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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88948	A reply to Mr. Rutherfurd, or A defence of the answer to Reverend Mr. Herles booke against the independency of churches. VVherein such objections and answers, as are returned to sundry passages in the said answer by Mr. Samuel Rutherfurd, a godly and learned brother of the Church of Scotland, in his boke entituled The due right of Presbyters, are examined and removed, and the answer justified and cleared. / By Richard Macher [sic] teacher to the church at Dorchester in New England. 1646.	Mather, Richard, 1596-1669.	1647 (1647)	Wing M1275; Thomason E386_9; ESTC R201478	144,474	133

doth acknowledge it followeth unavoidably thereupon that all Congregationall Churches such as have neighbours and such as have none may exercise such entirenesse of Iurisdiction sith the essence of a Church doth agree unto them all Vnlesse he will deny the essence of a Church to a Congregation which hath neighbours which hee freely yeeldeth to a Congregation which is alone he must grant entirenesse of Iurisdiction unto them both because he grants it to the one upon this reason that the essence of a Church doth agree thereunto which reason if it agree to both how can i● be avoided but entirenesse of Iurisdiction must be in both And how can it be affirmed or imagined that a Congregation having the essence of a Church afore and have neighbours should lose this essence of a Church when neighbours are added to it A family having the essence of a family now it is alone doth not lose this essence by meanes of other families added Nor doth a City that is such as it is alone lose the essence of a City by the accesse of other Cities and the same might be said of a Corporation a Province a Kingdome or any other society whatsoever And that it should be otherwise with a Congregationall Church that it should lose the essence of a Church as other neighbours Churches do arise doth seeme very strange and unreasonable And let the essence of a Church be still retayned by such a Congregation as I conceive it must and then intirenesse of Iurisdiction must not be denyed to such a Congregation sith it doth flow connaturally from every Church to which the essence of a Church doth agree If there bee no more consociated with that Church that is by accident and an extraordinary exigence of Gods Providence As a Master of a family is to educate his children in the feare of God but if God take all his children from him by death he doth not transgresse the ordinary rule of educating his children in the feare of God as he hath none Answ If this comparison doe suit the present purpose and case in hand then this Master of a family is a Congregation and these his children are the members of other Congregations And so as a Master of a family needs not to educate his children in Gods feare when they are all taken from him by death so a Congregation needs not to governe the members of other Congregation as there are no other Congregation extant but it selfe is left alone in an Iland In which kind of arguing sundry things may be excepted against As fir●● of all that there should be such power in a Congregation as in a Master of a family over his own children which needs a good deale of proofe afore it may be yeelded in as much as the power of the one is plainly and plentifully taught in the Scripture as Eph. 4. 6. Col. 3. Deut. 6. 7. Deut. 21. And many other places But I desire one cleere place of Scripture in all the Book of God either old Testament or new to shew the like power in a Congregationall Church over the members of other Churches Againe when a Master of a family hath all his children taken from him by death he hath then no children of his own to governe but wants a Congregationall Church is left alone in an Iland the Presbytery of that Congregation is left alone but have still the members of that Congregation whom they may and ought to guide and governe in the feare of God which is another particular wherein the comparison failes But though the similitude as Mr. Rutherford hath laid it down doth not confirme his purpose yet I conceive it may be so framed and applyed as that it may well serve for the weekning thereof thus A Master of a family having when that family is alone entire power to governe his family in the feare of God when other families do arise that become neighbours neere adjoyning he is not by this meanes deprived of the power which he had before but still retaines the same entire and compleate as formerly it was even so the Presbytery of a Congregationall Church having when that Congregation is alone entire power of Iurisdiction over its own members is not when neighbour Congregation do arise deprived by this meanes of the power which it had before but still retaines the same entire as formerly it was Againe though when God takes away a mans children by death he is no longer bound to educate and governe those children in the feare of God yet as long as his children live with him in his family it is not the sitting down of other families neere by him that can take away this power from him or discharge him of this duty even so though when members of a Congregation be taken away by death or otherwise the Congregation or its Presbytery doth no longer stand charged or bound with the oversight and government of such members yet as long as they live in the Congregation it is not the arising of other Congregations neere to them that can free them from the power wherewith they were