and whether he knewe them to be true He answered that he wrote his booke as he traueiled and that he coulde not we knewe cary a librarie about with him and therefore he was forced to giue credite to his notes We said it was more credible that he brought the saide booke ouer with him readie framed by the common and long conference of him selfe and his fellowe Iesuites at conuenient opportunitie suddenly to be published rather then that he did write it in his trauels hauing so much besides to do being destitute of his librarie as he said which is the vsual maner as we said of you all hūting thereby for popular praise of speedie writing But when howsoeuer you did write your booke said we you haue vsed ouermuch boldnes so cōfidently to publish in print these slaūderous reportes of such men as you haue named being not able to make any proofe of that wherof you accuse them And vpon these such good grounds of yours you doe most vnreasonably and vntruly charge vs all as those that haue rased mangled and spoyled the body of the holy Bible The third testimonie or proofe alleaged against vs by Master Campion in his booke is taken out of the Centuries written by Illiricus and others which booke being giuen into his handes and the like demaunde made as before he would neither reade nor once open the booke neither yet made he any answere thereto knowing that he could make no exception to the print as he did before to Luthers bookes seeing that booke was neuer printed but once And besides where they as Historiographers had only set down the iudgements of S. Hierome Eusebius Epiphanius and of other ancient fathers concerning this Epistle of Saint Iames of Tobias the bookes of Macchabees c he knewe that he could not thereby proue his assertion that they suddenly cut away so many goodly partes of the holy Bible much lesse that we had so done as he doeth in his booke charge vs. For which causes chiefly he would not as much as once open those bookes and for the same cause he woulde not looke vpon Kemnisius whome and vs by him he had likewise falsely charged When Master Campion could not shew these words out of any of those books by him alleaged nor any good matter to proue thē nor vs suddenly to haue rased mangled and spoyled the holy Scriptures as he chargeth vs of desperation in our cause to haue done then did we shewe him that we had not nowe suddenly as he vntruely reported cut off any part or line of the body of the holy Scriptures but made onely a difference betweene those bookes of the Scriptures that be commonly called Canonicall and of all men be taken for vndoubtedly true from those that haue bene long ago suspected of many and are called Apocrypha according as was before set downe by the ancient Doctors of the Church aboue a thousand yeres since more And for the proofe hereof we alleaged the testimonie of Saint Hierome In Catalogo Scriptorum ecclesiasticorum where he thus writes of the Epistle of Saint Iames named by Master Campion The Epistle of Saint Iames is sayd to be published by some other man vnder his name And of the second Epistle of Saint Peter he saith in the same booke that it is denied of many to be his by reason of the difference of the stile To this Master Campion answered that Hierome spake not of his owne iudgement but reported what others sayde of them We answered if Saint Hierome so reported of other mens sayings of those Epistles and did not him selfe gainesay it that it was a manifest token that he did not greatly mislike their sayings And seeing in S. Hieromes time and before those Epistles were doubted of you doe vs great wrong sayd we to charge vs that we haue suddenly cut them off from the body of the Bible who in deede notwithstanding the former doubtes of them gladly receaue and allowe them We alleaged againe S. Hierome In Prologo Galeato et Epistola ad Paulinum where hee sheweth his owne iudgement what bookes of the Scriptures of the olde Testament are to be taken for Canonicall and which haue bene doubted of which Epistles quoth we haue bene written and printed in all Bibles by the space of these thousand yeres and more to warne al readers of that difference of the said Apocrypha from the true Canonicall and to arme them as it were against the errour of confounding the Canonical Scriptures with these Apocrypha for the which cause as it seemeth hee also nameth that Prologue Galeatum as an helmet for defence against that error But nowe sitchence the Tridentine Councill some Popish printers haue left out the sayd Prologue and Epistle of S. Hierome who yet declareth this his iudgement likewise in his Preface to the first booke of Esdras also Sherwin one of Master Campions fellowes answered to these allegations that Hierome did Iudaizare and more was not ◅ayd to these places We also alleadged Eusebius who hauing made rehearsall of those bookes of the newe Testament which be vndoubtedly true nameth also such as were gainesayd and writes thus Quibus vero contradicitur c. those bookes that are gainesayde though they be knowen to many be these The Epistle which is attributed to S. Iames the Epistle of Iude the latter of Peter the second and third of Iohn And the same Eusebius in another place affirmeth plainely the sayd Epistle of S. Iames to be a counterfaite or bastard Epistle To this authoritie they said that it was true that he so said and as we alleadged them and that when he wrote it was lawfull for any man to doubt of those bookes that he called Apocrypha but seeing by the Church that was by the Councill of Carthage now also by the Councill of Trident they were receiued for Canonicall it was blasphemie they said to doubt of the authoritie of those bookes To that was replied that the Synode of Laodicea helde them for Apocrypha Yea said they but that Synode was not generall No more was that of Carthage said we No said they but that of Carthage was after confirmed by a generall Councill in Trullo So was quoth we the Synode of Laodicea which helde them for Apocrypha confirmed also by the same generall Councill in Trullo as there is to be seene But howe doth this agree that not long before you did saye absolutely that S. Iames epistle was written by the same spirit that S. Iohns Gospell was written with and now you ground the credit of S. Iames Epistle and the other vpon these Councils But said we these Councils had no authoritie to make any maner writings Canonical that was not before Canonicall For by the iudgement of S. Augustine in many places of his bookes there are two things requisite to proue any writing Canonicall one is the testimonie of the Church in which the authour liued
when he wrote The other is the continuall contestation of the Churches succeeding To this effect writeth S. Augustine and so be all latter Churches barred from authoritie to make any writings canonicall scripture specially those that haue of olde bene doubted of They may testifie what the olde Churches before them haue done as we nowe doe Hereunto they saide againe that it was blasphemie after those Councils to call those bookes Apocrypha or to doubt of the authoritie of them It is rather most horrible blasphemie said we to make humane writings equall with the Canonicall scriptures as of late your Tridentine Councill hath done and as your Pope being but one man hath made his Decretal epistles then with S. Hierome Eusebius and other ancient godly fathers to call those bookes Apocrypha which they do so call And we said that notwithstanding those Councils Caietanus their Popes Cardinall thought it no blasphemie who in the ende of his expositions vpon the olde testament in very plaine wordes maketh the same difference of the bookes of the scriptures doeth not onely alowe the iudgement of Hierome but addeth further that all writitings yea of bishops of Rome them selues of whome he nameth some must be brought to S. Hieroms rule They vtterly reiected Cardinall Caietanus because as they said he was but one man against all the Church We said you of your side will not be charged with the wordes of others though they be the Popes Cardinals and yet you doe thinke it reason that we should be charged with euery worde that hath slipped from Luther Nay you charge him and vs by him with that which you can neuer proue that he did write or speake Hart said further that Caietanus was a good scholemā and traueled in that course with commendation but when hee began to become an expositor of the scriptures said he then he lost his grace and credit We answered if they thought it reason to charge vs with all the sayings of Luther or of any other we might by good and great reason charge them with the sayings of so great learned a Cardinall of Rome as Caietanus was Last of all wee came to the place of S. Augustine in his second booke De doctrina Christiana Which Campion and his fellowes gladly receiued because they said it made for them and not for vs. For saide they S. Augustine rehearseth those bookes for Canonicall scriptures which you call Apocrypha To this wee answered that they shoulde rather charge Saint Hierome and Eusebius and other auncient fathers who doe call them Apocrypha And S. Augustine in that place rehearsing the order of the bookes of scriptures though said we he differ somwhat from Eusebius and S. Hierome in shewe of wordes yet hee doeth in deede agree with them For where they deuide the bookes of the scriptures into three sorts that is Canonicall Apocrypha and feigned or vntrue Augustine deuideth them into Canonicall and Apocrypha onely and then he deuideth the Canonicall bookes into two sortes that is those that be certainely true which we with S. Hierome and Eusebius do call properly Canonicall and those that haue bene doubted of which Eusebius and S. Hierome do call Apocrypha And S. Augustine nameth those that be vtterly vntrue Apocrypha which Eusebius calleth doubtfull feigned and forged And this may be gathered out of Augustine him selfe in diuers places whereof we haue noted some And albeit Augustine calleth those bookes Canonicall yet he giueth not the like authoritie to them as namely to the Maccabees and to the other of that sort as he doeth to those that be Christes the Lords witnesses as he nameth them which be these that are named properly Canonicall Here would they not admit in any wise that the worde Canonicall was aequiuocum or of diuers significations in diuers places but that wheresoeuer that worde was founde it brought all bookes so called vnder one kinde Much time was spent here about and the matter was much argued on Master Campion and his fellowes part At the last Master Campion was desired by vs to reade the chapter in that Canon law beginning In Canonicis which Gratian takes out of this place of Augustine and first that hee would reade