against Brother and that before the unbeleavers Now therefore there is utterly a fault amongst you Civilian Can you shew any example or practice of such an Excommunication in the New Testament for that place 1 Cor. 5.5 I doubt shall not prove there being not only great Authors but great reasons for another Exposition as Moâ—liâ—s sheweth in his Vâ—tes l. 2. tc 11. namely that this delivering to Sathan was for bodily afflictions and torments which was not in the power of ordinary Ministers to doe but was a Prerogative of the Apostles Divine If you will I can debate that with you both from that very Text and from other reasons that this delivering to Sathan was an act not of the Apostle alone but of the Presbytery of Corinth whereby is meant Excommunication which is a cutting off from the Fellowship of the Church and so coâ—sequâ—ntly â— delivering to Sathan who reignes without the Church and holdeth captive at his pleasure the children of disobedience Or if you will I can take a shorter course with you For whatsoever may be the meaning of that phrase tradere Satana it is most plaine that Excommunication is in that Chapter vers. 6 7. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lumpe purge out therefore the old leaven verse 11. If any man that is called a Brother be a fornicatour c. with suâ—h an one no noâ— to â—â—â—e vers. 12. doe not ye â—udge them that are within vers. 13. Therefore put away from among your selves that wicked person 2 Cor. 2.6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment or censure inflicted by many But I suppose I shall not need to prove Church-censures and Excommunication in the Church of Câ—rinâ—h which Moulins himself doth fully acknowledge to be held forth in that same place Civilian I will thinke further upon these things Devine You may doe so and withall read what 〈◊〉 hath written against Erastus and Walaâ—â— against Witeâ—â—ogardus Civilian But tell me now your opinion of another matter and that is concerning liberty of Conscience and toleration of Hereticks and Seâ—taries for which there are so many bookes written of late and so few against iâ— I doe not know what you will pronounce of it from the Principles of your Profession but I beleeve that as in Germany France Holland Poland yea under the Turkish Tyranny contrary religions and opposite professions and practises have been and are tolerated upon State-principles so it shall be Englands unhappinesse though not to chose yet to be necessitated to grant such a tolleration for avoiding a rupture in the Kingdome and for preserving an Union against the common Enenmy Divine This Question about the Toleration of those whose way is different from the common rule which shall be established must be both stated and resolved cum â—rano salis We must remember to distinguish personâ— from Corporations or Churches and both these from errors Againe to distinguish persons whâ—ther godly and gratious or loose and libertin whether moderate and peaceable or â—actious and turbulent whether such as have deserved well oâ— the publike or such as have done either no service or a disservice To distinguish Corporation whether the Quâ—stion be of such onely as have a present existence or of all who shall joyne to such a way afterward To distinguish errâ—rs whether Practicall or Doctrinall onelâ— whether fundamentall or circafundamentall or neither of the two To distinguish Toleration whether absolute or Hypotheticall and conditionall whether anywhere or in somâ— few certaine places onely whether indifinite and generall or limited and bounded and if bounded how far and how much Whether â—uch Toleration as may stand with the solemne league and Covenant or such as is inconsistent therewith whether such as is profitable for the publike peace or such as is apparently destructive thereto These and the like particulars I doe not intend to fall upon at this instant Only this I say that to open a wide doore and to grant an unbounded liberty unto all sort of Hereticks and Sectâ—ries which is the thing that the good Samaritan and Iohn the Baptist the blood Tenent and others of that kind do plead for as it is inconsistent with the solemne league and Covenant of the three Kingdomes by which we are obliged to endeavour the extirpation of Popery Prelacie Superstition Heresie and Schismâ— least we partake in other mens sinnes and thereby be in danger to receive of their plagues So it is in the owne nature of it an error so pernicious so abominable so monstâ—ous that it maketh all learned men to stand amazed and taken with horrour in so much that they can not at first gather their thoughts to put pen to paper against it I know this liberty and Toleration was maintained by the Donatists of old and by the Socinians Arminians and Anabaptists of late but it hath beene constantly opposed by all that were sound and orthodoxe both Ancient and Moderne who have asserted the lawfull use of a coercive poweâ— against those things whereby