh of the same in his booke de corona militis It hathe pleased you in that whiche followeth to Neyther dumbe nor speaking persons cā please T. C. reproue me for translating into my booke other mens opinions and authorities and here though I haue quoted the places where you may find them yet is it also your pleasure to spende your gibing and iesting eloquence vppon me for not translating them Well I will deceyue your expectation and make them speake Iustinus Martyr in his second Apology sayth that they vsed in baptising to call vpon the name of God for suche as were baptised and after baptisme to carrie hym that was baptised Iustin. Apo. 2. to the place where the brethren be gathered togyther to praye bothe for themselues and for hym also that is baptised and in the ende of their prayers that they salute one another with a kisse Likewise he there saythe that when they celebrated the Ibidem Lordes supper there was vsed certaine prayers and thankesgyuing to the whiche the people sayde Amen Also that the Deacons did gyue to the people the bread and the cuppe and carrie them lykewise to suche as were absent In his booke of questions Iustin. lib. quae he sheweth howe that singing was vsed in the Churche and commendeth it and that they vsed not to kneele at prayers on the Sunday in token of the resurrection Dyuers other suche ceremonies and orders dothe he recite vsed in hys tyme not prescribed by the worde of God but appoynted by the Church whereof some now be abrogated bycause they be not so fitte for this time as they were for that time Irenaeus speaketh very playnelye in that Epistle whyche he writte to Irenaeus Uictor Byshoppe of Rome whereof also Eusebius maketh mention lib. 5. cap. 25. 26. In that Epistle he declareth the diuersitie of diuers Churches for the daye of Easter the tyme of fasting and such like whiche plainely argueth that the scripture hath not determined all things but left muche to the disposition of the Church Tertullian in his booke aduersus Praxean saythe that the Churche then vsed tern Tertul. Idem mersione in baptismo thirst dipping in baptisme And in his booke de corona militis although he recite some thinges whiche in tyme grew to be superstitious yet dothe he there playnely declare what his opinion is in this matter he reciteth diuers customs of the Churche then vsed whereof there is no mention in the scriptures he declareth that those whiche were to be baptised must firste professe that they renounced the Deuill his pomp and his Angels and that then they were thrice dipt in the water amplius aliquid respondentes quam dominus in Euangelio determinauit answering somewhat more than the Lorde hath determined in the gospell Likewise he sheweth that the sacrament of the supper which the Lord celebrated at supper and commaunded to all was then celebrated in the morning and ministred only by those that be the chiefe And in the end he sayth barum aliarum buiusmodi disciplinarum si legem expostules scripturarum nullam inuenies c. of these and such like orders if thou shouldest require a law out of the scriptures thou shalt finde none and a litle after he addeth Annon putas omni fideli licere concipere constituere duntaxat quod Deo congruat quod disciplinae conducat quod Saluti proficiat dicente domino Cur autem non a vobis ipsis quod iustum est iudicatis doest thou not thinke that it is lawfull for euery faithfull man to conceiue and appoynte at the least that which agreeth to God whiche is conuenient for discipline whiche is profitable vnto saluation seeing the Lord sayth why do you not of your selues iudge that that is right And in his booke De virginibus Veland He hath these manifest words Regula Idem quidem fidei vna omninò est sola immobilis irreformabilis credendi scilicet in Deum vnicum ☞ omnipotentem c. Hac lege fidei manente caetera iam disciplinae conuersationis admittunt nouitatem correctionis operante scilicet proficiente vsque in fiuem gratia Dei There is only one rule of faith which alone is immoueable and not to be altered to witte to beleeue in one God the omnipotent creator of the worlde and in his sonne Iesus Christe borne of the Virgine Mary crucifyed vnder Pontius Pilate risen the thirde day from the dead receyued into Heauen sitting nowe at the righte hande of the father and shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead by resurrection of the fleshe this lawe of faithe remayning the other thynges of disciplyne and trade of lyfe do admitte alteration of amendmente the grace of GOD woorking and profiting too the ende Cyprian Lib. 10. Epist. 12. mentioneth certaine rites about Baptisme no where spoken of in the Scriptures and Lib. 4. Epist. 6. he sheweth it to haue bene the maner of the Church then to receiue the Communion euery day which the Scripture doth not commaunde Cyprian Idem Thus you sée that these Doctors be not dumbe but can speake sufficiently in that matter for the which they are alleaged And leaste you should cauill bycause I saye that others also be of the same Iudgement recyting onely Saynte Augustyne I haue caused Ambrose Ierome and Basill to beare wytnesse in the same matter The wordes of Ambrose be these After that Churches were appoynted in euery place Ambrose in Ephe. and offices ordayned the matter beganne otherwyse to be ordered c. And after that he had declared the difference betwixte the Apostolicall Churche and the Churche in hys tyme touchyng Ceremonyes and gouernmente he concludeth thus Therefore ☜ doe not the writyngs of the Apostles in all respectes agree wyth the order which is now in the Churche bycause these were written in the firste beginnings Ierome writing ad Ierome Lucinium and answering hys questions touchyng fastyng on the Sabboth daye and dayly receyuyng the Communion sayth on this sorte sed ego illud te breuiter admonendum puto traditiones ecclesiasticas presertim quae fidei non officiant ita obseruandas vt à maioribus traditae sunt Nec aliorum consuetudinem aliorum contrario modo subuerti But this thyng I thinke meete briefely to admonishe thee of that the Ecclesiasticall traditions namely suche as doe not hynder faythe are so to be obserued as they are delyuered of oure elders neyther is the custome of one to be ouerthrowne with the contrarie custome of others Basill in hys 63. Epistle written to the Ministers of Neocaesaria recyteth the manners Basill and Customes aboute publike prayers and singing of Psalmes then vsed in the Churche and there playnely declareth what hys iudgemente is touchyng thys
cōmon welth honor of the Prince than they be nowe in state and cōdition wherin they remain Bishops shal not now need to liue by pilling polling Amb. de dig sacerd August lib. 3. aduer Permenìa as it séemed they did in Cyprians tyme for he complaineth therof Ser. de lapsis Nor as some did in Ambrose or Augustins They haue God be thanked liuing sufficient with out any such vnlawfull meanes and I doubt not but if their expenses shall be compared with their predecessors it shall appeare that they be according to the proportion that God hath limitted vnto them But an eye dimmed with malice or bente to the spoyle can sée nothing that may hinder the desired purpose God roote out of the hartes of men such rauening affections and gréedie desires Of the Communion Booke Tract 9. The generall faultes examined vvhervvith the publike Seruice is charged by T. C. Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Page 102. Sect. 2. Before I come to speak of prayers I wil treat of the faults that arecomitted almost throughout the whole Lyturgie and publike Seruice of the Churche of Englande whereof one is that whiche is often obiected by the authors of the Admonition that the forme of it is taken from the Churche of Antichriste as the reading of the Epistles and Gospels so cutte and mangled as the moste of the prayers the maner of ministring the Sacramentes of mariage of burial Confirmation translated as it were worde for worde sauing that the grosse errours and manifest impieties be taken away For although the formes and ceremonies whiche they vsed were not vnlawfull and that they conteyned nothyng whiche is not agreable to the worde of God whiche I would they did not yet notwithstanding neyther the worde of God nor reason nor the examples of the eldest Churches both Iewish and Christian doe permit vs to vse the same formes and ceremonies beyng neyther commaunded of God neyther suche as there maye not as good as they and rather better be established Io. Whitgifte In these woords are conteined two false principles the one is that the forme and manner of prayer vsed in the Churche of England is taken from the churche of Antichrist the other that it is not lawful to vse the same formes of prayer and ceremonies that the Papists did this latter I haue already proued to be otherwise in the beginning Tract 7. cap. 5 diui 3. 4. c. where I spake of Ceremonies and intend hereafter to answere such arguments as shal be vsed to proue the contrarie the first wil appeare to be most vntrue being manifest that such things as we now vse in the booke of Common prayer though some of them haue ben vsed in the time of Papistrie were appointed in the church by godlie and learned men before the Pope was Antichrist or the Church of Rome greatly corrupted as the reading of the Epistle and gospell whiche is of verie long continuance in the Church euen whilest the church of Rome was as yet in the principall points Reading of gospels and epistles verie auncient of doctrine pure being also chosen places of scriptures apt for the time and moste to edifying which no honest heart and godly disposed person can discommende If in the administration of the sacraments celebration of mariage burying of the dead confirmation those thyngs that are good and profitable be reteyned and the grosse errours and Things bused maye be vsed imp eties being taken a waye manifest impieties taken away as you say they be why do you then on this sort trouble y e church for vsing that which is good refusing that which is euill Is Papistrie so able to infect the word of God godlie prayers and profitable Ceremonies that they may not be vsed in the Church reformed the errours and impieties being taken away Why doe we call our churches reformed Churches rather than newly builded or as it were wholly transformed but that we reteyne whatsoeuer we fynd to The churche is reformed not transformed be good refuse or reforme that which is euill But of these matters more is to be spoken as occasion is offered Hytherto you vse but woordes whiche haue no weyghte without good and sounde reasons Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 102. Sect. 3. For the worde of God I haue shewed before both by the example of the Apostles conforming the Gentiles vnto the Iewes in their ceremonies not contrarywise the Iewes to the Gentiles and by that the wisedome of God hath thought it a good way to kepe his people from the infection of idolatrie and superstition to seuer them from idolaters by outwarde ceremonies and therfore hath forbidden them to doe things which are in themselues verie lawfull to be don Io. Whitgifte What you haue spoken in any place of your booke cōcerning this matter is there answered wher it is spokē but you haue not as yet to my remēbrāce any wher shewed y t God euer hath forbidden his people to do things in themselues very lawfull to be done Tract 7. cap. 5 bycause the same were vsed by Idolaters I haue before proued the contrary both by the manifest words of the scripture and by the testimonie of Saint Augustine and diuers other learned writers Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 102. Sect. 4. Now I will adde this further that when as the Lord was carefull to seuer them by ceremonies from other nations yet was he not so carefull to seuer them from any as from the Egyptians amongst whome they liued and from those nations which were next neighbours vnto them bycause from them was the greatest feare of infection Therefore by this constant and perpetuall wisedome which God vseth to kepe his people from idolatrie it followeth that the religion of God should not only in matter and substance but also as farre as may be informe and fashion differ from that of the idolaters and especially the Papists which are round about vs amongst vs. (*) An vnadu sed 〈◊〉 For in deede it were more safe for vs to conforme our indifferent ceremonies to the Turkes which are arre off than to the papists which are so neare Io. Whitgifte The Egyptians and Idolatrous gentiles neither worshipped nor preteuded to The Gētiles and Papists not like in all respects worship the God of Israell and therefore no maruell though in rites and ceremonies they were vtterly seuered from them but the Papists eyther worship or pretend to worship the same God which we do and therefore there is no suche cause in all pointes of rites and ceremonies to differ from them And it is most vntrue that The Iewes and the Gentiles in some respect agreed in ceremo ies God so seuered his people from the Egyptians or other nations néere adioyning that they had nothing common with them or no ceremonies like vnto theirs for they were like in many things touching the externall forme The Gentiles had
that a great parte of the people can not of knowledge tell whether he hath cursed them or blessed them whether he hath read in Latme or in Englishe all the whyche ryseth vpon the word s of ▪ the booke of seruice which are that the minister should stande in the accustomed place for therevpon the minister in saying Morning and Euening prayer sytteth in the Chauncel with hys backe to the people as thoughe he had some secret talke with God whych the people might not heare And herevpon it is likewise that after Morning prayer for saying another nūber of prayers he clymeth vp to the further end of the Chauncel runneth as farre from the people as the wall wyl let hym as though there were some variance betweene the people the minister or as though he were afrayde of some infection of plague in deede it renueth y e memorie of the Leuitical priesthoode which dyd withdrawe him selfe from the people into the place called the holyest place where he talked wyth God and offered for the sinns of the people Io. Whitgifte This nothing toucheth the order or substance of the booke and therefore no sufficient reason agaynst it if it were true But you héerein deale as you haue done in other matters that is corruptly and vntruely For you do not reporte the wordes of Corrupt dealing the booke concerning this matter as they be in déede and it is wonderfull and argueth great impadencie that you are not ashamed to reporte vntruely in so publike a cause The words of the booke be these The Morning and Euening prayer shall be vsed in the accustomed place of the Church Chappell or Chauncell excepte it shall be otherwise determined by the Ordinarie of the place And you leauing out all the rest say that the words of the booke of seruice are that the minister should stande in the accustomed place as though it bounde him of necessitie to the Chauncell which is nothing so But you Errours and isorder maynteyned by falsifying must be borne with your errours and disorders can not otherwise be maynteyned but by falsifying I thinke there are but fewe Churches in Englande where the Bi shops haue not taken a very good order for the place of prayer if any Bishop haue neglected it the fault is in the Bishop not in the booke But still I must desire the Reader to note the weightinesse of the reasons where by you goe about to deface the booke of common prayer Chap. 1. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 2. Likewyse or marriage he commeth backe agayne into the body of the Churche and for baptisme vnto the Churche doore what comelynesse what decencie what edifying is thys Decencie I saye in running and trudging from place to place edifying in standing in that place and a ter that sorte where he can worst be hearde and vnderstanded S. Luke sheweth that in the 〈◊〉 Churche bothe the prayers and preachings and the whole exercise of religion was done otherwyse For he sheweth howe S. Peter sytting amongest the rest to the ende he myghte be the better heard rose and not that onely but that he stoode in the middest of the people that hys voyce mighte as muche as mighte be come indifferently to all theyr ear s and so standing bothe 〈◊〉 and preached Nowe if it be sayde for the Chapters and Letanie there is commaundement giuen th t they should be read in the body of the Church in deede it is true and thereof is easily perceyued thys disorder which is in saying the rest of the prayers partly in the hither end partly in y e urther end of the Chauncel for eeing that those are read in the body of the Church that the people may both heare vnderst nd what is read what should be the cause why the rest should be read further of Unlesse it be that eyther those thyngs are not to be hearde of them or at the least not so necessarie for them to be heard as the other whych are recited in the body or middest of the Churche And if it be further sayde that the booke leaueth that to the discretion of the Ordinarie and that he may reforme it if there be any thyng amisse then it is easily answered agayne that besides that it is agaynst reason that the commoditie and edifying of the Churche should depende vpon the pleasure of one man so that vpon hys eyther good or euill aduyse discretion it should be well or euill with the Church Besydes thys I sa we s e by experience of the disorders which ar in many Churches and Dioceses in thys behalfe howe that if it were lawfull to commit such authoritie vnto one man yet that it is not safe so to doe considering that they haue so euill q tten them selues in their charges and that in a matter the inconuenience whereof is so easily seene and so easily reformed there is notwithstanding so great and so generall an abuse Io. Whitgifte These be passing weyghtie arguments to ouerthrowe the booke and come from a Weighty reasons agaynst the booke déepe and profounde iudgemente If I shoulde vse the lyke you woulde wype them away with scoffing The booke appoynteth that the persons to be married shall come into the body of the Churche with their f iendes and neighbours there to be married and what faulte can you finde in this Is not the middest of the Churche the moste méete place for suche a matter The booke speaketh neyther of the comming backe of the minister nor his going forwarde these be but your iestes and yet muste he goe both backwarde and forwarde if he wil eyther come into the Church or go out of it For baptisme y e booke appoynteth no place but bicause there is no iust cause knowne why the fon e should be remoued therefore the minister dothe stande where that is placed whiche is somewhere in one place somewhere in another for I know diuers plac s where it is in the middest of the Churche some place where it is in the nethermost parte I knowe no place where it standeth at the Churche doore And therfore in saying that for baptisme the minister goeth to the Churche doore you doe but counterfeyte No man denieth but that bothe praying and preaching c. ought to be in that place where it may be best heard of all and therefore the booke dothe prudently leaue it to the discretion of the Bishop But the middest is not the fittest place for that purpose He that standeth in the middest of the Churche hathe some behynde him some before him and some of eche syde of him those whiche be behinde or on the sides can not so well heare as those that be before as experience teacheth in Sermons at the Spittle at the Crosse in Paules and other places Wherefore in my opinion that place in the Churche is moste fittest bothe for praying and preaching where the minister may haue the people before him except the
Churche be so great and the people so many that he cannot be heard of them then there ought to be some regarde thereof S. Luke telleth what S. Peter dyd in the congregation he dothe not prescribe any general rule Euery circumstance that is tolde in the scriptures is not streightway to be made an inuiolable rule of all men to be followed The place is not material so that it be suche as the people may well heare and vnderstande that whiche is read and preached Concerning the lessons whiche are to be read the booke prescribeth no place only it willeth the minister to stande and to turne him so as he may best be heard of all suche as be present And are you offended at that neyther doth y ◠booke appoynt any certein place for the Le anie to be sayde in and therfore you do but dally and trifle The Ordinarie is the méetest man to whose discr tion those things sh uld be le t both for his learning wisdome and also that there may be one vniforme or 〈◊〉 his diocesse if any Ordinarie be carelesse in such matters if you wil complaine of him I am sure you shal be heard But your delight pleasure is to be gyrding at Bishops though the cause be forged Chap. 1. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3. And the ende of the order in the booke is to be obserued which (*) 〈◊〉 is to kepe the prayers in the accustomed place of the church chappell or chauncell which howe maketh it to edification And thus for the generall faultes committed either in the whole lyturgie or in the most part of it both that I may haue no neede to repeate the same in the particulars and that I be not compelled alwayes to enter a new disputation so oft as M. Doctor saith very 〈◊〉 vnlike a diuine (*) These be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whence so euer this or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the Church of Christ. Io. Whitgifte What is the ende of the booke in that matter why do you not expresse it But you say it is to keepe the prayers in the accustomed places c. if this be the ende why doth the book admitte alteration do you not sée your solfe manifestly conuinced by the booke I beléeue and I am well assured that the ende is edification whatsoeuer you imagine to the contrarie And vndoubtedly you haue founde out maruellous weightie and wittie reasons agaynst the whole Lyturgie or the moste parte of it And the faults you haue noted be very many and excéeding great But haue you no conscience in calling good euill or are you not afrayde vpon so light quarels to make suche a schisme in the Church and to bring so worthy a booke into so great contempt Well you will one daye be better aduised I doubt not whiche truely I wishe for and hope for howe vncourteously so euer you haue vsed me That which M Doctor sayth so vnskilfully and vnlike a diuine he hath learned of better and more skilfull diuines than eyther of vs bothe be that is of Ambrose and of Caluine for the one sayth Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu sancto est All truthe of 〈◊〉 in ▪ ▪ Mat. vers 37. whom soeuer it is spoken is of the holy Ghost the other Purus est multarū erū vsus quarū vitiosa est origo The vse of many thinges is pure whose beginning is vicious and vnpure But M. Doctors bare affirmation if he had so vsed it is of as good credite as your bare negation But when he hath learned mē of his opinion and Iudgement for you thus to shift it of is but to bewray your vnablenesse to disproue it either by authoritie or reason You should at the least haue made true repor e of my words which you haue not done but delt therin according to your accustomed manner for my wordes be th se. Fol. 82. It maketh no matter of whome it was inuented in Pag. 82. sect what booke it is conteyned so that it be good and profitable and con onant to Gods worde and you reporte them thus whence soeuer this or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the churche of Christ. If you haue the truthe why doe you thus goe about to maynteyne it with lyes In so doing you hurt not me but your selfe and your cause ¶ An examination of the particular faultes eyther in matter or forme wherwith the booke of common prayer is charged Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3. Nowe I come to the forme of prayer whiche is prescribed wherein the Authors of the Admonition declare that their meaning is not to disallowe of prescript seruice of prayer but of thys fo rme that we haue (*) A prop excus for they expounde them selues in the additions vnto the fyrst parte of the Admonition Io. Whitgifte In déede they haue retracted it in some poynt which argueth they writte their booke at the first with small aduise and lesse discretion It is no exposition but a retractation or recantation for the places of Scripture which they quoted and their very wordes declare that they ment the contrary and so doth their practise in secrete conuenticles But now you come to my Answere wherein you take what you list and leaue what you list as you haue hitherto done Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Admonition The fouretenth Then ministers were not so tied to any forme of prayers inuented by mā but as the spirit (g) Rom. 8. 26 1. Tim. 1. 2 moued them so they powred forth hartie supplications to the Lord. Now they are bound of necessitie to a (h) Damasus the first inuentor of this stuffe vvell furthered by Gregory the seuenth prescripte order of seruice and boke of common prayer Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 77. Sect. 3. To proue that ministers were not so tied to any forme of prayer inuented by man but that as the spirite moued them c. you quote Rom. 8. the 1. Timo. 1. In the eight to the Romaines the wordes be these Likevvise also the spirite helpeth our infirmities for vve knovve not vvhat to pray as vve ought but the spirite it self maketh request for vs vvith fighes which cannot be expressed This place speaketh nothing against any prescript forme of prayer for then it should disallow the Lordes prayer but it teacheth vs that it is the spirite of God that sturreth vs vp to pray and maketh vs earnestly poure out our supplications vnto God And thus the spirit worketh as well by prescript prayers as by prayers sodenly inuented The wordes to Timothie Epist. 1. ca. 1. vers 2. are far fetched nothing to the purpose the wordes be these Vnto Timothie my natural sonne in the fayth grace mercie and peace from God our father and from Christ Iesu our Lorde what maketh these wordes against any prescript forme of
prayers peraduenture you would haue alleaged the 1. to Timo. 2. I exhort therefore that first of all supplications c. which maketh directly agaynst you Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 78. Sect. 1. If you meane by prayers inuented by man such prayers as man inuenteth against the worde of God as prayer for the dead prayer vnto saincts such like then it is true that you say But if you mean such prayers as by godly men be framed according to the holy scriptures whether they be for matters perteyning to the life to come or to this life then you shew your ignorāce for it is manifest that there hath bene alwayes in the Church of Christ a prescript forme of publike prayer as it appeareth in Iustinus Martyr Apol. 2. Pro Christianis other Iustinus Martyr auncient fathers neyther did euer any learned or godly man or reformed Church finde faulte herewith or not greatly cōmende the same except onely the secte of Anabaptistes T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. vlt. Pag. 106. Sect. 1. It is not to any purpose that M. Doctor setteth himself to proue that there may be a prescript order of prayer by Iustine Martyres testimonie which notwithstanding hath not one worde of prescript forme of prayers only he sayth there were prayers he sayth in deede the auncient fathers say that there hath bene alwayes such kinde of prayers in the Churches and although they do say so yet all men may vnderstand easily that M. Doctor speaketh this rather by contecture or that he hath hearde other men say so for so much as that Doctor which he hath chosen out to speake for ll the rest hath no such thing as he fathereth on him He sayeth that after they haue baptized they pray for themselues and for him that is baptized and for all men that they may be meete to learne the truth and to expresse it in their honest conuersation and that they be founde to keepe th mmaundementes that they may atteyne to eternall life but is this to say that there was a prescript forme of prayer when he sheweth nothing els but the chiefe poynts vpon the which they conceyued their prayers If you had alleaged this to proue what were the matters or principall poynts that the Primitiue Churche vsed to pray for you had alleaged this to purpose but to alleage it for a proofe of a prescript forme of prayer when there is not there mentioned so much as the essentiall forme of prayer which is the asking of our petitions in the name and thorough the intercession of our Sauiour Christ without the which there is not nor cannot be any prayer argueth that eyther you little know what the forme of prayer is or that you thought as you charge the authors of the Admonition so often that this geare of yours should neuer haue come to the examination But for as much as we agree of a prescript forme of prayer to be vsed in the Church let that go this that I haue sayde is to shew that when M. Doctor happeneth of a good cause which is very seldome in this booke yet then he marreth it in the handling Io. Whitgifte I haue the lesse laboured in this point bicause it is a thing so generally allowed of in all Churches in all times and so vnlearnedly impugned by the authors of the Admonition Iustinus Martyr maketh much for my purpose for in that he doth rehearse those chiefe poyntes of theyr prayers then vsed it is manifest that they had a prescript order and forme of prayer the which no man can denie that readeth the place I graunt that these wordes prescript forme of prayer are not there to be founde Yet is there a prescript order and forme by him generally described whereby it is more than probable that at that tyme there was vsed a prescript forme of prayer In the 3. Councell Con Carth. 3 Can. 23. of Carthage we finde this Canon Let no man vse the formes of prayer which he hath framed to himselfe without conference with brethren that are better learned Whereby it may euidently be gathered that at that time there was a prescript forme of prayer vsed and that it was not lawfull to vse any new forme of priuate prayers except the same were allowed by the brethren But for as much as in this poynt you consent with me and graunt that there may be a prescript forme of prayer I will omitte whatsoeuer I had purposed to haue sayde more in that matter and so I will do also your taunts respecting the matter rather than Lucians Rhetoricke Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 78. Sect. 2. 3. Damasus was a good Bishop therfore no good thing by him appointed Damasus added Glori Patri c ▪ to be disallowed but he did not first ordeyne a prescript forme of publike prayers he onely added something therevnto As Gloria patri c. to the end of euery psalme And decreed that Psalmes should be song aswell in the night time as in the day time in euery Church but they were song in the Church before and as I haue sayde there was a prescript forme of prayer in Iustinus Martyrs time who was long before Damasus Gregorie added the Letanie onely I muse what you meane to Gregory made the Letanie write so manifest vntruthes Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 79. Sect. 1. You note not here neyther are you able any prayer in the whole Cōmunion booke wherein there is any thing not agreeable to Gods worde we may say as S. Augustine sayth in his 121. Epistle written Ad Probam viduam Etsi per omnia praecationum sanctarum verba discurras quantum existim Augustine nihil inuenies quod non ista Dominica contineat concludat orati Vnde liberum est alijs atque alijs verbis eadem tamen in orando dicere sed non debet esse liberum alia dicere And if thou runnest thorough all the vvordes of the holy prayers I suppose thou shalt finde nothing vvhich the Lordes prayer doth not conteyne and comprehende therefore vve may in other vvordes speake the same thinges in our prayers but vve may not speake contrarie things T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 1. 2. After he a irmeth that there can be nothing shéwed in the whole booke which is not agreeable to the worde of God I am very loth to enter into this fielde albeit M. Doctor doth thus prouoke me both bycause the Papistes will lightly take occasion of euill speaking when they vnderstande that we do not agree amongst our selues in euery poynt as for that some fewe professoures of the Gospelt being priuate men boldened vpon such treatises take such wayes sometimes and breake forth into such speaches as are not meete nor conuenient Io. Whitgifte In so saying I do fullie agrée with such as haue
our owne vnworthinesse If a man be desyrous to obteyne anye thing at his father or fre des hande of whome he hath receyued many things and not recompenced the least is not this a méete kynde of speache for him to vse there is something necessary for me to haue but I dare not aske it at your handes for my vnworthynesse who haue receyued so much already without any kynde of recompen e surelye this is both the next waye for hym to obteyne that which he desyreth and a good tóken not of seruile feare but of true humilitie and of that due reuerence that a good childe oweth to a moste naturall and louing father The Publicane durst not come nighe nor lifte vp his eyes so did he acknowledge his vnworthynesse such was his humilitie And yet you knowe what Christe did pronounce of hym and what generall rule he groundeth Luc. 18. vpon that example euen this Omnis qui se exaltat c. Euery one that exalteth hymselfe shall be brought lowe c. You knowe also what the prodigall sonne sayde to his owne father after his father hadde embraced hym and receyued hym into mercy Luc. 15. Neque posthac sum dignus qui vocer filius tuus And I am no more worthy to be called thy sonne God forbyd that we should so presume of our selues that we should shut humilitie and the acknowledging of our owne vnworthinesse from faythfull and heartye prayer In that therefore we saye for our owne vnworthynesse we dare not aske it we both aske it and yet with all humilitie acknowledge our owne vnworthinesse which if it be spoken vnfainedlye cannot be but greately accepted of God And surely this kinde of begging is moste effectuall and it is vsed towardes those to whom we thinke our selues most bounde and whome for their benefites bestowed vpon vs we loue most derely Neither doth this kynde of prayer sauoure of mistruste but rather of greate confidence in the mercy of God at whose handes we craue those things which we are of our selues vnworthy to aske or receiue Chap. 2. the. 11. Diuision Admonition They praye that they may be deliuered from thundring and tempest when no daunger is nigh that they syng Benedictus Nunc dimittis and Magnificat we knowe not to what purpose except some of them were ready to die or except they would celebrate the memorie of the Uirgin Iohn 〈◊〉 c. Thus they prophane the holy scripture Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 202. Sect. 4. You mislike also that we should praye to be deliuered from thundring and Prayer to be deliuered from thunder good tempest when there is no daunger nighe You broch many straunge opinions may not we praye to be deliuered from perilles and daungers except they be present and knowen to be at hande where finde you that Christ teacheth vs to saye in our daily prayer libera nos à malo deliuer vs from euil VVhat knovve vve vvhen there is any daunger of thundring and lightning haue vve not examples of diuers that haue sodainly perished vvith the same Is it not therefore necessary to praye for deliueraunce from thunder and lightning as wel as from other daungers though they be not present well men may see wherevnto this geare tendeth if Magnificar Nunc dimittis c. they be not blinde Benedictus also Nunc dimi tis and Magnificat be great motes in your eyes but you shewe no reason worthy to be answered only in derision you saye except some of them were ready to die or would celebrate the memorie of the Virgine or Iohn Baptiste As though these Hymnes or Psalmes were not profitable for all men as the reste of the holy scripture is but these especially bicause they conteine the misterie of our saluation and the praise of God for the same By this your reason we may not vse any of the Psalmes vntill we be in lyke case as Dauid was or other when they were first made But I thinke nowe the time is come when those shall correcte Magnificat Qui nesciunt quid significat Truly this your doing is a mere prophanation of holy scriptures T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 2. And if all the prayers were gathered togither and referred to these twoo heades of Goddes glorie and of the thyngs which perteyne to this present lyfe I can make no Geometricall and exacte measure but verily I beleue there shal be founde more than a thyrd parte of the prayers which are not Psalmes and textes of scripture spent in raying for and praying against the incommodities of this life which is contrarie to all the argumentes or contentes of the prayers of the church which are et downe in the scripture and especially of our sauiour Christes prayers b the whiche ours ought to be directed which of seuen petitions bestoweth one onely that wayes And that these fo esayde prayers doe not onel in generall wordes but by de uctyng the commodities and incommodities of this lyfe i to theyr particular kyndes that we praye for the auoyding of those daungers which are noth g neare vs as from lightning and thundring in the myddest of wynter from stor e tempest when the weather is most faire and the seas most calme c. It is true that vpon some vrgent calamities prayer may and ought to be fra ed which may begge eyther the commoditie for want whereof the churche is in distresse or the turning away of that mischiefe whiche eyther approcheth or which is already vppon it but to make those prayers which are for the present tyme and daunger ordynary and daily prayers I cannot hitherto see any either scrupture or example of the primitiue churche And here for the symples sake I will set downe after what sort this abuse crept into the churche Io. Whitgifte I thinke you doe confesse and acknowledge that it is lawefull to praye for things whiche perteine to this present lyfe if you should denie it I coulde confute you by the prayer that Iacob made to be deliuered from the handes of his brother Esau Ge 32. and by sundrye of the Psalmes and diuers examples in the Gospell of such as craued the like thinges at Christes handes and obteined their desyre howe many such prayers be in the booke of common prayer it skilleth not so long as you cannot proue them to be other than godly and necessarie If in euery prayer we make some petition for temporall thinges we doe but imitate and followe that prayer which Christe hath prescribed vnto vs both as a moste necessarie prayer and as a rule also to frame and forme all our prayers by You might as well proue that we ought not so often to aske remission and forgiuenesse of our synnes bicause of seuen petitions there is but one onelye bestowed that waye Howe farre therefore this reason is from godlynesse and reason the godly and reasonable Reader may i dge All things to be prayed for tende to the glorie of God All
There is no abuse of Magnificat as yet shewed but there is a very vnlearned reason in the Admonition put why it should not be vsed to the Answere whereof you haue not replied and therefore I may iustly say of their correcting of Magnificat that which I haue sayde and the Prouerbe is méete for such vnskilfull persons but your childish or rather prophane iestes and scoffes be not séeming for a Diuine and him that would he counted so greatly learned and mortified Chap. 2. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 108. Sect. 3. As these are diuers things more than ought to be conueniently so want there some things in the prayers there are prayers set forth to be sayd in the common calamities vniuersall scourges of the realme as plague famine c. And in deede so it ought to be by the worde of God ioyned with a publike faste cōmaunded not only when we are in any calamitie but also when any the churches rounde about vs or in any countrie receyue any generall plague or grieuous chastisement at the Lordes hand But as such prayers are needefull whereby we begge release from our distresses so there ought to be as necessarily prayers of thankes giuing when we haue receyued those things at the Lordes hande which wee asked in our prayers And thus much touching the matter of the Great faultes in little matters prayers eyther not altogither sounde or else to much or to little Io. Whitgifte If any thing lacke in the booke that derogateth nothing from that which is good godly in the same neyther is it any cause why any man should depraue it or make such a stirre and schisme in the Churche for it It is méete that we should as well giue thankes for the benefites receyued as to pray for the receyuing of them neyther is the booke voyde of any suche kinde of prayers These be vut verie small quarels agaynst the booke and slender faultes if they were faults to make so great a schisme for But as I sayde with S. Augustine August Epist. 121. agaynst the Authours of the Admonition so say I vnto you If thou runnest through all the wordes of the holy prayers I suppose thou shalt finde nothing which the Lordes prayer doth not conteyne therfore we may in other wordes speake the same things in our prayers but we may not speake contrarie things You haue not as yet neyther will you euer be able to shewe one lyne in any prayer conteyned in that booke to be contrarie to the worde of God or not consonant or agréeable vnto the same And this dealing of yours agaynst it vpon so weake reasons or rather none at all argueth that you séeke only contention and that your chiefe quarell is at the mainteyners of the booke and not at the matter Chap. 2. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Pag. 108. Sect. 4. Concerning the forme there is also to be misliked a great cause whereof is the following of the forme vsed in Poperie agaynst which I haue before spoken For whylest that seruice was set in many poynts as a patterne of this it commeth to passe that in steade of such prayers as the primitiue Churches haue vsed and those that be reformed nowe vse we haue diuerse (a) These are seemely terme ▪ for Godly prayers be they re so sho t short curtes shreddings which may be better called wishes than prayers And that no man think that this is some ydle fansie and that it is no matter of weight what forme of prayer we vse so that the praiers be good it must be vnderstanded that as it is not sufficient to preach the same doctrine whiche our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles haue preached (b) Where learn you that ▪ vnlesse the same forme of doctrine and of teaching be likewise kept so is it not ynough that the matter of our prayer be such as is in the word of God vnlesse that the forme also be agreeable vnto the formes of prayers in the scripture Nowe we haue no such formes in the scripture as that we shoulde pray in two or (c) The Lordes prayer is not much more the prayers of the publican of Steuen of Christ on the Crosse are much lesse three lynes and then after hauing read a while some other thing come and pray as much more and so to the. xx and. xxx tune with pawses betweene Io. Whitgifte You haue verie aptly answered your selfe though you woulde séeme to make it an obiection and to wipe it away for vndoubtedly when you thought that other men woulde count this d uise of yours an ydle fansie you thought truely and your owne thought therein condemneth you But I adde that it is not onely an ydle fansie but an vntrue surmise for first which be those prayers that the primitiue Churche vsed in steade whereof we haue but short cuttes and shreddings Why doe you not name them Will you still speake without proofe Will you rayse vp a generall slaunder and shew no particulars Touching your charging vs with following of the forme vsed in Poperie I haue answered before where you haue in like maner obiected it and onely obiected it Howe proue you that it is not sufficient to preache the same doctrine that our Sauiour The fensie of the plyer concerning the forme of preaching Christ and his Apostles haue preached vnlesse the same forme of teaching bee lykewyse kepte For I take that to be an ydle fansie and vtterly vntrue I am perswaded that if the same doctrine be preached the maner and forme of preaching is left for euerie one to vse according to the gift that God hath giuen vnto him as he shall thinke it to be most expedient to edifying but this is an olde fansie of yours partly grounded vpon an arrogant opinion of your selfe whose maner and forme of preaching you woulde binde all men vnto partly of emulation and enuie bicause you haue perceyued other mens maner and kinde of preaching to haue béene much better lyked than yours But to let this passe Christ and his Apostles did not vsually pray before nor after their Sermons or at the least it is not expressed in Scripture that they did they when they preached did not vsually take any one certaine place or portion of Scripture to intreat of and it is manifest that they vsed not any vniforme maner of preaching but they spake as God gaue them vtterance neyther did they labour or studie for their Sermons but preached as present occasion serued and therefore for my part vntill I heare verie good reasons of this newe deuise I must néedes accompt it a verie fonde imagination Shewe me wherein the forme of our prayers doth differ from the maner and forme of praying conteyned in the Scripture Or shewe me in the Scripture any prescript forme of publike and dayly prayers commaunded the Lordes prayer onely excepted Or let me vnderstande what scripture you can alledge why in the publike congregation we may
not be ignorant that the whole drifte of the Cōmunion booke is to moue The intent of the booke is to moue all men to communicate all men to ofte communicating and that togither as it manifestly appeareth in the first exhortation in the booke prescribed to be read when the Curate shall sée the people negligent in comming to the Communion the which if you had well peruse you would haue as I think cutte off much of this talke If the booke should appoynt that thrée or foure should communicate togither no more or if it did not allow that Communion best wherein most of the Church doe participate then were your reasoning to some ende but séeing that it is appoynted that there shoulde not be fewer than thrée or foure to the ende that it might be a Communion and haue no similitude with the Papisticall Masse there is no cause why you should take this paynes And surely he that shal compare that exhortation in the booke with this discourse of yours it will be no harde matter for him to iudge how much more pithily and effectually Thre or foure a sufficient number if other will not communicate this matter is there handled than it is here by you But that thrée or foure shoulde be a sufficient number to communicate if other will not there is good cause for séeing the holy Sacrament is a Seale and confirmation of Gods promises and an effectuall applying of the death and passion of Christ vnto vs and therefore a singular comfort and reliefe to the afflicted conscience and minde touched with the féeling Thre or foure a cōgregation Math. 18. of sinne why shoulde those that be desirous of it béeing a congregation as thrée or foure is according to the saying of Christ where two or three be gathered togither in my name c. be debarred from their Godly desire and that singular comfort for the carelesnesse securitie negligence or lacke of such féeling of others Shall none communicate bycause all will not Or shall not thrée or foure because the rest refuse Or is it lacke of loue towardes our neighbour or any token thereof if we resort to the Lordes table when other will not Where learne you that The place of S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. is not aptly applyed For the Apostle in that place reproueth onely such as contemptuously or contentiously did separate themselues from other as well in the publike feastes called Loue feastes and then vsed in the Church as in the Supper of the Lorde But he rather meaneth of the first than of the Martyr in 1. Cor. 11. latter and therfore sayth M. Martyr vpon that place The Supper is here called priuate eyther bycause some did chalenge to themselues priuately that whiche belonged to all or else bicause euerie one after the receyuing of the holy mysteries did take againe to himselfe those things which he had offered at the Lordes table and made that his owne whiche by right belonged to all And againe he sayth that the Corinthians be there reproued Bicause they pampered their bellie and contemned their brethren I tolde you before what M. Caluine thought of this place it can in no respect tende to the disallowing of any order appoynted in the booke of common prayer bicause no man is secluded from the Communion that will come and those that come when other men will not do it not of contempt or of contention but of conscience and pietie Moreouer wée haue no such banquettes or feastes eyther before or after the Communion as the Corinthians had and therefore in that respect there can be no suche abuse as the Apostle there reproueth Chap. 6. the. 8. Diuision Admonition Sixthly in this booke three or foure are allowed for a fit number to receyue the Communion and the Priest alone togither with one more or with the sicke man alone may in tyme of necessitie that is when there is any common plague or in tyme of other visitation minister it to the sicke man and if he require it it may not be denyed This is not I am sure lyke in effect to a priuate Masse that Scripture (f) Mat. 26. 27 Mar. 14. 23 drinke ye all of this maketh not agaynst this and priuate Communion is not agaynst the Scriptures Ansvvere to the Adm onition Pag. 185. Sect. 1. How vntruly these men charge the Church with priuate Communions I haue shewed before The place of scripture here alledged to proue that three or foure be not a sufficient number to communicate No number determined to be at the Cōmunion is this drinke ye all of this Mat. 26. Mark 14. which may as well be applyed to proue that ten twentie fortie is no sufficient number I know not what your meaning is except you thinke no number sufficient vnlesse al do communicate togither bicause Christ said drink ye all of this This text proueth that all ought to be partakers of the Lordes Cuppe but it doth not determine any certaine number of Communicants I knowe there be some of the olde fathers as Basilius Basill would haue xii at the least Magnus which would not haue fewer Communicants than xii But of the number of Communicants there is nothing determined in Scripture neither is it materiall so that there be a number that it may be a Communion T. C. Pag. 117. Sect. 1. These things being considered the reason which the Admonition vseth in the. 185. page where this matter is spoken of which is drink you al of this is not so ridiculous as M. doctor maketh it For although it do neyther proue that 12. or 20. or any other definite number must of necessitie receyue yet it proueth that as all they which were present did communicate so as many as in the Church are fit to receyue the Sacraments or may conuetently receyue them togither should follow that example in celebrating the supper togither Io. Whitgifte The booke of common prayer doth greatly commend and like the receyning of the whole Church togither but if that can not be obteyned as it cannot and they will not haue men compelled vnto it it secludeth not those that be well disposed so they be a competent number And the booke doth exhort those to depart which do not communicate with a warning from whence they depart so that you may well vnderstand that the meaning of the Booke is that all that be present should communicate Neither can this place of scripture be drawne to improue the decrée of y e Church therin For Christ had 70. other disciples and his mother with diuers other which followed him that were not present at that Supper as no doubt they should haue béene if by that example he had ment to haue made a law that there may be no Cōmunion vnlesse the whole congregation of euery particular Church do communicate togither Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 117. Sect. 1. And it is probably to be thought that if our Sauiour
Euensong neyther can they be brought to the contrarie and yet the prayers be not the worse so they call the day of Christes natiuitie Christmasse c. what is this to condemne the things themselues But you say this terme doth import nothing else than a banishment from the Church c. so might you say that these names Sunday Monday do import y t we dedicate those days to the Sunne Moone and so likewise might you say of the other names reteyned in the cōmon and vsuall speache but all men would then espie your folly euen as they may do nowe if they be disposed The absence of the woman after hir delyuerie is neyther banishment nor excommunication as you terme it but a withdrawing The true cause of the absence of the woman after hir deliuerāce of the partie from the Churche by reason of that infirmitie and daunger that God hath layde vpon woman kinde in punishment of the first sinne whiche daunger she knoweth not whether she shall escape or no and therefore after shee hath not onelye escaped it but also brought a childe into the worlde to the encrease of Gods people and after such tyme as the comelinesse of nature maye beare she commeth firste into The cause of hir thankesgiuing the Churche to giue thankes for the same and for the deliueraunce by Christe from that sinne whereof that infirmitie is a perpetuall testimonie And this being done not Iewishly but Christianly not of custome but of duty not to make the act of lawfull matrimonie vncleane but to giue thankes to God for deliueraunce from so manifolde perilles what Christian hearte can for the names sake thus disallowe of it as you doe The comming so neare the communion table is a verye small matter to carpe at it is thought to be the moste conuenient place both for the minister for the woman especially if she be disposed to receiue the holy Communion But such trifling quarrels argue an extreame penurie of good and substantiall reasons The paying of hir accustomed offrings which you séeme moste to mislike as your selfe confesse the meaning of the booke to be hath no such purpose and intent as you would make the Reader to beleue neither can it for she neither offereth Lambe Turtles or Leuit. 12 yong Pigeons as the lawe requireth but payeth to the Curate his accustomed dutie which both she may as lawfully giue and he receiue as the other tenthes may be payde and receyued It is a portion of the Pastors liuing appointed and limitted vnto hym by the Churche and therefore he may lawfully receiue it as it is appointed vnto him And all your obiections to the contrary are hereby answered fully Chap. 7. the. 2. Diuision Admonition In which booke a great number of things contrary to Gods worde are conteyned as Iewish (b) Act. 15. 10. purifyings c. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 81. Sect. 4. The thirde is the Iewishe purifyings as you terme it you cite for that purpose Act. 15. where Peter speaking against certeyne of the Pharisies which beleued and taught that it was nedeful for the Gentiles which were conuerted to be circumcised and to obserue Moses lawe saith on this sorte Novve therefore vvhy tempte ye God Act. 15. to laye a yoke on the disciples neckes c. Howe any thing here conteined prohibiteth women after they be deliuered from the great danger and paynes of child bearing to giue in the congregation thankes for their deliuerance let the godly Reader iudge Surely this is no Iewishe purifying but Christian giuing of thankes most consonant and agreable to the worde of God But hereof also some thing more is to be spoken in an other place T. C. Pag. 119. lin 24. Nowe whereas M. Doctor sayth that the place of the 15. of the Actes alleaged by the Admonition maketh nothing against this he should haue considered that if it be a Iewyshe ceremony as they suppose it it is to be abolished vtterly For it being shewed there that all the Ceremonial law of Moses is done awaye through our Sauiour Christe this also a parte thereof muste needes be therein comprysed Io. Whitgifte The place nothing perteyneth to this purpose neither is giuing of thankes a Iewysh Ceremonie and therefore their supposition is but vayne Chap. 7. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 119. in the midst And whereas he sayth that it being nothing else but a thankesgiuing for hit deliuerance cannot be therefore but Christian and very godly I answere that if there should be solemne and expresse giuing of thankes in the Churche for euery benefite either equall or greater than this which any singular persone in the Churche doth receyue wee should not onelye haue no preaching of the Theod. li. 4 cap. 11. worde nor ministring of the Sacramentes but we shoulde not haue so much leysure as to doe any corporall or bodely worke but should be lyke vnto those heretykes which were called of the Syriake worde Messalians or continuall prayers and which did nothing else but praye Io. Whitgifte Truthe is neuer contrary vnto it selfe before you reproued the booke of Common prayer for want of thankesgiuing for benefites receiued and now you reproue it for appointing thankes to be giuen for deliuerance from sinne from manifolde perils Pag. 108. Sect. 3. and daungers and for the encrease of Gods people all which things are publike although thankes be giuen by a priuate person for in dede the punishmēt and daunger layde vpon all womankinde for disobedience is not onely common but very notorious and a perpetuall testimonie of our subiection vnto synne and therefore requireth a solemne thankesgiuing at such time as it pleaseth God to shewe his mercie therein and to deliuer from ill And yet if it were not so where reade you that any priuate persone is forbidden to giue thankes in the publike congregation for some especiall benefit receiued namely if the Churche thinke it conuenient and agrée thervnto as it doth to this Theodoret sayth that the Messalian heretikes had these errours firste they being The errors of the Messalians Theod. lib. 4. cap. 11. possessed with a Deuill which they thought to be the holy spirite did condemne all bodily labour as wicked secondly they being giuen to much sleepe did name the visions of their dreames prophesies thirdly they sayde that the supper of the Lorde and Baptisme did neither good nor harme to any man fourthlye when they were charged with such things they would not stande to them but impudently deny them last of all they taught that euery man when he is borne doth take of his parentes as the nature so likewyse the seruitude of Deuils which being driuen out by diligēt praier the holy spirit entred in c. This is all that Theodoret in that place reporteth of those heretikes the which howe much it maketh against either diligent or continual prayers Luc. 18. Rom. 12. Epbe. 6. Coll. 4. or thankesgiuing for
when he glorieth in troubling them yet that of all is most vntollerable that besides the iniurie which he dothe them he is angry that they wyll not lay handes of them selues by casting themselues out of their liuings or euer they be cast out by him Tully maketh mention of one C. Fimbria whiche when he had caused Q. Sceuola a singular man to be wounded and sawe that he dyed not of it conuented him before the Iudges and beeing asked what he had to accuse him of answered for that he dyd not suffer the whole weapon wherewith he was striken to enter into hys body euen so M. Doctor contenteth not him selfe only to doe iniuries vnto men but accuseth them also that they will not doe it vnto them selues or that they would not willingly suffer his weapons enter so farre as he would haue them Io. Whitgifte I trust there is not one that can iustly saye I haue without great cause molested him if there be any suche or whome I haue by any meanes iniuried I refuse not to answere and to satisfie him yea it is my desire that it maye come to the triall so shall many slaunderous spéeches togither with the authors of them be founde as they are C. Fimbria was a very proude sedicious Romane and one that disquieted the C. Fimbria Q. Sceuola state of the common wealth and greatly enuied his superiours Q. Sceuola was a wyse and a prudent Senatour one that liued in authoritie and obserued lawes him selfe and caused the same to be obserued by other Sceuola surely you can not be for you are neyther of that credite for wisdome nor of that authoritie in the cōmon wealth nor so diligent an obseruer of good orders and lawes your conditions come nearer to Fimbria I will not conclude you shall doe it your selfe If I haue done you any iniurie prosecute it to the vttermoste and spare not I neuer entreated you to holde your peace The greatest iniurie that I acknowledge my selfe guiltie of is vnto the Colledge that I so long suffered you contrarie to your expresse othe to vsurpe a place therein to the great hinderaunce and disquieting thereof T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2. What conscience is there that bindeth a man to depart from his liuing in that place where he liketh not of all the orders which are there vsed Is it not inough to abstayne from them if there be any euill in them or to declare the vnlawfulnesse of thē if his calling do suffer him when as the reformation is not in his power And if eyther of this absteyning or declaration of thys vnlawfulnesse of them troubles be moued there is no more cause why they should giue place than the other which like of those disorders yea there is lesse cause for that they are not the causes of trouble but the other and for that by their departure out of their places roome is made for those which will lyke of those disorders whiche the other misliked whiche is to the hurte of that companie or congregation in suche places Io. Whitgifte If he be sworne to kéepe those orders kéeping his liuing if as honest men as he is will lyke of them If his equals or rather betters might supply his place I thinke he ought rather to satisfie his othe or to refuse his liuing if he wyll auoyde periurie yea though there were no such méete persons to succéede him But if the case be this that a man shall directly sweare eyther to doe such a thing by such a tyme or to leaue his place if by that time he neyther do the thing by othe required nor leaue his place but still vsurpe the same at the least the space of fiue yeres I thinke he ought to be displaced for periurie whiche is a greater matter than eyther cappe or surplesse I doe but nowe put a case that men may vnderstande euery man that is displaced not to be displaced without great and vrgent occasion I woulde not enter into thys vayne if I were not vrged Therefore to answere in one worde for all I haue put no man out of his liuing but there is greater cause why he should be ashamed to cōplayne of iniurie than I to doe according to my othe and duetie T. C. Pag. 156. tovvards the ende And as for M. Doctors easinesse to depart from his liuing rather than he woulde cause any trouble he giueth men great cause to doubt of whiche hauing diuers great liuings and amongest them a benefice is very loth to goe from troubling of others to doe his duetie at any of them It is true that the Church of England may haue an order whervnto it may iustly require the subscription of the ministers in Englande And so is it likewyse vntrue that we desire that euery one shoulde haue his owne fansie and lyue as him listeth for we also desire an vniforme order but suche and in suche sorte as we haue before declared As for the olde accusation of Anabaptisme and confusion it is answered before therfore according to my promise I will leaue your words and if you haue any matter I will speake to that Io. Whitgifte This was obiected and answered before God knoweth my heart and I am ready to giue myne accompte when I am therevnto by order called orders you wyll admitte but suche as pleaseth you that is you will be in order if you maye doe what you liste ¶ Of subscribing to the Communion Booke Tract 21. Certayne generall faults wherewith the booke is charged by the Admonitors Chap. 1. the first Diuision The first article Fyrst that the booke commonly called the booke of common prayers for the Churche of Englande Of subscribing to the communion booke authorised by Parliament and all and euery contents therein be suche as are not repugnant to the worde of God Admonition Albeit right Honorable and dearely beloued we haue at all times borne with that whiche we could not amende in this booke and haue vsed the same in our ministerie so farre foorth as we might reuerencing those times and those persons in whiche and by whome it was first authorised beeing studious of peace and of the buylding vp of Christes church yet nowe beeing compelled by subscription to allowe the same and to confesse it not to be against the worde of God in any poynt but tollerable we must needes say as followeth that this booke is an vnperfect booke culled and picked out of the Popishe dunghill the Masse booke full of all abhominations for some and many of the contents therein be suche as are agaynst the worde of God as by his grace shall be proued vnto you And by the waye we can not but muche maruell at the crafcie wilinesse of those men whose parts it had beene first to haue proued eache and euery content therein to be agreable to the worde of God seeing that they forcemen by subscription to consent vnto it or else sende them packing from their callings Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag.
chappell cannot be but most daungerous which with all humble submission and reuerence I beseech hir Maiestie duly to consider Io. Whitgifte My speach is verie plaine and without all ambiguitie I say there is a dozen Cathedrall Churches in England the worst of the which Churches in learning shal incounter with all papists c. My meaning can not be so darke as you would séeme to make it but bicause your vnderstanding is so dull when any thing is spoken to the commendation of any other than of your selfe I will more plainly declare my meaning whiche is this that there is not one of these dozen Churches but hathe a sufficiente number of learned menne to perfourme what so euer I haue promysed howe so euer boastinglye which I acknowledge to be my infirmitie but yet there vnto constreyned by the arrogancie of such qui cupiunt soli videri aliquid esse Your opprobrious speaches spoken of those Churches as mere slaunders and procéeding from a minde ouercome with enuie and contempt of other I passe ouer affirming still the same that is conteyned in mine Answere to the Admonition the which you may wel snap and bite at in words but in déede you shall neuer be able to steyne those places and whatsoeuer you pretende to the vniuersities yet your good will is as much towardes the one as it is towardes the other they both depending vpon one thréede But if there be abuses in hir Maiesties Chappell as you suppose why haue you not sought the reformation thereof orderly Why haue you sought it tumultuously why haue you libelled agaynst it why haue you sought it with spitefull wordes with disquieting the Church without all dutie and order The. 2. Diuision Admonition The seuentéenth We should be to long to tell your honours of Cathedrall Churches the dennes aforesayde of all loytering lubbers where maister Deane ▪ maistr Uicedeane maister Canons or maister Prebendaries the greater maister pecie Canons or Canons the lesser maister Chauncelor of the Church master Treasurer or otherwise called Iudas the purse bearer the chief Chauncer Singing men speciall fauourers of religion squeaking Queristers Organ players Gospellers Pistellers ▪ Pentioners Readers Uergers c. liue in great idlenesse and haue theyr abyding If you woulde knowe whence all these came we can easily answere you that they came from the Pope as out of the Troian horses bellie to the destruction of Gods kingdome The Church of God neuer knew them neither doth any reformed Church in the world know them Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 224. Sect. vlt. pag. 225. Sect. 1. Here you speake both without the booke of common prayer and Scriptures also for neyther are Cathedrall Churches conteyned in that booke neither haue you any Scripture to proue that which you so impudently affirme God be thanked it is well knowne to those that be not with malice blinded that Cathedrall Churches be furnished with godly zealous Learned men in cathedrall Churches and learned men And that they be the chiefe and principall ornaments of this Realme and next to the Uniuersities chiefest mainteyners of godlynesse religion and learning there be some desire the spoyle of them whose instruments you be But I hope both theyr mouthes and yours also shall be first stopped with earth Maister Deane maister Uicedeane maister Canons c. as much as they loyter may thinke themselues fit to be compared with such as you are in any respectes T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2. And as for the reasons which M. Doctor bringeth to establish them in the. 225. page as that they are necessarie which he doth barely say and that S. Augustine alloweth of a Deane and that the Authours of the Admonition are instruments of those which desire the spoyle of them and that a man may as well speake agaynst Uniuersities and Colleges as ag ynst them I haue answered before sauing that it is to be feared that Colleges in Uniuersities if M. Doctor may worke that which he goeth about will shortly be in little better case than those cathedrall Churches which not only by his owne example but with might maine and all indeuour possible goeth about to fill and fraught with non residencies and such as haue charges of Churches in other places (*) What will this slaundrous tongue spare which do no good in the vniuersitie and partly are such as can do none onely are pernicious examples of riotous feasting and making great cheere with the prayes and spoyles whiche they bring out of the countrey to the great hurt of the vniuersitie presently and vtter ruine of it hereafter vnlesse speedie remedie be therefore prouided Io. Whitgifte If I may work that which you say I go about I trust it shall be nothing that derogateth either frō the glory of God the honor of the Prince the peace of the church the cōmendation of the vniuersitie or the encrease of godlinesse learning I thank god I neither haue gone about any thing nor intende to do whereof I am either ashamed The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 hotte and ter 〈◊〉 or afrayde to make mine accompt But who séeth not your greefe In déede I may not suffer those with whom I haue to do to disquiet y e Uniuersitie or Colledge with false doctrine and schismaticall opinions I may not suffer them openly to breake contemne those lawes statutes which they are sworne to obserue and I to execute I may not suffer any man against the expresse woordes of his othe against all honestie and conscience to liue vnder me least I be partaker of his periurie these be the things that I haue done and these be the thinges that I intende to do whereby as hitherto I haue kepte the place where I am in some quiet and good order so do I trust to continue it both to the glorie of God the honour of the Prince the great encrease of learning the edifying of Christes Churche and the commendation both of the Colledge and the whole Uniuersitie And howsoeuer you haue by woorde and writing sought to deface both me and The colledge deliuered from the slanderous Replie the Colledge yea the whole vniuersitie for my sake cōtrary to the expresse woordes of your othe as I sayde in the beginning yet are you in act and déede confuted though I should not speake one woorde for contrary to your expectatiō and practise of your instruments and earnest desire of al that be factious the Colledge was neuer in better quietnesse neuer replenished with more towarde scholers neuer fuller of students of all degrées I speake it to Gods glory to deliuer it frō your slaunders than it is at this presente A great occasion of all these blissinges of God as instruments and meanes is the grauitie the honestie the wisedome the learning the discrete gouernment of those whom you call non residentes whom not I but the noble founders statutes ratified by the Quéenes Maiesties authoritie and allowed of by the wysest of the
the selfe same had not the correction of the booke which were the first penners of it and therefore how they will like of this correction it may be doubted But although the wordes in the texte be altered yet the quotations in the margent remayne still Belike they are to be applied as it pleaseth the platformers All this is added in the seuenth reason But some will say that the baptisme of Fol. 4. women is not cōmaunded by law if it be not why do you suffer it wherfore are the childrē so baptized accordingly cōmon experience teacheth that it is vsed almost in all places fewe speake against it this I am sure of that when it was put in the booke that was the meaning of the most part that were thē present and so it was to be vnderstāded as cōmon practise without cōtrolement doth plainely declare All these be but cōiectures Diuers things be suffered in many places vsed without cōtrolment which notwithstanding by no lawe be cōmaunded What the meaning was of those that penned the booke I know not neither as I thinke do you And surely for cōmon practise I can say litle but for mine own experiēce this I dare affirme that I haue not knowne one childe so baptised in places where I haue had to do no not since the beginning of the Q. Maiesties reigne I speake not of the thing it self but only of your coniectures I Baptizing by women not collected out of the booke thinke if the circūstances of the booke be well considered it will appeare that the meaning is that priuate baptisme is rather to be ministred by some minister which in y e time of necessity may soonest be come by thā by any womā But in this poynt I submit my iudgemēt to such as better know the meaning of y e bok being pēners therof thā I do In the same leafe ninth reason speaking of certeyne things vsed about mariage they adde these words VVith diuers other heathenishe toyes in sundry coūtries Toyes about mariage as carying of wheat sheafs on their heads casting of corne with a nūber of such like wherby they make rather a maygame of mariage thā a holy institutiō of God These be but toyes in deede vsed I know not where not conteyned in any part of the boke of cōmon prayers therfore without my cōpasse of defense They lacke matter whē they stuffe theyr booke with such vaine friuolous trifles In the. 10. reason to these wordes as for confirmation is added which the Fol. 5. Papists and our men say was in times past Apostolicall grounding their opinion perhaps vpon some dreame of Hierome And in the same place these wordes be left out VVe speake not of other toyes vsed in it how far it differeth is degenerated from the first institution they thēselues that are learned can witnesse And in the place hereof this is inserted as though baptisme were not already perfect but needed cōfirmation or as though the Bishop could giue the holy Ghost You your selfe in effect haue confessed in your first edition that confirmation of children is very auncient that it hath bene wel instituted for there you say that now it differeth is degenerate Confirmation of children allowed at the last frō the first institution But vpon better aduisemēt you haue left out these wordes in your second Edition as you haue also left out these with other toyes vsed in it wherby you confesse contrary to your former sentence that the confirmation of Children now vsed is without any toyes Howsosoeuer it pleaseth you to accompt Hieromes iudgemēt touching the antiquitie of confirmation a dreame yet his dreame may be of as much credite with wise men as your bare deniall of the same The wordes The ende of confirmation that you haue added in the second place might wel haue bene spared for you know that confirmation now vsed in this Churche is not to make baptisme perfect but partly to trie how the godfathers Godmothers haue performed y t which was enioyned thē whē the children were baptised partly that the childrē thēselues now being at the yeares of discretiō hauing learned what their Godfathers Godmothers promised for thē in baptisme may with their owne mouth with their owne consent openly before the church ratifie confirme the same also promise that by the grace of God they will euermore endeuour themselues faithfully to obserue keepe such things as they by their own mouth confessiō haue assented vnto And this reason is alledged among other euē in the booke of cōmon prayers And that it is not to make baptisme perfect y e boke of cōmon prayers it self declareth in these words And that no mā shal think any detrimēt shal come to Childrē by deferring of their cōfirmatiō he shal know for truth that it is certaine by Gods word that childrē being baptised haue all things necessary for their saluatiō be vndoubtedly saued You adde as though the Bishop could giue the holy Ghost the Bishop may vse the ceremonie vsed by the Apostles that is imposition of handes may safely say this godly prayer conteyned in the booke Defend O Lorde this childe with the heauenly grace that he may continue thine for euer and dayly encrease in thy holy spirit more and more vntill he come vnto thy euerlasting kingdome Amē And other such godly prayers there cōteiued Of any other kind of giuing y e holy ghost there is no mētion in that boke therfore these additions might very well haue bene leftout of your libel To the end of the eleuenth reason these wordes be added and open our eyes that we may see what that good and acceptable will of God is and be more earnest to prouoke his glory to the which I onely answere Amen In the ende of the. 12. there is something left out which they haue placed in the. 13. reason but it is answered before There is nothing added or altered worth the noting onely in the Fol. 6. fiftenth reason where they sayd before that we honored Bishops by the titles of kings nowe they haue recanted that and condemned themselues of an vntruth for they haue left out that title Fol. 7. In the seuenth leaf and 19. reason these words be left out banners and belles which argueth that they were before vntruly sayd to be vsed in gang weeke But to lye is a small matter with these men For Lordes grace of Yorke there is the Archbishop of Yorke The cause of Fol. 8. this alteration I know not When you say that you striue for true Religiō gouernment of the Church c. Fol. 9. You say that you do that which is to be wished you should do But your doings tēde to y e defacing of true Religion ouerthrow of the right gouernment of the Church although you be not the head of Antichrist yet are you his
eightenth chapter saith that equall power and function is giuen vnto all the ministers of of the Church and that from the beginning no one preferred himselfe to an other sauing only that for order some one did call them togither propound the matters that were to be consulted of and gathered the voyces c. Io. Whitgifte The wordes of the confession in the. 17. chapter be these truely Christe is present with his Churche and is a lyuing head who straightly forbad his Apostles and their successors to chalenge the primacie or supremacie in the Church This the confession speaketh of such primacie supremacie as the Byshop of Rome doth chalenge ouer the whole Church for in that place it onely speaketh of the Popes vsurped authoritie and not one worde of that superioritie among Ministers which is now in controuersie That which the confession affirmeth in the eightenth chapter maketh nothing against any superioritie allowed in this Churche of Englande for we acknowledge that there is one equall power and function of al Ministers but yet superioritie also to be among them for order sake and the same doth the Confession acknowledge in plaine and manifest woords euen in this place by you alledged whereby also that distinction is verifyed whiche you séeme so greatly to mislyke to witte that there is an equalitie of all Ministers of Gods worde quoad ministerium touching the ministerie but degrées and superioritie among them quoad ordinem politiam touching order and gouernment T. C. Musculus in his common places in the chapter of the offices of the ministers of the worde saith that in the Apostolike Church the ministers of the worde were none aboue another nor subiecte to any head or president and mislyketh the setting vp of any one in higher degree than another And further he saith vpon the seconde chapter of the seconde Epistle to the Thessalonians that the honor of a Bishop being taken from the rest of the ministers and giuē to one was the first step to the papacie howsoeuer in other places he speaketh otherwise Io. Whitgifte Musculus in those wordes of his common places speaketh of superioritie quoad officium potestatem touching office and power for these wordes dothe he vse he speaketh not of superioritie touching order and pollicie whiche is nowe in question The same power is in all ministers of the worde of bynding losing and administring the Sacraments but not of gouerning in the externall pollicie of the Church Moreouer Musculus in that place speaketh chiefly of the vsurped power of the Byshop of Rome and of that authoritie which his Byshoppes doe chaleng and clai e from him wherefore that place maye not be wrested against the lawfull iurisdictiō and superioritie that is nowe vsed in this Church of Englande Upon the seconde chapter of thée seconde Epistle to the Thessalonians he onely sheweth how the Pope came to such excessiue authoritie No man doubteth but that such things as were well instituted and vpon iust considerations may by proces of tyme abused but doth it therfore followe that they may not be restored to their right vse agayne A man might then much more strongly reason agaynst your equalitie which by sufficient tryall as by Ierome in sundrie places it maye appeare is proued to haue bene and to be the cause of schismes sectes contentions seditions tumultes murders confusion of Churches and common weales c. Nothing is so well instituted but it may be abused T. C. 3 That the election of Ministers perteyneth not to one man The foresayde Heluetian confession c. in the eightenth chapter sayth that the ministers ought to be chosen of the Churche or by those which are lawfully deputed of the Churche and afterwarde ordeyned with publike prayers Io. Whitgifte This maketh againste you for the confession alloweth that election of Ministers which is made by those that are appoynted to that office in the Churche for these be the wordes of the Confession but our Byshops are appointed to that office in this Church therefore the Confession alloweth Byshops to elect Ministers The wordes that followe that they should be ordeyned with publike prayers is obserued in our Church T. C. M. Caluine in his fourth booke of Institutions 3. chapter 15. section sheweth that the Church did choose and that the Apostles did moderate the election aud confuteth them whyche vpon the places of Titus and Timothie woulde proue that the election belongeth to one man Io. Whitgifte To this place of M. Caluine I haue sufficiently answered in the thirde treatise of election of Ministers chap. 7. the. 1. diuision T. C. 4 That there ought newe to be Elders to gouerne the Church wyth the Pastors and Deacons to prouide for the poore Touching Elders the iudgement of M. Caluine hath beene before declared in the fyrste of these propositions Io. Whitgifte And in the same place haue I answered that whych is there by you alledged out of M. Caluine T. C. M. Beza in his booke of Diuorces page 161. sayth that the Eldership of the Church ought to be where there is a Christian magistrate Io. Whitgifte M. Beza doth not say in that place that the Eldership of the Churche ought to be where there is a Christian Magistrate but that it may be and that it hath bene which he onely speaketh and proueth not And yet if he meane that Presbyterie whereof the Canons speake by him only in generalitie named then is it no other than we haue at this daye in this Church of Englande in Cathedrall Churches and Colleges for in the Canons presbyterium signifieth nothing else but a Colledge or company of Priestes and Ministers of the worde and Sacraments as I haue further declared in the. 17. Tract where I haue also shewed that M. Beza his opinion is that the gouernment of the Church maye admitte alteration according to the diuersities of times place and persons cap. vlt. T. C. Touching Deacons M. Caluine 4. booke 3. chapter 9. section after that he had discribed what Deacons the Churches had in the Apostles tymes saythe that we after their example ought to haue the lyke Io. Whitgifte M. Caluines words be these En quales habuerit diaconos Apostolica ecclesia quales ad eius exemplum habere nos conueniat Beholde what Deacons the Apostolicall churche had euen suche as it is conuenient we should haue according to that example Hee dothe not saye that we ought to haue them but that it is conuenient to haue th he doth not make them necessary but conuenient and he must be vnderstanded to ke of that Churche whereof he had experience not of this Churche wherein he was 〈◊〉 a straunger Of Deacons and that their office was not only to prouide for the poore but to preache also and to baptise I haue proued Tract 19. Tract 14. T. C. M. Beza in the. 5. chap. and. 23. section of his Confessiōs sheweth that the office of the distribution of the goodes of the
1. COR. 8. 2. If any man thinke that he knoweth any thing he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to knowe ¶ THE DEFENSE of the Aunswere to the Admonition against the Replie of T. C. BY IOHN VVHITGIFT Doctor of Diuinitie In the beginning are added these 4. Tables 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the Replie 2 Of Falsifications and Untruthes 3 Of matters handled at large 4 A table generall If any man be contentious we haue no such custome neyther the Churches of God 1. Cor. 11. 16. †Printed at London by Henry Binneman for Humfrey Toye Anno. 1574. GAL. 5. 26. Let vs not be desirous of vaineglorie prouoking one another enuying one another ¶ To the godlie Reader IT VVERE BVT A NEEDLESSE labour to make any particular recitall of those pointes of doctrine vvhich this Church of Englande at this day doth holde and maintayne for they be at large set out in sundrie english bookes and especially in the Apologie of the Church of Englande and the Defense of the same summarily also collected together in the boke of Articles agreed vpon in the Conuocation at London Anno 1562. c. this I dare boldely affirme that all pointes of Religion necessarie to saluation and touching eyther the mysterie of our redemption in Chryst or the right vse of the Sacramentes and true manner of vvorshipping God are as purely and perfectely taught and by publike authoritie established in this Church of England at this day as euer they vvere in any church sithence the Apostles time or novv be in any reformed Church in the vvorld the vvhich to be true those that be learned euen among the myslikers of this present state can not nor vvill not denie Likevvise that all Heresies all corrupt doctrines all superstitious and papisticall opinions haue bene and be by the Prince and the Realme banished by the learned Byshops and Preachers in vvorde and in vvriting confuted vvho is so blinded vvith malice that he cannot see or so frovvard and vvilfull that he vvil not confesse VVhat shall vvethen think of those men that are so farre from acknovvledging this singular and vnspeakeable benefite proceeding from the mere mercie of God so farre from being thankfull for the same from desiring the continuance of it vvith heartie prayers that by all meanes possible they seek rather to obscure it and to deface it bicause in certaine accidentall poynts they haue not their fantasies and proper deuises If this be not to set themselues agaynst God and to trouble the peace of the Church for externall things vvhich is schismaticall let the quiet and godlie Christian iudge Hovve much better had it bene for them to haue proceeded in teaching necessarie pointes of doctrine and exhorting to obedience to concorde to godlie lyfe and conuersation than thus vvith no small reioycing of the vvicked great offence of the vveak Gospellers maruellous grief of the Queenes maiestie and other that haue the care of gouernment frovvardly to dysquiet and dysturb the Church trouble the happie peace of the cōmon vveale and hazard the vvhole state of Religion they shall one day if not to late vvell vnderstand Furthermore it behoueth all godlie mindes that vvill not be caried avvay vvith rash and ouerhastie iudgemēt in this cōtrouersie to cōsider not only that that I haue before spoken of the truth of doctrine publikely receyued and cōfirmed but also circumspectly to vveigh the circumstances of time place person and the vvhole state of things novve in this Church and Realme of Englande The regarde vvherof in mine opinion must needes cause in all discrete heades a staye of iudgement in comparison that the things themselues barely considered vvoulde do The state of this Church of Englande at this day God be thanked is not Heathenish Turkish or Papisticall in vvhich conditiō many things might be done that othervvise are not to be attempted but it is the state of a church reformed and by authoritie and consent settled not only in truth of doctrine as before is noted but also in order of thinges externall touching the gouernment of the Church and administration of the Sacramentes VVherefore the controuersie is not vvhether many of the thinges mentioned by the platformers vvere fitlie vsed in the Apostles time or may novv be vvell vsed in some places yea or be cōueniently vsed in sundrye reformed Churches at this day For none of these braunches are denyed neither do vve take vpon vs as vve are sclaundered either to blame or to condemne other Churches for such orders as they haue receiued most fit for their estats But this is the vvhole state of our controuersie vvhen vve of this Church in these perillous dayes do see that vve haue a greate number of hollovve hartes vvithin this Realme that daylie gape for alteratiō of Religiō and many mightie great enimies abroade busilie deuising and vvorking to bring the same to passe and to ouerthrovve the state both of religion and of the Realme vvhether seing vve haue a setled order in doctrine and gouernment receiued and confirmed by lavve it may stand vvith godlie and Christian vvisdome vvith disobedience to the Prince and lavve and vvith the vnquietnes of the Church and offence of many consciences to attempt so greate alteratiō as this platforme must needes bring and that for matters externall onlye and vvith such egernesse and bitternesse that they deface and discredite the vvhole state of this Church vvith al the Preachers and Ecclesiasticall gouernours of the same as remayning in horrible corruptions and Antichristian deformities and thereby fill the mouthes of the aduersaries vvith greater matter of obloquie to deface the gospell than euer of them selues they had bene able to deuise Surely I could neuer reade but that they that should so do vvere rather to be estemed troublesome and schismaticall defacers than zealous and godly reformers I knovve that no Church can be so perfect in all points of externall gouerment and ceremonies but that such as be disposed maye picke some occasion of quarrelling thereat thoughe vniustlie therefore the true members of the Church must not be to light of credit nor to redie to follovve contentious captaines For S. Paule sayeth Si quis sit contenfiosus inter vos c. If any be contentious among you we haue no such custome neyther the Churches of God c. Againe vvhen any thing is amisse it must be considered vvhether the faultes be in the thinges themselues or in the persons for vve may not vvith partiall and corrupt iudgement impute the faultes of the persons to the things vvhether they be offices or ceremonies for then should vve continuallie bee altering the state and neuer stand stedfast in any kynde of gouernment therefore in such cases vve must seke to reforme the abuses in men vve must not pull avvaye the states and offices or the thinges themselues bicause they be abused by some men But to let this passe and come to the purpose this Replie of T. C. vvhich is of some counted
it abroade gather disciples and make a new secte in shorte time we shal haue so many sectes and factions that Christe which scarce with greate payne and labor is brought to vnitie in euery church should be deuided againe into many partes VVherefore as you haue singularelie and vvith greate vvisdome and labour alreadie restored the true religion of Christe and banished all superstition and erroneous doctrine So likewise as the same Zuinglius sayeth in those perillous times wherein Satan seketh so busilie to In his epistle before his book de Baptismo entrap vs so that with newe cōtentions about external thinges he goeth about to trouble those whome the sworde of persecution eyther moued not or terrified not look well about you note the craftes and subtilties of them take hede of the pestilent windes of diuers doctrine let none trouble the gospell amongst you or set you at strife and variaunce And remember that as the streame that commeth dovvne from the highe mountaines being caused by much rayne and snovve taking eueriething that it meteth vvith before it the further it goeth the greater strengthe and the more aboundance of vvater it gathereth and first remoueth out of their places small stones after vvith greater violence casteth dovvne strong bridges yea huge and mightie rockes and encreaseth to that strength that nothing be it of neuer so greate force can resist or vvithstand it and in the end leueth nothing else behinde it quà m inutilem luctum quaerelas inanes miseram vastatorum agrorum segetum formam but vnprofitable mourning vaine complaintes and a miserable forme of the spoiled fieldes euen so contentionum pestis impia haeresis eodem modo progrediens non quicquam aliud quà m turpem calamito sam rerum faciem in florentissimo antè ecclesiae agro post se relinquit The plague of contention and wicked heresie proceding in like manner leaueth nothing after it but a miserable and pitifull face and shew of thinges in that place which was before the flourishing fielde of the church Consider vvhat the vviseman sayeth Prouerb 17. the beginning of stryfe is as one that openeth the waters It had bene vvell if the beginning had bene vvithstanded but seing that vvas neglected and rather by some furthered than stopped Yet novv it is time to make vp the breache This is sufficiēt to you vvhose vvisdome and carefulnesse is vvell knovvne to all those that be not vvith sinister affection blinded Those that be in the Ecclesiasticall state and desirous to kepe the peace of the Churche I haue onlie to admonishe that they be not discouraged from doing their duties bicause of the slaunderous reportes and vnchristian tauntes and contumelies that our vnquiet brethren lade them vvith knovving that it hath bene the vsuall practise of all sectaries and especiallie of Anabaptistes vvho counte them all as vvicked and vngodlie as vvorldlinges and men pleasers as idle and slouthfull that conspire not vvith them in their confused platforme I maye vse the same exhortation to you that M. Zuinglius vsed in the like time Nec quicquam vos moueant atroces illaecalumniae c. Let not those bitter reproches Zuinglius 〈◊〉 Ecclesiast and cauilling speaches wherewith the Anabaptistes and others studious of contention and discorde oppresse you moue you any thing at all bicause you rather followe Christ than them for although they call you wicked and infidels yet your selues best know what your cōfidence in God is and what is your meaning and purpose so that so often as they accuse you of impietie or of infidelitie so ofte do they minister manifest proofes vnto you that their spirite procedeth from the father of lyes And marueile not at those bitter contentions you knovve it to be true that the same Zuinglius also sayeth Nec enim aliud est communis illius hostis nostri ingenium c. This is the subtil e of our common enimie this is his manner herevnto doth he bend him selfe whollie and sleepeth not that as sone as the lord hath reuealed the light of his worde he also by and by soweth darnell this do almost all the epistles of S. Paule teach vs wherein it is manifestlie declared that there hath bene alwayes some men Pietatis simulatores potiùs quà m cultores rather feyners of holynes than embracers of it who for certaine externall and vnprofitable thinges doubt not to laye as it were greuous stumbling blockes to the doctrine of the gospell Onlie let vs be diligent in our vocation earnest against all kinde of enimies feruent in prayers for the preseruation of the Queenes maiestie and for the peace of the Church vvith the good successe of the Gospell and vigilant that errors be not published vvithout controlement and God vvill ere it be long if our sinnes deserue not the contrarie giue peace to this Church as he hath done to other disturbed in like manner To conclude I do charge all men before God and his Angells as they vvil ansvvere at the daye of iudgement that vnder the pretence of zeale they seeke not the spoyle of the Church vnder the colour of perfection they vvorke not confusion vnder the cloake of simplicitie they couer not pride ambition vayneglorie arrogancie vnder the outvvarde shevve of godlinesse they nourish not contempt of magistrates popularitie Anabaptistrie and sundrie others pernicious and pestilent errors The Lord make vs thankful for his infinite mercies and singular goodnesse bestovved vpon vs in thus long continuing his gospell preseruing our most gracious and louing Queene and ouerthrovving all the conspiracies and deuises that the diuell hath hetherto inuented to molest this state and Church ¶ A note of such dangerous pointes of doctrine as are auouched by T. C. in his Replie and quoted as they are to be founde in this Booke HE sayth that Certeine of the things which we stande vpon are suche as if euery heare of out heade were a life we ought to aforde them for the defense of them whereby he woulde insinuate that this Church of England doth mainteine some dānable doctrine pag. 44. 2 He sayth that if the Church be considered in the whole and generall gouernment and outwarde pollicie of it it may be pure and vnspotted whiche smelleth of an Anabaptisticall fansie pag. 50. 3 He affirmeth that many things are both commaunded and forbidden of which there is no expresse mention in the word which are as necessarily to be followed or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made which soundeth to the confirmation of the very foundation of all Papistrie pag. 77. 4 He holdeth that the doctrine of free will is not repugnant to saluation and yet is it a doctrine cleane contrarie to frée iustification by Christe pag. 82. 5 He saythe that all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for our saluation which is a notorious error pag. 103. 6 He vtterly denyeth that any magistrate can faue the life of blasphemers contemptuous and stubborne I dolaters
