from shrine to shrine to encrease your offerings which wickednes if S. Hierom had seene in his time he would haue taunted you a litle better than euer he did Vigilantius In the prayers which were made to God at his Altar we graunt with S. Austine The commendation of the dead by the custome of the Vniuersall Church had a speciall place but your prayer for soules in Purgatorie was neuer Catholique And where you send vs to S. Austens Enchiridion ca. 110. for that kind of prayer looke againe to the wordes and you shall find there no certaine doctrine but a doubtfull diuision consisting of three partes and not one of them prouing your Purgatorie When the sacrifices of the Altar or any other almes are offered for all that were baptized before they died for such as are very good they be saith he thankesgiuings to God for those that be not altogether ill they be propitiations that is procuring of mercie for such as be very bad though they be no helpers to the dead they bee some comforts to the liuing and whome they profite they profite them thus farre either to purchase them ful remission or at least more tolerable damnation The first part of this diuision that sacrifices for the dead are thankesgiuings to God is a poynt that now you can not heare of the last that they comfort the liuing but helpe not the dead by no meanes you will admit the middle is it that you stand on and that is nothing but this whom they profit they procure either full remission or at lest a more tolerable damnation Where S. Austen doth not affirme which of the twaine they shall procure but vseth a disiunctiue and of the twaine rather enclineth to the later as the likelier by correcting him selfe in this wise they shall haue remission or at lest a more tolerable damnation And for your better assurance that S. Austen on whom you relie neuer taught your Purgatorie for a matter of Catholique faith we send you back to the same father and the same booke the 69. chapter where he sayth It is not incredible that there is some such thing after this life and whether it be so it may be a question and it may be either found out or lie hid that some of the faithfull obteine saluation by a Purgatorie fire so much the sooner or later by howe much the more or lesse they loued the transitorie goods of this life If it may lie hid then is it no ground of Christian faith which must be fully beleeued of all men neither coulde the prayers of the Church depende vpon the doubtfull opinion of Purgatorie which by S. Austens owne iudgement is superfluous to be discussed and most dangerous to be resolued The rest of your places in this chapter amounting to the number often doe you litle good and vs lesse harme we receiue them without exception or distinction The words of Maximinus the Arrian you wittingly peruert to make them like ours wherein you discouer your malice and touch not our doctrine for Arius as you may reade in that disputation which Athanasius had with him vpbrayded the fathers for vsing the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not found in all the bookes of the new or old testament whereas the Church of Christ alwayes professed to beleeue nothing but what was plainely written in the sacred scriptures The selfe same cauil Maximinus vrged S. Augustine with Hae verò voces quae extra scripturam sunt nullo casu a nobis suscipiuntur These wordes and not as you translate these sayings which are not in the scripture by no meanes we receiue This obiection wee grant was both foolish and hereticall and if wee vrge you with any such spare vs not We striue with you not for names words but for poynts and Principles of faith and those we say must bee proued by the scriptures S. Paul sayd so before vs Faith is by hearing hearing out of the word of God Mauger your traditions and vnwritten verities this is a Christian and Catholique position which all the fathers confirme with one consent as shall be shewed in place conuenient In the meane time wee saie with Basill that I trowe was no Arrian Manifestus est a fide lapsus crimen maximae superbiae vel a scripto recedere vel non scriptum admittere It is a manifest fall from faith and a sinne that argueth infinite pride either to leaue that which is written or admit that which is not written Your sixt chapter handleth no matter of religion as being purposely made to excuse you from Treason and hath nothing in it any way materiall saue onely that vpon the name of Masse-priest you fall into a great rage and will needes proue the Apostles themselues the ancient fathers of all ages were masse priests And that you do ful clarkly For wheresoeuer you find the word oblation or sacrifice in any father you presently put him in the Decke for a masse-Priest I maruaile you be not ashamed professing so deepe knowledge to send vs ouer such vaine trifles The very children in England doe knowe the Lordes supper is a sacrifice of thankesgiuing a memoriall of Christes oblation on the crosse dayly renewing his death in a mysterie which is the true meaning of the twelue places that here you bring and of twelue hundred mo that might be brought to the like effect but this is nothing to the sacrifice of your masse where you professe that Christ is couered with accidents of bread and wine and offered really with your handes to God his father for the remission of your sinnes shewe but one father for this kinde of sacrifice and we will agnise not onely these whome you name but also Melchisedec and Malachie for Masse-priests Searching fiue hundred foure score and thirteene yeres after Christ with al diligence you find the worde Missa twise once in Ambrose and once in Leo and in a brauerie you demaund of vs Were they Masse-priests that sayd those masses But what if the word Missa did then not signifie the Masse but a dismissing of the Catechists before and of the faithful after the Lords supper where is your great and glorious triumphe become Looke to the fourth Counsell of Carthage the 84. Canon Let the Bishop forbid no man to enter the Church and heare the word of God neither Iew Gentile nor heretike vsque ad missam Catechumenorum that is till the Catechists be sent away not vntil the Catechists masse For they which were not yet baptized could not be present at the ministration of the Lords supper therefore Missa doth signifie the dismissing of them as the manner was in the primitiue Church to send away first the Catechists next the Repentants and last of all to giue the faithfull leaue to depart when the communion was ended which three dimissions were sometime called in the plurall number Missae
THE TRVE DIFFERENCE BETVVEENE CHRISTIAN SVBIECTION AND VNCHRISTIAN REBELLION WHEREIN THE PRINCES LAWFVLL power to commaund for trueth and indepriuable right to beare the sword are defended against the Popes censures and the Iesuits sophismes vttered in their APOLOGIE and DEFENCE OF ENGLISH CATHOLIKES With a demonstration that the thinges refourmed in the Church of England by the Lawes of this Realme are truely Catholike notwithstanding the vaine shew made to the contrary in their late Rhemish Testament by THOMAS BILSON Warden of Winchester Perused and allowed by publike authoritie Matth. 22. Yeelde to Caesar the things which are Caesars and to God the things which are Gods August contra epist. Permen Lib. 1. Cap. 7. These men inobedient and impious in either neither yeeld Christian loue to God nor humane feare to Princes AT OXFORD Printed by Ioseph Barnes Printer to the Vniuersitie MDXXCV TO THE MOST EXCELLENT VERTVOVS AND NOBLE PRINCESSE ELIZABETH BY THE GRACE OF GOD QVEENE OF ENGland France and Ireland Defendor of the faith c. MOST RENOWMED AND VERtuous Princesse I am in hope it shall seeme no presumption to offer these my rude labours to the sight view of your Maiestie The cause is Christs as being the defence of his will and ordinance who hath mercifully placed and mightily preserued your Highnes in your fathers throne and expecteth as it were in recompence that the power which he hath giuen you and honor which hee hath heaped on you should bee imployed to protect his trueth and safegarde his Church within your Realme Which your religious and gratious disposition so wisely considereth and so carefully putteth in execution that not onely with good liking you beare the title to bee DEFENDOR of the Christian faith but with manie daungers and some enuie you stoupe to the verie burden of harbouring the afflicted and helping the distressed by all conuenient and godly meanes not refusing with Princely courage and constancie to endure the displeasures and abide the disfauours of such as seeke to restoare or vphold the decayed and accursed kingdome of Antichrist A thing rare in so high a state but a great blessing from God our Sauiour to be both protectour of his persecuted seruaunts and partaker of his sonnes reproches which perhappes worldly mindes doe warilie shun but your Christian wisedome well perceiueth to be the assured signe of Gods fauour and to haue his vndoubted promise of an immortall and farre more glorious Crowne than this which hee hath alreadie possessed you with This good long experience of your Maiesties most willing inclination and affection to plant pietie and relieue innocencie might embolden mee if there were no farther cause to presse to your Highnesse for the Patronage of so good a purpose but as the case nowe standeth besides this generall inducement I haue a speciall â—nforcement to leade mee to this onset The whole discourse doth so directly and namely treate of your Maiesties Scepter Sworde and Crowne that neither I might aske protection of anie other but of your royall person nor such demurres be published without your Highnesse leaue So is it most gratious Soueraigne that certaine your subiectes borne forsaking your happie gouernment and their natiue Countrie vpon doubt of Religion as they pretend haue feated themselues in two Societies or Colleges which they call Seminaries founded and furnished at the Popes charges beyond the Seas the one at Rome the other at Rhemes with purpose thither to drawe the best wittes out of England as well from both vniuersities as from other Grammer schooles there to traine them to their fansies and faction and thence to direct them backe into this Realme for the reconciling of poore soules as they say to the Catholike Church or in truer termes for the peruerting of simple and ignorant persons from the duetie which they owe to God and your Highnesse This attempt beeing throughlie looked into by the Lordes and others of your Maiesties most wise and worthie Counsel was thought as in deede it is verie dangerous and pernicious to your Realme that the capitall enuier of your state disturber of your peace and pursuer of your person should allure and abuse so great a number of your subiectes with a shewe of liberalitie and haue them in such bondage by the Rules of their Societie that they must obeie the will of their SVPERIOR the Popes Agent among them none other-wise than they would the voice of Christ from heauen for so them-selues professe and thereupon by your Highnesse authoritie proclamation was giuen out that none should depart the Realme without licence and a time prefixed for those that were abroade to returne home vpon some paines there specified farther threats if your Highnesse were thereunto prouoked The Guiders of these vngodlie Societies in steede of obeying your Highnesse edict fell to defend their owne act in departing this Land and resorting to Rome as also the Popes intent in erecting those Seminaries and appoincting a number of them to be sent into England to reduce the Realme to the Romish obedience which they call the faith of their fathers And because they were to laie the fault of their vnlawful departure long absence either on them-selues which they would not or on the state from which they were estraunged they declaring their founder by their fruites spared not in a slaunderous pamphlet of theirs intitled An Apologie and tâ—â—e declaration of the institution and 〈◊〉 of the two Englishe Colledges to charge your Christian milde and aduised regiment with no lesse crimes than heresie tyrannie and blasphemie as the onely causes why they departed and absented themselues so long from their naturall countrie agâ—ising none of your Ecclesiasticall Lawes to bee orderlie or duelie made but calling them straunge and vnnaturall dealings violent disorders which to all posteritie must needes breede shame rebuke repugnant to the lawes of God the church nature and most of all spurning at the act and othe which abolished the Popes vsurped power out of this Realme and declared your Highnesse to bee the SVPREME bearer of the sworde and establisher of publike Lawes within your Dominions a power confirmed to Princes by God and therefore not to be infringed or claimed by Priestes or Popes And to make their matter more saleable in the eares of the simple they vsed all their Rhemish art and eloquence to deface and traduce that right of your authoritie and bande of our obedience with cauilling Sophismes florishing termes as if that SOVERAIGNTIE vsed by your Highnesse were a thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall impossible and the O THE yeelded by vs intollerable repugnant to God the Church your Maiesties honour and al mens consciences Of such wastfull words and mightie bragges that booke is full hauing otherwise for matter and proofe nothing in it that is worth the reading much lesse the answering as being rather a Rhetoricall declamation of an vngracious witte than a substantiall confirmation of their actes and
attemptes against God and the Magistrate But as it seemed they trusted rather to their practises which haue beene of late verie rife with the Church of Rome than to their proofes of which theie bee vtterlie destitute and therefore they dispatched into your Highnesse Realme vnder the conduction of one more presumptuous than learned as his writing and disputing whiles hee liued declared a whole swarme of Boie-priestes disguised and prouided at all assaies with secrete instructions how to deale with all sortes of men and matters and with commission from Rome to confesse and absolue such as they should winne with anie pretence or policie to mislike the state and affect noueltie and to take assuraunce of them by vowe othe or other meanes that they shoulde bee euer after adherent and obedient to the Church of Rome and to the faith thereof which there made the ruder and vnwiser sort beleeue was christian and Catholike Religion onelie founded in their mouthes and the faith of their Fathers and yet that poison they caried couertlie in their hearts and cunninglie in their bookes that your Maiesties deceiued and beguiled Subiectes by the verie sequence of their Romish faith and absolution were tied to obeie the Pope depriuing your highnesse of the sword and scepter bound to assist him or whom he should send to take the same by force of armes out of your Highnesse handes I knowe most noble Soueraigne they stoutly denied this and earnestly protested in open audience that they had no such meaning but for their partes did account your Maiestie their lawfull and true Princesse and taught all others so to doe hauing first obtained like wilie Friers a dispensation at Rome that to auoide the present daunger they and all other their obsequents might serue and honour your Highnesse for a time vntill the bull of Pius the fifth might safely bee executed and it may bee the common sort of such as they peruerted were not acquainted with these hainous mysteries but yet this was the full resolution of them all which I last reported as well appeared by their examinations and this verie conclusion stood in their written bookes as a ruled case that they must rather loose their liues than shrinke from this ground-woorke that the Pope maie depriue your Highnesse of your Scepter and Throne and the reason is added because saie they it is a pointe of fayeth and requireth confession of the mouth though death insue This daungerous if not diuelish Doctrine was not printed nor publyshed to the sight of all your Subiectes vntill the time that some of the chiefe procurers and kindlers of this flame for these and other interprises of lyke condition and qualitie were by the iust course of your Highnesse Lawes adiudged to death After whose execution the almes-men of Antichrist sawe no remedie but they must either leaue their brethren as rightlie condemned for hatching rebellion vnder a shewe of Religion and bee in daunger to dissolue the plotte which they had laide to bring this Lande to the Popes subiection the true ende and intent of their Seminaries and full repaiment of all his charges or else with all their cunning vndertake the quarrell of their vn-holie father and pleade the cause of their vnluckie brethren Hauing no better choice they resolued as venturers must that haue a desperate case in hand to trie what successe they might gette by facing and shifting in such sort as the simple shoulde hardlie discerne them To that end haue they put foorth A Defence of English Catholikes Wherein according to their wonted vaine manie thinges are statelie and stoutelie auouched but nothing attempted or intended to bee prooued saue onelie the Popes power to depriue Princes which with all furniture of witte and woordes they labour to inferre not shaming to saie that Subiectes bearing armes against their naturall Princes vpon the Popes warraunt do an holy iust and honorable seruice and that this hath beene the faith of this Land euer since it was conuerted vnto Christ. Against this canker consuming the verie soule and conscience where it taketh holde I thought it not amisse to oppose the Soueraigne salue of Gods eternall will and commaundement and to let it appeare to your Graces people that Princes are placed by God and so not to bee displaced by men and subiectes threatned damnation by Gods own mouth if they resist from which no Popes dispensation shall saue them and therefore the Iesuits Doctrine in that point to be as wicked as their proofes bee weake hauing neither Scripture Councell nor Father for a thousande yeares that euer allowed mentioned or imagined anie power in Popes to depose Princes I haue thereto added a confirmation of the right which the Lawes of this Lande do attribute vnto your Highnesse and an explication of that othe which the Iesuits so much stumble at laieng my foundation in the sacred testimonies of the holie Ghost and persuing the same in the continual practise of Christs church for eight hundreth yeares vpward so long as there was either godlines in Bishops to regard their duties or corage in Princes to call for their owne and iustifieng euerie part thereof seuerallie and sufficientlie by diuine and humane both authorities and examples The Iesuites absurdities and allegations pretended against your Maiesties interest to beare the sword ouer all persons and in all causes without dependence or reference to anie earthlie tribunal or superior I haue likewise particularlie refelled and proued them both impertinent to their purpose and nothing obstant to that Supreme power of the sword which is claimed and vsed by your Maiestie but their obiections to be meere cauils mistakings of a matter which they do not or will not vnderstand as also their flieng this Realme and running to Rome I haue examined and not onelie found them repugnant to the ancient lawes of the Conqueror other your noble progenitors but also shewed great difference betweene the Catholike Fathers writing and sometimes going to the Bishop of Rome as to their fellow seruaunt and a dutifull subiect to the same state that they were our English Italians giuing him an Antichristian power to turne wind the whole church at his will and dispose kingdomes and displace Princes if they be not obedient and suppliant to his Censures Lastlie because the temper and colour of all their wicked sayings doings is the catholik faith the catholik seruice I haue entered a speciall discourse that the reformation of the church in this Realme made by your Maiesties power lawes is wholie truelie catholike such as the Scriptures do preciselie command the ancient fathers expresly witnes was the faith and vse of Christes church for manie hundrethes These things most religious worthie Princesse I haue done sincerely that the doctrine precepts of our Sauior might take place before the deuises pleasures of mē familiarly that the meaner sort of your subiects which are most obnoxious
for the redemption of man and the bloodshedding of our Sauiour expressed and resembled in that mysterie More than this no Catholique father euer taught and lesse than this our Churches doe not receiue Touching the Sacramentes I meane baptisme and the Supper if Christ and his Apostles did minister them Catholiquely wee can not fayle but doe the same wee swarue not a iote from their example the Scriptures will not lye let them bee iudges Shewe but one worde element or action added omitted or altered in either of them and we graunt your Apologie to be sound and good which otherwise we see to be replenished with many spitefull slaunders and shamefull errors But if the Catholicisme which you stand on were not knowen to them as in truth it was not the lacke of some ceremonies which be matters indifferent and set your abuses aside may be kept or left without hurting the faith or offending the godly can bee no iust cause for you to flie the realme and forsake the Prince The diuine seruice here established you may lewdly despise you shall hardly disproue the Psalmes that we sing be Dauids the bookes that we read be Canonical the praiers that we make be consonant to the rule proportiō of faith true godlines quitting them for our owne parts to the present possessioners incombents or to whom soeuer God shall permit Theo. You fled the Realme not forced to that extremitie but moued with a priuate dislike of the Princes regiment and therefore if the lack of your Countrey were not eased by many supplies both abroade as you graunt and from home as we know you may thanke your selues you were the first autors and wilfull contriuers of your owne woe You want no commodities nor curtesies in the common wealthes where you liue yet such is your Nicenes that you can not beare the ordinarie difficulties and accidents that follow strangers in euery place without sorowfull bewayling before God and often lamenting one to another the hard state of your long banishment Your dayly praiers haue their dayly purposes your continuall sighes and teares shewe the secret griefe you conceiue to see your counsels disclosed and attempts defeated which rather enforceth the sharpnes of your humor than the goodnes of your cause That you be willing to come home wee well beleeue howbeit that proueth not your departure lawful nor your returne peaceable The Wolfe would fayne be with the sheepe and the Lion is glad to bee with his pray Yet this is no token of their friendly meaning To preuent all suspicion of euill you deepely protest that you voyd your thoughts of honour and preferment relinquishing those to the present incumbents and addressing your selues to serue the poore soules to their saluation The strife betwixt vs is not for Bishoprickes and benefices but for Christs glorie and the Princes safetie whom God hath appointed both your and our Soueraigne and therefore your renouncing of titles and dignities before hand sauoreth of your accustomed vanitie and nothing concerneth the matter Saluation of soules is well pretended but ill perfourmed Your bores of oyle your glasses of holy water your fardles of other consecrated trifles wherewith you haue fraighted this Realme are slender helpes to saue soules nay rather your reconciling of those that receiue you to the Sea of Rome your trayning them to neglect of the scriptures and reuerence of your fansies your leading them from the Church of God and communion of their brethren to your barbarous and Idolatrous Masse your withdrawing them from their obedience to the Princes wholesome and Christian lawes is their vtter destruction and your assured condemnation Yet to proue your selues louing wormes you wish to be admitted to your Countrie in what state soeuer were it in penance and pouertie neuer so great euen so the snake being frozen lyeth quiet and still waxing once warme hee vseth not onely to stirre but also to sting Your sugred words can not sweeten the bitternes of your actions God hath blessed her Maiestie with greater respect of religion than to suffer the veneme of your doctrine to poyson her people and with better intelligence of your drifts than to harbour a rowte of Iesuites the very forerunners and factours of her open and professed enemie The Pageants of your holy father and founder were so lately tried and are so iustly feared that her highnes neither with her safetie may neither of her wisedome will permit you to beginne a newe reuell Her graue and worthie Counsell perceiue that a small leake sinketh a strong vessell and the least sparke kindleth a mightie flame Phi. Call you this answering You say what you list without warrant or witnes Theo. And what did you when you sent vs ouer whole chapters yea the most part of your Apologie bringing no better nor other reason nor proofe than your simple worde which is God knoweth a single proofe Phi. You will hardly speake well of our doings or writings Theo. Let your booke be seene If I lye reproue me Your first chapter hath in all fiue authorities and not one of them toucheth any matter in question The three first shewe that certaine Arrian Emperours suffered true and false religion in one Citie a proper president for Christian Princes the two next proue that godly men assembled in priuate houses when they coulde not in Churches for feare of persecution Wee neuer sayde otherwise Your seconde chapter hath fiue other places besides the first booke of Bede which wee doubt not of Three declaring that the Romanes twelue hundred yeres agoe were deuout and charitable which is nothing to our dayes or your purpose the other two you safely enforce to helpe the Sea of Rome and yet were they so ment they conclude but coldly for you Your third chapter alleageth S. Austen twise mary not against vs but at rouers to make vp your reckoning and once S. Hierom warning a gentlewoman of Rome to preferre the fayth of Innocentius and Anastasius which at that time he knew to be sound and syncere before certaine poysoned plants then freshly springing in Rome This aduise wee refuse not and at this day we seeke to recall your holy father from his newe found heresie and tyrannie to the right imitation of their fayth and humilitie that were godly learned and auncient bishops in that Sea before him On your fourth and fift chapters which are the chiefe strength and force of your Apologie you bestowe some more cost but not much or at lest not much to the matter in question Your fourth chapter euen at first entrance you fill the page with eleuen texts of scriptures declaring what promises assistance from God the true preachers and ministers of his word haue then alleage you S. Paul prohibiting women to teach or speake in the Church and S. Peter calling Princes humane creatures these be things that wee neither doubt of nor striue for This done you draw neere the