invested nor from the duty wherewith they were formerly charged towards such members Thus the comparison runs even and we see our Brothers cause is not a little disadvantaged thereby But as he hath laid it down it doth so apparantly faile that I do not perceive how it can afford him any helpe at all This argument supposeth that the Congregation hath no power of Excommunication at all either compleat or incompleate as the Midwife hath no power to Baptize either compleate or incompleate Answ Suppose a Congregation have an incompleate power when they have neighbours how shall it appeare that when they are alone their power is now compleat Or how will it be avoided but by the like reason one Elder alone may Excommunicate in case there be no other Elders to joyne with him For plain it is that one Elder when their is a full Presbytery or Classis hath an incompleate power though not a compleat And yet I hope this incompleat power in one Elder when there are other Elders joyned with him will not warrant him to exercise a power compleat when he is alone because such a power must be exercised by a Church with one Elder alone cannot be And if one Elder having an incompleat power when he is joyned with others may not exercise a compleat power when he is alone how will the incompleat power of a Congregation when they have neighbours suppose that in such case their power were indeed incompleate how will this I say warr●nt that Congregation when they are alone to exercise a compleat power For ought I see the compleat power of the Congregation is no more warranted upon this ground then the like power of one Elder upon the same ground the cases being alike in both Neither doth a Congregation transgresse any rule of Christ at all when it exerciseth entire power of censures within

A REPLY TO Mr. Rutherfurd OR A defence of the Answer to Reverend Mr. Herles Booke against the Independency of Churches VVherein such Objections and Answers as are returned to sundry passages in the said Answer by Mr. Samuel Rutherfurd a godly and learned Brother of the Church of Scotland in his Booke Entituled The Due Right of Presbyters are examined and removed and the Answer justified and cleared By RICHARD MA●HER Teacher to the Church at Dorchester in New ENGLAND 1646. LONDON Printed for J. Rothwell and H. Allen at the Sun and Fountaine in Pauls Church-yard and the Crown in Popes-head Alley 1647 The Authors Preface to the Reader Christian Reader HAving published some yeares agoe a small Treatise in way of a brotherly Answer to reverend Master Herle I now present unto thy view a defence thereof against such objections and answers as have been returned to sundry passages therein by reverend and learned Master Rutherfurd In which undertaking it hath been farre from my intention to increase or uphold the differences that have appeared of late yeares in England amongst the servants of the Lord about matters of Church government For I had much rather bring Prayers and teares for the quenching of such fires then fewell or oyle for the increasing thereof neither shall the same I hope be any thing at all increased by what here I present now thy view At the least this I may say that I intended no such thing but the contrary even the promoting of truth and peace if it were the will of God so to blesse my desires and endeavors True it is I have taken the liberty to consider and try some things delivered by that reverend brother whom here I have to doe withall but this I trust cannot be justly offensive in as much as the Spirit of the Prophets is Subject to the Prophets 1 Cor. 14. 32. and the doctrine of the Apostle himselfe was examined by those noble Bereans whom the holy Ghost commendeth for searching the Scriptures daily whether those things were so Act. 17. 11. It is also true which our reverend brother saith in his Epistle to the Reader before his Peaceable Plea that there is great cause of sorrow that all the Lords people should not minde one thing and sing one song and joyne in one against the Children of Babel Neverthelesse this may be some comfort against this sorrow that by the providence of the Lord this diversity of opinions and disputes if it be Christianly carried as it may may occasion and produce in the issue the further clearing up of truth For as our author well observeth from the Collision of opinions resulteth truth and disputes as stricken flints cast fire for light Due Right of Presbyt Epistle to the Reader The desire and hope whereof together with the advice of such brethren as I consulted withall was that which chiefely prevailed with me for the publishing of this reply wherein the reader will finde sundry Scriptures and questions controverted in these times discussed and considered so farre as the nature of a Reply or defence did lead thereto and I hope some or other through Gods blessing may receive some profit thereby And if the humble Christian who desires to know and love and practise the truth shall receive any benefit or help for attaining these ends by meanes of this labour of mine it is that which I intended and aimed at and for which I desire that God alone may have the praise and glory If any shall still remaine otherwise minded yet in due time I hope God shall reveale even this unto them In the meane time diversity of apprehensions in these points ought not to bred any alienation of affection amongst those that are otherwise Orthodoxe and sincere It were a thousand pitties if it should For my part I cannot but approve what this reverend brother sometime