in England and planted a true Church And therefore if you deale rightly you must proue against vs. I haue shewed that popery did not vtterly destroy the visible Church And there be at this day multitudes that so walke in the holy fayth that no man is able to accuse them And therefore if either all or the most part of Schismatikes were not obstinate cauillers their mouthes might be stopped for euer Thus much might fuffice agaynst that you affirme our people neuer had any entrance to be vnder the couenant and so to stand the visible Church but to be as heapes of prophane heathen but that your matter reacheth further then against the assemblies in England condemning other Churches which professe the holy Gospel And least some may think that in this poynt I charge ye but by some hard collection in so horrible presumption as to condemne all Christian Churches I will recite the wordes which you haue set downe in your other booke pag. 33. where after long discourse agaynst the reasons which Master Caluine vseth both out of the olde and new Testament to proue that neither the worship it selfe nor the faythfull are defiled by the company of the open wicked you speake thus This and such like detestable stuffe hath Master Caluine in his ignorance partly to confute that damnable sect of Annabaptists which fantastically dreame vnto theÌ„selues a Church without spot in this life and for euery transgression that ariseth are ready to leaue forsake the felowship of the Church without due and orderly reproofe Partly also is this stuffe brought to defend his owne rash and disorderly proceedings at Geneua whilest hee at the first dash made no scruple to receiue all the whole state euen all the prophane ignorant people into the bosome of the Church to administer the Sacraments vnto them which confuse route could not fit with Christs heauenly gouernement neither could it by any meanes agree vnto them in this estate But that monstrous disorders and haynous enormityes dayly ensued thereof whereby this their Church became a iust reproch vnto all men euen to those wicked Heretikes yea that which is worse and more to be lamented it became a miserable president and pernitious example euen vnto all Europe to fall into the like transgression as the confused estate of all those regions where the Gospell is thus disorderly taught declareth Let the Reader here consider Master Barrow what a worthie Champion you â—re become for the Papists for Heretickes and Schismaticks agaynst all the Churches which professe the Gospell and agaynst all their teachers What was Master Caluine to bee regarded if he were so ignorant so rash and so disorderly in his doings How miserable was his case that he must be so pernitious an example to the ruine of many What is or what hath the Church of Geneua been and together with the assemblies of England all Churches in Europe but heapes of prophane multitudes no better then heathen or dogs if your words be true True Christ they haue none for they fit not his gouernment nor his gouernment them as you say But Master Barrow as the Churches and their ministers haue been able haue iustly defended themselues though not from all faults because there is no Church so pure agaynst the wisest and learnedst reuiling Rabsakaes the Hereticks and Schisinaticks so must you thinke that they shall be able to withstand two or thrée which are so ignorant in some grounds of religion as that their bookes are a bundle or rather a dunghill of absurdities Whom shal you euer perswade that hath any true light that your knowledge so farre passeth the learned of all Churches Were it not honour enough for ye to triumph ouer the ministers of the Church of England whom so often in disdayne you terme learned Priests but ye must be generall conquetors like Alexander the great Faine you would seeme to bee farre from the Annabaptists but how néere you are vnto them euen in their tents all that haue skill doo see Well then to conclude this poynt he that will finde a true Church with which he may ioyne himselfe he must not seeke it in the publike assemblies either in England Scotland Geneua or any region of Europe for by your iudgement they be all prophane heapes but he must seeke the fellowship and ioyne with the Donatists of England Now to the second part of the assumption where you say that the Church of England hath power to cast foorth none by excommunication I am of the minde that Christ hath giuen such a power to his Church and also doo take it that the Church of England is not boyd thereof But you condemne all excommunication which is not executed by an Eldership and the people of euery particular assemblie If excommunication be onely to bee so executed then how could Esra with the Elders and Princes of Israel publish an excommunication generall against euery one that should not within three dayes come vp to Ierusalem Esra 10. vers 8. And where doo you proue that excommunication is to be executed vpon any but for contumacie and contempt of the Church Doo you hold that a man which doth repent him for his adulterie these heresie or such like and is cast downe in sorrowe is yet to be deliuered vp to Satan If not why doo you vpbrayd that there is none cast foorth among vs but for contumacie In the next place you take vpon you to confute and cut downe foure false expositions as you say of Math. 18. vers 17. Tell the Church The first sort take the word Church for the Pope the second for the Archbishops and Bishops which exercise this power for the whole Church the third for the companie of the Elders apart from the people which they call the Consistorie the fourth are they which would haue the people excommunicate without the Elders The two first sorts that is the Pope and the Bishops doo depend you say vppon one line and build their preheminence vpon the promise made to the Apostle Peter Math. 16. vers 18. 19. where the keyes of the kindome of heauen are giuen him And vpon the Apostle Paul his example who deliuered Hymeneus and Alexander vnto Satan Timoth. 5. 10. You are so learned and skilfull Master Barrow yea so trustie and true that wee must holde them for Oracles that doo proceede out of your mouth although indeed they be neuer so false as shall appeare Touching the place in Mat. 16. for the keyes giuen vnto Peter it is agreed vpon by all parts that there is a power giuen to be exercised in the Church The disagréement is chiefly about this to whom it is giuen The Pope with his adherents sayth it was giuen onely vnto Peter and his successors He sayth further that Peter was Bishop of Rome that there is his chaire and that this power is annexed to that chaire and so the Pope alone is to haue it and from him all other are to participate which
⧠A short Reply vnto the last printed books of Henry Barrow and Iohn Greenwood the chiefe ringleaders of our Donatists in England VVherein is layd open their grosse ignorance and foule errors vpon which their whole building is founded By George Gyfford Minister of Gods holy worde in Maldon Imprinted at London by Thomas Orwin for Tobie Cooke and are to be solde at the Tygers head in Pauls Churchyard 1591 To the Reader THere were good Christian Reader foure haynous accusatioÌ„s laid against the Church of England for which the accusers haue condemned her all her publique assemblies as most wicked Antichristian Idolatrons synagogues of Sathan I shewed how falsely they doo accuse and howe presumptuously agaynst God they doo condemne And that indeede they are the very same with the auncient Donatists They haue replyed and published in print their defence but their bookes are intercepted yet some few haue escaped and are dispersed among theyr fellowes Wherefore I hold it needfull to publish some answere not dealing with euery error and absurditie for that would aske the trauaile of some yeares but onely with the chiefe grounds of their Schisme In this I trust euery simple man that hath a Christian heart shall see the effectuall power of Sathan when he turneth himselfe into the likenes of an Angell of light to seduce ignorant men which are lifted vp in their mindes with opinion of their knowledge For being men vnlearned onely some little froth excepted I speake thus because they peruert that little which they haue read in other means writings in sundry poynts yet as if they were sent from heauen with reuelations or as great Apostles they take vpon them to confute and controll and condemne all Churches and all the most worthy Instruments which GOD hath raysed vp in these last times For knowe this good Reader that the foure accusations which they haue brought agaynst the Church of England to condemne her â—â—â— also though with some differences brought against all Churches in Europe and that in expresse wordes in these their last bookes For the prescript formes of prayers which all the Reformed Churches doo vse they condemne as most horrible and 〈◊〉 blasphemie The people they say are prophane multitudes They say that in all Europe in all these knowen partes of the world there is no minister of Christ The gouernment by Elderships they condemne as a most proude thing as being without any warrant of Gods word Doo but readeouer these fewe things which I haue noted out of their bookeâ— and iudge how fit they be for such a work as they haue taken in hand whether it be like that GOD hath sent them euen as it were Moses and Aaron to conduct his people out of Aegipt from vnder the bondage of Pharaoh for so they take it as appeareth by their owne wordes speaking of those which cleaue vnto them Many they see by Gods mightie hand say they escaped and marching with the banner of the Gospell displayed before all the inchaunters of Aegipt and Pharaoh his troupes pag. 5. of the Epistle And if it seeme lost time to stand vpon such grosse things yet take this profit as to see how needfull it is not to be high minded and presumptuously bolde in Gods matters but to feare and tremble with Humilitie To Master Barrow and Master Greenwood YE complaine much of hard dealing offered you and say ye are blasphemed with odious tearmes And if ye doo erre your desire is to be reduced by a Christian manner It is certaine when men are cleane awâ—ye in simplicitie the matter toucheth but themselues they are to be dealt withall without seeking their disgrace But when they be publike and notorious seducers defacing Christs Ministers and many poore sheepe of Christ are in hazard to be spoyled They that take it to be vncharitable dealing to disclose and to paynt out such seducers in their colours and to disgrace them vtterly to the end that the simple may not be spoyled by theÌ„ as a praie doo want some iudgement For as it is Christian charitie in the Shepheards to deale meekely with the sheepe so is it high treachery and vnfaythfull dealing to Christ and his Church when the VVoolfe dooth come in sheepes clothing not to pluck it off and to let the sheepe see that he is a VVoolfe VVhy else did our Sauiour call the Pharisies hypocrites Serpents and generations of Vipers VVhy sayd S. Paule of the false Apostles beware of dogges Ye haue drawen many into an outragious presumption against God and his people flat contrary to the rules of his holy word as shall appeare in the discourse Ye hauerent out of the hearts of many all reuerence and loue towards the preachers of the Gospell and led them into such a presumptuous opinion of their owne vnderstanding that if they become not heretikes yet experience doth teach that many of them growe into irreligious prophanenes Master Barrow and Master Greenwood I doo not know your persons and I protest vnto ye there is no priuate thing