Selected quad for the lemma: book_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	church_n	prayer_n	public_a	3,025	5	6.8559	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A23641	A defence of the answer made unto the nine questions or positions sent from New-England, against the reply thereto by that reverend servant of Christ, Mr. John Ball, entituled, A tryall of the new church-way in New-England and in old wherin, beside a more full opening of sundry particulars concerning liturgies, power of the keys, matter of the visible church, &c., is more largely handled that controversie concerning the catholick, visible church : tending to cleare up the old-way of Christ in New-England churches / by Iohn Allin [and] Tho. Shepard ...	Allin, John, 1596-1671.; Shepard, Thomas, 1605-1649.	1648 (1648)	Wing A1036; ESTC R8238	175,377	216

proposition_n so_o they_o will_v much_o take_v off_o the_o edge_n of_o the_o reply_n for_o it_o will_v appear_v that_o all_o conformity_n of_o minister_n and_o people_n to_o any_o parcel_n of_o that_o book_n at_o such_o a_o season_n as_o this_o be_v be_v a_o far_o differ_v case_n from_o those_o that_o be_v put_v in_o some_o of_o the_o reply_n 1_o to_o the_o first_o reply_n then_o wherein_o you_o put_v it_o beyond_o imagination_n that_o such_o a_o practice_n shall_v be_v scandalous_a or_o offensive_a we_o know_v not_o what_o you_o have_v observe_v in_o some_o particular_a congregation_n near_o you_o but_o what_o ever_o have_v be_v the_o opinion_n of_o man_n former_o concern_v this_o practice_n yet_o you_o know_v that_o the_o book_n in_o general_n have_v be_v condemn_v of_o all_o godly_a reformer_n and_o the_o use_n of_o any_o part_n of_o it_o have_v be_v count_v burdensome_a to_o many_o for_o the_o reason_n name_v but_o of_o late_a time_n as_o the_o book_n and_o conformity_n thereto_o be_v urge_v more_o hot_o so_o the_o spirit_n of_o very_a many_o grow_v more_o zealous_a against_o it_o and_o begin_v to_o loathe_v it_o and_o to_o withdraw_v whole_o from_o it_o many_o very_a inquisitive_a about_o the_o lawfulness_n or_o unlawfulnesse_n of_o join_v with_o it_o at_o all_o and_o yourselves_o complain_v of_o the_o withdraw_n of_o many_o from_o join_v in_o the_o ordinance_n where_o it_o be_v use_v so_o that_o we_o see_v not_o but_o at_o least_o in_o some_o person_n and_o at_o some_o place_n and_o time_n it_o may_v probable_o be_v offensive_a and_o scandalous_a so_o to_o practice_v 2_o we_o look_v not_o only_o to_o the_o offence_n of_o those_o in_o your_o own_o congregation_n but_o to_o the_o imboldn_v and_o harden_v of_o papist_n in_o honour_v any_o part_n of_o their_o portuise_n above_o the_o form_n of_o other_o reform_a church_n abroad_o and_o you_o can_v be_v ignorant_a how_o many_o of_o the_o lord_n witness_n now_o asleep_a have_v testify_v of_o the_o offence_n and_o danger_n thereof_o reply_n 2_o you_o say_v if_o the_o book_n be_v a_o idolothyte_n yet_o latent_fw-la offence_n do_v not_o oblige_v answ_n the_o offence_n in_o this_o season_n and_o as_o all_o thing_n stand_v can_v be_v latent_fw-la complaint_n be_v make_v of_o the_o offence_n take_v by_o many_o and_o therefore_o it_o be_v evident_a reply_n 3_o the_o book_n so_o far_o as_o it_o be_v sound_a and_o good_a by_o your_o confession_n be_v no_o idolothyte_n nor_o take_v out_o of_o the_o mass_n book_n in_o such_o sense_n as_o you_o object_n but_o rather_o the_o mass_n and_o other_o prayer_n add_v to_o it_o popery_n be_v a_o scab_n cle●…ving_v to_o the_o church_n and_o many_o truth_n belong_v to_o the_o church_n as_o her_o proper_a legacy_n be_v steal_v and_o heap_v together_o in_o that_o den_n and_o why_o the_o true_a man_n may_v not_o challenge_v his_o good_n where_o ever_o he_o find_v they_o or_o the_o thief_n plead_v title_n to_o the_o true_a man_n good_n by_o prescription_n we_o know_v not_o answ_n first_o we_o judge_v the_o whole_a book_n a_o idolothyte_a and_o whence_o you_o gather_v that_o we_o confess_v the_o contrary_a of_o any_o part_n of_o it_o as_o it_o stand_v apart_o in_o relation_n to_o that_o whole_a we_o know_v not_o second_o that_o it_o be_v take_v out_o of_o the_o mass_n book_n be_v prove_v by_o the_o confession_n of_o king_n edward_n and_o other_o evidence_n be_v many_o but_o you_o say_v not_o in_o such_o sense_n as_o we_o object_n but_o rather_o è_fw-la contra_fw-la mass_n etc._n etc._n add_v to_o it_o etc._n etc._n but_o where_o to_o find_v such_o a_o legacy_n bequeath_v to_o the_o church_n in_o the_o testament_n of_o our_o lord_n jesus_n christ_n we_o can_v never_o yet_o see_v