professeth that he doth both love and dispute contradict and reverence at once Peaceable Plea Epist Yea he counts himselfe a debtor for love charity honour and all due respect in Christ Jesus and a seat and lodging in his heart and highest esteeme to all those that be godly lovers of the truth and sufferers for the truth against Prelacy though possibly they like not well of Presbyteriall government ibid. In answer whereto for I would be loth that such love should be lost upon us without due returne of the like I would for my part professe the like deare and due respect to all those that are qualifyed as here he doth describe of which sort I know there are many though possibly they may like better of the way that is called Presbyteriall then of the Congregationall For those that give apparent Testimonies that they are the Lord's and so that they must live together in heavens I know not why they should not love one another on earth what ever differences of apprehensions may for the present be found amongst them in some things As for bitternesse of spirit and tartnesse of contests I never thought that to be Gods way of promoting truth amongst brethren and therefore I have endevoured in this discourse to avoid the same For I beleeve there is more hope of doing good by solidity of argument with a spirit of meeknesse and love then by sharp and tart language the fruit of bitternesse of spirit wherein for the most part right of reason is wanting the passions being there most vehement and stirring where the intellectuals are most ●eeble and weake Now if any aske why this defence hath been so long deferred it being now two yeares and more since Master Rutherfurd his due right of Presbyt came forth such may be pleased to consider that New England being as 't is counted 3000 miles distant from old therefore many Books may be extant in England a long time afore we that are so remote can so much as heare any sound thereof and those few that come to our knowledge are commonly extant in England a matter of a yeares space afore and sometimes longer In which respect many things may be spoken and Printed against us whereto it cannot be expected that we should returne any speedy Answer And though it be now twelve moneths agoe or more since Master Rutherfurd his due right of Presbyt came to my hands yet at that time my few spare houres from my constant and ordinary employments were wholly taken up otherwise so that I could not attend this businesse any sooner which I desire may be accepted as a just apologie for the late coming forth of this Reply which as it may seeme late so it is more large then in some respect I could have desired by reason that I doe usually transcribe those words of Master Rutherfurd whereto I d●e apply my Answer which course I confesse I did not unwillingly in some respects chuse partly to save the Reader a labour of turning to the place in Master Rutherfurd which I am speaking too which else he must have done or

societies to end in Monarchies whether would it not follow that the Government of Churches must so end as well as that Congregations must depend on the Government of Synods because the light of nature teacheth a communion in government to other societies And whether the multitude of Grecians and Hebrewes who ch●se the seven Deacons Acts. 6. were two Congregations or one onely page 159. Chap. 21. Whether Congregations may be excommunicated by Classes and Synods by vertue of those words Mat. 18. Tell the Church as containing a rule and remedy for all offences or at the least a Church remedy for the offences of Churches and Church members And if yea whether it would not thereupon follow that a Nationall Church must have the benefit of this remedy as well as others and so have no independency of Iurisdiction within it selfe but be subject to the jurisdiction of Generall Counsels which yet Mr. Rutherford doth deny page 164. Chap. 22. When the supreame Magistrate is a professed enemy to Religion whether then it be likely and usuall that the greater part of the people are sincerely religious and whether when the greater part are enemies with their Magistrates it be then the duty of a few that are sincere to assemble in a Nationall Synod and there to enter into a Nationall Covenant and also to injoyne the same unto that greater part page 170. Chap. 23. Whether the word Church be not given to a single Congregation and whether a Congregation be a company or Church-meeting onely for word and Sacraments and not for any other spirituall duties and whether the divers duties 1. of word and sacraments 2. of discipline c. must needs argue divers Churches page 175. Chap. 24 Whether those children of Israell Numb 8. 10. who laid hands on the Levites were Elders by office and as so considered did lay on their hands And whether this Scripture do not prove that where there are no Elders to be had there some principall members though no Elders by office may impose hands on Church-Officers page 180 Chap. 25. Whether a Ministers calling consist in election or imposition of hands and whether of these is greater and whether is prior or posterior Whether 1 Tim. 4. 14. Acts. 6 2 3 4. Acts. 13. 1 2 3. doe prove that the Ministers calling consists in imposition of hands by the Presbeterie and that such imposition of hands is not a consummatory rite or benedictory signe Also whether Rom. 10. 