the rubrick which he seemed both to do And Pound one of his companions sitting by who with his importunitie impertinent speaches had often interrupted the course of the conference saide Father Campion let them reade their places them selues Yet at the length Master Campion read it and it is thus Inter Canonicas scripturas Decretales Epistolae connumerantur which after much desiring he englished also The decretall Epistles are numbred together among the Canonicall Scriptures Whereupon one of vs saide you charge vs with blasphemie for naming those bookes Apocrypha which Saint Hierome Eusebius and other ancient holy fathers doe so name but here may you see most horrible blasphemie in deede in the Canonical lawe of your Pope which matcheth his Decretall Epistles that is meere fables with the Maiestie of the Canonicall Scriptures as he doeth in this distinction and sundry other places whereby you may see to what point this boldnesse of making mens writings Canonicall Scriptures is come Then saide we to M. Campion do you hold that Popes decrees for Canonical scriptures as you do the bookes of Moyses and the Prophets He answered no and graunted then that the worde Canonicall was aequinocum or of diuers significations which before they all did so constantly denie Whereupon we sayde that we had some good hope of Master Campion for that he blushed And we sayde further that Cardinall Caietanus in the place before alleadged sayeth expressely that S. Augustine placed those books in the Canon of maners but not in the Canon of doctrine whereby he plainely declareth that the word Canonicall is aequiuocum After this he was desired to reade the text of that Chapter and there he founde and could not denie but that the place of Augustine was vntruely reported by Gratian and by manifest corruption drawē altogether from the meaning of Augustine For where S. Augustine saith that those Scriptures are to be taken for Canonicall which the most or greatest part of Christian Churches so take among the which those Churches be which deserued to haue Apostolique Seas and to receiue Epistles from the Apostles these wordes of S. Augustine are chaunged and in the place of the Apostolique Seas is put the Apostolique Sea meaning the Church of Rome and those Churches which deserued to receaue Epistles from the said Church of Rome which is cleane contrary to S. Augustines wordes and meaning Both often before and here specially Master Campion and his fellowes seemed to be desirous to dispute vpon some pointes of religion rather then to continue in this examination of his booke which we said we woulde not at afternoone refuse but the forenoone qd we is so farre spēt that we must at this time make
and brought vp in this realme in schooles places where good learning hath bene taught so that he might haue bene a good instrument in this common wealth and Gods Church but contrary to his bringing vp his friendes expectation hope that this Church might haue conceaued of him like an vnnaturall man to his countrey degenerated from an English man an Apostata in religion a fugitiue from this realme vnloyal to his Prince hath not onely fled to the man of Rome an aduersarie to Christ and his doctrine but hath gotten a courage from that Romaniste with certaine other his sectaries to come into this realme againe to vndermine the Gospell of Christ to seduce Gods people and withdrawe her Maiesties lawfull subiectes to disobedience and sedition and hath bene disguised in Ruffians apparel in diuers places of this realme to plant secretely that blasphemous Masse and other Poperie whereunto it appeareth hee hath allured many vnstable fooles and in Yorkeshire where his Sectaries disciples are apprehended iustly imprisoned nowe they rage as I heare say and curse him that euer he came there So ye see what maner of mā we are to talke withal What good we shall do with him the Lord doeth knowe other maner of men then we are and of another calling were more meete to talke with him then we notwithstanding we will doe our best that we can God giue it good effect As for you Campion I heare say that you vse to scoffe and iest at such as come to conferre with you we come not for that purpose it is not our profession yet I giue you warning Si quam maledicendo coeperis voluptatem eam malè audiendo amittes Now to the question which is that the scriptures containe all things sufficient to saluation against the assertion of your booke For you say that the Lutherans haue cut off many bookes from the body of the new Testament and so diuided them from the Canonicall scripture which is not true Camp Yes that they haue and therein they haue done euill Walker Here Master Walker reade the words out of Campions challenge Campion Luther hath cut off the Epistle of Iames the second epistle of Iohn Iude and the seconde of Peter Luther hath found fault with these and improued them in his prefaces vpon those Epistles Walker Luther hath not doubted of them himselfe but shewed that others haue doubted of them Campion It is one thing to doubt an other thing to cut off Bring me the bookes and I will shewe that he hath cut them off Walker That can not bee shewed if the bookes were here For the Doctors doe not agree concerning these bookes that are of the Canon Some recite more some recite lesse as Origen Hierome and others and yet it were hard to say that they cut off any of the Canonicall bookes They doe as Luther may shewe what bookes were doubted of in their time and yet no whitte preiudice the bookes of the Canonicall Scripture Campion Well I say whatsoeuer they might doe then yet now seeing the Church hath otherwise determined it is blasphemie for any to doubt of them The Lutherans doe doubt of them bring me the bookes and I will shewe where Luther doubteth and therefore blasphemeth because the Church hath taken away the doubt videlicet the third Councill of Carthage and that of Laodicea Walker I do not professe my selfe a Lutheran but a Christian But if olde fathers and olde Councils haue not receiued these bookes for Canonical and bookes to ground our faith vpon then can not new men nor the Tridentine Council being ful of errors make thē Canonicall August de doct Christ. lib. 2. ca. 8. leaueth out Baruch the two last bookes of Esdras Hieronymus praes in li. Reg. Hūc prologū galeatū principiū vocat He saith Igitur Sapientia quae vulgo Salomonis inscribitur Iesu filij Syrach liber Iudith Tobias pastor nō sunt in Canone Macchabaeorū primū librū Hebraicū reperi secūdus Graecus est quod ex ipsa phrafi probari potest Eusebius also ecclesi hist. lib. 6. cap. 18. fol. 368. sequentibus omittit tertiū quartū Esdrae Tobiae Iudith Baruch Sapiētia Ecclesiastici Machabaeorum libros Paulo post De eo inquit qui est apud Hebraeos nonnulli dubitauerunt c. Sed ego dico ficut mihi à maioribus traditum est quia manifestissimè Pauli est Ibi de secunda Petri Epistola à nōnullis dubitatur De duabus vltimis Iohannis Epistolis apud quosdā dubia sententia He omitteth in the forenamed place the third fourth booke of Esdras the bookes of Tobie Iudith Baruch of Wisdome of Ecclesiasticus of the Macchabees A litle after Cōcerning that saith he which is written to the Hebrues many haue doubted but I say as hath bene deliuered vnto mee from mine Elders because it appeareth most manifestly to be of Paules There also concerning the second Epistle of Peter he sayth that it was doubted of many and so with some were the two last Epistles of Iohn The same Eusebius lib. 4. cap. 26. loquens de Melitone Episcopo Sardensis Ecclesiae qui recitans volumina veteris Testamenti omittit Esdras Tobi Hester Iudith Baruch Sapientiae Syrach Macchabaeorum c. Speaking of Melito the Bishop of the Church of Sardis who reckening vp the volumes of the olde Testament he omitteth Esdras Tobie Hester Iudith Baruch Wisedome Syrach the bookes of the Macchabees c. And the Laodicean Councill omitteth Lukes Gospel the Apocalyps You see therefore that these old fathers haue left these bookes out of the Canon and yet were they neyther called heretiques nor blasphemers Campion It is not lawfull to cut off the bookes of the olde Testament from the Canon which not onely as I haue sayd Luther hath done but also Caluine The one hath reiected those bookes I haue named and the other reiecteth the bookes of Tobie Ecclesiasticus the booke of Wisdome the bookes of Maccabees Baruch and the like which are de syncero Canone Walker What is this to that I haue saide I haue shewed that the olde Doctors haue refused them for Canonicall and therefore so many may we refuse and they them selues wil de no further admitted then they agree with the Canonicall Scriptures and these bookes which you name haue alwayes bene esteemed Apocrypha Augustine contra Maximinum Arrianorum Episcopum lib. 2. Cap. 14. Nec ego Nicenum nec tudebes Ariminense tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium nec ego huius authoritate nec tuistius debueris Scripturarum authoritatibus non quorumcumque proprijs sed vtrisque communibus testibus res cum re causa cum causa ratio cum ratione concertet c. August against Maximinus the Bishop of the Arrians Neither oughtest thou to bring the Council of Arimine nor I the Nicene as it were to preiudice the trueth neither should I be holden with the authoritie of this nor thou of