though under pretence of conscience God is openly dishonoured soules ensnared and destroyed faith or piety subverted and overthrowne and further the compelling of the outward man though not to the practise of things indifferent which compulsion I doe not allow yet to the practise of necessary duties and to the externall use of meanes and ordinances by which through the blessing of God mens hearts and consciences may be savingly affected and wrought upon And I beseech you what else meaneth Asa's Covenant That whosoever would not seeke the Lord God of Israel should be put to death whether small or great whether man or woman And what else meaneth Iosiahs Covenant whereof it is said he caused all that were present in Ierusalem and Benjamin to stand to it And what else is that in Ezra that whosoever would not come to Ierusalem to make a Covenant and to put away the strange wives all his substance should be forfeited and himselfe separated from the Congregation of those that had beene carried away that is Excommunicated And what else is that other act of Iosiah in putting downe the Priests of the high Places And what say you to the Law of stoning those who did intice the people to turne out of the way wherein the Lord commanded them to walke saying Let us goe after other Gods and serve them Civilian I would rather heare some Arguments from the New Testament for I doubt these from the Old Testament shall be more subject to exception Divine To me it is plaine that these things doe as much concerne us now as the Jewes of old which whosoever denieth must shew that either we may take no rules nor patternes from the Old Testament or that the foresaid Lawes and practises were not intended by the holy Ghost to binde us as other things in the Old Testament doe but were ceremoniall and typicall intended to bind the Jewes onely Mr. Williams in
this that he preserveth strengtheneth and delivereth the Church invisible and all the members of his mysticall body from the malice of the Divell and the wicked world and also ruleth and commandeth their hearts by his spirit to walk in the wayes of his obedience But that the Kingly office of Christ reacheth so farre as to the externall government and order of a visible politicall ministeriall Church that I still doubt of Divine You observe not that my argument did conclude this very thing at which you stick that Christ hath appointed a certain policy and government and certain kinds of officers for the Church because hee hath fully and faithfully discharged his Kingly office in providing for all the necessities of his Church And that hee raignes and rules in his Church not only mystically but politically considered I suppose you cannot deny if you observe that otherwise a visible politicall Church is a body without a head and subjects without a King Therefore it is the ordinary expression of our Divines against Papists that the government of the Church is partly Monarchicall in regard of Christ our King and Law-giver partly Aristocraticall in regard of the Ministers and Officers and partly Democraticall in regard of certaine Liberties and Priviledges belonging to people Civilian I would understand whether the Reformed Churches hold the forme of their Ecclesiasticall government to be jure divino for I have heard that it was introduced among them only in a prudentiall way Divine I shall give you some cleare instances of their judgement such as come to my remembrance In the Book of the policy of the Church of Scotland I read thus This power and policy of the Church should leaâ—e upon the word immediately as the onely ground thereof and should bee taken from the pure fountaines of the Scriptures the Church hearing the voice of Christ the only spirituall King and being ruled by his Lawes In the French confession it is said we beleeve that this true Church ought to bee governed by that Regiment or Discipline which our Lord Iesus Christ hath established â—n the Belgick Confession I find words to the same purpose We beleeve say they That this Church ought to be ruled and governed by that spirituall Regiment which God himselfe hath delivered in his word See Harm Confes. Sect. 11. If the question were only this whether the Divine right of this or that form of Church-Government is to be mentioned and held forth in the ordinance of Parliament for my part I should not contend much for that the businesse going right otherwise But it belongeth at least to the Assembly of Divines to satisfie the consciences of men by holding forth the institution and ordinance of Jesus Christ which if it bee not done our proceedings shall not be conformable to those of other Churches Civilian Well then goe on you did bring an argument from the Kingly office of Jesus Christ Let me heare what other arguments you have to make it appeare that God hath in his word descended so farre into paricularities with us as to appoint a certain forme of Church-government Divine This will appeare best when the