foundation of the Church and the rest of the Apostles excluded but that which is here spoken to him they make common to all or as much elsewhere to be giuen to all Origen If onely vpon Peter thou thinkest the whole Church to be built what wilt thou say to Iohn and euery of the Apostles shall we dare say that against Peter onely the gates of hell shall not preuaile and against the rest of the Apostles they shall and not rather in them all and euerie one of them that to be true which is saide the gates of hell shall not preuaile and that also vpon this rocke will I build my Church For if this speech to thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdom of heauen be common to all why then should not all that which goeth before and followeth after as spoken to Peter be common to them all Hierom himselfe whose authoritie you pretend as he placeth Peter in the foundation of the Church so doth he the rest of the Apostles likewise Thou wilt say the Church is built on Peter notwithstanding the selfe same in another place is done vpon all the Apostles and they all receiue the keyes of the kingdom of heauen and the stedfastnesse of the Church is equally setled vpon them This sense doth somewhat agree with that place of S. Paul were he saith Ye bee built vpon the foundation not of Peter alone but of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ being the head corner stone And in that respect Paul saith of Iames Peter Iohn iointly they that seemed to be the pillours gaue me their right handes of fellowship Both these constructions we can admit though we prefer the first as most religious cunning nearest the true meaning of our Sauiour but you wrest the wordes of S. Hierom quite against him selfe all the rest of the learned Catholike fathers It is one thing to say the church is built on Peter which Origē Hierom others affirme in the sense that I told you before an other thing to say the Church is built on Peters chaire at Rome which no Father euer said or thought And therefore if we shoulde graunt that S. Hierom in these wordes spake of Peter what are you the better This is no proofe that Rome is the Rocke on which the Church is built but onely that Peter is a Rocke laide in the foundation of the Church where also the rest of the Prophetes and Apostles are Phi. The place doth mention the chaire of Peter which is Rome Theo. The wordes stande so that they may respect either Peter himselfe or his chayre but the likenesse of the names Petrus and Petra both for sound for sense the alluding to that which Christ spake to Peter in the Gospell long before hee knewe Rome the generall consent of the Fathers expounding the Rocke to be taken either for Christ or for Peter and neuer for Rome import that these words in S. Hierom haue their relation to Peters person and not to his chaire This exposition the place which you brought confirmeth Petrus super quem Dominus fundanit Ecclesiam Peter on whom that is on whose person not on whose successors at Rome the Lord built his Church Phi. The rest of S. Hieroms wordes can not be referred to Peters person as namely these that next insue Without this house whosoeuer shall eate the Paschall Lambe is prophane And why shoulde the former more than these Theo. Peruse the words as they lie and you shall finde your owne error Vpon that rocke I know the Church is built The Church not of Rome only but of Christ generally Then followeth extra hanc domùm without this house What house but the church which he said before was built on the rock And out of this house meaning thereby not the particular Church of Rome but the Catholike church of Christ whosoeuer eateth the Passouer is indeed as Hierom saith aprophane person This is farre wide from the mark which you shoote at Phi. S. Augustine I trust shooteth streight when he applieth the wordes of Christ in the 16. of Matthew to the chaire of Peter Theo. That were maruaile if he which by no meanes would allow Peter him selfe to be the foundation of the Church be now content to yeelde that honor to the Bishop of Rome Phi. He doth so These be his wordes Numerate sacerdotes vel ab ipsa Petri sede in ordine illo Patrum quis cui successit videte Ipsa est Petra quam non vincant superbae inferorum portae Number the Priestes euen from Peters seate and see who succeded one an other in that rew of Fathers that is the Rocke which the proude gates of hell do not conquere Theo. This place proueth nothing vnlesse you bee suffered to referre the words Ipsa est Petra that is the rocke whither you list You can not refer them but either to the succession of Priests from Peter or else to Peters seate which is all one with Peters chaire Theo. Why not to Peter himself Phi. That were farre fet Theo. The wordes stand indifferent for both as S. Hieroms did and not onely the same reasons I made there serue here but also the proposition hath a manifest reference to Peters person He saith not number the Priests in Peters seat but number them vel ab ipsa Petri sede euen from the very seat of Peter that is from the time that Peter sate He is the Rock against which the proud gates of hell do not preuaile Phi. You seeme to reade Ipse est Petra He is the Rocke but the wordes are Ipsa est Petra that is the Rocke Theo. There are greater corruptions crept into S. Austens works by the negligence of Scribes than of a for e Neither did I translate the words but giue you the right meaning of them and yet ipsa est Petra in S. Austen may be referred to Peter him selfe as wel as super hanc Petram in the Gospell expounded for Peter which you all vphold But graunt which is more than euer you shall iustly conuince that Peters chaire is thereby ment Saint Austen doth not say that is the rocke on which the Church is built but that is the Rocke which the gates of hell do not conquere not promising that Rome still should but witnessing that Rome then did withstand the gates of hell by keeping the faith vndefiled which Peter deliuered Phi. What S. Austen lacketh S. Cyprian supplyeth Qui Cathedram Petri super quam edificata est Ecclesia deserit in Ecclesia se esse confidit He that forsaketh the chayre of Peter on which the Church is built doth he hope himselfe to be in the Church I trust these wordes be plaine enough Theo. The wordes as you set them bee plaine enough but where saith Cyprian so Phi. In his booke De vnitate Ecclesiae Catholicae you call it corruptly De simplicitate Praelatorum Theo.
Call the booke howe you will so the wordes bee there Phi. There shall you finde them Theo. There we finde them not Phi. What Prints haue you Theo. Prints enow Alopecius at Cullen Heruagius at Basill Langelier at Paris Crinitus at Antuerp Gryphius at Lions Manutius at Rome In all these and diuerse others we finde no such wordis Phi. In deede I confesse the wordes were wanting till Pamelius a Canon of Bruges found them in an old written copie lying in the Abbay of Cambron In his edition printed at Antuerp by Stelsius you shall finde them Theo. And thinke you Philander that all other copies both printed written lacking those words Pamelius did wel to put them to Cyprians text Phi. He laid them down as he found them written in the copie which is kept at Cambron Theo. As though the blinde Abbay of Cambron were of greater credit authoritie than all the Churches and Libraries of Christendom Phi. I say not so Theo. What else do you say when you cite these words for Cyprians which no copie printed nor written hath besides that of Cambron There haue trauelled in the correcting setting forth of Cyprian at sundry times men of your owne religion not a few namely Remboltus Canchius Costerius Erasmus Grauius Manutius Morelius euerie one of these for their seuerall editions searching farre and neere and vsing the best written copies that coulde be gotten or heard of and they all agree that no such wordes are founde in their copies yea Pamelius himselfe hauing as hee confesseth the sight and helpe of eight other written copies from diuerse places founde these wordes in none but in Cambron copie Since then either Cambron copie must be corrupt or an infinite number of other written copies that haue beene viewed by these learned men of your owne side and are yet extant in diuerse Abbayes and Churches obedient to the See of Rome at this houre say your selfe in reason whether we ought to beleeue your Cambron copie before all the copies that haue beene perused and are yet remaining in Europe Phi. That were much but how could this copie be corrupted Theo. What a question that is How could whole books be thrust into the workes of Cyprian Ambrose Hierom Austen others ly forged vnder their names not in one or two but in the most part of the Abbayes and auncient libraries of the West Church Your Monkes and Friers that were so skilfull in committing these manifold forgeries were not to seeke how to corrupt your Cambron copie Phi. It helpeth Pamelius very much that Gratian 400. yeares agoe cited the very same words as out of Cyprian Theo. Gratian might be deceiued by the same or some other false copie as wel as Pamelius of al men Gratian him selfe is most corrupt in alleadging the Fathers but what if Gratian be forged as wel as Cyprian Phi. Nay then al shal be forged that liketh not you Theo. They that ventered on Cyprian others would neuer sticke to frame Gratian to their purpose Phi. This is but your suspicion Theo. Yes I haue some reason to chalenge this in your Canon law for a corruption The very same place of Cyprian is elsewhere alleaged at large by Gratian in his decrees where we find no such words and therefore this or that must needes be forged Againe â—ohannes Seneca who liued seuen skore yeares after Gratian ouer-skippâ—â—h this place without any glosse as not finding it in the decrees extant in his time Phi. You be deceaued there is a glosse vppon this place Theo. I am not deceaued there is none Looke to the lesser volume of your decrees printed by Iohn Petit and Thielman Keruer and you shall see there is none And he that in the bigger volume of your decrees thinking to preuent this obiection set a certaine glosse to the chapter Qui Cathedram shewed himselfe not to be his crafts maister for he grossely mistaking the wordes that follow Episcopi verò which are Gratians thinking them to be Cyprians put the summe of Gratians words as a glosse to Cyprians text which is nothing neare and so betrayeth him a willing but no skilful forgerer Last of all the relatiue that you most esteeme and I most withstand super quam on which chayre the Church is built is contrarie to the plaine wordes of Cyprian not many lines before cited by Gratian and confessed by Pamelius to be fouÌ„d in his Cambron copie super vnum illum edificat Ecclesiam vppon him alone meaning Peter Christ buildeth his Church So that either you must mend your booke and reade super queÌ„ on whom the Church is built or els make Cyprian so forgetful that with in eight lines he contradicteth himselfe refuteth his former saying Phi. May not the Church bee built on him and his successours Theo. If Peter alone were chosen by Christ to be the foundatioÌ„ that is the first stone that should be layed in the building of his Church how can that possibly bee extended to his successors Can you remoue Peter froÌ„ the foundation where Christ laied him not do him wrong Or can you change the foundation and not shake the building of the Church Phi. You tooke the foundation I perceaue for the first beginning Theo. And what call you that which is first layed in the buylding of an house but the foundation Phi. Did Cyprian meane so Theo. Cyprian expresseth his meanyng in this sort Though Christ after his resurrection gaue all his Apostles equall power yet for the declaratioÌ„ of vnitie with his owne voyce and autoritie did he dispose the originall of that vnitie to beginne in one which was Peter The rest of the Apostles were the selfesame that Peter was endewed with like fellowship of honor and power but the first beginning came from oâ—e that is Christ chose Peter alone to be the original or first beginning of his Church Now this is proper to Peters person to be the first Stone that was laied in â—he foundation of the Church and can not be deriued from him to his successour Phi. That priuilege died with Peter vnlesse it remayne in some successour Theo. Not so Peter as well after death as during life keepeth the same place which Christ gaue him in the building of his Church vnlesse you meane to exclude the Saincts cleane froÌ„ the Church of Christ. Phi. They be of the Church triumphant not militant Theo. And those be not two but one Church Ierusalem which is aboue is the mother of vs all Ye be now sayth Paul no more strangers and forreners but Citizens with the Saincts and of the howshold of God For you be come to the Citie of the Liuing God the heauenly Ierusalem and to the Church of the first borne written in heauen and to the spirits of iust men now made perfect Where you see the Saincts in heaueÌ„ be not remoued from the Church of God but we
Rome complayning what the Arians had done at Alexandria requesting at his hands the true copie of those seuentie Canons neuer remembring howe fond and foolish a fable this would be when it shoulde come to skanning and howe substantially the Bishoppes of Aphrica went to worke when this title was first pretended Phi. Doth not Iulius in his Epistle to the East Bishops repeate 27. Canons of the Nicene Councell more than our copies haue sixe of them clearer for the Popes authoritie than that which Sozimus alleadged Theo. You come in with your decretals as if they were some worthie monuments But Sirs the more you forge the lesse you gaine All the decretals you haue will not counteruaile the reason which S. Austen and the rest make to Bonifacius Quis dubitet exemplaria esse verissima Nicenae Synodi quae de tam diuersis locis de nobilibus Graecis ecclesijs adlata comparata concordat Who can doubt those copies of the Nicene Councell to be most true which being brought from so many places from the noble Churches of Greece agree when they bee compared The letters of Marcus and Iulius framed in corners and founde at Rome light of credite and full of lies are not able to frustrate the great paynes and good meanes which the Bishops of Africa bestowed and vsed in searching the trueth They had their owne bookes which were many both in Greeke and Latine they had the very copie which Coecilianus Bishoppe of Carthage that was present and subscribed in the Councell of Nice brought with him from thence they had a faithful transcript from the Churches of Alexandria and Constantinople out of their originall recordes These three copies so many thousande miles asunder and euery one of them Authentike when they were brought together and compared did word for worde agree with themselues and with the bookes that were in euery mans priuate keeping If that be not enough Ruffinus that liued in Italie and wrate in the dayes of Theodosius the elder before this matter came in question published in his Latine historie to the eyes of all men the very same number and order of the Nicene Canons which the Councell of Africa followed Yea the Bishops of Rome themselues Bonifacius and Coelestinus to whom this answere was made neuer replied neuer vrged nor offered any mo Canons than these twentie which were sent from other places though the cause required and the time serued to bring forth their seuentie Canons as well for Sozimus discharge as their owne interest authoritie which was then not only doubted but also resisted Besides this your assertion of seuentie Canons what a peeuish and senselesse fable it is Howe coulde all the true copies of the Nicene Councell throughout the worlde bee consumed and destroyed within three score yeeres and no man mislike it no man perceiue it no man report it Or howe coulde fiftie Canons bee suddenly lost and euery where twentie left in faire and Authentike writings Why would the Arians for they must bee the doers of it wreake their malice on those Canons that did not touch them and spare the Nicene creede Epistle written to the Church of Alexandria which directly condemned their impietie Nay why did the church of Rome suffer those 50. Canons to perish that made most for her prerogatiue and kept these twentie safe which rather restraine than enlarge her authoritie Phi. Trust you not Athanasius that was present when the Canons were made Theo. I trust him well but I trust not your shuffeling in what you list vnder his name Your forged Athanasius is soone disproued For if Iulius were Bishop of Rome when the Councell of Nice was called as Sozomene Bede doe witnes how could Athanasius write to Marcus next before Iulius that the Canons of the Councell of Nice were burnt Were the Canons burnt trow you before they were made Againe though al men did not allow the decrees of the Nicene Councel yet whiles Constantine liued no man saith Sozomene durst openly and plainely refuse them much lesse burne them in a furious publike tumult And what if Athanasius were not then néere Aegypt when Marcus wrate this solemne Epistle will you neuer bee weaned from these foolish forgeries Marcus letter beareth date decimo calendas Nouembris Nepotiano Secundo Consulibus the 21. of October Nepotianus and Secundus being Consuls which was the later end of the 30. yere of Constantines raigne Nowe all that yeere was Athanasius kept from Aegypt at the Councel of Tyrus without returning home fled to Constantinople where he stayed till hee was banished into Fraunce Neither was there any such persecution in Aegypt that yere or any time before vnder Constantine as this Epistle doth specifie but a great while after vnder Constantius when Marcus was dead and rotten And to conclude if the copie which Athanasius brought with him from Nice were burnt by the Arians in his time as his letter to Marcus importeth howe coulde Cyril that came long after him find an Authentike copie in the same Church as his words inferre to the Councell of Africa Phi. Marcus Epistle might be suspected if Iulius letter did not affirme the same Theo. Iulius Epistle is a right paterne of your Romish recordes For there besides impudent forgerie you shall find wilfull periurie Phi. Why so Theo. Your counterfayte Iulius is not content to forge Canons but hee byndeth thē also with an othe Verū me dixisse testis est diuinitas god is my witnes that I speake trueth Phi. You should the rather beleeue him Theo. Beleeue him As though the right and true rescript of Iulius to the Synode of Antioche were not set downe by Athanasius himselfe in his seconde Apologie to the manifest detection of your shamelesse forging and forswearing Compare that letter with this and you will blush to see the Church of Rome so fowlely ouershot And yet were there no such thing extant this blind decretall doth conuict it selfe For it beareth date the first of Nouember Felicianus and his fellow being Consuls which was the very yere that Constantine the great died Now the councel of Antioch y◠deposed Athanasius to the which Iulius wrate was gathered by Constantius the fift yere after Constantines death and so this answere to the councel of Antioch was written fiue yeres before there was any such councel assembled Again Iulius himself sayth in his Epistle to those of Antioch that Athanasius stayed at Rome with him one whole yere sixe moneths expecting their presēce after they were cited by his first letters to shew the reason of their proceeding against Athanasius these two decretals of Iulius which you bring vs beare date iust 31. dayes asunder in which tune you can not go from Rome to Antioch returne with an answere except you get you wings And so notwithstanding your shifts deuises to cloke