mislike onely he sayd that he vnderstoode not of our comming Then we beginning with the first part of his sayd booke did demaund of him with what reason he could charge the Queenes Maiesties most mercifull gouernment and vs that at this time professe the Gospel as he did in yâ— Preface of his said booke with unused and strange crueltie and torments practised vpon his fellowes in religion seeing that the Authors and professors of their Religion had most cruelly burnt aliue so many thousands of vs for the maintenance of our Religion onely besides diuers other wayes of most horrible torments whereas none of them was euer executed for Religion but either for treason or some other notorious crime punishable with death by the Lawes of the Realme Whereunto he answered that he was punished for Religion himselfe and had bene twise on the Racke and that racking was more grieuous then hanging and that he had rather chuse to be hanged then racked Whereunto one of vs sayd that belike Master Campion being the Popes tender Pernell accounteth a litle racking of him selfe to be more crueltie then the roasting quicke of many thousands of vs. You must quoth Master Campion consider the cause the cause why and not the punishment onely It hath bene euer your maner sayd we not onely to vse petitione principij but totius also not only to require a principal point in controuersie but euen the whole it self to be graunted vnto you as that your cause is good and that you be the true Church of Christ as you continually presume and take vnto you But thanks be to God the contrarie hath bene so prooued that a great part of Christendome doeth euidently see it And many thousands who were before of your Church haue fled to vs from it as from the synagogue of Antichrist And concerning his racking Master Lieutenant being present sayde that he had no cause to complaine of racking who had rather seene then felt the racke and admonished him to vse good speache that hee gaue not cause to be vsed with more seuerity For although said he you were put to the racke yet notwithstanding you were so fauourablie vsed therein as being taken off you could and did presently go thence to your lodging without helpe and vse your handes in writing and all other partes of your body which you could not haue done if you had bene put to that punishment with any such extremitie as you speake of Besides this Master Beale one of the Clarks of her Maiesties priuie Counsell being by chaunce present demaunded of him before all the companie there assembled whether that being on the racke he were examined vpon any point of Religion or no Whereunto he answered that he was not in deede directly examined of Religion but moued to confesse in what places he had bene conuersant since his repaire into the Realme Master Beale sayde that this was required of him because many of his fellowes and by likelihood he him selfe also had reconciled diuers of her Highnes subiectes to the Romish Church and had attempted to withdrawe them from their obedience due to their naturall Prince and Soueraigne Whereunto he answered that forasmuch as the Christians in olde time being commanded to deliuer vp the bookes of their Religion to such as persecuted them refused so to doe and misliked with them that did so calling them Traditores he might not betray his Catholike brethren which were as he sayd the temples of the holy Ghost But it was replied by Master Beale that it was conuenient in policie for the Prince to vnderstande what such as were sent from the Bishop of Rome her Maiesties and the Realmes mortall enemie did within her dominions and to knowe her foes from her faithful subiects specially in such a time as this wherein we liue that this inquirie did not touch the cause of Religion After this we came to the matter of his booke And first where he chargeth vs that we haue nowe of a sudden cut off many goodly and principall partes of the holy Scriptures from the whole body thereof of meere desperation and distrust in our cause as hee writeth and for example and proofe thereof he nameth first the Epistle of Saint Iames which Luther that flagitious Apostata saith he in the Preface of the same Epistle and in his booke De captiuitate Babilonica nameth contentious puffed vp drie or barren as a thing stuffed with strawe and iudgeth it vnworthie the Apostolique spirit wee answered that if Luther had so written yet Master Campion did vs wrong to charge vs with violating of the Maiestie of the holy Bible for reiecting of the sayde Epistle of S. Iames who doe and alwayes haue receiued the same Epistle Yet we prayed him that he would shewe these wordes in the places by him noted which he sayd he would if he had the bookes The booke wherein was Luthers Preface to that Epistle being deliuered him when he had read some part of the sayd Preface and found that Luther did allowe and commend that Epistle as in deede he doeth testifying that though it were reiected of some olde writers yet he commended it and tooke it to be good and profitable which wordes of Luther when Master Campion had read he shut the booke and sayde that it was not of the true edition We answered that the print was not lately published being almost fourtie yeeres sithence and that we had searched all other printes that we could come by and found them to agree with this and that we thought there was no other and therefore we prayed him that he would shewe some edition wherein it was so set downe as he alleaged it in his booke He sayd he thought it was so as he had alleaged in the same booke of Luther in the Dutch tongue Then we offered to bring him the Dutch booke for the triall of the trueth of the Latin translation but he refused to see the same But it was aduouched vnto him as the trueth is in deede that it was likewise in the Dutch booke as he had read it in the Latin for that we had made conference thereof Then he desired to see Luthers booke De captiuitate Babilonica This booke also we deliuered to him and desired that he would shewe those wordes there He read the wordes in Latin which are these in effect I passe ouer saith Luther that many doe very probablie affirme that this Epistle is not Saint Iames the Apostles nor worthie the Apostolike spirit Here Master Campion thought that he had founde at the least that Luther had sayd that the sayd Epistle was not worthie the Apostolike spirit But wee prayed him to consider that Luther spake of other mens iudgement and not of his owne as in the same place is most euident to see and also before in his Preface to that Epistle he expresly deuideth his iudgement from theirs But Master Campion much vrged the wordes very probably whereby saith
labijs charitatis meae And againe Verte sermonem meum in fraudem Do you thinke this speach proceeded of the holy Ghost Nay rather howsoeuer it displease you to heare of the matter it proceeded froÌ„ a prophane spirit as I haue said to charge the holy ghost with fraud to pray for such an effect that Holofernes might be taken with her loue snared with her kisses Camp There be no such wordes in the booke Charke Here you are manifestly ouertaken for they are worde for worde in the 9. Chapter and after your translations the vulgar and Vatablus Camp Is that to be esteemed fraude which the holy Ghost deuiseth Is it fraud to deceiue the deuill blame you her who did that she did to a good end and for the deliuery of the Church Char. What dealing is this Euen now he denied the words now finding them strong against his cause he would auoid them with a distinction of good intents to iustifie bad parts Thus you Papists hold against the word of God that we may do euill that good may come of it No Campion Gods spirit is alwayes like it selfe It is not agreeing with the maiestie of the spirit of God for any woman to pray that a stranger should be taken with the snare of his eyes looking vpoÌ„ her or that she may deceiue by lies This story therfore this practise proceded not froÌ„ the holy ghost Camp It is a shame for you to bring that example She desireth God that it will please him to turne the wickednes of Holofernes to the deliuerie of his people She prayeth not as you say that he should sinne Charke She doth pray for it in plaine words and set out her selfe in sumptuous apparell and ornaments to that purpose It is a shame for you Campion to mainteine any such absurditie and againe to deny and misconster the manifest wordes of that you would haue Canonicall scripture We stand before the face of God for the maintenance of his truth and giue such honour therunto that we acknowledge with our harts coÌ„fesse with our mouths that it is perfect full and sufficient and that there is no prophanation in it but you would haue that to be matched with holy scripture which is far vnworthy that honor What say you to the argument the place Let him be taken with the snare of his eies in me turne my speach into deceit or fraud This is a praier for successe in a matter of sinne most vnseemly for the holy ghost Camp I receiue this booke first because the Nicene couÌ„cill hath allowed it then I say further that this was her meaning that whereas God had giueÌ„ Holofernes ouer to fleshly lust that he might be taken with the loue of his eies towards her to be besotted with her yâ— she might the better performe her determinate purpose she prayeth that God will turne his sinne to the deliuery of his distressed people And what doth she commit worthy of blame in this Charke This is not only worthy of blame but also to be condemned as sinfull and sauouring of a prophane spirite that shee prayeth God to blesse her lyes and falshood her tentations and allurements to lust For the Lord hath appointed good wayes for good purposes and for the performance of that his worke he needed not her deceit For as Iob saith God needeth not any mans lie or any mans fraude Which is also true of the fraude and dangerous allurements mentioned in that chapter Camp What Chapter what Chapter Charke The ninth Chapter Reade and acknowledge the words you haue denied Here Campion read in his owne booke saying he perceiued we builded vpon our owne tâ—…slation Camp Well this is mine answere It was not truely and formally fraude but materially in the formall act fraude as for example when the people of the Iewes were commanded to steale from the Egyptians it was in the act theft but not formally theft So Abrahanis intent to kill his childe was to do murther in the act but formally it was no murther Charke You woulde nowe in steade of a short and schoolelike answere drawe me to a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from the place in hande to the examination of newe matters Therefore to take you where you will needes be I say the Hebrewe worde hath not that signification that it shoulde import theft but a spoyle which was iust and commanded of God as after a victorie or for a rewarde of their labours seruice in Egypt therefore no theft But this fraude is another thing So the first example is vnlike proueth nothing no more do the rest For Abrahams act was no murther nor intent of murther but a duetiful obedience and seruice to God who had expresly commanded it Lastly you can not thinke that the Magistrate in taking the life of a transgressor or taking away yâ— head of a traytor is a murtherer No this duetie of iustice is layd vpon him by his office from God and can not but ignorantly be called murther And such was the warrant for Abraham in his office Camp I meane killing as it respecteth the taking away of life and no otherwise Charke How do you confound the speciall with the general All murther is the taking away of life but all taking away of life is not murther To kill and to take away life from the wicked by the sworde of iustice is iust and in no respect to carry the name of murther which is euermore euill Walker Concilium Laodicenum The Councill of Laodicea hath left out Toby Iudith the booke of Wisdome Ecclus Baruch Maccabees Esra the third and fourth and in the newe Testament Luke the Apocalyps these are the wordes Quae autem oporteat legi in authoritatem recipi haec sunt Genesis Exodus c. But those which ought to be read receiued for authenticall are these Genesis Exodus c. Where the forenamed bookes are omitted Camp The Laodicene Councill was particular and not generall And againe it reckeneth vp those bookes that were vndouted and not douted of in that part of the world But what maketh this to proue that they were douted of of that Catholike Church They were douted of in that Church or in that part of the Church Ergo they were douted of of the whole Church How holdeth this Therefore it is plaine that these bookes were not doubted of in that whole Church For the same Nicene Council accepteth Iudeth as Hierome testifieth in the preface to Iudeth Further because the Church of Rome approueth them it followeth not that we should dout of them Walker Then you confesse that the Council set not downe al that we should receiue And where you make the Councill particular it was prouinciall and further was confirmed by the sixth generall Councill holden at Trullo Constantine being president as Bartholomaeus Caranza writeth fol. 71. and therfore we may with them leaue out of the Canon Tobie Iudeth the