hath moued me to seeke your disgrace but indeede the care of Christs sheepe And let it appeare by the things which follow whether I haue done ye any wrong A short Replie vnto the last printed Bookes of Henry Barrow and Iohn Greenwood the chiefe ringleaders of our Donatistes in England I Did lay to your charge M Barrow and Master Greenwood a matter very haynous and detestable yea most odious in the sight of euery good man as namely intollerable pride presumption and wicked intrusion into Gods office for that ye vtterly condemne and abandon all our assemblies as haynousty faulty and so wilfully obstinate in such principall transgressions as that they haue forfayted the couenant and are separated from the fayth and communion of Christ I set downe reasons from Gods word to conuince yee in this that if it pleased God ye might repent for this sauage crueltie by which ye indeuour to rend and teare vp all the Lords tender plants If not yet that others might see tremble at your inordinate and outragious boldenes Vnto this ye haue replied stifly affirming and labouring to maintayne that ye haue rightly condemned and cast foorth our assemblies as most wicked Antichristian Synagogues Adding moreouer that ye lie in prison as Christs poore afflicted seruants the Lords witnesses agaynst vs that your bonds and sufferings are glorious and that I as a wicked false Prophet and as a marked seruant of Antichrist haue vncharitably reuiled ye both for those former wordes as also that I that tearme you Donatistes Schismatikes c. If ye be Christs seruants and haue iustly accused condemned and cast forth doing no more that Christ hath sent ye for and authorised ye to doo then haue I vnchristianly and as a false Prophet indeede reuiled ye and your glorious sufferinges But then take this withall by the way that the Donatists in olde time and the Annabaptists of late daies were Christs poore afflicted
that erreth Which is nothing els indeede but confusedly in stead of putting difference betwixt error and beresie to note the difference betwixt a man that erreth in simplicitie and an hereticke In deed because S. Paule sayth That an hereticke is peruerted and sinneth condemned of himselfe Tit. 3. And that such cause offences and diuisions contrary to the wholesome doctrine which we haue learned Rom. 16. We hold them not hereticks vnlesse they bee conuinced and obstinatly despise the iudgement of God and the iudgement of the Church conuincing them by the light of the word and seeke to peruert others and to draw them into their faction But will it hereupon followe that no error is of it selfe an heresie vnlesse it light into such a man as obstinatly will holde and teach it Or that euery error euen the least by obstinacie of man ioyned with it becommeth heresie Then you say thus in effect euery error is an heresie no error is an heresie This Master Barrow is your déepe skill which ye boast of that ye haue learned for if the man put the difference by his obstinacie it must needes be so Then let me aske ye where ye haue learned yâ— to deny the vnitie of the Godhead is not an heresie or yâ— trinitie of persons in the same or to deny that Christ is God or that he is man vnlesse the man that erreth in them be conuinced and found obstinate Are not these and such like heresies in themselues although the men that erre in them be not conuinâ—â—â—â—â—t hold them ignorantly Agayne shew vs where ye haue â—â—â—rned that euery error euen to the least being in an hereticke becommeth an heresie Thus may the reader see how confusedly ye haue put that to distinguish errors which doth but distinguish betweene the men that doo erre In the next place where you say that the error must be duely conuinced vnto the conscience of the man that erreth before he can be so wilfully obstinate as doth separate him from the faith and from the communion of Christ ye speake some trueth but ye speake ye knowe not what For it ye could see it is so farre from cléering ye from presumptuous intrusion into Gods office that it vtterly ouerthroweth ye and your former words and somewhat which ye write elsewhere in this booke being laid with it becommeth a very snare for to hold ye Ye haue accused the Church of England condemned and cast her foorth for wilful obstinacie as quite separated from Christ now let vs see how duely ye haue conuinced out whole Church all the assemblies and all the particular members in the same and found them hereticks First remember your owne words in this place that ye doubt not neither euer thought but that the best Church which consisteth of mortall men may fall either of negligence or ignorance into grieuous offences and dangerous errors and that some famous Churches and Christians may fall into such errors as I terme fundamentall c. Touching the faults which you charge the Church of England withall in our worship in our people in our Ministrie and gouernment Ecclesiasticall albeit in the whole course of your writings your speaches be merueilous excessiue yet in the 180 181 182. pages of this your booke agaynst me ye plainly confesse them to bee such as right excellent Christians haue ignorantly erred and dyed in For speaking of those which suffered death for religion in our Church ye call them godly Martyrs saying that ye doubt not of their happie and blessed estate all their sinnes and these false offices and ministrie which they executed in their ignorance among the rest being forgiuen them These be your owne words Master Barrow which I haue set downe You acknowledge them to bee godly blessed Martyrs they erred you say in these things but of simplicitie through ignorance If those principall men were ignorant in these matters then is it no meruaile if all the rest in the land were ignorant in them which imbraced the Gospell Vpon this it followeth that the Church of England was or might bee a true Church vntill such time as she was duely conuinced of â—er errors and found obstinate And if she hath not been duely conuinced and found in such wilfull obstinacie as doth quite separate from the faith and from the communion of Christ then is she still or may bee the true Church hauing it may bee for ought that you knowe and there is no likelihood to the contrarie many thousands in her which are readie to shed their bloud for the holy Gospell of Christ And then how wicked and how accursed is your presumption in condemning her vtterly Nay say you but she is conuinced and all your assemblies and found so wilfully obstinate in maintayning her errors euen against her knowledge that she hath forfaited the couenant and is separated from the communion of Christ This is your bare accusation you may not cary away the matter so for then indeede ye may easily cleare your selues from wicked intrusion into Gods office but wee must examine 〈◊〉 ye graunt there must be a due conuincing first what it 〈…〉 be duly conuinced then when and by whome she hath been â—â— such sorte or so duly conuinced as ye charge her and yet found obstinate This is the rule that one brother offending is not to loose the dignitie and place of a Christian and to be reputed as an heathen vntill such time as he bee conuinced by the Church and found so obstinate that he doth despise her iudgement and authoritie This is the onely due conuincing and here is the onely power to east foâ—rth as heathen a man in some offence conuinced And shall not a Church haue as great priuiledge as a man Is it not more then absurd to say one man cannot be cast foorth as an heathen for obstinacie in some offence agaynst priuate admonitions but whole Churches may All the true Churches haue conuinced the Church of Rome and condemned her as obstinate not in some light offences in which true Christians may erre but as most blasphemous and Idolatrous against the principles of fayth and grounds of Religion teaching that no Christian man ought to ioyne with her But what Churches are they which haue conuinced the Church of England of such errors and found her so obstinate that they haue condemned her and willed all men to forsake her O M. Barrow you shall finde that all the godly Churches are so farre from this that contrariwise they acknowledge her for a sister Looke then againe vpon your horrible presumption and see who hath giuen you such power aboue and agaynst all Churches If ye minde obstinately to persist in your euill without warrant and euen agaynst this manifest worde of God being much better ye should fall downe and bewayle your vngodly wayes and seeke for pardon ye haue no way to shift or to colour your wickednes but this that men may bee conuinced of error by particular persons and that so
you some speciall reuelation or doe yee knowe the secrets of all mens hearts You sée by the Church in IerusaleÌ„ that men may ignorantly remayne still in error if the blessed Apostles themselues should lay downe matter against the same vnto them But to conuince you I may reason from your own wordes for Master Barrow if that be true which you holde touching gouernment ecclesiasticall which is the chiefe matter in question the Church of England cannot bee conuinced by that which either our owne or men of other Churches haue set foorth We haue béene perswaded that the gouernement ecclesiasticall ought to be by one of these two that is to say either by Bishops or by presbyteries and you condemne both The gouernement by Bishops ye tearm Antichristian And of those which stand for a gouernement by Presbyteries thus you write pag. 189. of your other booke These men would bring in a new adulterate forged gouernement in shew or rather in despight of Christs blessed gouernement which they in their pride rashnes ignorance and sensuallity of their fleshly hearts most miserablie innonâ—ate corrupt and peruert Also in the pag. 166. you terme it a deuilish forgerie In this booke agaynst mee you call it a presumptuous 〈…〉 yee say it hath no ground in the word of God but vtterly subuerteth the whole order and communion of the Church c. pag. 79. Is it so Master Barrow then how hath our Church béen conuinced in conscience by those which bring no warrant of Gods word for that which they would set vp being vndoubtedly perswaded as I haue sayd that one of the two ought to be a third as yet not hauing been shewed how haue they I say by your speach been so duely conuinced And further it may bee sayd which is of great force agaynst ye that if all the learned men in other Churches and those in our Church which stand for the gouernment by presbyteries haue erreâ— so grofely as you accuse them why may not they that maintaine the other gouernment erre also of ignorance Master Barrow these poore shifts will not defend ye before God but that ye haue intruded into his seate vnlesse you haue surer ground that all bee conuinced For what if some should be conuinced in some matters yet wheÌ„ they protest the contrary who can iudge them but God And now seeing it hath not been done by these therefore it resteth onely vpon your selues let vs come to see what you haue done It cannot bee but you haue conuinced all you haue opened so many matters Yea but before your matters came to the sight and knowledge of the thousand man I might say almost to the sight of any ye had abandoned and condemned all without any order What a conuincing is this And when they be come abroad I meane your writings though not vnto the hands of all nor yet of the greater part wee must vppon your bare word contrary to our owne knowledge admit many foule and false accusations we must vpon your warrant allowe many fantasticall opinions we must condemne all the Churches and iustifie the Donatists and Annabaptists or els