Geneua at the least that of all likelyhood as diuers housholdes by his owne rule do concurre together to make one conuenient parish So diuerse parishes in one citie suburbes and territorie thereof may be vnited and rightlye beare the name of the church Except wee shall thinke that Christ referring as they suppose his Apostles to the imitation of the Iewes church gouernment they were so negligent workemen as there being at that time 400. Synagogues in that one citie they had erected in all their times but one congregation christian church or parish answerable to one Synagoge it being lawfull for them by the square of that platforme to haue erected if they had could 400. But let this passe as a thing impertinent and to returne to the maimed pining Parishes at Geneua You will say did not Cartwright know the ecclesiasticall gouernment of that citie when he writ his bookes or shall we once conceaue that he thought to condemne that regiment which in other places hee doth so greatly extoll certainly for mine owne part although I do not greatly respect what he will saie that hee either knoweth or thinketh yet I suppose he will neuer for shame denie it but that he misliketh that forme of church regiment For first besides the premises being vrged with Caluins authoritie who thought the church of Geneua with all her sayde Parishes to make but one body of a church his answere to that point in effect is this Admit Caluin so thought I am of opinion that if Caluin had not soe thought hee would neuer haue erected vp such an Eldership And if Beza did not thinke so still I iudge hee would alter it Secondly also vppon another occasion he resembleth the order of certaine reformed churches which in this sence must be necessarily either of Scotland Flaunders or Geneua vnto the custome in S. Ieromes time when Bishops besides their one onely church had certaine other congregations belonging to their ouersight c. and in mislike thereof sayth for parte of his answere to this pointe being pressed by his aduersary against him I appeale to the institution of God and vse of the purer times after the Apostles But amongst other qualifications which he maketh least we should thinke that where such reformations are made as haue diuers parishes belonging to one Eldership there the old Diocesse and Bishops are in effect not abrogated but a little altered he sayth that one in such Eldership is aboue the rest but for a time as Caluin was chosen thereunto euery two yeares and not during his ministerie Which authority ouer many parishes but for a time although he will not plainly condemne it in the reformed churches which hee fauoreth yet speaking against the order of the church of England both he his companions doe make it a steppe whereby Sathan did aduaunce the kingdome of Antichrist Lastly as hitherto you haue found M. Cartwright with his friendes opposite in this matter vnto Geneua and Scotland differing also much from the churches in the Low countries so he seemeth to mee to crosse himselfe For in his second booke hee sayth that particular churches are nowe in steed of Synagogues and that their Synagogues were the same that our particular churches are And in his third booke he writeth thus For my part I confesse that there commeth not to my minde whereby I could precislie conclude out of the olde testament that there was an eldershippe amongst the Iewes in euery of their Synagogues If that can not then be shewed out of Moses who was so faythfull in setting downe all that was committed to his charge and that Christ commaunded no new thing but such as Moses instituted how hath hee vrged so mightely that we must haue his Elderships in euery Parish We shall see peraduenture that in shorte time M. Cartwright will giue ouer this holde and betake himselfe to the citie consistories framing new Diocesses to bee subiect vnto them as in other countries you haue heard they are Well I would wishe that before their Elderships were graunted vnto them they should agree together where they ought to place them But nowe to the seuerall partes of euery Eldership CHAP. 8. Of Bishops generally of the pretended equalitie of Pastors or new parish Bishops and how the chiefe impugners of Bishops beginne to relent IN the olde testament the high Priest besides that he was a figure of Christ had also vnder Moses Iosua the Iudges and Kinges for the better ordering and gouernment of the church authoritie and iurisdiction ecclesiasticall within that countrie of Canaan vnder whom for the same purpose were other Priests at least 24. that were called Principes Sacerdotum Princes of the Priestes all of them inferior to the high Priest but superior to the rest In the new testament our Sauiour Christ whilst hee liued on the earth had his Apostles and in degree vnder them his 70. Disciples After his ascentiō the same inequality of the ministery of the word continued in the Church by all mens confession as long at the least as the Apostles liued In the Apostles times Saint Marke was Bishop of Alexandria Saint Iames was Bishop of Ierusalem Timothy was Bishop of Ephesus and Titus was Bishop of Crete if the ancient fathers and Ecclesiastical histories be of any credite The Apostles hauing receaued the promise of the holy Ghost after a short time dispersed themselues by aduise into diuerse regions And there by painefull preaching and labouring in the Lords haruest they planted no doubt very many Churches As the number of Christians grew and had their particular assemblies and meetings in many Cities and countries within euery one of their circuites they placed pastors in euery congregation they ordained certaine Apostolicall men to bee chiefe assisters vnto them whom they placed some one in this particular countrey another in that and some others in sondry Cities to haue the rule and ouersight vnder them of the Churches there and to redresse and supply such wantes as were needefull And they themselues after a while and as they grewe in age and escaped the crueltie of tyrantes remained for the most part in some head Citty within their compasse to ouersee them all both Churches Pastors and Bishops or Superintendents and to giue their directions as occasions required and as they thought it conuenient When any either of these Apostolicall assistantes or of the Apostles themselues dyed there were euer some worthy men chosen and appointed to succeede them in those Cities and Countries where they had remained For wee may not idlely dreame that when they dyed the authoritie which was giuen vnto them ceased no more then we may that the authoritie of Aaron of his naturall sons expired and ended with them Besides it is manifest by all Ecclesiasticall hystories that many Churches were planted after theyr deathes And furthermore it coulde not be but that some Churches especially vnder those Apostles that were soonest put to
some Prophets some Euangelistes some Pastors and Doctors for the repayring of the Saintes for the worke and the Ministerie and for the edification of the body of Christ. And againe vppon these wordes A Bishop must be vnreproueable c. hee meeteth with the common obiection for the equalitie of Ministers because euery Minister is called a Bishope sometimes in the Scriptures and sayth that the word Bishoppe notwithstanding it be oftentimes vsed by S. Paule for euery pastor of the church of God who haue a kinde of ouersight ouer theyr seuerall charges and so may suo modo after a sort bee called Superintendents and Bishops c. yet heere it signifieth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Primarios illos ecclesiarum pastores c. Those chiefe pastors to whom the ouersight of the liues and manners of the other ministers is committed whom according to the force of the Greeke appellation we in these dayes do call Superintendents Hitherto then it appeareth as I take it what is both the practise of the reformed Churches in Germany and the iudgemēt also of the chiefe learned men there since Melanchthon Bucers times concerning Bishops or Superintendents with their preheminence charge and authoritie Some there are indeed beyond the seas who followinge the immoderate proude and slaunderous humor that Melanchthon Camerarius spake of before haue vttered their great mislike of the Germaine Superintendents and that with lesse modestie a great deale then doth well become them In reproofe of one of them Gerlachius a learned man of Tubing writeth in this sort Licet titulos ordinum c. Although thou beholdest with disdaine as it were from aboue the titles of orders after the fashion of hypocrites and of the Anabaptistes yet with a vaine perswasion of knowledge foolish arrogancye whereby thou contemnest our countrymen in respect of thy selfe and dost chalenge especiall knowledge to thee and thy fellowes onely Plus turges quà m omnes Doctores et Superintendentes nostri Thou swellest more with pride then all our Doctors and Superintendents And what commeth into thy minde that thou shouldest cauill at the degrees of ministers as though it were not lawfull to ordayne such degrees for the building and gouernment of the Church Did not God himselfe in the old Testament appoint a chiefe Bishop Priests and Leuits And in the new Testament gaue hee not some Apostles some Prophets some Euangelists and some Pastors and Doctors Had not the primatiue church accordingly Bishops Priestes and Deacons And againe a little after in the same booke whilest thou a proude man girdest so often at the title of Superintendent I affirme that thou reprehendest the Apostle Paule himselfe who hath giuen this name to a distinct order of ministers of the church And our Auncestors following this Apostle haue thought it meete that for the edifying of the church and for orders sake there should be certaine Superintendentes that is ouerseers not onely of the flocke but of the nisters in like manner Thus farre Gerlachius who if hee were in England knewe into what an extremitie the like persons are growen vnto in the same case amongst vs It would peraduenture moue him For nowe there is no remedye with our ministers of that consorte but they must all bee equall They cannot endure it no the meanest of them to haue anye of their owne coate their Superior They are fallen into the contradiction of Chors and doe tell both Moyses and Aaron that they take to much vpon them All Pastores saye they are and ought to be of equall authoritie in their seuerall Parishes and no one to haue power ouer another Euery parish Priest with them must bee a Bishop and haue as full iurisdiction in his Parochiall dioces as it is lawful for any Bishop in the world either to haue or to execute For orders sake they are content that in their Classicall prouinciall or Nationall assemblies some one minister bee chosen from amongst thēselues to be the moderator for the propounding of matters gathering of voices c. But his office preheminence is to continew no longer then whilest those assemblies last Otherwise or for any further authoritie either of Bishops or Archbishops whether they haue abolished popery reformed religiō maintained the gospell abandoned superstitiō or whatsoeuer they haue done or yealded vnto they holde it altogether vnlawfull do raile against them all against their callings and against all that defend them and that with more then heathenish scurrilitie Cartwright is the chiefe man that began this course in Englande and you shall see howe pretily his schollers follow him Archbishops Bishops sayth he are new ministeries neuer ordayned by God The first step to this kind of Bishopricke beganne at Alexandria and not at Syon The name and office of an Archbishop is vnlawfull his function is of the earth and so can do no good but much harme in the church he is a knobbe or some lumpe of flesh which being no member of the body doth burthen it and disgrace it Whereupon foorth come his schollers crying out amaine that Archbishops Bishops are superfluous members of the body of Christ and that they mayme and deforme his body making it by that meanes a monster That they are vnlawfull false bastardly gouernors of the church That they are the ordinances of the Diuell That they are in respect of theyr places enemies of God that they are petye Popes pety Antichristes Bishops of the Diuell and incarnate Diuels that none euer defended this gouernmēt of our Bishops but Papists and such as were infected with Popish errours That the Lawes that mayntaine the Archbishops and Bishops are no more to bee accounted of then the Lawes that mayntaine Steves and that the true church of God ought to haue no more to do with them and their Synagogues then with the Synagogue of Sathan All which Consistorian and modest assertions aswell for the equalitie of Ministers as against the calling of Bishops being ioyned together are wholy opposite to all that which hitherto I haue writt̄e touching this matter Euen as though they should haue cast downe their gauntlets proclaymed an vtter defiance to all the Churches that euer were established in the world for much aboue three thousande yeares the Churches whilest the law continued the churches in Christs time the Churches in his Apostles times the Churches throughout all christendome for a thousand fiue hundred yeares against all the generall Councels all the auncient fathers all ecclesiasticall histories against al the chiefe reformers of religon in this latter age against all the learned mens iudgements before mentioned and against all the reformed churches whersoeuer in christ̄edome that eyther haue BB. or Superint̄edents God forgiue th̄e this great sin of pride presumption deliuer th̄e out of the number of those of wh̄o it is said that their mouthes speake proud things that they dispise gouernment that they
conceaue of it they shew themselues in theyr colours and doe call it plainely a Senate neither respecting the wisedom which themselues doe ascribe vnto the Apostles nor the foresayd example of the purer West Churches And indeede although at Geneua the name of the Consistory be most in vse yet I gesse that Beza would gladly bring it to be chaunged and called a Senate And I doe partly so thinke because in his printed Booke of excommunication he hath left out the reason why the Apostles called it not Senate but Eldership which reason is in his written Booke that Erastus confuted Besides also oftentimes in his notes vppon the new Testament hee tearmeth the forme of that gouernmēt by the name of Ecclesiasticall Senate And namely where they dreame it was commaunded by Christ in these wordes Dic Ecclesiae tell the Church Constat hic agi de Ecclesiastico Senatu it is manifest saith he that here Christ speaketh of the Ecclesiasticall Senate In another place also he saith tell the Church that is the Eldership and here in effect tell the Ecclesiasticall Senate So that to my vnderstanding he confoundeth Eldership and Senate making them both one Which peraduenture will bring himselfe within the compasse of his own words against Castalion To translate Presbyterium Eldership Senatum a Senate doth argue a greate vanitye of witte and is indeede a prophane innouation But to let that passe by hooke or crooke it must be a Senate which tickleth and pleaseth some of our reformers insomuch as in their Latine discourses of Discipline there is little but Ecclesiasticall Senate and Senatours Christus pro more Iudaeorum Ecclesiam Ecclesiasticum Senatum appellauit Christ after the custome of the Iewes called the Ecclesiasticall Senate the Church Againe Ecclesiasticall Senate is an assembly of Elders c. And againe Cum hic Senatus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Paulo appellatur Presbyteros esse hos Senatores necesse est Seeing this Senate is called by Paul an Eldership it followeth of necessity that the Elders must be Senatoures I omitte some old English names which haue beene giuen to this Minion as Congregation Assembly Segniory c. and some Latine names also as the Epitome of the Church and Diaconia Presbyterorū the Deaconship of Elders because they are now growen as it seemeth to bee too base Rather let vs call it with Iunius if I conceaue his meaning materfamilias the huswife of the Churche in Christes absence or with Maister Beza Tribunal Christi the Tribunall seate of Christ. But yet for all these wordes I greatly doubt it that such honourable titles will not long be continued For if Maister Beza his interpretation of Christes speaches Dic Ecclesiae doth proue to be authenticall then they must be enforced in my opinion to call their gouernement by a name of no great estimation amongest those that professe Christ. For let the place be considered and hee maketh Christ in effect to say Tell the Church that is tell the Senat Archisynagogorum of the Archrulers of the Synagogue who had the power and iurisdiction that is there spoken of in their handes By which exposition if Christ had beene pleased to haue spoken properly without vsing of any figure when he saide Tell the Church he should haue said Tell the Synagogue and the word Church in that place must needes be so expounded Whereby it followeth that if Christes authority by Bezaes exposition may be regarded they ought by theyrowne collections and interpretations to call their seuerall Senates so many Synagogues Besides Maister Beza saith that Synedrium and Synagogue were both one in Christes iudgement and there is nothing more reasonable in theyr writings then to call theyr Senats Synedria which sheweth that at the least they may aswell by Christs testimony call them Synagogues if they list I would not haue troubled you with this tedious discourse of the seuerall names of this pretended regiment but that you might vnderstand how their tongues are deuided about such a trifle and thereby also perceaue the infancy or new birth of this fancy of theirs in that as yet they are not agreede howe to name the Childe If it fall out that it get the name of Senate what an honourable stile will this be Senatus populusque Romanus the Senate and people of Sainct Giles in the Fieldes and so of all other parishes in England CHAP. VII Of their vncertainty concerning the places where this pretended regiment should be erected MAister Cartwright and all his English followers that I haue read doe affirme it moste confidently that by the commaundement of God by the institution of Christ by the rules of Gods word and by the practise commandement of the Apostles There ought of necessitie to be an Eldership in euery parish in euery Congregation Church by Church in euery particular Congregation and not only in Cities but in all Churches in the Countrye and vplandish townes wheresoeuer there is a Pastor without the which Eldership euery such church or Congregation is to be accounted maymed vnperfect no entyre body 10 want the exercise of the principall offices of charity to be destitute of no small part of the Gospell of true Religion of Christs gouernment of the piller of truth and of all those priueledges profits which are assigned by them vnto the enioying of it Hereunto is fit to be added what they haue further written concerning this worde Church and howe they describe their said Parish The Church sayth Cartwright is eyther taken in the Scriptures for the whole body of the Catholique church or for one particular congregation or for the faythfull company of one house This one particular Congregation when it hath an Eldership placed in it they terme it the body of one particular Church and a perfect and vnmaymed body of Christ wherein the ministers of the word and the Elders are the eyes and the Deacons the handes without the which members though it may liue a while they confesse yet saie they it so pineth and wanteth that in the ende it will become a deade corpes vppon the grounde And for the quantitie of this body the dimensions of it or the description of such a particular Congregation or Parish as they speake of thus M. Cartwright squareth it out Euerye competent congregation and particular bodye of a church should haue hir parts in neighbourhood of dwellings wel trussed one with another Againe a Parish well bounded is nothing else but a number of those families which dwelling neere together may haue a commodious resorte and be at once taught with one mouth With these points of our English Eldership I meruell how their associates in other Countries will bee satisfied By the Discipline in Fraunce concluded vppon by fiue generall Synodes of the reformed Churches of that Realme It was agreed vpon that request should be made to the
