after the councell had saied that the gospels with other scriptures should be red on Sabboth daies yt addeth vve must not read bookes vvhich are ovvt off the canon but the canonicall bookes off the old and novv testament alone And where he would cōfirme his interpretatiō by the 47. canon off the third councell off Carthage he is againe indebted vnto Harding which against Maister Iewell alledging the councell off Carthage to proue that it commaunded nothing should be red in Christes congregation but the Canonicall scriptures answereth with the same wordes the D. doth charging him with falsehood To whom as now also to the D. the bishop answereth that the meaning off the councell vvas that nothing els shoulde be red which he proueth by the councell off Hippo an abridgement off that off Carthage whene it is thus written The scriptures canonicall vvhich are to be red in the church and beside vvhich nothing may be red and so goeth forward alledging other testimonies affirming partly that nothing owght partly that nothing was wont to be red in the church beside holy scripture His answer to the councell off Colen is too childish The councels wordes in the sixt Canon are these vvhere in times past yt vvas ordeined off the most holy fathers that the holy scriptures alone shoulde be red in the church vve knovve not by vvhat carelesnes other not to be compared vvith them are come into their place Wherby appeareth that it condemneth not onely reading off sainctes liues wheroff it speaketh after but generally the breach of the councels decree that nothing should be red in the church but holy scripture Where he museth how we can say that reading off homilies were meanes to instle the bible into corners seing we will haue the reading of scriptures giue place to preaching I haue shewed how grosse and intollerable ignorance it is where I proued the excellency of preaching before simple reading off scriptures but especially before homilies The obiection which I made off praier is answered the answer is not ones moued as for that the necessity off chaunging the wordes off scripture in praier is as strong against sermons preaching as homilies reading I haue shewed how false it is when as that chaunge is autorised by precise commaundement off God which can not be shewed for reading homilies His reason that the Apocrypha may be red in the church becawse the councell off Carthage decreing onely the reading off canonicall scripture tooke them in that nomber adding that they be aswell red in the church as counted portions off the ould and new testament is absurd For seing it is vtterly vnlawfull for them to take them as portions off the ould and new testament yt followeth by his owne reason that it is vtterly vnlawfull for them to be openly red Where he saith there is nothing in them contrary to the rest off the scripture accounting them as a part althowgh the reason be nothing worth considering that so a booke gathered owt off Cato Theognes and Cebes tables c. may be red in the churche yet I answer that there be many places partly plainly contrary to the holy scripture partly friuolous and vnworthy to be red For Esoras Apocrypha I will refer the reader partly vnto Caluins censure of them the treatise I doo not precisely remember sauing that it is like to be in one of those against the Anabaptists or Libertines whose gospell those bookes be and partly to the manifest contradiction with the holy scripture which referring the genealogy off Esra vnto Eleazar to whom the priesthood belonged is by the Apocrypha referred vnto Ely and consequently vnto Ithamar to whom yt did not apperteine Off some off the other I will gyue a few examples Where the holy gost condemneth the fact off Simeon and Levy towardes the Sichemites Iudith in propounding it for example and to strenghthen her faith in the cutting off off Holofernus head alloweth yt If it be saied but the booke doth not allow it The scripture neuer propoundeth a faultie praier withowt condemning off it especially so long The sonne off Syrach affirming that the true Samuell prophecyed after his death leaueth the disquieting off the iust in the courteousie off coniurers which is vngodly doctrine and contrary to that peace the scripture saith they be in where Daniell sheweth that the fire bourned after the three young men were throwen into it to the commendation of the power of God which kept them from suffring in any part off it the counterfait Daniell affirming that the Angell smote the flame off the fire owt of the fournace and cawsed as it were a moist hissing winde in the middest c. partly falsifieth partly discrediteth Daniel as one that lefte owt such weightie thinges as he there supposeth I passe by how vnworthy yt is that he that hath ouereaten him selff is bidden to rise and goe vomit and after get him self to rest which are preceptes fitter for the kitchin then for the church Likewise the Iewish fable of the fire takē to be hidden and other such toies and of commending him that slue him self off demaunding pardon off the reader a language vnmeet for the holy gost Thes few off a nomber which come to minde shall suffise for a tast And be cause the D. tasteth nothing but autoritie off men he hath Ierome of this minde which writing to a woman biddeth her take heed off all the Apocrypha affirming that they are not theirs vvhose names they beare that there are many faulty thinges mingled and that it requireth vvisdome to seeke for gold in durt The hymne also off the three children he runneth throwgh where Erasmus iestingly saith it is merueill that Ierome putteth this song vpō the spit meaning condemneth it seing it is both red and soung in churches euery vvhere as if it vvere some speciall holy thing Wherby it is not vnlike but that he speaketh in another place off the reading off Apocrypha to edyfying off the people not to confirmation off the doctrine is spoken rather story wise in telling what was doon in that time thē what he allowed for if it be daungerous for one to read them priuately howe must it needes be more to read them openly onles it be with exposition which is yet more absurd Except paraduenture to reconcile Ierome one had rather interprete those wordes the church reades off the priuate reading of euery one off the church wheroff there are examples Now I must put the D. also in minde that nether in his first nor later booke he hath answered the Adm. reason towching priuate reading onely of the Apocrypha because their name vvhich signifieth secret or hid doth speake as much If he will say they are so called because the writers of thē are vnknowen he can not so escape cōsidering that this name doth put a difference betwene them and canonicall which it could not if that
vse is shewed to haue continued in the Deacons diij We are also confirmed in this refusal by autoritie off a nombre off the reformed churches dcxviij off the Godly writers which haue particulerly spokeÌ„ against ether all or some of these offices As Ierome 598. M. Wicleue 616. Luther 617. Barnes and Hooper 526. Bucer 556. 567. 662. Musculus 549. 598. Caluin 566. 613. c. 629. The bishop off Salisbury 568. Beza 505. Bullinger 426. 567. Hetherto belonge â—â— that the answerers reasons in this cause are drawen almost 〈◊〉 from the Papistes Namely from Pighius Harding and other â—â—pistes against the Catholikes 414. 426. 446 573. 616. 622. And from Harding against the bishop of Salisbury 425. 430. 453. 472. 497. 500 599 601. 611. 612. Ecclesiasticall election IT owght to be with consent of the church first for that yt ys the institution off god This is shewed owt off the 14. Actes 194. Here is disputed off the signification of lifting vp of handes 199 Also out of the 8. 1. Corinthes 209. and Actes 6 134. for that the lightest charges off the church were not doen but by consent off yt where the exception taken from Pigghius is answered Likewise owt of j. Actes 12â— Considering that in that Election which was made immediatly by the lord the churches iudgement was not passed by This ys strenghtned by Nomb. 8. 220. Leuiticus â— Nombers 20. 222. Hetherto perteineth that which the D. alledgeth to the contrary owt off Titus 1. and Timoth. 1. 5 â–ª cclxv drawen from Pighius cclxx Whereto belongeth that the scripture sometime attributeth to the chief in an action that is coÌ„mon to moe then to them confirmed by the manner off speaking both in scripture and otherwise also by the iudgemeÌ„t of Caluin Musculus 196. Beza 135. Bullinger 197. Further that which the D bringeth owt off 13 Act. taken from Hosius cclxxxiij Likewise that the form off the Election should be other now then in time off the Apostels ccxxxv Where the number off Christians and throwgh the nomber tumult in elections is confuted Also that of the difference of religion and maners betwene Christians then and now taken from Hosius ccxlj â–ª Where is handled the shutting forth of papistes Dronkards and Whoremongers Further that the estate off the church was not then popular ccxlix That the confirmation off the election by the magistrat altereth not the forme cclxij Hether also refer the counterfait Ambrose drawen from Pighius off the diuersyty off gouernement off the church then and now cclix This is confirmed of the effectes off the church Election because yt breedeth assurance off the minister in his calling maketh the people more obedient to him as Musculus confesseth cclx Causeth the Godly to loue him 〈◊〉 and bridleth the Hypocrites from outrage against him … xix Hetherto refer that the D bringeth off the supposed contention that this will breed cxxxiiij cxlvij cclxxxviij Likewise of the comparison betwene the effectes off our bishops elections with those off the churches cxlvij. ccxxvij Likewise that the errors off the churches election may be commodiously remedied by the churches hard by by the Synodes and if they faile by the magistrat 23â— That it is the churches liberty as Musculus saith cclx Also that the consent off the parliament touching the bishops election ys not the churches ecclesiastical election Where the D doth but mocke the church ccxxv That certein thinges ar variable in this election hindereth not the perpetuitie off the churches coÌ„sent cxxxvij That the ignorance off the church is not such as both hinder the churches election cxi cxlvj. ccxxix Nether corruption of religion such cxivij Nor of affections ccxxix This is also shewed by comparison off the churches election with that which is coÌ„monly doen in ciuil affaires ccxxiiij confirmed by Peter Martyr ccxxviij Last off all this is confirmed by ould custome ccxx by Councels Nycene cclvij cclxxxiiij CoÌ„stantinople Carthage Toledo alledged page xxxvij off my first book off Paris Orleans with diuers other ccxx Emperours decrees cciij Ignatius cciij Cyprian cxxv ccxâ—ij Where is the D. exception taken owt off Pigghius Gregorie Nazianzene Ambrose ccixxx Chrysostome cxciij Ierome cclxxvj Augustin cclxxviij The exception against which testimony is takeÌ„ from Pigghius Oecumenius ccij Luther ccxiiij Archbishop off Reines â—usanus Celestinus Leo ccliij Off the autorities which he vseth that off Chrysostome vppon the 6 off the Actes is answered cxciij That owt of his book de sacerdorio and S. Iohn drawen both from Hosius cclxxxviij ccxcj The rest ether are nothing to purpose or are shewed flat against him for vs as the Canon attributed to the Apostles off the Ancyran and Antioch can Councel ccxvâ—ij Caluin cxxvj. ccxvj ccxxij Zuingâ—â—us and Bulllinger cxcvj Beza cxciâ—ij Musculus ccixiij and toe example off the Tigurine election ccixv Differing in some point fâ—â—m vs are shewed greatly against him Examinâ—â—â—on an other part off election That the ecclestasticall ministers examinatioÌ„ is instituted in the word ys shewed owt off Acres j. cxxj 6. Act cxxvij. 1. Timothy iij. cxliiij Whether perteineth the example off Ieroboam clxi Althowgh they be knowen yet meet they should be offered vnto yt cxxij yea and examined althowgh some good knowledg be before exxviij That it owght not to be made by one onely as appeareth by the former testimonies Hether belong the reasons of ignorance corruption in religion and affection noted in the former title as those which are common to this aswel as to the churches consent in election This is explaned by comparison off Ciuill affaires res cxxâ—x c. clix Confirmed by example off S. Paul xvj Act. cliiij Whether perteineth that alledged of the D. that S. Paul was receiued at the testimony of Barnabas 160. Especially this examination owght not to be made by the Archdeacon in the election off a bishop cliiij And that the receiuing of a bishop at his testimonie came from Rome cxliij That in the examination with vs the church ys vtterly shut owt howsoeuer the D pretend otherwise cliiij Knowen adulterers owght not to be receiued into the mynistery clxxvj Nor ministers fallen into Idolatry cxlv The law of Moses in that behalf owght rather to be obserued vnder the gospel then vnder the law cixxvj The endes hereof clxxiiij Here is handled the example of Iudas clxviij clxxiiij The Pharisies clxviij Off S. Paul and Peter clxxiiij Likewise are handled S. Peters denial clxxvij and the gentiles Idolatry clxxxiiij Increased by the D. to the end that the Popish Idolatry should semeles Likewise that the decree off restoring ministers fallen into Idolatry was not of the Councel of rebaptization clxxxij That they which are nue come to religion owght not to be receiued to the ministery off the word clxxx That a prouf may be taken off the bishops habilitie in teaching before he be ordeined cl That if they be not able to teach they owght not by the word to be ordeined ccclxvij Hether perceineth that
be the easilest caried into all other places and which abounding with knowledge off the gospell were fittest to iudge off the goodnes off the cause Wherin I doubte not but the good hande off Gods direction and the example off the Apostells haue bene considered who that they might haue fuller sheues off the seed of their doctrine preased to the chief and moother cities making their accompte that the mother being won the daughters round abowte vvould be easilier intreated And althowghe yt come to often to pas that there is some Amazias or high preist nere the courte which vseth both his eies to watche that none come thether to disquiet his vnlawfull possession yet forsomuche as it is as impossible to pull the winges off the winde that yt should not blow or shut the windowes off the heauens that they should not raine as to stop that trwth which God in his holy worde hath breathed and doeth raine by the clowdes off his mynistery I dowbt not but the voice off yt is come to the highest and shall haue that fruict in time which God hath disposed off Yf yt should not yet euery faithfull mynister is detter vnto his flocke off the whole trwth learned owt off the worde off God aswell for reioicing their heartes in encrease of knowledg as that therby they might bewail their synnes for want off yt and forthwith be stirred to continuall praier that God would encline the Princes heart and off others in autoritie to gyue yt that defence which apperteineth Nether doe we therefore call vpon the examination off our doctrine as thowgh we feared least our behauiour should be examined or as if yt resembled the Anabaptistes maner of liuing but that I might shew how disorderly the D. goeth to worck For althowgh before the Lord we and I for my part especially as myserable synners hang down our heades and couer our faces yet our behauiour throwgh his grace towching that surmised of vs ys such as we nothing fear but with all indifferent iudgement yt conteineth plentifull remedy against the sting off all suche slaunderous tonges Wise Physicions when the desease is vnknown seeke yt by owtward tokens off pulse vrine c. Yf we had nourished any night or corner doctrine which we whispering in the eares of certeine woulde not haue had come owt of the doores of our priuat houses yt should haue bene accounted to him for wisdom by signes and coniectures to haue inquired into our couert opinions But now seing we haue Fanckly and openly published our iudgementes and as yt were on the Faire and Market daies proclaimed them offering them in scholes in churches by preaching by writing not onely to the tast off the commen people but to the examination of the best learned after al this to inquire by signes and tokens is to seek his aduersary whiche standeth hard by to call for him which is present And yt is as if one to know what iudgement an other is of had rather take his mark by the colour of his coat or tag of his point then by his speache or hand writing And if it were the good will off God I would for this matter he had a window to look into our consciences To make and ende of answer to these surmises whatsoeuer is proper ether to the heresie off Papistes Anabaptistes Donatists or puritanes that wee vtterly condemne vnto the bottomles pit off hell But if amongest the filth of their herises there may be found any good thing as yt were a grain off good corn in a great deal of darnell that wee willingly receiue not as theiree but as the Iues did the holy Arke from the Philistines wherof they were vniust owners For herein yt is trw that is said the sheep must not lay dovvn her fel becavvse she seeth the vvolf somtim clothed vvith yt yea yt may come to pas that the Synaguog off Satan may haue some one thing aâ— somtime with more conuenience then the trw and Catholike churche off Christ Such was the ceremonie off powring water once onely vpon the childe in baptisme vsed with vs and in the moste reformed churches which in some age was vsed onely by those off the Eunomian heresy As for the Answerer let him remember that the iust Iudge liueth before whome if he doe not speedelie repent one day notwithstanding his gloses I accuse none I apply yt to none he muste houlde vp his hand with Satan the Prince off the accusers off the children off God wherunto I doubt not but his own conscience is his Apparitor and hath giuen him summonce And thus much for answer vnto the D. generall partly accusations and partly surmises against the fauourers off the church discipline now propounded There folow particular charges against the autors off the admonition and against me Those against them haue bene answered and the answers so far forth as they touche the cause are in this boke mainteined sauing certein new charges Wherein I dowbt not but they will take yt in good part that I vse silence seing that some of the smaller thinges are such as lie not in my knowledg and some so manifestly vntrw that they need not fear any credit to be gyuen vnto them the D. him selfe as I thinck not belieuing them Of his accusations against me because some haue eie aswel to the speakers as to the thinges spoken I trust yt shall not be greuous yf I answer somthing Especially when in this preface beside other thinges I purpose God willing to Synk nigh half his later book For if one would make suruey off reproches vntrw surmises and false accusations wherwith he hath frawght yt beside a nwe lode which he hath charged the second edition off his first boke with he should I suppose finde nigh one half spent in those wares Wherin he dealeth with me as certein beastes which pursued cast forth behinde them an vntollerable sauour therby to affray their hunters from further chasing them In deed they are very vnpleasant but the good sauour off the trwth and off honest behauiour in thinges he accuseth me off hath by the grace off God so comforted all the senses off my minde that he hath not escaped by this pollicie Some off his accusations touche the cause but the most part touche yt not Off this later kynd one sort are off my maner of liuing â–ª albeit he count yt a childishe kinde off confuting that one should leaue the cause and take him self to the person Here my ministerie is diuerslie accused as that I did not seke for the ordre off priesthood as it is called for that is that he meaneth I should haue done by othe or els departed the Colledge The answer hereto is longer then this treatise may embrace which I am readie to exhibit before him to whom it belongeth because I am prouoked I humbly desire him to receiue the cause But in a word yt ys a meer cauill For the meaning off
treatise off the apparel I haue passed by the causes vvherof assigned by me if they shall not be approued by those to vvhose iudgemeÌ„t I submit my selfe vpon significatioÌ„ off their minde in that behalf I vvill resume yt again in that place vvhere I shall handle the conuenience and inconuenience off the ceremonies off the church vnto vvhich place I vvish I had reserued the most part off that Tractat vvhich in my book ys the first The learned reader I desire that vvhere â— confute some thinges vnvvorthy in his iudgement to be mentioned he vvould gyue that to those that are not so vvel aduaunced Althovvgh I confes that off a nomber off them the consultation vvhether any vvere so rude as not to perceiue them vvithovvt helpe stood me in more then the confutation The reader that vnvvillingly readeth the controuersies betvvene those off the same profession in doctrine I trust shall not lose his trauail if he desire to be confirmed against the errors off the papistes the same in many places vvith the Ansvverers Off all I desire both learned and others that they vvould support my vveaknes vvheresoeuer and in vvhat sort so euer yt shall appear seing I trust it shall be manifest vnto them that in a good cause I haue laboured also to kepe a good conscience For better vnderstanding of the book after yovv are a litle entred yovv shall vvhere I remembred yt finde the doctor althovvgh not alvvaies in so many vvordes â–ª yet in the same sense in a smaller letter the testimonies and that alledged out off my former book and admonition being in a greater Sometimes throvvgh his to muche fondnes and repetition I put onely a vvord or tvvo to gyue the reader to vnderstand that I vvander not vvithovvt an aduersary referring him for further knovvledge vnto his ovvn book vvhen I refer yovv for any place ether of my former or els off both his a fevv excepted in the beginning I folovv his later book vvhere all these bookes be Of faultes escaped in the printing some are suche as ether ouerthrovv the vvhole sense corrupt yt or that othervvise may greatly hinder yovv VVhich I haue set apart from the rest desiring yovv to vouchsafe to correct them especially vvith your pen considering that yt is but a small labor to yovv in one book vvhich vvould haue bene infinite to me in all Fare vvel gentle reader and if thovv take any profit off my labors remember me in thy praiers vnto the lord for his assistance in the rest off my life and namely for that vvhich remaineth of ansvver vnto the D. book The faultes most necessary to be corrected Page 15. lin 8. put owt priestes and. and l. 14. put owt either priestes or pag. 31. lin 26. read is not asword pag. 57. lin 11. read with the contrary of that sentence pag. 66. lin 22. put owt against pag. 84. stat R flat pag 152. lin 9. put owt suche pag. 164. lin â–ª 26. yet R. yea pag. 170. lin 31. for the second inuisible R. visible pag. 173. lin 31 R. faithfulnes pag. 191. lin 23. in the margent R. 2. Coun. pag. 211. li. 8. put owt they pag. 252. lin 26. for decree R. they decreed pag. 261 lin 20. pastors R. people pa 266. lin 32. R. for if the. pa. 273. lin 34. in certein copies For those alledged Titus to proue Timothy and read those alledged to proue that Timothy and Titus did pag. 296. lin 26. R. Euangelistes and pastors pag. 368. li. 16. giftes R. vices pag. 390. li. 16 put owt but. pag. 402. lin 16. R. inconuenient pag. 440 lin 5. this R. there is pag. 441. li. 9. put for as where as and lin 12. R. and in not pag. 443. lin 2. obteined R. obserued pa. 499. lin 22 after the word before ad yt appointeth pag. 516. lin 19. for bishops R. elders pag. 553. li. 2. put out belike suche as ours Other faultes vvhich may somevvhat stay the Reader Page 9. line 6. put owt and pag. 11. li. 15. saith R. faith page 18. li. 35. one read owne page 19 li. 25 R procedeth page 21. li. 19. R. Vincentius page 23. li. 6. they R. there page 31. li. 2. R. spake page 33. in the margent put owt Ierome Tom. 3. praeface in Iob. page 37. li. 11. R. bouldnes page 41. li. 5. R. suspition page 42. li. 21. R. not to come page 46. in the margent R. implicita pa. 46. li. 30. R. members page 49. l. 14. for R. of page 50. li 21. R. magnifie pa. 51. li. 11. there al R the real page 52. li. 29. put owt the page 53 li. 9. R. that a man li. 11. R. and not onely page 55. li. 36. R â–ª herewith page 61. li. 25. diuis 7. R. 5 page 64. li. 28. R not note pag. 77. li. 18. R. Ancyran li. 21. put owt is page 94. li. 16. R. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 page 96. li. 31. R. remnantes page 106. li. 4. R. snatcher page 108. li. 35. this R. thus page 112. li. 18. R. tel me now page 116. li. 19. put owt yet page 131. li. 26. R. poore page 133. li 26. R self pa. 145 li. 8. R. answerer li. 8. be R. he page 146. li. 24. R. soundnes of doctrine page 148. l. 36. R. not page 151. li. 6. R. gift l. 29. R. abilitie page 194. l. 8. put owt the figure of twelue page 211. li. 23. M. R maister page 225. li. 20. R. I haue page 233. li. 3. if R. yt page 234 li. 35. in the magent R. â—75 page 238. li. 13. R. was then page 247. li. 8 R. the whole page 265. li. 19. R. fauouring page 259. li. 24. R. yow might page 281. li. 15 put owt and page 293 li. 20. R ministery page 302. li. 11. R title page 316. li. 13. he R. be li. 7. R. moste page 334. li. 37. R. with page 337. li. 18. R. yt is in an page 341. li. 29. be R. he page 351. li. 35. R. are in the li. 36 are R. of page 364 li 30 R seauen yeare page 373. l 21. R. reading li. 28. R. dealing page 380. li 24 in the margent R. 572. page 394. li. 13 yt R. yet page 405. li. 29. R. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 page 457 li 36 for the second there R. his page 460. li. 32 R. in that page 478. li 20. R. for him page 485. li. 12. R. weigh page 492 li. 1. put owt which page 494. li. 18. R. title page 504. li. 24. R. chew wordes page 503. li. 12. 17 29. 33. R Sozomene page 508 â–ª li. 29. R. fondly page 534 li. 29. R. had said page 536. li. 1. R. doen page 562. li. 34 R. peece page 565. li. 29 their R. other li. 33. for other R. their page 566. l. 16 R. with page 570. li. 9. in the margent R. aduersus page 581. li. 30 R. scambling page 585. li 8 is R as The ansvver vnto the doctors praeface entitled to
the godly reader TO all here in controuersie coÌ„sidering they are barely said without proof yf they be affirmations one yea yf they be denials one nae shall be enowgh seing they are all handled at large in this book Except that off ceremonies vsed in popery wheroff how vntrwly he speaketh when he saith that the reiecting off them standeth vpon this that we may not vse in any wise or in any consideration reteined in the church any thing that hath bene abused vnder the Pope both hath manifestly in my former book and further shall God willing in the later part off my reply appear Answer to his two Tables wheroff the first is intitled off daungerous pointes off doctrine the other off vntrwthes and falsified autorities conteined in my reply AFter I had ended my book and was entred vpon the preface I receiued a treatise called An examination off M. Doctor VVhitgiftes censures conteined in tvvo Tables set before his book intituled the defence of the ansvver to the admoni Wherof as I was glad for the truthes safe which shall receiue strenght by yt so I was sory that I receiued yt no sooner for that it might both haue cased me off muche labor and haue serued me for a good direction in those places which might seem to require a larger defence then the shortnes yt foloweth would receiue And as those off the churche which acknowledg this trwth so I especially for whose support I take yt was written hartely thanck the autor and desire the reader to vse yt for a supply where my answer doeth not satisfy him Whiche answers off myne so far as I haue hetherto gone he shall finde after this sort In the firste Table The first Article becawse yt was not lincked with any particuler cause in controuersie I pourposed to answer in this place but now I will rest in the answer which is made The 2. is answered page xlij line 33. The 3. is answered page xlv line 17. The 4 page liij li. 20. The 5. page lxxxix li. 14. The 6. page xcv l. 29. The 7. page ccxlij li. 21. For the 8. I refer my self to the foresaid treatise especially considering that I haue passed by that whole Tractate The 9. is answered page ccccxlviij lin 6. The 14. page ccclj li. 28. The 15. page ccclxxiij li. 37. In the second Table The first is answered page viij li. 22. The 2. page ix li. 26. The 3. page lxij li. 21. The 4. page lxxxij lin 37. The 5. page xcj. li. 4. The 6. page clx ij l. 29. The 7. page cxcj li 1. In the 8. that part touching subtil suppression is answered page cclij li. 12 the other lieth vpon Illiricus whom I named the autor off that report yf yt be not in the Code The 9. is answered page cclv li. 16. The 10. page cclvj li. 27. The 11. page cclxxvj li. 27. The 12. and 17. page cclxxvij li. 17. The 13. page cclxxx li. 12. The 14. page cclxxxj li. 4. The 15. page cclxxxij li. 7. The 16. page ccc li. 33. The 18 pa. cclxâ—x li. 34. To the 19. and 20. I answer as to the 8. off the first table The 22. is answered page cccclxxxj li. 18. The 22. ccccxxxvj li. 12. The 23. page ccccxciij li. 33. The 24. page diiij li. 1. The 25. pa. dxij li 28. The 26. page dxxxiiij li. 11. The 27. dlxx li. 15. The 28. page dcxxv li. 26. The 29. page dcxxvj li. 36. The 30. page dcxv li. 4. The 31. page dcxxvij li. 29. The 32. is answered before in the Epistle The 33. page dcxlj li. 13. The 34. page dcxliij li. 33. The 35. page dcxlv li. 1. The 36. page dxxiij li. 5. The 37. page dcliiij li. 1. The rest in both the tables remain to be answered in the second part off my reply The replye vnto the answer pag. j. c. FOr the foure fyrst sectyons being either false accusations bare repetitions off my wordes or profes off thinges which I haue set downe and confesse I will not answer His fifte section answerethe not any thinge to diuers reasons which I haue set downe to proue that this cause can not be charged with disorder whose whole worke is that nothing be donne owte off place owte off tyme besides the boundes off euerie one His seuerall callinge in the 6. sectyon 4. pag. he falling to railing doothe gwilfully passe by the reason which I haue alledged why this doctine which we mainteine can not be thowght enemy vnto princes seing yt was a freende to princes when princes where enemies vnto it For him selfe can not denie but the gouernement by elders the choise off the ministers by the churche the moste off those thinges which he especially supposeth to haue warre with the ciuile magistrate and are in controuersie betweene vs were in the tymes off the Apostells when they being troden vnder feete off the ciuile Magistrate did neuer lifte vpp their heele againste his power And where he saithe it is no plaine dealing to drawe that to this cause which is trewly spoken off the gospell he needed not to haue charged vs with wante of plaine dealing seing we offer to shew the discipline to be a parte off the gospell and therfore to haue a comon cause so that in the repulse of the discipline the gospell receiueth a checke That the discipline off the church is not in the nomber of those thinges which are varyed is disputed in the second tractate and in her seueral partes thorowe out the whole booke That the distinction off the common welthe and the churche hathe bene and owght to be kepte of al men which haue spokeÌ„ or written with any Iudgement shall be shewed in the 20. Tractate and therfore althowghe the answerer doo a 100. tymes repeete this thinge in bare affirmacions yet the reader shall once for all looke for the answer off thes thinges in those places In his 8. section page 1. he speaketh off the authoritie off the magistrate vppon no occasion to no purpose with greate wordes with no proofe Then as thowghe I had written in vnknowne figures as the priestes of Aegypte he complaineth of my obscuritie and that he can not vnderstande what I meane wheras I coulde hardely haue vsed greater light of speache if I had bente my selfe therunto For I proue the singuler benefite that the discipline bringeth to the comon welthe for that by the Ecclesiasticall censures off admonition reprehension suspension c. the lesser faultes off lying vncomely iesting and cholericke speaking being met with all the passage is stopped againste the greater faultes off thefte adultery and murder Wherin obserue his vnfaithfull dealing which feining him selfe not to vnderstande that which my wordes doo fullie sounde doothe notwithstanding forge thinges off me wheroff there is not the smallest ynkling For here vppon he asketh whether I thinke not the punishemet of thefte and murther sharpe enowghe with diuers other which folow vnto all