with error therein and also for that it is in deede a matter of the chiefest controuersie betweene vs. And first for that you doe in your booke vntruely charge Luther and vs by him with the cutting away of Saint Iames epistle for that the wretche as you saie of Luther was by this epistle vanquished and ouerthrowen and for that that epistle doth so manifestly conuince his and our error in this matter of iustification as you do write we do protest that we will neither refuse nor make any exception to that epistle of Saint Iames nor to any other part of the newe Testament which you vntruely haue charged vs to haue cut off from the bodie of the holy scriptures It is well said they that you doe receaue this Epistle of Saint Iames. We haue euer receiued it saide we Howe much the more vntruely haue you charged vs with the contrarie And so entering into the matter we said Whereas you doe charge Luther with him vs all for teaching a newe and false doctrine yea heresie also in that we saie and write that we are iustified by faith onely we say for our defence against this your slaunder that the same doctrine is taught both in many places of the holy scriptures most effectually and is also expressely affirmed and pronounced by the ancient holy fathers and doctors of Christes Church both Greekes and Latines in the verie same wordes that wee do vse Let vs heare your scriptures and doctors sayd they Thē for that we came purposed to examine y◠vntruthes of Campions booke rather then to dispute we did very briefly as our memorie did then serue vs note rather then thorowly alleage many places out of the holy scriptures for the proofe of our iustification by faith and consequently by faith onely to this effect Our sauiour Christ saide we as it is in sundrie places of the Euangelistes recorded saith often Thy faith hath saued thee Onely beleeue beleeue onely They shall receaue remission of their sinnes and inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me As many as beleeue in me to them hath God giuen power to become the sonnes of God Whosoeuer beleeueth in me shall not be condemned shall not perish but haue euerlasting life Thus saith our sauiour Christ c. And Saint Paul saith Beleeue in the Lord Iesus Christ and thou shalt be saued God doeth iustifie thorowe faith Wee are saued by grace thorowe faith We are blessed by faith We are the children of Abraham yea we are the children of God by faith The righteousnes of God by the faith of Iesus Christ vnto all and vpon vs all that beleeue If thou confesse with the mouth the Lorde Iesus and shalt beleeue in thine heart that God raised him vp from the dead thou shalt be saued For with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnes and with the mouth man confesseth vnto saluation We are freely iustified by his grace thorowe faith Then said they we knowe right well that the scriptures doe conteine great commendations of faith but in all these there is not this worde faith onely which is your doctrine But the ancient holy fathers said wee vpon these groundes of the scriptures by vs alleaged doe gather and plainly pronounce that onely faith iustifieth as you shall heare anone And howe many thinges saide we doe you your selfe teach vs as necessarie articles of religion not hauing for you one plaine worde therefore but doe affirme that in effect they are conteined in the holy scriptures And you haue heard that iustification and righteousnes yea saluation and the kingdom of heauen are attributed to faith and that without any addition of any other thing And you haue heard the wordes of our Sauiour beleeue onely only beleeue And of Saint Paul you are freely iustified by faith which are in effect as much as faith onely and to more effect exceedingly then are your proofes of a great many of the principal pointes of your Popish religion And where as we meane none other by faith onely but faith without the workes of the Lawe and without our good workes if the former place can not satisfie you heare what Saint Paul sayeth further Know ye that a man is not iustified by the workes of the Lawe but by the faith of Iesus Christ. The righteousnes of God is made manifest without the Lawe by the faith of Iesus Christ vnto all and vpon all that beleeue We holde that a man is iustified by faith without the deedes of the Lawe It is one God that iustifieth circumcision by faith and vncircumcision through faith Euery one that beleeueth is absolued from all from the which they could not be absolued by the Lawe of Moses Thus saith Saint Paul and to the like effect in exceeding many places declaring that we are iustified by faith and not by the Law by faith and not by workes which is all one as to say by faith onely No it is not all one sayd they But the ancient doctors of the Church said we do vpon these very places of the holy scriptures by vs alleaged gather and in expresse wordes set downe as we doe that we are iustified by faith onely as ye shall see Saint Hillary quoth we sayeth thus reading his wordes out of the booke it selfe Mouit scribas remissum ab homine peccatum hominem enim tantum in Iesu Christo contuebantur remissum ab eo quod lex laxare non poterat fides en◅m sola iustificat That is to say It moued the scribes that sinne was remitted by man for they behelde man onely in Iesus Christ and that was remitted by him the which the Lawe can not release for faith onely doeth iustifie Thus farre Saint Hilary who as you doe see of this doctrine of Saint Paul by vs alleadged for iustification by faith without the Lawe gathereth and setteth downe the same doctrine in the same wordes that we doe teach that faith onely doeth iustifie But he saith not so in the same sense that you doe saith Master Campion We shall see of the sense anon saide we but we pray you heare the other doctors also who doe agree with vs in the same wordes Saint Ambrose also vpon the place by vs alleaged out of the third to the Romanes among many other sentences hath this Non iustificari hominem apud Deum nisi per fidem That a man is not iustified before God but by faith And shortly after Saint Ambrose saith Tam Gentiles quam Iudeos non aliter quam credentes iustificauit Quia enim vnus Deus est vna ratione omnes iustificauit That is both the Gentiles and the Iewes God hath iustified none other wayes but beleeuing For because there is one God he hath iustified all by one meanes And most plainely vpon the wordes by vs before alleaged he sayeth Iustificati gratis per gratiam ipsius Iustificati sunt gratis quia nihil operantes neque
purpose is not to deale by discourse but briefely by Logical arguments according to the order of schooles c. After he had inquired D. Fulkes name Campion also spake after this maner Campion The disputation that I desire is yet behinde for I desire it might bee in the Uniuersities This may bee called a conference but it is not the disputation which I require Besides these conferences are vnequall both in respect of the suddainnesse of them as also for want of such necessary helpes as were fitte and conuenient I see that you haue some appoynted to note as if it were made a solemne matter I shoulde haue the like so shoulde I haue come better furnished and all these might haue bene better profited Besides I haue bene yll dealt withall already things heretofore spoken by me haue bene mistaken and published in print otherwise then I euer meant D. Fulke For the suddennesse it is all alike with vs. Master Lieutenant sent you worde by my request to chuse the question your selfe on Saturday last at noone so that you had knowledge of the question as soone as we and also the choyse and appointing thereof As for the noting it is not made so solemne a matter that it can preiudice you but to preuent false reportes that may bee spread of the conference iniurious as well to you as to vs. As for the disputation you require it is not at our appoyntment It must be ordred by them that are to appoynt both you and vs. We come by commandement c. but let vs goe to the matter You slaunder vs and Master Caluine likewise in the thirde chapter of your booke for defining of the Catholike Church as we do You say we make it a Platonicall Idaea an ayrie thing that is no where c. But I will proue that it is against the nature of the Catholike Church at any time to be visible Campion Where do I slaunder you or Caluine Reade my booke I wil maintaine my booke and euery part of it And as for the Catholike Church I will mayntaine that from the time of Adam to Christ and from Christ vnto vs the Church hath bene visible But because you say I slaunder you and Caluine shewe my wordes D. Fulke These are your wordes Non est ausus contrauenire sonitu videri noluit Ecclesiae quam toties Scripturae commemorant refragari nomen callidè retinuit rem ipsam funditùs definiendo sustulit c. And ye quote Cal. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. Sect. 2. 