at another time and when they haue forgotten themselues they will of purpose I feare it to abuse the worlde stand very much vppon the auncient fathers and bragge of their authoritie exceedingly As Cartwright doth in these words most vntruly We propound nothing saith he that the scriptures doe not teach the writers both olde and newe for the most part affirme and the examples of the primitiue Churches confirme Did euer any manne regard Cartwrightes credite who considering what hath beene noted out of his bookes in this whole processe doeth not pittie him with all his harte to heare him so farre to forget himselfe Hee is a manne of good learning which maketh mee to woonder at him It is surely great pittie that euer hee was so maried vnto his Eldershippe For it hath vtterly ouerthrowne all the good partes that bee in him The best lawyer that is when hee giueth himselfe to shiftes and to feed his clyentes with quirkes refusing not to brabble in anye cause be it neuer so false he looseth his estimation and with the grauer sort is little regarded Howe truely Maister Cartwright affirmeth that he and his fellows do propound nothing but that the old writers for the most parte doe affirme and the examples of the primitiue church confirme I trust it hath in part already appeared vnto you in sundry places but especially in the 5. as I saide and in the 27. Chapters I haue heard some Councellers at lawe vse the verye like course of speach when notwithstanding the cause hath falne out most directly against them yet they haue cried out Oh my Lord wee haue these and these olde euidences to shewe such and such depositions doe make for vs verye manifestly wee haue yet many witnesses to bee examined and thus they will proceed with many cracking wordes as though there had beene nothing which had made against them Is Cartwright able trowe you to finde his Parish Bishops and his counterfeit Lay-Elders which two pointes are in effecte all in all with him in the auncient fathers and primitiue Church Hee maye say as truely that the Sonne shines at midnight But yet hee sayth that Ignatius and Cyprians Bishops were but as our pastors or parsons arein euery parish For his vnministering Elders hee alledgeth the same Ignatius and Cyprian and for a surcharge hee bringeth in also Tertullian Hierome Possidonius and Socrates where they make mention of priests I was once purposed to haue set downe the places themselues which they so violently peruerte to bolster out such theyr apparaunt falshood and to haue aunswered them But then I remembred howe effectually that had beene done allready by diuers learned and woorthie menne and of late more fully and largely by two especiall persons whose books one of them is in printing and the other presently comming to the presse and therevpon I altered my mind in that point And yet something thereof agreeably to the course which hetherto I haue obserued that may peraduenture amaze some of them Vppon some occasion falling out maister Cartwright affirmeth that if the now Lord Arch-bishop of Canterbury had read the ecclesiasticall stories hee shoulde haue founde easiely the Eldership most florishing in Constantines time vz. in hauing then such Bishops and Elders as hee fancieth to himselfe For he must bee so vnderstood To whome replie being made that he should bring but one ecclesiasticall historie that affirmed so much after some three or fower yeares hee brought two vz. the historie of Magdeburge and Eusebius His testimony out of the first he setteth down in these words The centuries must needes haue told him that the same orders and functions of the church were in that time which were before And what would he inferre hereof Surely if hemeane honestly and doe not dally with the word before refering it further then the Centuries meant it which was but to the age that succeeded the Apostles he could not haue directed a man to any history now extant that doth more directly confound his assertion For there the authors of that history doe most plainely affirme that by and by after the Apostles death necessitas coegit personarum gradus aliquos constituere et conseruare necessity compelled the fathers then liuing to ordaine certaine degrees of persons in the church and to conserue them This is most directly against Cartwrights assertion although for mine own part to note it by the way I thinke the Apostles knowing the necessitie mentioned had taken that order before But to follow the said historie There were three degrees then ordained say the said authors vz. Episcopatus presbyterium Diaconatus the degree of Bishops of priesthood and of Deaconship For the proofe whereof they cite Ignatius Eusebius Theodoret c. and the very place of S. Ierome where he sheweth how for auoiding of schisme one was chosen amongst the ministers to haue preheminence ouer the rest and to whome the name of Bishop was peculiarly then attributed And as concerning the priests or Elders they doe shew it out of Eusebius Nicephorus Irenaeus Iustine c. that their office was to preach the Gospell and to administer the sacraments c. The Centuries thus we see will not serue M. Cartwrights turne to the iustifying of the florishing estate of his Eldership in Constantines daies I wil therfore come vnto his sec̄od authority which he bringeth out of Eusebius It is manifest saith he that the churches were gouerned vnder Constantine by Bishops Elders and Deacons by that which is recited of an infinit number of Elders and Deacons which came to the Councel of Nice with the 250. Bishops It is manifest indeede And it is also as manifeste that there were at that time both Archbishops and Patriarches But there were at that Councel both Bishops Elders and Deacons And what then I know that many men haue wrested many places directly contrarie to the authors meaninge but I doe not remember anie one place within the compasse of my small readinge that is more grosly peruerted then this place is For M. Cartwright running still his old biace would haue men to thinke that by Bishops Eusebius meant so many parishe-ministers and by priests or Elders his said counterfaite Aldermen And his authoritie is so greate amongest his sectaries who professe their Gleaninge after him that what-so-euer he bringeth they take it vpon his credit and so runne on with a conceite that not onely all other authorities brought by him out of the auntient Fathers mentioned are truely by him expounded and applyed but that also euen this place of Eusebius is to bee vnderstood as here he woulde haue it Wherein surely they are much to blame to depend so much vpon any mans credit If they them-selues had euer read either the Fathers or the ecclesiasticall histories they coulde neuer possibly haue beene miscarried so palpably A frinde of mine hauinge some talke not many yeares since with Maister Cartwright about this place of Eusebius
out by him wil needs persuade vs that by those elders that are meant in that place such like churchaldermen must be vnderstood as he and his fellowes hâ—ue dreamed of But herein he is not like to haue any good successe For Nicholas Gallasius a Geneuian to the vttermost who hath written a coÌ„mentary vpoÌ„ that booke doth hold it for a certaintie that such elders are vnderstood in that place as did rule the people doctrina et exemplo by doctrine and exaÌ„ple which should rather agree to those that were preachers then to Cartvvrights vntâ—aching elders If this interpretation notwithstanding shal â—ot be thought suâ—ficient to encounter with Cartvvrights then heare further two or three besides Pellicane Simlerus are both of opinion that neither Gallasius preachers nor Cartvvrights aldermeÌ„ are meant there by Moses but indeed such elders as were ciuile gouernors senators princes of the people And vnto these two for an â—speciall aduantage I may ad a surpassing testimony of no common person but such a one as will bring in with him a Rabbin to assist and maintaine as much as he will tell vs. Cornelius Bertram in his booke de politia Iudaica dedicated to Beza printed at Geneua 1580 with his approbation I doubt not writeth a whole chapter of purpose to proue that the said elders were ciuile magistrats Haebreos politiaÌ„ ciuileÌ„ c. That the Hebrewes had a ciuile gouernment in Egypt it appeareth because vvheÌ„ Moses vvas to go into Egypt he had a commandement froÌ„ God that he should go to the elders c. VVho sayth Bertrame vvere the rulers moderators and gouernours of that Aristocraticall common vvealth For the which his iudgement beside sundry reasons of his own there set down he alleageth also the testimonie of Aben Hezra So as now except Cartvvright or his adherents in this point shal hereafter find a more probable likelihood then hitherto he hath brought forth to shew vs their elderships to haue had their being afore the law of Moses both he they may shue the goose by these mens opinions for any helpe they are like to haue for that purpose out of any place in Exodus In very truth the circumstances of those places which he bringeth being conferred with that which is sayd of the same elders in the former chapter are so directly against him as I can but meruaile that euer he durst presume to set downe such a strange assertion vpon so senselesse and childish a supposall And now as concerning the second sort that content theÌ„selues to looke no further for their elderships then vnto Moses time for as much as they haue many mo shewes and pretenses to dim mens sights withall then the former sort haue yet inuented I will take an aduantage which is layd before me for the better opening vnto you of their iarres and disagreements about those places which are brought out of Moses and out of some other parts of the old testament Maister Beza acknowledgeth Caluin for his maister and doth euermore tearme him doctissimum interpretem the most learned interpreter And maister Cartvvright expresseth as much but yet more fully For hee sayth that maister Caluine is the notablest instrument that the Lord hath stirred vp for the restoring of the plaine and sincere interpretation of the scriptures which hath bene since the Apostles times In respect of which his excellencie as indeed he was a singular man maister Cartvvright in another place maketh this offer to all in effect that do not like well of the Geneua discipline VVe vvill not refuse sayth he the iudgement of maister Caluin in any matter that vve haue in coÌ„trouersie vvith you Here is surely a faire offer and no man can desire a more direct issue But thinke you a man might safely take it Who is so bold they say as blind baâ—ard Surely as blind as I am I will aduenture vpon it Shall euery thing indeed bee referred to maister Caluins iudgement very well This is then a controuersie betwixt vs. Maister Cartvvright and as many as cleaue vnto him do affirme that the eldership vvas ordained in practise before the lavv We denie it Let maister Caluin be the iudge So likewise I do say againe to as many as depend vpon maister Beza if they will ioine with vs in the same issue as reason is they should maister Caluin being their leaders maister and the most learned interpreter of the scriptures Beza and all such as are tied to his sleeue do hold it as I suppose as an infallible ground for discipline that Moses did institute this pretended eldership which we denie and let maister Caluin be the iudge A number of places are brought out of Moses bookes and out of the Chronicles and Prophets by Beza Cartvvright all their schollers for the proofe of such an eldership to haue bene in those times But we are fully resolued that all those places which they bring for that purpose are wrested from their right meaning and do constantly denie that there was euer any such eldership in being in those times And therein also wee say let maister Caluin be the iudge Although peraduenture there may be diuers that will refuse to stand vpon this triall as attributing more skill in the scriptures to Beza and to themselues then they do vnto maister Caluin yet Cartvvright is surely bound to stand to his offer Now then what Caluins iudgement is in all these points it is necessarie to be considered Surely you haue heard it before in the fift chapter The summe whereof is this that the sayd pretended eldership was neuer thought of in the world till after the captiuitie And the reason why then it was ordained he sayth was this vz. because it was not lawfull for them at that time to create a king As though he should haue said that if the Iewes might haue had a king according to their former custome in times past such a manner of gouernement had neuer bene once thought of Whereas therefore Beza Cartvvright and the rest that contend so eagerly for the Geneuian discipline do fill the margents of their bookes with sundry texts out of the old testament as out of Exod. 4.29 and 17.5 Deut. 1 15. and 17.12.2 Chr. 19.8 Iere. 19 1. Ezech. 8.1 c. where there is speech of elders senates and seates of iustice Maister Caluin you see hath giuen sentence against them and doth in effect with Erastus expound all those elders of the people all those consistories or senats for ought I can find to be ciuile officers and ciuile courts appointed for the ciuile gouernment of that people and nation Besides also in the place of Leuiticus concerning the priests office of putting a difference between the holy the vnholy between the cleane and the vncleane from which words maister Beza is enforced to set the institution and iurisdiction of his eldership maister Caluins exposition is there in like maner altogether against
him and wholy agreeth with Erastus mind vz. that therby Moses meaning was as it is word for word set downe by the prophet Ezechiel that the priests should teach the people out of the law what was holy what vnholy what cleane what polluted and that as Malachy saith the priests are and ought to be the interpreters of the law Now if maister Beza maister Cartvvright and the rest will stand to maister Caluins iudgement who is so excellent an interpreter of the scriptures what shall become of their eldership Neither Moses the Chronicles Ieremie nor Ezechiel can helpe thē and to haue Erastus expositions thus iustified and theirs reiected I suppose they will not indure it Their only shift then plea must needs be as I take it that first wher they extolled M. Caluin so highly for his interpretation of the scriptures their meaning was alwaies to except themselues and secondly as concerning their offer that they are yet content if we wil to refer it to M. Caluins iudgement whether there ought to be an eldership or not in euery parish Marrie for the proofes that must vphold it for the time of the institution of it and for such matters therin they will leaue him as neuer meaning to be iudged by him in those points which is as though the eye and the eare should say the one that it could see better the other that it could heare better then he himselfe that made both the eye and the eare Wel I am fully persuaded that if M. Caluin were now again at Geneua but for 3 or 4 daies and should find M. Beza with al his partakers Cartvvright Iunius the rest so mightily plunged for the maintenance of his deuise as that they shuld be driuē some of thē to run into Egypt some into the wildernes to mount Sinay some they know not whither and al of them to run so far out of his paths he would be greatly offended much amased at the matter could he take it in any good part that Beza specially being a man whō he had made such choise of to be a principal defender of the cōsistoriall discipline should by his intermedling with the gouernment of other churches haue pulled so many men vpon him as that for the defense of his own at home he should be driuē to seeke the first institution of it in Leuit. 10. v. 10. either there to hunt it out or to giue it ouer in the plaine field Surely there is great reason he should But what is that to me otherwise then that you thereby might be informed what constant hold their pretended holy elderships haue hither to found in the old testament and how they agree in the interpretation of such scriptures as should sustaine them Lastly as touching maister Caluins own opinion for the institution of his eldership after the captiuitie of the Iewes there doth not come into my memorie at this present any especiall place alleaged by him out of the scriptures to that purpose Neither do I find in him so much as that God did euer command this Sanedrim which hee speaketh of to be euer erected Only he sayth Hoc legitimū fuit Deoque probatū regimē They are a lavvful regimēt allovved of God Allowed of God not commanded I know that Cartvvright some others do bring for the cōtinuance of their pretēded elderships after the captiuitie certain places out of Ezra Nehemiah wher ther is mētion made of the cheefe of the fathers and of elders likewise of certain that stood by Ezra whē he preached to the people but the places are so apparantly wrested as no man that readeth them can be so dull but he must needs discerne it But I meruaile what maister Caluin meaneth when attributing to the Sinedriū or councel erected by the Iewes after their returne from Babylon Censuram morum doctrinae The censure of maners and doctrine In another place where he speaketh of the sayd constitution or erecting of it hee affirmeth that the 70 elders which vvere from time to time chosen to be of the Sanedrim vvere of the stocke of Dauid and of their former kings I hope they will not say that consequently their counterfeit elders ought all of them to be of the blood roiall But breefely for this matter of the Sanedrim or courts of iustice after the captiuitie I cannot iudge them to be any other then such courts and assemblies as were before ordained by Moses and had to do as well in ciuile caules as ecclesiasticall as it may at large appeare to those that will take the paines to read some part of doctor Sutclifs bookes whither for this time if they list I send them And so leauing any further to trouble you with this disciplinarie harmonie drawne by the eares out of the old testament I will come to the new Many things haue bene spoken of throughout the whole course of this booke which might be fit for this place as their iarring and disagreement in euery chapter almost hitherto which alwaies doth rise because that euery one of them in effect if he account himselfe to bee any body will writh and expound the scriptures as occasions serue and his affections do moue him The most of those places in the new testament that maister Caluin dooth expound of pastors and preachers only Beza Iunius Cartvvright and others of the disciplinarie mould and no men els do wrest and violently draw them vnto their Aldermen They forsooth are prophets to vvhom the spirits of other prophets must be subiect they are bishops for the feeding of Christs flocke Of their office it is sayd that he vvho desireth a bishopricke desireth a good vvorke That which S. Paule speaketh of himselfe as that he is a minister of the gospell and a vvitnesse appointed of those things vvhich he had seene vvhen the Lord appeared vnto him as he vvas going to Damascus Iunius will needs extend to these consistoriall companions Hereof you may see more in the sixt chapter where they ascribe vnto them all those names that since the Apostles times haue only bene giuen to the ministers of the word Maister Caluins authoritie is little regarded in this behalfe euen of those men who account him the best interpreter of the scriptures that euer was in the world these 1500 yeares Cartvvright being pressed sometimes with maister Caluins authoritie in expounding certaine places to be meant of pastors and ministers of the word where he will needs thrust in amongst them his Aldermen doth vse this wrangling shift viz. that although M. Caluin say that such ministers are there vnderstood yet he saith not that they only are there vnderstood By the which maner of euasion what can be spoken that may not be peruerted I do not remember that the scriptures do say in anie place that Christ had onelie twelue Apostles and then by Cartvvrights shift we may say he had as manie as we list