we cannot he by you conuinced Your outragious dealing being such as almost hath not been seene which shall appeare by laying open somewhat of your bookes and your grosse errors with palpable ignorance to be wondered at euen of the vnlearned how shall wee thinke that God hath sent ye as it were great Apostles to conuince and to refor me all You say Christ hath sent ye but in very deede Satan in the likenes of an Angell of light hath most miserably seduced ye Ye say often that many in our Church haue been and are perswaded that there be many faults and â—or not these then sinne agaynst their conscience in as much as they ioyne still with it Master Barrow it is a foule hereticall opinion to hold that a man may not ioyne with that Church which holdeth and maintaineth some faults and errors Did the holy Apostles refuse to ioyne with the multitude in Ierusalem which held the Ceremonies Doth not S. Paule labour in diuers places to ioyne them together in peace which in some matters held and continued in diuers iudgement Read the Rom. 14. and 15. for this poynt Thus much might suffice to shewe your horrible and inexcusable presumption contrary to the rules of Gods word in condemning as quite separated from Christ the whole Church in the land all particular assemblies and all seuerall persons both yong and old men and women in the same whom yet ye haue neuer seene much lesse admonished and conuinced but that your words which yet remayne vntouched I meane of those which I set downe do drawe me further There be three things yet remayning in your former words in which ye erre foully whereby all men shall see how farre off ye are from making any iust defence of your vngodly presumption And your selues shall knowe if the Lord open your harts that it is but a thicke couering of darknes and ignorance â—nder which ye lye shrouded and as ye imagine shielded from the sinne and from the danger of intrusion into Gods office when ye condemne as heathen and infidels all our assemblies The first of the thrée and the second also are in these words when ye say and heresie in that man or in that congregation thatso holdeth teacheth it doth separate from the faith c. Thus ye reason If a man be in an error and be duely conuinced and found obstinate so that he obstinately persist in and teach his error euen agaynst his conscience wee may safely iudge that man to haue no faith nor communion with Christ The same is to be sayd of a congregation and so of the whole Church of England and of all the assemblies therein and of al particular members of the same being all in one estate and condition that is to say duely conuinced and found obstinate How farre wée may proceed in iudgeing a man voyd of faith for obstinacie we shall see in the next placeâ— here I begin with and note how blindly and how absurdly in your consequence of being conuinced ye compare a Church and one man together For a man erring and his error reproued either the whole man is conuinced and is obstinate or els the whole man erreth still in iguorance But it is farre otherwise in a visible Church because in it there bee sundry sorts of members which may not be all foulded vp together 〈◊〉 one sentence For looke vpon the visible Church of Israel at such time as our Sauiour was borne liued vpon the earth and we shall see there were in it excellent godly ones as the blessed Virgin the Father and mother of Iohn the Baptist Anna the Prophetisse olde Symeon and many others There were heapes of ignorant people called the lost sheepe of the house of Israel Math. 10. And there were the Scribes and Pharisies which held and taught obstinately very wicked errors It
vpon ye to abandon and forsake as vtterly separated from the faith and from the Communion of Christ all the assemblies of the Church of England and all the particular members of the same theÌ„ a thicke couering of darkenes which the bright countenance of the great Iudge will pearce through and scatter Ye lye in prison not as Christs poore afflicted seruants but for this grieuous and outragious sinne which no flesh is able to defend or mitigate and for sundry other abuses as shall appear by your bookes I saide that the fearefull end of one Boltom about twentie yeares past would not be forgotten You haue heard as you say pag. 208 that he reuolted and became a conformable member of our Church and so fel into that fearefull estate Seeke better information Master Barrow seeing the example may touch ye for the trueth is he did for the same causes that you doo vtterly coudemne the whole Church of England and was with sundry other separated from it And as it is constantly affirmed he was an elder in their secret Church and ofterward falling into deepe dispaire he could not be recouered but did hang himselfe The matâ—er which pressed him so sore was this that bee had iudged and condemned men better then himselfe Looke yee therefore vnto it in time and seeke repentance before the terror of God breake forth vpon ye and that it be to late for it is euident vnto all that haue any true light in them that your offence herein can haue no excuse or colour beare not your selues vpon other things in your bookes for it shallâ—ppeare that where yee thinke your selues most deuine there Satan hath most deepely deluded yee glorie not of any sufferings vnles yee will haue those also to glorie which are bound in bedliâ—â— Hauing thus finished about wilfull obstinacie we come now to the fower principall accusations which ye bring against our Church The first is that we worship God after a false manner our worship being made of the inuention of man euen of that man of sinne erronious and imposed vpon vs. And here came the booke of common praier into question I did drawe your accusation into a Sillogisme and you accuse me to be so full of legiet dâ— main that ye had neede to looke to my fingers for ye say I haue left out certaine of your words as namely these wilfully obstinate and imposed Touthing these words wilfully obstinate looke Master Barrow in the fourth and fift pages of my booke and see whether I did not answer them where you haue expressely set them downe looke also vpon your own booke now printed and you shall finde that both in the accusation you haue omitted these words wilfully abstinate and also passed by mine answer vnto them Now when these two that is the omitting the words and passing by the answer vnto them doo concurre here is a great shew of legier du maine on your part and yet you would lay it vpon me that haue not giuen the least suspitioÌ„ therof And for the word imposed you say I leaue it out and put c. in the place thereof I doo indeede setdowne c for these words erronious and imposed vpon them but doo I leaue them out in handling the matter Looke in the tenth page and see whether I doo not charge ye with an Annabaptisticall freedome which ye are not able to auoyde for this worde imposed Master Barrow looke vppon them learne modestie and blush if not for conscience yet that these things must now lie open to the view of the world And for the booke of common Praier although the question betwéene vs was not whether there bee faultes in it but whether it â—e as you tearme it a great pregnant Idoll full of heresies blasphemies a bominations whether there be any heresies in it And whether the best part of it be none other but a peece of swines flesh an abomination to the Lord Yet you charge me as flying the trial by the word of God when I stand to iustifie by the word of God that in deede there is neither Idolatrie heresie nor blasphemie in it much lesse that it is full of them or the best part an abhomination For in mine answers and defence I doo not vndertake to cleare it of all faults hauing no occasion to meddle in that controuersie but to shew that there are no such faultes but that both the faithfull people of God haue and mayerre in also euen christian gouernours and teachers which are to reforme the church that if any doo see and be perswaded that they be corruptions and faultes yet not of that qualitie or degree as that they may for the same separate themselues from the fellowship of those which art otherwise minded this is the thing which I haue taken vpon mee to defend And if you Master Barrow wil not become a ranke heretick as if it please God you shall not to maintaine this opinion that we may not ioyne in that worship where wee finde any imperfections and errors holden and not reformed why doo you with wonderment crie out that this so large an exception of imperfections is the odde and onely exception that euer you heard of And doo you in very deede Master Barrow thinke that no such exception is to bee made but that where any error doth appeare in the worship a man is to separate himselfe Nay you will say when it is reproued and continued in and not reformed then a man is to forsake that Church as vtterly fallen from the couenant of God For they be obstinate and denie reformation Tell me then what if those that be to reforme be perswaded it is no error What if a great part of the multitude be so perswaded that it is no fault and so bee of diuerse mindes Will you deeme that you haue more skill to conuince them then the Apostles had Or will you refuse to ioyne as the Apostles did ioyne with the Church in Ierusalem that held and continued in a grosse error Doo you not see how by this your doctrine you open the doore as wide vnto all Schismaticks as euer did the Donatists or the Annabaptists seeing there will euer be errors and some that cannot be made to see them Will you not see how you contrarie Saint Paule directly who in whole chapters almost as I haue noted before dooth labour nothing else but to perswade the Christians that held diuers opinions touching some things in Gods worship yet to ioyne together Rom. 14. and 15. what a multitude of words with your accustomed reuilings and slanders haue you here heaped vp But I will deale onely with that which is not answered alreadie You charged our Church with Romish fasts I charged you with falâ—e accusing because the Church of Rome most wickedly against the Crosse of Christ placeth the worship of God and the merite of eternall life in fasting which doctrine our Church vtterly condemneth You labour to shew faultes in