so_o that_o we_o rather_o fear_v all_o those_o form_n of_o prayer_n of_o marriage_n burial_n visitation_n of_o the_o sick_a confirmation_n etc._n etc._n be_v rather_o the_o copper_n counterfeit_a coin_n of_o a_o well_o grow_v antichrist_n whereby_o he_o cozen_v the_o church_n when_o he_o steal_v away_o the_o golden_a legacy_n of_o christ_n rather_o than_o any_o part_n of_o the_o true_a church_n legacy_n and_o therefore_o it_o have_v be_v more_o happy_a for_o the_o church_n that_o they_o have_v never_o challenge_v the_o same_o but_o let_v the_o thief_n prescription_n to_o have_v be_v a_o good_a plea_n to_o hold_v they_o still_o this_o further_a we_o add_v when_o we_o say_v it_o be_v take_v out_o of_o the_o mass-book_n we_o understand_v mass-book_n in_o a_o large_a sense_n as_o it_o be_v common_o take_v for_o to_o speak_v narrow_o it_o be_v collect_v out_o of_o three_o popish_a book_n the_o first_o part_n of_o public_a prayer_n exbreviario_fw-la the_o second_o part_n viz._n the_o order_n of_o administer_a sacrament_n matrimony_n visit_v the_o sick_a and_o burial_n è_fw-la rituali_fw-la 3._o the_o order_n of_o consecration_n in_o the_o supper_n the_o epistle_n and_o gospel_n and_o collect_v è_fw-la missali_fw-la as_o the_o form_n of_o consecration_n of_o bishop_n and_o priest_n be_v take_v è_fw-la pontificali_fw-la as_o the_o author_n of_o altar_n damasc_n show_v pag._n 612._o three_o because_o those_o word_n popery_n be_v a_o scab_n etc._n etc._n may_v be_v a_o seed_n of_o much_o evil_n a_o egg_n out_o of_o which_o a_o serpent_n may_v be_v hatch_v if_o man_n zealous_a of_o mouldy_a form_n may_v but_o have_v time_n again_o to_o set_v upon_o it_o if_o the_o wheel_n of_o these_o evil_a time_n through_o god_n judgement_n on_o this_o wanton_a age_n turn_v the_o prelate_n or_o other_o zelote_v for_o this_o liturgy_n uppermost_a we_o shall_v therefore_o crave_v liberty_n to_o examine_v this_o speech_n more_o narrow_o and_o because_o as_o it_o be_v say_v unumquodque_fw-la ex_fw-la suâ_fw-la origine_fw-la rectissime_fw-la judicatur_fw-la we_o shall_v trace_v the_o step_n of_o the_o first_o time_n and_o so_o downward_o to_o see_v what_o sound_a part_n of_o liturgy_n there_o be_v on_o which_o this_o scab_n be_v suppose_v to_o grow_v 1._o our_o bless_a saviour_n teach_v his_o disciple_n a_o bless_a form_n which_o though_o it_o may_v be_v lawful_o and_o comfortable_o use_v the_o rather_o not_o be_v of_o man_n but_o the_o lord_n compose_v yet_o it_o be_v evident_a he_o never_o appoint_v his_o people_n to_o use_v it_o as_o their_o only_a form_n and_o therefore_o the_o apostle_n in_o the_o primitive_a church_n in_o that_o heavenly_a prayer_n act_v 4._o do_v not_o attend_v to_o the_o word_n and_o form_n of_o this_o prayer_n though_o they_o may_v have_v this_o in_o their_o eye_n as_o the_o common_a rule_n and_o direction_n how_o to_o pour_v out_o their_o prayer_n to_o god_n for_o particular_a thing_n which_o may_v be_v a_o everlasting_a witness_n against_o their_o usurpation_n that_o will_v limit_v the_o church_n to_o their_o form_n which_o the_o lord_n christ_n will_v not_o do_v to_o his_o own_o 2._o in_o the_o first_o 300._o year_n after_o christ_n we_o read_v of_o few_o form_n that_o the_o church_n use_v and_o those_o rather_o short_a ejaculation_n then_o set_v form_n but_o contrary_o we_o read_v frequent_o of_o the_o exercise_n of_o their_o gift_n in_o prayer_n they_o pray_v sine_fw-la monitore_fw-la quia_fw-la de_fw-la pectore_fw-la say_v tertullian_n 30._o i._n e._n they_o pray_v without_o a_o promptour_n because_o from_o the_o heart_n which_o as_o zephyrus_n observe_v be_v in_o opposition_n to_o the_o prompt_a form_n then_o in_o use_n among_o the_o pagan_n we_o read_v also_o what_o they_o pray_v for_o viz._n pro_fw-la inimicis_fw-la pro_fw-la imperatoribus_fw-la pro_fw-la statu_fw-la seculi_fw-la pro_fw-la morà_fw-la finis_fw-la etc._n etc._n but_o of_o any_o set_a form_n we_o read_v not_o their_o persecution_n and_o day_n of_o affliction_n preserve_v they_o from_o formality_n in_o prayer_n and_o teach_v they_o how_o to_o find_v their_o heart_n and_o knee_n and_o tongue_n to_o pour_v out_o their_o soul_n to_o god_n while_o under_o the_o altar_n they_o be_v pour_v out_o their_o blood_n 3._o but_o after_o the_o church_n have_v enjoy_v peace_n for_o some_o space_n of_o time_n wherein_o security_n usual_o make_v insensible_a and_o insens●…blenesse_n formal_a then_o indeed_o we_o read_v of_o set_n and_o impose_v form_n which_o the_o rather_o prevail_v in_o regard_n of_o the_o gross_a and_o palpable_a ignorance_n of_o a_o blind_a ministry_n under_o a_o more_o learned_a prelacy_n and_o therefore_o it_o be_v well_o observe_v by_o chemnitius_n that_o the_o three_o council_n of_o carthage_n decree_v this_o ut_fw-la nemo_fw-la in_o precibus_fw-la etc._n etc._n viz._n that_o no_o minister_n in_o his_o prayer_n either_o name_n the_o father_n for_o the_o son_n or_o the_o son_n for_o the_o father_n but_o when_o he_o come_v to_o the_o altar_n to_o direct_v his_o prayer_n always_o to_o god_n the_o father_n and_o that_o no_o man_n use_v his_o own_o form_n