endure for Simonie non residence wrongfull excommunication playing at tables resorting to spectacles ordering any Clerke without diligent examination or contrarie to the Princes ecclesiastical lawes in which cases Iustinian commandeth them to bee SVSPENDED EXCOMMVNICATED DEPOSED as the fault meriteth and his edict appointeth It was then no newes for a Prince to say Diuers complaints haue beene brought vs against Clerks Monks and many Bishops that some leade not their liues according to the sacred Canons others can not the publike praiers which should be sayd at the sacred oblation and baptisme we therefore recounting the iudgement of God with our selues HAVE COMMAVNDED THAT IN EVERY MATTER THVS DETECTED LAWFVLL INQVISITION AND CORRECTION PROCEEDE comprising in this edict those things that were before skattered in sundry constitutions touching the most religious Bishops Clerkes and Monkes with such punishments added as wee rhought expedient And againe OVR CHIEFEST CARE IS FOR THE TRVETH OF GODS DOCTRINE AND SEEMELY CONVERSATION OF THE CLERGIE THE THINGS THEN WHICH WE HAVE DECREED AND MAKE FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE SACRED ORDER AND STATE CONSONANT TO THE TENOR OF HOLY RVLES LET THE MOST GODLY PATRIARKES OF EVERY DIOCESSE THE METROPOLITANES AND RIGHT REVEREND BISHOPS AND CLERKES KEEPE FOR EVER HEREAFTER INVYOLABLE THE BREAKER OF THEM SHALBE SVRE TO BE SEQVESTRED VTTERLY FROM GOD AND EXCLVDED FROM HIS PRIESTLY FVNCTION Licencing all men of what sort or calling soeuer they bee that perceiue the least point of these our Lawes transgressed to denounce and infourme the same to our highnes that wee which following the sacred rules and Apostolike tradition haue commaunded these thinges may reuenge such offendours as they well deserue Farther hee sayth Our purpose in this present Lawe is next after those matters which wee haue disposed of the most holy Bishoppes and reuerend Clerkes to set a good order in monasticall discipline for so much as there is no kinde of thing exempted from the Princes inquisition which hath receiued from God a common regiment and soueraintie ouer all men and these things which concerne God must bee preserued from corruption by the sacred Prelates and ciuill Magistrates but most of all by our Maiestie which vse not to neglect any diuine causes but labour by all meanes that our common wealth by the fauour of the great God and our Sauiour Christ towardes men may reape the fruite of that purenes and integritie which Clerkes Monkes and Bishoppes from the highest to the lowest shall shewe foorth in keeping the sacred Canons our lawes prouided in that behalfe which constitutions by this our decree wee strengthen a fresh and ratifie Put on your spectakles and see whether Iustinian do not take vppon him to gouerne the doctrine and discipline of the Church the conuersation of Clerkes Monkes and Priestes and to commaunde Prelates and Patriarkes in the celebration of sacraments conuocation of Synodes election and confirmation of Bishoppes ordering of Clerkes and such like functions except our eyesight fayle vs wholy spirituall and in the iudgement of your neerest friends acknowledged for causes ecclesiasticall I will omitte what Iustinian enacted touching mariages diuorces legacies funerals incests adulteries and such like then pertinent to the Princes power and sworde nowe claymed by your holy father for a surplussage to causes ecclesiasticall and with that seely shift conueyed out of Princes handes who first vppon fauour and opinion of holynes and wisedome in Bishoppes gaue them leaue to meddle with such matters I will omitte I say that and descende to the Lawes of Charles the great Emperour of the West partes eight hundreth yeeres after Christ which Ansegisus gathered together within thirteene yeeres of the death of the sayde Charles In his preface of those Lawes thus speaketh that wise Prince Considering the passing goodnes of Christ our Lord towardes vs and our people and howe needefull it is not onely to giue thankes to God incessantly with heart and mouth but also with good endeuours continually to set foorth his honour and praise c. Therefore O you Pastours of Christes Church and teachers of his flocke Haue wee directed Commissioners vnto you that shall ioyne with you to redresse those thinges which neede reformation in our name and by vertue of our authoritie and to this ende wee haue here annexed certaine briefe chapters of Canonicall or ecclesiasticall institutions such as we thought meetest Let no man iudge this our admonition to godlines to bee presumptuous Whereby wee seeke to correct thinges amisse to cutte off superfluities and leade men to that which is right but rather receiue it with a charitable mynde For in the booke of kinges wee reade what paynes godly Iosias tooke to bring the kingdome giuen him of GOD to the true worship of the same God by visiting correcting and instructing them not that wee compare our selues with his sanctitie but that we should alwayes imitate such examples of the godly We see the reason why these Lawes were published and commissioners sent from the Prince to put them in execution now let vs examine the Lawes themselues and marke what causes they chiefely concerne Peruse the booke you will on my woord expect no farther proofe that Princes had then to doe with persons and causes ecclesiasticall If your leasure serue you not by these fewe which I will report you may coniecture the rest The first seuen and fiftie Canons are borowed out of such generall and prouinciall Councels as Charles best liked for example That no man excommunicated in one place shall bee taken to the communion in an other place That when any Clerk is ordered his faith and life bee first exactly tried That no strange Clerke bee receaued or ordered without letters of commendation and licence from his owne Bishop That no seruant bee made Clerk or Moncke without his masters consent That no man bee made Priest vnder thirtie yeares of age neither then at randon but appointed and fastned to a certaine cure That no Bishop meddle with giuing orders in an other mans diocesse That no Bishop veele any widoes at all nor maydens vnder the age of twentie and fiue That the Bishop of each Prouince and the Metropolitane meete yerely twise in Councel for causes of the Church That Priests when they say their masses shall also communicate That only the bookes canonical shall bee read in the Church That the false names of Martyres and vncertaine memories of Sainctes bee not obserued That Sunday bee kept from euening on Saturday till euening the next day with other such constitutions prescribing a direct order to Bishoppes Priestes and Monkes for ecclesiasticall causes Phi. These bee Canons of former Councels Theo. True but selected and deliuered by Charles to those visitours which he sent with his authoritie to refourme the Church and the rest that followe to the number of an hundred and fiue chapters did Charles frame by conference with learned and godly men at
captiues and pray to the Lord for it for in the peace thereof shall you haue peace Which Tertullian witnesseth the christians did in all their publike assemblies Wee call vpon the euerlasting God for the health of our Emperours alwaies beseeching God to sende euerie of them long life happie raigne trustie seruantes valiant souldiers faithfull counsellours orderly subiectes and the worlde quiet and what soeuer people or Prince can wish for Examine your selues how farre you be from the innocencie and integritie of Christes church They wished all happinesse to heathen Princes and praied for the securitie of their liues and prosperitie of their states You curse and ban christian Princes and lay plots not onely for enimies to inuade them but for subiectes to shake off the yoke and shorten the daies of their naturall and lawfull Princes Phi. The church of Christ praied for her Princes if they were Pagans but not if they were heretikes Theo. What was Constantius a Pagan or an heretike Phi. An Arian Theo. For him the church praied Phi. For his conuersion Theo. For his health raigne and welfare Phi. Heretikes perhaps like himselfe did Theo. I say Catholiks Phi. It was then at the beginning of his raigne before his impietie was notorious Theo. About you fetch and all will not serue This testimonie that the church praied for Constantius though an heretike was giuen by a Councell of catholike Bishoppes in the 21. yeare of his raigne not long before his death Phi. Where finde you that the church praied for him Theo. Reade the two letters which the West Bishops sent from Ariminum to Constantius and see whether it be not cleare In the first thus they say Wee beseech you that you cause vs not to staie from our cures but that the bishops togither with the people seruing God in peace may humblie praie for your health kingdome and safetie in which the diuine Maiestie long preserue you The conclusion of their second letter is this For this cause we beseech your clemencie the second time most religious Lord and Emperour that you command vs to depart to our churches if it so please your godlines before the sharpnes of winter come that wee may make our accustomed praiers togither with the people to the almightie God and our Lord and Sauiour Christ for your imperie as we haue alwaies purposed and now wish to continue The writings of Hilarie and Athanasius to this verie Prince confirme the same We beseech your clemencie to permit saith Hilarie that the people may haue such teachers as they like such as they thinke well of such as they choose let them solemnize the diuine mysteries and make prayers for your safetie prosperitie Athanasius by his prayers made for this prince in the open assemblie of the people cleareth himselfe from hauing intelligence with Magnentius the murtherer of his brother With what eyes could I behold that bloodie homicide or howe coulde I but cal to minde your brothers face whiles I made my praiers for your health Howe coulde I indure to thinke euill of your brother or sende letters to his enimie and not rather pray and beseech God for your welfare which verily I did A witnesse hereof is first the Lord which hath giuen you the whole Empire that was left by your Fathers There can witnesse also with me Felicissimus the captaine of Aegypt Asternis the Earle Paladius the master of your Palace and others My wordes were Let vs pray for the welfare of the most religious Emperour Constantius and presently the whole people with one voice cryed O Christ bee fauorable to Constantius and this crie they continued a long time And appealing to the Emperours owne conscience knowledge You haue good triall that all the christians make their prayers and supplications to God that you may liue in safetie and continuallie raigne in peace And God graunt you O most gracious Prince to liue many yeares Heare you deaffe of yeares and dul of hartes the church of Christ praied for hereticall Princes in the middest of their impietie and tyrannie And when it was but obiected to Athanasius that hee and others wrote letters to one that rebelled and tooke armes against the Prince hee made answere Vincat quaeso apud the veritas ne relinquas suspicionem contra vniuer sam Ecclesiam quasi talia aut cogitentur aut scribantur à christianis potissimum Episcopis I beseech you let truth take place with you and leaue not this suspition vpon the catholike church as though any such things were written or thought on by Christians and especially by Bishoppes Howe farre then were these men from your humours which professe to depose Princes and not onlie licence Subiectes to rebell but incite them to kill their Soueraignes as you did lately Parry with pardon praise and recompence both here and in heauen Phi. They might do this in the beginning of his raigne before hee discouered his heresie Theo. These bee senslesse shiftes Hilarius wrote his booke after the Councell kept at Millan by Constantius and Athanasius his after Liberius was banished For those pointes be mentioned in their writinges and fell out the one immediatly before the other after the Councel of Ariminum And therefore the rathest of these defences came seuenteene yeares after the beginning of Constantius raigne and in the hoatest of his tyrannicall and hereticall persecution as the bookes themselues declare And yet they not onely indured but also obeyed him as their liege Lord and detested all resistance in deede and thought as vnlawfull for Christians and chiefly for Bishops Phi. But when in processe of time some Princes through Gods iust iudgement the peoples sinne were fallen to such contempt of religion as it lightly happeneth by heresie and Apostasie that excommunication being onely but a spirituall penaltie or other ordinarie Ecclesiasticall discipline would not serue then as well Bishops as other godlie persons their owne Subiectes did craue aide and armes of other Princes for their chastisement as most holie and auncient Popes euen in the olde dayes when the Protestants confesse them to haue beene godlie Bishoppes did incite catholike kinges to the same that those whom the spirituall rodde coulde not fruitfullie chastise they might by externe or temporall force bring them to order and repentaunce or at least defende their innocent Catholike Subiectes from vniust vexation Theo. You begin nowe to shewe your selues in your right kinde From the church you leape to the fielde meaning belike as Iulius the seconde did that since Peters keyes wil not pleasure you Paules sworde shall better steede you The side of your booke seemeth to direct vs when and vppon what occasion spirituall Pastours beganne to vse the temporall sword but the text it selfe runneth quite awrie Wee finde there neither time prefixed nor spirituall Pastour named that euer vsed the temporall sworde Are rebellions such trifles with you that you thinke to proue them with
hee did vppon conference had with the best learned that were in his age When it was knowen in Germanie what Pope Iohn had decreed Ludouike sayth Auentine consulted the best Lawyers and skilfullest diuines that were in Italie Germanie or France especially the doctors of both lawes and diuines of Bononia and Paris They all wrote back that the actes and decrees of pope Iohn against the Emperour were repugnant to Christian simplicitie and the heauenly Scriptures The men of note and such as wrote against the Pope for this inordinate presumption were Marsilius Patauinus Iohannes Gandauus Andreas Laudensis Vlricus Haugenor Luitpoldus de Babenburg Dante 's Alligerius Occam Bergomensis Michael Caesenas Phi. What Recken you these The most of them were condemned by the Church of Rome for heretiks Theo. They were condemned by the Pope for speaking truth Marsilius booke is extant intituled The defender of peace What error can you charge him with but this that hee wrote against the insufferable pride and ambition of the Pope Dants error for the which he was condemned your friendes affirme to be this for that in his booke of the Monarchie he saide The Romane Empire had no dependance of the Pope in temporall things but only of God Occam the Minorite pursued that argument so farre that he brought the Popes power and his Prelates touching their tēporal dominiō to nothing These were their errors for y◠which the Church of Rome otherwise called the Pope and his Cardinals condemned these learned and innocent men With as good reason you might haue condemned christ and his Apostles for the same causes S. Paul auoucheth the one There is no power but of God and Christ himselfe commaunded the other Kings of nations beare temporall rule You shall not doe so Phi. They held other errors Theo. Euen such an other For this was against the state and pride of Prelates and that touched their cofers and treasures which indeede were their Goddes The Poore Franciscanes beganne to dispute that it was a signe of more perfection and a neerer resemblance to the life which Christ and his Apostles ledde on earth for clergie men to renounce the world and possesse nothing of their owne rather than to nestle themselues i◠the sweetest and richest seates of christendome and t◠heape vp mammon and wealth in such abundance that they were able not only to beard Princes in their Palaces but also shoulder them in the field The ground of their opinion they tooke from your canon Law and your holy father himselfe in erecting the Rule of Frier Frauncis could confesse as much mary when the Emperour in hatred of the Popes hauftines and greedines cast some fauour to the Franciscanes the Pope to match the Prince gaue forth an edict and made it heresie to say that Christ his Apostles possessed nothing in this world which because the Friers impugned in their schooles and sermons the Pope cōdemned them and all their aiders and abetters whereof Lodouike was one for heretikes This is that other heresie for the which Micheal Cesenas Occam and other Franciscanes and Lodouike the Emperour as a Patrone of theirs were impeached which Platina thinketh was scant aduisedly doone by the Pope and his counsellers Pope Iohn saith he set foorth a Decree wherein he declared them to be rebels to the Church of Rome heretikes which affirmed that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne This decree doth scant accord with the sacred Scripture which testifieth in many places that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne Thus your holy father to spite the prince and to reuenge such as opened their mouthes at his sumpteousnes and furiousnes made it heresie to commend humilitie and pouertie Philand That Christ and his Disciples did possesse nothing neither in priuate nor in common this was their error and not as you report it Theo. In deede it is worth the noting howe finely your Holie Father did circumuent them For where they ment that Christ and his Apostles lefte the worlde to follow their vocation and woulde after possesse nothing superfluous neither in priuate nor common but helde themselues satisfied with apparell and foode such as the goodnesse of GOD by the almes of other or by their owne industrie not slacking their function did prouide for them the Bishope of Rome hauing alreadie gotten a good part of the Empire into his hands and daily deuising newe quarels to get more and besides oppressing al Christian Realmes with intollerable taxes and paiments for the maintaining of his warres and furnishing of his other expences which were both needeles and excessiue and knowing by this vrging of christs and his Apostles pouertie which the friers began euerie where to publish how vnlike he should appeare to S. Peter whose successour hee would seem to be peruerted the wordes and sense of the poore friers as if they had taught that the diete and raiment which Christ and his Apostles vsed had not beene their own but wrongfully taken and vniustly withheld from others that were the right owners and with this shifte made it heresie and blasphemie to say that Christ had nothing of his own where the friers were neuer so madde to defend that Christ and his Apostles had no right nor proprietie to the clothes which they ware and meates which they vsed but they rather detested the monstruous wealth and riote of Monckes and Bishops which pretending to forsake the worlde and followe Christ heaped greater riches and wallowed in oftner pleasures than any secular persons which soare when the wretched friers began to touch they were condemned and burned for heretikes These were the principal grifes against Lodouike which the Pope and the Cardinals could neuer digest I meane his resisting their pride and misliking their wealth for these causes when he offered reconciliation and satisfaction that the Christian world might haue rest from those domesticall warres and miseries the Pope would receiue none but on these conditions that the Prince shoulde confesse him selfe guiltie of al those errors and heresies that were laide to his charge that he should resigne the Empire and not resume it without the Popes leaue that he should put himselfe his Children and his goods into the Popes hands to be done withal as should please the Pope Such was the mildnesse of this Romish Sainct that his hart could not be satisfied but with the vtter destruction of the Emperour and his children which when the Princes and Bishops of Germanie perceiued they signified their generall determination to Lodouicke in these wordes Most gratious Lord and Emperour the Princes electours and other the faithfull of your Empire perusing the articles of your submission which the Pope requireth and resteth on with one consent haue decreed them to be conceiued to the subuersion and ouerthrow of the Empire so that neither you nor they by reason of the
Westmonasterium de seruanda Ecclesiae libertate quando consecrati fuistis vncti in regema predecessore nostro Theobaldo Keepe in memorie the confession which you made and layd vpon the altar at Westminster touching the keeping of holy churches liberties when you were consecrated annointed king by my predecessour Theobald Theoph. Your Canterburie Saint was very carefull to put the King in mynd of Church-mens libertie but hee was neuer so religious as to remember what was Church-mens duetie to God and the magistrate Hee could call on others to keepe touche but him-selfe procured a dispensation that his othe shoulde not tye him though it were neuer so lawfull and honest And surely this was a seemely sight for a subiect that had violated his owne fayth and trueth to importune his Soueraigne to obserue couenaunts but such is your store for want of better you must bring periures to talke of promises Phi. The Patriarkes of Constantinople tooke an instrument of such as were to be crowned Emperours specially in the times of heresie wherein they made the like promise and profession to keepe and defend the fayth and decrees of holy Councels So did the Patriarch Euphemius in the coronation of Athanasius Nicephorus in the inuesting of Michael and others in the creation of other Emperours of the East And Zonaras writeth that the Patriarche of Constantinople plainly tolde Isaac Commenus the Emperour that as by his handes hee receiued the Empire so if hee gouerned not well by him it shoulde bee taken from him againe Theo. From Popes you come to Patriarches from Rome to Constantinople and there in steede of deposing them after their coronation you shew what was exacted at their handes before they were crowned and that not euer nor by any superiour calling but the Bishop of that citie offering once or twise rather to loose his life than to crowne one that he feared would innouate the fayth or afflict the Church Euphemius was the first that gaue this onset and the first that repented it When Ariadna the Empresse that buried her husbande aliue being fallen into a traunce would needes exalt Anastasius a man of no great reckoning before and bestowe both the scepter and her selfe vppon him Euphemius the Patriarch whether it were that hee claymed a consent in that election as wel as others or suspected Anastasius inclination and so thought it easier to exact a confession of his fayth before than after his coronation required him vnder his handewriting to promise that hee woulde alter no poynt of Religion established in the Church Which Anastasius then yeelded to doe but as soone as hee was crowned the first thing almost that hee did he banished Euphemius for his bolde aduenture What you would conclude out of this fact for the deposition of Princes I knowe not well I wotte the Prince depriued the Patriarche and not the Patriarch the Prince though hee fell from the faith which he professed and promised at his coronation to continue Phi. Hee did that hee did by violence Theo. I commend not his doings onely I woulde haue you marke that though he ioyned tyrannie with heresie neither Patriarch nor Pope did depose him Philand The Pope did excommunicate him Theo. So you sayd before but you prooued it by no sufficient testimonie yet graunt hee were I thence inferre the teachers people of the Primatiue Church endured and obeyed an hereticall and excommunicate person as their lawfull Emperour which cleane euerteth all your platfourme Phi. Nicephorus required the like writing of Michael Theo. Michael was chosen to the Empire Stauracius yet liuing and not allowing their act and when hee came the next day to the Church to bee Crowned the Patriarch required his writing that hee woulde neither spill Christian blood nor chaunge the fayth of the Church which Michael willingly graunted Philand The Patriarch then prescribed conditions to the Prince Theo. When the Empire went by election the people might prescribe needefull and honest conditions to which their princes should subscribe before they were crowned Phi. But I talke of the Patriarch Theo. The Patriarch did it not often There were fourtie Christian Emperours from Constantine to Michael and this writing neuer required but of two and those not succeeding but elected Whose coronation the people might tie to those Christian and godly conditions And though the Church were the meetest place and the Patriarch the fittest person in matters of fayth to take the Princes subscription yet was it doone in the presence of the whole people and not without their consents and then onely when some feare of alteration vrged them vnto it The Patriarch of himselfe had neither right nor power to draw the Prince to such couenants as hee would limit and therefore it was necessary the people should ioyne their authoritie with his in that action Philand The Patriarch would not crowne him vnlesse he would subscribe Theo. If he would not an other might The ceremonie of setting the Crowne on the Princes head is a seruice due to him that is chosen not any superioritie in him that doth it and if it bee refused by him that of order is bound to doe it any Christian Bishoppe may perfite it and the other bee punished for his recusance Phi. The Patriarch by your leaue had more interest to the crowning of the Emperour than you mention For Polyeuctus the Patriarch would not suffer Ioannes Zimisces so much as to enter the Church till he had banished the murderers of the former Emperour and thrust the Empresse out of the Court and torne the booke which the Bishoppes were in trouble for and giuen all his goods to the poore Theo. The Empire of Constantinople was nowe 970. yeres after Christ caried along neither by lawfull succession nor election but become a very pray for him that woulde murder his master and defile his mistresse without all respect of dutie or honestie Zimisces not content secretly to keepe Nicephorus wife with her helpe most villanously flew the Emperour in his bed commaunding his men besides the wounds they gaue him in the head and elsewhere with the hilts of their swordes to dash out his teeth breake his iaw-bones Upon this horrible and diuelish slaughter when he came to the Church intending to haue the crowne the Patriarch would not suffer him being polluted with blood to come within the Church Where he confessing that others did it by instigation of the Empresse the Patriarch required that she might bee foorthwith banished and they pursued and the booke torne that entangled the Bishoppes and that he would thinke on some punishment for himselfe Zimisces yeelded to all that the Patriarch asked and for himselfe promised to giue the goods which he had gotten whiles hee was a priuate man to the poore How this serueth your turne I see not The Patriarch kept him not from the Crowne but from the Church