remembrance the Collect wherein the Priest by the authoritie committed vnto him doth absolue the sick of all his sinnes Indeed you tolde vs that this is most high blasphemie and that nothing can be more popish But learne you Master Barrow by the Scripture and remember that God hath giuen a power to the ministrie of the Gospell to forgiue sinnes The power indeede is but ministeriall and so the booke it selfe declareth where it sayth He hath giuen power and commandement to his ministers to declare and pronounce to his people being penitent the absolution and remission of their sinnes Other power in the minister to forgiue sinnes then this the booke alloweth none How the Pope doth challenge this power to himselfe as head and how from him it must be deriued vnto all Ministers how farre also he hath extended it and how horribly and blasphemously he hath abused it I will not stand to shewe Then next you say I must not forget the two Collects sayd ouer our dead brother The one in which we say that God of his mercie hath taken away the soule of our brother c. This is not ment but where the partie dieth in the profession of the faith and repentance nor yet absolutely to pronounce him saued but in a charitable manner of speach to iudge of him as he professed I doo not take it the meaning of the booke that it should be vttered of such as make no profession of the holy faith for why then should he be called a brother or vpon whome God doth shewe his fearefull iudgement if it be otherwise it may be a fault but not blasphemie The other is that we pray for the soule of our brother departed where we say that wee with this our brother and all other departed in the true faith may haue our perfect consummation and blisse both in body and soule Prayer for the dead is a grosse error but yet not simply in it selfe an heresie or blasphemie and our Church dooth vtterly condemne it as a grosse error And therefore Master Barrow you do still but belye the booke which directeth herein to pray onely for our selues liuing and not for the dead For if the mention of receiuing blisse with that brother departed were to pray for him then should it be meant that wée would also pray for the soules of Abraham Isaack and Iaakob of the Prophets and Apostles because they are included in these words with all other departed in the true faith In the third place you are so kinde that as you say to helpe my memorie a little further you will mee to consider better of that glorious Anthem which wee say at our Communion that we with Angels and Archangels and all the companie of heauen lawd and magnifie c. Here you will not demaund how wee remaining in the flesh can haue such familiar conuersation with those heauenly Souldiers that together with them wee can praise God You will not demaund that is you doo in a fine retoricall sort demaund it but the finenes of this retoricke will not couer the sottishnes of your ignorance For albeit men in earth haue not familiar conuersation with Angels yet they prayse God together with them in as much as both men and Angels do lawd and magnifie him And therefore the Prophet Psal 103. calling vppon all things to prayse the Lord ioyneth the Angels saying Praise the Lord ye Angels which are strong in power Reade also for this the first chapter of the Reuel verl 12 13 14. Then you will not presse vs with papisticall speculations of making degrees of Angels and Archangels c. In very deede you cannot but with falsehood presse our Church with that But you demaund how many Archangels we reade of and finde in the Scriptures and whether wee knowe of any more heads of Angels then Christ himselfe We knowe and constantly professe that there is but one head of Angels which is Christ And we condemne the popish curiositie in searching into the degrees and orders of Angels which is not learned out of the holy Scriptures but from that counterfeit Dionisius Areopagita And if that Michael the Archangel which stroue with the diuell about the body of Moses and durst not giue rayling sentence were Christ yet S. Paule speaketh of an Archangell besides Christ when he sayth The Lord himself shal come downe from heauen with the voyce of the Archangell and with the trumpe of God 1. Thess 4. vers 16. What blasphemie then Master Barrow is there in the booke which speaketh but as the Scripture and you may see plainly that to be a chiefe Angell or an Archangell is not to be the head of Angels The sainctifying the floud Iordain and all other waters to the mysticall washing away of sinne is none other way to be taken then to say that bread and wine are sainctified to represent the body and bloud of Christ All the creatures of God are sainctified to our vse as the blessed Apostle speaketh Touching Michael and all Angels we do not worship Angels nor yet make Christ a creature You say that in the Letanie there is prayer for all that trauaile by sea or by land for all that be sicke for all sicke persons therefore we pray for Gods enemies for the breach of all order and destruction both of Church and common wealth This is but a vayne collection when prayer is intended for such as are prayed for that they may be turned from their euill Also when this word all is vsed it goeth with this restraint all that belong vnto God for so is Saint Paule to be also restrayued vnto all sorts of men which belong vnto God when he willeth to pray for al men 1. Tim. 2. You demaund where wee learne to pray agaynst lightning and thunder tempest plague famine battaile c. when there is no present feare or danger thereof Then it seemeth by your words that wée may intreate the Lord to turne away none of his grieuous and feareful plagues but when they be vpon vs We sée there are euer anon some which are stricken with thunder and when the clap is past it is too late to pray for them Againe the praiers of the Church are for all the true members thereof wheresoeuer and if wee our selues bee not in this present neede yet others are and wée may be if God turne not a way his displeasure these praiers are not to restraine the Lord the vse of his creatures or that he should not by them destroy his enemies these bee no sound collections Unles you will argue thus the Lord afflicteth his Church by persecutions by famine and pestilence c. for their good and for the glory of his owne name therefore the church ought not to pray to be deliuered from those things Wée are willed to be alwaies ready for death and suddaine death cannot preuent any one of the faithfull I doo confesse But yet wée estéeme it a great comfort a great blessing for
haue this power whole and seuerall by it selfe I take it you shall neuer be able to prooue that it ought to be much lesse shall you be able to prooue them to bee no true Churches which haue not in euery seuerall congregation established the power of excommunication For touching excommunication there be Churches which are true Churches of Christ which haue it not nor iudge it needefull Master Beza in his booke against Erastus pag. 2. sayth that he was charged by some to esteeme them to be no Churches which wanted excommunication or such a Presbyterie which was vniustly layd to his charge as he sayth the perpetuall conuiction of him and those Churches did sufficiently witnes You haue more worke in hand here Master Barrow then you bee wate of For if you had proued that the Church of England hath no power to excommunicate yet there remayneth a further thing which is not so easie as you take it to bee conuinced namely that it is no true Church of Christ which hath no excommunication All Churches are against you in this poynt and the light of the truth will be as strong agaynst you as it hath beene agaynst the Annabaptists Here you make the chalenge anewe and say If I would vouchsafe to take mine aduersaries with me into the field and giue them leaue to bring and to vse their owne weapons I answere that for all your outcries yet there hath been no one weapon taken from ye nor yet cut shorter That speciall weapon which you now haue drawen and burnished wherein you repose your trust is this Where all the prophane and vngodly are receiued into and retayned in the Church as members thereof there cannot bee sayd the true established Church of Christ But in the Church of England all the prophane multitudes vngodly of the land were receiued into are retayned in their Church as members thereof Therefore the Church of England in this estate cannot be sayd the true established Church of Christ You doo here conclude a new question for there may bee a true Church of Christ and yet not in all things rightly or truly established Agayne there be foure terminie in this your Sylogisme because this clause all the prophane vngodly is taken more largely in the maior then it is in the minor or else your maior is false also the scriptures which you quote falsely applied It is certain that God did separate his Church from the Heathen Nations that did not call vpon his name Such were not compelled to enter But if you looke vpon the Church of Israel the Nation of the Iewes which had the couenant when they fell into Idolatry and horrible impietyes you shall see that all the godly Kings of Iuda that reformed and restored the true worship of God compelled all to the same Doo you reade that the Idolaters or their seede which still after a sorte professed the God of Abraham and had the seale of the couenant vpon them were cast foorth You may sée in the Prophet Sophonie that in the dayes of the godly King Iosias many of those Idolaters did turne but feynedly for feare of punishment and secretly worshipped Idoles The nation of England did professe Iesus Christ and were all sealed with the seale of the couenant but yet ouerwhelmed generally in Idolatry and many horrible sinnes Our Noble Quéene Elizabeth placed by God vpon the Regall throne compelleth them all being her subiects according to their vow in Baptisme to renounce Idolatry and to imbrace the holy fayth and Religion of Christ appoynting sharpe penaltyes for such as shall obstinately persist either in Idolatrie or other horrible sinnes Now tell me Master Barrow what doth she herein other then the godly kings of Iuda did She receiueth not in nor compelleth Turkes Iewes or heathen but onely such as are Christians by profession And therefore you may see that if you will haue your maior proposition agree with the Scriptures it must needes be taken more largely than your minor And thus you are come forth into the field with your choyce weapon which deceiuethye vtterly But yet here to make some face of true zeale you reckon vp a number of horrible sinnes Indeede God requireth that al his seruants should vtterly abhorre and condemne such vices and speak against them but he alloweth not any to take occasion thereby to condemne his Church Such vices abound but yet there are many thousands which cannot â—e charged with any one foule vice whose conuersation in the profession of the true fayth is hath been with much more sobrietie and modesty then yours Master Barrow vnlesse your time past haue beene better spent then the present And when God shall open your eyes his terror shall be vponye ye shall know that I haue not by the deuill blasphemed yee but shewed by Gods worde that you haue with horrible presumption and intrusion into Gods iudgement seate and with most sauage crueltie sought to rend vp and to teare the Lordes tender plants In the next place commeth the Baptizing the Children of prophane men which professe Christ and remaine in the Church Here Master Barrow you are in a wonderfull displeasure and can not satisfie your selfe with all the varietie of odious tearmes which you doe euen fome out The heresie which I haue vttered about this matter is so foule as you take it that after many extreame wordes you say you may by the direct warrant of Gods word hold me and mine ordinary most heynous falsefiers and corrupters of the whole law and worde of God most blasphemous and peruitions false Prophets A man would thinke at the reading of these words that the whole Church were on fire especially if I should repeate but the one halfe of your speeches but that we know Master Barrow it is but your fashion If it please God he may giue you some spark of modestie But touching the matter it selfe I did affirme that the children of prophane men which remayn in the Church professing Christ whether they bee close hypoerites or openly wicked in conuersation do belong to the couenannt are to be baptized so that the Church take care for their instruction and education in the true fayth Your cauills here about verball confession which God alone can iudge about parish assemblies which are members of a Church though euery one by it selfe seuerally hath not the full power and so to becalled a Church about expresse contrariety error and sacriledge in my proposition as you say are not worth the mention Touching the Scriptures which I alleage to prooue that the interest in the couenant doth not depend vpon the syncere fayth or godlines of the next parents youcrie out of so many errors mischines and blasphemies that you doubt not as you say to pronounce and reiect these doctrines of this false Prophet most blasphemous and deuilish But now if it be true which I say and proue agaynst whom haue you powred foorth your poyson And what bring