3. Here you plainely slaunder Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church comprehending all the elect of God that haue bene are or shal be to be inuisible Camp The Catholike Church is considered according to her parts triumphant in heauen and militant on earth generally particularly and I am ready to maintaine that alwayes the militant Church in earth is visible euery 〈◊〉 in his mayer knoweth this who in their prayers pray for the Church militant therefore this is the poynt whether this be alwayes visible Fulke Wel then it appeareth in the very beginning that you swarue from the title of your owne booke sclaundering vs without cause for the definition of the whole Catholike Church and Sophistically you goe from the whole to a parte from the Catholike Church to the Church militant which is but a part of it when as the whole Catholike Church comprehendeth all the elect and is the full body of Christ that filleth all in all things as the Apostle sayeth and as we confesse in the articles of our faith We beleeue the Catholike church We deny not that the church militant sometime is visible but we affirme that the whole Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen is not visible And what cause haue you then to exclaime vpon Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church to be inuisible This we are here ready to prooue Camp I haue sayd that vpon earth the Church is alwayes visible But I pray you let vs speake of the Church militant I am sure these gentlemen would heare not of a Church of Saints in heauen but of a Church in earth wâ—…etd they may ioyne themselues what shoulde we talke of the Church in heauen They would rather knowe I am sure of what Church they are here Aske them Fulke Wel then you are found recreant in this paynt openly to sclaunder our definition to be such as should take away the nature of the Church in that we make it inuisible and now when it commeth to the tryall you will not deale with the Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen but with a part of it to witte that which is vpon earth which wee neuer denyed in some sense to be alwayes visible because it consisteth of men vpoÌ„ earth although it be not alwayes seene because it is oftentimes hidden from the worlde and sometimes also from the true members thereof But this Church vpon earth you wil haue to be alwaies visible Seeing therefore you giue ouer yâ— defence of your slauÌ„der of our definition of the Catholike Church which we came prepared to maintaine we are ready also to reason of the church militaÌ„t Campion The state of the question is that the Church militant vpon earth can not be hidden but it is alwayes knowen so that a man may vnderstand of what Church he is c. Fulke The case may be such as a member can know no more but himselfe what meane you by visible Campion I meane to be visible is to knowe one another to meete at Sacraments when I can tell that I am of this church and you of that I a Catholike and you a Protestant as I certainely know there is a Church in Fraunce a church in Spaine and in Flaunders though I be farre from it and we may knowe one another a member can say This is my pastor these are my prelates and gouernours This is playne I would to God I had one also to write for me I pray you let me not be mistaken for I haue had great wrong that wayes and thinges haue bene put in print that I neuer spake or meant Fulke If we haue this discoursing we shal neuer haue done I would you would be briefe I will prooue from a place of scripture that the church militant vnderstanding visible as you say is not alwayes visible in earth Elias complaineth that he was left alone c. Ergo the Church was not then visible Campion I deny the Antecedent further declare the meaning of the place which maketh altogether for me For Elias setteth out the schismatical church of the Samaritanes In this schismaticall church a member being driuen out as sometime it falleth out to be the worlde turning and changing he might not know the rest but yet knew there were 7000. that neuer bowed their knees to Baal Agayne you must not bring a particular to ouerthrowe a generall There were none there therefore
polluted the very Aultar of God being remoued and an idolatrous altar set in the place Campion That is not alike for we haue our functions free we may sacrifice euery where say Masse vpon euery mountaine Fulke Like enough for that matter But there was not so much as an outward face of the Church the high Priest being an Idolater and the true Altar taken away and therefore there could bee no visibilitie You answere nothing to the matter but abuse the presence with multitude of wordes and therefore committing the iudgement to them that be wise and learned I will giue place vnto my brother Mast. D. Goade Concerning the short warning the case is al one with vs as it was with you we had no longer deliberation thē you had litle aboue one dayes space concerning the question and therefore you haue no cause to complaine c. Campion What shall I call your worships name Goade My name is Goade Campion Yes that may appeare by this preparation as it were to a set and solemne thing these bookes also declare besides the bringing of a writer with you c. Goade Well all these concerne not the matter you had word assone as we and were so made acquainted with the question as it was of your own choice c. but in deede you are gone from the state of the question against which we came prepared being of the whole Catholike Church as your owne booke doth importe and it is apparant that you haue wrongfully challenged our definition being as hath bene truely sayd of the Church in general wel we must I see now followe whether you leade vs. We must leaue the Catholike Church and talke of the militant Church the generall goe to a particular One thing before I ioyne with you I woulde wish you to forbeare namely your dealing with the present state and personall speaches it will better beseeme modestie and pertaine more to the matter we haue in hande c. which may be performed with lesse waste of wordes and more humilitie You answere not to the report I haue heard of you for modest behauing your selfe in conference Campion Concerning my selfe I will lay my handes vnder your feete but I must not hūble God to you you know who saith Ne sis humilis in sapientia tua be not humble in thy wisedome I must with courage mainteine religion Haec est sapientia vestra coram populo this is your wisdome before the people c. I must not be prayed in religion Goade Howe fitly those places of Scripture are applied I will not now stande to discusse but concerning the state of the question as your selfe set it downe you are fallen from it And the Church euen as it is vpon earth being but a part of the Catholike Church I will proue sometime to be hidden But what meane you when you write that it must be of the nature of the Church to be visible Campion I meane that it must be an essentiall marke of the Church and such a qualitie as is inseparable It must be as visible as fire is hote water moist c. Goade Uery good but as you vnderstande this qualitie of visibilitie you declare your selfe to dissente from others of your side who by visible vnderstand a notable glorious Church who hath her beautie and pompe as your Bristow writeth her continuall succession of Bishops c. Campion That same outward pompe and glorie may be wāting and yet the Church be visible inough I woulde bee loth to medle with that question of succession You knowe why I woulde not willingly deale in it Goade Well as hath bene proued out of the olde testament that there was a time when the Church militant was hidden so will I proue it out of the newe There was a time when our Sauiour Christ being smitten and all the rest of the Apostles scattered and hidden that visibilitie was not an inseperable qualitie ergo this qualitie is not alwayes inseparable Campion I denie the Antecedent Goade I thinke any here might proue the Antecedent the storie of that time sheweth it plaine The face of the visible Church was then not in Christ his Apostles but in the Iewes amongst the Scribes and Pharisees they had the succession of the Priesthoode and held the chaires Christ was crucified put to death and buried the Apostles scattered and fled into holes and corners so that if visibilitie be such a certaine marke of the true Church then the high Priestes Scribes and Pharises were the true Church and not our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles Campion It was a Church in choate beginning not perfect Goade Therefore it was at sometime hidden c. namely in the beginning of the Church where was then this visibilitie Campion In the virgin Marie Zacharie Iohn Baptiste Peter c. Goade What shewe you me these to proue the Church visible who was Pastor when the Pastor was smitten and killed who occupied the chaires where was the outward face of the Church which you will haue to be so glorious and where was the Pastor and outward exercise of Religion Campion I haue said before that it is not necessarie it should haue alwayes that outward pompe and glorie In the beginning it is not apparant as afterwards Goade Ergo there is a time when it may be hidden Campion Not hidden for they were gathered together It was in deede pusillus grex a litle flocke but proue that it was not visible Goade Because you make light accompt of these times as being but the beginnings of the Church let vs goe on to the proceedings and encrease In those great persecutions vnder the cruell Emperours the Church became hidde and inuisible ergo visibilitie is not an inseparable marke specially in thee time of Dioclesian Christians were so wasted as to the iudgement of mē there were none remaining their bookes were burnt their churches destroyed and them selues put to death with sondrie tormentes Camp You answere your selfe For against whom was this ◅secutiō so hot against whom fought they were they shadowes I am sure there were Christians or els they could not haue stoode forth to haue endured those tormentes but I coulde shewe you Rome in that time Some escaped till Constantines time much about three and twenty yeeres All were not eaten vp for then euery man would be a Christian and well was he that could shewe him self so I could name you the Bishop of Rome that then was Goade But in the ende after that great hauocke was made and crueltie had wasted all that could be founde where was then the visible Church In the ende it was enforced to be hidden It had lost that which you say must needes be of the nature of it the glorie of it was so eclipsed that it shined no where Campion It was most visible then and most glorious and not long after when Constantine came al were Christiās Wherby it appeareth that diuers remained