commaunde them Pag. 186. 10 He sayth that those which write the Centuries suspect the Cannon of the Councell of Laodicea which forbiddeth the electiō of ministers to be committed to the people and doubt whether it bea Bastarde or no whiche is vntrue for the Authours of the Centuryes make no such doubt Pag. 188. 11 He sayth that Hierome willeth that the people should haue power and authoritie to choose their clearks their ministers which is not so for Hierom willeth no such thing Pag. 203. 12 He alledgeth Musculus his wordes in stead of Ieromes and that which onely Muscu sayth in his cōmon places he ascribeth to Ierom in his epist. to Nepotian ead 13 He sayth that Nazian in an oration that he wryteth at the death of his father confuteth those reasons that seeme to hinder the election of Ministers by the Church and yet is there no such thing to be founde in that oration Pag. 205. 14 He referreth the Reader to the. 6. and. 7. booke of Eusebius for examples of elections of the people Clergie confirmed by the Christian magistrate namely in the Bishop of Constantinople and yet is there no such examples in those bookes neyther any mention of any Bishop of Constantinople Pag. 207. 15 He fathereth a manifest vntruth vpon Eusebius lib. 6. touching Origens admission into the ministerie Pag. 209. 16 He leaueth out the wordes of the Councell of Chalcedon that open the meaning of the Councell Pag. 222. 17 He againe ascribeth Musculus his wordes to Ierome Pag. ead 18 He denyeth that Chrysostome maketh a distinction betwixt Bishops and Elders when as his wordes be plaine Pag. 226. 19 He doth vntruely and corruptly alledge Theodorete Pag. 268. 20 He sayth Pag. 280. that the two treatises called the Admonition were written by diuerse persons the one not knowing the others doings the contrarie whereof is manifestly declared 21 He citeth Nicephorus corruptly Pag. 326. 22 He falsifyeth a place in the first of Iohn by a false interpretation to make it serue his turne Pag. 302. 23 He sayth that the Centuries alledge a place of Ambrose out of his booke de dignitate sacerdotali to proue that the office of an Archbishop was not then come into the Church Which is vntrue for the Centuries alledge no suche place out of Ambrose for any such purpose Pag. 337. 24 He sayth that Hierome and Augustine speake of Archdeacons in those places where they onely speake of Deacons Pag. 346. 25 The wordes of Socrates are falsified Pag. 350. 26 He vntruly reporteth the wordes of Cyprian Pag. 257. 27 He falsifieth the meaning of Tertullian alluding that to Ceremonies that Tertullian meaneth of matters of fayth and of saluation Pag. 370. 28 He kéepeth back the wordes of Theodoret that explane his meaning Pag. 412. 29 An vntruth concerning Iereneus auouched out of the fifth booke of Eusebius Cap. 3. 4. Pag. eadem 30 He peruerteth the wordes of the Gréeke scholiast Pag. 413. 31 He auoucheth an vntruth of Theodoret. Pag. 415. 32 He vttereth a verie vncharitable vntruth of the worthie man M. Iewel Bishop of Sarisburie Pag 422. 33 He sayth that in the Councell of Antioch it appeareth that the Bishop of the Metropolitane seate called Synodes and propounded the matters which were to be handled and that it was his office to see that the Bishops kept themselues within their owne Diocesse and he quoteth the. 9. Canon where no such thing is to be founde Pag. 435. 34 He both addeth and detracteth from the. 34. Canon attributed to the Apostles Page 439. 35 The. 17. Canon of the Councell of Antioche is vntruely alleadged Page 440. 36 He should saye an Epistle of Pope Zachary to Boniface and he sayth an Epistle of Zachary to Pope Boniface In the whiche Epistle he saythe that this cause scil Least they shoulde wax vile through the multitude is alleaged why there should not be a Bishop in euery village or little citie which is vntrue for there is no such cause alleaged there 443. 37 He alleadgeth the fift Canō Concilij Tyronnes for that that cannot be found in it Pag 446. 38 He saythe that another councell quoting the Councell of Afrike decreed that the Christians shoulde not celebrate feastes on the birth dayes of Martyrs because it was the manner of the heathen which is a manifest vntruth for there is no such decrée in that councell 479. 39 He sayth That Tertuliian would not haue the Christians to syt after they had prayed because the Idolaters did so and he quoteth his booke de anima where there is no such thing written Page ead 40 He fathereth an vntruth of Augustine touching Baptizing by women or in priuate houses Page 522. 41 He alleageth M. Beza in his annotations for that which cannot be founde in thē Pag. 584. 42 He saith that if we will take the nature of the sacrament so straightly as Augustine doth that there be no sacramentes but when as to the element there commeth the worde the circumcision can be no Sacramen which is a grosse vntruth for in circumcision there is both the word and the element Page 〈◊〉 43 He saith that the eldership was most flourishing in Constantines time but he noteth 〈◊〉 place where we may finde his saying to be true Page 651. 44 He is greatly deceiued about the excommunicating of Apollinaris and sheweth manifest tokens that either he hath not himselfe read the story or that he hath read it very negligently as it is plainely declared in the Defense Page 669. 45 He falsifieth Ambrose Page 670. 46 He alleageth a place of Tertullian very deceitfully Page 673. 47 He saith that Augustine in his bookes de Bap. contra Donatistas 〈◊〉 that if the most of the people be in ected with the fault which is to be punished that then no excommunication ought to be attempted for because 〈◊〉 sufficient number of voyces will not be obteined for the excōmunication whereas these wordes for because a sufficient number of voyces c. are not to be founde in these bookes of Augustine Page 675. 48 He maketh an vntrue report of the. 10. Canon of the Councell of Anti h. Page 682. 49 He alleageth that for making Ecclesiastical lawes and ceremonies which is ment of building and repayring of Churches out of Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Constant. Epist. ad Eusebium Page 698. 50 He affirmeth that this practise continued still in the Churches of God scil that nothing was broughte into the Church to be read besides the word of God whereas the contrarie is manifestly proued of the same time whereof he meaneth Page 718. 51 He saith that S. Iohn in the Apocalips reprehending the ministers of diuers Churches dyd not put to his name vnto his booke whiche is a manifest vntruth for he addeth his name both in the beginning and in the end thrise in the first chapter and once in the last I here omit his manifest wresting of the Scriptures his wrong collections bolde assertions contrarie
to the practise of the Church and truth and notorious vntruthes affirmed by him of the Answere to the Admonition with sundrie other grosse ouersights because I haue noted them in the margent and plainly detected them in my Defense to this Replier and are for the most part noted also in the Generall Table vnder these 3. titles Falsifications of the Replier T. C. charged with vntruth T. C. chargeth the Answere falsely Men may erre and be deceiued but either to speake nothing truly or often to fault in vntrue dealing cannot be a token of the spirite of truth the which spirite of truth God for his Christes sake graunt vnto all those that haue a heartie desire to know the truth FINIS A TABLE OF THE PRINCIPALL titles and matters handeled at large in this Booke AN answere to the Epistle Dedicated by T. C. too the Church of Englād c. pag. 1 An Epistle of the Author too the Church of England 17 An exhortation to the Ciuil ecclesiasticall Magistrates 31 An aunswere to the Preface of the Admonition 57 Tractatus 1. VVhether Christ forbiddeth rule and superioritie vnto mi nisters 61 The true interpretation of the 20 of Mathew c. Reges gentium c. Cap. 1. 61 The exposition of the place Math. 23. Cap. 2. 71 Tract 2. Of the authoritie of the church in things indifferent 76 Som things may be tollerated in the Church touching order ceremonies discipline kind of gouern ment not expressed in the woord of God Chap. 1. 76 The opinion of the auncient fathers and councelles of thinges indifferent Chap. 2 95 The opinion of Saint Augustine of things indifferent Chap. 3 99 The opinion of M. Caluine of things indifferent Chap. 4. 109 The opinion of Bucer of things indifferent Chap. 5 113 The expositiō of the places of Deut. 4. 12. quoted by the Admonition Chap. 6. 116 The opinion of other late writers of thinges indifferent Chap. 7. 126 Tract 3. Of the election of Ministers 132 Of the triall of Ministers both in lear ning and conuersation Chap. 1. pag. 132 VVhether Idolatrous sacrificers and Massemongers maye afterwardes be Ministers of the Gospell Chap. 2. 143 Of Ministers learning Catechismes Chap ▪ 3. 152 Of the election of Ministers by the voices and consent of the people Chap. 4. 154 An examinatiō of the reasons which T. C. vseth to proue the perpetuall equitie c. of elections by the people Chap. 5. 170 The diuersitie betwixt the Apostles times oures requireth a diuers kind of gouernement and of ordering of Ministers Chap. 6. 174 That Bishops haue authoritie to admit and ordeine Ministers Chap. 7. 194 It is not necessary that the people should haue interest in the election of Ministers but the contrary is conuenient Chap. 8. 211 Tract 4. Of Ministers hauing no pastorall charge of ceremonies vsed in ordering Ministers of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets 216 Of Ministers admitted a place being not voyd Chap. 1 216 Of ceremonies vsed in ordeining Mi nisters Chap. 2. 225 Of Apostles Euangelists and Prophets Chap. 3. 228 Tract 5. Of Residence of the pastor Chap. 1. 235 Of pluralities or hauing moe benefices than one Chap. 2. 246 Tract 6. Of Ministers that cānot preach and of licences to preach 251 Some may be Ministers that cannot preach Chap. 1. 251 Of licences to preach Chap. 2 254 Tract 7. Of apparell of Ministers 256 The causes vvhy they refuse the Apparell examined Chap. 1. 256 That Ministers vvere knovvne in times past by distinct apparell Chap. 2. 261 That the Magistrate may appoynt a distinct apparell for Ministers Chap. 3. 264 The distinction of apparell vvas appointed before the Popes tiranny Chap. 4. 268 That the apparel now vsed is not Po pishe or Antichristian And that things inuented by euil men may be vsed of Christians Chap. 5. 271 Diuers thinges concerning apparell in other places of the Aunsvvere chap. 6. 282 The faultes vvherevvith the Admonitors charge the apparell aunswered Chap. 7 283 Tract 8. Of Archbishops Metropolitās Bishops Archdeacons c. pag. 297 The reasons of T. C. ansvvered wher by he goeth about to take awaye the superfluous loppe as hee termeth it of the offices chap. 1. 297 That the names of Metropolitane Archbishop c. be not Antichristian chap. 2. 318 The offices of Archbishops c. are not straung or vnheard of in Chri stes church and of superioritie among the Clergie chap. 3. 353 The defense of the ansvvere of maister Iewell concerninge Archbishops c. against the vnreuerend Reply of T. C. chap. 4 422 The causes of Archbishops and of their prerogatiue and the estate of the old Bishops assigned by T. C. examined Chap. 5. 435 Other things concerning the offices and authoritie of our clergie of inequalitie of degrees amongst ministers c. dispersed in other places of the Answer chap. 6. 453 A briefe collection of such authorities as are vsed in this defense of the authoritie of Archbishops Bishops Chap 7. 470 A briefe comparison of the Bishops of our time and the Bishoppes of the primitiue Church Chap. 8. pag. 47 Tract 9. Of the communiō booke 474. The generall faultes examined wher vvith the publike seruice is charged by T. C. Chap. 1. 474 An examination of the particular faultes either in matter or forme whervvith the Booke of commō praier is charged Chap. 2. 487 Of Baptisme by women vvherwith the communion Booke is falsly charged Chap. 3. 503 Of ministring the sacraments in priuate places Chap. 4. 511 The sacraments ministred by other than Ministers Chap. 5. 515 Of priuate communion wherwith the Admonition chargeth the Booke of common prayer Chap. 6. 525. Of Churching of women 534 Tract 10. Of holydayes 538 Of holidayes in generall and that they maye bee appointed by the Church and of the vse of them Chap. 1. 538 Of Saints dayes Chap. 2. 543 Tract 11. VVhat kind of preachinge is most effectuall 555 Tract 12. Of preaching before the administration of the Sacraments 562. Tract 13. Of reading of the Scriptures 568. A comparison betvveene reading of Scriptures and preaching Chap. 1. page 568 That reading is preaching chap. 2. pag. 574 The profite of reading Scriptures in the Church chap. 3. 578 Tract 14. Of ministring and preachinge by Deacons 582 Tract 15. Of matters touching the communion 588 Of orders and ceremonies vsed in the celebration of the Communion chap. 1. 588 Of shutting men from the communion and compelling to communicate chap. 2. 603 Of playn and simple ministring and receyuing of the communion Chap. 3. 605 Tract 16. Of matters touching baptisme pag. 607 Of interrogatories ministred to infantes Chap. 1. 607 Of Godfathers and their promise Chap. 2 612 Of fontes and crossing in baptisme Chap. 3. pag. 614 Of the parties that are to bee baptised Chap. 4 619 Tract 17. Of the Seigniorie or gouernement by Seniors 626 VVhether there were such as the Ad monition calleth Seniors in euery Congregation chap. 1. 626 VVhether the gouernement by
Donatisme pag. 622 The Replyer put to the proofe of his ceremonies 614 The Replier tripped in his own net pag. 693 T. C. teacheth S. Augustine to speak pag. 609 The marke that the Replyer shoteth at 56 The drift of the Replier 315 T. C. forsaketh the Apostolical form in Election 193. 195 ¶ Telesphorus a good Bishop 6 2 ¶ Theodoret had gouernement of 800. churches 415. 472 Theodoret of Chrysostome 412 ¶ Thracia annexed to the Archbisshoprike of Constantinople 413 ¶ Of these wordes Take thou eate thou 600 ¶ Diuersitie of Tymes require a diuerse gouernement c. 174. c. ¶ Timothies authoritie 401 Timothie Bishop of Ephesus 404 c. 470. Timothie oft absent from Ephesus pag. 236 The iurisdiction that Timothie vsed in some respect ciuill 769 ¶ Titus Archbishop of Creta 325. 400. 431. 470. ¶ Titles of dignitie in ministers not Antichristian 353 Honorable Titles of Bishops 448 Men called by vndeserued Titles 70 71. Titles in the church vnder the lawe whereof God is not the expresse author 304 ¶ The othe of the fellowes of Trinitie Colledge in Cambridge 1. 235. Trinitie Colledge and the fellowes deliuered frō the slaunderous Replye 745 ¶ The maintenance of Truth as necessarie as the suppression of errours 496 ¶ It is not better to frame our ceremonies to Turkes than to papists pag. 471 V. ¶ Vanitie 351 ¶ Omne verum à spiritu Sancto est pag. 551. 552 ¶ Vicars or substitutes 681 ¶ Victor a good Bishop 510 ¶ Vix what it importeth 796 ¶ Vniuersitie landes stand on the same pinne with Bishops 452. ¶ Vse of things wickedly inuented pag. 273. c. Priuate vse of Idolatrous things forbidden 272 Common vse of Idolatrous things page 273 The vse and abuse of things indifferent 276 ¶ Vsurpe both in Ministring and preaching offend God 520 W ¶ VVa er cakes 596 ¶ VVatchmen and Sheapheards 220 237. ¶ The weake not offended with apparell 〈◊〉 In what sort of indifferent thinges we ought to respect the weake 258. ¶ VVhoremongers in the visible Church 1 ¶ VVickednesse of men causeth not lawes to be euill 1 4 ¶ VVidowes 6 ¶ VVine and Bread consecrated too Idols 275. 276 ¶ Froward wittes 481 ¶ VVhen a woman maye preach Christ. 50 The cause of the VVomans absence from the Church after her deliuerance 53 The VVomans vayle 53 ¶ Strife about wordes proper to q rell rs 5 ¶ VVhat it is to adde and to take away from the VVord 1 Difference betwixt the worshipping of the true God falsly and 〈◊〉 Gods 27 ¶ Mens writings read in the chur pag. 7 The occasion and circumstances of mens writings must bee considered 114. 292 Z ¶ Zuinfildians condemne reading pag. 252. 569. 71 ¶ The Zeale of the Replier 36 Preposterous Zeale 48 The Printer to the Readers I could not be but that in so great a volume some things should escape euen those that are diligent and carefull I especially considering the speedie dispatch and other circumstances notwithstanding if before you enter to reade this booke you will take the paynes to mende these faulces with your pen the rest being lighter will not greately stay your course in reading or otherwise alter the sense and meaning Fare you well Pag. 2. line 8. reade plainly Pag. 21. line 22. for priuately reade priu ly Pag. 50. line vlti for I speake not of their opinions reade I speake not of all their opinions Pag. 62. line 38 reade in these Pag. 67. line 37. for or reade for Pag. 78. line 34. reade and seeking helpe of the Egyptians Pag. 104. lin 22. for abiunde reade aliunde Pag. 124. line 45. reade Is homo Pag. 191. line 45. for worde reade wordes Pag. 244. line 13. reade in the euill day Pag. 252. lin 46. for any confession reade my confession pag. 253 lin 7. reade Chap. 1. pag. 254. line 13. reade chap. 1. and line 48. reade Chap. 2. pag. 304. in y ◠margēt reade wherof God pag. 349. line 29. for and reade as pag. 448. line 32. reade 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pag. 468. lin 46. for his own reade this one pa. 481. lin 32. for more reade moue pag. 508. lin 1. reade encomber the Answerer pag. 523. lin 25. reade conuentur pag. 536. line 20. for yll read it pag. 537. lin 42. for those read this pag. 541. line 21. for constraine read restreyne pag. 661. line 20. read thus election of ministers is no correctiō of vice neither yet is the deciding c. pag. 663. line 53. for there reade therefore pag. 665. in the margent for eternal reade externall pag 685. lin 6. reade the. 11. diuision pag. 708. line vit for rather reade either pag. 722. line vlt. adde this heaping vp of scriptures shewe me one place in this epistle yea in pag. 731. line 41. for seruice reade sorow pag. 803. lin 7. reade Gods worde pag. 806. line 4. reade of defiance salued pag. 810. line 41. reade fi ¶ To the Churche of Englande and all those that loue the truth in it T. C. vvisheth mercie and peace from God our Father and from our Lorde Iesus Christe AS our men doe more willingly go to warfare and fighte with greater courage agaynst straungers than agaynst their Countreymen so it is with me in this spirituall warfare For I woulde haue wished that this controuersie had beene with the Papistes or with ether if any can be more pestilent and professed e mes of the Churche for that should haue beene lesse griefe to write and more conuenient to perswade that which I desire For as the very name of an enimie dothe kindle the desire of fighting and styrreth vp the care of prepa ng the furniture for the warre So I can not tell howe it commeth to passe that the name of a brother aketh that courage and abateth that carefulnesse whiche sheuld be bestowed in defence of the truthe But seeing the truthe ought not to be forsaken for any mans cause ▪ I enforced my selfe considering that if the Lorde mighte lay to my charge that I was not for certayne considerations so readie as I ought to haue beene to publishe the truthe he mighte more iustly condemne me if beeing oppugned and slaundered by others I shoulde not according to that measure which he hath dealte vnto me and for my small habilitie defende it and delyuer it from the euill reporte that some endeuour to bring vpon it An Answere to the Epistle dedicated by T. C. to the Churche of Englande c. IT doth not appeare by the style and maner of writing vsed in this your booke that there remayneth any portion of suche naturall affection or brotherly loue in you as you would beare the world in hand and séeme to haue by these your wordes For if you should haue written against the veriest Papist in the world the vilest person the ignorantest dolt you could not haue vsed a more spitefull and malicious more slaunderous and reprochfull more contemptuous and disdaynfull kinde of
writing than you vse throughout your whole booke and truly if you had not these two letters T. C. for your name yet coulde I haue easily coniectured by the haughtinesse of the stile and contemptuous speaches who had bene the authour of the booke so well am I acquainted with your modestie and suche experience haue I of your myldnesse But it is well for nowe such as before haue thought that you had bene sine felle without gall and that butter would not melt in your mouth may perceyue that all is not vntrue that hath ben reported of you But what woulde they farther thinke if they shoulde compare you béeing that T. C. that I take you to be your othe which you once tooke when you were admitted fellowe into T. C. Item me buic Collegio fidelem beneuolum The othe which the fellowes of Tri. Col. in Cambridge do take at their 〈◊〉 futurum ei omnibus socijs ac discipulis atque etiam magistro eiusdem non solum dum in eo vixero sed etiam postea pro virili cum opus sit beneuolentiam opem praestiturū c. with this your good will vttered throughout your whole booke verily you might haue answered as well as you haue doon and had better regard both to your othe and to your brethren But to let that passe I doubte whether you meane good faith or no when you would make vs beléeue that you take vs for brethren for surely that doth not appeare either by the firste or Admonition or by this your booke if a man consider the fiercenesse and firie heat almost in euery lyne of them vttered against vs. In the second Admonition fol. 35. speaking of the Bishops which be nowe their confederates as you cal them these words in most spiteful maner be vttered And take them for better 2. Admo ▪ fo 35 who shall they are no other but a remnant of Antichristes broode and God amend and forgiue them for else they bid battell to Christ and his Church and it must bid defiance to them till they yeeld And I protest before the eternall God I take them so and thereafter will vse my selfe in my vocation and many moe too no doubt which be carefull of God his glory and the Churches liberty will vse them selues against them as the professed enimies of the Church of Christ if they proceede in this course and thus persecute as they do And therefore these be but wordes of dalyance when you saye that you cannot tell howe it commeth to passe that the name of a brother s aketh that courage and abateth that carefulnesse whiche should be bestowed in the defence of the truth In déede it ought to haue abated your outrageous and disdayneful speaches if olde rancour and desire of reuengement had not gotten in you the vpper hande For whether you deale with me lyke a brother or like an vtter enimie lette the indifferent Reader iudge What truth you haue on your side and how it is oppugned and slandered by such as you meane shall I trust appeare when your Replie is diligently compared with my Answere If you had ment the truth in good earnest you woulde haue delt more paynly in replying than you haue doone you would haue set downe my booke as I haue done the Admonition that the Reader mighte haue compared bothe together and not haue mangled it depraued it falsified it and vntruly collected of it as you haue done and almost nothing else as God willing shall appeare God graunt that it be not layde to your charge that you haue hindred Truth slaundered it and giuen the common aduersaries occasion to speake euill of it T. C. And as vnto other partes of the Gospell so soone as the Lorde openeth a doore for them to enter in there is for the most parte great resistance So in this part concerning the gouernment and discipline of the Church which is the order which God hath left as well to make the doctrine most effectual and to giue as it were a sharper edge vnto the preaching of the word as also to be a wall to keepe it and make it continue amongst vs I see there bee sundrie lettes which doe as it were with weapons stande vp to stoppe the passage and to hinder that it shoulde not be settled amongste vs. Io. Whitgifte It is true that there is greate resistance so soone as the Lorde openeth any dore to his Gospell and that by sundrie meanes and diuers kindes of men as the stories of the Churche from tyme to tyme declare and dayly experience teacheth it is also true that many vnder this pretence of right gonernment and restoring of discipline haue and doe disturbe the Churches wherin the Gospel is sincerely preached and the Sacraments rightly ministred for further proufe wherof and auoyding of tediousnesse I referre you to maister Bullinger Lib. 6. cap. 10. aduersus Anabaptist To Maister Caluine aduersus Anabaptist To Maister Gualter in his Epistle dedicatorie before his The pretence of restoring the right gouernment but a cloake for farther mischiefe commentarie vpon the first to the Corinthes Therfore this pretence of restoring the right gouernment of the Churche with so great disquietnesse of the same is but a couer to hyde the further purposes of Satan the enimie of the peace and quietnesse of the Churche T. C. With the whiche albeeit I wrestle hand to hande in this booke yet forasmuche as we haue all drunke so deepe of the cup of vntruth that we do not only stumble at blockes which other men laye in our way but oftentimes we gather lettes vnto our selues in framing a preiudice against the truth I thought good to note shortly what those stumbling blockes are and although I cannot remoue them yet to giue warning of them and to lende my hande to the weaker and simpler sorte to helpe to ouerstride them Io. Whitgifte What these stumbling blockes are and howe you will helpe the weaker and simpler sorte to ouerstride them we shall sée in the discourse that foloweth The Epist. of T. C. Sect. 2. The offences which are taken herein be either in respecte of the cause or in respect of those whiche seeke to defende and promote the cause The cause is charged fyrste with newnesse and strangenesse then as author of confusion and of disorder and laste of all as enimie to Princes magistrates and common wealthes For the fyrst besydes that it is no sufficient chalenge to say it is new and strange there is no cause why it should be counted newe which is confessed of those whiche myslyke it to haue bin for the most part vsed in the Apostles tymes nor why it should be esteemed strange which is vsed now farre and neere of this that syde the sea and of ne straungers but of those which are of the houshold of fayth And it shal more largely appeare in this boke that this is no innouation but a renouation and the doctrine
But you haue not yet proued your doctrine now in question to be that doctrine of the Gospell of saluation These woordes might wel haue ben spoken of the Gospell against Mahometisme Iudaisme Papisme but you doe iniurie to that doctrine of lyfe when you confounde with the same your erroneous contentions about ceremonies and the kinde of gouernment whiche all béeing externall things I thinke not many will make them to be de necessitate salutis of necessitie vnto saluation you haue here sayde nothing of your doctrine but that whiche the Arrians the Pelagians the Papistes the Turkes yea almoste the Anabaptistes will say of theirs for many euen of the Anabaptistes confesse that Magistrates be necessarie but yet not to be lawfull for Christians to be Magistrates and for proof therof they vse diuers of the self same places that the Admonition hath alleaged and you allowed against superioritie in the clergie And except I be deceyued you come verie néere to them for you will haue the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill gouernment so distincte that they can by no meanes concurre in one and the selfe same persons wherby you take from the Ciuil Magistrate authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters and by that meanes spoyle him of the one halfe of his iurisdiction But of this matter more at large hereafter as occasion shall be ministred by you In the meane tyme I admonishe the Reader to beléeue youre wordes no farther than he shall sée iust proofe of them T. C. If it be asked of the obedience due vnto the Prince and vnto the Magistrate it answereth that all obedience in the Lorde is to be rendred and if it come to passe that any other be asked it so refuseth that it disobeyeth not in preferring obedience to the greate God before that whiche is to be giuen to mortall man It so resysteth that it submitteth the bodie and goodes of those that professe it to abyde that whiche God will haue them suffer in that case Io. Whitgifte All this is truly spoken of the doctrine of the Gospell but not of the doctrine in controuersie amongst vs and verily this is not plaine dealing to make the reader beléeue that we doe withstande the doctrine of the Gospell when we only resist your contentions about externall matters wherby the doctrine of the Gospel is hindered and the Churche of Christ disturbed T. C. And if it be shewed that this is necessarie for the Churche it can not be but profitable for the common wealth nay the profit of it may easyly appeare for that by the censures and discipline of the Churche as they are in this booke described men are kept back from committing of great disorders of stealing adulterie murder c. whylest the smaller faults of lying and vncomely 〈◊〉 of harde and cholerike speaches which the magistrate both not commonly punishe be corrected Io. Whitgifte If it be necessarie for the present state of the Churche it is also profitable for the present state of the cōmon welth for I perceiue no such distinction of the common wealth the church that they should be counted as it were two seueral bodies gouerned with diuers lawes diuers Magistrates except the Church be linked with an heathenish idolatrous cōmon wealth The ciuil Magistrate may not take vpon him What ecclestasticali functions the 〈◊〉 Magistrate may not take vpon him ▪ such Ecclesiastical functiōs as are only proper to the Minister of the Church as preaching of the wordé administring of the Sacramentes excommunicating and suche lyke but that he hath no authoritie in the Churche to make and execute lawes for the Churche and in things pertaining to the Churche as Discipline Ceremonies c. so that he doo nothing agaynst the woorde of God though the Papistes affirme it neuer so stoutely yet is the contrarie moste true and sufficiently proued by men of notable learning as Master Iewell Bishop of Salisburie Maister Horne Bishop of Winchester Maister Nowell Deane of Paules in their bookes written against Papistes holding your assertion to whose painefull and learned writings I res rre the Reader for the auoyding of too muche prolixitie I doe not well vnderstande what is mente by these woordes Naye the profite of it maye easyly appeare for that by the censures and discipliue of the Churche as they are in this booke described men are kepte backe from committing of greater disorders of stealyng adulterie murther c. whylest the smaller faultes of lying and vncomely iesting of harde and cholerike speaches whiche the Magistrate dothe not commonly punysh be corrected Doe you not thinke the punishemente for stealing and murther to be sharpe enough or doe you thynke that the feare of the Discipline of the Churche will more terrifie men from these vices than the feare of deathe Or doe you doubte whether the Ciuill Magistrate hathe Authoritye to appoynte anye other punyshemente for these and suche lyke crimes than is prescribed in the Iudiciall Lawe of Moyses For thys is nowe called in controuersie and begynneth to bée table talke or are you perswaded that the Ciuill Magistrate eyther maye not or will not correcte lying vncomely iesting harde and cholerike speaches Or that if these were punished by the Discipline of the Churche men woulde rather be terrified from the greater crymes than they will be if they be punished with ciuill correction Truly I thinke that the ciuill Magistrate hath sufficient authoritie to prouide remedies for all suche mischieues without altering the state eyther of the church or of the cōmon wealth But let the indifferent Reader iudge whether you goe aboute to wring the swoorde out of the Magistrates hand or no or at the least so to order the matter that it be neuer drawne out to punishe vice but with the consent and at the appoyntment of you and your seigniorie T. C. And vndoubtedly seing that the churche and common wealth doe embrace and kisse one an other seing they be like vnto Hypocrates twinnes which were sick together wel together laughed together and weped together and alwayes lyke affected it can not be but that the breaches of the common wealth haue proceeded from the hurts of the Church and the wants of the one from the lackes of the other Neither is it to be hoped for that the common wealth shal florish vntill the Church be reformed Io. Whitgifte All this I grant and God be thanked therfore if we shal measure the state of the church with the florishing estate wise gouernment of the cōmon wealth we shall haue no great cause to complaine but to burste oute into moste hartie thankes vnto God for the same and most humbly desire the continuance therof I do not say that the Churche is without fault for then should I affirme an impossibilitie but I thinke the faultes that are rather to be in the persons than in the lawes rather in the gouernours than in the kinde of gouernment neyther woulde I haue men eyther Puritanes Donatistes or Anabaptists
to dreame of such a Church as Plato did of a Common wealth Aristotle of felicitie and the Stoicks of their iuste man muche lesie to make contention in the Church or deuide themselues from the same if al things go not according to their fantasie for then shal they neuer be quiet with any Churche no not long with that Church which they themselues do presently best lyke of Surely if this rule be certaine that the Common wealth shal not flourish The rule of T. C. returned against himselfe vntil the Church be reformed then this may be a good token vnto vs that this Churche of Englande is reformed bicause the Common wealth doth flourish Neither doe I speake this to flatter the Magistrates and to sewe quisshions vnder their elbows as it pleaseth some to reporte but I speake it before God I speake it as I thinke and the rather I vtter it to deliuer both the state of the Churche and also of the common wealth of Englande from the vnthankfull vnnaturall and slanderous tongues of such as séeke to deface and depraue them both I will not defend the vice the negligence the securitie of any man I shall be as bolde and as readie to tel euen the best thereof in time and place as occasion is ministred and my duetie shall require as any of those shall be which woulde séeme to be farthest from all kinde of flatterie T. C. And it is also certaine that as the Church shal euery daye more and more decay vntill it be made euen with the grounde onlesse the walles be buylded the ruines repaired S the weight of it if it fal will either quite pull downe the Common wealth or leaue it such as none whiche feare God will take any pleasure in it For seeing Salomon sayeth that by wisedome whiche is the worde of God Kings doe gouerne and Princes doe beare rule it can not be but as that wisedome is eyther contemned or neglected or otherwyse abridged of hir free and full course so Princes and Magistrates and consequently their common wealthes eyther goe to wrack or decay or at the least want so muche of the flourishing estate as there wanteth of that word of God which he hath appoynted to be their stay And howsoeuer before the comming of our Sauioure Christ amongst the Athenians Lacedemonians and Romanes and since his comming in dyners places where this wisedome hath not ben heard of there may seme to haue bin some shewes of eyther florishing or tollerable common wealths yet neyther haue those endured but according to the prophecie of Daniell haue bene broken all to peeces so that there is not so much of them left as a sheard to fetche fyre in neyther yet can those kingdomes whiche haue the knowledge of the Gospell reuealed vnto them looke for that long suffering and pacience of God towards them wherwith those ignorant kingdoms haue ben borne with For as the benefite is greater towardes these than towardes the other so is the iudgement swifter against them than against the other if that grace which was not offered vnto them being offered vnto these bee refused and made light of And in these especially is and shall be fulfilled that whiche the Prophet Esay saith that it shall be in the later days that euery nation and kingdom which shal not serue the Church shall be destroyed As of the other syde the full and whole placing of our sauiour Christe in his throne is the perpetuall stay and stayed perpetuitie of all Princes in theyr seates Io. Whitgifte All this is true for if any nation shall refuse the word of God offered vnto it or not suffer Christ wholly to be placed in his throne no doubt God will poure vppon that nation his plagues as he hath done vpon al other that haue runne into the same contempt But would you make your reader beléeue that bycause this Churche of England doth not admit your kind of gouernment therefore the walles of it be broken the word of God contemned and Christe not suffered wholly to be placed in hys throne We admit the Gospell wholly and in gouernments the magistrates take vpon them no office only proper to Christ neyther yet any authoritie which is not by the word of God limited vnto them These wordes might aptly haue bin spoken if you had written against the state of the Churche in Fraunce or any such like kingdome as refuseth the Gospell offered vnto it and most cruelly persecuteth the true professors of the same I do not excuse such in the Churche of England as contemne the word of God neither do I iustify the whole Church for not receiuing the Gospell offred by bringing foorth the frutes therof as it ought to do But I exhort euery mā from the highest to the lowest euen in the bowells of Iesus Christ to haue a better regard thervnto least it be sayd vnto vs as it is sayd vnto the Church of Ephesus Apoc. 2. Sed babeo aduersum te quod charitatem tuam pristinam c. I haue some thing against Apoc. 2. thee bycause thou hast forsaken thy former loue c. And to the Hebrues 6 For the earth Hebr. 6 whiche drinketh in rayne that commeth ofte vpon it and bringeth foorth herbes meete for them by whome it is dressed receiueth blessing of God But that whiche beareth thornes and briers is reproued and is neere vnto curssing whose ende is to be burned For surely euen these contentions stirred vp in the Churche where the Gospell is truly preached are argumentes that we be voyde of loue and peace the chiefe and principall tokens and frutes of the Gospell T C. And therfore if this booke shall come into the handes of any that haue accesse vnto hir Maiestie the head of this common wealth or vnto hir most honorable counsatle the shoulders therof my humble sute and heartie request in the presence of God is that according as their callings will suffer them they will put them in remembrance of these things which otherwise they know better than I and that they would set before them the example of Moses who was not contented to haue brought the people out of Egipt * T. C. maketh greater accopt of the gouernmet than of the Gospell it selfe ▪ for he 〈◊〉 the state of this Churche to he wand ing in the wildern but would verie fain also haue conducted them into the lande of Canaan that is would gladly haue bene the instrument of the full and whole deliuerance of the people And seing that the Lord doth offer them this honour which he denied vnto his seruant Moses that they woulde not make themselues guiltie of so greate vnthankfulnesse as will folowe of the forsaking of so incomparable a benefite That hir Maiestie especially and hir most honorable counsayle would sette before them the example of Dauid who although he made a great reformation of those things which were defaced by Saul yet he was not content that the Arke
the priests was diminished whiche should haue sufficed for to prepare the sacrifices and therefore they desired the help of the Leuites that al things might be done more diligently there was also another cause of the Leuites helpe for the sanctifying of the temple and the preparation of the sacrifice was so suddainly commaunded that many of the priestes had not time to sanctifye themselues according to the lawe which required a certaine space for the same and the Leuites might be sanctified with lesse adoo and in shorter time And surely euen the very circumstances of the place dothe proue this to be the true vnderstanding of it For these be the words that immediatly go before But the priests were too few and were not able to fleay all the burnt offrings therfore their brethren the Leuites did help them vntil they had ended the worke and vntill other priests were sanctifyed 2. Chro. 29. 34 ▪ Your second assertion that is that the people were yet more earnest and more willing than eyther the Leuites or the priests I thinke is grounded vpon the. 15. verse of the. 30. Chapter which is this Afterward they slew the passouer the foureteene day of the second moneth and the priests and Leuites were ashamed and sanctifyed them selues and broughte the burnt offerings into the house of the Lord. Truly I sée not how you can collect any 2. Chro. 30. 15. such thing out of these words I know that some do gather such a note of that place But I do not vnderstand the reason of it Howsoeuer it be and howsoeuer you abuse the scriptures to iustify your selues I doubt not but that a greate number of those whome you contemme and séeke to deface do presently and will to their liues ende shewe that zeale of religion that diligence in their calling that vprightnesse in conuersation which becommeth them and whiche they are well assured pleaseth God neyther do I in so saying condemne the godly zeale of any but I admonish all to take héede of a preposterous and affectionated zeale such as is spoken of in the. 30. Page of the second edition of my answer to the Admonition The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 9. And I humbly craue and most ernestly desire of those whiche bare the cheefe titles in the ecclesiasticall functions that as we do in part correct our negligence by the example of the forwardnesse and redinesse of the people so they would suffer themselues to be put in remembrance of their ducties by vs which are vnderneath them and that they would not neglect this golden gift of gods grace in admonishing them by cause the Lorde doth offer it in a treane or earthen vessell but that they would first consider that as Naaman the Syrian prince receiued great commoditie by following the aduice of his mayd and after of his man And Abigael being a wise woman singular profite by obeying the counsell of hir seruant so they may receiue of tentimes profitable aduertisement by those which are in lower places than they themselues be Then let them thinke that as Naaman was neuerthelesse noble for obeying the voice of his seruaunts nor Abigaell neuerthelesse wise bycause she listned vnto the words of hir man so it cannot deminish their true honoure nor empaire the credite of their godly and vncounterfaite wisedome if they giue care vnto that which is spoken by their inferiours Io. Whitgifte This humilitie appeareth to be counterfaite by the opprobrious speaches and great contempt that you shew towards them in the rest of this booke What diligence you are prouoked vnto by the forwardnesse and redinesse of the people I know not but euery man may sée you are ready to shake off your calling vpon euery light occasion Neither will you preach in those places where the Gospell hath not bin so well planted but there only you loyter where there is lesse nede and where you easily may make sturres and moue contention as experience sufficiently teacheth I know none no not of the best that refuseth to heare either you or any other modestly admonishing neither haue you any cause hereof to complaine but your stomackes are such and your arrogancie so great that you passingly abuse your selues toward those whome indéede you ought to reuerence and with all duty obey I maruell that you will confesse yourselfe to be vnderneath them seing you so cry out against superioritie in the clergie and claime such interest in equalitie but I may not stand in answering words The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 10. And last of all that as if they had not listned vnto those simple persons the one had perished in his leprosie the other had bin slayne with hir familie * This is glorious talke builded vpon a false ground euen so if they shall for any worldly respect of honoure riches or feare of being accounted either vnaduised in taking this course or light or inconstant in forsaking it stop their cares against this louing admonition of the Lord they prouoke his anger not against their health or against their life but against their owne soules by exercising of vnlawfull authoritie and by taking vnto them partly such things as belong by no meanes vnto the Church and partly which are common vnto them with the whole Churche or else with other the ministers and gouernours of the same whereof I beseeche them humbly to take the better heede for that the iudgement of the Lord will be vpon a great part of them by so much the heauier by how much they haue not only beleeued the Gospell but also haue receiued this grace of god that they should suffer for it So that if they will neither take example of diuers their superiours the nobles of this realme nor be admonished by vs of the lower sorte wherein we hope better of them yet they woulde remember their former tunes and correct themselues by themselues and seing they haue bin content for the Gospels sake to quit the necessarie things of this life they wold not thinke much for the discipline which is no small part of the Gospell hauing both things necessary and commodious to part from that which is not only in them superfluous and hath nothing but a vaine ostentation which wil vanish as the shadow but also is hurtfull vnto them and pernicious vnto the Church which thing I do more largely and plainly lay foorth in this Booke Io. Whitgifte Surely if they do for any suche respects refuse any admonition giuen vnto them for the auoyding of such things as be vnlawfull and as they vniustly retaine then no doubt they are worthy of great reprehension but if your Admonition be not louing but spitefull not brotherly but vnchristian nay no Admonition in déede but a very scolding and vncharitable rayling if the thinges you would haue them forsake bée bothe lawfull and conueniente for them to vse and contrariwise the things that you moue them vnto tend to confusion and ouerthrow of the Gospell and of
the state as they do then truly haue they to consider of such disturbers of the peace of the Church and according to their office and duty prouide a conueniente remedy for them knowing that it is the extreame refuge of Satan when by other meanes he cannot then to séeke the ouerthrow of the Gospell thorow contention about externall things The Epist. of T. C. Sect. II. An other exception against the fauorers of this cause is taken for that they propounde it out of time which is that the Jewes said that the time was not yet come to builde the Lords house but it is knowne what the Prophet answered And if no time wer vnseasonable in that kind of material building wherin there be some times as of sommer more opportune and fit than others how can there be any vntimely building in this spiritual house where as long as it is called to day men are commanded to further this worke And as for those which say we come to late that this shoulde haue bin done in the beginning and can not now be done without the ouerthrow of all for mending of a peece they do little consider that S. Paule compareth that which is good in the buylding vnto golde and siluer and precious stones and that whiche is euill layde vpon the foundation vnto stubble and hey and woode Likewise therfore as the stubble the hey the wood be easily by the fyre consumed without any losse vnto the gold or siluer or precious stones so the corrupt thynges in this buylding may be easily taken away without any hurt or hinderaunce vnto that whiche is pure and sounde And if they put such confidence in this similitude as that they will therby without any testimonie of the worde of God stay the further buylding or correcting the faultes of the house of the Lorde which by his manifest commaundement ought to be done with all spede then besides that they be verie vncunning buylders which can not mende the faults without ouerthrowe of al especially when as the fault is not in the foundation they must remember that as the mean which is vsed to gather the children of God is called a building so it is called a planting And therfore as dead twigs riotous or superfluous branches or what soeuer hindereth the growth of the vine tree may be cut of without rooting vp the vine so the vnprofitable things of the Church may be taken away without any ouerthrow of those things which are wel established And seeing that Christ and Beliall can not agree it is strange that the pure doctrine of the one and the corruptions of the other should cleaue so fast together that pure doctrine can not be with hir safetie seuered from the corruptions when as they are rather lyke vnto that parte of Daniels image which was compounded of claye and iron and therfore coulde not cleaue or sticke one with an other Io. Whitgifte They did not only propound it out of time after the Parliament was ended but out of order also that is in the maner of a libell with false allegations and applications of the Scriptures opprobrious speaches and slaunders not to reforme but to deforme the Church and to confound al. The rest in this part is Petitio principij the petition of the principle for you take that as confessed true which will not be graunted vnto you as shall more at large hereafter appeare The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 12. It is further sayd that the setters forward of this cause are contentious and in mouing questions giue occasion to the Papistes of staundering the religion and to the weake of offence But if it be founde to be both true which is propounded and a thing necessarie about whiche we contende then hath this accusation no ground to stand en For peace is commended to vs with these conditions if it be possible if it lye in vs. Now it is not possible it lyeth not in vs to conceale the Rom. 1 ▪ Cor. 10. truth we can doe nothing against it but for it It is a prophane saying of a prophane man that an vniust peace is better than a iust warre It is a diuine saying of an heathen man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is good to contend for good things The Papistes haue no matter of reioycing seyng they haue greater sharper controuersies at home and seing this tendeth both to the further opening of theyr shame and thrustyng out of their remnants whych yet remayne among vs. The weake may not be offended consyderyng that euen in the Church of God and among those of the Churche there hathe bene as greate varieties of iudgementes as these are For what weightier controuersies can there be than whether wee shall ryse agayne or no These were offences but woe to the authors whether circumcision were necessarye to be obserued of those whych beleeued And yet the fyrste was amongest the Churche of the Corinthes the other was fyrst in Hierusalem and Antioche and after in the Churches of Galatia and yet they the Churches and that the true religion whyche was there professed Io. Whitgifte It is very true and sufficiently proued in that Answere to the Admonition that the authours thereof bée contentidus and giue occasion to the Papistes of staundering the religion professed and to the weake of offence For whosoeuer troubleth the peace of the Churche or deuide themselues from the Churche for externall thinges they be contentious but these men doe so therefore they be contentious the maior proposition is grounded vppon the woordes of Saincte Paule 1. Corinth 8. 9. and. 10. but especiallye vppon these woordes of the. 11. Chapter If anye bee contentious we haue no suche custome neyther the Churches of God Whereas he purposely speaketh of such as be contentious for externall matters wherevpon that is grounded that Bullinger saith That those be contentious which trouble and deuide the Bulling church for externall things And that also whiche Zuinglius in his book de baptismo speaking of contentious Anabaptistes writeth They goe about innouations of their owne priuate authoritie in those Churches where the Gospell is truly taught and that in externall Zuinglius de baptis things And in his Ecclesiastes he calleth them authours of contentions and troublers of the church which striue about externall matters And surely this is an euident token that Zuingl in ecclesiast the accusation is true bicause they and their companions for the mosre parte make contention wheresoeuer they come and especially in those places where the Gospell hath with most diligence bin taught as experiēce sufficiently proueth Furthermore the time and maner of publishing their pamphlets argueth y e same most euidently The truth and necessitie of those things for the which they contend rest as yet in triall Surely if they be matters necessarie to saluation then is there some iust cause of breking the peace of the Church for them but if they be matters of
greately suspected the slaunderous reportes of the backbiter and of the vnlearned tongue the one bicause he loueth to speake euill and heare euill of all those that be not in all pointes inclinable to his fansie whereof I haue greate experience being my selfe most vniustly sclaundered by that viperous kind of men the other bicause they be not able to iudge of controuersies according to learning and knowledge and therefore are ruled by affection and carried headlong with blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous opinions Lastly bycause I know sundry in all respects worthy men much more able to deale in such matters than I am But when I considered my duty towards God to his Church and to our most gracious Lady and soueraigne Elizabeth hir Maiestie by whose ministerie God hath giuen his Gospell free passage vnto vs the first stop and hindrance was answered For I thought that that dutie ought not to be omitted for any such cause seeing God and not man shall be my iudge and also that not he which defendeth the truth and confu eth errours but he that impugneth the truth and spreddeth sects is the authoure of contention Likewise when I remembred that it was no newe thing to haue contentions sects and schismes in the Church of Christ especially whē it enioyeth externall peace and that we had manifest examples there of from tyme to tyme fyrste in Peter and Paule ad Gal. 2. Paule and Barnabas Acto 15. then in the Churche of the Corinthians 1. Cor. 1. 3. Afterwardes betwixte the orientall Churche and occidentall Churche touching Easter and suche like matters Betwixte the Bishops of Aphrica and the Byshoppes of Italie for rebaptising of Heretikes and sundry tymes yea vsually in the externall peace of the Churche as may be more at large seene in Eusebius lib. 4. eccl histo cap. 6. libr. 5. cap. 24. 25. 26. li. 8. c. Likewise in Ruffinus lib. 1. ca. 1. In Zozom lib. 6. cap. 4. In Basilius Magnus ep 61. ad fratres episcopos in occidente ep 69. in sundry other auncient and learned histories and writers For the second point I was satisfyed For I thought that that coulde be no slaunder to thys Churche which by the malice of Sathan hath ben practised in all Churches euen since the ascention of Christe Thirdly when I perceiued that these men against whom I now write did agree with the aduersaries in defacing the state of Religion the order of Common prayers the Ministerie the Sacramentes the kinde of Gouernment c. vsed and allowed in this Realme of Englande and that in as opprobrious and spitefull maner as the aduersaries doo lykewise that they seeke to ouerthrowe the selfe same pillers of this Church with the aduersaries although not by the selfe same meanes I thoughte that the confutation and ouerthrowe of the one should be the confutation and ouerthrow of the other and therfore the aduersaries to haue small cause in deede of reioycing Agaynst backbyters slaunderers and vnlearned toungs I shall by Gods grace arme my self with pacience for their talke is no sufficient cause for a man to abstaine from doing his dutie To conclude I although the vnworthyest and vnmeetest of a great number was bold to take vpon me this enterprise partely to shewe that the booke called the Admonition is not such but that it may easily be answered and especially to satisfie myne owne conseience for I considered that if no man had taken vpon him the enuie of the cōmon sort in with standing the enterprises and proceedings of the Anabaptistes when they began in Germanie Anabaptisme had ouerrunne those Churches and vtterly destroyed them These were the reasons that satisfied the former obiections and especially moued me to take vpon me this labour wherwith if I can also satisfie others I haue my desire if not yet haue I done my duetie and satisfied myne owne conscience And forasmuche as the matter toucheth the state of the whole Churche of Englande I thought it moste meete to dedicate this my booke rather vnto the same generally than to any one particular member thereof protesting that if I haue affirmed any thing therein that by learnyng good reasons may be proued erroneous I will reforme the same for I wholly submitte it to the rule of Gods worde and the iudgement of those that be learned discrete and wyse The Lorde blesse thee O deare spouse of Christe with the continuance of his Gospell of the Queenes Maiestie and of godlie peace and quietnesse Amen An answere to the whole Epistle to the Church T. C. WHat causes either pulled you forwarde or thruste you backwarde to write or not to write and how in this dispute with your selfe in the end you were resolued to write in this sorte I leaue it vnto the iudgement of the Lorde who only knoweth the secrets of the hart and wil in his good time vnseale them But if there be any place of coniecture the hatred of cōtention which you set downe as the first and principal cause that beate you backe from writing might wel haue bin put as the last and least or rather none at all For if peace had bin so precious vnto you as you pretend you woulde not haue brought so many hard wordes bitter reproches e mylike speaches as it were sticks and coales to double and treble the heate of contention If the sharpnesse of the Admonition misliked you and you thinke that they outreached in some vehemencie of words how could you more effectually haue confuted that than to haue in a quiet and I de spirit set them in the way which in your opinion had left it Now in words condemning it and approuing it in your deedes I will not say that you do not so muche mislike this sharpnesse as you are A charitable figure sory that you are preuented and are not the first in it But this I may well say vnto you whiche he said Quid verba audiam cum facta videam what should I heare words whē I see the dedes In the fourthe reason whereby you were discouraged to write if by backbiters and vnlearned tonges viperous kind of men not able to iudge of controuersies caried away with affections and blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous ▪ opinions you meane al those that thinke not as you do in these matters I answer for my selfe and for as many as I knowe of them that they are they which first desire so it be truly to heare and speake all good of you But if that bee not through your perseuerance in the maintenance of the corruptions of this Church which you should help to purge then the same are they that desire that both the euill whiche you haue done and that which you haue yet in your hart to do may be knowne to the lesse discredite of the truthe and sinceritie which you with such might and maine do striue against Touching our (a) A manifest
peruerting of the words and meaning of the Epistle vnlearned tonges we had rather a great deale they were vnlearned than they should be as theirs * which haue taught their tonges to speake falsly And how vnlearned soeuer Ierem. 9. 5 you would make the world beleeue that we and our tongs be I hope through the goodnesse of God they shall be learned ynough to defend the truth against all the learning that you shall be able to assault it with If those be (b) Slaunderous and cursed speakers be not the generation of Christe the generation of Christe whiche you cal viperouse kinde of men Esay 53. 8. knowe you that you haue not opened your mouth against earth but you haue set it agaynst heauen and for all indifferent iudgement it will easily perceiue that you are as farre from the spirit of * John Baptist as you are neere to his manner of speach which you vse whither it be affection Math. 3. 7 or blind zeale that we follow and are driuen by it will then appeare when the reasons of both sides being laid out shal be wayed indifferently Wheras you say that your dutie towards God the Queene hir Maiesty moued you to take this labour in hād it will fall out vpon the discourse that as you haue not serued the Lord God in this enterprise and work of yours so haue you done nothing lesse than any godly dutie which you owe vnto hir Maiestie so that the best that can be thought of you herein is that where in an euill matter you could yeld no dutie yet now you haue done that which you thoughte a duetie which iudgement we will so long keepe of you vntil you shall by oppugmng of a knowne truth declare the contrary which we hope will not be What truth it is that we impugne and you defēd let it in the name of God appeare by our seueral proofs and answers of both sides And as for the slanderous surmises wherby in your third and last consideration you set the Papists of the one side of vs and the Anabaptists of the other and vs in the middest reaching out our hands as it were to them both first it ought not to be straunge vnto vs myserable sinners seeing that the Lord hunselfe without all sinne was placed in the middest of two greeuous malefactours as though he had bin worse than they both Then for answer of these slanderous speaches I will referre the Reader to those places where these generall charges are giuen out in more particular manner Io. Whitgifte It is well that you are content to rest in his iudgement vntill the time come for so indéed ought we to do as the Apostle admonisheth 1. Cor. 4. Nolite ante tempus quicquam 1. Cor. 4 ▪ iudicare Iudge not before the time vntill the Lord come c. Your coniecture is a méere coniecture in déede for vndoubtedly these so many harde words of mine bitter reproches c. would not haue bin kept so secret of you if you coulde haue had them foorthcomming But be it so as you will néedes haue it yet haue I not in like bitternesse of speach spoken against them as Zuinglius Bucer Caluine Bullinger Gualter c. haue done against the like troublers of the Church who had notwithstanding all these pretences and clokes to shadow their contentions with which either you or the Authours of the Admonition do alleadge for they pretende the Glory of God the Puritie of Religion the safetie of the Church as Master Bucer witnesseth in his Coment ▪ vpon the Ephe. Cap. 4. Master Caluine in his booke aduersus Anabap. Gastius in his booke de exordio erroribus catabaptist Zuinglius in his booke called Ecclesi And Bullinger in his booke aduersus Anabaptist as I haue by setting downe their very wordes more at large declared in the second edition of my answere to the Admonition But graunt that for the loue of peace and hatred of contention and earnest zeale that I beare to this Church of Christ in England and dutifull affection to my souerayne I haue sometimes passed the bounds of modestie wherein I wil neyther accuse nor excuse my selfe yet are my speaches in bitternesse farre inferiour to those opprobries slanders and disdainefull words vttered either in the first or second Admonition or in your Replie And where haue you learned to espie a mote in another mans eye and not to sée the beame that is in your owne or what poynte of Rhetoricke do you call it to charge me in the beginning of your booke with that that you yourselfe most outrageously fall into sundry times almost in euery leafe or how vnwise are you to giue vnto me that councell which you yourselfe in no respect obserue But of both our modesties and manners of writing we must be contente that other men iudge which shall reade our bookes and therefore it is but in vaine either for you to accuse or me to excuse God graunt vs both the spirit of modestie and humilitie In my fourth reason by backbiters I meane all such as are ready to heare euill and speake euill of all men that be not of their iudgement and such as cease not continually to depraue those especially that be of any countenance and calling the which vice doth aboundantly reigne I will not say in all but in a great sort of your sect and those learned also I could name some which go from place to place for that purpose especially although vnder other pretences and in this qualitie they agrée with the Anabaptists as may appeare more plainly in the notes of the Anabaptists qualities conteined in the seconde edition of my answere to the Admonition to the which for breuities sake I referre you By vnlerned tongues I meane such of the common people as you haue deluded who in déede are caried away by a blinde and preposterous zeale and therefore the rather to be excused I know there be some both of the learned vnlearned sorte among you that haue milder spirites than the rest such I do not blante in this point I would other would follow their modestie As for the good that you and other woulde so gladly speake of me it euill appeareth in this booke where you do but deuise how possibly you may deface me in déede bothe you and some others if you considered your duties towardes mée and my dealings towardes you whilest you kepte your selues within your bondes haue small occasion to whisper of me in corners as you do or otherwise to deale so vnchristianly with me The euill that you know by me vtter it and spare not I desire no silence so that it be done where I may come to the answering of it And surely he that shall reade this your booke cannot but conceiue that if you knew any euill thing by me it would not be concealed But to all reproches I will answere as they come in order and proclayme defyance againste you for
any thing that you can iustly charge me with I intend not to mainteine any corruptions of this Church I will séeke for the redresse thereof as earnestly as you shall and more orderly and therefore I trust more effectually But I neither can nor may suffer that which is lawfully and by due order established vnlawfully and out of order by you to be defaced This your pretence of clensing the Church from corruptions is but the accustomed excuse of the Nouatians Donatists and Anabaptistes as you know welynough and therefore before you condemne me to be a defender of the corruptions of this Church you must first proue them to be corruptions and when you haue so done you must also declare them to be such corruptions as deserue this stirre and hurly burly for them for there were great corruptions in the Church of the Corinthes and yet the Apostle greatly misliked such as stirred vp contentions for the same so hath there bin always imperfections in the Church especially in externall things and yet such as therfore did breake the peace of it were always counted as contentious and condeinned as schismatiques looke the writers before of me mentioned in their bookes against the Anabaptists As I saide before so I say againe let the euill which I haue done and that which you say I haue yet in my hart to do wherein you take vpon you the office of God be proclaimed at the standard in Cheape or elsewhere so it be done publiquely that I may answere it and not in corners as it hath bin and if I faile in my purgation let me sustaine the paine due for the same I aske no fauoure I feare no accuser I refuse no indifferent iudge And if you haue any thing to say against me do it orderly do it lawfully not in corners not in libels This I speake not to iustify my selfe before God for in that respect I know more imperfections in my selfe than I do in any other bycause I know my selfe better than I know any man else but before man in doing my duety in obseruing lawes in walking in my vocation c. I do not accuse you all for lacke of learning neither can you or any man else gather any such thing of my words God graunt you may vse your learning to better purpose than to the disturbing of the Church and stirring vp of contentions where the Gospell is truly preached This is but a slender collection to say that therefore I accuse you all of vnlearnednesse bycause I say that I greatly suspected the slanderous reports of backbiters and of the vnlearned tongue Surely there be both learned and vnlearned tongues among you too muche giuen to backbiting and slandering as it is well knowne and yet I accuse not all Let them which finde this imperfection in them selues in the name of God amende it for it is a foule faulte In that they like vipers with slaunderous reports sting men priuately they be not the generation of Christ but of Christes aduersary howsoeuer otherwise they séeme to be godly and zelous For Christ doth will them to loue their enimies to pray Math. 5. for them that curse them c. so farre woulde he haue them from backbiting and slandering of their brethren and of such as professe the name of Christe with them He that speaketh against slanderous tonges doth not open his mouth against Heauen but against that vice which is earthly yea hellish neither must you thinke that your Church is so pure but that it hath in it a number such as well deserue this reprehension And therefore these great speaches of yours mighte well haue bin forborne your learning and reasons which you so oft boast of must be left to the iudgement of others What duty I haue performed towards God and hir Maiestie lieth not in your power to iudge I am fully perswaded that I haue done that which my duty towardes them both requireth of me and vrgeth me vnto in this behalfe and I doubt not but that therein I haue done good seruice to them both Your iudgement of me I do not greatly regard so long as you are affected as you are I will die rather than impugne a knowne truth neither will I cease from defending of that which I am fully perswaded to be a truth In my third and last consideration all is true that I said neither can you denie it Most true it is that in defacing this present state of Religion that is the order of common prayers the ministerie the Sacramentes the kynde of gouernment you ioyne with the Papistes although you vse in some poyntes contrarie reasons and in disquieting the Churche for externall things you ioyne with the Anabaptistes And in opprobrious speaches and tauntes you are inferioure to neyther of them bothe And yet I do not say that you be either Papistes or Anabaptistes Proue that I herein speake vntruly of you and I will willingly make you amends A briefe Examination of the reasons vsed in the Booke called an Admonition to the Parliament Io. Whitgifte FIrst in that booke the scripture is most vntollerably abused and vnlearnedly applyed quoted only in their margent to delude both such as for lacke of learning cānot and such as either for slothfulnesse or some preiudicate opinion will not examine the same as I haue particularly declared in my answer following T. C. An ansvver to that vvhich is called a briefe examination of the reasons vsed in the Admonition to the Parliament IF the scriptures had bin applyed to the maintenance of the abhomination of the Masse and some Vaine shifts to coloure the vn apt allegati s of scriptu es by the 〈◊〉 Charitie do he not couer open and notorious faults other of the grosest of antichristianitie you could haue sayd no more nor vsed vehementer speache than this that they are most vntollerably abused and vnlearnedly applyed And then where is charitie which couereth the multitude of faultes especially in brethren when you do not only not Pro. 10. couer them but also take away their garmentes whereby they are couered I will not denie but that there be some few places quoted which might haue bin spared but there are a great number whiche M. Doctor tosseth and throweth away so lightly which he shall perceiue to sit nearer him than he is or at the least seemeth to be aware of And to bring to passe that the quotations in the margent mighte appeare to the reader more absurd M Doctor hathe besides the * There is no su e aduantage taken aduantage which he taketh of the faults of the Printer vsed two vnlawfull practises especially Wherof the one is that whereas the Admonition doth quote the scripture not only to proue the matters which it handleth ▪ but sometimes also to note the place from whence the phrase of speach is taken M. Doctor dothe go about to make his reader beleeue that those places whiche bee alleadged for proofe of the
vp to the Councell in the time of king Edwarde the sixte the true Copie wherof I haue Surely he was no Adamite but a man of singular iudgement and learning Touching my reading in the Schooles whiche you héere opprobriously obiect vnto me thoughe I knowe that the Uniuersitie had a farre better opinion of me than I deserued and that there were a great many whiche were in all respectes better able to doe that office than my selfe yet I truste I did my duetie and satisfied them What logike I vttered in my Lectures and howe I read I referre to their iudgementes who surely if they suffred me so long to continue in that place augmented the stipende for my sake and were so desirous to haue me still to remayne in that function reading so vnlearnedly as you woulde make the worlde beléeue I dyd may be thoughte either to be without iudgement them selues or else to haue bin very carelesse for that exercise Well I will not speake that whiche I mighte iustly speake by this prouocation of yours For I counte this either an heathenishe or a chyldishe kinde of confuting to fall from the matter to the deprauing of the person God graunt that we bothe may so knowe our giftes and our selues that we may acknowledge them to be his and employ them to the edifying of the Churche not to the disgracing one of another Scientia inflat c. I did knowe that this my booke should come into the handes bothe of the learned and vnlearned and therfore as néere as I could I did frame my selfe to serue them bothe And bicause all or the moste parte of your proofes consiste of these or the lyke kinde of arguments I thought it conuenient to set downe a note of them before my booke and that for the learned sake wherof I do not repent me neither do I thinke that it commeth out of place But to obserue what arte heere is shewed you would gladly knowe you say what place of the fallacions either an argument ab authoritate negatiue is or of negatiues by comparison c. I maruell that you will so openly dally I intitle this treatise A briefe examination of the reasons vsed in the booke c. And afterwards I call them argumentes I doo not call them fallacions whiche notwithstanding I mighte haue done in some respecte but seeing you cauill about words tell me where I call either an argument ab authoritate negatiuè or of negatiues by comparison fallacions Doo you not blushe to trifle on this sorte and to séeke occasion of cauilling in so small matters I am sure that you are not so ignorante in Logike but that you knowe there be many false argumentes whiche be not amongest the fallacions What saye you to an argument à specie negatiuè and suche lyke What say you to an argument ex solis negatiuis or ex solis particularibus or to that that otherwise dothe offende in any moode or figure or to be shorte to suche as be in any place of Logike negatiue or affirmatiue when the nature of the place will not beare it For you knowe that in some places only negatiue reasons hold in some other places only affirmatiue Concerning an argument ab authoritate negatiuè that it is no good argumente Arg. ab autho ritate negatiuè all Logicians confesse neither is he to be thoughte to haue any skill in Logike at all that will denie it Onely the authoritie of the Scripture is to be excepted in matters pertayning to saluation or damnation bicause therein it is perfecte and absolute as I haue declared in my answere to the Admonition Touching the argument of négatiues by comparison which you thinke to Arg. of negatiues by comparison be so straunge it is moste vsuall in the Scriptures and moste consonant to reason when God sayde vnto Samuell 1. Reg. 8. They haue not refused thee but me He ment not absolutely that they had not reiected Samuell but by that one negatiue by comparison he vnderstandeth two affirmatiues that is that they had reiected Samuell and not him alone but chiefly they had reiected God But of this kinde of argument looke the. 2. booke and 12. chapter of worthy Cranmer Archbishop of Canterburie which he writeth of the Sacrament where he answering the obiections of the Papistes out of Chrysostome touching transubstantiation handleth this argument at large and setteth it out by many examples to the whiche place I referre the Reader and you too that you may sée your lacke of discretion in finding faulte where none is Those be but slender answeres to these arguments except you quit your selfe better in the rest of your Replie it had bin mnche safer for your cause to haue still kept silence Io. Whitgifte A briefe examination c. The thirde kynde of argument is called petitio principij whych is Arg. à petitione principij when a man frameth vnto him selfe principles of his owne deuise grounded neither vpon authoritie neither yet vpon substantial reason and then vpon the same will conclude his purpose whiche is vitiosissimum genus argumentandi a very erroneous kynde of reasoning as these men do in vsing these two false principles the one when they say that to be inuented by an Antichristian Pope which was not so inuented the other when they say that nothing may be vsed in the Church of Christ which was inuented by the Pope or vsed in the Popes Churche which can not be true as in sundrie places of the booke I haue declared The selfe same reasons moued the Aërians to forsake the order of the Church and to commaunde their disciples to do the contrarie of that that the Churche did We borrowe good lawes of the Gentiles and we vse the Churches Belles Pulpits and many other things vsed of Papistes c. The fourth kinde of reason is of negatiues by comparison as thys Arg. à negatiuis per come parationem Priestes and Ministers are to be knowne by their doctrine not by their apparell Ergo they ought not to haue distinct apparell from other men This argument followeth not for negatiues by comparison are not simply to be vnderstanded but by the way of comparison And therfore of the former sentence thus we may conclude that the apparell is not to be esteemed as a note of difference in comparison to learning and doctrine and yet a note As when Paule sayth that Christ sent him not to baptise but to preache the Gospel 1. Cor. 1. And God by his Prophet I will haue mercy and not sacrifice Ose. 6. and Mat. 9. The fifte is ab eo quod est non causam vt causam ponere vvhen that is taken for Arg. à non causa pre causa the cause of any thing vvhich is not the cause As when they condemne the booke of Common prayer a prescript forme of seruice bicause as they say it maynteineth an vnlearned or as they terme it a reading ministerie when as
is especiall occasion to moue men to prayer to vnitie and to the embracing of the substance of Religion which by all meanes is sought to be ouerthrowne Where preache you them euen where they doe least good and most harme in places where the Gospell hath bene alreadie planted yea and often times in secrete conuenticles and corners which the truth neuer séeketh but vpon extreme necessitie and before whom preache you not before such as haue authoritie to redresse but before the common people who although some of them be godly and sober yet for the most parte be greatly delighted with nouelties loue such scholemaisters as teach libertie and continually inueigh against superiors All this beyng true as you can not denie it to be true there is no cause why you shoulde be offended with the setting downe of the first article To preach the Gospell is a thing necessary vnto saluation to preach that circumcision and suche like ceremonies be not matters of saluation is a necessarie doctrine of the substance of Religiō Zuinglius and Oecolampadius and other differed frō Luther in some matters of substance and yet did they orderly and lawfully with the consent of their Magistrates procéed in these matters wherfore these examples helpe you nothing for the matters you contend for be not of y e same nature neither do you procéede in like maner The same answere may be made to all other like examples that you can vse in these matters But bicause I will not leane onely to mine owne iudgement in this case let it not gréeue you if I set downe M. Zuinglius opinion touching the same who in his booke called Ecclesiastes speaking against the Anabaptistes saith on this sort If they were sent of God endued with the spirit of God they woulde haue Zuingl in ecclesi construed in the best parte these externall things which be not as yet rightly reformed they woulde haue become all things to all men that they might haue wonne all to Christ. c. M. Caluine also in his booke against y e Anabaptists saith that whē vnder the colour of a Caluin aduersus Anabap. zeale of perfectiō we cā beare no imperfectiō either in the body or in the members of the Church it is the deuill which puffeth vs vp with pride and seduceth vs with hypocrisie to make vs forsake Christs flocke Whatsoeuer you alleage for the saluing of your contentious doctrine out of y e. 10. of T. C. vseth the same defense for his contentiō that the Anabaptists do Mathew verse 34. y e same do y e Anabaptists vse for their excuse also as Zuinglius testifieth in his Ecclesiastes his words be these Their doctrine bringeth forth nothing but contention tumults in the defense wherof they alleage that Christ said I came not to sende peace but the sword to whō we answere that this sword hath no place among the faithful Zuing. in ec for it diuideth the faithfull frō infidels but they make contentiō and brawling among the The sworde which Christ sendeth is not betwene the faithfull faithfull that for externall things Hetherto Zuinglius which is a sufficiēt answere to you also vsing y e same excuse mouing cōtentiōs in like maner matters The same sense haue the words of Christ. Luc. 12. ver 49. for the Gospel is a sword that deuideth the faithfull from infidels but not the faithfull among themselues It is the greatest offence to the simple and most worthy of Christian teares and weeping that men shoulde cloake and colour their arrogancie contention and errors with a false pretence of godly zeale for the purytie of fayth the sinceritie of the Gospell and the reformation Bucer in 4. Eph. of the Churche as Maister Bucer in 4. ad Ephe. saith that somedyd euen in his time What you thinke and teach of the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate will appeare hereafter more plainely in some other partes of your booke your additions to your protestation of allowing Magistrates and of your obedience to them may colour your abridging of their authoritie For if they commaunde you any thing wherein you intende not to obey you may say they commaunded not that in the Lorde and that it is against your conscience These exceptiōs or excuses be very general may with you who in all things pretende the worde of God and conscience strayghten the authoritie of the Magistrate to your owne purpose But hereof we shall something more playnely although not fully vnderstande your opinion hereafter The same Protestation that you make it may appeare that the Anabaptistes made also in the beginning as Zuinglius declareth in his Ecclesiastes I. VV. The seconde Article pag. 2. Sect. 2. Secondly they bitterly inueyed agaynst ministers and preachers of the Gospell saying that they were not ordinarily and lawfully Bul. fol. 1. 〈◊〉 18. 87. 102. 244. called to the ministerie bicause they were called by the Magistrate and not by the people that they preached not the Gospel truly that they were Scribes and Pharisies that they had not those thinges which Paule required in a minister 1. Tim. 3. That they did not themselues those things which they taughte vnto other that they had stipends and laboured not and therefore were ministers of the belly that they could not teache truly bicause they had great liuings and liued wealthily and pleasantly that they vsed not their authoritie in excommunication that they attributed to muche vnto the Magistrate T. C. pag. 3. 4. There was neuer Heretike so abhominable but that he had some truthe to cloke his falshode should his vntruthes and blasphemies driue vs from the possession of that whiche he holdeth truely no not the Diuell him selfe saying that God had giuen his Angels charge ouer his can thereby wring this sentence from vs why we should not bothe beleeue it and speake it beeing a necessarie truthe to beleeue and speake You may as well say we are Anabaptistes bycause we say there is but one God as they dyd one Christ as they dyd c. And heere I will giue the Reader a taste of your Logike that you make so muche of in your booke * This is your owne Logike these be arguments of your owne framing The Anabaptistes say that the Churches should choose their ministers and not the Magistrate and you say so therfore you are Anabaptistes or in the way to Anabaptisme The Anabaptistes complayned that the Christians vsed not their authoritie in excommunication and so do you complayne therefore you are Anabaptistes or in the way to them I will not lay to your charge that you haue not learned Aristotles Priorums which sayth it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as often as the meane in any syllogisme is consequent to bothe the extremes But haue you not learned that which Seton or any other halfepeny Logyke telleth you that you can not conclude affirmatiuely in the seconde figure And of thys sorte are
the beginning wearie of turning vp this (6) Note his mo est manerly speaches dung and refuting so baine and friuolous sclanders with out all shewe and face of truthe and therfore I will be briefe in the rest Io. Whitgifte I speake not here of the doctrine of the Anabaptists which is the certaine note wherby they may be knowne but of their other qualities and manner of talke and Preaching The wordes be M. Bullingers they be not mine The argumentes framed be yours and neither his nor mine Your disciples magnifie you bicause your vsuall talke both publike and priuate is They seke not the reformatiō but the diffamation of ministers against the Ministers of the Church against their calling against their preaching against their life c. which you doe not to reforme them for you doe it in their absence and to the people but to deface them and to discredite them not to promote the Gospell which they preache as diligently and syncerely as you doe but to bring them into hatred with the people whereby you might the rather preuaile in your enterprises not to reforme their manners for they maye compare wyth you in all kynde of honestie and dutie but to erpresse your malice and wrathe for that whiche Zuinglius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Anabap. in Elench contra Anabap. speaketh of them It is melancholie and wrathe not true zeale of whiche they glorie maye be truly verified of you and thereof let thys your booke be iudge Nowe if I say that in this poynte you agrée with the Anabaptistes I doe not therefore straighteway conclude that you are Anabaptistes but thys I conclude that you are not for suche inuemues to bée estéemed as more pure in deede than your brethren nor they thorough suche slaunde os speaches of yours to bée discredited bycause herein you speake or practise nothyng agaynste the true Ministers of the woorde of God but that whyche the Anabaptistes haue doone in the selfe same forme and manner before you And that these be qualities woorthie to bée obserued in the Anabaptistes and suche as procéede in lyke manner it may appeare not onely by this obseruation of M. Buliinger but of other learned and Godlie menne also that haue written agaynste them and giuen notes of their qualities Zuinglius in his Booke before named sayth That they speake euyll bothe Ibidem Why the 〈◊〉 speake euill of magistrate and 〈◊〉 Idem in les of the Ciuill Magistrate and of the ministers of the Churche that if at anye tyme eyther of them accordyng to theyr office reproue them then they streyghtwaye saye that therefore they bee enimyes vnto them bycause they tell them of theyr faultes And in his Ecclesiast he sayeth thus of them They so slaunder reuyle and backebyte the Ministers of the woorde and of the Churche that they oughte to be suspected and hated of all Godlye menne euen for theyr slaunderous and curssed speakyng But theyr ende and purpose is by thys meanes to wynne credite vnto them selues and to discredite suche as sette them selues agaynste them and detecte theyr erroures The lyke saying he hathe in hys booke De. Baptismo To the same effecte also speaketh Gastius of them in his Booke De exordio erroribus Catabap Gastiu where among other sentences he hath thys Theyr talke vttereth nothyng else but reprehension of the Ministers of the worde and libertie in externall things Now iudge I praye you whether this hath ben a qualitie woorthie to bée obserued in the Anabaptistes or no I doe not speake agaynste suche as modestly and accordyng to the rule of the Apostle 1. Tunoth 5. doo reproue any but agaynste those that haue nothing else in theyr mouthes but inuectiues agaynste the Ministers of the woorde obseruyng neyther place tyme nor anye other circumstances whome I still say in this poynt to be fitly compared to the Anabaptists Nowe whether it bée my Logike or yours that you gyue a taste of in thys placelette the learned Reader iudge to whome also I committe the tryall of thys spyrite of yours whyche bursteth out in suche vnséemely manner vpon the consyderation of your owne deuysed argumentes to féede your contempte and disdayne with In déede if you make argumentes where I make none and if you frame them as it pleaseth you no meruayle it is though you make a long booke and cause your Reader to beleeue that my Logicke is as simple as you woulde haue it But deale with mée vprightly and honestly and then set downe my vnskilfulnesse and spare not as I trust you woulde doo to the vttermost in euery poynt if you could séeing that you doe it where there is no occasion at all offered vnto you by mée but imagined of youre selfe Well let these quarelles goe more méete to be among boyes than among men Gratia Dei sum quod sum neyther haue I any thing but that whiche I haue receyued of him from whom commeth all good things Bothe of the election of ministers and of excommunication what I thynke I will declare God willing in their proper places The woordes here by me alledged as I haue saide are Master Bullingers and they be truly spoken and to good purpose as there it shall appeare In the meane while I referre you for that of the Magistrate in electing of ministers to the 87. and 88. leaues of that his Booke Aduersus Anabap. and for that of excommunication to the. 233. and. 234. leafe of the same Booke You denye that you saye there is no lawfull or no ordinarye callyng of Mynisters in Englande whych is a strange hearyng to mée for wherevnto then tendeth all that whych is wrytten in your Booke touching the electing and calling of Ministers or F st Admonition contrarie to T. C. that which is written in the fyrst Admonition Folio 9 ▪ where they say in playne termes that wee haue neyther a ryghte Ministerie of God nor a righte gouernement of hys Churche And Folio 34. 35. 36. c Folio 157. where they saye that thys prescripte forme of Seruice vsed in this Churche of Englande mayntayneth an vnlawfull ▪ Ministerie or that whyche is so bytterly spoken agaynst the Booke of orderyng ▪ Ministers and Deacons whyche they call the Pontificall But you saye that he may be lawfully called whyche is not ordinarilye I woulde haue you to speake playnely Is our calling to the Ministerie here in England lawful but not ordinarie If it be lawfull then is it not agaynste the woorde of God neyther is there any Lawe in the Scriptures to the contrarie as you woulde make vs to beléeue But truly I thynke that you were not here well aduysed or else haue you some suttle meaning for you adde immediately that there be places in Englande where the Ministers are called by theyr Parishes c. So that I suppose you meane that in some Parishes of Englande there is a lawfull callyng of Ministers if it bée so then is it not withstanding truly sayde that you
denie the maner of callyng Ministers in this Churche of Englande to be lawfull for that maner of callyng is not to be ascribed to this Churche which is vsed in some conuenticles and secrete congregations but that which is allowed by publike and common authoritie Your distinction of lawfull and ordinarie is not simply good for whatsoeuer is lawfull Lauful is ordinarie in a Church established in a Church established that is ordinarie I think that euen very cōmon reason dothe teache this to be true Wherfore certaynly if our ministerie bée lawfull it is ordinarie If any Parishe in Englande doe electe or call their ministers otherwyse than the orders and Lawes of thys Churche dothe permitte I can not sée howe that Parishe can excuse it selfe of schisme and I thinke verilye that suche Parishes ought to bée looked too in tyme. I doe not well vnderstande ▪ what you meane by these wordes in suche sorte as the examples of the Scripture doe shewe to haue bene doone before the Eldership and gouernmente of the Churche bee established What examples bée these you quote no places where to fynde them ▪ Or when was the gouernmente of the Churche and Eldershyp established If you had more playnly expressed these two thyngs wée myghte haue the better vnderstoode youre meanyng But belyke these Parishes doo not call theyr Ministers in all poyntes accordyng to the rule that you woulde haue prescribed and therfore you make an Interim of it vntill your gouernment be fully finished This is your dealyng to allowe of all things doone out of order yea though it bée against your owne order so that it tende to the derogation of publike and common order Whether they saye that the Gospell is not truely preached in this Churche of Englande The Admomtors denye the Gospell to be truly preached in Englande or no looke in the whole discourse of their booke and in the seconde Admonition page 6. where you may fynde these wordes I saye that we are so scarce come to the outwarde face of a Churche ryghtely reformed that althoughe some truthe be taught by some preachers yet no preacher maye without greate daunger of the Lawes vtter all truth comprised in the booke of God it is so circumscribed and wrapte within the compasse of suche statutes suche penalties suche imunctions suche Aduertisementes suche Articles suche sober Caueats Seconde Admonition pag. 6. and suche manyfolde pamphlets that in manner it dothe but peepe out from behynd the screene What say you to these wordes how can you salue them Whether they generally call all the Ministers of the Gospell which be not on their secte Phariseys or no lette the whole discourse of bothe the Admonitions iudge and that Pamphlet entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherlye with theyr brethren In my answer to which pāphlet I proue that this name Pharisey doth much more aptely agrée vnto the Authors thereof and suche lyke than to the Bishops and other ministers whome they so often call by that name and so odiously compare them together in that pamphlet I must once tell you agayne that I make no argumentes here I doe but onely compare their qualities and conditions I haue performed my promise if I 〈◊〉 not shewe me wherin I peruert not the meaning of the Anabaptistes ▪ but set down the verie woordes of M. Bullinger worde for worde without any addition tion or alteration it had bene well if you had examined the places better Touchyng the falsification and vntruthe you charge mée with I thynke you be not in good earnest it is but bycause you could no longer temper your heate for you make manie of these outcryes but I suppose you vse them only as meanes to caste vp your melancholie whyche you call zeale Whatsoeuer I there speake of the Anabaptistes I fyndeit in the same forme of woordes in those leaues of M Bullingers booke whiche I haue quoted in the Margent Pervse with a little more diligence Fol. 18. where he hath these wordes Quod stipendia babeant non laborent atque ideo ventris ministri sunt and the. 102. And if you fynd not there word for worde all this that I haue here spoken touchyng the stipendes and liuings of ministers and in the same forme of wordes then vse your hotte Rhetorike but I knowe they 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idem 〈◊〉 be there and you reproue you can not tell what If this so greately trouble you I wil tell you what Zuinglius also sayth of this matter in his Ecclesi istes where he speaking of Anabaptists sayth thus They teach that suche can not preache the Gospell syncerely whiche haue benefices but their hope is to haue the true Pastors expelled that they may succeede in their places and yet they publikely protest that they seeke for no liuing Nowe whether you or your men agrée with them in this poynt or no I neyther Zuingl in Eccles. denie nor affirme if you be prickte I can not blame you thoughe you kicke Neither do I say that those ought to haue stipends which labour not I do but report Bullingers wordes of the Anabaptistes I woulde haue no man exempted from due reprehension I only reporte this to shewe the malitious spirites of the Anabaptistes agaynst the ministers of the woorde that it maye be knowne of what societie they may bée suspected to bée whose talke is wholly bente against the Ministers of the woorde of God That you giue too little to Magistrates it shall be shewed in place Though you bée wearie it is no meruayle for it gréeueth you to bée touched so narrowly And surely if you vse no cleanlyer termes than you doe in this place or continue in pouring oute your choler in suche aboundance you will tyre mée also or euer I make an ende Whatsoeuer I haue here spoken of the Anabaptistes is moste true and therefore no slaunder Io. Whitgifte The. 3. Article Pag. 2. Sect. 3. Thirdly the whole reformation that was then in the Churche displeased them as not spirituall inough and perfect For the Sacramentes Bull. fo 9. 18 ▪ were not as they sayd syncerely ministred things were not reduced to the Apostolike Churche excommunication not rightly vsed no amendement of lyfe appeared since the preaching of the Gospel therfore the Church then reformed no more the true Churche of Christ than was the Papisticall Churche T. C. Pag. 4. Sect. 1. Wee prayse God for thys reformation so farre foorthe as it is agreeable vnto the worde of God wee are gladde the woorde of God is preached that the Sacramentes are ministredthat whiche is wantyng we desire it maye be added that whiche is ouermuche cut off and wee are not ashamed to professe y t we desire it may be done according to the institution of the Churches Io. Whitgifte The. 6. Article Pag 3. Sect. 3. Sixthly they pretended in all their doings the glorie of God Bullin fo 10. the edifying of the Churche and the puritie of the Gospell T.
