this parte You aske moreouer whether the religion or faith of the Protestantes was euer taught to anie nations in steede of true Christianitie I beseeche you examine well the doctrine of the Protestants and compare it with the doctrine of Christ of the Apostles of the primitiue churche and with the religion set foorth by the godlie writers whiche wrote about the time of Constantine or shortly after And if you can proue that we doe not in al pointes agree with the religion of Christ of the apostles as it is set down in the old and new Testament Choose what translation you will or that we consent not in all thinges concerning faith and the substance of the true doctrine which the auncient fathers as appeareth in their bookes a few erroures by them mainteined onelie excepted then wee will willingly yeelde 〈◊〉 you As for example I will note a fewe capitall pointes of religion because I will not wander in generalities First we confesse with them one waye to â—e iustified and saued by which is by â—â—â— free mercies of God graunted vs by thâ— onely death passioÌ„ of Christ our onely Lord and Sauiour and that faith is the onely meanes and instrument to apprehend this our iustification and saluation That Christ is our Mediator both of redemption and intercession that we ought â—â— pray onely vnto God not to anie Saints â—â— parted and that in the name of Christ and not in the name of anie Angell or â—â—int whatsoeuer To praye for those that be aliue and not for those which bee deade That in the Lordes Supper according to his institution we doo spirituâ—â—ly by faith feed vpon the body of Christ and that Sacrament truely and faithfully receiued as the remembraunce of the â—eath and passion of Christ is a spirituall foode and sustenaunce vnto our soules and a pledge of eternall life to satisfie our consciences We say further that Christ his naturall body fleshe blood and bone is noâ— in the Sacrament vnder the fourme of breade it being onely in heauen on the right hand of God according to the articles of our faith where in body he shall remaine vntill the day of iudgement though Christ our Sauiour as he is God in his diuine nature filleth all places and is with his children powring daily the abundance of his graces vpon them Lastly we say that man hath no free will of himselfe to doo anie good thing no not anie good thought but that it is God that worketh in vs both the will and also the deede according to his good pleasure euen of his free grace If you will either giue eare to the doctrine which we do preach or peruse the bookes which wee haue and doe write you shall see that the Protestantes did neuer vary one ynch from these pointes of true religion which I haue recited But because you make mencion of a knowne catholike Church it behoueth for that an Harlot may haue the countenaunce of an honest woman to distinguish betwixt the true church of God the counterfeit Church and to shew howe they both may be discerned and knowne Wee must needes auouch with the holy spirit of God that the true Church of Christ being the congregation and companie of the faithfull dispersed ouer the face of the whole earth is discerned and knowen by the woord of God For the true Sheepe doo heare the voice of their Pastor Christ Neither is there anie other signe or marke to knowe the Church of God sauing onely the Scriptures of God which are the treasurie of all truth For the citie of the Saintes and houshold of God as the Apostle saith is builded vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the chiefe Corner stone So then that is the true Catholike Church consecrated a spirituall Temple 〈◊〉 God which is guided and ruled by the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets Therefore the Church of God is called the Spouse of Christ for that shee ought in al â—inges to harken vnto the voyce of the â—idegroome In like manner the church â— as a piller which the Lord God hath â— in the earth amongst men therein so to little his truth that all stormes and Tempests euen the gates of hell and all the fernall powers fighting against it yet shâ— they not preuaile because shee stayeth â— selfe onely vppon the woord of God aâ— thereby stayeth others and therefore a gâ—ly father saith The piller and strength â— the Church is the Gospel and the spiâ— of lyfe Likewise Saint Agustine saâ—ther be certain books of our Lord vnâ— the authoritie whereof ech part agreeth there let vs seeke for the Church therbâ— let vs examine and try our matters An in the same Chapter I will saieth hee haue you to shew me the church not bâ— the doctrines of men but by the woorâ— of God. Saint Chrisostome saith it cannot by any means be known what is the true church but only by the scriptures â–ª what the counterfeit Church is it appereth by the promisses truely euen that Church which consisteth onely in outwarde shewe challenging authoritie ouer the woord and spirit of God prescribing a rule of woorshiping of God by her owne deuise without anie warrant of the woord of GOD which deuiseth other meanes to be saued by then onely Christ which feigneth that her faith can neuer faile notwithstanding â—â—e neuer aspired vnto the true faith of Christ but hath persecuted the same keeping the sonne of righteousnesse as vnder â—â—â—ile or cloud not suffering him to shine in simple mens mindes and hartes by his holye Scriptures which are the keyes of knowledge the very power of God to saluation to as many as beleeue If we caÌ„not vnderstaÌ„d the scriptures the fault is in vs and not in them As no man may coÌ„demne the brightnes of the sonne because his eye is not able to sustaine the clearenes therof so the hardnes of the mistery which we can not sometimes coÌ„passe or perfectly vnderstand in the scriptures ought not to take away froÌ„ vs the vse of the scriptures Now â—â—â—ing you depende much vppon the aunciâ—â—â— doctors fathers I purpose for the satisfying of the reader to knit vp this diffeâ—â—â—ce betwixt the church of God and the counterfeite Synagogue of Sathan with these woords of S. Augustine Whether they haue the church or no let theÌ„ shew â— the Canonicall bookes of the holy â—riptures we must knowe the Church of â—hrist euen as we likewise know Christ â—hich is the head of the church in the caâ—nical scriptures And what can be more â—laine then that which is spoken by the Euangelist Iohn disseuering the tâ—â—â— Church from the false the true Christiaâ— from hipocrices and the faithful ministeâ— and preachers of the Gospell from faâ— prophets and counterfeit teachers in thâ— fewe woordes Hereby shall ye knoâ— the spirit of God euery spirit which câ—fesseth that Iesus Christ is come in thâ— flesh is of
sense and â—ere not able to expound and interpret his â—wn meaning Saint Paule saith That we must to not heare an Angel if he bring aâ—ie thing contrarie to the Gospell Augustine expounding these woordes saith Whether it be of Christ or of his church or of anie thing else whatsoeuer pertaining either to our life or to our faith I wil not onely say if I my self but if an Angel from heauen shal teach vs otherwise then we haue receiued in the bookes of the Lawe and the Gospel holde him accursed An other godly father saith As what Gold soeuer is without the Temple is not sanctified so euery sense and interpretation which is without the holy scripture although vnto some it seeme woonderfull yet it is not holy because it is not conteined in the sense of the Scripture Call to remembraunce I praye you how vntruely and cleane contrarie to the true meaning of the holy Ghost your Church hath interpreted the Scriptures As vpon these woordes Fiet vnum ouile et vnus Pastor your Church giueth this exposition to these woordes There shal be one folde and one shepheard we may not vnderstand it of Christ but of some other minister that ruleth in his roome One saide vnto Pope Leo in the CouÌ„cel holden at Lateran Behold the Lyon of the tribe of Iuda is come the roote of Dauid c. O most blessed Leo wee haue wayted for thee to be our Sauiour So it is likewise sayde The Pope beeing the light is come into the worlde and men haue loued the darkenesse more then light euery man that dooth euell hateth the light that is to say the Pope and commeth not to the light These woordes are to be vnderstoode of our sauiour Christ who in deede is the Lyon of the tribe of Iuda and commeth of the roote of Dauid who is the lighte that commeth into the world and see how blasphemouslie your Church doth wrest these woordes and applieth them vnto the Pope Againe Pope Sextus affirmeth That hee can neuer be forgiuen whosoeuer he be which accuseth the Pope And thus he reasoneth He that sinneth against the holy Ghost that is to say Against the Pope shall neuer be forgiuen neither in this world nor in the world to come These woordes of the Scripture are thus to bee taken That they shall neuer haue forgiuenes at Gods hands which sinne against the holy Ghost And the Pope wil haue them to be meant of him I coulde rehearse infinite places to this same effecte and purpose But let the indifferent reader iudge by these fewe places howe vntruely the church of Rome dooth interpret the holy scriptures But let them beware betimes of the heauy iudgmeÌ„ts of god Wo be vnto theÌ„ that cal good euel euel good darkenes light light darknes sower sweete and sweete sower What is this but to diminish the authoritie of the heauenly woorde of God God dooth sharpely threaten That if anie man shal adde vnto these thinges GOD shall adde vnto him those plagues that are writteÌ„ in this booke if anie man shal diminish of the wordes of the booke of this prophesie God shall take away his parte out of the booke of life out of the holy citie and from those things which are written in this boke God grauÌ„t you true repentaÌ„ce that you may imbrace Christ his worde and escape these threatnings of God. Papist 17 MOreouer let anie man prooue vnto me that the true only church of god may at anie time be voyd of a spirit of falsly interpret any senteÌ„ce of holy scripture or induce any errours among the people or approoue any vnprofitable or hurtful vsage amongst Christians or that she suffreth any daÌ„nable abuse in her religion without open reprehension thereof prooue any of these proofes And I recant Answeare 17 I Haue prooued before at large that the true Church of God is neuer without the comfort of gods spirit which spirit doeth not visibly and openly in anie forme or substance reueale and shewe him selfe but inwardly ingraffe in the hartes of the elect whether they be manie or fewe the doctrine of the Gospell doth increase true knoweledge in them doth worke true sanctificatioÌ„ holinesse and doth guide leade them in al good actions I haue proued also that gods true church doth not corrupt and falsly interpret the holy scriptures as your Church of Rome doth in wresting and wringing the sence of the scriptures in comparing it to A nose of waxe a shipmans hose or in calling it A dead and dumbe letter But the true sheepe doth gladly here the voice of the shephearde do acknowledge all thinges to be contained in the scripture necessary for mans saluation doe confesse no hardnesse or difficulty to be in the worde of God But that the holie Ghost doth sufficiently expounde himselfe and one place expresse another The true Church doth not teach the people anie errours anie vnwritten verities any inuentions of her owne braine or anie thing touching doctrine or life which shee findeth not written in the canonicall scriptures doth not approue anie vnprofitable vsages anie fond customes or suffer anie damnable abuses in religion without open reprehension dooth finde faulte and doth openlie inueigh against all thinges which be mixt with Gods true worshippe and seruice by the deuise of anie man whatsoeuer and will alowe nothing to be vsed amongst gods people but onely that which is warranted by the worde of god In this your treatise albeit you speake generallie yet you haue a special meaning But truly euen in that thing wherewith you charge vs you bee most giltie your selfe For if those be worthily called Abuses in religion which be matters of faith and vsed in the Church contrarie to the expresse worde of God so that Christ may be vmpeere lett al indifferent persons iudge whether your Church of Rome or we which professe the Gospell doe more abuse true religion and induce erours amongest the people We say that wee must pray only vnto God in the name of Christ and vnto none other your Church of Rome saith That wee must pray vnto the saints departed and vse them as meanes for vs vnto God. Neuerthelesse God saith Call vpon mee in the day of trouble I wil heare thee Dauid The Prophet saith When I was in trouble I called vpon the Lord and he heard me And againe he saith I will confesse my sinnes vnto the Lorde and so hee forgaue me the wickednesse of my sinne Christ saith Whatsoeuer you aske my Father in my name hee will giue it you Shewe me now by what aucthoritie of scripture you can disprooue this and prooue your inuocation of Saintes we say That it is god onely which forgiueth sinnes that for Christes sake whose blood doth purge vs froÌ„ al sinne You say that the Pope can forgiue sinne and giue pardon for many hundred yea thousand yeares and that he can doo