but because of these hearers wee should seeke most for edification and it is the speciall cause of our meeting Goade Thus then I reason This speciall place alleadged by those of your side can not be vnderstoode of the Church Ergo it proues not this visibilitie Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade I would be glad for the better waying of this place that you would remember what your selfe hath written concerning the finding out of the sense of any place of Scripture in the second chapter of your booke I would you had bene as reasonable in other thinges of your booke and then we should haue agreed better for the rule is very good to helpe to the true sense that the circumstances of the place be considered the wordes that goe before that followe after the scope the clauses and whole context Nowe both out of that which goeth before and of that which followeth out of the whole scope and drift of the place it is euident to be spoken onely of the Apostles and their successors in the ministerie Ergo it is onely to be vnderstoode of them and not of the whole Church Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade Whatsoeuer is spoken properly of the Apostles doctrine and life can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church But this is properly spoken of their doctrine and life Therefore it can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church Campion You must not petere principium It was not onely spoken in respect of the Apostles function but of y◠who le church no otherwise then as the Apostles were Christians including the whole Church Goade Then that commaundement Bibite ex hoc omnes Drinke ye all of this spoken to the Apostles much more must include the whole Church being spoken of the sacrament which appertaineth to all and yet ye exclude the people from the cuppe Campion This was not spoken to them as they were Christians but in respect of their function as they were priestes the other was spoken as they were Christians Goade Neither of these is true but briefely deny one part of my argument Campion I deny the minor Goade Out of the circumstāces of the place and conclusion it is manifest that it is properly spoken of the Apostles doctrine and life and not of the whole Church Consider the wordes Vos estis sal terrae You are the salt of the earth Vos estis lux mundi c. You are the light of the worlde Non potest ciuitas abscondi c. A citie can not be hid Then the conclusion Sic luceat lux vestra So let your light shine c. You are the salt of the earth noteth the Apostles doctrine wherwith they should seasō others You are the light of the worlde noteth their life whereupon all mens eyes are cast and so can no more be hid then a citie vpon an hill Both these poyntes are proper to the ministerie and hereupon the conclusion inferred So let your light shine c. Campion You haue very well answered your selfe For the text conteineth both There is the salt and the earth the light and the world who must season and who must be seasoned who must shine and to whom they must shine Do you not see plainely that he includeth both the teachers and them that are taught c. Goade Nowe you fall to discoursing cleane besides the purpose It is true that the one can not be without the other but yet it is playne that to season to lighten and to be set as vpon an hill is proper alone to the Apostles and their ministerie For the drift and scope of the place is onely to set forth the Apostles doctrine conuersation and you violently wrest it to the whole Church The life of the ministerie is as it were set vpon an high stage the light of their conuersation is looked vnto of all what is this to the visibilitie of the whole Church Campion Uery wel doth a candle shine to it selfe and is not a master of a familie a Master and that which is spoken to him may it not be sayd also to them Goade I pray you howe holdeth this argument The life and doctrine of the ministerie is as it were set vpon a stage for all men to looke vnto and therefore they are called the salte of the earth the light of the worlde Ergo the whole Church is visible This is the force of your argument from this place Camp I haue sayd the text maketh not for you It is not vnderstoode of their ministerie and life only as they were Apostles but as they were Christians Goade As I haue proued this out of the text so nowe I will shewe this to be the sense out of the Fathers both Chrysostome and Ierome vpon the place Campion You may spare your labour you shall neuer finde Doctor that vnderstandeth it onely of the ministerie I tell you that aforehand Goade Yes I will shew out of Chrysostome that it is onely vnderstoode of the ministerie and of their life in the afternoone according to your request the place shal be shewed Campion It is a common and an vsuall kinde of speache to vtter that to the master which is meant to the seruants Goade Wil you beleeue none but your selfe hearken what Saint Hierome sayth vpon this place Campion Yes if you would beleeue Hierome as well as I we should be soone agreed What thinke you is Hierome of your religion would you be of his Goade I would not be of any mans religion to buylde vpon man I holde neither of one nor other but of Christ and grounde my religion onely vpon his worde But remember your strong place you spake of to proue the perpetual visibilitie of the church Let vs heare what it is Campion Shall I then haue one argument Goade Yea let vs heare it you shal be answered though it be not your part to oppose Campion It is out of Matthew chap. 18. Dic Ecclesiae Tell the Church I will proue out of this place that the Church of necessitie must continually be visible I proue it thus This is a commaundement that is perpetuall and must be alwayes executed in the Church But that can not be vnlesse the Church be visible Ergo the visibilitie of the Church is continuall Goade I distinguish of the maior When the Church is gathered may retaine a face when it doeth-execute gouernment hath a consistorie to heare matters then it ought to be done but this cannot be alwayes had being often hindered by persecution Camp Offences betweene brother brother happen alwaies and this is the medicine and remedy There is no age wherein there are not offences where shal I seeke the perpetual remedy that is appointed vnles the Church be perpetually visible Goade I haue said before Whē there is a state an established Church this remedy is to be sought for But this cannot alwaies be had because the militant afflicted church oftentimes
this day any poore Priest may tell the Pope seeing the Pope to erre in manners and may say vnto him Syr why do you so Fulke But that is against your owne Canon Law For what so euer the Pope doth no man may say Syr why did you so Campion I thinke there can bee shewed no such wordes in the Lawe Fulke I pray you answere me Did Peter dissemble against his conscience or with it Surely he did it not for any worldly respect but because he thought it was his dutie in so doing to beare with the weakenes of the Iewes to thinke that aman may dissemble in such a case is a matter of faith therefore his error was a matter of faith and not of facte onely Camp Why in some case the Catholikes thinke they may communicate with you come to your Churches you againe cōmunicate with vs go to our churches dispute conferre with vs c. Fulke I would wish you to conteine your selfe I knowe where you are It is a matter that doth not belong vnto you You drawe to a thing you ought to be silent in It is a matter of state it were best for you to leaue such things Camp I meane to dispute what do you threaten Fulk No but I giue you good coūsail I am more your friend then you are aware of I thinke you are already founde deepe enough in such matters But to an other argument The generall Councill confesseth that it may erre Ergo the Church may erre Camp In deede this is to the point if you can proue it Fulke Answere directly and you shall see I will proue it so as you shall not be able to auoyde it The whole councill prayeth in the ende of euery generall Council in a set forme of prayer that God will pardon their error ergo they confesse they may erre c. for thus they saye Te in nostris principijs occursorem poposcimus te quoque in hoc fine iudiciorū nostrorū pro excessibus indultorem adesse precamur scilicet vt ignorantiae parcas vt errori indulgeas c. This is the very forme of their prayer Wee prayed that thou wouldest be an ayder in our beginnings thee also in this ende of our iudgements we pray to be present as a pardoner of our excesse that is to say that thou wouldest spare our ignorance and pardon our error Here you see plainly they confesse they may erre when they desyre pardon of their errors Campion Master Doctor they pray against your errors doe they not that God would pardon your errors Fulke They pray that if they themselues haue erred they may be pardoned they speake of their owne errors committed in their owne Councill and the wordes that followe doe plainely expresse the same Campion I would see the printed booke and first I woulde knowe whether they speake of any error of faith then secondly I would know if it can be shewed wherein the Councill erred Fulke Seeing the Councill by this prayer confesseth that it may erre what neede it be shewed wherein it erred Campion Was this prayer said in the Councill of Trent Fulke I know not but it is the prayer that is appointed to be said after euery Councill Campion I answere the Councill of Trent will not acknowledge any error it was some matter of facte Fulke Their wordes are plaine that they may erre not onely in facte but also in faith and therefore they pray to be pardoned in both Et quia conscientia remordente tabescimus ne aut ignorantia nos traxerit in errorem aut praeceps forsitan voluntas impulerit iustitiam declinare ob hoc te poscimus te rogamus vt si quid offensionis in hac Concilij celebritate contraximus cōdonare ac remissibile facere digneris And because our owne conscience accusing vs we do faint lest either ignorance hath drawen vs into error or hasty will perhaps hath driuē vs to decline from iustice we pray thee we beseech thee that if wee haue committed any offence in the celebration of this Council thou wouldest vouchsafe to forgiue it and to make it pardonable Campion That very worde declareth that they meane of some error in facte not of doctrine They pray that if they haue ignorantly erred from iustice they might be pardoned Fulke Those thinges which the Councill doth wisely distinguishe you do vnwisely confound They acknowledge that ignorance might drawe them into error and heady will drawe them from iustice they distinguish error from iniustice and desire to bee pardoned of both As for the booke it shal be brought We could not haue bookes here for we agreed vpon the question but immediatly before dinner and could not go out of the place since for bookes but it shal be shewed M. Lieutenant Here M. Lieutenant told them the time was past but M. D. Fulke desired to haue one agument more Fulke The Councill of Nice 2. decreed an error therefore the Church may erre Camp Now we shall haue the matter of Images Fulke You are Nimis acutus you will leape ouer the stile or euer you come at it I meane not to speake of Images Campion Well then I denie the Antecedent Fulke The Synode decreed that Angels Archangels soules of men c. haue bodies are visible circumscriptible and this is an error ergo they decreed an error c. Camp They decreed no such thing Fulke You shall heare the wordes of the Councill Actione 1. First that saying of one Iohānes Bishop of Thessalonica was read in these wordes De angelis archangelis eorū potestatibus quibus nostras animas adiungo ipsa Catholica ecclesia fic sentit esse quidem intelligibiles sed non omnino corporis expertes inuisibiles Concerning Angels and Archangels and the powers of them to which also I adioyne our soules the Catholike Church her selfe doeth so thinke that they are in deede intelligible but not altogether without bodies and inuisible Which wordes of Iohānes Thessalonicēsis the Archbishop of Cōstantinople Tharasius who was prolocutor of the Councill abridgeth and concludeth vpon them saying Ostendit autem pater quod angelos pingere oporteat quando circumscribi possunt vt homines apparuerunt This father hath shewed that we must paint the Angels also seeing they may be circumscribed haue appeared as men Sacra Synodus dixit Etiam domine The holy synode said Yea my lord Here you see the decree of the whole Synode approuing the saying of Iohannes Thessalonicensis and the conclusion of Tharasius thereupon Campion Shewe me the decree and let me see the Canon many things are spoken in Councils that are not the Canons Fulke I haue read the decree Campion Shew me the Canon reade their Canon Fulke As though euery Council hath set forth Canōs many Councils haue no Canons neither hath this any that I know You shew your selfe a man well read in the Councils that will exact