this side of the seas amongst vs. If Maister Caluin but especially maister Beza could haue been content to haue contained themselues within the limites either of Geneua or Fraunce to haue intermedled raigned there only and to haue vrged their platforme and deuise no further they might the better for vs in England haue been borne withall But nowe seeing they haue not so done who can be offended that I should make mention of it to the end that if they dealt amisse therein theyr examples and proceedinges might haue the estimation which indeed they deserue I omit how in K. Edwards time certaine malecontents grew vp in the Church of England because sundry matters might not bee ordered as they were at Geneua maister Caluin hauing written sundry letters into England to some suche like effect In Queene Maries time assoone as certaine of our Countreymen were come to Franckforde they were assaulted with the orders of Geneua Quarrels arising about the communion booke and forme of the seruice of England in Kinge Edwardes time there were particulars collected out of it by Knox Whittingham and such as had already tasted of that intoxication and sent to Geneua to bee censured by M. Caluin Who vpon the receit of them returned his answere concerning the sayde Booke compiled confirmed before by such men and such an authorititie as he ought to haue reuerenced In Anglicana Liturgia qualem describitis multas video fuisse tolerabiles ineptias I see that in the English forme of seruice as you describe it there were many tollerable foolleries When Knox and Whittingham had gotten this letter they published it to the Congregation Which being read it so wrought in the heartes of many sayth the discourser of the troubles at Franckford that they were not before so stoute to maintaine all the partes of the Booke of England as afterwardes they were bent against it If you haue Caluins Booke of Epistles I pray you reade it Although Beza thought it meete to be published in print yet shall you finde it to containe no one point of substance in it able to perswade a childe So as thereby you may iudge of their giddinesse who were moued so greatly with it When some of the sayd parties Whittingham diuerse others of a more violent humor came first to Franckford they fel also presently into a very especiall liking of the Geneua discipline as finding it to containe such rules and practices as did greatly concurre with their owne disposions In England poperie was restored and much crueltie vsed whereby they were constrained for the sauing of their liues to leaue their Countrye their liuings and theyr friendes In which case a man may easily gesse how acceptable these pointes were vnto some kinde of humors vz. that if Bishops and Princes refused to admit of the Gospell they might be vsed by their subiects as the Bishop of Geneua was vsed that is deposed and that euerie particular minister with his assistants according to the platforme of that discipline was himselfe a Bishop and had as great authoritie within his owne parish as any Bishop in the world might lawfully challenge euen to the excommunicating of the best aswell the Prince as the Pesaunt And indeede accordingly these positions as afterward it will appere were so pleasing to Whittingham and his consortes as it had beene a very meane forme of discipline I suppose that hauing such principles annexed vnto it wold at that time haue beene refused by them Howbeit many there were and that of the learnedest of those that then departed the Realme as Doct. Cox Doct. Horne M. Iewell with sundrie others who perceauing the trickes of that discipline did vtterly dislike it So as when they came afterwardes to Franckford they wholy insisted vppon the platforme of England and in short time obtayning of the Magistrates the vse thereof they did chose either D. Cox or D. Horne as I gesse or some such other as had beene of especiall account in K. Edwards time to be as it were their Superintendent For the bringing of which matter to passe one maister Clanbourge a chiefe magistrate in that Citie hauing shewed them some especiall fauour complaint was made thereof as it seemeth to M. Caluin Whereupon the sayde M. Clanbourg did write to him as it should appeare that he was induced to yeald to such a choyse the rather because the sayd Superintendent had some such like superior place in England before he came thither Vnto the which point maister Caluin that he might thrust his oare into euerye mans boat to disgrace the sayd platforme of England as much as lay in him and to incourage the factious company at Franckforde that were besotted with his pretended discipline did returne this answere If Beza hath set out his letter truely I would one point had beene omitted which was suggested vnto you I doubt not by that one partie I thinke he meaneth the sayd superintendent For otherwise it would neuer haue come into your cogitation as though he had still kept his whole estate in England to haue established his former ministerie there with you in a perpetuall possession of the authoritie therof Peraduenture there is nothinge that from the beginninge his meaninge is since the Englishemen came thither hath stired vp more contention or at the leaste displeasure so hath kindled strife then this emulation in that the greater part did thinke themselues to be thrust from their equall degree and to bee contumeliously excluded from the common societie if the Church which had receaued intertainment with you meaning the companie that had receiued his forme of discipline before the saide learned men came to Franckford should receaue their lawes from the other parte or side Within some short time after this that the sayd order of the English Church was established as you haue hard at Franckford diuerse of those men who had beene earnest for the Geneuian discipline deuided themselues from that Church as Whittingham Gilby Goodman and others and went to Geneua Where to the great discredit of the estate of the Church of England in Kinge Edwardes time to the greate griefe of such godly men and afterwardes worthy Martirs as remayned here in Queene Maries time in England and to the greate discouragement of sundry weake professors then also in England they reiected the whole forme of our English reformation the booke of common praier our seruice the order of our sacramentes and of all thinges els in effect there prescribed and conformed themselues altogether to the fashions of the Church at Geneua Where they had not beene longe when they had sucked and disgested the whole doctrine before mentioned to be as the appendants necessarily annexed to that forme of newe discipline and which was afterwardes enlarged by Beza as I take it Hotoman others of the disciplinarian humor in their bookes intituled De iure magistratuum c. Vindicia contra tirannos Franco-gallia c. The generall summe
haue not wanted the common affections of men Much trouble there was before their saide deuise was receaued which made them afterwardes the fonder of it We haue a saying that the Crow thinketh her owne birde the fairest and so doe men and women for the most part their owne children Nature doth therein beare sway with the best But especially she sheweth her force most in the fruicts of a mans mind For as our mindes ought to be more deare vnto vs then our bodies so are the fruites of our minds of greater account with vs then the fruites of our bodies Few men that we heare of will giue their liues for their children but many wee see will do it most readily in the maintenance of their opinions Which thinges considered I cannot but in some sorte excuse maister Caluin and maister Beza in seeking all manner of waies all shewes all shiftes all aduauntages that possibly they could either finde or deuise whereby they might iustifie in some sorte the birth and bringing vp of their misconceaued offpring The chiefest ouersight was in my opinion that other learned and wise men doe not well obserue these manner of naturall and common affections in them but were carried after them as it were with a whirlewind to like as they liked to say as they said and to doe as they did If maister Caluin and maister Beza affirmed it why it was inough I haue heard it credibly reported that in a certaine Colledge in Cambridge when it happeneth that in there disputations the authority either of Saint Augustine or of Saint Ambrose or of Saint Ierome or of any other of the ancient Fathers nay the whole consent of them all alltogether is alledged it is reiected with very great disdaâ—ne as what tell you me of Saint Augustine Saint Ambrose or of the rest I regard them not a rush were they not men Whereas at other time when it happeneth that a man of an other humor doth aunswere if it fall out that he beinge pressed with the authority either of Caluin or Beza shall chance to deny it you shall see some beginne to smile in commiseration of such the poore mans simplicity some grow to be angry in regard of such presumption and some will depart away accounting such a kinde of fellowe not worthy the hearing Were not this a pretty and pleasaunt Interlude or Comedy to behold such Parasites playing their partes so Disciplinarian-like And all these follies and dependances that the people haue doted so much after some kinde of Ministers that the inferior sort of those ministers haue taken all for currant coine that hath beene paide them by their superiors and that they the superiors haue beene also so farre ouercaried with the credite of the saide two persons all these follies I say did proceed from this fountaine that neither the people nor their rash seducers did in time put the holy Apostles rule in practise vz. try all thinges and keepe that which is good But it is better late then neuer Since men of all sorts haue entered more carefully into the triall of all the saide pretences together with the very substaunce of that their pretended holy platforme the furious rage of that floud hath beene pretily well diuerted And the very chiefe Captains themselues being vrged of necessity a litle to fall on searching haue found that which I feare they are sorry for and are become as it seemeth like men greatly amased to be at their wits end And now to this purpose I will tell you a wonder If Cartwright and his adherents were to beginne the course againe that they haue runne I am perswaded they would neuer tread so much as one steppe in it But nowe they haue engaged their credits they must shift thinges of aswell as they can and where their wards serue them not beare-of the blowes that shall fall vppon them with their heads and shoulders In the yeare 1572. as you haue heard in the former Chapter the first admonition was offered to the Parliament as containing a perfect platforme of the worthy pretended Discipline to haue beene established within this Realme Within a yeare or two after Cartwright taking in haÌ„d the defence of that platform did alter it in some points especially where it seemed to ascribe too much vnto the people And then if it bee true which is reported that one desiring vppon a time conference with him about these manner of causes he answered what neede you to talke with me you may haue my Bookes they are Est and Amen I doubt not but he would haue sworne vppon conuenient occasion that the admonitioners platforme so qualified by him was a most perfect patterne for all Churches Howbeit within a while after it proued not so For about the yeare 1583. where before the platfourme of Geneua as it was lefte at large in Cartwrigts Bookes had beene followed now there was a particular draught made for England with a newe forme of common Praier therein prescribed The yeare ensuing 1584. the seuen and twentith of her Maiesty out starteth this Booke with great glory at the Parliament time and forthwith the present gouernment of the Church with all the orders lawes and ceremonies thereof was to be cut-off at one blow and this new booke or platforme must needes be established But it preuailed not Shortly after that Parliament the saide booke and platforme was found amongest themselues to haue some thing amisse in it And the correcting of it was referred to Trauerse Which worke by him performed came out againe about the yeare 1586. when there was an other Parliament in the nine and twentieth of her maiesties raigne But it was then as I suppose seuered from the saide book of Common praier and become an entire worke of it selfe And then also at the saide Parliament there wanted not diuerse solicitors for the admittance of it Afterwardes a new conference was had againe about this seconde corrected booke For still there were some things out of square in it In the yeare 1588. at an assembly in Couentry these doubts which were growen were as it seemeth debated and so were many other Cartwright himselfe being present But which of the saide doubts in their platfourme were then resolued I find it not This appeared that some of them remained which they were not able to resolue vpon For although they then concluded that the platforme it selfe was an essentiall forme of Discipline necessary for all times subscribed vnto the practise of the greatest part of it without any further expecting the magistrats pleasure yet in theyr subscriptions they excepted some fewe points which were reserued to be discussed by certaine brethren in an other assembly Where this assembly was kept I canuot certainely affirme But it appeareth vppon deposition that the next yeare after there was one held in Sainct Iohns Colledge in Cambridge Where Cartwright being againe present and many moe besides diuerse imperfections in the saide
long they account it since it was in any good reparation saith plainely not as Cartwright affirmeth that it flourished most in Constantines time but thus we must needs confesse in deede that this gouernement of the Church fell to decaye long before the Councell of Nice But yet one step further after maister Cartwrights dubling where speaking in his second booke of the corruption as he tearmeth it that one Bishop had a preheminēce giuen him aboue other ministers which he cannot deny to haue been an ordinance in Alexandria from Saint Marks time c. he saith from the first day wherein this deuise was established corruption grew in the Church c. And the first resistance by any setled Church against that corruption was by those that abolished that deuise of man and receaued the order in the Apostles times touchinge the equality of Ministers as the Bohemians Merindols the Churches in Germany and Geneua See what carieers are here From Geneua to the Apostles times and thence backe againe to Geneua at a leape From Saint Markes time till the time here limited the pretended Presbitery with all the complements thereof as nowe it is vrged hath lyen alla-mort No one setled Church that is in Cartwrightes language no one particular parish in all the world for a 1500. yeares did euer account it vnlawfull for a Bishop to haue authority aboue other Ministers Or thus there hath not bin vpō the face of the earth within the space of a thou sand fiue hundred yeares so much as in any one parish such an equality amongest the Ministers of the worde of God as is now pretended to be in the Presbitery at Geneua and so consequently in all that tyme not suche a Presbitery Or thus within the compasse of the Heauens there hath not beene one Church for aboue 1500 yeares that euer dealt so with Bishops as of late they haue beene dealt withall especially in Geneua and in some other such places as haue followed therein the example of that Citty Well hitherto then you see that since we came from Geneua vz the yeare 1541. the men themselues that talke so much of their Geneua platforme cannot finde it flourishing in the daies of all the auncient fathers nor in all the world for the space of aboue 1500. yeares The fathers alas some of them were but simple men some were ambitious and some were ignoraunt They poore men had small experience and lesse pollicie They wanted iudgement and zeale either to discerne or to keepe in her virginitie this gallaunt Dalila They chopped and chaunged the institution of Christ at their pleasure Any examples that shall be fet from them are very dangerous They were but men But if you will leape ouer all them and come to Geneua there you shall finde wise men learned men humble men zealous men nay rather Angelles then men there you shall see the glorious rankes of Elders sitting vppon their thrones the worshipfull company of Deacons attending vpon the contributions the well Disciplined multitude bringing in the price of their lands and goods and powring all downe at the Deacons feete there Christ carrieth hys owne scepter in Bezaes hand there this pretended holy Discipline so disgraced by the fathers so corrupted and so defaced there she raigneth there shee flourisheth and there she is magnified The Church of Geneua saith a good fellow is the purest reformed Church forsooth in Christendome Againe Geneua is the chiefest place of true comfort in Earth Now what is here said of Geneua and her Ministers except you extend it to all other Churches and Ministers that follow the Geneua platforme they will be angry with you and thinke themselues as I suppose to be very greatly disgraced But I will leaue them clawing one of another and come to the Apostles times to see if the Geneua Church-gouernment may be found out amongest them For either there or no where The Apostle Saint Iohn liued much longer then any of the rest of the Apostles did Saint Ierome saith that he liued after Christes passion threescore eight yeares So as the Apostles times after the largest accompt are not further to be extended Now as Baronius collecteth out of Eusebius Saint Marke was Bishop of Alexandria about 19. yeares and died about the thirtith yeare after Christes ascention So as Saint Iohn out-liued Saint Marke some 38. yeares After this reckoning if the Church of Alexandria should haue departed from Christes institution and so cleane haue disgraced the glory of this fained Eldership when there was a Bishop made there according to Cartwrightes assertion then before wee can finde the Geneua platforme in such perfection as it is in that Citie we must cut of the said 19. yeares wherein Saint Marke had departed so grossely from Christes ordinance from the before mentioned 68. yeares the full extent of the apostles time which being done you haue but eleuen yeares wherein there is any hope for the pretended puritie and practise of the Geneua Discipline to shadow or shrowd her selfe Yea but where Saint Ierome saith that there were Bishops in Alexandria from Saint Markes time c. Cartwright hath this shift vz that the wordes from Saint Marks time may be taken exclusiuely to shut out Saint Marke Whereby to saue Saint Markes credite that an Euangelist should not be thought to haue broken the necke of Christes gouernement he woulde haue this great defection to haue been presently after Saint Markes time and so hee excludeth Saint Marke after the Geneua fashion quite and cleane out of his Bishopricke and will needes suppose that hee was neuer Bishop contrary to Saint Ieromes expresse wordes in sondrie places and contrarie to the full consent and agreement of all the auncient fathers and of all the ecclesiasticall histories But be it as hee would haue it yet let the reckoning be newly cast vp againe and it falleth out that this supposed departing from Christes institution was about thirtie and eight yeares before S. Iohn died Which standeth hardly with the reputation of the Apostles times in my opinion But that is no great matter We know saith the authour of the foresaide booke that was sent vs from Scotland Diotrephes to haue been in the Church euen in the Apostles times and we are assured he could neuer be gotten out of it since the first houre that he set his footing therein And therefore we cannot greatly maruaile though euen in their time there had been a diuerse gouernment from this of the Lordes appointment which we labour for For euen in the Apostles times the mistery of iniquitte beganne to worke And what will they say of Saint Iohn the Apostle and of all the rest of them that out-liued Saint Marke as they haue done of all the auncient fathers was there so small intelligence amongst those most prouident and wise holy men that there could be so notorious a defection in Alexandria so famous a Citie and they neuer to heare of it Or