your faulte remainethe still For I noted your vnskilfulnes in that yow setting downe certeine argumentes which yow referred to the fallation off Secundum qui◠afterwardes make the argumentes off authoritie negatiuely and negatiues by comparison two seuerall kind off argumentes from the first whiche notwithstanding are not diuerse but conteined vnder the former place And that we walke not altogither in the cloudes from the vnderstanding off the simpler yt is all one as yff a man should saye there are three sortes off English men one sowthren the other Bentishe the thirde Middlesex Yff Maister Crammer neuer vsed suche Logicke suche a personage hath great iniurie to be compelled to communicate withe this absurditie for it nothing helpeth yow that he vsed this manner off speeche off Negatiues by comparison vnlesse that yow shew that he makethe them a seuerall kinde from those off Secundum quid And when M. D. is not affraid to offre thes vnto the tast off the learned men he askethe me whether I blushe not trifle in this sorte The trewthe is I am ashamed to haue taried so longe in soo smale a matter and iff yow had charged me withē ignorance onelie and not with falsifiyng your wordes I would I assure yow haue let yow gone withall and I will promise yow from hēceforth what occasion so euer yow giue this wayes excepte it be manifestly ioyned with defence off the cause yow shall doo yt withowt answere Where he complainethe off wante off answere in the nexte section he dothe me wrong seing I referred him to another place for answere To the next section I haue answered To the next sect pag. 28. IFF this sentence he that is a good and a modest preacher will not disdaine as well to be taught as teach be not an idle vagabonde and broken loose from all his followes then it must needes be a reason off that wherin yow said before that yow knew no man so well learned but yt might become him to reade and learne Maister Nowellles Cathechisme and the Argument is as I haue gathered it For yow to proue that yt becommeth the authors off the admonition to learne that Cathechisme adde that the place off Timothie dothe not forbidd to learne And againe a Modest preacher will not disdaine to be taught So that this is your argument A modest preacher must be taught therfore he must learne that Cathechisme and therfore must be enioyned to learne yt And iff yow saie that yow set yt downe to shew that no man is so well learned but he may learne still or to shew that the place off Saint Paule dothe not forbidd to learne I aske to what purpose Considering that the authors off the admonition do not denie that a Minister owght to learne but that yt is vnmeete for a Mynister to be enioyned to learne Cathechismes And as for all the argumentes which the D. gatherethe himselfe owt off this place they are so manie witnesses against him that he fowght with his owne shadowe For where he still concludethe they may reade Cathechismes he concludeth that whiche the admonition denieth not but that whiche the admonition denieth to be meete which is to driue a minister to learne Cathechismes he neuer concludeth Yt shal be therfore at your owne choise whether yow will haue that your argument that I haue framed or els that yow haue not spoken to the matter Vnto the 32 sect pag 28 IN orators I graunt it is a great point off arte to hide arte that it appeare not but when a man setteth him selffe to confute the opener and plainer way hathe alwaies bene most commendable So that iff this were your order yt had bene good that yow had set vp some marke by a transition wherby we might haue vnderstanded yt I know not what happened vnto others but I confesse I sawe no suche order I see this whiche also is true in your former answers that in goinge abowte to heale one wounde yow giue your selffe an other for going abowte to put from yow the absurditie off this argument yow confesse that yow bestowe great labor to proue that which was not in controuersie betwene the admonition and yow the other shal be sene in there places To the next section answere shal be made in the place wherunto he referreth vs For the next vnto that I answere that this is a vaine shift the aduantage wheroff he can not take to excuse his folie For this reason which he here alledgeth he had cited owt off Maister Bucer and Maister Martyr page 258 and immediately after in the page 239. he pretendeth that he will bringe other reasons besides this to proue that the surplis dothe edifie and therfore beginneth a freshe withe furthermore and then addeth Secondlie wheras iff it be trew which he here alledgeth in his pretence off going further he standeth still and remoueth not an ynche For the next vnto that I saye as I said before and referre it to the iudgemente of the reader whether I haue not onelie not corrupted your meaninge but almost conceiued mine argument in the same wordes which yow vse And wher yow so boudlie in asking affirme that capp gowne and tippet vsed in poperie are good signes for that they are signes of good thīges namely off the ministers off the worde I shewed how vntrue that rule is in the 57. and 60. pages against whiche if yow haue any thinge to saye yow shall there vnderstand further To the next pag. 30. MD. taketh it for a thinge assured that the authors of the adminitiō in sayinge that those that first authorised the booke of common praier were studious off peace and buildinge off the church meant that they were so in collectinge and authorisinge that booke for why els saithe he should they speake of them I answere that they had good occasion to saye so to meete withe slaunderous tonges which for the mislikinge off some thinges donne by them are ready to charge them as thowghe they condemned the men or misliked off all thinges they did And althoughe that be graunted whiche he presumeth vppon yet the faulte off the argument remaineth the same it did for thowghe they were studious off peace and buildinge the churche in so doinge yt might well be that they toke not the best way to peace and propounding them selues a good ende chose not the best meanes of comminge thervnto And for this purpose iff I be not deceiued in our Ecclesiasticall storie off king Edwards times it is set foorth how vpon sute made by the Emperour that the ladie Marie which then was might for her selfe haue the exercise off the masse M. Crammer and Master Ridley and I know not who moo became suters to the kinges maiestie that the request off the Emperour might take place I dowbt not but those good men were studious off the peace and buldinge off the churche in this request and propounded that for their ende and yet king Edward that resisted their requeste was neither puller downe
off the church nor disturber off the peace but pleased god and lefte a notable example to all posteritie off Kinges and Queenes that they should not for any respecte of kindred league or allie suffer any suche pollution in their landes The same also might be fall vnto them in gatheringe off the booke for it maye well be that there purpose was by that tempere off popishe ceremonies with the gospell partly the easelier to drawe the papistes to the gospell whilest fearing that they would not frame them selues to yt yt should be some what framed vnto them partely to redeme peace therby the breach wheroff they feared might haue ensued off suche a perfecte and throwgh chaunge as the sinceritie off the gospell required Yff this were there purpose they were studious of peace and buildinge of the churche but yet erred in the meane so it appeareth that it being graunted vvhich the A. demaundeth yet my gathering off his argument is iustified To the 37. sect pag. 30. WHie should yow note here that Cyprians place was abused by the Papistes yt is besides your purpose and contrary to the law to leaue your matche withe whom your are collered and take yow to a stander by For so vnhappelie is it come to passe that the papistes whose disorders and corruption off the discipline off Christ were here oppugned haue founde yow their champion to fight for them whilest they looke on And to what ende seruethe this headlesse arrowe not shott but picked owt against the Papistes They are god be praised substantially conuinced off the corruption off this place off Cyprian by diuerse learned men so that this bare affirmation that Cyprian speakethe not off the vsurped authoritie off the Bishopp off Rome besides yt is owt off season dothe rather moue laughter and confirme the enemie in his obstinacie then giue him remedie against his error But what weighethe this word for in our language is it not a causall and rendreth a reason off that which goethe before Whiche yow haue therfore by all lykelihoode lefte owt that this poore shifte might haue some colour the reste is answered before Vnto the next I answere that yt shall appeare when I come to that place whether there be suche reasons or no. In the next sectioÌ„ he chargeth me in great wordes withe vntruthe and askethe me where I finde in the â—3 page this argument that by that there was one offeuerie congregation he prouethe that there was one ouer a whole prouince To whom I answere that in that he concludethe an Archebishopp ouer a prouince vpon Ignatius places whiche speake off a Bishop in euerie churche he makethe the same argument whiche I haue made To the next page 32. being bare denials and false accusations I answere not Vnto the next sect pag. 33. LEauing his vntrue accusations I answere that where he saithe that the case off Luther and Zuinglius off Circumcision and preaching vnto gentilles which I alledged are not like for that they be substantiall pointes of religion and these be not it is his oulde cuckoes songe For we offer to proue this also off the substance off Religion And I browght the examples onely to shew that to be vntrue which he goethe abowt to perswade that all those which contende where the gospell is preached are to be holden for disturbers Thother difference which he placeth in that Luther and Zuinglius did that which they did in strininge abowt the SacrameÌ„t by consent off theire seuerall magistrates althoughe he dothe not make that appeare yet I aske him what Zuinglius c. should haue done iff the Magistrate would not haue suffred him to answere should he haue suffred the truthe to be destitute off his defence Where he citeth owt off Zuinglius that the gospell is a sworde to deuide the faithfull and therfore that this doctrine which hathe made a diuision in the church can not be good I answere that althoughe he might well saye it to the Anabaptistes and that yt so comethe to passe for the most parte yet that can be no generall rule consideringe that the preaching that circumcision was not necessarie although it deuided those off the church which beleued it from those that did not beleue it yet those which did not beleue it did not ther fore cease to be off the churche and off the numbre off the faithfull The Sermon which our Sauior Christ had amongest his disciples and those that beleued in him touching that his fleshe was the true meate and his bloude the true drinke which who soeuer did not eate and drinke could not haue life in hym did make suche a cut amongest the Disciples that all sauing twelue departed from our Sauiour Christ Yff they made a full departure and Apostasie it is euident that the gospell cureth euen those which be in the church cleane from it yff they did not vtterlie forsake the gospell but offended at that sermon were not as before dailie folowers off our sauior Christ yet it is cleare that that doctrine of the gospell did make apartition betwene the twelue and those other which went there waies in that they beleued that sermon which the other did not they were taught and the other offended Wherupon it foloweth that ether the doctrine which our Sauiour Christ preached was not the truthe or els the truthe may sometimes deuide the faithfull amongest themselues I could cite diuerse other examples bothe owt off the Actes off the Apostles and owt off S. Iohn but these shall suffise to shew the vanitie off M. D. reason And iff he will saye that iff he err M. Zuinglius errethe withe him he is vecelie vnworthy the name off a Deuine that carethe not how ofte he fallethe so he maye fall withe companie Howbeit I haue shewed howe M. Zuinglius sayinge may be vpholden and yet make nothinge for the confirmation off that which he would proue To the next pa. 36. IT fareth withe M. D. as withe malefactors whiche hauing left somethinge behinde them wherby they may be knowen for feare off that whiche foloweth renounce it vtterlie to be theirs But that the conclusion off all thes articles is as I haue set downe that is to saye that the authors off the admonition are either Anabaptistes or in the waye to Anabaptisme albeit he here denie yt I reporte me to the conscience off all those that shall reade him And let his vvordes be considered vvhich be that Anabaptiisme is almost plainely professed in the admonition and so be iudged vvhether I haue trulie gathered his meaning yea or no. I haue spoken so plainelie in that the Answerer maketh so straunge and weroff he requireth more open speache that I can not speake plainlier I vse the wordes which are worne in all schooles and writers which haue occasion to speake off these matters I gaue that which I said light by examples Notwithstandinge he can not see how the Ministerie off England maye be commonlie and for the moste parte vnlawfull and
him that faulteth that waies to be no meÌ„bre off the churche S. Paule found greater scismes in the churche off Corinthe then those were and yet he rebuked them withe an other spirite then yow vse neiter dothe he cut them of from the church but in the spirite off mildnes restoreth them And iff yow had learned that yow ought not to breake a brused reede nor quenche the smoking flaxe yow would haue dealte otherwise then yow doe Yf so be that the churche of England were reformed as yow would beare vs in hande and the Bishops by castinge owt off their ministers owt off their churches had not giuen the occasion of suche departure the departure had bene more vntollerable And therfore as muche as yow add to the amplisyinge of their faulte so muche yow encrease off the sinÌ„e of the bishops which withowt iust cause gaue occasion of that division There is great difference betwene the preaching off the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the preaching off those brethren for the Anabaptistes and other heretikes preachinges be with the vpholding off their false opinions and doctrine contrarie to Scripture werwith yow are not able to charge them in the least pointe but that in all doctrine whiche yow preach truely they preach the same withe yow And vvhere yow saie Disiuncrely that oftentimes the word of god is preached amongest the Anabaptistes and heretikes or the Sacramentes administred in those congregations which yow make Anabaptistes or like vnto them bothe the worde was preached and the Sacramentes Ministred togither And therfore if yow did purposely put that Or rather then and then whilest yow vvrote your conscience offred yow a manifest difference betwene the Anabaptistes and those brethren And iff yow did not put yt purposely but meane that in the conuenticles off the Anabaptistes and heretikes bothe the vvord off god is preached and his sacramentes administred speaking so precisely I would gladlie know off yow vvhat difference yow make betwene the conuenticles of the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the churche off God seing that the preaching off the word and ministring off the sacramentes are the infallible notes thereoff Ind this ought to haue giuen yow occasion off a softer worde yff yow had not bene driuen by the tempeste of your affection rather then led by any quiet and staied iudgement off the truthe Because it is your oulde wont and either yowe can not or wil not proue or improue your sayinges by the word off god I will not stand to note how that vppon Augustins worde onelie withowt any proufe owt off the word off god yow haue here cut a numbre from the churche yf yow bind so harde and locke so fast yow should haue brought the bonde and Keye off the word off god that the conscience which onely looketh vnto the word off god seinge it selffe in that daunger might be carefull to seeke how to be deliuered The glosse and the Text varie here For the one in saying that it standeth me good name vpon to bring them owt which are free wil men and holde consubstanstantiation semeth to denie that there be any suche The other by saying that theÌ„re are not so manye and that they are not iustified do the indirectlie confesse it And if yt were not confessed the thinge is so notorious that albeit I name them not yet I nede not to feare the supition off vntruthe in that which hathe so manie witnesses And where yow saye there are not so many off them as off those whom yow most falsely and slaunder ouslie call puritanes As I reioice therin in the behalffe off the churche off England so it standeth not by any diligence good foresight or discipline off yours that the churche swarmeth not with them seinge they are suffred to haue the highest places in the churche vvhere vvith the leuaine off their false doctrine they may sowre not one towne as it vvere thre peckes but vvhole shires as it vvere a vvhole heape or fatte or other off the largest measures off the lordes meale in our countrey And so althoughe they be not by wordes mainteined yet they are in deede not onelie mainteined but also by suche sufferance in those places rewarded Vnto the nine next sections I answere nothinge In the laste section 45. pag. vnto the places off Saint Paul vvherby I proue that yt is no breache off trew Christianitie to alter in iudgement he answereth that the Apostles meaning is not that men shoulde be dailie altering their iudgement and broching new opinions which is no answer to the question For althowghe we maie not dailie broche newe opinions yet vve owght to correcte our oulde errors as often as we are made vnderstande them So that vnles he will saye that those which beleue the gospell are vvithowte the daunger off error in thinges perteining to the gouernement off the churche c. or that when they knowe their errors they shoulde not amende them boothe which are absurde it muste needes folowe that he goeth abowte to abuse the reader vvhiche vppon that vve haue chaunged Iudgement vvoulde drawe vs into the suspition off lightnes and vnconstancie And seing the churche off Englande chaunged the booke of common praier twise or thrise after yt had receiued the knowledge of the gospell and allwaies corrected some thinge off that whiche yt helde for good before either the answerer must condemne those alterations as childishe and vnconstant or els he must confesse that a whole churche lightened wythe the knowledge off the gospell and established in a certeine order off gouernement maye with owte feare off suspition off that liÌ„ghtenes which he dooth surmise displace the former order and place an other Vnto the 4. nexte I answer nothing sauing that where the glosse chargeth me with contrarietie I desire the reader to consider what contraririe or what colour off contraritie there is betwene thes sayinges the churche can not longe continevve vvithovvt common vvelthes and the churche maye be established vvithovvt a Christian magistrate Yff I had saide that the churche might be established witheowt a magistrate then there had bene some likelyhood off the contrarietye he surmyseth But he shoulde vnderstande as longe as their be magistrates althowghe they be not onely vnchristian but Tyrannicall and persequuting yet the blessing which the lorde geueth vnto his owne ordinance so ouercometh all their malice that ther ceaseth not come euen from that disordered gouernement some thinge to the preseruacion of the churche The answer which his glosse asketh for towching churlishe ansvvering althowghe yt deserued none is page 177. and he coulde not be ignorante but I referred him in the answer to the seuenth article Vnto the firste parte off the laste Section page 47. I answer nothing For answer vnto the later parte towching the place of Timothe wherby he wolde proue that men maye offer them selues to the ministerie I will referre the reder to the treactise off the discipline off â—he churche lately set forthe where this is answered
at large Vnto the fowre nexte sections I answer nothing sauing that where in the seconde secâ— pa. 5â— he saith that master Caluin in his booke against the Anabaptistes affirmethe that the churche as towching the external pollicie can not be perfecte I doo assure my selffe that as in other places so heere he hathe vntrewly saide off Maister Caluin And yt cannot bâ— vnknowne but in Moses and the Apostlâ—â— times ther was a perfecte patruÌ„ of the owtwarde gouernernment off the churches bothe giuen off the lorde and receiued off the churches neither can there be any parte of the owtwarde gouernement off the churche assigned by the answerer which draweth any suche impossibilitie withe yt as he imagineth And iff he saye that ther were faultes committed againste those perfecte patrones that is not to the purpose For the faultes off particular persons doo no more ouerthrowe the perfection off the gouernment whiche was receiued then the faultes off the officers in our churche againste the lawes theroff are to be imputed vnto the lawes them selues wherby that gouernment standeth And as for the examples off the churches off Corinthe and Galatia whiche he alledgeth they rather make against him For that disorder whiche the Apostle chargeth them withe being a slyding backe and falling awaye from that estate wherin they were firste off all set by the Apostell argueth that there was a time when the contrarie off those disorders had place in their churches In the nexte section he alledgeth diuers examples to proue that enemies one withe another conspire against the trewthe whiche no man do which and where I shewed that the churches friÌ„des may doo some thiÌ„ges which some of the churches enemies doo against him whiche in that the admonitors doo certaine thinges with the Papiste and Anabaptistes woulde giue to vnderstande that they are conspired with theÌ„ he answerethe that the admonitors conspire withe the enemies off the churche in thinges whiche are againste the churche which is a manifest begging off that whiche is in controuersie Towching that which I sayde he hathe tawght that there is no commaundement in the scripture to put heretikes to deathe althowghe he denie that euer he did so yet beside that he mainteineth the same in the seconde treatise where he leaueth yt in the libertie off the magistrate whether he will doo yt or no and reiecteth all the lawes off God prouided in that behalfe as Iewis he there be moo witnesses off this then his bare deniall is hable to beare downe to whose knowledge I wil so reporte me in this behalfe that if they confirme not the same I refuse not to beare the blame off that reporte where he saieth there is no cause that he shoulde be better thought of emonge the papistes which teache and practise the contrarie althoughe the Papistes abuse this doctrine to the horrible murther off the church yet the doctrine is the doctrine off god and not the Papistes and yow by staying the course off yt nourishe them to the daye off slawghter and shedding off the bloude off the sainctes off god vvhich is their feaste and vvhiche they so greatly delight in and longe after In althat which foloweth vnto the first tractate vvhich beginneeth page 62. there is nothing worthe the answere And as for that whole tractate because yt perteineth to the question off lordeshipp and dominion off the Archebishopps ouer the bishops and off the Bishopps ouer the reste off the Ministers yt shall be referred to the beginning off the 8. Tractate where the answerer shall receiue his replie What authoritie the churche hathe in making off orders Chapter 1. pag. 77. THe playster vvherwithe the answerer woulde heale his vnskilfulnes in the expounding off tollerating in the churche by these wordes placing in the churche will not cleane For to let pas the meanig off the admonition whiche he shoulde haue shewed iff he mainteine his answer by yt and not as he doothe contrary to all lawe of disputation bid me proue that their meaning was not so as he supposeth I saie to let that pas yt appeareth by bis plaine vvordes that this exposition was not framed in regarde off the meaning off the admonition but for that he knew not what difference there was betwene placinge in the churche and tollerating in the churche For himselffe coÌ„fesseth that this is the principall grounde of their booke that those thinges onely shoulde be placed in the churche whiche the lorde himself in his worde comÌ„aundethe and ascribing this iudgemeÌ„t vnto them he afterwarde expoundeth that to be asmuche as if they shoulde haue saide that nothing shulde be tolerated c. yff this be their principall grounde that nothing be placed c as the A. confessethe and placing in the churche is not the same that tollerating in the churche as he doothe also confesse yt must folowe that the principall grounde off the admonition was not as he saithe that nothing shoulde be tollerated in the churche not commaunded by the worde And his wordes doo discharge the admonition off any suche assertion For in that he saithe that their meaning was so farr as he coulde gather that nothing shoulde be placed c. yt is manifeste that in saying nowe that they mente that nothinge shoulde be tolerated c. he chargeth them farther then he was then hable to gather off their booke Afterwarde he chargethe me withe an vnaduised and a popishe assertion for that I say that many thinges are commaunded in the scripture vvhich are not expressed in yt He neded not to haue trauailed far to haue seene how far I am from poperie in in this pointe iff he woulde haue but considered the wordes which folowe in the same diuision that god hathe set before vs in his vvorde a perfect patrone off his churche But I was at leaste ouerseene in this kind off speache Alas iff he woulde vnderstande his grammer and acknowledge that which simple scholers off the gramÌ„er schoole doo well knowe that their is difference betweene expressed and conteined betweene expressed and included betweene expressed and implied betweene expressed and gathered He woulde neuer haue troubled the reader with suche folies And as for that which I set downe I did yt vppon Good groundes For who is there which knoweth not that thes thinges that there is one essence and three persons in the godheade that there is in our Sauiour Christe one parson and two natures are not expressed but onely conteined in the worde off God And iff proofe must be had off thinges which is to greate shame for one that cariethe the title off a diuine to be ignorant off let the answerer know that lerned diuines speake afte this sorte Their wordes be thes Off the father of the Sonne and holy ghoste there is one nature one essence and thre persons In Christ our lorde there be tvvo natures and one person and many other thinges vvhich the catholike churche doothe receiue rather layde oute by the interpretation
off the Scriptures then expressed in the vvordes off the Scripture Here the answerer may lerne that certaine off the cheiff pillers off our Religion by the Iudgement off this councell are not expressed in the worde off God and yet notwithstanding bothe conteined in the worde off God and commaunded to be beleued And where he saithe that he couÌ„ntethe that expressed in the scripture when yt is either in manifest wordes conteined or theroff gathe red by necessary collection I answer that I suppose that there was neuer writer holie nor prophane that euer spake so and that yt byddethe defiance bothe to de vinitie and humanitie being forged as yt is to be feared contrary to his owne knowledge onely that he might giue some colour vnto that absurdytie which he woulde so gladlye fasten on me I saie that it is against his owne knowledge forasmuche as in his former booke and euen in the nexte diuision which is in the 78 page off this his later booke he confessethe this difference off being expressed in the worde and gathered off it which is the same in effecte which I haue saide For he saithe that nothing owght to be tollerated in the churche ' c. onles yt be expresly conteined in the worde off god or maye manifestly therof be gathered Here he plainely opposeth as member off one diuision expressely conteined and manifestly gathered now in this later booke cleane contrarily he maketh gathered to be a part of expressed And in an other place off his former booke as it appeareth in the 24. page off his booke he saithe and none off these circumstances are commaunded in the scripture or by necessarie collection theroff may be gathered Where he supposeth some thinge necessarie to saluation which is not commaunded namely which may be necessarylie gathered of the scripture And iff those wordes commaunded in the scriptures which are generall will not conteine al that which is necessary as his diuision teacheth how much les will thes wordes expressed in the scriptures compas them and iff commaunded and forbidden be all one with expressed as he here affirmeth then did he absurdely to make gathered off the scriptures to be an opposite member vnto commaunded That which I sayed off the argument off authoritie off a man to be neither good affirmatiuely nor negatiuely farther then to induce thereader into somelikinge or mislikinge and not to haue force to compell is apparaunt vnto al which haue any sparcke of iudgement That which is brougâ— out off Aristotle is to no purpose and it maketh also against the A. Forasmuche as where Aristotle saithe that credite is to be giuen to him that is cunninge he speaketh off thinges which haue a likelihoode and may be disputed off on bothe sydes and not of thinges which are to be receiued without gainesaying And I merueile that the A. will not see that amongest men the cunningest in any profession haue in diuerse thinges bene off those which followed them iustly founde fauls with And if he will bothe sticke to Aristotle and interpretâ— him as he dothe that a man ought to beleue euerie one in that as to and profession where in he is conninge then euerie learned Deuine in his profession is to be beleued whatsoeuer he saithe Which beinge absurd and seinge it hathe bene before shewed that an argumeÌ„t of the authoritie of maÌ„ affirmatiuely is not good let vs holde that for somuche as maÌ„ caÌ„not come through his infirmitie vnto the perfectioÌ„ of any thinge which reason being assigned of me is vntouched of the A. and forasmuche as the giftes off god are giuen in measure and not in perfection that an argument off â—he authoritie off man can not enforcevs and that it is proper vnto the Aposties and Prophetes whom the Lorde had chosen to be his notaries and whose handes he helds continually to be without the hazarde off errour To the places which I alledged owte off the worde off god to proue that an argument drawne of the authoritie off the scripture negatiuely is good he answereth that the examples which I bringe be of thinges of great importance and forbidden in other places of the Scripture I graunt they are so and that maketh much against hym for that the Lorde hauinge this aduantage against the Israelites off charginge them that they had doone contrarie vnto his commaundement chose rather to saye after this sorte that they had doone that vvhich he had not commaunded therby to teache his to hange vppon his mowthe And the answerer owght to haue considered that the reason is generall whiche the prophetes vse which otherwise shoulde be no reason at all And it maye be shewed that the same manner off argument hathe bene vsed in thinges which are not off the substance off saluacion or damnation and wheroff there was no commaundement to the contrary In Iosuah the children of Israell are charged by the Prophete that they asked not counsaile off the mouthe off the lorde when they entred into couenant with the Gabeonites and yet that couenant was not made contrarie vnto anie comÌ„aundemeÌ„t of god For howsoeuer yt seemeth to some that vpon the wordes off Moses they owght to haue bene put to deathe being of those nations which dwelte in the inheritaunce off the people off god yet iff yt be considered what the causes were why they might not enter in to league with them which was lest they dwellinge amoÌ„gest them shoulde drawe them to a false worship of god yt will not be harde to vnderstande but that withe condition off yelding themselues bothe to the subiection of the Iewes and to their institution in the Religion of god as thes did they might be receiued There was in deede difference betweene these nations which dwelled in the lande off the inheritaunce off the children of Israel and which dwelt rounde abowte them For where the Iewes might make league with the nations rounde abowte them withowt anie their submission vnto Religion they coulde not doo so with the Cananites c. And where in other nations after peace refused the children off Israell hauing taken a cytie owght to kepe a liue women and children in these ether resistinge them or not submitting themselues vnto the seruice of god it was not lawful to spare ether wemeÌ„ or children But that it was simplie vnlawful for theÌ„ to make league with them vvith any condition I thinke yt can not be shewed for theÌ„ Iosue aÌ„d the princes shoulde haue doone euil to haue kepte their othe with them after they had vnderstanded their frawde cosidering that all othes made againste the comÌ„aundement of god are to be brokeÌ„ And if it be saide that Iosue and the princes did euil in keping their othe the approbation off that facte is apparant in an other place where the vengeance for the lorde fell vppon all Israell by famyn and vpon the housse off Saul particulerly by executing those off his familie because the gabeonites had bene coÌ„trary to the tenure of the