tongue of your crouching before idolles of the placing of the saide idolls in your Churches of your worshippe done vnto them of your pilgrimages of the supremacie of your holie father the Pope of your vnwritten verities and of all the rabble of your ceremonies ordinances and traditions whiche haue no warrant of Gods worde in whiche you repose saluation and by whiche you greatlie deceiue Gods people Will not the Lorde call you to an accompt for abusing and deceiuing thus his people in giuing them darnell and chaffe for wheate in feeding them with your owne inuentions without anie warrant or authoritie of Gods worde Hath not GOD set downe a platforme in his holie Scriptures howe hee wil be worshipped and serued commaunding That you shall neither adde nor diminishe turne â—either to the right hande nor to the lefte but syncerelie to walke in the wayes of the Lorde And hath threatened moreouer That if anie man shall adde vnto the things whiche bee written GOD shall adde vnto him the plagues that bee written And if anie man shall diminishe from the wordes of GOD his part shal be taken awaie out of the booke of life But either sufficient is spoken â—r inough will not serue Onelie this â—hing I require of you that you will â—ot take in ill parte whatsoeuer I â—aue written the Lorde is my witâ—esse that I haue not beene mooued herevnto either of malice or of vaine â—lorie neither haue I written or set â—owne anie doctrine but onelie that â—hich in my conscience as I shall answere at the dreadfull daye of iudgement I am perswaded to bee the verie â—ueth If you thinke that I haue not â—llie absolutely answered your Interrogations and Demaundes which you haue set downe so diffusedlie and out of order repeating some one thing often and in heaping one vppon another without anie reason or iudgement in charging vs and laying those heresies to our charge whiche wee are so farre from mainteining of them as that wee do vtterlie abhorre detest yea flatlie condemne them I would haue â—ou to note and plainlie sette downe in what thinges I haue failed or what thinges I haue omitted or in what you bee not fullie resolued and I not to haue sufficientlie aunswered you For I am most willing according to that small talent and gift whiche God hath of his goodnesse bestowed vppon mee to imploye my trauell and spende my time in this kinde of exercise Let vs ioyne together in building God his Church for that manie soules bee in daunger by reason of controuersies and contentions whiche bee betwixt vs in that they halte as they did in the time of Elias the Prophete betwixt two opinions doubting what way were best to take Let vs seeke to aduaunce Gods worshippe which is spirituall and must bee done in spirit and trueth GOD is dishonoured either when wee woorshippe anie other then him alone giuing his honor to anie other creature or when wee giue him not that honor whiche hee requireth of vs in his sacred and holie worde or woorshippe him otherwise than hee appointeth The Lord graunt you a penitent hart indue you with true and perfect knowledge that you may seeke the sauing of your owne soule the profitte of Gods â—urch and Congregation and the adâ—ncement of his kingdome that â—h one heart and one minde wee â—y worshippe and serue GOD the â—her and his Sonne Iesus Christ in â—irit and trueth To whom with the holie Spirit three persons and one inuisible and immortall God be all glorie nowe and euer Anthonie Gilbie vnto the Reader THE miserable Iewes and proud Papistes are both alike deceiued by these and such like carnal cogitatioÌ„s as appeares in these popishe questions The Iewes will 〈◊〉 haue an earthlie Messias to whom all â—â—â—s shal be in subiection corporallie viâ—â—â— or else they wil haue none The Papists will haue an earthlie church visible kingdome of the same Messias to the which al nations â—halbe subiect or else they wil haue none 〈◊〉 poore Christ and his persecuted church â—espised of both twaine The Iewes will 〈◊〉 of this poore Nazarite for their king 〈◊〉 â—apists will not haue his contemptible 〈◊〉 to be their church The Papists boast â—â—â—ir antiquitie and succession but the â—â—â—s if that wold serue haue better cause â—ast of both for their antiquitie is farre â—â—â—ter by manie huÌ„dred yeres their sucâ—â—â—on is alowed in the scriptures but the 〈◊〉 is successour in nothing saue in that â—â—â—er deâ—â—ed his maister or when as hee 〈◊〉 Christ carnall worldlie counsell not to suffer but to spare him selfe Otherwayâ— he succeedeth not Peter I say neither â— place nor in doctrine neither in forme of gâ—uernemeÌ„t nor in maner of liuing so that tâ— popish church canne in no wise bee the trâ— church of Christ as may easilie bee proueâ— The papistes talke of Fathers and of coâ—sent but what is that without the warraâ— of Gods word The papistes will not be of tâ— contemptible church they say that is despâ—sed in the world Christ saith that his churâ— must be so They shall deliuer you vp â— be afflicted and shall kill you and yoâ— shal be hated of al nations for my namâ— sake Againe he saith If the worlde haâ— you knowe that it hated mee before hated you if ye were of the worlde thâ— world would loue his own but becauâ— you are not of the world but I haue châ—sen you out of the world therefore thâ— world hateth you Remember the worâ— that I said vnto you The seruaunt is nâ— greater then his maister If they hauâ— persecuted me they will persecute yoâ— also These things haue I said vnto yoâ— that you should not bee offended Theâ— shall excommunicate you yea the timâ— will come that whosoeuer killeth youâ— I thinke that he doeth God seruice â— this is the state of the true churche here â—n earth whereby it is euident that the â—she Romishe Synagogue is not the true â—rch seeing it is so â–ª loued and honored in worlde Christ the head of the true â—rch went vp into heauen by manifolde â—ctions his members the Prophetes and â—ostles entred by the same doore of afflicâ—s not by the windowe of promotions â—d holie Paule affirmeth That whosoeâ—r will liue godlie in Christ Iesus must â—fer persecutions That our faith being â—d like golde in the furnace as Peter â—th might be found precious Thereâ—re Christ and his Apostles are poore in â—is world and like seruants readie to serue â—ers the Pope and his Prelates like worldâ—e Princes rich wealthie and lordlie Christ â—d his humble and lowlie the Pope his â—oude pompeous and haultie Christ his â—aied tribute to Caesar the Pope his take Peter pence and other payments froÌ„ Princes and nations Christ and his suffered humblie afflictions vnder Princes the Pope warreth against Princes treadeth on their neckes causeth them to kisse his pantaphles and to hold his stirrops like a Lucifer and childe of pride Christ and
prison for that he woulde not take vpon him to be supreame heade of the Churche which Hildebrande poysoned sixe Popes was a coniurer and raised vp Diuelles and threwe the Sacrament into the fire Another saith that they were many that both priuatly and openly cursed Pope Hildebrande and said that with his hatred and ambition he troubled the worlde and that vnder the colour of Christ he wrought the feates of Antichrist This was he in whose time Sathan was let loose and when your Churche of Rome might truely be called the seate and harbour of Antichrist the man of sinne which setteth himselfe against God which sitteth in mens consciences is euen that whore which Saint Iohn speaketh of Which shoulde make the nations of the earth drunken with the cuppe of her fornication and hath imbrued her handes in the bloude of Gods Saintes Surely I muste needes say if that these Potenâ—ates had bene but a litle whitled and â—ot beastly drunke they woulde neuer haue bene so deceiued by Antichriste and receiued the marke of the beast What Lorde King or Emperour woulde haue kissed the Popes foote holden his stirâ—ope serued him at the table To coÌ„clude besides their wickednes in life as many of them being coniurers adulterets namelie Siluester the seconde whoe gaue him selfe bodie and soule to the Diuell that he might be Pope and Pope Ioane the woman Pope who traueled with Childe as shee was carried on foure mens shoulders about in procession their doctrine is most damnable and repugneth in all poyntes the Gospell of Christe As one saying of Agryppa speaking of the Pope and and Churche of Rome plainely sheweth They commaunde saith he the Angelles they haue power ouer the dead they vse violence against the Scriptures to haue the fulnesse of authoritie The Pope him selfe is become intollerable There was neuer Tyrant like vnto him in pompe and pride The Legates of the Byshoppe of Rome doe so riotte in their the Pope to be Antichrist as Irenaeus a godly father sheweth Antichrist saith he being a runnegate and a theefe yet hee will be woorshipped as a God And being but a bondseruant yet he will be proclaimed and published as a King. Another saith Antichrist shall faigne him selfe to bee holy that hee may deceiue men vnder the colour of holines yea he shall call him selfe God and shal cause him self to be worshipped and shall promise the kingdome of heauen An other saith Whereas he is a damned man and no spirit he pretendeth him selfe to bee a God and whatsoeuer he dooth no man may aske him Domine cur ita facis Sir why doo you so Enter now into your owne conscience examine these sayinges vprightly looke vppon them with a single eye and theÌ„ iudge you indifferently And I trust that you will recant according to your promise Papist 8 ITEM I aske what kinde and order of seruice or common prayer what way of ministring the Sacraments your Church had before papistrie as you cal it preuailed in the worlde shewe me one booke or coppie of communion or what else you list that was in english or lacked praying for the departed or inuocation of Saintes in heauen or that wanted oblation or sacrifice or that charged a number to receiue else the Prieste could not consecrate or say Masse receiuing alone or shewe anye note in a communion booke that people should take the sacrament for plaine breade or that they should giue no honour vnto it shewe this booke or anie Church or congregation that euer had aniâ—â—utenticall seruice but ours And I recant Answeare 8 I Shal not neede to stand long in reciting what kind of seruice was vsed before papistrie began verely euen the same which our Sauiour Christ set foorth which is recorded in the foure Euangelists and in the Epistles and writings of the Apostles from which the Apostles the congregations vnto whome they had preached the Gospell departed not one iotte And so the Apostle speaking of the institution of the Lordes Supper saith That thing which I haue receiued of the Lord the same haue I deliuered vnto you As though he should say euen he which ought onely to beare authoritie in the Church hath prescribed a way and orders of celebrating his laste Supper of whiche these are the chiefe partes That the Minister shoulde shewe the Lordes death by preaching his woorde and Gospell by calling vppon the name of the Lorde in prayer in deliuering the bread wine to bee receiued with thankesgeuing that the congregation shoulde for their partes proue and try them selues touching the knowledge of GOD fayth in the mercies of God offered in Christ and true sorrowe and lamentation for their sinnes past endeuouring them selues to leade a new life to shew forth the Lords death in consenting to his woorde and institution It is manifeste that the people to the number of three thousande soules beeing of diuerse countries and nations conuerted vnto the Gospell by Peters preaching continued for so the holie Ghoste speaketh in the Apostles doctrine and felowshippe and breaking of breade and prayers This order of seruice was vsed in all congregations from time to time amongest true Christians and remayned perfect for the space of sixe hundred yeares and odde yea vntill the same was altered by your Popish Cleargie who not being contented with that whiche Chrisâ—e his Apostles and the auncient Doctoures and Fathers of the Churche had sette foorth deuised a newe way of worshipping GOD a new â—order of ministration a straunge and newe â— deuised forme of prayer and so turned all vpside downe But in defence of the truth we may boldely and truely answeare you that we holde and mainteine the same order of seruice the same ministration of Sacramentes the same prayer that the true Apostles and faithfull Christians vsed in all ages And whereas you aske for Bookes in Englishe which were written before Papistrie beganne in which there is no mencion made of praying for the deade of inuocation to saintes of priuate Masse It is plaine that there were sundrie godly bookes of Scripture whiche Dioclesian that wicked Emperour did burne in open markettes whose steppes your Churche of Rome hath followed euermore in suppressing the truth by suche meanes Notwithstanding God be thanked there bee manie volumes exstant writteÌ„ both by the auncient and godly fathers of the Church as also in the Saxon tongue in verie oldâ— English of which I haue seene one veriâ— lately found in a verie olde ruinons wall which forbiddeth prayers for the deade whiche teacheth vs onely to inuocate thâ— name of God which maketh mention oâ— no masse but of the communion in botâ— kindes and to conclude doeth aduouche iâ— all pointes the same Sacramentes thâ— same principles of religion and the same manner of worshipping God that we doe and proueth the same by the scriptures Iâ— appeareth in histories that the Bohemians made peticion vnto the councell holden aâ— Basill that