the_o church_n in_o neglect_v they_o to_o go_v immediate_o to_o the_o classis_fw-la and_o yet_o some_o of_o our_o brethren_n at_o the_o request_n of_o tender_a conscience_n may_v declare_v their_o judgement_n when_o no_o rule_n call_v they_o to_o write_v to_o their_o pastor_n which_o perhaps_o be_v bitter_a persecutor_n or_o if_o better_o yet_o such_o as_o they_o have_v no_o knowledge_n of_o and_o if_o any_o by_o such_o write_n do_v abstain_v from_o the_o sacrament_n for_o such_o corruption_n as_o their_o conscience_n will_v be_v defile_v with_o no_o hindrance_n from_o we_o be_v in_o the_o way_n but_o that_o you_o may_v call_v they_o to_o account_v before_o the_o church_n and_o convince_v and_o censure_v they_o if_o there_o be_v just_a cause_n which_o be_v the_o objection_n against_o mr._n p._n in_o fly_v present_o to_o the_o classis_fw-la chap._n iii_o 2_o position_n that_o it_o be_v not_o lawful_a to_o join_v in_o prayer_n or_o receive_v the_o sacrament_n where_o a_o stint_a liturgy_n be_v use_v or_o as_o we_o conceive_v your_o meaning_n to_o be_v in_o this_o as_o in_o the_o former_a etc._n etc._n viz._n where_o and_o when_o that_o stint_a liturgy_n be_v use_v reply_n if_o we_o mistake_v not_o your_o judgement_n and_o practice_n both_o you_o have_v bear_v witness_n against_o both_o that_o you_o call_v the_o rigid_a separation_n and_o this_o more_o moderate_a also_o and_o we_o humble_o wish_v that_o the_o moderate_a do_v not_o degenerate_a into_o the_o rigid_a ere_o long_o it_o be_v very_o strange_a if_o they_o take_v not_o great_a encouragement_n upon_o your_o ground_n answ_n if_o you_o will_v needs_o account_v not_o join_v in_o that_o stint_v impose_v liturgy_n to_o be_v a_o moderate_a separation_n we_o must_v confess_v we_o have_v witness_v against_o such_o separation_n yea_o not_o only_o conform_v to_o that_o corrupt_a worship_n but_o also_o to_o divers_a of_o the_o ceremony_n thereof_o some_o of_o we_o with_o shame_n before_o the_o lord_n may_v confess_v it_o but_o we_o desire_v that_o may_v be_v no_o prejudice_n to_o the_o truth_n since_o discover_v to_o we_o but_o we_o have_v ever_o conceive_v that_o the_o separation_n witness_v against_o both_o by_o yourselves_o and_o we_o have_v be_v such_o as_o to_o separate_v from_o the_o church_n of_o england_n as_o no_o true_a church_n the_o ministry_n as_o no_o true_a ministry_n their_o separation_n from_o corruption_n in_o doctrine_n and_o worship_n their_o endeavour_n to_o enjoy_v all_o the_o ordinance_n of_o the_o lord_n jesus_n in_o purity_n if_o we_o be_v not_o mistake_v your_o judgement_n and_o practice_n with_o we_o have_v always_o approve_v and_o the_o question_n now_o in_o hand_n be_v not_o about_o a_o new_a kind_n of_o separation_n more_o moderate_a from_o the_o church_n and_o ministry_n of_o england_n but_o whether_o the_o liturgy_n of_o england_n be_v not_o indeed_o one_o of_o those_o corruption_n in_o worship_n which_o you_o and_o we_o have_v need_n reject_v as_o well_o as_o the_o ceremony_n and_o no_o long_o conform_v to_o the_o same_o and_o we_o hearty_o wish_v that_o the_o grow_a endeavour_n of_o the_o godly_a after_o more_o purity_n of_o worship_n and_o to_o be_v purge_v from_o all_o the_o pollution_n of_o the_o man_n of_o sin_n be_v not_o too_o rash_o brand_v with_o the_o odium_fw-la of_o separation_n and_o breach_n of_o peace_n and_o unity_n of_o the_o church_n as_o for_o degenerate_v into_o the_o rigid_a separation_n we_o think_v you_o need_v not_o fear_v it_o upon_o our_o principle_n no_o more_o then_o upon_o the_o common_a ground_n of_o nonconformist_n and_o you_o know_v what_o they_o infer_v upon_o those_o principle_n now_o just_o it_o concern_v you_o to_o consider_v as_o well_o as_o 〈◊〉_d but_o as_o it_o be_v true_o observe_v in_o england_n it_o be_v the_o justification_n and_o press_v of_o ceremony_n and_o other_o corruption_n that_o drive_v many_o to_o separation_n not_o the_o endeavour_n of_o further_a reformation_n so_o you_o may_v fear_v the_o too_o too_o much_o conformity_n