the same that I laye vnto him What ys indifferent yf that be not vvhich the scripture saithe not a vvorde of hathe not prescribed hathe not determined hathe not appointed all vvhiche phrases he vseth as those which signifie the same thinge And when he addethe in the ende that there is none so symple that vnderstandeth not that the churche hathe authoritie to take order in thes thinges dooth he not affirme the same for the churche hathe authoritie onely in indifferent thinges to take order So that it is more manifeste then the daie that which I haue charged him with ones he hathe saide twise althowghe not in the same yet in as full vvordes And where he asketh whether yt be all one to saye the scripture hathe not determined whether baptisme should be ministred opēly or priuately at home or in the churche and to saye the churche maye make baptisme priuate or publike verelie they are in mine and I thinke in all other indifferent iudgement all one and iff they were not yet as I haue shewed yow haue saide bothe the one and the other And vvhere yow saye that I therby giue the reader to vnderstande that yow affirme yt is in power off the churche to apointe that ther shoulde be no publicke baptisme althowghe I giue no more to vnderstande that then that yow affirme that it is in her power to appointe that ther should be no priuate baptisme yet all men see that this ys at the leste the weight off your wordes that althowghe the churche shoulde abvse her power in apointing alwaies priuate baptisme yet that must be obeied For as when yow saie that the scripture hathe not determined whether the communion shoulde be celebrated sitting standing or kneeling baptisme in fontes basons riuers c. Your meaning is to affirme that iff the churche will haue the communion alwaies receiued kneeling or baptisme alwaies ministred in basone that so it owght to be and neuer either stāding or sitting or in fontes so in saying that the scripture hathe not determined whether the preaching off the worde shoulde be publike or priuate c. and that the churche hathe the ordering of this thinge yow affirme that if the churche should allwaies ordeine that preaching and baptizing shoulde be priuate that so yt ought to be Iff yow had saide that yt had bene in the churches power according to the former rules prescribed to haue ordered whether preaching and administring the Sacramētes shoulde be in the towne or in the fielde in a churche as they call it or in some one mans house or other I wolde haue moued no question againste yow but when yow saye that yt is in the power off the churche to ordeine whether yt should be publike or priuate I can not abide yow for euen in the time of persequution when it is preached in the howse off a priuate man I haue shewed that the churche assembling there the meeting is publike wherunto yow answer not a worde Againste the place I alledged oute off Salomon he excepteth that it is strangelie applied and farr fetched Salomon in the chapter before had shewed how the harlot doothe lye in waite for men secrethe and in the nighte time and so pressed with conscience of the euill which she goethe abowte shunneth the lighte and sekethe secrete corners In the beginninge off this chapter he comparethe the wisdome off God in his worde vnto a noble woman whom he opposethe vnto the Harlot and shewethe How she off the contrary parte doothe not lie in waite or seeke corners or night to hide her selffe in or whisper in the eares off men but exalteth her voice and speakethe in the moste open places and corners off streates where the greateste concourse off people is wherupon it may appeare that iff the A. ether will or vnderstanding were at home and not far from him this place had bene nere enowghe the pourpose For iff the worde muste be taught in suche sorte as it maie beste be conueied vnto the knowledge of moste men and leste be charged with the seeking off corners or the couer off the night and yt is manifest that that is better doone when yt is preached publikly then when yt ys preached priuately yt must folowe that by that saying of Salomon yt is prescribed vnto the churche that the preaching owght to be publike And if there be not onely examples off Christe and off his Apostles but also a plaine commaundement as I haue shewed to preache the worde openly then yt folowethe that yf the churche haue power to order whether the worde should be preached publikely or priuately yt hathe power to order contrary to the commaundement of our sauiour Christe And where he saithe that the worde off god maye be taught prtuately and that a man may exhorte priuately that is nothing to the purpose For we speake of the order which owght to be keepte in the exercises that concerne the bodie off the churche and not of the priuate exhortations teachings and admonitions that ether the minister owght to vse towardes the seuerall persons off his flocke or one priuate man towardes another or the father off a howsholde in his familie c. And this is so farre from helping off him that it makethe altogether againste him For as yt is not in the churches power to forbyd thes priuate teachinges admonitions exhortations or to ordeine that thes teachings c. be publike because the lorde hathe commanded thē to be priuate so yt is not in her power to take awaie the publike preaching of the worde considering that the lorde also hathe commaunded yt And therfore yt ys vntrew which he set downe that the scripture hathe not determined whether the worde shoulde be tawght priuately or publikely For by priuate men yt hathe determined yt shoulde allwayes be doone priuately by publyke persons also yt shewethe how and in what case yt shoulde be spoken priuately and how and in what case publikely contrary wherunto the churche can not determine and iff she determine a 100. tymes she is not to be obeied And wheras vppon that that neither the place nor the nomber off Persons be off the substance off the wordes and Sacramentes he woulde conclude that it is in the power off the churche to make the preaching and administring off the Sacramentes publike or priuate he maye aswell saie which he saide in his former booke that yt is in the churches power to take order whether men and women shall come clothed or naked to receiued the Sacramentes considering that to come either clothed or naked is not off the substance off the Sacramentes Where he owght to vnderstande that there are diuerse thinges annexed and hanging by which being commaunded by the worde off god are no more in the churches libertie to alter then yt is in her power to change the daye into night Howbeit as I haue shewed that the place otherwise priuate being by the order of the churche appointed for the assemblie off
obserued The first proposition is manifest considering that the statutes off the Apostels are the statutes off Christ the seconde is Augustines allowed off the D. and iff bothe these be true then the third must needes be This being thus gathered that which I added that therupō yt folowed that there is no sufficient doctrine conteined in the scriptures is thus concluded That which doothe not conteine all the will off God necessarie for vs to doo conteineth no sufficiente doctrine vnto saluation but the scripture by Aug and the d. conteinethe not all the will off God necessary for vs to doo therfore the scripture by Aug. and the d conteineth no sufficient doctrine vnto saluation The first proposition is manifest in that S. Paul to deliuer him selffe from the gilte off bloude towards the Ephes alledgeth that he had taught them all the will off God the second foloweth off that which Aug. and the d. allowe for iff there be some thing commanded off the Apostells not conteined in the worde off God that being necessarie yt must folowe that some necessarie thing for vs to doo is not conteined in the worde And where the A. saithe that neither Aug. nor he say that any thinge not conteined in the scripture is so necessarie that it may not be altered vpon iust occasion by suche as haue autoritie he can not mocke the worlde after that sorte withe faste and loose at his pleasure For if they be statutes off the Apostels and commended vnto the churches what autoritie is there vppon earthe whiche can displace them which the apostels haue placed and iff it be madnes as he saith afterward owte off Augustin not to obserue them or once to reason off them how can they take order in them And this answer is ouerthrowne by the wordes off Augustin whiche folow immediatly But other things saith he vvhich are varied by regions as that some faste vpon the sabbothe daye some doo not c. are at libertie to bo obserued neither is there any better rule to a Christian man in thes then to do as the churche doothe vvhere he comethe Where it is manifest that he opposeth the tradition off the Apostels and ther statutes receiued by tradition vnto those thinges whiche are in the churches power to ordeine and to those wherin yt ys safe for vs to applie our selfes to the order off the churche They being therfore in this opposed the one beinge in the churches power the other are nor the one being of that sorte that off which side soeuer the churche determine off them a man may saflie obey the other muste needes be off that sorte that if the churche woulde otherwise ordeine of them then the Apostels that a man may not safely obey And in the nexte sentence the thinges which he opposethe those statutes off the Apostels vnto he calleth indifferent and therby giueth to vnderstande that he tooke them for vnindifferent and hitherto perteineth that he alledgeth owt off August in Zuinglius name and is found in his booke against the Donatistes where yt ys said that they are to be holden as giuen by Apostolicall autoritie Which is more then if he had said giuen by the Apostels considering that there are thinges giuen off the Apostels as counsailes and left at the churches order to chaunge vppon occasion as were the traditions which M. Caluin speaketh off but they were neuer left vnto the church with an Apostolical autoritie Which autoritie is off the higheste nature and proceding from the higheste court that can be And that this was Augustines meaning appeareth manifestly by the place which I alledged out of his booke againste the donatistes Where he saithe that all those thinges vvhich the churche houldeth generally are to be houlden as praeceptes off the Apostels althovvghe they be not vvriten wherunto he answereth nothing And by that place the folie off the answerer wherby he woulde tune Augustin by maister Caluins wreste is more plainly discouered For where he wolde haue vs thinke that August vnderstood those traditions onely which perteine to order and politie that may be varied and not vnto doctrine yt is manifest that Augustin in that place saithe that the Apostels gaue commaundement tovvching the not rebaptising off those vvhiche vvere baptized by Heretikes and that the custome of off the churche in not rebaptizing vvhich vvas obiected against Cyprian had the beginning off the Apostels tradition Nowe I would knowe off the answerer whether he dare saye that this iudgement off rebaptizing be off traditions which may be chaunged or whether there can be any iust cawse wherefore this may be altered And if he dare not saye this then let him confesse his faut and not seeke to make vp his breaches by sutche vntempered morter Where I saye that thereby there is a gate opened vnto the the Papistes to bring in vnder the colour off traditions all their beggery he answereth that the Papistes are rather confuted by this meanes considering that the Pope hath nether at all tymes nor in all places bene receiued Where to let pas that to helpe him selfe he addeth at all times which is not in Augustines rule he towcheth not the point off the cause For in that onely that it is saide that there be precepts off the Apostels vnto the church not cōteined in the word of God is pusshed at the strongest bulwarcke which the church hath to defend yt selfe against the Popishe beggerie and all other corruptions Which bullwarke is that whatsoeuer is commaunded of the Lorde vnto the church is conteined in the worde off god yff this be once shaken there is no sufficient resistance left vnto the church against this assaut For althoughe yt hath some great likelihood which hath bene generally and from the Apostels times receiued yet for somuche as yt is not vnpossible for the whole church to erre in some point and to haue taken vp or reteined off that which yt had before some thing not deliuered by the apostels it can be no sufficiēt bar to withstand the corruptions offred to be brought in by the Heretikes to saie that the church hath ether doon or not doon so and so sythēs the Apostels tymes And althoughe we might be assured that they are the precepts of the Apostels which haue bene so generally receyued yet the doore is not so close shut against corruptions as he pretendeth For this thing standing that there are cōmaundemēts giuen of the Apostels not cōteined in the word of god they may thrust in thinges which haue not had that generall and continuall obseruation For althowghe Aug. saie that they are the traditiōns of the Apostles which are generally receiued yet he dooth not saie that they onely are and the Heretikes whose corruptions should be repulsed in this respect that they haue not bene generally nor alwaies receiued might haue an easye replye that there is the same preiudice against certen off the commandementes off the Apostels committed to writing considering that
men beare witnes that bothe here and almoste euery where yow wringe my wordes clean contrary to my meaninge and therin I am well contente the Iudgemente remain with the reader And althowghe I am fully perswaded that ther was no occasion taken off euill by this doctrine yet if any weare it beinge the doctrine of the holy Goste whoso euer hathe taken occasion of euill hathe without repentance borne his punishemente and so shall yowe moste assuredly in that daye wherin the mouthe off wickednes shall be stopped Yt maie not be passed by that he in the begininge of the firste of thes sections matched the lawes off the Iewes whiche were the lawes gyuen by God him selfe vvithe the lawes of the moste barbarous and Prophane Tyrant that euer was suche is the reuerece he beareth to the lawes of god Note also that where I saie that I vvill ioyne vvithe him that the transgressions off the lavve vnder the gospell are to be seuerelyer punished then they vvere vnder the lavve He in pretendinge and makinge a brage that he woulde ioyne slyppethe me clean a syde and saythe that he will ioyne withe me that the magistrate is not bounde to the iudiciall lawe off Moses for the manner off punishinge as thowghe that were any thinge like that whiche I propounded And in that he answerethe no one worde to the two reasons whiche I alledged that is to saye for that bothe the knovvledge off the lavve is greater novve then thē and other gyftes off the spirite off God vvherby the lavve shoulde be better kepte more aboundantly povvred oute novve then then he dothe not onely slyppe a side but turnethe his blinde partes towardes me Nowe to returne backe to the Diuis pag. 123. I leaue to the iudgement off the reader howe importunate an aduersarie the D. is vvhich requireth answer of that which hath been so often answered In the next Diuis p. 124. seeking to mainteine his logicke in diuiding and defining he maketh him selffe pytifull to all that euer saluted that scoole For what an absurd saying is yt that becawse the definition off a generall thing agreeth vnto his particular therfore yt is the definition off the particular As though euery thing vvhich vvere verefied of an other were by and by the definition off it or as thoughe the same coulde be the definition of the generall and of the speciall And what a miserable defence of his diuisiō is yt which to proue that his three last partes are not conteined vnder the first alledgeth that they are not all one with the first But as I promised I will leaue this to the learned reader that I leese not the tyme in confuting off these tryfles The rest off his section is answered before In the next beside the sentence which I denie and he vntruly fathereth off Zuing. that in Ceremonies thinges are to be vsed in the church which are not conteined in the scriptures ▪ There is nothing which maketh any thing vnto the questiō For where he saieth that I mislike that of Zuing. If they be not repugnant to the vvord I haue tould him before that I neuer found fault with that but becawse he condēned the Ad. which will haue thē caste in the mould off the word off god And as for Maister Bezaes sentence repeted here off discipline left in the order off the church and that some thinges doon off the Apostles are not alvvaies to be follovved off vs whereby it seemed the D. would make the reader belieue that he meaneth this off the pointes of discipline nowe debated yff I should herein charge him with vntrue dealing vppon Maister Bezaes booke off epist. Which declareth in so many places and wordes that there is a Discipline off God left vnto his churche vnchangeable and precisely determined in the word off God and howe he maketh the partes thereoff the same which the D. fighteth against with might and maine he would paraduenture saie that he could take no notice off that which was not yet brought to light But when the same booke from whence he drewe thes outorities mainteneth those partes off discipline towching the Eldershipp the consent off the church in Eccesiasticall elections the right institution off Deacons c. as necessarye which he will haue arbitrarie he owght to haue vnderstanded that those thinges which M. Beza noteth vnder the name off Discipline left at the order off the church are nothing lesse then these which he would insinuate Which he might yet easelier haue vnderstanded by the place which he alledgeth out off the Corinthes that leaueth yt not in the churches power ether who shall gouerne or what they ought to doo which must gouerne but howe that gouernement which is prescribed may be vsed most decently in regard off circumstance off time c. For euen in that place the Apostle defining off certen pointes of discipline as that vvemen ought not to speake in the church c. declared sufficiently that he ment not to leaue the gouernement off the church in her owne disposition and order But what M. Beza ment by this arbitrarie Discipline yt shall yet better appeare in the next tractate off the Election off the church where this here spoken generally shall there belaied open by example the reste off this Diuis is answered In the next Diuis I leaue yt to the iudgement off the reader whether I haue truly gathered off his wordes As for the defense he maketh to proue Truly and Purely all one for so he must if he mainteine his answer the first reason he bringeth that a man may preache true thinges and not truly is cleane ouerthrowne by his owne answ for to ouerthrowe that which he falsely attributeth vnto the Adm. that the word is not truly preached becawse the Ministers are not duely called he saithe that the reason is not Good becawse ho we wicked soeuer the man be which preacheth yet he may preache the true word off God. Here ether the Ans must make to preache true thinges and to preache truly all one or els he hath not answered to the argument he supposeth the Adm. to vse The other is for that S. Paul vseth these wordes in truthe for syncerely Wherein beside the former fault which is the contrarietie with him selfe he should haue learned that that maner off speach is taken off the Ebrues which as they call a lie not onely that which is spokē but that which is doon or imagined against the truthe so likewise contrary Which maner off speach not being receiued in our tounge is fondly and out off time pretended considering also that the translatiōs in our tounge as in others haue shunned that phrase as that which they could not reache vnto Tract 2. and 3. according to the D. Off election of the minister Cap. 1. Diuis 1. Off the Tryall off ministers in learning and conuersation THe replie standeth vpon the certeine and vnfallible grounde off the worde off God which is that the
to the bishoppes alone is made off custome that is twise a yeare at the least iff any come at the intreaty off some in authoritie of tentimes and not vpon any neede off the churche For when almoste is the request of suche as be in authoritie refused in that election In deede there is no extreme sute the doore is not so harde locked ther neadeth but the liftinge vp off the latche And yt is also I graunte withowt contention For howe can the bishope contende with him sele Vnles he and his conscience sometimes fall owte which cōtention is to be wisshed that it were greater And set me all the borowghes and cities together in the whole realme where elections passe by voice yowe shall finde they can not all afforde so many vnworthy officers as haue swarmed ministers from the sole election of the moste parte off the bishopes in Englande Yf yowr affirmaciōs be so clear that yowe dare com̄itte thē so barely withowte profe to the iudgemēt of mē I dare with better reason let these goe which are donne before the sonne in the conscience off all men which the brwte beastes them selues woulde witnes iff they coulde speake Yf he be condemned off the Apostell which iudgeth off one mans action before the time that is before he seeth what it i◠▪ what great presumption ys it thus to iudge the churche off God And therfore that I be no partaker off yowr sinne and plage which withowt repentance ensueth I answer that I thinke they will chuse the meteste that they will followe the lorde before the lorde of the towne yf the lorde off the towne drawe not with the Lorde that they will not doe one off their neighbours pleasure to the dishonour off the lorde and the hurte off all them selues and the whole congregation that the peace off God not contention will be in the churche off God that they being the church off God and the mysticall bodie off our fauiour Christe shall haue an hable and fit pastor if they haue one lyke vnto them selues and so shal be like people like pastor And iff a whole churche assembled together in the feare off God with inuocation off his name be ouercaried by affection off loue or feare to chose him that ys vnmeet the bishope maie muche more beinge but one man subiecte to the same passions they be onles yow can happely shewe some prerogatiue to exempte him from the common infection So for any thinge yet alleadged the lighte off reason rather fauoureth the election off the minister by many then by one Nowe let vs see whether the holie scriptures wheruppon wee laie the weighte off this election receiue any better answer To youre answere to the ◠and sixte off the Actes yow haue my replye before And where yow add further to the firste off the Actes that Maister Beza saithe that they were not presented by the multitude but by the Apostels onely I know not wherfore yow shoulde bringe that in For I say not that the multitude had the presentation yt appeareth manifestly that no one had the handlinge of that action which striketh the bishopes sole election to the harte yt appeareth also that the iudgement and consente of the churche was required which is that wee desire Maister Beza writeth thus Augustine vvith vvhome this vvhole chapiter is reade very corruptly interpreteth this vvorde they set vpp he set vp not vvithovvt a daungerous error for here vvas nothinge done off Peter by him selfe as one endevved vvith greater dignitie but euerie thinge is done publikely and by voices off the vvhole churche Vppon the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he saithe thus The strenght off this vvorde vvhich is to ordeine by voices is to be noted that vve maye knovve that Paule and Barnaba◠did nothīg by their ovvne priuate pleasure nor exerciced no tyrāny in the churche as the Romishe Harlot dothe novve and his assistants vvhich they call ordinaries And in other place vppon the wordes lay not thy handee suddenly vpon any c. That is saithe he admitte not all vvithovvt choise to any Ecclesiasticall function as muche as in the liethe For all the authoritie vvas not in Timothie but after the election made by voices off the vvhole churche as vve haue saide of the electiō in the 14. of the Actes ād as appeareth by the election off Matthias and the Deacons he that gouerned the cōpanie in the name of the vvhole Eldershipe did by the putting on off his handes consecrate hym that vvas chosen And in an other place were the apostle willeth Titus that he shoulde appointe elders tovvne by tovvne he referreth the reader to his exposition off the place off the 5. to Timothy and the 14. off the Actes And in the same chapiter owte off the whiche maister D. hathe borowed this place he sheweth that albeit all those thinges are not allwaies to be followed whiche were done in the apostolicall elections notwithstanding that they had one vnchangeable ende and asking what that was he answereth amongest other this that nether pastors nor Deacons shoulde be thruste vppon the flocke againste the vvill theroff And after in the same chapiter he saithe plainely that it is tyranny that the gouuernours off the churche shoulde be geuen vnto the churche vvithovvte the consent theroff also that it belongethe to the Presbytery to choose the offices off the churche when they be voide There are a nomber off moe places to be foūde in hī to this pourpose that I may leaue owt heare it epistle in his boke of epist. because I suppose yt is in euery mans handes which is moste cleare for the deciding of this cōtrouersie To come therfore to the examination off this dealinge fyrste in that he saith that it had bene a dangerous error if S. Peter had done any thinge off his ovvne authoritie withowt the assistance of other the Apostels in that he saithe that Timothie had not not onely not the election off the ministers but not the ordination in his povvre but that whiche he did he did in the name off the reste off the eldershipe and in that he saithe yt belongethe chefly to the office of the elders to chuse the offices of the churche as ofte as they be voide and addethe that he neuer founde in any Christian churche established that kinde off election vvhiche is in the povvre one yt is cleare that he vtterly condemnethe as altogether vnwonted as vsurped as tiran̄icall that election whiche is made by the bishope alone and that this is one of the substantiall poinctes off a lawfull Ecclesiasticall election that it be donne by the Eldership Secondly in that he saithe yt vvas the vnchangable pourpose off the Apostels to prouide that the gouernours off the churche shoulde not be thruste vppon the churche againste her vvill that Paule and Barnabas to then-tente they vvoulde bringe in no tyrannie into the churche permitted the election off the elders vnto the voices theroff
some reason and will yow cast yt awaie with a worde But the order of trying his gifte off expounding is good and for the moste parte necessarie For althowghe yt may be perceiued by questioning shortly with him what his vnderstanding is in the misterie off Christ yet his vtterance disposition and memorie giftes necessarie for a minister can not be tried but by suche a profe or by long acquaintaunce with him which can be seldome betwene the ordeiners and him that is to be ordeined And iff in well ordered cities ther is no man admitted to set vpp in any mysterie onlesse he haue offered to the Maisters off the companie some worke for a masterpeece and declaration that he hathe skil in that he will open his shop for how muche more in the ministerie off God owght it to be prouided that before he be allowed to worke in the great misterie off our saluation and laye hand to the framyng of the siluer vessels of the church off God the maisters off the companie especially whiche are the Elders off the church being best able to iudge owght to haue triall how he handleth the goulden hammer off the word off God. But if M. D. which at other times loseth the corde off lawfull vocation will here to pinche me vvith all girde it so streight I answere that neither he which is to be admitted doth it withowt vocation being therunto called by those whiche haue to doo in the electiō nether doo they admit him withowt warrant of the word of god For the lord in com̄aunding to take a sufficient triall of his abitilie ād that precisely before he be admitted doth in that commaundement include all thinges that pertaine therto For as vvhen any peace off grownd is giuen vnto one ther is also a waye to come vnto it graunted withall althowghe the same be not mentioned so the lord in giuing to his church power to trie his ministers can not by any meanes bethowght to haue hedged vp the way which leadeth neerest vnto that triall And beside the reason heroff owt off the word off God ioyned with the practise off diuerse churches We haue plaine examples in the scripture as I haue shewed in my former booke And how dothe not the A. here condemne manifestly the exercise of common place vsed in the vniuersities wherin younge men that they might he better prepared for the ministerie do interprete in there courses the scriptures which haue no admittance or ordination vnto the ministerie I will let yow passe heere with this contrarietie with yowr selffe that yow graunt to euery minister the rule off his flock whiche deni it so stoutlie in other places where yow giue it to the Bishops and Archbishops If yow had found suche a one in me yow would haue made suche hue and crie sufficient to haue raised a whole countrey But I will not presse your contrarieties but wher they be pregnant And so I leaue it to the iudgement off the indifferent reader how well the answerer hathe mainteined the wantes off the booke which were by me in this behalffe assigned Their wordes are to be seene my replie and your answer let the world iudge what forehead there is in him which saith they condemne all as euill and as vnlearned lest I spend moe wordes in prouinge that it is light at noone daies There is more likelehoode that for want of iust triall they might be thowght to denie a lawfull callinge to those which are admitted by the common order But it followeth not theroff that they saie there are none lawfullie admitted for the cause before alledged And it is vnreasonable yow should charge them vvith that vvhich I vvrite or vvith that the second admonition vvriteth Touching the nombre off sufficient ministers in Fraunce I wrote that vvhich I receiued wether it be trew or no it may easely be knowen of those vvhich vvill enquire off it Take yow good leaue to speake all good off the vniuersitie it shal be my recreation after your importunate barkinges yt is my dailie praier it may goo well with her and althowghe I be from her yet I caried some of her boweles vvith me so that whether there be in her either iust cause of ioye or sorowe I haue them in com̄on with her I can take no exceptiō vnto yowr 450. vniuersitie preachers not hauīg the register of the vniuersitie but yow did warely saie knowē preachers and not godly preachers for some of those haue troubled the vniuersitie and other places with popishe leauen of pargatorie free will ād Abrahams besome cut owt by a larger measure then euer our sauiour Christ taught But to le◠the corruption off some and the inhabilitie off other some with the so rare preachinge off certeine that as at the appearinge off a comete or blasinge starr or some other notable change in the heauens so at their preaching there may be feare off some calamitie to come to let all those goe to helpe to make vp this garlond off 450. yow owght not haue forgotten to subducte those which are taken awaie by death those vvhich are thrust owt off the ministerie and musled by the bishops those which are mued in cloisters those which beside the necessarie vse off the vniuersitie remaine there and those vvhich hauing charges in the countrey lurke there These being subducted excepte the accomptes doo rise better then yow shew I feare me that I may cut of from the numbre of 2000. hable ministers in the whole church of Englād which I assigned before as many as yow take from that nombre which I reported to be in Fraunce And alas what are these fiue loues and 2. fishes to so many thowsand churches So that if yow had not doone it at vnwares and had not had an other ende then is false owt we should haue had to thāke yow for this leuie of ministers vvhich the vniuersity hathe bred as that which strēgtheneth the fewnes off hable ministers which I assigned M. D. hand is still on his halfepennie and as Plautus Euclio he suspecteth euery man for his treasure and by putting his hand so often to the sore vvhen he is not touched he declareth plainely vvhat is the greife The feare of spoile off the churches goodes is not vvithowt cause But there was no cause to suspecte it in the Innes off court which off their yearly exhibitions giuen to mainteine there studies haue erected vp three diuinitie lectures more for any thing I know then all the bishops haue doone Therfore yow euill requite this liberalitie with such suspitions Yf the Centurion deserued praise for building a Synagoge and is cōmended by the holie Gost to all posteritie for his liberalitie in prouidinge a place for the preachinge off the word then they for there liberalitie in prouidinge for the minister him selfe deserued a better gratulation then this Yf they had throwen in somewhat into the Corban and botomlesse bagge it should haue bene counted to them for