Church though you call it a small matter and yet you wil not teach the people that it is a smal matter Fulk I said that inuocation of Saints as it was held by some of the latter sort of auncient fathers was but a small error in comparison of such grosse heresies which the Popish Church doeth now holde and in comparison of such inuocation of Saints as is now mainteined and practised by the Papistes but your accusatioÌ„ of my booke was written therefore you can not alter it Camp Lend me your booke that I may charge you The booke being deliuered after a litle turning he sayde This is not the booke that I meant Fulke This is the booke that you named Camp I meant your answere vnto Doctor Allens articles because Bristow hath confuted it Fulk This is a poore shift wheÌ„ you haue slandered my booke and named one to flie to another so would you do with that booke you name now For I am sure that neither in that nor any other that euer I wrote your slander can be founde Goad There is an other thing ye were desirous to see touching the Councill of Constantinople and the Councill of Nice one of them being alleaged to be coÌ„trary to the other about setting vp of Images in the Church the Councill of Constantinople disalowing Images and the second Councill of Nice allowing theÌ„ and condemning the other Councill as erroneous Camp That of Constantinople was not a generall nor lawfull Councill but a certaine Iconomachy and may rather be called a conuenticle then a generall Councill and therefore no contrarietie hereby proued betweene generall Councils Goade It appeareth it was generall and solemnely gathered in the chiefe citie heare the wordes in the title of the Councill Sancta magna uniuersalis Synodus quae iuxtagratiaÌ„ Dei per pium deuotorum orthodoxorum nostrorum Imperatorum ConstaÌ„tini Leonis decretum in hac diuinormâ—… studiosa regia ciuitate congregata est c. The holy great and vniuersall Synode which by the grace of God and the godly decree of our godly Emperours Constantine and Leo is gathered in this holy and royall citie This Councill did confute by the Scriptures the setting vp of Images in the Church out of Deut. 20. Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any Image nor likenes of any thing c. and Deut. 4. For which cause saith this Counsaile you heard the voyce of wordes in the middest of the fire but you sawe no image Contrary to this the Councill of Nice doth accurse those that will not worship images in these words Qui venerandas imagines non veneraÌ„tur Anathema Accursed be they that worship not holy images So it appeareth that these two Councils were contrary and therefore one of them did erre But I will proceede to the next place You doubted also whether it were to be founde in Saint Augustine that there is no Miracle in the Sacrament Now you may heare his owne wordes To. 3. De Trinitate lib. 3. cap. 10. Sicut panis ad hoc factus in accipiendo Sacramento consumitur Sed quia haec hominibus nota sunt quia per homines fiunt honorem tanquam religiosa possunt habere stuporem tanquam mira non possunt As the bread ordained for this purpose is consumed in receauing the Sacrament But because these things are knowen vnto men are done by men they may haue honour or reuerence as holy things but they can not be wondered at as things strange and miraculous Here you haue Augustines wordes against miracle in the Sacrament Camp In deede there is no such euident miracle visibly appearing as when Christ cured yâ— lame the blinde c. but yet there is a great miracle which our faith doeth acknowledge Goade Augustine speaketh simply against miracle so that whether it be visible or inuisible both is excluded Beside it is perpetuall in all miracles that there must bee some outward sensible signe Further you doubted of Inhaerens iustitia righteousnes inherent in our selues which I auouched to bee erroneous doctrine set forth in the late Council of Trent The wordes are these Concil Trident. cap. 7. Verè iusti nominamur sumus iustitiam in nobis recipientes vnusquisque suam secundum mensuram quam spiritus sanctus partitur singulis prout vult secundum propriam cuiusque dispositionem cooperationem Et cap. 16. Quae quum iustitia nostra dicitur quia per eam nobis inhaerenteÌ„ iustificamur illa eadem Dei est quia a Deo nobis infunditur per Christi meritum We are called and in deede are truely righteous receiuing in our selues euery man his own righteousnes according to the measure which the holy Ghost doth deuide to euery one euen as he will according to euery mans own proper disposition cooperation For that righteousnes which is called ours because we are iustified by it inherent in our selues the selfe same is the righteousnes of God because it is powred into vs from God by the merit of Christ. Camp I did not doubt of inherent righteousnes in our selues whether it were in the Council of Trent for I defend mainteine it as the Councill teacheth it you saye it is by imputation of Christes righteousnes being without vs whereby wee are iustified and I say wee are iustified by that righteousnesse which is within vs though it be not of vs. Goade The place which I vrged against you the other day beside many other in the scripture is direcly against this doctrine 2. Cor. 5. 21. He hath made him to be fin for vs which knewe no sinne that we should be made the righteousnes of God in him Fulke Well nowe we are to come to the question You holde that the natural body blood of Christ is contained in the Sacrament of the Lordes supper Your wordes are Christ is present in the Sacrament substaÌ„tially very God man in his natural body Camp I say there is really present in the Sacrament the naturall body and blood of Christ vnder that bread and cup. Fulke What meane you by these wordes vnder the bread and cup that we may agree of termes Campion You knowe in the bread is whitenes c. that is not in his body make your argument Fulke So I will The cup is not the naturall blood of Christ Ergo the other parte is not his naturall body Campion There is present in the cup the naturall blood of Christ. Go to my wordes Fulke Well The naturall blood of Christ is not present in the cup Ergo the naturall body is not present in the other part Campion The naturall blood of Christ is present in the cup. Fulke Thus I disproue it The wordes of Christes institution be these This cup is the new testament in my blood But the naturall blood of Christ is not the newe testament in his blood Ergo the naturall blood of Christ is not in the cup. Camp The ward Is is neither in the
that but let it be tryed by the authority of the Scriptures not the proper witnesses of any but common to both let matter with matter cause with cause and reason with reason trye it c. And Hierome writing to Laeta de institutione filiae fol. 58. willeth not to reade some without doubting and other some warely but he sayth Caueat omnia Apocrypha Let her beware of all the Apocrypha which he nameth in Prologo Galeato Et si quando ea non ad dogmatum veritatem sed ad signorum reuerentiam legere voluerit sciat non eorum esse quorum titulis praenotantur multaquè ijs admixta vitiosa grandis esse prudentiae aurum in luto quaerere And if at any time she will reade them not for the trueth of opinions but for the reuerence of signes let her knowe that they are not theirs whose titles they beare but that many vitious thinges are mixt with them and that it is a point of great wisdome to seeke out golde in dirt Loe here you see that he biddes her to beware in the reading of them Camp The Scripture is principally to be admitted but I would we might haue an argument Walker Then thus I reason That which he biddeth to beware of is not to be holden authenticall But he biddeth to beware of the Apocrypha Ergo the Apocrypha is not to be holden authenticall Camp Apocrypha are taken two wayes First for those bookes which are doubted of and then for such bookes that are not allowed Such were the prophecie of Enoch Iacobs testament and such like which he calleth Somniolenta deliramenta vitiosa c. of those Hierome speaketh in this place and not of those others For what point is there in Ecclesiasticus the booke of Wisdome that is to be found fault with that is vitiosū not good Walker They are called Apocrypha that are not in the Canon receiued and allowed to haue proceeded vndoubtedly from the holy Ghost these Apocrypha are forbidden to be read And Hierome in praefat in lib. Reg. saith Hic prologus scripturarum c. Si quid extra hos est inter Apocrypha est ponendum c. They are not in the Canon therefore Apocrypha are onely to be read Camp Woulde Hierome forbid the gentlewoman to reade Ecclesiasticus where there are giuen so many morall precepts Non sunt in Canone Hebraeorum sed in Canone Christianorum They are not in the Canon of the Hebrewes but they are in the Canon of the Christians Walker They may be read for morall Lessons but not for matters of religion which must be proued by Canonicall scripture What say you to the second booke of Macchabees Thinke you that to be holden for Canonicall scripture Camp I thinke so What should let Walker What say you to that sentence 2. Macch. 