of_o minister_n to_o humane_a imposition_n and_o justification_n of_o the_o liturgy_n etc._n etc._n have_v and_o will_v more_o dangerous_o alienate_v godly_a mind_n from_o your_o church_n and_o ministry_n and_o so_o drive_v to_o separation_n then_o all_o the_o principle_n and_o progress_n of_o the_o godly_a in_o way_n of_o reformation_n and_o we_o shall_v refer_v it_o to_o the_o judicious_a and_o common_a experience_n whether_o the_o discovery_n of_o the_o corrupt_a worship_n in_o the_o liturgy_n or_o contrary_a conformity_n to_o it_o be_v the_o great_a block_n of_o offence_n and_o strengthen_v the_o hand_n of_o the_o separatist_n most_o which_o yet_o you_o after_o object_n unto_o we_o we_o suppose_v the_o worthy_n of_o this_o renown_a parliament_n together_o with_o those_o of_o the_o reverend_a assembly_n will_v not_o so_o soon_o have_v remove_v the_o whole_a frame_n and_o fabric_n of_o this_o book_n nor_o whole_o stop_v up_o this_o pit_n if_o build_v of_o battlement_n about_o it_o and_o keep_v watchman_n near_o it_o to_o bid_v passenger_n take_v heed_n have_v be_v the_o ready_a way_n to_o cure_v separation_n nor_o do_v we_o think_v that_o this_o reverend_a man_n of_o god_n will_v have_v be_v in_o more_o jealousy_n and_o fear_n of_o we_o if_o he_o have_v consider_v how_o tender_o we_o return_v our_o answer_n to_o the_o question_n then_o of_o those_o faithful_a witness_n in_o scotland_n who_o separate_v their_o life_n into_o the_o hand_n of_o death_n rather_o than_o communicate_v in_o the_o use_n of_o this_o book_n and_o yet_o we_o think_v they_o deserve_v a_o better_a place_n then_o to_o be_v rank_v so_o near_o to_o the_o rigid_a separation_n notwithstanding_o for_o ourselves_o we_o be_v hearty_o thankful_a for_o what_o he_o humble_o wish_v and_o for_o his_o jealousy_n over_o we_o so_o far_o as_o it_o be_v godly_a but_o so_o far_o as_o such_o wish_n cast_v a_o cloud_n of_o evil_a suspicion_n over_o we_o in_o the_o heart_n of_o other_o as_o if_o we_o be_v go_v fast_a than_o we_o know_v where_o to_o stay_v we_o wish_v humble_o such_o word_n have_v be_v spare_v till_o some_o other_o time_n concern_v this_o distinction_n a_o letter_n of_o this_o subject_n be_v cite_v print_v without_o the_o author_n knowledge_n that_o put_v a_o difference_n indeed_o between_o the_o reason_n of_o the_o separatist_n proper_a to_o they_o qua_fw-la tale_n and_o other_o reason_n use_v by_o himself_o common_a to_o other_o studious_a of_o reformation_n to_o which_o we_o answer_v 1_o that_o letter_n acknowledge_v no_o such_o distinction_n of_o separation_n rigid_a and_o moderate_a only_o if_o you_o will_v a_o separation_n from_o church_n and_o separation_n from_o the_o sin_n and_o corruption_n of_o church_n which_o latter_a be_v all_o we_o profess_v 2_o those_o reason_n which_o the_o letter_n ascribe_v to_o they_o qua_fw-la t●…les_fw-la will_v we_o suppose_v be_v find_v in_o their_o book_n thus_o far_o that_o the_o prayer_n preach_n sacrament_n etc._n etc._n be_v unlawful_a because_o offer_v in_o a_o false_a church_n by_o a_o false_a ministry_n for_o the_o subject_n of_o antichrist_n kingdom_n that_o there_o shall_v be_v no_o separatist_n in_o the_o world_n because_o none_o it_o be_v say_v none_o plead_v against_o the_o book_n of_o common●…prayer_n as_o unlawful_a because_o offer_v up_o in_o a_o false_a church_n be_v strange_a to_o we_o that_o this_o learned_a author_n shall_v not_o read_v or_o observe_v the_o same_o exceed_v frequent_o in_o the_o separatist_n write_n take_v but_o a_o taste_n in_o the_o first_o page_n of_o mr._n smith_n against_o bernard_n in_o his_o parallel_n censure_n and_o observation_n his_o word_n pag._n 9_o be_v these_o he_o will_v prove_v that_o a_o erroneous_a constitution_n of_o a_o church_n be_v a_o real_a idol_n and_o the_o prayer_n they_o offer_v with_o the_o prayer_n of_o the_o wicked_a come_v from_o that_o false_a constitution_n be_v taint_v with_o the_o idolatry_n of_o that_o constitution_n and_o pag._n 10._o it_o be_v idolatry_n to_o offer_v up_o service_n to_o god_n in_o a_o church_n of_o a_o false_a constitution_n and_o pag._n 13._o tell_v i_o mr._n bernard_n can_v there_o be_v a_o true_a ministry_n true_a baptism_n true_a faith_n true_a prayer_n true_a preach_v and_o administer_a the_o supper_n true_a excommunication_n in_o a_o church_n which_o be_v false_o constitute_v do_v the_o lord_n accept_v the_o sacrifice_n of_o the_o church_n constitute_v by_o jeroboam_n so_o page_n 14._o a_o church_n false_o constitute_v be_v not_o accept_v of_o god_n neither_o be_v their_o action_n ecclesiastical_a as_o prayer_n preach_v etc._n etc._n acceptable_a in_o the_o sight_n of_o god_n and_o again_o a_o false_a ministry_n worship_n government_n may_v be_v in_o a_o true_a church_n through_o ignorance_n and_o the_o like_a but_o a_o true_a ministry_n worship_n government_n can_v possible_o be_v in_o a_o