the gouernement that Christ appointed Christ appointed the Iewes Sanedrim to be in euery parish the Iewes Sanedrim was corrupted and therefore we are now sent from Geneua to Moses to vnderstand what he wil say vnto vs of this matter Was there euer any forme of gouernement that hath had so euill fortune A gouernement so long since ordayned not to continue for the time of the law onely but euen vnto the worldes end and neuer to be in such vse as it ought to haue been except it were for some eleuen or some 38. yeares and not that neyther vntill this our age that Geneua hath refined it Miranda canunt sed non credenda poëtae They tell vs wonders But because wee must be carried so farre let vs see indeede the institution of it I trust that point will be made most manifest vnto vs. Therefore I would desire to know where the Lord did institute this their ecclesiasticall Senate The effect of Bezaes aunswere if I haue iudgement to gather it is this Iehosophat appointed such a kinde of Senate in his time Mosis proculdubio praescriptum sequutus following proculdubio without doubt the prescript of Moses And where learned Iehosophat that prescript Had he it out of Moses written bookes or by tradition what must the beginning of this so singular a regiment proceed from a tradition But it may be saide that although it cannot bee shewed in Moses where or when it was instituted yet you shall finde in the tenth of Leutticus the iurisdiction of it plainly set forth which argueth manifestly that there was such a regiment before that time instituted by Moses It is well said Let vs then see the place The wordes are these And the Lord spake to Moses saying thou shalt not drinke wine nor strong drinke thou nor thy sonnes with thee when yee come into the tabernacle of the congregatiō c that ye may put difference betweene the holy and the vnholy and betweene the cleane and the vncleane and that ye may teach the children of Israell all the statutes which the Lord hath commaunded them by the hand of Moses Here saith maister Beza Synedrij ecclesiastici iurisdictio manifestissimis verbis a ciuili distinguitur the iurisdiction of the ecclesiastical Senate is most plainly distinguished from the ciuile And againe Dico his paucis verbis declarari quaecunque tunc erant verè 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nempe inter sanctum prophanum inter mundum immundum discernere legem domini docere ac proinde iudicare de controuersijs ob eas causas exortis I doe affirme it that in these fewe wordes are set downe what causes soeuer were in those daies rightly accompted spirituall that is to say to discerne betweene the holy and vnholy the cleane and the vncleane and to teach the law of the Lord. Of this exposition in another place We are yet dealing with the pedigree of this gouernment Heereunto therefore this is obiected Let this interpretation go a while as currant yet heere is no mention of any other to exercise this iurisdiction but onely of Aaron and his two sonnes Where are then their gouerning Elders What is become of them How chaunceth it that they are not mentioned To this maister Beza writing of his ecclesiasticall regiment sayth Erant Leuitae in Synagogis penes quos adhibitis vt probabile est aliquibus illustribus ciuibus erat spiritualis administratio There were Leuites in euery Synagogue who hauing ioyned in commission with them certaine chiefe Citizens as it is probable had the administration of all spirituall causes And least you should thinke that maister Beza his probabile est were no good warrant to build so great a matter vppon you shall heare what accompt it carrieth in Geneua There came out from thence not long agone a booke translated since into English and printed in Scotland tearmed so interpreted Propositions and Principles of Diuinitie Amongest the which principles in my latine booke these are three vz It appeareth in Moses booke that as Moses with his 70. did exercise his ciuile iurisdiction so Aaron with his assistants priestes and Leuites had chiefe authoritie in the ecclesiasticall 2. And furthermore there were amongest the Iews certain men whom they called capita patrum the heads of the fathers c. quos verisimile est fuisse etiā Synedrij ecclesiastici partes c. who were parts it is likely of the ecclesiastical Councell 3. Constat ergo in ecclesia Iudaica fuisse huic ordini ecclesiastico cōstitutos rectores It is manifest therfore that in the churches of the Iewes these men were assigned and ioyned to the said Priestes and Leuites to be rulers and gouernors Verisimile est it is likely constat ergo therefore it is manifest As though a man should reason thus It is probable that these men that dare thus abuse the worlde haue made a shipwracke of their consciences therefore it is manifest that they haue done so Vnto how many kinges princes Countries and states hath maister Beza written for the aduauncement of this his pretended gouernement What petitions supplications demonstrations motions admonitions discourses complaints and I know not what haue been published amongest vs in England to the same effect And is all now come to this point probabile est Can Beza himselfe finde no other ground for his Elders Doth it depend but vpon likelihoodes and probabilities by your owne confessions whether almightie God did euer as yet institute any such gouernment or not But to passe by Beza with his probabile est and to come to maister Cartwright another manner of fellow He it seemeth doth account maister Beza to be but a simple man in respect of himselfe in that he deemed the Eldership to be of no longer continuance then since Moyses time This gouernement saith he by the Eldership was taken from the gouernement of the people of God before the Lawe And it beganne as soone as there is any mention made of anye fixed forme of a Church which standing of diuerse housholdes were deuided into particular assemblies Beza is then you see deceaued who said that Moyses did institute the Eldership It was long you heare before his time Did I not tell you we should be brought in effect to Noahs Arke But let vs consider of his proofe that maketh him so peremptory in this point You shall not finde him so loose I trust as to dash vs in the teeth with probabile est Ineuitable demonstrations or nothing from him Forsooth saith he it is thus written in Exodus 4. So Moises and Aaron went and gathered all the Elders of the children of Israell and Aaron tolde all the wordes which the Lord had spoken to Moyses c. And what then Indeede that would be heard for as yet this point runneth harshly But saith Cartwright that these were Ecclesiasticall officers thereby it may appeare for that vnder such a tiraunt and such
you of vs or least those things which we haue written of Ecclesiasticall policie properly against that Antichristian tyrannie as necessitie required are taken by some in that sense as if euer we had meant to compel to our order those churches that thinke otherwise then we doo of it and the gouernors of them agreeing els with vs in the truth of doctrine agreeable to the word of God and that except they followed our order we accounted otherwise of them then their godlines and dignitie and mutuall brotherhood doth require c. Farre be this arrogancie from vs. Quis vllum nobis in vllam Ecclesiam imperium tribuit Who doth giue vs authority ouer anie church Far be it from vs that we should thinke so the substantiall matters be kept there ought nothing to be graunted to antiquitie nothing to custome nothing to the circumstances of places times and persons c. Againe in his booke against D. Sarauia hauing spoken of the tyrannie of Popish Bishops hee maketh this exception Neque tamen But wee doo not therefore accuse all Archbishops and Bishops now so called of tyranie For what arrogancie were that Nay so as they doo imitate the examples of the olde holy Bishops and indeuor as much as they can to reforme the house of God so miserably deformed according to the rule of Gods word why may we not acknowledge al of them now so called Archbishops and Bishops obey them and honor them with all reuerence So far we are from that which some obiect vnto vs most falsly and most impudently as though we tooke vppon vs to prescribe to anie Church in anie place our examples to be followed like vnto those vnwise men who account wel of nothing but of that which they doo themselues And to the same effect a little before If now the reformed Churches of England being vnderpropped with the authoritie of Bishoppes and Archbishops do continue as this hath happened to that Church in our memorie that she hath had men of that calling not onely most notable martyrs of God but also excellent pastors and doctors Fruatur sane ista singulari dei benificentia quae vtinam illi sit perpetua Let her truly inioy this singular blessing of God which I wish may be perpetuall vnto her Furthermore it should seeme that Zanchius as moderate and learned a man as euer fauoured the pretended Elderships was appointed some 12 or 16. yeres since to draw a confâ—ssion of religion for the Churches of France others as Melanchthon had done the Augustan confession for Germanie Accordingly hee drew it and in the same speaking of Bishops he vseth these wordes Non improbamius patres c. Wee doo not disalow the fathers in that after a diuers waie of dispensing the word and gouerning the Church they multiplied diuerse orders of Ministers seeing it was lawfull for them so to do as it is vnto vs and seeing it appeareth that they did it for honest causes appertaining at that time to the order decencie and edification of the Church And in the next article Hac ratione c. By this reason vz. that the nurseries of dissentions and of schismes may be taken away wee thinke that these thinges which were ordained before the Councell of Nice concerning Archbishops nay as touching the foure Patriarches may be excused and defended When this booke was perused and this clause found in it then forsoth a deuise was had for the staying of it vnder pretence that now it was thought more meete that there should be a harmonie made of all the confessions of diuers churches But Zanchius himselfe maketh this the chiefe cause if I vnderstand him why his booke dyd mislike some of them for that hee had written as before is mentioned of Bishops For so hee sayth Magnus quidam vir c. A certaine great man meaning Beza as it is supposed did write vnto mee of this matter as followeth Your confession was read by mee and N. others with great delight It is written most learnedly and in a most exquisite methode and if you except that which you adde towards the end touching Archbishops and the Hierarchie mihi summopere placuit it pleased mee exceedingly Vpon this occasion as it seemeth Zanchius printed his said confession with certaine annotations In the which annotations he sheweth three reasons for his allowance of Archbishops Bishops The first is grounded vpon the practise of the primitiue church presently after the Apostles times the second is for that hee thought it his dutie in the draught of his said booke to haue regard to those reformed churches which retaine both Bishops Archbishops and the third because all the reformed Churches generally although they haue chaunged the names yet in effect they doe keepe the authoritie as where they haue superintendents and generall superintendents Nay saith he where these new base Latine names are not admitted Ibi tamen solent esse aliquot primarij penes quos fere tota est authoritas yet there are in those places vsually certaine chiefemen that doe in a manner beare all the sway But I pray you be pleased that I may deliuer vnto you the maner of his setting down of his first reason and that in his owne words for they carry with them a notable condemnation of other mens great pride rashnes Cum haenc conscriberem fidei confessionem c. When I writ this confession of faith I writ all the thinges in it of a good conscience and as I beleeued so I freely spake the scriptures teaching men so to doe And my faith first of all and simply doth rely vpon the word of God then somewhat also vpon the common consent of the whole ancient Catholicke Church if the same bee not repugnant to the scriptures For I beleeue that what thinges were defined and receiued by the auncient Fathers assembled in the name of the Lord with a generall consent of them all and without any contradiction of the holy Scriptures the same surely although they be not of the same authoritie with holy Scriptures yet did they proceed from the holy Ghost Heereof it commeth to passe that those things which are of this nature neither would I neither dare I with a good conscience disallow them And what can be shewed more certainly out of histories out of the councels out of the writings of all the ancient fathers then that those orders of Ministers of the which we haue spoken haue bene ordained and receiued in the Church by the generall consent of all christian common-wealths And who then am I that should presume to reproue that which the whole Church hath approued This is true and religious humilitie Thus all graue and discreet godly men haue euerwritten Those that contemne all the learned Fathers that went before them doe open a windowe to their owne discredite by those that shall come after them That which this godly and great learned man ascribeth to the
or Church-rulers They that dare propound such ridiculous things as these are defend thē may say maintaine what they list Shomakers Peuterers Barbers Pinners Pointers Painters being chosen to be of this synagogue to become presently therby our pastors leaders watchmē of our souls Christs vicars Gods prelats Bishops Archbishops continuing their occupations hauing nothing to doe with the word sacraments would haue been accounted by all the auncient Fathers to haue beene rather the conceit of some frantike madde men than of any that had either learning or iudgement CHAP. XII They cannot agree where to find their Elders qualities described I Thinke it can hardly be shewed in the scriptures that God himselfe did euer ordaine any speciall officers either ecclesiastical or ciuill but he likewise appointed what maner of men they should bee in respect of their abilities and vertues for their faythfull discharging of them Which maketh mee more than to suspect that these pretended Elders for all the outcries made in their behalfe to be indeed but counterfaits in that they cannot agree among themselues where they are described The forme of praier made at Geneua and practised in Scotland and with diuers alterations offered not long since to haue beene by parliament established in England others that follow them do thus describe them The Elders must bee men of good life and godly conuersation without blame and all suspition carefull for the flocke wise and aboue all things fearing God And for all these qualities the chiefe place alledged as I thinke is out of Numbers where it is saide That God appointed Moses to choose 70. men of the Elders of Israell to beare the burthen of the people with him which Moses hauing performed the Lord according to his former promise tooke of the spirite which was in Moses and put it vpon the 70. ancient men when the spirit rested vpon them they prophecied and did not cease Out of which words I find nothing for thē except they wil haue them Prophets But I do here dispute nothing let thē speak for thēselues Welsurely then saith a discouerer of vntruths that came lately from Scotland They are ignoraunt in the cause of Christes gouernment that will affirme these were Ecclesiasticall officers The very place it selfe and all the circumstances thereof doe prooue them ciuile And where it is said that the seuenty Elders prophecied it can no more prooue them to belonge to the gouernement of the Church then the like gift bestowed vpon Saul can make him a Church officer Bannosius he relieth not vppon the booke of Numbers for this matter but if you will be content with Exodus he can fet thē thence with a wet finger marry you must haue it by way of collection Si ex praecepto Domini c. If by the Lords commandement the gouernours of the common wealth of the Hebrewes were men of courage fearing God men dealinge truely hating coueteousnes multo magis tales esse debent Presbyteri c. Much more these Elders ought to be such valiant men In good time And other place out of the old Testament for this purpose he nameth not any which sheweth he was brought to a very low ebbe There is a description of the visible Church which they say was printed at Rochell Wherein these Elders are thus described They must be of iudgment and wisedome endued with the sprite of God able to discerne betweene cause and cause betweene plea and plea c and to that end besides the place of Numbers mentioned they quote another out of the Chronicles where Iehosophat speaking of the iudges of the high Court for all causes at Ierusalem saith thus shall yee doe in the seat of the Lord faithfully and with a perfect heart and in euery cause that shall come vnto you from your brethren that dwell in theyr cities betweene bloud and bloud betweene lawe and precept statutes and iudgement yee shall iudg them Where I note the warines of these fellowes in attributing vnto their Elders Commission to discerne betweene cause and cause plea and plea that they leaue out purposely betweene bloud and bloud c. For the which Beza will not giue them any thankes at all hauing deuised a tricke as after it shall appeare how they may deale in those matters aswell as in the other Indeed in all alike But this place rather serueth to shew their opinions what causes the Elders are to be Iudges in then to describe their qualities otherwise then that they must be faithfull men They will play smal play befor they sit out And thus you haue what they bring to this end for ought I finde out of the old Testament with such good agreement as hath beene declared Which causeth me to imagin that the Lord neuer thought of any such officers in the time of the Law For if he had Moses surely in mine opiniō would haue described their qualities aswell as he did the 70. Iudges and other officers to diuers purposes by him appointed and not haue lefte them especially such noble Prelates and Cherubins to be described in this sort hit I misse I by gesse But peraduenture there are more pregnant places in the new Testament to supply some want in Moyses whereuppon they doe iumpe with one consent and good agreement together I would be glad to see that but he liueth not I am perswaded that shall euer see it When proude men dissent they are hardly reconciled in matters of wit and learning Let vs try them The qualities required to bee in an Elder are sette downe by the Apostle in the Epistle to Titus saith Bannosius and some others in these wordes thus in effect An Elder must be vnreprouable the husbande of one wife hauing faithfull children which are not slaundered of riotte neyther are disobedient not frowarde not angry not giuen to wine no striker not giuen to filthy lucre but harbarous one that loueth goodnesse wise righteous holy temperate c. Nay sayth Caluin though there be two kindes of Elders yet contextus statim ostendit hic non alios quà m Doctores intelligi hoc est qui ad docendum ordinabantur The Text doth shew that here no other are to be vnderstood but Doctors that is those that were ordayned to teach With Bannosius agreeth Iunius and with Caluin Cartwright So that as yet we haue no certainty But let Beza be heard and then all shall be well You shall heare both Beza and Iunius iointly They are out of all doubt that where the Apostle in his Epistle to Timothy doth describe the qualities which are required in a Bishop there also and in the same wordes he setteth out the Elder in like maner For that the word Bishop doth cōprehend in that place both a Minister of the word and the ruling Elder also Now then we haue him and because we haue beene so long seeking for him you shall haue him at