12. thrust into the text Salubris est oratio pro defunctis and to that which followeth Et si quidem bene vt historiae competit hoc est vt ipse velim sin autem minus digne concedendum est mihi And if I haue done well and as is meete for a storie this also my selfe did wish c. Camp It is marueile that you should say that it is thrust in Walker It is noted so by other and the duetie of an historiographer is to reporte things done truely and plainely without arguing like a Logitian but he sayeth Ergo salubris est oratio pro defunctis Therefore prayer for the dead is healthfull which appeareth first to haue bene set in the margent But howe auoyde you the last Can such asking of pardon be of the holy Ghost wherein hath hee fayled or of whome shall hee be pardoned Camp The interpreter asketh pardon of his speach for his style and not for the doctrine The holy Ghost asketh no more pardon then Paul did when he saide Rudis sum sermone I am rude in speach when he spake in a base and lowe stile Charke Campion howsoeuer you labour to auoyde the direct course of disputation and haue obteined some change of the question I must call you home by and by Notwithstanding I minde a while to followe this your course and to finde you out in your owne trace where I maruaile howe you dare thus speake in this assemblie For what a blot is it to the holy Ghost to affirme he should aske pardon and to the Apostle Saint Paul to say his stile to the Corinthians is a base and lowe stile But to vse no further preface I will thus proue that the 2. booke of the Macchabees was not indited by the holy Ghost Whatsoeuer needeth pardon either for matter or maner was not indited by the holy Ghost But the story of the 2. booke of Macchabees needeth pardon either for matter or maner Therefore it was not indited by the holy Ghost Camp This man would be angrie with me if he knew why Charke If I woulde knowe I not why to be angrie with you a notable and vowed enemie of the trueth of God and a seditious man against the state But I come not to deale with your person but against your errors Answere the argument Camp I say the writer of the Macchabees asketh pardon of his speach neyther doeth Paul blotte the holy Ghost when he saide that he was rudis sermone that he spake not so eloquently nor so finely as sometimes he might Charke You answere not directly and beside you affirme an error For S. Paul craueth no pardon for his stile but setteth his plainesse against the set and curious speach of the false Apostles who did come in gay apparance and shewe of wordes as if they had had al the power of trueth that might be and yet in this plaine style the Apostle was of al others most mightie most eloquent As for the 2. booke of Macchabees which you make Canonicall seripture here I will make this challēge if you dare answere it to proue many lyes in it through 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and that therefore it was written by a prophane spirite for the matter But to come to the Syllogisme and to disproue your distinction I reason thus The writers of holy Scriptures aske not any pardon at all either for the matter or for the manner Therefore they aske no pardon for their style Camp I deny your Antecedent Paul sayeth Rudis sum sermone Charke If Saint Paul saith Rudis sum sermone doeth he I pray you in those wordes craue pardon for his stile howe hang your wordes together I will proue my Antecedent by the place of Peter None that haue written as they were directed by the spirit of God craue pardon either for matter or for manner But all the holy men of God that wrote the Scriptures haue written as they were directed by the spirit of God Therefore none of the holy men of God that haue written the scriptures craue pardon either for matter or manner Camp This acknowledging
blasphemies for euen as Lucifer by pride woulde haue made him selfe equall with God so this Lucifers vicar in earth woulde by a Luciferian pride make his worde Canons and writings equall with the Maiestie of Gods worde and the Canonicall Scriptures Matt. 18. Act. 15. Miser Confossus diruptus Matth. 9. Mark 5. 10. Luk. 7. 8. 12. 18. Act. 26. 18. Iohn 1. 12. Iohn 3. 16. Act. 16. 31. Galat. 3. 8. Ephes. 2. 8. Rom. 4. Rom. 3. 22. Rom. 3. 24. Galat. 2. 16. Rom. 3. 21. 22 28. 30. Act. 13. D. Hillarius in Matth. cap. 8. Faith onely doeth iustifie Rom. 3. D. Ambrosâ—…in cap. 4. 9. ad Rom. Basil. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Gregor Nazianzen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Aâ—…an in Galat 3. Chrisâ—…st in Hom. 2. in Rom. Origen in Rom. cap. 3. August de fide operibus Rom. 4. Psalm 32. D. Basil. de Humilitate 1. Cor. 13. Mat. 7. 22. 23. Galat. 5. Ephe Ephe. 2. 8 9. Apoc. 22. The pamphleters do say that we refused to subscribe not shewing M. Campions addition of merites Matth. 10. 1. Corinth 1. 29 30 31. Ephe. 2. 8 9. Rom. 3. 27. Rom. 4. 2. Mark 16. Both Basill Nazianzen were offred but it was Nazianzen not Basill as they report August De fide operibus Here was speache that nothing was meant by the noting but a priuate matter to preuent false reports And this he spake with great iolitie scoffingly Here was much a do about writing yet I neuer knewe any thing imprinted that might preiudice him 1. Argument Here the wordes of the text were read Bolde asseâ—…â—…rations Tobias was of another time for it was froÌ„ the dayes of Achab vnto Salmanazar 140. yeeres at the least Campion â—…greeth not with others of his owne side 2. Argument Pillars were erected in euery place with this blasphemous inscription superstitione Christi vbiq deleta c. The Papistes call iustice for treason persecution for religion Strange Diuinitie The third argument Homil. in Math. 24. There is no other proofe there is none other way to knowe the Church or true Christianitie but only by the Scripture 4. Argument Camp ratione secunda Hanc peruestigemus ex verbis adiacentibus voces clausulâ—… tota connexio Absurditie ergo preceptes giuen to the M. his calling are giuen to the familie Here M. D. Goade was turning for Chrys. vpon this place and he willed that it might be shewed at the next meeting Ad nauseam â—…sque Here Camp after his bold maner did insolently insult by these vaine questions The discipline of the Church perpetuall necessary though it be not alwayes had put in practise Therefore it is not alwayes visible Ephes. 1. Absurde The commandement in the institution bindeth Christians to receiue the cup. And Paul saith 1. Cor. 11. That which I receiued of the Lord wherby he teacheth that he had a commandement Absurde Who can dispute with him that denieth the groundes of disputation This discontented others also that stood by They may be reconed borne within the couenant but they are not his children if they be not elected thogh we iudge theÌ„ not because their not being elected doth not appeare vnto vs The second argument Here was promise that the place should be shewed Here there was a litle whispering amonges the company as if it had bene a soft hissing Scripture most absurdly applyed Campions absurdities 3. Argument And yet who knoweth not that generall CouÌ„cils haue bene contrary one directly against another Here the Papists in a libell brought out of LaÌ„cashire do report this far otherwise as they do all the rest but none truely they that were present can tell 4. Argument Here for lacke of the booke present it was referred to the shewing of the place afterward Absurde For there is as great necessitie of the one Sacrament as the other The Greke testament being reached vnto him he refused to reade it in the Greeke All this is but a vaine brag for his sight in Greke was very litle or none at all as may appeare in the first dayes conference here al so and afterwards ArgumeÌ„t 5. Here CampioÌ„ interrupted him saying there was no such place made much a doe Augustins argument Here the booke was promised to be brought the place to be shewed 6. ArgumeÌ„t Here it was promised that it should be shewed The seueÌ„th argument This D. Fulke read out of his note booke Concilior Tom. primo de ord celeb concilii ArgumeÌ„t 8. 9. Argument Ad Dard. Epist. 57. A fancie in philosophie Here it appeared that many were offended with the indignitie thereof The questions Here M. Lieutenaunt was content that any learned man present might moderate but none would take it vpon them Concil To. 3. fol. 139. ArgumeÌ„t 1. 2. Argument Some of these wordes were then omitted not read for breuitie sake 3. Argument 4. Argument 5. ArgumeÌ„t Here D. Fulke was admonished to rehearse the place in English that the people might vnderstande 6. ArgumeÌ„t ArgumeÌ„t 7. 8. Argument 9. Argument Here M. Lieutenant admonished them that the time was past 10. Argument 12. Augument The question 1. ArgumeÌ„t 2. ArgumeÌ„t 3. Argument 4. Argum ArgumeÌ„t 5. 6. ArgumeÌ„t Gene. 17. Exod. 12. Absurde Substance must be in a certaine vacaunt or voyd emptines and yet forsooth in quantitie and qualitie 8. ArgumeÌ„t ArgumeÌ„t 9. 10. Argument 12. Argument 2. Pet. 2. 1. Cor. 11. 2. Thes. 2. The questioÌ„â—… A prouerbial speach signifying thus much If you take any pleasure in speaking euill you shall lose it in hearing euill 1. Argument 1. Argum. Ignorance of the storie 〈◊〉 Pet. 1. 21. Here was a coÌ„mon good liking of this way Campion did often adde alter his answeres while they were in writing Before he desired it now being straightned he disliketh it and counteth it losse of time The aduersary against himselfe and yet turned from all his shifts In English If so be I haue done wel as agreeth with a storie this I do desire if not so worthily it must be pardoned in me Iudith 10. 3. 4. Iudith 10. vers 12 13. 11. 19. and 12. 14. Iud. 9. vers 10. Let him be taken with the snare of his eyes set on me and smite him with the lippes of my loue Turne my speach into fraude By Campionâ—… doctrine no practise is vnlawfull so it be for the deliuerie of their Church Rom. 3. 8. Moreouer Iudith doth praise that act which the holy ghost doth flatly coÌ„demn vide Iud. 9. 2. gen 49. 5. c. Iob. 13. 7. Camp knoweth not his owne translation Arg. prim prouing that the scriptures coÌ„teine sufficient doctrine to saluation In the forme or maner of the Church Arg. 2. Rom. 4. 11. Colos. 2. 11 12. Gen. 17. 12. 1. Cor. 10. 1. Luke 22. 49. Ioh. 15. 26. Iohn 2. 22. Campion was readier to moue 2 newe matters then to answere one argument Rom. 11. 6. If the Apostles proued all by Scripture as Campion graunteth why should not all others doe the like Iohn 5. 46. 〈◊〉 Argum. By Campions owne answere the Apostle speaketh of faith onely Here againe it appeareth by his answere that the Apostle teacheth faith onely Nothing to the matter 1 2 The very worde 3. Argum. Exformula Gal. 3. 11. 12 Gal. 3. 12. ArgumeÌ„t 4. Canisius in Caâ—…ech Payu Andr. lib. 9. Orthodox Expl. Matth. 11. 19. Luke 7. 29. Arg. 4. Arg. 5. Arg. 6. To trifle and shift by childish words In facte and deede