Church of God by as though Christes Church shoulde bee alwayes knowne and disceened by outwarde offices and functions I haue shewed before at large that the true church of God might be so hiddeÌ„ the tâ—ue religion so suppressed that it might in mans iudgement seeme that god had no church at al or else a very smal Church â–ª yet neuerthelesse God hath from time to time sent some Moses some Elias some Ieremie some Baruch or some one or other to represent his true Church to publish his true law gospel to waken the people from sinne that the world might thereby be without al excuse as I haue named some whiche liued in the time of ignorance which diligently preached the Gospell and reprooued the idolatries of your Church There was moreouer certaine godly preachers in Sueuia in the yeare of our Lorde 1240. which preached against the Pope affirming his authoritie to be vsurped and the doctrine of the Churche of Rome to bee corrupt Arnoldus de noua villa a Spanyarde complained that Sathan had seduced the world by your Church of Rome from the truth of Iesu Christ and said That there ought to be no sacrifice for the deade Which your Churche earnestly mainteineth At Brugis were 36. citezens of Moguntia burned for the doctrine of Christ affirming the Pope to be Antichrist Militius a Bohemian a famous and godlie Preacher inueighed against the Churche of Rome saying That Antichrist was alreadie placed Marcilius Patauius Gulielmus Ockam Iohannes Gandauensis Luitpoldus Andraeas Laudensis Aligerius Gregorius Arminensis Andraeas de castro Buridianus mainteined all the Gospell against the Popes proceedinges Dante 's an Italian writer in his booke called The canticle of Purgatory declareth the Pope to be the whore of Babylon Tauterus a Preacher of Germanie preached against mans merites and Inuocation to Saintes Franciscus Petrarcha about the same time did write an Italian meeter affirming Rome to be the whore of Babylon the schoole and mother of errour the temple of heresie the nest of al trecherie Iohannes de Rupe scissa Anno 1340. did write that Rome was Babilon and the Pope the minister of Antichriste Conradus Hager taught twentie foure yeares togeather the masse to be no sacrifice that monie taken for Masses was verie robberie and sacriledge Iohannes Mountziger Rector of the vniuersitie of Vlme disputed in open schooles against your Popishe doctrine And at the same time Nilus Byshoppe of Thessalonica preached and also wrote a booke against the Pope and the Churche of Rome whiche booke is now extant in English Truely there passed no age since Christ as it appeareth by the histories in which Christes Gospell hath not bene preached by some one or other either priuately in the times of persecution or publikely in the peaceable times and tranquilitie of the Churche when propheciyng of whiche Paule speaketh and other godlie exercises hath beene vsed But howe the true Churche may be knowen it is manifest surely euen in the Scriptures of God in whiche we learne Christ in which we may learn the church by which we may know the difference betwixte the true and false Church S. Chris saith At this time all Christians ought to flee vnto the Scriptures Because since heresies inuaded the Churche there can be no triall of true Christianitie neither can Christians which be willing to know the true faith haue anie refuge sauing the Scriptures Againe he saieth he that coueteth to knowe which is the true Church howe shall he know it but onely by the Scriptures The Church of God I meane euerie faithfull congregation in the time of peace and quietnesse doth vse preaching Christian and profitable exercises and discipline as Gods name be thanked wee haue at this day especially in all reformed Churches and we haue had since Christes ascention your Churche hath alwaies persecuted the true Churche by fire and faggotte and other exquisite tormentes If I may be so bolde I woulde aske one question of you Whether the true Churche of God did euer from the beginning persecute or that it hath bene persecuted You will I thinke confesse with me that Caine a figure of the malignant church did murder his innocent brother Abell an image of the true Churche that Ismael persecuted Isaac Esawe Iacob Saul Dauid the false Prophetes the true Prophetes the vngodlie Pharisies Christe the Messias the false Apostles the true Apostles the cruell tyrantes in the primitiue Churche the faythfull Christians and to conclude your Romishe Churche the true Churche and professoures of the Gospell And this thing was forewarned by our saâ—iour Christe That in the worlde his churche shoulde haue tribulation that the worlde shoulde reioyce and his children shoulde be sadde that if the false Churche had persecuted the Lorde it shoulde in like manner persecute the seruaunt and that they whiche shoulde persecute the Churche of God shoulde perswade themselues that they do God good seruice Saint Augustine speaking of the persecution in the primitiue Church saith They were bounde they were imprisoned they were beaten they were â—acked they were burned and yet they multiplied And Iustinus Martyr sheweth what he thought of those whiche suffered being yet an Ethnike When saith he I herd that the Christians were accused and reuiled of all men and yet sawe them goe to their death and to all manner terrible and cruell torments quietly and without feare I thought with my selfe it was not possible that suche men shoulde liue in anie wickednesse But to returne to your Churche we may say truely that you neuer had nor vsed in your Churche rightly according to the worde of GOD either preaching prophesiyng or discipline as for prophesying vsed by the Apostles and all other godlie reformed Churches your Church of Rome neuer vsed If you meane by the spirite of prophesiyng which you chalenge as of right to your church the forewarning of thinges to come which office was ceased in the Church then take heede least by your owne confession you bewraye your church to bee that Sinagogue of Sathan of which our Sauiour Christ geueth vs warning that with signes and wonders if it were possible shoulde deceiue the electe You preached very seldom not in time and out of time as Paule admonished his scholler Timothie and when you preached you preached not Christ and his death to bee the onely raunsome for our sinnes but your owne workes and meritorious deedes not Christes Gospell but your Legend of lyes and your vaine and supersticious traditions for whiche you had no warrant in Gods booke The law of God and his true worship was either altogeather abolished or else most wickedly corrupted before the times of king Iosias Helias did also renue the same beeing before his time decaied â—t seemeth in like maÌ„ner that the people of â—e Iewes were fallen from God when â—s they said vnto Ieremy The words that â—ou hast spoken vnto vs in the name of
whatsoeuer God him selfe can doo For in name you giue him no lesse prerogatiue Dominus Deus noster Papa Our Lord God the Pope We say that wee are iustified freely by Gods speciall grace and mercie offered in Christ and that faith is the instrument to apprehend this our iustification and so saith the Apostle Ye are saued by grace and that through faith not of our selues it is the gift of god not of workes least any man should reioyce And againe Abraham beleeued God and it was couÌ„ted to him for righteousnesse You say that we are iustified by our owne works yea and that we haue workes more then wee neede which you call woorkes of supererogation or superfluous woorkes We say that we must confesse our sinnes onely vnto God and so saith Dauid I will confesse euen against mine owne selfe mine vnrighteousnesse vnto the Lorde You say That wee muste confesse our sinnes to the prieste and receiue absolution at his handes And this you call Auricular confession We say that the people of God be they neuer so simple or vnlearned ought to haue the vse of the scriptures of GOD in their knowne tongue and both heare them and reade them So Christ biddeth al men To search the scriptures Dauid sayeth That they are a light to our feete Saint Paule saith That whatsoeuer thinges are written they be written for our learnin and eugery scripture sent from God is profitable to teach to instructe to reprooue and to exhort that the man of God may be perfect prepared to euery good woorke He saith further Let the woord of God dwell in you aboundantly Wherevppon Saint Hierome noteth That euen the Leye peoshoulde reade the Scriptures and teache and admonish one an other Your church saieth That the vnlearned people ought not to haue the Scriptures in their vulgar toung that they are hard and full of difficulties We say that no Images are to bee brought into the Temple of God or to bee woorshipped God hath forbidden it by expresse commaundementes â—oth the making and the woorshipping God curseth â—oth the maker thereof the toole that â—eth it and him also that worshippeth â—t Christ saith Thou shalt woorship the â—ord thy God and him onely shalt thou â—erue The Apostle saith that Idolaters â—all haue no inheritance with Christ and â—ith God. The Angell of God refuseth â— be woorshipped and saith moreouer â—oorship God. You say that images are to bee made at they oughte to bee placed in the temâ—es that they are to bee worshipped and that they are the Laie mens bookes yea and that not onely images of Saints departed but also of Christe and of GOD himselfe whiche image of God you set foorth in the similitude of an old aged man hauing a loÌ„g gray beard and a hoare head albeit God hath geuen a straighte charge to the contrarie And Christe saith that no man hath seene God at anie time but the onely begotten sonne of God. Saint Augustine saith That it is abhominable to set anie suche picture in the Churches of Christians If a man had come into anie of your Churches in times past and had vsed your images as Epiphanius a godlie writer did vse the like long sithens you woulde haue cursed him with bell booke and candell and woulde haue burned him to ashes in the ende I will repeate the wordes conteined in an Epistle which Epiphanius did write vnto the Byshoppe of Hierusalem whiche be these I founde saith he a vaile hanging at the entrie of the Churche stained and painted and hauing the Image as it were of Christe or of some Saint for whose picture it was in deede I do not remember Therefore when I sawe the image of a man to hang in the Churche of Christe contrarie to the commaundement of the Scriptures I toare it in sonder and gaue councell to the wardens of the Churche that they should winde and burie some poore bodie in it c. â— beseech you charge the Priestes of that place that they commaunde that suche â—ailes as be contrarie to our religion be â—o more hanged vp in the Churche of Christe it behoueth your reuerence to â—aue care hereof that this superstition â—nmeete for the Church of Christ and â—nmeete for the people which be committed vnto you be remoued I might â—ande long in displaying and manifesting â—he erroures superstitious trifles of your Churche of Rome not onelie in secrete â—ractises and deuises moste expressely aâ—ainst God and his