persons for that is truely and properly catholike By this rule your erecting adoring of images in the church is not catholike For first it is prohibited by gods law where the text goeth against you the gloze caÌ„not helâ— you If there be no precept for it in the word of god in vaine do you seek in the church for the catholike sense and interpretation of that which is no where found in the Scriptures If it bee not Propheticall nor Apostolical it cannot be catholike nor ecclesiasticall Againe how hath this beene alwaies in the church which was first decreed 780. yeares after Christ It is too yong to bee catholike that began so late you must go neerer Christ his Apostles if you wil haue it catholike or ancient Thirdly al places persons did not admit the decrees of that couÌ„cell For besides Africa Asia the greater which neuer receiued them the churches of England France Germanie did contradict refute both their actions reasons And in Greece it selfe not long before a Synod of 330. Bishops at Constantinople condemned aswel the suffering as reuerencing of images Phi. The most part of this that you say is false the rest we litle regard so loÌ„g as we be sure the church of Rome stood fast with vs. Theo. Al that I said is true as for the church of Rome she can make nothing catholike That the church of England detested that 2. councell of Nice Roger Houeden that liued 400. yeares agoe witnesseth Charles the king of France sent ouer into England the Actes of a Synod sent him from Constantinople Where out alas are found many vnseemely things contrary to the true faith specially for that it is there confirmed with the general assent of all the East teachers to wit of 300. Bishops moe that images ought to be adored the which the church of God vtterly detesteth Against the which Albinus wrote an epistle maruelously grouÌ„ded on the autority of the diuine scriptures caried it with the said Synodical acts in the name of our english Bishops princes to the K. of France Charles two yeares after called a great Synod of the Bishops of Fraunce Italie and Germanie at Franckford where the 2. councell of Nice was reiected and refuted Phi. Nay the councell of Constantinople against images was there reuersed and explosed Theo. Your friendes haue done what they could to make that seeme likely and many of your stories run that way for life but the worst is the men that liued and wrate in that verie age doe marre your plaie Regino saith Pseudo synodus Graecorum quam pro adorandis imaginibus fecerant à Pontificibus reiecta est The false Synode of the Graecians which they made for defence of the worshipping of images was reiected by the Bishops assembled at Franckford vnder Charles Hincmarus Archbishop of Remes then lyuing when these thinges were in freshe memorie saieth thus of Charles his Councell The seuenth general councell so called by the Graecians in deed a wicked councell touching images which some would haue to be broken in peeces some to be worshipped was kept not long before my time by a number of Bishops gathered togither at Nice and sent to Rome which also the Bishop of Rome directed into France Wherfore in the raigne of Charls the great the Sea Apostolike willing it so to bee a generall Synode was kept in Germany by the conuocation of the said Emperour and there by the rule of the Scriptures doctrine of the fathers the false councel of the Graecians was confuted vtterly reiected Of whose confutation tâ—ere was a good big booke sent to Rome by certaine Bishops from Charles which in my yong yeares I read in the Palace Vrspergensis hath bin vnder the file of some monkish deprauer as many other writers fathers haue bin For in him you haue razed out the name of the citie of Nice put in CoÌ„stantinople to make men beleeue the Synod of FraÌ„ckford condemned not the 2. Nicene councel that setled adoration of images but an other of Constantinople that banished images Vrspergensis saieth The Synod which not long before was assembled vnder Irene Constantine her sonne in Constantinople called by them the seuenth generall councell was there in the councell of Franckford reiected by them all as void and not to be named the 7. or any thing else Here some foolish forgerer hath added these words in Constantinople whereas it is euident the councel vnder Irene and Constantine her sonne was kept at Nice not at Constantinople Hincmarus that liued in the time of Charles and read the booke it selfe of the Synode of FraÌ„ckford when it was first made saith the Bishops assembled in Germany by Charles vtterly reiected refuted the councel of Nice called the seuenth generall councell The very same words at Constantinople are in the actes of the councell of FraÌ„kford as LaureÌ„tius Surius saith though very falsly for though that I find in the booke it selfe contrary to the plaine words in many places and namely in the 4. booke 13. chapter where they are refelled from comparing themselues with the 1. Nicene councell because they were assembled in the same city so li. 4. ca. 24. But if the words had bin conueied in as they are not except Surius copie be framed by Surius himself to verifie his own saying what proofe is this that the Synod of Franckford neuer deâ—reed against adoration of Images but rather with it as that mouthie Frier obserueth where the reasons and authorities of the 2. Nicene councell for adoring images are truely and fully refuted throughout those foure bookes And his conclusion that wee haue forged those bookes conueied them into the Popes library where they ly written in auncient characters as the keeper of the Popes library confesseth is like the rest and not vnlike himselfe who careth not what he writeth so it serue his humour and helpe his cause For otherwise who that were master of himselfe would suppose it easier for vs to forge foure whole bookes in Charles name and to write them in auncient handes and thrust them into the Popes librarie and into many other churches and Abbaies and no man spie it than for you hauing the bookes so many hundreth yeares in your keeping to put in this one word Constantinople And if our lucke were so good to forge so neere the Popes nose and not be descried who forged Hinâ—marus Regino Houeden Vrspergensis Adon Auentine and others that testifie the Councell of Frankford refuted the false Synode which the Graecians kept Pro odorandis imaginibus For the adoring of images If you were so negligent as to suffer so many to be forged against you and laide in your libraries you not find it how iust cause haue wee to perswade our selues that you would winke with both eies when others should be corrupted to make for your
purpose Phi. Many you know report for vs that Charles and his councell condemned the breakers of images and a number of your owne side confesse the same Theo. In stories we must not respect the number vehemencie but the antiquitie and sinceritie of the authors Two hundreth that liued long after were not acquainted with the deedes themselues can not counteruaile two that liued in the same age and had the full perusing of their actes Againe your later writers were all addicted to images and therefore they would not acknowlege that euer the councell of Franckford condemned the councell of Nice for adoring images Lastly it is not altogether a lie when they say the councell of Franckford refused the councell of Constantinople For where the councell of Constantinople said it was idolatrie to haue them and the councell of Nice defined it lawfull to worship them the councell of Franckford as Hincmarus confesseth liked neither but held it a thing indifferent to haue them adiudged it a meere impiety to worship them Phi Then hauing of images you graunt was catholike though the worshipping of them in some places were not so taken Theo. The hauing of images was neuer catholike and the worshipping of them was euer wicked by the iudgement of Christes church Phi. At this time the West church did not gainesay the hauing of them Theo. The West church at this time vsed them only as ornamentes and monumentes for the ruder sort to learne the liues and deathes of ancient vndoubted Martyrs but if you forget not your selfe you bee 800. yeres too short of catholik euen then by the churches of EnglaÌ„d France Spaine and Germanie was the worshipping of images detested and refuted as contrary to the christian faith Phi. By worshipping and adoring of images we doe not meane that godly honor should be giuen to them but only a kinde of external dutie reuerence with the gesture of the body as kneeling kissing censing religious holding vp of eyes and handes before them with such like signes of outwarde submission Theo. Neither do I thinke that Adrian the Bishop of Rome or the Grecians were so blasâ—hemous brutish idolaters that they decreed diuine honor to dead sensles stocks though your SchoolemeÌ„ not long before our age came to that grosse â—ilâ—hy doctrine salued it with a vaine translatioÌ„ of the honor that was done to the image as passing from the image to the principall it selfe represented by the image But the Grecians I thinke ment an externall regard reuerence such as is giuen to the sacred vessels bookes elementes that are vsed in baptisme at the Lords Supper For those be their owne comparisons though their words be adoration veneration yet that externall corporall honor giuen to images the West Bishops abhorred as neither catholike nor christiaÌ„ and the church of Christ long before them condemned as hereticall Gregory the first 200. yeares before Charles called the councel of FraÌ„ckford thought it not amisse to haue painted histories suffred in the church but in no wise the pictures to be worshipped Your brotherhood saith he to Serenus Bishop of Massilia seeing certaine worshippers of images brake the said images and cast theÌ„ out of the church The zeale which you had that nothing made with hands should be worshipped we praise but we thinke you should not haue broken those images For painting is therefore vsed in churches that they which are vnlearned may by sight read that in the walles which in bookes they caÌ„not Your brotherhood should therefore haue spared the breaking of theÌ„ yet restrained the people froÌ„ worshipping them that the rude might haue had how to come by the knowledge of the story yet the people not sinne in worshipping the picture Painted stories Gregory thought might be tolerated in the church for the simple to learne the deathes and martyrdoms of many Saints which in bookes they could not but as for worshipping them he confesseth the people should sinne in doing it and the Bishop did well in keeping them from it And treating in an other place of the same matter he saith The children of the church now disperced are to be called togither and taught by the testimonies of the sacred scriptures that nothing made with hands may be worshipped And so concludeth adoration of images by all meanes auoide S. Ambrose speaking of that crosse on which Christ was crucified saith Helena found the title worshipped the king not the wood surely for that is the error of the Gentiles and vanitie of the wicked S. Augustine requiring the Mâ—nichees to shew what one thing they could mislike in the catholik church Bring me not saith he such christians as either knowe not or keepe not the force of their profession Rake not after the rude sort which euen in true religion are intangled with superstition My selfe know many that are worshippers of tombes and pictures I warne you that you cease to speake euill of the catholike church by carping these mens maners whome the church her selfe condemneth and seeketh euery day to correct theÌ„ as vngracious children Marcellina is reckoned and detested as an heretike by Ireneus Epiphanius and Augustine for hauing the images of Christ and Paul in her closet and setting garlandes on their heades and burning incense to them Marcellina sayth Austen was of Carpocrates sect and worshipped the images of Iesu Paul Homere and Pythagoras with bowing her selfe burning incense So sayth Epiphanius Of this sect was Marcillina of Rome Shee made secretly the images of Iesu and Paul and Homere and Pithagoras and burned incense to theÌ„ worshipped theÌ„ And charging the whole sect of Carpocrates with the same fault he saith The heretikes called Gnostici Besides all this haue images painted with colours and some of gold and siluer which they say are the images of Iesu and made in the time of Pontius Pilate when Christ was conuersant amongst men These they keepe closely And so doth Ireneus also witnesse they all restrayning and adiudging it to be heresie and idolatry to cense bow to the image of Christ or Paul as wel as to the image of Homer or Aristotle Phil. Not so neither Theo. Yeas euen so This in manifest wordes is reckoned by these three fathers for a speciall point part of their wickednes as well as the worshipping of other Philosophers images Phi. Put you no distinction betweene the images of Christ other prophane persons Theo. The worshipping of either is heathenisme idolatry Phi. Call you the image of Christ an Idole Theo. Not vnlesse it be worshipped but if it be then is it an Idoll incense burnt vnto it is idolatrie Phi. How proue you that Theo. If the iudgement of christes church in accompting them heretikes for that act do not weigh heauie enough with you the law of God coÌ„firmeth the same Phi. Where The. You be
as it is for the precept is not written though the causes and consequents may bee iustified by that which is written And this is not straunge with Saint Austen to call that an vnwritten Tradition which him-selfe confesseth may be warranted by the scriptures Phi. What haue wee here One and the same Tradition confessed by saint Augustine to bee both written and vnwritten Theoph. One and the same Tradition I say confessed to bee written and yet warranted by the Scriptures Phi. That were newes Theo. None at all Goe no farther than your second example of rebaptizing and you shall see it to be true S. Augustine calleth it an vnwritten Tradition or Custome of the church in many places Hee sayth expressely of it Quam consuetudinem credo ex Apostolica Traditione venientem sicut multa non inueniuntur in Literis eorum c. Which custome I think came from the apostles as many other things that are not found in their writings And againe of the very same Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt The Apostles in deede commaunded nothing in that case as also there bee many thinges which the whole Church obserueth though they be not found written Phi. That we knowe to be true neuer spend more time about it but let vs heare where S. Austen saith this Custome is also warranted by the scriptures Theo. You can not misse it if you read the very same bookes where the other is witnessed Now saith he lest I seeme to dispute this matter by humane reasons because the darkenes of this question draue great men and men endued with great charitie the bishops that were in former ages of the church before the schisme of Donatus to doubt and striue but without breach of vnitie ex euangelio profero certa Documenta quibus Domino adiuuante demonstro Out of the Gospel I bring sure groundes by Gods helpe to make proofe thereof And hauing disputed it a while We follow that saith he which the custome of the church hath alwaies obserued a plenarie councel cōfirmed And the reasons and testimonies of scriptures on both sides being throughly weighed I may say we follow that which trueth hath declared And repeating the euidence of his side he saith it may be vnderstood by the former custome of the Church by the strength of a generall councell that followed by so many so weightie testimonies of the holy scriptures by manifolde instructions out of Cyprians owne workes and very plaine arguments of trueth And therefore drawing to an end he saith It might perhaps suffice that our reasons being so oft repeated and diuersly debated and handled in disputing and the Documents of the holy Scriptures being added and so many testimonies of Cyprian him-selfe concurring iam etiam corde tardiores quantum existimo intelligunt by this time the weaker and duller sort of men as I thinke vnderstande that the baptisme of Christ can not bee violated by no peruersenesse of the partie that giueth it or taketh it and therefore must not bee iterated Thus in one and the selfesame worke you see S. Austen auouching it to be a Tradition not written and yet confirmed by manifest scriptures Phi. I heare him say so but I see not how it can be Theo. You will not for feare you shoulde see your selues conuinced of an error it is otherwise plaine enough The thing it selfe is not written but receiued by Tradition mary the grounds of it be so layd in the scriptures that it may thence bee rightly concluded The like we say for the baptisme of infants the precept it selfe is not written nor any example of it in the scriptures but it was deliuered vnto the church by tradition from the Apostles mary it so dependeth on those principles of faith which bee written that it may bee fairely deduced from them and fully proued by them Phi. By Tradition onely hee and other condemned Heluidius the heretike for denying the perpetual virginitie of our Lady Theo. Your stoare fayleth you when you flee from fayth and hope in GOD to examine Ioseph and Marie that you may picke out somewhat betweene them to impeache the perfection of the Scriptures That Christ was borne of a virgine vndefiled is an high point of fayth and plainely testified in the Scriptures That after the birth of her Sonne she was not knowen of her husband is a reuerend and seemely truth preserued in the Church by witnesses woorthie to bee trusted but no part of fayth needefull to bee recorded in the Scriptures Phi. Saint Augustine sayth it is Integra fide credendum est With an vpright fayth we must beleeue that blessed Mary the mother of God and Christ was a virgin in conceiuing a virgin when she was deliuered and remained a virgin after the birth of her sonne And we must beware the blasphemie of Heluidius which sayde shee was a virgin before but not after the birth of Christ. Theo. Grate not on these thinges which were better to bee honoured with silence than discussed with diligence The booke which you bring is not S. Augustines It was found vnder Tertullians name as wel as vnder Augustines though Tertullian himselfe bee twise there noted for an heretike and chalenged the first time for that very error which S. Augustine in his true booke of heresies doeth acquite him from And yet these wordes Credendum est Mariam virginem concepisse virginem genuisse post partum virginem permansisse Wee must beleeue that the mother of Christ was a pure virgin when she conceiued when shee brought forth his sonne and after she was deliuered do not touch your question as they are defended by S. Augustine in his vndoubted woorkes to bee part of our fayth but onely that shee was a pure virgin after his birth notwithstanding his birth And therefore hee sayth Quisi velper nascentem corrumperetur eius integritas iam non ille de virgine nasceretur If Christes birth euen when hee was borne shoulde haue violated the virginitie of his mother then had hee not beene borne of a virgin So that as shee conceiued the Lorde and was still a virgin so shee was deliuered of him and her selfe yet a virgin that is not onely without the knowledge of man but also without all hurt of her body she remaining after shee was deliuered of her childe as perfect a virgin in body as shee was before she conceiued him And this to be the right meaning of those wordes Post partum virgo permansit shee remayned a virgin after the birth of her child when her virginitie must bee vrged for a poynt of fayth the sermons extant vnder the name of S. Augustine do clearly confesse Nec dubites Mariam virginem mansisse post partum quia qualiter hoc factum sit non humanus sermo neque sensus potest comprehendere Neuer doubt but Marie remained a virgin after the birth of her childe although