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therefore_o such_o may_v be_v use_v as_o he_o have_v leave_v yet_o the_o lord_n have_v not_o impose_v some_o of_o these_o at_o least_o to_o be_v use_v always_o and_o only_o in_o his_o church_n much_o less_o do_v he_o allow_v any_o man_n to_o impose_v their_o own_o form_n upon_o his_o church_n or_o conform_v to_o such_o as_o be_v tyrannous_o impose_v reply_n three_o advert_v we_o have_v not_o call_v you_o at_o this_o time_n to_o witness_v for_o or_o against_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o common-prayer-book_n this_o you_o fall_v upon_o by_o strain_v the_o sense_n of_o our_o demand_n answ_n we_o have_v speak_v to_o this_o before_o and_o we_o think_v whatsoever_o your_o intent_n and_o desire_n be_v yet_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o thing_n and_o the_o case_n itself_o give_v we_o a_o just_a call_v to_o testify_v against_o it_o especial_o see_v the_o corruption_n then_o increase_v in_o england_n and_o the_o imposition_n be_v more_o rigid_a and_o violent_a reply_n the_o reason_n you_o bring_v against_o the_o communion-booke_n we_o can_v approve_v they_o all_o the_o exception_n against_o it_o we_o know_v but_o to_o esteem_v the_o whole_a for_o some_o corruption_n find_v therein_o a_o monument_n of_o idolatry_n that_o we_o have_v not_o learned_a answ_n the_o answer_n call_v it_o not_o a_o monument_n of_o idolatry_n for_o some_o corruption_n only_o find_v in_o it_o though_o the_o corruption_n in_o matter_n and_o manner_n be_v object_v as_o the_o first_o reason_n why_o we_o use_v it_o not_o but_o be_v never_o command_v of_o god_n great_o abuse_v unto_o idolatry_n and_o superstition_n and_o of_o no_o necessary_a use_n the_o same_o that_o be_v in_o popery_n for_o substance_n which_o be_v the_o usual_a argument_n for_o abolish_n image_n ceremony_n and_o all_o monument_n of_o idolatry_n and_o we_o marvel_v how_o any_o

wish_v utinam_fw-la tale_n hodie_fw-la à_fw-la ministerio_fw-la a●…verentu●…_n four_o because_o the_o lord_n will_v cast_v off_o their_o child_n from_o be_v his_o for_o this_o sin_n as_o calvin_n also_o note_n upon_o the_o place_n the_o promise_n of_o show_v mercy_n to_o a_o 1000_o generation_n be_v chief_o annex_v to_o the_o observer_n of_o the_o second_o command_n and_o the_o institute_v mean_n of_o worship_n which_o those_o priest_n never_o be_v reply_n on_o the_o contrary_a if_o you_o will_v extend_v this_o text_n to_o all_o unworthy_a minister_n of_o what_o sort_n soever_o who_o the_o word_n of_o god_n condemn_v as_o not_o approve_a minister_n of_o god_n etc._n etc._n answ_n we_o intend_v no_o other_o sort_n then_o such_o as_o we_o have_v in_o hand_n the_o unable_a and_o ungodly_a idol_n priest_n of_o england_n and_o therefore_o this_o discourse_n concern_v we_o not_o for_o we_o free_o confess_v that_o it_o be_v lawful_a in_o divers_a case_n at_o least_o for_o a_o time_n to_o 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the_o congregation_n because_o they_o be_v read_v by_o a_o ungodly_a minister_n we_o deny_v that_o we_o teach_v or_o hold_v such_o separation_n because_o read_v by_o a_o ungodly_a minister_n as_o be_v sufficient_o show_v before_o but_o what_o we_o speak_v be_v against_o conformity_n to_o and_o communion_n with_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o liturgy_n especial_o use_v by_o a_o unable_a as_o well_o as_o ungodly_a minister_n and_o therefore_o the_o argument_n mention_v will_v hold_v against_o our_o proposition_n just_a as_o the_o accusation_n and_o imputation_n of_o donatism_n puritanisme_n anabaptism_n which_o the_o prelate_n cast_v upon_o all_o nonconformist_n and_o man_n studious_a of_o reformation_n will_v hold_v and_o fasten_v upon_o they_o which_o be_v nothing_o at_o all_o reply_n the_o second_o proposition_n where_o the_o whole_a liturgy_n be_v use_v though_o by_o a_o able_a and_o godly_a minister_n it_o be_v not_o lawful_a to_o join_v in_o prayer_n in_o that_o case_n we_o can_v be_v of_o your_o judgement_n herein_o for_o in_o the_o time_n of_o the_o prophet_n and_o our_o saviour_n christ_n as_o great_a abuse_n no_o question_n be_v find_v etc._n etc._n but_o they_o never_o teach_v people_n to_o separate_v from_o