authoritie to take héede of them Let men apply them as they sée cause and haue experience there can be no hurte in that it shall make them the more circumspect and arme them agaynst the hypocriste of diuers Howe the authors of both the Admonitions do agree with the Anabaptistes in these forenamed practises I haue declared in my answere to your Reply You falsifie my wordes when you affyrme that I say they agree wyth the Anabaptists in all the forenamed practises and qualities for I haue not this vniuersall signe all if they agrée with them in many they are to be suspected I thinke the Anabaptistes themselues as they haue diuers and seuerall opinions in doctrine so had they also sundrie qualities concerning lyfe and conuersation and yet some there are which be common to them all I know that all the estates and orders of this Realitie hate Anabaptisme I require not your promyse for that matter which you offer vnto me Satis pro imperio I know their detestation of that heresie and therefore I am holde to open these practises qualities vnto them least they may by some mens hypocrisie and close dealing be deceiued My words and writings be publike my speaches plaine and therefore if I sting it is openly inoughe The priuie hissers and stingers he those that secretelye smyte theyr neighbour and hisse at them in their absence at tables and in corners and sting them behinde their backes whē they are not present to answere for themselues Such adders and Scorpions swarme among you Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 5. Sect. 6. Moreouer it may please you to consider the conditions practises of the Donatists who deuided them selues frō the congregation Donatistes and had their peculiar Churches or rather conuenticles in Africa They taughte also that all other Churches were spotted and impure bycause of their Ministers Finally that there ought to be no compulsion vsed in matters of Religion and fayth and that none should be punished for their conscience T. C. Page 7. Sect. 4. Nowe you carie vs from the Anabaptistes in Europe to the Donatistes in Affricke and you will paynte vs wyth their colours but you want the oyle of truth or 〈◊〉 of truth to cause your colours to cleaue and to endure The Lorde be praysed that your breath although it be 〈◊〉 anke yet it is not so strong y t it is able eyther to turne vs or chaunge vs into what formes it pleaseth you I shall desire the reader to loke Theodoret lib. 4. de fabulis Haereticorum Augustin ad quod-uult-Deum and in his firste and second bookes agaynst 〈◊〉 Letters where he shall fynde of these heretikes that by comparing them wyth these to whome M. Doctor lyk eth them the smoke of this accusation mighte the better appeare For these sclaunders are not worthe th answering To this diuision from the Churches and to your supposed conuenticles I haue answered They taught that there were no true Churches but in Affrica we teache nothing lesse than that there is no true Churche but in Englande If the Churches be considered in the partes whether Minister or people there is none pure and vnspotted and this is the faythe of the true Churche and not of the Donatistes if it be considered in the whole and generall gouernment and outwarde pollicie of it it may be pure and vnspotted for any thing I knowe if men would laboure to purge it The Donatists vaunted themselues to be exempted from sinn and what lykelyhoode is there betwene any assertion of the authors of the Admonition and this fansie of the Donatistes To the last poynt of no compulsion to be vsed in matters of Religion denying it to be true I referre the further answere to an other place Io. Whitgifte This that I haue set downe of the Donatistes is all true neyther can you disproue one word of it I write so much of their practises as he correspondent to the doings The admonitors compared with the Donatistes of the Authors of the Admonition The Donatistes deuided th mselues from the co gregation and had peculiar Churches or rather conuenticles in Affrica These also deuide themselues from the Churche And although they tye not the Churche of Christ to any one corner yet haue they their seuerall Churches and secrete meetings The 〈◊〉 made thys their excuse why they departed from other Churches bycause they were not pure and vnspotted and their ministers of euill life These men for the lyke causes separat themselues from the Churche also The Donatistes woulde haue no 〈◊〉 vsed in 〈◊〉 of Religion and fayth These men in effecte be lykewise mynded for they woulde haue no 〈◊〉 punishement vsed which may appeare y that which is written in the second 〈◊〉 fol. 57. where they saye that it 〈◊〉 not to make any lawes 〈◊〉 m ere 〈◊〉 bycause the gouernment of the Second Admoni fol. 57. Churche is 〈◊〉 per 〈◊〉 the worde and fol. 56. and in 〈◊〉 plates else they speake to the lyke purpose whereof occasion will be g uen hereafter better to consider Augustine in his 〈◊〉 de haeresibus ad quod-vult 〈◊〉 heweth that some of the Donatistes Aug. de baeresib ad quod-vult were also Arians but not all 〈◊〉 some of them were Circumcellions of which secte 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the place by you cyted But what is all 〈◊〉 to ▪ Lib. 4 de fab Haeret. the 〈◊〉 speake ot of their opinions nor of all theyr conditions but of such onely wherein these that separate them selues in oure dayes séeme to agrée wyth them Similia as you knowe agrée not in all poyntes it is sufficient if they doe in those things in quibus 〈◊〉 Neyther doe I anye otherwyse reporte of them than M. Caluine him selfe doth in his booke against the Anabaptistes and Augustine with others that write of them Surely neyther in the whole nor in parte can the Churche be vnspotted in this world no not in the outwarde pollicie and gouernment of it neyther doe I thinke that you are able to shewe any examples of suche Puritie we haue to the contrarie euen in the Apostolicall Churches in the Apostles tyme as the Churche of Corinth and of the Galatians Maister Caluine in hys booke aduersus Anabaptistas is directly against you and in déede I thinke that you are not able to shewe one learned writer of your opinion in this poynt Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 5. Sect. 7. To conclude these men flatly ioyne with the Papistes and by the selfe same assertions bende their force against this Churche of Englande T C. Pag. 7. Sect. vlt. Salomon sayth that the beginnyng of the ordes of an vnwise man is folyshnesse b t the Ecclef 10. ver 13. latter ende of them is mere madnesse euen so it 〈◊〉 oute by you for whilest you suffer your selfe to be caryed headlong of your affections you hurle you knowe not what nor at whome whatsoeuer commeth firste to
hande and speake things that the eyes and eares of all men fee and heare to be otherwyse 〈◊〉 yo 〈◊〉 them to the Anabaptistes and Donatistes 〈◊〉 friende of yours mighte thinke you sayde 〈◊〉 bycause suche alway s seekyng darke and solitarie places myghte happely haue some fauourers whych are not knowne But when you ioyne them wyth the Papistes whych are commonly knowne to all men whose doctrine they imp gne as (*) And yet in defacing and depr uing this Church of England they fully ioyne wyth them and so oe not I. well as you whose markes and badges they can lesse awaye wyth than you whose companie they flie more than you whose punishment they haue called for more than you for your parte haue done and therefore are condemned of them as ruell when you oftentymes carie awaye the name of myldnesse and moderation whych forsothe knowe as you haue professed no commandement in the Scripture to put heretickes to death when I saye you ioyne them thus wyth the Papistes you doe not nely 〈◊〉 your credite in these vntrue furmises wherein I truste wyth the indifferent reader your neuer had any but you make all other things suspected which you 〈◊〉 so that you gyue 〈◊〉 occasion to take vp the common prouerbe agaynst you I wyll truste you no farther than I see you After you haue thus yoked them with the Papistes you go aboute to shewe wherein they drawe wyth them Wherein I fyrst aske of you if all they that affyrme or doe any thyng that the enimyes of the Churche doe are forthwith oyned and conspired with them against the Church what (a) I say that neither Christe nor Paule ioyned either with Gentil Phariseis or false Apostles against the church say you to S. Paule that ioyned wyth the * Pharise s Act. 23. v. 6 in the resurrection with the false Apostles in taking no * wages of the Corinthians our 2. Cor. II. v. 12. Sauiour Christ which spake agaynst the Jewes which were then the onely people of God as the Gentils dyd which were their enimyes will you saye therefore that eyther Sainte Paule Cor. 9. ioyned wyth the Phariseys or false Apostles agaynst the Churche or that our Sauiour Christ ioyned agaynst the Jewes wyth the Gentils but let vs see your slaunders particularly Io. Whitgifte The same Salomon sayth that in the mouthe of the foolyshe is the roote of pride Pro. 14. c. Euen so it falleth oute with you for whylest with suche proude wordes you séeke to dryue at me you doe but condemne your selfe of follye Pylate and Herode Men of contrarie iudgements ioyne togither against the truthe were at enimitie betwi te them selues and yet they wyned together againste Christ The Phariseis and Saduces were of contrarie opinions yet were they both enimyes to the doctrine of Christ. The Turke and the Pope be of contrarie Religions yet doe they both conspire agaynst the Gospell Papistes and Anabaptistes agrée not eyther in opinion or in societie yet doe they both séeke to deface the Church of Christe Euen so they thoughe they impugne the doctrine of the Papists neuer so ly cast away their markes and badges neuer so farre from them though they cannot abyde theyr companie yet doe they wyth them by the same assertions thoughe not by the same argumentes assaulte this Churche of Englande and bende their force against it Dyd not the seditious Iewes within Ierusalem ioyne wyth the Romains beyng their enimyes inprocuring the destruction of that Citie you are not so ignoraunt as you woulde séeme to be I am sure you vnderstande my meaning Howe or where you haue called for the punishement of the Papistes more than I haue 〈◊〉 and therefore you counted cruell and I made and moderate certaynely I knowe not I heare onely your selfe saye so What I haue done and where I minde not to bragge of at this time I leaue that for you What I haue professed concernyng the putting to deathe of Herotickes the same doe I professe still and am ready thereof to gyue an accompte at all tymes as I shal be required although neyther you nor any man else haue heard me teach that doctrine or professe it but thys is one of your glances by the waye when occasion is gyuen me to speake of that matter I wyll plainely vtter my conscience by the grace of God In the meane tyme it is no cause why I shoulde be better thoughte of among the Papistes for bothe theyr practise and theyr doctrine is eleane contrarie To your question I answere that if they doe that against the Church which the enimyes doe against the same then doe they in that conspire wyth them against the Churche and therefore all your example 〈◊〉 vsed are to no purpose at all For Saynt Paule ioyned wyth the Phariseys and wyth the false Propheteo in those thyngs which were allowed of the Churche and for the commoditie of the Church and therefore in no respecte agaynst the Churche the same answere I make to the example of Christe iustly reprouing the Iewes if you woulde haue vsed apte examples for your purpose then shoulde you haue broughte in suche as beyng of contrarie iudgementes haue notwythsta dyng soughte to ouerthrowe one and the selfe same thing althoughe by diuers meanes But then shoulde you haue concluded agaynst your selfe as you must of necessitie dee So that here where you would séeme to say much you haue saide nothing at all Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. pag. 5. Sect. vlt. First the Papistes affirme that we are not the true Churche no that we haue not so much as the outward face and she we of the true Church and so doe these men almost in flat and playne termes T. C. pag. 8. Sect. 1. They doe not denie but there is a visible Church of God in England and therefore your sayings of them that they doe almost in plaine and flat termes say that we haue not so muche as any outwarde face and shewe of the true Church argueth that you haue almost no loue in you whieh vpon one word once vttered contrarie to the tenour of their booke and course of their whole life surmise this of them and how truely you conclude of that word scarce it shall appeare when we come to that place Io. Whitgifte They doe in playne and flat termes write as muche as I doe reporte of them in this article for a manyfest proofe thereof referre the reader to the. 6. page of the seconde Admonition and the. 53. of the first Admonition and to the whole discourse of both My almost is equiualent to they ▪ searse But whosoeuer shall well considèr the tenour of theyr bookes and the course of their lyfe may easily vnderstande that both I myghte haue leftē oute my almost and they theyr scarse lykewise Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 6. Sect. 1. Secondly the Papistes say that we haue no ministerie no Byshops no pastours bicause they
substance euen the principall poyntes where in we differ from them Wherefore this comparison of yours standeth vpon a false grounde For I am fully persuaded that you and they doo the Pope great good seruice and that he woulde not misse you for any thing For what is his desire but to haue this Churche of Englande whiche he hathe accursed vtterly defaced and discredited to haue it by any meanes ouerthrowne if not by forreyne enimies yet by domesticall dissention And what fitter and apter instrumentes coulde he haue had for that purpose than you who vnder pretence of zeale ouerthrowe that whiche other men haue buylded vnder colour of puritie seeke to bring in deformitie and vnder the cloke of equalitie and humilitie would vsurpe as great tyrannie and lofty Equalitie made a cloke for ambition Lordlykenesse ouer your parishes as euer the Pope did ouer the whole Churche For who should be the chiefe man of the segniorie but the Pastor what state and degrée of men soeuer else were in that parishe yea the Prince hir selfe looke their Admonitions and especially the seconde and this booke also and tell me whether it be so or no Wherefore these glorious wordes of yours be but mistes to blinde the eyes of the simple in lyke manner and to the like purpose vsed of the Anabaptistes agaynst Zuinglius Oecolampadius Bucer and suche like sincere professors of the word In the second edition of the answere to the Admonition of God Peruse the notes that I haue collected not onely out of Bullinger but out of Zuinglius and Gastius also and you shall sée them in all poyntes to vse these plausible pretences and to accuse their aduersaries after the like maner Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 6. Sect. vlt. Heereby it is manyfest that the Papistes and they ioyntly doe seeke to shake nay to ouerthrow the selfe same foundations groundes and pillers of our Churche althoughe not by the selfe same instrumentes and engines Wherefore it is tyme to awake oute of sleepe and to drawe oute the sworde of discipline to prouide that lawes whiche be generall and made for vniformitie aswell of doctrine as ceremonies be generally vniuersally obserued that those which according to their consciences and duty execute them be mainteined and not discouraged Either boldly defend the Religion kind of gouernment in this Realme established or else if you can reforme and better the same for it can not be but that this freedome giuen to men to obey and disobey what they list to speake what they list against whom they list and where they list to breche what opinions doctrine they list must in the ende burst out into some strange dangerous effect The Lord both graunt vnto you that be Magistrats the spirit of gouernment and to all other that be subiects the spirite of true obedience Amen T. C. Pag. 9 Sect. 1. After you haue all to be blacked and grimed with the inke of Anabaptisme Donatisme and Note the mildenesse of the â—an in this section A charitable surmise Papisme those whome you founde cleare from the least spot or specke of any of them You whette the sworde and blow the fire and you will haue the godly Magistrate minister of your choler and therefore in stead of feare of leesing the multitude of your liuings forgoing your pompe and pryde of men and delicacie of fare vnlawfull iurisdiction which you haue and heereafter looke for conscience religion and establishment of the common wealthe muste be pretended What haue you forgotten that which you sayde in the beginning that you accused none but suspected certayne would you haue the sworde to be drawne vpon your suspicions But now you see that they whom you haue accused are nothing like either Anabaptistes Donatistes or Papistes and your selfe moste vnlike to him that you professe to be and that you see that all your sclaunders are quenched by the innocencie as it were by water of those men whome you so haynousely accuse you are to be put in minde of the lawe of God which decreeth that he which accuseth an other if he proue it not shall suffer the punishment which he should haue done agaynst whome the accusation had bin Other similitudes might haue beseemed you better iustly proued The Romanes did nourishe in Capitolio cerâ—yne dogges and geese which by their barking and gagling should giue warning in the nighte of theeues that entred in but if they cried in the day time when there was no suspicion and when men came in to worship then their legges were broken bicause they cried when there was no cause If therefore he haue accused iustly then is he worthy to haue his diet allowed him of the common charges But if otherwise we desire not that his legges may be broken as theirs were but this we humbly craue that if this our answere do not sufficiently purge vs that we may be sifted and searched nearer that if we nourishe any suche monstrous opinions as are surmised we may haue the rewarde of them if we doe not then at the least we may haue the good abearing agaynst suche sclaunderous tongues seeing that God hathe not onely committed vnto the Magistrate the safetie of our goodes and life but also the preseruation of our honest reporte Io. Whitgifte Conuicta impietas dum non habet quod respondeat conuertit se ad conuitia Vngodlynesse being conuicted when she is destitute of a good answere turneth hir selfe to reprochefull wordes but your heate of wordes and forgetfulnesse of dutie and reuerence I passe ouer with silence The multitude of liuings which I haue I do enioye by law and may retayne I thanke God with a farre better conscience than T. C. did one liuing for the space of certayne yeres and would haue done still with all his heart if he mighte haue bin winked at thoughe it were expresly agaynst his othe My pompe is very small my pride of men is but according to my calling it were more for my profite if I had fewer My delicate fare is very simple I haue witnesses inowe of it peraduenture if you were kept to that diet it would not be with you as it is If my iurisdiction be vnlawfull I am content it be reformed it is according to the statutes of the Colledge where I am to the which T. C. hathe bin sworne and to the lawes of the Realme What I heereafter looke for it is harde for you to iudge But I most humbly thanke my heauenly father that in all this storming of yours wherein you haue blowne out agaynst me what you could possibly imagine you haue only vttered your boyling stomacke and not touched me in any thing whereof I néede to be ashamed which surely you would haue done if you could I whet the sworde no otherwise agaynst you than christian charitie and the state of The sword of discipline necessarily called for the Church requireth It is neither the sworde that
these opprobrious termes Proude generation tyrannous Lordships vngracious cruell Popelike wicked raygne proude enimies c. applied to brethren proceede not from the humble and mylde spirite of God but from the proude and arrogante spirite of Sathan Therefore by this vnseemely Preface it may appeare from what spirite the rest of this Admonition springeth Touching the crueltie and rigour Pretended persecution these men complayne of I shall neede to speake little beeing manyfest to all that be not with sinister affection blynded that lacke of seueritie is the principall cause of their licentious libertie But who seeth not their hypocrisie whiche woulde make the worlde beleeue that they are persecuted when they be wyth too muche lenitie punished for their vntollerable contempte of good lawes and other disordered dealings Nay suche is their peruersnesse or rather arrogancie that if they be debarred but from the least parte of their wyll and desire by and by they crie oute of crueltie and persecution it is to bee doubted what these men wyll doe when persecution commeth in deede whiche nowe make so muche of a little or rather of nothing As for this great bragge Stout brags For howe soeuer learned and many they seeme to be they shoulde and maye in this Realme finde owe to matche them and shame them too if they holde on as they haue begonne Satis arroganter dictum est and verifieth that to bee true that is commonly spoken of these kinde of men that is that they contemne all other in comparison of them selues that they thinke them selues onely zealous onely learned c. But it is possible that they maye be matched and I knowe no man of learning afrayde to encounter wyth them either by worde or wryting Touching the ministerie and gouernmente of the Churche what faultes there is to be therein founde we shall vnderstande when we come to their reasons God graunt vs humble and meeke spirites that godly vnitie may be maynteined in the Churche One thing I muste desire thee to note gentle Reader wherein the folly of these men maruellously appeareth howe they haue paynted the margent of their booke with quoting of Scriptures as though al were scripture they write when as in deed they abuse the scripture and thee For what one place of scripture is in all thys Preface alleaged to any purpose and yet how many is there quoted To proue that we must reade these two treatises without partialitie or blinde affection heere is noted in the margent 1. Thes. 5. Scriptures abused in the Admonition verse 21. Iam. 1. Iam. 2. The place to the Thessaloniās is this Trie all thinges and keepe that vvhiche is good The place of of the firste of Iames is this VVherfore my deare brethren let euery man be svvifte to heare slovve to speake and slovve to vvrathe And the seconde place of Iames is this My brethren haue not the faythe of our Lorde Iesus Christe in respecte of persons And to what purpose are these places alleaged what proue they or what neede is there to alleage them These Apostles in these places speake not of rayling Libels but of Scriptures wrested hearing the worde of God and iudging of matters of faythe according to the truthe and not to the persons To proue that tyrannous lordship can not stande with Christes kingdome they alleage the. 15 of Matth. and Luke 16. The place in the. 15. of Math. verse 23. is this But he ansvvered hir not a vvorde then came to him his Disciples and besought hym saying sende hir avvay for she cryeth after vs. In the sixeteenth of Luke it is thus Then he sayde vnto them ye are they vvhiche iustifie your selues before men but God knovveth your heartes for that vvhiche is highly esteemed among men is abhomination in the sighte of God I would gladly knowe howe their assertion and these two textes hang togither I allowe not tyrannous lordeship to stande with Chrystes kingdome But it may well inoughe for any thing in these two places to the contrarie Tyrannous lordship is not esteemed among men but hated ¶ The Replie vnto the answere of the Preface T. C. Pag. 9. Sect. 2. IT maye be sayde vnto you that whiche Aristotle sayde of a certayne Philosopher that he knew not his owne voyce For if that you had remēbred that which you do so often promise that you will not answere wordes but matter the Printer shoulde not haue gayned so muche men should not haue bestowed so muche money of a thing not of so greate value nor that whiche is more the worlde shoulde not bee burdened with vnprofitable writinges For howe often runninges out haue you to drawe the authors of the Admonition into hatred by inueyghing bitterly agaynst their vnlearnednesse maliciousnesse c. as it pleaseth you to terme it so that if there were any excesse of speeche in them you haue payde it agayne with measure pressed downe and running ouer Howe often charge you them with pride and arrogancie men that confesse once or twice of them selues their wante of skill and whiche professe nothing of them selues but onely a bare and naked knowledge of the truthe whiche maye be done with modestie euen of them which haue no learning And yet those that know them know that they are neither voyde of the knowledge of the tongues nor of the liberall Artes albeit they doe not make so many wordes of Pro. 11. v. 9 it as you Salomon saythe that he that is despised and hathe but one seruaunte is better than he whiche magnifieth and setteth out him selfe and yet wanteth bread whereby he meaneth that the man that hathe but a little and carieth his countenance accordingly is muche more to be esteeined than he whiche beareth a greate porte and hathe not to supporte it These brethren haue not vndertaken the knowledge of Logike Philosophie and other schoole learning whereof notwithstanding they are not destitute you in so often reproching them with the ignorance of them woulde make vs beleeue that you are so notable a Logician and Philosopher as if Logike and Philosophie had beene borne with you and shoulde dye with you when as it may appeare partely by that whiche hathe beene spoken and partely by those thinges that will fall out heereafter that you are better acquaynted with the names of Logike and Philosophie than with any sounde or substantiall knowledge of them But let that be the Uniuersities iudgement where you haue beene brought vp and are best knowne To returne to your vnprofitable excursions howe often times in your booke doe you pull at the Magistrates sworde and what sworde you woulde haue I leaue to the consideration of all men seeing you are not satisfied with their imprisonment wherevpon also dothe eusue the expense of that whiche they haue What matter is in all these that bringeth any helpe to the decision of these causes that are in question betweene vs howe many leaues haue you wasted in confuting of the quotations whiche
you doe notably sclaunder them and it is already answered If you meane that those are Puritanes or Catharanes whiche doe set foorthe a true and perfecte paterne or platforme of reforming the Churche then the marke of this heresie reacheth vnto those whiche made the booke of common prayer (b) An vntruthe for I do not saye so in any place whiche you saye is a perfecte and absolute rule to gouerne this Churche wherein nothing is wanting or too little nor nothing running ouer nor too muche As for the Catharanes whiche were the same that are otherwise called Nouatians I knowe no suche opinion they had and they whome you charge are as farre from their corruption as you bee Io. Whitgifte You haue sayde vnto me in one place of your booke Quid verba audiam cumfacta videam euen so I saye to you for why will they not come to oure Sermens or to oure Churches why will they not communicate with vs in oure Sacramentes not salute vs in the stréetes nay spitte in our faces and openly reuile vs whye haue they their secrete conuenticles You knowe all this to be true in a number of them I knowe not why they shoulde doe so excepte they thinke them selues to be contaminated by hearing vs preache or by comming to our Churches or by communicating otherwyse with vs. Whiche if they doe it argueth that they persuade them selues not onely of suche an outwarde perfection but of suche an inwarde puritie also that they may as iustly for the same be called Puritanes as the Nouatians The qualities of Nouatus and cause of his heresie were You knowe that the first occasion why Nouatus did separate him selfe from the Churche was bicause he coulde not obtayne the Bishoprike of Rome whiche he ambitiously desired You knowe also that his pretence was bicause the Bishops dyd receyue those into the Churche whiche had fallen in the time of persecution Afterwardes he fell into greater and mo absurdities for commonly suche as once deuide them selues from the Churche fall from errour to errour without staye This Nouatus thoughe he séemed to condemne ambition in all other men yet was he most ambitious him selfe thoughe he by vehement othes denied him selfe to desire a Bishoprike yet did he most gréedily séeke for it though he boasted of more perfection in lyfe and of a more perfecte platforme of a Churche than he thoughte others had yet was it nothing so He was the firste that I reade of that forseeke his Nouatus the first that forsooke his ministerie ministerie and that sayde Se nolle amplius presbyterum esse sed alterius Philosophiae studiosum that he woulde no longer be a Minister but a student in other Philosophie Reade Eusebius in his sixte booke of his Ecclesiasticall historie Cap. 43 and Nicephorus in his sixte booke also and third chapter Surely the storie of Nouatus is worthy to be noted bycause there be so many at these dayes which do not so much differ from him in opinions as they agrée with him in conditions You affirme that I saye The booke of common prayer to be a perfecte and absolute rule to gouerne this Churche wherin nothing is wanting or too little nor nothing running ouer or too muche If I haue sayd any suche thing quote the place that the Reader may consider of it and knowe that you speake the truthe But if I neuer eyther spake or writte any suche thing then are you a false witnesse and I haue to desire the Reader to consider of the reste of your sclaunderous reportes according to the truthe of this I haue learned with Sainct Augustine to giue this reuerence onely to the wryters of Canonicali Scriptures that I thinke none of them to haue The canonicall scriptures are only absolute perfect erred in wryting And I doe firmely beléeue that onely the bookes of the Canonicall Scripture are of that absolutenesse and perfection that nothing maye be taken awaye from them nothing added to them I doe not thinke the Communion booke to be such but that it may admitte alteration I doe not beléeue it to bée so perfecte but that there maye be bothe added to it and taken from it But thys I saye that it is a godly booke withoute any errour in substance of doctrine and nothing in it that I knowe agaynst the worde of God and those imperfections or rather motes that you saye to be in it not to be suche that any godly man oughte to stirre vp any contention in the Churche for them muche lesse to make a schisme and least of all to deuide him selfe from the Churche This is my opinion of that booke whiche vnlesse by learning and good authoritie I iustifie let me haue the blame and shame of it I will not enter into your heartes to iudge what you thinke of your inwarde puritie whiche notwithstanding in comparison you haue in this present place arrogated vnto your selues that very perfection of an outwarde platforme of a Churche whiche you chalenge vnto your selues is one steppe to Nouatianisme and well deserueth the name of Catharisme ¶ Of the authoritie of the Churche in things indifferent Tract 2. Some thinges may be tollerated in the Churche touching order ceremonies discipline and kinde of gouernmente not expressed in the word of God Chap. 1. the first Diuision Admonition SEing that nothing in thys mortall lyfe is more diligently to bee soughte for and carefully to bee looked vnto a 2. Reg. 23. 3. Chro. 17. 2. Chro. 29. 30. 31. Psal. 132. 2. 3. 4. Mat. 21. 12. Ioh. 2. 15. than the restitution of true religion and reformation of Gods Churche it shall bee your partes dearely beloued in this present Parliamente assembled as muche as in you lyeth to promote the same and to employe your whole laboure and studie not onely in abandoning all Popishe remnauntes bothe in ceremonies and regimente but also in bringing in and placing in Gods Churche those thinges onely whiche the Lorde him selfe b Deut. 4. 2. Deut. 12. 32. in hys worde commandeth Bicause it is not mought to take paynes in taking away euill c Psal. 37. 27. Rom. 12. 9. but also to be occupied in placing good in the steade thereof Nowe bicause many men see not all thinges and the d 1. Cor. 2. 14 worlde in thys respecte is maruellously blinded it hathe beene thoughte good to profer to your godly consyderations a true platforme of a Churche reformed to the ende that it beeing layde before your eyes to beholde the greate vnlykenesse betweene it and thys our Englishe Churche you maye learne eyther with perfecte e Psal. 31. 6. Psal. 139. 22. hatred to deteste the one and with singular loue to embrace and carefull endeuour to plante the other or else to be without excuse before f Iohn 15. 21. the maiestie of our God who for the discharge of our conscience manifestation of his truthe hathe by vs reuealed vnto you at this presente
the sinceritie and simplicitie of his Gospel Not that you should either g 1. Tim. 3. 8. wilfully withstand or vngraciously tread h Math. 7. 6. the same vnder yourfeete for God doth not disclose his wil to any such ende but that you should yet nowe at the length with all your mayne and mighte endeuour that Christe whose i Mat. 11. 3 easie yoke and light burthen we haue of long tyme cast of from vs might rule and reigne in hys Churche by the scepter of his worde onely ¶ Answere to the Admonition Pag. 20. Sect. 1. 2. I Will not answere wordes but matter nor bare affirmations or negations but reasons and therefore in as fewe words as I can I will comprehende many lines But before I enter into their reasons I thinke it not amisse to examine that assertion which is the chiefe and The grounde of the Admonition principall grounde so farre as I can gather of their booke that is that those things only are to be placed in the church which the Lord himselfe in his worde commaundeth As though they shoulde saye nothing is to be tollerated in the Churche of Christ touching either doctrine order ceremonies discipline or gouernment except it be expressed in the word of God And therfore the most of their argumēts in this booke be taken ab authoritate negatiuè whiche by the rules of Logike proue nothing at all T. C. Pag. 13. Sect. 2. YOu giue occasion of suspicion that your ende will be scarse good whiche haue made so euill a beginning For wheras you had gathered out of the Admonition that nothing shuld be placed in the Churche but that God hath in his worde commaunded as though the words were not playne mough you will giue them some light by your exposition And what is that you answere that it is as muche as though they would say nothing is to be tollerated in the Church of Christ touching either doctrine order ceremonies discipline or gouernment excepte it be expressed in the word of God Is this to interprete is it all one to say (a) But their quarell is in tollerating not in placing nothing muste be placed in the Church and nothing muste bee tollerated in the Churche he hathe but small iudgemente that can not tell that certayne thinges maye be tollerated and borne with for a tyme. Which if they were to be set in and placed could not be done without the great faulte of them that should place them Agayne are these of like waighte excepte it be commaunded in the worde of God and excepte it be expressed in the worde of God Many thinges are bothe commaunded and forbidden of whiche there is no expresse mention in the worde whiche are as (b) A Papisticall assertion necessarily to bee followed or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made Therefore vnlesse your weightes be truer if I coulde let it you shoulde waighe none of my wordes Heerevpon you conclude that their argumentes taken ab authoritate negatiue proue nothing When the question is of the authoritie of a man in deede it neither holdeth (c) Vntrue affirmatiuely nor negatiuely For as it is no good argument to saye it is not true bicause Aristotle or Plato sayde it not so is it not to saye it is true bicause they sayde so The reason whereof is bicause the infirmitie of man can neither attayne to the perfection of any thing whereby he mighte speake all things that are to be spoken of it neither yet bee free from errour in those thinges whiche hee speaketh or giueth oute and therefore this argument neither affirmatiuely nor negatiuely compelleth the heare but onely induceth him to some lyking or mislyking of that for whiche it is broughte and is rather for an Oratour to persuade the simpler sorte than for a disputer to inforce him that is learned But for so muche as the Lorde God determining to set before our eyes a perfecte forme of his Churche is bothe able to doe it and hathe done it a man maye reason bothe wayes necessarily The Lorde hathe commaunded it shoulde be in his Churche therefore it muste And of the other side he hath not commaunded therefore it muste not be And it is not harde to shewe that the Prophetes haue so reasoned negatiuely As when in the person of the Lorde the Prophet saythe whereof I haue not spoken and whiche neuer entred into my heart and as where he condemneth them Ierem. 7. ver 31. 32. Esay 30. V. 2 * bicause they haue not asked counsell at the mouth of the Lorde Io. Whitgifte This my interpretation of their wordes is grounded vpon the whole discourse and drifte of their booke as it may euidently appeare to be true to any that hathe eyes to sée and eares to heare and shewe you if you can any one place in their booke whiche dothe ouerthrowe this my interpretation of their wordes I knowe it is one thing to saye that nothing muste be placed in the Churche and an other thing to saye that nothing muste be tolerated but I sée that they make no difference betwéene them neither in their writing nor yet in their practise And I thinke also that there is some difference betwixte these two manner of spéeches excepte it be commaunded in the worde of God and excepte it be expressed in the worde of God For I knowe sundrie thinges to be expressed in the worde of God whiche are not commaunded as Christ his fasting fortie dayes and his other myracles and therefore by that interpretation I haue giuen vnto them a larger scope than they them selues require whiche if it be an iniurie it is to my selfe and not to them But I thinke you were not well aduised when you sayde that many things are both An vnaduised assertion of T. C. tending to Papistrie commaunded and forbidden of whiche there is no expresse mention in the word of God whiche are as necessarilie to be followed or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made If you meane that many things are commaunded or forbidden in the worde which are not expressed in the worde in my opinion you speake contraries For howe can it be commaunded or forbidden in the worde excepte it be also expressed in the same If you meane that many thinges are commaunded or forbidden to bée doone necessarie vnto saluation whiche notwithstanding are not expressed in the worde of God then I sée not howe you differ from that opinion whiche is the grounde of all Papistrie that is that all things necessary vnto saluation are not expressed in the scriptures How soeuer you meane it it can not be true for there is nothing necessarie to eternall life which What is sayd to be expressed in the Scripture is not bothe commaunded and expressed in the Scripture I counte it expressed when it is either in manyfest wordes contayned in Scripture or therof gathered by necessary collection If I had to doe with a Papist I coulde
well and conueniently be But for so muche as you afterwarde make mention of excommunication and other censures of the Churche whiche are forerunners vnto excommunication I take it that you meane the externall gouernment of the Churche and that kynde of gouernment And yet muste I aske you another question that is whyther you meane that this gouernmente and kynde of gouermente is necessarye at all tymes or then when the Churche is collected together and in suche place where it maye haue gouernment For you knowe that the Churche is sometymes by persecution so dispersed that it appeareth not as we reade Apocal. 6. Nor hath anye certayne place to remayne in so that it can not haue anye externall gouernment or exercise of any discipline But to be shorte I confesse that in a Churche collected togither in one place and In what specte gouernment is necessarie at libertie gouernment is necessarie in the seconde kinde of necessitie but that any one kynde of gouernment is so necessarie that withoute it the Churche can not be saued or that it maye not be altered into some other kynde thought to be more expedient I vtterly denye and the reasons that moue me so to doe be these The firste is bycause I fynde no one certaine and perfitte kynde of gouernmente Reasons why the Church 〈◊〉 not tied to any one certayne kinde of externall gouernment prescribed or commaunded in the Scriptures to the Churche of Christ which no doubt shoulde haue bene done if it had bene a matter necessarie vnto the saluation of the Church Secondly bycause the essentiall notes of the Churche be these onely The true preaching of the worde of God and the righte administration of the Sacramentes Onely two essentiall notes of the church for as Maister Caluine sayth in his Booke agaynst the Anabaptistes Thys honour is meete to be gyuen to the worde of God and to his Sacramentes that wheresoeuer we Caluine aduer Anabap. see the worde of God truely preached and God accordyng to the same truely worshypped and the Sacramentes wythoute superstition administred there we maye wythoute all controuersie conclude the Churche of God to be and a little after so muche we muste esteeme the worde of God and hys Sacramentes that wheresoeuer we fynde them to be there we maye certaynely knowe the Churche of God to be althoughe in the common life of men manye faultes and errours be founde The same is the opinion of other godly and learned writers and the iudgement of the reformed Confess Heb uetica cap. 17. Churches as appeareth by their confessions So that notwythstanding gouernment or some kynde of gouernment maye be a parte of the Churche touching the outwarde forme and perfection of it yet is it not suche a parte of the essence and being but that it may be the Churche of Christ without this or that kinde of gouernment and therefore the kynde of gouernmente of the Churche is not necessarie vnto saluation The Church of Corinth when Paule did write vnto it was the Church of Christ for so doth he call it 1. Cor. 1. where also he doth giue vnto it a singular commendation and yet it had not at that time when he so commendeth it that kynde of gouernment and discipline that you meane of that is excommunication as appeareth 1. Cor. 5. My thirde reason is this If excommunicatiō which is a kind of gouernment be necessarie to saluation then any man may separate him selfe from euerie Church wherin is no excommunication but no man may separate himselfe from euery Church wherin is no excommunicatiō therfore excommunication which is a kynde of gouernment is not necessarie to saluation The first proposition is euident for no man is bounde to remaine in that Churche where any thing is wanting without the which he cannot want of excōmunication is no iust cause of separation from any Churche be saued As for the seconde proposition that is to saye that no man ought to separate him selfe from euerie Churche where excommunication is not bycause it is learnedly proued by suche as haue written against the Anabaptistes who both dyd teache and practise the contrarie it shall be sufficient to referre you vnto them Maister Caluine in hys Booke against the Anabaptistes fayth thus Herein is the controuersie Caluine aduer Anabap. betwixte the Anabaptistes and vs that they thinke there is no Church where this gouernment meaning excommunication is not appointed or not vsed and exercised as it ought to be nor that a Christian mā there ought to receiue the Supper and vnder that pretence they separate themselues from the Churches where the worde of God is truely preached c. M. Bullinger also in his sixt booke against the Anabaptistes saith This the Anabaptistes Bul. lib. 6. aduer Anabap. do vrge that there is no true Church acceptable vnto God where there is no excommunication the whiche they vse To these therefore we answere that the Churche of Corinth was a true Church and so acknowledged of Paule to be 1. Cor. 1. before there was any vse of excommunication in it c. of the same iudgement is M. Gaulter writing vpon Gualter in 1. Cor. 5. the first to the Corinth 5. VVhilest the Anabaptistes persuade themselues that there can be no discipline wythout excommunication they trouble the Churches euery where c. In the same Chapter he sayth that there is no one certaine kinde of gouernment or discipline prescribed to y e Churches but that the same may be altered as the profit of the Churches shall require His words among other be these Let euery Church follow Ibidem that maner of discipline which doth most agree with the people with whō it abideth and which seemeth to be most fit for the place and time And let no man here rashely prescribe vnto others neither let him binde all Churches to one and the same forme But of this matter I shall haue occasion to speake more hereafter where it shall appeare howe farre this learned man M. Gualter is from allowing that kinde of g uernment now in this state of the Churche the which T. C. woulde make vs to beléeue to be so necessarie This haue I briefely set downe not to disalowe discipline or gouernment for I thinke it very conuenient in the Church of Christ nor yet to reiect excommunicatiō which also hath a necessarie vse in the gouernment of the Church but to declare that this assertion can not stande with the truth with learning that the kynde of gouernment meaning as I thinke some one certaine kinde of externall gouernment is necessarie to saluation Chap. 1. the thirde Diuision T. C. Page 14. Sect. 1. 2. And it is no small iniurie which you do vnto the word of God to pinne it in so narrow roome as that it should be able to direct vs but in the principall poyntes of our Religion or as though the substance of Religion or some rude and
same to appoint as they shal thinke most conuenient and agréeable to the generall rules giuen in the scripture for that purpose Neither is this contrarie to any thing that I haue written But bothe in this and that also whiche immediatly foloweth you are contrarie to your self and directly ad oppositum to the Admonition T. C. is contrarie to himselfe and to the Admonition and agreeth with the answere As by conference may appeare for these be your owne wordes Whereby it lykewyse appeareth that we denye not but certayne things are lefte to the order of the Churche bycause they are of that nature which are varyed by tymes places persons other circumstances and so coulde not at once be set downe and established for euer And yet so left to the order of the Church as that it doe nothyng against the rules aforesayde What dothe this differ from these wordes of myne It is also true that nothing in Ceremonies order discipline or gouernmente of the Churche is to be suffered against the word of God and to this end doe all those authorities and places tende that I haue alledged for this matter So that eyther you vnderstand not me or not your selfe or else your quarell is againste the person not the cause The admonition in this poynt you defende not for it sayeth directly that those things only are to be placed in Fol. 19. Gods Church whiche the Lorde himselfe in his worde commaundeth And although peraduenture you will shifte this off by saying that they meane suche things only as bée commaunded eyther generally or specially yet the whole discourse of their booke declareth that their meaning is that nothing ought to be placed in the Church which is not specially commaunded in the worde of God But séeing you and I agrée in this that the Church hath authoritie to ordeyn ceremonies and make Orders whiche are not expressed in the woorde of God it remayneth to bée considered wherein we differ whiche is as I thinke in this that I say the Churche of England hath lawfully vsed her authoritie in suche ceremonies orders as she hath appointed nowe retaineth and you denie the same so that your controuersie is against the Church of England and the Ceremonies and orders vsed therein And therefore you adde and saye but howe doth this follow that certaine things are left to the order of the Churche therfore to make a newe ministerie c. Whereby you giue vs to vnderstande that the things you misselike in this Church are the office and name of an Archbishop whiche you vntruly call a newe ministerie as it is by me declared in my answere to the Admonition oure ministerie the gouernment of our Church and as you say other more that is all thinges at your pleasure But how iustly and truly this is spoken shall appeare in their proper places In the meane tyme it is sufficient to tell you that you are an vnwoorthy member of this Churche whiche so vniustly report of it so vnchristianly slaunder it and so without groundes and sounde proofes condemne it There is nothyng by it or in it altered which God hath ordeined and established not to be altered Chap. 1. the syxt Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 21 Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 22. Sect. 1. 2. The Scripture hath not prescribed any place or time wherein or when the Lordes Supper should be celebrated neither yet in what manner The Scripture hath not appoynted what tyme or where the congregation shall meete for common Prayer and for the hearing of the word of God neither yet any discipline for the correcting of such as shall contemne the same The Scripture hath not appointed what day in the weeke should be most meete for the Saboth day whither Saterday which is the Iewes Saboth or the day now obserued which was appointed by the Churche The Scripture hath not determined what forme is to be vs d in matrimonie what words what prayers what exhortations The Scripture speaketh not one worde of standing sitting or kneling at the Communion of meeting in Churches fieldes or houses to heare the word of God of preaching in pulpets chaires or otherwise of Baptising in fontes in basons or riuers openly or priuately at home or in the Church euery day in the weeke or on the Sabaoth day only And yet no man as I suppose is so simple to thinke that the Church hath no authoritie to take order in these matters T. C. Pag. 15. Sect. vlt. Pag. 16. Sect. 1. But whyle you goe about to seeme to say muche and rake vp a great number of things you haue made very euill meslyn and you haue put in one things which are not paires nor matches Bycause I will not drawe the Reader willingly into more questions than are alreadie put vp I will not stande to dispute whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday being the day of the Resurrection of our Sauior Christ and so the day wherin the world was renued as the Iewes Sabboth was the day wherin the world was finished and being in all the Churches in the Apostles tymes as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say that there was no (a) It is lesse true dealing for you to charg men wi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ey haue not affir ed. great indgement to make it as arbitrarie and chaungeable as the houre and the place of prayer But where was pour iudgement when you wrote that the scripture hath appointed no discipline nor correction for such as shal contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God what Church discipline would you haue other than admonitions reprehensions and if these will not profit excommunication and are they not appointed of our Sauiour Christ (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged Math. 18 There are also ciuill punishments and punishments of the body likewise appointed by the worde of God in diuers places (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged in the. 22. of Exodus He that sacrificeth to other gods not to the Lord alone shal die the death And in y e (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 19. of Deutronomie Thou shalte turne out the euill out of the middest of thee that the rest may eare and feare and not dare do the lyke The execution of this lawe appeareth in the (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 15. 2. Chro. by king Aza who made alawe that al those that did not seeke the Lord should be killed And thus you see the ciuill punishment of contemners of the worde and prayers There are other for suche as neglect the worde whiche are according to the quantitie of the faulte so that whether you meane ciuill or Ecciesiasticall correction the scripture (c) Or else you are deceyued hath defined of them bothe Io. Whitgifte Out of all these things whiche I saye the Scripture hath not prescribed or appointed T. C. seeketh quarels
question I omit that whyche he speaketh of this matter in his booke de sancto spiritu Idem where althoughe he gyueth too muche authoritie to vnwritten traditions yet dothe it there appeare that many thyngs were then vsed in the Church of Christ whyche were not expressed in the worde of God I myghte here alleage Socrates who Socrates in his sifte Booke and. 22. Chapter of hys ecclesiasticall historie handleth this matter at large and speakyng of Easter he saythe The Apostle and the Gospell doe in no place laye a bonde of seruitude vpon them whyche come to the preaching But men them selues haue euery one according as they thoughte meete in theyr countryes celebrated of custome the feast of Easter and other feastes for the resting from laboure and the remembrance of the healthfull passion c. and in the same Chapter No Religion obserueth the same rytes althoughe it embrace the same doctrine of them for they doe differ among themselues in rytes whiche are of the same fayth And so he procéedeth in declaryng the varietie of Ceremonyes and other obseruances and rytes in the Churches whereby it is manyfest that by hys Indgement many things are committed to the disposition of the Churche whyche are not expressed in the worde of God And that the Churche hathe vsed thys libertie from tyme to tyme to the same effecte speaketh Sozome Lib. 7. Cap. 19. They he meaneth Policarpus and Victor thought Sozome it follye and not wythoute cause to be separated one from another for Ceremonyes or Customes whyche dyd agree in the principall poyntes of Religion for you can not fynde the same rytes and altogether lyke in all Churches no thoughe they doe agree together I myghte pester thys Booke and that you knowe well enoughe wyth the iudgement of all the auncient Fathers that haue any occasion to speake of this matter but these maye suffice to declare that I haue not vainely vsed their names for mutes on the stage Touchyng Councels I maruayle you wyll make any doubte of them whervnto Councels of things indifferent tende the moste of theyr Canons in matters of Ceremonyes and gouernmente of the Churche but to teache that the Scriptures haue not expressed all thyngs concernyng the same bnt lefte them to the order and appoyntment of the Churche I praye you where shall you fynde in the Scripture the. 13. Canon Ancyrani Conci de vicarijs Episcoporum eorum potestate or the. 15. non debere pr sbyteros Ancyranum ecclesiastica iura vendere and diuerse others in the same Councell or the. 11. Canon Concil Nencaes Nicaenum Neocaesari of the certayne age of hym that ought to be minister or the. 1. Canon Concil Nicaeni of Enuches the fourth of ordering Byshoppes the sixte of Metropolitans the seuenth of the Byshop of Ierusalem the twentith of standyng in the tyme of Prayer or the. 7. Canon Concil Gangren or the. 18. or 20. or y e. 11. 15. 18. 19. c. Concil Arelatens Gangrense Arelatens But what shoulde I trouble the reader wyth suche particular rehearsals of so manye Councels whiche haue made suche a number of Canons concernyng suche matters as muste be ordered in the Churche whereof the Scripture hath particularly determyned nothyng is it not therefore manyfest that Councels both generall and prouinciall by their actes declare that touchyng Cer monyes discipline and gouernment of the Churche many things are lefte to the discretion of the Church whiche be not expressed in the Scriptures And whereas you charge me for not alleaging of Scriptures if I woulde Scriptures of things indifferent wythoute discretion cyte places nothyng pertayning to the purpose as you hytherto haue done I coulde vse a number but I had rather haue one texte to my purpose than a hundred wroong and wrested as yours be Howebeit there is no cause why you shoulde as yet complayne for hitherto I haue alleaged moe than you haue answered To the. 1. Cor. 14. as yet vnanswered I maye ioyne that which the 1. Cor. 14. 1. Cor. 11. 2. Apostle sayth 1. Cor. 11. Quemadmodùm tradidi vobis instituta tenetis You keepe the ordinances as I delyuered them to you The whych wordes Maister Caluine expoundyng sayth on thys sorte I doe not denye but that there were some traditions of the Apostles Caluine not written but I doe not graunt them to haue beene taken as partes of doctrine or necessarie vnto saluation VVhat then euen suche as dyd pertayne to order and pollicie For vve knovve that euerie Churche hathe libertie to ordayne and appoint suche a forme of gouernment as is apte and profitable for it bycause the Lorde therein hath prescribed no certainetie So Paule the firste founder of the Church of Corinthe dyd also frame it wyth honest and godly institutions that all things might there be done decently ▪ and in order And that also which is in the end of the Chapter Other things wyll I set in order when I come Wherevpon the same Maister 1. Cor. 11. 34. Caluine Caluine sayth But let suche toyes passe seyng that it is certaine that Paule speaketh but of externall comelynesse the vvhiche as it is put in the libertie of the Churche so it is to be appoynted accordyng to the tyme places and persons In déede I glory not in wordes so muche of the Scriptures as yeu d ee but I truste that I haue as sure grounde there for anye thyng that I haue affyrmed as you haue and muche more else woulde I be sorye It is not beasting of the Scriptures in wordes and falsely applying of them that can cary away the matter with those that be learned and wyse you knowe what Maister Caluine saythe of the Anabaptists in hys Booke written against them Quià verò nulla specie illustriore seduci possunt miseri Caluin aduersus Anabap. Why the Anabaptists alwayes pretended the worde of God Christiani c. But bicause the wofull Christians whiche with a zeale doe followe God can not by any other more notable shewe be seduced than when the worde of God is pretended the Anabaptistes agaynst whome we write haue that euermore in their mouthe and alwayes talke of it And yet in lawfull matters not expressed in the Scriptures I knowe not to whome we shoulde resorte to knowe the vse and antiquitie of them but to the Councels stories and doctors The opinion of S. Augustine of things indifferent Chap. 3. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 23. Sect. 1. That notable learned Father Augustine hathe diuerse sayings Augustin touchyng thys matter worthy to be noted In his Epistle ad Casulanum 86. he sayth thus In his rebus de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta maiorum pro lege tenenda sunt in those thyngs vvherein the holy Scripture hathe determined no certainetie the custome of the people of God the traditions or decrees of our forefathers are
like matters I woulde wishe you to deale sineerely the question that we haue nowe in ▪ The suttle dealing of T. C. in altering y e state of the controuersie hande is VVhether the Scripture hath expressed all externall things touchyng the orders Ceremonyes and gouernment of the Churche I proue it hath not both by the Scripture it selfe and by manyfest examples and by the iudgement of the beste learned you not beyng able to answere and yet desyrous to séeme to saye somewhat to shifte of these examples and authorities dallie at the matter and would make your Reader beléeue that I woulde haue thyngs vsed in the Churche contrarye or not accordyng to the Scriptures from the whych opinion I am as farre of as you and a greate waye farther excepte you reuoke some poyntes of youre Booke You shoulde therefore nowe haue kepte you to the improuyng of thys generall proposition and if hereafter in speakyng of particular matters I had approued any thing against the word of God you might haue spent ▪ your wit and eloquence in confuting of that You saye that thys place of Saynte Augustyne maketh muche agaynst me c. but you are greatly deceyued for Saint Augustyne in that place doth not gyue a certayne rule to the whole Churche but to particular men for it is hys aunswere so Ca ulanus demaundyng of hym Vtrùm liceat sabbato ieiunare A priuate man maye not take vpon hym to violate the particular orders of anye particular Churche much lesse suche orders as be obserued of the whole Churche excepte they be agaynst the Scriptures for bothe in thys and suche other rules of Augustyne that is generally to be obserued whyche the same Augustyne dothe adde in hys 118. Epistle ad Ianuarium quod nequè contra fidem nequè bonos mores iniungitur c. And that thys Augu. ep 〈◊〉 rule In bis rebus de quibus nihil certi c. is gyuen to particular men to dryue them from schismes and contentions in the Churche it is euident by that whyche the same Augustyne writeth in the ende of that Epistle ad Casulanum VVherefore if Idem you wyll willyngly content your selfe wyth my counsell namely whych haue in this cause being by you required and constrayned spoken peraduenture more than enough doe not resiste your Byshoppe herein and followe that whyche he dothe wythout any scruple or doubte Wherefore when Saint Augustyne sayth Mos populi Dei c. hys meanyng is that they are to be obserued as rules to kéepe priuate and particular men in order and in quiet obedience to the Churche Althoughe in deede The Church may not alter any order generally obserued without iust cause the Churche it selfe maye not wythoute iuste cause chaunge suche thyngs as haue beene generally obserued not beyng contra fidem bonos more 's agaynst faythe and good manners as the Lordes daye the daye of the Resurrection Ascention and suche lyke And there maye be iuste causes why thyngs once determyned by the Churche shoulde not be chaunged afterwardes thoughe before the same thyngs were arbitrarye and myghte haue béene otherwyse and in some other manner decréed as the Churche had thoughte moste conuenient If no suche causes be it maye alter anye vse Ceremonye or order whiche it hathe before determyned as Saynt Augustyne hym selfe declareth Epist. 118. ad Ianuarium His Idem enim causis id est propter fidem aut propter mores vel emendari oportet quod perperam fiebat vel institui quod non fiebat Ipsa quippe mutatio consuetudinis etiam quae adiuu t vtilitate nouitate perturbat For these causes that is to saye for faythe and good manners eyther that muste be amended whiche was euyll done or appoynted which was not done for euen that chaunge of Custome whych helpeth throughe profitte doth trouble through noueltie Nowe howe true thys collection of yours is Augustyne prescribeth thys rule to Casulanus that in those thyngs wherein the Scripture hathe determyned no cer aynetie he shoulde followe the Custome of the people of God and the decrees of oure forefathers that is that he shoulde vse hymselfe in those thyngs ▪ that be not agaynste faythe and good manners accordyng to the order of the Churches where he commeth therefore these Customes vpon iuste cause maye not be altered by the Churche let the learned Reader iudge Ap nate man a I sayde may not breake the lawfull and good orders of the Churche thoughe they be not expressed in the worde of God yet maye suche as God hathe gy that authoritie vnto in hys Churche alter and chaunge them as shall be moste 〈◊〉 euen according to this r le of Augustyne bis im 〈◊〉 id est aut propter fidem aut prop ores vel emendari oportet quod perpe m fiebat vel institui quod non f ebat c. before by me recyted We must followe suche cu omes of the Apostles and examples as they haue vsed What examples and customes of the Apostles we must follow and done for vs to followe but suche customes or doyngs of the Apostles as 〈◊〉 eyther peculiar vnto thems lues o 〈◊〉 onely for such 〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉 in ▪ we are not compelled to followe For as in the Scriptures 〈◊〉 be me preceptes generall some onely rsonall so are there in the sa of examples and orders some that for euer are to be obserued and some for a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that there were suche customes and orders among them shal be declared in seue all places as occasion is minis red Whether we haue receyued or maye retayne customes c. of the Papistes or no is partly to be discussed where I speake of apparell and partly in other places where more particular occasion is offered to speake of the same and therefore I will passe it ouer vntill I come to those places Whyther it were well done to fast in all places according to the custome of the place or no is not the question I looke to Augustynes meanyng and purpose not to euerye one of hys examples howbeit I thinke that there is a greate difference betwixte the manner of fastyng vsed then in the Churche and the manner of fasting vsed nowe in some Churches I thinke that in Augustynes tyme a man myghte haue obserued this rule of fastyng wythout anye offence to God But I doe not thinke that he may doe so in lyke manner nowe bycause it is certayne that in the Churche of Rome there are manye wicked opinions bothe of differences of meates tymes c. and also of merite ioyned to theyr fastyng and therefore are contra fidem bonos more 's and so not wythin the compasse of thys rule of S. Augustine I perceyue no repugnancie at all betwixte Ambrose Augustyne Ignatius and The Replyer setteth the fathers together by the eares without cause Tertullian For the Sabboth daye mentioned by Ambrose and Augustyne is not the Lordes daye whych we call the
of the passion and resurrection c. you either thrust vpon vs as the decree of the Apostles or at least put vpon vs a necessitie of keeping of them least happily in breaking of them we might breake the Apostles decree for you make it to lye betweene the Councels and the Apostles whiche of them decreed this And do you not perceyue howe you still reason agaynst your selfe For if the Church haue had so great regarde to that whiche the Apostles did in the es that they kepte those things which are not written and therefore are doubtfull whether euer they vsed them or no howe much ore shoulde we holde our selues to these things whiche are written that they did and of the which we are assured As touching the obseruation of these holydayes I will referre the Reader vnto an other place where occasion is giuen agayne to speake of them Io. Whitgifte My meaning therein I haue set downe in my answere It is to let you vnderstande The rule of S. Augustine doth not establishe but ouerthrow p perie S. Augustines iudgement in the matter we haue in hande The rule is true and good and so farre from establishing any péece of Poperie that if rather quite ouerthroweth the same By it we may proue the supremacie whiche the Bishop of Rome claymeth ouer all Churches neither to be written in the worde nor yet to be appoynted by the Apostles nor yet determined by auncient generall Councels for neither hath he bin alwayes nor in all places taken to be the head of the Church And it is manyfest that Phocas the traytor and murderer gaue first vnto him and his Churche that prerogatiue and therfore not lefte vnto him by the Apostles nor giuen him by the generall Councels The like may be sayde of all other thinges vsed in the Churche agaynst the worde of God For it is certayne that they haue not béene generally obserued in all places and at all times and if some of them haue bëene so obserued yet not in that maner and forme that the Churche of Rome dothe nowe obserue them So that you finde fault with this rule before you haue cause Master Zuinglius who woulde haue béene lothe one whit to strengthen the Papistes speaking of the lyke place of S. Augustine in his booke de baptismo sayth thus But leauing those thinges Zuingl de baptis of the rule of Aug. let vs returne to the wordes of Augustine who among other thinges addeth this Quanquà m quod vniuersa tenet ecclesia nec concitijs institutum sed semper retentum est non nisi authoritate Apostolica traditum rectissimè creditur c. Let these words sayth he preuayle with other mē as they may yet no mā can denie but that there lieth great waight of authoritie in them For if there be nothing in Councels concluded of the baptising of Infants and yet the same was vniuersally of the whole Churche obserued in Angustines time what other thing can be gathered but that it hathe alwayes beene vsed without contradiction Master Caluine also Lib. Insti Cap. 13. Sect. 21. vseth this rule of Augustine to the same purpose where he speaking of Popishe traditions for the whiche they abuse the authoritie of Augustine saythe thus Ego verò non aliundè quam ex ipsius Augustini verbis solutionem afferam Quae toto inquit terrarum orbe seruantur vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel concilijs generalibus quorum est in ecclesia saluberrimā authoritas statuta esse intelligere licet Verily I will fetche a solution from no other place than from the very wordes of Augustine Those thinges sayth he which are obserued throughout the whole world are vnderstode to haue bin instituted either of the Apostles themselues or of generall Councels c. As it is in the answere to the Admonition I knowe no reason why the Apostles maye not be sayde to be the authors of celebrating the day of the Passion c. Neither yet doe I vnder stande anye cause why the Churche maye not still obserue the same sure I am that they were not the authors of the superstitions and errours vsed in them by the Papistes neyther dothe Augustine saye so for this is no good argument to saye the Apostles appoynted these dayes to be celebrated Ergo they appoynted the manner of celebrating vsed by the Papistes The dayes maye be wyth more godlynesse and profite to the Churche obserued béeing clensed from super stition and erroneous doctrine than abrogated Neyther is thys to open a gate to Papisticall traditions but to shutte it close vp as I haue sayde before For let the Papistes if they can name anye wycked thing vsed in their Churche whiche eyther bathe béene generally obserued or wherof I am not able to shewe the first author and inuentor Neyther Aug in this place nor I in any place haue sayde or con it 〈◊〉 thing not cōntayned in the Scripture to bee so necessarie to bee obserued that vpon inst consideration it may not be altered by suche as haue authoritie And 〈◊〉 all that you doe say haue sayd or shall say 〈◊〉 that effecte is forged and vntrue deuised onely by you as a shifte to flye vnto when otherwise you are to seeke for answere To these your wordes they are necessarie to be kept if they be commanded by the Apostles ▪ meaning suche things as Augustine speaketh of I answere with master Caluin who as I tolde you before writing vpon these wordes 1. Cor11 Quemadmodum tradidi vobis c. dothe graunt that there were some traditions of the Apostles not written but he denieth them to be taken aspartes of doctrine o necessarie to saluation saying that they be onely suche as pertayne to order and pollicie The rest of this section of yours is nothing but Petitio Principij For neither doe I moue any such doubt in Augustines words neither is it materiall whether I do or no nether yet is it true that there is any thing commaunded of God or of the Apostles as necessarie to saluation whiche is not contayned in the worde of God neyther are these and suche like traditions partes of doctrine and of saluation as M. Caluin truely sayth but of order and pollicie Who woulde thinke that any man excepte he had hardened his face without A grosse error of T. C. blushing to affirme vntruthes would haue fallen into suche grosse absurdities and vttered suche straunge assertions voyde of all truthe Haue you euer read in Scripture or in the writinges of any learned man or can you by reason proue this Paradox that all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for our saluation What is to lay an intollerable yoke and burthen vpon the neckes of men if this be not or whereby could you more directly bring vs into the bondage of the lawe from the whiche we are made free than by this assertion for if all the commaundements Gal. 5. of God c. are needefull for
our saluation then must we be bounde vpon necessitie of saluation to obserue the whole Ceremoniall law which was the commaundement of God What was the commaundement vnto Abraham to offer his sonne Isahac Genes 22. vnto the Israelites to robbe the Egyptians vnto Moses to put off his shoes vnto Exod. 11. Saule to kill Amalech and infinite other needefull for our saluation is the commaundement Exod. 3. of the Apostles to abstayne from bloud and that whiche is strangled or of 1 Sam. 15. Paule vnto Timothie to drinke wine c. needefull for our saluation What a torment Act. 15. is this doctrine able to bring vnto a weake conscience whiche hathe not obserued 1. Tim. 5. any one of these You muste therefore vnderstande that there are diuers kindes of commaundementes of God and of the Apostles some generall and giuen to all other Diuerskinds of commaundements personall and pertayne onely to one singular person or to one nation and kinde of people c. Agayn there are some which are perpetual not to be omitted or altered other which are temporall and may be omitted or altered as the circūstance of time place persons doth require Wherby it may appeare howe grossely you haue erred in affirming that all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for oure saluation I might in more ample maner prosecute this matter but this that hathe bin spoken may suffice What I haue sayde of chaunging the Lordes day and howe you haue satisfied my wordes is declared before and so is the answere made likewise vnto this your féeble conclusion grounded vpon a falie principle Which of vs two is caried furthest by his affections let the indifferēt reader iudge by these and suche other like dealings of yours I haue tolde you before howe muche this and the other places of S. Augustine maketh for my purpose whiche you can not but vnderstande if you soughte not corners to creepe into for the auoyding of suche reasons and authorities as be moste apte for my purpose Things whiche the Apostles haue done for vs to followe without any exception may not be violated but the question is whether these things whiche they haue done and written be sufficient for the ordering and gouernment of all Churches in all times and states or no. And whether in all things that they haue done we may or oughte to follow them both which you haue hitherto very slenderly touched Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 24. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Pag. 25. Sect. 1. And agayne Quod neque contra fidem neque contra bonos more 's iniungitur indifferenter est habendum pro eorum inter quos viuitur societate seruandum est That vvhich is enioyned being neither agaynst fayth nor good maners is to be counted indifferent and to be obserued as the societie of those vvith vvhome vve lyne requiteth In the same Epistle answering this question whether vpon the Thursday before Easter the Lordes supper shoulde be celebrated in the morning or at nighte because Christe dyd institute this Sacrament and deliuer the same to hys Disciples after supper he gyueth these three rules worthy to be noted the first is this If the holy Scripture prescribe any thing to be done there is no doubte but that muste be obserued as it is there prescribed The seconde is this That if any thing be vniuersally obserued of the vvhole Churche not repugnant to the Scriptures for so he meaneth not to keepe that or to reason of that is madnesse The thirde If it be not vniuersally obserued but diuersly in diuers Churches Faciat quisque quod in ea ecclesia in quā venit inuenerit Let euery man do as he findeth in that Churche into the vvhiche he commeth modònon sit contra fidem aut contra mores So that it be not agaynst faythe or good maners for so he addeth In the same Epistle agayne he sayth that the Lorde hath not in Scripture declared in what order and maner his Supper shoulde be celebrated but lefte that to his Disciples And in his hundreth and nintenth ad Ianuar. In those things sayth he that be diuersly obserued in diuers places this rule as moste profitable is to be kepte that those things vvhich be not agaynst faythe neither good maners and make something to exhorte vnto a better life vvheresoeuer they are instituted vve ought not onely not to disallovve them but to prayse them and to follovv them By all these places of this learned father it is euident that it hathe beene receyued from time to time as a certayne truthe that the Church of Christ hath authoritie to ordayne and constitute as shall be necessarie in those things before of me rehearsed For a further proofe heereof I coulde alleage that auncient and learned father Iustinus Martyr in his seconde Apologie pro Iustinus Martyr Christianis and in his booke of questions Tertullian in his booke Decorona militis Basill also in his 63. Epistle writtē to the ministers of Neocaesaria Tertul. Eusebius Lib. 5. Ecclesiasti histor Cap. 25. 26. and diuers other but I omit Basil. them for breuitie sake neither doe I alleage those learned fathers Euseb. because I thinke their authoritie any thing at all preuayleth with the authors of the Libell but for the wyse discrete humble and learned whose humilitie and wysdome wyll not suffer them to despise the iudgements of so learned and godly fathers T. C. Pag. 18. Sect. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. Pag. 19. Sect. 1. As for that rule that he giueth when he say the what so euer is not c. and for the last of the three rules I receyue them with his owne interpretation whiche he hathe afterwarde in 119. Epist. ad Ianuarium whiche is that it be also profitable And as for those three rules which you say are worthy to be noted I can see nothing that they helpe your cause one whitte for I knowe no man that euer denied but that the Church may in suche thinges as are not specified and precisely determined make orders so they be grounded of those generall rules which I haue before alleaged out of S. Paule And as for the seconde of the three rules I can not at any hande allowe it for when all Christianitie was ouerrunne with poperie thinges were vniuersally obserued whiche to keepe were meere wickednesse and this strengtheneth the Papistes vniuersalitie Concerning your Glose if it be not repugnant to the scripture besides that it is not inough because it muste be grounded by the Scripture and that it is wicked to giue suche authoritie to any decree of men that a man shoulde not enquire of it or reason of it I haue shewed that he mente nothing lesse For affirming that suche thinges are the Apostles commaundementes his meaning was that they shoulde be without all exception receyued and absolutely 〈◊〉 muche better is it that wee take heede to
is nothyng lesse bycause he is dead Concerning all the rest of your collections I haue not lightly knowne a man whiche ta eth so much paine w t so small gain which soweth his seed in the sea wherof ther wil neuer rise encrease For I know none that euer deined those things vnlesse peraduenture you would make the reader beleeue y e a those be contētious which moue any controuersie of things which they iudge to be amisse then it is answered before now I answere further that they that moue to reformation of things are no more to be blamed as authors of contētion than the Physitiō which giueth a purgatiō is to be blamed for the rumbling stirre in y e beliy other disquietnesse of y e body which should not haue be 〈◊〉 y e 〈◊〉 humors naughty disposition of it had not caused or procured this purgation Wheras you conclude that these contētions would be spon ended if M Caluins words were no ed here we wil ioyn with you wil not refuse y e (d) In any place that maketh with you but not otherwise iudgemēt of M. Caluin in any matter that we haue in controuers e with you which I speake not therfore bicause I woulde call the decision of controuersies to men and theyr words whych pertayn only to God and to his word but bicause I know his iudgement in these thyngs to be cleane against you and especially for that you would beate men in hand that M. Caluin is on your syde and agaynst vs. Io. Whitgifte If you your selfe will of necessitie inforce these qualities and conditions of Anabaptistes whiche I in the beginning rehersed vpon the authors of the admonition who can let you The moste that I haue sayde is that I suspecte them bycause they so agree with them in certaine qualities and practices But if they were bent that waye yet doth it not folow that they woulde by and by séeme to contemne M. Caluines or any other famous and learned mannes iudgemente For you knowe that the chiefe captaines of the Anabaptistes did not forthwith vtter eyther al their contempt of learned men or all their pestiferous opinions at the fyrst but vsed therin some policie suche as might most preuayle to winne credite vnto theyr faction You remember that Zuinglius in his booke called Ecclesiast sayth of the Anabaptists Zuinglius aducrs Anab. that though they protested and by othe denyed that they ment to take any authoritie from the magistrate yet shortly after it would appeare that they would haue bin disobedient to all lawes of Magistrates c. as I haue before rehersed the practise wherof is to be séene in Sleidan and other stories And although in the beginning it was pretended that the contention was but in matters of no great importance as cap surplesse tippet c. yet in the additions to the first admonition fol. 9. it is protested that the strife is for greater matters as for a true ministerie and gouernmente of the Churche and nowe you say that certain matters Fol. 5. sect vlt. Fo. 14. lin 5. Fol. 6. sect 4. whiche be in controuersie are matters of lyfe and death of saluation and damnation fol. 5. 14. Besides all thys the additions that you make to the protestation of your obediēcs to the ciuile Magistrate fol. 6. c. is verie suspicious so is your doctrine touching the authoritie of the ciuill magistrate also as I haue in an other place declared Wherfore how farre both they and you will as yet procéede is not certainly knowne In the meane tyme if by allowing suche as M. Caluine is some credite were not maintained wise and learned men would the sooner espie their dooings When I say that I trust M. Caluines iudgemente will weigh some thing with them I speake it but in comparison to the authoritie of suche as I haue before alleaged For I know they make small acc mpt of any author that writeth against them but least of all of the olde auncient fathers whom some of them are not ashamed to call pillorie Doctours They may therfore beare a countenance to suche as hate and confute Anabaptisme Papisme c. and yet both ioyne with the Papists and the Anabaptists c. in disturbing the Churche As the woordes of M. Caluine be directely to my purpose and my collections truly gathered out of them so is your answere thervnto verie weake and in déed nothing The woordes of M. Caluine wher vpon my seconde collection is gathered be these But bicause in externall discipline and ceremonies he woulde not particularly prescribe what we ought to followe bycause he foresaw that this depended vpon the state and condition of the tyme neyther did iudge one forme or maner to be agreeable to all ages Here we must haue respect c. Conferre these woordes with my collection and you shall sée them agrée in all poyntes And surely M. Caluine sayeth that fully and plainely in this place whiche I haue taken in hande to proue M. Caluine neyther addeth all nor some and therfore neyther haue I added them least I mighte séeme to be a corrupter of his woordes Your obiection of the Supper of the Lorde and of Baptisme is altogether friuolous for they be substantiall Ceremonies and not ceremonies onely but Sacramentes also and therfore must haue of necessitie an expresse commaundement in the worde of God Touching excōmunication I shal speake hereafter it is the matter that the Anabaptists so greatly vrged and for the not vsing of the whiche they separated themselues from the Churches where the Gospell was preached as appeareth in the bookes bothe of Caluine Bullinger and others against them I knowe that touchyng Excommunication whether the vse of it bée at all ymes so necessarye or no that it maye not bée altered learned men doe varie in iudgementes whose opinions in that matter I will deferre vntill I come where I haue farther occasion to speake of it If M. Caluine were alyue and vnderstode the state of our Churche and controuersie truly I verily beléeue that he would vtterly condemne your doings and I am the rather induced to thinke so bicause I vnderstande him to haue allowed many things in the Englishe Church being at Geneua which you altogither misselyke as Funeral sermons c. And therfore he would not thinke his wordes racked one whit to establishe any thing that he would haue had ouerthrowne The rest of my collections are most agréeable to M Caluines woords moste necessary for this present time and moste apte for my purpose and youre passing them ouer so slightly doth argue your lacke of abilitie to answere them In deede they flatly determine this controuersie and in effect ouerthrowe your whole booke Those that make contention in the Churche for suche matters as you doe and in suche sorte and maner can not auoyde the iuste accusations of being contentious persons and if the Physition giueth a purgation where there
is no néede or a more vehement purgation than is conuenient for the disease or minister it out of time or giue one purgation for an other c. what rumbling and stirre soeuer follow in the bodye he may be iustly sayde to be the author and cause of them Do you not knowe what Zuinglius sayeth in his Ecclesiast speaking of Anabaptistes If they were sente of God Zuinglius i Ecclesi st Id m de bapti mo and endued with the spirite of loue they would haue construed in the beste parte those externall things c. And againe Christe neuer made any contention for externall thinges and in his booke de Baptismo They go aboute innouations of their owne priuate authoritie c. I vse M. Caluines iudgement as I vse the iudgement of other learned men neyther will I refuse any learned mans opinion in these controuersies that truly and wholly vnderstandeth the state of this Church and the grounde of all thinges vsed in it But I doubt how you will hereafter stand to this offer ¶ The opinion of Bucer of things indifferent Chap. 5. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag 29. Sect. 5. 6. Of the same iudgement in this matter is M. Bucer as it appeareth Bucer of things indifferent in his Epistle to M. Alasco these be his wordes If you vvill not admit such libertie and vse of vesture to this pure and holie Church bycause they haue no commaundement of the Lord nor example of it I doo not see hovv you can graunt to any Church that it may celebrate the Lordes Supper in the morning and in an open Churche especially consecrated to the Lorde that the Sacrament may be distributed to men kneeling or standing yea to vvomen as vvell as to men For vvee haue receiued of these things neither commaundement of the Lorde nor any example yea rather the Lorde gaue a contrarie example For in the euening and in a priuate house he did make his Supper and distributed the Sacramentes and that to men only and sitting at the table Haec Bucerus But to ende this matter is it not as lawfull for a godlie Prince with the aduise and consent of godlie and lerned Bishops and other of the wysest to make orders in the Church and lawes Ecclesiasticall as it is for euery priuate man to vse what maner and forme of seruice he list and other order aud discipline in his own parish which these men seeke and striue to doe T. C. Page 20. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Pag. 21. Sect. 1. And as for Peter Martyr and Bucer and Musculus and Bullinger Gualter and Hemingius and the rest of the late writers by citing of whome you woulde gyue to vnderstande that they are agaynste vs in these matters there is set downe in the latter ende of this booke their seuerall iudgements of the moste of these thinges whiche are in controuersie whereby it maye appeare that if they haue spoken one woorde agaynste vs they haue You do learned mē great iniury in accusing thē of contrarietie spoken two for vs. And whereas they haue written as it is said and alieadged in their priuate letters to their friends agaynst some of these causes it may appeare that they haue in their works published to the whole world that they confirme the same causes So that if they wrote any such things they shall be found not so much to haue dissented from vs as from themselues and therefore we appeale from themselues vnto themselues and from their priuate notes and letters to their publike writings as more autenticall You laboure still in the fire that is vnprofitable to bring M. Bucer his Epistle to proue that the Church may order thinges whereof there is no particular and expressed commaundement for there is none denieth it neyther is this saying that all things are to be done in the Church according to the rule of the word of God any thing repugnant vnto this that the Church may ordeyne certayne things according to the word of God But if this Epistle and others of M. Bucers with his notes vpon the booke of common prayer which are so often cited and certaine Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were neuer printed as (1) You cannot but vnderstand that they are printed I cannot vnderstand they were then besides that you do vs iniury which go about to preiudice our cause by the testimonies of them whiche we can neyther heare nor see being kepte close in your study you also do your cause much more iniurie whilest you betray the pouertie and nakednesse of it being fame to ransacke and ruffle vp euery darke corner to find something to couer it with Therefore it were good before you tooke any benefyte of them to let them come foorthe and speake their owne testimonies in their owne language and full out For now you giue men occasion to thinke that there are some other thinges in their Epistles whiche you would be loth the world should know for feare of fall of that which you would gladly keepe There is (2) What say you than to the. 14. reason of the Admonition then ministers were not so tyed to any forme of prayers c. no man that sayth that it ought to be permitted to euery person in the Churche where he is minister to haue such order or discipline or to vse such seruice as he listeth no man seeketh for it But to haue the order which God hathe left in those things which the word precisely appoynteth and in other things to vse that which shall be according to the rules of S. Paule before recited agreed by the Church aud confirmed by the prince And wheras you haue euer hitherto giuen the ordering of these things to the Church how come you now to (3) An vn truth for I gyue it not to the Byshops only but to a godly Prince with the aduice and consent of godly and learned Byshops and other of the wisest ascribe it to the Byshops you meane I am sure the Byshops as we call Byshops here in England whereby you fall into the opinion of the Papists vnawares whiche when they haue spoken many things of the Churche inagnifically at the last they bring it now to the doctours of the Church now to Byshops As for me although I doubt not but there be many good men of the Byshops and very learned also and therefore very meete to be admitted into that consultation whereinit shall be considered what things are good in the Church yet in respect of that office and calling of a Byshop which they now exercise I thinke that euery godly learned minister and pastour of the Churche hath more interest and righte in respect of his office to be at that consultation then any Byshop or Archbishop in the Realme for as much as he hath an ordinarie calling of God and function appoynted in the scriptures which he exerciseth and the other hath not But how this authoritie perteyning to the
whole Church of making of such orders may and ought to be called to a certayne number that confusion may be auoyded and with the consent also of the Churches to auoyde tyrannie it shall appeare in a more proper place where we shall haue occasion to speake of the eldership or gouernment in euery Church and of the communion and societie or participation intercommuning of the Churches togyther by councels and assemblies prouinciall or nationall Io. Whitgifte Diuers of those learned men here named being rightly enformed of the state of The occasion of mens writings must be considered this controuersie with all the circumstances perteyning therevnto haue set downe their opinions in writing and therefore if it should so come to passe which as yet is not proued neyther as I thinke will be that in their publike writings they should séeme to affirme any thing contrary to their priuate letters it is bycause they speaking generally of all and hauing respect to the time and place wherein and when such things were abused haue generally spoken of them otherwise then they do as they be now vsed in this Church of England And surely in my opinion these their epistles wherein of purpose being required they gyue their sentence of suche matters oughte to be more credited than their generall writings wherein they maye séeme otherwise to speake vppon other occasions But I thinke that in the ende it will fall out that they haue written nothyng publikely againste any thing that is written by them priuately and of some of them I am sure that their publike and priuate writings of these matters doe fully agrée But where haue you learned to answere on this sorte to the authoritie of learned men to accuse them of contrarietie before you haue manifestly proued it is to doe vnto them great iniurie The place of M. Bucer maketh directly for my purpose and therefore in giuyng place vnto it you graunte as muche as I hitherto haue required For M. Bucer vsed the example of apparell whiche is one thing in controuersie betwixte vs and sayeth playnly that the Church hath authoritie to appoint such things as haue neyther cōmaundement nor example in the Scripture These Epistles of M. Bucer and of M. Martyr with the Epistles of other learned men be printed and published wholly and fully and it can not bée that the same should be vnknown vnto you the bookes being so cōmon your pleading of ignorance in this thing is but a colour When euery Minister must be chiefe of the seigniorie and haue with some other of the parishe the whole authoritie Ecclesiasticall when they must not bee so First admo ▪ the. 14. reason tyed to any forme of prayers but as the spirite moueth them so to poure out supplications when the Prince is secluded from authoritie in appoynting of ceremonies and orders of discipline that is when in Ecclesiasticall matters you giue to the Ciuill magistrate no more than the Papistes do to wit potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris as will afterwardes more plainly appeare what is it else but for euery minister to be Pope in his owne parishe and to vse suche order discipline and seruice as he himselfe listeth If you had bin disposed to speake the truthe and to report my wordes as they be written you woulde haue eased your booke of these lynes whiche followe For where doe I giue this authoritie to the Bishops or in what words do I restrayne the Churche to them my wordes be these Is it not as lawfull for a godly Prince with the aduise and consente of godlie and learned Bishops and other of the wysest to make orders in the Church c. You sée that I ioyne the Prince the Bishops and other of the wisest together in making of orders c. and whensoeuer I meane the Churche in suche a case I meane not the confused multitude of the Church but suche as God hath called to gouerne his Church in the externall gouernment whome I take to be in this Churche the Prince the Bishops the Councell and suche other as by the order of this Churche haue to do in suche like matters Your falsifying hurteth not me but discrediteth your selfe and your cause The Bishops haue muche to thanke you that it would please you to admitte them into that consultation of yours if they woulde giue ouer that office and callyng But thanks be vnto God you haue as yet no suche authoritie committed vnto you Wherfore this and suche lyke kynde of speaches doe but declare howe magnifically you thynke of your selfe c. If it pertayne to the whole Churche that is as I thinke you vnderstande it to the whole multitude of the Churche to make suche orders howe can you restraine it to a certaine number or why not as well to some one if the multitude thynke it so conuenient but of this matter when you come to youre seigniorie and kinde of gouernment Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 30. Sect. 1. An examination of the places c. TO proue that nothing in this mortall lyfe is more diligently to be sought for and carefully to be looked vnto than the restitution of true Religion and reformation of Gods Churche there is noted 2. Reg. 23. 2. Chro. 17. 2. Chro. 29. 30. 31. Psalm .. 132 Math 21. Ioh. 2. In the firste place it is declared howe Iosiah after he had founde the booke of the lawe reformed the Churche In the seconde place Iehosaphat tooke away the high places and groues out of Iuda c. In the 29. 30. 31. of the. 2. Chron. is described the doings of Ezechias in repairing the temple and reforming religion c. In the. 132. Psalme it is declared with what care Dauid went about to build the temple of God after that he was once established in his kingdome In the. 12. of Math. Iesus went into the temple and cast out all them that bought and sold in the temple c. The like he did in the seconde of Iohn All this is confessed to be true and no man denieth it And I pray God make vs thankfull for the Queenes maiestie who hathe not bin slacke in this point but hath like a vertuous religious and godly prince in the very entring into hir raigne notwithstanding the multitude of hir aduersaries bothe at home and abrode abolished all superstition and restored the simplicitie of the Gospell But these men alleadge these places to the discredite of this reformation and of the whole gouernmente of this Churche How aptly and how truly let godly wise and learned meniudge Io. Whitgifte All this is passed ouer with silence and nothing said vnto it good or bad The exposition of the places Deu. 4. 12. quoted by the Admonition Cap. 6. The first Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 30. Sect. 2. TO proue that these things only are to be placed in gods Church The places in the. 4. and. 12. o Deutero expounded whiche God himselfe in
of men But why doe they condemne whole Churches for indifferent things whiche if they woulde obey S. Paule ought to apply them selues to the weakenesse of euery one Beza in an Epistle of his prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Heluetia Beza sayth That all rytes and ceremonyes are not to be receiued without exception which the Apostolike Church it selfe hath vsed eyther as profitable or necessarie for their tymes and in his booke called confessio Christ. fidei cap. 5. he writeth That one cause of Councels and Idem Synodes was to make rules of ecclesiasticall discipline and to appoint the gouernment of the Church according to the diuersitie of time place and persons For it is necessarie that in the house of the Lorde all things shoulde be done in order of the vvhich order there is one generall reason in the vvorde of God 1. Cor. 14. But not one and the same forme agreeing to all circumstances And againe in the same Chapter he sayth The rules or canons of rytes and Idem orders in the Church haue respect to comelynesse in externall things and therefore they be neither generall for the most parte nor perpetuall for that which is profitable in some place in other some places would rather hurt and moreouer the diuerse respectes of the time are such that the same thing which for good considerations was ordained must of necessitie sometime be abrogated whereof it comes to passe that there is not onely so great varietie in the olde canons but contrarietie also Againe in the same Chapter VVe must Idem not alwayes looke what the Apostles did in politia ecclesiastica in the gouernmente of the Church seyng there be most diuerse circumstances and therfore absque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without ☜ preposterous zeale all things can not in all places and times be reduced to one and the same forme c. In the confessiō of the Churches in Heluetia c. it is thus written Men shall easily Confess ecclesiarum Heluet. gather this also that we doe not by any wicked schisme seuer or cut off oure selues from Christes holy Churches of Germanie Fraunce England and other Christian nations but that we well agree with all and euery one of them in the truth of Christe which here we haue acknowledged For albeit there is some varietie in diuerse Churches aboute the vttering and setting forth of their doctrine and aboute rytes and ceremonyes which they receiue as a meane to edifie their Churches yet that varietie neuer semed to minister cause of dissention and schisme in the Church for in such matters the Churches of Christ haue alvvayes vsed their libertie as we may reade in the Ecclesiasticall history I omit here the confession of the Church of VVirtenberge and the testimonyes of sundry other notable learned men I knowe no learned writer that doth denye the Church to haue authoritie in appoynting rytes ceremonyes discipline and kinde of gouernment according to the place time persons and other circumstances thoughe the same be not expressed in the word of God so that it doe nothing repugnante to the same But what néede I labour so much in a matter confessed by him that would séeme to ouerthrowe it for if the Iewes had twentie things left to their order in the Churche for our Pag. 21. Sect. one as T. C. hath affirmed and yet this commaundement not broken Deu. 4. 12. Nihil addes verbo c then may the Church of Christ vse hir libertie in like maner wythout any breache of the same Wherefore to conclude I nowe referre it to the iudgement of the Reader whether if be true or not that I haue affyrmed against the Authors of the Admonition to wit that those things onely are not to be brought in or vsed in the Church which the Lord himselfe in his word hath commaunded but that of necessitie in externall things and outward gouernment the Churche hath authoritie to determine according to time place person c. though the same be not commaunded or expressed in Scripture so that it be not repugnant to the word Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 32. Sect. 1. 2. Pag. 33. Sect. 1. The other places noted in this margent as Psal. 37. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. Scriptures vnchristianly abused by the Admonition 2. and the rest are not alleaged to proue any thing in cōtrouersie but onely withoute iudgement placed in the margent to make a shewe how aptly they be applyed I leaue to the consideration of the diligent Reader This one thing I can not but maruell at that these fellowes so please themselues in the platforme of their Church and attribute so much thervnto that they exhorte nay rather charge the courte of Parliament with perfecte hatred to detest the present state of the Churche with singular loue to embrace that which they prescribe in this Booke and to moue them rather to this perfect hatred of vs and singular loue of themselues they vse the authoritie of the. 31. and 139. Psalme In the one Dauid sayth that he hath hated them that gyue themselues to deceitfull vanities bicause he trusteth in the Lorde In the other speaking of the contemners of God of wicked and bloudie men Marke this spirite and of such as blaspheme God and be his enemyes he sayth I hate them vvith an vnfained hatred c. As thoughe all suche as like or alowe of the presente state of the Churche of this Realme of England gaue them selues to deceitfull vanities were contemners of God wicked and bloudy men blasphemers of God and his enimyes I will not aggrauate this blasphemie of theirs let Prince Nobles and all other louers of God his worde consider diligently this spirite and in time preuent the burning malice of the same no Turke no Iewe no Papist coulde possibly haue spoken more spitefully of this Church and state but such is the spirite of arrogancie To the lyke effecte they alleage the. 15. of Iohn 1. Timo. 3. Math. 7. 11. as thoughe they onely had the word of God and were of the Churche and we contemners and reiecters of the same O where is humilitie Truely if these men be not by discipline brideled they wil worke more harme to this Church than euer the Papist dyd Io. Whitgifte To this there is not one word spoken Admonition May it therefore please your wisedomes to vnderstande we in Englande are so farre off from hauing a Church rightly reformed according to the prescript of Gods word that as yet we are not come to the outwarde face of the same For to speake of that wherein all consent and wherevpon all writers accorde The outwarde markes wherby a true Christian Church is knowne are preaching of the worde purely ministring of the Sacramentes sincerely and Ecclesiasticall discipline which consisteth in admonition and correcting of faultes seuerely Touching the first namely the ministerie of the worde althougher must be confessed that the substance
of doctrine by many deliuered is sounde and good yet herein it fayleth that neither the Ministers thereof are accordyng to Gods worde proued elected called or ordained nor the function in such sorte so narrowly loked vnto as of right it ought and is of necessitie required Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 34. 35. The proposition that these libellers woulde proue is that we in Englande are so farre from hauyng a Churche rightly reformed accordyng to the prescripte of Gods worde that as yet we are not come to the outwarde face of the same For proofe hereof they vse this argnment There be three out warde markes whereby a true Christian Churche is knowen preaching of the worde purely ministryng of the Sacramentes sincerely and ecclesiasticall discipline whiche consisteth in Admonition and correction of faultes seuerely But thys Church of Englande for so in effecte they saye is voyde of all these Ergo it hath not so much as the externall face of a Church To proue that the worde of God is not preached truely they reason on thys sort The Ministers of the worde are not according to gods worde proued elected called or ordeyned nor the function in suche sort so narrowly loked vnto as of right it ought is of necessitie required And therfore the word of God not truely preached Here All pointes of doctrine pure in this church thankes be to God they alleage not one article of Faith or poynte of doctrine nor one peece of any substance to be otherwise taughte and allowed of in thys Churche for not euery mannes folly is to be ascribed to the whole Churche than by the prescripte worde of God may be iustified neyther can they Nowe howe this conclusion followeth though the antecedent were true let those iudge that be learned The Ministers are not rightly proued and elected c. An vnapt r son Ergo the worde of God is not truely preached howe wicked so euer the man is howsoeuer he intrude hymselfe into the ministerie yet maye he preache the true worde of God For the truthe of the doctrine dothe not in anye respecte depende vpon the goodnesse or euilnesse of the man I praye you howe were you and some other of your adherentes called elected c But to come to the purpose They woulde proue that the Ministers of the worde in this Church of Englande are not accordyng to gods worde proued elected called or ordeyned What force and pithe is in their argumentes shall appeare in the seuerall answeres to euery one of them This one thing I muste let you vnderstande that these men seeke to deface thys Churche of Englande by the selfe same groundes that the Papistes doe althoughe by another kynde of proofe For what haue the Papistes else to saye but that we haue no Ministers bycause they be not rightly called and so consequently no worde no Sacramentes no discipline no Churche And certainely if it were well examyned I beleeue it woulde fall oute that the Authors of this Booke haue conspired with the Papistes to ouerthrowe if they coulde the state both of this Churche and Realme howsoeuer subtilly they seeme to detest Papistrie T. C. Page 23. Sect. 1 2 3. (a) Where do I 〈◊〉 that they say so Where in effecte doe they saye that the Churche of Englande is voyde of preachyng ▪ and ministring of the Sacramentes is it all one to saye that the worde in the Churche of Englande is not purely preached and the Sacramentes sincerely and discipline seuerely administred wyth thys that the Churche of Englande is voyde of all these Agayne where doe they reason thus that the worde of GOD is not truely preached bycause the Ministers are not ryghtly proued and elected when as they haue not one worde of true preachyng Is it all one to saye it is not purely preached and to saye it is not truely preached Saynte Paule to the A cauill Philipp is gladde that the Gospell be preached althoughe it be not purely but he woulde neuer haue been gladde that it should haue been preached falsely or not truely Againe he inueygheth not agaynst the false Apostles in the Churche of Corinthe bycause they preached the worde vntruely but bycause they vsyng paynted words and affected eloquence and makyng a great shewe of learnyng and tounges dyd not preache the Gospell sincerely so that you see that it is one thyng not to preache truely and an other thing not to preache purely and so you see their reason is not so euill for the want of a good calling maye gyue occasion to saye that the worde of God is not sincerely taughte bycause there is not a lawfull and ordinarie calling For althoughe for the substaunce of doctrine and the manner of handlyng of it they that Sainte Paule speaketh to of the Philipp dyd not faulte yet Saynt Paule sayth that they dyd not preache purely bycause they dyd it of contention or of enuie whyche was no faulte in the doctrine but in hym that taughte Therefore let men iudge howe iuste your wayghtes are that expounde not purely not truely and whyther thys be to confute other mens argumentes rather than to skirmishe wyth your owne shadowes I knowe no Papistes reason thus that bycause we haue no Ministers therefore no worde no Sacrament no discipline no Churche For they denie that we haue the worde or Sacramentes bycause we holde not their worde and sacrifice but if there be that so reason yet these men that you charge haue neither any such antecedent or such a consequent For they neuer sayde that there is no Ministerie in England nor yet do euer conclude that there is no word no sacraments no discipline nor Churche For in saying that the face of the Churche dothe not so muche appeare for so the whole proces of their booke dothe declare that they meane when they say that we haue not scarce the face of the Churche they graunte that we haue the Churche of God but that for wante of those ornamentes whiche it shoulde haue and throughe certayne the deformed ragges of Poperie whiche it shoulde not haue the Churche dothe not appeare in hir natiue colours and so beautifull as it is meete she shoulde be prepared to so glorious a husbande as is the sonne of God Say you certaynely and do you beleeue that the authors of this booke are conspired with the Papistes to ouerthrowe this Churche and Realme Nowe certaynely I will neuer doe that iniurie vnto them as once to goe about to purge them of so manyfest slaunders nor neuer be broughte by the outrage of your speeches to proue that nooneday is not mydnight and therefore as for you I will set your conscience and you togither The reader I will desire not to thinke it a straunge thing for it is no other than hath happened to the seruaunts of God euen from those which haue professed the same religion whiche they dyd as it appeareth in the. 37. of Ieremie whiche was accused of certayne of the Israelites
that he had conspired with the Babilonians their mortall enimyes and layd to his charge that he was goyng to them when he was going to Beniamin Io. Whitgifte Who is so blynde as he that will not sée Doe they not in plaine wordes saye That the outwarde markes whereby a true Christian Churche is knowen are preaching of the worde purely ministring the Sacramentes sincerely and Ecclesiasticall discipline c Is not their whole drifte in the Admonition to proue That neither the worde is preached purely nor the Sacramentes sincerely ministred c. in this Chnrche of Englande and what doe T. C. willuigly peruerteth the words of y e Answere I otherwyse reporte of them be not my wordes playne where doe I affirme that they shoulde saye that the Churche of Englande is voyde of preaching and ministring the Sacramentes But let the Reader consider my wordes and accordingly iudge of your plaine dealing Where I write y t they in effect say the Church of England is voyde of these I am sure you will referre these to that whiche went before that is preaching of the worde purely ministring of the Sacramentes sincerely and ecclesiasticall discipline c. neither can you otherwise doe thoughe you woulde wrest my wordes neuer so violently and therefore that which I reporte of them is that they say this Church of England neither hath the worde purely preached nor the sacramentes sincerely ministred c. I make no greate difference betwixte purely and truely neyther dothe it followe Purely and truely that the worde of God is truely preached alwayes when the truth is preached For as a man maye doe Iusta not Iustè lust thyngs and yet not iustly so maye the truthe be preached and yet not truely A man maye doe that whiche is iuste vnwittingly or for gayne or for pleasure or for malice but then he dothe it not iustly Quid non ex babitu animo Euen so a man maye preache the true worde of God of affection of contention ambition for profite c. but then he dothe not preache it truely So that your distinction betwixt purely and truely is to no purpose Neyther dothe Saint Paule helpe you anye thyng at all but is cleane centrarye 1. Phi. vers 18. vnto you for in the ▪ 18. verse of the firste Chapter to the Philip. these be hys wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ c. whych in the Bible Printed at Geneua is thus translated VVhat then yet Christe is preached all manner wayes whether it be vnder a pretence or sincerely So you sée that there is no difference made betwixte sincerely and truely for the Greeke worde signifyeth truely And Maister Beza in hys notes vpon the same Chapter and. 16. verse expoundyng 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not purely saythe thus Non pu o scilicet animo quùm alio qui pura Beza esset doctrina to weete not wyth a pure mynde seeyng that otherwyse the doctrine is pure so that these aduerbes purely and truely in this place are referred not to the doctrine but to mynde of hym that teacheth ▪ I woulde wyshe that bothe you and others woulde cease from drawyng the Scriptures to youre phantasyes and affections That this is one reason of the Papistes to proue that we are not the Churche bycause we haue no true ministerie I maruell you can be ignorant séeyng there is nothing oft er in their mouthes Whether the authors of the Admonition reason in lyke manner or no tell me when you haue well consydered these wordes of theirs in the Epistle to the Reader Eyther must we haue a right-ministery of God and a ryghte gouernment of hys Churche accordyng to the Scriptures set vp both which we lacke or eise there can be no ryghte Religion Likewise when you haue wythoute parcialitie viewed the reste of their booke Truely I thinke him to be more than blynde that séeth not thys to be theyr kynde of reasoning Their meanyng is playne and the seconde Admonition maketh it plainer howsoeuer you woulde séeme to colour and cloake the matter for what other meanyng can it haue to saye that we haue no ryghte ▪ Religion and to speake so bitterly agaynst the whole forme of the Churche and the moste of suche things as be in the same I doe beléeue certaynely that there is some Papisticall practitioners among you neyther is it straunge for so conspired they wyth the Anabaptistes also as I haue declared and the Anabaptistes hated them as muche as you and pretended the sunplicitie of the worde of God as muche as you and bothe in pretence of zeale of puritie of lyfe and other qualities for the moste parte were equall vnto you And thoughe the Prophete Ieremie were vniustly accused yet doth not that improue any thing that I haue sayde for they are not the Prophete Ieremye neither in person office or cause neither yet haue I accused them vniustly in any thing Of the election of Ministers Tract 3. Of the triall of Ministers both in learnyng and conuersation Chap. 1. the first diuision Admonition The first is this For whereas in the olde Church atrial was had (l) Acts. 1. 11. Acts. 6. 3. 1. Tim. 3. 7. 8. Tit. 1 6. both of their abilitie to enstruct and of their godly conuersation also nowe by the letters commendatorie of some one man noble or other tag and rag learned and vnlearned of the basest (m) 1. Re. 12. 31. sorte of the people to the slaunder of the Gospell in the (n) Rom. 2. 14. mouthes of the aduersaries are freely receiued Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 36. It it true that in the olde Church tryall was had of their abilitie to instruct and of their godly conuersation But the place in the margent alleaged out of the firste Chapter of the Actes of the Apostles maketh nothing for that purpose beyng therein no mention at all of any tryall made eyther of learning or maners but onely of presenting two and of praying and casting of lottes And M. Clauine in his Institutions sayth plainely that out of this place of the Actes and example there can be no certaine rule gathered of electing and chosing Ministers for as that ministerie was extraordinarie so was the calling also Reade M. Caluine and you shall soone see how little this place so ofte in the margent quoted maketh for that purpose for the which it is quoted T. C. Pag. 23. Sect. 4. 5. Pag. 24. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. It maketh for the purpose which is alleaged out of the firste of the Actes to proue that there ought to be tryall of those which are chofen to the ministerie for when S. Peter sayth that such a one must be chosen as hath bene continually conuersant with our sauiour Christ and from the beginning of his preaching vntill the day wherin he ascended into heauen he ment nothing (a) Surelye that was not so much ment as that he might be a fitte witnesse of the doyngs of