15. do prove that a man cannot be a Minister except some Presbyterie ordaine him before the people choose him and whether otherwise the people doe send a Minister to themselves And whether the people of God may not as well discerne a mans fitnesse to be ordained as his fitnesse to be elected page 196. Chap. 26. Whether the Epistles to Timothy and Titus wherein there are contained rules of direction in laying on of hands do prove that this action may not in any case be performed by Non-officers but must be performed onely by Presbyteries and whether the argument do not make as strongly for the appropriating of laying on of hands to the Prelates as to the Presbyteries and do not as well exclude the Presbyteries from medling therein as exclude the people page 206. To the Christian Reader IN the yeare 1643. there came forth a Treatise against Independency under the name of my Reverend and learned Brother Mr. Charles Herle the Pastor of Winwick in Lancashire This Treatise because it seemed to bee written with such a Candid and peaceable spirit as might witnesse for its Author that the thing he aymed at therein was meerly the disquisition of the Truth and because the Author thereof was many yeares agoe of my Reverend brother Mr. Tompsons acquaintance and mine therefore we thought it might not be in vaine if we should lovingly communicate to the learned Author such apprehensions of ours whereby wee were detained from concurring with his judgement in the principall Question disputed in the said Treatise And therefore in the latter end of the same yeare there came forth a small Script under our Name in way of a brotherly Answer to that his loving and learned Treatise Against this Answer Mr. Samuell Rutherford a learned writer of the Church of Scotland hath alledged and published many Objections Exceptions and Answers in his Booke entituled The due right of Presbyteries I may call them many because in that Treatise of his there are no lesse then 24 or 25 severall places wherein he bring up by name the said Answer disputing against sundry passages therein as if they were not sound which passages if they be indeed erronious and unsound are a great many to bee contained and found in so small a Work the whole Booke as it is now printed containing in it 30. leaves So that the leaves in the Booke are not much more then the places therein which this learned Writer doth object against which being considered I thought it therefore needfull to peruse and weigh as the Lord should helpe the severall places of his fore-mentioned Treatise wherein he deales against the said Answer And having so done I here present my apprehentions to publike view leaving the Prudent and judicious Reader to consider and judge whether this Reverend and learned Brother have sufficiently overthrowne or weak'ned the said Answer or whether the same doe not still remaine agreable to the rule of Truth notwithstanding his Objections against the same or such Answers as he doth returne to severall passages therein CHAP. I. Of Appeales from particular Congregations and the true cause of Appeales and whether by Mr. Rutherford his doctrine in this point there may not be Appeales to generall Councils whose power of Iu●isdiction he doth yet deny FIrst of all in his Page 315. for that is the first place wherein I find him medling with the Answer speaking of doubts concerning Math. 18. 17. Tell the Church In a 9 th Objection about that Scripture besides other particulers hee hath these words viz. There is no reason to appeale to a higher Iudicature because the inferiour may erre because all above a Congregation are Courts which may erre Presbyteries Provinciall Nationall the universall Councill of the Catholicke Church may erre And then for author of this part of the Objection hee subjoyneth my Name and Answer to Mr. Herle Cap. 2. pag. 13 14. Answ When hee is discoursing of doubts concerning that Scripture Math 18. Tell the Church I know no reason why hee should bring those words of mine at such a time or for such a purpose For though I doe acknowledge that I wrote the words which hee hath set downe or such like in the place by him alledged yet that they were brought by me for such purpose as hee doth report viz. For the cleering of Doubts concerning the meaning of Math. 18 17. that I doe utterly deny He that shall looke upon the Chapter and Pages alledged will find that I doe not there meddle at all

conceive is very truly spoken and thereupon it followes that there was a supremacie of Iurisdiction in that Church of Antioch and no necessity of appealing from them to the Iurisdiction of others For ●ith the Synods are only to command the Churches to do their duty and to remit the censure of offenders to the Churches themselves to whom the offenders belong it plainly appeareth thereby where the supremacie of Iurisdiction doth lye The other place is in his Page 307. Where we have these words viz. The power of Jurisdiction ordinary intensive and quo ad essentiam Ecclesiae Ministerialis according to the intire essence of a Ministeriall Church is as perfect and compleat in one single Congregation as in a Provinciall as in a Nationall Yea as in the Catholike visible body whereof Christ is the head Now if there be such perfect compleat power of Iurisdiction in a single Congregation I know not how there can be such necessity of Appeales from them to the Iurisdiction of others as he is pleading for nor how that supreame and independant power in Congregations can be denyed which here he disputeth against For let this compleat and perfect Power of Iurisdiction be acknowledged as due to such Churches and appeales from them to other Iurisdictions will be of small necessity or use I know indeed this