the_o holy_a thing_n of_o god_n answ_n first_o we_o must_v still_o mind_v the_o reader_n of_o the_o true_a and_o full_a state_n of_o the_o question_n which_o in_o our_o answer_n be_v of_o join_v in_o prayer_n with_o and_o when_o that_o whole_a liturgy_n be_v use_v and_o he_o that_o join_v with_o that_o whole_a liturgy_n must_v needs_o be_v suppose_v to_o have_v actual_a communion_n with_o all_o the_o corruption_n thereof_o what_o ever_o they_o be_v and_o therefore_o though_o this_o proposition_n reach_v to_o the_o practice_n of_o able_a and_o godly_a minister_n yet_o let_v none_o think_v we_o plead_v herein_o separation_n from_o their_o ministry_n but_o only_o that_o people_n may_v not_o conform_v with_o they_o to_o any_o corruption_n in_o worship_n and_o by_o this_o proposition_n also_o the_o author_n may_v easy_o have_v see_v that_o we_o deny_v the_o other_o which_o be_v weave_v in_o with_o this_o not_o because_o of_o the_o ungodliness_n of_o the_o minister_n alone_o as_o he_o carry_v his_o dispute_n but_o chief_o in_o respect_n of_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o worship_n together_o with_o the_o unlawfulnesse_n of_o such_o a_o ministry_n that_o be_v both_o unable_a and_o ungodly_a second_o concern_v the_o argument_n it_o run_v as_o full_a for_o conformity_n to_o all_o the_o corrupt_a ceremony_n of_o the_o book_n as_o the_o corrupt_a worship_n itself_o therein_o as_o be_v say_v before_o clear_v the_o one_o viz._n non-conformitie_n to_o ceremony_n show_v a_o reason_n why_o you_o will_v separate_v from_o the_o sacrament_n because_o you_o will_v not_o kneel_v according_a to_o the_o book_n and_o you_o answer_v your_o argument_n here_o allege_v against_o we_o but_o the_o reply_n proceed_v reply_n and_o if_o presence_n at_o form_n of_o prayer_n be_v not_o lawful_a by_o reason_n of_o the_o corruption_n allege_v there_o can_v be_v no_o visible_a society_n name_v since_o 200._o year_n after_o christ_n or_o thereabouts_o wherein_o a_o christian_a may_v lawful_o join_v in_o prayer_n read_v the_o scripture_n hear_v the_o word_n or_o participation_n of_o the_o sacrament_n their_o doctrine_n prayer_n right_n be_v less_o pure_a than_o we_o but_o no_o man_n we_o hope_v will_v be_v so_o bold_a as_o to_o affirm_v the_o state_n of_o the_o church_n within_o 200._o year_n after_o christ_n to_o be_v so_o miserable_o decay_v that_o the_o faithful_a can_v not_o without_o sin_n hold_v communion_n with_o they_o in_o the_o foresay_a ordinance_n of_o god_n answ_n first_o this_o argument_n hold_v as_o strong_o for_o conformity_n to_o the_o ceremony_n as_o to_o the_o whole_a book_n of_o common_a prayer_n as_o be_v say_v before_o second_o this_o be_v a_o dangerous_a kind_n of_o reason_v from_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o faithful_a in_o corrupt_a time_n of_o the_o church_n especial_o when_o they_o be_v decline_v and_o grow_a cloud_n of_o darkness_n and_o superstition_n overspread_v the_o church_n it_o be_v no_o breach_n of_o charity_n to_o think_v that_o through_o the_o iniquity_n of_o the_o time_n the_o godly_a live_v in_o many_o evil_n through_o ignorance_n and_o weakness_n which_o after_o light_n be_v come_v into_o the_o church_n we_o ought_v to_o abandon_v whole_o these_o be_v time_n of_o light_n and_o of_o the_o consumption_n of_o antichrist_n and_o time_n for_o we_o to_o abolish_v his_o liturgy_n and_o corrupt_a form_n of_o worship_n as_o well_o as_o image_n ceremony_n etc._n etc._n who_o do_v not_o pity_v the_o weakness_n of_o godly_a bilny_n and_o other_o that_o see_v some_o gross_a corruption_n be_v yet_o so_o devout_o obedient_a to_o the_o church_n as_o they_o call_v it_o in_o many_o gross_a superstition_n and_o the_o like_a may_v be_v say_v of_o those_o former_a time_n and_o we_o see_v not_o but_o this_o reason_n will_v go_v far_o in_o justification_n of_o communion_n with_o many_o false_a worship_n of_o antichrist_n that_o be_v not_o gross_o idolatrous_a three_o it_o be_v a_o great_a charge_n upon_o those_o time_n to_o say_v no_o visible_a society_n throughout_o the_o world_n can_v be_v name_v since_o 200._o year_n after_o christ_n that_o be_v not_o less_o pure_a than_o england_n in_o doctrine_n rite_n etc._n etc._n it_o may_v be_v that_o as_o general_o church_n be_v corrupt_a so_o they_o contemn_v and_o censure_v such_o as_o profess_v more_o purity_n but_o that_o there_o be_v some_o visible_a assembly_n more_o pure_a may_v be_v conceive_v by_o that_o testimony_n give_v to_o aerius_n and_o many_o orthodox_n christian_n with_o he_o though_o condemn_v for_o a_o heretic_n in_o that_o which_o we_o all_o now_o hold_v to_o be_v a_o undoubted_a truth_n also_o after_o the_o waldenses_n cast_v off_o the_o pope_n and_o his_o will_n