Christ and of his resurrection else but that such a one should be chosen which was sufficiently instructed and had bene continually a scholler of our sauiour Christ and therefore fit to teache and to witnesse that which they had seene and whose godly conuersation was notorionsly knowne Besides that albeit those two Mathias and Barsabas were therfore set vp in the middest that the Church in the prayer that was made for their election might by seing them pray the earnestlyer for them yet it was also as much to say that if any coulde obiect any thing against them that he should preferre his obiection And whether they were examined or s the matter is not great neyther when it is sayd that a tryall shoulde be had it is ment that when the parties are famously knowne to those which haue the right of election that there shoulde be alwayes necessarily an apposing and examining so that the sufficiencie of doctrine and holynesse of life for the which cause the tryall and examination is commaunded be knowne and agreed vpon by them that chose it is enough And so these two beyng notoriously knowen and consented of by the Churche to be fitte men myght happely not be examyned but yet the wordes of Saynt Peter declare plainely that in the choyse of them there was regarde had to both their abilitie to teache and honestie of conuersation And althoughe there be certaine things extraordinarie in thys election (b) If all these be extraordinarie what haue you left in that election as ordinary or how proue you the other to be ordinarie more than some of these as that suche a one must be chosen which had been conuersant wyth our sauiour Christ and that there were two put vp for one place and that it was permitted to lottes to cast the Apostleship vpon one of them two as if the Lorde shoulde by the lottes from heauen tell who shoulde haue it yet it followeth not to saye that the reste of the things that are there vsed should not be practised in ordinarie callings for as much they will well agree with them And Maister Caluine in the place you alleage saythe that the ordinarie callings somewhat differ from the calling of the Apostles and after sheweth wherein that is in that they were appoynted immediatly of God and by hys mouthe whereby it appeareth that for the residue of those things whych are there mentioned he holdeth that they may well stande wyth the ordinarye elections Io. Whitgifte This Replie standeth all by coniectures it is certayne that there was no triall had of them bicause they were sufficiently knowne and therefore the texte without discretion alleaged to proue that there oughte to be a tryall of theyr abilitie to instruct c. If it had bene quoted to proue that suche as were admitted into the function were méete for the same bothe sor their lyfe and doctrine it had bene to some purpose I thynke it necessarye that suche as bée admitted into the ministerie vnlesse they bée verye well knowne shoulde be tryed bothe in learning and lyfe but this place maketh nothing at all for that purpose but rather contrarie for it speaketh of suche two as were well knowne and therefore néeded no tryall so that if wée conclude any thyng of that place it muste bée this that none oughte to bée admitted into the ministerie but suche as be well knowne and néede no tryall There was no other cause of presentyng them than that whyche is expressed in the texte and it is presumption to make the Scripture serue to maynteyn oure contentions agaynste the expresse woords and playn meaning If thys be a rule to be followed it muste be followed wholly for where haue you learned to adde or take from any lawe or rule prescribed in Gods woorde or howe doe ye knowe that this example must be followed in one thing and not in an other what speciall reuelation haue you to make any suche dismembring of this action No doubte thys example is extraordinarie and not of necessitie to bée followed The woordes of M. Caluine are playne that there can be no certaine rule gathered of this example for the electing of ministers bicause the calling of the Apostles doth something differ from the calling of other ministers Chap. 1. the second Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 36. In the sixt of the Actes mention is made of Deacons only whom you will not allowe to be ministers of the worde and therfore this place serueth not your tourne neyther is there any thing spoken of any tryall but only they are willed to looke out among them seauen men of honest report and full of the holie Ghost and wisdome to be appoynted Deacons T. C. Page 24. Sect. 5. And where you saye that the sixte of the Actes bycause it speaketh of Deacons is nothyng to the mater me thynke you shoulde haue easily vnderstanded that if a tryall bee necessarie in Deacons whiche is an vnder office in the Churche and hathe regarde but to one parte of the Churche whyche is the poore and is occupied in the distribution of money muche more it ought to be in an office of greater charge whiche hath respect to the whole Churche and is occupied in the dispensyug of the holy worde of God Io. Whitgifte That there shoulde be a tryall of suche as are to be admitted to the ministerie I thinke it moste conuenient as I tolde you before excepte the parties be sufficiently known to such as haue authoritie to admit them but I say that this place of the Acts dothe not proue it both bicause the office of a Deacon by their opinion is altogether distinct from the office of a minister of the woord the one perteyning to the body the other to the soule the one occupied aboute moneye the other in the woorde and also for that there is in that place no mention made of any triall That place rather proueth that whyche before was noted A t. 1. that suche onely shoulde be appoynted to that office as bée knowne by good experience to be fitte for suche a function Tell me one worde in that texte that signifieth any such tryall as the Admonition speaketh of Therfore I say againe as I sayd before that suche as be well knowne néede no farther tryall as both that example Act. 1. and this also Act. 6. manifestly declareth Chap. 1. the third Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 36. Sect. 1. The rule of Saincte Paule in the. 1. Timo. 3. and Tit. 1. is to bee The booke of ordering ministers iustified concerning examination folowed And the booke of ordring ministers and deacons set forth and allowed by this Church of England requireth that whosoeuer is to be admitted into the order of the ministerie should so be tried examined and proued both for learning and life as S. Paule there requireth Reade the booke with indifferencie and iudgement and thou canst not but greatly commend it If any man neglect his dutie in
that point his fault must not be ascribed to the rule appointed neither yet to the whole Church Is the law euill bicause some lawyers Wickednes of men causeth not lawes to be euill in their office swarue frō it This is fallation à nō causa ad causā T. C. Pag. 24 Sect. 6. But in the ende you agree that they should be tryed so that nowe the question standeth only howe and by what meanes wherin you for your part say that the booke of ordering ministers is a sufficient and good rule I haue read it and yet I can not commende it greately But you will say not with indgement or iudifferencie I will promise you with this indifferencie that I wished that all that is there were good and conuenient and such as I might saye vnto so bee it With what iudgement I doe disallowe it I leaue it to all men to esteeme vpon these reasons Io. Whitgifte The question is not whether you allowe or disallowe that booke neither is it materiall whether you doe or not Your reasons vsed against it I will seuerally for memorie sake examine Chap. 1. the fourth Diuision T. C. Pag. 24. Sect. 7. 8. 9. Fyrst that the examination of hys doctrine wholly and partely of hys lyfe is permitted to The reasons of T. C. against the booke of ordering ministers one man For consyderyng of the one parte the greatnesse of the charge that is committed vnto the ministers and the horrible pe ill that commeth vnto the Church by the want of those things that are required in them and of the other parte weighyng the weaknesse of the nature of man whyche although he seeth many things yet is he blynd also in many and that euen in those things whiche he seeth he suffereth himselfe to be caryed away by his affection of loue or of enuie c. I saye consydering these things it is verye daungerous to committe that to the vewe and search of one man whyche maye with lesse danger and more safetie be referred vnto dyuers For herein Manie eye see more 〈◊〉 one the prouerbe is true Plus vident oculi quam oculus And almoste there is no office of charge in this realme whych lyeth in election committed so 〈◊〉 to any as that vpon one mannes reporte of hys habilitie all the rest whych haue interest in the election will giue their voyces so that if we were destitute of authoritie of the scripture the verie lyghte of reason woulde shewe vs a more safe and waryer way But there is greater authoritie for S. Luke in the fyrst of the Actes sheweth that Sainc e Peter woulde not take vpon him to presente two as fitte for the place whiche was voyde but sayth they did present or set vp wherby appeareth that the examinatiō of their abilitie was comitted to many The same apeareth also in the. 6. of the Acts when as the Apostles will y e Church wherin there wer so excellent personages to loke out seuen full of the holy ghost wisedome c. They doe not there permitte the discernyng of theyr wysedome and other gyftes to one but to manye Io. Whitgifte Youre fyrste reason is partely grounded ppon bare coniectures or rather The first 〈◊〉 son of T. C. hath either a weake or a false ground common suppositions that maye be supposed in the moste perfecte gouernment partely vppon the place Acto 1. eyther not vnderstoode or wyllingly miscon rued nothyng perteyning to the purpose But fyrste it is vntrue that the exa ination eyther of doctrine or lyfe is in thys Churche wholly committed to one man For the Booke committeth the examination of suche as are to bée admitted into the ministerie not onely to the Byshop but to the Archedeacon also to the Bishoppe in the begynnyng of the Beoke by playne and expresse woordes to the Arched acon bycause he muste presente them vnto the Bishoppe of hys knowledge whiche he ran not doe truely withoute diligente examination But admitte it bée so that the examination is committed to one man onely what then For soothe consyderyng on the one parte the greatnesse of the charge c. and of the other parte the weakenesse of the nature of man c. it is more daungerous to committe that to the vewe of one man c. If you respecte the greatenesse of the charge that is committed to ministsrs The Byshop most meete to haue the examination c. Who is better able to consyder thereof than the Byshoppe whyche bothe knoweth what suche a charge meaneth and hathe hadde hymselfe long experience thereof To whome also dyuerse seuerall charges doe apperteyn for the whyche it behoueth hym to foresée that there bée méete ministers If you speake of blynde affections as loue enuie c. who maye bée supposed to bée more voyde of them than hée that is called to suche an hyghe office in the Churche that is so well instructed in the Scriptures of so long tyme knowne bothe for hys lyfe learnyng Religion and wysedome méete to haue that credite commytted vnto hym Surely if anye one man or moe bée voyde of suche affections and bée thoughte méete to haue suche matters commytted vnto hym it is the Byshoppe And if hée bée méete and woorthye for that place and offyce then maye he also bée safely credyted wyth all thynges incidente vnto the same But what haue you here sayde agaynste one man in thys case that may not bée lykewyse sayde of an other man in all other lyke cases agaynste one Kyng one Iudge yea agaynste manie euen the whole multitude in whome not onely lacke of knoweledge and discretion in suche matters but greate abundaunce of affections of wrathe of hatred of loue of feare of contention c. for the moste parte reygneth as experience of all tymes and places declareth But of thys matter occasion will be ministred to speake more hereafter The prouerbe Plus vident oculi quam oculus Manie eyes see more than one is not alwayes nor in all cases true one man of wysedome experience learnyng and discretion maye sée more knowe more and iudge better in those thynges that hée can skyll of than ten thousande other that bée ignorant or that in such matters bée farre inferiour vnto him You saye that almoste the is no office of charge in thys Realme c. whyche is not so for the offices of greatest importaunce and charge in the whole Realme both in the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill state are in the onely Election of the Prince and they bée beste bestowed and vppon the méetest and woorthyest persones Those offices that bée commytted to the v yces of manie eyther are bestowed of custome or at the entreatie of some in authoritie or by extreame suite and laboure made by some parties or else is there greate contention stirred vp aboute them by some busie bodies And in déede when are there more vnwoorthye men chosen to offices when is there more stryfe and contention aboute elections
when doe partiall and sinister affections more vtter themselues than when an election is committed to manie And where as you say that vpon one mannes reporte all the rest whyche haue interest in the election woulde not gyue theyr voyces so sieyghtly to any Experience teacheth you cleane contrarie for doe you not sée that in all suche Elections for the moste parte some one man ruleth the reste Moreouer where is the requeste of suche as bée in authoritie for any denyed in suche elections I coulde bring you a number of examples If the Election of the minister shoulde bée commytted to euery seuerall Parish doe you thynke that they woulde choose the méetest shoulde not the Lorde of the towne or some other among them of countenaunce leade them as he liste woulde they haue no respecte to theyr neyghboures chyldren thoughe not the méetest wōulde there be no contention among them would they not haue lyke people lyke Pastoure But of thys also more muste bée spoken in an other place That in the fyrste of the Actes is nothyng for youre purpose for there is no order of Election prescribed but an extraordinarie callyng to an extraordinarie office as I haue sayde before Neyther dydde the multitude presente them but onely the Apostles as M. Beza sayeth Lib. conf cap. 5. titu 35. Neyther were they examyned as is also declared and therefore that place altogether impertinent To that in the sixte of the Actes I haue answered sufficientely it proueth not examination And M. Beza in the aforenamed booke and Chapter sayeth plainly that Luke hathe not sette downe what the Churche did obserue in the election of Deacons and shortely after concludeth thus Certam igitur regulam non est quòd nimiùm curiosè quisquam hic praescribae sed si recta fuerit conscientia facilè fuerit pro temporum Beza lib. eonf cap. 5. locorum circumstantia definire quid expediat Therefore there is no cause why anye man shoulde here ouer-curiously prescribe anye certayne rule But if the conscience be vpryght it may be easy to determine what is conuenient for the circumstance of tyme and place And these woordes he speaketh of that place of the Actes But I The elections Act. 1. Act. 6. do nothing agree praye you answere mée this one question if you will make these two places Act. 1 Act. 6. rules whiche wée muste of necessitie follow in electing of ministers howe will you ioyne them together béeyng in nothyng lyke for Acto 1. the Apostles presented two to the people Acto 6. The whole multitude did present seuen to the Apostles Acto 1. they caste lottes Acto 6. they layde on handes Acto 1. they prayed to God to shewe whether of the two he had chosen Acto 6. there is no suche thyng Acto 1. of two that were presented one was chosen Acto 6. all were chosen that were presented so that there is great difference in the two places and therefore no prescript rules for vs to follow Chap. 1. the fy fte Diuision T. C. Page 24. Sect. vlt. Secondaryly I can not commende it for that that one man is the Archedeacon whiche muste examine the Pastors and iudge of their sufficiencie For what is the Archdeacon is he not a Deacon for he beyng the chiefe Deacon muste needes be also a Deacon himself And therfore although the chiefe Deacon yet inferiour to any of the Pastours and the * gyfts whych are 1. Tim. 3. requyred in him inferioure to those whiche are required in the Pastour and so to make hym iudge of the aptnesse and ablenes of the Pastor is to make the inferiour in giftes iudge of the superiour he that hathe by his calling lesse gyftes iudge of his which hath by his calling greate gifts which is nothyng else than to appoynte hym that hath but one eye to ouersee his syght that hath two Io. Whitgifte You will not stand in this reason I think when you haue somthing better remēbred T. C. reasoneth against himselfe your self wil you not haue the Archdeacon bicause he is but a deacon examine the Pastors and iudge of thier sufficiencie do you think y t bicause he is inferior to y e pastors the gifts requyred in hym inferioure to those whyche are required of the Pastours ▪ therefore hée is not méete to examine the Pastor and to iudge of his aptnesse What greater argument can be vsed agaynst your selfe for if this be true how can the people examine the pastors or iudge of their aptnesse being farre inferiour to Deacons in respecte of their office and in giftes not lyke vnto them or howe can you admitte your Seniors to the examination or allowing of them not onely béeing inferiour in office and calling but in giftes also yea the moste of them rude and ignorant for suche Seniors you must of necessitie haue if you wil haue any Surely I maruel that you haue so much forgotten your selfe A Deacon is superiour to the people yea to youre Seniors though you denie it and mo giftes required in him than in both the other 1. Tim. 3. Wherefore if he be not méete to examine pastors and iudge of their sufficiencie bicause that were to make the inferior in giftes to iudge of the superior c. much lesse are the people and your Seniors able to be examiners and iudges in that matter Furthermore if none must examine and iudge of the Pastor but suche as be superior or at the least equall vnto him and suche in whom moe or as many giftes are required then truly I sée not to whom this office may more orderly or safely be committed than to the Bishop who is superiour to the Pastour bothe in office and also in giftes It is not true that the booke committeth the examination of ministers onely to the Archdeacons or especially it is otherwise in the beginning of the booke in plaine words Your reason wherby you would proue an Archdeacon to be only a deacon is no reason at all for what sequele is there in this argument an Archdeacon is the chief deacon Ergo he is only a Deacon as thoughe you were ignorant of the state of oure Church and knew not that Archdeacons may be also ministers of the worde Chap. 1. the sixt Diuision T. C. Pag. 25. Sect. 1. Thirdly I mislyke the booke bicause it permitteth y e the Bishop may admit the minister vpon the credit report of the Archdeacon and vpon his examination if ther be no opposition of the people which appereth by these words in the booke wheras to the Archdeacon saying thus Reuerend father in God I present vnto you these persons to be admitted to be Priests c. The bishop answereth Take heed that y e persons whom you present vnto vs be apt meet for their godly cōuersation to exercise their ministerie duly to the honor of God edifying of his church And thervpō I think it commeth that the Archdeacon is called the eye
lawes for himselfe but for vs mighte call S. Peter also to that function which had thrice denyed him But as it is not lawfull for vs to follow the example of Christ in calling of Paule by admitting those which are new conuerted hauing a contrary precepte giuen that no * new plant or greene 1. Tim. 3. Christian should be taken to y e Ministerie So is it not lawfull also to follow that example of our Sauiour Christ the contrarie beyng commaunded as I haue before alleaged For albeit the examples of our Sauiour Christ be to be followed of vs yet if there be commaundtmentes generall to the contrarie then we must know that it is our partes to walke in the broade and beaten way as it were the common caussie of the commaundement rather than an outpath of the example Io. Whitgifte Peter hauing before bragged of his constancie lately admonished by his Maister Christ almost euē in y e presence of his master wittingly willingly denyed not once but thrice yea bitterly forswore him which fault no doubt was as gréeuous as any kind of Idolatrie and therfore if you stand with me in that matter neuer so long you can not greatly trouble me for the circumstances beyng considered there is nothing to exeuse Peters denyall As Christ in the heate of Paules persecution dyd choose him to be an Apostle and called Peter also to that function after he had thrice denyed him euen so doth he still continue his mercie neither is it one whit streightened and these examples hath he set before vs that we should at no time dispaire of his mercy and goodnesse so saith S. Paule 1. Tim. 1. Verùm ideò misericordiam consecutus sum c. Notwithstanding for this cause was I 1. Tim. 1. receiued to mercie that Iesus Christ should first shewe on me al long suffering vnto the example of them which shall in time to come beleeue in him vnto eternall lyfe Although these examples of our sauiour Christ are not at all times in al poyntes to be followed yet doe they sufficiently declare that no man for any crime is to be secluded from any lawfull vocation if he repent him and become a new man And there be no generall commaundements contrarie herevnto but this doctrine is consonant to the whole course of the Gospell Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 27. Sect. 2. I know Ambrose was taken newly from Paganisine to be Bishop of Millaine for the greate T. C. picketh a quarrell to de praue Ambrose out of place and vniustly estimation and credite he had amongst the people but besides that I haue shewed that such things are vnlawfull being forbidden the errors corrupt expounding of scriptures which are found in his works declare that it had bene more safe for the Church if by studie of the scriptures he had firste bene a scholer of diuinitie or euer he had bene made Doctor Io. Whitgifte You néeded not to haue wyped away the example of Ambrose with so much disgracing of him being so worthy a man and so learned a father for thoughe he were not christened when he was chosen Bishop yet had he long before that time professed the name of Christ and was soundly grounded in Religion for in those dayes many did long differre the time of Baptisme after the time of their conuersion And S. Paule 1. Tim. 3. by his greene Christian as you terme him doth vnderstande such as be newly conuerted Ambrose was a man of notable learning and singularly commended in all histories that make any mention of him his errors be not so many nor his expositions so simple that you should so contemptuously write of him Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Page 27. Sect. 2. here maye be more examples shewed out of that which you call the Primitiue Church to the 〈◊〉 of that which you say For whē they vsed oftentimes against those that had so faine such seueritie in deede extreme and excessiue that they were neuer after vntill their deathes admitted to the Lords table I leaue to you to thinke whether they woulde then suffer any suche to execute the function of the ministerie Besides that S. Cyprian hathe also a speciall treatise of this that those that haue sacrificed to Idols should not be permitted any more to minister in the Church in the first booke of his Epist. Epistle vij Io. Whitgifte It appeareth in that 7. Epistle of Cyprian that he ment of such as after they had sacrificed to Idols toke their ministerie againe vpon them without any signification or shewe of repentance but rather iustifying or at the least excusing their former facte And that this was Cypriās meaning it may be gathered by these words in the same Cypri lib. Epist. 7. Epistle which he speaketh to the people to whom he writ touching Fortunatianus who hauing sacrificed to Idols would haue againe resumed his ministerie Ergo contumaces deum non timentes ab ecclesia in totum recedentes nemo comitetur Quòd si quis impatiens fuerit ad deprecandum dominum qui offensus est nobis obtemperare noluerit sed desperatos perditos secutus fuerit sibi imputabit cum iudicij dies venerit VVherfore let no man kepe companie with those which are stubborne not fearing God wholy depart from the Church But if any will not aske forgiuenesse at the Lord which is offended and will not obey vs but will needes followe them which are disperate and paste hope he shall laye the blame on none but on him selfe at the day of iudgement Wherby it is plaine that Cypriā ment such as had wholy departed from the Church and were desperate in wickednesse It is manifest that in Cyprians time those that did offend in such crimes afterwardes repented were appointed a time of publique repentance according to the qualitie of the fault committed and vntill that time was expired they were not admitted vnto the Lordes table except onely at the poynt of death But I graunt that there was extreme seueritie in Cyprians time shewed to suche as had fallen in the time of pesecution and that it euidently appeareth in other of his Epistles that such were no more admitted to the ministerie But this law was made by Cyprian and others as it is euident Lib. 2. Epist. 1. in that Councell of Carthage where it was also concluded that such as were baptized of heretikes should be rebaptized and therfore of the lesse force séeing that that whole Councell is for inst causes reiected Chap. 2. the sixte Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 39. Sect. 2. 3. I pray you what say you to M. Luther Bucer Cranmer Latimer Ridley c. were not al these sometimes Massemongers and yet singular and notable instrumentes of promoting the Gospell and preaching the same wherof many haue giuen testimonie by sheding their bloud And by whose Ministerie especially hathe the Gospell bene published and is as yet in this
Why the com panions of Paule were chosen by consent for the auoyding of suspicion of priuate gayne or corrupt dealing that such as shoulde haue to do in gathering and distributing almes shoulde be chosen by a common consent and it is manifest that it was Paules owne request to haue them in this businesse by the consent of the Churches ioyned with him for the stopping of the mouths of such as would otherwise haue bin ready to suspect Paules integritie in that money matter and that this is true these words declare declinantes boc nè quis nos carpat in bat 2. Cor. 8. exuber antia quae administratur à nobis procurantes bonesta c. Auoyding this that no man should blame vs in this abundance that is ministred by vs prouiding for honest things not only before the Lord but also before men as though he would say therefore haue I procured that by the consent of the Churches some might be ioyned with me in this collection least any man should take occasion to suspecte me of corrupt dealing or to report that in this businesse I robbed the Church to enrich my selfe Now therefore how any thing can be gathered of this place to proue that ministers of the word ought to be chosen by a common consent of the people let the reader iudge Paule might haue chosen thē himselfe if he would but he desired the Churches to choose them that his vpright dealing in collecting and distributing of the almes might not be brought into suspicion as I haue said before And therefore an Archbishop may dare take vpon him to make a minister of the Gospell c. for any thing that is in this place to the contrary In déede if an Archbishop should be appoynted to collecte and to distribute almes then were it fitte for his owne credite sake and to auoyde the slaunderous speaches of those that be quarrelous that he should desire some to be ioyned with him by the common consent of those of whome he should collect And this is the only thing that may be gathered of this place touching any election It is vntrue that in the first of the Acts the Church did first choose those two that stoode in the electiō for the Apostleship the Apostles only did propound them to the church as M. Beza truly saith in these words apparet cum eligendus esset qui in Iudae proditoris locum Beza li. confe cap. 5. succederet fuisse multitudini propositos ab Apostolis eos quos maximè idoneos censebant It appeareth when he was to be chosen which should succeede in the roome of Iudas the traytoure that they were propounded vnto the multitude by the Apostles whom they thought most meete Neyther were the Apostles chosen by men but immediatly by God as al writers confesse whiche was the cause why matthias was there chosen by lot and not by the voyces of men Why in the Apostles time it was conuenient to require the consent of the people in some things and yet not conuenient now so to do is declared afterwards Chapter 4. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 43. Sect. vlt. I do not denie but in the Apostles time and after euē to Cyprians The consent of the people vnto Cyprians time time the peoples consente was in many places required in the appoynting of ministers T. C. Page 31. Sect. vlt. Pag. 32. Sect. 1. You will not denie but that in the Apostles time and S. Cyprians time in many places the consent of the people was required shew any one place where it was not Doth not S. Luke say that it was done Church by Church that is in euery Churche And where you say it endured (*) An vntruth for I say not but to Cyprias time but to S. Cyprians time it shall appeare to all men that it endured in the Church a thousand yeares and more after his time and it appeareth in the. 4. epistle of his first booke that he vsed it not as a thing indifferent but necessary and argueth the necessitie of it of the place of the first of the Acts which is alledged by the authours of the Admonition And so they are not their argumentes that you throwe vp so scornefully saying how followeth this and this what proueth it but Cyprians whome by their sides you thrust through and so vnreuerently handle Io. Whitgifte You bid me shew any one place where the consent of the people was not required in electing of ministers in the Apostles or in Cyprians time I might rather aske you this question Election of ministers by the people not general in the Apostls time especially of the Apostles time and bid you shewe vnto me any one place that directly proueth the consent of the people to haue bin required in the election of the ministers of the word In the first of the Acts the Apostles propounded two and the election was not by voice but by lot In the. 14. of the Acts it is playne that Paule and Barnabas did choose the ministers of the word S. Paule saith to Timothie 1. Ti. 5. 1. Tim. 5. Tit. 1. 〈◊〉 manus citò ne cui imponas lay hands on no man sodainely And to Titus Chap. 1. that for this cause he left him at Creta c. That he should ordeyne elders in euery citie To be shorte Christe himselfe alone withoute the consente of any other appoynted his Apostles Shew you me the like euident places for your purpose if you can The 6. of the Acts is but of Deacons who bycause they were occupyed about mouey Why Deacons were chosen by com mon consente Act. 6. 2. Cor. 8. matters and collecting and distributing of almes it was méete that they shoulde bée chosen by a common consente to auoyde the grudging of the people that gaue almes and the suspicion of others as the place it selfe doth manifestly declare Acts. 6. There arose a murmuring of the Graecians towards the Hebrues bycause their widdowes were neglected in the dayly ministring c. The. 2. Cor. 8. is to the like effecte whereof I haue spoken sufficientely There onelye remayneth too helpe you thys word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which I haue proued not of necessitie to signify in the scripture any election by the people excepte there be some other word added vnto it to expresse the same as there is 2. Cor. 8. and therefore my assertion is grounded vpon the playne and euident places of the scriptures yours vpon likelyhoods and coniectures onely And if it were as lawfull for me to alledge the Canons attributed to the Apostles as it is for you who haue alledged them in sundry places then could I tell you out of them also that the electing of ministers by the people was not generall at that time Cano. Apo. 36. as it may be gathered out of the. 36. Canon If you will beléeùe Eusebius li. 2. eccle histo cap. 23. or Zuinglius in his eccles
you shall Euseb. Zuinglius find that the Apostles did appoint and ordeyne Iames to be Byshop of Nierusalem But I will not now stand vpon this matter I shal haue more occasion to speake of it hereafter in the meane time this whiche I haue saide is sufficient to satisfie your request for the Apostles time Touching that of Luke that it was done Church by Church if you meane the ordering of ministers by Paule and Barnabas it is answered before where I haue shewed that it maketh againste you if you vnderstande by euery Church those Churches where Paule and Barnabas were togither then do you expound Church by Church well else not But this is not materiall Election of ministers by the people not generall in th 〈◊〉 of Cyprian Now that the electing of ministers by the people was not generall in Cyprians time I proue by Cyprians owne words li. 1. epist. 4. where he speaking of electing by the people saith quod apud nos quoque ferè per prouincias vniuersas tenetur which also is obserued with vs and almost throughout all prouinces c. In that he saith it was almost in euery prouince he playnly signifyeth that there were some prouinces wherein this Cyprian 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 4. manner and forme of electing was not vsed When I say that the consente of the people was required in many places euen to Cyprians time I do not denie but that it was also required after Cyprians time neither do I speake any otherwise in that poynt than Musculus Musculus hath spoken in his common places ti de verbi ministris where he saithe thus haec forma electionis ad Cypriani vsquè tempora in ecclesijs durauit c. This forme of election remayned in the Churches vntill Cyprians time I knowe it was both before and after Cyprians time in many places but that is not the question for it partly is and shall more at large hereafter be declared that it was also otherwise both before and after Cyprians time but our question is whether it ought to be so at all times or no at this time especially in this Church of England You say it appeareth that Cyprian in his 4. epistl of his 1. Booke vseth it not as a thing indifferente c. Surely if Cyprians wordes be well considered you will be founde not The place of 〈◊〉 examined to haue reported truly of him for he with other Bishops answering the 〈◊〉 that was demaunded of them touching Martialis and Basilides whether seeing they were conuicted of heynous crimes they might still enioy their office and minister vnto the Lord first declareth out of Exod. 19. Leui. 21. c. of what integritie and holynesse those ought to be that serue the altar and celebrate diuine sacrifices Likewise they shew that such precepts must be obeyed and héede taken that none be chosen into the ministerie but suche as be blamelesse signifying by the way how greatly that people doth offend that doth communicate with a sinfull priest and consenteth to the vniust and vnlawfull office of him that is placed ouer them shewing out of the Prophet Osee and the booke of numbers what punishment is due vnto them that be contaminated with the sacrifice of a prophane and vnlawfull priest where vpon he bringeth in these words propter quod plebs obseque s praeceptis dominicis deum metuens a peccatore praeposito separare se debet nec se ad sacrilegi sacerdotis sacrificia miscere cum ipsa maximè habeat potestatem vel eligendi dignos sacerdotes vel indignos recusandi Quod ipsum videmus de diuina authoritate discendere vt sacerdos plebe praesente sub omnium oculis deligatur dignus atquè idoneus publico iudicio ac testimonio comprobetur c. For which cause the people obeying the commaundementes of the Lorde and fearing God ought to separate themselues from a wicked gouernoure not to cōmunicate in the sacrifices of a wicked priest for so much as they especially haue authoritie either to choose those priests which be worthy or else to refuse them which are vnwoorthy The whiche thing also we see to proceede of the authoritie of God that the priest should be chosen before the face of all the people being present and that he which is sit and worthy should by the publique iudgement and testimonie be approued as the Lord commaunded Moses in the booke of numbers saying take Aaron thy brother and Eleazer his sonne for Aaron shall be gathered to his fathers and shall dye there God commaunded the priest to be appointed before the whole sinagogue that is he declareth that the ordering of priests ought not to be but sub populi 〈◊〉 is conscientia by the knowledge of the people standing by that the people being present vel detegātur malorum crimina vel bonorum merita praedicentur c. either the faults of euil mē might be bewrayed or the desertes of those whiche are good might be commended and that that ordering might be iust and lawfull which shall be examined by the voices and iudgement of all VVhich thing was afterward obserued according to the rule of God when as Peter spake vnto the people concerning the choosing of a bishop into the place of Iudas Where the words of Cyprian and the other Bishops be plaine that the ordering of ministers ought to be in the presence of the people to the intent they may obiect any thing against them if they can but not that it ought to be by their voyces and election the which the example that he vseth of Eleazer Num. 20. and the words that he reciteth out of the first of the Acts plainly declare for though Eleazer was placed in Aarons roome in the presence of the people yet had they no voyces in hys election No more had they in the election of Matthias though it were in theyr presence That also whiche followeth in the same epistle dothe proue this to be their true meaning for alittle after it is said propter quod diligenter de traditione diuina c. VVherfore it ought diligently to be obserued and holden as proceeding from the tradition of God and the obseruation of the Apostles the which also is reteyned almost thoroughout all prouinces that to the intent orders should be rightly celebrated all the next Byshops of the same prouince should assemble vnto that people to whome a gouernoure is to be appointed and that the Byshop should be chosen in the presence of the people which dothe fully know the life of euery one c. so that Cyprians meaning is to haue the people present at the ordering of ministers that if they know any crime in them they may obiect it if not with their silence allow of the parties for as the law saith ta iturnitas pro consensu habetur silence is taken for a consent And to this purpose serue the places that he vseth Numer 20. Act. 1. and
for it behoued the Apostles to be chosen immediatly of God In the election of Deacons Luke hath not set downe what the Church did obserue But in another place we may gather by Paule that they of Asia vsed the holding vp of hands which manner was vsuall with the most of the Graecians wherefore there is no cause why any man should ouercuriously prescribe here any certaine rule c. Now to reherse what varietie hath bin vsed in the Churches touching this election Uarietie vsed in the electiōs in y e pr tiue Churches Caluine were néedelesse it shall be sufficient only to set downe that which M. Caluine speaketh of it in his Insti cap. 8. Sect. 60. c. wher first he declareth that the rule of S. Paule touching the qualities of a minister is to be obserued and that he is to be examined according to the same Then doth he shew how that there hath not always one order bin obserued touching the electours and appointers for sometimes none was chosen without the consent of the whole people and other sometimes the people committed the choise to the Bishop and ministers or Seniors except it were in the election of the Bishop And sometimes onely the ministers did first choose and then offer those whome they had chosen to the magistrate or to the Senat or to the chiefe rulers who ratifyed the election if they liked it if not then did they choose out other c. This varietie of electing ministers doth M. Caluine declare in that place It appeareth in the. 35. or as some counteth 36. of the canons attributed to the Apostles Can. Apost 36 that Bishops were not then chosen by the consent of the people for that canon speaketh of such Byshops as being appoynted to some Church were not receyued by the people and yet remayned Bishops still To the like effect is the. 18. can Con. Ancyra Con Ancyr can 18. Con. Antioch can 17. 18. Con Laodic can 12. Can. 13. T. C. seeketh a commaundement in the Ceremoniall law for the election of the ministers of the Gospell The place Numbers 8. proueth not his purpose and the. 17. and. 18. of the Councell of Antioch In the. 12. Canon of the Councell of Laodicea it is decréed that the Metropolitane with other Byshops adioyning should haue the election of Byshops and of such as are to be preferred to a cure And the. 13. Can. of the same councell doth forbid that the elections of ministers should be committed to the people So that you sée your manner of electing by the people not to haue bin in all Churches in all purer times It appeareth that you were put to a pinch for a commaundement to establish your manner and kind of electing ministers when you are constrayned to fetch one out of the booke of Numbers and that nothing at all perteyning to your purpose For what one word is there in that place that hath any shadow of your election First the people there did not elect the Leuits Secondly they laid their hands vpon them which I am sure you will not haue the people to do in the ordeyning of Byshops for you say that only elders and ministers vsed to lay on their hands So that this place of the Booke of Numbers doth commaund that whiche you will not admitte and speaketh not one word of that for the which you do alledge it But tell me in good earnest will you bind vs to the obseruation of the Ceremonial law also as you haue done before to the iudiciall For what else is there in that whole chapter but lawes touching ceremonies and in that place by you alleadged especially for there he speaketh of the manner of purifying of the Leuites and of their offering he speaketh not of any election For God himselfe had chosen the Leuites before for the first borne of the children of Israell cap. 3. I would to God men would but indifferently consider how vndiscréetely you alleadge the scriptures lest you should séeme to be voyde of scripture You say the people by laying on their hands did by that ceremonie consecrate them Would you haue the people to consecrate ministers by laying on of hands do you not care what absurdities and contrarieties you speake you make a distinction in that whiche followeth betwixte ordeyning electing and you say that election perteyneth to the people ordeyning to the Bishop Pag. 40. lin vlt. c. Pag. 31. sect 4. And in another place that the imposition of handes was not by the Churche and people but by the Elders and Ministers But if this be a commaundement for vs now to obserue then must you recant that saying I doe admitte this Scripture as a portion of the Ceremoniall lawe but I doe not The dealings of T. C. tend to Iudaisme admit it as a perpetuall commaundement bicause I knowe the Ceremoniall lawe is abrogated excepte you will haue all those Ceremonies whiche were vsed in that place and are conteyned in the same commaundement as of sprinkling them with water of shauing their bodies of washing their clothes of laying their handes on the heads of bullocks c. practized in ordering ministers of the Gospel Neither is this any title of Catabaptistrie but yours smelleth of Iudaisme for you bounde vs before to the Iudiciall law and now you will bind vs to the Ceremoniall also what remayneth but to say that Christ is not yet come Circumcision is a figure of baptisme but the Leuiticall priesthoode is no figure of the ministerie of the Gospell therfore we may well proue the baptizing of Infantes by circumcision but we can not proue the ordering of ministers of the Gospell by the ceremonies vsed about the Leuites Those examples of the Apostles doe well proue the baptizing of children bicause Gene. 17. Mat. 28. they be grounded vpon these generall places of the Scriptures Ego sum Deus tuus c. I am thy God and the God of thy seede c. and Mat. 28. Baptizantes omnes gentes Baptizing all nations The contention is not whether discipline c. be necessarie but whether one kinde be necessarie Of discipline also and gouernment I haue something spoken before and minde to speake hereafter when further occasion is offered in this place it is answere sufficient to say that the contention is not whether discipline or gouernment be necessarie in the Churche or no but whether this or that kinde of discipline and gouernment be necessarie and whether there be one certayne kinde and forme of discipline and gouernment to be vsed in the Churche at all times and in all places As for Pastors Bishops Doctors Deacons c. they be necessarie ministers in the Churche but it doth not therfore follow that there must be alwayes one kinde and forme of gouernment Chap. 4. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Sect. 1. And I adde that howsoeuer in the Apostles time that kinde of electing and calling
husbandeman good Mat. 13. Mat. 22. Mat. 7. corne and for one that profitably heareth the word of God thrée doe the contrary as the parable of the sower declareth There be many called but fewe chosen And the gate is wyde that leadeth to perdition therefore it is no discredite to the Gospell or to the preaching thereof nor yet to the good gouernment of the Church to haue many wicked and vngodly persons which cannot possible be rooted out vntill the time of Harnest but this hath béen alwayes an Anabaptisticall cauill against the true Church of Christ and lawfull gouernment thereof as Bullinger declareth Lib. aduersus Anabap. Bullinger And vndoubtedly if this were a good argument to proue that the Gospell is not preached sincerely then Esai Ieremie and other of the Prophetes which had preached among the people many yeares and smally preuayled with them either concerning doctrine or manners preached not sincerely Wheras you say that in the Church of Christ there be no drunkards or whoremongers at the least which are knowne c. either doe you greatly ouershoote your selfe and forget the great crimes that were knowne to be in the Church of Corinthe or else woulde you secretly bring in the error of the Anabaptistes which say that not to be the true Church of Christ in the which there appeareth manifest crymes for the declaration of the A branch of Anabaptisme which error and confutation also I referre you to the thirde booke of Bul ▪ aduersus Anabap and the. 2. and. 3. chapter where you may likewise learne what profite hath cenie to this and the like Churches where the Gospell is professed by the preaching of the word though many wicked still remaine in the same I graunt you that these vyces when they be knowne ought to be punished But if eyther bycause those that be in authoritie doe not their duetie therein or else those vices continue notwithstanding therfore you will conclude that this is not the Church of Christ I tell you plainely that you haue already entred into one branche of Anabaptisme It cannot be denyed but that the euill are continually mirt with the good in thys world euen in the most purest Church and that then they abound especially when the Gospell is in prosperitie so that this is a good cause why the election of ministers may not safely be committed to the common people Chap. 6. the third Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Sect 4. Thirdly in the Apostles time all that professed Christ had knowledge The people now ignorant and not able to iudge and wereable to iudge who were meete to be theyr pastour Nowe the most be ignorant and wythout iudgement in suche matters T. C ▪ Pag. 34. Sect. 2. If they had knowledge then it was bycause they were taughte and that they are ignorant You make a digression and answere not the reason nowe it is bycause they haue no good ministers to teache them and if the Churches should choose their ministers I am sure they could not choose worse than for the most part they haue nowe being thrust vpon them Io. Whitgifte They were then diligently taughte and they gaue them selues wholy to learne bycause it was a time of persecution in the which men be commonly beste disposed and sequestred as it were from all worldly cares lookyng continually to fall into the handes of the persecutors nowe thoughe they be in diuerse places well taught yet bycause they haue not suche a sense and féeling of the worde in the tyme of prosperitie as they haue vnder the crosse when the Churche of Christe is purest the election of theyr Ministers can not be so safely committed vnto them nowe as it myghte be then But why haue you not answered my reason for as yet that is vntouched Chap. 6. the fourth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 45. Sect. 1. Fourthly in the Apostles tyme there was in the Churche no Idolaters The churche now full of Papistes and Atheistes c. no superstitious persons no Papistes nowe the Church is full of Papistes Atheistes and suche lyke who seeth not therfore what straunge ministers we should haue if the election of thē were committed to their seuerall parishes T. C. Pag. 34. Sect. 3. I see that when a man is out of his waye the further he goeth the worse Before you placed in the churche whoremongers and drunkardes as filthie swine in the Lordes courtes nowe you bryng in Papistes Idolaters and Atheistes whyche are not onely filthie but also poysoned and venomed beastes I am not ignorant of that distinction whyche sayth that there be in the Churche whiche are not of the Churche and those are Hypocrites as is before sayde but I woulde gladly learne of you what Scripture there is to proue that Idolaters and Papistes and Atheistes are in the Churche when Saynte Paule (a) The place is not rightly vn calleth all suche without the churche and wyth whome the Churche hathe nothyng to doe nor they with the churche you mighte as well haue placed in the churche Wolues Tigers Lions and Beares that is tyrants and persecutors For those ye speake of and in the iudgement of men and of the churche as well shut oute of it as they in the eye of the Lorde they maye be of the churche and so maye and are sometymes the persecutors them selues so that the election of the churche is not nor oughte not to be hyndered by those that haue nothyng to doe wyth it But nowe I heare you aske me what then shall become of the Papistes and Atheistes if you will not haue them be of the churche I answere that they may (b) This is true in the common wealth of the Turke but not in this common wealth be of and in the common wealth whiche neyther may nor can be of nor in the churche And therefore the churche hauing nothyng to doe with suche the Magistrate (c) Where finde you this ought ▪ oughte to see that they ioyne to heare the Sermons in the place where they are made whether it be in those parishes where there is a churche and so preaching or where else he shall thinke beste and cause them to be examined howe they profitte and if they profit not to punishe them and as their contempt groweth so to encrease the punishment vntill suche tymes as they declare manifest tokens of vn epentantnesse and then as rotten members that doe not onely no good nor seruice in the body but also corrupt and infect others cut them off And if they do profit in hearing then to be adioyned vnto that church which is next the place of their dwelling Io. Whitgifte How Papist c. be in the Church You muste of necessitie admitte this distinction some be of the Church and some be only in the Church else can you not make any visible Church for we only know who be in the Churche but who be of the Churche is knowne
to him alone who knoweth those that be his If they communicate with vs in hearing the worde and receyuing the Sacramentes thoughe otherwyse they be drunkardes supersticious or infected with errours in doctrine c. yet must we count them in the Church vntil they be cut of from it by excommunication Wherefore whoremōgers Papistes Idolatrous and superstitious persons though they be knowne to be suche if they do cōmunicate with vs in the word and sacraments are to be counted in the Church vntill they be orderly secluded from the same And yet there may be Papistes Atheistes and suche lyke though they be not commonly knowne to be suche And you knowe well inough that they which in déede are Papistes in opinion yet if they be content to conforme them selues to the outwarde orders of the Churche would stande in their owne defense agaynst him that should accuse them They 〈◊〉 are in the Church and not of the Church are not hypocrite onely T. C. eueth place agaynst himselfe Neither is it true that onely hypocrites are suche as be in the Churche and are not of the Churche That chapter which you quote in your margent and almost the whole Epistle doth declare the contrarie For the incestuous Corinthian was in the Church vntill he was excommunicated And the Apostle there speaking of whoremongers Idolaters c ▪ sayth Si quis cum frater appelletur fuerit s ortator c. If any whiche is called Cor. 5. a brother be a fornicatour or couetous or an Idolater or a rayler or a drunkarde or an extortioner with suche one eate not By the name of brethren were those onely then called whiche did professe themselues to be Christians and were so accounted to be And master Caluine speaking agaynst the like errour of the Anabaptistes after that he had spoken of hypocrites in the Churche addeth and sayth Nonnunquà m etiam admixti Caluin aduers. Anabap. contemptores dei vitae dissolutae flagitiosae aut qui sibi cauebunt ne reprehendantur ab hominibus sed interim ostendunt se nullo dei timore nulla reuercntia tangi Oftentimes also there are mingled contemners of God men of dissolute and wicked life or suche as wil be sure to keepe them selues out of daunger of mens reprehension when as notwithstanding they shewe themselues not to be touched with any feare or reuerence of God If you meane that place 1. Cor. 5. where S. Paule sayth Si quis cum frater appelletur c. If any man which is called a brother c. and thinke that thereby they are secluded from the externall societie of the Churche you take the words of S. Paule amisse as the Anabaptistes did to whome obiecting that place M. Caluine answered in his booke written agaynst them in this maner Quòd autem vetat Paulus cum his cibum sumere Ibidem qui sunt vitae dissolutae id ad priuatam consuetudinem pertinet nō ad publicam cōmunionem VVheras Paule forbiddeth that we should eate with them which are of a dissolute life and behauiour that perteyneth onely to priuate familiaritie and not to the publike cōmunion Nowe if we ought to receyue the Communion with them we ought also to accompt them in the externall societie of the Churche But why do you thus séeke to shifte of those matters whiche you can not answere Is it not certayne that there is in the externall societie of the Churche a farre greater number of suche than there was in the Apostles time whiche if it be true as it can not be denied then do I still affirme that the election of the minister can not be safely committed to the people It is wel that you take vpō you to prescribe vnto the Magistrate how to deale with such as be not in the Church I pray you where finde you any such maner of dealing towards them appoynted vnto the ciuill Magistrate if you haue any scripture for it why do you not alleage it if you haue none what presumption is entred into you thus imperiously to prescribe lawes vnto Magistrates But what if there be playne scripture that they ought not to be admitted to the hearing of the worde if they be Math. 7. dogges and swine what say you to this Giue not that which is holy to dogges neither cast ye your pearles to swyne Your distinction betwixte the Churche and the common wealthe if it were in Neroes or Dioclesians time mighte be admitted withoute exception but in my opinion it is not so fytte in thys tyme and especially in this kingdome Maye he be a member of a Christian common wealth that is not in the Church of Christ if you had sayde that he maye be in the power and at the wyll and pleasure of a Christian Magistrate that is not in the Churche of Christe I coulde well haue lyked of it but it can not yet synke into my head that he should be a member of a Christian common wealth that is not also a member of the Churche of Christ concerning the outwarde societie M. Musculus in my iudgement speaketh truely agaynst this distinction of yours betwixte the Church and a Christian common wealth in his com pla it de magistra Let the Ethnikes and Infidels liuing not in the vnitie of truth but in the confusion Musculus of errors haue diuerse Magistrates and lawmakers some prophane and some holy bycause their lyfe is altogether prophane and their Religion nothing else but superstition Christian people are in euery respecte holy and consecrated vnto the name and glory of Christ not in temples onely and ecclesiasticall ceremonies but in all their lyfe in euerye place at all times in all things actions and studyes that according to the Admonition of the Apostle 1. Cor. 10. whether he eateth or drinketh or whatsoeuer he doth he doth it to the glorie of God c. wherfore that distinction of ecclesiasticall and prophane lawes can haue no place in it bycause there is nothing in it that is prophane seyng that it is a holy people vnto the Lorde God and the Magistrate is holy and not prophane his authoritie holy hys lawes holy c. be it therefore farre from the Church of Christ that it should be partly holy partly prophane c. But all this from the purpose and you make to many friuolous digressions from the matter which compelleth me also in following you to doe the lyke Chap. 6. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 45. Sect. 2. Fiftly in the Apostles time there was no Churche established being In the Apostles time no church established and no christian Magistrate then no Christian Magistrates and therefore the state of the Church was popular nowe there is Christian Magistrates and a Church established and subiect to rulers c. T. C. Pag. 35. Sect. 1. If there be no churches established bycause there were no Christian Magistrates then the churches of the Apostles were not established
Eradium mibi successorem volo c. Therefore least anye shoulde complayne of me I doe heere signifye vnto you all my will whyche I thynke to bee the wyll of God I will haue Eradius the mynister to bee my successoure c. Lastlye he sheweth howe he hymselfe was appointed Byshop his predecessor being yet aliue Here it is to be noted first what stirre began to be in Augustines time about such Notes out of the restunome of Augustine elections made by the people which was the cause why he and others appointed vnto themselues successors whilest they yet liued Secondly that Seuerus appointed to himselfe a successor and thought it not necessary therein to require the consent of the people which he would not haue neglected if it had bin either necessary or vsuall Last of all that Augustine pronounceth Eradius to be his successor in the presence of the people that they might know his minde but yet without asking their voyces although they did willingly of themselues consent for that which afterward he requireth them to subscribe vnto was the petition that he made vnto them no more to trouble hym with their ciuil matters but that they would resort vnto Eradius his successor for such causes When the reader hathe well considered these circumstances which he shall better learne in the place itselfe then let hym iudge how muche it serueth for your turne It may appeare by that Epistle of Ambrose what contention there was in Vercellensi Contention about popular elections ecclesia to the which he wrote about the election of their Byshop for they had bene long destitute of one as it there appeareth Wherefore he exhorteth them to agrée ▪ ment by the example of their predecessors who so well agréed in choosing of Eusebius wherevpon he saith meritò vir tantus meaning Eusebius euasit quem omnis elegit ecclesia Ambro. epi. 82 meritò creditum quòd diuino esset electus iudicio quem onmes postulauissent He worthily proued a notable man whome the whole Church elected he was rightly thought to be chosen by gods appointment whome euery one desired And who doubteth but that he is called of God whome the whole Church without suite without sinister affection without intent to mainteine factions and schismes doth desire this proues that in Ambrose his time in that Church the people desired their Byshop which is not to be denied but it also sheweth that in the same time there were maruellous contentions about such elections which is to be considered Nazianzene in that oration hath not one argument to proue that the election of the minister Nazianzene performeth not that for the which he is auouched Contention in popular elections doth perteyne to the Church neyther doth he confute those things which should séeme to hinder it for there is none alleadged only he declareth what a maruellous stirre and sedition there was at two sundry times in the Church of Caesaria about the election of the Byshop what violence was vsed about the same how the people were deuided among themselues first and after against their ministers Likewise how they suddenly misliked their owne choise and would haue disanulled it if they had not bin restreyned of their willes by Nazianzene his father How the Emperoure also and the ruler of the citie taking part with the factious company were by him pacifyed Surely this maketh very little to the commendation of popular elections Nay in the second contention that he there reciteth declaring who were the especiall authours of it he saith Ecclesiae enim a malo erant immunes pariter opulentiores potētiores sed omnis The common people especial authours of tumults in elections impetus ac seditio inter plebem erat ac precipuè vilissimam For the churches meaning the Cleargie were cleare from that mischiefe so were the richer sort also and they which were of greater authoritie but all the violence and sedition was among the common people and among them especially which were of the basest sort And a little after telling how his father pacifyed that sedition he saith that his father writ vnto them admonished them p pulum sacerdotes necnon alios quotquot qui ad gradum pertinebant obtestabatur eligebat * calculum ferebat c. He humbly intreated the people the priests and others which perteyned 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to that order he elected chose c. What is here spoken that maketh not rather against you than with you no man denieth but that the people at this time had interest in the election of the minister in diuers Churches but that doth not proue that they ought to haue so nowe or that the Byshop hath no interest in the same nay inconueniences of popular elections did then manifestly appeare There is not as yet one authoritie brought in to proue that the ordering of ministers T. C. reasoneth not ad idem and defendeth not the Admonition doth at no hand apperteine to the byshop whiche the Admonition affirmeth and I haue improued but you haue not replyed vnto it kéeping your olde accustomed manner still not to reason ad idem for whereas you shoulde conclude thus the ordering of ministers doth at no hand perteyne to a Byshop you conclude thus The election T. C. letteth slip y e which he shold proue and yet proueth not that which he would The propositions that should haue bin defended of a Pastor or Byshop perteyneth not to one man alone And yet you haue not proued that only you bring in examples of popular elections and so haue I broughte in both examples and authorities for the sole election of the Byshop for they be both true But you ought to proue these two propositions if you will iustify the Admonition firste that popular elections ought to be perpetuall and secondly that the ordeyning of ministers dothe at no hand perteyne to the Byshop But you subtilly passe these ouer and cast a mist before your readers eyes in heaping vp out of Illiricus néedelesse proofes Chap. 7. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Page 41. Sect. 3. And that this election continued in the Churche vntill within a CCC yeares at what tyme there was more than Egyptiacall and palpable darknesse ouer the face of the whole yearth it may appeare in a treatise of Flaccus Illiricus whiche he calleth an addition vnto his booke that he entituleth the catalogue of the witnesses of truth of whome I confesse my selfe to haue bin (a) Not only much but almost altogither muche holpen in this matter of the choise of the Church touching the ministers especially in the Emperours edicts whiche are before cited For lacking opportunities diuers ways I was contented somewhat to vse the collection to my commoditie for the more speedy furtherance and better proceeding in other matters which I will leaue of bycause they may be there red of those that be learned whome I wil also referre to the sixt
muche as one word of any Bishop of Cōstantinople And y t it may appeare how far you ar ouerséene in this place you shal vnderstād that the last Emperour of whom Eusebius maketh any mētion in these bookes is Dioclesian who came to the Empire Anno. 288. but Constantinople was builded Anno. 335. So that by your assertion the Byshop of Constantinople was confirmed aboue 40. yeares before Constantinople was Chap. 7. the. sixte Diuision T. C. Page 42. Lin. 2. Sect. 1. I will adde only one place which if it be more (*) Part riunt montes c. bitter than the rest and cut the quicke more neare you shall not be angrie with me but first with those that were the Authors of it and then with him that wrote it Eusebius in the sixth booke speaking of Origen which was admitted not of one Byshop but of many Byshops to teach sheweth how the Byshops were reprehended by the Byshop of Alexandria called Demetrius bycause they had admitted him (a) An vntruth as will appeare without the election of the Presbyterie of the Church which were the chiefe in the election in euery Church and vnto the whiche the Churches did committe the gouernment of themselues in euery seuerall towne and citie and saith that it hath not bin heard that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is that the lay men should teach when the Byshops were present Whereby it is euident that he counted him (b) Vntruth for O gea was yet a lay man and not admitted minister by any a lay man which was only admitted by the Byshops although they were many not being first elected by the presbyterie of that Church whereof he was the teacher Io. Whitgifte The terrible preface that is here prefixed would make any man quake that is not acquainted with such vayne bragges But soft man awhile you do but dreame for there is no such matter in that booke of Eusebius Did you neuer heare tell of any that T. C. smiteth at others but woundeth himselfe labouring to smite at another haue deadly wounded themselues I beléeue it will fall so out with you in this bitter and sharpe place and then shall not I neede to be angry with you you shall haue more cause to chafe with your selfe For answer to the place I say it is altogither by you falsifyed and most vntruly Eusebius fa sityed by T. C. alleadged the only thing that Demetrius found fault with was bycause Origen being a lay man did teache in the Churche Byshops being present for he saithe it was neuer heard that lay mē should teach in the churches Byshops being present But what is sayde to this nescimus quomodò c. wherein he affirmeth we know not how that thing which is not Eu. li. 6. ca. true seeing there may be found diuers who when they were able to profyte the brethren and that the holy Byshops had exhorted them to instruct the people did after this sorte teach in the Church As Euelpis was required to do at Laranda by Neon and Paulinus at Iconium by Celsus and at Synada Theodorus by Atticus whiche were all blessed brethren And it is very likely that this thing was done also in other places whiche we know not of Yea Demetrius himselfe suffered him to do the like in Alexandria as it is manifest in sundry places of that booke and euen in the end of the same chapter He retourneth to Alexandria and doth againe employ himselfe to his accustomed diligence in teaching But bycause this place is so confidently auouched and so vntruly I will set it downe as it is in Eusebius lib. 6. cap. 20. where he speaking of Origen saith thus In the meane time by reason of a greate warre begonne in that citie leuing Alexandria and thinking that he could not safely abide in Aegypt he went into Palestina and remayned at Caesaria where also he was requested of the Byshops of that countrie that he would dispute and expound the holy scriptures before the whole Church when as yet he was not ordeyned minister The whiche thing is hereby manifest for that Alexander the Byshop of Hierusalem and Theoctistus Byshop of Caesaria writing to Demetrius of him do after this sort render an accompt of that deed Furthermore he addeth this also in his letters that it was neuer heard of neyther yet at any time seene that lay men did teach in the Church Byshops being present wherein we know not how he affirmeth that thing which is not true c. As it is set downe before What one word is there here that sheweth how the Byshops were reprehended by the Byshop of Alexandria called Demetrius bycause they had admitted Origen without the election of the presbyterie of the Churche whiche were the chiefe in the election in euery Church and vnto the which the Churches did committe the gouernment of themselues in euery seuerall towne and citie c. as you affirme Nay is there any thing sounding that way the only cause why Demetrius reproueth them as I haue said is bycause they suffered Origen in their presence to interpret the scriptures in the Churche being as yet Origen was then indeede a lay man but a lay man And yet you sée how Demetrius is reproued for that also how by sundry examples it is there shewed that it is no rare thing for a lay man to interpret the scriptures in the Church the Byshop being present if he be there vnto called by the Byshop Is this your bitter place is this that terrible cutter Indéede it maketh your doings vncyphered and shrewdly woundeth you if you can well consider it But to make the matter yet more plaine Euseb. in the same booke and. 23. chapter sheweth how Origen afterwards accepit presbyterij gradum in Caesaria palestinae ab eius loci Euse. lib. 6. 23. Episcopis was made minister in Caesaria Palestinae of the Byshops of that countrie The which thing Demetrius misliked also not for any iust cause but only of malice for although Demetrius at the firste esteemed well of Origen and bare good will vnto hym yet afterwarde when he saw him maruellously to prosper and to become very famous and well accompted of he then sought meanes not only to discredite him but those also which had preferred him to the ministerie laying to his charge that which he had done being a boy that is gelding of himselfe as Eusebius doth at large declare lib. 6. cap. 8. You sée therfore how vntruly you haue reported Eusebius and that there is no suche cause by him expressed why Demetrius reproued the Byshops as you feyne to be But I partly smell your meaning which I suppose to be this that all we whiche are admitted into the ministerie by the Byshops withoute your presbyterie are but lay men whereby you would insinuate that all those which haue bin baptised by vs are not baptised bycause you say that it is of the
contrary to the present state and that enelineth to libertie would vsually elect suche as would féede their humours So that the Prince neyther should haue quiet gouernment neyther could be able to preserue the peace of the Church nor yet to plant that religion that he in conscience is perswaded to be ncere As for the authoritie of isalowing their elections which you giue vnto him it is but an intollerable trouble and besides that he shall not vnderstand their doings or if he doth yet may he not depriue them of their libertie in choosing so that you make his authoritie in effect nothing Moreouer his Churches and whole kingdome shoulde be filled with Anabaptists Libertines Papists Puritanes and an hundreth sects mo or euer he were aware for who will complayne of him whome the people do phansi be he neuer so vnméete a person 3 My thirde reason is taken out of your owne booke Fol. 25. where you say that the If the people should choose the inferioure in gifts shuld be iudge of the superiour Pag. 25. lin 3. Archdeacon may not be iudge of the aptnesse and ablenesse of the Pastor bycause he is inferi re to the Pastor both in calling and gifts which if it be true then surely may not the people haue any thing to do in the election of the Pastor being in all respects much more inferioure vnto him than the Archdeacon is for to haue interest in electing is to be admitted to iudge of his meetenesse and aptnesse that is to be admitted 4 It would be a cause why many Churches shoulde be longer destitute of their Popular elections a cause of long want of pastors c Pastors than is conuenient for if an vnméete man were chosen and an appeale made to the next Pastours and from them to the next Synode prouinciall and then the parishioners that will not yéeld excommunicated and after excōmunication complayned of to the Prince and then driuen to a new election and in the same peraduēture as wayward as they were before whilest I say all this were in doing besides the maruellous schismes contentions brawlings and hatred that must of necessitie in the meane time be among them two or thrée yeares might soone be spent for all these things cannot be in due order well done in lesse time al which time the parishes must be destitute of a pastor burne with those mischiefes that I haue before recited 5 It would make the gouernment of the Church popular which is the worst kind Popular election a cause of a popular gouernment of gouernment that can be For it is true that M. Caluine saith cap. 20. Instit. Procliuis est à regno c. The fall from a kingdome into a tyrannie is very redy and the change from the gouernment of the best into the Factions of a fewe is not much harder but the fall from a popular state into a sedi ion is of all other most easie 6 The people as I haue said before through affection and want of iudgement are The people easily led by affection easily brought by ambitious persons to giue their consent to vnworthy men they are soone moued by the request of their frends and of such as they eyther feare or loue to do anything as may appeare in sundry things cōmitted vnto thē of great importāce yea sometime when by oth they are bound to deale without al affection or parcialitie 7 By this meanes they would thinke to haue their pastor bound vnto them so that A hindrance to the Pastor in doing his duty they would take it disdainefully to be reproued by him according as his duetie would require Againe the pastoure considering their good will in preferring of him woulde not so freely 〈◊〉 them nor willingly displease them 8 To conclude the people are for the most part rude and ignorant carelesse also in The people vnfit to be iudges in such cases Chrys. 2. in 〈◊〉 suche matters and more me te to be ruled than to rule For as Chrysostome de eth Populus est quiddam tumultus c. The people is a certaine thing full of tumult and sturres consisting and rashly compacted for the most part of folly oftentimes tossed with variable and contrary iudgement like to the waues of the sea c. These and a great number mo reasons may be alleadged why the people are to be s uded from the election of their Pastors and yet do I not so vtterly seclude them from such elections but that if they haue any thing to obiect agaynste him that is to be ordeyned they might be heard which order is prescribed in the booke of making ministers and that is asmuche as can be required Althoughe I doe not condemne those Churches wherin this is safely committed vnto them for I only speake of the present estate of this Churche of Englande The reason why I doe thinke the Bishops to be the fittest to haue both the allowing and ordeyning of such as are to be ministers I haue expressed in my answere to the Admonition And they are not as yet by better reasons confuted Of ministers hauing no pastorall charge of ceremonies vsed in ordeining ministers of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes Tract 4. Of ministers admitted a place being not voyd Chap. 1. The first Diuision The Admonition The seuenth Then none admitted to the ministerie but (u) Act. 1. 25. a place was voyd afore hand to which he should be called Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 47. Sect. 1. 2. TO proue this you cite in the margent the first of the Acts wher it is declared howe Mathias was chosen in the place of Iudas to make vp the number of the. xij Apostles Surely this is but a slender reason Mathias was chosen into the place of Iudas Ergo no man must be admitted into the ministerie excepte a place before hande be voyde to the which he should be called Euery meane sophister will laugh at the childishnesse of this argument Mathias was chosen to be an Apostle and not to any certaine cure and therfore this example proueth nothing T. C. Page 42. Sect. 4. The reason is of greater force than you woulde seeme to make it for as the. xij place was to Mathias so is a certain Church vnto a Pastor or Minister as the Apostles ordeined none vnto that place before it was voyd so ought not the Bishop ordeyn any vntil there be a Churche voyde and destitute of a pastor And as the Apostles ordeined not any Apostle further than they had testimonie Act. ▪ of the word of God as it appeareth that S. Peter proceedeth by that rule to the election so ought no Bishop ordeyn any to any function which is not in the scripture appointed But there are by the word of God at this tyme no ordinarie ministers Ecclesiastical which be not local and tyed to one congregation therfore this sending abrode of ministers whiche haue no places is vnlawfull Io. Whitgifte As
neeessarie to sende my brother Epaphroditus to you my companion in laboure and fellovv souldiour euen your messanger and he that ministred vnto me suche thinges as I vvanted Collossians 1. verse 7. As ye also learned of Epaphras our deare fellovve seruant vvhich is for you a faythful minister of Christ. Quorsum haec Howe proue these places that all Ministers then preached That of Luke chapter 9. proueth aswell that they cured diseases as that they preached and therefore out of that place you mighte aswell conclude that all Ministers oughte to be curers of sicknesses aswell as preachers This I wryte onely to let you vnderstande your vanitie and ignoraunce in quoting so many Scriptures to so small purpose Io. Whitgifte Ad haec ne verbum quidem but onely to the place of the nynthe of Luke and that out of place Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 52. Sect. vlt. I wishe that euery minister were a preacher but that beeing vnpossible as the state is now I see not how you can cōdemne reading Fayth commeth by reading ministers seeing reading is necessarie in the Church fayth cōmeth aswel by reading the scriptures in the booke as by rehearsing of thē without booke In the. 31. of Deut. it is thus written Leges verba legis huius coram omni Israel c. Thou shalt reade the vvords of this booke before all Israell c. S. Paule sayth in the. 15. to the Rom. 〈◊〉 scripta sunt c. VVhatsoeuer is vvritten c. But I neuer heard reading of the scriptures The Zuinfildians condemne reading of scripture reading of prayers reading of Homilies taken out of the scripture condemned but onely by the Authors of this booke and by the zuinfildians T. C. Page 50. Sect. vlt. Pag. 51. Sect. 1. If you should beget and be a father of many bookes and all your children like their eldest brother you would without better aduise shake many groundes of our religion For heere agayne you wishe that all pastors were able to teache but that beeing vnpossible as the state is nowe you are content with Pastors or ministers that can doe nothing but reade You throughout your whole booke make this a maruellous good estate and alwayes turne the best side outwarde and when men goe about to vrge the deformities thereof to the ende they mighte be remedied then you lay open the shame and nakednesse of it and make it greater than it is in deede For as I haue shewed before the Church standeth not so muche in neede of your reading ministers as you would make the worlde beleeue And although it be a great deformitie and sore plague of the Churche whiche you here speake of and confesse at vnwares yet you will let no man come neare to heale it There be some make a gayne by sores and sore legges and therefore they haue a medicine to keepe their woundes alwayes greene that they should not heale I hope you do not of purpose keepe the Churche in this estate but this I dare say that the chiefe of your gayne and of your honour consisteth and is grounded in the ruines of the Churche and therefore I desire you to tooke vnto it Io. Whitgifte I omit whatsoeuer you héere speake agaynst my person for I am purposed to absteine The causes of the lacke of able ministers from requiting you in like sorte onely I will answere for my selfe where you labour to slaunder me The cause of lacke of a sufficient number of méete ministers in this Church is neyther the religion professed nor the gouernment that is vsed nor yet the gouernours But partly the crueltie of the times past wherein numbers of méete ministers haue bin consumed partly the vn willingnesse of mē in this present time which haue not that zeale to enter into this calling that is to be wished and partly nay chiefly principally you your schismes which haue caused some to cast off their ministerie wholly some to forsake their pastorall charges and yet to kéepe their Prebendes and other liuings some to depraue the ministerie condemne it and by all meanes possible alienate as many from it as they can And therefore nothing that I confesse of the scarsitie of méete able ministers derogateth any thing eyther from the doctrine professed in this Church or frō the kinde of gouernment or the Magistrates but rather cōmendeth the same bicause notwithstanding al the former impediments yet hath it a number of excellent ministers doth continually bréed mo If any confession tende to the condemnation of any it is of you your adherents who haue more hindred slaundered the Gospel in this realme of England than the Papists eyther haue done or could possibly do And I am fully persuaded that one of the greatest deformities suffered in this Church is lacke of discipline towardes you who be so farre from healing any sore in the Church that the more you be suffered the greater doe you wounde it And in very déede the reformation you pretende is nothing but a méere confusion or rather subuersion bothe of the Churche and common wealthe also My honour and gaine is but verie small yet it is more than I am worthie of but I trust the tyme will come when as such boyling affections vttered in so spitefull a maner will be made manyfest and I pray God it be not imputed vnto you in that day If my houour and gayne be other than may stande with the good and prosperous estate of the churche I am readie to yelde it vp whensoeuer I shall by due authoritie be required In the meane tyme God be iudge betwixt you and me Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 51. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. But what if the estate of the Church be suche as you speake of that it will scarce yeeld three preaching Pastors and Bishops in some Diocesse may you therfore make reading ministers In deed if the Apostle had made this a councell only and no commaundement that Pastors of churches should be able to teache then your saying might haue bene borne But seyng that S. Paule hath commaunded expressedly that he should be able to teache and Tim. 1. 3. to conuince the gaynsayers I would learne of you gladly what necessitie there is whiche can Tit. 1. cause a man to breake the morall law of God to bring in a tradition of man You may as wel break any other commaundement of God for necessities sake as breake this being comprehended in the fyrst table And tosay that these that can only reade must be tolerated in the Church as ministers is to say bycause you can haue no Pastors in the Churches you will haue idolls for so will I not doubt to call them although through ignorance of that whiche they do some may be good men But yet in respect of the place that they occupie they are idolls for they stand for that and make shew of that
whiche they are not and admit you them as often as you will the Lorde pronounceth that they shall be no ministers to him which haue no * knowledge Qzee 6. But let vs heare your reason (a) It is youre owne reason there must be reading in the church therfore there must be ministers whiche can doe nothing else Then we may reason thus to There muste be breaking of bread and distributyng of the cuppe in the Church and pouring on water therfore whosoeuer is able to breake aloafe of bread or to lift a cup of wine or to poure on water on the bodye of the chylde may be made a minister And did you neuer reade y t there were readers in the Church when there were no reading ministers But of that of reading of the scriptures prayers in the Church there wyll be a fitter place to speake afterward where it shal be shewed how vniustly you surmise these things of them ▪ Touching Homilies shal be spoken more hereafter where further occasion is giuen Io. Whitgifte Sainct Paule 1. Tim. 3. and Tit. 1. sheweth what qualities a Bishop or a Pastor ought to haue but he doth not say that if none can be founde or not a sufficient number in whome all these qualities do concurre that then the Church shal rather be destitute of ministers than haue suche for there were in his time that swarued from this rule and yet was he glad they preached Of the ministers of this Churche of England though diuerse be ignorant yet inaye they by studye and diligente readyng of the Scriptures Catechismes Homilies and other godlie and necessarie bookes so profyte in knoweledge that althoughe they bée not able publikely to preache yet maye they bée able priuately to exhorte aud otherwyse also by Readyng the Scriptures and Homilies according to the order appoynted greately profyte the people of God But what should I contende with you in this matter Thys Churche of Englande in this poynt professeth nothing that is not allowed by the generall Confession of the Churches in Heluetia from the whiche I thinke you will not dissente That Confession as I tolde you before hathe these woordes VVe condemne all vnmete ministers not indued with giftes necessarie for a shepheard Confess Heluet that should feed his flock howbeit we acknowledge that the harmlesse simplicitie of some shepheardes in the olde churche did sometimes more profite the churche than the greate exquisite and fine or delicate but a little to proude learning of some others VVherfore we reiect not nowadays the good simplicitie of certain so that they bee not altogether vnskilfull of God and his worde There is nothing in that 6. of Ozee that serueth your turne You say that I reason thus There muste bee readyng in the Churche therefore there muste bee Ministers that can doe nothyng else You knowe what is wrytten Sapi. 1. Os quod mentitur c. The mouthe that speaketh lyes slayeth the soule c. I woulde it were not so vsuall with you My argumente is this that for somuche as there can not be a sufficient number of preachers to furnish this churche of England in al places therfore there may be reading ministers that is such ministers as by reading the scriptures other bookes apointed vnto them may profit y e people instruct them for reading is necessarie in the Church c. This is my reason That which you vse is a child of your own begetting it is none of myne as the Reader can not choose but perceiue The reason that foloweth of breaking bread and distributing the cup. c. is vsed but for a iest which ought not to be in serious matters therfore I leaue it to them that are disposed to laugh when they should rather wéepe I know there were readers of olde in the Churche but they had not authoritie to administer the sacramentes as our ministers haue and of necessitie must haue and Tract 9. ca. 2. the. 2. deuision lawfully may haue also as it shall be hereafter declared Chap. 2. the fourth Diuision T. C. Page 51. Sect. 7. I dooe not vse to maintayn the places which are quoted although they be truely alleadged for the (*) Nay it is bycause you can no for you wāt no good will causes which I haue before mentioned but yet I can not but speake of this place of saint Luke for feare of the daunger that may ensue For if this be a good reason y e the place of S. Luke may not be vsed to proue that preaching is perpetually annexed to the ministerie bicause in y t same place is made mention of curing of diseases which is but a temporall thing followed the ministerie but for a time then the comandement of S. Iames * that the elders of the Church should Iames. 5. pray for those that are sick is now no commaūdement bicause putting on of hands and anoynting of them that they might recouer their health hath no place and by this meanes you wyll pull from vs as many places of the newe testament as you did before of the olde Io. Whitgifte You would no doubt maintey all their places if you could for the quotations be the substance of that booke the thing that most persuaded the Reader which credited al things there written without examination thought it must of necessitie be true being so confirmed by the scriptures And surely you could not haue greatlier condemned the authors of that Admonitiō than in suffring so many quotations of theirs to passe without defense For what wickednesse can there be greater than to abuse the Scriptures in maynteyning of sects and errours The place of Luke is not answered the words of the texte be these and he sent Luke 9. them to preache the kingdome of God and to cure the sicke c. No man liuing can cōclude of this place the one more than he can do the other your words be but your owne There be other places a number that be more generall than this to proue preaching by this was peculiar and proper to the disciples as the whole circumstances of the place declare for they are also commaunded to take nothing with them in their iorney neither staues c. To preach is perpetuall but it can not be gathered of this place that none ought to be admitted into the ministerie but such as can preach bicause it was peculiarly spoken to the Apostles as the other circumstāces do proue The commaundement of Saincte Iames is generall for he telleth what all sicke men ought to doe and the ministers lykewyse that resorte to the sicke and therfore though the anoynting wyth oyle whiche was a signe of the gift of healing bée taken away bicause the gift is ceased yet doth praying remayne still and is perpetuall and not onely proper to some ministers of the Churche but common to all Wherfore the places be not lyke the one béeing spoken peculiarly to the disciples the
the church in the administration of the sacraments in the time of Chrysostome was not s uerall but common and vsuall apparel But that the Reader may vnderstande your carelesnesse in alleaging the scriptures I will set downe the wordes of Salomon in that 9. chapter and. 8. verse At all times let thy garments be white and let not oyle be lacking vpon thine head In the which sentence by the white garment is ment eyther innocencie of life as Pellicane doth interprete it or ioy mirth as some other thinke Ecclesi 9. but there can be nothing lesse gathered thereof than that there was at that time any suche vsuall kinde of apparell And to what purpose should he haue so sayde if it had bin so The Metaphores figuratiue kinde of spéeches that Salomon vseth in these bookes can not be vnknowne to any You do not trouble me with many quotations but those that be are passing straunge And surely I can not but maruell howe you dare be so bolde as thus to abuse the scriptures Be it that this is the saying of belly gods according to the note of the Geneua Bible whervpon I thinke you grounde your assertion to moue vnto mirth pastime dothe it therefore followe that this was an vsuall kinde of Apparell in Salomon his time Or if it were then must it be also in Chrysostome his time Or if it were so in his time might it not also be vsed of the ministers in the administration of the sacraments as a comely and decent vesture and differing from the rest If I had the gifte of iesting that you are so excellent in what sporte could I make with this and a number suche like places Chap. 4. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 56. Sect. 1. Peter Martyr likewise in an Epistle written to master Hoper P. Martyr sayth on this sorte I vvill not graunte that these diuersities of vestures haue their beginninges of the Pope for so muche as I reade in the ecclesiasticall historie hovve that Iohn the Apostle vvore at Ephesus vvhere he Iohns apparell dvvelled a Bishops apparell tearming it Petalum seu lamina Pontificalis As touching Sainct Cyprian the holy martyr Pontius the Deacon vvriteth that a little before he shoulde be beheaded he gaue vnto him that vvas appoynted to behead him his vesture called Birrus after he had put it off and to the Deacons he gaue his other vesture called Dalmatica and so stoode in linnen Chrysostome maketh mention of the vvhite vesture of the ministers of the Churche Haec ille T. C. Pag. 55. Sect. 1. The reasons that M. Peter Martyr vseth are the same before and howe he hath also condemned them it shall appeare with M. Bucers iudgement of these thinges in the ends of the booke Io. Whitgifte In the meane time you sée howe these notable learned men agrée in one truthe agaynst you neyther are you able to shewe any contrarietie in this poynt vttered by him or M. Bucer as I trust shall then appeare Chap. 4. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 56. Sect. 2. 3. Socrates also in the seconde booke of his Ecclesiasticall historie Socrates sayth that the father of Eustathius beeing Bishop of Cesarea did depriue the sayde Eustathius his sonne beeing a priest of his place Eustathius and dignitie because he wore apparell not comely for a Priest to weare nor agreable to his order Therefore it is certaine that Ministers euen from the Apostles tyme haue had a distincte and seuerall kynde of apparell from other men T. C. Page 55. Sect. 2. As for Eustathius his depriuation bycause he dyd not were apparell meete for a Minister it maketh not to this purpose one whit For I haue shewed that if any minister goe like a ruffian or swashe buckler or in the brauerie of a courtier that it is meete he should be punished according to the quantitie of the fault And that it is so to be vnderstanded it appeareth manifestly by the counsell of Gangris which did therfore confirme the same deposing bycause he ware a straunger apparell and the habite of a Philosopher and caused all his fellowes to doe so Therefore I maruaple what you meane to alleage this place It is also alleaged of * Nicephorus in (a) neither of the Lib. 9. cap. 45. places there is any Eustathius the sonne of Eustathius but of Eulabius or as Nicephorus readeth Eulalius And therefore your conclusion is both vntrue and vncertaine that since the Apostles times there hath bene a distinct and seuerall apparell of the ministers from the rest Io. Whitgifte The wordes of Socrates Lib. 2. chap. 43. be these Eustathius the Bishop of Sebastia in Socra lib. 2. cap. 43. Armenia was not admitted to make his defense bycause he was deposed before of his father Byshop of Cesarea in Capadocia for that he wore an vndecent garment The canon of the Councell of Gangris If any man thinketh it to auaile vnto his holye purpose to Distinc. 3 wete of continencie that he weare a cloake as if thereby he should atteine vnto righteousnesse and reprehendeth or condemneth them which weare the ornament called Byrrhus and the other common and vsuall garment let him be accursed Dist. 30. Both by Socrates and also by this Canon of the Councell it doth appeare that Eustathius and his adherentes were condemned for vsing a newe and singular kinde of apparell from that which then was commonly and customably vsed of all Bishops That in the conclusion of this Councell which is spoken of modest simple and decent apparell agaynst that which is lose and dissolute hath no collour of prouing any thing against Eustathius his contempt and singularitie neither doth it in any one word signifie that he was not depriued for refusing to weare the ordinarie and accustomed apparell to Priestes You saye that in neither of the places there is any Eustathius the sonne of Eustathius T. C. taketh aduantage where none is giuen but of Eulabius c. Gladly woulde you haue some thing to dally with if possibly you could tell how Are you not ashamed thus to deale where doe I say that Eustathius was the sonne of Eustathius had you not my booke before you be not these my words Socrates in the second booke of his Ecclesiasticall historie saith that the father of Eustathius being Bishoppe of Caesarea did depriue the sayd Eustathius his sonne beyng a priest c. I neither name him Eustathius nor Eulabius nor Eulalius Therfore my conclusion is both true and certain and you doe but séeke occasion of quareling That the Apparell now vsed is not Popishe or Antichristian and that things inuented by euill men may be vsed of Christians Chap. 5. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 56. Sect. 4. But cappe gowne tippet c. you saye is Popishe and Antichristian This is onely sayde and not proued If you call it Popishe and Antichristian bycause it was first inuented
so good a grace in them Chap. 5. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 56. Sect. vlt. And if there bee anye other argumentes touchyng anye of these poyntes in other places whiche I haue not gathered together into one the faulte is in thys that I coulde not bestowe so muche tyme in makyng a harmonie of the thynges whiche are at so greate dyscorde and then that whyche is lefte oute shall bee answered in place where I shall fynde it Nowe lette vs see M. Doctors 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and second nauigation touching apparel whether it bee any happier or haue any better successe than the fyrst Io. Whitgifte A proper excuse if any thing fall out in the whole booke whiche you can not answere as there be diuers which you haue not answered Diuers things concerning apparell in other places of the Ansvvere Chap. 6. the fyrst Diuision Admonition Nowe we muste haue Surplisses deuised by Pope Adrian Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 105. Sect. 1. 2. THe impurities you fynde in the administration of Baptisme bee these Surplis c. Touching the Surplis and suche lyke apparell I haue spoken before sufficiently the fyrste inuentor of it whyche you say to be Pope Adrian dot he make it neyther better nor woorse and yet it was vsed long before Adrians tyme neyther can you proue hym to be the fyrst inuentor thereof It is certayne that such kynde of vesture hath bene vsed in the ministration of the Sacramentes long before any corruption of doctrine tooke place in the Churche as it appeareth both by Hierome in his fyrst booke Aduersus Whyte garmente vsed in the ministration Pelagi where he maketh manifeste mention of a whyte garmente vsed in the Administration of Sacrifice by the Byshoppe Prieste and Deacon And also Chrysostome Hom. 6. to the people of Antioche who speaketh of the lyke garmente worne in the Churche Those that answered the examiner do but chyldishly cauill at these two places whyche in deede bee playne of themselues and euident and so is that of Hieromes also vpon the. 44. of Ezechiell The religion of God hath one habite in the ministration and an other in cōmon vse and lyfe Reade the place considerately and it shall easyly appeare that Hierome meaneth as well of Christian Ministers as of Iewishe Priestes But of the vse of this and other apparel prescribed in this Church to be worne by ministers I haue spoken partly before and am ready to speake more as occasion shall be offered In the meane tyme the Surplis is not of the substance of Baptisme neyther required as necessarie to the Administration therof but as comely and decent T. C. Page 57. Sect. 1. In the. 105. page M. Doctour to proue the vse of the Surplice to drawe out his booke into some competent volume borroweth certayne places of the examiner for answere wherevnto I will referre the reader to that whiche is answered vnto the examination as to a full and sufficient answere wherein I will reste and when M. Doctor hathe proued that whiche he sayeth that it is but a chyldish cauill he shall then heare further In the meane season it is but a slender replie to so learned an answere that proueth bothe out of other authours and out of those same whiche the examiner citeth that by a white garmente is mente a comely apparell and not slouenly to saye it is but a chyldish cauill whych a D. of Diumitie and of fortie yeares of age can not answere The place of Hierome vppon the 44. of Ezechiell the more it bee consydered the more shall appeare the truthe of the Answere Io. Whitgifte You haue not answered one worde of this but only shifted it of I purpose not A whyte garmente in the ministration vsed in Hieromes tyme. Hiero. lib. 1. aduers. Pelagi l 44. Ezecb. at this tyme to vnrippe the answere to the Examiner except you had taken the paines to set it downe Both the places of Hierome are to be séene in the one he sheweth that in the administration of the Sacramentes the Bishoppe Prieste and Deacon didde weare a white vesture And in the other he sayeth that the Religion of GOD hathe one habite in the ministration and an other in the common vse and lyfe Ioyne these two places together and sée whether the woords of Hierome be manyfest or no. And that it may euidently appeare that at this tyme wherein Hierome lyued the maner was to weare white garments in the tyme of diuine seruice and Administration of Sacramentes I will recite the wordes of the fourthe Councell of Carthage at the which there were present 214. Bishops among whome was S. Augustine Diaconus tempore oblationis tantùm vellectionis alba induatur Let the Deacon weare a whyte Con. Carth. 4. Can. 41. vesture only in the tyme of the oblation and reading Canone 41. And this may be a sufficient confutation to what soeuer is spoken of these places of Hierome in the answere to the Examiner Chap. 6. the second Diuision Admonition And as for the apparell though we haue ben long borne in hande and yet are that it is for order and decencie commaunded yet we knowe and haue proued that there is neither order nor com ynesse nor obedience in vsyng it There is no order in it but confusion no comlynesse but deformitie no obedience but disobedience both against God and the Prince Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 236. the last lyne but one Pag. 237. Sect. 1. TO all this also I haue answered before I meane to all the reasons here alleadged as for bare wordes they preuayle with none but suche as haue respecte to the persons not to the matter And therfore I omit these wordes of pleasure which you vse when you saye that in this apparell there is no order but confusion no comelynesse but deformitie no obedience but disobedience both against God and the Prince It is not euery priuate mannes parte to define what is order and comlynesse in externall matters being indifferente but is proper to Disobedience to the prince in ciuill matters is disobedience to God them only to whom God hath committed the gouernmente of hys church whose orders and lawes not beeing against the woorde of God whosoeuer doth disobey disobeyeth both God and the Prince as you do in disobeying the Princes lawes in these matters Io. Whitgifte Nothing is sayd to this although some part of it necessarily requireth an answer Chap. 6. the third Diuision Admonition We maruell that they coulde espie in the laste synode that a gray Amyse whiche is but a garment of dignitie should be a garment as they say defyled with superstition and yet that copes caps surplesses tippets and suche lyke baggage the preaching signes of Popishe priesthoode the Popes creatures kepte in the same forme to this ende to bring dignitie and reuerence to the ministers and sacraments should be reteyned still and not abolished Answere to the Admonition Pag. 237. Sect. 2. It
is one of the principall causes of edifying contrariwise such as refuse the same apparel not only dissent disagree among themselues but fal into diuers strange opiniōs without stay slander the gospel with their contentiousnesse and teare in peeces the Church of Christ with their factions and schismes and be the cause why both the worde of God and Christian magistrates be almost generally contemned T. C. Pag. 58. Sect. 2. The thirde reason is that they which consent in wearing the surplices consent also in all other poyntes of doctrine and they that doe not weare it do not consent not so muche as amongst themselues I this consent in the points of religion be in the surplice cope c. tell vs I beseech you whether in the matter or in the forme or in what h dde and vnknowne qualitie standeth it If it be n that the ministers vse all one apparell then it is maruel that this being so strong a bonde to holde them together in godlie vnitie that it was neuer commaunded of Christe nor practised of Prophets or Apostles ether of no other re ormed Churches I had thought wholly that those things whiche the Lorde oppoynteth to mayntayne and keepe vnitie with and specially the holie Sacramentes of Baptisme and of the Lordes Supper had bene strong ynough to haue fyrste of all knitte vs vnto the Lorde and therefore also to his doctrine and then one of vs to an other and that the dissentings in suche a Ceremonie as a Surplice c. neyther should nor could in those that 〈◊〉 vnto God breake the vnitie of the Spirite which is bounde with the bonde of truthe And although there bee whyche lyke not this apparell that thinke otherwyse than eyther theyr brethren or than in deede they oughte to doe yet a man may fynde greater dissent amongest those whiche are vnyted in Surplice and Cope c. than there is amongest those whyche weare them not eyther wyth them selues or with them that weare them For howe many there are that weare Surplices whiche woulde bee 〈◊〉 to saye a Masse than to heare a Sermon lette all the worlde iudge And of those that 〈◊〉 weare this apparell and be otherwyse well mynded to the Gospell are there not whiche wyl weare the Surplice and not the cappe other that will weare bothe cap end surplice but not the tippet and yet a thirde sorte that will weare surplice cappe and tippet but not the cop It hathe bene the manner alwayes of wyse and learned men to esteeme of things by the causes an not by the euent and that especially in matters of religion for if they should be esteemed of the euent who is there which wil not condemne the Israelites battel agaynst Aye and 〈◊〉 agaynst the Bemamites which notwithstandyng the cause which was Gods wil and Gods maundement iustifyeth And therfore in a word I answer that if there be such con ent mongst those which like well of this apparel and such arres amongst those y t like it not as M. 〈◊〉 woulde make the worlde beleeue neyther is the w aryng of a surplice c. cause of that consent in thē nor the not wearing cause of that disagrement in the other But as our knowledge and loue is vnperfect here in this world so is our agreement and consent of iudgement vnperfect And yet all these hard speaches of yours or vncharitable suspicions of papisme Anabaptisme catharisme dona sme c. wherby you do as much as lyeth in you to cut vs cleane of from you shall not be able so to estrange vs or separate vs from you but that we will by gods grace holde whatsoeuer you holde well and kepe that vnitie of spirit which is the bond of truth euen with you Master Doctor whom we s ppose as appeareth by this your booke to haue set yourselfe further frō vs than numbers of those whiche althoughe they be content to receiue the apparell and beare with things yet would haue bene loth to haue set downe that against the sinceritie of the Gospell and hind rance of reformation which you haue bone Io. Whitgifte Such lawes orders as kepe godly peace and vnitie in the Church do 〈◊〉 but the lawes for apparell kepe godly peace vnitie in the Church Ergo they edifie The M nor I proue by experience of such as are subiect to these lawes by the euent which is a probable kinde of reasoning though it be not necessarie neither may the examples of a few improue that which is generally true almost in all These persons that you talke of which be thus contrarily mynded if there be any such as I thinke you do but faine yet do they kepe the peace of the Church they condemne not their brethren neither yet the apparel that they them selues peraduenture for some speciall cause weare not Some I know there are which agrée with vs in wearing the apparell and ioyne with you in contention subscribe to all our orders articles and yet in certaine places and companies mainteine your opinions but of such we make no accompt neither I thinke do you further than they may serue your turne Againe I confesse that there be some which haue not receiued the apparell and yet greatly mislike many of your opinions and kéepe with vs the vnitie of the Churche whom I for my part haue alwayes reuerenced do reuerence not onely for their singular vertue learning but for their modestie also Wherfore when I speake eyther of the one or of the other I speake not of all but of the most part Certaine it is that those things which the Lord appointeth to kepe vnitie with and especially the sacraments ought to be the especiall bond of the same that nothing should separate those that are coupled and ioyned therein but we sée it fall out o the wise such is the crooked rebellious nature of mā therfore hath God also appointed Magistrats and giuen them a thoritie to make orders lawes to mainteine the peace and vnitie of the Churche that those which of conscience and good disposition will not by suche lawes and orders may be constrained at the least to kéepe the externall peace and vnitie of the Churche Doe you take this to be a good reason The Sacrament are bond to kepe and mainteyne the v itie of the spirite therefore there 〈◊〉 no lawes or Magistrates T. imagineth suche a perfection as is not to be ounde to prouide for the externall peace and quietnesse of the Churche your imagination throughoute your whole booke is of suche a perfection in men as thoughe they néeded no lawes or Magistrates to gouerne them but that euery man mighte be as it were a lawe to himselfe whiche wherevnto it tendeth may easily be coniectured I haue not set downe any thing I trust to the hinderance of the Gospell or of reformation ▪ but I séeke to reforme such contentious spirites as be enimyes vnto both And I
nothyng in it neyther for the temple nor for the vessels of the temple nor or the beautie of it but according to the forme that was enioyned him as appeareth in the first of the kings and the second of the Chronicles And in the restoring of that temple zechiell is witnes e how the ange l by the commaundement of God doth parte by parte appoint all to b done bothe in the temple and in the furniture therof Io. Whitgifte These two examples of the Tabernacle and of the temple tende to one ende and might more aptly haue bene alleaged in the title of Ceremonies than of the gouernment of the Church bicause whatsoeuer is here spoken of ither of them perteyneth to Ceremonies and to the worshipping of God and not to externall policie and gouernment of the church and therfore moste vnaptely alleadged agaynste Archebishops The Replier 〈◊〉 by his own wordes Pag. 22. sect 1. c. But what néede I labor much in this matter when you your self in the. 22. pag. of your booke offer for one thing that I shall bring lefte to the order of this Church to shewe me that the Israelites had twentie that were vndecided by the expresse woorde And it is certaine that both Dauid and Salomon appoynted orders the one about the Tabernacle the other about the Temple whyche wée reade not in Scripture they were commaunded to doe And Dauid appoynted degrées of officers in the Temple and Salomon workmen and ouerseers whereof we doe not reade that they had any speciall commaundement 1. Par. 24. Chap. 5. the seuenth Diuision T. C. Page 63. Sect. 4. Nowe if the holie Ghoste in figures and tropes doth so carefully and as a man may speake uriously comprehende all things in the truth it selfe howe muche more is it to be thoughte that he hath performed this If in the shadowes how much more in the body If he haue doone this in earthly things and whiche shall perishe howe is it to be thought that he hathe 〈◊〉 performed it in heauenly and those whyche abyde for euer And then tell me what are those tymes of which it was sayd the Mel ▪ sias when he commeth will tell vs all Is it a lyke thing that he which did not only appoynt the temple and the tabernacle but the ornaments of them would not only neglect the ornaments of the church but also that without the which as we are borne in hand it cannot long stand Shal we thinke that he which remembred the barres there hath forgotten the pillers here or he y t there remembred the pinnes did here forget the maister builders how he should there remember the besoms and here forget Archbishops if any had bene needful that he should there make mention of the snuffers to purge the lights and here passe by the lightes themselues And to conclude that he shuld make mention there of the moates and here say nothing of the beames there recken vp the gnattes here kepe silence of the camel es What is this else but that which Aristotle sayth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to looke to smal things and not to looke to great which if it can not fall into the Lorde l t it be a shame to say that the chief piller and vpholder of the Church is not expressed in the scripture nor can not be concluded of it Io Whitgifte You haue before confessed Pag. 15. that certaine things are left to the order of the Church T. C. reth by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 bycause they are of that nature which are varied by times places persons other circumstāces 〈◊〉 which is sufficient to answere whatsoeuer you haue here spokē of the care ulnesse of the holy ghost in the truth it selfe aboue figures and tropes Although there is no doubte but the holy ghost was as carefull in the one as in the other and loued the one people as wel as the other and therefore it may be an argument à paribus but not minori as you seeme to make it I haue told you before also why god did more particularly prescribe euery ceremonie to the Israelites in the law than he hath done to his p ople in the Gospell God hath in his Gospell performed and fulfilled all the tropes and sig res of the law Iob 2 whatsoeuer Christ which is the Messias hath told vs all things that are necessary to saluation Iohn 20. and so is that place in the. 4. of Iohn to be vnderstanded We make not an Archbyshop necessary to saluation but profitable for the gouernment of the Church and therefore consonant to the word of God as shall be declared We know the Church of Christ is not builded vpon any man eyther as vpon foundation or pillers if we speake properly but vpon Christ himselfe and his worde which remaine vnmoueable we know also that the same Church may stand wit out the external help of man But yet hath God appointed functions in his Churche both ecclesiasticall and ciuill as meanes to kéepe it in externall peace di cipline and or er and though he hath not expressed the names yet hath he allowed the 〈◊〉 Among men the chiefe piller that vpholdeth the Churche is the Christian prince and magistrate and yet where haue you in the Gospell any such expresse mention made thereof as there is in the appointing of the tabernacle of Beesoms snuffers c. whiche e amples you vse in derision suche is your modestie and reuerence We knowe that all things nec ssary to saluation are much more plainly expressed in the Gospell than in the law We are also well assured that Christ in his word hath fully and playnly comprehended all things requisite to faith and good life but yet hath he committed certaine orders of ceremonies and kind of gouernmente to the disposition of his Churche the generall rules giuen in his worde being obserued and nothing being done contrary to his will and commaundement therein conteyned as haue proued before Chap. 1. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 63. Sect. 5. Moreouer (a) A 〈◊〉 ma or these ministeries without the which the Church is fully builded and broughte to perfec ion and complete vnitie are (b) An vntr minor not to be reteyned in the Church but without the ministeries of Archbyshop c. the Churche may be fully bu lded and brought to perfection therefore these ministeries are not to be reteyned Io. Whitgifte Your minor is vntrue For the Church in a kingdome where it hath an external gouernmēt where it includeth both good and bad where it is molested with contentious persons with schismes heresies c. cannot enioy complete vnitie nor be perfectly The maior tendeth to th shu ing out of the 〈◊〉 magistrate The Church must not only be brought to persection but also be preserued therem ▪ gouerned touching the externall forme and gouernment without such offices and gouernours Your maior also conteyneth daungerous doctrine including as well the christian magistrate
is at all times necessary not in the respect of policie and gouernment in consideration whereof he hath the name of an Archbyshop Chap. 1. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 64. Sect. 3. 4. 5. The last (*) You 〈◊〉 that against your selfe nov ▪ which before you were glad to vse as a 〈◊〉 for your selfe refuge is that the Apostle made mention of those functions whiche haue to doe with the ministring of the word and sacraments and not of those whiche haue to do with order and discipline Speake in good earnest had the Apostles (a) Here he confuteth his owne shadow nothing to do with discipline and order with what face can you take away the raines of gouernment out of the Apostles handes and put them in the Archby shops and Archdeacons hands what a peruersnesse is this that the ministeries inuented by men should be preferred to all the ministeries appointed and commaunded of God The Apostles for sooth haue in common with the Archbyshops and Archdeacons the power of ministring of the worde and of the Sacraments of binding and losing and thus farre as good as the Archbyshops and Archdeacons But for discipline and order the Apostles haue nothing to doe but herein Archbyshops and Archdeacons are aboue them and better than they Io. Whitgifte You wonderfully forget your selfe for it is your owne distinction as it appeareth Page 64. li. 5. in the. 5. line of the same page of your booke and thereby you shifted off the obiection of Deacons and Elders I know no man that taketh the raines of gouernmente out of the Apostles hāds and giueth it to any to whome it is not due by the word of God But is your meaning that the Apostles should now execute it themselues else Quorsum bae Surely you are so full of passions that you forget the matter I knowe the Apostles had in their time togyther with the ministerie of the word and sacraments power to exercise ecclesiasticall discipline and order But truly I vnderstand not your meaning for neuer any such thing as you here fancie entred once into my cogitation I rather say that bycause in the Apostles there was ioyned the administration of discipline with the ministerie of the word and sacraments therefore it may be so likewise now in Archbyshops and Byshops For that authoritie of discipline and gouernment that the Apostles had in their time is now for the most part executed by Archbyshops and Byshops which is the ouerthrow of your whole assertion Chap. 1. the. 22. Diuision T. C. Pag. 64. Sect. vlt. Now sir if I would follow your vaine of making so many exclamations as oh the impudencie oh the insolencie with twentie other such great ohes you see (*) Indeede 〈◊〉 haue made your selfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sion I haue occasion both here and else where But I would not gladly declaime especially when I shoulde dispute nor make outcries in stead of reasons Io. Whitgifte Where haue I vsed these exclamations or what cause haue you so suddenly to burst into them at this time except it be to set some countenance vppon your euill fauoured reasons But I will let you alone in such toyes and suffer you to play with your selfe Chap. 1. the. 23. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 1. But to come to this distinction I had thought before this time that the Apostles had bin the (*) Surely the man is in a dreame chiefe builders in setting vp the Church now I perceiue you make the archbyshops and Archdeacons the chiefe builders and the Apostles vnder carpenters or common masons to serue and to 1. Cor. 3 ▪ take the commaundement of the Archbyshop and Archdeacon And whereas it is saide that the ministeries which S. Paule speaketh of are in the words and sacraments binding and losing only and that there be other whiche are besides these occupied in the order and discipline of the Church of which number are Archbyshops and Archdeacons let vs marke a little what deepe diuinitie here is Io. Whitgifte Surely you wander you know not whether without doubt your mind whē you writte this was vpō some other thing than vpon my booke For wher haue I made this comparison betwixte the Apostles and Archbyshops or what haue I spoken sounding that way I would haue you to deale honestly and plainly If you meane the booke in latin whereof you after ward speake the words of that booke sounding any thing this way be these Archiepisiopi ab èpiscopis quoad ministerium non differunt omnes enim paripotestate docendi baptizandi ligandi soluendi praediti sunt sed quoad ordinem et politiam ordinis enim politiae causa quaedam vltra episcopos Archiepiscopis cencessa sunt Archbyshops differ not from byshops in respect of the ministerie for they are all endued with equall authoritie to teach to baptise to bind and lose but in respect of order and policie For some things are graunted to Archbyshops for order and policies sake aboue the byshops And further answering that place to the Ephesians it saith Apostolus eo in loco eos tantiòn ministr s ministeria enumerat quae in precibus verbo administratione sacramentorum versantur non eorum quae ad ordinem disciplinam instituuntur qualia sunt Archiepiscoporum Archidiaconorum The Apostle in that place doth only recite those ministers and ministeries which are occupied in prayer the word and the administration of the Sacraments not of them whiche are instituted for order and discipline suche as are the functions of Archbyshops and Archdeacons The which selfesame distinction for that place you vse Pag. 64. lin 5. in the beginning of the 64. Page of your bóoke these only words excepted qualia sunt Archiepiscoporum Archidiaconorum as I haue before shewed and your owne words declare And I am sure these words do not make the Archbyshops and Archdeacons chiefe builders and the Apostles vnder carpenters as it pleaseth you to collect but this is your modestie Chap. 1. the. 23. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 2. And first of all I would gladly aske them with what aduise they hauelaide on a greater * What burden who hath laid it on ▪ burden and weight of the Archbyshops and Archdeacons shoulders than the Apostles were able to sustaine Io. Whitgifte When you haue told where they haue laid on this greater burden and waight or what the burden and waight is that you say they haue laid on or who they be that haue layde it on then shall your question be answered in the meane time let this suffice the reader that you do but forge matter to encrease your volumes and to sport your selfe Chap. 1. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 3. Secondarily I aske with what boldnesse and vppon the confidence of what giftes any man dare take vpon him both that which the Apostles did and more to Io. Whitgifte To this I answer as to the former Chap. 1. the.