Reverend Author sayeth in the Page last mentioned and within a few lines of the words which I have here alledged That a Congregation is so a part of the Presbytery that it hath not a whole intire compleat intensive power over its own members to Excommunicate them And therefore the consociated Churches must have a power over the members of a Congregation Which words I confesse seeme not well to agree with the former because in the one intire compleat intensive Power is denyed to a Congregation and in the other the Power of Iurisdiction ordinary intensive is said to be as compleat and perfect in the Congregation as in the great Churches But it is not the latter words but the former which I do stand upon and by them as I conceive the supremacie of Congregations is established and the necessity of appeales from them to other Iurisdictions is cleerely takes away For if the Power of Iurisdiction be as intire perfect and compleat in the Congregation as in the greater Churches as our Brother expresly affirmes it to be I know not the reason why there must be appeales from the Iurisdiction of the Congregation unto the Iurisdiction of those other Churches If the Power spoken of were more imperfect and incompleat in the Congregation then it is in the other Churches then there might be more reason or ●ayrer pretence for those appeales but sith our Author confesseth it is no more intire compleat and perfect in these then in the Congregation but as compleat and perfect in the Congregation as it is in the other I am yet to seeke of a sufficient ground for the necessity of appeales from the Iurisdiction in a Congregation For is it reasonable to appeale from one Iudicatory to another and yet the power of Iurisdiction be as intire compleat and perfect in the former from which the appeale is made as in the latter to which the cause is brought by such appeale It seemes by such appeales we are not like to be much helper nor much to mend the matter above what it was before and therefore the usefulnesse and necessity thereof is still uncl●●●● I thinke the Brethren erre in this to teach that Antioch had power to determine the controversie Act. 15. When the Churches of Syria and Cicilia to their knowledge were troubled with the like question as verse 24. may cleere I doubt much if they had power to determine a question that so much concerned all the Churches Answ It is not cleere from verse 24. nor from any part of the Chapter as farre as I can find that Antioch did know that other Churches were troubled with this question and if they had known it I see nothing therein but they might notwithstanding lawfully end the matter so farre as concerned themselves For when this question was started amongst them by such as came from Judea and taught this corrupt Doctrine at Antioch the text is very cleere verse 2 that they had much disputation amongst themselves to have ended the matter afore there was any speech of sending to Ierusalem which disputation is an argument that they had right to have ended it if ability had no● been wanting And as for our Brothers reason for the contrary taken from their knowledge that the other Churches of Syria and Cicilia were troubled with the like question there is not one word in the verse alledged to shew that Antioch had knowledge of any such matter nor is Syria and Cicilia once mentioned therein And though they be mentioned verse 23. Yet neither doth this verse declare that Antioch had any knowledge that this question had ever troubled those other Churches Say it be true that indeed they had been troubled therewith and that the Epistle from the Synod doth intimate no lesse this may prove that when the Epistle came to be read at Antioch then Antioch by this meanes might come to the knowledge thereof but all this doth not prove that Antioch knew so much afore And therefore they might endeavour to end the matter amongst themselves as not knowing for any thing our Author hath yet brought to the contrary that any other Churches besides themselves were troubled therewith But suppose they had known so much I see nothing in this to hinder but Antioch might lawfully cleere up the truth in the question and censure such of their Church as should obstinately hold and teach that false Doctrine notwithstanding their knowledge that others had been troubled with the like Doctrine and teachers Suppose a Christian family be troubled with lying Children or servants or such as are disobedient and undutifull in one kind or in another suppose they also knew that their neighbour families are troubled with the like shall this knowledge of theirs hinder the Parents or Masters in such a family from censuring or correcting these that are under their government according to their demerits If not why shall Antioch be hindered from censuring offending members of their Church only upon this ground because to their knowledge other Churches are troubled with the like offenders A City or Corporation is troubled with Drunkards with theeves or other vicious and lewd persons and knoweth that other Cities or Corporations are troubled with the like A Nationall Church as Scotland for example is troubled with obtruders of Ceremonies Service booke Episcopacie or other corruptions and knoweth that England or other Churches are troubled with the like shall Scotland now be hindered from removing these corruptions and the obtruders of them from amongst themselves only upon this ground because England to their knowledge is troubled with the like Or shall the Corporation ●ee hindered from