great liberalitie But this aide which the church getteth by encrease off godlie and hable Ministers receiueth litle thanck But the hatred off this cause draue yow headlonge vpon them as your aduertismentes vvhich followe doo declare As there are some among them that fauour this cawse so there are some that like not off it And yet seing they haue ioined togither yea vvhich is verie straunge made great sute vnto the Bishops that they might of there owne charges prouide suche as in seruinge off them might discharge that vvhich the bishop hath charged him selfe with your suspition off spoilinge the church might haue had a fitter lighting place then vpon the Innes off courte Thus muche against your disordered suspition not altogether from my purpose for it shall serue to shew wherupon I conceiued so good hope of them and off other the gentrie off the realme vvhich haue in diuerse places made the same contribution Yf any haue forsaken the ministerie withowt iust cause they are giltie off a horrible fault but I see yow accounte them forsakers off the Ministerie vvhich yow haue thrust owt suche is your equitie to vvhipp them owt and for going owt also And if they hould any off your tenthes and would be counsailed by me they should yelde them into your handes least in beinge partaker off your non residencie they drink also off plages which belonge therto Wher yow saie I haue not answered in deede if your one mā be wise ād godly and the hūdreth fooles and wicked I haue said nothinge nor meane not now to doo being worthier to be hissed owt then to be answered Yow saie that the 16. Actes ▪ sheweth how well Timothy was thowght off a noble interpretation This is allwaies your fashion either to corrupte the places of the scripture or els to tell that which no man dowbteth of But for what cause dothe S. Luke tell that he was so well thowght of dothe he not shew in the nexte ver to be the same which I haue alledged And therfore Master Beza regardinge the meaninge of S. Luke addeth the word therfore declaringe for what cause that testimoniall was giuen This is your reason S. Luke sheweth how well Timothy was thowght off therfore yt is vntrew that S. Paul to cut of all occasion off euill speache receiued him not but vpon commenmendation off the brethren bothe in Listra and Iconium I doe not saie that S. Paul would not haue receiued him vnlesse that euerie singuler person had giuē testimonie vnto him vvhich was in those places but I shewed how circunspecte S. Paul was in takinge any into any part off the ministerie and how it is not to be thowght that he would haue vppon the Testimonie off one proceeded vnto any election seing that in one which he him selfe was not ignorant what he was to auoid the euill speache off some he was carefull to haue the testimonie off the church As it cā not be proued ▪ that he would not haue receiued him if all had not consemed therto so may it easely be shewed that if the most part had not liked of him he would not haue taken him For besides that it was against S. Paules maner to doo any thing off his owne priuate authoritie in the church off God it had not bene aduisedly done to haue procured the testimonie off the church for the admitting off him into his companie if the churche not consentinge he would haue taken him for that would haue bred a great flame off displeasure betwene the church and S. Paul and should haue bene alwaies shot in the mouthe off the aduersaries against the authoritie of Timothes ministerie yea off Paules also vnto whom he was ioyined for that he had receiued one disaproued of the Christians them selues All which he might by your iudgement easely haue auoided iff either he would haue rested in his owne knowledge off him or els haue addressed him selfe to some one for his testimonie ād not to haue hazarded the alienatiō of the church by com̄ittinge the allowāce of Tim. vnto their testimonial But mine argument is nothinge worthe because it is drawen off an acte off the Apostle Yf this be trew S. Luke was euil aduised to in title his booke the act or deedes of the apostles For it is as much in the ans lāguage as a booke of deedes which christiā mē are not boūd to followe ād yet it was not withowt cause that whē there are cōteined in that booke bothe the doctrine and deedes of the Apost S. Lu. as off the greater parte intitled his booke the deedes or actes of the apostles wherfore dothe he in the begin̄ing of that booke repeating the sum̄e of his gospell by that transition or passage make one bodie of them bothe and bind them as it were in one volume was it not to giue the same authoritie vnto the one a◠to the other to shew that the church had wanted so muche of a perfecte directiō as it wanted of that storie Wherfore dothe he in the begin̄inge shew that our Sau. Christ instructed thē with the cōmaundementes thowchinge his kingdome was it not to teache vs that whatsoeuer they did in buildīge of the church they did it not of there owne heades but by his authoritie And if a cōmanndemēt vnto them be not a commaundemēt vnto vs then haue we no word in the Scripture to warrant baptisme with For the commaundement of baptisinge was spoken to the Apostles onely withowt any further lymytation Fynally vvherfore dothe S. Luke set owt the Apostles fylled vvith the holye Goste Was yt onely to gyue credyte vnto there doctryne that yt should be beliued and not vnto there Actes that they should be folowed yes assuredlie vnto there acres that they should of euerie one according to his vocation where they maye be folowed For the further confirmation wheroff yt ys to be consydered what S. Paul vvrote vnto Tymothe Whom he instructynge how he should behaue hym selffe towardes the troublers off the church dothe not onely call him to the regard off his doctrine but also his conduite or maner off doing Wherby he meant to note his order and maner off doyng in the church off God and publykly for yt could be smally otherwise to the purpose off that vvherfore yt ys alledged Sanct Paules pryuate doynges could gyue Tymothy lytle instruction how he should behaue hym selfe towardes the troublers off the Church To the Phillippians also he callethe the Bishoppes Deacons and whole church both to doing off that which they heard and which they had sene in hym Yf therfore S. Paul will haue the churches followe that vvhich he did amongest them yt ys manifest that the Actes off the Apostles are rules for vs to followe And vnlesse this be admitted I would gladly learne off M. D. Where in all the scripture he can proue the imposition of handes which I think he will not denie to be necessarie And this is that vvhich M. Caluin doth flatly
that mynisterie So that yf they vvoulde conclude any thinge off that example they muste conclude that the churche maie chuse one which yt thincketh vvill deceyue the truste that ys laide vppon him I coulde here dispute vvhether althowghe he repented trewlie yet forsomuche as he is subiecte to another suche fall as well as any other yt vvere boothe lesse daunger for hym and les hurte for the churche to receiue suche an ouerthrowe vnder an other capitayne neuer foiled then vnder him vnder whoÌ„ yt hathe already bene put to flighte But forsomuche as yt is not so cleare and requireth a longer discourse I am contente to let that passe Yet that maye not be omitted that as in the refusall off a minister which hathe defyled hym selfe withe Idolatrie prouision is made for the safety and securitie of the churche so an eye ys had to a more plentifull fruicte which maie redounde vnto it by hym that is placed in the ministrie And forasmuche as no smale portion off that shoulde be by greate likelihoode turned a waie by restoring suche one as hathe fallen so grieuously amongest other reasons that also hathe force to hinder his restirucion For vvhen S. Paule requireth aucthoritie in a deacon purchased by continuall tenor and as yt weere by an euen thread of a holye and innocente liffe that he might vvithe greater libertie and boldnes execute his office he sufficiently declarethe that suche a fall especially in the bishoppe and mynister taken in the race off his ministerie maketh a deepe wounde into that authoritie and freedome off rebukinge others which is necessary for hym for furtherance off hy mynistry to retaine And as yt taketh awaie from his freedome in reprehending so that which he reprehendethe hathe so muche lesse aucthoritye withe the hearer as yt is not onlye not confyrmed but contraried by his example And yf Tymothe beinge endewed with suche rare gyftes off knowledge and holynes off lyffe had muche a doo to mainteine his authoritie in the churche againste the contempte of his yowthe which was no faulte he had neede haue very extraordinarie gyftes which can deliuer hys mynisterie from contempte ten folde more occasioned by suche a fall then by wante of a fewe years Seinge therfore the vvounde beinge healed by repentance the skarr dothe yet remaine in the eyes of the churche to the blemishinge of his Mynistrie yt ys good he be taken downe and set in some les lightesome place off the churche off God. There was yet a thirde reason vvhiche no doubte moued the churches to keepe this order that this barre off hym from the mynistrie vvhiche had so fallen mighte serue for example vnto other mynisters to take heede For they consydered well that as common wealthes so the churches of God are preserued by rewarde and punishement and that as in the rewarde off some other are prouoked to make after those thinges vvhich are by that rewarde crowned so by the punishement off some other are terrified from doinge that for whiche they see them dishonored Therfore they thowghte yt vnmete that he which had faulted in the qualytie off a mynister shoulde no other wise be disciplined then a pryuate person but rather as his faulte exceded so his correction shoulde encrease Whiche thinge beinge so muche commended in common wealthes well gouerned I see no cause why yt shoulde not be as conueniente in the churche off God so farre and in suche kinde off corrections as are in the churches power And therfore yt appeareth that the commaundemente which is gyuen in Ezethiell and in the booke off the kinges for the separatinge off the Leuytes from their Ministerie which had fallen to Idolatrye was not a lawe for a tyme but drawne from the springe off that equytie which can not be changed And so farr is yt that the gospell hath made this lawe voide that yt hathe also confyrmed yt for yf the ministerie off the lawe were so gloriouse that yt vvoulde not be handled off those which had once fallen from yt by Idolatrie althowghe they did repente howe muche more owghte the mynystrie off the gospell which so surmounteth the mynisterie off the lawe as the gospell dothe the lawe be vntowched off suche as forsaking yt haue defyled them selues with that synne And if for a lesse faulte they were kepte from a lower place in the church for a greater faulte shoulde not they muche more be kepte from a higher dignitie for wheras nowe the seconde tyme he faithe that vnder the lawe there were certeine corporall pollutions which made a man vncleane for a tyme yt proceadethe of too great ignorance off the Scripture either in not knowing in what shorte tyme those polutions mighte be purged or els assigning anie cawse off the Leuytes putting forthe off their ministrie for euer for the polutions which were in so fewe dayes clensed Yowr allegatioÌ„n owte off maister Caluin towching the widowes is nothing for yow nothing to the cause For what if he saye that the Apostell requireth that they shoulde be benyficiall doothe yt therfore followe that respecte shoulde not be had into their vvhole life Yt may be easely vnsterstaÌ„ded that the apostel hauing drawne the office off a wydowe throwghe diuers sortes of good workes becawse yt had bene to longe to recyte all shutteth vp vvith that clause as yf he shoulde saie that I stande not in rehersall off all I will haue her suche as hathe exercised her selfe in euery good worke But I desire the reader to obserue the vnfaithfullnes and open corruption that he vseth in cyting off maister Calu. For his iudgement being not called for but answere required to the wordes of S. Paule he hath taken that which serueth not to the purpose and hathe lefte owte that in the exposition of the same verse which is directly againste that he alledgeth maister Caluin for Whose wordes are these There is no dovvbte bâ—t there vvere vvorshipfull and very reuerent colledges or companies off vvidovves therfore Paule vvill haue none chosen thether but such as be commended by a notable testimonie off their vvhole former lyfe And wheras he asketh howe coulde that be when they had but one parte off theire lyfe knowen Christe not to speake off the Iewishe widowes which might haue led their whole life in good and holy worckes in deede he muste learne that S. Paule dothe not there speake onely off good workes which are the fruictes of faithe but callethe those good workes whiche are cyuilly and in owtewarde shewe and estimacion off men good So that he requireth that those onely be chosen emongest the weomen which were neuer detected off any notable cryme but haue allwaies lyued in an honeste cyuill behauiour amongest their neighboures And thus S. Luke calleth those vveomen religious and honeste which were moued to persequte S. Paul. There was nether trewe Religion nor honestie in them but so he calleth them because they were so estemed S. Paul also saithe off him selffe when he was the enemy off
voice off the vvhole brother hood and by the iudgemente off those bishopps vvhich vvere presente and vvhich had vvritten vnto yovv off him c. Thus therforey may be reasoned that was the ordinance off God vvhiche Cyp. taught to haue bene practised by thos examples for he stil coupleth them together withe his doctrine giuē before and groūded owte of the booke of nūbers But he taught that in thes examples the people were not onely presente at the choise but also gaue their voices therfore it was Gods ordinance not onely that that the people shoulde be presente but also that they shoulde chuse And here yt is againe to be obserued that this is another off the popishe shiftes for vnto Luther whiche alledgeth that the people owghte to chuse there minister leste the churche shoulde despise or hathe him vvhich is thruste vppon it vvhilest it mighte not haue him whom yt desyred Pighius answereth that the meaninge off those wordes be that the people shoulde be presente and beare witnes and the same answer is made by other Papistes to other testimonies which are browghte This by the waie that it maie be knowen from whence the Ans prouision comethe Nowe to procede Where he saithe that the people had no voices in Eleazars election I aske him howe he prouethe that If he answer because it is not mentioned in the scripture he hathe answered hym selfe more then twentie times when he saieth that it is an euill argumente to reason negatiuely off the scriptures Let him now take this answer That there was no like necessitie off examininge Eleazars ministrie by voices as ther is off other ecclesiasticall electione forsomuche as he was chosen by the voice off God whiche coulde not be deceiued But Cyprian did well see that if the lorde vvoulde not haue the iudgemente off the churche passed by in those which he him selfe had chosen by his voice from heauen muche les vvoulde he haue any minister thruste vpon the churche againste her will in elections vvhich are made by men withowte suche speciall direction Nowe as this interpretation off the A. is directly againste the wordes off Cyprian directly againste his meaninge shewed forthe by practise and examples so dothe yt directly ouerthrowe the whole scope vvhiche Cyprian alledgeth those wordes for which is that he mighte therby vvithdrawe the churches from communicatinge with the ministerie of those vvhiche had fallen seinge they mighte bothe put them owte and chuse other in their places For if he mente the churche shoulde stande by to see vvho vvere chosen and to obiecte againste him if neede required albeit not thus muche was euer obserued of our bishops tel me who are they Cyprian mēt shoulde chuse magistrate there was none The eldershippe the D. dare not saie for he trembleth at the verie name of it I dare saie his meaninge is to gratifie the bishoppe withe this morsell but yt will choke him if he swallowe yt Yt is the porcion off a nomber and therfore if it coulde be caried from the churche It muste come vnto the bishops that dwell rounde abowte that churche where the election is to be made And if the election and depriuation by Cyprians minde be in their handes howe hathe the people powre to chuse and refuse For if they woulde they coulde neither depriue the presente incumbente nor depriuinge him chuse another Anye off thes thinges ouerthroweth Cyprians drifte and armeth the people withe replies againste his exhortacion namelie that they communicated withe their poluted minister becawse yt is not in them to depose him but in the Bishoppes rounde abowte yt is not in them to chuse another but in the Bishopps Therfore his reprehension and exhortation shoulde haue beene directed againste the bishopps and not againste them And so it is manifeste both by the wordes and whole drifte off Cyprian that his iudgemente was that by the ordinance off God in Ecclesiasticall elections the consente and iugemente off the churche is necessarie The Cuckoe is heere come againe for looke the D. booke and yow shal see ether the same wordes or at leste the same matter withowte any addition Which are heere in the 1. 2. 3. 4. sect off this diuis In the 164. and 165. pag. sect 1. 2. Yow haue yt set before yow almoste all againe This is not Colewortes twise but thrise sodden Yt behoueth that he imagine a great famine of learned writinges that dare thus abuse the cares and leysure off his reader Touching the variety of Electiōs which he citeth out of M. Caluin onles as vnnatural weomen doo their children conceiued in adultry he purpose to make awaie withe his cause I knowe not what he shulde meane to offer yt thus into the handes off her enemies For he writeth thus in that place alledged In oulde tyme ther vvas none receiued not so muche as in to the nomber off clerkes vvithovvte the consente off the people so that Cyprian doothe diligentlie excuse him selfe that he had appoincted Autelius a reader vvithovvte aduise off the churche And so rehersing Cyprians wordes after he addethe But becavvse in those smaller exercises there vvas no greate danger for that both they vvere in dailie tryall and the function vvas not greate the consente off the people ceased to be asked And by those small exercises yt muste needes be he meaneth the Acoluthes the Exorcistes and the Readers whiche maie appeare to haue beene in Cyprians tyme by his Epistles And maie yet better appeare wheras Maister Caluin shewinge the cause why the people was not so carefull in that behalfe off retaininge their righte saithe For there vvas none made subdeacon vvhich vnder that seueritie off discipline that vvas then had not gyuen longe experience off him selffe in the clerkshipp and after he vvas tried in the subdeaconshippe he vvas made deacon So that yt is manifeste that by the order off Clerkes there he meaneth those whiche were vnder the degree of a subdeacon He saith also that aftervvardes the people did permitte the iudgemente and choise off other orders likevvise vnto the bishope and elders excepte the bishoppricke or vvhē any nevve elders vvere appoincted where firste yt makethe directly againste yow that in times paste not so muche as a poore Exorciste or reader was chosen withowte the consente off the people Secondly that he saithe Cyprian did excuse him selfe vnto the people that he had chosen Aurelius implyinge therby that althowghe he had some reason to leade him to doo so yet he was in the peoples daunger Thirdly that yt was the peoples righte in that they permitted this powre vnto others Fourthly that this righte was giuē to the elders ād not to the bishop alone as yowe woulde haue yt Laste of all that bothe the choise of the bishoppe and elder remained in the powre off the people Wherfore yow vntrwly reporte when yow saie that the people committed the choise vnto the bishopes and elders excepte yt were in the election off the bishoppe
notwithstanding the misteries of God as the children of God them selues And althowghe the persequution shoulde giue some aduancement to knowledge that waies yet it hindreth more otherwaies in that it letteth the often meetinges to heare the vvorde of God vvherby knowledge is bredd in that also pouertie wher with it is cōtinually yoked draweth many cares for this present life for them and theirs Likwise continuall feare they be in euen duringe the time of their meetinges for the vvorde off God enemie vnto the vnderstanding and puttinge to flighte the powres of the minde vvherwith knowledge is gotten and also the often and soudein shiftinges from place to place muste needes be a lett to that tainment off knowledge in the vvord off god Where yow call vpon answer vnto your reason yow haue it that the time off peace drawethe no more ignorance in the professors off the gospell then the time of persequution and therfore the difference between thes times in that poincte to be euill assigned I alledged also that the elections off the bishoppes vvere so euill and of so vnfitte persones that althowgh the election off the churche shoulde swarue muche yet it can hardly choose vvorse then the bishopes doo wherunto yow answer not The distinction of being of the churche and in the church I browghte and allowed of it yet as thowgh yow had browght it and I refused it yow labour in confirmation of it But that which needeth yowr helpe and for proofe wherof I aske some testimonie of scripture that Idolaters and papistes are in the church is not proued As for dronkardes and whoremongers 2c Yt is spoken off before close papistes and Atheistes which dissemble their vvickednes are in the nomber off Hipocrites and therfore muste be holden to be in the church vntil the Lorde discouer them For professed Papistes and Atheistes which neuer made profession off the gospell it is not needefull to waite for the sentence off excomnnication to cut them of seinge they vver neuer of the church If notwithstandinge their professed enemitie vnto the gospell they should be accounted off the church because they agree to heare the worde and receiue the sacrament with vs then a Turcke or a Iew professinge his Turkisme or Iudaisme if he be contented to heare the worde and receiue the Sacrament is so also to be accoumpted Which if it be absurd it can be no good reason to saie that they owghte therfore to be holden off the churche because they are in some respectes contente to he are the worde and receiue the Sacramentes And I vvoulde gladly learne where the Lord hath vvilled vs so to caste awaie the vse of our iudgement that when men make open profession that they are members off the bodie of the Pope which is Antchriste yet wee muste accounte off them as off members off Christe or howe this is to iudge iustlie Yow are very vnfaithfull in reporting my wordes continually I nether saie that Hypocrites onely are in the church and not of yt and the place in the margent I alleadge to another purpose then yow affirme that is to proue that the papistes and Idolaters beinge vvithowte haue not to doo with the church nor the churche vvith them where yow woulde proue by those wordes if any brother be an Idolater that Idolaters maie be in the churche yow muste vnderstand firste that it is one case off him that hath giuen his name to the gospell and afterward slydeth from that profession to Idolatrie and another of him vvhich neuer gaue it but hath bene from his infancie an Idolater For althowghe the firste can not be seuered from the church withowt solemne sentence of excōmunication because by a publike profession off the trwth he was once receiued into the bodie therof yet there is not lyke reason off him which was neuer so setled And this differēce Saint Paule dooth make when he giueth leaue to a Christian to haue to doo with an Idolater of the worlde that is which hath not bene of the churche and yet will not suffer him to haue to doo with one which is famously knovven for so the the word signifieth to be a brother Wheruppon followeth that forsomuche as our Idolaters professinge their poperie still are not nor can not be famously knowen for professors off the gospell this place of S. Paule openeth no dore for them to enter into the churche Furthermore yt muste be obserued what kinde off Idolatrie yt is which Saint Paule saithe maie fall into a brother and yet he reteine the name of brother This appeareth vpon the discourse he maketh in that Epistle to haue bene onely a sittinge downe to eate at the feaste of Idolaters made in honour of their Idoles withowt any honour doone to idoles by sacrifice or bodily vvorship and vvithowt anie conscience of that meate more then of other Which althowghe he proue a spice of Idolatrie yet was yt one of the leasie and lighteste kindes and such as holdinge stil the foundacione off Christianitie coulde not vvithowt obstinacie in it cut from the church Wherby falle the owte that the papistes vvhich in their Idolatrie rase the foundations of trewe religion can not by that place come into anie accounte off the church off God. For the first place off Maister Caluin that there are in the Church contemners off God and vvhich lyue dissolutely if the S. had added the nexte wordes that suche ovvght vvith all diligence to be taken avvaie by excommunication he might haue bene as hamed to alledge this sentence to so small purpose The other that Saint Paul meaneth the absteining from a disordered brother off priuate societie and not of the publicke communion yt is true in deede but to no purpose For withal he confesseth that the other owght to be seuered from the communion But forasmuche as it is not in the power of a priuate man to excommunicate that perteining as he saith vnto whole bodie off the churche by whose cōsent yt owght to be doone and yet in his power to kepe him selfe from his priuate societie he concludeth against the Anabapt which absteined from the holy cōmunion if any liuing offensiuely were receiued that it folowed not because S. Paul woulde haue one absteine frō priuate familiaritie therfore he would haue him absteine from the communion Which is no parte off our question and is too shamefully alledged considering that the place making nothing to this question striketh starcke dead another off his cawses towching the sole excommunication of the bishopp And althowghe it be owte off place yet hauing gotten the booke yt shall not be vnprofitable to admonishe the reader off the S. vnfaithfull dealing in his former allegations off Maister Caluin for vvhere pa. 81. he to conclude that the discipline is not of the substantiall notes of the churche alledgeth a sentence owt off this booke beside that I haue shewed how euill he concludeth off his wordes it is to be noted that in the same
that he hath taught that Sainct Paule commaundeth that they and in them all bishoppes shoulde onely chuse Wherby are condemned all election by the church as those which haue intruded vppon the bishoppes possession Where he saith that the Adm. dothe coulorably affirme by thes wordes thautoritie is gyuen to the bishopp alone c. that the right off orderinge ministers doth at no hand apperteine vnto the bishopp I would knowe what word there is heere where this coulor is to bee seene aÌ„d what light he is able to giue vs to make yt appeare The other sentence wherwith he woulde proue yt followeth after nether was he come vnto yt Yf he did therfore confute that it is as straunge as iff a man shoulde shutte off and spende his arrowes or euer he come within the reach off his enemie And I thinke there is no example off suche confutation onles he had coupled that place with this and comparinge them together sett vpon them both at ones beside that it is Absurde that where the Adm. heere spake off the election he answereth off admission Here cometh to be considered the A. dealinge in the end off the booke where charged with vnfaithfullnes for that as in this place he would haue in synuated that the Adm. would haue the people chuse onely to proue hym selfe giltles he alledgeth a place of the Adm. wherin yt is said Then the election vvas made by commen consent off the vvhole church To this answer I repâ—lied that it was his ouersight that he tooke the people which is but a parte of the church to be al one with the church which is the whole coÌ„teininge as well gouernours of the church as the people in which replie the D. crieth owte off manifest falsification Why so forsooth because I lefte owte this worde whole that is to saie because I spared hym and kepte backe a peece of his folie and that with disaduantage off that which I pretended to proue For the word church simply set downe doth comprehended as well the gouernours as the people howe much more doth it comprehend them when this worde whole is added And if it were falsely concluded off him against the Adm. that they would haue the ministers to be called allowed and placed off the people because they saide that the election was made by commen consent off the church how much more is yt falsely concluded of thes wordes off the Adm. the election vvas made by consente off the vvhole church Thus appeareth that the D. together with his diuinitie seemeth to haue loste his commen sense yt is time therfore to carie him owte off the schole to some other place iff peraduenture by some sharper discipline he might gather vpp him selfe againe In the same place also vpoÌ„ that I shewed that in proper speach the church and people differed hauing there declared that difference to be in that the church is the whole and the people a parte theroff â–ª this complainer off falsificatioÌ„ saithe that I seeme to seperate the people from the election of the ministers for that I will not haue the worde church in the Adm. comprehend the people which is manifestly againste that I set downe For I precisely reprehended hym for that vppon the worde church vsed off the Admon he woulde haue mainteined his false insinuation againste them that the election should perteine to the people onely consideringe that the word church cited off him was the vvhole and the people one parte and necessarily comprehended vnder it This is not onely falsifyinge but flat facynge Nowe to retourne backe I aske what he needed twife in this diuision in so many and greuous wordes complaine off corrupte dealinge seinge him selfe flatly affirmeth asmuch as I saie of him and otherwise caÌ„ not mainteine his cause The truth is that he absteined then from the wordes electinge and onely bycause he sawe he had nothinge to mainteine them which nowe by my replie he was driuen to put downe or els to forsake his cawse Wherin as he dissenteth from the trwth so he is driuen to haue a newe combat with him selfe in that he heere maketh yt indifferent and at the discretion of the church in tyme of persequution to make elections ether by one or by the multitude which is contrary to that he hath before in thes wordes Lastly in time of persequution when they haue no magistrate they be all equall nether is one bound to obey another by any ciuill lawe none hath cheiff and especiall care ouer the reste as magistrate to compell wherfore yt can not be otherwise then but that such offices should be chosen by common consente Where he alledgeth Zuing. and Bull. owt of place and contrary to the title of his chap. to proue the callinge of certeine by one Apostle because they be Euangelistes vvhich wee haue no vse off and for that I haue shewed that they both are clearly of this Iudgement that the minister owght to be chosen with consent off the church I will not much busie my selfe with this matter But althowgh the Apostles did send thes Euangelistes off their Embassages to knowe howe the churches did and such lyke thinges as required no tariance nor execution off any set ministrie in the churches wherunto they where sent yet that they euer set them to rule any congregation by their priuate autoritie is not to be estemed wheroff this is an apparant reason that Timothe was not set ouer the church off Ephesus by Saint Paule onely seinge that Paule confesseth that he receiued imposition off handes by the eldership Thother also here mentioned beinge Euangelistes it is like the order vsed in one was in thother Nether doo the wordes I lefte the at Creta proue it for he doth not saie that he ordeined him and if he had yet it muste be vnderstanded that he did ordeine him as he had doone in other churches with consente off the church And that this is not my iudgement yt maie appeare by that I haue alledged owt off Caluine and Musculus in the former booke aÌ„d Bez. in this nether could Bull. be thought to haue here such meaniÌ„g as the D. giueth him that the Apostles alone should sett ouer the churches ministers as appeareth by that I haue alledged So that onles he will make Bullinger contrary vnto him selffe thes wordes that Paule and Peter called certeine can not be vnderstanded off placinge them ouer any congregation no further then being cheife in that action they directed the iudgemeÌ„t of the churches there remaineth zuinglius which I meruaile the D. will charge me with seinge he himselffe will not stande to him in the place which he hath alledged For that which he hath lefte owt off Mathias chosen by the vvhole church is directly againste that which he hath in diuers places before affirmed After many vaine wordes againste the replie vnto the places off Timothe as that it is against thauthoritie off learned writers against the whole course off