25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 3. Then I say that it is too too vnskilfully done to separate order and discipline from then that haue the ministerie of the woorde in hand as though the Church without Archbishops and Archdeacons ▪ were acōfused heape and a disordered lumpe when as S. Paule teacheth it to be without them a bodie consisting of all his partes and members comely knitte and ioyned together wherein nothing wanteth nor nothing is to much Io. Whitgifte Order and discipline are not separated from the ministery of the worde although all such Authoritie to execute discipline is not equally giuen to all as be ministers of the woorde haue not the like authoritie to execute them For as it is sayd in that Latine booke for order and policies sake more is graunted to the Archbishop than to the Bishop neither will any learned man so greatly maruayle at this seing the practise thereof was in the Apostles time For Paule had more large and ample authoritie than Timothie and Timothie than the resse of the ministers of Ephesus What if the Church without Archbishops and Archdeacons were perfect in S. Paules time and may be perfect at other times doth it therefore follow that the Church in no time or stare may haue them or rather that they be not necessarie at some time for the Churche In S. Paules time Apostles Prophets workers of miracles giftes of healing diuersitie of tongs were counted necessarie and principall partes of this body which not with standing you confesse now to be cut of and yet the bodie perfect So that you see this is no reason at all to say that the Church in S. Paules time was a perfect body without Archbyshops and Archdeacons Ergo they are not necessary in the Church of Christ. For I might as well reason thus The Church of Christe in S. Paules time was not perfect without Apostles Prophets doers of miracles giftes of healing diuersitie of tongs therefore it is not now perfect being without them And likewise it was then perfect without Christian magistrates The vnskilfull reasoning of T. C. openeth a bore to Anabaptisme Ergo Christian magistrates are to be remoued from the Church This kinde of reasoning as it is vnskilfull bicause it doth not distinguish the times of the Churche neither considereth necessarie circumstances so it is moste perilous and openeth a dore to Anabaptisme and confusion Moreouer I told you before that although this name Archbishop is not expressed The office of the Archbishop expressed in scripture in the Scripture yet is the office and function as it is euidently to be séene in the examples of Timothie and Titus yea and in the Apostles themselues whose office of planting Churches thorough the whole world is ceassed but their care for the good gouernment of those Churches which were planted and their authoritie ouer those Pastors whom they placed doth and must remayne in such places where there are Churches And therefore M. Bucer writing vpon the fourth to the Ephesians sayth Bucer in Eph. thus Miletum Presbiteros Ecclesiae Ephesinae conuocat tamen quia vnus inter eos praeerat alijs primam Ecclesiaecuram habebat in eo propriè residebat nomen Episcopi In the Actes Paule calleth the same men Bishops and Elders when as he called together the ministers of the Church of Ephesus vnto Miletum yet bicause one amongst them did rule ouer the reste and had the chiefe care of the Churche the name of Bishop did properly remayne in him So that this superioritie and iurisdiction which we speake of was euen in the Apostles time as it is more at large afterward proued Chap. 1. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 3. Doth it not pertayne to order that the Apostle sayth that God hath set first Apostles secondly Prophets thirdly teachers are not these wordes First Second Thirde differences of order if this be not order surely I know not what order is And yet neyther Archbishop nor Archdeacon author of this and it was kept also before they were hatched Io. Whitgifte Yes but will you haue the same order now then muste you haue Apostles and Prophets which you denie so that this order you sée is not perpetuall wherefore from time to time that order among the ministers of the woorde muste be obserued That order multe be obserued which is conuenient for the state that is most conuenient for the state of the Church Neyther is any agaynst such order but those that will not liue in order Did euer any man denie but that there was order in the Apostles tyme All this is but to make the reader beleue that some such thing is in that Latin booke when there is not one woorde whereof any such thing can be gathered is this your simplicitie Chap. 1. the. 27. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 4. Let vs see of discipline and gouernment which we may see to be cōmitted to those which haue the preaching of the worde and to others also which did not preach the worde when S. Paule 1. Tim. 5. sayth that the elders which gouerne well are worthie double honour especially those which trauell in the word where he appoynteth the gouernment to the ministers of the word to those also that were not ministers of the worde And therevpon it followeth that the ministers of the Church ar not seuered one from an other as you bycause some haue the ministration of the worde and Sacraments only and some with the administration of the Sacraments and worde haue also the gouernment and discipline in their handes but cleane contrarywise S. Paule distinguisheth them and sheweth that all the ministers in the Church haue the gouernment but all haue not the worde to handle so that he distinguisheth the ministery into that which is occupied in the worde and gouernment and into that which is occupied in the gouernment onely But in this distinction you do not onely forget S. Paule but you forget your selfe For if S. Paule speake in that place of those that meddle with the ministring of the worde and sacraments (*) You falsifie my woordes by displacing the worde only only why doth the bishop which is one of the ministers that S. Paule speaketh of beyng the same that pastor is why I say doth he meddle with the discipline and order of the Church seyng that belongeth not to him by your distinction why doth also the Archbyshop whom you say is a byshop meddle with it And thus you see you neede no other aduersary than your selfe to confute you Io. Whitgifte The reader should better haue vnderstoode what you had gone aboute if you had set before his eyes the wordes that you confute Now I scarce vnderstand your meaning my selfe You shote altogether without a marke I know no man that denieth discipline and gouernment to be committed to those that haue the preaching of the worde and to others also which preach not the worde But if
adde ministeries they may also take away for those both belong to one authoritie (b) The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but they can not take away those ministeries that God hath placed in his Churche therefore they cannot adde to those that are placed in the Churche And this foundation I thought first to lay or euer I entred into M. Doctours not reasons but authorities not of God but of men in confuting of which there will fall forth also other arguments against both these offices of Archbyshop and Archdeacon Io. Whitgifte Your whole booke is for the moste parte buylded vpon that false founded argument The Replie grounded vpō the petition of the principle that is called Petitio principij For this will not be graunted vnto you which you haue so oftentimes repeated and wherevpon all your arguments are grounded that to appoynt Archbyshops or Archdeacons is to appoynt a new ministery It is as I tolde you before but to kéepe an order in the ministery and in the Churche and to execute that office of gouernment which the Apostles themselues did When Hierome sayde That for the auoyding of Schismes the ministers appoynted one among themselues to gouerne the rest Did he meane that they instituted a new ministerie A man may sée by this how vnable you are to defend your cause seing you are enforced to frame principles vnto your selfe agaynst the which you may reason that the ignorant reader may thinke your quarell to be iuste But nowe to your argument The Maior is not true for men may adde ministeries to those that be and breake not the will and commaundement of God bicause they may be helpes and furtheraunces to those ministeries that God hath appoynted But he can not take away such ministeries as God hath placed in his Churche to be perpetuall without breache of his will and commaundement Moreouer besides those ministeries that God hath appoynted in his woorde as necessary at all times there may be some added that be cōuenient for some times and yet the Churche that hath authoritie to adde these hath not the lyke authoritie to take awaye the other So that your Maior lacketh proofe Your Minor also is ambiguous for man can not take away those ministeries that God hath appoynted to be perpetuall in the Churche but he may take away those that be but temporall as occasion serueth If your foūdation be no sounder than this that you haue hitherto layde surely your buylding cannot long stande and M. Doctors authorities may well ynough encounter with all your reasons That the names of Metropolitane Archbishop c. be not Antichristian Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 65. Sect. 1. Firste therefore I proue that the names of Metropolitane and The antiquitie of Archbishops Archbishop c. be not Antichristian names that is names inuented by Antichrist but most aūciēt yea that they were in the Church lōg before the Gospell was publiquely embraced by any Prince or in any kingdome Polidore Virgil lib. 4. De inuentoribus rerum Cap. 12. saith that Clement in his boke entituled Compēdiarium Christianae religionis testifieth that the Apostle Peter did in euery Prouince appoynt one Archbyshop whom all other Byshops of the same prouince shoulde obey He sayth also that the same Archbishop was called Primas Patriarcha and Metropolitanus Peter was not Antichrist Ergo the name of an Archbishop is no Antichristian name T. C. Pag. 66. Sect. 4. 5. 6. 7. Pag. 67. Sect. 1. 2. Now I will come to the examining of your witnesses whereof some of them are so bored in the eares and branded in their foreheades that no man neede to feare any credite they shall gette before any iudge wheresoeuer or before whom soeuer they come but in the Romish courte and the Papistes onely excepted For to let go Polidore Uirgile bycause whatsoeuer he sayth he sayth of the credite of another let vs come to Clement which is the author of this you speake And what is he Is there any so blind that knoweth not that this was nothing lesse than Clement of whom S. Paule speaketh and which some thinke was the first Bishop of Rome ordeined by Peter and Phil. 4. Tertul. de praescript aduers. haeret not rather a wicked helhounde into whome the Lorde had sent Satan to be a lying spirite in his mouth to deceiue them for their vnthankful receyuing of the gospell And he must witnesse for the Archbishop a worthie witnesse For as all that Popish Hierarchie came out of the bottomlesse pit of hell so to vpholde the Archbishop the necke of it wherevpon the Romish monster standeth are raysed vp from hell bastards Clemens and Anacletus and indeede as it may appeare the very naturall sonnes of Satan and the sworne souldiours of Antichrist A man would haue thought that the Bishop of Salisburie M. Iuel had so pulled of the painting of the face of this Clement that all good men woulde haue had him in detestation so farre of would they haue bene to haue alledged out of him to proue any thing that is in controuersie The Bishop alledgeth both Eusebius and S. Hierome to proue that none of those woorkes In the replie to M. Hard. which go in his name are his and although the proofes be strong which the Bishop vseth beeing the witnesse of vnsuspected witnesses yet bicause the law although it allow two witnesses notwithstanding doth like the better of three I will set downe here also Ireneus which was a great while before them both and followed hard after the time of the true and vncounterfeyte Clement Li. 3. cap. 3. and therefore coulde best tell of him and of his wrytings and yet he maketh mention but of one Epistle which vpō occasion amongst the Corinthians he wrote to them Indeed in an other place of that booke he sheweth that it is verie probable that Clementalso eyther wrote or turned the Epistle to the Hebrues Nowe if that Epistle to the Counthes were extant we shoulde easily see by comparing those that are nowe in his name wyth that what a misshapen thing this is And if so be that Ireneus coniecture be good that Clement was the authour or interpreter of the Epstle to the Hebrues then what horrible iniurie is done to the holy Ghost while the same is supposed the wryter of thys booke to the Hebrues which is the authour of suche beggerie as thys Clement brought into the worlde And I pray you do you holde that it is the true Christian religion which that booke conteyneth Could none of these considerations driue you from the testimonie of this Clement It goeth verie harde with the Archbishop when these Clements and Anacletusses must be brought to vnderprop him But what if there be no such booke as this is which you name when you say in his booke intituled Compendiarium religionis Christianae it is like you know not him nor what he saith when you cannot tell so much as his name
be obserued c. And M. Foxe tom 1. Pag. 12. reporting these two Canons sayth thus First in the Councell of M. Foxe Nice which was the yeare of our Lorde 340. and in the sixt Canon of the sayde Councell we finde it is so decreed that in euery Prouince or Precinct some one Church Byshop of the same was appoynted set vp to haue the inspection regiment of other Churches about him Secundum morem antiquum that is after the auncient custome as the wordes of the Councell do purport So that the Byshop of Alexandria shoulde haue power of Libia and Pentapolis in Egipt for as much as the Byshop of the Citie of Rome hath the like or same manner Nowe if I might as safely alleage the Canons of the Apostles as you doe then coulde I tell you that in the. 33. Canon which Canon is alleaged as good authoritie against the supremacie of the Byshop of Rome you shall finde Archbyshops For that Canon setting an order among Bishops willeth the Byshops of euery nation to knowe their first or chiefe Byshop and him to be taken for the head of them The wordes of the Canon be these Cuiusque gentis Episcopos oportet sc re quisnam Cano. Apo. 33. alias 35. inter ipsos primus sit habereque ipsum quodammodo pro capite neque sine illius voluntate quicquam agere insolitum The Bishops of euery countrie must knowe who is chiefe among them and must take him as it were for their head neyther muste they doe any vnaccustomed thing without his will and euery one must doe those things alone by him selfe which belong to his parishe and to the places that be vnder him But neither must he do any thing without the will of all them for so shall concorde be kept and God shall be glorified through our Lord in the holy Ghost Now I pray you tell me what difference there is betwixt the first or chiefe Byshop or head of the reste and Archbyshop And least you shoulde thinke this Canon to be of small force as suspected you shall heare it almost verbatim repeated and confirmed by the Councell of Antioche In euery countrey it is conuenient that Concil Antioc Can. 9. the Byshops should knowe that their Metropolitane Byshop beareth the care of the whole Prouince VVherefore let all those that haue any businesse repaire to the Metropolitane citie And for this cause it is thought good that he both shoulde excell in honour and that the other Bishops do no vnaccustomed thing without him according to the auncient rule appointed of our fathers sauing those things onely which belong to their owne Diocesse and to the places that are vnder them For euery Byshop hath power ouer his owne parishe to rule them according to reuerence meete for euerye one and to prouide for all the countrey that are vnder his citie so that he ordeyne both Priests and Deacons and conteine all things with his iudgement But further let him attempt nothing without the Metropolitane neither let the Metropolitane do any thing without the aduise of the other You haue now the Canon of the Apostles confirming Archbyshops and the Councell of Nyce Antioche alleaging olde custome for them and confirming them also And a little before In the. 7. Diuision before I declared vnto you out of M. Foxe that there were Archbyshops here in England Anno. 180. So that their fall cannot be very great Chap. 2. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3. What no mention of him in Theophilus Bishop of Antioche none in Ignatius none in Clemens Alexandrinus none in Iustine Martyr in Ireneus in Tertullian in Origine in Cyprian none in all those olde Historiographers oute of the which Eusebius gathereth his storie was it for his basenesse and smalnesse that he coulde not be seene among the Byshops Elders and Deacons beyng the chiefe and principall of them all Can the Cedar of Libanon be hyd among y e Boxe trees Aristotle in his Rhethoricke ad Theodecten sayth that it is a token of contempt to forget the name of an other Belike therefore if there were any Archbyshop he had no chaire in the Churche but was as it seemeth digging at the metalles for otherwyse they that haue filled their booke with the often mentioning of Byshops would haue no doubt remembred him Io. Whitgifte And what then is not the Councell of Nice and of Antioche of as good credite as all these Shall not Athanasius Epiphanius Ambrose Hierome Chrysostome Sozomene c. counteruaile them and yet if you had read these authors you might haue learned that in the most of them the office of an Archbyshop is expressed as my answere following declareth But still you vse negatiue reasons ab authoritate and that humane Your tauntes and frumpes I let passe they are confutation sufficient to them selues Chap. 2. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Page 70. Sect. 3. 4. But let vs heare what the Councell of Nyce hath for these titles In the sixth Canon mention is made of a Metropolitane Byshop what is that to the Metropolitane which nowe is eyther to the name or to the office Of the office it shall appeare afterwardes In the name I thinke there is a great difference betwene a Metropolitane Byshop and Metropolitane of England or of all England A Metropolitane Byshop was nothing else but a Byshop of that place which it pleased the Emperor or Magistrate to make the chiefe citie of the Diocesse or shire aad as for this name (*) An vntruth contrarie to the manifest wordes of the Councell of Nice it maketh no more difference betwene Byshop and Byshop than when I say a Minister of London and a Minister of Nuington There is no man that is well aduised which will gather of this saying that there is as great difference in preheminence betwene those two Ministers as is betwene London and Nuington For his office and preheminence we shall see hereafter Io. Whitgifte For the full answering of this it shall be sufficient to set downe the iudgement of certaine of the learned writers of our time touching the true meaning of that Canon The iudgement of learned writers of the. 6. can con N cem Caluine of the Councell of Nyce as the practise of the Church before that time at that tyme and since that time haue expounded it M. Caluine in his Institutions Chap. 8. Sect 54. sayth thus That euery prouince had among their Byshops an Archbyshop And that the Councel of Nice did appoynt Patriarkes which should be in order and dignitie aboue Archbyshops it was for the preseruation of discipline M. Caluine sayth the Councell of Nyce did appoint Patriarkes which shoulde be in order and dignitie aboue Archbyshops He sayth also that euery Prouince had among their Byshops an Archbyshop Il yricus in his cataloge testium veritatis speaking of this Councel sayth thus Constituit Illyricus quoque haec Synodus vt singularum
prouinciarum Metropolitani potestatem habeant in suos Episcopos sacerdotes ecclesias Alexandrinus in Aegypto Antiochenus in Syria c. This Synode also appoynted that the Metropolitanes of euery prouince shoulde haue authoritie ouer their Byshops Priestes and Churches The Byshop of Alexandria in Egypt and the Byshop of Antioche in Syria c. And in his booke that he entituleth a refutation of the innectiue of Brunus against the Centuries he doth interprete this Canon on this manner Here we see plainely that the Nicene Councell first in this Canon doth giue a primacie to the Metropolitane in euery Prouince and doth make subiecte vnto him all the Byshops and Priestes of his prouince Moreouer that it maketh all the Metropolitane Byshops as of Alexandria Rome and Antioche and of other Prouinces altogether of equall authoritie amongst them selues And last that the subiectes if that I may so say of an other may not appeale to any other Metropolitane and after this manner the sixth Councell of Carthage doth vnderstande alleage and vrge the foresaid Canon in the former Epistle M. Foxe who hath very diligently and faithfully laboured in this matter and searched out the truth of it as learnedly as I knowe any man to haue done in his firste Tom. Pag. 11. writeth thus Then followed the Councell of Nyce wherein it was decreed M. Foxe that throughout the vniuersitie of Christes Churche which was nowe farre spred ouer the world certeine Prouinces and Precinctes to the number of foure were appoynted euery one to haue his head Churche and chiefe Byshop called them Metropolitanes or Patriarkes to haue the ouersight of such Churches as did lye about him and Pag. 12. he speaketh to the same effecte as it may appeare in his wordes which I haue before recited And in the same Page he saith VVherefore as we must needes graunt the Byshop of Rome to be called a Metropolitane or an Archbyshop by the Councell of Nyce so we will not greatly sticke in this also to haue him numbred with Patriarkes or Primates c. But the very wordes of the Canon it selfe doth condemne you of a great ouersight T. C. condemned of vn truth by the words of the Canon Can. 6. For this is the Canon antiqua consuetudo seruetur per Aegyptū Libyam Pentapolim ita vt Alexandrinus Episcopus horum omnium habeat potestatem c. Let the auncient custome be kept throughout Egypt Libya and Pentapolis that the Byshop of Alexandria haue the gouernment of all these c. as is said before How say you nowe is not this for the name and for the office also of our Metropolitanes and Archbyshops had not they iurisdiction of whole Prouinces as ours haue The authoritie of tropo ane were not all other Byshops and Ministers of the Church subiect to them as they be to ours were not they Metropolitanes of Prouinces and countreys as ours be And is this no more to differ than a Minister of London and a Minister of Nuington Truely I maruaile that you can be caryed vnto so manifest vntruthes and palpable errors But for the further declaration of the authoritie of a Metropolitane Byshop though this which I haue said be sufficient it may please you to take paines to peruse in the Con. Antioc Councell of Antioche the. 9. Canon Per singulas prouincias Episcopos conuenit nosse Metropolitanum Episcopum solicitudinem totius prouinciae gerere In euerye prouince it is conuenient that Byshops should know that the Metropolitane Byshop hath the caryng for of the vvhole prouince c. as is mentioned before in the first Canon of the Councell of Ephesus It is also euident that the Metropolitane of the Prouince for so is he there called had authoritie ouer all the Bishops in the same prouince But to make short bycause I shall haue other occasion to speake of this matter M. Foxe in the treatise before recited concludeth thus VVhereby it is to be concluded that to be false that Clement and Anacletus and Anicetus be reported but falsly to put a difference betwene Primates or Patriarkes Metropolitanes or Archbyshops whereas by sufficient authoritie 〈◊〉 is to be proued that in the olde Churche both Primates first Byshops Byshops of the firste seate Patriarkes Metropolitanes Byshops of the mother Citie and Archbyshops were all one First that Primates and Metropolitanes were both one is before declared in the Canons of the Apostles and by the Councel of Antioche aforesayd The same doth Vilierius Vilierius affirme in his booke de statu primitiuae ecclesiae Fol. 26. and proueth it out of Socrates verye manifestly that is that Metropolitanes and Patriarkes were all one at the first I am not ignorant but there is some controuersie among both the Ciuilians and Canonistes whether a Metropolitane or an Archbyshop be all one or no but in the ende this is the opinion of the most so farre as I can reade or learne that they be idem re the same in déede but differ nomine in name For he is called an Archbyshop in respect of the other Byshops of whom he is the chiefe But he is called Metropolitane in respecte of the Cities that be within his Prouince But of Archbyshops and Metropolitanes more must be spoken hereafter Chap. 2. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Page 70. Sect. vlt. There are alleaged to proue the names of Archbishops Patriarkes Archdeacons the. 13. 25. 26. and. 27. Canons of the Councell of Nice For the. 25. 26. and. 27. there are no suche Canons of that Councell and although there be a thirtenth Canon there is no worde of Patriarke or Archdeacon there conteined And I maruaile with what shame you can thrust vpon vs these (*) These Canons differ onely in number and not in matter from those that are not counterfeit counterfeite Canons which come out of the Popes mint yea and which are not to e founde Theodorete saith that there are but twentie Canons of the Councell of Nyce and those twentie are in the ome of the Councels and in those there is no mention of any Patriarke Archbyshop Archdeacon Li. 1. cap. 8. Li. 1. cap. 6. Ruffine also remembreth 22. Canons very little differing from those other twentie but in length in none of those are founde any of these names of Archbishop Archdeacon or Patriarke and it is as (a) Not so for that is repugnant to the true Canon therfore coūterfeit lawfull for M. Harding to allcage the. 44. Canon of the Councell of Nyce to proue the Supremacie of the Pope of Rome as it is for M. Doctor Whitgifte to alleage the. 25. 26. 27. to proue the name of Archbyshop Archdeacon Patriarke for they are all of one stampe and haue lyke authoritie Io. Whitgifte I will not greatly sticke in the defense of those Canons the fixth the seuenth Canō do sufficiently verifie all that I haue alleaged out of the other as is declared not onely
action ended had no more authoritie than the rest Io. Whitgifte If you had read any auncient storie or father yea if you had but perused M. Caluines Institutions the. 8. Chapter or any writer intreating of this matter you would neuer haue vttered this vaine coniecture nor shewed so manifest a token of greate ignorance and no reading For it shall appeare by sufficient testimonie that neyther the name nor office of an Archbyshop was any thing at all straimge in this time And the authors of the Centuries Cent. 4. can tell you that Ambrose himselfe was Metropolitanus Ambrose a Metropolitane Cent. 4. cap. 10 plurium coniunctarum ecclesiarum administratione fungens A Metropolitane gouerning many Churches adioyning together Your coniecture that this Archbishop should be no other than he which for the time ruled the action wherin Byshops were ordeined and after the action ended had no more authoritie than the rest is a méere phansie of your owne contrarie to all authoritie and withoute any grounde or similitude of reason and yet you often repeate it and make it the foundation of this your building But let vs heare your coniectures Chap. 2. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 4. And I am moued so to thinke First bicause it is not like that one onely ordeyned Byshops being contrarie to the olde Canons of the best Councels but that there were other and that this whō Ambrose calleth Archbyshop did gather the voyces c. Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed before that it was not so strange at this time for the Byshop alone to ordeine Ministers And yet Ambrose in this place signifieth that the people had Ambrose somewhat to doe in this matter for he calleth them populum nugacem indoctum qui talem sibi asciuerunt sacerdotem a people that trifeleth and is vnlearned that hath gotten vnto them such a priest But I pray you where is now your distinction betwixt election ordination For Ambrose speaketh in this place of ordeyning and not of electing If you wyll néedes so distinguishe them that they maye not bée at any tyme nor in any place confounded then haue you answered youre selfe here and wyth one coniecture ouerthrowne an other But howesoeuer it is coniectures can not preuayle agaynst so manyfest a truthe being so silly coniectures For tell mée where you euer redde that he was called an Archbishop that did only gather the voyces or that this name was attributed to any during the action only and no longer This is verie newe Diuinitie vnhearde of in any good Authour that I haue readde or can heare of Chap. 2. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 5. Secondly bycause it was verie vnlyke that there was any absolutely aboue S. Ambrose in those partes where he complayneth of euill bishops or ministers made Io. Whitgifte Why to whom or for whom did Ambrose write this booke for his owne prouince or Diocesse only therein are you deceyued that you thinke Ambrose to haue written this booke for his owne Prouince onely when he writte it to profite the whole Churche as it may appeare in the fyrst Chapter of that Booke Neither doth he complaine of suche euill Bishoppes or ministers as were vnder him for then should he haue complayned of himselfe béeyng theyr Metropolitane but of suche he complayneth as were in other places and Prouinces as may be séene by these wordes of his Ita vt videas in Ecclesia passim quos non merita sed pecuniae ad Episcopatus De dig Sacer cap. 5. ordinem prouexerunt So that a man maye see euery where in the Churche suche as are promoted to the order of a Bishop not by desertes but by money and therefore this coniecture is soone answered Chap. 2. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 6. Thirdly for that Ambrose in an other place which you after cite deuidyng all the Church into the cleargie and laytie dothe subdeuide the cleargie into Byshoppes Elders and Deacons and therefore it is not lyke that there was any which had any continuall function of archebyshoppe But as he was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or leader of the daunce which commeth fyrst and after commyng in agayne in the seconde or thyrde place is no more so called so that bishop was called Archebishop which for the time present did gather the voyces of the rest of the bishops which he by and by layde downe with the dissoluyng of the meetyng And that thys is not my coniecture only that there was no ordinarye or absolute Archebishop (*) Where or which centurie let the Centuries be seene (a) Vntruth whych alledge that place of Ambrose to proue that the office of an archebishop was not then come into the Churche which was foure hundred yeares after Christ and more also Io. Whitgifte This is a dauncing deuise in déede withoute any shadow of truthe as it maye appeare by that whiche already is alleadged and shall do more and more by that which followeth You are maruellous circumspect in your quotations least you shoulde be tripped and therefore you saye let the Centuries be seene but you tell not where Surely you doe verie vntruely reporte the Centuries for I haue redde them where they doe alleadge that place of Ambrose and there is not to be founde any suche matter but the cleane contrarie as is to be séene in that place Cent. 4 cap. 7. by you alleadged of the fourth Cent. the wordes be these Episcopi Metropolitani dicebantur à praecipuis seu primarijs ciuitatibus sicut Basilium Metropolitanū Capadocū Zozomenus vocat lib. 3. cap. 16. Et Archiepiscopi qualem Seleuciae fuisse Simeonem idem retulit lib. 2. cap. 8. Patriarcha totius alicuius prouinciae diceba ur Episcopus vt Socrates indica Lib. 5. cap. 8. Bishoppes and Metropolianes were named of the chiefe and princip ll Cities as Zozomenus calleth Basile the Metropolitane of Cappadocia lib. 3. cap. 16. and Archebishoppes suche as he reporteth that Simeon was of Seleucia lib. 2. cap. 8. Patriarke of some whole prouince was called a Bishop as Socrates sheweth lib. 5. cap. 8. Wherefore it is too much boldnesse in you to auouche so manyfest vntruths Neyther is it any maruel though you quote not the places for forgerie séeketh corners Forgerie seeketh corn rs And although that whiche hath bin hytherto alleadged out of the Councells of Nice and Antioche with the iudgemente of so manie learned men interpretyng the same might serue to perswade any reasonable man that the office and name of Archebishoppe and Metropolitane is bothe of greate antiquitie and not for one action onely or a dauncyng office as you woulde haue it but fixed and permanent yet bycause I haue to doe wyth quarellers before I goe any further in confuting I will 〈◊〉 downe the iudgement of other aunciente and famous wryters also who allowe bothe of these names and offices And fyrste I will recite suche as haue the names expressed
as you are I could say that this sleight handling of the Archdeacon and sweating so much aboute the Archbyshop is there vpon that you would be loth to come from being Deane to be an Archdeacon and you liue in some hope of being Archbyshop but I will not enter so farre and surely for any thing that I see you mighte haue trussed vp the Archbyshop as shorte as you do the Archdeacon for they stād vpon one pinne and those reasons which establish the one establish the other Whervpon also commeth to passe that all those reasons which were before alledged against the Archbyshop may be drawen against the Archdeacon Io. Whitgifte The vntoward dealing of the replier his vnsufficiēt answer My purpose in that place is as you mighte haue séene if you woulde to proue that the names of Archbyshops Archdeacon c. be not Antichristian names that is names inuented by Antichriste but most auncient for those be my very words as I haue proued that to be most true in Metrapolitanes and Archbyshops by shewing that they were in the Churche before the Pope was Antichrist so I do the like of Archdeacons And where I haue brought in fiue witnesses you say I haue brought in fower Damasus Hierome Sixtus Sozomene and Socrates be in number fiue and of these fiue you haue answered only two and that after your vsuall manner by reiecting the Authors What is falsely attributed to Damasus in other matters is no answer to this that he reporteth of Archdeacons whiche also the third Centurie alledgeth as true And though he were Byshop of Rome yet was he a vertuous learned and godly Byshop So was Sixtus in like manner who liued Byshop of Rome Anno. 265. So that Damasus was neyther the first nor the best For Sixtus was martyred for the Gospell so was not Damasus They speake as much for Archdeacons as I require that is that their names were not inuented by Antichrist and if there were then no such tyrannie in the Churche of Rome as you here mislike and yet this name in that Church it is not like to be a tyrannicall name But I maruaile you will deale so barely in this matter knewing that Hierome who liued in Damasus his time hathe this name Archdeacon oftner than twise or thrise Without doubt you do not well consider what you write This Answer of yours was neuer as yet approued of any learned mā For what if Eusebius make mention of Subdeacons Acoluthes c. which were peraduenture profitable offices in the Church at that time doth it therefore follow that it is vnlawfull to haue Archdeacons I conclude no necessitie of the Archdeacon but I conclude hys antiquitie and bycause you cannot answer that you fall to scoffing and vnséemely iesting as your manner is and so do you shift off thrée of my witnesses Chap. 2. the. 30. Diuision T. C. Pag. 72. lin 2. Sect. 1. Hauing therefore before proued the vnlawfulnesse of them I will here set downe the differēce betweene those Archdeacons that were in times past and those whiche are nowe whereby it may appeare they are nothing like but in name They were no ministers as appeareth in (*) Vntruth no such thing appeareth Sozomene ours are Io. Whitgifte What one reason haue you vsed to proue the vnlawfulnesse of them If you meane such reasons as you haue against Archbyshops they be fully answered Not one word is there in the seuenth booke and nineteenth Chapter of Sozomene to proue that Archdeacons eyther then were not or now may not be ministers For all that he speaketh in that chapter is this And this also is a strange thing in the Church of Alexandria whiles the Gospells are a reading the Byshop doth not rise vp which I haue hard of others This holy booke a Monke that is an Archdeacon readeth there in other places Deacons in many Churches the priests only but in principall feasts Byshops Howe you can conclude that Archdeacons were not then ministers by any thing here spoken surely I know not for if you meane bycause he saith that in some churches only Priests did reade you can no more thereof conclude that Archdeacons were then no Priests than you may that they were no Deacons or that Byshops be no Priestes neyther is it necessary that they shoulde be nowe ministers it is sufficiente if they be Deacons yet may they be ministers and méete it is that they should so be and you cannot proue the contrary Chap. 2. the. 31. Diuision T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 2. They were tyed to a certaine Church and were called Archdeacon of such a congregation or Con. Vrbinum Sozo 7. lib. cap. 19. Church ours are tyed to none but are called Archdeacons of such a shire Io. Whitgifte There is no other words in that booke and chap. of Sozomene touching Archdeacons than these whiche I haue before recited what they make for your purpose let the reader iudge Your Vrbanum Concilium is very obscure for there is none such to be found in all the volumes of Councels But to put you out of doubt we haue no Archdeacons but such as be tyed to one Church though they haue the names sometimes of the Shire wherein their iurisdiction lyeth Chap. 2. the. 32. Diuision T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 3. Ierom. to Euagri They were chosen by all the deacons of the Church where they be Archdeacons ours are appointed by one man and which is no Deacon Io. Whitgifte There can be no such custome gathered of Hieroms words in that place only he vsing an example to declare what the manner of choosing their Byshop was in the Church of Alexandria saith that they elected one from among themselues whome they placing in an higher roome called him a Byshop as if the souldiers should choose their captayne or Deacons should choose one of them whome they know to be painfull and name him archdeacon You can no more hereof conclude that it was then vsuall for deacons to choose their Archdeacon than you may that it was also vsual for souldiers to choose their captaine neyther can you here by proue that our Archdeacons are not like vnto theirs if this were true no more than you can that our Captaines are not like vnto theirs bycause the Souldiers do not choose them But what create matter is it if they were then chosen by Deacons and be not so now and doth not the Byshop appoynt them and is not the Byshop more than a Deacon Chap. 2. the. 33. Diuision Con. Nicen can 14. and after Ruf. 20 T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 4. They were subiect to the minister of the word ours are aboue them and rule ouer them Io. Whitgifte There is not one word of Archdeacons in the fourtaenth Canon of the Councell of Nice nor in the 20. after Ruffine and therefore you do but abuse the reader That which is in that place is spoken of Deacons onely and is at this day obserued in this
Church Chap. 2. the. 34. Diuision Vntruthes for neyther of them speaketh of Atchdeacons in those places alledged to this purpose T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 5. Ierom. ad Euag. Aug. quaest noui vet teit q. 101. It was counted to them great arrogancie if they preferred themselues to any minister or elder of the Churche ours will not take the best ministers of the Church as their equals If therefore Archdeacons will haue any benefite by the Archdeacons of old time it is meete they shoulde content themselues with that place which they were in Io. Whitgifte No such thing is in that epistle of Hierome only he speaketh of deacons touching that matter whome he also she weth in the Church of Rome to haue bin in certaine points preferred before ministers neyther is there one word of Archdeacons in that booke of Augustines but only of Deacons You must learne to make a distinction betwixt an Archdeacon and a Deacon and not to make the reader beléeue that the authors you quote in the margente speake of Archdeacons when they onely speake of Deacons My witnesses how few so euer they be are sufficiente to withstand thys cowardly assault of yours wherein there is neyther strength nor truth Chap. 2. the. 35. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 67. Sect. 3. Augustine in his first booke de moribus ecclesiae Catholicae maketh mention of Deanes Deanes and their offices T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 6. As for the office of a deane as it is vsed with vs it is therefore (*) Vntruthes vnlawfull for that he being minister hath (*) Vntruthes noseuerall charge or Congregation appointed wherein he may exercise his ministerie and (*) Vntruthes for that he is ruler and as it were master of diuers other ministers in his Colledge which likewise haue no seuerall charges of congregatiōs and for that which is most intollerable both he himselfe oftentimes hauing a seuerall Church or benefice as they call it is vnder the coloure of his deaneship absent from his Church and suffereth also those that are vnderneath him to be likewise absent from their Churches And whereas M. Doctor alledgeth S. Augustine to proue this office to be auncient indeede the name is there found but besides the name not one propertie of that deane which we haue For Augustine speaking of the monks of those dayes saythe that the money which they gate with the labor of their hands they gaue to their deane which did prouide them meate and drinke and cloth and all things necessary for them So that their monkes shoulde not be drawen away from their studies and meditations through the care of worldly things So that this Deane which he speaketh of was seruaunte and stewarde and cater to the Monks and therefore only called Deane bycause he was steward and cater to ten Monks Now let it be seene what Augustines deane maketh for the deane which is theirs and what faith and trust M. Doctor vseth in reciting of the old fathers Io. Whitgifte All thys is but your owne sansies taken for principles and groundes For fyrste it is vntrue that euery Minister muste of necessitie haue some seuerall Tractat. 4. charge as I haue declared before Secondly it is as vntrue that a Deane hathe no seuerall charge or congregation wherein to exercise his ministerie For there is no Cathedrall Churche withoute a congregation and charge The third that followeth is builded of the same groundes that these two fyrste be and may as well be spoken agaynste the masterships of suche Colledges in the vniuersities wherein any preachers or ministers bée maynteyned Whyche argueth that you meane the same to Colledges that you doe to Cathedrall Churches and that you woulde haue ministers frée from subiection Last of all that whyche you say is most intellerable you speake withoute any tolerable reason For Master Deane and hys Prebendaries do more good both in the Churche of Englande generally and in their seuerall Churches particularly and take more paines in one moneth than you and your companions whereof some notwithstanding are contente without doing any dutie at all to enioy prebendes more than one in one whole yeare And if eyther Master Deane or the Prebendaries neglect their dueties there be superiours and lawes to reforme them The place of Augustine proueth the name of a Deane it proueth a College and societie whereof he is Deane it argueth a superioritie and gouernmente for he saith they be called Decani ideò quòd sint denis praepositi Deanes bycause they are set ouer tenne it sheweth an office to care and prouide for them and sée that they haue all thynges necessary it declareth dayly exercise of praying and teaching for he addeth thus Conueniunt autem diei tempore extremo de suis quisque habitaculis dum adhuc ieiuni sunt ad audiendum illum patrem conueniunt ad singulos patres terna ad minimum hominum milia Nam etiam multò numerosiores sub vno agunt They come togyther at night euery man from his lodging whilest yet they are fasting to heare that father and they Aug. de moribus ecclesiae come togyther to euery father three thousand men at the least for a greate meanie moe liue vnder one c. Now sir if God of his singular goodnesse hathe to the greate and vnspeakeable benefyte of his Churche moued the harts of princes and men of wealth so to indue suche places with possessions and reuenewes that they hauing thynges necessary prouided for them may bestow that tyme in studying praying preaching and other godly exercises whiche these that Sainct Augustine speaketh of did in labouring with their handes is Master Deanes name or office euer the woorse howsoeuer it pleaseth you to terme these companies that Sainct Augustine héere speaketh of Yet were they Godly societies and do very aptly set foorth the vtilitie and the antiquitie of Churches and Colledges the Deanes and Masters whereof haue indéede the chiefe and speciall care of all externall things perteyning to them whether it be landes prouisions or any thing else that is necessary And therefore the liker to Sainct Augustines Deane and the place more aptly alledged to proue the antiquitie of this name and office If Master Doctor should vse no more faith in reciting the Doctors than you do I woulde he were whipped at the crosse in Cheape Chap. 2. the. 36. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag 67. Sect. 4. Nytherto Antichrist had not inuaded the Church of Rome But what shoulde I trouble you with any more authorities those that be learned may easily vnderstand that these names Metropolitane Archbyshop Archdeacon Primate Patriarke and suche lyke be most auncient and approued of the eldest best and worthyest Councells fathers and writers T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 7. And vnto the end that these testimonies might be more autenticall and haue some waighte in them Master Doctor addeth that hitherto Antichrist had not inuaded the seate of Rome You shall
haue much a do to proue that Antichrist had not inuaded the sce of Rome when your Clement Anaclete Anicete and Damasus wrote nay it is most certayne that then he had possessed it but what is that to the purpose although there was no one singular head appeared or lifted vp yet corruptiō of doctrine of the sacraments hurtful ceremonies dominion pompe of y e Cleargie new orders functions of y e ministerie which were the hāds that pulled him y e feete which brought him the shoulders that lifted and heaued hym vp into that seat were in the Church Neither while you do thus speake do you seeme to remember that this monster needed not nine monethes but almost nine hundred yeares to be framed and fashioned or euer he could with all his parts be brought to light And althoughe the louer of this Antichristian building were not set vp yet the foundations thereof being secretly and vnder the grounde laid in the Apostles time you might easily know that in those times that you spake of y e building was wonderfully aduaunced growen very high and being a very daungerous thing to ground any order or pollicie of the Churche vpon men at all which in deede ought to haue their standing vpon the doctrine and orders of the Apostles I wyll shew what great iniurie M. Doctor doth to send vs for our examples and patterns of gouernment to these times which he doth dicette vs vnto Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes the same mighte be also spoken of the Apostles times For Antichrist began in the Apostles tunes 2. Thess. 2. 1. Io. 2. enen then Paul speaking of Antichrist sayd Nam mysterium nuncagit iniquitatis for the mysterie of iniquitie doth already worke And S. Iohn sayd that there then began to be many Antichristes but doth this detract any thing from the truth taught in that time or shall we therfore refuse to take such examples of it as is conuenient for our time There is no man of learning and modestie which will without manifest proofe condemne any order especially touching the gouernment of the Churche that was vsed and allowed during the time of the primitiue Church which was the next 500. yéeres after Christ within the which time most of my authorities are conteined Neyther was there any functiō or office brought into the Church during al that time allowed by any generall Councel or credible writer which was not most meete for that time and allowable by the word of God I graunt that Antichrist was working all this time and grewe more and more for else could there neuer haue bene so many sectes and heresies from time to tyme spred in the Church which was the cause of so many singular and notable Councels so many profitable and necessary bookes written by such learned and godly Doctors as did with might and maine striue against them Out of the which Councels and fathers and best witnesses what was done in those times I haue fetched my proofes euen out of them I say that did with might and maine labour to kepe out Antichrist from the possession of the Church and therefore not to be suspected to consent to Antichrist I knowe that those sectes and heresies gaue strength vnto Antichriste and at the length were one speciall meanes of placing him in his throne euen as I am also perswaded Antichrist worketh in England by contentious persons that he worketh as effectually at this daye by your styrres and contentions wherby he hath and will more preuaile against this Church of England than by any other meanes whatsoeuer Therefore it behoueth you to take héede how you deuide the armie of Christ which should vnanimiter fight against that Antichrist As for vs we must follow the examples of those good fathers and labour accordingly to restore vnitie and to preserue it Chap. 2. the. 37. Diuision T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. vlt. Eusebius out of Egesippus writeth y e as long as the Apostles lyued y e Church remained a pure virgin for that if there were any that went about to corrupt the holy rule that was preached they Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 32. did it in the darke and as it were digging vnderneath the earth But after the death of the Apostles and that generation was paste whiche God vouchsaued to heare the diuine wisedome with their owne eares then the placing of wicked error began to come into the Church Io. Whitgifte It is euident in diuerse places of the Scripture namely in the first Epistle to the Corruptions in the churche in the Apostles time ▪ Corinthians and the Epistle to the Galath that there were many grosse and greate corruptions openly professed in the Churche by diuerse not onely in maners but also in doctrine euen in the Apostles tyme and Eusebius hymselfe declareth that there Euseb. lib. 2. Cap. 13. Idē Lib. 3. was one Simon mencioned Acts. 8. whom he calleth the author of all heresie Lib. 2. Cap. 13. Likewyse he sheweth Lib. 3. that Ebion Cerinthus and the Nicholaites all horrible heretikes were in the Apostles time Wherefore if this be a good reason then is it not safe for vs to follow no not the Apostles time Chap. 2. the. 38. Diuision T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 1. Element also in a certayne place to confirme that there was corruption of doctrine immediately Li. stromat somvvhat after the be ginning after the Apostles time alleageth the prouerb that there are fewe sonnes like their fathers Io. Whitgifte I can finde no such thing in Clement but the matter is not great whether he saye so or no. The argument is starke noughte for if this followe that we may take no example paterne or testimonie of gouernment out of that time bycause it was corrupte then by the same reason muste we not take examples of any tyme no not out of the Apostles time bicause that was also corrupte as I haue saide Your argumentes be passing strong surely I maruaile with what boldnesse you write them Chap. 2. the. 39. Diuision T. C. Page 74. Sect. 2. And Socrates sayth of the Church of Rome and Alexandria which were the most famous Li. 7. 11. Churches in the Apostles tymes that aboute the yeare 430. the Romane and Alexandrian Byshops (*) Socrates fal fied leauyng the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule or dominion wherevpon we see that it is safe for vs to goe to the Scriptures and to the Apostles tymes for to fetche our gouernment and order and that it is very daungerous to drawe from those ryuers the fountaynes wherof are troubled and corrupted especially when as the wayes whereby they runne are muddier and more fennie than is the head itselfe Io. Whitgifte You falsifie the wordes of Socrates for thus be sayth For euen till that tyme the Nouatians florished maruellously at Rome and had manye Churches and had gathered Socra lib. 7. Cap. 11. muche people But enuie tooke holde of
the vnitie of the Church is conserued not by hauing one Bishop ouer all but by the agreement of the Bishops one with another For so he writeth that the church is knit and coupled togither as it were with the giue of the Bishops consenting one with an other And as for the compounding of controuersies it is manyfest that it was not done by one Byshop in a prouince but those byshops whych were neere the place where the schisme or heresie sprang For speaking of the appeasing of controuersies schismes and shewing how dyuers Bishops Li. 1. epi. 4 were drawen into the heresy of Nouatus he sayth that the vertue and strength of the Christians was not so decayed or anguished but that there was a portion of Priests which did not giue place vnto those rumes and shipwrackes of fayth And in another place he sayth therfore most deare brother the plentyfull body or company Li. 3. epi. 1 of the pr ests are as it were with the g ue of mutuall concorde and bande of vnitie ioyned togither that if any of our company be author of an heresy and goe about to destroy and rent the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and mercyfull shepheards gather togither the sheepe of the Lorde Whereby it is many fest that the appeasing and composing of controuersies and heresies was not then thought to be most fitte to be in one bishops hande but in as many as coulde conuemently assemble togither according to the daunger of the heresie which sprang or depe roote which it had taken or was like to take Io. Whitgifte The Bishops agrée not one whit the worse when they haue a superior by whom they may be called togither and put in minde of their office and duetie Neyther doth Cyprian deny this when he affirmeth the other For thoughe the chiefe cause of vnitie is the consente and agreement of the Bishops one with another yet to haue one that shall haue the chiefe care thereof must néedes be a great helpe thervnto euen as it is in other societies For if the Bishops were deuided among themselues at variance and had no superiour who should compounde the controuersies Our Archbishops doe not take vpon them neyther can they to decide any controuersie Howe farre our Archbishops deale in controuersies in doctrine and religion of their owne authoritie but therein doe they deale eyther according to the lawes of the Churche prouided for that purpose or else expecte a newe Parliament or Synode Neyther doth any Bishop in his Dioces otherwise meddle in suche matters than by the common consent of the Churche is appoynted vnto him and yet it was neuer otherwise taught by any but that a Bishop in hys owne Diocesse or an Archebishop in his Prouince mighte vse persuasions to ende controuersies and execute the lawes prouided for the same other kinde of deciding controuersies by any priuate authoritie I knowe none in this Church of Englande Wherfore al these allegations be but in vayne for surely not in Cyprians time was the determining of suche controuersies committed to the Pastor and Seigniorie of euery Parishe neyther doth Cyprian make mention of any suche matter if he did yet for gouernment the diuersitie of the time and state of the Church is to be considered Tract 2. 3. as I haue before noted Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 77. Sect. 4. And that there was in his time no such authoritie giuen as that any one might remoue the causes or controuersies which rose as now we see there is when the Bishop of the Di es taketh the matters in controuersie which rise in any Church within his Dioces from the minister Elders to whom the decision perteyneth and as when the archebishop taketh it away from the Bishop it may appeare in the same thirde Epistle of the first booke where he sayth after this sort It is ordeyned and it is equall and right that euery mans cause should be there heard where the fault was committed And a little after he sayth It is meete to handle the matter there where they maye haue both accusers and witnesses of the faulte whiche although it be spoken of them whiche fled out of Affrike vnto Rome yet the reason is generall and dothe aswell serue agaynst these ecclesiasticall persons whych wyll take vnto them the deciding of those controuersies that were done a hundred myle of them Io. Whitgifte Cyprian as I sayd speaketh not one worde of your Seigniorie in that place by you alleages he speaketh of the seueral Prouince ▪ 〈◊〉 Dioces of euery bishop would haue euery matter ended in that Prouince 〈◊〉 Diocesse where it is cōmitted therfore he speaketh there of suche as fled out of Affrica into Italie to haue their matters heard so that this place is soluted by your owne selfe It is méete that the matter should be there handled where there may be had bothe accusers witnesses And that was one of the reasons that the Councel of Affrica sed agaynst the Bishop of Rome clayming interest in hearing appeales from thence But there is no Prouince in Englande so large but that both the accusers and witnesses may be brought into any parte of it from any other parte This reason of yours maye serue better agaynst Westminster hall which is but one place to serue the whole Realme for deciding of controuersies and yet I thinke it very necessarie ▪ You may not wrest that to your purpose or proof of Seigniorie or authoritie therof whiche Cyprian speaketh of diuers Prouinces yea diuers Countreys and Nations This is no good reason Cyprian mislyked the translating of causes from Affrica to Rome Ergo there maye be no causes remoued from Northampton to London Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 77. Sect. 5. And whereas M. Doctor in bothe places of Cyprian seemeth to stande much vpon the words one Bishop and priest the reason thereof dothe appeare in another place of Cyprian moste manyfestly L 3. epi. 13 and that it maketh no more to proue that there ought to be one archebishop ouer a whole prouince than to say that there ought to be but one husbande proueth that therefore there should be but one husbande in euery countrey or prouince whiche shoulde see that all the rest of the husbands do their duties to their wiues For this was the case a Nouatian heretike beeing condemned cast out of the Churches of Affrica by the consent of the Bishops not able by embassage sent to them to obteyne to be receyued to their cōmunion fellowship agayne oeth afterwards to Rome and beeing likewise there repelled in time getteth himselfe by certayne which fauoured his heresie to be chosen Bishop there at Rome Cornelius beeing the Bishop or pastor of those which were there godly minded whervpon it commeth that Cyprian vrgeth one Bishop one priest in the church bicause at Rome there was two wherof one was a wolfe
saith on thys sorte So that b M Nowell will wi esse against you First booke against Dor man 25. 〈◊〉 when he speaketh meanyng Cyprian of one Byshop one Iudge in the Churche for the time or of the Byshop which is one and ruleth the Churche absolutely he meaneth euery Byshop in hys owne Diocesse without exception if he speake specially he meaneth the Bishop of the citie or Diocesse whereof he intreateth whether it be the Byshop of Rome Carthage or any other place M. Foxe also expoundeth this of euery Byshop within his owne Churche or Diocesse You Fol. 93. heare the iudgement of these three writers that cannot picke out neyther the name nor the office of an Archbyshop out of Cyprians place and yet I thinke you will not denie but these were learned and godly writers Nowe I haue shewed you three I aske once againe of you one godly and learned writer that expoundeth it as you doe And by this time I suppose all men vnderstande what a smallfriend S. Cyprianis either to the name or office of an Archbyshop Let vs heare whether Hierome make any more for the Archbyshop then did Cyprian Io. Whitgifte M. Iewell Byshop of Sarisburie expounding the place of Cyprian in the fourth article M. Iewell 5. Diuision 228. page of his first booke hath these wordes Vpon occasion hereof he sheweth meaning Cyprian what hurte and confusion of sectes and scismes ensueth in any prouince or diocesse whereas the Byshops authoritie and ecclesiasticall discipline is despised I pray you what call you that Byshop that hath gouernement of a prouince Is he not a Metropolitane or Archbyshop and doth not my L. of Sarisbury as well speake of a prouince as he doth of a diocesse I do not deny but that Cyprians words may be fitly applyed to euery Byshop in his diocesse but is the Archbyshop therefore secluded seing he of whome Cyprian did write was a Metropolitane or Archbyshop That whiche is the office of the Archbyshop in his prouince is also the office of a Byshop in his diocesse and therefore that whiche is spoken of the prouince in respecte of the Archbyshop is also spoken of the Diocesse in respecte of the Byshop And pag. 230. he saith that vniuersa fraternitas is taken for one whole particular Idem brotherhoode within one prouince or diocesse so that your firste witnesse testifieth with me else would he not haue named a prouince M. Nowell fol. 22. 23. 24. doth expounde this place of the authoritie of euery Byshop M. Nowell in his owne Diocesse which is sufficient for me and is as much against you as can be for you would haue no Byshops ouer Diocesses but only pastors in seuerall townes That whiche he speaketh of a Byshop in his Diocesse he also meaneth of an Archbyshop in his Prouince whose both name and office he doth allow as it is manyfest in these wordes of his in his thirde booke against Dorman fol. 320 where he answering Idem this question of Dormans whether he will condemne the whole Church for making of Archbishops saith thus I answere I much commend the Churche for so doing so farre of is it that I will condemne the whole Church therfore But what shal I neede to vse any circumstances seing he doth most euidently apply this place of Cyprian to that purpose which you wil not acknowledge yea euen vnto the office of an Archbyshop in his Prouince for thus he writeth fol. 33. of his firste booke speaking of this epistle of Cyprian to Cornelius and confuting Dormans argument taken out of it for the Popes supremacie whiche is grounded vpon this place Non aliunde haereses obortae sunt c. Concerning the auoyding and quieting of schismes and troubles in the Churche VVe saye that as the seuerall Kings of euery kingdome the seuerall gouernours of euery countree and cittie c. are able to ouersee their seuerall charges and to keepe their people in ciuill order and peace so are the seuerall Byshops of euery Diocesse and the seuerall chiefe Prelates of euery Prouince able to auoide or to appease if they ryse al Schismes and troubles ecclesiasticall as S. Cyprian out of whome this reason is borowed and falsely wrested by them to an other purpose doth most plainely teach saying thus Cum statutum sit omnibus nobis c. What call you chiefe prelates of euery Prouince Be they not Archbyshops Likewise fol. 60. 61. in the same booke speaking of this and such like places he saith And further whatsoeuer M. Dorman eyther out of Deutero ▪ or any other place of Scripture doth vntruely apply to the proofe of the Supremacie of one head to witte the Byshop of Rome the same doth S. Cyprian M. Dormans owne vsuall witnesse euerie where alleage for the proofe of the superiorite of euerie Byshop in his owne Diocesse and for the obedience due vnto him there he doth neuer apply it as doth M. Dorman to the Supremacie of one Byshop ouer all other but rather against such supremacie of one it agreeth very well with the estate of the lewes that as they beyng one nation had one chiefe Prieste so is it good lykewise that euery Christian nation haue their chiefe Priest or Byshop it agreeth not that bycause the Iewes one nation had one highe Prieste to gouerne them in doubtes therefore all nations throughout the worlde shoulde haue one high Priest ouer all other for not onely the vnlikelyhood betwene these two but the impossiblitie of the latter is most euident The words of M. Foxe in that place speaking against the Papisticall interpretation M Foxe Tom. 1. fol. 93. of Cyprians wordes be these when their meaning is otherwyse howe that euery one catholike Church or Diocesse ought to haue one Byshop ouer it whyche also iustifyeth my interpretation For if it be vnderstanded of one Byshop ouer one Diocesse then is it in lyke maner of one Archbyshop ouer one Prouince For the reason is all one and you denie them both alike For you would haue no Bishops but in seueral Parishes Nowe therefore you sée that euen these authors whom you would abuse against me doe make wholy and fully against you and with me For they confesse the two places of Cyprian to be ment of Cornelius and of himselfe who were both Archbyshops and Metropolitanes and had ample iurisdiction especially Cyprian as I haue declared And M. Fexe hymselfe Tom. 1. Fol 21. sayth that the sea of Rome was a Patriarchall Idem sea appoynted by the primitiue Church and the Bishop therof an Archbishop limited within his owne bordering Churches so that the one place beyng ment of Cornelius Archbyshop of Rome the other of Cyprian Archbyshop of Carthage for so they were in déede though they were not in those places so called S. Cyprian may well be sayde in both places to speake of an Archbyshop though he expresse not his name And that which is there spoken of
And Hierome saith that y e cause why among y e Bishops one was chosen to gouerne y e rest was to remedie schismes Do you not perceiue how these two fathers ioyne in one truthe directly affirme y e self same matter It is true y t time corrupteth therfore much more occasion is offered to appoint gouernment according to y e times least the corruptions preuaile get the vpper hand for this cause Hierome saith that vpon these corruptions of time the Church was constreined to appoint this order Chap. 3. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 79. Sect. 3. And here I must put M. Doctor in remēbrance how vnfitly he hath dedicated his booke vnto y e church which hath so patched it peeced it of a number of shreddes of the Doctors y t a sentence of A friuolous di from the matter the scripture either truly or fal ly alleaged is as it were a Phenix in this booke If he would haue had y e church beleue him he oughte to haue setled their iudgement grounded their faith vpon the scriptures which are y e only foūdations whervpon y e church may build Now he doth not only not giue thē ground to stand of but he leadeth them into wayes which they cannot follow nor come after him For except it be those which are learned besides haue the meanes abilitie to haue the bookes which are here cited which are y e least smalest portion of the Church how can they know that these things be true which are alleaged as I haue said if they could know yet haue they nothing to stay themselues vpon quiet their conscience in allowing y e which M. Doctor woulde so faine haue them like of Therfore he might haue much more fitly dedicated his booke vnto y e earned and riche which haue furnyshed lybraries Io. Whitgifte M. Doctor hath brought more scriptures thā you haue answered as in the sequele it wil fal out although as I said before in such matters y e scripture hath not expresly Tract 2. determined any certeintie but hath left them to the Church to be appointed according to the circumstances of time place and person as I haue proued both out of the scriptures learned writers intend to do hereafter more particularly whē I come to entreat of your Seigniorie If al other men should do as you haue done that is borrow the sayings of the Doctors out of other mens collections not read y e authors thē selues a few bokes wil serue with very smal charges they mightbe prouided The patches peeces shreds of Doctors that be in my boke are taken out of the Doctors thēselues they be whole sentences faithfully alledged But the shreds of doctors that your boke is stuffed with you haue borrowed of other you haue falsifyed thē cut them off by the half you haue fathered vpon them that which is not to be founde in them and the words of late writers you haue set downe vnder the name of ancient fathers and the scriptures you haue falsely alleaged and vntruely translated I would not gladly haue burst out into this accusation at this time being from the matter but that you haue vrged me therevnto Chap. 3. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Page 79. Sect. 4. 5. 6. Hierome saith y e at the first a Bishop an elder which you call a priest were all one but afterward through factions schismes it was decreed y t one should rule ouer y e rest Now I say against this order that y e Bishop should beare rule ouer all y e which our sauiour Christ saith vnto y e Phariseis from y e beginning it was not so therfore I require that y e first order may stand which was Contr Prax. that a Bishop elder were all one And if you place so great authoritie against the institution of God in a mortall man heare what Tertullian saith vnto you That is true whatsoeuer is first and that is false whatsoeuer is latter Hierome you confesse y t this was first that y e Bishop was all one with y e elder first also by y e Tertullians meaning falsified word of God thē I conclude y t that is true You both do likewise confesse y t it came after that one bare rule ouer the rest then I conclude y e that is false for all that is false that is latter Furthermore Hierome in the same place of Titus saith after this sort As y e elders know themselues to be subiect by a custome of the Churche vnto him that is set ouer them so the Byshops must knowe that they are greater than the elders rather by custome than by any truth of the instatution of the Lord and so they ought to gouerne the Church in common Io. Whitgifte It followeth after in my answere to the Admonition that there was superioritie among the ministers of the word e ē in the Apostles time which I 〈◊〉 by the riptures other testimonies it is also 〈◊〉 that great factions schi mes did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Church euē in the Apostles time therfore most like these that Icrome sp keth of to haue bin thē determined The which to be true his words ad 〈◊〉 touching y e church of Alexādria doth euidently declare for he saith y t this order was kept 〈◊〉 frō S. Marke But admit these were not true which you wil neuer be able to proue yet your argument is of no force the place of Tertullian is not vnderstanded for Tertullian in that boke after he hath repeated the rule of faith which is to beleeue in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ one God and in his sonne Iesus Ch ist c. he saith that this rule hath come from the beginning of the Gospell euen before all former heretikes muche more before 〈◊〉 that was but yesterdaye as well the posteritie of all heretikes as the verye noueltie of 〈◊〉 which was of late will proue VVhereby iudgement may hereof be indifferently gyuen against all heresies that that is true whatsoeuer is first that count rfeit whatsoeuer is last Wherby it is e ident that Tertullians rule is to be vnderstanded in matters of saluation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to be 〈◊〉 s ode 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gin veland of faith not in matters of ceremonies kinds of gouernment which thing he himselfe in plaine words declareth in his booke de virginibus velandis where in lyke maner after he hath recited this rule of faith he addeth this lawe of aith remaining other things of discipline conuersation admit newnesse of correction the grace of God working and going forward euen to the end So that Tertullian thinketh that matters of ceremonies and discipline may be altered y e rule of faith remaining 〈◊〉 notwithstanding his former rule If you will not haue this to be the meaning of Tertulliā then will I reason thus The reason of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
in Pontus Bithinia Lib. 1. Tom. 2. And what other office then those hath the Archbishop Therfore though the name of Archbishop was not among the Apostles yet was his office function And notwithstanding that part of the office of the Apostles is ceased which consisted in planting founding of Churches throughout y e world yet this part of gouernment direction of Churches remaineth still and is committed to Byshops Therefore saith Ambrose in the. 4. ad Ephe. Apostoli Episcopi sunt Apostles are Byshops Ambro. in 4. Ephe. bicause Bishops do succeede them in preaching the word gouerning y e church Now if I shal also proue by good authoritie that among the Apostles themselues Superioritie among the Apostles and in their tymes there was one chiefe though he were not called Archbishop then I suppose that it will not seeme straunge vnto you that in this state of the Church it should be cōuenient to haue the like in euery Prouince or Diocesse Ierome in his first Ierom. aduers. Ioni lib. 1. booke aduersus Iouinianum sayth thus Yet among the twelue one is chosen that a head being appoynted occasion of schisme might be remoued And least ye should wipe this away with your accustomed deprauing of the Authour I will ioyne vnto him the testimonie of M. Caluine in his Institutions Cap. 8. who writeth thus That the twelue Caluine Apostles had one among them to gouerne the rest it was no marueyle for nature requireth it and the disposition of man will so haue it that in euerie companie although they be all equall in power yet that there be one as gouernour by whome the rest may be directed There is no court without a Consull no Senate without a Pretor no Colledge without a president no societie without a master M. Bucer likewise in his booke De regno Christi hath these wordes Now we see by the perpetuall obseruation of the Churches euen from Bucer the Apostles themselues that it hath pleased the holy Ghost that among the Ministers to whome especially the gouernment of the Church is committed one should haue the chiefe eare both of the Churches and whole ministerie and that he shoulde go before all other in that care and diligence for the which cause the name of a Bishop is peculiarly giuen to such chiefe gouernors of Churches c. Againe vpon the. 4. to the Ephe. he sayth as before is alledged Paule in the Acts called the same men Bishops Ministers whē he called for the Idem Ministers of Ephesus to Miletum yet bicause one among them did rule and had the chief eare of the Church the name of a Bishop did properly belong vnto him Neither was his age alwayes considered so that he were vertuous and learned as we haue an example in Timothie being a yong man Thus then you sée that euen amongst the Apostles themselues and in the Churches in their tymes there were some that had the chiefe authoritie ouer the rest and to this ende especially that schismes and contentions might be compounded and the rest might be directed whiche are the chiefe partes of the Archbishops office and therefore all this that you haue here sayde falleth flat to the ground And yet still I do affirme that if it had not béene so in the Apostles time yet might it haue bene both lawfully and necessarily at other tymes Chap. 3. the. 22. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 1. At Antioch there rose a great daūgerous heresie that had in a maner infected al the Churches which shaked the very foūdation of the saluation of gods childē that was whether faith were sufficient to iustifie without circūcision The matter was disputed of both sides it could not be agreed of What do they now Do they ordein some Archbishop Archprophet Archapostle or any one chief to whō they will referre the coutrouersie or vpon whō they wil depend Nothing lesse And if they would haue had the controuersies ended by one what deuine was there euer or shall there be more fitter for that purpose than S. Paule which was amongst them Why do they send abrode for remedie when they had it at home Why with great charges and long iourneyes which they might haue had without charges or one foote set out of the doore what do they then They sende Paule and Barnabas to Ierusalem as if the lesser townes should send to the Churches of the Uniuersities of London to desire their help in the determining of the controuersie And what is Paule Barnabas ambassage is it to desire the iudgement or mind of some one It must needes be answered with S. Luke that they came to know the resolution of the Church and yet there were the Apostles whereof euerie one was better able both sharpely to see and to iudge incorruptly without affection than any Archbishop that euer was If therefore in so great aboundance and ouerflowing of the giftes of God and in that tyme when as controuersyes might haue beene referred without daunger of error vnto one onely this ministerie of one aboue all was not thought good now when the giftes are lesse and the daunger of error more to make an Archbishop for the deciding of controuersyes and auoyding of schismes is a thing so straunge that I am not able to see the reason of it For to which soeuer of the Apostles the controuersie had bene referred it is certaine that he would haue giuen a true sentence of it Io. Whitgifte It was tolde you before that an Archbishop of himselfe alone doth not take vpon Supr diui 〈◊〉 him to determin matters of doctrine in controuersie But if any such contention arise either he determineth the matter according to the law rule alreadie by the Church established or else with the consent of the Prince doth he set an order in the same by a prouinciall and lawfull Synode in the which he is the chiefe as some one of the Apostles were in such like assemblies according to that which I haue before declared therfore all this speach might well haue bene spared Your argument also is faultie in two respectes first it is Ab authoritate negatiuè or à non facto ad non ius which is good Neque in diuinis neque in humanis neyther in diuine nor in humane matters Secondly you go about to conclude an vniuersall doctrine of one particular and singular example which at no time nor in any matter is tollerable Moreouer it rather iustifyeth my assertion for it euidently proueth that euerie The example of T. C. is rather against him than for him Parish within it selfe hath not absolute authoritie to ende controuersies but that it behoueth them in such weightie matters to resort to the chiefe Church as they now did to Ierusalem This example therefore if you well consider it is directly against you neither doth it in any respect proue that there was then no chiefe gouernour or guide of the
rest to supplie that place and office which now the Archbishop hath Chap. 3. the. 23. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 2. And if any can shew me one man in these tymes of whom we may be assured that he will pronounce The Archbishop hath 〈◊〉 to thanke you for your gentlenesse the truth of euery question which shall arise he shall make me somwhat more fauorable to the Archbishop than presently I am For although there were found one such as could not erre yet I could not consent that the matter shoulde lie only vpon his hande seeing that the Apostles which could not erre in these matters would not take that vpon them seeing that by that meanes the iudgement of the Church should be contemned and further for that the iudgement of one man in a controuersie is not so strong to pull vp errors that are rooted in mens minds as the iudgement and consent of many For that the iudgement of many is very apt either to confirme a truth or to confute falsehoode it is euident that S. Paule doth holde forth as it were a buckler agaynst the frowardnesse of certaine the authoritie of the Church Io. Whitgifte You take great paynes in fighting without an aduersarie and bicause otherwise as it should séeme you lacke matter to lengthen your booke therfore you deuise matter of your owne to striue agaynst For who hath affirmed that which you so earnestly séeke in this place to ouerthrowe It hath bene tolde twise alreadie that neyther of our Archbishops taketh vpon him to compounde controuersies in doctrine by himselfe alone neyther is it their office so to doe The Archbishops authoritie in this The authoritie of Archbishops in our Church Church is to prouide by lawfull and ordinarie meanes that vnitie be obserued in the Church that contentions and schismes be cut off that the religion and orders of the Church by the whole consent of the Church agréed vpon be mainteyned that euery Bishop in his prouince doe his duetie according to the same this is his principall charge as I take it agaynst the which you haue not as yet spoken any thing but deuise with your selfe to improue that which no man affirmeth this is but verie shifting and dallying Chap. 3. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 3. Furthermore if this distinction came vp in the Apostles tyme and by them how commeth it to passe that they neuer mention it nay how commeth it to passe that euen S. Paule in that very Epistle where these voyces are founde I holde of Paule I of Apollo I of Cephas whiche are 1. Cor. 14. sayde to be the cause of the Archbishop ordeyneth a cleane contrarie to this that M. doctor commendeth (a) A place farre se ched to improue the office of the Archbishop For when two or three Prophets haue expounded the scriptures he appoynteth that all the rest that are there should iudge whether they haue done well or no. Io. Whitgifte I contend not that the name of the Archbishop was in the Apostles tyme but you haue not yet proued that the office was not then or that there was then no superioritie among the Cleargie which you notwithstanding denie Your negatiue reason proueth nothing as you haue bene oftentymes tolde The place in the. 1. Cor. 14. is farre fetched it speaketh not of gournment and T. C. faulteth with the Admonition in vnapt allegations of scripture discipline or externall pollicie of the Church but of expounding the Scriptures And what a reason cal you this S. Paule saith 1. Cor. 14. Prophet duo aut tres loquantur caete i dijudicent Let two or three Prophets speake and let the other iudge Ergo he speaketh agaynst an Archbishop Surely if the Authours of the Admonition had not bene detected of their vnskilfull allegations of Scriptures I shoulde haue had as much a doe with you in that poynt for euen of these fewe which you haue vsed there is not almost one rightly and truely applied S. Paule in that place to the Corinthians sheweth that the hearers must iudge of the doctrine of the Prophets whether it be according to the worde of God or no as those did whiche are commended in the. 17. of the Actes but what is this to an Archbishop Chap. 3. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. And howe commeth it to passe that S. Paule being at Rome in prison and looking euery day when he shuld giue vp his last breath cōmended vnto the Church a perfect an absolute ministerie Ephe. 4. Howe oft hath this beene repeated standing of fiue partes wherein he maketh mention not one worde of an Archbishop and sayeth further that that ministerie is able to enterteyne the perfect vnitie and knitting togither of the Church Do not all these things speake or rather crie that there was not so much as a step of an Archbishop in the Apostles times Io. Whitgifte How oft haue you alledged this place to y e same purpose If I should do the like you The place Eph. 4. no per ect pater would bestow one whole side in iesting at it But I answere you as I did before In this place the Apostle as you confesse reciteth offices that be but temporall as Apostle Prophet c. he leaueth out those offices which you say are perpetuall as Deacon and Senior Therefore it is no such perfect patterne as you would haue it And if you say that these offices are conteyned vnder the names of Pastors and Doctors then I say that Bishops and Archbishops be so in like maner If you will haue the Apostle to speake of these ministeries onely which are occupied in the worde and sacraments then I say vnto you that an Archbishop is a name of Iurisdiction and gouernment Archbishop a name of iurisdiction not of a new ministerie committed to a Bishop Pastor or Minister of the worde as necessarie for the good gouernment of the Church but not as any new ministerie as you vntruly both now and also before haue surmised But to let all this passe in those offices whiche S. Paule here reciteth is the office of an Archbishop conteyned though it be not named and namely vnder the Apostles and Pastors as I haue before shewed Chap. 3. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. And if you will say that the Apostles did ordeyne Archbishops as you haue indeed sayd and do now againe when as there is not one worde in the writings of them I pray you tell vs howe we shall hold out of the Church the vnwritten verities of the Papists For my part if it be true that you say I cannot tell what to answere vnto them For our answere is to them the Apostles haue left a perfect rule of ordering the Church written and therefore we reiect their traditions if for no other cause yet bicause they are superfluous and more than need Now this degree of Archbishop being not only
well gouerne a prouince or diocesse and vse the heipe of Archdeacons Chauncellors c. but so cannot the Pope doe whole Christendome what helpe or deputies soeuer he haue If agaynst your will you were constrayned to make such comparisons why do you make Difference betwene the Pope and our Archbishops them when there is no cause why do you forge that which is vntrue why do you ioyne togither offices which in no poynt are like The Pope chalengeth authoritie ouer all Christendome so do not our Archbishops The Pope exalteth himselfe aboue Kings and Princes so do not our Archbishops but with all reuerence acknowledge their subiection to the Prince The Pope sayeth that to be subiect vnto him is of necessitie to saluation so do not our Archbishops The Pope maketh his Decrées equall to the woorde of God our Archbishops thinke nothing lesse of theirs To be short the Pope oppresseth and persecutetth the Gospel they earnestly professe it and haue suffered persecution for it Therefore your comparison is odious your riotous speach more presumptuous than becommeth a man pretending your simplicitie Your good opinion conceyued of them is well vttered in your booke what spirit hath taught you thus to dissemble surely euen the same that hath falsified Scriptures and wryters in your booke that hath vttered so many prowde and contemptuous speaches agaynst your superiours that hath moued you to make contention in the Churche euen spiritus mendax spiritus arrogantiae superbiae a lying spirite the spirite of arrogancie and pryde for such frutes cannot procéede from any other spirite Chap. 3. the. 34. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. 3. 4. But Ierome sayth that this distinction of a Bishop a minister or elder was frō S. Marke his tyme vnto Dionysius time whereby M. Doctor would make vs beleeue that Marke was the author of this distinction but that cannot be gathered by Ieromes wordes For besides that things being ordered then by the suffrages of the ministers and Elders it might as it falleth out oftentimes be done without the approbation of S. Marke the wordes from Marke may be rather taken exclusiuely to shut out S. Marke and the time wherein he liued than inclusiuely to shut him in the tyme wherein this distinction rose Howsoeuer it be it is certayne that S. Marke did not distinguishe and make those things diuers which the holy ghost made all one For then which the Lord forbid he should make the storie of the Gospell which he wrote suspected Io. Whitgifte This is no answere to Ieromes woordes but a dallying with them the place is euident he sayth from the time of Marke the Euangelist whom vndoubtedly he would not haue named vnlesse the same manner had bene in his time But be it that the wordes from Marke be taken exclusiuely which no man of Iudgement will graunt yet doth it argue a great antiquitie of this distinction euen from the moste pure and best time of the Churche It is certayne that these thinges were not otherwise distinguished than the holy Ghost had appoynted and therefore your for then c. is an vngodly collection and vnbeséeming your person in any respect to imagine of the glorious Gospell written by that holy Euangelist Chap. 3. the. 35. Diuision T. C Pag. 2. Sect. 5. Againe it is to be obserued that Ierome sayeth it was so in Alexandria signifying thereby An absurde collection that in other Churches it was not so And indeede it may appeare in diuers places of the auncient fathers that they confounded Priest and Bishop and tooke them for all one as Eusebius out of Ireneus calleth Ani ete Pius Telesphorus Higinus Xystus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lib. 5. 16. De dignitate sacerdotali Elders and presidents Cyprian confoundeth Priest and Bishop in the Epistles before recited so doth Ambrose in the place alledged before by M. Doctor and yet it is one thing with vs to be a priest as M. Doctor speaketh and an other thing to be a Bishop Io. Whitgifte This argument passeth of all that euer I heard Ierome sayth there was a Bishop The passing Logike of T. C. in Alexandria aboue the other ministers from S. Markes time therefore there was no Bishop in any place else God is the God of Abraham Isaac and Iacob Ergo he is no bodies God else he is the God of the Iewes Ergo not of the Gentiles There be Bishops in England Ergo there are none in any other place No marueyle it is though you riot in your Logike when such stuffe is set abroad Like vnto this are the other Eusebius out of Ireneus calleth Anitete Pius Telesphorus c. elders and presidents and Cyprian confoundeth Priest and Bishop and so doth Ambrose Ergo euery Priest is such a Bishop as Ierome here speaketh of These be pretie argumentes Euery Bishop is a Priest but euery Priest hath not the name and title of a Bishop Difference betwixt byshop priest Hieronymus ad Euagrium in that meaning that Ierome in this place taketh the name of a Byshop For his woordes be these Nam Alexandriae à Marco Euangelista vsque ad Heraclam c. At Alexandria from Marke the Euangelist vntill Heracla and Dionysius Bishops the ministers alwayes chose one from among themselues and placing him in a higher degree of dignitie called him a Bishop as if an armie should make a Captayne ▪ c. Neyther shall you finde this woorde Episcopus commonly vsed but for that Priest that is in degrée ouer and aboue the rest notwithstanding Episcopus be oftentimes called Presbyter bycause Presbyter is the more generall name so that M. Doctor sayth truely that it is with vs one thing to be a Byshop an other thing to be a priest bycause euery Bishop is a Priest but euery Priest is not a Bishop I know these names be confounded in the Scriptures but I speake according to the manner and custome of the Church euen since the Apostles time And this is not onely my opinion but other learned men affirme it in lyke manner as M. Bucer in his booke De regno Christi and vpon the. 4. Ephes. Whose woordes I haue before rehersed Thus you sée that M. Doctors distinction is with better authoritie cōfirmed than you haue any to ouerthrow it Chap. 3. the. 36. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. vlt. Ierusalem was a famous Church so was Rome as the Apostle witnesseth so was Antioche Rom. 1. and others where also were great contentions both in doctrine and otherwise and yet for auoyding of contention schisine there there was no (*) An vntruth one that was ruler of the rest Therfore we ought rather to follow these Churches beyng many in keping vs to the institutiō of the Apostles than Alexandria beyng but one Church and departing from that institution if there had bene any one set ouer al the rest in other places it would haue made much for the distinctiō that Icrome had
eos quos baptizauerat c. After that euery one did think those to be his not Chri stes whom he had baptized it was decreed throughout the whole world that one of the ministers being chosen should be set ouer the rest vnto whome the whole care of the churche should aperteyn and the seeds of schismes be taken away Do you thinke y t this is ment of the Pastor of euery towne To what purpose shoulde Ierome saye so For the pastor of euery seueral towne had from the beginning his a thorite ouer his flocke without any such constitution Moreouer there are not in euery seuerall congregatiō many pastors or priestes ouer whom one shold be placed as chief But Ierome speaketh of a Bishop that must gouerne the other Priestes and procure that vnitie bée kept among them and therfore his iurisdiction must of necessitie extend to many parishes bicause it is ouer many pastors He sayth lykewise that the care of the whole was cōmitted vnto him In his epistle ad Euagrium he vttereth his meanyng as plainly For he sayeth That the Priests did choose one among themselues whome they placing Idē ad Eu gr in a higher degree called a Bishop Wherby it apeareth y t he had authoritie ouer many Pastors and therfore ouer many congregations for you will not denie but that euery presbyter that is minister of the worde had his seuerall flocke This he declareth more euidently by the examples there vsed of souldiers choosing their Captain for though the Captain before was a common souldiour yet now being hus preferred he ruleth and gouerneth the reste of the souldiers euen so the Bishop being before a minister equall with other yet being chosen to that degrée he is their guide and gouernoure a gouernour I say of those that did elect him that ist of Priests or ministers therfore of diuers congregations This dothe yet more euidentely appeare in these woordes of the same Epistle That one was afterwardes chosen to rule the reste it was a remedie against schismes least euerie one drawing to himselfe the Churche shoulde breake the same And in his booke Ibidem Idem contr Lucifer contra Luciferianos he sayeth that except the chief authoritie were giuen to one tot essent schismata quot sacerdotes there would be as many schismes as priests By which places it is certain that Ieromes meaning is to haue some one in a prouince or dioces ouer the rest proprely called a Bishop who should haue chief authoritie least euery man in his owne seuerall parish being permitted to do what he list might in the end fyll the Church with schismes vt tot essent schismata quot sacerdotes And surely it is vnpossible to expounde Ierome otherwise But you aske me what this helpeth for the Archbishop c very much For if it be so necessarie to haue one Bishop ouer diuers Priests in euery seuerall dioces for the auoyding of schisme and cōtention it is also necessarie in euery prouince to haue an archbish p for the direction of diuers Bishops the auoyding of schisme amōg them And therfore sayth Ierome again in his epistle ad Rusticū monachū euerie ecclesiasticall Hiero ad Rusticum order is subiect to hir gouernours You aske what could haue ben brought more strong to pull downe the Archbishop out of his throne than that which Ierom sayth there when he affirmeth that the bishop of the obscurest village or hamlet hath as gret authority dignitie as the bishop of Rome I answer that this nothing at alderogateth frō the Archbishop For it is not denied but that euery bishop euery minister are equal quoad ministerium but not quoad ordinem politiam this is that which Ierome saith eiusdem sunt meriti sacerdotij they be of the same merite and priesthod y t is their ministerie office in preaching the word administring y e sacraments is al one And their authoritie also toward such as were vnder their iu isdiction Metropolitanes c. in Ierome his tyme. but he doth nor say y e one Bishop hath not more ample large iurisdictiō thā the other for the contrarie of that is manyfest And in S. Ieroms tyme there wer Metropolitanes Archbishops c. as you may read in the defe se of the Apol. edit 2. pag. 121. These obscure townes doe derogate nothing from the authoritie of a bishop for we see it oftentimes come to passe y t the Bishops seate is but in obscure towns as it is in diuers places of England yet is the bishops iurisdiction in his dioces no whit the lesse If we respect the places Canterburie is far inferior to London And therefore Ieroms meaning is y t the place neither addeth any thing or taketh any thing away from the worthinesse authoritie and office of a Bishop Wheresoeuer a Bishop is in citie or in towne he is of the same authoritie and worthinesse Erasmus in his Scholies vpon that epistle of Hierome hath these words Certè Metropolitanus Erasmus habet aliquid dignitatis c. Surely the Metropolitane hath some dignitie iurisdi tion aboue the other bishops therfore that he here maketh the Bishops of base cities equal with the rest it is to be referred vnto the deacons which in some places were preferred before the ministers whom he doth in a maner make equall with Bishops And in an other place he sayeth that the ministers succede into the place of the Apostles the Byshop into the place of Christ. In this thing therefore are Byshoppes and ministers equall that wheresoeuer they are they are to be preferred before Deacons Here Erasmus speaketh in good earnest howsoeuer he iested before He she weth that these obscure villages or hamlets as you terme them were cities and no doubt as good as eyther Ely or Peterborough but in the respect of Rome contemptible as these be in respect of Lontō And yet the Bishops of euery one of them eiusdem meriti sacer dotij of the same merite priesthood authoritie Erasmus also here telleth in what respect he hath made this cōparison betwixt Bishops and other ministers in the respect of Deacons For both Bishops Priests are to be preferred equally before Deacons bicause of their ministerie office which is aboue the office of a Deacon Nam ex Diacono ordinatur presbyter For a minister or priest is made of a Deacon not ex presbytero diaconus the Deacon of the priest It is most euident neither can it be so vnknown vnto you y e Ierome in al these places meaneth to haue one bishop gouernour of many priests And therefore this interpretation of yours is without all probabilitie or shadow of truth that Hieromes meaning is to haue suche a Bishop in euery towne I trust the reader will note with what vaine reasons you first went about to shake The shift of T. C. in his answer to Hierom. the credit of this wryter Then
foresayde Aërius he proueth his errour aud the errour of those that heare him by this that the Apostle writte to Priests and Deacons and dyd not write to Byshops And to the Bishop he sayth neglect not the gifte that is in thee whiche thou hast receyued by the handes of the Presbyterie And agayne in another place he writeth to Bishops and Deacons wherefore sayth he a Bishop and a Priest is all one and he knoweth not whiche is ignorante of the sequele of the truthe and hathe not read profounde stories that when the preaching was but newely begonne the holy Apostle writte according to the state of things as they were then for where there were Bishops appoynted he writte to Bishops and Deacons for the Apostle coulde not by and by at the first appoynte all things for there was neede of Priests and Deacons bicause by those two ecclesiasticall matters maye be complete And where there was not any founde worthy a Bishopricke there the place remayned without a Bishop but where there was neede and worthy men to be Bishops there were Bishops appoynted And when there was not so many that there coulde be founde amongst them meete to be Priests they were content with one Bishop in an appoynted place but it is vnpossible for a Bishop to be without a Deacon and the holy Apostle had a care that Deacons shoulde be where the Bishop was for the ministerie So dyd the Churche receyue the fulnesse of dispensation suche was then the state and condition of the places For euery thing had not the perfection from the beginning but in processe of time those things whiche were necessarie to perfection were added c. The Apostle teacheth who is a Bishop and who is a Priest when he sayth to Timothie that was a Bishop chide not a Priest but exhorte him as a father what should a Bishop haue to doe not to chide a Priest if he had not authoritie aboue a Priest As he also sayth agayne agaynst a Priest admitte no accusation sodenly without two or three witnesses and he sayde not to any Priest admit no accusation agaynst a Bishop neyther did he write to any Priest that he shoulde not rebuke a Bishop Thus mayest thou sée good Reader that it is not for nought that T. C. so stormes agaynst Epiphanius and so vnreuerently vseth him But I wyll giue him as muche cause to deale in like maner with Augustine who August ad Quod-vult in this matter fully ioyneth with Epiphanius and in that booke of his de haeresibus ad quod-vult-deum quoted by T. C. in his margent attributeth this also as heresie to the sayde Acrius adding that the cause of this and other of his heresies was bicause he himselfe was not made Bishop Chap. 3. the. 59. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 4. That this worde presbyter in this place of the Apostle signifieth a minister of the worde bothe Ambrose Caluine and other learned writers declare T. C. Page 87. Sect. 4. And whereas M. Doctor citeth Ambrose Caluine and other godly wryters to proue that the minister is vnderstanded by the worde Elder or Presbyter he keepeth his olde wonte by bringing stickes into the wood and prouing alwayes that which no man denieth and yet with the minister of the worde he also vnderstandeth the Elder of the Churche whiche ruleth and dothe not labour in the worde But therein is not the matter for I doe graunt that by Presbyter the minister of the word is vnderstanded yet nothing proued of that which M. Doctor would so fayne proue Io. Whitgifte I adde this interpretation that the Reader may vnderstande Timothie to haue authoritie ouer Bishops and Ministers of the worde least you by cauilling shoulde shifte off this place with your signification of Seniors whiche were not ministers of the worde as you say All this whyle haue I looked for the performance of your promise to proue that That Timothie was Bishop Timothie and Titus were no Bishops But bicause I perceyue that you are content to forget it I will héere perfourme mine least I fall into the same faulte with you repeating only that which I haue before added to my answere in the 2. edition least I shoulde put the Reader bothe to coste and paynes in searching for it there First therefore that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus the whole course of the 1 The course of the Epistle two Epistles written vnto him declareth wherein is conteyned the office and duety of a Bishop and diuers precepts peculiarly perteyning to that function as it is manyfest neyther were those Epistles written to Timothie for the instruction of other onely but for the instruction of him selfe also as the whole course of bothe the Epistles doe declare and all learned expositours confesse Secondly the subscription of the seconde Epistle is this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 The subscrip tion The seconde Epistle was written from Rome to Timothie who was ordeyned the first Bishop of the Churche of Ephesus when Paule appeared before the Emperour Nero the seconde time Whiche althoughe it be lefte out in some Gréeke Testamentes yet is it in the moste the best and the auncientest yea almoste in all neyther is this a sufficient answere to saye that the subscription of some one or two Epistles séeme to be vntrue therefore this is vntrue For the subscription as it is no doubt of great antiquitie so is it consonant to al olde auncient authoritie Thirdly the vniuersal consent of histories conclude him to be Bishop at Ephesus 3 Consent of hystories Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 4. saythe that Timothie was the first Bishop of Ephesus Dorotheus who lyued in Dioclesians time wryteth that Paule made him Bishop of Ephesus Nicephorus lib. 2. cap. 34. sayth that Paule made him Bishop of Ephesus before he writ his first Epistle vnto him Hierome in catalog scripto Ecclesi sayth that he was made Bishop of Ephesus by Paule Isidorus de Patribus noui Testamenti sayth also that he was Bishop of Ephesus Antoninus parte 1. titulo 6. cap. 1. affyrmeth the same oute of Polycrates So dothe Supplementum chroni So dothe also Volaterane lib. 20. where he calleth him Praesulem Ephesinum And all the Histories that I haue read whiche make any mention of him Historia Magdel centu 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. in vita Ioan. Euang. hathe these words Constat Paulum Ephesinae ecclesiae Timotheum dedisse pastorem It is certayne that Paule appoynted Timothie Pastor of the Churche of Ephesus Surely it is the generall consente of all hystories that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus Fourthly the fathers affirme the same 4 Content of fathers Dionisius Areopagita so called of some men who liued in the Apostles time wryteth his booke De diuinis nominibus to Timothie Bishop of Ephesus Epiphanius lib. 3. tom 1. affirmeth that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus Ambrose sayth the same in his Preface to the first Epistle written to Timothie Chrysostome in
as I thinke speaketh But nowe to my Lorde of Sarisburie his argument whiche is this that from The Bishops argument the whiche somewhat muste be taken and vnto the whiche somewhat muste be added is no perfect patterne but Apostles Euangelistes Prophets are taken away from the fourth to the Ephesians and Deacons Elders as you your selfe say must be added Ergo it is no perfect patterne neyther do you neyther can you answere this argument But I will come to your accustomed shiftes Chap. 4. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 91. Sect. 2. Afterwarde he sayth that neyther Bishop nor Elder are reckoned in that place The pastor is there reckoned vp and I haue shewed that the pastor and Bishop are all one and are but dyuers names to signifie one thing And as for those Elders whyche doe onely gouerne they are made mention of in other places and therefore the Bishop and Elder are there conteyned whych thing also M. Doctor graunteth Io. Whitgifte If the Bishop be conteyned vnder the Pastor why may not the Archbishop be so likewise but if the Elders which you say do only gouerne be not there conteyned and yet a necessarie function in the Church as you thinke howe can it then be a perfecte platforme or why may not Archbishops Archdeacons be also necessarie thoughe they be not in that place named but you say that those Elders be in other places mentioned That is no answere to this place but a reason rather to proue it no perfect patterne M. Doctor graunteth a Bishop to be conteyned vnder the name of a pastor But he doth not graunt that your Elder is so or euery Presbyter to whome the ministerie of the worde of God and sacraments is committed to be a Pastor Chap. 4. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Page 91. Sect. 3. After that he sayth there is no Catechista if there be a pastor there is one which bothe can and ought to instruct the youth neyther (*) What say you to the Doctor dothe it perteyne to any other in the church and publikely to teache the youth in the rudiments of religion than vnto the pastor howsoeuer in some tymes and places they haue made a seuerall offyce of it Io. Whitgifte If a pastor and a Catechiste maye be in one why may not a Bishop and a gouernour Catechist and pastor distinguished also be one and so your Elders shut out of the doores But you may learne in auncient writers that the office of a Catechiste was necessarie in the Churche and distincte from the Pastor Origene was a Catechist in the Churche of Alexandria as Eusebius in his sixte booke dothe in sundrie places declare and yet he was not then a Pastor Chap. 4. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 1. And where he sayth that there is neyther Deacon nor Reader mentioned for the Deacon I haue answered that S. Paule speaketh there onely of those functions which are occupied both in teaching and gouerning the Churches and therefore there was no place there to speake of a Deacon and as for the Reader it is no suche office in the Churche whiche the minister maye not doe (*) Where haue you scri ture for this geare And if eyther he haue not leasure or hys strength and voyce wyll not serue hym fyrst to reade some long tyme and afterwarde to preache it is an easy matter to appoynt some of the Elders or Deacons or some other graue man in the Church to that purpose as it hath beene practised in the Churches in tymes past is in the Churches reformed in our dayes without making any newe order or offyce of the ministerie Io. Whitgifte This distinction helpeth not héere for if you saye the offices or names of Deacons be lefte out in this place bicause Sainct Paule speaketh not of suche offices as be occupied onely in gouernment first I answere that the same maye be sayde of Archebisho s and Archedeacons who haue those names onely in the respecte of gouernment Secondly I tell you that the office of a Deacon is also to preache as is Tract 14. hereafter proued And last of all that the office of a Deacon especially as you restrayne it is neyther office nor name of gouernment but of simple and absolute ministerie and seruice Your starting holes will not hyde you and this argument of the Bishop will not he answered You haue sayde nothing to proue this place to be a perfecte paterne of all ecclesiasticall functions neyther doe you saye any thing for omitting the names of Bishop Deacon Presbyter c. but we may saye the same for the names of Archebishop Archedeacon c. The Reader hath béene counted a necessarie office in the Churche and is of great antiquitie and I knowe that the Deacon or any other graue person vpon occasion maye be admitted to reade But I pray you where do you finde any such thing in the scripture T. C. taketh greater libertie to himselfe than he will allowe to whole churches especially of those whiche you call Elders which be in no degrée of the ministerie for it is great presumption for you to appoynt any suche office in the Churche not hauing your warrant in Gods worde séeing you finde suche faulte with whole Churches for allowing offices vsed in the best time of the Churche confirmed by the best Councels and approued by all auncient writers bicause their names be not expressed in the scripture and séeing also that you your selfe a little before sayde that onely the pastor ought publikely in the Churche to teache the youth and not a Catechist and I take publyke reading in the Churche to be as solemne a matter as Catechising the youthe But you haue libertie to coyne what order you lyste without eyther Scripture or anye other approued wryter we muste make you another Pythagoras In times past it was a peculiar office and he that had it was called Lector and therefore you can not saye as it hathe beene practised in times past excepte you wyll confesse that name and office of Lector and so also graunte some name and office profitable for the Churche to be omitted in the fourthe Chapter to the Ephesians Chap. 4. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Page 92. Sect. 1. 2. Where he sayth that by this reason we should haue no Churches pulpits scholes nor vniuersities it is first easily answered that S. Paule speaketh not in the. 4. to the Ephesians of all thinges necessarie for the Church but only of all necessarie ecclesiasticall functions which do both teache and gouerne in the Churche and then I haue already shewed that there were both Churches and pulpits As for scholes and Uniuersities it is sufficient (*) I graunt but not out of the. 4. to the Ephe. commaundement of them in that it is commanded that both the Magistrates and pastours should be learned for he that commaundeth that they should be learned commaundeth those things those meanes wherby they