to their consultations what course they were best to take for their owne credits proceed to the qualities wherewithall they affirme that their Elders by the worde of god must needes be indued Chap. XV. Their vncertaintie where to find the particular offices of theyr Aldermen FOr my better enterance into this poynt followinge I will beginne with some of their owne groundes Thea gouernment of the church saith Martin must be by these officers and offices alone and by no other which the Lord hath set downe and limited in his word And the demonstrator Corah Datha◠and Abiram were punished hauinge no warrant of that they tooke in hand A very good caueat for their Elders Let vs then see what those particular duties are which they ascribe vnto them But here you must vnderstand that euery parish is to be deuided into seuerall Tribes according to the number of their Elders euery Elder hauing one of them assigned vnto his charge And their office is if any thinge be done amisse priuatly within their compasses to reproue or correct the offenders priuatly but if the offender be obstinate or the offence publick they must bring them to the Eldership Secondly they must know euery house and particular person in the parish that they may enforme the ministers of their estate If any straūger come to dwell within their seuerall tribes they must signifie the same vnto the pastor that hee may examine his religion Thirdly if any infants are to be baptised they must likewise giue the pastor notice therof Fourthly at the time of the communiō they must all ioyntly see that no excommunicate persons come into the church likewise helpe and assist the pastor at Geneua the Elder ministreth the cuppe take heede that none come to the Lords table whose religion and honesty should not be knowen vnto them and with whom the pastor and Doctor should not haue dealt before In general tearmes their whole duety is to helpe to informe and to aide the pastors and Doctors to haue a vigilant eye to the obseruation of all such ceremonies lawes and orders as they themselues with their fellow Senators should constitute and ordaine Now surely it were a goodly fight I haue occasion often to repeate it to see the noblemen and gentlemen of England discharginge all these duties in their owne persons and especially ministringe the cuppe at the holy communion In what reputation shoulde the ministers be that shoulde haue such eyes such aiders such informers What would the people thinke you say when they should see these noble men and gentlemen come to the Pastors with their caps in their hands seuerally saying May it please you Sir there is a stranger come lately to dwell within my Tribe another there is a childe to be Baptised within my tribe another this and that fellow are obstinate persons within my Tribe and altogether if they know any that presumed to come to the Communion Oh Sir here is a fellow you haue not spoken withall and when I say the people shoulde see these things c. on the other side likewise perceaue and heare their Ministers as I imagine giue a nodde with their heads and aunswere vnto them very well yee haue done your duties and we commend you for it bring this take away that c would they not fall downe think you and worship these Rabbies But you must remember alwaies that they hate superiority Equality that is it which pleaseth them Indeede they talke of an equality amongst themselues but otherwise they affect no small superiority ouer all men besides Well it is meete we should now consider what proofe they haue for all these particular dueties out of the word of God And here I pray you first of all remember that Beza is brought to this issue that whether there were any such Elders at all euer instituted by Moises from whom they fette them or not he hath nothing else to say but probabile est it is probable there were such And muche to the same effect it is that he bringeth for their seuerall offices For speaking of them especially besides that he nameth onely this one office as finding no others in the old Testament vz. that the duety of the chiefe rulers of the Synagogues was non admittere ad Synagogas quos Hierosolomitanum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 indicasset not to admit them to the Synagogues whome the Councell at Ierusalem had cast out he bringeth but this simple demonstration for the proofe of it Horum proculdubio partes fuerunt out of doubt it was their partes thus to doe Proculdubio probabile est out of doubt it is probable Notable proofes Whosoeuer will take the paines to reade that parte of his Booke de Presbyterio shall finde little else in it but his probabilities and groundlesse assertions Sauing that he further saith there is mention made in the new Testament of gouernors and ruling Elders which we deny with all the ancient fathers to haue any relation to their deuised Elders and thereupon whatsoeuer hath beene thought meete to be the office of rulers is ascribed belike at Geneua vnto them The treatise is surely vnworthy such a mans as maister Beza would be accounted And vppon the like conceipt also our Englishe Reformers haue taken vppon them to set downe all the former duties mentioned of their Elders not that they find them in the word of God but because they fit their turnes and doe account them necessary to set vp their own kingdom For proofe whereof I wil only trouble you with one mans authority but that shall be authenticall both with the brotherhood of England and also with them of Geneua where the book for the excellency of it hath been reprinted The author of that booke hauing at large described the said duties with a kind of so forth alia huiusinodi so as they may adde more when they list the force of truth doth wringe from him these words First that all these said duties speciatim in Scripturis non exprimantur are not specially expressed in the Scriptures Why then let your Elders remēber your former rule least for vsurping such offices as they haue no warrant for out of the word of God they perish with Corah Dathan and Abiram Yea but saith he though the Scriptures doe not expresse them yet that there should bee suche Archrulers with these offices as were in veteri Iudoeorum Ecclesia in the old Church of the Iewes it greatly tendeth ad ordinem decorum vtilitatem fructum Ecclesi◠to the order decency profite and fruit of the Church And what if this be denied or who shall iudge whether they be so profitable or not or when will they prooue that the duties mentioned did belong to the Archsynagogians And yet for all these vncertainties or as Cartwrights terme is meere beggeries he proceedeth to another Consistorian demonstration There are no other Elders mentioned in the Scriptures to whont these so
exhorting ruling prouision for the poore and attendance vnto them all which no man in his wits wil deny to be perpetuall and in these expressely they which haue the giftes are commaunded to abide and to content themselues with them Wherefore c. These men you see must either haue their Widdowes or else all is marred And haue them they will if distinguishing similitudes diuiding sillogismes and logicke will get them And besides you may perceiue what most vehement patheticall and peremptory men they are in this behalfe Howbeit you shall finde that other men nay whole Churches for all this heat are of another opinion and withall such men and Churches as neither the defender discourser nor sermoner nor all the priuate disciplinarye conuenticles in England will presume in any sort to compare themselues vnto them Maister Beza doth not thinke the hauing of Widdowes to be such an ordinary and perpetuall institution as it hath beene pretended For at Geneua not such a Widdow if you would giue a pounde for her And yet that platforme is either perfect by this time or else there hanges some curse ouer it But this I am sure of that he who durst take vppon him to tell them in Geneua that by their omission of these Widdowes they haue cruelly wounded the body of Christ they had like desperate ruffians cut of one of his members and that in these respectes the forme of their Disciplinary regiment is maimed and deformed might peraduenture repente him of it Indeede either I am very much deceiued or els this dreame of widdowes beginneth to vanish The very principall nay the onely place vz. Hee that sheweth mercy with cheerefullnesse wherevpon they haue hitherto builte to proue them to be such Church-officers as they haue imagined them to be is boldly and with mayne strength wrested out of their handes notwithstandinge that Maister Caluin M. Beza and M. Cartwright had layde as fast hold vpon it as they could Or peraduenture I might rather say that the two which bee aliue seeing their tenure was nought haue willingly giuen it ouer The Champion I meane that hath done this great deede is Maister Trauers Who writeth of this pointe after this sorte That which followeth of him that sheweth mercy nullum certe munus ecclesiae indicare puto c. I thinke it meaneth not any certaine office but what duety the whole Church ought to shew in relieuing the poore Thus farre and further Maister Trauers in his Latine booke as if you will peruse the place you shall perceiue But you must remember that I doe referre you to his Latine booke and not to the Englishe translation of it Why some may say is it not faithfully translated Shall we thinke that such zealous men as had to deale therein would serue vs as the Iesuites doe It is wee know a practise with that false hypocriticall broode to leaue out and thrust in what they list into the writinges of the ancient Fathers that thereby in time nothing might appeare which shoulde any way make against them But wee will neuer suspect nor belieue that any man who feareth God and least of all that any of that sorte which are so earnest against all abuses and corruptions shoulde play vs such a prancke Surely yee doe well to iudge the best and I my selfe was of your opinion But nowe I am cleane altered How were some of Vrsinus workes vsed at Cambridge And it is true that some other Bookes haue beene handled very strangely else-where But concerning the present point this is the trueth The translator of Trauerses Booke hath quite omitted the wordes which I haue alleadged and all the rest that tendeth to that purpose euen seuenteene lines together So as if you see but the Englishe Booke you shall not finde so much as one steppe whereby you might suspect that euer Maister Trauerse hadde carried so harde a hande ouer the pretended Widdowes If the translator had receaued any Commission from the author to haue dealt in that sorte with his Booke yet it shoulde haue beene signified eyther in some Preface or in some note or by some means or other but to leaue such a matter out and to giue no generall warning of it I tell you plainely it was greate dishonesty and lewdenesse It were better for them to giue ouer their platformes in the plaine field then to seeke to maintaine them with such apparaunt falshoods Well let them take their course and yet all theyr sleightes will not preuaile But the Translator or Councellor or peruser one or moe or how many soeuer they were but all of them sottes if they thought by such their corruption to bolster vp the credite of theyr Widdowe Church-gouernours For it is euident in my iudgement that eyther most of their owne men doe beginne to come to Maister Trauerses opinion before mentioned or else that generally it is helde by them that the first ordaining of Widdowes was but for a time neuer meant to be an ordinary and perpetuall institution to continue for euer In Geneua as I saide there are no such Widdowes Scotlande in their approued Booke after the Geneua fashion doth not once thinke of them The Synodicall constitutions for the Presbyteriall platforme of all the French Churches doe make no mention of them The generall Councell of Hage and so all the Low Countries haue wholly forgotten them in their decrees and Canons In the platforme and newe Communion Booke which was offered once or twise to the high Courte of Parliament in Englande concerning these Widdowes there is nothing but silence Whereas also there hath beene great paines taken of later yeares amongest the Disciplinary brotherhoode and many meetinges and Synodes helde about another more particular draught of Discipline for this Realme till at the last they haue subscribed vnto it to bee a necessary platforme for all places and times yet you shall not finde that they haue spoken so much as one word of those Widdowes Whereuppon I conclude that their cause is desperate and so I leaue both them and their patrons with all their contrarieties vncertainties and wranglings about them and will come to the consideration of another materiall point vz. what charge this Consistoriall deuise doth bring with it to euerie parish CHAP. 20. Of the charge to bee imposed vpon euery parish by meanes of the pretended Eldership BY the common account of our disciplinarie deuises there are diuers ecclesiasticall persons to be maintained in euerie Parish Nowe there is but one in most places the Parson or the Vicar and God knoweth in manie parishes their intertainment is full bare But admit of the Consistoriall Senate in euery parish and then consider howe they shall bee charged First the current assertion is That in euerye Congregation there must bee a Pastor but the learned Discourser sayth there should bee two at the least Then they must haue a Doctor And for Elders they maie bee moe or fewer as the circuite of the Parish is
Except Maister Bezaes collection prooue to bee authenticall and then their number will bee greate You haue hearde that wee must haue the forme of the Iewes Sanedrim or Counsell in euerie Parish And in that sayth Beza there were twentie foure Ecclesiasticall Iudges By which account abating the Pastor and the Doctor there ought to bee two and twentie Elders in euerie parish You shall heare Bezaos wordes and how heegathereth that there was such a number There is mention made in the Apoca. of a throne vppon the which Christ sitteth and of the foure and twenty Seates about it whereupon foure twentie Elders sate who were cloathed in white rayment and had on their heades Crownes of golde Now sayth Beza concerning the said number mentioned of ecclesiasticall Iudges 24. numero fuisse c That they were in number 24. that is to saie two of euery Tribe it seemeth it may be gathered out of the Apocalyps where certum est it is certaine that those heauenly visions were framed or accommotated to the forme of the Israeliticall Church Where by the way it would be obserued what a glorious church-regemēt we are in time to looke for Our Elderships must be framed after the fashion of the Elderships which were amongst the Iewes And if we doubt of the state and forme of the Iewes elderships we must haue recourse to the Apocalips where the glorie of Christ his Saints in the kingdome of heauen is set forth And agreeablie to those heauenly thrones we must set vp thrones for our 24. Elders in euery parish For this Beza is certaine of that the heauenlye visions in the Apocalyps were agreable to the forme of the ecclesiasticall regiment in Israell But as touching the number of his elders he is not as yet for any thing I perceaue so throughly resolued And therefore we are at libertie till wee heare to the contrary from him to place moe or fewer in euery parish as we list At Geneua they haue but 12. Elders And they either haue or had once in Edenburgh as many Likewise euery parish must haue certaine Deacons They had once in Edenburgh as I remēber 16. Deacons And concerning widdowes if they will vrge vs with the examples of the Apostles times and withall in like manner presse vs with their own expositiōs then there must be a College of widdowes in euery parish So the grounds of Geneua diuinitie tell vs so doth Beza likewise if I vnderstand them And all these how many i◠euer it shall please our reformers to impose vpon euery parish pastor or pastors Doctor Elders Deacons widdowes must all of thē be found by the same parish For the ministers of the worde there was neuer doubt made amongst thē but that they ought to haue their maintenaunce of the parish and so likewise must the poore widdows But as touching the rest there hath been made some questiō It was a good deuise of Beza that princes noblemē might be elders so was it of our learned Discourser that the worshipfull gentlemē of euery parish might be chosē Deacons The rby indeed the parishes might saue charges For if they be able to liue of themselues then they must not burden the parish in Cartwrightes opinion but serue vpon their own charges The Elders at Geneua being all of them states-men I meane such as be of their Senates men conueniently able to liue of thēselues haue no allowance for any thing that I can find But where the Elders are poore men so as their attending vpon their offices might greatly hinder them then M. Cartwright hath decided the question affirmeth by S. Paules Rule as he saith that they ought to bee plentifully maintained by the Church How far this word plentifully will be extended I know not But a man may gesse The humble motioner would haue the Pastor and Teacher in euerye parish to haue allowed vnto thē two hundred pounds yearly in chiefer places more and in none lesse then two hundred markes By which rate I imagine that their Elders being so great men by their office and the gouernors of the parish cannot well be alowed vnder fortie pound a peece yearely The deacons that carrie the purse if they be not well looked vnto will bee their owne caruers but surely their stipend will be for euerie one of them aboue fortie markes As for the Widdowes they cannot well liue to attende the sicke and wash the Saincts feete with lesse then twentie nobles a yeare how many of them so euer they are All which summes being cast together will prooue a rancke charge to be imposed vpon euery parish But yet this is not all For how shall the pastors doctors wiues and children liue when their husbands and parents are deade This is also foreseene Prouision must be made not only for the ministers sustentatiō during their liues but also for their wiues and children after them For we iudge it a thing most contrarious to reason godlines equitie that the widow and children of him who in his life time did faithfully serue the church of God should after his death bee left comfortles of all prouision In what sort these widdows are to bee relieued I finde not anye particulars of it But they maie not bee of the number of the Church officers except they be threescore yeares of age or haue some priuileges by their late husbands for those roomes And as touching the childrē of ministers this order is required for thē that the men childrē may haue the liberties of the cities adiacent where their fathers labored freely graunted thē that they be sustained at learning if they be foūd apt therto and fayling thereof that they bee put to some handicraft or exercise in some vertuous industrye and likewise for the women children that they be vertuously brought vp honestly doted when they come to maturity of yeares at the discretion of the Church c. Not at the peoples discretiō who must bear the charge but as it shall please their Elderships to taxe them Furthermore and besides the officers and charges mentioned it is also ordered by the new Booke of our Englishe Discipline that there ought to be in euery parishe a Colledge or certaine number of young Diuines such as are meet for the exercises to Diuinity and especially to expound the Scriptures whereby they may bee trained vp by preaching And all these must be likewise maintained diuitum liberalitate by the liberality of the richer Here you see is charge vppon charge But indeede it were a notable matter to haue a Colledge of young Prophets in euerie parishe In the Vniuersities there are Schooles for reading of Lectures and for disputatiōs but as our platformers tell vs these their parish Schooles of Diuinitie are chiefly for preaching They must preach priuatly amongst themselues by course and hauing an auncienter Diuine with them I suppose it will fall to the Pastors lotte they are