seruice Againe the publike Seruice had but one language in this exercise they spake in many tongues In the the publike Seruice euery man had not his owne special tongue his special interpretation speciall Reuelation proper Psalmes but in this they had Againe the publike Seruice had in it the ministration of the holy Sacrament principally which was not done in this time of conference For into this exercise were admitted Catechumens and Infidels and whosoeuer would in this women before S. Pauls order did speake and prophesie so did they neuer in the ministration of the Sacrament With many other plaine differences that by no meanes the Apostles wordes can be rightly and truely applied to the Corinthians Seruice then or ours now Therefore it is either great ignorance of the Protestants or great guilefulnesse so vntruely and peruersly to apply them Theo. Before I reply let me aske you a question Phi. With a good will Theo. Are you not a Priest Phi. I am or I should be Theo. I will not oppose you after what order Aarons being abolished Melchizedecks not imparted to any mortal man But by vertue of your priesthood are you not bound to catechise as wel as to baptize that is to preach the word as wel as to minister the sacraments Phi. So we do as time and place require Theo. If I should vrge you that you your felowes neuer preach because euery holyday sunday you say Masse massing is apparently no preaching what would you answer Phi. I would answer that you made a very childish foolish argument For though the one be not the other yet we may do both at one time in one place successiuely before wee depart And if you doubt of this the meanest parish clarke in Christendome may be your master Theo. You pul not me but your self by the nose Philander and mark it not Your inuincible arguments wherby you would proue that S. Paul in this whole Chapter spake nothing of the Church seruice in Corinth are such ridiculous toyes of all the worlde as this which I brought for example to trie your patience with Phi. You shall not defeate the force of our reasons with such a iest Theo. Neither shall you delude the Apostles doctrine with such a shift The Church of Corinth had then as al other Churches nowe haue or should haue both praying preaching annexed and adioyned to the ministration of the Lords supper Both these yet are euer were the meanes which God ordained to prepare vs to be fit ghests for that Table Howe shal they saith the Apostle call on him in whom they haue not beleeued and how shall they beleeue in him of whom they haue not heard how shall they heare without a Preacher Hearing is the nurce of faith and faith is the fountaine of praier without praier wee may not approach to God nor to the Sacrament of thankesgiuing which by the very name it beareth putteth vs in mind what duty we must yeeld to God when we are partakers of it By this it is euident that teaching in the church of God doth not exclude praiing but is rather the mean that God hath appointed to direct incite the minds of the faithfull to make their praiers vnto him in such sort as they ought when they are gathered togither in Christs name to serue God the father in the spirit of his sonne And so the holy Ghost describeth the church that was at Ierusalem vpon the first spredding of the Gospel from whence we must take the forme of Apostolik churches They continued saith the Scripture in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and praiers noting doctrine prayers brotherly communion at the Lords table to be the publike exercises of christians in their assemblies where the Apostles themselues were present in their persons to guide gouerne those meetings Phi. You come not yet to the point Theo. I will not long be from it These praiers exhortations and instructions which the faithfull had in their assemblies were they not partes of the seruice which they yeelded to God Phi. Yees but not of the church seruice Theo. What seruice was there in the church besides this that I mention Phi. The ministration of the Sacrament Theo. If you meane the order and fashion of administring the Sacrament Saint Paul receiued that of the Lord and deliuered it to the church of Corinth in such manner and forme as we finde expressed not many leaues before in the 11. of this Epistle But there is no church seruice prescribed or named onely the elemēts and actions of the Lordes supper are particularly remembred and committed to the church as her chiefest iewell in her husbandes absence vntill hee come Phi. Thinke you they had no set Rites Collectes nor praiers deliuered them from the Apostles for that holy action Theo. You presume they had and vppon that false imagination you ground the most part of your headlesse argumentes that the Apostle speaketh not of the Church seruice Phi. Had they no speciall forme of prayer prescribed in their churches whiles the Apostles liued Theo. Had they say you Phi. Else they had nothing but confusion in their churches Theo. Blaspheme not so fast The power of the holy Ghost miraculously supplying all wantes and inspiring the Pastours and Elders in euery Church howe to pray was no confusion Phi. Do you thinke they changed their prayers in euery place and at euery meeting as pleased the minister Theo. You may well perceiue by the Apostles wordes that they had neither Sermons nor Seruice prefixed nor limited in his time but when the Church came togither the Elders and Ministers instructed the people and made their prayers by inspiration Phi. I knowe they did so but this was not the Church Seruice Theo. This was all the church Seruice they had to which they added the celebration of the Lordes supper but without any setled or prefined order of praier except it were he Lords praier which they obserued in all places as comming from the mouth of Christ himselfe their Soueraigne Lord and Master Phi. Mary Sir that were euen such seruice as you haue at this day where euery blind Minister bableth what he listeth Theo. Iest not at God except you wil be Iulian. Phi. I iest at your disorder which you would seeme to deriue frō the Primatiue Church of the Apostles Theo. In deede wee haue not so many turnes and touches bowtes and becks as you haue in your Masses other disorder in our Seruice I know none vnlesse it bee that wee doe not swinge the Censers rince the chalice tosse the mass-Masse-booke plaie with the host and sleepe at Memento as you doe with a number of like toyes throughout your seruice Phi. Doe not you nowe iest at our Seruice Theo. At your stage-like gestures I may without offence but you iested at the miraculous gift of the holy Ghost guiding the
Pastours and prophetes of the primatiue church in their publike praiers and exhortations and called it a confusion and resembled it to our babling in the church at this day which you thinke to be very disordered Phi. I see no proofe that the Pastours of the Church in the Apostles time made their publike prayers as you say by miraculous instinct of the spirite Theoph. Doe but open your eyes when you reade this chapter and you can not choose but see it Both this and the twelfth chapter treate wholy of the gifts of the spirite Where you finde that to one was giuen by the spirit the word of wisedome to an other the word of knowledge to an other fayth to an other giftes of healing by the same spirite to an other operation of wonders to an other prophesie to an other discerning of spirites to an other diuersities of toungs to an other interpretation of toungs Phi. Here is not the gift of praier numbred amongest them Theo. But in the fourteenth it is where shewing them how they should behaue themselues in the Church when the congregation was assembled he laieth this downe as a rule for them to follow I will pray with thee spirite but I will pray with the vnderstanding also I will sing with the spirite but I will sing with the vnderstanding also Else when thou blessest with the spirite how shal he that occupieth the room of the simple or common person say Amen at the giuing of thanks seeing he knoweth not what thou saiest To pray sing and blesse with the spirite in this place can bee nothing else but to be guided and led by the spirit in their praiers Psalmes thanks as they were in their doctrines interpretations exhortations which was by miracle on the suddain not by learning or study This was done in the church whē al the faithful were present to these praiers psalms thāksgiuings the people were to say Amen as the Apostle sheweth which is the ende signe and proofe of publike prayer among christians What is church seruice if this be not or what other Seruice could the Church haue besides hearing the word and offering their common supplications vnto God by the mouth of one man the rest vnderstanding what he said and confirming his praier with saying Amen Phi. The Apostle speaketh of one man supplying the place of the vulgar and you stretch it to the whole people Theo. If the praiers of the Church concerned some of the people and not all you might make that obiection with some shew but now it hath no color when S. Paul asketh How shal the simple man say Amen he meaneth not this or that man but any or euery And so the indefinite signifieth generally throughout the Scripture Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth no sinne that is Blessed is euery man to whom the Lord imputeth no sin Cursed be the man that obserueth not all the workes of the Law to doe them that is by S. Pauls owne exposition Cursed is euery man that continueth not in all things which are written in the booke of the Lawe to doe them The whole Scripture is full of the like And therefore Chrysostome noteth Indoctum promiscuam plebem vocat monstratque non leue incommodum esse si Amen dicere non possit The vnlearned he calleth the vulgar people and declareth it to be no smale inconuenience if they cannot say Amen Phi. I see they did praie sing and blesse with the spirite and that the people said Amen but had they no speciall nor vsuall praiers reserued for the ministration of the Sacrament which might not be varied Theo. You think belike they had your Introite Grail Tract Sequēce Offertorie Secrets Postcommunion Pax and Ite missa est Phi. Sure they had some precise forme of seruice though we know it not Theo. And since you knowe it not why should you make it the anker hold of all your exposition vpon S. Paul Phi. Had they no order for their seruice Theo. What a stirre here is for that which the Apostles neuer did Had they set an order for the seruice of the Church durst any man after haue broken it Phi. S. Iames masse is yet extant Theo. And so are a number of other foolish forgeries as wel as that Phi. Do you think it forged Theo. Which of S. Iames masses do you meane Phi. There are not so many that you should aske which Theo. Two there are vnder his name the one nothing like the other yet both fathered vpō him Phi. We haue but one and that set in order of church seruice with mutual praiers and answers for Priest and People very perfectly Theo. And the other you shall find in the eight booke of Clemens Apostolike constitutions where the fourteene Apostles for so you haue increased their number as well as their constitutions take precise order what praiers answers and actions shal be vsed at the mysticall sacrifice their first prescription being this that Two Deacons shal be on both sides of the altar with tuffs of pecocks tails in their hands to driue away gnats left they light in the Chalice a graue consideration for Christs Apostles to meete together to make flappes to catch flies Phi. That I graunt is a matter of smal respect but yet not enough to refute the booke Theo. It is sufficiently refuted in that neither the Church of Christ nor your selues euer esteemed it Had this book beene Authentik it must needs haue beene taken into the canon of the Scriptures For if that which any one Apostle wrate be Canonical much more that which al the Apostles with common consent decreed and ordered Againe had the Apostles prescribed an exact fourme of diuine seruice for the Lords table what man would haue altered it or what Church refused it How would either Basill or Chrysostome haue presumed to make newe formes of Church seruice if those liturgies be theirs not rather forced on thē as this is on the first chiefe Apostles of Christ Why did the Latine Church and the Church of Rome her selfe neglect that seruice if it were Apostolike and preferre the praiers of one Scholasticus as worthier to be said ouer the deuine mysteries the maker being so obscure a man that his name is not knowen in the church of god why were the Bishops of Rome 600. yeares vpward patching piecing the masse before they brought it to any setled forme as your own fellowes confesse and yet then Rome had one forme of seruice Millan an other which they keepe at this day Fraunce a thirde Why did Gregorie when he was consulted by Augustine the monke what forme of diuine seruice he should commēd to the Saxons wil him to bind himselfe neither to Rome nor to any church els but to take from euery place that which he liked best and deliuer that vnto the English To
knowledge and gift not only permitted but also desired to exhort the people and giue thanks to God in other mens charges Philand This might be but how proue you this was the fault which the Apostle reproued Theo. I need not proue that If this which I speake might easilie come to passe then your inuincible arguments be sensible follies corelude vtterly no such thing as you imagine Your argumeÌ„t cannot be impregnable til your consequent be ineuitable since so many cases may be put though your antecedent be admitted to repel your consequeÌ„t what wisedome was it to make such vaunt of your forces not onely before the victory but when you see your selues so voide of al good artillerie Phi. Againe the publike seruice had but one language in this exercise they speak with many tongues Theo. Againe you can neither verifie your antecedent nor iustifie your consequent Set order of publike seruice they had none in the Apostles time the Pastors and ministers praied by heart as the spirite of God guided them This gift of praier some turned to their owne prayse and ostentation when they were admitted to giue thanks to God in the congregation of the faithfull and made their prayers in such tongues as they preferred or would seeme endewed with though the people vnderstood them not for which attempt the Apostle controlleth them Phi. These are your conceiuements Theo. Were they no mans but mine your reasons are weake and euen contemptible which you proclaimed for inuincible but as you heard S. Ambrose did informe you that these men whom S. Paul here toucheth vsed sometimes the Syrian and most times the Hebrew tongue in tractatibus aut oblationibus in their discourses to the people or ministration of the Sacrament as they pleased Phi. In the publike seruice euery man had not his owne speciall tongue his speciall interpretation special reuelation proper Psalmes but in this they had Theophil In the publike seruice of the church the ministers and Elders which were many both trauelers and there dwellers had euery man his Psalme his instruction his tongue reuelation or interpretation as the spirite of grace thought it most expedient for the setting foorth of Gods glory and the edifieng of their faithes that were present and other order of diuine seruice in the Apostolike and primatiue church wee reade for certaintie of none besides the action of the Lordes supper which the Apostles and so no doubt their churches alwaies vsed in the end of their publik meetings but with not set prayers saue onely the Lordes prayer as Gregorie confesseth the rest of their prayers blessinges and thanksgiuinges were in euery place made by the gift of the holy Ghost inspiring such as were set to teach and gouerne the church And though you haue long since their time framed a Liturgie in Iames name wheron you seeme to ground all the cauils that here are vrged as inuincible arguments yet for so much as the church of Christ did not acknowledge it and the words of Gregory directly impugne it we return that home to the forge whence it came your arguments back to you as wanting both truth strength to beare out your cause Phi. The publike seruice had in it the administration of the holy Sacrament principally which was not done in the time of this conference Theo. Though the Lordes supper was not ministred at that instant when the Pastors people were intending for doctrine yet did it follow immediatly vpon this exercise finished and due thankes offered to God by the whole church for the redemption of the world in the blood of his sonne neither besides your bold and bare negatiue do we see any cause why the singing blessing and thanksgiuing which S. Paul speaketh of should not be vnderstood to be the prayers and Psalmes that were vsed before after and at the Lordes table this I am sure S. Paul willeth all thinges to be done to edification and all must containe the church seruice ministration of the Sacrament as wel as Psalms or any other exercises of the church So that if the special discourse did not touch the ministration of the Lords supper the general direction doeth comprise it so much the more because the whole church as wel the people as the Preachers as well women as men haue equall interest in the Lords supper to be thereat fed and thereby stirred to giue thanks to God for the richesse of his mercie in the death of Christ. And if you thinke that vnderstanding and consenting is more needful for the people in any other prayers than in those that are made at the Lordes Table you erre not of ignorance but of wilfulnesse and care not what you say so you may entertaine the simple with somewhat for the sauing of your credite Phi Into this exercise were admitted the Catechâ—mens and Infidels and whosoeuer would in this weomen before S. Pauls order did speake and prophesie so did they neuer in the ministration of the Sacrament With manie other plaine differences that by no meanes the Apostles wordes can be rightly and truely applied to the Corinthians Seruice then or ours nowe Theo. You should close vppe the matter with the strongest argument you haue and this is the weakest At their prophesies that was at their sermons and exhortations Infidels and nouices not yet baptized might bee at their mysteries they might not be but were sent away and the doores shut when the faithfull approached to the Lordes Table Hence you may conclude that euery hearer of the woorde may not bee partaker of the diuine mysteries but that the one did not presently followe the other in the Seruice of the Church or that S. Paul did not meane them both you shall neuer conclude yea rather the sending them away that might not bee present argueth that the rest which were left did foorthwith addresse them-selues to the participation of the Lordes Table and that all which was doone in the Church before both exhorting and praying was referred to this end to make them meete commers to that heauenlie banquet Phi. That may bee but S. Paul speaketh of the one and not of the other Theo. That you should prooue if you coulde tell howe Phi. We haue alreadie prooued it by inuincible argumentes Theo. Marie that you haue if blinde surmises and loose sequeles may stand for argumentes otherwise what haue you saide that hath any shewe of proofe I will not saie of inuincible proofe Your maine foundation is a dreame of your owne that the Church of Corinth had a prescribed number and order of prayers pronounced by some one Chaplin that sayde his lesson within booke and might not goe one line besides his Missale for any good This you imagine was their Church Seruice all other prayers Psalmes blessings and thankes-giuings though they were vsed openly in the congregation and the whole people bound to say Amen you will not haue to
Saint Hierom of when hee sayde Quocunque te verteris whither soeuer thou turne thy selfe Philand Of other Countries Theoph. Of what other Countries Philand Of all other Countries and specially of the West partes where the latin seruice was Theoph. So you woulde enforce his woordes but you doe him the more wrong Philand Are not his woordes plaine Quocunque te verteris turne whither thou wilt the husbandman holding his plough singeth Allelu ia Theoph. In deede his woordes are plainely peruerted by you For Hierom speaketh not of the West but of the East not of Countries but of a poore village not of Latinists but of such as were borne and bred in Iurie where the natural speach of the place was Hebrewe Phi. Proue that to bee S. Hieroms meaning Theoph. They bee his woordes both before and after and those so plaine that I maruaile you could misse them In Christi vero vt supra diximus villula tota rusticitas extra Psalmos silentium est Quocunque te veteris arator stiuam tenens decantat Aallelu ia Sudans messor Psalmis se auocat curua attondens vite falce vinitor aliquid Dauidicum canit Haec sunt in hac prouincia carmina In the village of Christ as we haue said before there is nothing but rusticitie silence except it be in singing of psalmes Turne whither you wil in this village the husbandman holding his plough continually singeth Allelu ia The mower when he sweateth and is wearie refresheth himselfe with psalmes The Gardiner as he dresseth his vine with his hooke hath some peece of Dauid in his mouth These are the songes of this prouince or place What word or title is here for the seruice in the latine toung except you thinke that as the Pope claimeth to bee Lord of the whole worlde so euery Countrie throughout the worlde spake then nothing but Latine which were a merrie conceite to make sporte with if there were nothing looked for at your handes but laughter Phi. In sifting our authorities you take hold of euery nice and curious point which with good conscience we did and may despise Theo. Call you that a good conscience to muster out eleuen authorities as ancient and flat testimonies for defence of your errour against the woordr of God and the church of Christ and not one of them any way respecting that which you should would seeme to proue That no Nation in the Primatiue church East West North nor South had their diuine seruice in a tongue not vnderstood of themselues is our assertion You shew that in Italie and Africa where the people perfectly vnderstood the Romane tongue they had their seruice in Latine and that the barbarous of this Realme and husbandmen of Bethleem sang Allelu ia which S. Augustine saith all nations did yea the Barbarians as well as the Romanes without translating that or Amen into their barbarous languages Hence you collect the seruice alwaies in Latine throughout the West church and paint that note by the side of your booke to make the simple beleeue those places which are found in your text to proue it to be true though not one of theÌ„ whom you cite affirm or mention any such thing Whether this be to vse your owne wordes great ignorance of Iesuites or greater guilefulnes so vntruly and peruersly to wrest the fathers and whether you can be catholikes that haue no better ground for your Latine and vnknowen seruice within this Reame let the Reader iudge Phi. Augustine our Apostle brought into this Realme the seruice in the Latine tongue and there are well neere a thowsand yeares past since he came And therefore S. Bede saith lib. 1. hist. Ang. cap. 1. that being foure diuerse vulgar languages in our Countrie the Latine was made common to them all Theo. You thought it long belike before you made vp the ful dozen of peruerted and misconstered authorities You abuse Bede as you doe the rest and no maruell to see you so bold with him when you haue ventered on so many Phi. Doth he not say this Iland had foure diuerse languages of their owne and the Latine which was the fift was made common to them all Theo. Not by hauing their seruice in Latine but by meditating and searching the Scriptures a number in euery of those foure Nations had gotten the knowledge of the Latine tongue Phi. Then the Scriptures were not in any of those languages and consequently neither the Psalmes nor Lessons which are necessary partes of the Church Seruice Theo. Reason better or hold your peace you doe but wast time about trifles Bedes wordes are Haec in praesenti quinque gentium linguis vnam eandemque summae verâ—tatis verae sublimitatis scientiam scrutatur confitetur Anglorum videlicet Britonum Scotorum Pictorum Latinorum quae meditatione Scripturarum caeteris omnibus est facta communis This Iland at this present searcheth and confesseth one and the verie same knowledge of the hiest veritie and truest sublimitie with the tongues of fiue Nations to wit the Saxons Britons Scots Picts and Latines whose tongue by the meditation of the scriptures is become common to all the rest Meditation of the scriptures in all mens eares saue yours is the diligent and often perusing of them to get the right vnderstanding of them and not the Church Seruice as you would secretly inferre neither doth Bede deny that the Scriptures were hearde or reade in the other foure tongues which were proper to the foure Nations of this Iland but rather affirmeth it when he saith this Countrie searched and confessed one and the very same knowledge of the highest truth with the tongues of fiue Nations foure of them being the British Saxon Scottish and Piâ—tish tongue in which also they searched confessed the knowledge of the true God though the deeper and better learned of them in euery of those Nations for an exacter kinde of meditating and studying the Scriptures gate them some skill in the Latine tongue wherein the Scriptures were more sincerely written and more substantially handled than they coulde bee in any of the other tongues amongest the Saxons Scots or Britons in that raw and rude worlde so soone vppon their conuersion to the faith and long desolation before of learning religion and good manners Phi. The Latine tongue was common to them all Theo. Not to euery particular man amongest them but to some speciall men in those foure Nations that were willing and able to meditate the Scriptures And had it beene common to them al that is to euery one of them as you would presse it that construction helpeth you nothing at al. For then the people of this land being able to meditate the Scriptures in the latine toung might verie well haue their sâ—ruice in the latine tongue because it was a knowen tongue and such as they readily vnderstood but I thinke the other of the twaine the more likely