as not to omitte the least would not be so carelesse for this Church vnder the Gospell as to omit the greatest Io. Whitgifte Tract 2. cap. 6 diuis 3. I tolde you before that this which you call the perfection of the Synagogue was rather a burthen than a perfection for God therfore prescribed vnto them a prescript forme of externall things that it mighte be a meanes to kéepe them from further inconuenience but to vs in such things he hath lefte a greater libertie and the perfection of the Church doth not consist in outward appearance but in spirituall giftes and therin hath the Lorde muche more plentifully and gratiou ly shewed his care for the Church vnder the Gospell than he did for it vnder the lawe Touching externall orders both of ceremonies and gouernment he hath lefte the disposition therof to his Church in many things as I haue proued in the beginning of Tract 2. this booke Chap. 4. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Page 92. Sect. 6. And where he saith that there was then which was called high priest and was ouer all the rest he did well knowe that y e cause thereof was (*) This was one cause but not the only cause bicause he was a figure of Christ and did represent vnto the people the chieftie and superioritie of our Sauiour Christ which was to come and that our amour Christ being come there is now no cause why there should be any suche preheminence giuen vnto one and further that it is vnlawfull that there should be any such (a) A Popishe non sequitur vnlesse it be lawfull to haue one head Byshop ouer all the Churche for it is knowne that that priest was the head priest ouer all the whole Church which was during his time vnto our Sauiour Christ. Io. Whitgifte The high priest was a figure of Christ so was Dauid and Salomon but yet was the high priest also appointed to gouerne other for order and pollicie and so was Dauid and Salomon The figure is taken a way and the kinde of Sacrifice but the office of gouerning remaineth still and is to be obserued as the state of the Church requireth Christ being come the office of sacrificing ceaseth but not the office of gouerning for Christ by his comming did not take away gouernment and pollicie no notfrom the 〈◊〉 state This reason of yours that that priest was the head priest ouer all the Church therefore if by A popish reason vsed by the Replyer his example we will haue an Archbyshop he must be such a one as shall gouerne the whole church is in déede a plaine confirmation of the Papistes reason for y e supremacie who thinke that they may reason in lik maner But I answere you as M. Caluine answereth thē Lib. inst cap. 8. Sect. 87. There is no reason that compelleth to extende that vnto the whole Caluine worlde which was profitable in one nation nay rather there is a great diuersitie betwixt one nation and the whole world Bicause the Iewes were compassed in on euerie side with Idolaters least they should be withdrawen through the varietie of Religion God did place the seat of his worship in the middest of the earth there he appoynted ouer them one prelate whom all should looke vpon that they might the better be conteined in vnitie Now when as true Religion is dispersed through out the whole worlde who dothe not see it to be absurde that the gouernment of both the East VVest should be giuen to one it is like as if one would say bycause one precincte of grounde hath not many gouernours therefore the whole world ought to be ruled of one president or gouernour I knowe that he maketh another answere likewise euen the same that you haue borrowed of him touching the figure but his first answere is more direct in my opinion And M. Nowell against Dorman reasoning as you do giueth him this answere Nowell It agreeth very wel with the estate of the Iewes that as they beyng one natiō had one chiefe Lib. 1. 63. Priest so is it good likewise that euery Christian nation haue their chiefe Priest or Byshop It agreeth not that bicause the Iewes one nation had one high Priest to gouerne them in doubtes therfore all nations through the world should haue one high priest ouer al other for not only the vnlikelyhood betwene these two but the impossibili ie of the latter is most euident Other learned men also ther be as Hyp rius Lib. 3 Method Theolog d uers others who answering this same argument of the Papists say that by it we may well proue that one Archbishop or Metropolitane maye gouerne one Prouince or one kyngdome but that it is to weake to proue that one Pope may gouerne all t e world Now be it you had rather giue strength to the aduersarie than lacke argumentes to the defense of your cause Chap. 4. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Line 1. And as for those titles chiefe of the Synagogue chiefe of the s nctuarie chiefe of the house of God I say that that maketh much against Archbishops Archbeacons for when as in steade of the Synagogue of the sanc uarie and of the house of God or tempee are come part cular churches and congregations by this reason it foloweth that there should be some ch f not in euery prouince or dioesse but in euery congreg tion in deed so ought there to be cer ain chief in euer congregation which should gouerne and rule the rest And as for the chief of the families of the Leuites chiefe of the families of the priests the same was obserued in all other tribes of Israell and by all these Princes ouer euery tribe nd fam le as by the Prince of the whole l nde God did as it were by diuers liuely pictures imprint in their vnderstanding the chiet ie and domination of our Sauiour Christe Besides this the order which was appointed in this poynt was obserued in all the tribes Io. Whitgifte These titles be as glorious as any that are now remaining in our church And my The Replye slippeth by the matter L. of Sarum speaketh o names to the which you do not answere one word but s k out other matter to blind the Reader with ▪ least he should beholde your follie But I will follow you You s y that in steade of the Syn gogues c. are come particular Churches and congregations c. and I say vnto you that they had thē particular Synagogues as well as we haue now particular Ch rches the whiche you your sel e in ffect haue confessed before And yo must vnderstand that one Christian common weale is but Pag. 22. line 1. one Church as it was among the I wes th rfore such offices of gouernment may be such in the Church as was 〈◊〉 the Iewes and such superioritie among ministers as was then amongst
of one man ouer sundry Churches yea ouer many shyres Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 116. Sect. 1. 2. I haue proued before in my answere to your 13. 14. reason that this lordship of one man as you terme it but in deede lawfull iurisdiction ouer sundry churches was not the inuentiō of any Pope but of great antiquitie in the church of Christ allowed by that famous Councell of Nice practised since of most godly and learned fathers In the. 9. Canon Concil Antioch it is thus written Per singulas regiones Episcopos conuenit nosse Metropolitanum Episcopum solicitudinem totius prouinciae gerere propter quod ad Metropolim omnes vndique qui negotia videntur habere concurrant vndè placuit um bonore praecellere nibil amplius praeter eum caeteros Episcopos agere secundùm antiquam à patribus nostris regulam constitutam nisi ea tantùm quae ad suam Dioecesim pertinent c. It behoueth the Bishops in euery countrie to knovve their Metropolitane Bishop to haue care ouer the vvhole prouince and therfore all such as haue any businesse muste come to theyr Metropolitane Citie vvherefore it pleaseth this Councell that he also excell in honour and that the other Bishops do nothing vvithout him according to the auncient rule prescribed by our forefathers but those things onely vvhich perteyne to his ovvne diocesse c. This Councell was about the yeare of our Lord. 345. T. C. Pag. 99. Sect. 4. 5. In the. 116. page for the authoritie of the Archbishop is alleaged the. 9. Canon of the councell of Antioche which I haue before alleaged to proue how farre different the authoritie of the Metropolitane in those tymes was from that which is now For there the Coūcel sheweth that euery Bishop in his diocesse hath the ordering of all the matters within the circuite thereof therefore the meaning of the Councell to be that if there be any affayres that touch the whole Church in any lande that the Bishops should do nothing without making the Metropolitane priuie as also the Metropolitane might do nothing without making the other Bishops a Counsell of that which he attempted which M. Doctor doth cleane leaue out And if this authoritie which the Councell giueth to the Metropolitane being nothing so excessiue as the authoritie of our Metropolitanes now had not bene ouer much or had bene iustifiable what needed men father this Canon which was ordeyned in this Councell of the Apostles for the seeking falsely of the name of the Apostles to giue credite vnto this Canon doth carie with it a note of euill and of shame which they would haue couered as it were with the garment of the Apostles authoritie Io. Whitgifte There is no Canon that maketh more directly against you than this doth all the shifts that you haue to auoyde it I haue answered before There is as great authoritie giuen to the Metropolitane in that Canon as now he eyther vseth or requireth For euery Bishop obseruing the lawes of the realme and of the Church hath the ordering of al matters within his diocesse and the Metropolitane in this Church may attempt no newe thing or any matter of great importance not already by lawe established though he haue the consent of all the Bishops so farre is he from hauing authoritie to do any such thing without theyr consent That Canon of the Apostles is repeated confirmed in this Councell as diuerse Canons of the Councell of Nice are in like maner repeated and confirmed by diuerse Councels following This is so farre from discrediting that Canon with wise men that it rather addeth great authoritie vnto it but you kéepe your olde wonte in discrediting the authoritie which you cannot answere Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision Admonition Now then if you will restore the Church to his auncient officers this you must do In stead of an Archbishop or Lorde byshop you must make (x) 2. Cor. 1 7. Colos. 1. 1. equalitie of ministers Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 123. I haue proued before that aswell the name as office of an Archbishop is both most auncient and also most necessarie in the Church of Christ that this equalitie of ministers which you require is both flatly against the scriptures al auncient authoritie of councels and learned men the example of all Churches euen frō Christes time as more plainly appeareth by these wordes of M. Bucer in his booke De egno Christi Iam ex perpetua Ecclesiarum obseruatione ab ipsis iam Apostolis videmus visum ucer hoc esse spiritui sancto vt inter Presbyteros quibus Ecclesiarum procuratio potissimùm est commissa vnus Ecclesiarum totius sacri ministerij curam gerat singularem eaque cura solicitudine cunctis praeeat alijs Qua de causa Episcopi nomen huiusmodi summis Ecclesiarum curatoribus est peculiariter attributum c. Novve vve see by the perpetuall obseruation of the Churches euen from the Apostles themselues that it hath pleased the holy ghost that amongst the ministers to vvhom the gouernment of the Church especially is cōmitted one should haue the chiefe care both of the Churches and of the vvhole ministerie and that he should go before all other in that care and diligence for the vvhich cause the name of a Bishop is peculiarly giuen to such chiefe gouernours of Churches c. Furthermore I haue declared that it engendreth schismes factions contentions in the Churche and bringeth in a meere confusion and is a branche of Anabaptisme T. C. Pag. 99. Sect. 6. 7. nd in the 〈◊〉 twētie three page to that which M. Bucer sayth y t in the Churches there hath bene one which hath bene 〈◊〉 ouer the rest of the Ministers if he meane one chiefe in euery particular Church 〈◊〉 one chiefe ouer the Ministers of diuerse Churches meeting at one Synode and 〈◊〉 for the 〈◊〉 and for suche respectes as I haue before shewed then I am of that mynde which he is and if he meane any other chiefe or after any other sorte I denie that any such chiefe was from the Apostles times or that any such 〈◊〉 pleaseth the holy Ghost wherof I haue before shewed the 〈◊〉 And whereas M. Bucer seenieth to allowe that the name of a Bishop whiche the holy Ghost expressely gyueth to all the Ministers of the worde indifferently was appropriated to certayne chiefe gouernors of the Church I haue before shewed by diuerse reasons howe that was not done without great presumption and manifest daunger and in the ende great hurt to the Church Io. Whitgifte M. Bucers wordes are plaine there is no cause why you shoulde make such I s but onely that you may be thought able to say some thing howe contrary to truth and reason soeuer it be Your owne bare deniall of M. Bucers iudgement will weigh little with any wyse or learned man considering what difference there is betwixte your knowledge and his the triall
confesse to haue bene in these offices which notwithstanding you speake of your owne head without any warrant of Gods worde argueth that there maye be superioritie among the ministers of the Churche And the degrées of honour that you acknowledge to haue bene among the Apostles quite cast th downe your confused qualitie As for your saluing the matter in saying that this chiefetie among the Apostles consisted not in hauing anye superioritie aboue the reste but in laboring c. it may please vnskilfull persons but it will not satisfie men of discr tion and wisdome For it is to be thought that euery one of y e Apostles laboured in their calling to the vttermost of their powers that they suffered whatsoeuer God laide vpon them that they had all giftes most aboundantly necessarie for their functions Wherfore in all these things there was summa aequalitas and no m n sought such preheminence or receyued it being offered vnto him but according to their owne doctrine euery one thought of another better than of 〈◊〉 Wherfore it could not be for this respect but it was for order pollici to a oyde confusion I haue tolde you before why you labour so muche to haue honour and dignitie distributed according to the excellencie of gifts for then you perswade your selfe that the chiefetie would light on your owne necke but you may peraduenture be deceiued Chap. 6. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 123. tovvards the ende And nowe I adde that you desire this equalitie not bycause you Why y e Admonitors desire equalitie would not rule for it is manifest that you seke it most ambitiously in your maner but bycause you contemne and disdaine to be ruled and to be in subiectiō In deede your meaning is as I said before to rule and not to be ruled to do what you list in your seueral cures without controlement of Prince Bishop or any other And therefore pretending equalitie most disorderly you seeke dominion I speake that I know by experience in some of you T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 2. 3. Now whereas he saith that we desire to pull the rule from others that the rule might be in our handes and we might doe what we list and that we seeke to withdrawe our selues from controlement of Prince and Byshop and all first he maye learne if he will that we desire no o r authoritie than that which is to the edifying of the Churche and whiche is grounded of the wo e of God which if any Minister shall abuse to his 〈◊〉 or ambition then he ought to abyde not ely the controlment of y e other Ministers yea of the brethren but also further the punishment of the Magistrates according to the quantitie of the fault And seyng you charge the brethren so sore you must be put in remembrance that thys vnreasonable authoritie ouer the rest of the ministers and cleargie (*) An vntruth ▪ for the lawfull authoritie o Bishops and Archbyshops was long be ore came to the Bishops and Archbyshops when as the Pope did exempte his hauelings from the obedience subiec on and iurisdiction of Princes Nowe therefore that we be readie to giue that subiection vnto the prince and offer our selues to the princes correction in things wherein we shall doe amisse doe you thinke it an vnreasonable thing that we desire to be disburdened of the Bishops and Archbishops yoke which the Pope hath layde vpon our neckes Io. Whitgifte Your answere maketh the matter more suspicious for this authoritie you speake of Excessiue authoritie is sought vnder pretence of equalitie which you say ▪ is to the edifying of the Church and grounded of the word of God is as it pleaseth you to interprete it For what so euer you phansie and whatsoeuer authoritie you vsurpe shall haue the same pretence and if the Prince seeke to restraine you or to breake your will you and your Seniors will excommunicate hir if she be of your parishe Fu thermore the greatest preeminence she can haue is to be one of your seigniorie and then must M. Pastor be the chiefe and so in authoritie aboue y e Prince and consequently a Pope but of this more in due place shal be spoken This authoritie which the Bishops and Archbishops now exercise came first from 〈◊〉 authoritie of Byshops Archbishops came not from the 〈◊〉 the Apostolicall Church then from the example of the primitiue Churche for y e space of fiue hundred yeares after the Apostles time Thirdly from the Councels of Nyce Antioche Constantinople and all the beste and purest Councels that euer were And last of all from the authoritie of the Prince and by the consent of this whole Churche and Realme of England therefore not from the Pope who hath rather diminished it by taking all to himselfe than in any respect encreased it Wherfore you also in exempting your self from the authoritie and iurisdiction of the Archbishop and Bishop resist God in his Ministers the Prince in hir officers and the lawes of the Church Realme in their executors And as for your protested obedience it is so enwrapped with conditions and prouisoes as in other places of your booke more plainely appeareth that when it should come to the triall if your platforme were builded it woulde proue as little as uer the Popishe Byshops was in their greatest pride Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 124. Sect. 2. The place in the first to the Coloss. vers 1. is this Paul an Apostle of Iesus Christ by the vvill of God Timotheus our brother Surely your minde was not of equalitie I thinke when you quoted these places to proue it But it is your vsuall maner without al discretiō iudgement to dally play with the scriptures For what sequele is there in this reason Paule calleth Timothie brother Ergo in all respectes there must be equalitie As though there were not distinction of degrees euen among brethren Io. Whitgifte Magis mutus 〈◊〉 piscis and by his silence the ouersight confessed Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision Admonition And (g) Lu. 22. 25. 26. 1. P t. 5. 3. 4. 5. Math. 20. 25. 26. Math. 23. 8 11. 12. Gala. 2. 6. Hebr. 5. 4. Lu. 16. 25. Eze. 34. 4. 2. Cor. 1. 24. as the names of Archbishops Archdeacons Lord bishops Chancelours c. are drawen out of the Popes shop togither with their offices So the gouernment which they vse by the life of the Pope which is the Canon law is Antichristian and diuelishe and contrarie to the scriptures Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 208. Sect. 1. Both of the names and also of the offices of Archbyshops Archdeacons Scriptures wreasted Lorde Byshops c. I haue spoken before sufficiently and fully answered those places quoted in this margent sauyng the. 2. to the Galat. the. 5. to the Hebrues Ezech. 34. 2. Cor. 1. for these places haue bene founde out since and thoughte meete
places of Cyprian before mentioned and now these that follow to the strongest arguments of the Papists Wherfore I confesse that I vse some of the same arguments but not to the same ende nor in like maner For they vse them vntruely agaynst reason the true meaning of the Author I vse them truely according to reason and their proper sense And my vsing of them to the purpose that I doe is the direct answere playne ouerthrow of all the arguments of the Papists It is not therfore good dealing to make the simple beléeue that the same arguments confirme the Pope that confirme the Archbishop when as the application of them to the one is the quite ouerthrowe of the other M. Doctor neuer wēt about to proue that bicause there is one king ouer a realine therfore there may be one Bishop ouer aprouince and in vttering these and suche like vntruthes willingly wittingly as you do you declare of what spirite you are But M. Doctor hath reasoned cleane c ntrarie that it is no good argument to saye that bicause one king may well rule one kingdome therefore he may also well rule the whole world or bicause one Bishop may be ouer one prouince therfore one Pope may be ouer all Christendome These be papisticall reasons these M. Doctor dissolueth con uteth neythrr can you be ignorant of it but malice is blinde God forgiue you for your whole drift is to bring M. Doctor into hatred contempt by such lying meanes but God that séeth the hearts of al will one day detect your déepe dissembled hypocrisie reueale that lūpe of arrogancie ambition which is nowe cloaked with a counterfeit desire of reformation I haue tolde you for what purpose I haue vsed these solutions of M. Caluines whose opinion also I haue shewed before concerning those names and offices Caluine alloweth one to rule ouer the test of ministers In the place to the Philippians now agayne repeated and yet this Replier can abide no repetitions in others though he vse almost nothing else him selfe M. Caluine ouerthroweth your equalitie for thus he sayth Truely I graunt that as the manners and conditiōs of men are there can no order remaine amōg the ministers of the word xcept one do rule ouer the rest And he addeth that he speaketh de singulis corporibus non de totis prouincijs multò autem minùs de orbe vniuerso of seueral bodies not of whole prouinces much lesse of the whole worlde meaning as I suppose suche prouinces as be vnder What is mēte by a body in Caluine diuers gouernours for one prouince in one particular Church in one kingdome vnder one Prince is but one body and therfore M. Caluin sayth nothing to the cōtrary but that one may praeesse reliquis ministris rule ouer the rest of the ministers in such a prouince Undoubtedly he can not meane that in euery seuerall parishe or towne there should be one qui praesit reliquis bicause the most parishes townes haue but one minister and he that ruleth must haue some to rule ouer If you will say that M. Caluin meaneth of suche ministers as be in cities where there be many and not of the Countrey where there is in euery seuerall towne but one then I answere that it were agaynst reason to bring the ministers of the citie vnder the gouernment of one and to suffer the ministers of the countrey to liue as they list The same causes that require a ruler or gouernour for the one requireth the same also for y e other except you would haue vniformitie in the citie and confusion in the countrey Wherfore M. Caluines meaning is as I haue sayde But you haue subtilly kept in his wordes bothe héere and before bicause you know that they made much more against your equalitie than they doe agaynst the Archbishop It had béene vprighter dealing to haue set downe his words but you wil neyther vse that playnnesse your self nor allow of it in other men M. Caluine vseth two answeres to that obiection of the Papists the first whereof is this that I haue reported in my Answere And surely he would neuer haue vsed y ◠solution caused it to be printed if he had not allowed it thought well of it And not he alone but other of singular religiō zeale haue vsed the same as Hyperius in the place before by me alleaged so doth M. Nowell agaynst Dorman in his first booke Fol. 50. whose words bicause they be wholy to my purpose an euident declaration that such testimonies may lawfully be vsed for the authoritie of the Bishops that are Supra cap. 3. the. 15. diuis vnlawfully abused for the authoritie of the Pope I haue set downe before Wherby also the Reader may vnderstand how we agrée both amōg onr selues to our selues which are desirous to kéepe the peace of the Churche and that these places now vsed in the defense of the Archbishops and Bishops authoritie are no otherwyse applied by vs than they were before any suche controuersie beganne M. Caluine maketh no doubt of the matter but setteth it downe as an apt answer and by him allowed And therfore your obiection of Iacobs two wiues maye serue for a iest but little to the purpose It followeth not that if a man make two answers to one argument he disaloweth the one for they may both be true Touching M. Caluines second answere I haue spoken before and declared wherin that high Priest was a figure of Christ. M. Caluine in that place hath not these words that his iudgement is that as there should be no one ouer all Churches so should there be no one ouer any nation And therefore you kéepe your accustomed maner of falsifying Chap. 6. the. 17. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 211. Sect. 3. Another of their reasons is this Peter was the chiefe among the Caluin Inst. cap. 8. Apostles therfore there ought to be one chiefe ouer the whole Churche The same M. Caluine in the booke and chapter before rehearsed maketh his owne answere to that argument Vnus inter Apostolos summus fuit nempè quia pauci erant numero Si vnus duodecim hominibus praefuit an proptere sequetur vnum debere centum millibus hominum praefici There vvas one chiefe among the Apostles bicause they vvere but fevve in number but if one man rule ouer tvvelue shall it therefore follovve that one man maye rule ouer an hundreth thousande And a little after Quod inter paucos valet non protenu tr bendum est ad vniuersum terrarū orb m ad quem regendum nemo vnus sufficit That which is offorce among fewe may not by and by be drawne to the whole world the which no one man can gouern Euery hiue of Bees hath one chief maister Bee euery companie of Cranes hath one principall guide muste ther be therfore but one Bee one Crane to direct all the
and naught so do you as naughtily 〈◊〉 it Is there no way for the prodigall man to come to liberalitie but by 〈◊〉 no way for the glutton to come to temperance but by pyning himselfe no way for t e 〈◊〉 person to come to the true feare and loue of God but by des eration 〈◊〉 way to come rom poperie to the Gospell but by confusion and 〈◊〉 of all good ord r and gouernment Is this diuinitie In déede uch 〈◊〉 it is that Aristotle a prophane Philosopher doth teach in his Ethikes but not that Chris and his 〈◊〉 do teach in the Gospell The ordinarie meanes whereby a Christian man must come from vice to vert e The ordinarie meanes to draw men from 〈◊〉 from an e treme to a meane is the diligent reading and hearing o the word of God ioyned with earnest and heartie prayers The best way therefore to bring a dronken man to sobrietie is not to perswade him to a superstitious kind of abstinence or fasting but to lay before him out of the word of God the horriblenes of that sinne and the punishment due vnto the same The similitude of a croked sticke is a t to set foorth so croked a precept but not so apt to make manifest the way vnto vertue But I may not blame you for vsing and allowing those prophane rules whiche you so aptly follow and so commonly practise in all your doings Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 1. 2. This wisedome of not conforming it selfe vnto the ceremonies of the Idolaters in things indifferent hath the Church followed in times passed Tertullian sayth O sayth he better is the religion of the heathen for they vse no solemnitie of the Christians ▪ neyther the Lords day neyther the Pentecost and if they knew them they woulde Lib. de Ido latria haue nothing to do with them for they would be afrayd least they shoulde seeme Christians but we are not afraid to be called heathen Io. Whitgifte Tertullian in that place speaketh against such Christians as celebrated the feasts of the Gentiles togither with them remayning in their wicked abuse as it appeareth in the words that go before which are as followeth Nobis quibus sabbata extranea Lib. de Idolatria sunt neomenia feriae aliquādo a Deo dilectae Saturnalia lanuariae Brumae Matro ales frequentantur munera commeant strenae consonant lusus conuiuia constrepunt O melior fides nationum in suam sectam c. The feasts of Saturne of Ianus of Bacchus and of Iuno are frequented of vs vnto whome the sabbats new mones and holydays sometimes beloued of God are straunge gifts and presents are very ri e sportes and banquets keepe a sturre O better is the faith of the Gentiles in their sect c. Wherefore this saying of Tertullian may aptly be alledged against those that frequent the popish solemnities togither with them come to their Churches communicate with them in worshipping their idols and yet professe the knowledge of the Gospell but it can by no meanes be drawen vnto such as withdrawing themselues from suche kind of communicating with them do in their seuerall Churches vse those good things well which the Papists haue abused as the scripture the sacraments prayers and suche like Wherefore you do not well to alledge Tertullians words omitting the circumstances which declare his meaning A man being pr sent at Idolatrous seruice must néedes giue great suspition that he is an Idolater and therfore no man ought to be present at it which in heart condemneth it But as there is no honest and godly man which can call our seruice Idolatrous or Papisticall so is ther none that can suspect vs to be Idolaters or Papists The whole world knowing that both our practise and profession is to the contrary Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 3. Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 17. Constantine the Emperoure speaking of the keeping of the feast of Easter saythe that it is an vnworthy thing to haue any thing common with that most spitefull companie of the Iewes And a little a ter he saith that it is most absurd and against reason that the Iewes shou de vaunt and glory that the Christians could not keepe those things without their doc rine And in another Socrat. li. cap. 9. place it is sayd after this sort It is conuement so to order the matter that we haue nothing common with that nation Io. Whitgifte Constantine speaketh of the feast of Easter which he would not haue obserued according to the manner of the Iewes and yet you know that the Churches in Asia following the examples of Philip and Iohn the Apostles and of Polycarpus and many other godly men did celebrate that feast togyther with the Iewes as it is to be seene in the fifth booke o Eusebius eccle history Wherfore the matter was not of so great Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 23. 24. 25. 26. importance before it was for quietnesse sake determined by the Churche neyther doth Constantine in eyther of the places meane that we should haue nothing common with the Iewes but only that we should haue no suche thinges common with them as are repugnant to Christian libertie or to the truth of the Gospell or such as may cō rme them in their obstinacie and error For if his meaning had bin generally and simply then mighte he haue vtterly abrogated the feast of Easter being no commaundement sor it in the new testament As therefore Cōstantine thought that the Churche had not the feast of Easter common with the Iewes not bycause the thing it selfe was abrogated but the ay altered Euen so the Churche of Englande cannot be said to haue any thing common with the P pisticall Church though it reteine something vsed in the same bycause the manner is changed and certayne circumstances altered or whereas before it was in a straunge tongue nowe it is in a tongue knowne and whereas it was before abused and mixt with superstition now it is rightly vsed and purged from all corruption And therefore although the thing remaine yet bycause the circumstances be altered it is not the same no more than our Sabbat is the Iewes Sabbat and our Easter the Iewes Easter Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 4. 5. 6. The Councels although they did not obserue themselues always in making of decrees thys rule yet haue kept this consideration continually in making their lawes that they woulde haue the Christians differ from others in their ceremonies The Co ncell of Laodicea which was afterward confirmed by the sixt generall Councell decreed Tom. 1. con Lao. can 38 that the Christians should not take vnleauened bread of the Iewes or communicate with their 〈◊〉 Also it was decreed in another Councell that they shoulde not decke their houses with bay 2. To. Braccar can 7 leaues and greene boughes because the Paganes did vse so
learnedly and truly written agaynst the common aduersaries of this Booke among whome there is one that wrote a Booke Entituled A sparing restraynt of many lauishe vntruthes which M. Doctor Harding doth chalenge in the first Article of my Lorde of Sarisburies Replye The A sparing re trayne Author of that booke writeth thus O M. Harding turne agayne your writinges examino your authorities consider your Councels applie your examples looke if any line be blameable in our seruice and take holde of your aduantage I thinke M. Iewell will accept it for an Article And a little after Our seruice is good and godly euery title grounded on holy Scriptures and with what face do you call it darkenesse This was his opinion then of our seruice And it both was then and is now my full perswasion and I will God willing performe that against you which he offred in M. Jewell his name agaynst Harding Your othnesse to enter into this fielde is but dissembled your continuall barking The Repliet his wordes contrary to his deedes agaynst the state and forme of this Church of England doth conuince you of the contrarie Neyther haue you any respect or regarde for giuing occasion o euill speach to the Papistes much lesse of prouoking your adherentes to vnduetifull speaches as you pretend your booke tending wholly to the contrary Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 3. Notwithstanding my dutie of defending the truth loue which I haue first towardes God and then towards my countrie constrayneth me being thus prouoked to speake a few wordes more particularly of the forme of prayer that when the blemishes thereof do appeare it may please the Queenes inaiestie hir honorable councell with those of the Parliament whom the Lorde hath vs o as singular instrumentes to d liuer this realme from the hote fornace and yron yoke of the popish Egipte to procure also that the corruptions which we haue brought from them as those with which we being so deepely died and stayned haue not so easily shaken of may be remoued from amongst vs to the ende that we beyng necrclicr both ioyned vnto the sinceritie of the gospell and the ollicie of other reformed Churches may thereby be ioyned nearer with the Lord and may be se te so farre from Rome that both we may comfort our selues in the hope that we shall neuer returne thither againe and our aduersaries which desire it and by this to much agreement with them and to little with the reformed Churches hope for it may not onely be deceyued of their expectation but also being out of all hope of that which they desire may the soner yeelde themselues vnto the truth wherevnto they are now disobedient Io. Whitgifte What dutie can there be in defacing a knowne and receaued truth what loue in flaundering your countrie vniustly and renting it in pieces with sectes and Schismes and prouoking the subiectes to haue mislikyng of their Magistrates and such as be placed in authoritie ouer them these be but clokes to couer an euill and vngodly purpose If you shall be able to shewe any suche blemishes in the booke of Common prayers they shall not be couered for me but if not than are you not a man to be credited I haue tolde you M. Caluines and M. Gualters opinion touching the ambitious Sup̄ra Cap. t e 13. Diuisi morositie of such as would haue all Churches framed after the example of some one and nowe I tell you agayne that there is no cause why this Churche of Englande eyther for truth of doctrine sinceritie of publike diuine seruice and other pollicie should giue place to any church in Christendome and sure I am that we are as 〈◊〉 ioyned with the Lorde our God as the members are to the bodie and the bodie to the head Our aduersaries haue o such hope vpon any suche occasion as you pretende if The aduersaries hope is in contention their hope be any it is especially in your contentions Wherein do we agrée with the Papistes or wherein do we dissent from the reformed Churches with these we haue all poynts of doctrine and substance common from the other we dissent in the most parte both of doctrine and ceremonies From what spirite come these bolde and vntrue speaches Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 4. And as for the Papistes triumphe in this case I shall not greatly neede to feare it ▪ ring that their discordes and contentions are greater a d that our stryfe is 〈◊〉 we 〈◊〉 b arther from them For the other that professe the Gospell I will desire in the name of God that they abuse not my labour to other ende than I bestowe it and that they eepe hemselues in theyr callinges committe the matter by prayer vnto the Lorde leauing to the ministers of the worde of God and to the magistrates that which apperteyneth vnto them Io. Whitgifte It is true of the Papistes but they deale in their controuersies more circumspectly and warely though they dissent in matters of farre greater importaunce and in the chiefe poyntes of their owne Religion To the professours of the Gospell you giue better Councell than you haue taken your selfe and you shewe an example contrary to your wordes and therefore how shall they beléeue you But now to the matter for hitherto you haue vttered nothing but woordes Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C Pag. 106. Sect. vlt. To come therfore to touche this matter I answere that there is fault in the matter and fault in the forme In the matter for that there are things there that ought not to be and things there are wanting in the order that should be Of the firste sorte is that we may euermore be defended The collect of Trinitie Sunday from all aduersitie Io. Whitgifte The first fault that you finde in the matter of prayer is a portion of the Collect of Trinitie Sunday wherein we pray That we may euermore be defended from al aduersitie And is this the matter you mislike let vs then consider your reason Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 1. Nowe for as much as there is no promise in the scripture that we should be free from all ad ersitie and that euermore it scemeth that this prayer might haue bene better conceyued being no prayer of faith or of the which we cā assure our selues that we shal obteyne it For if it be sayd that y the worde aduersitie is meante all euill we knowe that it hath no such signification neyther in this tongue of oures neyther in other tongues which vse the same worde in common with vs but that it signifieth trouble vexation and cala tie from all the which we may not desire alwayes to be deliuared And whatsoeuer can be alleaged for the defense of it yet euery one that is not contentio s may see that it needeth some caution or exception Io. Whitgifte I thinke no man will
not somtime pray and sometimes reade the scriptures what do we else in the whole order of our seruice will you still more and more vtter your contempt agaynst God against his Church against a most pure and godly kynde of publike prayer and seruice and that with such vnreuerend speaches But I omit thē it is inough to haue noted thē in the margent for they are cōfutation to thēselues Chap. 2. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 108. Sect. vlt. If a man should come to a Prince and keepe such order in making his petitions vnto him that hauing very many things to demaunde after he had demaunded one thing he woulde stay a long tyme and then demaunde another and so the thirde the Prince might well thinke that eyther he came to aske before he knew what he had neede of or that he had forgotten some piece of his sute or that he were distracted in his vnderstanding or some other such like cause of the disorder of his supplication And therefore how much more conuenient were it that according to the maner of the reformed Churches first the minister with an humble and generall confession of faults should desire the assistance of the Lord for the fruteful handling and receyuing of the worde of God and then after that we haue heard the Lorde speake vnto vs in his worde by his minister the Church should likewise speake vnto the Lorde and present all those petitions and sutes at once both for the whole Church and for the Prince and all other estates which shall be thought needfull Io. Whitgifte As much differencs as there is betwixt man and God so farre is your similitude The dissimilitude of the replyers similitude from prouing your purpose except you will admit the like similitude vsed by the Papists to proue praying to Saints for the one hath as muche strength to proue ani thing as the other and yet neither of them both worth a rush And here you doe iniurie to God to compare him to an earthly Prince especially in this behalfe For what Prince would not thinke himselfe abused if a man shoulde dayly and hourely sue vnto him But it is not so with God for we haue a commaundement to pray continually Luke 18. 1. Thes. 5. and he doth not respect the forme of wordes but the affection of the heart And in verie déede it is most conuenient that reading of the scriptures and praying should be intermingled All the scripture that you haue to alledge is the reformed Churches let other men thinke what they will I verily beléeue that in our maner and kinde of worshipping God in our publike and common prayers there is no cause why we shoulde thinke our selues one whit inferiour vnto them they also or the must part of them haue allowed the same order of ours at what time the like contention was about the same booke amōg our English mē which were in Q. Maries time banished for the gospel Chap. 2. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. I. And if any will say that there are short prayers found in the Acts it may be answered that S. Luke doth not expresse the whole prayers at large but only set downe the summes of them their chiefe poyntes And further it may be answered that alwayes those prayers were continued togyther and not cut off and shred into diuerse small pieces Io. Whitgifte Howe knowe you that S. Luke doth not expresse the whole prafers at large but onely set down the sums of thē their chief points What scripture haue you that teacheth you so to think if this be a sufficient answere to say the scripture hath not expressed the whole c. Why is it not also a sufficient answere for me to that which foloweth that the scripture The scripture hath not prescribed any forme of publike prayer ▪ hath not expressed any certaine or determinate forme of publike prayer to be vsed in all Churches as in déede it hath not but onely in the Lordes prayer giuen certaine generall poynts according to the whiche all our prayers must be framed Surely your fansie is strong but your arguments be excéeding weake For tell mée I pray you where haue you in the whole newe testament the Lordes prayer onely excepted any forme of publike prayer vsed in the Church described If you cannot shewe this why do you so childishly dallie Chap. 2. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. 2. Another fault is that all the people are appoynted in diuerse places to say after the Minister whereby not onely the tyme is vnprofitably wasted and a confused voyce of the people one speaking after another caused but an opinion bred in their heades that those onely be theyr prayers which they say and pronounce with their owne mouthes Which causeth them to giue the lesse heede to the rest of the prayers which they rehearse not after the Minister which notwithstanding are as well their prayers as those which they pronounce after the Minister otherwise than the order which is left vnto the Church of God doth beare For God hath ordeyned the Minister to this ende that as in publike meetings he onely is the mouth of the Lorde from him to the people euen so he ought to be (*) Vntruth ▪ onely the mouth of the people from them vnto the Lorde and that all the people should attende to that which is sayde by the Minister and in the ende both declare their consent to that which is sayde and their hope that it shall so be and come to passe whiche is prayed by the worde Amen As S. Paule declareth in the Epistle to the Corinthians And Iustine Martyr 1. Cor. 14. 1. Apol. pro Christianis sheweth to haue bene the custome of the Churches in his time Io. Whitgifte God be thanked that the booke is so per te that you are constreyned for sauing your credite with your Disciples thus triflingly to deale with it you vnchristianly say that the time is vnprofitably wasted which is spent in prayer you imagine that of the people that neuer entered into their thoughts you call it a confused voyce that is a most acceptable sounde vnto the Lorde and if to surmise or to imagine be sufficient then may we imagine your doctrine to tende to the contempt of prayer and the ouerthwarting of all good and godly order But you must knowe that there is more speciall cause why the people should rather reherse after the Minister those things that the booke appoynteth them so to do than the other prayers bicause they conteyne a generall confession of sinnes which all Christians togither as well in voyce as in heart ought to confesse neyther doth the booke prescribe the people to say any thing after the Minister the Lordes prayer after the Communion onely excepted but these generall Muscul. in 〈◊〉 Math. and publike confessions and yet if it did I sée not howe you can iustly therefore reproue it Musculus
and partes of the Churche Chap. 5. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 153. Sect. 2. M. Bucer in his censure vpon the Communion booke speaking of Bucer the order appointed in the same for priuate Baptisme writeth thus In this constitution all things are godly appoynted I vvoulde to God they Differring of baptisme not expedient vvere so obserued and especially this that the baptisme of infants be not differred for therby is a dore opened vnto the Deuill to bring in a contempt of baptisme and so of our whole redemption and cōmunion of Christ which thorough the sect of Anabaptistes hath to much preuayled vvith many T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 2. In the 153. page M. Bucers censure vpon the cōmunion booke is cited for the allowaunce of that it hath touching priuate baptisme and consequently of the baptisme by women It may be that as M. Bucer although otherwise very learned hath (*) This is but grosse courtesie other grosse absurdities so he may haue that But it had bene for the credite of your cause if you had shewed that out of those writings which are published knowne to be his not out of those wherof men may doubt whether euer he wrote any such or no And if he wrote whether they be corrupted by those into whose hands they came And if you would take any aduauntage of M. Bucers testimonie considering that a witnesse is a publike person you should haue brought him out of your studie into the stationers shop where he mought haue bene common to others as well as to you whereby his stile and manner of writing as it were by his gestures and countenaunces and by those things that go before and come after as it were by his head and by his fecte we might the better know whether it were the true Bucer or no. Io. Whitgifte It is very grosse courtesie that you shewe to so worthie and learned a man modestie The reuerēce which T. C. giueth to learned men and charitie would not haue bene so rashe as to answere that whiche he well speaketh in opprobriously obiecting vnto him his other errours which you call grosse absurdities But this is the reuerence that you giue to all learning and learned men that are contrary to your opinions I haue sometimes heard a Papiste burst out into this rage against M. Bucer beyng pressed with his authoritie But you are the first professour of the Gospell that euer I hearde so churlishly to vse so reuerent so learned so paynefull so sounde a father being also an earnest and zelous professour It causeth me the lesse to regarde what you speake of me when I heare such bitternesse agaynst all other be they neuer so zealous and excellent Well Bucers reasons which touch the quicke would haue bene reasonablie answered without spyte and you should rather haue considered them than the authour There is nothing in these woordes by him affirmed which is not in as playne termes auouched by Zuinglius in the woordes before recited The booke of M. Bucers is forth cōming to be shewed and he affirmeth nothing therein contrary to his bookes published he had more speciall occasion here offred to speake both of this and other matters now in controuersie and therefore the more he is to be credited Chap. 5. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 2. For although I wil not say but that this may be Bucers doing yet it seemeth very straunge that Bucer should not onely contrarie to the learned writers nowe but also contrary to all learned antiquitie and contrarie to the practise of the Churche whilest there was any tollerable estate allowe of womens baptizing (a) De virgin velan Tertullian sayeth it is not permitted to a woman to speake in the Churche nor to teache or to baptize nor to do any worke of a man much lesse of a minister (b) Lib. de Baptis And in an other place although he do permit it to be done by Laye men in the time of necessitie as it is termed yet he giueth not that licence to the woman (c) Epiph. li. 1. contra haeres Epiphanius vpbraydeth Marcion that he suffred women to baptise And (d) Lib. Vbi de Phry gib Priscil in an other booke he derideth them that they made women Bishops And (e) Lib. 3. in an other booke he sayeth it was not graunted vnto the holy mother of Christe to baptise hir Sonne Io. Whitgifte M. Bucer speaketh not one woorde in this place of baptising by women but of priuate Baptisme which neyther Tertullian nor Epiphanius in these places by you alleaged do disallow Chap. 5. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 115. Lin. 6. 1. Li. de merit remis peccat 24. cap. Contra E pist Parmen lib. 2. 13. cap. Augustine although he were of that minde that children could not be saued without baptisme An vntruth yet in the time of necessitie as it is called he doth not allow eyther of baptisme in priuate houses or by women but when there was daunger the women hasted to carie the children vnto the Church and although he do seeme to allowe of the baptisme of a Lay man in the time of necessitie yet there also he mentioneth not womens baptisme And further he doubteth whether the childe shoulde be baptised againe which was baptised by a laye man Io. Whitgifte Where doth S. Augustine disallow baptising by women or in priuate houses he vttereth no suche thing in any of the places quoted in the margente Will you still counterfeit is there no ende with you of falsifying In his seconde booke contra Epistolam Parmeniani Cap. 13. he dothe not onely say that a lay man may baptise in the tyme of necessitie but he also addeth that if it be ministred without necessitie yet notwithstanding that it is baptisme as appeareth in these words as I haue before sayde But althoughe it be vsurped he meaneth baptisme by lay men without necessitie Aug. lib. 2. contra Epist. Parm. cap. 13. and is giuen of any man to any man that whiche is giuen can not be sayde not to be giuen althoughe it maye be rightly sayde that it is not lawfully giuen And he dothe make the same manyfest by two prety similitudes following whiche I omitte for to auoyde tediousnesse The learned Reader maye in that place of Augustine soone perceyue what an errour this is to saye that the Minister is of the substance and beeing of the Sacrament neyther dothe he in eyther of the places eyther disallowe baptisme by women or in priuate houses as you affirme but ad Fortunatum he saythe thus In Aug. ad Fortunatum necessitie when the Bishops or Priests or any other minister can not be founde and the daunger of him that requireth dothe constrayne least he shoulde departe this lyfe without this sacrament we haue heard that euen lay men haue giuen the sacrament that they haue receyued Chap. 5. the. 11. Diuision T.
by suffering thrée or foure to communicate but the contrarie rather for the Godly example of these fewe may eyther prouoke the rest to the like diligence or else confounde them and make them ashamed especially if eyther that Godly exhortation conteyned in the booke bée read vnto them or they be otherwise put in minde of their slacknesse by a Godly and carefull Minister These circumstances excepted in the rest of the matter in this part I agrée with you Chap. 6. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 118. Sect. 1. And vpon this eyther contempt or superstitious feare drawne from the Papistes lenton preparation of fortie dayes eare hrift displing c. it commeth to passe that men receyuing the Supper of the Lord but seldome when they fall sicke must haue the Supper ministred vnto them in theyr houses which otherwise being once euery weeke receyued before shoulde not breede any suche vnquietnesse in them when they cannot come to receyue it although as I haue before shewed if they had neuer receyued it before yet that priuate receyuing were not at any hand to be suffered And thus hauing declared what I thinke to be faultie in the Communion booke in this poynt and the reasons why and withall answered to that which eyther M. Doctor alledgeth in this place of the 80. and 81. and likewise in the 152. and 185. pages touching this matter I come nowe vnto that which is called the Iewish purifying by the Admonition and by the seruice booke afore tyme the purifycation of women Io. Whitgifte I sée not howe this in any poynt is true for lenton fast was then vsed when the Communion was most diligently and often frequented and indéede the rare and seldome receyuing came in with priuate Massing which had the beginning long after the lenton fast To receyue once euery weeke is a thing to be wished if it might conueniently bée And yet notwithstanding were not the Communion to be denyed to the sicke for it oftentymes commeth to passe that men through infirmitie and sicknesse are not able to come to the Churche in whole monethes and yeares whome this wéekely communicating coulde nothing helpe and it were agaynst all reason to debarre them of this seale of Gods promises this effectuall maner and kinde of applying of the death of Christ vnto themselues this assurance of the forgiuenesse of sinnes and this Sacrament of comfort especially in tyme of extremitie and sicknesse if they be desirous of it And thus you haue declared what you thinke to be faultie in the Communion booke in this poynt and the reasons why but of what force your reasons are and how iustly in this poynt you charge the booke the Reader may now iudge Of the Churching of women Chap. 7. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 118. Sect. vlt. Now to the churching of women in the which title yet kept there seemeth to be hid a great part Leuit. 12. of the Iewish purification for like as in the olde law she that had brought forth a child was holden Srife about wordes vncleane vntill such time as she came to the temple to shewe hirselfe after she had brought forth a man or a woman so this terme of churching of hir can seeme to import nothing else than a banishment and as it were a certaine excommunication from the Churche during the space that is betwene the time of hir deliuerie and of hir comming vnto the Church For what doth else this churching implie but a restoring hir vnto the Church which cannot be without some barre or shutting forth presupposed It is also called the thankes giuing but the principall tytle whiche is the directorie of this part of the Liturgie and placed in the top of the leafe as that which the translator best lyked of is Churching of women To passe by that that it will haue them come as nigh the Communion table as may be as they came before to the high aultar bicause I had spoken once generally agaynst such ceremonies that of all other is most Iewish and approcheth nearest to the Iewish purifycation that she is commaunded to offer accustomed offrings wherein besydes that the verie worde offering caryeth with it a strong sent and suspition of a sacryfice especially being vttered symply without any addition it cannot be without daunger that the booke maketh the custome of the Popish Churche which was so corrupt to be the rule and measure of this offering And although the meaning of the booke is not that it should be any offring for sinne yet this maner of speaking may be a stumbling stocke in the way of the ignorant and simple and the wicked obstinate thereby are confirmed and hardned in their corruptious The best which can be answered in this case is that it is for the reliefe of the minister but then it should be remembred first that the minister lyueth not any more of offrings secondarily that the payment of the ministers wages is not so conuenient eyther in the Church or before all the people and thirdly that thereby we fall into that fault which we condemne in Poperie and that is that besydes the ordinarie liuing appoynted for the seruice of the Priests in the whole they tooke for theyr seuerall seruices of Masse Baptisme Burying Churching c. seuerall rewardes which thing being of the seruice booke well abolished in certains other things I cannot see what good cause there shoulde be to reteine it in this and certaine other Io. Whitgifte It is the propertie of quarellers and of men naturally bent to contention to striue Stryfe of wordes proper to quarellers about wordes and termes when they cannot reproue any thing in the matter it selfe For in all these faults here pretended there is not one that toucheth the matter of the booke onely the tytle in the top of the leafe the cōming of women so neare to the Communion table the paying of the accustomed offrings to the Curate are in this place reproued as matters of great importance being all of themselues not worth the talking off and yet béeing as comely and decent orders prescribed by the Church may not be contemned and despysed without the crime of stubbornnesse and disobedience But that your quarelling may the rather appeare I will answere your cauilles in as few wordes as I can and first for the title which is this The thankes giuing of women after child-birth commonly called the Churching of women Now sir you sée that the proper tytle The people hardly broght to leaue accustomed termes is this The thankes giuing of women after Childebirth The other is the common name customably vsed of the common people who will not be taught to speake by you or any man but kéepe their accustomed names and termes therefore they call the Lordes day Sunday and the next day vnto it Monday prophane and ethnicall names and yet nothing derogating from the dayes and tymes Lykewise they call the Morning and Euening prayer Mattens and
benefites receiued the Reader may consider Christ and the Apostle S. Paule require continuall prayer and thankesgiuing but not in the same sense and meaning that the Messalians did Chap. 7. the. 4. Diuision Admonition They should first proue that churching of women comming in vayles abusing the Psalme to Psal. 120. hir I haue lifted vp myne eyes vnto the hilles c. and such other foolyshe things are agreable to the written worde of the ainughty Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 155. for the vvhich T. C. hath noted 153. Sect. 2. The. 121. Psalme for I thinke your printer was ouerseene in that quotation I haue lifted vp myne eyes c. teacheth that all helpe commeth from God and that the faythfull ought onely to looke for helpe at his handes and therefore a moste meete Psalme to be sayde at such tyme as we being delyuered from any perill come to giue thankes to God T. C. Pag. 119. somevvhat past the midst For the Psalme 121. spoken of in the. 155. page it being shewed that it is not meete to haue any such solemne thankesgiuing it is nedelesse to debate of the Psalme wherewith the thankesgiuing should be made Io. Whitgifte A short answere and to small purpose the Psalme is moste apt for that ende and thankesgiuing in such cases moste godly as I haue declared both in my Answere to the Admonition and to your Replie Chap. 7. the. 5. Diuision Admonition The twelfte Churching of women after chylde byrth smelleth of Iewishe purification their other rites and custome in their lying in and comming to church is foolish and superstitious as it is vsed She must lie in with a whyte sheete vpon hir bed come couered with a vayle as ashamed of some folly She must offer but these are matters of custome not in the booke but this Psalme as is noted before is childishly abused I (o) Psalm 121. haue lifted vp myne eyes vnto the hiis from whence commeth my helpe The Sunne shall not burne thee by day nor the Moone by night Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 155. and. 202. for the vvhich T. C. hath quoted 101. and. 102. page In the hundreth fifty fiue these be my wordes That women should come in vayles is not conteined in the booke no more in dede is the wafer cake and therefore you might well haue left these twoo out of your reason being thrust in without all reason To y e which nothing is answered In the. 202. page thus I saye For their lying in I can saye litle I am not skilfull in womens matters neither is it in the booke no more is hir white sheete nor hir vayle let the women them selues answere these matters T. C. Pag. 119. lin 38. And whereas in the. 101. and. 102. pages vnto the Admonition obiecting that the comming in the vayle to the church more then than at other tymes is a token of shame or of some folly committed M. Doctor iestingly leueth the matter to the womens answere a little true knowledge of diuinitie would haue taught hym that the bringing in or vsurping without authoritie any ceremony in the congregation is both an earnester matter than may be iested at and a weightier than should be permitted vnto the discretion of euery woman consydering that the same hath bene so horribly abused in the tyme of poperie Io. Whitgifte The answere is fit for so friuolous an obiection and a little true reason voyde The womās vayle a ciuill custome not a ceremonie of the Churche of malitious carping would haue taught you that this is rather a ciuill manner and custome of our countrey than a ceremonie of the churche and the wearing of newe gloues as many at that time and especally at the time of mariages do is as much a ceremony as those for the wearing of the vayle first began of that weakenesse and sickenesse that nature in that daunger doth bring most women vnto thereby to kepe them the more from the ayre and therefore as I haue sayde in this countrey it was taken vp as a custome of the people and not as a ceremonie of the Churche But I perceyue you wyll playe small game before you sitte out and picke out very small trifles though without the booke to braule and barke at rather than you woulde lacke matter Of holydayes Tract 10. Ofholydayes in generall that they may be appointed by the Churche and of the vse of them Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition In which a great number of thyngs are conteyned contrary to he worde of God as obseruing of (m) Exod. 20. 9. holy days c. patched if not altogether yet the greatest pecce out of the popes portuise Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 81. Sect. 5. 6. Fourthly you mislyke obseruing of holydays And you alleadge Holydayes Exod. 20. Syxe dayes shalt thou labour and do all thy vvorke To obserue any daye superstitiously or to spende any daye vnprofitably is flat against not this commaundement only but others also Good vse of holydayes in the holy scriptures And I would to God it wer better looked vnto But to absteyne any daie from bodily labour that we may labour spiritually in hearing the worde of God magnifying his name and practising the workes of charitie is not either against this or any other commaundement For I thinke the meaning of this commaundement is not so to tie men to bodily labour that they may not intermitte the same to labour spiritually For then howe could wee preachers and studentes excuse our selues Howe might the people lawfully come to our Sermons and Lectures in any of the syxe dayes But of this thing also occasion will be ministred to speake more hereafter T. C. Pag. 119. Sect. 1. The holy dayes followe of which M. Doctor sayth that so they be not vsed superstitiouflye or vnprofitably they may be commaunded I haue shewed before that they were if they were so indifferent as they are made yet being kept of the Papistes which are the enemies of God they ought to be abolished And if it were as easy a matter to pull out the superstition of the obseruyng of those holydayes out of mens heartes as it is to protest and to teache that they are not commaunded for any Religion to be put in them or for any to make conscience of the obseruing of them as though there wer some necessary worshippe of God in the keping of them then were they much more tollerable but when as the continuance of them doth nourishe wycked superstition in the myndes of men and that the doctrine whiche should remedy the superstition through the few nesse and scarcitie of able ministers cannot come to the moste parte of them which are infected with this disease and that also where it is preached the fruite thereof is in part hyndred whylest the common people attende oftentymes rather to that whiche is done than to that which is taught being a thyng indifferent as it is sayde it ought to be abolyshed
our holydayes be some what short in number of theirs so far are we from hauing more than double as many as they had But your spirite is acquaynted with suche vntrue assertions But you saye we mighte haue all these commodities without all those daungers c. and why not as well this waye whiche the whole Churche hathe from tyme to tyme allowed as that way whiche certayne particular persons of their owne heades haue deuysed There is nothing that you haue to saye agaynst these dayes but onely their names and that those memories of Martyrs strayghten our consideration of them vnto those dayes c. and that men be inhibited from bodily labour to serue God al which I haue answered before and the latter in parte you confesse for you woulde haue certayne dayes appoynted for publike prayer the celebration of the sacraments hearing the worde and you seeme not to deny but that the remembrance of Saincts and Martyrs may be kepte onely you mislike that in the rest of the day men should be debarred from their bodily labours exercising their dayly vocations Wel I perceeue that something you woulde finde faulte with if you knewe what They are not so bounde from labour as it appeareth in the lawes of this Churche but that they may doe their necessarie businesse and in déede they are so farre from scrupulositie in thys poynte that all the punishmentes appoynted can not kéepe a number of them from their worldly affayres not in the very time of publike prayers and preaching of the worde and yet I sée no cause why they maye not iustly be wholly debarred excepte some vrgent occasion require sometime the contrarie from their bodily labours in suche dayes for are not the housholders bounde of duetie as well to instruct their families as the Pastor is bounde to instructe them and when is there a more conuenient tyme than in suche dayes If you haue suche a regarde to their worldly affayres is it not more commodious for them to abstayne wholly from worke vpon these Holydayes when they fall than twice or thrice euery wéeke halfe the daye Therefore this reason of yours as it is worldly so is it weake bothe in the respect of God and of the worlde also Your imagination that the kéeping of Easter dothe fetter the meditation of Easter to a A bayne reason fewe dayes c. and so likewyse the reste of the Holydayes I haue answered before it is a moste vayne reason and you mighte as well saye that there oughte to be no certayne tymes appoynted for the receyuing of the holy Communion bycause the meditation of the death and passion of Christe and the application of the same is fettered to these certayne dayes whiche shoulde continually be thoughte of and dayly as long as we lyue The same mighte you saye likewyse of the Sabboth daye But you oughte to knowe that the especiall celebrating of the memorie of Christes resurrection once in the yeare is no more a fettering of our meditation thereof to that daye onely than the receyuing of the Communion once in the moneth is a strayghting of our consideration of the deathe and passion of Christe to that time onely wherein we receyue the holy Sacrament By this reason of yours we muste eyther haue suche memories celebrated at all times or at no time But wyse men can consider howe farre you wander for want of reason Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 176. Sect. 3. 4. 5. Ierome writing vpon the. 4. chap. to the Galatians sayth on this Ierome sorte If it be not lavvfull to obserue dayes moneths times and yeres vve also fall into the like fault vvhich obserue the passion of Christ the Sabboth day and the time of Lent the feasts of Easter and of Pentecoste and other times appoynted to Martyrs according to the maner and custome of euery nation to the vvhich he that vvill ansvvere simply vvill say that our obseruing of dayes is not the same vvith the Ievvish obseruing for vve doe not celebrate the feast of vnleuened bread but of the resurrection death of Christe c. And least the confused gathering togither of the people should diminishe the fayth in Christ therfore certayne dayes are appoynted that vve might all meete togither in one place not bicause those dayes be more holy but to the intent that in vvhat day soeuer vve meete vve may reioyce to see one another c. Augustine in lyke manner Lib. 18. de ciuitate Dei cap. 27. sayth That vve honor Augustine the memories of Martyrs as of holy men and suche as haue striuen for the truthe euen to death c. The same Augustine in his boke Contra Adamantum Manachaei Discip. ca. 16. expounding the woordes of the Apostle Ye obserue dayes yeares and tymes wryteth thus But one may thinke that he speaketh of the Sabboth do not vvee say that those tymes ought not to be obserued but the thinges rather that are signified by them for they did obserue them seruilely not vnderstanding vvhat they did signifie and prefigurate this is that that the Apostle reproueth in thē in all those that serue the creature rather than the Creator for vve also solemnly celebrate the Sabboth day and Easter and all other festiuall dayes of Christians but bycause vve vnderstand vvhervnto they do appertayne we obserue not the times but those thinges vvhich are signified by the tymes c. T. C Pag. 122. Sect. 1. Nowe whereas M. Doctor citeth Augustine and Ierome to proue that in the Churches in theyr times there were holy dayes kepte besides the Lordes day he might haue also cyted Ignatius and Tertullian and Cyprian which are of greater aunctencie and would haue made more for the credite of his cause seing he measureth all his truthe almoste through the whole booke by the crooked measure and yarde of tyme. For it is not to be denied but this keeping of Holydayes especially of the Easter and Pentecoste are very auncient and that these holydayes for the remembraunce of Martyrs were vsed of long tyme but these abuses were no auncienter than other were grosser also than this was as I haue before declared and were easie further to be shewed if neede required and therefore (*) An vnlearned shifte I appeale from these examples to the Scriptures and to the examples of the perfectest Churche that euer was which was that in the Apostles tymes Io. Whitgifte I knowe that I might haue alleaged many other authorities for the proofe of The Repliee appealeth itō auncient authoritie this matter but I thought these two sufficient as they be in déede in such a matter as this is and your lightly reiecting of them will winne no credite to your cause among wise and learned menne You may easilie perceyue by the woordes of bothe these Authours that these dayes in their tyme were rightly and without all superstition vsed But you do well to appeale from these examples
and from all other auncient authoritie of learned menne for you knowe full well your lacke of abilitie to maynteyne this and other your opinions by the testimonies of auncient wryters nay you can not but confesse that the olde learned Fathers are vtterly agaynst you which is the cause why you appeale from them but it is an vnlearned shirt Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag â–ª 122. Sect. 1. And yet also I haue to say that the obseruation of those feastes firste of all was much better than of later tymes For Socrates confesting that neyther our Sauiour Christe nor the Apostles li. 5. ca. 22. did decree or institute any holydayes or laye any yoke of bondage vpon the neckes of those which came to the preaching addeth further that they did vse firste to obserue the holydayes by custome and (*) Socrates wordes vntruly reported that as euery man was disposed at home which thing if it had remayned in that freedome that it was done by custome and not by commaundement at the will of euery one and not by constraynt it had bene much better than it is now and had not drawne such daungers vpon the posteritie as did after ensue and we haue the experience of Io. Whitgifte Surely they were neuer better nor more pure from al supersticion and other errours than they be nowe in this Churche and therefore in that respecte there is no cause to complaine You do not truely reporte Socrates words nor yet his meaning for he doth not say Socrat. Lib. Cap â–ª 22. that euery man at home kepte those dayes as he was disposed but thus he sayth VVherefore neyther the Apostle nor the Gospell do at any tyme laye a yoke of bondage vpon them whiche come vnto the preachyng of the Gospell but menne themselues euery one in theyr countrie according as they thought good celebrated the feast of Easter and other holydayes of custome for the intermission of theyr laboures and remembrance of the healthfull passion his meaning is not that euery priuate man in his owne house kepte Easter and the other feastes as him lysted but that euery Churche appoynted such an order and tyme for the same as it thought conuenient and that this is his meaning that whiche followeth in that Chapter and expresseth his owne opinion of this mater dothe euidently declare His woordes be these Surely I am of this opinion that as many other thinges in diuerse places haue bene brought in of custome so the feaste of Easter had a priuate or peculiar obseruation with euery particular people of custome bycause none of the Apostles as I haue sayde did make any lawe hereof c. For his whole drifte is to proue that the feast of Easter concerning the daye and tyme was diuersly obserued in diuers Churches and Countries but he neyther can proue nor goeth aboute to proue that there was any Churche wherein it was not obserued And I haue before declared that the feast of Easter was obserued by the Apostles and sithence that tyme continued Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 177. Sect. 1. Pag. 178. Sect. 1. c. Other reformed Churches also haue dayes ascribed to Sainets Bullinger aswell as we as it may appeare by these wordes of Bullinger writing Obseruing of holydayes in other reformed churches vpon the. 14. to the Rom. In the auncient vvriters as Eusebius and Augustine thou mayste finde certayne memorials appoynted to certayne holy menne but after an other manner not muche differing from oures vvhich vve as yet reteyne in our Churche of Tigurie for vvee celebrate the natiuitie of Christe his Circumcision Resurrection and Ascention the comming of the holy Ghost the feastes also of the virgin Mary Iohn Baptiste Magdalene Stephen and the other Apostles yet not condemning those vvhich obserue none but onely the Sabboth daye For perusing olde Monumentes vve finde that this hath alvvayes bene left free to the Churches that euery one should follow that in these things that should be most best and conuenient M. Bucer in his Epistle to master Alasco speaking of holydayes Bucer sayeth That in the Scriptures there is no expresse commaundement of them it is gathered notvvithstanding sayeth he from the example of the olde people that they are profitable for vs to the encrease of godlinesse vvhich thing also experience proueth To be shorte Illyricus writing vpon the fourth to the Galat. maketh Obseruing of dayes considered foure wayes this diuision of obseruing dayes and times The first is naturall as of somer spryng time winter c. tyme of planting tyme of sovvyng time of reaping c. 1 The second is ciuill 2 The third Ecclesiasticall as the Sabboth daye and other dayes vvherein 3 is celebrated the memorie of the chiefe histories or actes of Christe vvhiche be profitable for the instruction of the simple that they may the better remember vvhen the Lorde vvas borne vvhen he suffred vvhen he ascended vp into heauen and be further taught in the same The fourth superstitious vvhen we put a necessitie vvorshipping merite 4 or rightuousnesse in the obseruing of tyme and this kinde of obseruing dayes and tymes is onely forbidden in this place Thus you see by the iudgementes of all these learned menne that dayes ascrybed vnto Sainctes is no suche matter as ought to make menne separate themselues from the Churche and absteyne from allowing by subscription so worthie and godly a booke as the booke of common prayer is much lesse to make a Schisme in the Churche for the same T. C. Pag. 122. Sect. 2. 3. As touching M. Bucers M. Bullingers and Illyricus allowance of them if they meane such a celebration of them as that in those dayes the people may be assembled and those partes of the Scriptures which concerne them whose remembraunce is solemnised redde expounded and yet men not debarred after from their dayly workes it is so much the lesse matter if otherwise that good leaue they giue the Churches to dissent from them in that poynte I do take it graunted vnto me being by the grace of God one of the Churche Although as touching M. Bullinger it is to be obserued since the time that he wrote that vpon the Romanes there are aboute 35. yeares sithence which time although he holde still that the feastes kept vnto the Lorde as of the Natiuitie Easter and Pentecoste dedicated vnto the Lord may be kept yet he demeth flatly that it is lawfull to keepe holy the dayes of the Apostles as Confessio Ecclesiae Tigur alianim Eccles cap. 24. it appeareth in the confession of the Tiguryne Church ioyned with others Io. Whitgifte How perfect an Answere this is to these learned mennes authorities lette the learned Reader iudge You are not a Churche but a member of the Churche and therefore seing the matter is such as the Churche may take an order in you ought to submitte your selfe to the determination of that Churche
in such matters whereof you are a member What M. Bullinger hath in any other place consented vnto I knowe not but certayne it is that these be his owne woordes And that when he writte them he was of the same opinion that we are at this tyme in this Church of England Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 177. Sect. 2. Caluine in lyke manner writing vpon the fourth to the Galatians Caluine doth not disallow this kinde of obseruing dayes his wordes be these VVhen as holynesse is attributed to dayes vvhen as one day is discerned from an other for religion sake vvhen dayes are made a peece of diuine vvorship then dayes are vvickedly obserued c. But vvhen vve haue a difference of dayes laying no burden of necessitie on mens consciences vve make no difference of dayes as though one vvere more holy than an other vve put no religion in them nor vvorshipping of God but onely vve obserue them for order and concorde sake so that the obseruing of dayes vvith vs is free and vvithout all superstition And agayne vpon the. 2. to the Colloss But some vvill say that vve as yet haue some kinde of obseruing dayes I ansvvere that vve obserue them not as though there vvere any religion in them or as though it vvere not then lavvfull to labour but vvee haue a respect of pollycie orders not of dayes And in his Institutions vpō the fourth commaundement Neyther do I so speake of the seuenth daye that I vvould binde the Church onely vnto it for I do not condemne those Churches vvhich haue other solemne dayes to meete in so that they be voyde of superstition vvhich shall be if they be ordeyned onely for the obseruing of discipline and order T. C. Pag. 122. Sect. 4. As for M. Caluine at the practise of him and the Churche where he lined was and i to admitte no one holy day besides the Lordes day so can it not be shewed out of any parte of his workes as I thinke that he approued those holy dayes which are nowe in question He sayeth in deede in his Institution that he will not condemne those Churches which vse them no more do we the Churche of Englande neyther in this nor in other thinges whiche are meete to be reformed For it is one thing to mistike an other thing to condemne and it is one thing to condemne some thing in the Churche and an other to condemne the Churche for it And as for the places cited out of the Epistle to the Galatians and Collossians there is no mention of any holydayes eyther to Sainctes or to any other and it appeareth also that he defendeth not other Churches but the churche of Geneua and answereth not to those which obiecte against the keping of Sainctes dayes or any holydayes as they are called besides the Lordes daye but against those whiche woulde not haue the lordes day kepte still as a day of reste from bodily labour as it may appeare both by his place vpon the Collossians and especially in that which is alleaged out of his Institutions and that he meaneth nothing lesse than such holydayes as you take vpon you to detende it may appeare first in the place of the Collossians where he sayeth that the dayes of reste whiche are vsed of them are vsed for pollicie sake Nowe it is well knowne that as it is pollycie and a way to preserue the estate of thinges and to keepe them in a good continuance and successe that as well the beastes as the menne which labour sixe dayes should rest the seuenth so it tendeth to no pollicie nor wealth of the people or preseruation of good order that there shoulde be so many dayes wherein menne should cease from worke beyng a thing which breedeth idlenesse and consequently pouertie besides other disorders and vices which alwayes go in companie with idlenesse And in the place of his Institutions he declareth himselfe yet more playnely when he sayeth that those odde holydayes then are without superstition when they be ordeyned onely for the obseruing of discipline and order whereby he giueth to vnderstande that he would haue them no further holydayes than for the tyme which is bestowed in the exercise of the discipline and order of the churche and that for the reste they should be altogither as other dayes free to be laboured in And so it appeareth that the holydayes ascribed vnto Sainctes by the seruice booke is a iuste cause why a man cannot safely without exception subscribe vnto the seruice booke Io. Whitgifte What soeuer M Caluines practise was in the Churche of Geneua yet in these places dothe his iudgement euidently appeare neyther doth a man alwayes vse that himselfe which he alloweth in an other for there may be circumstances to make that commendable in one place that is not so in an other He that condemneth the thing as vnlawfull muste also condemne the Churches that vse the same though not wholly yet in that poynt For as muche therefore as M. Caluine did not condemne other Churches for obseruing suche dayes it is a manifest argument that he condemned not the obseruing of those dayes in those Churches In déede it is one thing to mislike an other thing to condemne but he that maketh suche a sturre in the Churche for these matters as you do and that so disorderly can not be sayde onely to mislyke but also to condemne The place of M. Caluine out of the Epistle to the Galat. is not mente onely of the Lordes daye but of other dayes also obserued in other reformed Churches and in that place he maketh a generall answere as it were for them all as it is soone perceyued by suche as will reade that place He also that shall per vse his woordes vpon the seconde chapter to the Collossians shall finde the lyke sense in them In that he sayeth they be vsed for order and pollicie wee do not dissent from him but thinke so in lyke manner howbeit wée vnderstande as he doth Ecclesiasticall order and pollicie for in the wordes that go before the place to the Galatians he sayeth that the obseruing of dayes dothe also perteyne ad Regimen Ecclesiae to the gouernment Caluin in 4. Gal. of the Churche What better order and pollicie can there be than to haue certayne dayes appoynted wherein the people may reste from bodily labour to labour spiritually to heare the worde of God c. whiche M. Caluine called order and pollicie and not the externall rest of the Sabboth daye which is a commaundement of God and no constitution of the Churche neyther hath the Churche any respect to worldly pollicie in appoynting of Holydayes but to Ecclesiasticall pollicie whiche consisteth in hearing the wordes ministring the Sacramentes publike Prayers and other such lyke godly actions The place in his Institutions conuince all your shifting coniectures of mere follie for therein he playnely declareth his allowing in other Churches of o Holydayes than the
Sunday whiche you haue denied to be his opinion in the former two places I haue tolde you what he meaneth by discipline and order or pollicie whereby he giueth to vnderstande nothing lesse than that whiche you woulde conclude beyng but your owne deuise to serue for a poore shifte at a néede And although the matter is not greate whether they labour or no yet the lawe of the Prince and the order of the Churche is to be obserued And so it appeareth that there is no reasonable cause as yet proued why you ought not to subscribe to the seruice Booke Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 82. Sect. 1. 2. In the ende you adde patched if not altogither yet the greatest peece out of the Popes Portuis To this I answere briefely it maketh no matter of whome it was inuented in what Booke it is conteyned so that it be good and profitable and consonant to Gods worde Well sayeth Ambrose Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu Sancto est All truth of vvhome soeuer it is spoken is of the holy ghost T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 6. Nowe whereas M. Doctor sayeth it maketh no matter wither these thinges be taken out of the Portuis so they be good c. I haue proued first they are not good then if they were yet beyng not necessarie and abused horribly by the Papists other beyng as good and better than they ought not to remayne in the churche Io. Whitgifte Your reasons be not sufficient to proue them not to be good the abuse hath not bene suche but that it beyng remoued the thing may still remayne as profitable and The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 iudgement conuenient the iudgement of the Churche in determining what is best and moste fittest in matters of order pollicie and gouernment not beyng agaynst the worde of God is to be preferred before any priuate mans opinion and imagination Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 10. And as for Ambrose saying all truth of whome soeuer it be sayde is of the holy ghoste if I were disposed to moue questions I coulde demaunde of him which careth not of whome he haue Mark 1. the truth so he haue it what our Sauiour Christe ment to refuse the testimonie of Deuils when they gaue a cleare testimonie ▪ that he was the Sonne of God and the holy one And what S. Paule ment to be angrie and to take it so grieuously that the Pithonisse sayde he and his companion Act. 16. were the seruantes of the highe God which preached vnto them the way of saluation Here ▪ was truth and yet reiected and I would knowe whether M. Doctor would saye that these spake by the spirite of God Thus whilest without all iudgement he snatcheth here a sentence and there another out of the Doctoures and that of the worste as if a man should of purpose choose out the brosse and leaue the siluer within a while he will make no great difference not onely betwene the Prophetes and Apostles and prophane wryters as Aristotle and Plato but not betwene them and those which speake not by the conduyte and leading of the holy ghoste but by the violent thrusting of the wicked spirite Io. Whitgifte Christe liked not the truth beyng vttered of the Diuell bycause he spake it of an euill meaning but he liked very well the same testimonie of truth afterwardes vttered by Peter sincerely Math. 16. Mar. 8. Neyther did he mislike the woordes bycause they were abused by the Diuell before But I will leaue Diuels and speake of men of whome I thinke Ambrose mente although the truth is truthe of whome soeuer it is vttered but to Answere for Ambrose he hath sayde nothing in that sentence which may not be iustified M. Caluine vpon these woordes 1. Corinth 12. And no man can saye that Iesus is the Caluine Lorde but by the holy Ghost sayeth thus It may be demaunded whether the wicked haue the Spirite of God seyng they sometime testifie playnely and well of Christe I answere that there is no doubte but that they haue so much as concerneth that effect but it is an other thing to haue the gifte of regeneration than to haue the gifte of bare vnderstanding wherewith Iudas was indued when he preached the Gospell M. Martyr also vpon the same woordes after he hath recited the opinions of other P. Martyr maketh this resolution But when I weygh this matter with my selfe I perceyue that the Apostle here dothe speake not of the Spirite whiche doth regenerate or of that grace which iustifieth but of the giftes which are freely giuen whiche may happen as well to the good as to the euill Therefore I thinke that Paule spake simply that he might declare that by what meanes soeuer we speake well of Christe it is of the holy Ghost of whome Omne verum à spiritu sancto est commeth all truthe as all vntruth proceedeth of the Deuill who is the father of lyes You sée therefore that Ambrose is not of this iudgement alone and that his saying is verie true The Doctoures that I haue vsed in this cause be Ierome and Augustine whiche be not the worst but comparable with the best I haue rehearsed out of them whole sentences and perfite the which you are not able to answere the rest of your opprobrious woordes wherewith you conclude this question of holy dayes I leaue for other to consider of as notes of your spirite And to the intent that the Reader may vnderstande that it was not for naught that you set not downe my Booke togither with your Replie I will here set downe such portions of my booke touching this matter as you haue not answered vnto but closely passed ouer not thinking that any man should haue espied your lacke of abilitie to answere them Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision Admonition They should first proue that holy dayes ascribed to Sayncts prescript seruices for them c. are agreeable to the written worde of the Almightie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 153. Sect. 4. Pag. 154. Sect. 1. Holy dayes ascribed to Sainctes wherein not the Sainctes but God is honoured and the people edified by reading and hearing suche stories and places of Scripture as perteyne to the martyrdome calling ▪ and function of such Sainctes or any other thing mentioned of them in Scripture must needes be according to Gods worde For to honor God to worship him to be edified by the stories and examples of Sainctes out of the Scripture cannot be but consonant to the Scripture The prescript secuice for them is all taken out of Gods worde and not one peece thereof but it is moste consonant vnto the same If ther be any that is repugnant set it down that we may vnderstande it I tolde you before that touching the dayes and times and other Ceremonies the churche hath authoritie to determine what is most cōuenient
as it hath done from time to time S. August in his epistle Augustine ad Ian. in y e place before of me recited saithe that the passion of Christe his resurrectiō his ascētion the day of the cōming of the holy ghost which we cōmonly call Whitsontide is celebrated not by any cōmaundement written but by the determination of the church And it is the iudgement of al learned writers that the church hath authoritie in these things so that nothing be done against the word of God But of this I haue spoken partly before and intende to speake more largely thereof in the place folowing where you agayn make mention of it Admonition In this booke days are ascribed vnto saincts kept holie with fastes on their euens prescript seruice appointed for them which beside that they are of many superstitiously kepte and obserued and also contrarie to the commaundement (z) Exo. 20. 9. Exo. 3. 12. Deu. 5. 13. Esa. 1. 10. 13 14. Leuit. 23. 3. 2. Esd. 1. 13. Rom. 14. 6 Ga. 4. 10. 11 of God Six days thou shalt labour and therfore we for the superstition that is put in them dare not subscribe to allow them Answer to the Admo pag 173. sect 2. pa. 174. 175. pa. 176. sect 1. 2. Your collection hāgeth not together for how foloweth this these holidays be superstitiously obserued of some therfore you may not allow thē why should other mēs superstition hinder you from lawfully vsing a lawful thing The saboth day is superstitiously vsed of some Abuse of thin ges doth not condemne the things so is y e church so is y e crede the Lords praier many things else and yet I hope you wil subscribe to thē You heap vp a nūber of places in the margent to proue y t which no mā doubteth of y t is this portion of the comandemēt Six days shalt thou labour c. the meaning of which words is this that seing God hath permitted vnto vs six days to do our own works in we ought the seuenth day wholly to serue him Euery mā hath not bodily labour to do but may serue God aswell in these six dayes as in the seuenth And certainly he doth not by any meanes breake this cōmaundement which absteineth in any of these six days from bodily labour to serue god ▪ For this is the cōmandemēt Remember that thou kepe holy the Sabboth day as for this Six days thou shalt work is no cōmandement but tendeth rather to the constitution of the Saboth thā to the prohibiting of rest in any other day appointed to the seruice of God And it is asmuch as if he should say Sixe days thou mayst worke so do some translate the Hebrewe worde The place alleaged out of the first of Esay is far from the purpose ther is not one word there spokē of any holy days dedicate to saints but only the Lord signifieth that their sacrifices feast days wer not acceptable vnto him bicause they were done in hypocrisie without Esay cōdemneth the maner of sacrificing fayth so that he reproueth modum not factum their maner of sacrificing that is their hypocriticall kynde of worshipping him In the seconde of Esdras 1. in the place by you quoted I see not one worde that may serue for your purpose the wordes you quote be these I haue led you through the sea and haue giuen you a sure way Uaine quotation since the beginning I gaue you Moses for a guide and Aaron for a Priest In the. 14. to the Ro. the apostle speaketh nothing of our holydays but of suche as were obserued among the Iewes and abrogated by the commyng of Chryste And yet in that place the Apostle exhorteth that wee whyche bee strong should not despyse them that are weake nor condemne them though they vse not the christian libertie in dayes and meates That in the fourth to the Galat. Ye obserue dayes moneths and tymes and yeares c. Sainct Augustine ad Ianuar. Episto 119. expoundeth Augustine on this sorte Eos inculpat qui dicunt non proficiscar quia posterus dies est aut quia luna sic fertur vel proficiscar vt prospera cedant quia ita se habet positio syderum non agam hoc mense commertium quia illa stella mihi agit mensem vel agam quia suscepit mensem I know there be other that do otherwise expounde that place and that truly euen as they doe also that in the. 14. to the Rom. of certain Iewish feastes as Sabboths newe Moones the feastes of Tabernacles the yeare of Iubilie and such like abrogated by the gospell and yet superstitiously obserued of some But these places cā by no means be vnderstode of the days obserued by vs called ▪ by the names of saintes dayes for they were ordeined since the writing of this epistle And that you may vnderstād the differēce betwixt the festiual days Difference betwixte the Papists holidays ours obserued of the Papists the days allowed now in this Churche it is to be considered First that their Saints days were appointed for the honoring and worshipping of the Saints by whose names they were called oures be ordeined for the honoring of God for publike prayer and edifying the people by readyng the Scriptures and preachyng 2 The Papistes in their Saincts dayes prayed vnto the Sainctes we only pray vnto God in Christes name 3 They had all things done in a strange tong without any edifying at all we haue the prayers and the Scriptures red in a tongue known which can not be without great commoditie to the hearers 4 To be shorte they in obseruing their dayes thinke they merite therby something at Gods handes We in obseruing our days are taught farre otherwyse The Church euen from the beginning hath obserued such feastes as it may appeare in good writers Pag. 179 Sect. 1. Touching fastyng on the euens of suche feastes or rather absteyning from fleshe you know it is not for religion but for policie and as I thinke the same is protested in that Act where suche kynde of absteyning is established And therfore these be but slender quarels picked to disalowe suche a booke Io. Whitgifte All this haue you ouerskipped for what cause you know best your selfe ¶ What kind of preaching is moste effectual Tract 11. The firste Diuision Admonition The fiftenth and sixtenth Then (n) 1. Pet. 5. feeding the flocke diligently nowe teachyng quarterlye then preachyng (o) 1. Tim. 4. 2. in season and out of season nowe once in a moneth is thought sufficient if twice it is iudged a worke of supererogation ▪ Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 82. Sect. vlt. Pag. 83. Pag. 84. Sect. 1. These be but wordes of pleasure God bee thanked there bee ministers and suche as you mislyke of whiche feede their flocks diligently and preache in tyme and out of tyme according bothe to S. Peters and S. Paules
disciples did minister the baptisme of water in times past without any doctrine and without giuing the holy Ghost for they baptised when as Christ taught and did not baptise as we haue before shewed out of the. 4. of Iohn and out of the 1. Cor. 1. for Paule Zuinglius sayth Christe sent me not to baptise but to preache therfore some taught and other baptised But we may gather out of the sixt of Iohn that baptisme was vsed before that men being indued with true faith did sticke vnto the doctrine for there we reade that many forsooke Christ whom notwithstanding no man doubteth to haue bin before baptised Again intreating of these wordes Euntes docete omnes gentes c. Math. 28. which the Anabaptistes vse for an argument to improue the baptisme of infantes bicause Christe sayd there Docete before he said Baptizate whereof they gather your assertion that preaching must go before baptisme and therefore conclude that infantes may not be baptised bicause they can not be taught saith thus By these wordes they which deny baptisme vnto infantes do not only seduce them selues but drawe others also into great errors and Laberinthes for vrging of the bare order of the wordes of Christe they haue nothing else in their mouthes but onely this Docete baptizate teache and baptise Beholde saye they the commaundement of Christe In the meane tyme they do not marke nay in deede they will not marke that the same thing that they so much crie vpon doctrine is afterwarde also set after when as he sayth Docentes eos seruare c. teaching them to obserue all those thinges vvhich I haue commaunded you By the which wordes it is manifest that baptisme is a signe whereby we giue our names and haue our firste entrance vnto Christ the which being giuen and receiued yet notwithstanding those thinges are to be taught and to be learned which Christ would haue vs to keepe but these men vrging the bare letter Crye still that Christe sayd Docete baptizate teache and baptise VVherfore I will also vrge the same bare letter but for their causes onely if by any meanes I might withdrawe them from their desire to contende Sirs you vrge that saying Go and teache al nations baptizing thē in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost and I say this Baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost teaching them to obserue all things vvhatsoever I haue commaunded you VVherefore nowe I aske whither of vs hath the worde more plaine and apert that concerneth doctrine you verily bring the worde of God whiche proueth that men should be taught but what kinde of doctrine that is is not in those your wordes expressed But wee haue the worde of God more cleare and playne than yours which is Teaching them to obserue all those things vvhatsoeuer I haue commaunded you and these wordes are put after and not set before baptisme And a little after Although we graunt that this order of wordes hath some force in this place yet these things perteine nothing vnto young children and infantes that they should not be baptised before doctrine for these wordes perteine vnto those that are instructed in doctrine and the outward worde but it is manifest that infantes are not taught therfore these wordes can not so be referred vnto children that they ought not to be baptized And in the same booke speaking of this 3. chap. of Mathewe by you alleadged When preaching is necessary before 〈◊〉 and vsed of the Anabaptistes to the same purpose he graunteth that Iohn did preache before he did baptise For necessitie so required that by teaching he should expounde to the people the causes of baptisme For except doctrine were preached no man woulde in these our dayes haue their children baptized But after they were of yeares of discretion and had receiued faith through the ministerie of the doctrine as we reade that it was done of them in olde time they brought their children also to be baptised And in the ende he concludeth thus In the meane time we do willingly graunt this vnto them that doctrine and instruction ought to go before if at any time we come vnto infidels for none of the Heathen ought to be baptised but he which hath heard and beleued that doctrine which was before vnknowen vnto them and theirs Thus then you sée howe nere your opinion of the necessitie of preaching before the administration of the Sacramentes approcheth to the heresie of the Anabaptists If you would shifte off the matter as though you required not this necessitie of preaching before the administration of the Sacramentes alwayes in respecte of those whiche are ro receiue them but in respect of the rest which are present as this would be but a shifte so can it not agrée with your assertion for the lyfe of the sacramentes perteyneth not to those that bée present but vnto those that are partakers of them Wherefore M. Doctor néedeth not his egles eyes to espye your errors that I saye no worse but with dimmer sight than he hath might easely sée that you in this doctrine haue playnely ioyned handes with the Anabaptistes And yet I would not haue any man thinke that I mislyke preaching in the administration Preaching be fore the ministration not disalowed of the sacramentes which can be vnprofitable at no tyme but this only I affirme that it is not so necessarily ioyned with the administration of the sacramentes but that they may be rightly administred though the woorde be not at the same tyme preached ¶ Of Reading of the Scriptures Tract 13. A comparison betvvene reading of scriptures and preaching Chap. 1. the first Diuision T. C. Pag. 125. Sect. vlt. After this M. Doctor accuseth the authors of the Admonition as though they simply condemned reading the scriptures in the church and this accusation he foloweth in many wordes and in diuers places wherein as in a number of other places of their booke the authours of the Admonition haue cause to renew that olde complaynt of Theodorus which is that whensoeuer any thing is sayde that is vnpleasant that is by and by expounded otherwyse than it is ment of hym that speaketh it so that that which is giuen with the right hande is receyued with the lefte For the authors of the Admonition declaring their vtter mislikyng that there shoulde be in steade of a preaching minister (a) A daungerous parenthesis if I may so call hym and in steade of preachyng reading are vntruely expounded of M. Doctor as though they condemned all reading in the churche And here he maketh himselfe worke and picketh a quarell to blot a great deale of paper and to proue that which no man denieth for besydes this treatise he speaketh afterward of it in halfe a score pages euen from the. 159. page vntill the. 170. page so lighteth vs a candle at noone dayes
deridingly to feyne and to vtter an v truth It séemeth you want false arguments to dally with when you are fayne to 〈◊〉 some of your owne and so for want of other sporte to imitate the Caste that 〈◊〉 with hir owne tayle The. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 129. Sect. 1. But I eny that it is or ought to be alwayes a step to the ministerie I know that it hath bene the vse of long time and I know also that there be very many whyche interpr̄ete the place of S. Paule where he speaking of the Deacons that behaue themselues well that they get themselues good 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is a degree to be a minister or a Bishop But I wyl shew a mani est reasō hy it can not so be vnderstanded whych is for that as the functions of a Deacon or a minister te 〈◊〉 so are the gyfts also wherby those functions are executed likewyse diuers therefore there may be some men for their wisdome grauitie discretion faythfulnesse whatsoeuer other gyfts are required in him that should do this office of prouiding for the poore to be a good de cō 〈◊〉 notwithstanding for some impediment in his tongue or for want of vtterance shall neuer be able as long as he liueth to be a good minister of the worde and therefore the 〈◊〉 beeing dyuers 〈◊〉 those offices must be executed although it is neyther vnlawfull nor 〈◊〉 to make of deaco t a minister if he haue gyfts for that purpose yet I deny that S. Paul appoynteth that the 〈◊〉 shoulde be as it were the seede or frye of the ministers or that he mean th by those words that the deaconship is a step to the pastorship Which may yet also further appeare by the 〈◊〉 offpecche which the Apostle vseth for he doth not say that they that doe the offyce of a deaconship well shall come to or get a good standing but he sayth that in so doing they doc gette them 〈◊〉 a good standing that is they get them selues authoritie estimation in the Church wherby they may be both the bolder to do theyr offyce wherby they may do it with more sruite whereas when they 〈◊〉 naughtily they neyther dare do oftentymes that whych they should do nor yet that whych they do well taketh so good effect bicause of the dyscredite whych commeth by theyr euyll 〈◊〉 And so I cōclude that M. Doctor hath brought hither to nothing to proue why eyther Deacons ought or else haue wont eyther to preach or to minister the sacraments Io. Whitgifte It is not necessarie that euery one which is a Deacon shoulde be preferred to the A deaconsh 〈◊〉 a step into th ministerie ministerie for it may be that he shall so euill vse him selfe in that function that he be thought vnméete further to be preferred But you haue not read as I think sithence the Apostles tyme of any that hath béene orderly preferred to the ministerie not beeing D acon before Ambrose Chrysostome the Greeke Paraphrast Bullinger Gualter Hemingi s diuers other do so expound these words of Paul 1. Ti. 3. Qui bene ministrauerūt gradū sibi honū cquirunt c. that they make the deaconship a step to the ministerie And therefore your reason had néede be very good that shall conuince all these of vnskilfulnesse S. Paule doth not make much difference betwixt the gyfts that are to be required 〈◊〉 a Bishop the gyfts that are to be required in a Deacon as it appeareth 1. Tim. 3. nd in déede if you respect the gyfts required in thē both there is not much difference betwéene them therfore your reason is not so strong as you make it Moreouer I neuer heard that an impediment in the tongue or some want of vtterance were sufficiēt cau to debarre a man otherwise méete from the ministerie In déede S. Paul requireth that he should be aptus ad docendū which he may be though he hath some impe iment in spéech For S. Paul doth not meane by these words volubilitie of tongue but wisdome discretion order in teaching If you meane such a one as eyther cannot speake at al or not vtter his mind in such sort as he may be vnderstoode him I thinke neither to be sit for to be minister nor a deacon but as I told you before it is not necessarie that whosoeuer is deacon should after be minister no more than it is that a Bacheler of Art shuld be a Master of Art or a Bacheler of diuinity a Doctor for there may be iust causes to stay thē frō proceeding any further And therfore sayth S. Paul 1. Tim. Qui bene ministr au rint 〈◊〉 bonū acquirunt c. They which haue ministred well get themselues a good degree So that this reason of yours is easily pushed away I know 〈◊〉 o exp unde the words of S. Paul as you o the interpretation is not amisse yet are not the reasons sufficient to improue the other to the whiche I moste incline bicause it is allowed of moste learned men and the words themselues doe very fitly beare it But the matter dothe not depende onely vpon these words of S. Paule but vpon the continuall practise of the Church also from tyme to tyme. The. 8. diuision T. C. Pag. 129. Sect. vlt. And albeit M. Doctor be not able to shewe it yet I confesse that it hathe beene in times past permitted vnto them in some Churches to baptise in other some to preache and baptise somtimes also to minister the supper but I say also that this was a corruption vsed at those times when there were very many other grosse vntollerable abuses from the whych I do appeale vnto that whych was first that is the institution of the Apostles which limited and bounded euery function within his seuerall limits and borders which it ought not to passe Io. Whitgifte Yes I haue proued it by sufficient testimonies to haue béene so euen in the Apostles Deacons bap tized Tertul. time when the Church was furthest from corruption and now I will adde a little more Tertullian in his booke de baptismo hath these words Baptizandi quidem iu habet summus sacerdos qui est Episcopus deinde Presbyteri Diaconi non tamen sine Episcopi authoritate propter Ecclesiae honorem The highe Priest which is the Bishop hath authoritie to baptize so haue the Ministers and Deacons but not without the authoritie of the Bishop for the honour of the Churche Hierome aduersus Luciferianos sayth thus I do not denie but that that is the 〈◊〉 of Hierom. the Churche that the Bishop should go to lay his hand by the inuocation of the holy spirit vpon those which a far of in little cities by ministers and Deacons were baptised And a little after he sayth that neyther the ministers nor deacons haue authoritie to baptise without the commaundement of the Bishop M. Beza lib.