well or euill wherefore they esteeme all those to bee enemies that in reason demaunde restitution of them and declare that it belongeth not vnto them but that they haue stollen it awaye from the Church Likewise afterwardes I doubt not but if they were called to account for the bestowing of such goods and if it were taken out of their handes as it was taken from Priestes and Monkes and giuen to such as should better bestowe it they would take pepper in the nose fall to playing the Diuels part Lastlye I put the case sayth he that a whorehunter or baude steale an honest mans wife and the husbande commeth and demandeth this wise of this russiaÌ„ that hath stollen her away and reuileth this Russian or Baude for the wronge that he hath done him and goeth to lawe with him whereby there ariseth great strife I would aske of thee who were in the fault Eyther the husband who hath had this wronge or the Rauisher who hath played him this wicked pranke And the answere is thus framed The whorehunter or baude hath as much reason to complaine and bee angrie as hath a theife or robber which is called to account of thefts and robberies which hee hath committed and which is called to iudgement for the same But I will come from Geneua into England that you maie perceiue what our chiefe disciplinarie Reformers do thinke of this matter It is no better then sacrilege and spoiling of God saie the Authours of the second Admonition 157 7 2 to keepe backe any way the prouision which hath beene made for the ministery And the curse of God threatened by Malachie to those that spoyled the Leuites then belongeth will light vppon our spoylers now and vppon them in whose bandes it is to redresse it if they do it not The Author of the booke de disciplina ecclesiastica speaking of Bishops liuings c. saith thus of many in these daies who vnder a pretence of zeale do cry out for reformation Haec oratiâ— gratissima est nonnullis qui suam causam agi putant et iampridem haereditatem istam spe deuorarunt These wordes c. are most acceptable to some who thinke they tende to theyr profitte and haue alreadye in hope deuoured this inheritaunce For they thinking that wee seeke onlie that Bishops might be spoyled doe expect thereby the like praye that they got by the ruines of Monasteries For as for religion they care not what become of it modò ipsi praedari possint so they may waxe welthyer by sacrilege robbery and would not sticke if it were possible to crucifie Christ againe vt tunicam eius sortirentur et vestimenta diuiderent c. But this our age hath many such Souldiers many such Dionysians who thinke that a golden gowne is not fit for God neyther in summer nor winter and yet that it will serue them well at all times and seasons Againe They had rather all religion were banished that al opinion of worshiping fearing God were abolished that all fayth in Christ hope and looking for euerlasting life were forgotten amongst men then to maintaine it with anye pennye of theirs Yea further they will not only giue nothing to the maintenance of the ministery but most vniustly scrape vnto theÌ„selues that which was liberally giuen by others spoyle the Church robbing her of her goods c. But they must eyther restore it againe that the church may be prouided-for of worthy teachers or else make themselues guiltye of the losse and destruction of so many soules as by theyr meanes are destitute of a preacher and shall perish in their ignorance And againe Let good princes not only not spoyle the ministerie themselues or suffer it to be robbed of others but liberally according to the commaundement of our Sauiour Christ see it maintayned and prouided for through their Kingdomes nor suffer that which was once giuen to this end to be prodigally spent wasted in aulicos luxus atque delicias nor bestowed vppon Noblemens seruaunts nor other innumerable sortes of so vngâ—dly and intollerable abuses by sacrilege the church robbery c. M. Cartwright also in his last booke very well allowing of the former mans iudgement and vtterly misliking of such greedy cormorants for so he termeth them as gape after the pray at large before mentioned writeth in this sort Our meaning is not that these goodes should be turned from the possession of the Church to the filling of the bottomlesse sackes of their greedy appetites which yawne after this pray and wold therby to their perpetuall shame purchase theÌ„selues a field of blood There was a booke published in the parliament time 1585. intituled A lamentable complaint of the Cominaltie Wherein the authors haue at large handled this matter Know ye not say they That the vniust shall not inherit the kingdome of God What greater iniustice then to defraude God of his glory the ministers of theyr right c. How can wee saie that wee loue Christ No not so much as Antichrist loueth the Diuell For Antichrist is bountifull to maintaine his seruice if the like liberality were vsed amongst vs without all doubt a great number would be stayed from passing the Seas to Roome or Rhemes to become Iesuits We read Leuit. 27. That nothing seperate from common vse may be sould c. because it was holy vnto the Lorde The which Law is not ceremoniall but iudicial the equitie therof endureth to the Church for euer the violation of the same lawe hath beene horriblye punished in former dayes as appeareth by the examples of Achan Nabuchadnezar Balthazar Ananias and Saphira c. And the like iustice no man can escape either in this world or in the world to come that committeth the like offence Vppon that place of Mal. where it is sayd That the spoyling of the Priestes was the spoyling of god Thus also they write Hath not the whole nation of England spoyled the Lord in like manner and rather more Surely this is written for our learning that we might know that things consecrated to God for the seruice of his church belong vnto him for euer A number moe of such speaches I could alledge out of their writings But these may serue to let you know that whatsoeuer in times past any of their sort did seeme to yealde vnto for a time touching the alienation of Church-liuings yet this was alwaies their purpose to get them againe into their owne handes in the end It had beene a happie matter for the Church if this lesson had been euer obserued Thou shalt not do euill that good may come of it Things had not theÌ„ growen to such extremities as they are brought vnto in many places When the Sea maketh a breach it is hardly stopped and a dore once opened to such impietie will be hardly shut againe And yet you see they do what they can to shut it
their followers and that all men both Princes and others would be content to submitte their neckes vnder that yoke Which were to make Princes saith Erastus trulie quasi carniâ—ices as it were the executioners onely of their pleasures quemadmâ—dunâ— in Papatu factum videmus as we see it practised in the Papacy and in truth is nothing els but that I may vse their phrases to banish one Pope and admitte of thousands or to deliuer their Scepters from the tyrannie of the old Pope and to subiect them to the tyranny of these new Popes euen to excommunication as Cartwright with his English crue doe affirme and so consequently to depriuation or death as Buchanan the Scottishe Consistorian teacheth My purpose is only in this place to make it knowne from whence our brotherhood haue furnished themselues with their inuectiues against the authoritye of Princes in causes ecclesiasticall and that whatsoeuer they pretend in words yet they are of the same minde that Viretus is if they durst so plainly vtter it Or if they be not let them confes in print that the premisses cited out of his sayde dialogue are false and then for that pointe let them be credited But that I am perswaded they will neuer doe I am sure if they should that besides their opposition with Geneua they should also recant their owne assertions which directly exclude the ciuile magistrates from dealing in ecclesiasticall causes As for example The whole gouernment of the Church is to be committed to Ministers Elders Deacons The church is now to the worldes end to haue no other offices in it but of pastors Doctors Elders and Deacons They which are no Elders of the Church haue nothing to doe in the gouernment of the same They deuide the Church wherein anye Magistrate King or Emperor is a member into those which are to gouerne vz. Pastors Doctors and Elders and into such as are to obey vz. magistrates of all sortes the people Indeed Beza will haue the ciuile magistrate one of the Church-officers But Cartwright will not consent for his part to yeald them so much For saith he as Pastors cannot bee officers of the common wealth no more can the magistrate bee called properlye a church-officer And in truth what Beza graunteth it is in effect nothing sauing for a shew and to serue their own turnes forsooth vt tranquillitatem ecclesiae procurent â—t tueantur Their office is to procure and defend the peace of the Church whereas else where hee agreeth with Viretus yee may bee sure and in his Booke against Erastus peremptorily affirmeth That Princes haue no more to doe with matters of the Church then Ministers haue with the affayres of the common wealth Which by their doctrine generallie is none at all But saide I hee agreeth with Viretus I might saie rather with Cardinall Allen and Saunders if he bee the author of the Booke intituled Vindicie contra Tyrannos as it was reported For there hee saith that if anie Prince shall challenge to himselfe both Tributes that is authoritie aswell in Ecclesiasticall causes as ciuile as by the circumstances of the place it is euident hee doth as if hee would like the old Giaunts scale heauen and surprise it and is guiltie of treason and doth thereby forfeite his fee that hee holdeth no lesse than a subiect or vassall shall that vsurpeth the kinges royaltyes and in this respect such kinges are very often depriued thereof much more iustlye then a vassall or subiecte maye bee insomuch as there is some proportion of comparison betwixte a vassall or subiect and his Lorde but betwixt God and the king betwixt a wretched man and the Almightie there can bee no proportion at all Furthermore Cartwright and some others with him do affirme that Kings and princes do holde their kingdomes and dominions vnder Christ as hee is the sonne of God onlye before all worldes coequall with the father and not as hee is mediator the heade and gouernor of the Church Whereuppon they doe first builde that all Kinges aswell heathen as Christian receiuing but one commission and equall authoritie immediately from God haue no more to doe with the Church the one sorte then the other as being in no respect deputed for Church officers vnder Christ otherwise then if they bee good Kinges to maintaine and defende it And secondlye that as God hath appoynted all Kinges and Ciuile Magistrates his immediate Lieutenants for the gouernment of the worlde in temporall causes so Christ as hee is mediator and gouernour of his Church hath his immediate officers to rule in the Church vnder him and those they saie are no other then Pastors Doctors and Elders to whom they ascribe as large authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall And all this as I take it they haue learned of the Papists For whereas maister Harding saith that the office of a King in it selfe is all one euerie where not onely amongst the Christian Princes but also amonge the Heathen and thereuppon concludeth that a christian Prince hath no more to doe in the deciding of church-matters or in making ceremonies and orders for the Church then a Heathen Cartwright alloweth of his iudgement and doth expresly affirme that hee himselfe is of the same opinion professing his mislike of those who teach another right of a Christian and of a prophane magistrate Whereat Trauerse his scholler aymeth in like sorte when hee saith in effect that heathen princes being conuerted to the fayth receiue no further increase of theyr power whereby they maye deale in causes ecclesiasticall then they had before And lastly it is no lesse agreeable vnto their seconde assertion that whereas the Papists saye the Pope with his Cardinalls and Bishops are a true representation of the Catholicke Church of Christ vnder whom the Pope being Peters supposed Successor is the ministeriall and immediate chiefe gouernour of it here vppon earth now Cartwright and others doe affirme that euerye particular parish hauing such an Eldershippe in it as they desire is a liuelye patterne and representation of the whole and catholicke Church of Christe vnder whom saye they their Pastors Doctors and Elders are the ministeriall and immediate gouernours by right of euery such Catholicke parish-Church vppon earth And thus if I bee not deceiued that playnelye appeareth which was in the beginning of this Chapter propounded vz. that for all their protestations they derogate from Christian Princes and arrogate to their Elderships the supreame and immediate authority vnder Christ in causes ecclesiasticall CHAP. XXIII In the oppugning of Princes authoritye in causes Ecclesiasticall they ioyne with the Papists THere is nothing will lightlye anger our pretended Brotherhood more then if ti be tolde them that they denie in effect with the common aduersaries her Maisties lawefull stile and prerogatiue Royall in causes ecclesiasticall Oâ— saye they wee doe not wee are slaundered wee yealde vnto her Highnes
orders to this poynte in the newly subscribed booke of discipline Plurium sententiae verbo Dei consentaneae singulares omnes eius cansilij conuentus ecclesiae parere debent All Churches must obey the sentence of the greater part of that Councellor assembly vnder whose direction they are the same being agreeable to the worde of God And agayne It is made a part of theyr Aldermens office to see Vt quae à conuentibus piè decreta retulerint à ciuibus suis earum ecclesiarum studiosè obseruentur that those godly decrees which they shall bring from the assemblyes bee diligently obserued of theyr Cittizens of those Churches Lastly Conuentus sententia rata habeatur donec à conuentu maior is authoritatis secus iudicatum puerit Let the sentence of euery assembly bee ratified vntill it shall be otherwise iudged-of by an assembly of greater authoritie As a classicall to bee ouerruled by a prouinciall a prouinciall by a nationall a nationall by a generall And thus they write of theyr owne orders and assemblyes Which rules take them altogether as they lye if they bee true as I doe not greatly dislike them being well applyed then do these busie bodies among vs sin most directly against theyr own consciences in that they oppose themselues as they do against those things which the greater part of the national Sinode high court of parliament of this Realme hath allowed of beeing most agreeable to the worde of God before some generall Councell or assembly of more authoritie haue iudged otherwise and determined for the course that they haue proceeded in Generall Councell I am sure they haue none And for any other assembly that hath beene held and should haue greater authoritie in England than the nationall Synode of all our owne Churches and the high Court of Parliament let them name it In their writinges generally they exclayme against the high Commission or at the least against the Commissioners as many of them as bee clergie men affirming it to bee against the worde of God that any such should bee of that Commission And yet in Scotland it was agreeable with the Scriptures that fortie or fiftie at the least Ministers of the worde as I conceyue it shoulde bee verie great Commissioners from the King Anno 1589. to very manie great purposes euen for the purging of that lande from all sortes of enemies to the religion there professed Likewise earnest suite is made in the Supplication before mentioned to her Maiestie and found in Fields study that the foresaid foure twentie Doctors that should bee of the Parliament house might be likewise generall Commissioners vnder the great scale of England or the more part of them to beare and determine all and euery secte errour heresie contempt default and misdemeanour agaynst the worde of God and her Maiesties lawes of reformation of religion to depriue any Pastour not dooing or neglecting his duetie to examine witnesses and to imprison the bodyes of all such malefactors and to certifie their names to the Lordes of her Maiesties Councell that they may receiue further condigne punishment Besides there bee some that resemble the high Commission nowe in force vnto the authoritie which they challenge to theyr seuerall Elderships Whereupon one of them acquainted I doubt not with the desires of the rest sayth That if the high Commission were setled in fiue hundred places more than it is and shoulde gouerne by the worde of God and lawes of this Realme there would rise more profit thereby to religion than yet hath beene found by the Bishops He would haue it in fiue hundreth places Scotland is diuided into two and fiftie Eldershippes and of likelyhood they would haue fiue hundred in England And that as I take it is the mystery of his number of fiue hundred To conclude I finde another motion which liketh wel that if there were fiue hundred Elderships more or fewer established yet there might be in euery great Towne certaine Commissioners in causes ecclesiasticall appoynted to looke that the Elderships did their dueties if they did not to compel them therunto by ciuill authority So as therby it appeareth that although our Bishops other Clergie men may not be such Commissioners with vs in some few places yet their Pastors Doctors Aldermen may in euery parish or so many of them or I knowe not whom as it should please her Maiestie to assigne to euery greate Towne Surely the worde of God is much troubled with such kinde of choppers and chaungers of it euery giddy heade wresting and wringing it to serue his owne deuise Wee shoulde haue Commissions to thatch houses withall I see if they might be our directors They are offended with the authoritie that her Maiestie dooth giue vnto her Commissioners for causes ecclesiasticall as beeing vnlawfull in that by vertue of that commission they may sende sometimes for offendors to appeare before them by purseuants and commit them to prison as occasion shal fall out and theyr faultes misdemeanors and contempts shall require But at Geneua the like authoritie in effecte is lawfull in their Eldership For there the Consistorie hath a Beadle sergeant or purseuant or as you lift to tearme him appoynted by the ciuill Magistrates to attende vppon it whose office is to call such before the Consistorie as the Aldermen shall appoynt him And for imprisoning of any offendors and contemptuous persons there is notany matter almost for the which they may call a man before them but one parte of the punishment of it by the lawes of the Cittie is imprisonment As if any when hee appeareth in the Consistorie or els where be so hardie as but to speake euill of any of the Ministers or misname them he is to be imprisoned Besides as I haue noted it before theyr Elders are alwayes of the Councell of state and seldome or neuer but they will bee sure to haue one of the foure Syndickes to bee of that bench So as together they raigne lyke Lordes in theyr Consistorie and who dare say My Lordes why doe you so If they direct imprisonment is but a small matter I speake not agaynst that order there let them vse it as they thinke good Only I see not why the worde of God should bee so bountifull to them and is so sparing to vs. In that by the orders of our Church and the laws of the Realme there is required of Ministers a subscription to her Maiesties lawfull authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes to the Articles of Religion and to the Communion booke c. greate quarrels haue beene raysed and many exceptions are taken against it Insomuch as one a wise man I warraunt you dooth ascribe all the daungers that haue beene complotted against her Maiesties person by the traitrous Papistes the dearth of corne the cause that we haue had such watching and warding by souldiers and lastly that the Spanyards would haue inuaded this land