truth but also euen in matters of faith and in the principles of â—rue religion how farre you disagree from Christe and his Gospell and from all â—odlie writers of auncient time But these â—ay serue for a taste sauing that I will â—peake one worde of your Popes greate â—hallenge We say that all men of what calling soeuer they bee oughte to yeeld their obedience vnto suche as are in aucthoritie Christ our Sauiour paied tribute he sayed Giue vnto Caesar that whiche is due vnto Caesar Saint Paule sayeth Let euery soule be subiect vnto the higher powers for there is no power but of GOD whosoeuer therefore resisteth the power resisteth th' ordinauÌ„ce of god Saint Chrisostome vpon these wordes saieth Although thou be an Apostle although thou be an Euangelist although thou be a Prophete or whosoeuer thou arte for this subiection doth not ouerthrowe godlinesse and he doeth not say simplie let him obey but let him be subiect And Theophilacte writing vpon the same place sayeth That the Apostle teacheth al men whether he be a priest or Monke or Apostle that he be subiect vnto Princes Your Churche doeth challenge this aucthoritie from Peter to be aboue Kinges and Emperoures which also you say Peter receiued from Christe For these be the verie words of Pope Nicholas Christ saieth he hath giuen to blessed Peter the righte as well of the â—orldly as also of the heauenly Emâ—yre Wherevpon you grounde these arâ—ments The Sonne is higher and greaâ—r then the Moone Therefore the â—ope is higher and greater then the â—mperour The soule is aboue the boâ—e therefore the pope is aboue the â—mperour Thus you take vpon you not â—elie to haue the superioritie ouer Emâ—erours but also to put them forth of their â—ates and to remoue the Empire at your â—easure And thus did Pope Adrian write â—to Frederike the Emperour My seate â—saith he is in the citie of Rome The â—mperoures seate is at Acon in Arden which is a Forest in Fraunce Whatsoâ—uer the Emperour hath hee hath it of â—s as pope Zacharias traÌ„slated the Emâ—ire from Graecia into Germany So â—ay we againe translate the same from â—e Germanes to the Greekes Behold â— is in our power to bestowe the Emâ—ire vpon whom we liste But note how â—he writinges of Saint Peter doe agree â—ith this proud popish stile Submit your â—elues saith Peter vnto all manner orâ—inaunces of man for the Lords sake Whether it be vnto
be more more discouered as in this answere to your questions wil appeare God grauÌ„t you eies to see it hearts to repent Where you demand quest 1. what church it was that coÌ„uerted the churches nations to the faith you seeme to aunswere your owne obiection for you say that that Church was Christes Apostles and a fewe mo who by their preachings and others planted Christian religion c. In the which saying you do wel agree with the Apostle Paule who saith to the Colossians That euen in his time the Gospel was fruitfull in all the worlde Nowe you know that your gorgious synagogue of Rome had not then receiued this gospel but did persecute it many yeres after So then it was the poore perseâ—â—â—ed church that brought the Gospel into Antioch into Rome or whersoeuer it was yet truelie planted vppon the earth Againe where you demaund quest â— what church hath had the custodie of the Scriptures and most safelie hath preserued them The Iewes would most easilie answere the papistes that it is their church For the Iewes haue kept them so warilie so manie aâ— were before Christes coÌ„ming that they durst not alter anie letter or title But if there seemed some cause of alteration by the order of the graÌ„mer rules as somtimes there did both in the auncient writings old printes there was acipher set downe to cause men to consider it â–ª but no man amoÌ„gst them was so bold as to aâ—â—er anie one iotte Such was Gods great prouidence towards vs that the vâ—â—â— â—mies of Christian religion should bee the â—epers preseruers of those bookes wherâ—on our christian religion is grounded so â—at we should always be able by diuine proâ—dence to confute both the Iewes and the â—istes by the same bookes which by diuine â—er haue bin preserued The Iewes more â—ely and religiously the papists through â—rupting some places for their purpose yet â—er permitted so far to corrupt the scripâ—es but that all their errours may easily be â—futed by anie of those textes that they reâ—ed Where you demaund quest 3. why beâ—e ye our church telling you this to bee â—ds word and booke and wil not credit her â—uouching it to be the true and vndoubted â—se of Gods booke The Iewe might aske â—â— and vs also this question but wee that â—ue heard Christ him selfe speake in his â—ting them in our heartes by his holy Spiâ— do answere both Iewes and papists as the â—maritanes did the woman that brought â—em the strst tidings of Christ Nowe wee â—eleeue say they not because of thy sayâ—ngs for we haue heard him our selues â—nd know that this in deed is the Christ â—nd Sauiour of the world wee beleeue â—im because of his owne word This is true faith onely to depend vpon the word of God and neither vpon the interpretation of the Iewe or Papist or any mans else further then he can manifest his sense by some manifest place of the selfe same word The 4 5. quest may easilie be aunswered by that which is alreadie written Againe where you demaund tauntinglie O Papistes where our principal pastour doth sitt in iudgement quest 6. we aunswere that he alwayes hath don so he now sitteth in the heauens doth pronounce sentence against that Antichrist of yours who doeth sit as God in the temple of God vpon earth and he will shortlie come to take a straight accompte of all inferiour pastours who are fellow elders and fellow pastours as Peter affirmeth And vppon the earth he hath made some Prophets some Apostles some Euangelistes some Pastours some Doctours or Teachers as Paule saith but no Popes no principall Pastours to put him selfe forth of that high office The which office if it had bene so necessarie vpon earth as your papistes do make it neither would Christ him selfe neither all his Apostles vtterlie haue forgotten it As for the place that you continuallie demaunde for where shall wee seeke this â—here shall we finde that Your Question â—o small purpose for our maister Christ â—e warneth that in these latter dayes â—ere should be such as should say Loe here â— Christ loe there is Christ as it were bin 〈◊〉 Christ and the grace of his spirituall â—er to a certaine place but he saith beâ—e them not The church the vineyarde of the Lorde and the true religion is neuer 〈◊〉 to place but as the people of anie place â—e growne in open contempt the Lorde 〈◊〉 taken away the Vineard of his church 〈◊〉 the euil husbandmen and giuen it to an other people that would yeelde better â—â—â—es So was the place remoued from Ierâ—â—lem which had so manie promises to â—â—â—oche to Ephesus to the Galatians Coloâ—â—ans Thessalonians and to sundrie places â—â—he earth besides wheresoeuer there 〈◊〉 fewe or manie gathered in the name of Christ Christ was among them Christ â— their principall pastour whose voyce â—e they would heare and thereby were â—wne to his sheepe So became they his â—rch and people though it were but soule one housholde or familie So became they his sheepe and he their Pastour and principall shepheard and Archpastour though in all congregations he had hâ— vndershepheard alwayes who fed the sheepâ— and fought for the lambs against the woluâ— And both these churches and pastours weâ— many times knowne to the true children â— the church when they were vnknowen â— the wicked world For the children of Goâ— who are called the children of wisedome dâ— alwayes take hold of the heauenlie wisdomâ— and haue that marke to knowe one anotheâ— and rest vpon Gods word without any respeâ— of person or place or anie earthlie thing â— the families of Noah Abraham Lot Isâ—ac Iacob c. hauing Gods woord to waâ—rant them cared not for al the world besideâ— whereas all they that depende vpon the ouâ—ward showe of place or persons haue falâ— continually from God and so from the trâ— church as both before Christ at Christs â—ming and since Christs comming it is manâ—fest in the Iewes in the Samaritans in tâ— Turkes and papistes in Agar and Ismael â— all those that chalenge authoritie by the auncientie and eldership without Gods prâ—mise Now we contrariwise depending onâ— vpon Gods word are the children of promâ— â— the manner of Isaac But as then hee â— was borne after the fleshe persecuted â—hat was borne after the spirit euen so â—ow Neuertheles what saith the scripâ— Cast out the bond woman and her â—e Our mother church Sara whiche â—th onely the worde of promise seemeth â— barren desolate and forsaken in the â— but God will not forget his promise â—efore we wil neither aske him of the â—â—or of the time nor of the meanes how â—ll performe it but knowing that hee â— begotten his church by his worde wee â— also that thereby he will nourishe it â—ultiplie it and preserue it for euer â—hall the world rage against it And â— where his worde soundeth wee must â—fâ—r his church And because the Roâ—ynagogue
hath cast away Gods holie â— worshipping images and idols and goâ—horing from God after her owne inâ—ns hath rebelled against the words â— Lord and despised the counsell of the â— high Therefore came the iust iudgeâ— of God vppon her as it did vppon the â—sh church of old Where the Lord saith your iniquities are ye solde and for â—r transgressions is your mother forsaken Againe Pleade with your â—ther pleade with her for shee is not wife neither am I her husband buâ— her take away her fornications c. I make her like a wildernesse and â— her for thirst and I wil haue no pitieâ— on her children for they are childreâ— fornication Loe this is the iudgemeâ— that Romish harlot which hath her dâ—ling in that great citie which ruleth â— the Kings of the earth who hath â— the kings of the earth drunken with cuppe of her fornication who is the â—rie mother of whoredome and of all the hominations of the earth which is druâ— with the bloud of the Saintes and with bloud of the martyrs of Christ who with tenne kings doeth fight against the Laâ— But the Lambe shall ouercome them â— they that be on his side the chosen â— faithful for he is the king of kings and Lord of lords To him be all honour and glorie for euer â— An answeare vnto the â–ª Papist which made this Offer or Challenge Papist CHrist did commit at his departing hence the testimonie of that trueth whiche he 〈◊〉 for the câ—â—uersion of all nations to the beliefe in him â—â—trâ—â— church of God which then stoode â—â—pally and almost onely in the persoâ—â— of â— Apostles and of a fewe moe that by their â—ching and others afterwarde of their â—ng the Christian religion might be planâ—â— all nations coastes and corners of the â—â— Wherefore I aske the Protestant â—t Church that was which conuerted all â—sâ— countries that nowe be Christen to the â—th of Christe and let him shewe me that â—er his Churche conuerted anie people or â—nde in the earth from Idolatrie or Gentiâ—â— or Iudaisme to the true religion of Christ or that this his faith was taught to anie nations in steede of true Christianitie or anie other Churche but the knowne Catholike Church to haue done this And I recant Answeare TRue it is that Christ did commit the preaching of the Gospell vnto the Apostles and vnto a few moe and gaue them this commaundemeÌ„t That they should go vnto all the world and preach the same Gospel vnto al nations who very painfully executed their office conuerted manie of sundrie countries to the truth Neuerthelesse suche was the rage of the wicked Emperoures Tyrantes of that time that the doctrine of the Gospel was not vniuersally receiued nor generally taught as it appeareth at large by the historie of the Acts of the Apostles as by the assembling of the Apostles in corners by their preaching in the night season in priuat houses Yet we confes that the voice of the Apostles was sounded abroad to al the world so that as Tertullian saith the Parthians the Medians the Elamites the people of Mesopotamia of Armenia c and many other nations and prouinces known vnknowen haue receiued the Gospel of Christ Saint Paule tooke comfort and reioyced in his imprisoment for that there were some euen in Neros court that beganne to geue eare to the Gospell Of the same matter writeth Eusebius that the court of Valerian the Emperour was now become the church of god so he saieth because that some of his familie beleued the truth albeit the Emperour himself was a tyrant Euen in that sense it might haue bene truelie saide that the churche of God was in king Achab his house