Anabaptists Catabaptistes and Papistes Io. Whitgifte Yet you should here haue excused their ignorance in certaine poynts and theyr absurd reasoning but seeing you are content so lightly to passe all this ouer and leauing the defense of the Admonition séeke to confute my collections I am contente also that it stande vntouched and will answere that whyche you onely séeme to misselyke I doe not otherwyse suspect them of Arrianisme than they haue giuen iust occasion by dislyking the publike reading of that Creede whiche was purposely made to ouerthrow Arrianisme I trust there is a great number of suche as feare God in the Churche of Englande that knowe not them but yet for their rashnesse in this point haue them in some suspiition By these examples of negatiue argumentes from the Scriptures I ouerthrow all the Anabaptistes reasons that they do or can vse in the defense of their errours so do I lykewyse yours vsed against this Church of England neyther speake I any otherwyse of the baptisme of infantes or of womens receyuing the Communion than M Zuinglius doth in his Elench against the Anabaptistes and M. Caluine also in his booke written against them But this answere sore troubleth you and therefore you onely replie against it with slaunderous wordes but least you should by such meanes abuse the Reader I will set e downe bothe Zuinglius and Caluines wordes M. Zuinglius in his Elench contra Zuinglius Anabap. sayth thus You can fynde no hole to escape at For you foolyshly reason negatiuely from deedes and examples naye from no deedes and no examples For what doe you else when you saye wee reade not that the Apostles didde baptize infantes Ergo infantes oughte not to be baptized Dothe not all the force of youre reasons consyste herein And again VVherfore it is to be maruelled at with what face they dare measure the Baptisme of Infantes by the Scripture or rather by not scripture for they haue nothing in the Scripture whervnto they may truste but they make onely the negatiue their foundation when they saye we reade not that the Apostles baptized infantes therefore they ought not to bee baptized c. And in his booke de Baptismo of the baptisme of infantes and the first originall thereof neyther I nor any other man can otherwise affirme if we respect the expresse and euident worde of God than that it is that true and onely baptisme of Christe For we may fynde many things of this sorte whereof although there be no expresse and playne testimonie of God yet they are not repugnant to his will but rather agreeth with the same of this sort is that that we make women partakers of the Lords supper when as notwithstandyng wee reade of none that sat downe in that Supper which Christe dyd institute And M. Caluine in his booke aduersus Anabaptist sayeth in lyke Caluine maner They haue nothyng to saye agaynste the Baptisme of infantes but that there is no where any mention made that the Apostles did vse it to this I answere that no more doe wee reade in any place that they did at any tyme minister the Supper of our Lorde to any woman And yet these two be neyther Anabaptistes ▪ Catabaptistes nor Papists but valiant captaines against them all Chap. 1. the seconde Diuision Admonition The fourthe There was then accustomed to bee an examination of the communicantes whiche nowe is neglected Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 96. Sect. 2. 3. Howe proue you that there was then any examination of communicantes Examination of communicantes If there hadde bene eyther commaundemente or example for it in Scriptures I am sure you woulde not haue lefte it vnquoted in the margent Saincte Paule sayeth 1. Cor. 11. Probet 1. Cor. 11. bomo seipsum Lette a man examine hym selfe c. But he speaketh of no other examination wherefore this reason of youres is altogether friuolous and without reason And yet I doe not disallowe the examination of communicants so there be a discreete respecte had of the persons places and other circumstances neyther is it neglected in this Churche of Englande but by learned and discrete ministers wyth learnyng aud discretion vsed But note I praye you the force of this argumente some ministers neglecte to examine the communicantes Ergo the Communion is not rightly and syncerely ministred as thoughe the examination of the communicantes were of the substance of the sacrament If you woulde reason after your accustomed manner you should rather conclude thus the Apostles were not examined when they receyued the communion neyther is it expressed in Scriptures that they examined others therefore there ought to be no suche examination this is your vsual maner of reasonyng but it is chyldish vnlesse it were to conclude damnation or saluation T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. M. Doctor asketh howe it is proued that there was any examination of the communicantes After this sorte all things necessarie were vsee in the churches of God in the Apostles tymes but examination of those whose knowledge of the mysterie of the Gospel was not knowne or doubted of was a necessary thing therefore it was vsed in the churches of God whiche were in the Apostles time Io. Whitgifte I denie your minor fyrst bycause no suche at that tyme woulde offer themselues to receyue the communion Secondly bicause if any such did offer themselues not béeing knowne the fault is particular to themselues and toucheth them onely not the whole Churche Thirdly bycause if it had bene so necessarie a thing Saincte Paule woulde not haue omitted it especially when he hadde an especiall cause to speake of it as he had when he spake of priuate examination of a mannes selfe 1. Cor. 11. Probet autem seipsum home c. Of the whiche wordes M. Caluin speaking in Cor. 11. Caluin his booke agaynst the Anabaptists sayth thus But what neede we so to dispute seing the Apostle himselfe in an other place treating of the manner howe euery man shoulde be prepared to the receyning of the Supper of the Lorde as it behoueth him doth not bidde euery one too examine the faultes of hys neighboure but speaketh after thys manner Probet seipsum bomo c. Lette a man examine himselfe and so let him eate of this breade and drynke of this cuppe for hee that cateth and drinketh vnworthily eateth and drinketh his owne damnation In whiche woordes there are two things to be obserued Firste that to communicat with those that are vnworthy is not to eate the bread of the Lorde vnworthyly Two things worthy the noting for those which shall communicate but not to prepare himselfe as he ought to do and not to expend and consider his owne faith and repentaunce The second that when the supper is to be receiued we begin not with other men to examine them but that we trie ourselues and surely if all things were exactly considered euen they which haue so much leysure to enquire
encreased But these thyngs are not de substantia Sacramenti and therfore not sufficient to proue that the Supper is not sincerely ministred M. Bucer likewyse in his censure vpon the booke of Cōmon prayers is of the same iudgement his wordes be these The thirde chapter M. Bucers opinion is of the substance forme and breaking of bread vvhiche all doe vvell inough agree vvith the institution of Christe vvhome it is manifest to haue vsed vnleuened breade and easy to be broken for hee brake it and gaue to his disciples peeces of the breade broken Touching the forme and figure vvhether it were rounde or square there is nothyng declared of the Euangelistes And bicause this breade is vsed onely for a signe and not for corporall nourishemente I see not vvhat can be reprehended in this description of the breade vvhiche is in this booke excepte some vvoulde peraduenture haue it thicker that it maye the more fully represente the forme of true breade T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. vlt. I haue spoken of this bread before in generall and if M. Doctor did not disagree with himselfe we are here well agreed For first he fay the it skilleth not what bread we haue 〈◊〉 by and by he sayth that he wisheth it were common bread and assigneth a great cause which the booke of seruice likewise assigneth which is to auoyd superstition and it is certaynly knowen by experience that in diuers places the ignorant people that haue bin misseled in poperie haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 kneeled vnto it and held vp their hands whilest the minister hathe giuen it not those only whiche haue receiued it but those whiche haue bin in the Churche and looked on I speake of that whiche I know and haue seene with my eyes Another reason is alleadged by M. Bucer whiche is that there being some thicker substance of bread and such as should moue and stirre vp the tast better the consideration of the mind which is conneyed by the senses might be also the more effectuall and so the frute of receyuing greater By the way note that eyther (*) Or else you speake of a matter you know not Bucers censures vppon the booke of seruice be falsely ascribed vnto him or be corrupted or else were not euen in his owne time here thought good substantiall and sufficient when there is some cause by act of Parliament afterward found I meane in the second booke of King Edward to mislike water cakes and to change them into common bread Howsoeuer it be that circumstance would be well marked that it was one thing to talke of a water cake in the vse of y e supper in King Edwards dais before they were iustly abolished and another thing now being reuoked after they were renioued Io. Whitgifte I am constant and agrée with my selfe in the truth I thanke God for it I knowe the kind of bread to be indifferents my priuate iudgemēt I haue in my Answer vttered But in such matters I submit my selfe to the determination of the Church to whome God doth giue his spirit most aboundantly so long as it followeth and embraceth the truth The daunger that you speake of is in the forme and figure of the bread not in the other qualities nor in the substance and therfore not perteyning to any thing that I haue spoken For the question is of leauened or vnleauened breade not of roundnesse or squarenesse c. Although the forme and figure also is indifferente and in the power of the Churche to appoynt wherfore there may no schisme or diuision in the Churche be made for it M. Bucers censures were vpon the firste booke in King Edwards time not vppon Bucers censure vpon the first booke 〈◊〉 King Edwards days the second therefore you are deceiued The Church hath authoritie in things indifferent to abolish or reuoke as occasion serueth and therefore that circumstance is not worthe the noting Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. 1. Besides that we be called by the example of our sa ionce Christ to vse the supper vsual and common bread for what time our Sauioure Christ celebrated his supper there was no other bread to be gotten but vnleauened bread there being astraight charge giuen by the law that there should be then no leauened bread and it is not to be doubted but that if there had in then when he celebrated his supper as at other times nothing but leauened bread he would not haue caused vnleauened bread to haue bin made for that purpose of celebrating his supper Io. Whitgifte It was not vsuall bread but properly appoynted for the celebrating of the passouer Christ vsed vnleuened bread and then to be vsed and not otherwise vsually and commonly for their vsuall and common bread was leauened wherefore this maketh against you and if you will haue the commaundements that appertethe to the eating of the passouer perpetuall Pa. 130. Sect. 2 and to be referred to the celebrating of the Lords supper as by that precept 2. Chro. 35. before alleadged it seemeth you would then must we make it a matter of necessitie to haue vnleauened bread but as that is 〈◊〉 so is this also for the kind of bread is indifferent although as M. Bucer sayth it commeth nearer to the institution The kind of bread of itself indifferent of Christe to vse vnle uened bread b cause he did celebrate his supper with it if there wer not other circumstances and reasons to moue the Church sometimes to vse the contrary Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. But this is a grosse ouersight of M. Doctor both 〈◊〉 this section and that whiche goeth 〈◊〉 fore that he hath not learned to make a difference betwene that which is not ncerely done that which is not at al done For in the former 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vpon the Admonition bicause they conclude that for as much as there is no examination therefore it is not 〈◊〉 and sincerely ministred For saythe he the examination of the communicantes is not of the Iubstaunce of the sacrament and in this section he saith that for as much as it is not of the substance of the sacramēt whether there be leauened or vnleauened bread therefore it is not sufficiently proued that the sacrament is not sincerely ministred but he ought to haue vnderstanded that if eyther the matter of the sacrament as bread and wine or the forme of it which is the institution which things are only substantiall parts were wanting that then there should haue bin no sacrament ministred at all but they being reteyned and yet other things vsed which are not conuenient the sacrament is ministred but not sincerely For example in the popish baptisme there was the substance of baptisme but there being vsed spittle and creame and candels and such beggerly trumperie it was not sincerely ministred therefore it is one thing to minister sincerely and another thing to minister so that that which is of
the substance should be wanting But of this distinction I haue spoken in another place whereinto although M. Doctor falleth in the next section and in other places yet this shall be an answer for all Io. Whitgifte It is as grossely replyed vnto but my beléefe is that the sacrament is as purely and sincerely ministred with the one as it is with the other For not euery fond superstitious or vayne opinion of euery priuate person in this or that ceremonie â—erogateth any thing from the pure and sincere administration of the sacraments except it can be shewed that the things vsed be wicked vnlawfull or superstitious of themselues Wherefore this is a grosse quarell of yours it is no ouersighte of mine for I am well assured of the right and sincere administration of the sacraments in this Church both touching substance ceremonies and other circumstances And it is too much iniurie that you do to this Church of England in comparing the ceremenies thereof which he pure to the corrupt and superstitious ceremonies of the Papists vsed in baptisme But how should you otherwise vtter your coÌ„tempt or great spite against it Chap. 1. the. 9. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 99. Sect. 1. These words that you vse like their God of the altar be slanderous and false we are as farre from thinking the bread to be our God as you and teach as sound doctrine touching this sacrament And therefore you shew of what spirit you be T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. 2. The meaning of the Admonition in saying their God of the Altar is playne enough that it is vnderstanded of the Papists but that M. Doctor doth set himselfe to draw the authors of it into hatred and he cannot be ignorant that when a man speaketh of thinges whiche are 〈◊〉 knowen he often vseth the or that or their without naming the things which he speaketh of Io. Whitgifte The words of the Admonition be these Then they ministred with common and vsual bread now with wafer cakes brought in by Pope Alexander being in forme fashion and substance like their God of the Altar Now let the Reader iudge whether I charge them 〈◊〉 or no. Your excuse is but for a fashion their opinion of this whole Churche is as peeuishly and opprobriously vttered in sundry other places of their booke as it is in this And therefore there is no great doubt of their meaning or if their meaning be not so yet was it vnaduisedly set downe in that order that me may iustly suspect their meaning to be so Chp. 1. the. 10. Diuision Admonition The sixth They receiued it (c) Mat. 26. 20 Mar. 14. 18 Luk. 22. 14 Iohn 13. 28 sitting we kneeling according to Honorius decree Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 99. Sect. 1. 2. 3. The places of scripture that you quote in the margente to proue sitting at the communion declare that Christe and his disciples sate Kneeling and sitting at the Communion at the table but that proueth nothing For you mighte as well haue sayde they receiued after supper we before dinner they at nighte we in the morning they after meate we before meate they in a priuate house we in the open Churche they being all men and in number twelue we togyther with women not strictly obseruing the nuÌ„ber of twelue or any other nuÌ„ber aboue three or foure This your argument toucheth them as well as it doth vs whiche receiue it standing or walking But to sit stande kneele or walke be not of the substance of the Sacrament and therfore no impediments why it may not be sincerely ministred It be houeth humble and meeke spirites in such indifferent matters to submit themselues to the order of the Churche appoynted by lawfull authoritie and not to make schismes and contentions in the Church for the satisfying of their owne fantasies Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered Chap. 1. the. II. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 99. Sect. vlt. Pag. 100. Sect. 1. Kneeling the meetest gesture Touching kneeling at the communion it forceth not who did first appoint it although I can finde no such decree made by Honorius it is the meetest manner of receiuing this sacrament in mine opinion being commonly vsed in praying and giuing of thanks both whiche are annexed to this sacrament and are to be required in the coÌ„municants and therfore I thinke this to be a good reason the meet est gesture for praying and thaÌ„ksgiuing is kneeling but those that receiue the Eucharist pray and giue thaÌ„ks Ergo the meetest gesture for them is kneeling The onely perill is adoration whiche may as well be committed sitting or standing But wherefore then serueth preaching there is as much daunger of contempt the one way as there is of adoration the other way In such matters Christian magistrates haue authoritie to appointe what they thinke most conuenient and the same must be obserued of those that be pacifici and not contentiosi But of sitting and kneeling at the communion more is to be spoken hereafter in the second part T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. 3. Although it be not of necessitie that we should receiue the communion sitting yet there is the same cause of abolishing kneeling that ther is of remouing the wafer cake and if there be daunger of superstition in one as M. Doctor confesseth why is ther not daunger in the other and if ther be men that take occasion to fall at the one that by superstition how commeth it to passe that M. Doctor in the. 180. pag. saith y e neither gospeller nor Papists obstinate nor simple can superstitiosly offend in this kneeling when as the kneeling carrieth a greater shew of worship imprinteth in the mindes of the ignoraÌ„t a stronger opinion and a deeper print of adoration than the sighte of a round cake And if kneeling be so voyd of all fault as M. Doctor would make vs beleeue howe came it to passe that in King Edwards days there was a protestation added in the booke of prayer to cleare that gesture from adoration Io. Whitgifte If this be a sufficieÌ„t argument to alter chaunge so decent comely an order and gesture in praysing God then what order can stand in the church seing there is nothing that may not be abused My words in the. 180. pag. be true and as yet vnanswered I will set them downe in their place that the Reader may perceyue howe little you are able to saye against them The protestation made in king Edwards dayes touching this gesture was to satissye if it might be such quarellers as you are and to take away all occasion of cauilling not for any great seare of adoration Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. vlt. Another reason why kneeling should be taken away is for that sitting agreeth better with the action of the supper wherevnto M. Doctor taketh exception both in this place and where he speaketh againe of it that forsomuch as this sacrameÌ„t is a sacrament of
puritie of the primitiue Churche Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 105. Sect. vlt. c. Interrogatories to be ministred to the infant be not straunge Interrogatories ministred to infantes Dionysius Areopag neyther lately inuented but of great antiquitie For Dionysius Areopagita in his booke entituled De caelest Hierar and seuenth chapter speaking of the baptising of infantes and of their sureties or godfathers and answering to certayne prophane deriders as he termeth them which sayde that one was baptised for an other bycause the Godfather did promise and answere for the childe speaketh thus in the name of the Godfather Neque enim hoc ille ai Ego pro puero abrenunciationes facio aut fidei Sacramenta prositeor sed ita puer renunciat profitetur id est spondeo puerum inducturum cum ad sacram intelligentiam venerit sedulis adhortationibus meis vt abrenuntiet contrarijs omnino profiteaturque peragat diuina quae pollicetur Neyther doth he say this I renounce for the childe or professe the Sacraments of faith but in this sort the childe doth renounce or professe that is to say I promise so to instruct the childe vvhen he commeth to the yeares of discretion vvith dayly exhortacions that he shall renounce all contrary thinges and professe and performe those heauenly thinges vvhich he doth promise T. C. Pag. 133. Sect. vlt. Pag. 134. Sect. 1. There followeth the interrogatories or demaundes ministred vnto the infantes in baptisme for the proofe whereof is brought in the first place Dionysius Areopagita a worthy couer for such a cup. For to let passe that M. Doctor alleageth the celestiall Hierarchie in steade that he should haue cited the ecclesiasticall Hierarchie this testimonie beyng found in the one and in the other dare M Doctor be so bolde as to delude the worlde in so great light with such babies as this doth he thinke that the Authour of these bookes of Hierarchies beyng so full of subtile speculations vayne and idle fantasies wicked blasphemies making one order of Popes an other of Prelates the third of Sacrifie s and then of Monkes some of which orders came not many hundred yeares after that time wherein Denise the Areopagite liued which mentioneth many foolish ceremonies and corruptions that no other Authour neyther Greeke nor Latine stories nor other diuers hundreth yeares after doth make mention of besides him I say doth he thinke to abuse menne and to giue them such drosse in steade of Siluer such chaffe in steade of corne as to make vs beleeue that he that wrote these bookes of Hierarchie was S. Paules scholler for the better blasing of this Denis armes I will sendè the reader vnto that which Erasmus writeth of this Denis of M. Doctors vpon the. 17. of the Aetes of the Apostles where he also sheweth togither with his owne iudgement the iudgement of Laurentius Ualla I am not ignorant what Nicephorus a fabulous Historiographer and of no credite in such matters in those matters especially which might like or mislyke those times wherein he wrote sayeth of S. Paules communicating with Denis and 2. Lib. 20. cap. an other concernyng the heauenly and ecclesiasticall hierarchie But bycause I thinke M. Doctor be now ashamed of his Deuis I will follow it no further By this it may appeare that M. Doctors Dionysius beyng a counterfet and start vp these Interrogatories and demaundes ministred vnto infantes haue not so many graye heares as he would make vs beleeue although in deede the question lieth not in the antiquitie As for reasons he hath none but only as one which hath learned his aequipollences very euill he maketh it all one to say I renounce and to say I will teach another to renounce Io. Whitgifte I knowe there is contrary opinions of learned men touching the authoritie and Authour of these bookes And yet it cannot be denied but that they be very auncient neyther is it any shame for me to alleage his authoritie seing the B. of Sarisburie is not ashamed to alleage the same booke against Harding to proue reading of Defense of the Apolog. Parte 5. the Scriptures in the Church with as great credite as I do Howbeit I wil not take vpon me the defense of them neyther do I doubte but that something may be thrust in vnto them but of all other thinges this is the least to be suspected that I haue in this place alleaged Neyther am I any more ashamed of him than you are of so often alleaging the Canons of the Apostles Hyginus c. the which authorities are as much doubted of as the bookes of Dionysius His reason is to be considered agreing fully with the true meaning of this Churche of Englande but you wipe it away with a floute as your manner is when you are driuen to a pinche Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 106. Sect. 1. Pag. 107. Sect. 1. Augustine also in his Epistle written ad Bonifacium answering Augustine this Question why seing we dare promise nothing of the infantes behauiour and manners when he commeth to mans state yet when An obiection made by Augustine The Answere to the same he is brought to baptisme and the question is asked of those that offer him to be baptised whither the infant beleeue or no they answere that he doth beleeue sayth on this sorte Nisi sacramenta quandam haberent similitudinem c. Except Sacramentes had a certayne similitude and likenesse of those thinges vvhereof they be Sacramentes they vvere no Sacramentes at all and by reason of this same similitude oftentymes they are called by the names of the thinges themselues therefore as after a crtayne manner of speaking the Sacrament of the body of Christe is the body of Christe the Sacrament of the bloud of Christe is the bloud of Christe so the Sacrament of the fayth is fayth neyther is it anything els to beleeue than to haue fayth and therefore vvhen ansvvere is made that the infant dothe beleeue not hauing as yet fayth in deede it is ansvvered that he doth beleeue for the Sacrament of fayth and that he doth conuert himselfe vnto God for the Sacrament of conuersion bycause the ansvvere it selfe doth perteyne to the celebration of the Sacrament And a litle after he sayeth Itaque paruulum etsi nondum fides illa quae in credentium voluntate consistit iam tamen ipsius fidei Sacramentum fidelem facit Nam sicut credere respondetur ita etiam fidelis vocatur non rem ipsa mente annuendo sed ipsius rei Sacramentum percipiendo Therfore although that faith vvhich consisteth in the vvill of the beleeuers dothe not make the ehylde faythfull yet dothe the Sacrament of that fayth make him faithfull for euen as it is ansvvered that he dothe beleeue so is he also called faithfull not by signifying the thing it selfe in his minde but by receyuing the Sacrament of the thing By these two authorities it is manifest that
I know But let vs a little better cōsider your assertions and marke your drifte Page 34. you saye that there are no whoremongers nor Pag. 34. Sect. 1 drunkardes in the churche that are knowem bycause the churche doth excommunicate them wherby you seme to runne headlong into this heresye of the Anabaptistes that that is not the Churche of Christe in the whiche are knowen drunkardes and whoremongers no excommunication vsed against them The whiche heresye is well and learnedlye Caluine Bullinger confuted by M. Caluine in his booke against the Anabap. and by M. Bullinger likewyse Lib. 6. cap. 10. aduersus Anabap. Moreouer this your assertion séemeth to bring in rebaptisation For if whoremongers The assertion of the Replier tendeth to rebaptisation drunkardes and such lyke wycked persones by excommunication be so cut of from the Churche that their children may not be baptised then must it followe that their baptisme is cut of also which if it be true howe can they vpon repentance be admitted againe except they be rebaptised and what is this else but to make baptisme to be iterated as the Lorde ▪ supper is when as by the consent of all the Churches Baptisme once ministred remaineth per petuall there is but one baptisme wherewith it is sufficient once to be Christened séeing that baptisme once receyued doth endure for euer as a perpetuall signe of our adoption And how can you allowe the baptisme of heretikes to be good if you disallowe the baptising of their children that be excommunicated may an heretike excommunicated baptise and is that baptisme good and may not the children of hym that is excommunicated receyue the sacrament of baptisme can any faulte of the parentes hauing once receyued the scale of the couenant seclude their chyldren from rcceyuing the same seale you haue neyther example nor precept in scripture to iustifie your assertion with it is against the nature of the sacrament the practise of the Church and the whole consent of learned wryters some fewe excepted which erred in rebaptisation and yet you boldely here set it downe without any further proofe at all S. Augustine in his booke Contraepist Parme. reasoneth wholy to the contrary for there he proueth that heretikes whiche cut of them selues from the Churche do neyther Heretikes loose not their baptisme amittere baptismum nor ius dandi baptismum that is neither leese their baptisme nor authoritie to baptise and therevpon concludeth against rebaptisation whiche must néedes followe if eyther of the other be taken away The Donatistes them selues were at the length compelled to confesse that heretikes deuided from the churche did not amitte e bapt smum leese their baptisme And in the same booke August hath this generall sentence That the faulte of such heretikes is in cutting of them selues from the churche which may be corrected by returning againe to the churche non in sacramentis quae vbicunque sunt ipsa vera sunt not in the sacramentes which wheresoeuer they are are true This being so as it is then are you very nere to Donatisme nay farre beyonde it in The Replier nere to Donatis e. saying that the chyldren of the heretykes and suche as by excommunication are cut of from the Churche maye not be baptised Surelye if the Parentes beyng heretikes and cut of from the Churche do notwithstanding Retinere baptismum keepe styll their baptisme as Saint Augustine sayeth I sée not howe by any meanes you can iustifie the secluding of theyr chyldren from being baptysed or if otherwyse I can not sée howe a Papiste beyng conuerted can bee receyued into the Churche without he bée anewe baptysed or howe suche chyldren of knowen Papistes and excommunicate persones as haue bene baptised in this Churche of Englande or else ◠here from the beginning of the Gospell to this daye can be coumpted Christians vnlesse they be rebaptised And concernyng Papistes whome you haue denyed to bée in the Churche Pag. 34. Sect. vii and to whose chyldren also you here denye baptisme I wyll aske you but this one question what you thynke of all those whiche are not onelye chyldren to professed and knowen Papistes but baptised also in the Romishe Churche for if the chyldren of knowen Papistes may not be baptysed what shall wée saye of our selues and of our Parentes and predecessours who all or the moste of them were professed Papistes is not this the grounde of Rebaptisation and Anabaptisme But that the Reader maye the better vnderstande your erroure and the rather beléeue it to be an errour in dée I wyll set downe M. Beza his opinion of this matter from whome you are lothe I am sure to be thought to dissent In his booke of Epistles Epist. 10 answering this question whether the infantes of suche as are excommunicated Beza li. Epist. Epist. 10. may be baptised and in whose fayth when as they of whome they are begotten are not members of the Churche determineth thus God forbidde that we should iudge all one and a lyke of all suche as are not called the members of the Churche for there are foure kyndes of men farre differing among them selues One is of them whiche neyther by election neyther in them selues are by anye meanes the members of Christe whome we cal by the worde of God reprobate and the vessels of anger and appointed to destruction although many of them sometime in apparance that is in outwarde profession yea and a certayne semblance of faythe continuing for a tyme wherewith they mocke both them selues and other are reckened among the members of the Churche of whome Iohn sayeth if they had bene of vs they would haue taryed with vs. The seconde is of those whiche are chosen in Christe by eternall election and therefore are the members of Christe yet by purpose onelye not in deede in whiche sense Paule sayth that he was seuered from his mothers wombe when as notwithstanding hee was a long tyme the member of Sathan persecuting Christ and in an other place sayeth that grace was giuen vs in Christe before euerlasting tymes and agayne that God loued vs when we were his enemies In the thyrde kynde wee counte them that bothe by election and in deede are the sonnes of God bycause as the Apostle sayth they are ruled by the spirite of God Finally in the fourth place wee recken those who whereas they appertayne to the election of God and be engraffed in Christ yet bycause hauing fallen in some thing as men often doe they be an offence to the other members therefore least the wound should bee deadlye whiche Sathan and the fleshe hath gyuen them neede a more sharpe remedye and are therfore excommunicated or delyuered to Sathan not that they should peryshe for it is not possible that they should peryshe whiche are the members of Christe But that godlye sorowefulnesse may cause repentance eyther that their fleshe that is the olde man dying their spirite may be saued in the daye of the
beyond all mē in saucinesse neither bring they any thing with thē from home but a vayne intollerable contempt of all good men neyther can they abide to be corrected by any admonition of others M. Caluine speaking of the gouernment of the Church Instit. Cap. 8. Sect. 120. sayeth thus Scimus politiam pro varietate temporū recipere imo exigere varias mutationes VVe know that the pollicie of the Church doth receiue nay rather doth require diuerse alterations Caluine Beza M. Beza likewise Lib. confess Cap. 5. Sect. 17 is of the same minde touching the gouernmēt of the Churche There was another cause of the Ecclesiasticall assemblies that they might ordeyne canons of Ecclesiasticall discipline and that I may cōprehende many things in few wordes that they might appoynt ecclesiasticall policie for the diuerse circūstances of times places and persones For it is necessarie all thinges should be donne orderly in the house of God of the vvhich order there is one generall reason to be taken out of the worde of God but not one and the same forme agreable to all circūstances And Section 32. speaking of this Seigniorie he sheweth that it was necessarie in the Churche whilest there was no Christian magistrate For so he writeth But there Idem were Elders chosen by suffrages or at least by the approbation of the whole cōpanie as it is very euident out of Ambrose which complayneth that certayne men had transferred this authoritie to themselues and ut of Cyprian likewise by whom we may also vnderstand that the Bishop did rule ouer the colledge of Elders not that he should there reygne but that by their cōsent he might rule the Policie of the church especially for so much as at that time the Churches of Affrica were not helped of the Magistrate but were rather cruelly vexed of them And Sect. 35. speaking generally of the gouernment of the Churche he sayeth Neyther must we simply looke what was done of the Apostles in the Gouernment Idem of the church seyng there are most diuerse circumstances and therfore vvithout preposterous zeale all thinges canot in all places and times be called to one and the same forme but rather the end and inuariable purpose of them must be looked vnto and that manner and forme of doing things is to be chosen which doth directly tende therevnto This is the iudgement of these learned men neyther do I know any that thinketh the contrarie except such as make poste haste to that braunch of Anabaptisme Sixtly either we must admitte another forme now of gouerning the Church than 6. The iurisdietion of the christian magistrate implieth a chāge of the firste kinde of gouernment was in the Apostles time or els we must seclude the Christian magistrate from all authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters attribute no more to him therein than was attributed to Nero in the Apostles time for in those dayes there was no Christian Prince to gouerne the church But Christian Princes haue must haue y e chief care gouernment of the Church next vnder God Ergo the same forme of gouernment cannot be now nor ought to be that was in the Apostles time Thus it is euident that the grounde whereof T. C. hath buylded his whole booke is a false ground contrarie to the Scriptures the practise of the Church the opinions The grounde of the Replie of learned men and the lawfull and iust authoritie of christian Princes and therefore the building is ruinous and cannot stande ¶ Of certayne matters concerning discipline in the Churche Tract 18. Of Excommunication and in vvhom the execution thereof doth consist Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition Let vs come now to the third part which concerneth ecclesiasticall discipline the officers that haue to deale in this charge are chiefly three Ministers Preachers or Pastours of wheme before Seniors or Elders and Deacons Concerning Seniors not only their office but their name also is out of this English Church vtterly remoued Their office was to (q) Act. 14. 4. 1. Cor. 1 28. gouerne the churche with the reste of the Ministers to consulte to admonish to correcte and to order all things apperteyning to the state of the congregation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 112. Sect. 3. What Scripture haue you to proue that such Seniors as you meane Deacons had any thing to do in Ecclesiasticall discipline I thinke the only discipline that we haue in the whole new testamēt except you will make admonition exhortation a part of it is Excōmunication and the execution of that is only committed to the ministers of the worde Math. 16. Iohn 20. Examples hereof wee haue Onely 〈◊〉 misters may excōmunicate ▪ 1. Cor. 5. 1. Tim. 1. ad Titum 3. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 2. Now I returne back againe to excommunication which M. Doctor thinketh to be y e only discipline in the church but he should vnderstande that beside y ◠part of priuate discipline which is ordinarily daily to be exercised by euery one of y e pastors elders as admonition reprehension there are thre principal partes which are exercised of thē ioyntly together wherof the first is the election or choise the abdication or putting out of ecclesiastical officers The seconde is in excommunication of the stubborne or absolution of the repentant The thirde is the decision of all such matters as doe rise in the church either touching corrupt manners or peruerse doctrine Io. Whitgifte I speake of y e publike discipline of y e church not of priuate admonition reprehension which may be called by y e name of Discipline but neither are they properly nor vsually so called except you wil also say y e publike preaching reading of y e scriptures is discipline these be things annexed to discipline but vnproperly termed by y e name Wherin discipline cōsisteth of discipline Your partition of discipline into those three parts in my poore iudgemēt is very vnskilful for discipline cōsisteth in punishing correcting of vice neither yet is the deciding of controuersies in matters doubtfull properly called discipline for discipline is exercised in punishing correcting y e persons not decioing y e causes Wherfore I thinke you haue forgottē your self in steade of y e part haue deuided y e whole that is you haue made a diuision of gouernment wheras you tooke vpon you to deuide discipline which is but a part of ecclesiasticall pollicie or gouernment Reade the generall confession of y e Christian churches in Heluetia tell me what it differeth from any thing y e I haue said Call to your remēbrance that which your selfe Pag. 1. 4. li 9 haue spoken pag. 14. where you call other censures of the church but forerunners to excommunication but this is a contention only about words therfore inough is said of it Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 3. As touching the
denyed but that the Synodes mighte excommunicate and who will graunt that suche as be orderly and lawfully excommunicated by manie shoulde be absolued and reconciled onely by one and yet in that they desyre this at Cyprians hands alone it argueth that the manner was at that tyme for one man to absolue but Cyprian refused to doe it for that it was a common cause and they hadde bin Excommunicated by the common consente of the Cleargie In the thirde Epistle of his fyrste Booke I fynde nothing that maketh for you or against me wherfore you must take the paines to recite his wordes before you Lib. 1. epist. 3. can deserue any credite Thus whylest you would séeme to saye muche you doe but abuse the Reader and in the ende saye nothing perteining to the controuersie Chap. 1. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Pag. 149. Sect. vlt. In Augustines tyme it appeareth also that the consent of the Churche was required for in 3. Lib. contra epi. Parmen the thirde booke against the epistle of Parmenian he sheweth that if the multitude of the church be not in that fault for whyche one is to bee excommunicated that then it helpeth much to make the partie bothe afrayde and ashamed that hee bee excommunicated or anathematised as hee calleth it by all the churche and in his bookes de Bap. contra Donatistas in diuers places hee is so farre from permitting the excommunication to one man that he seemeth to fall into the other extremitie which is to make the estate of the churche to popular and the people to haue to greate a sway For there he sheweth that if the moste of the people be infected with the faulte whyche is to be punished by excommunication that then no excommunication oughte to bee attempted for (a) An vntruth bycause a sufficient number of voyces will not bee obteyned for the excommunication By which testimonies besydes the institution of God and the practise of the churches in the Apostles tymes appeareth manifestly what hath ben the vse of the churches touching excommunication as long as there was any puritie in the churche Io. Whitgifte Augustine in that third booke contra epistolam Parmeniani sayth that he would haue When excommunication should be vsed excōmunication then vsed when the vse therof can make no schisme in the churche that is when the cryme for the which a man is excommunicated is such as al men for the moste parte do abhorre and detest so that the offender can not haue so many Aug. lib. 3. contra episto Parm. fautours as are able to make a schisme in the church for then sayth S. Augustine may this discipline be executed without the breache of peace and vnitie and withoute the hurt of the people when the multitude of the congregation of the church is free from that crime that is excōmunicated For then the multitude helpe rather the Bishop reprouing than the wicked partie resisting than it profitably absteineth from his companie so that no man doth so muche as eate with him not for raging enuie but for brotherly correction and then also is the partie himselfe stricken with feare and healed through shame when as seeing himself accursed of the whole churche he can fynde no companions amongst the multitude with whom he might reioyce in his sinne and insult ouer good men Wherby it is euident that S. Augustine meaneth him to be excommunicated of the How y e whole church is said to excommunicate whole churche not whome the whole churche doth ex officio excommunicate but whose Excommunication the whole Churche dothe well lyke of whose facte the whole Churche dothe deteste and whose companie and fellowshippe the whole Churche doth auoyde and eschue Surely if a man marke the woords of Augustine diligently he may well perceyue that Sainct Augustine giueth Ius excommunicandi to the Bishop for else why shoulde he saye that when the people be frée from that cryme they rather helpe the Bishop correctyng than the wicked person resistyng But the discrete Reader may soone vnderstande howe farre Sainct Augustine is in this place from confirming your assertion S. Augustine wryteth seuen bookes De baptisme contra Donatistas and will you not vouchesafe to name one of them vnto me nor yet to recite his words that I might knowe wherevppon you ground this popular kinde of gouernment falsely ascribed vnto him it may be that Augustine in your vnderstandyng attributeth more to the people than he doth in déede and it is not vnlyke but that lacke of diligent reading hath driuen you into this iudgemente of him But I will giue you a medicine Howe Augustine is to bee vnderstode in ascribing binding and l syng to the people for this disease euen out of these bookes that you name In the sixte Booke and fourth Chapter he séemeth to giue authoritie to all Christian people to remit and to retayne synnes and these wordes of Chryst Si cui dimiseritis peccata dimittuntur ei c. To whom soeuer you forgiue sinnes they are forgiuen vnto him c. to be spoken to all Christians but he openeth his owne meaning and teacheth you howe to vnderstande all suche lyke kynde of speaches for thus he sayeth in the same Booke and chapter VVhen sinnes are remitted vnto him that is truely conuerted vnto God August lib. 6. contra Donatist cap. 4. they are remitted by those to whom he is ioyned by his true conuersion for the same holye spirite dothe forgiue them whiche is giuen to all Sainctes ioyned in loue among them selues whether they knowe one an other corporally or not lykewyse when any mannes synnes are reteyned they be reteyned of those from whome hee that hath his sinnes reteyned dothe separate himselfe by dissimilitude of lyfe and wickednesse of hearte whether they knowe him corporally or knowe hym not Here you may learne what Sainct Augustine meaneth by his popular state and howe hée is to be vnderstanded when he sayeth that eyther the whole Churche or the people do excommunicate or absolue I woulde you had noted vnto mée where I might fynde this saying of Sainte Augustine that if the moste of the people be infected with the faulte which is to be punished by excommunication that then no excommunication oughte to bee attempted for bicause a sufficient number of voyces will not be obteined for the excommunication For I promise you I can not as yet come to the sight of it in those bookes of S. Augustine by you named neyther can you tell me as I thynke where to fynde it but this is your vsuall maner and custome In déed in his thirde booke contra Epist ▪ Parmeniani and second chapt he hath a place August lib. 3. con p. Par men cap. 2. somethyng lyke to this of yours but it is from your purpose neither doth it tende to any suche ende as you alleadge it for the wordes be these Re vera si contagio peccandi multitudinem inuaserit diuinae
disciplinae seuera misericordia necessaria est nam consilia separationis inania sunt perniti sa atque sacrilega quia impia superba fiunt plus perturbant infirmos bonos quà m corrigunt animosos malos Verily if the contagion of synne hath infected the multitude the seuere mercie of godlie discipline is necessarie for the purpose of separation is both vaine pernicious and sacrilegious bicause they are bothe wicked and presumptuous and doe more trouble the good that be weake than correcte or amend the euill that be stubborne Sainct Augustine doth not here alleadge this for a cause that sufficiente voyces can not be obteyned for excommunication as you pretende but he thinketh Excommunication to be altogether in vayne where the infection is generall But that it maye further appeare the doctrine that I affirme touchyng the authoritie Ex mmunication by bishops proued by the practise of the primi churche of Bishops in excommunicating to be true and to haue bene the vsuall practise of the Churche in the beste tyme and state of it I thoughte good in thys place to adde to my former testimonyes and answeres the authoritie of certaine Councels wherin the practyse of the Churche doth euidentely shew it selfe And fyrst to begynne with the Canons attributed to the Apostles and so ofte alleadged by T. C. In the. 32. or as it is in some bookes the. 33. of those Canons it is thus decréed Can. Apost 32. If any Priest or Deacon bee excommunicated of his Bishop it maye not bee lawfull for any other to receiue him but only the partie that hath separated him except that Bishop dye whiche hath excommunicated him in this Canon power to excommunicate and also to absolue is in plaine wordes committed to the Bishop alone The fifte Canon of the Councell of Nice speaketh of this matter in these wordes Con. Nicae can 5. Concernyng those that are separated from the Communion be they Clearkes or lay menne by the Bishops whiche are in euerie prouince Lette the sentence stande according to the canon whych doth pronounce those that are eiected of some not to be admitted of other But lette it bee examined whether the parties be excommunicated through the indignation or contention or frowardnesse of the Bishop and for this cause that the examination may be duly had let there be in euerie Prouince a Synode celebrated twice in the yeare The wordes be manyfeste and what néede suche pr sion for to examine the dooings of the Bishoppe if hée hadde not authoritie to Excommunicate alone The sixte Canon of the Councell of Antic he is this If any man hath bene excommunicated Con. Anti ch Can. 6. of his owne Bishop lette him not bee receyued of any other before he bee absolued of his owne Bishop or shall defende himselfe in a Synode and the Synode beeing persuaded receyue an other sentence The same decree is to bee obserued agaynst laye men and Priests and Deacons and those that be in the number of the Cleargie Why shoulde the Councell saye ee that is excommunicated of his owne Bishop c. if the authoritie and power of excommunicatyng did not belong to the Bishop alone In the seconde Councell of Carthage Canon 8. it is lykewyse determined That Con. Carthag 2. can 8. if a Priest beyng excommunicated or punished by his owne Bishop shall presume to celebrate he shall be accurssed In the sixte Councell of Carthage Can. 10. the same is affirmed Con. Carthag 6. can 10. In the Councell holden at Sardica Can. 13. or as it is in s me ookes 16. it is in lyke manner decréed That if a De con or a Priest or any of the leargie be excommunicated Con. Sardic Can. 13. of his owne Bishop and shall flee to an other Bishop vnderstanding that he is excommunicated of his owne Bishop he may not giue vnto hym the communion dooyng therby iniurie to his brother and fellowe Bishop By all these Canons and auncient Councels it is euident that from time to time euen in the best and purest state of the church Bishops alone haue had authoritie to excommunicate And least T. C. shoulde here flée to his olde shifte and newly deuised distinction The Bishop did excommunicate alone not as rator of the action that this is attributed to the Bishop bycause he was the chiefe of the action and did moderate it and not bycause the authoritie and power of excommunicatyng remayned in him alone althoughe the manyfest woordes of the Councells ouer ▪ throwe it and it is not to be iustifyed by any learning or good authoritie yet that the Con. Sard. Reader may the better vnderstande the vanitie of it I will recite the. 14. Canon or can 14. as it is in some bookes the. 17. canon of this Councell of Sardica wherein it dothe plainly appeare that the Bishop alone did excommunicate The canon is this If there shall be founde a Bishop prone to anger which ought not to be in such a man and being soone moued against a Priest or a Deacon shall caste him out of the churche or excommunicate him it must be foreseene that he be nor rashly condemned and excommunicated therfore lette him that is cast out haue libertie to complain to the Metropolitane of the same Prouince if he be absent then to the next Bishop c. and that Bishop which hath iustly or vniustly secluded him must be contente to haue his doings examined and his sentence either confirmed or corrected c. What néed these affections be seared in the Bishop if he could not excōmunicate without the consent of a Seigniorie or of the people For the Seigniorie might wel inough withstand this his hastynesse Wherfore it is playne that the Bishop alone may excommunicate But yet to cutte off all further cauilling I woulde haue you to vnderstande that I doo not so giue the authoritie of Excommunicating to the Bishop alone The authoritie of excommunication ascrided to the Byshop not in nite but l ces or to any one manne that I thynke hée maye excommunicate when he lyste withoute iuste cause and due proofe of the same my meanyng is not to make hym bothe accuser aud Iudge I doe not thinke that he oughte to excommunicate any before the partie be orderly and lawfully conuicted of suche crime or crimes as are to be punished by that Censure And that you maye knowe that I affirme nothing herein but the verie same that Saincte Augustine hath affirmed before me The practise in Augustins time and to the intente the worlde maye sée that my opinion in this poynte is not straunge or voyde of sufficiente authoritie I will sette downe his woordes as I fynde them in his booke De vtilitate necessitate poenitentiae and reported of Beda in Augustinus To. 10. ho. 50. his Commentaries vpon the fyrste Corinth 5. Althoughe some thinges be true yet the iudge muste not beleeue them vnlesse they bee sufficiently
sufficient to ground any certaine doctrine vpon being of faith and of saluation as you haue saide before the kinde of gouernment to be Wherefore it is you that disturbe and seeke to ouerthrow the order of gouernment appointed by God and therefore in the end you must looke to be ouerthrowen your selfe To your imagination of transforming simple vnap and vnlearned men to an aptnesse and 〈◊〉 of gouernment if your platforme were placed I will only answere that which Master Bullinger did to a fantasse of the Anabaptists not much vnlike You imagine and conceyue in your minde those things which neuer haue beene nor are extant and shall neuer hereafter be Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision Admonition The nintéenth What should we speake of the Archbishops Court sith all men know it and your wisdome cannot but see what it is As all other Courtes are subiect to this by the Popes To proue that the regiment of the Church should be spirituall ade ph 1. 23. 1. Thes. 5. 13 1. Tim. 1. 2. Heb. 10. 30 〈◊〉 yea and by statute of this Realme yet vnxepealed so is it the filthie quaue ire poysoned plash of all the abhominations that do infect the whole Realme We speake not of licences graunted out of this Court to marrie in forbidden tymes as in Lent in Aduent in the gang week when ban ers and belles with the Priest in his surplesse singing Gospels and making crosses raungeth about in many places vpon the ember dayes and to forbidden persons in exempt places We make no mention of licences to eate white meate and flesh in Lent and that with a safe conscience for rich men that can buy them with mony nor we say nothing how dearly men pay for them s for dispensations with beneficed voyes tollerations for non reudents bulles to haue two benefices to haue three to haue more and as many as they list or can get these are so common that all godly and good men are compelled with griefe of heart to crie out vpon such abhominations We omit excommunication for money absolution for the same and that by absoluing one for another which how contrarie it is to the Scriptures the complaints of many learned men by propositions in open scholes proposed by wrytings in printed bookes set out and by preaching in open 〈◊〉 haue bene sufficiently witnessed To conclude this ilthie Court hath full power togither with the authoritie of this pettie Pope Metropolitane and primate of all England to dispence in all causes wherein the Pope was wont to dispence vnder which are conteyned more cases and causes than we are able to recken As for my Lordes grace of Yorke we deale not with him We referre him to that learned Epistle which Beza wrote vnto him about these matters Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 228. Sect. 1. 2. pag. 229. I thinke this Court to be necessarie for the state of this Church and Realme and if there be abuses in it either in the law it selfe or in the persons I wish it were reformed But the whole order of the Court is not therefore to be condemned no more than it is of other Courts which cannot be missed and yet haue abuses in them I confesse my selfe to haue little experience in such matters and therefore I will speake the lesse thereof As I do mislike that there should be any time forbidden to marry in for that can haue no good meaning or any dispensations for boyes to keepe benefices or excommunications and absolutions for money for one man to be absolued for another and if there be any other such like abuse so do I vtterly condemne your vnseemely and vnchristian termes as filthie quauemire poysoned plash of al abhominatiōs filthie Court especially cōsidering wherof they be spoken to whom and by whom they argue a scolding nature a stomack boyling with contempt of lawes The Church aundered by the Admonitors superiors Neither can I suffer you to slaunder not that Court but this Church with manifest vntruthes as you do when you say that banners belles and making of crosses be allowed to be vsed in the gangweeke and that the Archbishops court hath full power to dispence in all causes wherin the Pope was wont to dispence which both be most vntrue I thinke in dispensations this Court goeth no further than the lawes of the Realme do permit Agreeable to this spirit is your cōtemtuous speach vsed to both the Archbishops mē to be reuerēced not only in the respect of their yeres and authoritie but of their singular wisdome grauitie learning and sound religion also Howbeit you reuerence them as you do all other that be in authority except some whome you do but seeke to vse to bring your intentes to passe I will say no more I thinke you haue abused maister Beza with your false reportes Beza and others used by salse information which hath caused him to write otherwise than he woulde do if he knewe the whole state of the controuersie So you haue also abused other notable learned men and caused them to wryte according to yourfansie which since that time beeing truely informed haue by their letters which are to be seene both condemned your cōtentiousnesse and their owne to much credulitie But our faith and Church dependes neither vpon M. Beza nor any other man neither do they looke for any such prerogatiue But still you are without the booke T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. 1. In the. 228. page he thinketh the Archbishops Court necessarie but bringeth no reason and further confesseth himselfe ignorant of the estate of it and therefore I know not from whence that good opinion of his should come vnlesse it be from thence that he liketh of al things be they neuer so euill which the Admonition misliketh The rest which M. Doctor hath of this matter is nothing else but great and high wordes And as for the Canon law it is knowne what a stroke it beareth with vs and that a few cases excep ed it remayneth in his former effect Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed better reasons for it than you haue done agaynst it as yet For it 〈◊〉 made 〈◊〉 e ouerthrowne but by very strōg reasons is a reason for me sufficient that the Court is established by the authoritie of the Prince and the whole Realme and fit it is that very strong reasons should be vsed before this reason be reiected For in matters of gouernment place must be giuen to the gouernors law makers and to the state except there can be shewed inuincible reasons to the contrarie whereof you haue not in this place vttered one Of Deacons and Wydowes Tract 19. Of the office of Deacons Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. 2. It was before shewed that of the gouernors of the Church there were some whose charge perteyned vnto the whole Church of the which we haue spoken some other whose charges extend but to a part of the Church that is
churche is not able to fynde a Curate as he termeth hym and a Deacon I haue before shewed intreatyng of the Seniors that the churches in the Apostles tymes myght best haue sayd this beyng poore and persecuted although I see not why the churche may not haue a Deacon or Deacons if mo be needefull with as small charges as they may haue a collector or collectors Io. Whitgifte It is the Admonition that sayeth Euery paryshe cannot be at that caste to haue bothe Wherevpon I doe but aske this question why they require them both in euery paryshe if euerye paryshe cannot bee at the coste to haue them both Bylike you make small accompte of the Admonition in that you read it not or else you haue forgotten that this question is demaunded vpon their confession But in deede I am of that opinion too and haue before answered your obiection of the Churches in the Apostles tymes as for our Collectors they be suche as put not the Churche to one halfepenye charge so could not your Deacons do Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision Admonition For they (u) Pontifi tit The ordring of deacons may baptise in the presence of a Byshop or priest or in their absence if necessitie so requyre minister the other Sacrament lykewyse reade the holy Scriptures and homilies in the congregation instructe the youth in the Catechisme and also preache if he be commaunded by the Byshop Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 119. Sect. 2. I knowe not what you meane by your Ponti tit in the margent of your booke but if you meane the booke entituled the forme and māner of making and consecrating Byshops c. nowe allowed in this Churche of Englande then do you vntruely reporte it for there is no mention of baptising in the presence of a Bishop or Priest neyther yet of ministring the other Sacramente in their absence if necessitie require onely the booke sayeth that a Deacon may baptise or preache if he be thervnto admitted by the Byshop and that he may so doe by the worde of God I haue proued before As for reading the holye Scriptures and Homelies in the Congregation also for instructing the youth in the Catechisme who doubteth but that a Deacon may doe them Admonition The Deaconshyp (y) 1. Tim. 3. 8. must not be confounded with the ministerie nor the Collectours for the poore may not vsurpe the Deacons office but he that hath an (z) Rom. 12. 7. 1. Cor. 7. 20 office must looke to his office and euery man must keepe hymselfe within the bondes and limites of his owne vocation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 126. Sect. 2. Neither doe we confounde them and yet Paule in the place by you quoted in the margent speaketh not one worde of confounding or not confounding these offices So the poore be prouided for it forceth not whether prouision be made by Deacons or by Collectours by the one it may be well done by the other it cannot be done in all places as the state is nowe But shew any Scripture to proue that the poore must onely be prouided for by Deacons else not Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this ¶ Of the offices of Widowes and their continuance Chap. 2. T. C. Pag. 153. Sect. 2. There remayneth to speake of the Widowes which were godly poore women in the church aboue the age of three score yeares for the auoyding of all suspition of euill whiche myght ryse y sclaunderous tongues it they had bene yonger These as they were nouryshed at the charges of the churche being poore so did they serue the churche in attending vpon poore straungers and the poore whiche were sicke in the churche whereof they were widowes (*) This will not agree with the doctrine you taught before Pag. 1. 41. Now although there is not so great vse of these widowes with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded and in that tyme wherein this order of widowes was instituted parte of the whiche necessitie grewe both by the multitude of straungers through the persecution and by the great heare of those easte countryes wherevpon the washing and supplyng of their feete was required yet to so muche as there are poore which are sicke in euery churche I do not see howe a better and more conuenient order can be deuised for the attendaunce of them in their syckenesse and other infirmities than this which sainct Paule apoynteth that there should be if there can bee any gotten godly poore widowes of y e age which S. Paule apointeth which should attend vpon such For it there be any such poore wydowes of that age destitute of all frendes it is manifest that she must needes iyue of the charge of the churche and seing she must needes doe so it is better she should doe some duty for it vnto the churche agayne than the churche should be at a newe charge to fynde others to attende vpon those which are sycke and destitute of kepers seing that there can be none so fitte for that purpose as those women which saynt Paule doth there describe so that I conclude that (*) This condition cānot agree with so precise cōmaundement as you haue made it before if such may be gotten we ought also to keepe that order of widowes in the churche styll I knowe that there be learned men which thinke otherwyse but I stande vpon the authoritie of Gods worde and not vpon the opinions of men be they neuer so wel learned and if the matter also should be tried by the iudgement of men I am able to shewe the iudgement of as learned as this age hath brought forth which thinketh that the institution of widowes is perpetuall and ought to bee where it may be had and where such widowes are founde Indeede they are more rare nowe than in the Apostles tymes For then by reason of the persecution those whiche had the gifte of continencie did abstayne from mariage after the death of their husbandes for that the sole lyfe was an easyer estate and lesse daungerous and chargeable when they were dryuen to flye than the estate of those which were maryed Io. Whitgifte Here you are taken in your owne trappe and fayne you would wrynge your The Replie tripped and caught in his owne nette Pag. 141. selfe out if you could tell which waye for if all thinges conteyned in S. Paule his first Epistle to Timothie bee perpetuall and must be kept vnder the great charge that be gaue vnto Timothie in the sixt chapter as you haue before affirmed then of necessitie the churche must needes still reteyne wydowes You knowe not in the worlde howe to auoyde this absurditie and therefore some tymes you saye that nowe there is not so great vse of them with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded c. and by and by you beginne to call that backe and saye that you do not see howe a better and more conuenient
order can be deuised for the attendance of them in their sickenes and other infirmities c. and in the ende you conclude that if such maye be gotten wee ought also to keepe that order of wydowes in the churche still Surely if it be an order appointed of God to be perperpetuall and conteined vnder that denunciation to Timothie in the sixt chapter these ifs and ands can take no place for there are wydowes good store in this realme of Englande so that that excuse will not serue But it is a world to sée what you dare auouche be it neuer so vntrue contrary both to the practise of all reformed churches that I can heare of and iudgementes of all learned men that I haue read of this matter But if the institution of widowes be so necessay why should they not be in euerye congregation as wel as Deacons for the Apostle speaketh as directly of them in his epistle to Timothie as he doth of Deacons Againe if this be a sufficient excuse why the church hath no widowes to say that they cannot be gotten or there is none meete why will not the excuse serue the church for lacke of your Seniors also c. ¶ Of the Authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall mattets Tract 20. The. 1. Diuision Admonition And to these three ioyntly that is the Ministers Seniors and Deacons is the whole regiment of the Churche to be committed Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 126. Sect. vlt. This is only by you set downe without proofe therefore I will heare your reasons before I make you answere In the meane time I praye you what authoritie in these matters do you giue to the ciuill Where is the princes autho ritie magistrate me thinke I heare you whisper that the Prince hath no authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters I knowe it is a receiued opinion among some of you and therein you shake handes also with the Papistes and Anabaptistes T. C. Pag. 153. Lin. vlt. c. Unto all the rest vntill the ende of the firste parte of the Admonition I haue answered already yet there is a poynte or two whiche I must touche whereof the first is in the. 126. pag. where hee would beare men in hande that the authours of the Admonition some other of their mynde would shut out the ciuill magistrate and the prince from all authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters Whiche surmise although I see it is not so much bicause either he knoweth or suspecteth any such thing as bicause he meaneth hereby to laye a bayte to entrappe withal thinking that where (a) Note these speaches he maketh no conscience to giue he careth not what authoritie to princes wee will be loth to giue more than the worde of God will permit wherby he hopeth to drawe vs into displeasure with the prince yet for bicause he shall vnderstande we nourishe no opinons secretly which we are ashamed to declare openly for that we doubt not of the equitie of the prince in this part which knoweth that although her authoritie be the greatest in the earth yet it is not infinite but is lymited by the worde of God of whome we are persuaded that as her maiestie knoweth so she will not vnwillingly heare y e truth in this behalfe these things I say being considered I answere in the name of the authors of the Admonition and those some other which you speake of that the prince and ciuill magistrate (b) VVhat {reversed} no more but to see them executed {reversed} how differeth this from Papistrie {reversed} hath to see that the lawes of God touching his worship and touching all matters and orders of the church be executed and duly obserued and to see that euery ecclesiasticall persone do that office whervnto he is appointed to punish those which faile in their office accordingly (c) The prince spoyled of authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall orders As for y e making of y e orders and ceremonies of the churche they do where there is a constituted and ordered churche perteyne vnto the ministers of y e church and to the ecclesiasticall gouernours that as they medle not with y e making of ciuill lawes lawes for the common wealth so the ciuill magistrate hath not to ordeyne ceremonies perteining to the church But if those to whome that doth apperteyne make any orders not meete the magistrate may and ought to hynder them driue them to better for so much as the ciuil magistrate hath this charge to see that nothing be done against y e glorie of God in his dominiō Io. Whitgifte The wordes of the Admonition pag. 126. be these and fo these three ioyntly that is the The Admoni tors and T. C. ioyne with the Papistes against the Queenes supremacie in matters ecclesiasticall Ministers Seniors and Deacons is the whole regimēt of the churche to be committed Wherfore they spoyle the ciuill magistrate of all gouernment in Ecclesiasticall matters for if the whole gouernmēt of the church is to be cōmitted to Ministers Seniors Deacons what authoritie remaineth to the ciuil magistrate in the gouernment of it Agreable to this disobedient spirite erroneous Papisticall doctrine is that in the second Admonitiō Fol. 8. 9. where the authors of that booke take from the ciuill magistrate all supremacie in Ecclesiasticall matters and by euident circumstances call his authoritie vsed in those things vsurped pag. 57. they saye only meere ciuill lawes are to be made And here in this place T. C. in expresse wordes taketh from the ciuill magistrate all authoritie of makyng and appointing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 orders and ceremonies of the church and giueth the same onely to ministers and eccle asticall gouerne rs he maketh it the princes dutie to see those awes executed which these eccle asticall gouernours shall appoynte and prescribe and in his Preface he saith that eiuill persones may not handle ecclesiastical matters and Pag. 35. 145. y e the ciuil magistrate may not be the head of the church in that common wealth whereof he is the head Where by as I suppose he meaneth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 supreame gouernour and that the churche may bee established without him Pag. 54. hee denieth that the magistrate ought to prescribe what kynde of apparell ministers should 〈◊〉 In diuers places he maketh such a distinction betwixt the church of Christ a Christian cōmon wealth y t hath a Christiā magistrate as he would do betwixt the church a Heathenishe common wealth y t hath a persecuting and an vnbeleuing magistrate and separateth the common wealth of Englande as farre from the churche of Englande as he can do the common wealthe of Turcia from the churche of Christ in Turcia all this I haue noted to this ende that the good subiect and those that be carefull for the preseruation of the state of this Realme and the lawefull authoritie of hir Maiestie may the better consider and
149. Sect. 1. And what reason can you giue why you should not aswell all owe Scilicet the Communion booke of it by subscription as you say that you haue hitherto done by vsing of it in your ministerie Will you speake one thing and doe an other Will you not subscribe to that whiche you publikely vse and giue your consent vnto T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. The Admonition hath no such thing as M. Doctor chargeth the authors therof with that they dyd euer allow of the booke of seruice It sayth they bare with it and vsed it so farre as they might and therfore nowe when it came to the approuing of it by subscription they refused and there is no man which can not vnderstande that it is one thing to beate with a thing and an other to approue it and therfore to beare and to vse it so farre as might be may well agree with their refusall of subscription so that M. Doctors note is not worth the noting The Apostles did beare with the infirmitie of the Iewes addicted to the obseruation of the ceremoniall lawe yet they neuer allowed that infirmitie and they were so farre from approuing it by subscribing that they wrote agaynst it Io. Whitgifte They say they haue not only borne with it but vsed it also in their ministerie c. he that vseth a thing doth as much allowe of it by vsing as he could doe by subscribing But I will not contende with you about a matter of so small weight for neyther is their learning discretion or iudgement suche that the booke is better or worse for their allowing or disallowing of it They shew their natures bent to contention and vnreuerent estimation of the scriptures by abusing of them and that is all that can be gathered out of their booke The Apostles refused not to subscribe vnto such things as they permitted vnto the Iewes for a time neyther did they beare with any thing for their infirmitie agaynst the which they wrote If they haue done any such thing note the place Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 149. Sect. 1. If those persons by whome this booke was first authorised were studious of peace and of buylding vp of Christes Church as you say they were then you that seeke to deface it are disturbers of peace and destroyers of the Churche of Christ. They were singular learned men zelous in Gods religion blamelesse in life and Martyrs at their end for eyther al or the most part of them haue sealed this booke with their bloud But by the A note by the waye way this is to be noted that you confesse your selues to haue allowed that by vsing of it which you say is agaynst the worde of God T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. Those sayth M. Doctor which authorised this booke were studious of peace and of buylding of Christes Church therfore they that speake agaynst it which he calleth defacing are disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the Church So I will reason (*) Vnequal com parisons For in these poyntes they were not buylders vp of Christes church Gedeon was studious of peace and of building of the Church therefore they whyche spake agaynst the Ephod whyche he made were disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the church We speake agaynst Images in churches and consubstantiation in the sacraments such lyke which Luther beeing studious of peace and of the building of the church did holde and yet we are not therfore disturbers of peace or destroyers of the church Although they were excellent personages yet their knowledge was in part and although they brought many things to our light yet they beeing sent out in y e morning or euer the sunne of the Gospell was risen so hygh might ouersee many things which those that are not so sharpe of sight as they were may see for bicause that which they want in the sharpnesse of sight they haue by the benefite and clearnesse of the sunne and of the light They sealed not the booke of seruice with their bloud as M. Doctor sayth for some that suffered for the truth declared openly their misliking of certayne things in it and as for the other they could neuer dye for that booke more than for the Lyturgie vsed in the French church or at Geneua For they receyued not the sentence of condemnation bicause they approued that booke but bicause they improued the articles drawne out of the Masse booke And if they had dyed for that booke as in deede they dyed for the booke of God yet the authoritie of their martyrdome coulde not take away from vs this libertie that we haue to enquire of the cause of their death Iustine and Cyprian were godly Martyrs and yet a man may not say that they sealed their errours whiche they wrote wyth their bloud or wyth this glory of their martyrdome preiudice those which speake or write agaynst their errours for this is to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of God Io. Whitgifte These be the words of the Admonition they saye that the Authors of that booke were studious of peace and of the building vp of Christes Churche and therefore vpon their owne words and confession I grounde mine argument This peace that they were studious of and sought to maynteyne by collecting and authorising this booke was a godly peace sought to be maynteyned by godly meanes and therefore suche as shall deface that godly meanes wherby they procured peace can not de iudged otherwyse than disturbers of the same peace Gedeon by making the Ephod did not séeke peace but rather glory for he erected Gedeons Ephod it to be a monument of his victorie Gedeon erected the Ephod for an other ende and purpose than God did appoynt it the Ephod that Gedeon made was the cause of idolatrie Likewise Images are expresly forbidden in the word of God there is a direct cōmaundement agaynst them so is consubstātiation also But the booke of common prayer is framed according to the scriptures appoynted to the true worshipping of God most repugnant to all Idolatrie Idolatrous worshipping and therfore these similitudes exāples that you vse be nothing like it is neither like to Gedeons Ephod ▪ nor maynteineth Luthers Images or consubstantiation but ouerthroweth them all Their knowledge was in parte in that sense that the Apostle speaketh Ex parte The prayse of the makers of the booke enim cognoscimus ex parte prophetamus VVe knowe in part and we prophecie in part c. But if they be compared vnto men I thinke for learning zeale godlynesse sounde 1. Cor. 1 iudgemēt most of thē haue not bin ouermatched by any that hath folowed And surely their learning iudgement was singular But no maruell it is though you make so small account of me poore wretch when you so basely speake of them Undoubtedly in cōparison of your selues I thinke you contēne
all learned men both liuing dead They may well be sayde to haue sealed this booke wyth their bloud How they sea led the booke with their bloud bicause they were martyred for that religion that is conteyned in this booke and according to the which this booke was framed and if they were condemned for improuing the articles drawne out of the Masse booke ▪ as you say why maye it not be likewise affirmed that they receyued the sentence of condemnation for approuing the Articles conteyned in the Communion booke I know the booke they dyed for was the booke of God yet did not the aduersarie pretende that but the articles drawne out of this and suche like bookes grounded vpon the worde and booke of God Name one of them who at the time of his death or in y e time of his imprisonmēt declared openly his misliking of certayne things in this booke I can shew you the contrarie That notable vessell of God for learning zeale and vertue inferiour to none of our M. Ridleys testimonie of the booke of cōmon prayer age Master Ridley Bishop of London in his last farewell as it is called looking dayly and hourely when he should go to the stake giueth this testimonie of this same booke of common prayers the whiche the Churche of Englande nowe vseth and you so contemptuously reiect This Churche sayth he of Englande had of late of the M. Foxe infinite goodnesse and abundant grace of almightie God great substance great riches of heauenly treasure plentie of Gods true and sincere worde the true and vvholsome administration of Christes holy sacraments the whole profession of Christes religion truely and playnely set foorth in baptisme the playne declaration and vnderstanding of the same taught in the holy ▪ Catechisme to haue bin learned of all true Christians This Church had also a true and sincere forme and maner of the Lords supper wherin according to Iesus Christes ordināce holy institution Christes cōmaundements were executed and done For vpon the bread and wine set vpon the Lords table thāks were giuen the commemoration of the Lords death was had the bread in the remembrance of Christes body torne vpon the crosse was broken and the cuppe in remembrance of Christes bloud was distributed and both communicated vnto all that were present and woulde receyue them and also they were exhorted of the minister so to do All was done openly in the vulgare tongue so that euery thing mighte be bothe easily heard and playnely vnderstoode of all the people to Gods high glory and the edification of the whole Church This Church had of late the whole diuine seruice all common and publike prayers ordeyned to be sayde and heard in the common congregarion not onely formed and fashioned to the true vayne of the holy Scripture but also set foorth according to the commaundement of the Lorde and S. Paules doctrine for the peoples edification in their vulgar tongue But I knowe his testimonie shall weigh with you as all other mens doe howbeit I trust it will pearce the hearts of the godly Neyther is this to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of God when the martyrdome of men is brought into beare witnesse vnto the truthe of God Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 149. Sect. vlt. 150. Sect. 1. 2. The vnperfectnesse of this booke and such things in the fame as be culled and picked out of that popishe dunghill the Masse booke with the contents therein that be agaynst the worde of God shall appeare I am sure in your seuerall reasons for it is not sufficient for you barely to saye so without witte learning or reason This you know right wel that in so saying you make the Papists Aduantage gi uen to the papistes by the Admonitours leape for ioye bicause they haue gotten suche companions to assaulte this booke whylest they rest them lye as it were in sleepe O that the wyse men of this realme suche I meane as be in authoritie see not this Popishe practise and seeke not with more earnestnesse to preuent it Will ye suffer the Papists to gather strength and to multiplie by tollerating such Libellers vnder the pretēce of reformatiō to discredite so muche as lyeth in them yea to ouerthrow the whole state and substance of religion in this Churche Bee not secure but watche and remember the beginning and encrease of the Anabaptistes of late in Germanie whiche I haue described in my Preface to this booke You saye that you can not but much maruell at the craftie wilynesse of those men whose partes it had beene first to haue proued eache and euery content therin to be agreable to Gods word c. Nay surely but it were your parts rather to proue The apponēt must proue by rules of Logike that there is something therein contrarie or not agreable to Gods worde For such as be learned and knowe the manner of reasoning say that the Opponent must proue or improue and not the answerer They stande to the defense and mayntenance of the booke you seeke to ouerthrowe it it is your partes therfore to iustifie your assertions by reasons and arguments T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. For the Papistes triumphe I haue answered before and I will not striue about the Goates 〈◊〉 who is the apponent and who the respondent in this difference Io. Whitgifte Thus you passe all this ouer in silence for I doe not remember where you haue answered one worde to it Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision Admonition They should first proue by the worde of God that a reading seruice going before and with the administration of the sacraments is according to the worde of God that wafer cakes for theyr bread when they minister it surplesse and cope to doe it in churching of women comming in vayles abuong the Psalme to hir I haue lifted vp mine eyes vnto the hilles c. and suche other Psal. 120. foolishe things are agreable to the written worde of the almightie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 151. Sect. 2. 152. Sect 1. I doe not well vnderstande your meaning would you haue vs to proue that to reade prayers before and with the administration of The order of prayers in the Communion booke agreable to y e scripture the sacraments is according to the worde of God In deede in the booke of seruice there is first appoynted to be read some one or two profitable sentences mouing eyther to prayer or to repentance after followeth a generall confession then the Lords prayer and certayne Psalmes nexte certayne chapters out of the olde and newe Testamente c. laste of all the administration of the sacramente If you aske me of the sentences they be scripture If of the Lordes prayer Psalmes and chapters they be scripture also If of the sacrament of the Supper it is according to scripture Matth. 26. Marke 14. Luke 22. 1. Cor. 11. If of
the other prayers annexed they be lykewise according to the scripture for they be made to God in Christes name for suche thinges as we neede or as we desire according to that saying of Christ Quicquid petieritis c. VVhatsoeuer you aske my father in my name c. And agayne Petite dabitur vobis Aske and it shall be giuen vnto you Mat. 7. Iacob 1. If any of you lacke wisdome let him aske it c. And. 1. Timoth. 2. with other infinite places besides If you would haue vs to proue that to reade prayers or scripture Only Zuinfildians misliked reading of scriptures in the Church is according to the word of God which you seeme to denie then we say vnto you ▪ that if there were any pietie in you any religion any learning you would make no such vayne and godlesse doubts was there euer any from the beginning of the world to this day the Zuinfildians onely excepted that misliked reading of prayers and scriptures in the Church but you Of wafer cakes ministring in surplesse or cope churching of women I haue spoken Pag. 154. Sect. 3. before wafer cakes be bread surplesse cope by those that haue authoritie in the church are thought to perteyne to comelynesse and decencie Churching of women is to giue thāks for their deliuerāce Bread to be vsed in the Cōmunion comelynesse and decencie giuing of thanks for deliuerance out of peril daunger be agreable to Gods word therfore al these things be agreable to gods word The forme of bread whether it ought to be cake bread or loafe bread euery particular Determination of the Churche in things indifferent thing that perteyneth to decencie or comelynesse at what time in what place with what words we ought to giue thanks is not particularly written in scripture no more than it is that you were baptized And therfore as I haue proued before in such cases the Church hath to determine and appoynt an order Admonition But their craft is playne wherin they deceyue them selues standing so much vpon this word repugnant as though nothing were repugnant or agaynst the worde of God but that whiche is expressely forbidden by playne commaundement they know well inough and would confesse if eyther they were not blinded or else their hearts hardned that in the circumstances eache content 〈◊〉 iudgement wherwith we iustly finde fault and they too contentiously for the loue of their liuings maynteyne smelling of their olde Popish priesthoode is agaynst the worde of God Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 156. 157. Sect. 1. If they were disposed to be craftie I thinke they might soone deceyue you for any great circumspection or discretion that appeareth to be in you by this booke You finde great fault that we stande so muche vpō this word repugnant as though nothing were repugnant or agaynst the word of God but that which is expressely forbidden by playne cōmaundement and herein you saye we deceyue our selues But you do not tell vs howe we are deceyued neither do you let vs vnderstande what you thinke this worde repugnant doth signifie This is but slender dealing to finde a fault and not to correct it you should yet haue tolde vs your opiniō of the signification of this worde seeing so great a matter doth depende vpon it True it is that this worde repugnant or agaynst the worde of God is to The worde repugnant expounded be contrarie to that which in the worde is comaunded or forbidden not onely in manifest words but also in sense and vnderstanding except you vnderstande this worde repugnant on this sorte you wyll bring in many poynts of daungerous doctrine for we reade in the Acts. 2. 4. that the Apostles had all things common and yet Christians haue not al things common Those that were then conuerted to the Gospell solde all they had and layde it at the Apostles feete Act 4. Now it is farre otherwise Then Christ ministred his supper at night after supper we in the morning before dinner he in a priuate house we in the publike Churche he to men onely we to women also with a great many of such apparant contrarieties which be none in deede bicause they be not agaynst any thing cōmaunded or forbidden to be done or not to be done eyther in expresse words or in true sense And therfore you are greatly deceyued when you think that we are persuaded that those things which you find fault with be agaynst the worde of God As for this your saying If eyther they were not blinded or else their harts hardened I pray God it be not most aptly spoken of your selues but I will not take vpon me to iudge those secrets that be onely knowne to God and your selues Admonition By the worde of God it is an office of preaching they make it an office of reading Christe sayde (a) Mat. 26. 19 Mar. 16. 15 go preache Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 158. Sect. vlt. You say by the worde of God the ministerie is an office of preaching and we make it an office of reading To proue it to be an office of preaching you note in your margent Matth. 26. But I thinke your meaning is the. 28. and Mark 16. where Christ sayth to his Disciples Go therfore and teach all nations c. What if a man should say vnto you that this commission was giuen onely to the Apostles for he sayth Go into the whole worlde where as you teach now that no man may come into the ministerie except he first haue a stocke then must he keepe him with his flocke and go no further If this doctrine be true then can not this place serue your turne for as the office of Apostle is ceased by your doctrine so is this commission also except you will haue the one part to stande that is Goe and preach and this to be abrogated In vniuersum mundum into the vvhole vvorlde Io. Whitgifte You haue not any where answered directly to any of this and to the most of it and diuers other things included betwixt the. 151. Page and the. 171. You haue not answered one woorde which the Reader by conference may vnderstand and I for breuities sake haue omitted to set downe ¶ Of reading of Homilies and the Apocrypha in the Churche Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision Admonition The second reason In this booke also it is appoynted that after the Creede if there be no sermon an homily must follow eyther already set out or hereafter to be set out This is scarce playne dealyng that they would haue vs to consent vnto that which we neuer saw and whiche is to be set out hereafter we hauing had such cause already to distrust them by that whiche is already set out beyng corrupt and straunge to maynteyne an vnlearned and reading ministerie And sith it is playne that mens workes ought to be kepte in and nothing else but the voyce of God and holy Scriptures
in whiche onely are conteyned (y) 2. Ti. 3. 6. 17. all fulnesse and sufficiencie to decide controuersies 2. Pet. 1. 20 Rom. 1. 16. 1. Cor. 1. 18 c. must sound in his church for the very name Apocrypha testifieth that they ought rather to be kept close than to be vttered Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 171. Sect. 1. 2. Your second reason in fewe wordes is this In the booke of common Homilies prayer it is appointed that after the Creede if there be no sermon an Homilie must follow eyther already set out or hereafter to be set out but you knowe not what will hereafter be set out therefore you will not subscribe You haue no cause to suspect any thing touching religion set out by publike authoritie for so is the booke or hereafter to be set out by common authoritie Hitherto you are not able to conuince any Homilie set out by common authoritie of any errour and therfore you ought not Our homilies cannot be accused of any errour to be suspicious of any that is to come If any Homilie shall hereafter be set out wherein you mislike any thing you neede not to reade it the booke doth not appoynt you this or that Homily to reade but some one which you like best But what neede you to be scrupulous in this matter if you be disposed to preache then neede you reade no Homilie at all therefore this is no reason T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 2. I answere that although it be meete that as we hope that the Homilies which are made already be godly so those that shall be made hereafter shal be likewise yet considering the mutabilitie of men and that of tentimes to the worse it is not meere nay it is merely vnlawfull to subscribe to a blancke seyng that we cannot witnesse or allow of those thinges which we haue not seene nor hearde Io. Whitgifte If you be disposed to quarrell it is an easie matter to picke out occasions but your suspicion is without cause and I thinke a modest protestation in that poynt would not be refused Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 171. Sect. 3. 4. This assertion that in the holy Scriptures is conteyned all fulnesse to decide controuersies if you meane controuersies in matters of fayth and in matters touching saluation is very true but you haue vsed litle discretion in quoting some places to proue the same I finde no faulte with you for cyting the sixte verse of the. 2. Tim. 3. for the. 16. verse that is but a small ouersight and it may be in the Printer but howe do you conclude this assertion of the wordes of Peter 2. Epist. cap. 1. verse 20. which be these so that ye firste knovv that no prophecie of the Scripture is of any priuate motion for this place only proueth that the Scriptures be not of men but of the holy ghost it speaketh nothing of the sufficiencie of the Scripture Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 172. Sect. 1. 2. 3. That place also 1. Cor. 1. is not fitly applied to this purpose there is Scripture sufficient directly to proue the sufficiencie of scripture so that you should not haue needed to giue the aduersarie occasion to carpe at the vnaptnesse of these places for that purpose Homilies conteyning doctrine agreable to the Scriptures be of the same nature that sermons be Wherefore if it be not lawfull in the Churche to reade Homilies neyther is it lawfull to preach Sermons The reason is all one neither is there any difference but that Homelies be read in the booke Sermons sayde without the booke Homilies are pithie learned and sounde sermons oftentimes be Some Homilies better than some sermons wordes without matter vnlearned erroneous T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. vlt. The place vnto the Corinthes is the same vnto the Romaines and M. Doctor approuing one hath no cause to finde faulte with the other For the hemilies first of all I haue shewed how absurde a saying and how vnlike a diuine it is to matche reading of homilies with preaching of sermons For if the reading of the holy Scriptures is nothing so fruitefull as the preaching of them muche lesse is the reading of homilies to be for their fruite matched with preaching of sermons Io. Whitgifte Neither of both the places doth proue directly that for the which the Authors of the Admonition do vse them and there be other places more manifest which they haue omitted I haue answered in that place to all your Replie concerning this point I do not match reading of Homilies with Sermons simply or with all sermons but with Reading of Scriptures a meanes to iudge of sermons some and to some sermons I do preferre the Reading of Homilies for the causes conteyned in mine Answere to the Admonition Both the reading and the preaching of the Scriptures is necessarie and the one in diuerse respectes as necessarie and in some respectes more necessarie than the other For the Scripture is the rule to discerne and iudge sermons and preachers by Christe willeth to take heede of false Math. 7. Prophetes Math. 7. Which can not be done without the diligent reading of the Scriptures those of Thessalonica are to be commended for trying by the Scriptures the Act. 17. doctrine preached vnto them Act. 17. S. Iohn willeth that the spirites be tried whether Iohn epist. 4. Cal. 1. they be of God or no which must be by the Scriptures S. Paule Gal. 1. willeth them to holde him accursed that shall preach any other Gospell vnto them whiche they can not do without that knowledge whiche God doth giue vnto them by reading of the Scriptures Infinite places there be that tendeth to this ende but I haue spoken of this matter before This is my opinion that both reading and preaching be most necessarie but in some respectes the one to be preferred before the other Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. vlt. There remayneth that I shew briefly that neyther the Homilies nor the Apocrypha are at all to be redde in the Churche Wherein first it is good to consider the order which the Lorde kept with his people in tymes past when he commaunded that no vessell nor no instrument either besome or flesh hooke or panne c. should come into the temple â–ª but those onely which were sanctified and set aparte for that vse And in Leuiticus he will haue no other trumpets blowne to call the Numb 10. people togither but those onely which were set aparte for that purpose What should the meaning of this lawe be The matter of other common vessels and trumpets was the same oftentimes which theirs was the same forme also and the other beesomes and hookes and trumpets hable to serne for the vses ofsweeping and sounding c. as well as those of the temple and as those whiche were set aparte wherfore mought not
it be written redde or preached by man for the spirite of God is the Author of it man is but the instrument The rest of your proofes taken frō the vse of the Church as you say be all ab authoritate negatiuè and most of them ab authoritate hominum whiche kinde of argument your self haue before vtterly condēned I haue oftentimes could you that an argument à non facto ad non ius it is M. Zuinglius and other mens iudgement as well as mine is good neyther in diuine nor yet in humane thinges So far as I can learne Ionathan the Calday Paraphrast florished not in Christes Ionathan the Cald y paraphrast before christes time time as you say but. 42. yeares before Christ was borne and I thinke there is none of these Paraphrastes so faithfull in interpreting but that they misse in some places you can not but acknowledge that one good Sermon or Homilie of some learned mans well plainely redde to the people may edifie them more than the reading of these Paraphrastes And yet I suppose you knowe that the Iewes haue those Paraphrastes as yet redde in their Churches wherefore hitherto if you haue spoken any thing it is against your selfe But you say that this practise continued still in the Churches of god c. and you proue it by Iustine Martyr bycause he mentioneth nothing read in the churche but Monuments of the Prophetes and Ipostles Concerning your proofe I haue declared already of what force it is being drawne ab authoritate humana negatiuè Now that this practise continued not still in the Church you shall easily perceyue if you peruse that which Eusebius writeth The epistle of Ciement reade in the churche out of an Epistle of Dionysius Corinthius to Soter Byshop of Rome where he writeth after this sorte And in this epistle there is mention of an Epistle of Clemēt written to the Corinthians declaring that according to the olde custome it was read in the Euseb. lib. 4 ▪ Cap. 2 Church For thus he sayth we haue this day celebrated the holy day of the Lorde wherein we read your Epistle whiche we will alwayes read for admonition sake in like sorte as Dionysius liued about the yeare 147. the former epistle written to vs from Clement The Authors of the Centuries writing of this Dionysius thinke it not vnlike that his Epistles were also read in the Churche bicause Eusebius calleth them Catholicas Catholike Their woordes be these Non videtur prae ereundum quòd Eusebius basce epistolas Catholicas vocet fortè quia in Ecc esijs Cent. 2. cap. 10. piorum solitae sunt legi sicut Clementis This thing woulde not be omitted that Eusebius calleth these epistles Catholike peraduenture bicause they were wonte to be read in the Churches of the faythfull as the Epistle of Clement was And this may testifie of the practise of the Churche in Iustinus Martyrs time better than your negatiue Concil vas La. 4. argument And of the practise since the. 4. Can. Concil Vasens will giue sufficient testimonie where it is decreed that if the ministers be let by infirmitie or sickenesse the Homilies Homilies of fathers read in the church of the fathers should be read of the Deacons Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 172. Sect. 3. But of readyng Homilyes in the Churche I haue some thing Bucers opinion of ho lies in the churche spoken before nowe it shall be sufficient onely to set downe Master Bucers iudgement of this matter in his notes vpon the Communion booke whiche is this It is better that vvhere there lackes to expounde the Scriptures vnto the people there shoulde be Godly and learned Homilyes redde vnto them rather than they shoulde haue no exhortation at all in the administration of the Supper And a litle after There be too fevve Homilies and to fevve poyntes of Religion taught in them vvhen therefore the Lorde shall blesse this kingdome vvith some excellent Preachers lette them be commaunded to make mo Homilyes of the principall poynts of Religion vvhich may be redde to the people by those Pastors that can not make better themselues T. C. Pag. 158. Tovvardes the ende And as for Master Bucers authoritie I haue shewed before how it ought to be weyghed and here also it is suspitious for that it is sayde that his aduise was that when the Lord should blesse the realme with mo learned preachers that then order should be taken to make more homilies which should be redde in y e church vnto the people As if M. Bucer did not know that there were then learned preachers enough in the realme which were able to make Homilies so many as the volume of thē might easily haue exceeded the volume of the Bible if the multitude of Homilies would haue done so much good And if the authoritie of Master Bucer beare so great a swaye with Master Doctor that vpon his credite onely without eyther Scripture or reason or examples of the Churches primitiue or those which are nowe he dare thrust into the churche Homilies then the authorities of the most auncient and best councels ought to haue bene considered which haue giuen charge that nothing should be redde in the church but onely the Canonicall Scriptures Io. Whitgifte They are M. Bucers woordes in déede neyther is there any cause why you should suspect them so to be And it is not his iudgemēt only but other learned mens Ridleys iudgement of homilies in the churche also and namely that famous man D. Ridlies Bishop of London in the treatise before rehearsed Wherein thus he speaketh of the Churche of Englande that was in King Edwards time It had also holy and wholesome Homilies in commendation of the M. Foxe to 2. Pag. 1940. principall vertues which are commended in Scripture and likewise other Homilies agaynst the most pernicious and capitall vices that vseth alas to reygne in this Church of England And truly these authorities if I had no other reason preuaile more with me than all that you or any of your parte had sayd or is able to say to the contrarie Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Lin. 4. For it was decreed in the councell of Laodicea that nothing should be redde in the churche but the Canonicall bookes of the olde and newe Testament and reckeneth vp what they be Afterwarde 59. Can. conc Laodi rom 1. concil as corruptions grewe in the church ▪ it was permitted that homilies might be redde by the Deacon when the minister was sicke and could not preach and it was also in an other Councell of Carthage permitted that the martyres lyues might be redde in the church but besides the euill successe that those decrecs had vnder preteuce whereof the Popish Legende and Gregories Concil vasense 1. to 4. tom cōcil 6. c concil Colon. parte 2. homilies c. creptin that vse and custome was controlled
by other councels as may appeare by the councell of Colen albeit otherwise Popishe And truly if there were nothing else but this consideration that the bringyng in of the readyng of Martyres liues into the churche and of the homilies of auncient wryters hath not onely by this meanes iustled with the Bible but also thrust it cleane out of the church or into a corner where it was not redde nor seene it ought to teache all men to beware of placing any wryting or worke of men in the church of God be they neuer so well learned as long as the world should endure Io. Whitgifte It is certayne that the decrée of the Councel of Laodicea can no more condemne the reading of Homilies in the Churche than it may the readyng of Prayers or Cathechismes or any other interpretation of the Scriptures The meaning of the Nothing ought to be read in the church vnder the name of Scriptures but the canonicall Councell is onely that nothing be redde in the Churche as Scripture or vnder the name of Scripture but that which is Canonicall And that doth euidently appeare in the. 47. Canon of the third Councell of Carthage which doth explane this Canon The woordes be these Item placuit vt praeter Scripturas Canonicas nihil in Ecclesia legatur sub nomine diuinarum scripturarum It is thought good that nothing be redde in the Church vnder the name of the scriptures of God but the Canonicall Scriptures It doth not therfore Con. Carth. 3. can 47. inhibite interpretations of the scripture and godly exhortations grounded vpon the same to be redde Concilium vasense as it is before declared appointeth Homilies Homilies appoynted to be redde to be redde when there is no Sermon by reason of some infirmitie or sickenesse in the minister which is a godly and profitable decrée neyther could it be the cause of any corruption I do not defend the reading of any thing in the Churche which is not grounded Nothing ought to be redde not grounded of the scriptures vpon the worde of God therefore the decrée of the Councell of Carthage or any such like doth nothing touch the cause that I defende and yet I know not in what sort or out of what storie these liues of Martyres were redde I like very well of the decrée of the councell of Colen for it inhibiteth the reading in the Churche of fabulous and barbarous stories of the liues of Sainctes whereby it is like that the booke called Legenda aurea is mente But what is this against godly Homilies that conteyne the true interpretation of the scriptures godly exhortation to good life sound proofes of true doctrine which is as far frō iustling the bible out of the church or into corners as is preaching And I muse that you can alleage this for a cause seing you thinke so slenderly of the reading of the Scriptures and will haue y e same giue place to your sermons Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Sect. 1. And if any man (*) You haue obiected that which you cannot answere obiect that by this meanes also is shut out of the church the forme of ordinarie Prayers to be sayde I saye the case is nothing lyke for when wee pray wee can not vse the wordes of the Scripture as they orderly lie in the text But for so much as the church prayeth for dyuers things necessarie for it the which are not conteined in one or two places of the scripture and that also there are some things which we haue need of wherof there is no expresse prayer in the scripture it is needfull that there be a forme of prayer drawne forthe out of the Scripture which the church may vse when it meeteth as the occasion of the tyme doth require which necessitie can not be by no meanes alleaged in the reading of Homelies or Apocrypha Whervpon appeareth that it is not so wel ordeyned in the church of Englande where both Homilies and Apocrypha are read especially when as diuers chapters of the books called Apocrypha are lifted vp so high that they are sometyme appoynted for extraordinarie lessons vpon feastes dayes wherein the greatest assemblies be made and some of the chapters of the canonicall Scripture as certain chapters of the Apocalyps quite lefte out and not redde at all Io. Whitgifte You haue made an obiection which you can not answere and against the which all these reasons that you haue before vsed do as much preuayle as they doe against reading of Homilies and whatsoeuer you can say for the one may likewise be said for the other For when we interprete the Scriptures when we teache or exhorte we can not vse onely the wordes of the scripture as they lye orderly in the texte but wee muste amplifye them displace them applie them to the matter we speake of entermingling them with our owne wordes and phrases For except you will graunt this to be lawfull as wel in exhorting and teaching as in publike preaching you must as I sayd before as well condemne Sermons as Homilies The Apocrypha that we reade in the Church haue bene so vsed of long tyme as Apocrypha redde in timèpaste in the churche it may appeare in that third councel of Carthage and 47. Canon where they be reckened among the Canonicall bookes of the Scripture They maye as well be read in the Church as counted portions of the olde and new Testament and forasmuch as there is nothing in them contrarie to the rest of the Scripture I sée no inconuenience but much commoditie that may come by the reading of them ¶ Of the name Priest giuen to the ministers of the gospell Chap. 3. The fyrst Diuision Admonition We speake not of the name of Prieste wherwith he defaceth the minister of Christe bicause the Priest that translated it would perhaps fame haue the minister of Christe to be ioyned wyth him seyng the office of priesthood is ended Christ being the last Priest that euer was To cai vs therfore Priests as touching our office is eyther to call backe againe the olde priesthoode of the law which is to denie Christ to be comen or else to keepe a memorie of the popishe priesthode of abhomination stil amongst vs. As for the fyrst it is by (d) Heb. 5. 1. 6. Heb. 9. 11. Chryst abolished and for the seconde it is of Antichrist and therfore we haue nothing to do with it Suche oughte to haue (e) Eze. 44. 10 Ierem. 23. Heb. 5. 4. no place in our Church neither are they ministers of Christ sente to preach his Gospell but Priests of the Pope to sacrifice for the quick and the dead that is to treade vnder their feet the bloud of Christ. Suche ought not to haue place amongst vs as the scriptures manifestly teache Besydes that we neuer reade in y e new Testament that this word Priest as touching office is vsed in y ◠good parte Answere to the
Admonition Pag. 183. Sect. 2. The name of Priest neede not to be so odious vnto you as you The name of priste would seeme to make it I suppose it cōmeth of this worde Presbyter not of Sacerdos and then the matter is not great T. C. Pag. 159. Sect. 2. Althoughe it will bee harde for you to proue that this woorde Prieste commeth of the Greeke woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet that is not the matter but the case standeth in thys that for so muche as the common and vsuall speach of England is to note by the word Priest not a minister of the Gospell but a sacrificer whiche the minister of the Gospell is not therefore we ought not to call the ministers of the Gospell priestes and that this is the english speach it appereth by all y e english translations which translate always 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which were sacrificers priestes and do not of the other side for any that euer I read translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a priest Seing therfore a priest with vs in our tong doth signifie both by y e Papists iudgemēt in respect of their abhommable Masse and also by the iudgement of the protestant in respecte of the beastes whyche were offered in the law a sacrificing office which the minister of the gospell neyther doth nor can execute it is manyfest that it can not be without great offence so vsed Io. Whitgifte I am not greatly delightedwith the name nor so desyrous to maynteyne it but yet a truth is to be defended I reade in the olde fathers that these two names Sacerdos and presbyter be confounded I see also that the learned and the best of oure English writers such I meane as write in these oure dayes translate this worde presbyter so and the verie worde it selfe as it is vsed in our english tongue soundeth the worde presbyter As heretofore vse hath made it to be taken for a sacrificer so wil vse nowe alter that signification and make it to be taken for a minister of the Gospell But it is méere vanitie to contende for the name when wée agrée of the thing the name may be vsed and not vsed without any great offence Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision Answere to the Admonition Pag. 183. Sect. 3. Pag. 184. Sect. 1. 2. The priest or priestes that translated this booke be not so skornfully to be taunted I thinke some of them haue ended their lyues in the fyre and all of them singular both in life religion learning speake not so contemptuously of so worthy men vtter not your hautie stomacks with so spitefull words towards your superiours betters least you proue your selues to be in the number of those of whom S. Paul speaketh 2. Tim. 3. vers 2. 3. 4. 5. and Iudas in his epistle vers 8. It is true that the priesthod of the old law is abolished but the place of scripture noted in your margent proueth it not For Hebrues 5. Paule doth shew why the high priest was ordeyned and what were his offices but he speaketh nothing of the abolishing of the priesthood I muse what you mean thus vnnecessarily to paint your margent and that with so little iudgement and lesse discretion The. 9. to the Hebrues is something to the purpose but needlesse Touching Popish priestes as you call them whether they ought to haue anye place in oure churche or no I haue spoken before where I haue also aunswered youre marginall notes concerning that matter You far ouershot your self in myne opinion when you set it down that you neuer read in the newe testament thys worde priest touching office to bee vsed in good parte What saye you to the fourth to the Hebrues verse 14. Seeing then that vve haue a greate highe Priest vvhyche is entred into heauen Iesus Chryst. c. And verse 6. For vvee haue not a highe Priest vvhyche can not be touched vvith the feelyng of our infirmities but. c. And chapter 5. verse 6. Thou arte a Prieste for euer c. And Apocalyps 5. 1. Pet. 2 ▪ But what shoulde I trouble you with a tedious the whole newe Testament where this worde Priest is taken in euill parte touching office Truly you are farre deceyued or else my Priest conce ning office neuer in euil part vnderstanding fayleth me I condemne that office and institution of sacrificing for the quick and the dead with you and I knowe it is condemned in the Scriptures manifestly and namely in the. 9. and. 10. to the Hebrues Io. Whitgifte Nothyng answered Matters concerning the solemnization of Mariage Chap. 4. The first Diuision Admonition The ninth As for matrimonie y t also hath corruptions too many it was wont to be counted a sacrament and therfore they vse yet a sacramentall signe to whiche they attribute the vertue of wedlock I meane the wedding ring which they fowlly abuse and dalli withal in takyng it vp laying it down In putting it on ▪ they abuse the name of the Trinitie they make y e newe maried man according to the Popish forme to make an idoll of his wyfe saying with this ryng I thee Abuses accidentall wed with my bodie I thee worship c. And bicause in poperie no holie action may be done without a Masse they enioyn the maried persons to receiue the communion as they do their Bishops and priests when they ar made c. Other pettie things out of the booke we speak not of as that women contrarie (m) 1. Cor. II. 5 to the rule of the Apostle come are suffered to come bareheaded with bagpipes and fidlers before them to disturbe the congregation and that they must come in at the great dore of the churche else all is marred Answere to the Admonition Pag. 194. Saect 1. The ring in matrimonie The fyrst thing you mislyke in matrimonie is the ryng whiche you call a sacramentall signe and vntruely saye that we attribute the vertue of wedlocke thervnto I knowe it is not materiall whether the ring be vsed or no for it is not of the substance of matrimonie neither yet a sacramentall signe no more than sitting at Communion is but only a Ceremonie of the which M. Bucer writing his iudgemēt vpon the first Bucers opinion of 〈◊〉 ring in mariage cōmunion booke set out in the tyme of king Edwarde sayth on this sort Subijcitur alius ritus vt ānulum c. There is an other rite and ceremonie vsed that the bridegrome should lay vpon the book the ring or any other signe or token of wedlock be it gold or siluer which he wil giue to his wife from thēce the minister takīg it doth deliuer it to the bridegrom he deliuereth the same to the bride with a prescript forme of words cōteined in the booke this ceremonie is verie profitable if the people be made to vnderstand what is therby signified as that the ring other things first layd vpon the book