the Epistell againste the circunstance off the place he alledgeth that the moste off the preceptes conteined in that epistell doo properly perteine vnto Timothe as he is a bishop Which is vntrwe especially in that sense he taketh a bishop which the Apostels neuer knewe off for there shal be scarse two sentences found in the whole epistle which agree not to euery pastor And set aside those whiche cōcerne teachinge there are very fewe not commen with him vnto an elder which onely gouerneth Beside diuers belonging vnto the whole church as well as vnto him and some rather to other partes off the church then vnto him yet iff the moste shoulde properly belonge vnto him howe can he proue that the sentence off not layinge one off handes rashly doth onele belonge vnto him he hath cyted many to proue that Saint Paule saith yt doth belonge vnto the bishop which is not denied but that yt doth onely belonge by this place off Saint Paule which is denied he hath not one Nay diuers off his authors heere alledged haue the contrarie off that he pretendeth to proue by them For Bull. I haue saide Calu. denyinge that ether Paule or Timothe did any thinge in elections withowt the consent off the church towching the bare ceremonie off layinge on the handes he dowteth whether yt were doone by one or many And Ierome althowgh he saie that the ordinacion belonged to the bishop yet I haue shewed in the former booke that he cōfesseth that that was by no order of God or rule of the Apostles by which he confesseth that the bishopps were equall vnto the reste of the elders but onely by constitutiō off men Therfore he is vntrwely cited to confirme that by this place off the Apostell the bishoppe hath ether the election or ordination vnto him selffe As for Chrysostome and Oecumenius vnto whome is added Beza pag 226. Where this is repeted I answer at ones that yt semeth violent that the Apostle vsinge the worde eldershipe shoulde shutte forth those which were properly called elders And where I alledged pag. 226. that Chrisostome ment not by those wordes to put a distinctiō betwene elders by age and office I was deceiued The occasion was because he doth so in the same epistle where he had no more cause then heere and not lokinge vppon the the place when I wrote I tooke one for another But yt is to be noted that their interpretation is directly againste the D. for Chrysostome affirmeth that the Bishoppes off Ephesus which appeare to haue bene diuers in the Actes did lay on their handes and Beza that all those vvhich had the mynistrie off the vvorde are meant by the vvord presbitery So that by their iudgement one onely did not ordeine nor lay on handes both which the D. affirmeth As for the other sentence off Chrysostome with Theophilacte althowgh Paule lefte vnto Tite to doe those thinges which were ioined with most honour yt foloweth not that he lefte them to be doone otherwise then himselfe did them But he doth to much abuse his reader which would make hym beleue that he drewe this from the godly writers which he hath from professed enemies off the trwth For thes are the reasons off Pighius which to proue that the bishopp onely should choose and not the church alledged thes twoo places off Tite and Timothe which the Answerer hath Thus the firste reason off the D. with all the authorities wherwith he hath walled yt is gone to the ground for as for Ambrose testimonie yt maketh nether whot nor kolde no man dowteth but that Timothe owght to be circumspecte in ordeininge ministers The second reason is that iff the election off a bishop had off necessytie perteined vnto the people thē S. Paul would not haue writtē to Timothe of yt but vnto the churches as well as vnto him As though there were not many thinges in those epistles necessay for the churches to doo or as though they inscribed vnto Titus and Timothe are not written for the instruction of the whole churche euen in that very sentence off imposition off handes For when Saint Paule tawght that Timothe mighte not lay on his handes rashly he tawght the whole churches that they shoulde not chuse any rashely What is I besech yow in Saint Lukes two bookes dedicated vnto Theopilus which doth not aswell perteine vnto all sortes off men in the church as vnto him That the holy ghoste therfore intituleth his bookes sometimes vnto particular persons was not that the Doctrine conteined in them shoulde more perteine vnto them then vnto others but ether because he woulde lifte vpp their heade aboue the reste or for some other particuler circumstance .. And in Maister Caluines iudgement they were both written rather for instruction off other in the church then for Timothe and Titus For there beinge great resistance made vnto those younge men off diuers in the churches off Ephesus and Crete the Apostle to supporte them againste their aduersaries and to gird them with more authoritie so intituled their epistles that they mighte knowe that those thinges they did ād tawght they nether did nor taught of them selues but by his cōmaundement As therfore all thinges conteined in thes Epistles were to be knowen off Timothe and Titus so were they all to be knowen off euery one in those churches And as there are thinges in them the exercise wheroff concerned Timothe and Titus onely so there are other the exercise wheroff did at no hand apperteine to any off them As for the circumstance off the place which he saieth is against my replie he sheweth none But there is a manifest circūstance againste him which the Apostle by and by addeth kepe they selfe pure and communicate not vvith the faultes off other as iff he should saie althowghe thow canste not hinder the ordeining off insufficient officers of the church yet kepe they selfe pure Moreouer if this writing vnto Timothe alone that he should laie handes off none rashely shoulde giue him alone authoritie to ordeine and electe pastors then yt should followe that not onely the church and elders off Ephesus but the Bishopes which were there together with Timothe should haue bene shutte owte which iff the D. dare not saie beside that this holde is gone he muste recante the sole election and ordination by Timothe Yow maie easely put me owte off dowbte off that which I neuer dowbted and which I haue somewhere confessed that by the ceremonie off layinge on off handes the whole forme off orderinge is vnderstanded But off that yow shoulde proue that in that place off Saint Paule it is so vnderstanded althowghe yt is not that which can hurte our cause yow bringe not so much as maie induce vnto any the leaste suspiciō Your reason that he did electe because he did appoincte is to symple For albeit to chuse be to appointe yet euery one which appointeth chooseth not no more then yt followeth that because euery man liueth
therfore euery thinge that liueth is a man And I woulde gladly vnderstand by what maisters off our tounge yow can proue that thes two wordes to appoincte and to ordeine differ Iff they be all one why seeke yow aduantage in the one which you can not finde in the other But if it be absurde to saie that ordeininge is nothinge els but to call to chuse and to appoincte yt is as absurde that to appoincte is nothinge els but to call to chuse and to ordeine I am well contente yow expounde the place vnto Timothe off puttinge on of handes by that vnto Titus of appoincting towne by towne For I dowbte not but that which the eldershippe doth or one in the name off the eldershippe after the electioÌ„ is therfore called appointinge or ordeininge to the ministerie because yt is a solemne inuestinge and puttinge him in possession off that wherunto he was before chosen Althowghe Cal. be directly against him in this question whose iudgement is that yt doth nether belonge vnto the bishoppe to choose him selfe alone nor yet to ordeine by him selfe alone yet to helpe to ouerthrowe the right signification of Presbytery he is contente to folowe him at the leste dowting leauinge so many bothe olde and newe which all take that worde for a companie off those which gouerne the churche And it is certeine that those formes off nownes are vsed to signifie ether a societie or els the place where a societie meeteth And Caluine him selffe interpretinge that place where he had better occasion to coÌ„sider of it semeth to haue retracted his iudgement for thus he writeth They vvhich doo here take this vvord presbytery for a novvne collectiue and for the colledge of elders in my iudgement thincke vvell Althovvghe all thinges consydered I graunte an other sense vvill not euill agree that is that yt be the name off the offyce Yff those wordes as I appoincted the be referred as yowr learned interpreters will haue them by laying on off handes and praier they helpe yow nothinge And therfore I will not striue abowte yt Where yow saie Musculus meaninge is not much otherwise meaninge therby to conclude that he mente not to barr Timothe and Titus off their sole election let his wordes then be iudge Hauinge shewed howe Mathias and the Deacons were chosen by the church he saith there is no doubte but the Apostles kepte that maner of ordeininge and alledginge the example of the election off the 14. off the Actes headdeth therfore after fastinge and prayinge vvhich vvas vvonte to be doone in the congregation off the faithfull they ordeined elders vvhich vvere firste chosen of the faithfull And this forme off electinge and ordeininge elders and bishoppes the Apostle commended vnto his fellovve vvorkman Titus and Timothe sayinge for this cause I lefte the at Crete c. for vvho vvoulde beleue that he ordeined that Titus shoulde doo othervvise then both he and the rest off the Apostles vvere accoustomed to doo And althowghe thes wordes declare so plainly that Titus and Timothe chose not them selues alone but by consente off the churches as more fuller coulde hardly be deuised yet to put all owt off dowbte that he mente that Timothe and Titus conformed themselues to the examples off the Apostles in the churches election ioined together with theirs he doth immediatly add this conclusion Therfore bothe by the example and ordinance off the Apostle in the primitiue churche elders pastors bishoppes and Deacons vvere in the Ecclesiasticall meetinges chosen off the people by lifting vpp off handes Where the reader maie consyder what trwth he hath to loke for at the D. handes which denieth thinges that haue so manifeste and so easie confutation And where he saith that herin althowghe he hath lefte Caluin yet he hath folowed the iudgement of other learned men he maie see that he hath not lefte Caluin onely but Muscul Bulling and Zuing. As for his learned men I thinke verely that Pighius Hosius and others off that stampe excepted he is not hable to alledge one to confirme that Titus and Timothe had onely the election off the ministers For those alledged to proue that Timothe and Titus did ordeine are nothinge to the purpose considering no man denieth that but that they ordeined alone was to be shewed And â—â— he had shewed that they alone ordeined which he shall neuer doo yet is not the election off the people therby shut owte forsomuche as election and ordination are seuerall thinges What ether godlines or honesty is in him which dare so bare faced denie thinges so openly vntrwe I will leaue to bee iudged of that which is saide towching that the election doth not belonge vnto the bishoppe alone but vnto the church Here I will shewe that not so much as the ordination can by the testimonie of thauncient fathers or councelles agree vnto one bishop onely which is another poinct that he would haue the reader beleue and therfore owght ether to haue shewed yt or els to haue holdeÌ„ his peace seing none euer denied that the bishop hath to doo in the ordinacion Firste yt appeareth in Cyprian that both in the prouince where he was and in all other prouincs almost the nexte bishopps off that place where ther was a minister to be chosen came to ordeine hym whom the people chose The great councell off Nice decreed that he shoulde be ordeined off all the bishopps off the prouince at the leaste of three Moreouer August sheweth that when the Donatistes accused Cycilian for that beinge cheife bishop off the Prouince off Carthage he waited not to bee ordeined off the cheife bishoppe off Numidia the Catholikes did answer that it was the coustome of the Catholike church that the bishop of Num. should not ordeine the bishop of Carthage but the bishops which were next And in an other place of the same booke he sheweth that yt was the coustome that 12. bishoppes shoulde be at the ordination off him which was chosen bishop and pastor off any church Which appeareth in the same booke to haue bene obserued in the ordination off Cycilian And that yt may appeare that this was by continuall consente and Harmonie off Councells decreed againste the ordination by one bishoppe that one place off Theodoret iff there were no more mighte suffice where he saith that Euagrius came to the office off a bishoppe vnlawfully because onely Paulinus ordeined him contrary to the tenure off manie canons which prouided that they shoulde not be ordeined but by all the bishoppes off the prouince or at the leaste by three Thus yt appeareth that by all antiquitie not onely the election made by one bishope alone but the ordinacion also is flatly condemned as vnlawfull and contrarie to the coustome of the Catholike churche and olde Councelles â–ª wherby is manifest how vaine yt is which is cited owt off Caluin and others to proue that because the Metrapolitane ordeined therfore he ordeined alone Yow answer not
great triumphes of For the first off the places it appeareth how Chrysost there called Iohn elder of the church of Antioche was chosen bishop of Constantinople by cōmē voice of all both people and clergy and how he had his election ratified by the Emperour Arcadius For the seuēth booke yt appeareth that Chrysanthus was chosen bishop off Costantinople by the people And when as Sabbatius because Chrysanthus hid himself and would haue none off the bishopricke gat certeine bishops to ordeine him into yt the story sheweth how the people sowght Chrysanthus owt and put owt Sabbatius diuers other exāples there be which I leaue as I would also haue doon thes if it had not bene to haue shewed the vaine triumphes off the D. And where he saith that there is nothing in those 6. and 7. of Euseb which maketh mentiō of any electiō by the people but in one onely which he goeth about to wipe a way that thow maiest know the D. changeth not his skin I will note them in a word To leaue therfore the election made by reuelation where he saith the election was made by the ministers and pastors yt is manifest that the churches had to doo in the electiōs For in the indorcemēt of the letters wherby an other was appointed at Antioche into Samosatenus roume as well autority off the churches is pretended as off the bishops elders and deacons Where also he would clude the other place firste because it was a miracle then for that by the word brethren it is not certeine whether the people were noted for the first yt may appeare how vaine yt is seing the story saith the brethren came together to chuse a bishop The miracle therfore which came vnloked for off them and after they were assembled was to direct them in their election and not to authorise them to chuse For autority they had before els they would not haue come together for that purpose As for the other it is a boldnes too insufferable withowt shewing any one exāple and contrary both vnto the phrase off the scripture and aucient fathers shewed in my former booke and off Eusebius him self as may appeare diuers times in some one chapter In all thes sentences set downe owte of Euseb there is not a worde for the D. nor againste vs The D. cōsesseth that Origine tawght beinge a laie man in the church publikely he can not denie if he woulde but that he tawght by the appointment off bishoppes Thes two beinge put what followeth but that in those daies he was counted a laie man which toke vppon him the ministerie vppon the bishoppes appoinctinge onelye And that he abuse not his reader with such rouinge treatises my reson I will set downe in a fewe wordes That appointement vnto the ministrie which was thowght not to inhable to be minister was thowght insufficient but the appointement off the bishops onely was thowght not to inhable to be minister for Origene that had that appoinctement and authoritie vvas still coumpted a laie man therfore that authoritie onely was then thowght insufficient Eusebius therfore giuinge me this houlde which the D. is driuen vvhether he will or no to confesse ▪ there is wherwith to vpholde that I haue saide For if the bishops appointment off Origine to preach did not gyue him any degree in the ministrie for what cawse did it not except yt be it at I haue assigned his trāslatiō of Euse words whē he was yet not ordeined minister wherin another point off this matter standeth is not warrāted For by this means he must take one of his wordes which properly signifieth the choise by lifting vp and vsed sometimes of eccesiasticall writers for laying on of hands for a degree which hathe no example Likewise he must take the other vvhich I haue shewed to signifie the company of all the gouernours off the church for the office off one onely elder which wanteth proofe Beside that Muscul which translateth yt semeth to haue folowed the sence I haue where if he had folowed the D. he would haue doone otherwise For in steed of he had not appoinctmēt of the eldership he would haue saied the degree of an elder Where he alledgeth that Demetrius suffred hym to teach at Alexandria when he was a laie man belike therby to proue that the reprehension of Demetrius was not to be regarded which did himselfe that he found faulte with in other yt maketh nothinge to this question For yt is enowghe to that in hande that yt is confessed bothe by Demetrius and Eusebius Which taketh the defense off those whom Demetrius rebuked that Origene was a laie man althowghe appoincted to the preachinge off the vvorde by the Bishops Whether yt be lawfull for a laie man to teache the worde off God in publike place is an other question The nexte sect I leaue to the iudgmente of the reader Of this greate heape which foloweth the moste parte haue bene broughte before some foure times at the leaste they haue bene thresshed and there is no yelde it shal be seen that the rest are no better then their fellowes the places off scripture alledged heere are all answered sauing onely that of the Actes 13. which is borrowed of Hosius who vseth this place againste the choise by the church For answer wherunto I saie that it is nor question there off such election as wee spake off that beinge the election off God and not off the church I for my parte rather thinke that it was the voice off God by the Prophetes or one off the prophetes and for proofe alledge the storie in the Crome which may be cōmētary to this For as the church thē in distresse by publike praier and faste receiued comforte throwghe a Prophet whom the Lorde sodenly in the myddeste off the congregation raised amongeste them euen so the church off Antioche beinge in great distresse and feare off ruine off the church off God partly by the sworde and famine partly by contentions and serchinge remedy by puhlike praier and faste receiued by a Prophet which the lord stirred vpp amongeste them this oracle wherby he shewed them a singular meanes not onely to mainteine but to amplifie the borders off the kingdome off Christe If the S. will not receiue this interpretation but take the holy gost to haue sounded immediatly from heauen yet it helpeth him nothing there was no place lefte for any election but needes muste Paule and Bar. besent Iff therfore the bishop haue the spirite off prophecie at any time wherby he may haue such a certeine and vnfallible direction as this was wee will les sticke with him for his sole election Iff not yt is in vaine to alledge this example sauinge that it maketh much againste him For if the lorde woulde haue the approbation off the whole companie of Doctors and elders in that election vvhich him selfe had made and vvhere there was no daunger off error howe
that I deale not equally which barre him off that authoritie that I haue sometimes vsed my selfe ▪ he owghte to remember that a foreine testimonie and witnes off an enemie is glorious and that I hauinge vvarre in thes questions off the discipline not onely vvith him but with the Papistes mighte with commendation strike the◠thinges with their owne sworde which he hauinge herin the same cause vvhich they haue can not doo That which is gathered off Ambroses election owte off Theodorete is moste vntrwe ▪ for yt is manifeste that Ambrose was chosen by the whole church off Mylane and neuer a vvord to proue that the Byshops had the righte off election but the contrarye by the wordes and circumstances off the storie And wheras vppon the bishoppes offer vnto the Emperour to appointe one the D. woulde make the intereste of election a runninge and walkinge righte firste as the emperours gaue vnto the bishoppes thinges vvhich vvere vnmeete for them so yt was no meruaile if the bishops sometimes offred vnto the Emperours that vvhich perteined not vnto them Which may well appeare there by the answere off the good Emperour which refused yt as a thinge vvhich he had not to doo with and vnmeete for him Secondly yt is very like that for the diuersities of iudgementes vvhich vvere emongeste the people the bishoppes perceiuinge that they shoulde run into displeasure off one off the parties woulde haue bene glad to shifte off that euill will and lay yt on the Emperour which was better hable to beare it last of all they offred the Emperour that which he willed them to doo which vvhen yt was to ordeine onely as the issue declared and not to chuse the churches election can be by no meanes preiudiced in that offer off the bishops As for Chrysostomes 3. booke de Sacerdotio besyde that I doubte not but if yt had any thinge of Valewe for yow yow would alledge yt yt is the same authoritie which Hosius alledgeth and alledgeth in grosse as the D. doth againste the churches election To the D. firste reason againste the churches election vvhich standeth in that there haue bene great contentions and diuersitie off myndes amongeste the churches I answer that the Apostles vvhen there fell a contention and a iarr amongest those off the church neuer entred into any such deliberation off cuttinge awaye the churches libertie contrariwise they estemed the neareste waie to heale vppe the breach to gyue them some thinge more in that election off Deacons then was ordinarie For where they were accustomed to shew the way in other elections and by ripenes off their iudgemente helpe the weaknes off the People there they suffring the church to goe before folowed with their approbation And not onely in respecte off that election but if a man will consider the vvhole estate off the primatiue church in the Apostles time it shall appeare plainly that if there were euer good cause to take away the churches election throwgh contentions and diuersities off mindes that was in the Apostles times For the churches off God then almoste throwghowt the world standinge of Iewes and gentils and there beinge such a naturall hate betweene those two peoples as vvhatsoeuer the one woulde the other commenly vvoulde not and contrarywise if the Apostles had iudged that for reason vvhich the D. estemeth highe vvisdome they shoulde neuer haue permitted any election vnto the churches For albeit the knittinge off both those peoples into one profession off the gospell did mortefy that deadly hatred which was naturally in thē yet notwithstandinge yt appeareth by diuers places off the scripture that there vvere such remnantes off that hatred lefte that nether the Apostles them selues which were so vvise peace makers and so kunninge tiers off loue knotes nor yet the ministers and elders which had receiued the firste fruictes off the spirite off God coulde kepe them from moste daungerous contencions And Maister Zuinglius off vvhom the D. woulde seeme to receiue some succour in this cause euen when their churches were moste dangerously infected with Anabaptistry and many nourished it in wardly vvhich durste not vtter it openly teacheth that this forme off choise by the churche was to be kepte Nether is it to bee passed by that Basil noteth that one Anthimus in choosinge a bishop withowt the churches voices filled all Armenia vvith sedition Whervnto add the testimonie off Chrysostome where he askinge vvhy Peter communicated the election vvithe the Disciples answereth leste the matter shoulde be tourned into a bravvle and haue fallen to a contention When he assigneth the cause off contention cleane contrarie to the D. that the election was not communicated with the church Secondarily iff the churches elections shoulde be taken awaie because off cōtentions which happen in them Monarchies which oft haue declyned into tyrānie and bene abused to oppression off the subiectes shoulde haue had an ende long a goe and other such moste lawfull and necessarie aides off this present life owghte to be taken awaie as those which are abused And to come to ecclesiasticall affaires councelles by the D. reason owght to haue no place in the churches off Christe off which it is saide that there was neuer seen good issue of them and that throwgh merueilous ambition and desyre off contention in them thinges ovvte off order vvere not remedied but made vvorse Thirdly the examples off the contentions which the D. hath heaped vpp to gether beside that they are in parte not off the churche with yt selfe but off the church with hererickes which is her commendation as in the election off Ambrose beside that also it is noted specially that the people off Alexandria was off a Mutinous and stirring nature and therfore vniustly obiected againste the whole estate of the church beside this I saie thes examples alledged by the Answ are so farre from weakeninge the churches election that they make yt stronger For notwithstandinge those contentions had vnder bothe Christian magistrates and Bishops there was not onely no counseill taken to barre the churches off their election but were as hath bene shewed councells from time to time to ratifie yt And if the Emperours and Bishops had not thowght yt necessary that the churches shoulde haue intereste in their elections or had thowght as the D. that bothe the churches were put in hasarde of false teachers and the commenwealth off vprores by reason off popular elections yt had bene greate folie or madnes rather to haue suffred that which they mighte haue so easelie remedied Which opinion off the necessitie off the churches interest as yt hath appeared by diuers examples before alledged so maie it clearly be seene in the letters off the good Emperour Constantine to the Cytisens off Nicomedia which althowghe they had chosen to his great greife one Eusebius Bishop dooth not therfore take awaie the election from them but moueth to a newe And albeit they had abused their righte in