when wicked Iezabel his wife did most of all persecute Goddes children and when Elias complained that he onelie was left aliue seeing that Obadiah gouernour of Achabs house feared God and fed an hundred Prophetes with the meate whiche came from Iezabels table But for breâ—ities sake I will answeare to youre queâ—ion which seemeth to consist on these two â—ointes First What Church it was which â—onuerted all countries that nowe be Chriâ—ten to the faith of Christe Secondarilie whether the religion or faith of the Protestantes was euer taught to anie nations in steede of true Christianitie Whosoeuer shall diligently peruse the ecclesiasticall histories or the bookes of the auncient Fathers of the churche they shall easily perceaue with what difficultie Christianitie was embraced sith that the name of Christ was so odious to the Emperour of Rome whose Empire was exceeding large thaâ— whosoeuer professed himselfe to be a Christian was tormented moste cruelly vnto death So that it cannot bee proued that manie nations or countries were wholly christened or receiued the gospel of Christ but in secrete manner vntill the time of Constantine the great which was three hundred yeares after Christ or thereabout For before that time whosoeuer sincerelie preached the Gospell hee was forthwith accused of sedicion of preaching heresie and of new strange doctrine They were charged commonly by the Heathen to bee adulterers against kinde Manquellers Killers of children Churchrobbers most wicked most hurtful the enimies of mankinde guiltie of all kinde of wickednesse Enimies against the Goddes against the Emperoures against the lawes against good order against nature it selfe whatsoeuer mischiefe happened the Ethnikes 〈◊〉 impute it alwayes to the Christians The citie of Athens which had beene the â—â—â—taine of all knowledge was become the sinke of most horrible idolatrie Where Pâ—ule preaching Christ the Philosophers â—â—â—e Epicures and Stoikes resisted him 〈◊〉 saide what will this babler say â–ª Others said he semeth to be a setter forth of strange Gods Others saide may we nâ—t know what this new doctrine wherâ—â— thou spekest is in such rage the Ethniks and Infidels continued against the Christians vntill God of his mercie raised vp that worthie Emperour Constantine who aduaunced mightely the Gospell suppresâ—â—â— the enimies thereof and gaue the truth free passage throughout his dominion and â—mpire In his time all nations were called from Idolatrie Gentilitie and Iudaisme so continued manie hundred yeares vntill the Diuel was let loose and superstiâ—on inuaded the churche so that albeit â—e name of Christianitie remained afterâ—arde vnder the Popes gouernement yet Christes religion was abolished and abanâ—oned It is faith in Iesus Christe and â—he profession of true religion whiche maketh a Christian and not the outward name and therefore suche as were falle away from Christ his Gospell vnto the inuentions of man or suche as were coÌ„uerte onelie in name not being instructed in trâ— doctrine were no more Christians then the shadowe of a man is a man orâ— picture the thing which it doth represenâ— so that it was Nomen sinere Christian iâ— name and not in deede By the Turke aâ— so both the name and profession of a Christian was altogether vanquished Thuâ— much for
thy heade meaning thâ— woman Which text the Louanistes woulâ— seeme to reforme do put in ipse referring it to Christ You may see into what miseries you woulde bring vs to haue vs to beleue that the Virgin Marie should brusâ— the Serpents head whereas the words are to be vnderstanded of the seede of the woman Likewise in the Epistle vnto the Corinthians your olde translation hath these wordes Omnes quideÌ„ resurgemus â–ª sed non omnes imutabimur Wee shall all rise againe but wee shall not all be changed Which words be vntruely translated for all shall not rise againe because that at Christes comming some shall be founde aliue yet neuerthelesse All must be chaunged and this corruptible flesh must put on corruptioÌ„ But you wil perhaps say that the fault is not in the translation but in the Printer Why then hath your Church suffered the same translation to haue beene printed so often and hath not corrected these faultes Nay why with your Tridentine generall councell precisely say Let no man be so bolde or presume by any manner of colour to refuse the old common translation of the Bible To conclude you persuade the world if you haue authoritie not onely to allowe what translation ye list but also as your owne Canonistes doe auouch that the Pope the heade of your Church can at 〈◊〉 pleasure dispense against the Lawe of God against the Lawe of nature against the Apostles against all the commaundements of the olde and newe Testament That hee is Christes Lieftetenaunt not onely ouer thinges in heauen ouer thinges in earth and ouer things â—â— hell but also ouer the angels both good and badde whereas the true Church of God hath not at any time made her selfe â—â—udge ouer the worde and lawe of God 〈◊〉 alwaies hath vsed subiection vnto the â—â—â—e grounding all her religion and faith â—â—on the same worde And this you must needes confesse vnlesse you will denie a knowen trueth that we whose religion you doe so vehemently withstande haue alwayes perswaded the people not to beleeue vs one iotte further then we bring the woorde of God for our warrant And whereas you further enquire what Church hath had the custodie of the Bible and hath most safely preserued it I must needes say that God of his singuler mercie towardes his Churche by his diuine prouidence hath alwayes preserued his woorde to the comforte of his children as he preserued Elias in the wildernesse Daniel in the Lions denne the three children in the fornace Howe I pray you hath the Byble bene preserued by your Churche sith the whole worlde can testifie howe you haue burned the olde and newe Testament whiche thing is yet freshe in mans memorieâ— Did not Cutbert Tunstall being then Bishop of London cause the newe Testament to be burned at Pawles crosse in London as your Churche learned of Iehoakim king of Iuda who threw the boke which the Prophete Ieremie by Goddes commaundement had indited conteining the wrath of God against Iuda into the fier But you will say the Testamentes were falselie and vntrulie translated and therefore were burned If that had beene the cause it had bene your partes rather to haue disclosed and quoated forth the erroures and to haue amended the faultes Doeth the mother cast away the milke wherewith the children shoulde be nourished for that sometimes motes doe fall into it but rather culleth forth the moates giueth the Milke to the children euen so you ought to haue done What faultes were I beseech you in that translation you neuer noted anie if there had bene as indeede there were none why haue not you set forth a better what doctour of your Churche or fauorer of your Romishe Religion hath written in whose workes can not be found some errour yet we burned them not but are content to giue them the readinge and do reuerence them so farre as they agree with Gods truthe Further if â—n Angell should speake or write we ought not to beleue him Iudge you nowe laying away all affection whether your Church â—â— ours doe better esteme of the Bible or â—â— the better preserue the same Papist SHew me why our common knowen church did not as well corrupt the text of the Testament as the true religion contained in the same Shewe me why she kepte not as trulie and as faithfully the true sense of Gods woorde as she preserued the worde it selfe Shewe me why we shoulde beleeue the Papistes as ye tearme them for the worde it selfe and yet we shoulde beleeue you Protestantes for the meaning of the worde rather than them Shewe me why you beleeued our Churche telling you this to be Gods booke and will not credite her aduouching this to be the true and vndoubted sense of the same booke and last of all shewe me why you beleeued the elder knowen Churche affirming this to be the word and doe not beleeue her affirming Luther to be an Heretike Shewe me good reason or Scripture for these poyntes and I recant Answeare YF you meane by your common knowen Churche the Churche of Rome as you will easily assent therevnto then your Church is more common than true For triall whereof it is plaine and that by Saint Barnarde that the pastoures of your Churche of Rome keepe not the spouse of God whiche is his Churche but they destroy her They keepe not the flock but they kill and deuoure And one whiche writeth of your Church in that great and solemne assemblie at Constance saieth They did quenche the spirite they did dispise the voice of the prophetes they persecuted Christ in his members and it was altogether a persecuting churche Barnard in an other place likewise crieth out O miserable Rome which in the time of our Elders hast brought foorth the lightes of worthie Fathers but in our dayes hast brought forth the monstruous darkenes shamefull and slanderous to the time to come An other calleth Rome a schoole of errour a temple of heresie And your old friend Thomas Becket whome you haue canonized for a Saint saith Our holy mother of Rome is become an harlot and hath prostituted her self that is hath set her selfe open to euerie man for reward And what neede we goe farre one of your owne nest in the late councell of Trent sheweth his iudgement of your Churche of Rome They haue brought to passe saieth he that godlinesse is turned into hypocrisie and that the sauoure of life is turned into the sauour of death Woulde to GOD they were not gone with one generall consent from religion to superstition from faith to infidelitie from Christ to Antichrist from God to Epicure saying with wicked heartes and filthie mouthes there is no god Truth seketh not to be shrouded in corners I haue noted before a fewe places amongst many in which you haue corrupted the text of the Byble You seeme to vrge this matter instantly that your Church hath kept and
auouched truely and faithfully the true sense of the Scripture and doo merueile verie much why wee will not giue credit vnto you I will giue you a taste of a fewe places which your Church hath fouly wrythed Where the Apostles yet so rude that they thought with outward weapons to withstand the enemies doo offer vnto Christ two swoordes Pope Boniface doth expound these words saying behold two swords that is to say the Pope hath the power both of the spiritual sword of the teÌ„poral So they apply corruptly the psalmist thou hast made al things subiect vnto him that is to say to the Pope the catel of the field that is to say men liuing in the earth the fishes of the sea that is to say soules in purgatory the birdes of heaueÌ„ that is to say the soules of the blessed in heaueÌ„ Pope Alexander treading most cruelly vppon the Emperour Frederiks neck abuseth this part of the Psalme Thou shalt walke vppon the Aspe and Basilisk the young Lyon and the Dragon shalt thou treade vnder thy feete What need many testimonies seeing that your church hath wrested the whole booke of the Psames which concerne God the father and his sonne Christ to magnifie the Virgin Mary withall that whereas shee acknowledgeth Christ to be her Sauiour and herselfe to be the handmaide of the Lorde you go about to make her a Goddesse and say that she is fidelissima Dei socia a felow mate with God. As also another of your Cardinals calleth her DominaÌ„ DeaÌ„ nostraÌ„ our Lady and Goddesse Where you say that your Church gaue vs knowledge â—f the holy Byble it is most vntrue for that you hidd the same in an vnknowne tongue and woulde not suffer the vnlearned to haue the vse thereof And albeit you very rashely impute heresie vnto Luther truely all the heresies which euer he maintained he sucked forth out of the nurcerie of your Church and treasury of your Pope Iâ— you knowe anie other in his writings sauing that he defended with you the real presence of Christs body in the Sacrament I would haue you to name it But it is youâ— accustomed wont to call vs heretikes although you be not able to prooue that wâ— defend any one heresie Neuerthelesse wâ— must be content to beare your woordes foâ— so the olde Prophets were charged with â—â—dition and heresie and so Tertullus charged Paule the Apostle beginning his oration with flatterie and ending the samâ— with a manifest vntruth We haue saitâ— he found this man a pestilent fellowe â— mouer of sedition among all the Iewes throughout the worlde and a chiefe maintainer of the sect or heresie of the Nazarets for so the wicked tearmed the true Christian religion as you doe and to answere you fully we say with the Apostle That