against him doth traÌ„slate for dioces parish as in this place he doth it with a most brasen forehead The councell of Nice of Antioch of Carthage and of Sardis directly prouing that Bishops only had authority to excommunicate Cartwright giueth no other answere vnto them but this that Maister Caluin saith how Bishops in excommunicating after that manner dealt therein ambitiously Athanasius saith that Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria had the Churches of Pentapolis committed to his care Cartwright saith that care importeth not iurisdiction and so as to the Councell of Nice and of Antioch Cyprian saith the cause of heresies and schismes is this that Priests wil not obey their BB. Cartwright that answereth that is iu effect if his vnpreaching Aldermen will not obay their Pastors Epiphanius speaking of one Peter a Bishop of Alexandria saith this is the custome that the Bishop of Alexandria should haue the Ecclesiastiasticall gouernment of all Egipt Thebais Mariota Libia Ammonica Mariotes Pentapolis Whereupon Cartwright gloseth thus that is besides his own church he procured the good of other churches rouÌ„d about him Again Epiphanius of one Miletus an Archbishop that he was subiect or vnder the said Peter Archbishop of Alexandria Cartwright saith that euery Bishop of name was called an Archbishop And where it is said Miletus was vnder Peter that is vnder him in honour and not subiect vnto him saith Cartwright contrary to the manifest words and meaning of the author Theodoret Bishop of Cyprus saith of himself that he had the gouernment ouer 800. Churches Cartwright saith in effect that he lied that his words coÌ„cerning his care in gouerning those churches being spoken of himselfe want not suspition and that hee was condemned for writing against Cirill neuer mentioning how hee was wrongfully condemned in his absence and afterward restored I omit a number of their other shifts and presumptuous dealings with the fathers As of Epiphanius For him it is knowen of what authority he is c. it were better to laie his words against Aerius vpon some counterfaite and false Epiphanius to spare his credit Likewise of Ambrose Many errors corrupt expositions are found in his works in his exposition vpon the place to the Philippians a child may see how violently he forceth the Text. And also their reiecting of Councels by heaps c. wher they haue no coulor how they may peruert them But yet I may not let this escape my fingars that Cartwright whether for his owne glory or else that God would haue him to be the instrument of his owne shame is well content rather then he will want testimonies to encounter with the authority of Bishops to sort both himselfe all his followers in the number of those that euer since the Apostles times haue repined at that authority thereupon haue beene ouerruled by all the auncient Fâ—thers and Councels as busie bodies Schismaticks You shall heare his wordes and then iudge whether I haue mistaken them To what ende both in the Nicene councell and in many other holden more then two hundred yeares after are there found so manie canons for the acknowledging of the authority of one Metropolitane in euery Province for the honor which he should haue the name he should be called by for the place where hee should sit at their meetings for the bounds of their circuit Doe not all these declare that there were some which were ennemies to that authoritye c. To this I might adde his defence to Aerius and his confutation of Epiphanius not without some discredit to Sainct Augustine Lastlie whatsoeuer is saide or may be said hereafter out of all the auncient Fathers and Histories and out of all the generall Councels concerning the saide gouernment of the Church by Bishops Archbishops and Patriarches of their institution authority title circuites and prerogatiues Cartwright doth take vpon him most boldlie most falsly to prescribe vnto vs certain rules how we must vnderstaÌ„d them or otherwise there is not one of them that will be allowed of I blush in his behalfe I assure you to sette it downe and am ashamed that anie man bearing the name of a Christian shoulde deale so like an Impostor But this it is That it maye appeare saith he what the Fathers and Councelles doe mean when they giue more to the Bishop of anye one churche then to the Elder of the same church and that no man bee deceaued by the name of Gouernour or ruler ouer the rest to fancy any such authority and domination or Lordship as wee see vsed in our church it is to bee vnderstoode that amongest the Pastors Elders and Deacons of euery particular church and in the meetings and companies of the Ministers or Elders of diuerse churches there was one chosen by the voyces suffrages of them al or the most part which did propound the matters that were to be handled whether they were difficulties to be soluted or punishments censures to be decreed vppon those that had faulted or whether there were elections to be made or what other matter so euer occasion was giuen to intreate off the which also gathered the voyces reasons of those which had interest to speake in such causes which also did pronounce according to the number of the voyces which were giuen which was also the mouth of the rest to admonish or to comfort or to rebuke sharply such as were to receaue admonishment consolation or rebuke which in a worde did moderate that whole action which was done for that time they were assembled c. And must we thus vnderstande the Fathers generall Councels Hee might as truely saie that the present forme of our ecclesiasticall gouernment in England vnder her maiestie by Archbishops and Bishops is euen the very same maÌ„ner of church-gouernment that he his followers looke for the right platform of those Elderships which haue so mightely bewitched them Men that once haue passed the limits of modestie may afterwards saie write what they list The ancient Fathers haue deserued farre otherwise of the Church of Christ then that for the maintenaunce of such a forgery as the pretended form of discipline is they shold be vsed after any such manner I would wish all men that are of this proud presumptuous humor to peruse the books which S Augustine hath written against Iulianus the Pelagian There they shall find the very same contemptuous spirit in Iulianus that raigneth in theÌ„selues exalteth it selfe so greatly against the godly learned fathers as also on the other side they shall there see the fruites of Gods spirit vz. in what reuerend account verie high estimation S. Augustine had such worthy holy men by name as here you haue heard very contumeliously disgraced childishly neglected disdaynfully contemned and most proudlie reiected Ita intellexit Ambrosius ita Cyprianus ita Gregorius c. So Ambrose vnderstood such a place of the
scriptures So Cyprian so Gregory c. did carry some weight in S. Augustines opinion Those things which diuerse notable men haue alledged out of the auncient Fathers for the iustification of the present ecclesiasticall gouernment in the church of England ought not so lightly to bee regarded with euery princox What the Fathers haue written that agreeth not with our Phantasticall giddye headed fellowes pleasures they write it not of parciality either to grieue them or to gratifie vs but as trueth led theÌ„ Quod inuenerunt in ecclesia teneruÌ„t quod didiceruÌ„t docueruÌ„t quod a patribus acceperunt hoc filiis tradideruÌ„t that which they found in the church saith Augustine they held that which they had learned they taught that which they had receaued of theyr fathers they deliuered to theyr children Though Cartwright his companie do carrie so base a conceit of those times wherein the auncient fathers liued yet the Fathers themselues did not so thinke of theÌ„ Iulianus the heriticke did speake as it seemeth insuch a scornfull sorte of theÌ„ as our Sectaries do But S. Augustine laieth it to his reproch as an apparant argument of his great folly presumptioÌ„ thinking it a most absurd point for him so to vse them Vsque adeò permiscuit imis summa longus dies c. hath time so confounded all things saith Augustine is darknes growen to bee such light and is light it selfe turned into such darknes vt videant Pelagius Celestinus Iulianus et caeci sunt Hilarius Cpyrianus Ambrosius that Pelagius Celestinâ—s and Iulianus can see and Hilary Cyprian and Ambrose are become blind And surely I do not perceaue why I may not without offence applie the same wordes to those men in these daies which treade in the saide fellowes steppes concerning this their contempt pride Were there neuer learned men before you were taught the principles of the Geneua discipline was wisdom dead till you were borne Doe you know what was in the Apostles times better then they did who succeeded the Apostles were the auncient Fathers able to defende the greatest misteries of our saluation against so many pestilent heretiques and were they ignorant in the matters of the externall gouernment of the church Knew they the distinction of the three persons in the blessed Trinitie could they not find what difference Christ allowed off to be continued in his Church betwixt a Bishop and a priest Is the darknes which pride carieth with it groweÌ„ to be so light and is the light that shewed it selfe so many waies in the ancient fathers as in their singular learning great humilitie become such darknes that Cartwright Trauerse Fenner and such like but the shadows of learned men in respect should be thought so clearly sighted shall Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian Ambrose Hierome Chrysostome Augustine Gregory Hilarye and all the rest of those worthie men be reckoned blind Surely he is a bussard that thinketh so And therefore I will coÌ„clude this chapter with another saying of S. Augustines against such busie innouators as you are oportet vt populi christiani vestris prophanis nouitatibus anteponant c. It is meet that all christian people should preferre the auncient fathers before your nouelties eisque potius adherere quà m vobis rather sticke fast to their iudgements then to runne after your phansies CHAP. XXVIII Theyr dealing with all the new writers and many reformed churches when they make against them THis is a grounde layde downe by Cartwright that few men that are of any stayde or sounder iudgement in the scriptures and haue seene or read of the gouernment and order of other churches are against them in such matters as they haue broched vnto vs. And agreablie to this ground his answeres are framed when any thing is vrged against him out of anie of the new writers except Caluin and BeZa If either of them do happen to crosse him it is strange to see how he doubleth shifteth As for any other they are but a puffe with him hee careth not greatly howe hee handleth them Pellicane Bucer Bullinger Illyricus and Musculus affirming with all the auncient Fathers that Timothye was Bishop of Ephesus what then sayth Cartwright If they were for one a hundred they could not beare downe the Apostle As though they hadde euer ment it Luther expoundinge a place of Zacharie contrarie to his liking his exposition sayth Cartwright is out of season Musculus affirmeth that the places 20. of Sainct Mathew 10. of sainct Marke and 22. of sainct Luke vos autem non sic doe not condemne Superioritie but an ambitious desire and tyrannicall vsage of it but Caluin as learned as hee sayth Cartwright is of my iudgement Bucer holdeth that the sayde 20. of Mathew doth propound a generall rule to all magistrats and christians Where Cartwrights extenuating the authoritie of man braueth out Bucer with this that his iudgment hath counterpoise of other as learned Whereas Peter Martyr Bullinger and Gualter do bring diuerse reasons for the lawfull vse of the surplise and such other apparrell as is appointed with vs for Ministers Cartwright is so farre from being moued with their authoritie as that he aduentureth to confute their said reasons after his manner very sophistically affirming in effect but falsely that either they vnderstoode not auncient fathers alleadged by them for that purpose or that they peruerted their meaning Bishop Ridly and Maister Bucer approouing that where there are no preachers there should bee godly learned homilies read in those Churches Cartwright thus dismisseth Bishop Ridley being a partie in this cause hee ought to be no witnesse And for Maister Bucers wordes he saith they are not to be weighed insinuating that his booke concerning his iudgement in king Edwardes daies vppon the communion booke is counterfeited Againe of maister Bucer for his allowing of priuate baptisme and of the signe of the Crosse likewise of the ring in marriage and that the parties married should receiue the communion he saith Bucer hath other grosse absurdities to this authoritie I could oppose other men of as great authoritie sometimes Homer sleepeth his reasons are verie ridiculous verie slender and colde and sauour not of the learning and sharpnesse of the iudgement of maister Bucer Maister Fox in like sorte setting downe his full approbation of the present state ecclesiasticall that Archbishops should be in degree aboue Bishops and Bishops in degree aboue other Ministers and relying for this his iudgement partly vpon the scriptures and partly vppon the primatiue Church and concluding that this is to keepe an order duely and truely in the Church according to the true nature and definition of order by the authoritie of Augustine he is I say thus censured Maister Fox writing a storie doth take greater paine and looketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what time and by whome then howe iustly or vniustly how
Pope to him-selfe But I will leaue these immodrate and forraine dotages specifie vnto you some of our domesticall I confesse to you saith the displayer of men in their colloures I reuerence D. Fulke and no disparagement vnto any I thinke him vniuersally as well learned as euer Caluin or Beza was And in an other place Put it to the censure of D. Fulke D. Whittakers Maister Cartwright c. Men I hope as well able to iudge as all the L. Bishops in christendome Againe No question but Caluin and Beza are wide sometimes Also afterwarde The verie ornaments of your vniuersitie indeede whose verie names and liues doe carry with them aestimation to bee reuerenced D. Fulke D. Goade D. Whittakars to these men I appeale And furthermore If wee should once or twise and vse it not set D. Fulkes learned iudgement against the bare authoritie of Caluin and Beza in this case I doe not see that it be any great preiudice or disparagement vnto any Diuerse other such like speeches there are in that booke whereby a man may see how the brethren are affected vnto their parte-takers Although he nameth some who will neuer thanke him for it and I supose hee hath done them great iniurie in making them to seeme the patrones of such fancies as there are mainetained I made mention before of Cartwrights place amongst certaine disciplinary worthies But my meaninge is not so to passe him ouer whom all the rest of our men doe soe admire His authoritie in deede is very great as being in effecte the Patriarche of them all Those thinges that he writeth are almost oracles Happye is the brother that canne come in his companie If hee bee in prison prayers are made for his deliueraunce if hee bee deliuered great thankes are publickely giuen vnto god for the same If hee commaund the rest obey if hee shall relent I thinke they will all relent When great matters are to bee handled he must needs be one in euery place Couentry Cambrdige London c. And vppon any new accidents the occurrents are caried to him as to their chiefest counsaylor Salute our most reuerent brother maister Cartwright for whome prayers are made with vs. As soone as I knowe of maister Cartwrightes deliuery I sent for maister Trauers and we had psalmes of thankesgiuing prayers to the same purpose and a sermon his text being the 20 of Ieremie 10.11.12.13.14 verses I percciue by those imperfect writinges of maister Cartwrightes and others that the pointes of reformation are at large and particularly debated Wee want bookes whereby wee may come to the knowledge of the truth I meane T. C. bookes The forme of gouernment set down by T. C. is commanded by god I thanke god I haue satisfied in part my longing with conference with M. Cartwright of whom I thinke as she did of Solomon I would gladly knowe when I might come from Oxford to London to see T.C. Maister Snape vpon one of his examinations before her Maiesties Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical findinge some matters to haue bene further disclosed then he looked for presently directed his letters thereof into the countrey mouing his frend that maister Cartwright might be aduertised It were good saith he you sent to T.C. with speed I would gladly heare whether T. C. did councell you or demaund councell of you I wish the matter maye bee well and closly handled For I heare some whispering allready yet among them that fauour the cause that he hath councelled the brethren rather to vse those corruptions then to leaue their charges I wish and hope it be not so not onely least men should iudge the man to be inconstant but especially for that these times be such that in them such yealding will doe no good Maister D. Bridges hauing occasion in his writinges to name Maister Cartwright did forget to carry this word M. vnder his girdle but called him plainly Cartwright Wherat see how maister Trauerse repineth Wee acknowledge and reuerence maister Cartwright as his rare guiftes of knowledge zeale his learned works constant suffering in this cause and at this time his continuall trauell in preaching the Gospell doe worthely deserue for which cause hee was worthy other respect then the replier here doth giue him If hee would needes set downe his name hee shoulde haue considered the example of the Apostle who yet seldome or neuer mentioneth any minister of the Gospell by name yea scarse anye professor without some good marke of the grace of god in them But this and a great deale more both hee and whosoeuer shall serue god as they ought in this cause of the further reformation of the Church must account to endure of them that oppose themselues to this most necessary seruice I had lately some speach with Maister Cartwright concerning our next meeting who aduised me to put you in mind of some thinges c. Hee saith that at your late being together at Wroxall you determined our nexte meetinge to bee at Warwicke at the quarter Sessions that twesday for the humbling of our selues and the day following to consult of other matters His request is that you will giue notice thereof vnto the brethren of our conference and also that by your meanes there may bee some of vs appointed to exercise in priuate that day If this his request connot conueniently bee performed then I take it necessary thot you write so with some speede to M. Cartwright that hee may prouide a remedie else where M. May and I ridde with M. Cartwright to M. Throgmortons two miles out of Warwicke where hee preached more he sayde then euer he did in his life before c. On tuesday M. Cartwright kept M. Fens lecture text psalme 122. 4. vnto the ende takinge thrones as Tremellius doth and vrginge the discipline the want wherof hee affirmed to bee the cause that some friendes forsooke our church and enemies as Papistes would not come neere her I pray you remember to reserue for mee one of the rare birds bookes his name may bee right Cartwright God bee praised though hee cannot speake vnto vs yet accordinge to his name hee doth write He is a worthy wight Sicut discipuli olim presto habuerunt ipsum Dominum ita magistrum Cartwrightum dominum meum habeo presentem as the disciples in times past had the Lord himselfe amongst them so I haue M. Cartwright my Lord in presence with me And thus hetherto of these poore simple but yet most palpable parasites The disciplinarie crue a company of Apostles and Cartwright their Christe Christe amongste his Apostles and Cartwright amongst his Disciples If Cartwright and such other guides were not supposed by their followers to bee very notable Thrasoes is it possible that any man of common sence would shewe themselues to bee such flattering Gnathoes And these are the menne for-sooth that in all their