may better appeare for that in other places where S. Paul deuideth the whole mynistrie of the churche the ministrie off the word which he vttered here by the word off Prophecie he there attributeth not vnto Prophetes but vnto Bishops And when as the prophecie which the D. phansieth is a simple Ministrie off the church that Prophecie mencioned there being compounded muste needes be diuers Likewise that a Prophet to the Corin. is taken generally for any which instructeth with any word off exhortation yt is apparant both by that S. Paul attributeth prophecying to all which haue any gift off teaching and in that he doth so often oppose it to the fruteles speaking in a straunge toung amongest the assembly of the faithfull His testimonies out off writers remaine wherein amongest the auncient he hath onely a counterfeit sentence off Ambrose as I haue before declared which as yt ys full of confusion and disorder so yt maketh nothing for the D. for if Apostels be bishops and Euangelistes and Euangelistes be Deacons c. what maketh that to proue that there are beside the bishops and Deacons seuerall functions of Apostels and Euangelistes which is the question But how this fable is beaten down by all auncient antiquitie that may be a sufficient argument that the auncient writers in great consent speake off the whole ministrie off the church as deuided into thes three orders Bishops Elders and Deacons After that other ministries entred as doorkepers subdeacons c. yet there were none but such lightheaded spirits as I haue before spoken off that durst peint out any their mynysteries with the names off Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes For the new writers that the D. if his forhead be not of yron may learn to blush I will towch their Iudgment onely which he hath alledged for him self Maister Caluin diuiding the mynistrie off the word into Apostels Prophetes Euangelistes Pastors and Doctors affirmeth that the tvvo last onely that is to say Pastors and Doctors are ordinary Bucer likewise deuiding them into perpetuall and for a tyme affyrmeth that these perteine vnto thestate off the former church and correcteth the D. Ambrose for appliyng them to his times by the true Ambroses sentence to the contrary in the fyrst of his Offic. Peter Martyr vsing the same diuision sheweth that the function off Apost and Prophets are not in vse and that the ministrye of Prophets is not onely expyred in respect of telling thinges to come but also for the manner off interpreting the scripture That he speaketh not the same off the Euangelist was for that the Apostle maketh no mention off him in that place Musculus deuideth the mynisteries off the vvord into those vvhich serued for the beginning off the gospell as Apost Euang. Proph. and those vvhich cōtinue for euer as Pastors Doctors Elders Bishops Bullinger saith the office off Apostleship Prophetship and Euangelistship were instituted off the Lord for a tyme and that thes many ages euen synce the foundacion off the kingedome off Christ both Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes are ceassed into vvhose place are come bishops Pastors Doctors and Elders Last off all the confession off the churches hauing spoken off all mynisteries off the word mencioned off the Apostel concludeth that off all those now it is lawfull to esteeme mynistries off the churche Bishops Elders Pastors and Doctors Thes autors affirming that thes mynistries be extraordinary that they were for a time that other are come into their places the reader may see how the D. dealeth with him Let yt now be noted how he hath haled thes sentences taken from them Out off Maister Caluin he alledgeth that God hath stirred vp Apostels or Euangelistes synce the time of the primitiue churche and hath doone so at this tyme. Within a lyne after he addeth yet I call that extraordinary because in churchs vvell dressed it hath no place Of the like sort yt ys that he alledgeth owt off my booke whereas vpon Maister Caluin so of my wordes which affirme that God hath raised vp sometimes Euangelistes immediatly by his spirit vvithout any calling off men he woulde conclude that the office is ordinary and perpetuall then which bouldnes what can be greater Out of Bucer he alledgeth that there be now Euāgelists Where if his maner of speach that there are found Euangelists could not yet that which he addeth that God doth it by merueilous meanes ought to haue kept him from that allegacion except he thinck that a miraculous calling be perpetuall and ordinary Out of the Confess is brought that thes offices off Apostles c. are mynistries off the new Testament els should they haue great iniury seing they were both in tyme and dignitie first but who the D. set a part would euer conclude therof that they are perpetuall ministeries especially considering it addeth immediatly in plaine wordes that the Apostles are ceased and Pastors come into their places which could not be yf it had any such meaning as the D. phansieth Where it saith that there are yet Prophetes yf that were not which I alledged out of it towhing the shutting owt of those three ministeries from them which are now in vse yet the manner off speaking there are yet found the same with that of Bucer before alledged declareth that they ment therby an extraordinary calling For so we vse to speak of thinges rare and not in commen vse Last off all where yt is alledged owt off Bullinger that the wordes mentioned to the Ephe. are confounded yt doth not make for him but is answer both against the most places brought to proue Timothe a bishop and against those which he hath cited in the 3. and 4. Diuision off this chap. for if those ministries being separate one from an other their names notwithstanding be confounded yt muste follow that not euery one which is called an Apostle or bishop c. hath that function which is by some proprietie seuered from other and which the Apostle mēt to the Eph. for where one man being an Apostle is sometimes called a Prophet Bishop Doctor Elder and Deacon yf he will say that because he is called by thes titles he did therefore all those functions proper vnto those mynistries beside thabsurdities before shewed the vntruth doth manifestly appeare in the office off disposing off the churches money Whereoff the Apostles discharging them selues ceassed not therefore sometime to be called by the same name off Deacons And to vse those authorities which he hath brought Ierom calleth I say the Prophet both Euangelist and Apostel Yet I think the D. doth not esteme Ierom to haue had so litle iudgement as to think that he was ether off them in that signification they are taken of Saint Paul. likewise where he hath cited out off Caluin that Timothe was a Pastor when Caluin calleth him also an excellent Doctor and maketh that a seuerall function from the Pastor yt is cleare that he spake not off
by this meanes from the maiestie off the scriptures and making them dâ—â—â—e c. amplified in the next diuis by asking why the scriptures were then written with other suche too too idle questions which I am ashamed to defile my penne with is vnworthy the name of a reason As yf in that reading maketh meÌ„ fitter to heare the word preached and to seeke after yt in that yt helpeth to nourish faith engrended in that it confirmeth a man in the doctrine preached when by reading he perceiueth yt to be as the preacher tawght in that it renueth the memory off that was preached which otherwise would decay I say as if in thes respectes and such like the profit off reading and committing the word to writing were not singular and inestimable beside that it is not denied but the Lord may extraordinarily gyue faith by reading onely although the order which God hath put is to saue by folishenes as it is esteemed off preaching beside also that yt is absurd that the D. asketh why els the gospell should be writter as yf there were no other cause of writing off it then that it should be simply redd or as though the principall cawse was not â–ª that yt should be preached But to retourne to the D. exposition First it ouerthroweth the argument off the Apostle For the Iewes offended that he and other preached to the GeÌ„tils prouing first that the inuocation off the name of God perteineth vnto them he concludeth therupon that preaching vnto them was lawfull considering that they could not otherwise come to call vpon the name off God where by the D. expositioÌ„ the Iewes might haue excepted that his mynistery towardes them was not therby iustified forasmuch as they might come to inuocation by reading onely withowt his and others ministery off preaching Furthermore the Apostle S. Paul affirming in plaine wordes that the preaching he speaketh off can not be made but by him vvhich is sent yt is first manifest that reading priuately is cleane shut owt from being conteined vnder this preaching For faith comming onely by that preaching aÌ„d that preaching onely lawfull by the sending of God and publicke calling it followeth that except he will say that the scripture may not be redd priuately onles a man be publikely called therunto that both priuate reading of the scripture can no be conteined vnder the Apostles word of preaching and that faith onles by extraordinary worcke of God can not be engendred by priuate reading Forasmuch as it is engeÌ„dred only by that preaching vnder which priuate reading is not conteined And so goeth to the ground one peece off the D. assertion Now if priuate reading onely can not ordinarily engender faith I would know how publike reading onely can doo yt Beside that when publike reading may be by a simple reader which hath no other charge in the church and off whom this solemne fending can not be vnderstanded yt followeth that faith can not by publike reading onely be engendred Forasmuch as he being none off those sent his reading can not be that preaching by which faith is engendred I say that a reader onely can not be off those sent the Apostle speaketh off not onely because he hath regard vnto the ministeries off the word appointed by God but also for that the place off Esaie owt off which he proueth that faith cometh not but by preaching will by no meanes suffer to cary the word preacher vnto a simple reader For beside that it were friuolous to refer the lifting vp off the voice off those preachers wherunto the Prophet exhorteth vnto a loude reading which is vnderstanded of earnestnes and diligence in preaching that voice he speaketh off is the voice off the churches vvatchmen â–ª which title when yt can not agree vnto a simple reader that hath no further charge then to reade in a booke according to the prescript off others yt is manifest that a simple reader can not be conteined vnder S. Paules preacher seing he can not be conteined vnder Esaies which is the same with S. Paules For when the title off vvatchman draweth a continuall care and circumspection ouer those he watcheth and the reader for any thing his office requireth may occupy him self in any worldly busines sauing onely the time off his reading yt is cleare that he is no church watchman Nay the reading mynisters which haue charge off sowles committed vnto them can be none off this order of watcheman seing they can not onely not see the ennemy a far of but not hard by much les discry him yt perteining to an instructed pastor which according to the circumstance off the inuasion knoweth to apply his watche word Now seing simple reading nether priuate nor publicke can be conteined vnder the preaching S. Paul speaketh off Rom. 10. which is an interpretation and laying open the scriptures by a publike mynister apt and autorised therunto yt followeth that faith which the Apostle teacheth no otherwise to come but by that preaching cometh not ordinarily by symple reading I omit heere that the Apostle vseth to expresse this preaching both by crying and telling good nevves wheroff when yt can not be shewed owt off scripture or as I am perswaded owt of any other autor that ether of them much les both together is vsed for simple reading yt followeth that simple reading can not be vnderstanded by the word preaching To proue that bare reading ingendreth faith he citeth Iohn 5. repeted pag. 574. 2. Timo. 3. whereto perteine Math. 7. Act. 17. 1. Iohn 4. Gal. 1. disorderly placed pag. 717. but to no pourpose For when our Sauiour biddeth the Iewes search the scriptures he referreth them by that search to iudge off the doctrine he had preached before which proueth no fruict off reading when there is no preaching beside that it will be hard for him to refer the word search to reading onely as if one could not search the scriptures when he attendeth to them alledged in sermons yea he is confuted by the place him selfe hath alledged Where he would proue that the scripture red in respect off making the hearers more apte to discerne off preaching is better then preached for when the Apostle teacheth the Galatians to hould them accursed which preache other doctrine then they had receiued by his preaching he dooth flatly make his preaching the rule to examin other preachings by The place off Tim. being as I haue shewed off the proper duties off the minister off the word in preaching making no manner off mention off reading is alledged withowt all iudgement Hether refer Bucers Testimony in his former diuision which maketh for that set downe in this For Bucer setting him self to commend reading in the churche saith twise bare or onely reading confirmeth in the knovvledge off the Doctrine which necessarily presupposeth a knowledge foreplaced or euer yt can be confirmed by reading onely Where as if he might it is to be thowght he would haue
For where in his former assertion although not in wordes yet in deed he vtterly condemned the wisedome off God ordeining pastors and Doctors for continuall functions in the church of whom there is no vse if simple reading be as effectuall as preaching that being wrung owt off his handes in that he is compelled to confesse greater efficacy off preaching towardes the vnlearned yet rather thē all this cobweb should be vnweaued he maketh the ministery off preaching voide towardes the learned Wheras the scripture doth not onely generally but particularly and expresly shut vp the saluation off the learned in the meanes off preaching as off the vnlearned But this is a peece off the doctorall diuinity of some in Camebridge which to excuse their shamefull contempt off preaching and to make them a pillow to sleepe on or to pane them an alley to bowle in during sermons in the afternoone shame not to alledge that they cā profit as much in reading the scriptures or an homily owt off Chrysostome in their study as by hearing a sermon in the church Vnto the example off the Eumuche vvhich reading the scripture belieued not vntill he heard Philip preach he answereth that he vnderstood yt not and that he speaketh off an vnderstanding reader Which although it be vntrue the wordes off his former booke being generall withowt so much as the least signification off exception yet it is nothing worth For the cause why he could not vnderstand yt is there assigned for that he had no teacher to shew him the way Wherby followeth not which the Papistes conclude off this place that the people owght not to read the scriptures seing the Eunuch which both knew and confessed that he could not vnderstand withowt a guide exercised him self diligently in reading off them but this followeth that a man can not ordinarily not onely come to saluacion but not so much as to a sufficient knowledge off it withowt preaching Where off infinite examples he saith one is as few as may be yt appeareth this one was to muche for him to answer Now for all the false accusations off ioyning with papistes in despising off reading the scripture c. once heare yowr one proces that yt is yow that strengh then their handes For as in popery by committing the office off preaching especially vnto the beggerly friers and by declaring it more honorable for the bishop to reade a masse then to preach a sermon they set reading in the head and preaching in the taile so yow making simple reading as profitable as preaching hasten after them and if yow keepe the same pase yow haue begon it will not be long or euer yow ouertake them The D. hauing before made simple readers equall with preaching pastors in that he holdeth simple reading as effectuall as preaching heere in making bare reading better then preaching preferreth the readers aboue the preachers But in this later absurdity first as before he woulde make Musculus his pack-horse and therfore brawleth becawse I laied it not vpon Musc so princely is the D. that he would haue his faultes whipped vppon an other mans skin but at least I should haue deuided it between them As if I were matched with Musculus but the truth is that he maketh not for him For he compareth the profit taken of symple reading and off a sermon made of him which endeuoreth to make a glorious shew off eloquence and learning rather then to apply him self to the capacity off the simple which is nothing to that in hand where good reading is cōpared with good preaching And therfore it is ridiculous the D. bringeth of bitter inuectiues and contentious sermons c. compared with orderly reading For in this comparison it were not hard to proue which is blasphemy that yt is better to reade a peece off Lyuy then the bookes off the kinges namely if Lyuy be simply red and the other with interlining and mixture off popishe interpretation If one defending this would for maintenance off his comparison bring this escape would not all men hisse at him this is his refuge also to salue that he saied off homilies red better then sermons preached His other instance off a papist carying preiudice against all preachers and therfore not moued once by their doctrine in which notwithstanding after by reading he is established is insufficient for if the Lord by his vertue shewed throwgh preaching doo conuert men vttenly peruerted and at enmity with all truth and consequently with the ministers theroff how much more will he therby conuert papistes which by doubting whether the gospell be truth or their superstitions haue ground or no cary not that enmyty the other doo which haue no such entrance Then yow muste vnderstand that as in the Sacramētes the Lord doth not alwaies at the same tyme they are ministred worcke by his spirit but chooseth the time that seemeth good to his wisedome so yt is in preaching wherby yt cometh to passe that the spirit of God worcking faith at the time of reading wrought it not by that meanes onely but vsed therunto the help off preaching which went before For as greene wood laied vpō fire and her with many strong blastes as laste set on fire and flaming with one and that a soft blaste is not to be be saied chiefly set on fire with the soft blaste because it wēt immediatly before euen so the word off God blowen by preaching and after sensibly burning in the hearres of the hearers by the meanes off reading immediatly gone before is not so muche to be ascribed vnto reading as preaching Considering that so it might comme to passe which is absurd that contemplacion off the creatures should profit more then reading For wheras the Lord hath seth the print off the moste off his promises and other doctrines in the creatures for example off his fatherly care off prouiding al thinges necessary for his in the prouision for birdes off the ayer and rich array off the lilies off the field yt may comme to passe that that doctrine knowen by meanes off preaching and lying as yt were dead in the heart may after by sight and earnest vewe off the thinges them selues be quickened yet none off iudgement will say that the beholding off the creatures wrrowght more in this then preaching Howbeit if the cases he putteth in this point were true yet he is inexcusable thes plaisters comming a ye are and a half after the wound giuen by such straunge speach which owght to haue gone with yt if peraduenture they might althowgh not heale yet somewhat hide the lothsome rawnes Hytherto perteineth that which he hath disorderly put pag. 176. where he saith that the reading off Saint Paules epistles did the Romanes more good thē preaching which is cōtrary to S. Paules meaning who sheweth that he could not haue the like fruice off his ministery towardes them as off other nations because he was letted to comme and preach vnto
signification should be followed for part of the writers of canonicall bookes as of Iosue Iudges Sam. Chron. Kinges c. are vnknowen To that wherin the booke is charged for lifting vp of diuers cha of the Apocrypha to be red as extra ordinary lessons vppon feast daies vvherin there are greatest assemblies some chap. off canonicall scripture being not red at all he answereth not a word but leaueth it to speake for it self Seing then the scripture precisely forbiddeth to ordeine a pastor not fit to teach and bare reading off homilies is conuenient off holy scriptures insufficient to saue the people by which are the cruches wherewith the D. would vphould this lame ministery it followeth together with the shamefull absurdities off reading to be preaching to be as good yea better then preaching that vnpreaching pastors as the pestilence off the church owght to be throwen owt Now I retourne backe to the 7. Tract off Ministers apparell wherunto albeit I was determined as may appeare to reply yet considering after that this cawse hath bene so fully debated both by bookes in print and other treatises written in the handes of as many as desire after them considering also that the D. second answer beside false accusations as that men haue learned off me and my parteners to esteme the surplis c. corrupt in them selues c. open facing downe off thinges in knowledge off all men as that none are hindred one iot from comming to the gospell by prescript apparell bare affirmacions withowt proofe as that no minister making conscience off wearing thapparell will rather weare it moued by example off other then by the law which commaundeth it almost continuall reasoning not to the matter which he cowardly dissembleth as that Prophetes which were extraordinary ministers had an extraordinary apparell which is not denied which traine taken at the beginning is followed to the end triumphes in his owne shame â—â— appeareth in the place off Salomons Ecclesiastes I say beside thes considering that he hath almost nothing at all not before answered and that he hath not fetched from any treasury off good learning but as taken vp by the highe way sideâ— and considering that we haue this question with very few him the Papistes or those which haue already cast an eye vnto the papistes onely excepted with whom to trauaill in this point before their other gale be purged were to heale the skinne and leaue the bones still broken all thes things considered with that that it may better appeare we take not these thinges for the greatest matter we coÌ„plaine of I thowght good to tread this treatise vnder my foot and to saue some good howres which might be lost in vnripping this beggery That I saie off hauing this question with very few him c. excepted I meane in that where he saith the surplis square cap and tippet be most conuenient decent and comely others in whom there is any loue off the truth confesse it a weed vnmeet for a minister of the gospell which not able to root owt they are for certeine causes content to beare with And althowgh destitute off answer he plie his matter with accusatioÌ„s of disobedieÌ„ce and conteÌ„pt of magistrate yet I doubt not but with all indifferent our open and simple profession off the necessitie off higher powers and off the honour and humble submission to Her Maiestie and all magistrates vnderneth her ether in doing thinges commaunded or patiently suffring for that which we can not with good conscieÌ„ce doo shall be sufficient defense especially seing that euen in this matter off apparell it is confessed that obedience owght to be giuen where the commaundement is with iniury to the ministery As for the D. ether error or flattery that in thinges indifferent commaunded by the Magistrate we owght not to haue such regard to the offense off the weake but that if all should be offended that is to say perish and make shipwracke off conscience for that is the offense which S. Paul and we after him speake off yet we owght to doo that which is commaunded the Magistrate being therby lifted aboue the Lord we vtterly condemne Considering it being a flat commaundement off the holy gost that we absteine from thinges in their owne nature indifferent if the weake brother should be offended no autoritie ether off church or commen wealth can make yt voide And where the magistrates commaunding and owr obedience vnto him owght to be squared owt first by the loue off God then off men our brethren especially this new carpenter as one that frameth his squire according to his tymber and not his timber according to the squire will make our obedience to the cyuill Magistrate the rule off the loue off God and our brethren So that in steed that he should teach that we may obey no further vnto the magistrate then the same wil agree with the glory off God and saluation off our brethren he teacheth that in thinges off their owne nature indifferent we must haue no further regard nether to saluacion off our bethren nor to the glory off God which in neglect of their saluacion is troden vnder food then will agree with doing that the magistrate commaundeth But I am gone further then I thowght seing there caÌ„ hardly be any so symple which perceiueth not easely both the fondnes and absurdity off his answers in this question The replie to the D. 8. Tract off Archbishopes and Bishopes Vnto the firste and seconde diuision being beside the question I answer nothing Before I come to the thirde forsomuche as the place off the Euangelistes which is before is generall and striketh at all the loftie and swelling titles off the ministrie I will set it here downe in the foreward off the reasons browghte againste the names off Archbishopes c. as that which speaking againste all the smoky names muste nedes comprehende thes In the D. answer therfore wherby he goeth aboute to proue that thes wordes gratious or bountifull Lordes make nothing againste the great names and magnifical titles off the ministers this is the firste that Saint Marke and Muthewe haue no wordes bearing any suche sense Wherunto I answer that as yt is a generall rule almoste throwghowte the scripture that repetitions are not withowt some vsury and increase so in the writinges of the EuaÌ„gelistes yt is to be obserued almost euery where And therfore yt owghte not to haue bene strange if other Euangelistes speaking off the autoritie onely S. Luke added also touching the titles Secondly he answereth this clawse yt shall not be so vvith yovv is not referred vnto those wordes are called bountifull and benefyciall but vnto ambition and tyraÌ„nical dominioÌ„ onely wherunto I answer firste that forsomuch as the things there affirmed of the Ministers and the worde off gracious Lordes is as well affirmed off kinges as the worde off bearinge dominion therfore those wordes yt shall not be so
conceiued off an opinion they had that those tvvo vvere not vvorthy to rule ouer them The vvordes off our Sauiour Christ in the 20. of S. Math. c. are spoken vnto the 12. onely vvhom he had set apart for the ministerie off the gospell but his vvordes S. Math. 23. are spoken not onely vnto them but vnto the commen people Wheruppon it followeth that our Sauiour ioining the people vvith his disciples in the dehortations vvhich he maketh here could not as in the other place vvhere he speaketh vnto them alone speake off the proper listes and boundes of the ministerie and therfore there is no cause vvhy M. shoulde be glad that I agree with hym in the exposition off Math. 23. Further Math. 20. making comparison betwene the 12. disciples and Princes here so far as towcheth the disciples he maketh comparison betwene them and other ecclesiasticall ministers There being therfore thinges in the state off a commendable Prince vvhich agree not vnto the ministery of the gospell it followeth that he may be well thowght there not onely to haue forbidden the disciples ambition damnable in bothe estates but also those thinges which being commendable in Princes agree not vnto them Off the other side all thinges coÌ„mendable in the Pharises ministrie Ecclesiasticall agreing likewise to theirs it followeth of necessitie that there he must needes speake against ambition onely Vnto the next diuis being reproches I answer not onely vvhere he chargeth me vvith falsehood becawse I affirme he saith the booke off commen praier is a perfect rule to gouerne the churche off England by where nothing is wanting or to much I answer that there be not the same wordes but when there is nothing he will acknowledge to be off the order of the booke which he mainteineth not and refuseth to haue added thinges vvhich haue their ground off the word I leaue to the reader to iudge whether although my wordes are vvith the fullest yet I am far from his meaning Now I returne againe to his 8 Tract The Ans skoffing vppon my vnskilfulnes in logicke saith he can finde nether head nor foot in my reason Thus I will finde both They which deny the lawfulnes of Iohns ministrie because there was no suche ministerie conteined in the scriptures thowght no ministerie lawfull not conteined in them but the Scribes and Leuites did so therfore they esteemed no ministerie lawfull not conteined in scripture Against this he taketh exception first to the translation which is altogether friuolus for beside that both the wordes may beare that signikication and it is not vnlike but by the article the Euangelist ment not some one singular Prophet spoken of in the law beside the Messias but rather any Prophet extraordinary to vvhom the Lord shewed him self ether by vision or dreame the interpretation vvhich he citeth owt of Beza altereth not the argument but rather strenghtheneth it noting therby that it vvas necessary not onely to haue the function off a Prophet but off one which vvas especially noted and marked owt by the scripture SecoÌ„dly where he saith that if they had asked Iohn whether he had bene a Prophet he would not haue denied it and addeth for proofe theroff our Sauiour Christ saied he was one he is abused for our Sauiour saying that he vvas greater then a prophet and that the Prophetes endured vntill Iohns comming denieth that he vvas a Prophet and maketh his ministerie a meane function betwene the function of a Prophet and ministerie off the gospell more excellent then the first and inferior to the other If he vvould haue had a coulor off his defense he should rather haue cited his fathers saying of him which calleth him the Prophet of the highest but that could not haue serued the turne nether For that the vvorde is there taken generally for those which teach the will off God which is often as hath bene shewed Yowr third exception that all the functions are not reckened vpp becawse they aske him not whether he was a Priest or Leuite is as vaine as the rest for therfore they aske him not becawse he tawght not being consecrated vnto any of them according to the ecclesiasticall order prouided in that behalf and that vvas one occasion off this embassadge vnto Iohn Last off all where in the margent he saith that the Pharises made false argumentes and that I doo the same he speaketh vnaduisedly for howsoeuer there was otherwise great ignorance in them yet that their reason vvas good herin it appeareth by that S. Iohn to proue his ministerie lawfull browght testimonie theroff owt off the scripture and for that our Sauiour Christ meaning to confirme the ministerie off Iohn asketh whether it were from heauen or off men In vvhich wordes condemning all ministeries vvhich men institute and that come not from heauen he confirmeth the Parises argument vvhich vvas that Iohn exercising a mynisterie not ordeined by the law should haue bene gilty of breach of the law if he could not haue shewed some extraordinarie vocatioÌ„ Thus appeareth that there vvas both bead and foot in this argumeÌ„t and that by all likelyhood true vvhich he could not impugne but by vntruth The 8. and 9. diuis vvhich follow haue as commonly the rest nothing but bare sayinges which becawse I shall meet withall againe I vvill heere passe ouer â–ª onely in the eight yt ys to be noted that he saith it is seruile to tie the church off Christ to the patrone off the Iewes Synagoge Wherin ether he saith nothing or he would haue vnderstanded more then he dare veter For if he meane that the church of Christ may not be in all ordinances and ceremonies coÌ„formable to that off the Iewes it maketh nothing to the pourpose but if he meane that the church hath now more libertie in adding ministeries then the Iewes had as his answer to that I set downe doth require then I see no cawse vvhy he should not haue so saied But that although he would say yet he durst not and therfore spaâ—â— thus vncertenly that vvheÌ„ I should shew the coÌ„trary he in this generall speach might haue some corner to hide him in Seing I must needes proue that the crow is blacke that is to say tharchbishoprick a new ministerie thus yt is proued That which hath diuers efficient cawses is an other and diuers but there are diuers efficient cawses off the ministerie off tharchbishop and those expressed in the word off god That there are diuers efficient cawses is manifest for that the office off Bishop Elder and Deacon being by God him self the office off tharchbishop was deuised and browght in by man And although this be proof enough to them that haue their senses exercised in the holy scripture where in the ministerie oftentimes they are called straungers which haue not their offices limited by the prescript off Gods word yet that it may appeare how litle modestie there is in this strong deniall