and therfore I rest on it as on the truer though neither damnifie vs as touching this question the worth of a dodkin Phi. It were absurd to thinke that euery of the vulgar sort vnderstoode the Latine tongue Theo. Then is it more absurde when Bede saith The Latine tongue was made common to all the other foure tongues of this Land by the meditation of the Scriptures to interprete that of the vulgar sort and to refer it to the church seruice as you do Phi. You haue skanned our proofes at your pleasure but where all this while are yours that any christian Nation had their publike Seruice in a barbarous tongue I count all tongues barbarous besides the three learned toungs which are Latine Greeke and Hebrew Theo. In what toung ech Nation had their Seruice is nowe harde to bee knowen so many hundrethes yeares after and needlesse to bee discussed For when wee once founde it a rule laide downe by Sainct Paul that All thinges in the Church should be done to edification as well praying singing and thankesgiuing as preaching expounding the word which he calleth prophesieng and that no man is edified by that hee vnderstandeth not and also that the seruice in those two places and churches whereof we haue any records left was common to Priest and people and parted betweene them by verses and respondes the whole people men women and children singing the Psalmes answering to euery part of the seruice and saying Amen to the prayers that were made in all their names lastly that the catholike fathers in their seuerall times and cures taught the people should and witnes the people did vnderstande the publike prayers of the church what neede wee seeke further for barbarous Nations and tongues whereof we haue no monumenâ—â— wherein no famous or learned men wrote whose labors are come to our age or knowledge Phi. I thought you would shrinke when wee came to the quicke you loue to picke holes in other mens coates but not to shew your owne Belike it is so rotten it will not indure the handling Theo. Let the coate alone and come to the case Wee haue the flatte commaundement of God that all thinges in the Church shoulde bee doone to edification and the Apostles inferment that the simple man is not edified when hee vnderstandeth not what is said Your shiftes were that S. Paul spake not of the church prayers nor of the learned tongues Those wee haue refelled and are nowe come to the practise of Christes church which taking her direction from S. Pauls doctrine in this place framed her publike prayers in such order that the Pastour and people with ioyntlie and interchangeably blessed and praied eche with other and either for other not houlding it enough for the simple to say Amen they knewe not to what but requiring and appointing their deuoute distinct and intelligent answeres confessions blessinges and thankesgiuinges as well in the ministration of the Lordes supper as in other partes of their publike seruice The manner of their seruice where the whole church did with one heart and one voice sing praises to God and make their common supplications vnto him is the best exposition that may bee brought for the true construction of Sainct Pauls wordes and therein the auncient and Catholike church of Christ goeth expressely with vs and directly against you as appeareth by all the fathers that euer wrate of these thinges by the very sight and view of their liturgies by your owne authorities which here you abuse yea by the partes and prayers of your mass-Masse-booke prescribed for the people to requiâ—e the priest with and yet remaining in force and dayly vse amongest you In your Apostolike constitutions written by no worse man as you say than by Clemens successour to Peter and fellow labourer in the Gospell with hâ—m this order of seruice at the Lords table was prefixed to the whole Church were they Hebrewes Greekes Romanes Barbarians or whatsoeuer if they were Christians The Bishop shall say the grace of almighty God the loue of our Lord Iesus Christ and the communion of the holy spirit be with you al. And all the people shall answere with one voice And with the spirit Again let the Bishop say Lift vp your harts all let answere We lift them vp vnto the Lord. And againe the Bishop Let vs giue thankes vnto the Lord and all shall answere It is meete and right so to doe And at the ende of that praier it followeth Et omnis populus simul dicat and let all the people with one voice say holy holy holy Lord of hostes The heauen and earth are full of thy glory blessed art thou for euer Amen And so after Let the Bishop say the peace of God be with you all Let all the people answere and with the spirite Let the Bishop admonish the people with these wordes holy thinges for holy persons And let the people answere one holy one Lord one Christ be blessed for euer to the glory of God the father Osanna to the sonne of Dauid Blessed is hee that commeth in the name of the Lord the Lord our God hath appeared vnto vs. Osanna in the hiest If in euerie Church the people were to know when and what to answere in their diuine seruice and with many full and whole sentences to confirme and requite the Bishops prayers and blessinges it is euident they were to vnderstand their owne and the Bishoppes speech which in a straunge and vnknowen tongue such as is vsed in your churches it is not possible for simple men and women to doe Phi. You impugned these constitutioÌ„s but euen now as none of the Apostles Theo. But you receiue them vrge them as Apostolike and therefore against you such proofes are pregnant And so are the Liturgies that is the church prayers which are vnder the names of Iames Basill and Chrysostom in which the like order of praying and blessing by course is appointed both for Prieste and people Let the places be seene if they be not obuious to euery mans eyes let me be rebuked of a bould vntrueth Phi. Your selues admit not those Liturgies Theo. Wee doe not thinke that either Basil or Chrysostom would take vpon them to make a new forme of church seruice if S. Iames the Apostle had doone it before them neitherâ— was the Greeke church to seeke of her seruice till their times or toâ— change it at their pleasures yet the thinges which wee alleage out of these Liturgies haue the manifest testimonies as well of Basill and Chrysostom as of other catholike Fathers both Greeke and Latine in their vnforged vndistrusted writinges Chrysostom expressing the maner of the church in his time sayth Euen in the prayers of the church a man may see the people helpe or offer much togither with the priest for those that are possessed with wicked spirits for the repeÌ„tants CoÌ„munes enim preces à sacerdote
magis apposita The former diriuation of the word Mâ—ssa pleaseth me better as the likelier and not that it should signifie a sacrifice and be deriued from the Hebrew word Missà as Reuchline woulde deduce it And therefore he sayth Idem igitur mos a nostris etiam seruatur vt peractis sacris per Diaconum pronuncietur Ite missa est quod idem est ac ilicet id est ire licet The same maner is obserued of our men that at the ende of diuine seruice the Deacon should say ITE MISSA EST which is as if he sayd YOV MAY DEPART And that missa was vsual for missio he sheweth out of Cyprians epistles where he sayth remissa for remissio Rhenanus another of your friends giueth the like obseruation in his notes vppon the 4. booke of Tertullian against Marcion Hodie in fine Sacri Leuita pronunciat Ite missa est id est missio est quod olim in initio dicebatur antequam inciperentur videlicet ipsa mysteria Hinc iuxta vulgi consuetudinem Ambrosius missas facere dixit Propriè missa erat tempore Sacrificij quando Cathecumeni foras mittebantur At this day the Priest pronounceth at the end of his seruice Ite missa est that is go you haue leaue to depart which in the primatiue church was sayd in the beginning before they came to the celebration of the Sacraments Thence Ambrose vsed the word missam facere according to the vulgar custome of those tymes For properly missa was when the conuerts not yet baptized were sent away in the time of the sacrifice that is at what time the rest addressed themselues to be partakers of the Lords table And that missa was common for missio hee proueth by Tertullian and Cyprian in his booke de bono patientiae and epist. 14. And lest you shoulde thinke this to bee a phantasticall assertion of his without all ground or authoritie such as the most of your obseruations are hee telleth you that this mysterie of antiquitie is related in Isidores Lexicon And in deede so it is For Isidore sayth Missa tempore Sacrificij est quando Cathecumeni foras mittuntur clamaÌ„te Leuita si quis cathecumenus remansit exeat foras inde missa quia sacrameÌ„tis altaris interesse non possunt qui nonduÌ„ regenerati nascuntur Missa was about the tyme of the sacrifice when the learners and such as were not yet baptized were sent out of the Church the Leuite crying if any Cathecumene bee heere let him depart and thence is the word missa because they can not be present at the Sacrament of the Altar which are not yet regenerate And I thinke for very shame you would not séeme to be so foolish as to take missam Cathecumenorum which the fourth councell of Carthage doth mention in the place alleaged by your selues and likewise S. Austen in those very sermons which you cite as his for your Masse or Sacrifice For how can fit missa Cathecumenis stand either for the sacrament or sacrifice since the persons named were not baptized and consequently not to be admitted to any of the Church mysteries So that graunt the word missa were found oftner in the Fathers than it is you can thence conclude nothing for your Masse which you rudely and vnaduisedly thinke to be all one with their missa or missarum solemnia where in déede it is as contrarie to that which they spake of as poyson to an wholesome potion For missa with them did signifie the sending away of such as might not communicate with the rest at the Lords table the masse with you is the reall and actuall sacrificing of the sonne of God to his father and the setting of the people to gaze on the Priest whiles he alone deuoureth all and falsifieth the very words and actions of Christes institution Phil. Nay you falsifie both the words and déedes of Christes institution and though you gather out of Isidore and others that Missa in the ancient Fathers was the demising of such as might not be present at the Sacrifice and missa Cathecumenorum by no meanes can be our Masse yet touching our Sauiours institution of the blessed Sacrament we come néerer to this example than you do you missing it in most points that be essentiall and we following all his actions that are imitable Theop. What essentiall points do we misse Phil. Almost all Theop. Reason you named some Phil. You do not imitate Christ in blessing the bread and wyne nor in vnleauened bread and mingling water with wine nor in saying the words of consecration ouer the bread and wine you vse no confession before nor adoration of the blessed Sacrament at the receiuing of it A number of like defects there are in your communion which cause it to be no sacrament but common bread and wine Therfore imperet vobis Deus and confound you for not discerning his holy body and for conculcating the blood of the new Testament Theop. Kéepe your burning and cursing deuotion for your selues your manquelling and masse-mongring rage hath as much affinitie with Michaels praier beséeching God the diuell might be restrained as fiercenes and furie hath to patience and pietie If we haue altered any part of Christes institution curse on in Gods name and let your curses take effect But if the celebration of our mysteries be answerable to his will and word that first ordained them you curse not vs whome you would hurt but him that your cursed toongs can not hurt which is God to be blessed for euer and whose euerlasting curse will take hold of you if you relent not the sooner for your proude defiance and stately contempt of his truth in respect of your massing reuels and mummeries Philand Nay you are contemners of his true body and blood in this reuerent blessed and holy sacrament and breakers of his institution and therefore his curse will light on you Theop. Uaine spéech doth but spend time shew first wherein we breake Christes institution and for the truth of his presence in this Sacrament if we teach otherwise than the Scriptures and Fathers do warrant vs we are content to heare and beare the curse which blind zeale hath wrested from you Philand We shewed you euen now what things they were wherein you swarued from Christes institution Theoph. You must both repeate them and diuide them that we may the better discusse them Phil. I will Christ tooke bread into his hands applying this ceremonie action and benediction to it and did blesse the very element vsed power and actiue words vpon it as he did ouer the bread and fishes which he multiplied and so doeth the Church of God and so do not you if you followe your owne booke and Doctrine but you let the bread and cup stand aloofe and occupie Christes words by way of report and narration applying them not at all to the matter proposed to
neither denying auoyding defeating nor answering What if not one of these fathers whose works you cite as thick as hops euer spake or heard of your external and real sacrificing the sonne of God afresh for the sinnes of the worlde but they vsing the wordes Sacrifice and oblation to an other purpose you force a priuate and peculiar sense of yours vpon their speaches against their meanings Phi. This is euer your wont when the woordes bee so plaine that you can not deny them to flie to the meaning Theo. In deede this hath beene not the least of Satans sleights in conueying your Religion from steppe to step point by point to keepe the speach and chaunge the sense of the learned and auncient fathers that what with the phrases which were theirs and the forgeries which were not theirs and yet caried their names hee might make the way for Antichrist to set vp his visible Monarchie of error and hypocrisie Phi. This is the way to rid your selues of all obiections Theoph. And the other is the way to drowne your selues in the deapth of all corruption but so long as wee holde their fayth and doctrine which were the lights and lampes of Christes church we can spare you their phrases here and there skattered in their writings you no whit the neerer the trueth of their beliefe Phi. You hold not their fayth in this or any other point of your Religion Theo. The greatest boasters bee not alwaies the greatest conquerours Let it therefore first appeare what they teache touching the Sacrifice of the Lords table and what wee admit and then it will soone bee seene which of vs twaine hath departed from them The fathers with one consent call not your priuate Masse that they neuer knew but the Lordes Supper a Sacrifice which wee both willingly graunt and openly teach so their text not your gloze may preuayle For there besides the sacrifice of praier and thankesgiuing which we must then offer to God for our redemption other his graces bestowed on vs in Christ his sonne besides the dedication of our soules and bodies to be a reasonable quicke and holy sacrifice to serue and please him besides the contribution and almes then giuen in the primatiue Church for the reliefe of the poore and other good vses a Sacrifice no doubt very acceptable to God I say besides these three sundry sortes of offerings incident to the Lordes table the very Supper itselfe is a publike memorial of that great dreadful sacrifice I meane of the death bloodshedding of our sauiour and a most assured application of the merites of his passion for the remission of our sinnes not to the gazers on or standers by but to those that with faith and repentance come to the due receiuing of those mysteries The visible sacrifice of bread and wyne representing the Lords death S. Austen enforceth in these words Hold most firmly neither doubt of this in any case that the only begotten sonne of God taking our flesh offered himselfe a sweet smelling sacrifice to god to whom with the father the holy ghost the Patriarks Prophets Priests vnder the old law sacrificed brute beasts to whoÌ„ now in the time of the new Testament with the same father holy spirite the holy Catholike Church throughout the world doth not cease to ofâ—er the sacrifice of breade and wine in faith charitie In those carnal Sacrifices there was a figuration of the flesh of Christ which he should offer bloud which he should shed for the remissioÌ„ of our sins In this sacrifice there is a thankesgiuing remembrance of the flesh which he hath offered and bloud which the same god hath shed for vs. With him agreeth Ireneus Christ willing his Disciples to offer vnto God the first fruites of his creatures not that god needed them but lest they should be found vnfruiteful or vnthankful toke the creature of bread and gaue thanks saying this is my body And likewise he confessed the cup which is a creature amongst vs to be his bloud teaching the new oblation of the new Testament which the Church receiuing from the Apostles offereth to God throughout the world We must theÌ„ offer to god in al things yeeld thanks to god the maker with a pure mind vnfaigned faith stedfast hope and feruent loue offering the first fruits of his Creatures and this oblation the Church only sacrificeth in purity to the creator offering to God of his creatures with thanksgiuing And this we offer to him not as if he stoode in neede of these presents but rendring him thanks for these his gifts and sanctifieng the creature This oblation of bread wyne for a thankesgiuing to God a memoriall of his sonnes death was so confessed vndoubted a trueth in the church of Christ till your Schoolemen beganne to wrest both Scriptures and Fathers to serue their quiddities that not onely the Liturgies vnder the names of Clemens Basil and Chrysostome do mention it We offer to thee our king and God this bread this cup according to thy sonnes institutioÌ„ tua ex tuis offerimus tibi domine we offer thee O Lord these thy gifts of thine own creatures Which sense Irineus vrgeth against valentine but also the very Missals vsed in your own Churches at this day do confirme the same These be the woordes of your own Offertorie Receiue holy Father God euerlasting this vndefiled host which I thine vnworthy seruant offer to thee my king and true God for my sinnes negligences and offences innumerable for al standers by yea for all faithful christians as wel liuing as departed this life that it may helpe me theÌ„ to attaine eternal life We offer to thee O Lord this cup of saluation intreating thy goodnes that it may be taken vp into thy sight as a sweet smell for the sauing of vs the whole world Receiue blessed Trinitie this oblatioÌ„ which we offer to thee in remeÌ„brance of the passion resurrection asceÌ„tion of Christ Iesus our Lord. We humbly beseech thee most merciful father through Iesus Christ thy son our Lord that thou accept blesse these gifts these preseÌ„ts these holy vndefiled sacrifices which we offer to thee first for thy Church holy and catholike c. For al true belieuers c. For al here present c. For the redemption of their soules and hope of saluation Certainely you speake these words long before you repeate Christs institution your mass-Masse-booke doth apparently prooue that which I report if I mistake the secretes of your masse let the shame bee mine What then offer you in this place Christ or the creatures of bread wine By your own doctrine Christ is not present neither any change made til these wordes This is my body this is my blood be pronounced ergo before consecration the creatures of bread wyne keepe their
receiuing the whole church of God crieth vpon it Domine noÌ„ sum dignus Deus propitius esto mihi peccatori Lamb of god that takest away the sins of the world haue mercie on vs. And for better discerning of this diuine meat we are called from coÌ„mon profane houses to Gods church for this we are forbiddeÌ„ to make it in vulgar apparel are appointed sacred solemne vestments Hier. in Epitap Nepot li. 2. adv Pel. ca. 9. Paulinus ep 12. ad Seuer Io. Diac. in vit D. Greg. li. 3. ca. 59. For this is the hallowing of Corporals chalices Ambr. 2. off ca. 28. Nazian Orat. ad Arianos Optatus li. 6. in initio For this profane tables are remoued altars consecrated Aug. Serm. de temp 255. For this the very priests themselues are honorable chast sacred Hier. ep 1. ad Heliodor ca. 17. li. 1. adv Iouin ca. 19. Ambr. in 1. Tim. 3. For this the people is forbidden to touch it with common hands Nazian orat ad Arian in initio For this great care solicitude is taken that no part of either kind fall to the ground Cyril Hieros mystag 5. in fine Orig. ho. 13. in ca. 25. Exod. For this sacred prouision is made that if any hosts or partes of the Sacrament doe remaine vnreceiued they bee most religiously reserued with all honour and diligence possible and for this examinatioÌ„ of consciences confession continencie as S. Augustine saith receiuing it fasting Thus do we catholiks the church of God discerne the holy body blood by S. Pauls rule not only from your prophane bread wine which not by any secrete abuse of your Curates or clearkes but by the verie order of your booke the Minister if any remaine after your Communion may take home with him to his own vse and therfore it is no more holie by your own iudgement than the rest of his meates but from al other either vulgar or sanctified meates as the catechumens bread our vsual holy bread Theo. I had thought we should haue had adoration of the sacrament proued here commeth hallowing of coapes corporals chalices Altars priestes pixes and not at al or last of al the hallowing of soules which in wisemens account deserued to goe alone or at least first in the Kalender For your often curious clensing of the outsides of coates cups stones handes such like implementes sauoreth of the Pharisees holines who supposed then as you do now that God is highly serued with such solemne prouision sacred solicitude though this be more than euer Christ at his last supper had care for or mind of for ought that we find by report of the Gospell Mary this is not our purpose You must proue your adoration of the sacrament let hallowing of Uestments and Altars alone till an other time and persue that which is denied Phi. So we do Haue you not here S. Austen S. Ambrose S. Chrysostom S. Nazianzene Theodorete S. Denys that the sacrament should bee adored Theo. Theodorete is not in your bookes that he is not sainted with the rest yet is he an ancient learned writer but take your pleasure The rest well deserue it and therefore I am not angrie with it though S. Paul extende the name sainct to the hearers as well as to the â—eachers to the liuing aswell as to the dead Phi. You would be saints The. God grant vs to be his seruants Phi. You must change your faith first The. Why We worship no creatures in steed of Christ as you do Phi. Wil that lying neuer be left Theo. Would God for your own sakes it were a ly but I feare it is 〈◊〉 true Phi. Christ wee adore creatures we do not Theo. The sacramentes you adore and those be creatures as in Baptisme the water in the Lords supper the bread wine Phi. We adore the B. sacrament of the Altar as wee learned of the catholike fathers creatures we adore none Theo. Of what fathers did you learn it Phi. I haue told you of S. Austen S. Ambrose S. Chrysostom S. Nazianzene Theodorete S. Denys Theo. Set Theodorete aside who writing in greeke vseth the word adoration for an externall regard reuerence such as we giue to the books vessels that are sanctified to diuine vses though more amply to the sacramentes ordained by God himself saith that the mystical signes themselues remaining in their former earthly substance are adored that is reuerently religiously handled as becommeth so great mysteries I say set him aside not one of the rest so much as toucheth that which you should proue Phi. They say the sacrament must be adored Theo. They say Christ must be adored Phi. Yea but in the mysteries and on the altar Theo. So Christ is to bee adored in heauen in his church most of al in our own hearts bodies will you thence collect that either heauen or the Temple or our selues are to be adored Phi. But neither heauen nor the temple are sacraments Theo. Yet Christ is adored in them though they be not in like sort with him so may Christ be adored in the misteries though the mysteries themselues may haue no such honor Phi. S. AusteÌ„ saith It is he that the Apostle saith should be damned that doth not by singular veneration or adoration make a difference betweene this meate all others Theo. S. Austen in that place speaketh not one word of adoration He saith The Apostle affirmeth it to be vnworthily receiued of theÌ„ qui hoc non discernebaÌ„t à caeteris cibis veneratione singulariter debita which did not discern it from other meates with the veneration that was properly or singularly due vnto it Phil. Uery wel Singular veneration is al one with diuine adoration Theo. In your corrupted iudgemeÌ„ts Phi. What els is it Theo. VeneratioÌ„ is a word that S. Austen fourdeth al the signes sacraments of the old new Testament adoratioÌ„ he reserueth only to God Of veneratioÌ„ he saith Qui veneratur â—ignum vtile diuinitus insâ—itutum non hocâ— vèneratur quod videtur transit sed illud potius quo talia cuncta referenda sunt Hee that reuerenceth a signe that is profitable and ordayned by God reuerenceth not the thing which is visible and transitorie but that rather to which all such signes are referred And so concludeth namely of baptisme and the Lordes Supper Quae vnusquisque cuÌ„ percipit quâ— referantur imbutus agnoscit vt ea non carnalâ— seruitute sed spirituali potius libertate veneretur Which two Sacramentes when euerie Christian receiueth he knoweth being once partaker of them whither to refer them that he may reuerence them with a spirituall libertie rather than with a carnall seruitude And least you should not vnderstand what difference he putteth betweene the corporall creature and the heauenly brightnesse in this and so in other sacramentes he saith farther