after the way which you cal heresie so woorship we the liuing God and his sonne Christ beleeuing all thinges which be written in the Lawe the Prophets and the Gospell Papist AGaine what Church is that which hath exercised by Christes appointment discipline vpon offenders in all degrees and for that purpose hath continually executed lawes and canons ecclesiasticall with excommunication degradation suspension and suche like Proue me this geare to haue proceeded from Protestantes or from anie other Churche then from the Catholike and Irecant Answeare Concerning discipline First you alledge excoÌ„munication the true vse whereof you neuer had in your Church of Rome sichens it firste declined from the auncient Church of Rome Now as a bloudie mother you send out the thunderboltes of excoÌ„munication against all those which reiect your superstitious traditions euen like your grandfathers the Pharisies who in the time of our sauiour Christ did excoÌ„municate all those which did truely conâ—â—â—se Christ and yet thought they pleased â—â—d highly Iohn truely did prophesie of 〈◊〉 Church that she should excoÌ„muniâ—â—â—e and kill all suche as woulde not worship the image of the beast that is â—â—â—eiue the ordinaunces and decrees of the sea of Rome Excommunication wâ— not vsed in the primitiue Church but â— graue offences as appeareth by the Apâ—stle Paule who did excommunicate one â— incest and Himeneus and Alexander â— making shipwracke of the faith of Chriâ— They did not in the primitiue Church â— communicate without the consent of tâ— clergie people which discipline decaâ—ing in Saint Ambrose his time at thâ— least in the church where he was he lamâ—teth in these wordes The olde congregation saith he and the Church following had Seniors without whose counsell nothing was done but I knowe noâ— by what negligence it did grow out oâ— vse vnlesse it were either by the sloth fulnes or rather the pride of the pastors whilest they onely would seeme to haue the preheminence Saint Cyprian disputing this matter at large speaketh after this maner Euer since I was Bishop I determined to doe nothing without theâ— councell of the cleargie and consent of the people But you doe vse this kinde of discipline or rather abuse it priuatly in euery light monie matter but chiefâ—ie against suche as will not embrace your Romishe traditions Iohannes Scotus alias Duns one of your Capitaines who liued about the yeere of our Lorde 1336. complaineth of the abuse of your excommunication and of the Papes keyes sayinâ—â— That excommunication before his time was not vsed but vppon greate and iuste causes and therefore feared but nowe saith he it is broched and published for euerie trifle and therefore groweth in contempt Furthermore you doe neither excommunicate degrade or suspende except it be a verie great chaunce for anie other cause then is aforesaide You haue rules to dispense with your gelding Priestes Si non caste tameÌ„ caute If that thou canst not liue chaste yet play the whoremonger cunningly You degrade some and when you haue taken your Popish robes from them you turne their bodies to ashes by cruell fier But to knitte vp all in fewe wordes our Sauiour Christe did not promise to â—â—ue behinde him a Church which should â—â—ecute suche ecclesiasticall discipline as â—â—u haue prescribed or shoulde alwayes â—â—twardly in great pompe appeare to the â—ewe of the whole world But he calleth â—â—s Churche a little flocke shewing them before hand that in the world They shouâ— weepe and lament and haue tribulatâ—on that the world shoulde reioyce bâ— they shoulde be sadde and that as all thâ— wicked persecuted him the Lord so shouâ— they persecute them his seruauntes dâ— proue this and I recant Papist AND because Christ as Saint Pauâ— saith hath established in his Chuâ—che some Apostles some Preachers some teachers and Doctoures eueâ— till his comming againe I aske the Protestant what Church that is which is ablâ— to shew and proue the continuance and vsâ— of those functions euer since Christ his time by plaine accompt of orderly succession and is able to name by the hystories of all ages the notable persons of al the
we faithfully râ—ceiuing the visible and externall signes according to Christ his institution in remembraunce of his death and passion spirituaâ—ly doe feed vpon the body of Christ aâ—â— receiue the fruites of his death euen remission of our sinnes Other sacramentes we haue no warrant for in the worde of god These sacramentes were onely vsed by Christ and his Apostles and by all their true successours The sacramentes in the olde Testament vnto which anie promise was annexed were these two onely that is circumcision and the Passouer which doe rightly and aptly represent 〈◊〉 two sacramentes set forth in the newe â—â—â—ament as Baptisme and the Lordes â—â—â—er which haue bene vsed alwaies â—â—â—e true Church euer since Christ and â—â—â—ued of the auncient Fathers as the onely knowne sacramentes appoynted by â—â—â—rist So Augustine affirmeth That 〈◊〉 Lord the Apostles deliuered vnto â—â—â—ewe sacraments in steede of manie 〈◊〉 the same to be most easie in doing â—â—â—st reuerend in vnderstandinge and in â—â—â—eruation most pure to wit the sacrameÌ„ts of Baptisme the celebratioÌ„ of thâ— sacrament of the body and blood of ouâ— Lorde Likewise another sayth The sacramentes of Christ in the catholikâ— Church are Baptisme and the bodâ— and bloude of our Lorde Which sacramentes also and all the principle poynte of our true religion Constantine the Christian and godly Emperour and alâ— his noble successours mightely defended and set forth the same The same Constantine was christened not by the Pope buâ— by Eusebius Bishop of Nicomedia noâ— in a corner but in the presence of many other not popishe but Christian Bishopes Hee ouercame Licinium his sisters husbande who persecuted the Christians The same Constantine summoned a councell at Nice against that blasphemous heritike Arrius And as the historie saith the Emperour before named wrote vnto all the rulers of the Churches that they shoulde be at Nice by a day to the Bishop of the Apostolicke sea to Macarius Bishope of Hierusalem and to Iulius the bishope of Rome In that flourishing time liued sundry godly writers whose bookes nowe extant doe shewe that they embracced the same faith and religion which we at this day do professe touching the Sacramentes iustification by faith onely inuocation to God alone saluation onely by Christ and all other chiefe poyntes of doctrine whose workes if your Romish Church had kept inuiolable and had not corrupted as you did in like manner with the Canonicall books of the Bible you might haue learned a difference betwixt trueth and errour And if you would yet hearken to the doctrine which they doe deliuer they will teach you that your Romish church is a cage of vncleane birdes and that your religion is mingled with all heresies though you charge others with the same fault and that you haue no true discipline but rather crueltie no principall pastor sauing Antichrist no officers but Blood-suckers and no Churche in deede but the Sinagogue of Sathan that cruell mother whiche will needes haue the Childe to be cutte in peeces which spareth no Sexe or kinde no Infant though it bee in the mothers belly no hoare heade nor aged person finally your church hath no truth but falshood and iâ— wholly imbamed with the heresies of aâ— ages You take parte with the Iewes anâ— Pagans you care not with whome yoâ— shake handes so it be not with Christ or his holy Gospell vnto which you doo beare â— deadly hate And yet you stand vpon youâ— reputation and would haue men to beleeuâ— you whatsoeuer you speake Whereas you call our Church A contemptible vnknowne close and secret company at thiâ— day the Lord be thanked the greater partâ— of Europe besides the countries I spakâ— of before doo ioyne together with vs iâ— one truth of doctrine I would haue yoâ— to prooue by the worde of God for youâ— wordes bee no warrant to auenturâ— our soules vppon your Romish Church to bee the auncient and true Catholike Church and to professe the same faith and doctrine truely which Christ his Apostles left behinde them and that which was in the time of those godly Emperours of Rome and a long tyme after or that Christ did promise to leaue such a Church as should haue onâ— generall and chiefe Pastor to sit in iudgement to punish offendors and to call a generall councell to try the truth or else we cannot ioyne with you against God and against his sonne Christ For we acknowledge no other principall Pastor but Christ Iesus whom the heauens must conteine vntill the time that all thinges be restored which God hath spokeÌ„ by the mouth of al his holy prophets since the world began who neuerthelesse is euer present with his Church Papist 7 AGaine I require of the Protestant to declare by good histories or by reasonable likelyhod when the true church as they account theirs to be decaied or in what yeare the religion of the Papistes came in and preuailed Whether all their true Church was so soundly sleeping that none would preach against it euen at the tyâ—e when it first entred Whether all nations sodeinly and in one yeare were mooued vnto the doctrine of the Papistes no one man of all their true â—hurch either preaching teaching wriâ—â—â—g nor attempting any thing against it â— making mention of it Whether all â—â—â—kes of seruice were altered Whether 〈◊〉 a moment the masse was sayed in steede of their Apostolike communion Whether sodenly men began to pray for soules departed sodenly required the helpe of Saintes in heauen sodeinly the tongue of common praier was altered Tell me in what yeare of our Lorde vnder what Emperour vnder what Pope vppon what occasion this merueilous mutation was made by whome all these thinges were wrought who preached against it what storie maketh mention of it who of al your Pastoures preached against it Was Goddes Churche so voyde of the spirite of truth and strength that euen then when it most flourished it had none that durste open his mouth agaynst suche corruption of religion at the firste entering in of it and when it mighte soone haue beene repressed If it coulde not haue bene stayde tell me in what yeare of our Lorde this mutation was made and who of the true Preachers withstode our doctrine and yf wee note you not by the names euerye one of your captaines and the seuerall errours whiche they taught and the time and yeare when they rose against the receiued truth and the councels wherein they were orderly condemned If I say this canne bee doone on your side towards vs and wee do it not for improofe of your Church and religion I recante And for that purpose because the gouernement of the Bishoppes of Rome is moste misliked of them And yet moste notoriously knowne by euery Historie let them note the Pope that first brake of the course of his forefathers beliefe and Regiment in anie Articles of faith or necessarie Christian vsage And I recant Answeare 7. MY meaning is not to