conclusion_n as_o for_o mr._n robinson_n though_o we_o do_v not_o approve_v the_o sentence_n you_o cite_v out_o of_o he_o yet_o we_o doubt_v whether_o you_o do_v not_o go_v beyond_o his_o sense_n &_o meaning_n but_o according_a to_o our_o sense_n of_o this_o position_n before_o lay_v down_o neither_o this_o absurdity_n of_o lordship_n over_o the_o officer_n nor_o any_o other_o that_o be_v instance_a in_o under_o this_o reason_n do_v at_o all_o follow_v and_o they_o may_v be_v as_o strong_o urge_v against_o the_o presbytery_n class_n synod_n catholic_n church_n or_o any_o subject_n of_o the_o key_n that_o can_v be_v name_v and_o the_o objection_n viz._n that_o god_n will_v have_v the_o church_n choose_v officer_n to_o execute_v the_o power_n commit_v to_o she_o be_v so_o answer_v in_o the_o same_o page_n as_o will_v serve_v we_o as_o well_o as_o you_o viz._n god_n will_v have_v she_o elect_a officer_n of_o his_o designment_n that_o be_v such_o as_o the_o rule_n direct_v she_o to_o choose_v to_o do_v his_o work_n according_a to_o that_o power_n which_o he_o have_v give_v they_o and_o by_o his_o direction_n and_o then_o they_o be_v god_n servant_n and_o not_o the_o church_n and_o receive_v that_o charge_n and_o function_n immediate_o from_o god_n and_o not_o from_o the_o people_n we_o mean_v no_o otherwise_o then_o by_o that_o outward_a call_v instrumental_o apply_v that_o office_n unto_o they_o and_o in_o this_o sense_n we_o close_o with_o you_o herein_o and_o indeed_o this_o power_n of_o elect_a officer_n do_v not_o ever_o include_v authority_n over_o they_o who_o they_o choose_v but_o rather_o willing_a subjection_n unto_o they_o and_o set_v they_o up_o to_o rule_v as_o when_o a_o woman_n choose_v a_o husband_n she_o make_v he_o her_o husband_n in_o a_o sort_n but_o withal_o her_o head_n and_o ruler_n so_o when_o a_o people_n choose_v a_o major_n etc._n etc._n answ_n four_o if_o the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n be_v give_v first_o and_o immediate_o to_o the_o community_n of_o the_o faithful_a what_o reason_n can_v be_v allege_v why_o in_o defect_n of_o officer_n the_o church_n may_v not_o rule_v feed_v bind_v loose_a preach_v and_o administer_v sacrament_n or_o if_o any_o fail_v in_o office_n why_o she_o may_v not_o supply_v that_o want_n by_o her_o power_n for_o the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n do_v contain_v both_o authority_n and_o exercise_n power_n be_v give_v that_o it_o may_v be_v exercise_v as_o it_o be_v vouchsafe_v but_o the_o church_n can_v exercise_v these_o act_n of_o rule_n ergo._fw-la answ_n the_o reason_n be_v because_o the_o church_n have_v not_o receive_v some_o of_o the_o key_n formal_o but_o only_o virtual_o and_o as_o be_v say_v out_o of_o parker_n not_o as_o a_o gift_n absolute_a but_o conditional_a that_o it_o may_v be_v communicate_v to_o the_o officer_n such_o power_n as_o the_o body_n of_o the_o church_n have_v receive_v formal_o she_o may_v and_o do_v exercise_v as_o a_o power_n of_o choose_v officer_n a_o power_n of_o judge_v in_o censure_n 1_o cor._n 5.12_o and_o the_o like_a the_o power_n of_o preach_v proper_o so_o call_v &_o dispense_n sacrament_n etc._n etc._n be_v act_n of_o authority_n the_o church_n have_v they_o only_o virtual_o and_o therefore_o must_v choose_v officer_n to_o who_o christ_n her_o lord_n have_v give_v authority_n in_o the_o church_n a_o corporation_n that_o by_o patent_n from_o the_o king_n have_v many_o privilege_n the_o power_n be_v give_v to_o the_o body_n incorporate_v and_o so_o it_o be_v the_o first_o subject_n of_o it_o yet_o many_o act_n can_v be_v put_v forth_o but_o by_o officer_n due_o choose_v and_o so_o here_o reply_n for_o these_o reason_n not_o to_o insist_v on_o any_o more_o we_o judge_v the_o community_n of_o the_o faithful_a not_o to_o be_v the_o immediate_a receptacle_n of_o ecclesiastical_a authority_n and_o so_o the_o power_n of_o excommunication_n not_o to_o belong_v unto_o they_o answ_n by_o this_o conclusion_n it_o appear_v that_o how_o ever_o the_o author_n begin_v profess_o against_o we_o as_o separatist_n in_o this_o point_n yet_o he_o follow_v the_o cause_n against_o mr._n parker_n with_o who_o he_o seem_v to_o be_v friend_n second_o the_o power_n of_o excommunication_n may_v belong_v to_o the_o church_n or_o community_n in_o respect_n of_o a_o fraternal_a power_n of_o judge_v though_o