Christiā whosoeuer to separat himselfe either from their assemblies or from the receiuing of the Lords supper with them But if any so did he assigneth him his place amongst certain old hereticks Olim duae fuerunt haereticorum sectae c. In times past there vvere sayth he tvvo sorts of hereticks vvhich troubled the Church greatly The one sort of them vvere called Puritans the other Donatists And both of them vvere in the same error that these dreamers are in seeking for a Church vvherein there should vvant nothing that might be desired Therefore they diuided themselues from the vniuersall society of Christians least they should be defiled vvith other mens impurities But vvhat came of it Dominus eos cum tam arroganticoepto dissipauit The Lord himselfe scattered them vvith that their proud attempt Where by the way it is meet to be obserued that a man may sticke so fast to the Geneua discipline as he may prooue himselfe to bee either a puritane or a Donatist or both Maister Beza in like maner by reason of some opposition which hath bene made against the Sauoyan platforme is growne as it seemeth to some kind of moderation For speaking of the pretended necessitie of it hee sayth that the doctrine onely vz. vvhat vve are to beleeue is absolutely necessarie and also further addeth that seeing a man sometimes may be saued vvithout the participation of the sacraments the same may bee sayd much more of the vvant of ecclesiasticall discipline Now verely we are to thanke him he hath done much for vs. We may be saued though the memorie of this discipline were vtterly buried But the point which I chiefely note is this that there is great difference in maister Bezaes iudgement betwixt the necessitie of the first two notes of the church and this third of his own deuise And therein he giueth in effect the flat lye to maister Cartvvright for charging him to hold that all the said 3 notes as they are notes were equally necessarie And Trauers also is checked by his good maister in that he wil needs make as it hath bene said the censures of his cōsistories to be in the same absolute degree of necessity both with the word and sacraments But I wil follow M. Beza whilest I haue him in his good mood The vvhole church vvanted circūcision in the vvildernes saith he vvhilest they vvere in Babylon they neither had temple nor sacrifices and yet neuerthelesse they ceassed not to be the people of God And the same may then be said much more of the ecclesiastical discipline vz. Ecclesias vt illa careant tamen ecclesias verè pias Christianas esse posse si doctrinam praecipuorū dogmatum purā ac sincerā habuerint That the churches that vvant that discipline may notvvithstanding bee indeed godly and Christian churches if they retaine the doctrine of the cheefest grounds pure and sincere Now if Beza will giue this testimonie of a church that wanteth both his discipline and the sacraments hauing but only the principall grounds of religiō what should he say of those churches which haue not onely a better discipline then that which hee vrgeth but also the said sincere grounds with the doctrine true vse of both the holy sacramēts in as great reuerence at the least as they haue them at Geneua You shall heare him what he is driuen to say of the present estate of the church of England The places haue bene cited in the eight chapter to another purpose He must be pardoned to come in with his If because any thing from him that soundeth not after the Geneua tune is very much But if the churches of England sayth he being vnderpropped vvith the authoritie of Bishops and Archbishops do firmely abide as this hath happened in our memorie to that church that shee hath had men of that order not onely vvorthie Martyrs of God but most singular pastors and doctors fruatur sane ista singulari Dei beneficentia quae vtinam illi sit perpetua Let her enioy this singular goodnesse of God vvhich I pray shee may so do for euer And in another place speaking likewise vvith some good tearmes of the Church of England and of our Archbishops and Bishops he turneth himselfe cleane about and sayth that they of Geneua do not prescribe to any church to follovv their peculiar example like vnto ignorant men vvho thinke nothing vvell but that they do themselues Againe also the same maister Beza in his booke which Erastus confuted not in that which Beza hath since published but in the written and true copie of it he speaketh in this sort Nomine ecclesia Geneuensis in the name of the church of Geneua to those that account the Geneuian Eldership to be but humanum commentum a humane deuise Petimus vt quemadmodum patienter ferimus ipsos a nobis c. dissentire VVe desire of them that as vve suffer them patiently to dissent from vs c. so they vvould heare vs modestly refelling their arguments nullo cum ecclesiarum preiudicio quas sibi credit as administrant VVithout any preiudice to those churches that they haue taken the charge of For vvhere some do obiect that vve account those churches that vvant either excommunication or such an eldership to be no churches it is obiected immerito Deus testis est vndeseruedly on our parts God is our vvitnesse and it is much more a slander vvhere it is giuen out that vve do bring a nevv tyrannie into the church nostra velle reliquis obtrudere and endeuor to obtrude our forme of discipline vnto the rest of the reformed churches Non est ita fratres It is not so brethren Furthermore in like manner in the same place afterward Quicunque vero hanc disciplinam in suis ecclesiis non modo inutilem verumetiam noxiam fore iudicant fruantur sane suo sensu c. VVhosoeuer do iudge this discipline not only vnprofitable but hurtfull to their churches let them enioy their ovvn sense They vndoubtedly do see vvhat their flocks will indure neither doubt vve but that men of so great learning and of so great antiquitie our reuerend bretheren in the Lord haue their reasons Et quis nos constituit alieni gregis iudices And vvho hath made vs iudges of other mens flocks He seldome hath vttered a truer speech But how these sayings do agree with that which he hath sayd before in the third chapter you may not curiously scanne it Indeed he should seeme to be farre now from his former opinion when he sayd in effect That it vvas to little purpose for any church to admit of the gospell and to reiect his discipline But he writeth in mine opinion as it hath bene sayd of old time some courtiers in the world do vse to speake that is for the most part as the present occasion serueth their turnes Such companie they may fal into as they wil commend him to the skies whom
not past an hower before they had in an other company depraued peraduēture most egregiously And maister Beza you must imagine hath bene an old courtier and knoweth wel what policie meaneth Plaine dealing certainly is best but often-times it falleth out that it is not the readiest way for hammering and busie farre reaching heads to compasse their purposes If this excuse do seeme too simple let any that list make a better No man doth wish it more heartily as I thinke then my selfe that maister Beza should thinke well of the present church-gouernment established in England so he do it plainly faithfully and directly which will not happen I feare it in hast Neither haue I alleaged his former words to that purpose as though I tooke all that for gold which he can make to glister The point I prosecute is this that you might perceaue how they begin to leaue off from vrging the Geneuian platforme with such important necessitie as formerly they haue done But most of all it pleaseth me to see how maister Cartvvright draweth homeward For as the Anabaptists by their madnesse kept maister Caluin within some good compas and as maister Beza hath bene compelled in some sort to retire himselfe from his former eagernesse so assuredly the phrenetical giddinesse of these our new vnbrideled schismatickes who for pretended puritie are many degrees beyond al the Sauoyan disciplinariās hath wrought a miracle to my vnderstanding vpon M. Cartvvright For heare him how for feare of falling into flat Donatisme he was fain to plead against one that had bene his scholer in the behalfe of the church of England so bitterly before by himselfe impugned The ordinarie assemblies sayth he of those vvhich professe the gospell in England are the churches of Christ which he proueth in this sort Those assemblies vvhich haue Christ for their head and the same also for their foundatiō are Gods churches Such are the assemblies of England therefore c. Againe they that haue performed vnto them the speciall couenant vvhich the Lord hath made with his churches of pouring his spirit vpon them and putting his vvord into their mouthes are the churches of God but such are the assemblies in England therefore c. Hereunto may be added sayth he further the iudgement of all the churches of Christ in Europe all vvhich giue the right hand of societie in the house of God vnto the assemblies vvhich are in England Againe to prooue that the church of England is the church of God notwithstanding it want the pretended discipline he vseth this distinction that as it is in mans body so is it in this matter there are certaine parts essentiall and such as vvithout the vvhich a man cannot stand and some seruing either to his comlinesse or to his continuance And of this latter sort he maketh the discipline and lastly he writeth thus To say that the church of England is not the church of God because it hath not receaued this discipline me thinks is all one vvith this as if a man vvould say It is no citie because it hath no vvall or that it is no vineyard because it hath neither hedge nor ditch Thus farre maister Cartvvright In which his manner of speech you find a very great alteration from his ancient stile And as concerning the necessitie whereof I intreat the wind you see is turned There is no more necessity in England of the Geneua platforme then that euery citie in this realme should be walled about And besides the pretended discipline is become not to be any longer of the essence of the church but as appertaining to the comlinesse of it But how these things will accord with the premises namely his subscriptiō before mentioned to the new booke of discipline where the same discipline is made to be essentiall or whether maister Cartvvright hath changed his iudgement againe since he writ that answer to Harrison I will leaue it to be discussed by them that know his vnreuealed mind better then I do In the meane time that which he hath graunted I thinke it meet to take hold of And this I will adde vnto it that if maister Cartvvright would but conferre with some that haue skill in fortification to know of him whether an old thicke wall of lime and stone made many hundred yeares since or a new sleight wall slubbered ouer and wrought with vntēpered morter some few yeres ago whether I say of these 2 walles are of better defence for any citie I should be in good hope that he would in short time leaue the disciplinarie walles of Geneua and content himselfe with the ancient fortifications of the church of England and the rather because he seeth as I sayd in the former chapter what a giddie and itching humor his nouelties haue bred in the vnstayed sort of many fantasticall people CAP. XXXV Of the pretended commoditie that the elderships vvould bring vvith them and of the small fruits that they bring sorth vvhere they are THat which hath bene sayd of the commendation of this pretended regiment may fitly be applied to this place But now further of the commodities which they say it would bring with it inseparable consequents belike thereof I will trouble you only with three mens testimonies who it seemeth haue collected together that which is thought fit to be published to this purpose If vve had this gouernment God vvould blesse our victuals and satisfie our poore vvith bread hee vvould cloath our priests vvith saluation and his saints should shout for ioy It is best and surest for our state and there is nothing comparable to the establishing of it for her maiesties safetie It vvould make men to increase in vvealth and that they vvould not easily be dravvne after any great man to sedition and rebellion That her Maiesties person hath bene so oft in danger that we haue had some dearth of late yeares and that the Spaniards attempted to inuade this land they ascribe it to the want of this their gouernment It vvould cut off contentions and sutes of lavv c. by censuring the partie that is troublesome and contentious and vvithout reasonable cause vpon euill vvill and stomacke should vex and molest his brother and trouble the countrie If this gouernment vvere restored then you should see learning nourished young and olde called from blindnes to light from wickednes to vertue and pietie Then many woulde change their studies from Law Phisicke Musicke scholing c. and manye would leaue their trades and parentes would thinke theyr cost well bestowed and diuerse waies comforted to preferre their children to the studie of Diuinity Then there woulde be an vnity of the Church Then should the Papist quaile the Anabaptist waile and the Atheistes be amazed There could not bee so many seduced hanged aud quartered as there are Then no licences could steale away mens daughters the people should finde out the trueth and perfection of
Letters And surely I am greatlie confirmed in my former opinion by the examples which such like innouators in Germany doe bring forth Video enim illis hominibus nihil ambitiosius nihil insolentius nihil ineptius fingi posse For whereas there are many thinges most wickedly done by them daily yet they are not ashamed to pretende the zeale of God in excuse of those thinges which contrarie to the worde of God they deuise both wickedly and maliciouslie against the seruauntes of Christ. But as farre as I canne coniecture many by whose counsaile and assistaunce the frame of this Discipline was chiefely erected are nowe ashamed of them But that which Maister Gualter writte the same yeare to Bishop Sands is most pertinent I vnderstand that the strife amongest you procured by certain turbulent innouators doth wax hotte and that they are gone so farre that vnder the plausible title of good order and Discipline they desire the whole gouernement and pollicy of the Church of England to be vtterly ouerthrowen Surely I should meruaile at the immodesty and wilfull desire of contention in these men but that I see the same in practise else-where especiallie in all those places where the authority of the bretheren of Geneua is so greatly esteemed that Geneua is accounted the Oracle of all Christendome God hath indeed adorned that Church with diuerse excellent gifts and the Ministers thereof amongest whom Maister Beza I haue alwaies reuerenced and loued and doe so still But yet I would wish them modestiùs humiliùs sapere and not seeke to draw their shooe vppon euery mans foote c. What hath beene done in the Palsegraues Countrey I writte vnto you before Surely the state there as touching Discipline and the gouernement of the Church all men that come thence doe say it is worse then it was before and it is sure that many doe repent that they euer admitted these mens counsaile But yet the Geneuians doc still endeuour to thrust that their Discipline vppon all Churches And if they shall deny this they may bee sufficiently conuinced by the Booke of Theologicall examples that Beza published this other yeare that they suggest their arguments and councels not onelye to you Englishmen but in like sorte to the Germans Phrisians Polonians and Hungarians whereby amongest those that agreede well together before rixae turbae enascuntur brawlings and quarrels doe arise c. And so hauing signified what troubles the innouators beyond the seas as well as in England doe procure to the Church he moueth the Bishop to doe as he and Maister Bullinger did that is to moderat such busie wittes as they might for a time For saith he spero aedificium hoc nouae Disciplinae breui propria mole ruiturum quando satis constat iam eius pertaesos esse qui priús illud admirabantur I hope the frame of this new Discipline will in short time fall of it selfe considering that many are nowe become wearie of it that had it before in admiration An other likewise a Gantois a very graue and learned man as well acquainted with this Discipline as Maister Cartwright is being desired to write his opinion whether it had brought forth such effectes in Holland as is before pretended it would doe in England for aunswere saieth Is any man able to repeate the monstrous Heresies and errors that Holland doth nourishe c. vnder the shadowe of reformed religion this is aimed at vz. that the turpitude of all blasphemies being couered with this cloake may lie hid and that it may be lawfull without controlement if anie list to recall the old Paganisme or to professe Mahomets Religion or what worse is if there be anie thing worse Againe the Magistrates haue inuaded the Church-goods The Ministers haue little allowaunce There is no respect of the study of Diuinitie The Magistrates doe suspect the forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernement first becāuse they feare least it will degenerate into a worse tyrannie then the Spanishe Inquisition Secondly for that they see a new Senat of Elders in their Townes to exercise with the Ministers a censure of manners without lawes but such as they make themselues and without anie lawfull forme of Iustice. The olde Canon law is abrogated and the Magistrates will allow no new For they feare that the new would prooue worse then the olde Besides they will not committe the fame of themselues and theirs to the arbitrement of ignoraunt men such as for the most parte their Elders are who may abuse their authority rashly and laie such an infamy of adulterie or other grieuous offence vpon a mans backe as hee shall not afterwards easily cast from him The Ministers desire that the Magistrates would punish those that disobey their commaundements which they will neuer doe except they may first by due course of law heare the cause they of that Consistory being either actors or accusers and that the Ministers and Elders refuse to doe c. Besides some of the Ministers themselues that professe the Gospell are not free from those swarmes of Heresie which doe make their hiues there c. And in an other letter speakinge of the generall euent of that kinde of discipline Vereor ne exemplum Geneuensis ecclesiae et quarundam aliarum ecclesiarū quae eam secutae sunt maiorem quà m vulgo creditur perniciem ecclesiae adferat I feare least the example of the church of Geneua and some other Churches that followe her may bring greater mischiefe to the Church then is commonly beleeued One William Hart a minister the preacher not long since at Emden notwithstandinge all their goodly reformation in those partes yet writ in this sort therof vnto his secret friend M. Field Corruption by custome is so strong that none can abide the yoake and wonder you would if you sawe what grosse thinges the best ministers doe cleane deuoure and those of the middle sort doe earnestly stande and pleade for If you did see the confused state of the Churches of these countries you would say that England howe badde soeuer were a paradise in comparison and yet I haue not forgotten the blots and wantes thereof The trueth which he speaketh of the Church of England is to bee imbraced for the rest you may ascribe it vnto his factious humors Furthermore also there are some other countries not yet mentioned where the pretended discipline is in practise and yet there are noe such fruites founde thereof as are ascribed vnto the intertainement of it Be pleased to heare what an espetiall man of some one countrie a minister a gentleman greatly descended a person of chiefe aestimation hath published to the worlde in print Cum priuilegio Regali and procured to be sent abroade into other countries in certaine of his seruauntes names The prophane multitude of this kingdom they disdain the word spitefully There are two sins ioyned in the prophane multitude glottony and bloud They go forward in all course of sin the