by true repentance Thus farre be your wordes Master Barrow Alas poore creatures how much is your siely blindnes to bee pitied that can set down things so directly contrary at the same instant yet espieit not for you say that Circumcision in their Apostasie was no true Sacrament vnto them neither sealed the Lordes couenant vnto them in that estate And yet you say it was true Circumcision concerning the outward cutting Likewise you say that Baptisme in the poperie cannot bee saide a true Sacrament or seale of Gods couenant vnto them And yet concerning the outward washing ye confesse it true Baptisme Is not this all one as if a man should say it is the true sacrament and seale of Gods couenant it is no true Sacrament nor seale of Gods couenant I pray you M. Barrow is not the outward washing the whole Baptisme and the whole seale of Gods couenant Was not the outward cutting the whole circumcision and the whole seale of Gods couenant And if the outward washing be the whole Sacrament and the whole seale of Gods couenant as indeede with the word it is for the inward grace is no part of the Sacrament but we may say that this inward grace is the thing represented and sealed by the Sacrament Then when you say concerning the outward washing it is true Baptisme doo you not affirme the whole Sacrament and so the whole seale of Gods couenant to be true But you say it is no true seale vnto them in their Apostasie or it doth not seale Gods Couenant vnto them in that estate but when the abuse thereof is purged away by true repentance What absurde speeches be these can a man deuife more grosse folly the outward true Sacrament is the true seale of Gods couenant euen vnto those which be hypocrites and vtterly voyde of fayth which haue it For if we shall say it is no true Sacrament or no seale of Gods couenant or that it doth not seale Gods couenant but vnto those which haue the inward grace the efficacie and fruite thereof then was it sometimes no true Sacrament which the Apostles themselues did administer because there were some vnto whome they did administer both the holy Baptisme and the Lords Supper which had not the inward grace And if the Sacraments be not the true seales of Gods Couenant euen vnto those which haue no fruite thereby how should the receiuers which are vtterly vnworthie be guiltie of the body and blood of our Lord Also when a man doth receiue Baptisme which is alwayes the seale of Gods couenant and is voyde of fayth and receiueth it at their handes which doo mixe it with sundry additions and corruptions and after commeth vnto true faith he himselfe is purged by his fayth and hath the vse of that seale which hee had before but without fruite we cannot say as you doo but with most wicked and foule absurditie that the Sacrament it selfe was a false Sacrament and now through sayth is purged and became a true Sacrament That which is the Lordes doth stand in it selfe pure and vndeâ—iled euen when corruptions bee added The Wheat in it self is as pure lying among the Chaffe as when it is purged from the Chaffe The golde and siluer in themselues be as pure when the rust is vpon them as when it is scowred off If a thing in the mixture of corruptions haue not a true being ye cannot by purging bring it to haue a true being And when you say that concerning the outward washing it is true Baptisme ministred in popery which is as much as I haue shewed as to say it is a true sacrament concerning the whole because the outward washing is the whole and therefore all that Iohn the Baptist taketh to himselfe is this I baptize ye with water Doo you not acknowledge a ministrie in popery Will you say it is concerning the outward washing true Baptisme by whomesoeuer it bee done Nay you say where there is no true ministrie there is no true Sacrament Then where there is no part of a true ministrie there is no part of a true Sacrament In your other booke Master Barrow which you tearme a briefe discouerie of the false Church from the 102. page vnto 121. you make a large discourse about this point taking vppon you to bee a stickeler betwéene Master Doctor Some and the Scholler of Oxenford writing against him in defence of Master Penrie There you lay about you with your woodknife vpon both parties Master Doctor Some holding the Baptisme administred in the popery to be true Baptisme alleaging that Master Caluine held so as in déede all the Churches and all the most excellent and worthy lights which God hath raised vp in these last times doo hold the same with sound reasons from the Scripture you scoffingly tearme him a great Clarke and say that in certaine marginal notes added to his booke this inconuenience was moued vnto his further consideration how hee would auoyde the blowe of flat Schisme Also you say he was friendly aduised to spare this deepe diuinitie deriued from Master Caluine and others of this time leaft hâ—e should open such a gappe to the Papistes as neither the Church of England nor Geneua nor any other that hold this opinion shall euer be able to shut for if it be true Baptisme deliuered in the Church of Rome then will it follow that the Popish priests be true ministers And then may the seale of the couenant be giuen to open Idolaters then dooth Gods couenant of peace belong to the babilonish harlot then hath Christ many bodies or else cannot three so diuers Churches as the Church of Rome the Church of England the Church of Geneua all or any two of them I will not say any one bee true Churches TheÌ„ he may be an husband where his wiues rule Infinit other absurdities would then proue lawful And let me adde yet this vnto the rest if the Baptisme of the Church of Rome be a true Sacrament then haue they one true Sacrament and another false Thus you wound the one party that is Master Doctor Some Then touching the Scholler of Oxenford hée is blamed for that he alleageth for his patron Master Doctor Fulke to proue that the Baptisme administred in popery is no true Baptisme And he is set to counteruaile Master Caluin as his equall in all learning Grieuous absurdities you shew in déede which must néeds follow from the opinion of the foresaid Scholler Touching the comparison betwéene Master Fulke and Master Caluine for my part I am not so learned as that I can bring a full measure to measure them iustly withall I know not what might slip from Doctor Fulke in any part of his writings vpon some occasion which may séeme as though he fauored that opinioÌ„ but this I know that sundry times crauing his iudgement in that matter he held it to be true Baptisme which hath béen administred in the popery And what a thing is this Master Barrow that
when you haue a long time taken on you yéeld the whole matter vnto Master Doctor Some For what hath he said more then that it was and is true Baptisme touching the outward washing Doth he euer say that all which had the true sâ—ale had also the inward grace And for warding the blow of flat schisme it is a very weake blow The Romish Antichrist vsurped an vniust power and tyrannie and brought in many most wicked abominations cannot the Churches cast him foorth with his inuentious but they commit Schisme Can any thing be more friuolous Are all seuerall kingdomes tied vnto Rome or shall we be tied to ioyne where there be some remnants of a Church with Idolatrie And concerning the rest your self do in effect now confesse that some part of Christs ministry remaineth in the popery when you say that their Baptisme concerning the outward washing is true Baptisme And moreouer what should be we dispute not but this proueth that the true seale of Gods couenant is giuen to open Idolaters For the seale is the same in it selfe but the Idolater hath not the fruite of it vntill he come to true faith And so your next absurdities fall off themselues séeing the hauing of the true seale that is the outward washing in Baptisme dooth not make the papists true Christians nor proue that Gods couenant of peace and loue dooth belong to the Romish harlot so many among them as come to true faith receiue that vse of the seale All this I say dooth follow vpon your owne confession who build with the one hand and breake down with the other But it passeth all the rest that then Christ must néeds haue diuers seuerall bodies or else he cannot stand an head to thrée so diuers Churches as the Church of Rome the Church of England and the Church of Geneua Why Master Barrow you wil not deny but that to the elect in the Church of Rome Christ is the head And this is further to be noted that when we speak of a visible Church we speake not of men alone but of Gods ordinances And so touching the holy Sacrament of Baptisme in the Church of Rome and so much of the truth as remaineth Christ is the Author of them and so standeth the head of his own he is not the head of the Apostasie or to the wicked inuentions So then in all Churches Christ is the Author and head of that which is his ordinance and of those which belong vnto him What blasphemies are then hereby allowed And if the Papists haue quite ouerthown the one Sacrament by turning it from a Sacrament into a Sacrifice propitiatory what reason is it therefore to say Baptisme is ouerthrowne We must yet a little further deale about the Church of Rome because you make all our people to be but as heathen without the couenant and not rightly entred to become a visible Church but all receiued in at the sound of her Maiesties trumpet I say our people stood vnder the couenant before as a part of the visible Church and that our soueraigne Quéene did not compell those which before were not vnder the couenaÌ„t to become the church but by her regall power giuen vnto her of God banished the vsurped power of Antichrist abolished Idolatry and compelled her people hauing receaued the seale of the couenant and professing Christ to receiue also the true doctrine This was not to begin a Church but to reforme a Church hereupon it falleth out in question whether the Church of Rome were the visible Church of Christ in time of Idolatry It is vsually said that the Church is in the papacy but the papacy is not the Church I said we may rather say to speake more plainely the papacy was in the Church because Antichrist who brought in all the papacy erected his throne in the Church You begin with this Master Barrow and say that I hold it not enough to affirme with the learned deuines that the inuisible Church of God is in the papacy as in all other places of the world because God hath his elect there and in all other places but to be singular I haue inuerted the proposition and say that the papacy is in the Church O Master Barrow it is your bold ignorance as in all other matters Who be those learned diuines that when they say the Church is in the papacy but the papacy is not the Church doo meane no more but that there be Gods Elect as in other places of the world If you haue any modesty bring forth some one learned deuine which is of that iudgement I did like rather to say the papacy is in the Church then to say the Church is in the papacie because I sée diuers doo mistake it as though it were onely meant that in the papacy there are Gods Elect and no further that is no outward visible Church in any respect I doo not differ any iot in the spéech from the sense which Master Caluine and others doo giue for when I say the papacy is in the church but the papacy is not the church by the papacy we must néeds vnderstand that vsurped tyranny of the Pope and his Clergy with all their abominable inuentions By the Church we may not vnderstand only Gods Elect but also so much of Gods ordinances as remaine not only in the points of doctrine and publike profession of the name of Christ but also in the holy Baptisme the seale of the couenant which all haue and may so farre be called the visible Church That the papacy should inuade the visible Church remaine in it and not vtterly or quite destroy it I did alleage that Saint Paule saith Antichrist should sit in Gods Temple Now let vs see whether this bée not the meaning of the most learned diuines when they say the Church is in the papacy Master Caluine handleth this point in the fourth booke of his Institutions Chap. 2. section 11. 