or not at the churches vvill Moreouer if he say that it is necessarie ād commaunded a◠some tyme and not at others vvhat a miserable case is the churche in that hath no certein addresse owt of the word vvhen that necessitie and commaundement beginneth and when it endeth vvhen this office is in season vvhen owt of season Lastly forasmuch as S. Paul speaketh of offices thē in the chuch not of those vvhich came after as the Ans him self is forced to confesse the Archbishops office must needes haue bene in the Apostles tyme Which if it be true those times being as the Answ hath borne vs in hand so vnlike ours the persons in the church then off so different dispositions from those now the place also the gospell being thē in the East partes where now it is in the West it must needes follow that this monely office off the archbishop which ebbeth and floweth being fit for the Apostles times is by all likelihood vnfit for ours His distinction vnto the second proposition is that an Archbishop in respect off the ministerie off the word and Sacramētes is necessarie alwaies but not in respect of policie and gouernemēt Which is asmuch to say as an archbishop vvhen he is an archbishop is alwaies necessarie for the church For when he hath not the owtward gouernement then by yowr owne rule he is no archbishop then which speach what can be more absurd And of this answer followeth that there is a time vvhen the Pastors haue nothing to doo vvith the externall policie and gouernment off the church but onely to administer the word and Sacramentes and then the church shal be an heape and not a bodie a confused multitude not an orderly societie Yet in the next section he gyueth the gouernement off the church and order vnto the bishops and archbishops and will haue them part the stake off the Apostles autoritie vvhich they had in the church And as this answer is absurd so yt ys contrarie to that he hath set downe in his former booke that not onely the office off the Archbishop is necessarie but most necessarie I saied before that the Apostle speaketh to the Ephes off mynisteries vvhich haue to doo vvith preaching the vvord but neuer added as yow in yowr Doctors booke and here and not those which haue to doo with order and discipline Therfore I had nothing forgotten my self if be would haue vnderstanded that which is plaine to all the world for thes two may well stand together the Apostle spake there onely off functions conuersant in the vvord and the Lord spake of those functiōs vvhich Preach the vvord and administer the gouernement for the word onely doth not seclude gouernemēt from those ministries but shutreth owt all ministeries not preaching as that off the Elder and Deacon And yt is one thing to say the Lord spake there onely off preaching mynisteries an other to say he spake there of ministries onely preaching which me thincketh yow could not be ignorāt of Therfore Saint Paul reckening vp the ministeries there which haue together with the preaching of the word the administration off gouernement and making no mention off the Archbishop supposed to haue both yt followeth that yow are yet behinde with yowr answer I haue not confuted my shadow but yowr fond phantasie For if S. Paul speake in that place of those that haue the ministerie off the word and Sacramentes onely and not off those which haue to doo with the order of discipline yt followeth that Apostles haue nothing to doo with order and discipline forsomuch as they are amongest those which S. Paul there speaketh of If this cogitacion neuer entred into yowr head how cometh it to passe that yt ys found in yowr papers Lastly yow say the administration off discipline and gouernement in the Apostles is fallen vpon the Archbishops and bishops the ouerthrow off my whole assertion Yf a man will belieue yow speaking he may otherwise here is nothing but I saied yt And surely yt must be a very simple hould that is cast downe with this paper shot of bare affirmatiō but if yow will weigh a litle what yow say yow shall see that if there be any bullet at al in this yowr saying yt is charged wholy vppon yowr self For before yow haue saied once or twise that the office and autoritie off an Archbishop was in the Apostles tymes Which if yt be true how doth the Archbishop receiue his auauritie off order and gouernement by their death for hauing yt before he cannot receiue yt by their departure Ether therfore this is vntrue that the archbishop exerciseth the same autoritie which the Apostles or that which yow saied before that the office off the Archbishop was in the Apostles time or els this third is true that he hauing in the Apostles time autoritie which he hath now by their death obteined beside their former autoritie that which the Apostle had also Which how neere it pricketh at the papacye I leaue to euery one to consider But yf the Archbishop will succede vnto the administration off order and gouernement off the Apostels why sheweth he not his euidence why bringeth he not forth his recordes of bequest off resignation that it may appeare he is not entred as a trespasser In that sense which I haue shewed in an other place I graunt it true which Ierome saith that all bishops succede vnto the Apostles but shew me who speaketh any thing off the succession off the archbishop vnto them Nay verily that is flat against the archbishops autoritie For if euery bishop haue that autoritie in his church which the Apostles had in all the world it followeth that there nether needeth nether can be any archbishop to receiue any theroff And that if any archbishop chalenge a greater autoritie then is in any one bishop he pulleth to him self greater autoritie in his prouince then euer the Apostles had in the world And by the same reason that they be Lordes and superiours ouer bishops they must be lordes and superiours in their prouince ouer the Apostles them selues if they were aliue Considering they rule ouer those which in their dioceses haue the same autoritie that the Apostles had This I speake not that I thinck the Bishops had not this autoritie from the very birth and foundacion off the function as towching the gouernement off their churches or that there came any autoritie vnto them by the Apostles death which they had not in their tymes but that yt may be vnderstanded that if there were any such succession vnto the Apostles gouernement as the D. phansieth the bishops are the right beyres and that not certein other some shut forth but euery one as Ierome saith Although if tharchbishop should haue an Apostolicall autoritie in gouerning his prouince it hath appeared and more shall God willing that the Apostles gouernement was far from that principalitie and rule one ouer an other which tharchbishops chalēge ouer
thapostels times at Philippos where Paul expresly saluteth diuers bishops at Ephesus froÌ„ wheÌ„ce certein bishops sent for came to MiletuÌ„ Likewise in the church off Thessalonica there were diuers Presidentes the same by the D. diuinitie that Bishop or Archbishop And as it was in those churches so yt ys like to haue bene in other off greate resorte to heare the worde off God and habilitie to enterteine a more plentifull ministery Nether let him as he is wont oppose vnto the manifest wordes off the scripture Ambroses exposition vpon the place to the Philippians nor that which goeth vnder Ieromes name vpon the same For as for Ambrose a childe may see how violently he forceth the texte and what inconuenience he runnethe into to make yt agree with the coustome off his times wherin this order was for the moste parte worne owt And as for the other he is a couÌ„terfaicte and so marked not onely because he contrarieth that which Ierome did plainly teache but also for that the forme off writing is farre off another complexion Yt can not be denied but that this order of God was strickeÌ„ at by diuers canons off Councels and that as this was the firste attempte which the deuill gaue to abridge the nomber off Bishops in the churche so yt was more aunciente then that other off robbing the villages and small Cyties off their bishops Vpon what rotten groundes this abuse crepte in cometh afterward to be considered here yt is to be noted that this corruption was not so generall but that often times yt admitted exception And notwithstanding bothe custome and Canons in that behalfe good men vpon occasion made no conscience to ordeine twoo bishops of one citie Euseb maketh mention of Narcissus and Alexander Bishops at ones in one parishe and if yt be true which he reporteth that the same was by reuelation from heauen yt ys a good argumente that this voice was as yt were a repeale off that custome which had bene browght in contrarie to the firste institution off god Yt is writteÌ„ off Augustine that he was made bishop off Hippo bothe by the instante requeste off Valerius then another bishop there and by the consente off the Metra politane Bishop off Carthage And albeit in consideration off the canons made to the contrarie Augustine was lothe to take the charge yet instantly required he accepted yt Augustine him selfe also was off aduise that in those places where was a Donatiste Bishop and a catholike if the Donatiste returned vnto the vnitie of the churche then he should be receiued into the felowship off the bishops office with the catholike bishop Where he putteth onely thes exceptions if the people vvill suffer yt yf becavvse yt is not accoustomed the people vvill beare it Wherby is cleare that notwithstanding it was forbiddeÌ„ by canons yet he thowght yt not vnmeet to haue two bishops in one church if the people would beare it and if he were of this aduise notwithstanding the couÌ„cels to the coÌ„trary how much more would he haue thought it meet if the church had required aÌ„d made sute for it Also it is not to be forgotten that although this corruption off gyuing the name bishop to one in a church from the rest to whom it did off right belong be auncient yet godly men misliked it and by all likelihood broke it of Which Ieromes wordes do apparantly import this coustome vvas in the church off Alexandria from S. Mark vntill Heraclas and Dionysius For onles there were some change then why would he not rather haue saied from S. Mark vntill his time considering that all that time there was continuall succession of church and bishops Therfore belike those godly men seing the mischeif like to ensue of that coustome and vnderstanding that thinges owght to be called to the apostolick institution changed that coustome Furthermore it is diligently to be considered that this order off hauing one onely in euery church to haue the name of Bishop ouerspred not the church soudenly and at a clap but entred by litle and litle so that it is like there were diuers ages past or euer this had a generall passage thorowgh all the churches in the world By all which it may appeare how the Ans is abused in saying it can not be shewed from Christes time that euer there were two bishops in one church Thes thinges being thus laied let vs now come to Cyprians Testimonies Caput 3. VNto the firste diuision I haue answered In the second to proue that Cyprian speakethe off an Archbishop the D. concludeth thus yt is the principall office of the archbishop to prouide that peace and vnitie be kept in the churche c. but the office off him whom Cyprian describeth is to keepe peace in the churche therfore Cyprian speaketh of an archbishop This argumente is caste in the same moulde that those which he hathe vntrwly compared my reason vnto before and yt hathe almost more faultes then wordes But that the simplest maye see his dealing yt is to be vnderstanded that as the pretence off institucion off the Archbishop was to keepe peace and suppresse scismes so the onely pretence off translating the name off bishop from manie in one churche vnto one onely was the same as appeareth by the place off Ierome after discussed To let passe therfore that I haue proued and will after more appeare that there was then nether Archbishop nor Metropolitane and for disputacion sake to imagin Archbishops then yet when bothe the name and office Cyprian speaketh of agree vnto him which gouerneth in euerie churche or to speake as the D. speaketh diocese and the office onely withowte the name agreethe to the Archbishop yt must needes be meeter â—o refer Cypcians wordes to the Bishop then to the Archbishop seing that there be more cordes off reasons to pull them that waies then the other At the leaste yt is cleare that the Argument off the A. is faultie seing yt was not onely the principall office off the Archbishop to prouide for peace c. but the same also was the principall office off the Bishop as that vnder pretence wherof that kinde off Bishop was instituted Where he cometh to his oulde hole that althowghe the name be not there yet the office is I refere my selfe vnto that written before in that be halfe Howbeit here yt appeareth how he spake withowt booke saying all writers before the Nicene Councell make mention bothe off their names and offices when as Cyprian one off them hathe no worde off them Where he saithe Cypr. speaketh off Cornelius who had gouernement off all the prouince that is the question which becawse he coulde not proue he taketh graunted Where he addeth Cyprian had the charge and ouersight off all churches in Aphrica and for proofe alledgeth the 4. booke 8. Epistle he is abused for Cyprian dothe saie no suche thing He speaking there off himselfe and
priest and bishop for the same Howbeit because the autor him selfe ys aliue and knoweth best what he meaneth I am well content the meaning off his wordes be such as him self shall beste like off Out off M Fox he can not finde so much as a fig leafe and therfore telleth vs how he saith Rome vvas a patriarchall church and therfofore not vnlike but Carthage was also how by a dioces is ment a Prouince and forsomuch as he allowed an archbishop yt is like he expounded Cyprians place of an archbishop The onely rehersall is too long a confutation In the end are recited at large the wordes of M. Philpot. which attributing vnto Cyprian a dioces declareth that he esteemed him a bishop not an archbishop For that he calleth him the Nouatians cheif Bishop yt is far from the estate of an archbishop He might well call him so in respect of his singular learning and pietie or in that he was bishop off the cheifest place in Afrik And the same may be saied off Cornelius being Patriarch For otherwise in autoritie he could not be seing him self confesseth that patriarches were appointed at the councell off Nice about 150. years after Albeit the truth is that the appointement of those 4. patriarchall seates was not by the Councell off Nice but off Calcedon Nether doth it follow that if Cornelius were a Pairiarch therfore he was Prince off many bishops onles he will say that becawse Tertullian calleth Philosophers Patriarches off Heretikes and Ierome Tacianus the Patriarch of Encratites therfore Philosophers and Tacianus bore dominion ouer the Heretikes or Encratites He might be so called in that he was cheif father of the church off Rome where he executed his office as Ierome witnesseth off the Iewes Rabbines to haue bene called Patriarches yet they had no gouernmēt or rule but in the seuerall Synagogues where they taught Now it appeareth the Ans can not bring so much as one seely testimony to proue this place of Cyprian vnderstood of tharchbishops or metropolitanes autoritie besides that alledged of Muscu flatly denying that Cyp. thowght of any Archbis or Metrop but onely of euery Bishop in his owne church I will ad the testimony of Bucer who affirmeth the very same that I. Shewing against the Pope that Christ onely is vniuersall bishop he assigneth this reason For he is present vvith his sheepe and vvith euery of them and feedeth thē vntill the end of the vvorlde and for this cavvse putteth ministers in his place and that to euery church her seuerall minister For he did not onely gyue Apostles Prophetes Euangelistes and ministers off many churches once but gyueth also daily vnto euery church off his her ministers Pastors and Doctors and both instructeth and leadeth them vvith his spirit that they may serue their ministries him self onely gyuing increase vnto their planting and vvatering For vnto euery one off them he hath appointed a proper portion off the flock as S. Cyprian testified by vvarrant off tradition off Christ and his Apostles and that vvith this condition and povver that euery one together vvith his presbyterie and Clergie should rule his vvhole flock as one vvhich should make account off his ovvne act not vnto the Pope off Rome but to the lord vvhich is the Prince of Pastors Amōgest vvhō no man might appoint him self bishop of bishops or iudge an other or be iudged of an other vvherupon the iudgemēt of the bishop belonged vnto Synodes not vnto one bishop as long as the policie off the church gyuen by thapostels stoode Therfore bishops vvere equall not onely in povver of the keies by vvhich fable Latomus vvould elude the place of Cyprian but also in vse and degree off povver and iurisdiction In the end shutting vp all that he had saied off the metropolitanes he saith This is the sentence off the catholike church concerning the povver of bishopes as vvell off Rome as others grounded on the vvord off God approued by canons obserued off all true bishops Wherin Bucer affirmeth that this portion off the flock which Cyprian speaketh off is the charge off euery minister in his seuerall church and that by institution off Christ and his Apostels no minister or bishop can haue an other bishop to iudge him but that if there be a fault in him it is to be iudged by Synodes Thus I leaue to the readers iudgement how it was more easie for the Ans to say the godliest and learnedest writers expound the place of Cyprian of an archbishop then to shew it when it cometh to proofe And althowgh he fall flat vnder the bourden vndertaken in his first booke yet as thowgh he had not half his lode he hath charged him self a fresh For where before he saied the godliest and learnedest expound this of an archbishop now he saith all learned writers expound it as he doth It were well there were some reasonable proportion betwene the toung and the hand for it can not be but a fowle fault to be so long tounged and so short handed Before I come to Ieromes testimonie the order off tymes for the better vnderstanding off this cause requireth that those bothe autorities and examples be answered which the Answerer hath alledged bothe before owte off the Councell off Nice and Antioche and after pa. 470. c. The nexte to the times off Cyprian is Dionysius Alexandrinus which saith he had vnder his iurisdictiō all the churches in Pentapolis as Athanasius testifieth in a certeine epistle Apolog 2. First there ys no suche thinge in all that booke nor in no epistle conteined therin The place he meaneth of is in an epistle he wrote concerning Dionysius iudgement againste the Arian heresie Then yt ys not saide as he reporteth that all the churches of Pentapolis were vnder his iurisdiction but onely that he had care of those churches or as the translators words be the care of those churches apperteined vnto him Which what litle or no weighte they haue to proue archiepiscopall iurisdictiō shall be seene when we come to the place where the sense of this to haue care ys discussed In the meane time yt is to be obserued for better triall of this matter which I haue before noted owte of Eusebius that he succeded in the bishoprick off Alexandria vnto his predecessor withowte attributing vnto hym any further charge And when as Euseb declareth that he writing vnto the churches in Egipte wrote vnto them by the bare name of the brethren vvhich vvere in Aegypte withowte any title betokening anie bonde or knot off mynisterie towardes them and off the other parte writing vnto the churches in Alexandria intitleth that writing an exhortation vnto his flocke he declareth euidently that he estemed Alexandria his proper charge and that sauing that bothe in respecte Aegypte was his contrey and the peace of his owne churche was folded vp in the welfare of yt his care for Aegipte was generall as for other churches And the very testimonie
by that Beza writeth vpon thes wordes he gaue all these vvhich belieued in him this dignitie or prerogatiue that they should be called the children off God. Now what this dignitie and preeminence was may easely be seen by that the bishop of Rome hauing preeminence or dignitie ouer the bishop off Constantinopel Alexandria c. had nothing therby more then they sauing onely the first place in their meetinges Seing therfore thes wordes translated to haue power signifie nothing but to haue honour which consisted onely in hauing the highest place by thes wordes off the Councell groweth nothing to the Metropolitan but onely to sit in the highest place at meetinges This may also appeare by the same h Councell where yt is said that if there rise disorder in any churche vvhich is not compounded it ovvght to be decided at the prouinciall Councell which was therfore to be houlden twife euery yeare in which faultes vvere to be corrected not by the Metropolitane but by the bishops together And becawse the Councell here referreth vs to that accoustomed before yt is to be considered what that was so far as we haue testimonie The bishops assembled at Nice browght their quarrels one against an other and offred them to the Emperour which they would not haue doon at least so generally if there had bene any such order taken off referring their debates to the Metropolitan The Emperour likewise receiuing their bils and answering that it perteined not vnto him to decide those matters sendeth them not to their Metropolitanes to be iudged but adiourneth them to the iudgement off god Yet yf there had bene any suche autoritie ecclesiasticall off the Metropolitanes the Emperour as he was very religious in those obseruations would not by all likelihood haue failed in that Likewise writing ioyntly to Alexander bishop and Arius Elder off Alexandria amongeste other thinges he saith it vvas not meet they should rule so great a people being deuided amōge them selues Where it is to be obserued that howsoeuer thes wordes so great a people be taken whether for the churche off Alexandria or for all Agipt c. the Bishop gouerned not alone but by cōsent and aduise of the Elders of that church Then if the Ans will refer this gouernement to the whole countreis off Aegypt Lybia c. and take it in that signification he doth for bearing dominion and commaunding the rest not the bishop onely but euery Elder off Alexandria had commaundement not onely ouer the Elders but ouer the bishops them selues off other churches Which if it be absurd that whereoff it followeth must be likewise This is all that I finde the Nicene Councell gyueth to the Metropolitan aboue the rest how litle it is and how small a part off that the Answ presumeth let the reader iudge That he owght to be no bishop which is made withowt consent off his Metropolitan is a very seely prerogatiue seing yt was the order of the church in those times that all the bishops off the Prouince shoulde be at the making off a Bishop And as the election off the people was voide if the Metropolitane were not at it so was it also if there were not three bishops at the least present Let vs see now whether the practise of the Metropolitanship will fall owt any more fanourable for this pretended iurisdiction Athanasius foloweth on whom the D. woulde fasten this archbishopricke firste because Ischaras submitted him selfe vnto him by lettres As if euery one which hath offended an other doothe by his submission acknowledge him an archbishop whom he hathe offended and as if Ischaras owght not to haue doone as muche vnto any bishop in the Prouince yf he had belonged vnto his parishe as he did vnto that of Athanasius Secondly becawse Arsenius and those off his diocese wrote lettres off submission vnto Athanasius The print off the diocese is so deeply set in the D. heade that what soeuer he meeteth with he turnethe into yt For there is there no mention off diocese but off a citie As for the submission he maketh yt is not to Athanasius but vnto the ecclesiastisticall canons onely he acknowledgeth him Metropolitane and that withowt his sentence he will make no Ecclesiasticall decree perteining vnto the churche which we denie not For we confesse that there were then Metropolitanes and as Arsenius coulde not make anie decree to wching the whole churche in the prouince no more coulde Athanasius withowte Arsenius as hath bene before owt off the former booke declared But that he was subiecte vnto Athanasius there ys not a worde the cleane contrary is to be plainly seene For Arsenius in his fare well writeth thus vve and those vvith vs salute the vvhole companie off sacred men vvhich are in thy iurisdiction by which wordes he manifestly exempteth him selfe frō the iurisdiction off Athanasius Wherupon yt muste folowe that the office off Metropolitaneship in those daies implied no subiection nor autoritie to commaunde ouer other bishops in his prouince And Athanasius in calling the bishops there his fellovv ministres often times declareth in what place he had them not as subiects but as his fellowes And that the A. escape not with that Popishe shifte that Athanasius therby did declare his humilitie yt is to be seene in that booke that the other bishops doo more then half a dosen times call him their felovve mynister barely withowte other title Now if Athanasins not off right but off his greate humilitie called him self their felowe mynister yet the other bishops in so calling him when they were subiecte vnto him and at his commaundement are to be charged not only as voide off Christian humilitie but also as forgetfull euen off all commen ciuilitie and good manners That added off Athanasius visiting off Mariotes and the Prouinces there as they are called perteineth nothing vnto this question for there were no bishops in that place and what he did in that behalfe did not as Archbishop but as Bishop that territory belonging vnto Alexandria And not onely Archbishops but bishops yea Elders visited the parishes off other bishops As for that the parishes in the territory off Mariotes had neuer◠bishop but belonged vnto Athanasius beside that I haue shewed that corruptions had greatly preuailed at that time it is to be obserued that it is there put as a strange thing and vnwonted that one bishop should haue so large grownd For vnles that be the autors ende there was no cause why he shoulde haue vsed that kinde off speach Which may better appeare forsomuche as Socrates speaking off this storie interlaceth the same sentence when as speaking off the places off bishops els where he neuer mentioneth any such thing The canons off Arles Councell off that attributed vnto the Apostles and of Antioch follow The first hath nothing not graunted and serueth for filling onely The second supposed of the Apostles ys the same with that of Antioch That off
As thowgh if the matter had bene committed to S. Paul onely it should not haue bene with the same bond off keping him to the word yet yt was not so committed as I haue alledged And if he think more succour for him in the wordes he vsed the archbishop must determin according to the rule of the church it is certein also that the companie of Apostles and Elders in Ierusalem and what companie soeuer meeteth together abowt the ending of such matters is subiect vnto all lawful and commendable orders off the churche prouided for the more orderly proceding in that behalf So that there being nothing here alledged by the D. which agreeth not vnto the Apostles and Angels themselues the excessiue autoritie off tharchbishop doth still appeare in that he alone endeth controuersies which in the Apostolike church was not committed but vnto many For as for that in the next diuis he compoundeth not controuersies by him self alone onles he meane that he hath his seruantes the Chaunceler and Archdeacon or some other off his owne châ—â—sâ— â–ª the booke set owt by tharchbishop of late doth declare the coÌ„trary and the experience off his visitacions and deposing off ministers doth openly conuince him of vntruth If he say he is not alone he hath them following him he must vnderstaÌ„d that becawse ether the archbishop carieth their voices vnder his girdell or yf they vse the freedome which is meet yet the approbacion dependeth vpon the archbishops beck he can no more account them to be diuers then a maÌ„ and his shadow following him And where in his former booke he saith the cheif office off an archbishop is to compound contentions schismes c. here being put to his shift he changeth his speach saying it is his principall office to prouide that contentions c. be cut of Where he addeth or els with the Princes consent he setteth an order in a prouinciall Synode If there be any Synode ether to take the iudgement owt off his hand or controll the sentence gyuen by him it is like to be sore against his will. So that the remedy off this mischief dependeth onely vpon the Cyuill power which if ether yt be ennemy to religion or entangled with the present heresie as hath and may herafter come to passe the churche being withowt remedy must languish and pyne away He saith this example of the matter caried to Ierusalem proueth that euery parish within yt self hath no absolute autoritie to end controuersies but it behoueth to resort vnto the cheif church the contrary wherof appeareth For in that they both debated the cawse amongest them selues and when they coulde not agree decreed to send yt to Ierusalem yt ys sufficiently declared that they had autoritie to end it amongeste them and that yt was not wrunge from them by necessitie off law or pretence off higher autoritie but voluntarily sent vp to Ierusalem Althowgh for this place in hand yt ys sufficient that the deciding off controuersies hung not vppon the mouth off one man were he neuer so sufficient but were referred vnto thassemblies of the Auncients and ministers of the word As for his olde shiftes of the weaknes of negatiue argumentes of autoritie and of examples of the scripture and thapostolike church their folie is opened before Here he taketh on against my vnskilfulnes in the scriptures which referred that vnto ministers which is spoken off all the church Howbeit if he had coÌ„ferred the text he should haue found that thapostle speaketh of the Prophe thes and not of the whole church For he biddeth that tvvo or three of the Prophetes should speake and the other that is to say Prophetes should gyue iudgement Which appeareth by the reasoÌ„ added the sprite off the Prophetes is subiect to the Prophetes Therfore the D. corrupteth the place and the argument to proue that not one minster but many owght to determin of doutfull causes is vntowched Where I pressed him with this that vnitie is fully mainteined by the ministeries vvhich God hath ordeined â–ª he asketh how oft I will alledge it Yf it be a fault in me to alledge one place often vpon diuers occasions what is it in him to alledge one thing so continually vppon the same occasion If he would haue opened his eyes he should haue seen that I vsed an argument proper to this place and not vsed before For where he pretendeth the archbishop was ordeined to kepe vnitie I shew that withowt him vnitie is perfectly kept wherunto he answereth nothing but as before But I will serue his tast and giue him change For the Apostle a litle before exhorting to vnitie bringeth also this reason one body one spirit one hope one Lord one faith one baptisme one God c. Wherby appeareth that the apostle tooke thes ones to be sufficient to kepe the people off God in vnitie And if to haue an archbishop had bene so necessary the apostle shoulde haue fowly forgotten him self hauing so fit a place to speake of him And as this is aptly opposed against the pretended peace by a Pope so is yt likewise against that surmised to be browght by the archbishop Where I ask vvhat buckler vve may haue to hould ovvt against the Papistes vvhich come vpon vs vvith the name of traditions off the apostles if vve admit that there vvere archbishops ordeined by them vvherof the scripture maketh no mention he answereth there can be no daunger in them so they be not made necessarie to saluacion but such as receiue alteracion Which althowgh it be cleane contrary to that he saide before where he bindeth vs to obseruation of them as I haue shewed yet it shall be sufficient here to let him vnderstand that he hath vtterly barred him self from this answer for that he saith this ministrie of the Archbishop is necessarie yea most necessarie Now if it be most necessarie for preseruacion of vnitie off the church yt is plaine that it is necessarie also for the saluacion of yt For the next diuis I haue shewed how absurdly the D. defendeth this rouing where let the reader iudge what difference there is betwene our archbishop and Ieromes bishop which differed nothing from a commen minister but that he had the ordeining off ministers And here I call once againe vpon him to shew any godly and learned writer which expoundeth this place of Ierome off an archbishop to see if he be any happier in this place then he was before in Cyprians The Bishop off Salisb affirmeth that the very meaning off Ierome is off euery bishop in his dioces and Harding in the end beaten downe with the light off the place is compelled to confesse it The next I leaue to the reader to iudge by that alledged on both sides The D. saith I refuse Ierome in a matter off storie yet I denie no part off his storie wherin he seemeth to haue lost all commensense For who in