had no suche prescript forme Be The replyer had rather conforme him selfe to the Iewes than o this church it so but will you driue vs to conforme our selues to the Iewes ceremonies do you thinke that touching the dead or being at burialls will now make the minister vncleane I vnderstand not to what end you should alleadge any such proofes vnlesse you would haue vs to retourne againe to Iudaisme This kind of reasoning from the ceremoniall law is not only of no force but also very dangerous as though Christians were bound to behaue themselues according to that law Surely it should séeme that you could rather consent to the bringing in of Iudaisme than to the Christian orders now appointed in the Church There might be and so there was a prescripte forme of burying the dead among the Iewes although the Priest was absent therfore if this kinde of reasoning from the examples of the Iewes were of any force yet cannot this your argument proue that there ought to be no prescripte forme to bury the dead In the fourth place you reason thus A new charge may not belayd vpon the minister nor The duetie of ministers not hindred by burying the dead he maye not be taken from his necessary duties of feeding and gouerning his flocke c. but by burying the dead a new charge is layd vpon him and he is taken from his necessary duties c. therefore the minister may not bury the dead Your Minor is false for it is no new charge laide vpon him is it not his duty to reade the scriptures to gyue thanks to pray and to exhort in the publike congregation doth he not féede when he so doth nay when is there a more apt time of féeding will you giue him time to be Pa. 49. Se. vlt absent from his flocke vpon his owne businesse as before you haue done and shal he haue no time to bury their dead Surely I cannot conceiue how this function of burying the dead should one iote hinder the minister f ō any one part of his dutie And I thinke these reasons of yours too weake to allure any man into your opinion or to plucke downe any thing that is already builded If you séeke for alteration you must vse pro ound and inuincible proofes for no wise man will be moued to a change without vrgent and especiall cause I passe ouer this and such like matters the more lightly bycause I take the lightnesse of your arguments to be such as of themselues they be a sufficient discredite to your cause and adde with such a be learned and not led by affection a greater strength and confirmation both to the doctrine and also to the gouernment of this Church of England Chap. 6. the. 4. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Page 199. Sect. 4. The threefolde peale mourning apparell buriall sermons the place of buriall which way they must lye how they must be fetched to the Church a crosse white or blacke set vpon the dead corps bread giuen to the poore offerings in buriall time vsed cakes sent abroade to friends you confesse not to be conteined within the booke and so you ease me of some laboure But yet of mourning apparell and auriall Of mourning pparell sermons giue me leaue to speake a little It is no good reason to say that bycause mourning apparell is only vsed of custome therefore it is superstitious and heathenishe many thinges be vsed of custome wh ch be neyther superstitious nor heathenish as to receiue the communion before dinner to celebrate the Lords day on the Sunday not on the Saterday to preach in pulpits and such like Mourning Mourning apparell auncient apparell is of greate antiquitie as you knowe and I thinke it is no matter of religion but of ciuilitie and order If any man put religion in it then no doubt it is superstitious T. C. Pag. 161. Sect. 2. For the mourning apparell the Admonition (*) Vntruth 〈◊〉 their word be playne sayth not simply it is euill bycause it is done of custome but proueth that it is hypocriticall oftentimes for that it proceedeth not from any sadnesse of mind whiche it dothe pretende but worne only of ustome there being vnder a mourning gowne oftentimes a merry hart And considering that where there is sorrow indeede for the dead there it is very hard for a man to keepe a measure that he do not lament too much we ought not to vse these meanes whereby we might be further prouoked to sorrow and so go a great way beyond the measure which the Apostle appointeth in mourning no more than it was well done of the Iewes in the Gospell to prouoke weeping and sorrow for their dead by some dolefull noyse or 1. Thes. 4. Math. 9. Iohn 11. sound of instrument or then it was lawfull for Mary Lazarus sister to go to hir brothers graue thereby to set the pri t of hir sorrow deeper in hir mind Seing therefore if there be no sorrow it is hypocriticall to pretend it and i there be ▪ it is very dangerous to prouoke it or to carry the notes of remembrance of it it appeareth that this vse of mourning apparell were much better layd away than kept And here M. Doctor th eapes alittle kindnesse of the authours of the Admonition and Cyp. 4. sermone de mortalitate Augus li. 2. de consolat mortuorum saith that they know it is very anncient whome before he denyeth to haue any knowledge of antiquitie Indeede it is very auncient but M. Doctor is afrayd to shew the a ciencie of it for Cyprian and Augustine inueigh vnhemently against it condemning it as vnlawfull and vndecent Io. Whitgifte The words of the Admonitiō be these Nor of their strange mourning by changing their garments which if it be not hypocriticall yet is it superstitious and heathenish bycause it is vsed only of custome Let the Reader now iudge whether the Admonition dothe conclude this apparell to be heathenish and superstitious only bycause it is vsed of custome or no. Truly in my simple iudgement their words be playner than that they can be excused Your reason of Hypocrisie is no more sufficient to condemne mourning apparell than it is to condemne any other ciuill and decent o der By the like reason I might improue your wearing of a turky gowne and a hat bycause that kind of apparel being a token of such persons as mislike the gowne and the square cap and pretende precisenesse aboue the rest is notwithstanding commonly worne of such as in other places than in London both weare and like the other and be precise neither in lyfe nor doctrine And what is it that I annot disproue if this be a sufficient argument to say some mē do abuse it or some men do hypocritically vse it Ergo it is not to be vsed Your other reason that it prouoketh more seruice for the dead than is conuenient if it were true that it so did
ought to cōfort with the woorde of God the parties that be greeued at y e death of their friendes therefore he may not preache a funerall sermon I must stil deny your argument being to too simple For may he not do both if nede require may he not before his sermon in his sermon after his sermon Funerall sermons serue to comfor e those that are greeued comforte the parties greeued That is one good vse of funerall sermōs especially when ther are a number so gréeued whom he can not so well particularly cōforte bicause of the number as he may ioyntly in a godlye fruitfull sermon and I haue not heard or red but that God worketh as effectually in the heartes of the hearers by publike sermons as he doth by priuate exhortations that euen in matters of saluation therfore much more in matters of lesser importance But as I saide before this preaching at the buriall doth nothing hinder this priuate exhortation if he be so disposed and therfore of all other your argumentes this is one of the worste Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 162. Sect. 2. And where as M. Doctor asketh when there is a better time to speake of death and of mortalitie than at urial surely if it had bene so sit the Prophets and Apostles would neuer haue lost that oportunitie or let passe that occasion of aduauncing and making effectuall their preaching What if it be answered (*) It were very ondly answere ▪ that for as much as our life is a continuall meditation of death it is not sal e to vse this custome or that it tieth our cogitation to so shorte a tyme as the tune of buriall is whiche ought to be extended to the whole course of our life But I answere that it may be well done without any such funerall sermons when the minister taketh occasion of the death of any which is lately departed to speake of the vanitie of the life of man Io. Whitgifte The Prophets and Apostles did not preache at burials therefore it is not a moste conuenient time to speake of death and of mortalitie The antecedent is doubtful and not proued and though it were true the argument followeth not for it is your vsuall kinde of reasoning negatiuely of authoritie But why haue you not made here any mention of the other thinges conteined in my Answere to the Admonition whiche bée necessary pointes to be entreated of and most fit for that tune as purgatory rentals c Againe you reason thus our life is a continuall meditation of death and by funerall sermons An absurd argum t against funerall sermons it is tied vnto a short tyme as the tune of buriall is therefore funerall sermons be not lawefull the putting of vs in minde of our mortalitie by funerall sermens is no hindraunce to our continuall meditation of it but an helpe rather and a meanes to stirre it vp to reuiue it We ought at all times to meditate of the death of Christ but must we therfore refuse at some times to receiue the sacrament of the supper whereby we are put in minde therof or doth the receiuing of this sacrament once in a monthe restraine our meditation of Christs death to that time only doth a sermon preached of the death of Christ at some times appointed binde our cogitation to that time onlye surely then are we very vnprofitable hearers Wherfore although our life be a con inuall meditation of death yet can it not be but most profitable for vs to be put in mynde therof at some one time more than at other some tyme especially at that time when we sée with our eyes that which we heare with our eares And what can this reason more preuayle against sermons at burials than it may doe against sermons at the administration of the Sacramentes or any other appointed or sette tyme The like or the same kynde of argument you vsed before against the feast of Easter 〈◊〉 120. 〈◊〉 2 and other such like dayes where I haue in like manner answered the same I thinke verily that by this time you are ashamed of it At the length you saye that it may be well done without any suche funerall sermons c. and therefore there may be no funerall sermons And I saye it may as well and better be done in and by funerall sermons and therefore funerall sermons may be c. Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 162. tovvards the ende Whether M. Doctor liketh the reformation or no so it is in the church where M. Calu ne w astor and ha be e for these many yeares And although the Englyshe churche in Geneua had that in the booke of common prayer yet as I haue heard of those which were there present it was no so vsed And if it had bene yet thereby it is not proued that M. Caluine allowed of it For with things wherein there was no great and manifest disorder M. Caluine did beare that whiche hee liked t of And there being no Papistes in all the citie and all beyng well instructed there was no such unger in a funerall sermon there as is here amongst vs where there be many Papistes and mo ignorant I w ll saye nothing of the great abuse of those whiche hauing otherwyse to lyue on of the churche take nobles for euery such sermon and sometyme a mournyng gowne which causeth th 〈◊〉 to open their mouthes wyde and to say that the marchandise of sermons is much beare than of the 〈◊〉 for that they might haue for a groa e or sixe pence and the sermon they can not haue vnder a rou der summe Io. Whitgifte I haue tolde you before howe much M. Cal ine him selfe misliketh this ambitious Tract 9. cap. Diui. 13. morositie which woulde driue all churches to the example of one It firste brought Rome to that extreame pryde arrogācie wherewith it is now so greatly puffed vp I must beleue that booke that is printed published and vncontrolled before I beleue your vncertaine reportes although in such matters I do not depende vpon the churche of Geneua whiche will not I am sure condemne our vse in these sermons though it vse them not it selfe I heare as yet no probable reason why funeral sermons should not be where ther Funer ll sermons do most good where there are most Papists are Papistes and suche as be ignorante I am fully perswaded that they be in those places moste necessary where there are moste Papistes bicause they minister especiall occasion to confute these errors wherein the Papistes be moste blynded from the which they are with most difficultie drawen But we must permit vnto you your paradoxes and your fansies else all is marred You saye you wyll not speake of the abuse of those that take nobles for such Sermons hauing otherwyse to lyue neyther will I defende them if they either exacte it or require it or take it
godly and true saying that Christe hathe sanctified all waters vsed in Baptysyng to the mysticall washyng awaye of synne not ascrybing or attributyng washyng awaye of synne to the externall elemente anye otherwyse than instrumentallye or in anye other respecte than for the similitude that Sacramentes haue with the thynges whereof they bee Sacramentes for wee knowe that wycked men maye receyue these externall signes and yet remaine the members of Sathan It is certainly true that the mysticall washing away of sinne is proper to the worke God in the bloud of Christ and for that purpose you might haue alledged much more playner and directer places of Scripture than moste of these whiche you haue noted in your margent but I thinke your meaning is not therefore to condemne the outwarde signes and Sacraments as the heretikes called Messalians did Admonition They pray that all men may be saued Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 202. Sect. 3. You say we pray that all men may be saued we do so indeede and what can Prayer that all men may be saued 〈◊〉 good you alledge why we should not so do S. Paule 1. Tim. 2. sayth I exhort therefore that first of all supplications prayers intercessions and giuing of thankes be made for all men c. And adding the reason he sayth For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Sauiour vvho vvill that all men shall be saued and come vnto the knovvledge of the truth The Apostle doth here will vs in plaine words to pray for all men euen that they may be saued for there vnto tende the wordes following Io. Whitgifte To this is nothing answered Chap. 7. the. 2. Diuision Admonition The thirtéenth In all their order of Seruice p 1. Co. 14. 16 there is no edification according to the rule of the Apostle but confusion They tosse the Psalmes in most places like tennese balles the people some standing some walking some talking some reading some praying by themselues attend not to the Minister He againe posteth it ouer as fast as he can gallop for eyther he hath two places to serue or else there are some (*) Games of Sodome games to be played in the after noone as lying for the whetstone heathnish dauncing for the ring a Beare or a Bull to be bayted or else Iacke an apes to ride on horsebacke or an Enterlude to be played and if no place else can bee gotten it must be done in the Church c. Now the people sit now they stande vp when the olde Testament is read or the lessons they make no reuerence but when the Gospell commeth then they (*) Standing at the Gospell came from Anastatius the Pope in An. 404. all stande vp For why they thinke that to be of greatest authoritie and are ignorant that the Scriptures came from one spirite When Iesus is named then off goeth the cap and downe goeth the knees with suche a scraping on the grounde that they cannot heare a good while after so that the worde is hindered but when any other names of God are mētioned they make no curtesie at all as though the names of God were not equall or as though all reuerence ought to be giuen to the sillables We speake not of ringing when Mattens is done and (*) Accidentall abuses other abuses incident bicause we shall be answered that by the booke they are not mainteyned onely we desire to haue a booke to reforme it Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 204. Sect. 1. 205. Sect. 1. 2. This is a slaunderous vntruth And the. 1. Cor. 14. abused to A slaunder of the Communion booke confirme it Whatsoeuer S. Paule requireth in that place is vsed in that booke of Seruice for first the whole Seruice is in a tongue knowne as S. Paule there requyreth that the people may vnderstand say Amen Then are the Scriptures read ▪ the Sacraments ministered according to Christes owne institution those that bee Godly disposed persons know what a manifest vntruth this is that you here vtter But mad men women and children must haue their wordes c. If by tossing of Psalmes you meane the singing of them alternatìm then do you disallow that which is both commendable and of great antiquitie as it appeareth in an Epistle that Basilius Magnus did wryte to the Ministers in Neocaesaria where he sheweth the selfe same order of singing Psalmes to be then vsed in the Church that we vse at this day If by tossing of Psalmes like tennise balles you meane the ouer hastie reading or singing of them it is indeede to be misliked but it is no part of the booke and therefore no cause why you shoulde absteyne from subscribing to it T. C Pag. 163. Sect. 1. To passe by the prophane prouerbe here vsed which matcheth mad men and women and childr togither ▪ most vnseemely for a D. of diuinit especially handling diuine matters for the singing of Psalmes by course and side after side although it be very auncient yet it is not commendable and so much the more to be suspected for that the diuell hath gone about to get it so great authoritie partly by deriuing it from Ignatius tyme and partly in making the worlde beleeue that this ocrat 6 ▪ 8. cap. Platin. cap. Damas. Theod. 2. lib. 24. cap. came from heauen and that the Angels were heard to ng after this sort which as it is a mere fable so is it confuted by Hystoriographers whereof some ascribe the beginning of this to Damasus some other vnto Flauianus and Dioo rus From whence soeuer it came it cannot be good (*) This is slat con r. ie to that you affirme pag. 109. Sect. considering that when it is graunted that all the people may prayse God as it is in singing of Psalmes there this ought not to be restrayned vnto a fewe and where it is lawfull both with heart and 〈◊〉 to sing the whole Psalme there i is not inecte that they should sing but the one half with their heart and voyce and the other with their heart onely For where they may both with heart and voyce sing there the heart is not enough Therefore besides that incommoditie whiche cōmeth this way in that being tossed after this sort mē cannot vnderstand what is song these other two incōuemences come of this forme of singing therfore is banished in all reformed churches Io. Whitgifte To the slaunderous vntruth of the Admonition or to my answere there vnto you say nothing but passe it ouer S. Paule vsed a prophane prouerbe in very serious and diuine matters when he sayde Cretenses semper mendaces c. ad Ti. 1. and therefore it well beséemeth a Doctor of Tit. 1. itie aptly and fitly applying it But why doe you not find fault with the Authors of the Admonition who vse a more prophane prouerbe that is tossing of tennise balles in as serious a matter You confesse that singing of Psalmes by course and
deede to be iudged not to iudge he came to worke the worke of our redemption not to decide controuersies touching landes and possessions But will you therfore take from Christian men authoritie to iudge for this exāple of Christ can no more be applied to Bishops than it may be to kings bicause the doings of Christ is a patterne for all Christians and yet Christians may iudge matters and decide controuersies amongst their brethren Looke 1. Cor. 6. The Anabaptists vse this text for one Argument of the Anabaptistes confuted of their reasons to condemne magistratie among Christians therfore a very learned and late writer in his exposition of this place writeth thus Hinc colligitur quantopere insaniant qui ex hoc loco magistratum inter Christianos damnant nam Christus non argumentatur à re ipsa tanquà m profana sit sed à vocatione sua quòd missus sit in alium finem tametsi res erat per se satis sancta pia Hereof may it be gathered hovv greatly they dote vvhich condemne magistrates amongst Christians by this place for Christe doth not reason of the thing it selfe as though it vvere profane but of his ovvne vocation bicause he vvas sent to an other ende although the thing of it selfe is holy and good T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 4. vlt. And as for the other place of Luke touching our sauiour Christes refusall to deuide the inheritaunce 12. Luke betwene the brethren it is moste aptly alleaged to this purpose For although our sauiour Christ doth not there take away from men authoritie to iudge yet he sheweth thereby sufficiently that it belongeth not vnto the ministers of the worde to entermeddle in y e iudgement of ciuil causes For our sauiour Christ framed that answere hauing respect to the boundes of his calling For as he beyng minister of the Gospell did all those things which were perteyning to his ministerie so by refusing this office of iudgement in ciuill causes he gaue to vnderstand that it did not appertayne vnto the compasse of that office which he exercised which was y e ministerie And therefore it is altogether out of season that M. Doctor here alleageth that y e Anabaptistes vse this reason to proue that Christians may not haue magistrates For howe doth this follow that bycause this place of S. Luke proueth not that we ought to haue no Christian magistrates that therfore it proueth not that the minister should be no magistrate as if there could be no ciuill magistrates onlesse ministers of the worde were And the place which he alleageth out of the learned man doth not only not make any thing for him but doth quite ouerthrow his cause For he sayth that our sauiour Christ did not refuse this as a thing in it selfe vnlawfull but bycause it did not agree with his vocation Now the vocation of our sauiour Christ was to be a minister of the Gospell therefore it doth not agree with the vocation of a minister of the gospell to iudge or to intermedle in ciuill gouernment And if M. Doctor had bene so studious of M. Caluins workes as by his often 4. Lib. Inscit 11. cap. allegation of him he would make the world beleue he might haue redde in him this sentence cited for this purpose to proue that the ministers haue not to do in ciuill thinges Io. Whitgifte Neyther do you héere replie to my Answere for I tolde you that Christ came to be iudged not to iudge in matters of lands and possessions I tolde you likewise that this example of Christ perteyneth no more to Bishops than it dothe to Kings and therefore can no fitlyer be by you applied agaynst Bishops than by the Anabaptistes agaynst Christian Magistrates To all this in effect you haue sayde nothing Your owne collection is soone answered Fyrst no man giueth to Bishops authoritie to iudge in matters of inheritance for suche controuersies are to be decided by lawe whiche hath other Iudges appoynted for it Secondly Christ spake this to declare that his kingdome was not of this worlde but of the worlde to come not earthly but heauenly not temporall but eternall and therefore he spake it touching his owne person onely and not as a rule perteyning to other Christians as the Anabaptists feyne Thirdly the authoritie in ciuill matters that is committed to ministers in Ciuill offices in our ministers tende to y e gouernment of the church this Churche is committed vnto them by the Prince for the better gouernment of the Churche and the fuller satisfying of their duetie consisting for the moste parte onely in punishing and correcting sinne And lastly it is not made a thing incident to the ministerie or as parte of that office but it is added as profitable conuenient and necessarie for the present state of the Churche and fuller accomplishing of the ministers duetie I haue tolde you in my Answere to the Admonition that this example of Christ dothe no more perteyne vnto Bishops than to other Christians whiche béeing true and vnconfuted by you then dothe it followe that the Anabaptistes maye aswell alleage it agaynst other Christians as you maye doe agaynst Bishops or Ministers The learned mans interpretation dothe well agrée with my cause for Christ refused it bicause he came to be iudged and to suffer death for the redemption of the world which is the vocation that this learned man speaketh of and is onely proper to Christ. I denie not but that M. Caluine may apply this texte to that purpose but M. Caluine dothe expounde him selfe writing vpon this same place when he saythe that euery man must respect his owne vocation quid illi sit aptum and what is meete for it Nowe the ciuill authoritie that Ecclesiasticall persons haue in this Churche is meete for theer vocation And therefore M. Caluine speaketh nothing agaynst it In the same booke chapter he alleageth these words of Bernarde ▪ whiche he writeth to Pope Eugenius of this matter Ergo in criminibus non in possessionibus potestas vestra c. VVherefore your power is in offences not in possessions And this conclusion he bringeth in vpon the wordes of S. Luke chapter 12. I would not as I sayde before haue Bishops Iudges in controuersies of enheritance Wherein the Bishops authoritie consisteth I doe not affirme that they may in the right of their ministerie chalenge any ciuill authoritie as the Bishop of Rome dothe But forasmuche as the authoritie is in Criminibus in offences as Bernarde sayth therfore if it please the Prince to giue it them they may lawfully execute so muche authoritie ciuill as shall further and helpe them in suppressing sinne And this is agaynst nothing that M. Caluine hathe sayde For M. Caluine and other learned wryters of this age doe vse this place of S. Luke and suche like agaynst the vsurpation of Romishe Bishops chalenging suche authoritie in ciuill matters as due vnto them Iure diuino and so
Collections made in vaine and framed according to your owne pleasure not so my meaning If you haue done it of ignorance you are to be excused if of set purpose you are to be blamed And wheras you say that M. Doctor must vnderstand that this was ecclesiastical powers Peters punishing of Ananias was by ciuill iurisdiction ▪ Beza de Haeret à Magist. puniendis I say on the other side that you must vnderstand that this was not ecclesiasticall but méere ciuill which you might haue learned of M. Beza in diuers places of his booke de Haereticis à Magistratu pun For thus he writeth Cedò igitur Christus quo iure flagellum his corripuit quo iure Petrus Ananiam Sapbiram occidit quo iure Paulus Elymam excaecauit ▪ Num ecclesiastici ministerij minimè profectò nisi iurisdictiones confundas Ergo ciuilis Magistratus iure Nihil enim est tertium Tell me therefore by what lawe did Christ take the whip in hand twise by what law did Peter kill Ananias and Saphira by what right did Paule strike Elymas with blindnesse did they those things by the right of the ecclesiasticall ministerie no truly except you will confound iurisdictions They did it therefore by the right of ciuill magistracie for ther is no meane And to the same purpose doth he speake sundry times in that booke What outcries I haue vsed or declamations which you haue not in ample manner requited adding to the same al opprobrious kind of speaches and iesting taunts that you could deuise let the indifferent Reader iudge wherfore I hartely wish vnto you both better knowledge and better conscience Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 171. Sect. 1. Unto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that Pope Eugensus brought in prisons into the Church as also vnto the three or fower such like demands ▪ which he maketh in this booke the authours of the Admonition answer at once that this and the other are found in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Io. Whitgifte What authors doe they alleadge for them for bothe these be but very late writers and this is a matter of historie and therfore requireth some greate antiquitie nerer vnto the tyme of Eugenius who liued Anno. 650. but you knowe verie well that our Bishops claim not this authoritie by any constitution or canon of the Pope neither doe they exercise it in their owne name but they haue it from the Prince and in hir name and by hir authoritie do they vse it Chap. 3. the. 14. Diuision Bishop of Sarum Both these gouernments vvere confounded in Moses Therfore they may be confounded and the Priestes of Israell had the iudgement and gouernment Ecclesiastical and ciuill iurisdiction confounded in Moses of the people and S. Augustine was troubled with hearing and determining of causes as it appeareth by Possidonius And where you say to be a chief or a ruler is a ciuill gouernment nay in ecclesiasticall causes it is ecclesiasticall gouernment and not ciuill And these differences of gouernment Augustine heareth ciuill causes may not so vnaduisedly be confounded This is the key of ecclesiasticall correction and belongerh onely to the ecclesiasticall officer and to none other Hereof Saincte Paule sayth Seniorem ne corripueris nisi sub c. Tradidi illum Satanae This iurisdiction is not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and therfore may be exercised by an ecclesiasticall person T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 1. 2. Here I wyll take in that whiche the Bishop of Sarisburye hath in the last page of his half sheete touching this matter And fyrst of all I well agree that he sayth that to giue vnto Sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an ecclesiasticall person by reprehension or putting him out of the ministerie if the cause so require is mere ecclesiastical and not ciuill and that those things ought to be done of the officers of the Churche This onely I denye that the ministers ought to medle with ciuill offices For proofe whereof the Bishop alleageth the example of Augustine whiche as Possidonius writeth was troubled with the hearing determining of causes Wherin Possidonius sayth nothing but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister with the elders ought both to heare and determine of causes but of such causes as perteyne vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidomus ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustine as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that which he writeth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certain in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accounted of this as of compulsien and resiraynte from his better busynesses Wherby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not with those worldly affaires further than by way of giuing counsell which is not vnlawfull for a minister to doe as one friende vnto another so that his ministerie be not therby hindered Io. Whitgifte What S. Augustine did in such matters and whether he weroccupied in worldly Augustine iudge in worldely matters matters or no and that he was not a counsell giuer only but also a iudge it shall best appeare by his owne wordes spoken of himselfe whiche are so playne and euident that after you haue hearde them you will be ashamed of this answere to Possidonius and of your former assertion also Augustine therefore in his booke de opere Aug. lib. de opere Monac Monachorum of this matter writeth thus VVho feedeth a flock and doth not receiue of the milke of the flocke And yet I call to witnesse vpon my soule the Lorde Iesus in whose name I doe boldely speake these thinges that touchyng myne owne commoditie I hadde rather euerye daye as it is appoynted in well ordered Monasteries to woorke some thyng wyth my handes and to haue the other houres free to reade and to praye or too dooe somme thynge in the Holye Scriptures than too suffer the tumultuous perplexities of other mennes causes touchyng secular businesse eyther in determinyng them by iudging or in cutting them off by intreatyng to the whyche troubles Augustine thinketh that the how ghost hath bounde Bishops to ciuill causes the Apostle hathe bounde vs not by his owne iudgement but by the iudgement of hym whyche didde speake in him and yet hee himselfe did not suffer these troubles for the discourse of his Apostleship was otherwyse Here in playne woordes hée declareth that it was secular busynesse aboute the whyche he was occupyed and although he séeme to complayne of the multitude of suche businesse yet dothe hee acknowledge the same to bee lawfull iuste and conueniente and therefore he addeth and sayeth VVhyche laboure notwythstandyng wee suffer not without the consolation of the Lorde for the hope of eternall lyfe that wee maye bryng foorthe frute wyth pacience for wee are seruauntes of that Churche and especially to the weaker members what members soeuer wee are in the same bodie And
Emperour in ciuill businesse Theodosius the Emperour made a lawe wherein it was decréed that all ciuil stryfes and controuersies shoulde be referred to the iudgemente of the churche if either Dorotheus Duaren lib. 1. of the parties did desire it And the same lawe did Carolus Magnus afterwards renew and confirme and yet doe you saye that the practise of the churche dothe confirme that Bishops may not meddle with ciuill offices If you flée to reason is it not good reason that a Bishop shoulde haue that office Some ciuill iurisdiction giuen to Bishops is agreable to reason and that authoritie that maye helpe hym in dooing his duelie in correctyng vice in procuryng peace in maynteyning good order in cuttyng off sectes schismes and suche lyke in accomplyshing all whiche be that séeth not howe muche he is helped by suche ciuill authoritie as the Prince committeth vnto hym is eyther voyde of reason or wilfully blynded Wherfore I may moste iustly conclude that for so muche as the holye Scriptures The conclusion of this matter doe teache that Ecclesiasticall persons maye meddle with ciuill effices the practyso of the Churche confirmeth the same and reason telleth that it is conuenient and seeing that suche as practise them both in the maner and forme before declared breake not foorth into any other mannes callyng busy not themselues in things whiche belong not vnto them but walke in their callyng occupie themselues in matters incidents vnto it and do good seruice both to God their Prince and their countrey these offices may very aptely concurre and meete together in one person and be profitably linked and ioyned together in one man This did Augustine confesse and acknowledgeth that the Apostle hath bounde them to these troubles not by his owne iudgement but by Bishops bounde by the holie ghost to ciuill troubles iudgement of him that did speake in him as I haue before declared This haue the godlie Bishops Cranmer Ridley Hooper c. consented vnto this doo the graue wise and learned Bishops in our tyme in this Churche by experience knowe Admonition The eightenth And birds of the same fether are couetous patrones of benefices persons vicars readers parish priests stipēdaries riding chaplains y t vnder the authoritie of their masters spoile their flocks of y e food of their soules (a) Phi. 21. 2. such seeke not the Lord Iesus but their own bellies (b) Iud. 12. cloudes that are without rayne trees without fruite (c) Mat. 23. 27. painted sepulchers full of dead bones fatted in all aboundance of iniquitie and leane locustes in all feeling knowledge and synceritie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 226. Sect. vlt. 227. Sect. 1. It is true that couetous Patrones of benefices be a great plague Couetous patrones to this Church and one of the principal causes of rude and ignorant ministers God graunt some speedie reformation in that poynt Neyther can I excuse all persons vicars c. but all this is spoken without the booke and therefore not fitlye of you alleadged agaynst the booke T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 4. Unto the two sections I haue spoken in that which hath bene sayde touching excommunication canons and Prebendaries c. And vnto that whyche is conteyned in the. 226. and. 227. I answere that I can not excuse couetous patrones of benefices but couetous parsones and vicars be a greate pi gue vnto this Churche and one of the principall causes of rude and ignorant people Io. Whitgifte I confesse that the couetousnesse of some of them one waye and the contentiousnesse of some of you an other way hath done muche harme in the Church brought no small hinderance to the Gospell I pray God open the heartes of all that euery man may espye his owne deformitie and be therof ashamed T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. vlt. Lykewise vnto the two next sections I haue answered before in speaking against the spirituall courtes which are now vsed vnto the next after that in speakyng of the ordeyning of ministers Io. Whitgifte You haue not answered to this conteined page 233. I vvill neitheriustifie that vvhich is amisse nor condemne that vvhich I knovve not Only this I say that this taunting spirit of yours seketh rather defamation than reformation vttereth spitefulnesse of stomacke rather than godlie zeale for what a deriding of authoritie disdayn towards the same is this three of them would be enough to sting a man to death for why they are high commissioners VVhat example haue you of any godly man that vsed thus to deride and floute magistrates you say all this springeth out of that Pontificall whiche you must allow by subscription c. But it had bin well if you had tolde vs out of what part of that Pontificall they spring and how they be thereof gathered This you passe ouer in silence Admonition And thus much be spoken as touching this booke against which to stand is a wonder to two 2. Tim. 2. 7. 2. Cor. 4. 4. forts of men the one ignorant the other obstinate The Lord giue those that be his vnderstanding in all things that they may haue iudgement as for the other whome the God of this world hathe blinded least they (f) Math. 13. 15. should see and confesse the truth and so be saued and that do in the full growth of wickednesse maliciously resist the truth God confound them that his peace may be vpon Israell and his sauing health vpon this nation Ansvver to the Admonition Page 234. Sect. vlt. Nay surely it is a wonder to wise learned and godly men to see this booke so painefully penned with such aduise perused and by so long practise allowed now to be defaced as it were with friuolous Foure sortes of aduersaries to the Church vnlearned and vnapt reasons and that by fower sorts of men Atheists Papists and Anabaptists and as you woulde be counted Puritanes God of his infinite mercie giue you charitable quiet thankfull minds and eyther conuert your harts or roote al such disturbers out of this Church that we may with one hart and mind serue our Lord God T. C. Pag. 171. Lin. vlt. And vnto that which is conteyned in the latter end of the. 234. and the beginning of the. 235. I say that the Church shall iudge of the aptnesse or vnaptnesse of our reasons albeit we do fynde fault with diuers things in the booke yet we neither oppugne as enemies nor are by the grace of God eyther Papists Anabaptists Atheists or Puritanes as it pleaseth M. Doctor to call vs. And to the prayer against disturbers of the Church I say with all my heart Amen Io. Whitgifte I would to God you did not oppugne it as enimies c. Surely then would not your fiercenesse nor your bitternes of speach haue bin such as it is But God forgiue you and to the prayer I say agayne Amen Amen Admonition If this be not playne inough by that which is already set
must also be referred to the Reader who may coniecture that you haue litle to say against any thing that I haue in this parte affirmed Out of the second treatise called A view of Popishe abuses remayning Fol. 10. pag. 1 lin 33. Reading of seruice or Homilies in the church is as euil as playing on a stage and worse too You say that this is falsified Lord God what meane you In the seconde leafe of that booke these be their direct wordes Reading is not feeding but it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse too To the same effect they speake diuers times so do the Authors of the second Admonition Surely eyther they are ashamed of their doings or else you haue not with diligence read their bookes Thus briefly to haue answered to your vniust accusation of falsly collecting certain articles out of the booke entituled An Admonition c. shall be sufficient Other articles which you say be gathered out of the same booke and confesse to be true I haue omitted bicause they be sufficiently answered by me in the confutation and your confirmation of them is vsuall and childishe I woulde wishe that suche as bee wyse men and in authoritie would diligently consider that whiche you answere to the Article Fol 14. as you quote it touching the gouernment of the Churche and the authoritie of Princes and their lawes and likewyse that whiche is written concerning the same matters in the seconde Admonition I will make them neyther better nor worse but wishe the Magistrates well to marke your iudgements and opinions in these matters and to foresee the worst The Lorde blesse this Realme of Englande with the continuance of his Gospell long life of the Queenes maiestie and peace bothe foreyne and domesticall Amen Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered ¶ A viewe of the seconde Admonition T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. vlt. In the viewe of the second admonition M. Doctor doth as it seemeth of purpose cul out those things which he hath spoken on before and in repeating of them referreth his Reader vnto hys booke Diuers other matters there are of great weight which he speaketh not of if he doe approue them (*) Why haue you not done so your selfe 〈◊〉 your Replie ▪ it had beene well he had sign fyed his liking if he doe not that he had confuted them And if he trauelled so heauily of bringing foorth of this booke that it was as heauy a burden vnto hym as Salomon sayth a fond worde is vnto an vnwyse man he might haue taken day to answere it Now by this slēder answering or rather not answering at al but only asking how this that is proued wheras beeing proued it is vnreproued of him he doth his cause more harme than he is aware of For vnlesse his profes he ioyned with his expulsions imprisonmēts with all that racket which he maketh in Cambridge to the vtter most of that his authoritie will stretch vnto he may be well assured that their driuing out wyll drawe in the truthe and their imprisonment wyll set the truthe at greater libertie and thereby proue it self to be neyther Papistrie nor Anabaptistrie Donatistrie Catharisme nor any other heresie whych are by due correction repressed But as for the truthe of God the more it is laden the strayghter it standeth and the more it is kepte vnder the more it euforceth it selfe to ryse and wyll vndoubtedly get vp howe great so euer the stone be whyche is layde vpon it Io. Whitgifte I haue omitted no matter of substance vnanswered in eyther of the Admonitions The wordes you héere vtter be contumelious you onely rayle you answere not I neuer expelled any of degrée since my first comming to Trinitie Colledge but two the one for pertinacie the other for periurie And yet I might haue done lawfully and iustly and intende to doe if the statutes wherevnto I haue sworne doe therevnto enforce me But by your often obiecting this vnto me men may vnderstande what conscience it is that makes you so zealous and what diuinitie it is that you so carnestly professe scil a minde full of reuengment and a face puffed vp with arrogancie and vayneglory A briefe viewe of the seconde Admonition I haue also receyued a seconde Admonition to the Parliament the author whereof vndertaketh to teache howe to reforme those things whiche the other Admonition founde faulte with I shall not neede to make any long discourse of it neyther will I. The answere to the fyrst admonition is an answere to this also Onely I thought it good to note vnto you that this booke consisteth of these poynts especially first it iustifieth the authors of the first Admonition and seemeth to complayne that they haue not iustice bicause they appealyng to the highest Court of Parliament their appeale would not be receyued And therefore they say the Scripture is playne that it shall be easier for Sodome and Gomorra in the daye of iudgement ▪ than for suche a court meaning the court of Parliament and they quote for that purpose in the margent the. 10. of Matth verse 14. 15. which is a shamefull prophanation of the Scripture and an egregious slaunder to that honorable courte The iustnesse of the appeale I leaue to the Iustices and skilfull Lawyers to be considered of for it is not within the compasse of my facultie Onely I thinke that that scroule can haue no defense of Parliament first bicause it is a Libell secondly bicause it was published in printe before the Parliament was made priuie vnto it Io. Whitgifte Not one worde sayde agaynst this ¶ A viewe of the seconde Admonition In this parte these wordes of theirs would be well considered Politike Ma cheuils there is no other thing to be looked for than some speedie vengeance to lighte vpon the whole lande prouide as well as the politike Macheuils of Englande thinke they can though God doe his worste It woulde be knowne whome they meane by these politike Macheuils for they enuy all men of great authoritie witte and pollicie T. C. Pag. 176. Sect. 1. 2. And albeit he had no leysure to answere the matters whiche required his answere yet he carpeth at by matters and asketh who are ment by the politike Macheuils What if they meane (*) This is a clake but their words will not heare it M. Doctor and such other which vnder the pretence of policie would ouerthrowe the Churche and that by those things whych haue scarse a shew of policie and in deede ouerturne the policie and gouernment of the Lorde And I pray you tell me M. Doctor who be those superiours which contemne hate discourage and frumpe those whiche execute the lawes of the Realme of the whiche you speake in the. 88. page And where you adde by and by that they enuye all men of great authoritie witte and pollicie I haue answered this speeche before And truely I thinke there is not in Mesheke so slaunderous a tongue to be founde as this
is nor the Iuniper cotesare not comparable with it Io. Whitgifte Nay they can not meane it of me nor of suche as I am for I haue not to doe with the politike affayres of this lande neyther am I eyther of Court or Parliament But I thinke their words following doe clearely seclude me and all other of my degrée for thus they adde immediatly But shutte God out of your assemblies and 〈◊〉 as hitherto in this last Parliament you haue done nothing therin as you ought no though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 beene solicited but haue suffered them that were your solicitours to be molested You shall 〈◊〉 both that you ought to haue sought the kingdome of God first and also you shall finde if 〈◊〉 consider not your owne wayes in your hearts howe you thinke it a tyme to buylde seeled houses to deuise lawes for the preseruation and prosperitie of your common wealth and neglect Gods Churche leaue that wast c. These wordes of theirs shutteth me out from the number of their Macheuils Well it is a poynte that woulde be considered That whiche I speake in the. 88. page I am ready to giue accounte of when I am thervnto by due authoritie called Neyther am I afrayde in time and place to speake that whiche I thinke In the rest of this Replie you doe but vtter your impatiencie and vntemperatenesse of your spéeche and therfore I will dismisse you as Dauid dyd Shemei A vievve of the seconde Admonition The seconde parte consisteth onely of rayling wordes and slaunderous Slaunder 〈◊〉 the Churche of Englande accusations first agaynst this whole Churche of Englande for they say that we are scarse come to the outwarde face of a Churche rightly reformed and that although some truthe be taught by some preachers yet no Preacher maye without great daunger of the lawes vtter all truthe comprised in the worde of God c. And a little after they adde and saye that the truthe in a maner doth but peepe out behinde the screene which speeches as they be very vntrue for who knoweth not that the Gospell is wholly publikely and freely preached in this Church of Englande so they be slaunderous neyther can the Papists speake any worse In this parte also to proue that this is no true saying in matters of policie and gouernment it is not repugnant to the word of God and therfore it may be vsed is alleaged this saying of Christ. Mat. 12. He that is not vvith me is agaynst me But they haue forgotten the wordes of Christ Mat. 9. Qui non est aduersus nos pro nobis est He that is not agaynst vs is vvith vs. Wherevpon we maye muche better conclude that that which is not repugnant to the Scripture is consonant to the Scripture than they can doe the contrarie of the former place Notwithstanding in both these places as I think Christ speaketh rather of men and persons than of things them selues In the same parte their speeche of the Queenes supremacie is very Supremacie of the Quene secretly denied suspicious and it would be demaunded of them what they thinke in deede of hir Maiesties anthoritie in ecclesiasticall matters for in this poyut they haue hitherto dealt very subtilly and closely notwithstanding their meaning may easily be perceyued of suche as diligently consider their bookes Likewyse in this parte they note certayne contrarietics in thys Churche as betwixte the Communion booke and Iniunctions touching wafers the Communion booke and aduertisementes concerning Churche vestures the Canons and the Pontificall in not ordering of ministers sine titulo and suche like matters of no importance whiche iustifie rather this Churche than otherwyse for surely if they had had weightier matters they woulde no doubte haue alleaged them But in these same matters they are muche deceyued for as I suppose in matters of ornaments of the Churche and of the ministers thereof the Queenes Maiestie togither with the Archbishop or the Commissioners in causes ecclesiasticall haue authoritie by Acte of Parliament to alter and appoynt suche rites and ceremonies as shall from tyme to tyme be thoughte to them moste conuenient To be shorte in that poynt they saye that in thinges of order one Church may many times differ from another without offence following the generall rules of Scripture for order as in appoynting time and place for prayers c. Which is a very true saying and flat contrarie to all that is sayde eyther Contrarietie in these men in the first Admonition or in this seconde for if suche things may be appoynted in the Churche not beeing expressed in the word of God but depending vpon this generall rule Let all things be done decently and in order 1 Corinth 14. then surely the Magistrate hathe authoritie in suche matters to appoynt what shall be thought vnto them most conuenient so that it be not repugnant to the worde of God except you will make this the question whether in such matters we ought to be directed by the Magistrates and gouernours of the Church or by euery priuate Pastor in his seuerall charge Io. Whitgifte All this is let slippe without answere The vievve of the seconde Admonition The thirde parte of this booke condemneth the degrees of Doctors Degrees in the Uniuersities cōdemned Bachelers of Diuinitie and Masters of Arte in the Uniuersities and slaunderously vntruely and opprobriously speaketh of the Uniuersities and suche as be in them presumptudusty prescribing a maner of reformation for the same when as I thinke verily they knowe not what Uniuersities meane But heere we maye note that they seeke to ouerthrowe all learning and degrees of learning The same parte also very slaunderonsly and vnchristianly rayleth on some Bishops by name and the rest of the Cleargie charging them most vntruely with sundrie things but bicause it is done by way of Libelling a Diuelishe kinde of reuenge therfore I trust godly and wyse men will esteeme of it accordingly Besides slaunderous reportes and opprobrious words there is nothing in thys parte worthy the answering T. C. Pag. 176. Sect. 2. After he accuseth the Admonition as if it condemned scholes and Uniuersities with all maner degrees when it dothe but inueigh agaynst degrees giuen of custome rather than of right rather by money than by merite of learning and when titles of Doctorship be giuen to those which haue not the office of a Doctor and oftentimes to those which can not doe the office if they had it and when men doe seeke vayneglory in them and suche lyke Io. Whitgifte Reade and marke their wordes page 16. and. 17. and the conclusion they vse after they haue in moste bitter maner inueighed agaynst suche degrées whiche is this These vayne names become suche vayne men but the Churche of God they become not and are forbidden by our Sauiour c. Their owne wordes be a sufficient declaration of their meaning and so is yours vttered before a playne proofe of your consenting vnto Pag. 173. sec. 1. them and
phansies they haue in this booke which they can not grounde vpon any scriptures but by wringing and wresting of them and in deede their seeking is to haue all things framed according to their fansies that they may be accompted planters and platformers of churches I omitte this that the author boasteth that he and many others will set thē selues against vs as the professed enimies of the churche of Christ For the matter is not great neither shall they in that point dea e an otherwyse with vs than the Anabaptistes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ther H e likes haue dealte with other Churches This shal be sufficiēt for an answere to y ◠booke bicause all other matters of substance are by me answered before in the former cōfutatiō Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered neither is this proclamation of defense solued A briefe ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets spread abroad of late I haue of late receiued three litle Pamphlets the first as it were a preface to the other two the second entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherly with their brethren The thirde An exhortation to the Bishops and their clergie to answere a litle booke that came foorth the last Parliament and to other brethren to iudge of it by Gods worde vntil they see it answered and not be carried away with any respect of men The preface cōsisteth of these pointes especially first by diuers exāples it is there declared that the wicked and vngodly of this world could neuer away with suche as would reproue them for their manifest sinnes and vngodlines Secondly that this is the cause why these twoo treatises whiche were lately written and imprinted in the laste Parliament time c. wer of so many misliked and the authors therof so cruelly entreated and streightly imprisoned c. Thirdly it raileth on the bishops and such as be in authoritie comparing them to false prophets and to Phariseis c. Last of all it cōcindeth with threatening that if they go forwarde in their synnes their doings shal be with more bitternes of wordes and plainenesse of speache throwen into their faces The first is nedelesse for who knoweth not that from time to time it hath bin the manner of such as were desperatly wicked not to suffer their sinnes openly to be reproued The second is false vncharitable slaunderous for the cause why the bookes be not estemed especially of the wise learned is the vntrue doctrine conteined in them mainteined with vntrue and v apt allegations of the scriptures and enterlaced with opprobrious termes and railing speaches tending to the disquietnes of the church and ouerthrow of true religiō The authors therof to be imprisoned not for telling any mā of his sinnes but for writing libels against this whole church of England against the booke of common praer against the ministery against y e sacraments finally against the whole forme and gouernmēt of the church by the whole consent of this Realme established and according to the rule of Gods word And with what face can you say that they be imprisoned for telling men of their sinnes where euer reade you or heard you that any of the Prophets or Apostles tolde men of their sinnes by libels Surely Libelling is no true way of reforming that kinde of dealing is not for the Apostles of Christe but for the ministers of Sathan T C. Pag. 177. Sect. 1. here he saith the authors of the Admomtion are not punished or their booke misliked for that it telleth of the faults in the church or of the sinnes of men but for y t it mainteineth false doctrine for that they preferred a libel for the doctrine it appeareth by that which is said what it is And if he would define what a libel were ▪ it were easy to answere vnto the other point If he meane bicause it was preferred without any name vnto it how will he answere (*) Forsoo h 〈◊〉 you make wicked comparison to the example of S. Iohn in y e Apocalips who reprehend ng the ministers o diuers churches ▪ did not (a) A manifest vntruth put to his name vnto his book And to the writer of the Epistle vnto the Hebrewes ▪ which was a singular instrument and did not subscribe his epistle wherin notwithstāding he sharply rebuketh diuers faults amongst thē And yet S. Iohn nor the writer to the Hebrues were not the ministers of Satan And if he call it a libell bycause it vseth some sharper speaches surely all men see that his booke deserueth then to be called a Satyr hauing for tart words bitter and for one twenty But in what respect soeuer he calleth it a libell he accuseth not so much the authours of the Admonition for preferring of it as diuers of the honorable house of Parliament which did allow it Io. Whitgifte The comparison is very vnequall and odious that you make betwixte the holy bookes of the Scripture indited by the spirit of God and reputed and taken as portions of the canonicall scriptures wherein only we haue to séeke the doctrine of saluation and these rayling rude vncharitable and vnlearned Admonitions And yet in the one of them that is in the Reuelation you are fouly ouershot for the name of Iohn setteth his name to the Apocalips both in the beginning end the author of that booke is expressed thrée times in the firste chapter and that with such circumstances that it cannot well be doubted who the author was though you would cauill about the multiplicitie of the name Likewise his name is expressed in the latter chapter of the booke wherefore you were not well aduised when you set it downe that S. Iohn in the Apocalips did not put his name to his booke He saithe in the. 1. cap. in the first verse Seruo suo Iohanni and in the. 4. verse Ioannes 7. ecclesijs quae sunt in Asia and a little after Ego Ioannes frater vester c. and in the last chap. Ego Ioannes qui audiui vidi haec The epistle to the Hebrues hath no opprobrious and slanderous words in it neither doth the author thereof séeke to defame or deface any body as the authors of the Admonition do If my booke be comparable to eyther of the Admonitions in sharpe and vncharitable speaches proue it vnto me by comparing them togither and surely I will like the worse both of my boke and of my self and confesse that I haue offended Although I might excuse my selfe in saying that I haue done it in the defense of the truth and vendicating this Church of England from such vntollerable slanders as they burthen it with If any of the honorable house of Parliament did consent to the publishing of it in that manner and forme that it was published which I am sure they did not as you vndutifully and vntruly charge them I will not excuse them and yet they cannot be said to be either the authors or the publishers of it neither can their allowing of
zeale is euen that that Zuinglius doth charge the Anabaptists with when he sayth Ira est non spiritus quo se venditant The ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets c. In this portion entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherly with their brethren ther is no great matter conteined worthie of answering only the author doth excuse himselfe for taking vpon him that exhortation moueth the Bishops to deale brotherly with the authors of the Admonition First bicause they be their rethren secondly bicause they ought first to haue discouered vnto the world by the word of God howe truely or falsely they haue written Thyrdely bycause they do but disclose the disorders of our Churche of England and humbly desyre a reformation of the same according to the rule of Gods worde c. Fourthly that Papists lye abroade in their dioces vntouched c. Fiftly that many lewde light bookes and balades flye abroade printed not onely withoute reprehension but Cum priuilegio Likewise in y e same booke the author seemeth to iustifie the Admonitiō to condemne the lordship and authoritie of Bishops ascribing thervnto the stay hinderance of their pretenced reformation charging them after a sorte with mangling the Scriptures of God and with snaring the godly with such lawes as were purposely made for the wicked These be the principall contentes of that booke The first reason that is That they be their brethren might as wel be alleaged Bretheren may be punished for the impunitie of Anabaptists Arrians and such like who pretend the sinceritie of gods word and would be counted brethren yea it might as well be alleaged for many other malefactours who be also brethren and yet must not therfore escape vnpunished for their offences Shall not the Prince and the magistrate execute lawes vpon suche as breake them bicause they be their brethren in Chryst Beware of such doctrine and let not affection in priuate mens causes carie you headlong into publike errors But I thinke you are in this pointe deceiued for howsoeuer we accompte them our brethren yet they accompt not vs their brethren neyther will they acknowledge vs so to be as some of them both in open speache and manifest signes haue declared And therfore when the Bishops deale with them they deale with suche as disdayn to be called their brethren T. C. Page 177. Sect. 3. After M. Doctor confuteth his owne shadow for the exhortatiō doth not require that the name of a brother should deliuer the authors of the Admonition from punishment if they deserued it but desi eth that it might worke some moderation of the rigoure of it and compassion to minister to their necessities in prison He sayeth that the authors of the Admonition take not them for theyr brethren yes verily although vnbrotherly handled and for fathers too and so both loue them and reuerence them vntill which we hope will not be they shall manyfestly for the vpholdi g of their owne kingdome and profite refuse to haue Christe to reigne ouer vs in whome this fatherhoode and brotherhoode doth consist Io. Whitgifte Let the readers iudge whether it be one of their reasons or no let them also consider that which I haue before alledged out of the second Admonition pag. 35. then tell me whether they take vs for brethren or no. Can you so well please your selues in your own platforme y t except we admit it we refuse Christ to reigne ouer vs I trust he hath reigned ouer vs hitherto and shall doo to the end though your platforme be sunke to the bottome of the sea An ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets To their second reason I answer that I thinke they haue bin talked with and heard what they haue to say for them selues but their hautie mindes and good opinion conceyued of themselues will not suffer them to see their errours In this reason you alledge nothyng for them but that which may also be alledged for the Papists or any other sect of heretikes But it is an old saying Turpe est doctori c. How hapneth it that they themselues haue first defamed not the Bishops only but also this whole Church of England with publike libells before they haue vsed brotherly and priuate conference This is to espie a moate in an other mannes eye c. How true the thirde reason is may appeare in my answere to their Admonition but how true soeuer it were yet their disordered disclosyng by vnlawful meanes that is by libelling deserueth as much punishment as hitherto they haue had for the truth nedeth no such vngodlie meanes of disclosyng If Papists goe abroade vnpunished when by lawe they maye be touched surely it is a greate faulte and can not bee excused and I praye God it maye bee better looked to But thys is no good and sufficient reason for the impunitie of other Bicause some Papistes be not punished shal therfore no disordered persons be punished Or bicause some in authoritie winke at some Papists shall therfore no lawes be executed towardes any offenders Surely touchyng malice agaynst the forme and state of this oure Churche I see no greate difference betwixt them and the Papists and I think verily they both conspire together The same answere I make to youre first reason shall no booke be suppressed bicause some be not It is a faulte I confesse to suffer lewde Ballades and Bookes touchyng Ballets manners But it were a greater faulte to suffer bookes and Libells disturbing the peace of the Churche and defacing true religion Concerning the titles and offices of Bishops I haue spoken sufficiently before In manglyng and wrestyng of the Scriptures none offende so muche as doe the authors of the Admonition who in that point are comparable to the Papistes as may be seene by the learned and diligent Reader If they whom they terme godly do willingly offende against such lawes as were made for the wicked they are to be punished according to the lawes neyther are they to be spared bicause they pretende Godlinesse bre keth no lawe godlynesse for there is no godlinesse in breaking of lawes The thirde scroule called An Exhortation to the Bishoppes and to theyr Cleargie to answere a little booke c. is satisfyed I trus e for I haue as it is there required answered the short and peeuishe Pamphlet as they tearme it I haue disclosed their double and corrupt dealing theyr wringing of the Scriptures to serue their turne and haue declared the true sense meaning of thē I haue not bumbast d it with rethorike but in plain simple maner vttered my iudgement according to uncient fathers contemned o ned men the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures notwithstanding I haue in sundrie pointes declared the vse of the Church of Christ in tymes past and do vse the testimonie of auncient Councels and learned fathers whiche these vnlearned men vnlearnedly contemne a thing not heard of in any age or Churche nor allowed of
any learned man but onely of certaine heretikes and especially Anabaptists To be short I haue not answered the booke by peeces but wholy Howbeit I must desyre them to pardon me for not making more speede with my answere their friuolous quotations so troubled me and my other businesse that I could no sooner make an ende of it In all the rest of that deryding Pamphlet there is nothing of any moment Augustine recor ed vpon the abu tsary worth the answering Therefore as they alledge this portion of a sentence taken out of S. Augustine in his Epistle ad Vinc n. Si terrerentur non docerentur improba quasi dominatio videretur If they shoulde be feared and not taught it might seme a vvicked gouernance so I con lude with the other part of the same sentence Si docerentur non terrerentur vetustate consuetudinis bdurarentur ad capescendam viam salutis pigrius mouerentur If they should be taught and not feared in time they vvoulde vvaxestubburne and bethe hardlier moued to imbracethe vvay of saluation T. C. Pag. 177. Sect. vlt. I know not whether they haue bene conferred with or no but I thinke the first reason which they had to perswade them was that they should go to Newgate ▪ which is that which the Exhortation cō layneth of after that they are first punished before they be taught And in this beh lfe M. Doctor hath no cause to complaine as he doth For if he list he may learne or euer he go to prison Io. Whitgifte If they were so sent to that place it was a méete reward for such disorderly dealing for ignorance may not excuse Libellers if they libell but against a priuate man much lesse shoulde it excuse them slaundering in that maner this whole Church and realme I doubt not but that I shall learne to know my selfe to do mydutie whilest I am out of prison so that I shall not iustly for lacke of dutie and honestie deserue it T. C. Pag. 178. Lin. 2. And as for the truth of the cause and wresting and mangling of the Scriptures in most places where they are sayde to mangle and wrest and how he hath answered the r quest of the Exhortation which is to confute the Admonition by the Scriptures and how truly ptly and learnedly M. Doctor hath behaued himself in citing of the old Councels and fathers I leaue it to be esteemed partly of that which I haue sayde and partly by the deeper consideration of those which bycause they can better iudge may see further into M. Doctors faults-and rapfodyes than I can Although the truth is that I haue bicause I would not make a long booke by heaping of one reprehension vpon an other contented my selfe rather to trip as it were and to passe ouer with a light foote the heades and summes of things than to number the faults which are almost as many as there are sentences in this booke more I am sure than there are pages Io. Whitgifte I haue confuted both them and you according to the giftes and grace that God hath gyuen mée with suche authorityes both of Scriptures and other learned Auth ours as is fitte to be vsed in the decyding of suche controuersies And I am well assured that you haue not omitted the least blot in my booke and for the most part you haue feyned agaynst your owne knowledge those to be whiche are not I refuse no mans iudgement of my dealing with the olde Councels and fathers that is learned and will speake without affection what he thinketh Your hyperbolicall conclusion or figure of lying where with you close vp your booke I am well vsed vnto and therefore it doth nothing trouble me but remayneth as a certaine note of the spirite that possesseth you which is the spirite of vntruth THus haue I according to that talent that God hath committed vnto me endeuoured my selfe to defende the state of this Church of England and the orders and rites therein by publyke authoritie established agaynst the slaunderous libelles of certaine vnquiet persons and this vncharitable replie of T. C. If eyther I haue omitted any thing that might haue béene vttered as I haue omitted many things or not so fully answered euery poynt that all men thereby may be satisfied namely such as will be satisfied with reason I doubt not but that there be a great number of singular learning and knowledge which will fulfill my want The which I do desire them most heartily to do euen for the loue that they haue to the peace of the Church not to suffer so common and weightie a cause to rest onely vpon one mans shoulder so farre inferiour to so many of them in all respects The contrarie part ceasse not to lay theyr heades togither and to make it all theyr cases which would more euidently appeare if their might were according to their will Therefore séeing that we like and allowe of the state let vs not suffer it to be defaced vniustly and without either learning or truth And if it shall please the contrarie part to answere this my defense then do I require no other thing of them than the selfe same which the Author of the Replie hath required of me and the which I haue accordingly performed that is that they set downe my wordes and answere me wholy which vnlesse they do they shal not onely with all wise men greatly dis redite themselues and shewe the lacke of truth to be on their side but also ease me of some paynes for I purpose not to answere Pamphlets nor to spend the time in confuting friuolous Libels The Lorde graunt that my labours may worke that effect that I desire that is peace in the Church and true obedience in the heartes of the Subiects Amen ¶ An examination of the places cited in the end of the Replie touching matters in controuersie T. C. ACcording to my promise made in my boke I haue here set down the iudgemēt of the later writers concerning these matters in controuersie betwene vs. VVherin bicause I loue not to translate out of other mens workes whereby I might make mine to grow I haue kept this moderation that I neither set downe all the writers nor all their places that I coulde nor yet of euery singular matter But the chiefest writers and either of the chiefest points or else of those wherein they are alledged against vs by M. Doctor and one only place of eache as farre as I coulde iudge and chose out most directe to that wherefore I haue alledged it For otherwise if I would haue spoken of all the pointes and of the iudgement of all the writers and gathered all the places that I coulde they would haue ben sufficient matter of an other boke as bigge or rather bigger than this I must also admonishe the Reader that I haue forborne in certeine of these titles to sette downe the iudgements of M Beza M. Bullinger and M. Gualter bycause they
are comprehended in the confession of the Churches And thus partly vpō those sentences which I haue alledged in this booke and partly vpon these testimonies here set down I leaue to the consideration of all men howe truely and iustly it is sayd that the learned writers of thesetimes one or two only excepted are against vs. Io. Whitgifte Surely it had bene more commendable in mine opinion if you had sette downe the verie wordes of the Authors themselues rather than your own collections pon them for so shoulde their iudgements more plainely haue appear whereas now you frame them as they may best serue for your purpose It is no shame for a man to translate out of other mens workes especially vsing their testimonies but it cannot be voyde of great reproch for any man so to be addicted to his owne persua on that he should so lightly regarde other mens opinions I doubt not but that the Reader will conceiue by these authorities that you haue here collected as chiefe principall and moste euident for the confirmation of your assertions vpon what slender pillers your building standeth For truely so farre as I can gather most of these places make little for your purpose and none of them inforce any such necessitie as you séeme to vrge as it will fall out in the examination of them T. C. 1 That there ought nowe to be the same regiment of the Churche which was in the Apostles time The confession of the Heluetian Tygurin Berne Geneua Polonia Hungarie and Scotlande with others in the 18. chapter speaking of the equalitie of Ministers saith that no mā may iustly forbid to returne to the olde constitution of the Churche of God and to recei e it before the custome of man Io. Whitgifte The confession in that place speaketh not one word of hauing Seniors in euery Parish neither yet of any other Seniors than those that be Ministers of the word and Sacramentes for the whole chapter intreateth of such Moreouer it sayth not that we ought to returne to that old gouernment but that we maye returne so that it is from your purpose and maketh more against you than with you For the question is not whyther we maye returne to that ynde of gouernment or no if it seeme good to the Christian Magistrate to whome God hath now committed the gouernment of the Church but whether the Christian Magistrate ought of necessitie to receiue that kynde of gouernment and no other which this confession doth no where affirme T. C. M. Caluine in his Institutions 4. booke 3. chapter and. 8. section speaking of the auncients which did assist the Pastors in euery Church sayth that experience teacheth that that order was not for one age and that this office of gouernment is necessarie to all ages Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine in that place sheweth what hath bene and what maye be in the Churche but he doth not make that kynde of gouernment so necessarie that it can not be altered His meaning is that that kinde of gouernment is necessarie for all ages bycause in euery age the Churche in one place or other is in persecution but he no where saythe as I remember this kynde of gouernment to be necessarie in all states of the Churche nay he affirmeth the directe contrarie in the same booke the seuenth chapter and. 15. section Where he speaking of the gouernment of the Churche sayth thus Scimus autem politiam pro varietate temporum recipere imò exigere varias mutationes Wee knowe that the gouernment of the Churche according to the diuersitie of times dothe receyue yea require or exacte diuers alterations T. C. And in the. 12. chapter and first section of the same booke saythe as much of Excommunication and other Ecclesiasticall censures Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine sheweth in that place howe necessarie discipline is in the Churche whych is not denyed he speaketh not in that section of any thyng nowe in controuersie T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the thirde to the Romaines teacheth that although the common wealth chaunge hir gouernment yet the Church alwayes keepeth hirs stil. Io. Whitgifte Let the Reader peruse that place and he shall perceiue howe cunning you are in counterfeiting For M. Martyr speaketh there onely of the lawes of God whiche be immutable and sheweth that therein the Churche of God doth differ from a common wealth bycause the common wealth doth often chaunge hir lawes but the Churche doth not so and he meaneth such lawes as be of the essence and being of the Church are of fayth and of saluation He speaketh also of the inwarde and essentiall forme of the Church not of the external and accidental forme of it whych is now in question and of the spiritual gouernment not of the externall gouernment Certaine it is that no law of God not being personall or temporall is to be altered But I require to haue that law sette down which establisheth this forme of gouernment for the whiche you nowe contende T. C. Bucer in his firste booke of the kingdome of Christe the. 15. chapter lamenteth that there were found amongst those which are counted of the forwardest Christians which woulde not haue the same discipline vsed nowe that was in the times of the Apostles obiecting the differences of times and of men Io. Whitgifte There is nothing in that chapter that maketh any thing wyth you or against me for who denyeth but that the discipline that Christe hath appoynted ought to be mainteined and kept in his Church our question is of the manner of executing it of the persons and of certaine other circumstances whereof M. Bucer in that chapter speaketh not one worde and that the Reader may vnderstande howe you seeke to delude him I will recite the wordes of M. Bucer in that chapter wherein he comprehendeth al that which is spoken in the same chapter touching this matter Out of all these testimonies of the holy Scripture concerning Christes kingdome they that beleeue the worde of God shall easily vnderstande that what soeuer Christe the Lorde bath commaunded vs and appoynted the same to bring a sure and great helpe to our saluation if it be so obserued as be bath commaunded and appointed it and that in all ages howsoeuer men and times doe varie neyther can wee wittginly for any cause intermitte or neglecte any of them but we muste therewith refuse and despise Christe himselfe and his whole kingdome All which I graunt and they touch not any thing nowe in controuersie Surely these be but slender testimonies to proue that there ought nowe to be the same regiment of the church whiche was in the Apostles times if you speake of the externall regiment which only is now in question T. C. 2 That one minister ought not to haue any dominion ouer an other The foresaide Heluetian confession c. in the seuententh chapter saythe that Christe did most seuerely prohibite vnto his Apostles and their successors primacie and dominion and in the
churche is an ordinarie function in a Churche lawefully constituted which office in the. 30. he calleth the Deaconship Io. Whitgifte In neither of these doth M. Beza so tie prouiding for the poore to Deacons that they must by them be prouided for and by no other hée onely sheweth what was done in this case in the Apostles tyme and in the tymes immediatly following but there is neyther Scripture nor any learned wryter that teacheth that the poore may be by no other prouided for than by Deacons You proue that which no man denieth and speake not one worde of the matter in question that is whether of necessitie the poore must be prouided for by Deacons and not otherwyse T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. to the Romaynes speaking of the Elders whiche did assiste the Pastor in euery Churche and of the Deacons lamenteth that this order is so fallen out of the Churche that the names of these functions do scarce remayne Io. Whitgifte That which Peter Martyr speaketh in that place is spoken generally of all that the Apostle had before wrytten touching the publike ministers of the Churche and therfore you doe vniustly restrayne it only to Elders and Deacons It maye euidentlye appeare that M. Martyr maketh there a comparison betwixt the gouerranent of the Churche of Christe in the Apostles tyme the gouernment of the Popes Church in his tyme as his wordes following declare for thus he addeth immediatly In steade of these they haue brought in Taperbearers Acoluthes and Subdeaco which with their light and stagelike gestures serue at their superstitious altar So that you can not gather of this place that your Seigniorie is perpetuall and must of necessitie for euer remayne in the Churche T. C. M. Bucer in his first booke of the kyngdome of Christ for the auncients of the Churche sayeth that the number of the Elders of euery Churche ought to be encreased according to the multitude of the people and in the. 14. chapter of the same booke sayeth that this order of Deaconship was religiously kept in the Churche vntill it was dryuen out by Antichriste Io. Whitgifte It had bene well to haue noted the chapter out of the which you gather that first saying of M. Bucer howebeit the matter is not great for the question is not whether the number of the Elders of euery Churche ought to be encreased according to the number of the people or no in such places where this kynde of gouernment is admitted but whether this kynde of gouernment muste of necessitie in all Churches and at all tymes be put in practise I doe not remember that M. Bu er any where affirmeth that In déede in the fifth chapter of the firste booke speakyng of these Seniors he sayeth Tales sanè possunt cum administris doctrinae Sacramentorum Christi disciplinam exercere c. Such may exercise the diseipline of Christe with the ministers of the worde and Sacramentes c. He sayeth they may doe it not that they ought to do it That whiche M. Bucer speaketh of the Deaconshippe in the 14. chapter is not denied but hee nowhere sayeth that the poore muste of necessitie hée prouided for by Deacons and by none other and hée teacheth in the same chapter that mo things apperteyned to the office of the Deacon than to prouide for the poore as namely to assiste the ministers in the administration of the Sacramentes and exercising of discipline What sufficient proofes these bée to induce that necessitie of the kynde of gouernment so greatly vrged by you let the learned Reader iudge T. C. 5 That excommunication pertayneth not to any one man in the Churche M. Caluine in his Institutions 4. booke and 11. Chapter and. 6. Section teacheth that excommunication porteyneth not to one man and that it was to wicked a facte that one man taking the authoritie which was common to other to hymselfe alone opened a waye to tyrannie tooke from the Churche hir right and abrogated the Church Senate ordeined by the spirite of Christe And in the. 12 chapter and. 7. Section he sayeth further that it ought not to be done without the knowledge and approbation of the Churche Io. Whitgifte Wée graunte that no one man ought to take that vnto hym selfe which doth not apperteyne vnto him but I haue proued Tract 18. that excommunication perteineth to Byshops and that this Church of England hath consented there vnto wherefore M. Ca uine speaketh against that excommunication whiche the Pope violently and tyrannically vsurpeth and not against this whiche our Bishoppes in this Churche of Englande both by the lawes of God and consent of the Churche exercise I speake of the thing it selfe and not of the abuse T. C. M. Beza in his confessions 5. chapter 43. Section sayeth that this power of excommunicating is giuen to no one man except it please God to worke extraordinarily Peter Martyr vpon the firste to the Corinthes and fifth chapter sayeth that it is very daungerous to permitte so waighty a matter as excommunication to the discretion and wil of any one man And therefore both that tyrannie might be auoyded and this censure execeuted with greater fruite and grauitie that the order whiche the Apostles there vseth is still to be obserued Io. Whitgifte To M. Beza and M. Martyr I answere as I dyd to M. Caluine and yet M. Martyr séemeth to expounde hym selfe in the same place where hée speakyng against the committing of this authoritie of excommunicating to the Pope or to one Bishop and refelling this saying of the Papistes Episcopum esse totam ecclesiā virtualiter when as they be rather tora ecclesia vitialiter as he there affirmeth he addeth by and by de malis haec intelligas tyrannicè agentibus Vnderstande this of euill Dishops and such as deale tyrannically whereby he declareth that he speaketh agaynst the committing of this discipline to euill Bishops and such as vse it tyrannically T. C. M. Bucer of the kingdome of Christ. in the. 1. book and. 9. chapter sayth that Saint Paule accuseth the Corinthians for that the whole Church did not cast out of their companie the incestuous person Io. Whitgifte The question is not whether the whole Church may haue to doe in excommunication or no but whither the consent therof is al tymes therein to be required What the meaning of the Apostle is in that place to the Corinth I haue declared Tract 15. T. C. 6 That Chauncellours Commissaries Officials c. vsurpe authoritie in the Church which belongeth not to them M. Caluine in his Institutions 4. booke 11. chap. 7. Sect. speaketh agaynst the office of Officials and alledgeth diuers reasons agaynst them as that they exercise that part of the Bishops charge and that they handle matters whiche perteyne not to the spirituall iurisdiction Io. Whitgifie M. Caluin in that place alledgeth no reasons at al against those offices only he sayth that they exercise that part of the Bishops charge and that they
handle matters which perteyne not to the spirituall iurisdiction this I say he speaketh but he doth not proue it In the rest of that Section he intreateth of the abuses of such officers wherein I doe not dissent from him T. C. M. Beza in hs booke of Diuorces prouing that the iudiciall deciding of matrimoniall causes apperteyneth vnto the ciuill magistrate sayth that Officials Proctors end Promoters and in a worde all the swinish filth now of long time hath wasted the Church Io. Whitgifte I vnderstande not by what reasons M. Beza in that place proueth that the iudiciall deciding of matrimoniall causes apperteyneth to the ciuill Magistrate Howbeeit Officials c. in such cases deale not in this Church of Englande without the consent and authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate It is not good dealing to applie those things which M. Beza and other speake of such offices abused vnder the Pope to the same offices nowe reformed vnder a Christian Prince that professeth the Gospell But thus you dazell the peoples eyes T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. Chap. to the Romaines speaking against the ciuill iurisdiction of Bishops doth by the same reason condemne it in their Deputies the Officials Io. Whitgifte Peter Martyr speaketh not agaynst the office but agaynst certaine abuses in the officers this is not simple dealing to transferre that to the office that is spoken of the abuse of the office T. C. 7 That the Ministers of the worde ought not to exercise any ill offices and iurisdiction M. Caluin in his institutions 4. booke 11. chap. 9. Sect. bringeth diuers reasons to proue that Bishops may neyther vs rpe nor take 〈◊〉 giuen them eyther the right of the sworde or the knowledge of ciuill causes Io. Whitgifte The reasons that M. Caluine vseth there be neyther many nor greatly strong I haue answered them fullie Tract 23. and yet M. Caluine speaketh onely of that princely power which the Romishe Bishops clayme not as committed vnto them by the Prince and and ciuill Magistrate but due vnto them by the worde of God from the which chalenge I haue shewed in the foresayde treatise howe farre our Bishops are T. C. M. Beza in his Confessions Chap. 5. Sect. 32. sayth that the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction is to be distinguished from the ciuill and that although the Bishoppes in the tymes of christian Emperours were troubled with the hearing of ciuill causes yet they did not that by any iudiciall power which they exercised but by a friendly intreatie of the parties whiche were at discorde and sayth notwithstanding that herein the Emperours did giue to much to the ambition of certaine Bishops wherevpon by little and by little afterwarde all things were confounded And in the. 42. Section sayth that those corporall punishments whiche the Apostles exercised were peculiar and extraordinarie Io. Whitgifte M. Beza his bare worde is no sufficient proofe agaynst so many other testimonies and reasons as are to the contrarie and I haue sufficiently shewed Tract 23. cap. 3. Diuis vlt. that Bishops in tymes past did not onely heare ciuill causes but also iudicially determine the same Touching the corporall punishments which the Apostles exercised M. Beza in his booke de Haereticis a magistratu puniendis doth make them so ordinarie that he vseth them as sufficient arguments to proue his purpose and sayth plainly that the Apostles did exercise these punishments not by the right of the Ecclesiasticall ministerie but by the right of the ciuill Magistracie as I haue declared Tract 23. Cap. 3. Diuis 12. T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. to the Romanes speaking of this meetings of both Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in one man sayth that when both the ciuill and Ecclesiasticall functions do so meete that one hynder the other so that he which exerciseth the one cannot minister the other Io. Whitegifte M. Martyr speaketh of an absolute iurisdiction ciuill such as the Pope claymeth and not of this which is practised by the Bishops in the Church of England whereof he had experience in the dayes of King Edwarde euen in this realme and the which he also then allowed T. C. M. Bucer vpon the. 5. of Matthew sayth that there is no man so wise and holy which is able to exercise both the ciuill and the Ecclesiasticall power and that therefore he whiche will exercise the one must leaue the other Io. Whitgifte I answere as I did to M. Martyr for he also allowed that ciuill iurisdiction that the Bishops in England did exercise in the time of King Edwarde T. C. 8 That the Sacraments ought not to be priuately administred nor by women The foresayd confession C. 20. holdeth that baptisme ought not to be ministred by women or midwyues to the which also may be ioyned the Liturgie of the English Church at Geneua which condemneth the ministring of eyther of the Sacraments in priuate houses or by women I Whitgifte These be néedlesse proofes yet are there learned mē of the cōtrary iudgemēt ow beit no man sayth that women may baptise ordinarily or that the Sacramonts may be administred in priuate places otherwise than vpon vrgent occasion and in that respecte no learned man dothe condemne the ministring of the Sacramentes in priuate places T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. chapter of the. 1. Epistle to the Corinthes in describing the corruptions of the Lordes Supper noteth this to be one that the Churche did not communicate altogither which corruption as it was in diuers places in tymes past so he complayneth that it is nowe Io. Whitgifte M. Martyr in that place speaketh agaynste priuate Masses and the complainte that he maketh is concerning them wherein we fully agrée with him neyther doe we like or allowe of suche as withdrawe themselues from the Lordes table when the Supper is celebrated You neuer loue to rehearse the authors wordes bycause they make not for you but gather collections of your owne contrarie to the meaning of the author as you do in this place which the Reader shall easily perceiue if it wil please him to reade M. Martyr himself in that place by you quoted And surely it is too great iniurie to wreste that to the order of celebrating the Communion allowed off in this Church of Englande which he or any man else speaketh agaynst pryuate Masses but such are your deepe and profounde collections T. C. M. Bucer in his first booke of the kingdome of Christ and. 7. chapter proueth out of the 10. to the Corinthes that the whole Churche shoulde receiue the Supper of the Lorde togyther and that the vse of the Church of God in this behalfe ought with great and diligent endeuour to be restored vnto the Churches and that it is a contempt of the mysteries not to be partakers when they are called Io. Whitgifte M. Bucer speaketh nothing in that place touching this question where vnto I agrée not he woulde haue the Communion ministred in the publike congregation who denyeth that except
it be vpon occasion of sicknesse c as I haue before declared he woulde haue all or the moste parte that be present to communicate and who defendeth the contrarie and yet if they will not the rest may not be secluded his whole drift is to reproue such as will not communicate and not to prohibite the distribution of the Supper to those that be willing be they moe or be they fewer so that there be a competent number that it may be a Communion T. C. M. Beza against VVestphalus sheweth that it is not decent that baptisme be ministred but in the Church and that at standing houres and by the ministers and further that vpō no necessitie as it is called it ought to be ministred in priuate houses And that if it might be ministred in priuate houses yet not otherwise than by Ministers Io. Whitgifte You vntruely report M. Beza his wordes he onely sheweth in that place what the order of the Church is where he remaineth he doth not prescribe any certaine rule for all Churches neyther is it méete that he shoulde in such cases He so speaketh of baptizing in priuate houses that he doth not simplie condemne it But what soeuer his iudgement is in that poynt his mynd is not I am sure to bynde all other Churches to the same which thinke and teach as soundly of this Sacrament as he doth or can do though they agrée not with him in all circumstances T. C. M. Caluin in his Institutions 4. booke chapter 15. sect 20. 21. proueth that baptisme ought not to be ministred by priuate men or by any women Io. Whitgifte Only ministers of the Church are y e ordinarie ministers of baptisme neither may any other chalenge that function vnto thēselues ordinarily but yet if vpon occasion a priuate person do baptise the baptisme is good and lawfull euen as the circumcision was true circumcision that was ministred by Sephora As I haue proued Tract 9. cap. 5. T. C. ◠The iudgement of those late writers touching ceremonies and apparell whose secrete Epistles M. Doctor alledgeth appeareth by these places following cited out of their works printed and published by themselues Wherof also some are alledged by the answerer to the examiner where are diuers other places to this purpose wherevnto I referre the Reader M. Bucer vpon the. 18. of Mathewe saith that they say nothing which do alwayes obiect that greater things must be vrged than the reformation of ceremonies thereby defending the reliques of Antichrist for as much as ceremonies are testimonies of Religion And that as there is no agreement betweene Christe and Belial so those whiche are sincere Christians can abide nothing of Antichrist Io. Whitgifte M. Bucer sayth truely for the reformation of ceremonies is to be sought and not to be neglected neyther can sincere Christians abyde any thing of Antichriste as it is Antichristes but what is all this to the purpose is there no reformation of ceremonies in this Church of Englande from the whiche all Antichristian ceremonies are abandoned and those that remaine purged from al opinion of Antichristianitie And that M. Bucer ment nothing lesse than the ceremonies nowe reteined in this Church of Englande as we vse them it maye euidently appeare by that whiche I haue alledged out of him Tract 7. cap. 5. the. 5. diuision and chap. 7. diuision 4. T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 10. chap. of the second boke of the Kings saith that the Lutherans must take heede least whilest they cutte off many Popishe errors they followe Iehu by reteining also many Popish things For they defende still the reall presence in the bread of the Supper and Images and Vestiments c. and saith that religion must be wholly reformed to the quick Io. Whitgifte M. Martyr nameth the Popishe things which the Lutherans obserue to be the reall presence images all the Popish apparell which they vsed in their Masse for so doth he meane which this Church hath refused What his opinion is of this apparell that we reteine I haue declared tract 7. chap. 5. the. 4. diuision where he of purpose speaketh concerning the same God be thanked Religion is wholly reformed euen to the quicke in this Churche T. C. Bullinger in his Decades 5. Booke and ninth Sermon saythe that our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles vsed their accustomed apparell in the Supper and that although in tymes paste the Ministers put on a kynde of cloake vpon their common apparell yet that was done neyther by the example of Chryste nor of his Apostles but by the tradition of man and that in the ende after the example of the Priestes apparell in the olde lawe it was caste vpon the Ministers at the ministration of the Supper But sayth hee we haue learned long agoe not onely that all Leuiticall ceremonies are abrogated but also that they ought to be brought agayne into the Churche of no man And therfore seeing we are in the light of the Gospell and not vnder the shadowe of the lawe we do worthily reiecte that Massing Leuiticall apparell Io. Whitgifte Neyther do we reteine the massing Leuiticall apparell but that apparell onely which Bullinger himselfe alloweth of in diuers Epistles written of purpose touching these matters as I haue expressed Tract 7. Chapter 5. the. 6. Diuision c. T. C. Gualter vpon the. 21. of the Actes among others bringeth this for one reason to improue Paules shauing of his head for that the Gospel had beene preached twentie yeares and that therefore the infirmitie of the Iewes ought not to haue bene borne with And after he saith that that teacheth howe muche the superstitious Maisters of ceremonies hurte the Gospell which nourishe the weaknesse of fayth by the long keping of ceremonies and by their long bearing hinder the doings of those ministers which are more feruent Io. Whitgifte M. Gualter in these wordes sayth nothing against any poynt of this Churche he speaketh truely and nothing to your purpose M. Gualter hath sufficiently shewed his opinion in these matters not onely in written Epistles but in printed bookes as in his Epistle before his commentaries vpō the first to the Corinthians Surely there is no suche weight in these authorities for your purpose that you can take any great aduauntage of them indéede your cause in my opinion hath won small credite by alledging of them ¶ Imprinted at London by Henry Bynneman for Humfrey Toy dvvelling in Paules Churchyard at the signe of the Helmet ANNO. 1574.
Churches consent shoulde be had in the election of T. C. vrgeth the Apostolicall forme and yet bringeth in that which is not Apostolicall the minister c. but how shall we know that you meane as you speake for you haue no warrant so to doe in any Apostolicall election or in any forme vsed in the Apostles time Wherefore either you must breake that rule which you would haue both to be perfit and perpetuall for all times and states or else doe you but dissemble with the Magistrate and minde nothing lesse than that you say you would do But as good neuer a whit as neuer a deale the better for the Magistrate muste The absurdities of the deuise of T. C. confyrme them or reiecte them if he be godly and take not from the Churche hir libertie in choosyng First what if the Magistrate be vngodly or who shall iudge whether he be so or no or howe shall the Magistrate knowe when the Churche in choosing and the Ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man who shall complayne to the Prince of his vnfitnesse if both the Ministers and people thinke him fitte or who shall iudge of hys fitnesse or what priuiledge shal the Magistrate haue hereby when he muste haue one of the peoples electing whether he will or no or else muste the Church the distitute Surely the Magistrate should haue a good office to be so troubled with suche elections in this Churche of Englande In good sadnesse tell me doe you not sée the absurdities of these youre fonde and troublesome deuises or are you so blynde that you perceyue not how farre you would swarue from the forme which you saye was vsed by the Apostles when you giue to the ciuill Magistrate the confirmation of ministers which they in their time kept to themselues Musculus hath in most playne manner taught the selfe same thing that I haue done as it may appeare to all those that will vnderstand but you of purpose woulde blind both your selfe and others That Byshops haue authoritie to admitte and ordeyne Ministers Chap. 7. the firste Diuision Admonition Nowe that authoritie is giuen into the handes of the Bishop alone who by his sole authoritie thrusteth vpon them suche as they many times as well for vnhonest life as also for lacke of learning may and do iustly dislike Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 46. Sect. 1. That Bishops haue authoritie to admitte Ministers which is heere denyed it is plaine by that which is written 1. Tim. 5. manus citò ne cui imponas Lay thy handes rashely on none These wordes Ambrose Chrysostome and all learned wryters for the moste part doe say to be an Admonition to Timothie that he oughte to be circumspecte in appoynting of Ministers And to Titus chap. 1. Paule saythe that he left him at Creta vt constituat oppidatim presbyteros that he shoulde appoynt Ministers in euery towne This Hierome and others doe expounde of the authoritie that Titus had in placing ministers in euery Church T. C. Pag. 39. Sect. 3. 4. Pag. 40. Sect. 1. 2. Nowe you woulde proue (*) A wilfull de prauing of the Answere that this election of Ministers by one man was in the Apostles tyme. But you haue forgotten your selfe whiche sayde a little before that this election by the Churche was not onely in the Apostles tymes but also in the time of Cyprian nowe you saye otherwyse And if the election of the minister by the Churche agree so well with the tyme of persecution and when there is no christian Magistrate howe commeth it to passe that in those dayes when persecution was so hotte and there were no suche Magistrates that Saint Paule woulde haue the election by one man and not by the Churche Besides that if (*) Who hath sayde so this be Saint Paule hys commaundement that the Byshop shoulde onely choose the Minister why doe you make it an indifferent thing and a thing in the power of the Churche to be varyed by tymes for this is a flat commaundement Thus you see you throw downe wyth one hande as fast as you build with the other But to answere directly to the place of the fifth of the first to Timothie I saye first that Saynt Paule writeth to Timothie and therefore instructeth him what he shoulde doe for his parte in the appoynting of the Minister If he had written to the whole churche of Ephesus he woulde lykewise haue instructed them howe they shoulde haue behaued themselues in that businesse If one doe write vnto his friende that hath interest in any election to take heede that he choose none but suche as are meete shall anye man conclude therevpon that none hathe to doe in that election but he to whome that letter is written Then I say further that Saynt Paule attributeth that vnto Timothie that was common to more with hym bycause he beyng the director and moderator of the election is sayde to doe that whiche many doe whyche thyng I haue proued by diuerse examples bothe oute of the Scripture and otherwise before And euen in thys imposition of handes it is manifestly to be shewed For that whereas Saynt Paule 2. Tim. 1. sayth in the seconde Epistle that Timothie was ordeyned by the putting on of hys handes vpon hym in the firste Epistle he sayth that he was ordeyned by the putting on of the handes of the 1. Tim. 4. eldership So that that whiche he in one place taketh to him selfe alone in the other he communicateth wyth moe Agayne it is a fault in you that you can not distinguishe or put difference betwene the election and imposition of handes Last of all I answere that althoughe thys mighte agree to Timothie alone as in deede it can not yet it followeth not that euery Byshop maye doe so For Timothie was an Euangelist which was aboue a Byshop as hereafter shall better appeare And it is an euill argument to saye the greater maye doe it therefore the lesse maye doe it The superiour therefore the inferiour If you were at any coste with producing your witnesses you shoulde not be so wyse to be so lauishe of them as to cite Ambrose and Chrysostome to proue a thing that none hath euer denyed for who denyeth that Sainte Paule doth not gyue warnyng to Timothie to be circumspecte if you meane to vse theyr testimonie to proue that he onely made the elections they saye neuer a word for you if there be any thing cite it To the place of Titus I answere as to that of Timothie for there is nothing there but agreeth also to this place And as for Hierome he hath nothing in that place as he hath in no other to (*) As if there were any 〈◊〉 thing affirmed proue that to the Byshop onely doth belong the right of the election of the Minister I haue shewed you reasons before why it can not be so taken of the sole election of the Byshop the Churche beyng shut
out If authorite woulde doe any good in thys behalfe as it seemeth it ought seeing that all your proofe throughout the whole booke is in the authorities of men whiche Aristotle calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vncunning proofes I coulde send you to M. Caluine which teacheth that it is not to be thought that S. Paul woulde permit to Titus to ordeiue Byshops ministers by his owne authoritie when he himselfe would not take so much vpon hym but ioyned his with the voyces of the Church But he peraduenture sauoureth not your ast and yet you would make men beleeue sometimes that you make muche of him if you can get but one worde (a) An vntrue accusation vnioynted and racked in peeces from the rest to make good your part If he weigh not with you you haue M. Musculus whome you take to be a great patron of yours in this cause Musculus in his com pla in his title of the election of ministers which doth with greater vehemencie affirme the same thing that M. Caluine sayth asking whether any man can beleeue that Paule permitted in this place to Titus or in the place before alleaged to Timothie that they should ordeine of their owne authoritie by themselues when as Paul would not doe it but by the voyces and election of the Church Io. Whitgifte The Admonition in the sixt article colorably but in the. 7. plainely affirmeth that Bishops may admit ministers the right of ordering ministers doth at no hande apperteine to the Bishop this doe I improue in this place and proue that the right of ordering electing Ministers doth apperteine to the Bishop but I haue contented my selfe with the fewer proofes bicause theyr assertion is so absurde that it can not but discredite their learnyng with all learned men And what so euer T. C. hath hetherto sayd manifestly declareth it to be vntrue yet now it is his pleasure to glosse vpon my words and to say that I woulde proue this election of Ministers by one man to haue bin in the Apostles time c. Whereas in déede my words be plaine and my meaning is to proue that the electing and ordering of ministers doth apperteine to Bishops I do not say only to Bishops When you say that the election of the Pastor doth apperteine to the people doe you meane that it only perteineth to the people But bicause you thinke y t to be so great a matter to say that in the Apostles tyme the election of Ministers was by one man seing that I haue sayd before that this election by the Church was in the Apostles time and after I will say now more than I sayd before that they be both true that is that in the Diuers kinds of ordeining electing ministers in the Apostles time Apostles time there was diuerse maners of ordeining electing Ministers For some time one alone did choose and ordeine sometimes many sometimes Ministers onely and sometime the people also as it may euidently be gathered both by that which is spoken before and by this also that I doe say in this place Zuinglius in his booke called Ecclesiastes sayth thus VVe reade in olde time of three kindes of elections some Zuinglius were chosen by the common and generall consent of all the faithfull gathered together in one place Other some were elected and sent by the Apostles onely Other some we maye finde whom one onely Apostle did choose and send as Titus whome Paule lefte at Creta committing vnto him the care of that Church The like sayth M. Bullinger Lib. 3. aduersus Bullinger Anabap. cap. 4. there is another calling of those whiche are also called of God but by men which choose sende according to gods ordinance as when Peter sent Marke and Paul both called and sent Timothie Titus Luke Thus you sée that it is counted no straūge matter to haue diuers kinds of calling electing ministers euen in the Apostles time And therfore in saying now that Bishops haue authoritie to admit ministers I saye nothing contrary to any thing that I haue saide before neither yet if I affirme that Timothie and Titus had this authoritie to themselues alone The election of the Minister by the Church is fittest for the time of persecution but that doth not seclude from the same time election and calling by one man neyther is this the question whether choosing by the common consent of the people or calling sending by one man be meetest for y e time of persecution but whether election made by the multitude is fitter for the time of persecution and when there is no christian Magistrate than for the tyme of prosperitie and vnder a Christian Magistrate and therefore you doe but incumber the Reader wyth false suppositions Elections by the multitude or by one onely maye be vsed in the tyme of persecution and at other times also as shall be most expedient for the Church Where doe I saye that it is Paules commaundemente that the Byshop shoulde onely T. C. peruerteth the sayinge of the Answerer choose the Minister vndoubtedly this is no true or diuine dealing wyllingly and wittingly to peruert a mans saying neither can it come of a good conscience and you haue faulted in it very oft I proue by that which S. Paule said to Timothie 1. Ti 5. Lay thy handes rashely on none that a Bishop hath authoritie to admitte 1. Tim. 5. Ministers bycause Timothie to whom these words were spoken was a Bishop and learned interpreters do say that Saint Paule by these words did admonishe Timothie that he ought to be circumspect in appointing of ministers Therfore this is not Paules commaundemente that a Bishop onely should ordeine ministers but this he giueth in charge to all Bishops in the name of Timothie that they lay their handes rashely on none whereby also he plainely signifieth that the ordering and electing of Ministers doth apperteine vnto them which is denied by the Admonitiō Here is then nothing throwne downe that was before builded but you cast snow balles at y e windowes of the building which may for a tyme darken them till your snowe be melte away with the Sunne Touching your direct answere as you call it to the place 1. Tim. 5. thus I briefely replie that it is but deuised of your owne head not grounded vpon any good authoritie nor consonant to the circumstance of the place or course of the Epistle Both Ambrose and Chrisostome and other learned writers as I haue sayd doe vnderstand it to be ment of the authoritie that Timothie had in ordering Bishops and ministers The whole Epistle and the circumstance of this place doe plainely testifie that thys was spoken to Timothie onely in the respect that he was a Bishop The preceptes that be conteined in this Epistle the most of them and in this Chapter especially are suche as properly perteyne to Timothie in the respecte that he was a Byshop and
poynte wherein the question especially lyeth whiche is whether this function be perpetuall and ought to remayne alwayes in the Churche And it is to be obserued by the waye that whereas there are dyuers sorts of aduersaries to this discipline o the Church M. Doctor is amongst the worste For there be that saye that thys order maye be vsed or not vsed nowe at the lybertie of the Churches But M. Doctor sayth that thys order is not for these times but onely for those tymes when there were no Christian Magistrates and so dothe flatly pynche at those Churches whiche hauing Christian Magistrates yet notwithstanding reteyne this order still Io. Whitgifte I say so still and I am able to defende my saying agaynst al that you haue shewed to the contrarie And yet do I not pinche at any Church that vseth it if there be any such so that they haue the consent of the ciuill Magistrate who may if he will depart from his right abridge himself of the authoritie cōmitted vnto him by God But he néede not so do except he list and whether it be wel done or no I will not determine this I am well assured of that in a Monarchie in a kingdome such as this Realme of England is it can not be practised without vntollerable contention extreme confusion except you could deuise to make euery seueral parish a kingdome within it selfe and exempt it from all ecclestastical ciuill iurisdiction of Prince Prelate whomsoeuer which vndoubtedly may séeme to be your séeking as will appeare hereafter Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. vlt. Pag. 140. Sect. 1. And to the ende that the vanitie of this distinction which is that there ought to be Seniors or Auncients in the times of persecution not of peace vnder tyrants not vnder christian Magistrates may appeare the cause why these Seniors or auncients were appoynted in the Church is to be considered which must needes be graunted to be for that the Pastor not beeing able to ouersee al himself to haue his eyes in euery corner of the church places where y e Churches abode might be helped of the Auncients Wherin the wonderful loue of God towardes his churche doth manifestly appeare that for the greater assurance of the saluation of his did not content himselfe to appoynt one onely ourseer of euery churche but many ouer euery churche And therefore seeing that the Pastor is nowe in the tyme of peace and vnder a christian Magistrate not able to ouersee al himselfe nor his eyes can not be in euery place of the parish present to beholde the behauiour of the people it followeth that as well nowe as in the tyme of persecution as wel vnder a christian Prince as vnder a tyrant the office of an Auncient or Senior is required Onlesse you will say that God hath lesse care of his church in the time of peace and vnder a godly magistrate than he hath in the time of persecution and vnder a tyrante Io. Whitgifte I say there may be Seniors in the time of persecution when there is no christian Magistrate not that there ought of necessitie to be God hath prouided the ciuill Magistrate and other gonernours to punishe and to correct vice and other disorders in the Church who hath his officers and deputies in euery place for that purpose neyther may the Pastor or any other to whome that charge is not committed by the ciuill magistrate vsurpe that office vnto them selues Wherefore that cause by you alleaged is no cause at all why there should be any suche Seniors where there are christian Magistrates neyther is that kinde of gouernment any parte of the Pastors charge The Pastor if he be a méete man is able to o al that that is required of a Pastor else might it be sayd which you before denied that God appoynted offices functiōs and gaue not sufficient gifts to execute do them Neyther can it be sayd that God hath esse care of his Church when he placeth ciuill and Christian Magistrates in the stead of Seniors than when he placeth Seniors and leaueth it destitute of Christian Mastrates For one of the most ingular benefites that God bestoweth on his Churche in this worlde is that he giueth vnto it christian Kings Princes from whose office and authoritie whosoeuer doth detract and withdrawe we any thing iniurieth the ordinance of God and sheweth him selfe vnthankfull for so great a benefite Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 140. Sect. 1. In deede if so be the Auncientes in the time of persecution vnder a tyrant had medled with any office of a magistrate or had supplied the roome of a godly magistrate in handling of any of those things whych belonged vnto him then there had bene some cause why a godly magistrate beeing i the churche the office of the Senior or at the least so muche as he exercised of the office of a magistrate should haue ceased But when as the auncient neyther dyd nor by any maner might meddle with those things which belonged vnto a magistrate no more vnder a tyrante than vnder a godly magistrate there is no reason why the magistrate entring into the churche the elder shoulde be therefore thrust out (*) Where finde you this in all the scriptures For the Elders office was to admonish seuerally those that did amisse to comforte those which he sawe weake and shaking and to haue neede of comforte to assist the Pastor in ecclesiasticall censures of reprehensions sharper or mylder as the faultes required also to assiste in the suspentions from the supper of the Lorde vntill some triall were had of the repentance of that partie which had confessed him self to haue offended or else if he remayned stubborne to assist him in the excommunication These were those things which the Elder dyd which for so muche as they may do as well vnder a christian magistrate as vnder a tyrant as well in the time of peace as in the time of persecution it followeth that as touching the office of Elders there is no distinctiō in the times of peace and persecution of a christian Prince and of a tyrant Io. Whitgifte I would gladly know by what place of scripture you can i stifie this office that you The office ascri ed to Seniors 〈◊〉 the gistrate o his authoriti in ecclesiasticall matters héere appoynt vnto Seniors In so weightie a matter in my iudgement you shoulde haue done well to haue vsed some authoritie of scripture or other auncient wryter The Admonition sayth that the office of Seniors was to gouerne the Church with the rest of the ministers to consult to admo sh to correct to order all things apperteyning to the state of the congregation Which if it be true I pray you what authoritie remayneth to the ciuill Magistrate in ecclesiasticall and Churche matters In d ede if you make such a distinction betwixt the Church
the cōmon wealth the ci ill Magistrate the ecclesiasticall as you do throughout your whole booke it is no mar ell though you thinke No more authoriti 〈◊〉 ed to a ch istian Magistrate tha t the Turke the office of Seniors to be perpetuall For you giue no more authoritie to a Christian Magistrate in ecclesiasticall gouernment thā you would do to the Turke if you were vnder him And therfore according to your platforme the gouernment of the Church is all one vnder a christian Magistrate and vnder the great Turke But to l aue the Admonition what haue you spoken of the office of Seniors which is not eyther proper to the Pastor or cōmon to all Christians or such as may be much better brought to passe by the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate than by the ignorance simplicitie and rudenesse of the most of your Seniors But first let vs heare more of your 〈◊〉 before we come to vtter the absurditie of your cause Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 140. in the midst But I will yet come nearer That without the which the principall offices of charitie cannot be exercised is necessarie and alwayes to be kept in the Churche but the office of Auncients Elders are such as without which the principall offices of charitie can not be exercised therfore it followeth that this office is necessarie That the principal offices of charitie cannot be exercised without this order of Auncients it may appeare for that he which hath faulted and amēdeth not after he be admonished once pri ately and then before one witnesse or two cānot further be proceeded against Math. 18. according to the commaundement of our sauiour Christ onlesse there be in the Church Auncients d Elders therfore this principal office of charitie which tendeth to the amendment of him which hath not pr̄ofited by those two former admonitions can not be exercised without them For it is commaunded of our sauiour Christ that in such a case when a brother doth not proffite by these two warnings it should be tolde the Church Now I would aske who be ment by the Church heere if he say by the Church are ment al y e people then I will aske how a man can conueniently complayn to all the whole congregation or how can the whole congregation conueniently meete to decide of this matter I do not denie but the people haue an interest in the excommunication as shal be noted hereafter bu the matter is not so farre come for he must first refuse to obey the admonition of the Church or euer they can proceede so farre Wel if it be not the people that be ment by the Church who is it I heare M. Doctor say it is the Pastor but if he will say so speake so straungely he must warrant it with some other places of scripture where the Church is takē for one which is as much to say as one man is many one member is a body one alone is a companie And besides this strangenesse of speech it is cleane contrary to the meaning of our sauiour Christ and destroyeth the soueraintie of the medicine which our sauiour Christ prepared for such a festred sore as would neyther be healed with priu te admonition neyther w t admonition before one or two witnesses For as y e fault groweth so our sauior Christ would haue the nūber of those before whō he shuld be checked rebuked likewise grow Therfore from a priuate admonition he riseth vnto the admonitian before two or three from thē to the church which if we should say it is but one then to a dangerouser wound should be layd an easier plaster therfore our sauiour doth not rise from two to one for that were not to rise but to fall nor to proceede but to go backwarde but to many Seeing then that the church here is neyther the whole congregation nor the pastor alone it followeth that by the churche here he meaneth the pastor with the Auncients or Elders Or else whom can he meane And as for this maner of speech wherin by the church is vnderstanded the chiefe gouernours and Elders of the church it is oftentimes vsed in the olde Testament from the which our sauiour borrowed this maner of speaking as in Exodus it is sayd that Moses wrought his miracles before y e 4. chap. people when mention is made before onely of the Elders of the people whome Moses had called togither And most manifestly in Iosue where it is sayd that he that killed a man at vnwates shall 0. chap. returne vnto the citie vntill he stand before the congregation to be iudged Where by the congregation he meaneth the gouernours of the congregation for it did not appertayne to all to iudge of this case Likewise in the Cronicles and diuers other places nd therefore I conclude that for so 1. li. 13. cha muche as those be necessarie and perpetuall which are spoken of in those words tell the Churche and that vnder those words are comprehended the Elders or Auncients that the Elders auncients be necessarie and perpetuall officers in the churche Io. Whitgifte Héere are many words without matter a great thing pretended to no purpose for the principal offices of charitie both hath bin may be wel exercised without your Seniors Dic ecclesiae interpreted the place Mat. 18. doth in no respect proue the contrarie For it only teacheth an order howe to procéede charitably in priuate offences not in publike as I haue shewed before Moreouer to tel the Church is eyther publikly to reproue those that haue bin priuately in that maner admonished wil not repent or else to complayne vnto such as haue authoritie in the Churche according to that which I sayde before of this place in my Answere to y e Admonition And héerein you ioyne with me in that you take the Church there for the chief gouernours of the Church though we differ in y e persōs Church for the gouernors of the church For you will haue it onely ment of the Pastor Seniors and I thinke it signifieth more generally any which are lawfully appoynted to gouerne the church But whether it be one or more that hath this authoritie committed vnto him it is more to tell him than it is to tell twentie besides because he béeing in authoritie doth beare the office of a publike Magistrate who hath power publikely to correct that whiche was priuately cōmitted and therfore he that telleth one suche may wel be sayd to tell the Church bicause he telleth such a one as hath authoritie in the Church and is a publike person So that he riseth from priuate admonition to open complaint from priuate witnesses to a publike Magistrate and therfore this is to rise not to fal to procede not to goe backwarde But admit that mo than one is vnderstanded by the name of the Church whiche I also confesse yet doth it