12. Which booke though it be in our language yet is it little read and studied of our people as the weakenes and readines of many to be seduced by hereticks and Schismaticks dooth euidently declare I will set downe his words for such as haue not the booke But yet as of old time saith Master Caluine among the Iewes there remained certaine peculiar prerogatiues of the Church so doo wee not at this day take from the papists those steppes of the Church which God would haue to remaine among them notwithstanding the dissipation God had once made his couenant with those Iewes that same couenant did continue vpholden by the stablenes of it selfe as it were wrastling against their impietie rather then kept of them Such therefore is the certainty and constancy of Gods goodnes that there remained the couenant of the Lord neither could his faith giuen be made voyde by their vnfaithfulnes neither could circumcision be so prophaned by their impure hands but that it was still the true signe and Sacrament of his couenant Whereupon
the visible Church This matter Master Barrow hath beene as throughly pursued by the Papists as euer you or any Donatist shall be able and such answere they haue receiued from the Churches that haue made separation from them as that they haue no cause to glory The ten Tribes remayned still in some sorte the visible Church and vnder the Couenant as I haue prooued before but yet they were not such a true Church as men might ioyne withall in their worship and therefore when Ieroboam had set vp the golden Calues the Leuites departed from them and went to Ierusalem 2. Chron 11. 23. 14. Then you come to expound how this may bee taken that Antichrist shal sit in the Temple of God And first as you take it his sitting in the Temple of God may be vnderstood as in regarde that he tooke his originall before he was reuealed Let any simple man looke vpon the wordes of Saint Paul and see whether he speake of any such close sitting Then that he should sit where sometimes the true Churches haue beene which hee should so destroy and waste as there should be no shape or steps of any of them left vpon the earth as it was foretolde Matth. 24 29. Reuel 6. 14. See what two places Master Barrow hath found to proue Antichrist should vtterly destroy the visible Church These be the wordes And immediately after the oppression of those dayes the Sunne shall be darkned the Moone shall not giue her light and the starres shall fall from heauen and the powers of heauen shall be shaken This is spoken of Christs comming to iudgment and is meant indeed of the Sunne the Moone and stars themselues and therefore most foolishly concluded that Antichrist shall vtterly destroy the visible Church And for the place in the Reuelation The heauen departed away as a booke that is roled vp you may euen as well conclude that the whole Church in the world vtterly fayled as to say therefore Antichrist vtterly defaced the visible Church And if you will haue the matter tried by so darke a place your light had neede to be great But your pretiest reasons of all are yet behinde Antichrist shall be lifted vp aboue all that is called God this can not be done by any Minister in the Church seeing euery soule must bee subiect They say it will weary an old bodie to followe a Child vp and down all day that can newe goe I am sure it will weary any man to follow you Master Barrow in all your trifles God commandeth euery soule shall submit it selfe vnto the higher powers doth it here vpon follow that if a king vsurp that which belongeth to God they must therein â—â—ay him so long as he remayneth their king Also when it is sayd that he is God you say what blasphemie will not insue if this should be literally taken It may as well be inforced say you by this place that Antichrist is God as that the place where he raigneth is the Temple of God You will not haue this place expounded literally and then what shall we make of it or howe shall we finde Antichrist May he not be the Turke or some other If the Papists could proue yâ— which you speake but with some little shew how much would they glory For grant theÌ„ a mysticall sense of these words and they will carie it whither they list To exalt himselfe aboue all that is called God is literally spoken and literally fulfilled when the Pope exalteth himselfe aboue all Kinges and Emperours which are called Gods So that he shall sit as God in the Temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God What blasphemie is it which will ensue if these wordes bee all construed literally after the Grammaticall sense The wordes doo not import that he shall bee God indeede but that he shall take that to himselfe which belongeth to the most high God The thing which deceiueth you Master Barrow is in the word shewing for euery thing that a shew is made of is not so in truth There is a true shew and there is a false shew when one doth arrogate that to himselfe and bâ—ast of it which belongeth not vnto him As Antichrist vsurping not onely an earthly dignitie but euen the high power and authority of God is therefore sayd to shewe himselfe to bée God And now wheras I stand vpon this that the Church of England was a true Church of God before popery and that in popery it stood a member or part of the vniuersall visible Church fo farre as the remnants of Christs Church remained not vtterly defaced by Antichrist that the casting out of Antichrist and his lawes and vsurped power is not the beginning but the restoring and repayring or recouering a Church from miserable desolation And as Iosias and other godly kings of Iuda by terrour of punishment draue Idolaters which outwardly stood vnder the Couenant being cyrcumcised from false worship vnto the lawes of God so Quéene Elizabeth hath done with her subiects being baptized and thereby bound to renounce false worship and to imbrace the holy doctrine of the Couenant Here you say that to make my conclusion follow I must proue and make euident demonstration by Scripture that the Church of England was rightly gathered vnto and established in that holy fayth and order which Christ hath left vnto his Church in vniuersall and particular according to the rules and examples in his Testament Next that they fell not away froÌ„ this holy fayth in the time of popery and that now they continue and faythfully walke in the same fayth and order If I had done this you say I had powerfully conuinced and stopped the mouthes of all Schismatikes for euer I sée you can make your mach wisely Master Barrow I must make euident demonstration by the Scriptures of what of that which was not mentioned by the Scriptures For there is no particular mention of planting the fayth of Christ in England If wee shew it out of auncient records then doe I not saâ—ilfie your desire at all Agayne it must be shewed by the Scriptures that the Church of England receiued orderly the fayth and order of Christ not onely in generall but in euery particular This is a surer knot than the former And me thinkes you should bee a little more kinde for the honour of your countrey not that any honour is to be rendred against truth but whereas you confesse that a true Church may erre in diuers things so that it be not conuinced sinne obstinately If the planters of the fayth and discipline of Christ in England did erre it some things which yet you know not how can you tell but that they did it in simplicitie wee sée that in auncient times and of late dayes GOD hath had many Children in England which haue been begotten and nourished vp in the land and haue acknowledged her their mother And we are sure herevpon that God hath put his couenant of mercy
shall exercise any part of it in the Church The Bishops of the church of England and they that maintaine the government by presbyteries doo both alike condemne that challenge of the Pope as an vsurpation Both parts affirming that although our Sauiour doo speake onely to Peter saying to thee I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen yet he giueth him nothing but that which he gaue vnto the other Apostles This they prooue by Ioh. 20. where he breathed vpon them and sayd ioyntly to them all As the father sent me so I send you and whose sinnes ye shall forgiue they are forgiuen c. With what face can you say then Master Barrow that the Bishops and the Pope depend vpon one line and build their preheminence vpon that promise made vnto Peter You might truelier haue sayd that the Bishops and presbyteries depend vppon one line for their preheminence not only for that they expound those places Math. 16. and Ioh. 20. alike but also that the Bishops challenge none other power then the presbyteries do For the controuersie betweene the Bishops and the presbyteries is whether of them by Gods word for the benefit of the Church are to exercise that power which Christ hath left vnto her The one side doth affirme that by Gods word the execution of this her power doth belong to the Bishops as being most properly the Apostles successors and therefore do hold that the Church of England hath done right in reseruing this power vnto them The Churches which hold the other gouernment do affirme that when our Sauiour saith tell the Church it is not meant tell the Bishop or those which are ioyned with them but tell the Church is tell the Consistorie which consisteth of Pastors Teachers and Elders chosen from among the people This Consistorie say they is to haue and to exercise that power and iurisdiction which the Bishops do hold Now Master Barrow as you say the gouernment thus by the Bishops is popish so you grieuously condemne the Consistorie affirming that it is irregular that it hath no ground or warrant in Gods word but vtterly subuerteth all order and openeth a wide gap vnto all licentiousnes c. Then come the fourth sort which expound these words tell the church wrong And those are they which say tel the church is tell the congregation of people without the Elders Here you shew some skill also to confute which is but to fight with your owne shadow for this fourth sort I thinke haue neuer been heard of but among your selues And in déede your heauenly patterne whatsoeuer ye speake of pastors teachers and Elders is nothing else but an heape of people without any of these officers For was it euer heard of among men that there bee offices in which there is no power or authority at all annexed vnto the officers which execute them not euen in the things wherein their offices consist aboue those which haue not the same offices For if it be true which you say that the greatest minister hath no more power to bind or loose the sinnes of the least member then the said member hath to bind or loose his Or if Christ speake to all euen to the wemen Iohn 20. whose sinnes ye forgiue they are forgiuen c. If the word haue no more