base citie equall vvith the reste referreth that to the deacons vvhich in some places vvere preferred before the elders who seeth not but that speaking against the truthe he was so amazed that wordes comminge from him reason stickethe yet in his penne For what reason is there that Ierome shoulde therfore saie the bishop off Eugubium vvas equall vnto the Bishop off Rome notvvithstanding the bishop off Rome vvere his superior because the deacon vvas preferred in Rome before the elder What giue is here to ioyne thes together or what cawse was there that Ierome shoulde speake basely off the metropolitanes autoritie ouer the bishop because the deacon was preferred before the elder ys there anie reason that because the deacon did iniurie vnto the elder therfore Ierome shoulde speake sparingly of the metropolitane â—nd doo him iniurie also moreouer if this was the occasion why he spake so off a bishop because certeine deacons were preferred before the elders considering that that coustome was onely at Rome as Ierome him self declareth why should he make the bishop off Tanais a small towne in Egypte equall with the bishop off Alexandria the metropolitane citie there and the bishop Rhegium equall with the bishop off Constantinople For seing that mischeif off the preferment off Deacons before the elders was not in other places then in Rome there was no cause why he should speake thus off theÌ„ if that had bene the cause which Erasmus alledgeth Where he addeth vvhen Ierome saith the bishops and elders vvere equall that is to be vnderstanded that the elder vvas equall vvith the bishop in that they vvere bothe preferred vnto the deacon I meruaile the Ans is not ashamed to alledge that saying without all colour off truthe For I haue alledged diuers other places owte off Ierome where he speaking absolutely withoute respecte off any deacon affirmeth the bishop and elder all one in the beginning And what a ridiculous disputacion doth he make Ierome to hould For it is all one as if a maÌ„ after longe discourse to proue LondeÌ„ and Yorke equall in the ende shoulde conclude that Yorke were equall with London because they be bothe greater then Nuington Now let the reader iudge what vnworthie outcries the D. vseth bothe before and after off guilful dealing and shifting the place of Ierome therby to drowne the voice of the trwthe and whether I haue interpreted it according to his naturall meaning and as other godlie and learned haue doone and whether he contrarily to mainteine his firste saying hath vsed shiftes partely popishe ouerthrowinge the answers off those which haue trauailed againste popery aswell as mine partely fonde and childishe which he woulde beare owt with Erasmus autoritie withowt any weight off reason Likewise how he after dallieth in his longe translation and repetition of Ierome to no purpose That a doctor differeth from a pastor hathe bene shewed that he is inferior vnto him appeareth not onely because the Apostle placeth him after where he dothe moste exactly set downe the order off preaching ministers but also that the giftes required for that office are as hathe bene shewed lesse wherunto may be added the practise off the elder churches which estemed the doctor alwaies vnder him whom they called bishop or Pastor That the elder which gouerneth onely is inferior to the Doctor appeareth bothe in that his giftes be fewer and that the Apostel giueth more honour to him then to the elder That Deacons are vnder those elders for that their charge is to serue the tables onely and therfore but a part off the churche where the elders gouernemeÌ„t is ouer the whole Likewise for that the deacons charge being in thinges perteining to the nourishement off the body muste gyue place to that off the elders whose watche is ouer the sowles Al which the ministery off the Doctor onely excepted which is shut vp commoÌ„ly in the bishop is confirmed by continuall practise off the churche which vppon all occasions off speaking off this ministerie placeth the bishop before the elder and the elder before the deacon and precisely the foresaid Ignarius sheweth that the deacon is vnder the elder thelder vnder the bishop where that thelder which onely gouerneth and not onely he which teacheth is vnderstanded at which hole the D. would creepe out shall be after in proper place declared So appeareth that order in the ministery and diuersitie off degrees are defined off by the word of God and that euen in the Ecclesiasticall ministery ther is inequalitie althowgh all pastors be equall amongeste them selues and withall that order standeth withowt the archbishop or any other deuised ministery Chrysost browght by me is shamfully corrupted and the corruption opened in the former diuis his allegations there owght to be rulers in the church and order to punishe faultes so erksomly repeted are Idle yt being confessed and withall shewed that there is none off those but are doone withowt his ether bishop or Archbishop where hauing no reason he falleth to exhortacion that I would not stand in my conceite but thincke the gouernement off his bishop better then that laid forth by vs if he can compound with the word of God with the reformed churches Apostolical and present with the purest writers ould and newe I with my conceites as he speeaketh will be ready to hould tharchbishops stirup That he affirmeth the forme off gouernement wherin one is aboue all necessary in our commen wealthe althowgh I haue shewed that I greatly allow of it yet that yt is necessary and that the Prince and ParlemeÌ„t can not vpon occasion alter yt especially without breache off the lawe off God which onely maketh the necessitie vve speake of ys an vntrwth apparant to all that haue euer tasted off holy or humane letters And althowghe yt semeth he hath couenanted vvith him self to speake all he supposeth may please yet his knowledge answering not his wâ—ll he is found here to abridge the authoritie off the ciuile powre which he thowght to haue stretched owt and to binde it to that which the lord lefte at the libertie theroff Where he saithe the externall gouernement off the church vnder a Christian magistrat muste be according to the kinde and forme of gouernement vsed in the comon wealth it partly hath aÌ„d further God willing shall appeare that the gouernemeÌ„t of the church debated is certein by the vvord off God and vnchangeable As for his bolt so soone shot and with so smal drafte of reason yt is brokeÌ„ with the vvinde off his owne mouth For where he maketh the externall gouernement throwghe owte his whole booke at the pleasure of the Prince which is his principall hould here he teacheth that yt is not in the princes powre onles she will ether put of or deuide her crowne vvith others to put downe the archbishop for the externall gouernement off the church saith he muste be according to the kinde and forme off gouernement off the comon wealth
nedes be affirmed to apperteine vnto the elder neither doth Epiphanius answer the reason owt off S Paule that Timothe was ordeined by imposition off handes off the companie off elders Likewise that browght off a bishop aboue an elder because S. Paule vvilleth Timothe not to rebuke an elder to let goo other faultes as many as are wordes in the sentence yt is absurde that he referreth that vnto an elder by office which is spoken of an elder by yeares and referreth that to the publicke minister which is vnderstanded onely off a priuate membre off the churche as appeareth manifestly by the opposition off a yong man and after off the elder woman So I leaue to be estemed what good cause the D. hath to couer his face in that wheroff he so greatly vaunteth The next diuision is answered In the next I leaue it to the reader whether the D. order hath the heeles vpward which after endeuoure to shew the necessitie the causes yea the examples off a thinge setteth him selfe to proue that it was Althowgh if this be his trim order he hath kept it euill for Chrysostome browght for confirmacion off the first comethe after Ierome which is browght to beare vp his seconde That Ignatius bishop was but off one particular congregation onely I haue shewed and therfore the wordes ouer all pressed off the D. as they are off Pigghius from whence this was taken are vnderstanded of those within his particular churche Besides the kinde of speach may be easelier drawen vnto the whole worlde then off a diocese or prouince for the reason assigned in my former booke That the bishop owght to be aboue the elders which onelie gouerned and deacons is confessed yf he were aboue the teaching elders that was by custome whether good or bad let it be iudged off that said Howbeit that that be graunted yt maketh nothing to proue a bishop ouer a diocese muche lesse an Archbishop When the bishop in euerie church or to speake as the D. in euerie diocese was the Cheife aboue whom there coulde not by this Ignatius be any higher bishop in earthe I leaue yt to the readers iudgement how absurde the D. is who saith that Ignatius dothe not ouerthrow his Archishop for therby he affirmeth that albeit the bishop off the Diocese were the highest bishop that coulde be vpon earthe yet there might be an other higher then he Also how fonde he is in his reason that for as muche as an archbishop is a bishop therfore Ignatius allowing one allowethe the other When yt is manifest by his owne confession that Ignatius speaketh off one onely sort off bishops either of one particular church as the trwthe is or off one diocese as he imagineth So that his argument is Ignatius allowethe one sort off bishops therfore the Archbishop all one as if a man should say he hath a kinde off fishe in his moate therfore a whale fishe The D. detected in that Iustins president was neither bishop off diocese nor Archbishop off Prouince but of one congregation for excuse saith he browght the place to proue there might be superioritie ouer the ministers Where first his trim order that all my logicke and Rhetoricke is not able to moue is too pitifull for how childishe is yt after so long trauaile to proue a bishop ouer the ministers off a diocese and tharchbishop of a Prouince in the ende to endeuour to proue that ther may be superioritie as if any man would denie this that graunted the other and yt is to set the fondacion vpon the louer yet I would know off him what meanethe the word this wherby appeareth not onelie that he browght yt to proue superioritie but the superioritie either off a bishop ouer a whole diocese or an Archbishop ouer a Prouince considering that this is the superiority which he speake of before and im̄ediatelie after Secondly where I bothe by the vse of the scriptures and auncient writers shewed the word Brethren not taken for the gouernours but the people obserue how vainly he answerth that Iustine meant the ministers and deacons by brethren because he calleth the people after by the name off people As if the rest off the church were not called both in scripture ād other writers by diuerse names Thirdly how if it be graunted that Iustins presidēt had superioritie ouer the minister yet how fondly yt is concluded that yt is lawfull because yt was Then how his weapons fetched from Maister Beza haue alwaies their edge towarde him and his cause For he alledgeth him to proue that Iustins president did gouerne the reste and had the name off bishop which in the same place flatly condemneth that pollicie as is declared Lastly how by this answer he maketh euerie pastor off a congregacion to handle the gouernemen which before he tooke from him when he shutteth him vp in the administracion of the word and samentes only Iustines writinges compared as I compared them with the holie scripture are as I said a ditche I added the reason that ther was in them not a litle mudd off errors which the D. could not answer otherwise I acknowledge him both godlie and learned Maister Beza sought not the word president in Iustine but sheweth how Timothe did the office at Ephesus which Iustines president did which was meete considering he had a higher ministerie then any there So that althowgh Timothe aboue the degree off a bishop kept that presidentship continually during his abode yet there was no reason that one Pastor off the same degree with other should take that vpon him Yf he were the true Ignatius he should in dede be before Iustin but to let passe other exceptions withe M. Caluins sharpe censure off him yt is absurde to ascribe to Ignatius S Iohns scholer that vaine boaste off being able to expound the orders off Angells their varieties the distinctions and differēces betwene vertues powers Thrones c. That priest is no fit name for a minister off the gospell is towched after that the names proper to our S. Christ can be cōmunicated with man is absurd and before confuted where also the name off Prince a peace off Prince off Priestes is shewed vnfit fer the ministery That there may be one Archbishop ouer bishops as there is one bishop ouer pastors hathe no parte trw as hathe bene shewed onely let yt be noted that the reason here for the Archbishop is Hardinges for the Pope This argument browght before and after to proue our Archbishops iurisdiction that one had care of the whole Prouince here is pursued wherunto I answer here that care dothe not necessarily draw iurisdiction or rule ouer that cared for seing that there is no minister I might haue said also no magistrate yea no priuate membre which owght not to haue and shew forthe a care off all the churches which are in Christendome euery one according to the meanes which
so strong to carrie the metropolitaneship ouer all these places to Chrysostome as Nazianzenes wordes before handled are to carrie the metropolitaneship off almost all the churches in the worlde vnto Cyprian For these wordes he had the same care can not be vnderstoode as the D. would that he did the same thinges in all places which he did at Constantinople For how could he teache and rebuke sin in all that circuite as there depriue and excommunicate in proper person as there so that will he nil he the wordes must haue a restreint in respecte off those before as for the greke word he translateth he gouerned which signifieth he adorned vnles he haue some singular licence i◠is for a translation especially too riotous althowghe if that were there yt drawethe no metropolitane autoritie as hathe bene shewed in Cyprians example I graunt Sozomenes are more pressing which speakethe off his deposing off the bishops in Asia and if to mainteine my former answere I would say he deposed them not by his autoritie but by his counsaile as Diophantus said off the cytie of Athenes ruled by him because Themistocles his father vvhich ruled yt vvas guided by his mother and his mother by him and therto alledge that he is called the Doctor off the vvoride by the same Theodoret when notwithstanding he coulde not be an authorised doctor off suche a compas yt would peraduenture be more then he can wel answer But if he will as he dothe make that his paterne to frame his Archbishop by he maketh vs a faicrer but to shoote at then before the archbis being made therby in authoritie off breaking canons off the best Councells by putting in and putting owte off his absolute power not infeferior vnto the pope of Rome and in compasse off dominion aboue him and a fatter Pope then he And beside that it is but trifling to fetche examples off Archbishop like gouernement fower hundrethe yeares and a halfe after Christe or there abowt where the question is off three hundrethe I haue shewed how daungerous yt is to builde vpon the examples off those times especially when euen in this pointe off broad dominion before Chrysostomes time there was an intollerable excesse in the bishop off Antioche which beside Chrysostomes compas had also all Illyricum Towching Ireneus ambassage into Phrigia the D. eye is not simple For after Euseb had shewed that there were Ambassadours sent by the frenche churches to those off Phrigia he addeth as an augmentation that they vvere also sent to the bishop off Rome After to the ende the ambassage might haue more autoritie he sheweth how Ireneus was sent being commended vnto the bishop off Rome to the end as may easely appeare that his letter also obteined with theirs the churches might be the rather moued Whether I haue followed the Scoliastes meaning towching euerie hishop hauing a seuerall congregation I referre me to that I haue before alledged The D. answer to Chrysostome which placeth the bishops charge in one citie that he dothe but shew how the Bishop ys subiecte to as many afflictions as the Emperour and that he puttethe no difference betwene the Bishop and the Emperour is but a cauill For his pourpose is to shew what are the manifold troubles that accompanie the mynistery therby to pinche those which seeke after yt and that he dothe with an argument off comparison in that being but bishop off one citie yet he is subiecte not onely to so many but to moe troubles then the Emperour which hath so large gouernement Now if bishops autority should be extended as the D. estemeth Chrysostomes who seeth not that his cōparison halteth downe right considering that there were few Emperours or rather none sithens Constantine that euer had so large dominion as this ascribed vnto Chrysostome For against this argument yt might haue bene easely replied off those which laie in waite for the ministerie that seing one was able to gouerne so many whole countreis and nations yt could not be so hard a matter to gouerne one onely citie I could not here be put to shifte seing where our question is off 300. yow fetche your proufes off 400. whether I haue said trew let the reader iudge Where I alledge the first acte off the Calcedon Councell that the bishops cried that Theodoret vvas no bishop be alledgeth the 8. acte that he was If yt be a simple answere to set one author against an other yt is muche more simple to set one autoritie at variaunce with yt selfe withowt shewing any way of reconciliatiō That the Councell did well in condēning that Theodoret appeareth for that he had writtē against Cyril euen in that Cyrill wrote against Nestorius errors in which respecte his bookes were commaunded to be burnte with those errors And this was not onely done by the Councel off Calcedon but by that also off Ephesus and Constantinople so that here are three condemnations passed against him for one absolution And that what maner off one verelie which appeareth to haue bene throwghe the fauour off the Emperour Martian For what if he reuoked his heresie there as he had I thinck done before in the Councel off Constantinople yet as I haue shewed there was no cause why he should be trusted with suche a greate charge no not in the D. iudgemēt I suppose so soudenlie and withowt further triall Which I say not to discredite his trew repentance and learned writinges but onely to shew how totteringlie the D. Archbishop is set Where I alledged that the Emperour Theodosius and Valētinian cōmaunded him to kepe him to his ovvne church onely his answere is fond that the Emperours meaning was that he should not come to the Synode For are these two all one to kepe him self to his ovvne churche onely and not to come to the Synode When he might come to the synode althowghe he kept not him selfe to his owne churche onely which he could not haue done yf they had bene all one Where he saithe yt appeareth that the Emperour gaue that charge that he should not come vnto the Synode but called yt maketh nothing to the pourpose For that may well stand with that I alledged off his keping to one churche onely And in dede there had bene small wisdome to haue forbidden him the Councell in respecte off the heresie he laboured off and yet to haue suffred him to gouerne such a mightie people When I expounded tares hipocrites I had not the booke before me but trusting therin to Theodoretes knowledge in the scripture estemed that he meant them off whom the parable is vnderstanded that is those off whose ether corruption in life or doctrine the churche can haue no certeine knowledge to procede againste or to giue as he did sentence vpon Neither is he yet purged off the suspicion considering that yt can hardly be belieued that ther was not in 800. churches one onely heretike And if ther were
b Diuis 9. pag. 442. c Councel Neocaesar d Possido in vita August Instit 4. l. ca. 4. 3 se vpon the eight coÌ„ â–ª maund a in the praef to the 3. ca. of this tr b vpon Phil. ca. 1. c 2. cap. off this tra Diuis 15. pag 445. Euse li. 1. de vit Const a Athana Apol. 2. b Costerius in the life off Ambro. c IeroÌ„ ad Rusticum Monach. d 1. Cor. 10 e Ier. vpon Titus Ier ad Oceanum f Di. 16. 17 pag. 446. g 4. carth 14. 15. ca. Tyron c. 5 Pag. 471 â–ª In the booke intituled the Discipline c. a 4. conc Cart. c. 32 Sozom. lib. 3. c. 9. Athanas 2. Apol. b August Epist â—0 a Possido invit Au. b Roma cap â–ª 3. c vpoÌ„ the eight coÌ„maund a Cal. inst 4. lib ca. â— sect 17. a M. Fox in the boke off M. Tindal c. b VpoÌ„ the 8. coÌ„maund c M. Elm. d 473. e Possid in vit August f Ad NepotianuÌ„ opa 472. â— pag. 83. pag. 200. pag. 473. Pag. 473 Conc. Ty roÌ„ 3 can 5. pag. 473. Diuis 18. pag. 447. Cart. c 34 Iud. 8. v. Diuis 19. pag. 447. Euseb 7. li. ca. 30. Ruffin 1. lib. ca. 19. Athana Apol. 2. Diuis 20. pag. 448. Ioh. 20. 1â— Theod li. 5. cap. 8. Socr. li. â— cap. 6. Diuis 21. pag 449. a 1. Tim. 3 â— c Vpon the 8. coÌ„maund Ierom. ad Nepot Diuis 22. pag. 450. Diuis 23. 24. 25. pag. 451. 1. Tim. 6. 6. 8. vpon 4. Ephes Diuis 26. pag. 452. CAP. VI. Pag. 454. 1. Cor. 4. 1. Diuis 4. pag. 455. * Tract 1. Diui. 6. pag. 457. a Diui. 15. pag. 367. vpon the Ephes e Diu. 42. pag. 390. Diuis 7. pag. 458. 1. Cor. 15. 9. Diuis 10. pag. 461. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Diui. 11. pag. 462. Heb. 5. 5. 6 a Diu. 31. pag. 380. Diuis 33. Pag. 381. b Diu. 14. pag. 465. c Diu 32 pag. 381. Diuis 41. pag. 389. d Diui. 33. pa. 381. e di 1617. pag. 467. f Diu. 41. pag. 389. a Diu 43. pag. 390. Diuis 50. pag. 396. Diuis 70. pag 417. b Diu. 18. pag. 469. Iohn 3. 8. a d 70. 71 pag. 4. 7. b â— Tract c in the 2. and 3. ca. off this Tract d di 16. 17 pag. 446 Throwgh desire off making no great chaunge off the order laid forth by the Doctor vvherby the reader should be muche troubled in collatioÌ„ of our bokes and partly for that my papers vvent so sone to the printâ— vvherby I could not correct that my self aftervvard misliked at is come to pas that there are diuers thinges vvherin by order it might haue bene better prouided for memory VVhich I haue partly endeuoured to help by this direction vvherby yt shall not be vneasy to finde any off the principal pointes conteined in this book THe scripture is a perfect rule off all actions which can fall into maÌ„s life aswell in defining thinges vnnariable as in giuing rules wherby thinges variable by circunstance may be compassed page lvij c. Whether refer that wherin is shewed what of Moses law remaineth page xciij Likewise that the Actes of thapostles are necessary for vs to folow page clv. As appeareth namely in the gouernement off the church disputed throwghowt the whole book and in that communitie they vsed which is not now Anabaptisticall cc. viij Hether also refer that yt is the vertue off a good law to leaue as litle as may be in the discretion off the iudge xciiij Also that yt ys one thing to be expressed and an other to be commaunded in the scripture xlv Wherupon the argument off autoâ—â—â—ie off the scripture is good 43. 81 But nawght from men especially in diuine matters xviij and xlvij Whether refer that the Godly writers and holie martyre died in error vj. Wheroff the example browght by me off free will is handled 54. an other browght by the D. off the millenaries althowgh he in part slaundereth the ould fathers in that behalf delij Discipline Ciuil THe magistrat ought to be seuerer in punishing offeÌ„ces vnder the gospell then vnder the law cxj. cxviij Neglecters off the word are punishable by the word lxx The law off capitall punishements remaineth xcviij Contemners off the word ought to be put to death lxviij Murtherers cij Incestuous and adulterous persons c. The punishing off the breaches off the second Table by death and not off the first is to begin at the wrong end cxvij Discipline Ecclesiasticall THe Ecclesiasticall discipline is prescribed in the word as the doctrine ccccxl Aswell vnder the gospell as vnder the law ibid. Amplified by comparison off the Ark Tabernacle Temple ccccxliiij Confirmed by examples off Dauid and Salomon which attempted nothing in the church gouernement without the expres word off God ccccxliiij Also off others lxxxvj That the form theroff owght not to be allwaies according to the forme off the coÌ„mon wealth cxxx clix ccxcviij dciiij That yt ys not allwaies conuenient that the form of the commen wealth should beframed to the form off the churche gouernement ccxxvij That the churche gouernement is one off the three markes off the church liij That yt is safely taken from the Apostels times and dauÌ„gerously from the first 500. yeares after them That the externall gouernement off the church is euill distinguished from the spiritual That yt hindereth not the ciuil discipline ij Calling THe callinges vnâ—â— the mynistery are defined off in the word of god For tha 〈◊〉 â— giftes necessary for the gouernement off the church fall into the offices prescribed in yt 462. Where are rehersed the proper giftes wherby they are seuered amoÌ„gest theÌ„ selues This is also shewed by that it is not lawfull to diminish those the lord hath set and therfore not to ad vnto them cccclxiiij Likewise by the demaunde the Pharisies made vnto Iohn ccccxxxvj A calling lawfull and yet extraordinary page xxxâ—â—j The Apostels Prophetes and Euangelistes are euil distinguished by the D. cccvij There can be none off these functions now withowt an extraordinary calling ccciij The same coulde not be a bishop Euangelist and Apostle at once cccxviij Epaphroditus was no Apostle in that sense that S. Peter was ccciiij An Euangelist could not withowt his fault be made a bishop much les could an Apostle 321. Timothe was an Euangelist and no bishop cccxij The abusing off the writers both ould and nue to proue Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes ordinary ministers cccxxvij What maner a men they were which after those sent foorth into the whole world called them selues Apostles cccviij Hereupon we refuse the callinges of Archbishop otherwise called MetropolitaÌ„ and our kinde of bishop ArchdeacoÌ„ and deane as those which taken euen for the very principall church officers haue no ground in the word of God Proued in that they are conteined in nether of the places off the Ephesians or Corinthians where al the ministeries Ecclesiasticall are
absurdities laied vppon this foundacion as that the promesse off the assistance off gods spirit is as well gyuen to writers of homilies and their hearers as to studiers for sermons and those which heare them as if he had saied the Lord will giue testimonie to his word as wel by the meanes which mē haue deuised as that him self hath ordeined Likewise that sermons should be kept owt off the church as well as homilies if they should be shut owt because they are mennes interpretation considering that the preacher albeit he be a man yet in respect off his publicke ministery instituted and commaund of the Lord is as the angell off God yea as Christ him self which can not be saied off homily readers nor makers especially in that respect To that I alledge off the coustome off the Churches before our Sauiour Christes comming and after towching homilies not vsed in the church and that in such time vvhen there vvas greatest vse off them he answereth that the argument is of autoritie negatiuely where I leaue to the iudgement off the reader what likelihood there is that there were any homilies red in the church whē both holy and ecclesiasticall writers making mētiō of the forme of seruice of God in the church to the least and smallest ceremonies there is none diuers 100. yeares that ones vouchesafeth to mention homilies reading which the D. matcheth with preaching the highest seruice off God in his church Where he saith that I condemne thargument drawen off mennes autoritie yt is vntrue I said it constreineth not And I spake of it where yt is question off searching the truth off a matter wherin many easely deceiued none knoweth the full off it and not off reporting thinges doone in presence off him that writeth wherof he making profession to write can not withowt grosse ouersight passe by where he saith yt is an euill argument to conclude off a thing not doon that it shovld not be doon if the churches gouerned by the Prophetes and Apostles did it not it being put as a peece off the seruice off God and as the D. saith necessary ether they faulted in not vsing this meanes which is absurd or the D. which defendeth the vse off it He saith I can not but acknowledge one good sermon red to edify more then the Chalde paraphrastes so destitute off meanes to refute the reason I set downe why a short paraphrasis was meeter then homilies namely for that they approched nerer vnto the reading off the scripture vvhich is best he setteth his cause at my courtesie But if I graūt that he asketh he is nothing nerer onles he can proue that a learned homily is fitter then a learned paraphrase made now in this great light which the Chalde paraphrastes could not haue when they wrote So that although they expounding darckly according to the time they wrote in be not so fit now to reade as an homily yet yt standeth still that a pharaphrast is fitter to be red then an homily Where he saith I know that the Iewes haue thes paraphrastes yet red I shewed both by scripture ād otherwise that they had thē not openly red when there was greatest neede off them Yf they had them after when diuers corruptions were entred or now when they are the synagogue off Satan tha◠maketh rather for me They which tould hym that Ionathan was 42. yeares before our Sauiour Christ if they ment therby to confute that I set downe should haue gyuen him something to answer the autoritie I alledged Although he might be well 42. yearers before our Sauiour Christ and then too considering he was schoole fellow to Symeon off whom S. Luke maketh mention The testimonies off Denis and Clements Epistles red in the church to proue it vntrue which I affirmed off the churches practise towching reading off the scriptures alone after the Apostles tmes are in that respect idle considering that I onely shewed that that coustome continued after their tymes which were the best and purest Nether can the breaking off this order by some churches vppon some occasion let why it may not truly be saied both the coustome and practise Yf the Centuries coniecture were receiued that Denis epistles were red as Clementes yet that proueth not that they were red generally considering that Clements was red but in certeine churches But what if it be saied that they were red in those churches for that they were vntruly thowght of the Canon of the scripture Wherto serueth not onely that Denises were called Catholike but Clements weighty and wonderfull Likewise that Euseb esteeming Clement the canonicall translatour off the epist. to the Hebrues yt is not vnlike but he had that epistle in like estimation Last off all for that as he lightly reiected the true canonicall bookes off Saint Iames Iude and second off Saint Peter so he lightly held those for canonicall which were not yf I answer thus my coniecture hath better reason then yow yet shew and then the reading off these epistles helpeth yow not yow haue onely Soters which help nothing more being red onely at Corinth Howbeit it shall be sufficient answer that as other corruptions crept in then so the seed of this began to be sowen and that the credit which yowr cawse gaineth in that diuerse churches red them yt leeseth in that diuerse others receiued them not Likewise it maketh against him that the councell giueth no place vnto homilies but in extreme cases off sicknes c. off the minister where he maketh them the peoples ordinary food The councell as it were in a great drowght or snow when all is couered will haue the sheep holpen with this hard meat the D. will haue it their commen allowance Beside that it is the obiectiō which I myself im̄ediatly after preuented my answer wherunto the D. towcheth not but onely affirmeth it a good decree and no cawse off corruption which is grosse beggery considering that I shew how vppon occasion theroff in time came in the popish Legend and Gregories homilies which iustled owt the holy Bible Where I shewed that Bucers wordes secme counterfeit wherby he is browght exhorting to encrease the nomber off homilies when the Lord should blesse the realme with learned preachers forasmuch as there were then learned preachers able to make homilies which should haue exceded the volume of the Bible he answereth that there is no cause to suspect them but the reason he can not answer After he cyteth M Ridly but fondly for if the autority off all those which established that order be not able to make yt good much lesse his alone and being a party in this cawse he owght not albeit a singular mā be witnes Where I alledged the councell councell of Laodicea ordeining that nothing should be red in the church but the canonicall scripture he answereth the councell ment nothing vnder the name of holy scriptures which is an open and shamefull corruption for