is fiâ—lie prepared with faith and repentance to receiue and lodge so worthie a ghost Phil. The Sacrament is turned into the reall and naturall flesh of Christ and so are not we Theoph. If that were true when the Sacrament is turned by naturall digestion into the nourishment of our bodies the flesh and blood of Christ must likewise be conuerted into the substance of our bodies but that is so blasphemous and impious that you dare not abide it and therefore Christ entereth not our mouthes when he commeth vnder our roofe but possesseth our soules replenisheth them with his heauenlie presence power of grace and life neither must we saie to the Sacrament Lord I am not worthie since that is an earthlie and corruptible creature but to Christ himselfe who hath promised in his Gospell that he and his father wil come and dwel with vs and perfourmeth the same by the hearing of his worde and receiuing of his Sacraments by which meanes he commeth and dwelleth in our harts by faith as S. Paul affirmeth and not in our mouthes or bellies by anie local and reall comprehension as you imagine Phi. Wee doe not deny that Christ commeth by his worde vnto vs but the Sacraments haue a speciall presence of his which the worde hath not Theo. The sacraments take their force onely and wholy from the worde neither is the worde anie whit the stronger or better for the visible signes but our weaknes is staied and supported by them and they endued with power and vertue by the worde to sanctifie the receiuer where it is beleeued And therefore Christ commeth and dwelleth in vs as truely by his worde as by his sacraments and if you compare them more truely by his worde than by the signes and seales of his worde Phi. We eate his flesh and drink his blood in the sacrament in the word we do not Theo. We eate his flesh drinke his blood more truely in the word than in the Sacramental and mystical signes S. Hierom saith Ego corpus Iesu Euangelium puto quando dicit qui non commederit carnem meam biberit sanguinem meum licet in mysterio possit intelligi tamen verius corpus Christi sanguis eius sermo Scripturarum est The body of Iesus I think to be the Gospel when he saith he that doth not eate my flesh and drinke my blood though this maie be vnderstood of the Sacrament yet the worde of the Scriptures is more truely the bodie and blood of Christ. S. Austen saith Beleeue and thou hast eaten to beleeue in him is to eate the liuelie bread and that he calleth of the twaine the truer kinde of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ. For repeating these woordes of our sauiour he that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me and I in him he saith Ostendit quid sit non Sacramento tenus sed reuera coâ—pus Christi manducare Christ sheweth what it is to eate his flesh not by way of a Sacrament but in deede or truely So that the flesh and blood of Christ are MORE TRVELY in the members and words of Christ than in the Sacraments and yet your selues teache no man to say to the Preacher or the Scriptures Lorde I am not woorthie Phi. Chrysostome in his Masse sayde the very same woordes to the Sacrament Theo. Howe knowe you what hee sayde that died so long before you Phi. You shall find them in his Liturgie Theo. Well we may hereafter when you haue put them in but as yet we find no such wordes at all in his Liturgie Phi. The Greeke exemplar hath them Theo. Not those which either Erasmus or Leo Thuscus had when they translated it into Latin if you haue gotten new copies contrarie to the olde reason is you publish them and prooue the credits of them before we regard them Phi. So we will Theo. And with all you must shew that hee speaketh these wordes to the Sacrament otherwise they conclude nothing for you no more than Origens words did in the like case when he taught men to say them to Christ at the sacred communion Phi. That is your euasion for both Origen and S. Chrysostome sayde it to the Sacrament Theo. That is your intrusion for neither Origen nor Chrysostom hath any such reference Phi. See the bookes Theo. Neuer appeale to the sight of the bookes but produce the wordes This is your cunning in your Rhemish Testament to bid vs often See the fathers and so the rest but wee haue seene them where you come in thickest with them and there finde nothing for your false and erroneous fansies And therefore either alleage their woordes when you vse their names or say you sawe them not wee lyst not at your bidding to goe seeke for oysters in the Ocean Philand You feare to bee confounded by them and that is the cause you will not See them Theoph. They bee not our but your allegations and did they make for you wee should soone haue tidings of you mary nowe their woordes comming short of your assertions to beare out the matter you send the reader to the names and workes of many Fathers where hee must picke out what hee can at his fingers endes and in the meane time not bee able to charge you with corrupting them since you bid him See them but tolde him not what hee shoulde finde in them This is a way to quote what authorities you list bee they neuer so impertinent and yet to amaze the simple with the number and wearie the learned with not expressing what wordes you take hold of and what they seeke for which in questions of fayth were very needefull Phi. They say wee tell you auoyde it how you can Theo. They say no such thing and though Origen as you haue hearde bee farre enough from it yet Chrysostom in the place which you cite is farther off I meane from directing his prayers to the sacrament Making his supplications to God after consecration hee sayth Ipse Domine caelitus respice ad seruos tuos inclinantes tibi capita sua Thou Lorde looke from heauen on thy seruants that bowe their neckes vnto thee And againe Attende Domine Iesu Christe Deus noster de sancto habitaculo tuo de throno gloriae regni tui veni ad sanctificandum nos qui in excelsis vna cum patre sedes hic nobiscum inuisibiliter ades Behold Lorde Iesu Christ our God FROM thy holy habitation and FROM the throne of the glory of thy kingdome and come to sanctifie vs who sittest in the heauens with thy father and art here with vs inuisibly Hee desireth the sonne of God to beholde his seruantes from heauen not from the sacrament and from thence hee looketh for sanctification not from the patent or Chalice Phi. Hee sayth that Christ is also present with vs
of this this is my blood and as for the men of your side they run all to this issue that the sixt of Iohn not only treateth of the sacrament but also strongly concludeth your reall presence and externall eating of Christs flesh with bodily partes as with teeth throte and such like in so much that if you goe that way which you were about you goe alone Your friende Master Harding with a present courage as his manner is saith We can not finde where our Lord perfourmed the promise which he made in the first chapter of Iohn the breade which I will giue is my fleshe which I will giue for the life of the world but only in his last supper Steuen Gardiner his Master vttered euen the very same wordes before him Promisit Dominus se daturum nobis in pane carnem suam dicens panis quâ—m ego dabo caro mea est quam ego dabo pro mundi vita Sed quod promisit Christus noÌ„ legimus cum praestitisse nisi in coena The Lord promised that he would giue vs his flesh in bread when he said the bread that I will giue is my flesh which I will giue for the life of the world But that which Christ promised wee doe not read that he perfourmed except it were in the Supper And though they both ouerlash when they say he performed it only in the supper yet in this you may not vary froÌ„ them that he performed that promise of his verified that doctrine of his in the supper For so the fathers said before them as I haue proued and so your late Testament vpon the sixt of S. Iohn saith of al their side The catholikes teach these wordes to be spoken of the sacrament Phi. We do so The. Then what exposition the learned ancient fathers made of Christs words in the 6. of Iohn the same they inteÌ„ded referred to the words of the supper But the words of christ teaching vs in the 6. of Iohn that we must eate his flesh drinke his blood before we can haue my life in vs are by the coÌ„mon consent of all the fathers Allegoricall mysticall figuratiue ergo the figuratiue interpretatioÌ„ of Christs words in the supper is catholike Phi. Think you we are so foolish as to beleeu that the fathers were the autors of your figures Th. Chuse whether you wil beleeue vs or no we speak no more thaÌ„ we mean to proue Clemens Alexan. The Lord in the gospel of Iohn when he said eate ye my flesh drink ye my blood he called that by an alegory meat drink which is euideÌ„tly meÌ„t of our faith his promise Tertul. He pronounced his flesh to be that heaueÌ„ly bread vrging theÌ„ al along that dicourse with an allegory of needefull foodes to remember their fathers that preferred the bread and flesh of Egypt before the diuine vocation Origen Our Lord and Sauiour saith except you eate my flesh and drinke my blood you shall not haue life in you My flesh is truely meate my blood is truly drinke He that can no skill of these things may perhaps turn his eare from them as they did which said how can he giue vs his flesh to eat who can heare it they departed froÌ„ him But you if you be the children of the church if you acquainted with mysteries Sacraments of the Gospell acknowledge the thinges that wee say they be the Lords Acknowlege that there be figures in the diuine books therefore examine theÌ„ as spirituall men not as carnall vnderstand what is said If you conster these thinges as carnall men they hurt you they doe not nourish you Chrysostom The words that I speak to you are spirite that is spirituall hauing nothing that is carnall in them If a man should carnally take them he should gaine nothing What is carnally to vnderstand theÌ„ Simply as they be spoken neither to seek any farther For the things that we see must not so be iudged of but all mysteries Sacraments must be considered with the inward eyes that is spiritually Phi. Spiritually we grant we must vnderstand them but not figuratiuely Theo. What is spiritually but figuratiuely Eating and drinking are corporall actions not spirituall and properly perfourmed with the partes of our bodies not with the powers of our soules Since then by the constant confession of all the fathers the Lord throughout this chapter did not refer eating drinking to the bodies of his Disciples but vnto their soules and ment their faith not their teeth it is apparant that the wordes of our Sauiour are allegoricall and figuratiue I meane translated and deriued by an allegorie from the body to the mind from chamming to beleeuing from swallowing to remembring to be short from the flesh of his Disciples to their spirites and in that respect called spirituall The manner of eating there specified is spirituall the wordes there vsed are mysticall to wit not literall but allegoricall and so the Fathers mainly teach Basil Tast see how sweete the Lord is We haue often marked that the powers of the soul are called by the same names by which the members of the body are Because then our Lord is the true bread his flesh is meate indeede it must be that the sweetnes of that delicious bread be felt of vs by meanes of spirituall tast There is a certaine mouth of the minde and â—oule within man which is nourished by the word of life the bread I mean which came from heauen Origen To euery part or power of the soule Christ becommeth euerything Therefore he is called the true light that the eyes of the soule may haue wherewith to be lightned therfore the word that the eares of the soule may haue what to heare therefore the bread of life that the tast of the soule may haue what to relesse Tertullian The wordes that I haue spoken to you be spirit and life Making his word to quicken by reason his word is spirite and life hee called the same word his flesh because the word was made flesh and so for the procuring of life was to bee desired yea TO BE DEVOVRED WITH HEARING CHEWED WITH VNDERSTANDING AND DIGESTED WITH BELEEVING Cyprian The master of this ordinance and feast saide that except we did eate his flesh and drinke his blood we should haue no life in vs directing vs with a spirituall instruction and opening our wittes for the conceiuing of so great a matter thereby to let vs vnderstaÌ„d that our abiding in him is eating our drinking is as it were an incorporating with him in that mutual seruices are yeelded wils ioyned and affections vnited The eating therefore of this flesh is a certaine coueting and desiring to abide in him Athanasius Therefore doth he mention his ascending into heauen to pull from them their corporall cogitations and thinking
more can it worke this that they shal be the same they were yet be changed into an other thing And to shew vs an example how a thing may be that it was yet be changed he forthwith addeth Tu ipse eras sed era◠vetus creatura posteae quam consecratu◠es noua creatura esse caepisti Vis scire quam nouae creatura Omnis inquit in Christo nouae creatura Accip◠ergo quemadinodū sermo Christi creaturam omnem mutare consueuerit mutat quando vult instituta naturae Thou thy selfe wast but thou wast an oulde creature after when thou wast Baptised thou begannest to be a new creature Wilt thou know how true it is that thou art a new creature Euery one saith the Apostle is in Christ a new creature Learn then how the word of Christ is accustomed to chaunge euery creature and when he will he altereth the course of nature ◠keeping the same similitude of Baptisme for the explication of himselfe that the rest do thereby declaring he meaneth nothing lesse than that the matter and substance of the bread and wine should be changed For he that is baptised suffereth no materiall substantiall nor corporall chaunge though hee bee borne a fresh and putte on Christ and euen so the sacred elements are turned into the fleshe of our Sauiour without abolishing their former nature or substance Phi. If these places of S. Cyprian and S. Ambrose conclude not for vs certainly they conclude nothing against vs and therefore you cannot refell our assertion by them Theo. I doe not I shew the places which you take most hold of haue no such sequel as you surmise so your transubstantiation is your late and priuate imagination without all antiquite Phi. Call you that late or priuate which hath beene the generall and constant confession of all Christendome for these fifteene hundereth yeres Theo. It doth you good to crake though there be neither trueth nor sense in that you say Hath al christendom for these fifteene hundereth yeres confessed the substance of bread and wine at the Lords table to be changed into the reall natural body bloud of Christ Phi. It hath Theo. How shal we know that Phi. You may find it in their writings Theo. How chanceth then you can not shew one that for 800 yeares made that confession Phi. We can Theo. You do not as yet Phi. Yeas we haue done it S. Augustine told you plainly the substance of breade and wine did not remaine but only the qualities and venerable Bede said there was the shew but not the substance of bread Be not these direct and faire proofes Theo. Fairely forged they be but otherwise the writers themselues were neuer of that opinion Phi. I haue proued by S. Chrysostome and S. Cyril that it is no bread Theo. No bare nor common bread as our sense doth iudge but yet the nature of bread still remaineth though endued with a more diuine and mightie grace Phi. The bread is chaunged as S. Cyprian and S. Ambrose teache Theo. Not by loosing that it had but by annexing that it had not Phi. It is conuerted into the substance of Christ. Theo. But by no materal nor corporall chaunge of the former substance Phi. This is your deluding of fathers The. That is your abusing of them Phi. You recal their wordes to your liking Theo. And you inforce thē against their meaning Phi. Who shall iudge of that Theo. Not you Phi. Nor you Theo. Let their owne mouthes be trusted Phi. I am well contented Theo. Then are you condemned For where their wordes beare our exposition as wel as yours you vrge a corporal and substantial change on their speaches in euery place which they in plaine wordes protest to be no part of their faith Phi. Where find you that protestation Theo. Is your memorie so short that I must now make a new repetition Phi. You went about to prooue that the substance of bread remained The. And that which I professed I performed you may turne back view the words The substance of bread doth not cease to be the signes remaine in their former substance As touching the substances of the creatures they are the same after Consecration that they were before And that was Cyprians meaning when he said Corporalis substantiae retinens speciem retaining their kind of corporall substance as also this substantiall bread This is warrant sufficient in any Christian mans iudgement for vs so to interpret the fathers words as we do not abolish the substance of bread which they confesse remaineth Phi. Had that beene their doctrine would their after-commers thinke you haue so soone swarued from their faith Theo. They did not That verie confession that the substance of bread remained after consecration dured almost a thousand yeares in most parts of the West Church and namely in this realme Omit Bertram that liued 830. after Christ whose booke is extant purposely and largely treating of this matter Walafridus an other of that time giueth flat euidence against your chaunging of substances in the sacrament when hee saith In caena quam ante traditionem suam vltimam cum Discipulis Christus habuit post Paschae veteris solemnia corporis sanguinis sui sacramenta in panis vini substantia eisdem Discipulis tradidit In the supper which Christ had with his Disciples last before hee was betraied after the solemnities of the olde Passeouer he deliuered to the same disciples the sacraments of his bodie and blood in the substance of bread and wine And so doeth Druthmarus reporting our Sauiours act at his last supper in these words Transferens spiritualiter panem in corpus suum vinum in sanguinem Christ chaunging the bread into his bodie and the wine into his bloode spirituallie And so Paschasius though you haue here there enterlaced that book to help your selues and printed it vnder the name of Rabanus as well as of Paschasius Panis confirmat cor hominis vinum letificat c. propter quod in eadem substantia iure celebratur hoc mysterium salutis Bread confirmeth and wine cheereth the hart c. wherefore in that substance is this mysterie of our saluation worthily celebrated Waleramus Bishop of Medburg a thousand yeares after Christ continued the same doctrine though some Italians then beganne to fortifie their new conceits of shewes without substance His wordes are Materiae vel substantia Sacrificij non simpla est sicut nec pontifex solius diuinae vel-humanae solius substantiae est Est ergo tam in Pontifice quā in sacrificio diuina substātia est terrena Terrena in vtroque est illud quod corporaliter vel localiter videri potest diuina in vtroque verbum inuisibile quod in principio erat Deus apud Deum The matter or substance of the sacrifice is not single as also the high priest