efficacie to worke faith deliuered by the ministrie or the Sacrament to seale the promises haue no more power deliuered by a minister then when the same word is vttered and those Sacraments deliuered by any man or by any woman or if euery young man yea euery maide which is of the assembly haue equall power with any to excommunicate we would see wherein the power of any of your officers consisteth where all or euery one haue equall power there all are officers where all are officers we may say that in déed none are publick officers This is Master Barrowes heauenly patterne by which he hath conuinced all our Churches and found them so obstinate for reiecting it that they be quite separate from Christ Master Barrow will say he spake not of the Sacraments for he faith a minister onely is to deliuer them And I say one part of the power of loosing is by the Sacraments in as much as they seale our faith The power of discipline exercised by the presbytory as it is in the Churches of France Scotland Geneua the Low Countries c. you most grieuously condemne the reader shall see your own words in your other booke page 189. and 190. thus you speake These men in stead of this grosse Antichristian gouernement c. would bring in a new adulterate forged gouernement in shew or rather in despite of Christs blessed gouernement which they in their pride rashnes ignorance and ensualitie of their fleshly hearts most miserably iunouate corrupt and peruert c. Also page 166. you tearme Classical and Prouinciall synods and counsels a diuelish forgery Here you say the fault and pride of the Elders is intollerable Also you say that many were the reasons and more the inconueniences that might bee alleaged against this presumptuous irregular consistorie which hath no ground in the word of God but vtterly subuerteth destroyeth and corrupteth the whole order and Communion of the Churches openeth a wide gap vnto all licenciousnes and prophannes of manners c. Thus the Church of England is no Church of Christ because of their gouernement by Bishops In other places where the gouernement is by presbytreies not onely the people by your sentence are prophane multitudes but their ministers proud rash ignorant and in the sensuality of their fleshly hearts haue corrupted Christes gouernement in despite thereof haue set vp a diuelish forgery and open the gap vnto all prophanenesse c. O Master Barrow what reproaches are these against all churches and their ministers I must néeds tell you againe that there is not any which hath any sparke of Christian modesty but will say God hath not sent ye your sufferings are not to be gloried in you are but Rabasaka that thus reproach the church of Christ What Schismaticks haue gone beyond ye Now followeth the suspension from the Sacraments You must vnderstand that al your friuolous cauils about this and all your reproaches reach not alone vnto the Church of England but vnto all the reâ—ormed Churches which practise a suspention Master Beza in his booke against Erastus page 10. sheweth the vse and practise of it not onely in their Church but in the auncient Churches Also page 124. he proueth it by the example of Moses sister and of those which were restrained a whole month from eating the passeouer these ceased not in the meane time to be accounted members of the congregation When the repentance is not throughly testified or the rest stand in néed of some terror as wel as the party that hath offended then is there vse of suspention To proue that neither the worship of God nor yet the godly are polluted by the
themselues to the Priests Luk. 17. 14. which were also to offer according to the law And this was not long before he suffered You do very fondly imagine the if the Priests the Scribes and Pharisies and Saduces and the multitude which claue vnto them were the visible Church then were there two Churches vnles we will denie that our Sauiour his Disciples were the Church For at y◠time they were all in the same visible Church euen those open wicked and the good Our Sauiour doth reprehend them and layeth open their wickednes to the end that men might beware and not be seduced and kept from truth by them But why are they not cast forth The Prophets in olde time did sharply reprehend the wicked of all sorts in the Church but they had not the ordinary power to execute the censure of excommunication no more had our Sauiour himselfe There be diuers testimonies and examples of the holy scriptures which I alledged to proue this thing which you knitte vp short but in your other booke you deale in them at large And because Master Caluine hath written strongly and plentifully in these matters against the Annabaptists and such as most wickedly did condemne the Churches in his time you take vpon you to confute him as if he were the author of these things and you tearme vs his wretched disciples Whereas in very déede M. Caluine followeth but the steps of the auncient writers Augustine and the rest agaynst the Catharists and Donatists And you lighting into their Tents set very freshly vpon the worke euen as a chiefe Captayne to repayre and fortifie the ruines of that auncient Catharisme and Donatisme and yet can bring nothing which they brought not Touching the reformation by Princes which compell their subiects that professe Christ and haue the seale of the couenant to forsake Idolatrie and to imbrace the holy word and Sacraments I haue spoken before and therefore I come to the 17. page of your booke where you write after this sort The next shiftes these Balaamities haue for the aministring vnto and Communicating with and retaining the prophane in the bosome of their church are certaine arguments drawne by Master Caluine from Matth. 13. against the Annabaptists comparing the church to a corne field where the good seed and the bad grow together to a net and in Matth. 3. To a floar where the corne and the chaffelye together In deed Master Barrow these were speciall places which the auncient Fathers stood vpon against the Donatists and Master Caluine against the Annabaptists and which we in as great right vrge against you and your sect If we bee Balaamites then what was Master Caluine what was Augustine and all the rest Against whome haue you powred foorth your railings Take héede it be not against our Lord Iesus himselfe being against his expresse word for let vs sée how you can auoyde these places Touching the parable of the séed you oppose as you say against Master Caluine and his Disciples first the interpretation of our Sauiour himselfe who saith not that the field is the Church but the field is the world And so the good séed and the bad are together in the world but not in the Church And then you shew an absurditie of flat contradiction of the holy Scriptures which would follow if we take it that the good séed and the bad should grow together in the Church The contradiction is this there is power and commaundement giuen to the Church to cast forth the open wicked and here he bids let them alone Therefore this let them alone let them grow together vntil the haruest must néeds be expounded let them alone and let them grow together in the world but not in the Church In déed your exposition Master Barrow is the very same which the Donatists made and obstinately stoode vpon The field is the world our Sauiour hath said it the truth hath saide it accursed be he that shal gainesay it but to gather from hence that the good séed and the bad shal not be together in the church but in the world is directly to ouerthrow the whole parable For first what is it which is resembled or likened The words are plaine it is the Kingdome of Heauen The Kingdome of Heauen saith he is like c. What is it which is here called the Kingdome of Heauen is the world so called Who dare say so It is the Church in which there is the Gospell of the Kingdome and in which Christ dooth raigne If our Sauiour had ment to sec forth and to resemble the state of the world by the good séed and the bad mingled together as he saith the enemy did sow the tares ana mes◠tou sitou in the middest or among the wheate and that they grew vp together or to say looke how in a field good séede and bad grow together so in the world good men and bad it could not then be saide the Kingdome of Heauen is like but the state of the world is like Was it euer heard of that a man would expound a parable that is a similitude and exclude that which is resembled by the similitude For if the good séed and the bad sowen and growing together in the field do not resemble and set forth the state of the visible church while it is also in the field that is to say in this world mingled of good and bad men shew what there is in the whole parable whereunto the Kingdome of Heauen is likened Moreouer in the exposition of the parable our Sauiour saith as the tares are gathered and burned so shall it be in the end of this world the sonne of man shall send his Angels which shall gather out of his Kingdome all offences and those which worke iniquitie c. If they shall be gathered out of his Kingdome which is his Church peculiarly so called though he be Lord of Heauen and earth then are they vntill the end of the world in his Church I doubt not Master Barrow but that simple men yea poore Children looking vpon this parable and considering what it is likened and how Christ dooth expound it shall bée able to sée what a spirit of giddines God hath in iudgement cast vpon yée for the loftines of your mindes And now for that absurdity of flat cóntradiction in the Scriptures which you imagine if wee expound it that the good and the bad shall bee mingled in the church so long as it is in the field There is no such thing as I will shew by as great an absurdity which will follow of that sense which you giue for speaking of the wicked in the Church if he should say let them alone it would ouerthrow the censures Ecclesiasticall which are expressely commaunded then speaking of the wicked in the world and saying let them alone let them grow together least ye pluck vp the wheat it should ouerthrow the power of Kings and rulers in putting euil dooers to