make anie long or large discourse or rehersal as concerning the Originall and offspring of your holy Churche of Rome whose beginning was with moste detestable and heynous murders poysoninges and other suche like meanes and practises neyther yet to dilate vppon the proceading succession or continuance thereof from time to tyme and vntill this present day neyther doo I mynde to remember you of the honour and reuerence which by the collour of your succession you haue wonne therevnto from God vnto whome onely such honor is due But to answeare you in few words the true Church of God began first to decay wheâ— as your Byshoppes of Rome not conteâ—ted with their dioces and their peculiaâ— charge vsurped other mens rightes anâ— interest or when they chalenged aucthoritie aboue their felow Byshoppes Thiâ— was in Phocas time who flew his Maistâ— Mauritius the Emperour and to currâ— fauoure with the Pope yeelded vnto hiâ— that superioritie that he shoulde be calleâ— the vniuersall Byshoppe and heade of thâ— Churche And so saith Platina Bonifaâ— saith he the thirde of that name obtained of Phocas the Emperoure yeâ— not without greate contention that hâ— should be called the heade of the Churche So saieth Sabellicus The Pope Boniface the thirde saith he at his beginning intreated Phocas the Emperoure that the Romaine Church might be the heade of all other Churches and that was graunted vnto the Apostolike Sea not without greate strife the Grecians claiming that honour saying that they ought by Christian pietie to be chiefest in respecte of the Empire whiche long before that time was at Constantinople Yet it appeareth by the writinges of Gregorie the greate that this challenge shoulde rather be a signe of Antichrist then of a true minister of Christ and therefore he writeth vnto Iohn Byshoppe of Constantinople saying It is not my cause but it is Goddes not I onely but the whole Church is troubled because godlie lawes reuerend synodes and the verie commaundementes of our Lord are ouerthrowne by a certaine proude and pontificall name or worde of vniuersalitie And againe he saith Whosoeuer doeth call him selfe an vniuersall Byshoppe is either Antichriste or the forerunner of Antichrist And agayne None of our Romaine Bishoppes euer chaleÌ„ged this name of singularitie none of my predecessors euer agreed to vse this prophane worde we will not receiue this honour though it were offered vnto vs. And to speake the playne trueth euen from this time Goddes true Churche beganne to decay and the superstitions of your Churche of Rome by little and little to increase and as your Churche grewe in wealth and riches so it waxed proude and carelesse as a good writer spake of it Ecclesia peperit diuitias et filia deuorauit matrem Thâ— Church brought forth riches and tâ— daughter deuoured the mother Foâ— euen this same Gregorie who liued sixe hundred yeares and odde after Christ not wtihstanding his owne bookes doe witnesse agaynst him to all posterities yet in his latter age he claymed this name of vniuersalitie though he could neuer attaine it for not onelie he but all before him and manie after him yeelded them selues vnto the Emperours refusing to be called vniuersall byshoppes or heades of the Churche Marcellus Meltiades and Siluester Byshoppes of Rome were in subiection vnto Constantine the Emperour Sirilius in subiection to Theodosius Anno domini 388. Hilarius vnto Iustinian Anno Domini 528. Gregorie the first vnto Mauritius Anno domini 600 Adrian and Leo to Ludouicus Pius Anno domini 830. Sergius vnto Lotharius Anno. 840. Benedict 3. and Iohn 9. vnto Ludouicus the Emperour Sonne of Lotharius Anno domini 856. But some of these byshops with their successoures peeced and patched with certaine superstitious ceremonies your Churche euen vntil â—ildebrandes time otherwise called Gregorie the. 7. at whiche time as it was prophecied long before Antichrist â—d beginne his full raigne Which Hildeâ—ande by a councell of nineteene byshops â—olden at Brixia was condemned for a â—riured person and a Necromancer As for your masse which was and is a more abhominable Idoll then the idoll at Delphos thoughe the Diuell himselfe was worshipped there in personall forme it was seuen hundred yeares in setting together and in framing And transubstantiation the piller of your masse not hatched vntil your Lateran councel beganne which was after Christ 1215. yeares and some euen the chiefest doctoures of your Churche cannot tell whether it be true or false certaine or vncertaine or a verie dreame or no. For Petrus Lumbaâ—â—us rehearseth these doubtes and therevnto he addeth his aunswere Quibusdam ita videtur Quidam dicunt quidam tradunt quidam concedunt alii putauerunt substantiam ibi panis et vini remanere Some men iudge thus Some say thus Some haue written thus some graunt this some other haue thought thus that the verie substance of the breade and wine remaineth still But marke your doctours iudgement and aunswere Si autem queritur qualis sit illa conuersio an formalis an substantialis an alterius generis definire non sufficio Yf a question weare moued what maner of conuersion or chaunge this is whether it be in forme or in substaunce or of some other sort I cannot define You may see your great doctors to be as ignorant and as doubtfull as the rest An other of your doctours saith How the body of Christ is there whether it be by chauÌ„ging of something into it or Christ his body begin to be there to gither with the bread both the substance and the accidents of the breade remaining still without chaunge it is not found expressed in the canon of the bible Beholde your Church Behold your doctours Beholde your vniforme assent and agreement whiche vntruely you so much boast of What time prayers for the dead soules Inuocation to Saintes seruice in an vnknowne and straunge tounge began in your Romish Church it is not much materiall seing they be all expresly â—gainst the worde of god The continuâ—unce of an errour doth not make the erâ—our a truth You may knowe by the scripâ—ures that the soules of such as departe his life in the faith of Christ be with Laâ—arus in Abrahams bosome as Saint â—ohn saith in rest and need not your praiâ—rs Such as end theire life in wickednes â— dye without true repentaunce be in hell â—here as the scripture saith that there is â—o redemption Concerning inuocation â—nd praier which is a parte of gods worâ—hip you robbe God of his due honour if â—ou giue that to anie creature which is â—roper to the creator For God saith by â—is prophet HonoreÌ„ meum alteri non â—abo I will not giue mine honour to â—nie other And againe Call vpon me â—n the day of thy trouble and I wil heare â—hee So likewise our Sauiour Christ â—aith whatsoeuer you shal aske my father â—n my name he shall giue it you And Saint Iohn saith If anie man sinne â—ee haue an
they mighte bee permitted to haue still the Gospels the Epistles and the Creede in their vulgare tongue iâ— which peticion they affirmed that in the Sclauon language it had beene vsed of old in the Church and likewise in their owne kingdome Charles the great called fiue councels namely at Mentze Rome Remes Cabilon and Arelate also decreed that onely the canonicall bookes of the Scripture shoulde be reade in the Church and none other as it was decreed long before in the councell holden at Carthage He â—ame one of them in the whole Church eiâ—her erected for your faith Church and serâ—ice or not prepared for all sortes for cathoâ—ke practises proue to me that it was done â—or any other seruice and religion then ours â—r that they be monuments of any other faith â—r church then that common knowne cathoâ—cke church And I recant Answeare 9. WHereas you demaund What furniture our Congregation euer â—ad c. I must needes tell you that either â—he hauing of such furniture or the want â—hereof are but weake feble argumentes â— proue the true Church of God by In â—utwarde pompe in superfluous ornaâ—ents in vnnecessarie toyes in vaine decâ—ing of your Churches with gold and silâ—er and other precious and costly attire in â—nprofitable rites in furnishinge your â—mples with abhominable idols in pleaâ—ng the eare in delightinge the eye in â—uginge in roaring in toying in trifâ—ng in nodding in becking in ducking â— all such heathenishe shewes and sensles significations wee thinke your Romishâ— Church excelled all idolatrous Ethnicks before and therefore in such superstitiouâ— trifles wee will not compare with you but willingly geue vnto you the preheminence because they be not signes of true religion but badges of Antichriste and furniture to deck the whore of Rome withall For all such kind of trumperie be her very markes As these was none of these toyes in the primitiue Churche neither in anie true reformed Churche sithence that â—â—ine â–ª so there was no Churches vntill the time of Constantine the great who builded churches and moued others to doe the like for the people of God to repaire vnto for to heare the worde of God truly preached to receiue the Sacramentes faithfully ministred according to Christes institution for the same vse and purpose we haue builded Churches and doe continually repaire and reedifie suche as be decayed and â—uâ—nous But vnto the time of Constantine the Christians were violentely and extremelie put to death and persecuted of tyrantes hauing no publike places to resorte vnto but priuately assembled themselues sometimes in dwelling houses sometimes in hollowe caues and dennes â—or feare of the cruel bloudie torments Laurentius Valla saith that in times past before the raigne of Constantine the greate the Christians had no temples but secrete and close places holie little houses but no great and gorgeous buildinges chappelles no Churches oratories within priuate walles no publike and open Churches For your chalices I will onelie vse the saying of Pope Boniface In time past saith he golden Byshoppes vsed woodden chalices but now wodden Byshopps vse golden chalices In like manner in Constantine his time there were no altars of lime stone but communion tables of wood and a long time after as it may easilie be proued by auncient writers Athanasius writeth That the ArriaÌ„ Heretikes in their furie and their rage did carrie foorth and burne the seates the pulpettes the wodden table and boorde and suche other thinges as they coulde gett out of Christian Churches S. Augustine writeth the same of the Donatistes Concerning your vestimentes your catholike practises and all your trumperies and beggerly Ceremonies for which you haue no warrant in Gods booke we way not one rushe Wee hould vs contented with that which Christ our sauior his Apostles and other catholik godly Fathers vsed Did not our sauiour Christ I pray you minister his last supper vnto his Apostles at the table without any further ceremonie euen as the Apostles all true Christians haue done euer more â–ª whose example the Lord grauÌ„t vs to folow Papist 10 I Aske of them whether the Lutherans Zwinglians Illirians Caluinists Confessionists Zwingfeldians Anabaptists and such like be all of one church And if either they can proue vnto me that these being of such diuersitie in faith and religion make one church or that eche of these sectes may giue saluation to their folowers being so disagreable one with the other in high points of our religion or that I should beleeue all these rather then the catholike church or one of these more then an other all makinge such a bould chaleÌ„ge for the truth Gospel Let the protestants of all these conferr together shew me of these things and with all amoÌ„g them selues agree to what sort of these sectes they would haue me I recant Answeare 10 I Do merueile greatly that you impute vnto our religion the heresies of the Anabaptists Swingfeldians seing that wee doe not in our daily sermons inueigh against their blasphemous errours but also haue written sundry bookes to confute the the same You doe aske a verie hard difficult questioÌ„ which you do vtter either for want of wit or lacke of knowledge to wit Whether Caluin c. were of one Churche whether they gaue saluatioÌ„ to their followers It is not in man precisely to define who is of Gods Church for that they only be of Gods inuisible church Whome God hath elected vnto saluation in his sonne Christ before the fouÌ„datioÌ„ of the world was layd God only doth knowe who are his But it may be that you vnderstand it of the visible church then I will aunswere you accordingly that we are certainly persuaded that they were Gods children and that they ended their life and closed vp their eyes in the true faith of Christe doe rest now in Gods Kingdom Where you seeme to charg them with manifold scismes diuersitie of iudgmentes the truth is that they agreed in all points with the scriptures sauing that Luther in the real presence dissented from the rest which heresie as I haue noted before he receiued of your church of Rome I would not haue you to thinke that we ground our faith and religion or repose any part of our saluation vpon any particular Church or Councel or vpon any mortall man as you do We receiue mens iudgments and writings as they are men and so may erre And so the godly Fathers in times past were reputed and taken S Augustine hath these woordes Wee ought not sayth he to accept the disputations writings of any one be they neuer so Catholik and prayse worthie as we do receiue the canonicall scriptures but that sauinge their reuerence due vnto them we may well finde fault with or reiect some thinges in their writinges if it happen we finde they haue otherwise thought then the truth may beare them so am I in