The faith of our fathers is not alwaies trueth 537 God forbiddeth vs to follow the steppes of our fathers 538 The godly confessed their fathers did erre 539 All humane lawes barres giue place to God 540 The prince might make lawes for trueth maugre the Pope 541 Princes haue setled religion without Councels 542 Christian religion receiued vpon the direction of a lay man 543 Trueth authorised the Apostles against Priests Princes 544 Railing on Princes is a capitall crime 545 The contents of the fourth part No point of Poperie Catholike 546. What is truely CATHOLIKE 547 The worshipping of Images is not Catholike 547 The west Church against the worshipping of Images 548 Corruption to help the credite of the second Nicen councell 549 The worshipping of Images detested in the Church of Christ as Heresie 550 The â—mage of God made with hands may not be worshipped 552 The Iewes Gentiles did erect their Images vnto God 553 The heathen adored their stocks as the Images of God 554 The Image of man set vp vnto God is an Idoll 556 The wodden Image of Christ may not be worshipped 557 The honour done to a wodden Image is not done to Christ. 559 Adoration of Images no Apostolick tradition 562 S. Basill forged to make for adoration of Images 563 The shamefull forgeries and falsities of the second Nicene councell 564 Both Scriptures and fathers wickedly abused by the second Nicene Councâ—l 565 The second Nicene Councel conuincing it selfe of forgerie 566 What an Idole is 567 A wrong seruice of God is Idolatrie 568 The Church of Rome giueth diuine honour vnto Images 569 Christs honour may not be giuen to Images 570 The hauing of Images is not Catholike 572 Athanasius palpablie forged in the second Nicene Councell 574 The Church next to the Apostles reiected Images 574 Images came first from Heathens vnto Christians 575 Images reiected by godly Bishops 576. No corporall submission may be giuen to Images 577 The Nicene Bishops play the sophists in decreeing adoration vnto Images 577 The wodden crosse of Christ may not be adored 578 Not one word in scripture for adoration of Images 580 No point of faith may be built on traditions 581 No point of faith beleeued without Scripture 582 Baptizing of Infants is a consequent of the Scriptures 583 It may be a tradition yet grounded on the Scriptures 584 Baptisme of InfaÌ„ts prooued needfull by the Scriptures 585 Rebaptization repugnant to the Scriptures by S. Augustines iudgement 588 The perpetuall virginitie of Marie the Mother of Christ. 589 The Godhead of the holy ghost expressed in the Scriptures 590 His proceeding from the father and the sonne confirmed by the Scriptures 592 Expresse scripture is the sense and not the syllables 593 Fathers wrested to speake against the scriptures 594 The Popish faith is their owne traditioÌ„ against the scriptures 597 Their adoration of images is a late and wicked inuenâ—ion of their schooles 598 Images adored in the Church of Rome with diuine honour 600 Images reiected by Catholike Bishops 601 S. Austen condemneth Images as vnprofitable signes 602 Custome without trueth is but the antiquitie of error 603 Praier in an vnknowen toung prohibited by Saint Paul in Gods name 604 S. Paul speaketh of vnknoweÌ„ touÌ„gs 606 An vnknowen toung cannot edifie 607 Diuine seruice in a knowen toung cannot choose but edifie 608 S. Paul speaketh of three learned toungs as wel as of others 610 S. Paul speaketh of the Hebrew Greeke and Latine as well as of other tongues 611 S. Pauls wordes comprise both Church seruice sermons 612 Saint Paul 1. Cor. 14. speaketh of Church seruice 613 The Church vnder the Apostles had no set order of diuine seruice 614 The Church vnder the Apostles did sing blesse and pray by the gyft of the spirite 615 The Apostle had no certaine praiers or seruice 616 The Iesuits halting reasons that S. Paul did not speak of the church Seruice 616 S. Paul to the Corinthians speaketh of Church seruice 620 No man may say AMEN to that he vnderstandeth not 624 Necessary to vnderstand our praiers 625 The primatiue Church had neuer her praiers and seruice in an vnknowen tongue 627 The latine seruice was vnderstood in the Countries where it was 629 Alleluia is vsed in all tongues aswell barbarous as others 630 The Britans had no latine seruice 632 Alleluia soung at the plough 632 The Iesuits manner of alleaging impertiment authorities 633 Bede doth not say that the people of this Realme had the latine seruice in his time 634 The prayers of the primatiue Church were common to all the people 636 The Masse book proueth that the people should vnderstand the Priest 639 The Priest needeth no speach in his praiers but to edifie the hearers 640 Praier is as acceptable to God in a barbarous as in a learned touÌ„g 642 Seruice in an vnknowen tongue is no custome of the vniuersall Church 643 The primatiue church had her seruice in such tongues as the people vnderstood 644 The primatiue church allowed praiers in barbarous tounges Whether side commeth nearest to christs institution 650 S. Paul by the Lords supper meaneth the sacrament 651 The name Masse whence it first came 655 We doe not swarue from christes institution 657 Christ did blesse with the mouth and not with the finger 658 Blessing in the scriptures applied to diuerse and sundrie thinges 659 To doe any thing vpon or ouer the bread is not needefull 660 The rehearsall of christs wordes maketh a sacrament 661 We shew our purpose at the Lords table by our words and deedes 662 The worde beleeued maketh the Sacrament 664 Vnlâ—uened bread is not of the substance of the Sacrament 664 Water is no part of Christs institution 663. 670 Water is not necessarie in the Lordes cup euen by the confession of their own schooles 668 No water mingled whiles the Apostles liued 672 The Masse an open profanation of Christs institution 673 Priuate Masse euerieth all that christ did or said at his last Supper 674 Christ did not sacrifice himselfe at his last supper 676 The Primatiue church had no priuate Masse 678 The Lords supper ought to be coÌ„mon 679 The Lords cup was deliuered to the people as well as the bread 679 Christs precept for the cup extendeth as well to the people as to the Priest 680 In the primatiue church the lords cup was common to all 682 The causes for which the church of Rome changed christs institution 683 The auncient church of Rome very vehement against half communions 684 Forbearing the Lords cuppe condemned in laymen as sacrilege 685 Sacrilege in the Priest can be no religion in the people 686 The Iesuits proofes for their sacrifice 687 How the fathers call the Lordes supper a sacrifice 688 Their own Masse booke contradicteth their sacrifice 690 The Lords death is the sacrfice of the Lords supper 691 A memoriall of christs passion is our daily sacrifice 692 The elder sort of Schoolemen knew not their
good both in doctrine discipline a 1. Sam. 15. b 2. Sam. 22. c Esai 7. d Esai 9. e 1. Cor. 11. f Chrysost. in ca. 4. ad Philip. homil 13. g Idem homil 1. ad Papil Antioch Head of the Church belongeth properly to Christ. Praefat. 7. Centuriae Princes may not be deuisers of new religions We may by our oth serue God not men if their lawes dissent from his We be subiect to Princes in that we must suffer not in that we must obay whatsoeuer they coÌ„maund Apol. c. 4. sect 6. The Iesuites as bold with the ParliameÌ„t as they bee with the Prince Apol. cap. 4. sect 10. God will not be tied to the forme of humane iudgements The Church planted without any iudicial processe Apol. cap. 4. a sect 19. b sect 12. c sect 19. Christ wil not be subiect to the voices of men He hath authority enough that hath God on his side a Ios. 24. b 3. Kings 19. c 3. Kings 22. d Ierem. 23. e Amos. 7. f Mat. 3. g Acts. 5. h 6. i 23. The wicked alwaies asked the godly for their authority Mat. 21. Ioh. 1. Ioh. 1. Acts. 4. He that preacheth the same doctrine which the Apostles did hath the same coÌ„missioÌ„ which they had One man preaching trueth hath warrant enough against the whole worlde Tertul. de virg velandis The whole world drowned for resisting the preaching of one man Whether side hath trueth must be the question the rest is superfluous quareling Apol. cap. 4. sect 21. God must be obaied when he coÌ„maundeth whosoeuer dissent The Iesuites cal it a disorder to obey God before the Bishops Apol. cap. 4. sect 6. The Prince and the Parliament tooke not vpon theÌ„ the decision but the permission protection of trueth Queene Mary by ParliameÌ„t receiued the Pope why might not Queene Elizabeth doe as much for Christ We be bound to the faith of Christ not of our fathers Deut. 32. They be gone from the faith of their first fathers and egerly follow the blindnesse of their later fathers God hath not referred vs froÌ„ his word to our fathers Ezech. 20. Psal. 78. Psal. 95. Zach. 1. Ierem. 11. Ibidem vers 9. Our fathers may erre though his elect can not 2. Tim. 2. Mat. 24. Mark 13. Mat. 24. 2. Thes. 2. Reueâ— 13. All shall erre sauing the elect The elect cannot be discerned of men Mat. 7. To follow the greatest number is most dangerous Mat. 22. Our Fathers sinned and rebelled against God Psal. 106. Dan. 9. 2. Chron. 29. Mat. 3. Acts. 7. Our fathers cannot preâ—udice the trueth of God Luke 16. A parliament taking part with trueth hath the warrant of God the Magistrate Lay men may make their choise what faith they will professe The Prince is authorized from God to execute his commaundement The Iesuites presume that al is theâ—â—s The Prince may commaund for trueth though the bishops would say no. The Iesuites haue neither Gods law nor mans to make that which the Prince and the Parliament did to be voide for lacke of the Bishops assents The Kings of Iudah did coÌ„maund for trueth without Councels 2. Chron. 14. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. 2. Chron. 29. 4. Kings 22. Christian Princes may doe the like ConstaÌ„tine authorized Christian religion without any Councel Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 2. Iustinian had no Councell for the making of his constitutions But 6. general Councels in 790. yeres Sâ—c lib. 5. ca. 10. Theodosius made his own choise what religion he would establish when the second general councell could not get him to receiue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius did win him to it Theod. lib. 5. cap. 16. Realmes haue bin Christened vpon the perswasions of Lay men weâ—men India conuerted by Merchants * Ruffin l. 1. ca. 9 * And neuer asked the Priestes leaue so to doe * Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 19. Iberia coÌ„uerted by a woman Ruffin lib. 1. cap. 10. The Iesuites would haue beene eloqueÌ„t against this King that yeelded his Realme to Christ at the direction of a seeâ—â—e wenche Any man may serue Christ whosoeuer say nay Many Countries receiued the faith before they knew what the Church â—â—nt Act. 5. If trueth were â—â—ufficient â—â—â—charge for fishermen to withstand both Priests and Princes much more may Princes vpon that warrant neglect the consent of their own subiects though they be Priests Iohn 7. Railing on Princes is prohibited by the Law of God Exod. 21. Leuit. 20. Exod. 22. Eccle. 10. 3. Kings 2. Dauid iudged Shimei worthie to die for railing on him Vincentius Lirinens aduers haeres How Vincentius defineth Catholikes * VinceÌ„s aduers. haeres * Vincent IbideÌ„ Ibidem Quod semper vbique ab omnibus creditum est Worshipping of Images is against the Scriptures It hath not been beleeued at all times Neither in all places nor of all persons * Sigebert in anno 755. Continuationes Bedae anno 792. The Church of England against Images The churches of Fraunce Italie Germanie condeÌ„ned the second councell of Nice Regino lib. 2. anno 794. Hinâ—mar Remens contra Hincmar Iandunensem epist. cap. 20. The Councel of Nice the second refuted by a generall Synode of Germanie A whole book written in the refutation of the 2. Nicene Councell by Charles and his Bishops The Monkes haue razed our Nice and put in Constantinople Vrspergens in anno 793. That Councel was assembled at Nice and not at Constantinople * Tomo Concil 3. admonit Surij ad lector de Synod Francof â—ol 226. * Augu. Steuch de Donat. Constant lib. 2. numero 60. * Adon. aetase 6. Auent lib. 4. saith Scitae Graecoâ—um de adorandis Imaginibus rescissa sunt Their Monks and Friers being worshipers of Imageâ— themselues would not beleeue that the 2. Nicen CouÌ„cel was condemned for decreeing Images to bâ— worshipped The booke extaÌ„t agreeth with this report of Hincmarus The west Church 800. yeares after Christ suffred stories to be painted and carued in the Church but not to be worshipped as the seconde Councell of Nice concluded The Grecians were not so brutish as to decree diuine honour to stockes The west Church refused to giue any externall honor to images Greg. lib. 7. epist. 109. Stories painted in the Church but no picture worshipped * Sinne to worâ—hip pictures Gregor lib. 9 epist. 9. The scriptures prohibite the worâ—hipping of pictures Ambros. de obiâ—â—â— Theodos. Error wickednes to worship the Crosse that Christ died on Aug. de moribus ecclesiae Catholicae lib. â— cap. 34. Bowing and burning incense to the Image of Christ obiected to heretikâ— as Idolatrie August de haeresib haeres 7. Epipha in 80. haeres anacephâ— Epipha lib. 1. â—om 2. haeres 27. Iren. li. 1. ca. 24. The worshiping of Christs Image is idolatrie Exod. 20. Deut. 5. * Ephes. 5. * Phil 3. Bodily or ghostly honor giuen to any thing which God prohibiteth is Idolatrie Exod. 20. God prohibiteth the worshipping of
his own Image Deut. 4. Esai 40. Ibidem Moses Esay referre the secoÌ„d precept to any Image made with hands and erected vnto God The later part of the 2. precept forbidâ—th to worship that which the first did forbid to make Esa. 42. 1. Cor. â— An Image made by man vnto God is but a dishonour vnto God Deut. 27. Esa. 40. Euery Image erected vnto God is an Idol Deut. 27. Sapient 14. Esa. 44. The Idolatrous Iewes pretended to worship the Image of God when they set vp the calfe * Exod. 32. vers â— * Iudic. 17. Iudic. 2. Baal was set vp for the Image of god * Ose. 2. * Esa. 40.46 Ambr. in Psal. 118. sermo 10. Origen contra Celsum lib. 7. The Heathen did not take their Images for Goddes Lactant. de fals religione lib. 2. cap. 20. Clemen recognitio ad Iac. lib. 5. Aug. in Psal. 113. concione 2. Marke well this shiâ—â— and tel me what the Papistes lacke of it Rom. 1 It is wickeder Idolatrie to worship an Image than to worship a creature A greater sin for those that know God to set vp an Image vnto him than for those that knew him not The figure of a man set vp vnto God is an Idole as well as the figure of a beast Deut. 4. Rom. 1. * Psal. 115. Esa. 44. An horrible picture of the Trinitie with three faces in the popish praier bookes * Horae Mariae Impressae per Iohan. le Prest impens Rob. Valenâ— 1555. Nicen. Synod 2. actione 2. Sapien. 14. * You doe defend them in your Rhemish Testament fol. 345. * Esa. 44. Deut. 27. The artificiall figure of Christs humane flesh may not be worshipped Lactant. de fals religio lib. 2. cap. 2. * Lactant. IbideÌ„ * Lactant. li. 2. cap. 19. Christ must be worshipped with al humilitie but not his Image because that is not Christ. Earthly similitudes are al the proofes that Papists haue for adoration of Images The Seates seales of princes make nothing for adoratâ—on of Images An Image can teach vs nothing of that we should beholde in Christ. Christ hath left better safer meanes to remember him than by an Image which papists leaue preferre their own deuises before his * 1. Cor. 10. * Colos. 3. * Ephes. 5. By what meanes and waies the holy Ghost occasioneth vs to remember the sonne of God He hath a dull heart that remeÌ„breth not Christ till he see an Image What commodities the Papists say they sucke out of Images All these fathers are wrested by papists from their right meaning 2. Thes. 2. The Papists greedily embrace other mens forgeries many of their own for adoration of Images Nice Concil 2. act 6. Ibidem Ibidem Ambros. in Psal. 118 Concio 2. Great differeÌ„ce between the seruices Images of God men The Similitude of honoring the original by the Image answered No Creature nor Image capable of Christs honor because it is diuine * Lib. de falsa religio cap. 2. The Fathers make Christ the Image of God and not a peece of wood to bee the Imgae of Christ. If an Image must haue Christs honor ergo it must be God Mar. 4. Luke 4. Images may haue no diuine honor Christ will hauâ— no ciuill salutations nor friendly greetings In Psal. 118. sermo 10. Christ acknowledgeth the poore to bee his Image and yet it were wickednes to worshippe them Men are the liuing Images of christ made by the handes of GOD himselfe The Image which is made for Christ is no more like him than it is to any other of the saintes or wicked Making and worshiping of Images falâ—ly fathered on the Apostles Damasc. lib. 4. cap. 17. Nicepho lib. 2. cap. 7. A fable of Christ painting his own face Euseb. lib. 1. cap. 13. * Distinâ—t 15. § S. Roâ—ana Of such legeÌ„ds the Church of Rome hath plentie a Damasc. lib. 4. cap. 17. Citatur ab Adriano in epist. sua Nicenâ— Synod 2. act 2. * What shame haue they left that make such places in the fathers names * What shame haue they left that make such places in the fathers names * What shame haue they left that make such places in the fathers names b This place is not found in all S. Basils Epistles yet there are extant of his 180 and many of them not fouer lines a peece so that all were preserued sauing this that was neuer wriâ—â—â—n If that were Adrians Epistle he might soone be deceiued but it seemeth to be rather a late forgerie in AdriaÌ„s name Infinite forgegeries haue beene coÌ„mitted in the fathers names as appeareth at this day in al their works The west Bishops that refuted the 2. Nicene councel al authorities one after an other neuer mentioned this place therefore it hath beene put in since their time * The Epistle hath neither trueth learning reason nor sense * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle The scriptures alleaged in Adrians Epist. * Genes 1. * Genes 2. * Genes 4. * Genes 8. * Genes 28. If the scripturs be not horribly abused let Images on Gods name be adored a Esa. 19. b Psal. 95. c Psal. 25. d Psal. 26. e Psal. 44. f Psal. 4. Children would not thus play with Scriptures The brasen serpent made by Moses * Iohn 3. * Numb 21. * 1. King 18. And broken in peeces by by Ezechias when it was abused * Hebr. 9. The Cherubins not seen much lesse worshipped Tertul. de Idolatria Fathers abused by Adrian as well as scriptures Nicen. Synod 2. act 2. Eight fathers peruerted in this one Eistle The fathers draw similitudes from prophane things and Adrian wresteth them vnto diuine things Hierom made to speake opeÌ„ Impietie No such thing in al Hieroms workes The place of Basill is set amidst these deprauations of Scriptures and fathers The same place otherwise repeated in the same Councell and therefore the first or the last must needes be forged Nicen Synod act 4 ex ep Basil. ad Iulian. Imperator The Apostles did not prohibite the making of Images in speciâ—l wordes because God had done it sufficiently before * Rom. 7. * Rom. 2. * Rom. 1. * 1. Ioh. 5. August quaest super Iudic. li. 7. â—â—p 41. Gedeons Ephod was an Idol though it were not the Image of a false God
Romanes or Grecians * Why these two words were not traÌ„slated into any tongue See Hieron Maâ—cel epist. 137. Alleluia vsed in this land by the Saxons that could no Latine Grego moral in Iob lib. 27. cap. 8. The Britans that could speake no Latine sung the praises of god in what touÌ„g then if not in their own Hieron tom 1. epist. 58. Hierom misconstered by the Iesuites Hieron in 1. Epist. 17 ad Marcel Hierom speaketh of the plough men in Bethleem where Christ was borne It is easie to alleage nine skore fathers in any matter to no purpose God grant it be but ignorance in the Iesuits to cite fathers in this sort The Rhemish Testament 1 Corinth 14. The Latine tongue was common not to all but to such as could meditate the Scriptures in this Lande Beda Histor. Angl. li. 1. ca. 1. Meditation of Scriptures doth not signifie the praiers of the Church If they searched the trueth with fiue tongues then did they read or heare the scriptures in four toungs besides the Latine The Latine tongue was common to those that were learned in those foure Nations Let them take Bede how they wil he maketh nothing for their Latine seruice in the words which they bring The Italian Monks which vnderstood not the SaxoÌ„ toung might haue the Latine seruice in their Abbey but that the people had it in their parish Churches caÌ„not be proued by any place of Bede Hauing Saint Pauls Rule that the people should vnderstand the praiers that are made in the church we neede not search in what tongue eche Nation had their seruicâ— These shifs of the Iesuits being refelled Saint Pauls text is clear for vs. The seruice of the primatiue Church manifestly confirmeth our construction of Saint Paul What order the Apostles tooke for Church seruice as the bookes which they most esteeme doe testifie Constit. Apost lib. 8. cap. 16. The Church seruice diuided between the bishop the whole congregatioÌ„ * Cap. 18. * Cap. 20. The people could not make these answers except they vnderstood the tongue that the Bishop spake in The liturgies of Iames Basil and Chrysostome prescribe like aunswers for the people in the praiers of the Church That which we alleadge out of these liturgies hath the true and vndoubted testimoâ—ies of the Fathers Chrysost. in 2. Cor. in hâ—m 18. Marke the forme of publike praier in Chrysostomâ— time * Can they haue plainer words Basil. hexam homil 4. Men weomeÌ„ children singing and praying in the Church seruice Iustin. Martyr Apol. pro Christianis 2. * Can they haue plaineâ— words Basil. hexam homil 4. Men weomeÌ„ children singing and praying in the Church seruice Iustin. Martyr Apol. pro Christianis 2. * Ibidem * Aug. in Psal. 54. * Ambros. hexam lib. 3. cap. 5. * Leo. sermo 3. de ieiunio 7. mensis The publike praier of the whole people more auaileable with God than the praier of the priesâ— alone * Tertul. in Apologet. * Quasi manu facta Isidor de eccle officiis lib. 1. ca. 10. de lection That al shuldâ— pray sing in the church is a dutie and therefore a necessitie Legum Francie lib. 1. cap. 66. De eccles diuer capitulis Const. 123. * Lyra saith if the people vnderstaÌ„d the priestes praier benediction they be bâ—tâ—er affected to god ward and answere Amen with more deuotioÌ„ 1 Corinth 14 Iustinian applieth S. pauls place to proue that the people should bee edified stirred by the priests words to coÌ„fesse with their mouthes the praise of God in his church The pâ—iaers speaches of their Masse booke at this day proue the people should vnderstand answere the Priest in the chiefest parts of their Church seruice He that speaketh to men that which they cannot vnderstand mocketh and deludeth theÌ„ August de Doct. christia li. 4. cap. 10. 1. Corin. 14. * Ordinarium Missae secuÌ„dum vsum Sarum * Ideo precorvos fratres orate pro me * Orate fratres sorores pro me * Dominus nebiscuÌ„ Oremus * Ordinarium Missae secundiâ— vsum Sarum Sursum corda habemus ad Dominum Et cum spiritu tuo * Sacâ—rd se verâ—ens ad populum tacita voce dicat Orate fratres sorores prome O mockerie to desire the people to pray for him and yet so to speake it that no man shal heare it The Papists haue turned edification into gesticulation It is the people and not God that needeth the Priestes voice in the church praiers * Psal. 27. * Aug. de magiâ—â—ro cap. 1. Speach necessary in respect of the people which if they vnderstand not silence would doe theÌ„ as much good If it be needful for the Priest to speak in the Church seruice it is as needeful for the people to vnderstand what he saith The end of speaking is that others maie vnderstand if therâ—ore that want the first is superfluous August de magistro cap. 1. The Priest at his Masse vttereth euerie word as if the people did vnderstand him and ioyne with him in prayer Oremus Gratias agamus Quaesumus Offerimus Laudamus Benedicamus Adoramus Al toungs are alike to God God no respecter of persons much lesse of toungs Pilates act is not so good a reason for the latine seruice as Caiphas prophesie was for the Popes infallible iudgement and yet either is verie foolish Origen contra Celsum lib. 8. All tongues are fitte for praier The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. S. Augustine rackt by the Iesuites from his right meaning August epist. 118. cap. 5. * The worde should be hodie It is madnes to breake the custome of the vniuersall Church in thinges indifferent The Iesuites defend a new custome against the auncient and generall order of Christs Church are they not mad by S. Augustines rule Lyra. in 1. Cor. 14. Iohan. Eckins in locis communibus The south IndiaÌ„s euer had and yet haue their seruice in their mother tongue * Sigismund liber in rerum Moscouit arum Commentariis cap. de dâ—cimis So haue the Moscouites and Armenians * Petrus Bello de moribus Armeniorum All Africa Asia and the North parts of 〈…〉 â—nd barâ—arous tongues Aeneas Syluius hiâ—â— â—ohem cap. 13. God from heauen decided that the Russians and Morauians should haue their seruice in their natiue tongue though it were barbarous Concil Lateranens sub Innocent 3. ca. 9. * in plerisque partibus Populi diuersar linguaruÌ„ * Secundum diuersitates linguarum Mo tongues vsed in the west Church than the Latine tongue The general vse of the primatiue Church confiâ—meth the seruice in the English tongue All tongues allowed in the primatiue Church for men to make their publike prayers in The Iesuits are so Catholike that they haue not so much as one Father for the greatest points of their religion The walles of the Church were theirs but not the faith of the Church Pilates authoritie is all the holde the