then in your second accusation your grounds and reasons are flat Donatisme that in your blind furie you condemne all Churches both of auncient time and in these dayes most deepely reuiling and rayling at all the most excellent instruments which God hath raised vp vnto his Church what remayneth but to warne simple men to take heed they bee not seduced by you Thus much for the second now to the third accusation The third accusation is that we haue a false Antichristian ministrie imposed c. IN your former writings where ye came to deale about our ministrie ye were in a great displeasure hauing made so great a chalenge for that I did intercept this busines frō the hands of the learned vnto whome ye say it did by many rights more neerely appertayne then vnto me I made answere to this that in very deede it is no reason that such as you should be encountred by men of great learning because in all your dooings yee are so full of false accusations so rash so presumptuously bold in powring foorth without any discretion whatsoeuer lighteth into your brayn ye are so miserably ignorant so full of foule errors being altogether vnlearned this onely excepted that yee haue scraped some things out of other mens writings which yet ye peruert that all wise men both of learned and vnlearned doo playnely see it is but mad frensie by which yee are led For let the things which I haue noted out of these your last bookes witnesse vnto all I will not say the learned for what should they spend time about them but to all the Artificers and husbandmen which haue any sound knowledge whether I haue in this charged ye with more then is true Ye would beare the Reader in hand that the learned men doo abstayne from dealing with ye because they know our cause is bad and that it is better therefore it should be raked vp then appeare the worse by the handling Ye sayd moreouer that if I haue consulted with my learned Brethren they would haue giuen me counsell not to write but to deale in the pulpit where it may bee without controulment least the fowlenes of things should appeare To one part of this I made answere that whereas yee doo imagine that all the learned are afrayd ye would be too hard for them if they should deale with yee and therefore they doo not nor dare not meddle it is nothing so But as one among the beasts ye know of whome it is sayd had gotten a Lyons skinne vpon him and went about and frayed all the simpler beasts vntill one more subtill whether he espied the long eares or whether he heard him bray which is nothing like the roaring of a Lion made answere that otherwise indeede hee should haue béene scared as well as the rest For you comming with a most terrible outcrie against our Church ye wil néeds haue vs think the Lion roareth Let not the Reader suppose that I speake this vpon mine owne conceipt for in the fourth page of the Epistle of your other booke which ye call A briefe discouery of the false Church ye haue set it downe so your selues Ye would not haue those dreadfull things which ye denounce lesse feared because they are pronounced by a frayle man but would haue vs all know that the Lyon roareth and that the Lyon roareth not in the Forrest if no pray be present Doubtles your voyce hath beene terrible and especially at the first you scared many of the simpler sorte which tooke it to bee the roaring of a Lyon But ye must vnderstand that the learned euen at the first did discerne the voyce not to be the roaring of a Lion but the braying of him that put on the Lyons skinne Therfore ye are much deceiued in thinking they all feare and tremble at it They see playnely that it is but mad frensie and so they disdayne to deale with it And for mine owne parte if I did not see what hauock the Donatists made how many the Annabaptists seduced and how weake much of our people are I should count it great folly to giue you anie answere And now whereas I did require if there bee any spark of modestie left in ye to make some colourable shew that the learned would councell not to deale in these matters which they knowe can not bee defended but by the discussing will become more odious thus ye make answere That these preachers had taken this course say you among themselues we know certaynely by a letter that two of the chiefe of them sent vnto vs denying that conference which they had before promised because we denyed their Church and ministrie After that two of them being procured to our prison denied to deale with vs concerning those exceptions we made agaynst their church and ministrie alleadging that they were forbidden by their brethren to deale with vs in those matters To be short what else can with any probabilitie be coniectured to bee the hindrance of the first company of preachers that at the first sent vnto vs to know the causes of our dislike promising to assent or to shew vnto vs the causes why they could not that they vpon the sight of that little paper wherein we set downe vnto them the causes of our separation from these parish assemblies as also what we purposed in our owne assemblies neuer as yet could be drawne to make any answere in writing or conference if not that they perceiued that they were neither able to defend their estate neither yet had fayth to leaue it for feare of persecution and danger Who can now doubt but that Master Barrow and Master Greenewood be honest simple dealing men Who can say they haue slaundred the learned or that they haue vttered any thing rashly when they now affirme that they did for certainty know that the preachers had taken such a course among themselues and alleadge such proofe for the certaintie hereof as no man néedeth to doubt of the matter For will any man bee so impudent as to lie and to publish it to those which do know he doth Iye I haue heard Master Barrow by such as haue dealt with yee that ye make no conscience of lying and nowe it falleth out so here for one of those which came to the prison comming to the fight of your booke hath set downe in the margent that ye make a most shameles lie It may be in this ye will stand vpon your Pantoffles it is but your yea and his nay But for the letter you speake of which the other two whome ye name sent vnto ye I haue talked with them both to knowe why they denied conference and what they had written They say they denied conference with ye onely because yee denied them to be Christians to pray with them and that ye denied all the preachers in the land to bee Christians and all those which ioyne with them not hoping that ye could take any fruit by their writings
the Churches doo in some things differ about the manner of calling and ordaining ministers how you or any other by this can proue all to be void would be seene Then next the ministry of the Church of England is the ministry of reconsiliation bringing no doctrine but the doctrine of the holy Scriptures Here ye cauill foolishly that although they exercise an office yet they hauing no true calling doo it but as priuate men Luther and Caluine and all the rest which haue preached the Gospell in these times ye confesse in some small measure according to that little which they did see nothing comparable to that you haue attained haue vttered the truth but yet as priuate men Here besides your wicked barking against the ministry of all Churches which God hath ratified your ignorance is to be noted in this that you doo not know that if a man enter not rightly into a publick office yet the office it selfe is not destroyed as if a King haue but vsurped the crown yet he is a King while he be deposed It is more then foolish that ye say we haue a leiturgy or prescript forme of praier therfore we bring other doctrine besides the Scriptures Thirdly the ministry of the Church of England dooth bring men to faith there being ioyned with it the effectual power and blessing of the holy Ghost c. In answering this Master Barrow yee fall into your former stincking puddle into which yée draw many a rash ignorant man I meane ye vtterly deny with the vngodly Swinckfeldians all the whole efficacy power and blessing which God hath annexed vnto the ministry of the Gospell Here is a great patch set on to help the Papists how by this also ye say they may reason to proue their ministry and Church to be such as they that separate themselues must néeds be Schismatikes Why Master Barrow do you not know that as God made a promise to his Church to the end of the world and hath giuen gifts a ministry to continue euen to the worlds end to build it for Saint Paule saith this ministry is giuen vntill we all meete together in the vnity of faith which cannot bee vntill the last day that the whole number be accomplished Ephes 4. 13. So hee hath alwaies reserued not only some ministry in the popery but also in all times some godly ministers How little help this bringeth to the Papists or all those sound points or doctrine that remained and do remaine among them to proue that the Churches which haue forsaken them are but Schismatikes or that the Churches should not cast foorth the vsurped power of Antichrist I thinke children might be made to sée and vnderstand for although they hold sundry points of the faith yet they quite subuert the holy faith And whereas the Apostleship and ministry of Saint Paule being called into question he vseth this reason vnto those which had receaued the faith and power of the holy Ghost by his ministry If I be not an Apostle vnto others yet am I vnto you I said the same is to be made the defence of the ministry of the Churches at this day vnto all such as by the publick preaching of the word and administration of the Sacraments are called vnto an assured faith and comfort in God and vnto vnfeined repentance For let all these iudge whether there be no efficacy power in the publick administratioÌ„ of the word and Sacraments more then from the mouth of any priuat person Vnto this you answer is too foule and beastly for ye say it wâ—l fit the Papists against vs and then I say it might fit the false Apostles against S. Paule For if the Papists can or may as well say though wee bee no ministers of Christ vnto other yet vnto you that féele the comfort and power of our doctrine and ioy in it we are ministers of Christ Then might the false Apostles in like manner haue risen vp against S. Paul and spoken the same vnto those which delighted to heare them Is there no difference betwéene that power of the Gospell that assurance of faith of peace and ioy in the holy Ghost and of vnfained feare of God and repentance which it worketh and that blinde zeale and comfort which hereticks and Papists haue in false doctrine and superstition Will ye confound all When ye pronounce that there is no such faith nor repentance nor ioy in the holy Ghost nor peace of conscience wrought in the hearts of any by the ministry of our Church how far aboue the clouds doth your swelling blind pride lift vp her hands Let al such as haue felt the effectual calling of God beare witnes in this matter In the fourth I alleadged that the Martyrs which suffered in the dayes of Quéene Marie were moued and brought to fayth repentance at the preaching of Master Latimer Taylor Hoper Bradford and others Your replie is that this reason standeth vpon popish and Annabaptisticall grounds For popisâ—â—â— don alleadge 〈…〉 as many martyrs his predecessors Let me then aske this question when it is confessed that they were holy martyrs died for the true faith will it not follow if the Pope could prooue that the Church of Rome had held still that holy fayth that it should bee the true Church We hold the same fayth with the holy Martyrs The motions ye say at our preachings are but the illusioÌ„s of Sathan and this is the cause that you account the reason to be Annabaptisticall God is highly to be blessed who hath so ratified the effectual power of the ministrie of his word in the hearts of many thousands both in this land and in other countries with such assurance and constancie of faith that the whole power of SathaÌ„ out of the mouthes of papists Annabaptists Schismatiks and frantick persons is not able to bring it into doubt Lastly I did aduise men to be somewhat moued with the iudgement of other Churches This you say is an old popish reason M. Barrow it is not popish at all vnto such as shall consider that the Churches with these principal instruments which God rayseth vp as lights doo discusse matters by the Scriptures men are to seeke for the truth at their handes But I must tell yee it is the trick of all ranck heretikes and schismaticks to despise the iudgement of the Churches Shall we think that a few ignorant rash men haue receiued such light from God as al the most noble instruments raysed vp haue not Thus ye haue answered no one reason which I brought but only with vaine yea more then vayne cauills The foule reproachfull speeches which yee vse to deface all the ministers of Christs Gospell both of other Churches of the Church of England are so many and that in sundry places of your bookes but specially in your Discouery from pag. 140. vnto pag. 187. that hee that will search all that is written of the Catharists the Donatists Annabaptists and sundry