other mens writing and so would I haue others vnderstand myne It is most true that Origem Ambrose Augustine Hierom the other fathers of the Church haue their seuerall errors one doth write against an other most vehemently What maruell is it that these did differ seing that â—he Apostles theÌ„ selues could not agree alwayes in all pointes Paule did withstand Peter in the face before all men Platina one of your owne storie writers affirmeth that the Popes them selues whom you brage so much of did repugne one an others decrees The next Pope saith he either breaketh or vtterly repealeth his predecessors decrees For these little petie Popes had no other studie to occupie them selues with all but only to deface the name of the former Popes of which church were not only these Popes but also your owne scholemen pillers of your religion How came it to passe that these thinges were vttered in your owne boks Barnardus non vidit omnia Barnarde did not see all things Hic magister non tenetur Here one maister is not to bee receiued Thomas Aquine saith that we are not boÌ„nd vpon the necessitie of saluatioÌ„ to beleue not only the Doctours of the Churche as Hierom. August â–ª but also neither the church it selfe sauing only matters concerning the substaunce of faith But lett all mens aucthoritie passe and receiue that remaining in eight Persons the which which the holy Apostle wriceth Whosoeuer bringeth not the Doctrine of the Gospell receiue them not And againe If wee or an Angell from heauen doe preach any other doctrine theÌ„ you haue receiued hold him accursed To conclud we ought not to leane either to this man or that to the right hand or to the left to this church or that church in any thing whatsoeuer further then the truth of Gods word doth direct vs Neither doeth our saluation depend vppon anie earthly man but we ascribe it wholy to our lord sauiour Christ by whose stripes onely we are healed Papist 11 MOreouer I aske of the Protestants whether in the time on which they hold the true Church to haue bene hidden or lost the people that learned this article of their Creede I beleue the catholik Church was bound to goe from the church which they sawe and which taught them both that article all other things touching their faith by which they were christened receiued al other sacramentes commodities of saluation And whether they were bound to seeke for this vnknowne closse congregation which they could neither come vnto nor by â—hich they neuer receaued any benefit nor â—ould receiue any so forsake the church â—y whome and in whome they receiued both â—heir faith sacraments Shew me therfore â—hat the Christian men of those dates were charged to beleue any other church or seke for any other church theÌ„ that which taught them the articles of the church and baptized them And I recant Answeare 11 YOu further demauÌ„d Whether the people when the Church was hid were bound to goe from the church which they sawe seeke the vnknowne church beleue the same If you will vouchsafe to peruse that which I haue noted heretofore which is also confirmed by sundrie learned authorities viz. that the true church of God is to be sought for to be found only by the scripturs which are the foundations of the same church you may be satisfied heerein that the people ought to stay them selues vpon the scriptures not to beleue any further then Gods word leadeth theÌ„ The true church of God is not alwayes most apparant in earth or consistinge of the greatest number This appeareth by Noah in setting him selfe against all the worlde the true Church onely excepted then were saued in the arke and all the worlde else drowned Was not Lot his small familie the true Church of God deliuered by the Angells and the fiue whole citties destroyed â–ª where was the Church in the time of Elias when he complained most bitterly and said I haue bene verie ielous for the Lord God of hoastes For the children of Israel haue forsaken the couenant broken downe the altars slaine thy Prophetes with the swoord I only am lefte and they seeke my life to take it away Where was the Church when Esay the Prophet cried out How is the faithfull cittie become an harlot it was full of iudgement iustice lodged therein but now they are murtherers their siluer is become drosse their wine is mixed with water their Princes are rebellious and companions of theeues Where was the Church when Dauid the Prophet did breake for the into theise words there is not one that doeth good no not one If there were any Church of God in these times in which these Propheâ—es liued no doubt it was in verie fewe or els hid altogether otherwise they would not so greeuouslie haue complained of the want thereof And yet there was in all â—ese times a Church in outwarde forme â—ewe to the iudgment of man supposed to â— the true Church where the Iewes the â—â—e Church at what time they bosted most â— the outwarde beautie of their Church â—ying We are the temple of the Lord or â—hen they sayd wee are the children of God whereas euen at that time they went â— whoring after their owne inuentions But as the Scribes Pharisies vaunted â—em selues that they were the true Church â—f God the Disciples of Moses the sonnes â—f Abraham where as in deede by the teâ—â—imonie of our sauiour Christ they worâ—â—ipped God in vaine teachinge the preâ—eptes and doctrines of men and erred for â—hat they knowe not the scriptures were â—ypocrites dissemblers deuouring wiâ—owes houses vnder a colour of longe praiâ—r euen so you with your Church of Rome â—hough you bragge neuer so much of your â—uccession and aucthoritie the holy ghost â—lainly sheweth that your Babilon shall â—aue a fal Our sauiour Christ telleth both â—ou the pharisees that you haue made through your own deuises the temple of God adenn of theues Triumph neuer so much that you are the catholike church â–ª that you are in the arke of Noah you are none of Gods neither shall be till you renounce abolish your vaine ceremonies â— false worshipping of God other thinges which you do contrarie to his holy wordeâ— The true church of God is coÌ„pared to the Moone which sometimes is full clere aâ— bright sometimes in the Eclips is wan â— darke so the church of God is now great now small now calme and in quietnesse nowe subiect to tempests and troubles nowe in many nowe in fewe And therefore you are greatlie deceiued in that you do thinke the Church vtterly extinguished wheÌ„ it appeareth not at your pleasure Thus you may learne by sundrie writers that God hath had wil haue alwaies his church whether it be more or lesse One which hath written the Forte of
â—e Lord we will not heare them of thee â—ut we wil doo whatsoeuer thing goeth â—orth of our owne mouth as to burne â—ncense vnto the Queene of heauen and â—o poure our drinke offerings vnto her as we haue doone both we and our fathers our kinges and our princes in the â—itie of Iuda in the streetes of Hierusalem Whereas in deede they woorshipped sacrificed to the Sonne Moone and Starres and committed grosse Idolatrie against god Euen as you haue learned by that idolatrous people and grounded I thinke vppon this place to call the Virgin Mary Queene of heauen and to sing Salue Regina and againe Regina coeli laetare Reioyce O Queene of heauen And euen from this same time wherein Ieremie liued and for the most parte vntill the time of our Sauiour there were false Prophets and men of greate learning which preached idolatrie in steed of Gods lawe yet imagined that they serued God shal we say that these were of Gods church because their religion continued so long a time woulde that excuse them or the Pharisees in pleading that they were the true successors of Moses the children of Abraham and that they taught the Lawe of God when as in deede they had corrupted the Lawe Euen so albeit you boaste neuer so much of succession or that your Church hath continued thus manie hundreâ— or thus many thousand yeeres or that your Churche is the knowne Catholike Church if that you be not able to prooue by the woord of God that your Church is the true Church and the religion and doctrine of your Church is fully and wholy in euery point grounded vppon the Gospell of Christ which you shall neuer be able to doo then you boaste and bragge in vayne The Turke himselfe by this argument of succession and continuance may approue the Alcaron and religion of Mahomet and this to be as true a Churche as yours This reason might the Aegyptians the Persians the Romanes and all Esawes broode haue alleadged for themselues So that to ende this matter it is neither the title or name of a Churche neither the succession of Officers or the continuance of the same or the aucthoritie of anie man that maketh the difference betwixte the true and false Churche but onelie the true worde of God which discetneth them Papist 14 MOreouer let anie Protestant shewe how that can be the piller of truth whiche durst not for a thousande yeares together claime either the preaching of Gods worde or ministring the Sacramentes or woulde vtter her selfe against falshood and superstition Let any man shew that all the giftes of the Spirite and functions of the holie Ghoste haue been taken from her for a thousande yeares together and onely practised for the peoples vse by the adulterous Churche Let it bee declared how the gates of bell haue not preuailed and Christes woordes promise and warrant for her hath not bene voyde and frustrate of a bastarde churche exercising perpetuall idolatrie as they say hath spoyled the true churche of all holie actions and of the whole gouernement and of the whole name of Christianity almost euer since Christes time Let me see therefore howe the onely dareling and spouse of Christe shoulde be neglected so long of him so long let the Aduersarie shewe that the Churche should euer by superstition and falshood committ adulterie or deserue to be deuorced from him or that Christ shoulde euer want his spouse in earth or that he shoulde be either a heade without a bodie or of such an vnknowen and small bodie or that Christ his onelâ—e kingdome should become so contemptable or that his spouse in earth shoulde euer lacke the singuler prerogatiue of Gods spirit Shewe me these things and I recant Answeare 14. COncerning the principal matter comprised in this your demaunde it is sufficientlie answeared before howe that all the Christians in Greece and Asia haue euer refused to agree with your Churche in faith and doctrine that God hath raised vp from time to time since your Churche declined from the true and Apostolike faith some which haue inueighed against your superstitious traditions euen as it is recorded by a learned writer who affirmeth That there hath bene some in euerie age which haue honored and embraced the Gospell but that within the space of these foure hundred yeares the zeale therof hath decaied in manie men And whereas you aske Howe the holie Ghost coulde be kepte so long from this close â—hurche how the gates of hell haue not preâ—ayled against it howe Christes dearling â—ouldâ— be neglected howe Christe shoulde â—e head of suche a Churche as hath either â—o bodie at all or else a very small and â—tle bodie â–ª I answeare that albeit to your â—do â—meaâ— the Churche of God whiche â—s the congregation of the faithful be conâ—mptible and despised yet neuerthelesse â— God 's eyes it is precious The holie Ghost commeth not in visiâ—le forme vnto the children of God as the Owle or Howlet presented himselfe in the â—ytime and stared your Pope Iohn in â—e face when he and his Cleargie were â—t in a general Councell holden at Rome by which occasion the Councel was dissolâ—ed â–ª but he is the comforter which shall â—wayes remaine with the church of God â—hich dwelleth with suche as be faithful â—hich guydeth and ruleth their mindes â—hich doth saÌ„ctifie them inwardly whiche â—pirite doeth breathe his graces where â—e listeth and when he pleaseth And thereâ—ore it is a great fault in you to vtter suche â—ashe iudgement and to propounde suche vayne questions or rather as you seeme to define where Gods spirite remayneth as though you had him in a string or that he should be at your becke and appointment The wordes of Christ be true That Hell gates which is the power of Sathan Antichrist which standeth in crafte and violence shall not preuaile against the Churche of God. For you may burne their bodies racke them in peeces teare them in sunder with wilde Horses boyle them in cauldrons roaste them on spittes broyle them vppon gridyorns stabbe and prodde them in with bodkins or penkniues throwe them vnto wilde beastes or other waies to torment them as your Church oâ— Rome hath vsed the children of God euen this close Churche whiche you so often do skoffe at Neuerthelesse their names are written in the booke of life When yoâ— haue consumed the bodie you haue no further power you haue done all that you caâ— for Christes Churche is Christes darling in deede whom he wil not forsake because he is alwayes faithfull and sure in his promises The mouth of God hath promised them helpe whiche cannot lie Christe iâ— deede is the true andonelie heade of his Churche whiche be the faithfull children â—f God truely called the temple of God â—ecause that GOD is resident in them by â—is holie spirite and these faithfull are the â—tones of the new Ierusalem which is the â—niuersall Churche of God of