official_a authority_n be_v not_o formal_o give_v to_o the_o church_n but_o to_o the_o officer_n reply_n if_o consent_n of_o church_n be_v ask_v in_o this_o point_n to_o omit_v other_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n speak_v full_o and_o express_o for_o we_o in_o the_o second_o book_n of_o discip_n cap._n 1._o the_o church_n as_o it_o be_v take_v for_o they_o that_o exercise_v spiritual_a function_n in_o the_o congregation_n of_o they_o that_o profess_v the_o truth_n have_v a_o certain_a power_n grant_v of_o god_n according_a to_o which_o it_o use_v a_o proper_a jurisdiction_n etc._n etc._n beza_n de_fw-fr presb._n pag._n 60._o helu._n confess_v cap._n 18._o belgic_a etc._n etc._n answ_n if_o consent_n of_o the_o learned_a godly_a and_o zealous_a reformer_n be_v ask_v a_o cloud_n of_o witness_n may_v be_v produce_v that_o hold_v the_o church_n the_o first_o subject_n of_o the_o key_n as_o fulke_n whitaker_n parker_n peter_n martyr_n musculus_fw-la and_o other_o beside_o many_o of_o the_o ancient_a divine_n and_o counsel_n gerson_n and_o the_o parisian_a divine_v well_o know_v to_o the_o learned_a concern_v quotation_n of_o the_o scottish_a discipline_n the_o first_o word_n lie_v so_o weak_a a_o foundation_n as_o leave_v the_o build_n ready_a to_o fall_v in_o these_o word_n the_o church_n as_o it_o be_v take_v for_o they_o that_o exercise_v spiritual_a function_n have_v a_o certain_a power_n etc._n etc._n but_o where_o be_v the_o church_n so_o take_v not_o in_o all_o the_o new_a testament_n that_o can_v be_v prove_v with_o any_o solid_a reason_n notwithstanding_o all_o wrestle_a of_o man_n to_o find_v it_o out_o but_o general_o for_o the_o company_n of_o the_o faithful_a either_o the_o universal_a or_o particular_a church_n and_o this_o sometime_o consider_v with_o her_o officer_n and_o divers_a time_n as_o distinguish_v from_o they_o as_o act_n 14.23_o and_o 20.13.28_o jam._n 5.14_o revel_v 2.1.8.12_o etc._n etc._n but_o never_o contra_fw-la for_o the_o officer_n distinguish_v from_o the_o church_n or_o body_n of_o the_o congregation_n and_o therefore_o if_o the_o key_n be_v give_v to_o the_o church_n and_o the_o plea_n of_o the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n to_o be_v give_v immediate_o to_o the_o officer_n be_v in_o and_o under_o the_o name_n of_o the_o church_n it_o will_v fall_v to_o the_o church_n of_o the_o faithful_a if_o the_o scripture_n may_v judge_v indeed_o among_o the_o papist_n and_o so_o the_o prelate_n the_o clergy_n have_v long_o get_v and_o hold_v possession_n of_o the_o name_n of_o the_o church_n but_o the_o testament_n of_o christ_n will_v not_o bear_v this_o foundation_n but_o we_o will_v not_o trouble_v the_o reader_n far_o about_o humane_a testimony_n chap._n xv._n position_n 6._o that_o none_o be_v to_o be_v admit_v member_n but_o they_o must_v promise_v not_o to_o depart_v or_o remove_v unless_o the_o congregation_n will_v give_v leave_n reply_n it_o be_v one_o thing_n abrupt_o to_o break_v away_o when_o and_o whither_o they_o please_v and_o forsake_v fellowship_n another_o thing_n not_o to_o depart_v or_o remove_v habitation_n unless_o the_o congregation_n will_v give_v leave_n also_o it_o be_v one_o thing_n mutual_o to_o compound_v and_o agree_v not_o to_o depart_v from_o each_o other_o without_o consent_n and_o approbation_n and_o other_o to_o require_v a_o promise_n of_o all_o that_o be_v admit_v into_o society_n that_o they_o shall_v not_o depart_v without_o the_o church_n allowance_n if_o such_o a_o promise_n be_v require_v of_o all_o member_n to_o be_v admit_v we_o can_v discern_v upon_o what_o ground_n your_o practice_n be_v warrant_v answ_n we_o be_v still_o enforce_v to_o clear_v our_o answer_n from_o mistake_n for_o it_o seem_v the_o answer_n leave_v it_o doubtful_a whether_o we_o do_v not_o hold_v the_o position_n affirmative_o and_o in_o practice_n require_v such_o a_o promise_n as_o a_o part_n of_o our_o church_n covenant_n of_o all_o that_o be_v admit_v and_o therefore_o to_o clear_v the_o case_n more_o full_o we_o shall_v first_o mind_v the_o reader_n with_o the_o true_a meaning_n of_o the_o answer_n and_o then_o add_v what_o be_v needful_a to_o take_v away_o the_o scruple_n and_o first_o the_o answer_n say_v that_o we_o judge_v it_o expedient_a and_o most_o according_a to_o rule_v that_o brethren_n shall_v not_o forsake_v fellowship_n etc._n etc._n but_o in_o removall_n approve_v themselves_o etc._n etc._n now_o this_o be_v far_o short_a of_o what_o the_o position_n affirm_v for_o first_o that_o none_o