particular forme of Church-government with the Scripturall grounds of it shall be taken into consideration This government is Iure divino Ergo a government is Iure diviâ—â— This were too large a subject for our conference But I â—â—mit you to what is largely written concerning it I shall only put you in mind that in all ages God hath by positive Lawes descended into many particularities with man Take for instance beside the positive Law before the fall the Commandement not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evill other positive Lawâ— before the Law such as that of the distinction of clean and uncleane beasts Gen. 7. the Law not to eat blood Gen. 9. the Law of circumcision Gen. 17. Under the Law beside morall and forensicall observances there were many ceremoniall Statutes And under the Gospell Christ and his Apostles have left another Law which though it lay opon us neither many nor burthensome performances yet bindeth us to such and such things in Ecclesiasticall policy The particulars we find in the Acts of the Apostles and in the Epistles especially to Timothy and Titus and Rom. 12. and 1. Cor. 12. Civilian Many particulars of that kind there are in the Acts and Epistles of the Apostles But that those things were intended as perpetuall and binding ordinances is a great question And beside I have heard some learned men make a distinction betwixt Ius diâ—inum and Ius Apostolicum Divine This distinction was used by those that denyed the jus divinum of the Lords day But surely iâ— iâ— an iâ—â— grounded distinction and those that make most use of it are forced also to distinguish betwixt Ius divinum and Ius Mosaicum holding that though God was the Author of the morall Law yet Moses noâ— God was the Author of the judiciall and ceremoniall Law as the Apostles did write some things as Christs Heraulds other things as Pastors or Bishops of the Churches that they were Authors of the latter promulgators only of the former and that therefore the former only were Iure divino Thus saith Salmeron but hee is in this contradicted by Bellarmine Maldonat Suarez and others Lorinus in Psal. 88.32 noteth that it was one of the errors of Valentinus and of the Gnosticks that the Decalogue only was from God and other Lawes from Moses and the Elders of Israel But what saith the Apostle himselfe after hee hath given rules concerning the policy of the Church Let the Prophets speak two or three and let the other judge and the Spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets Let your women keep silence in the Churches c. Then he addeth 1. Cor. 14.37 If any man think himselfe to be a Prophet or spirituall let him acknowledge that the things that I writ unto you are the Commandements of the Lord Doe wee not also find the laying on of hands reckoned among those catâ—cheticall heads which the Apostles did deliver as perpetuall to all the Churches Heb. 6.2 Papists understand the Episcopall confirmation Dwerse of our writers understand ordination of Ministers and the severall kinds of Church officers However it is agreed on both sides it is a thing belonging to the policy of the Church not to the foundation of faith or piety I adde that the directions given to Timothy and Titus are standing ordinances for all the Churches as may be proved from 1. Tim. 3.15 and 6.14 and 2. Tim. 2.2 Civilian But Ratio mutabilis facit praeceptum mutabile The reason why there were ruling Elders and Deacons and Church-censures at that time was because there was no Chriâ—â—ian Magistrate So that under a Christian Magistrate there is no necessity of such officers government or censures in the Church Divine I answer First there is no ground at all in Scripture for such a
distinction for the Scripture holds not out one form of Church-government for times of persecution another for times of peace But rather one form to bee perpetuall and continued till the second coming of Jesus Christ Rev. 2.24 25. That which yeâ— have already hold fast till I come So 1. Tim. 6.14 before cited and the like 2. Chrysostome Hom. 12. in 1. Cor. doth shew diverse sinnes for which the best Law-givers had appointed no punishment And where there are Christian Magistrates yet there are no Lawes nor civill punishments for somethings which must needs fall within the compasse of Church-discipline such as ignorance of God neglect of family worship living in malice or envy c. 3. And though the civill or municipall Lawes should reach to all offences which are supposed to fall under the verge of Church-discipline yet there is still a necessary use of both For instance a Traitor or a Murtherer being excommunicated by the Church is by the blessing of God gained to true repentance humiliation and confession whereupon hee is loosed and remitted and again received into the bosome of the Church neverthelesse the civill sword falleth upon him were hee never so penitent shall such a one either escape the civill sword because reconciled to the Church or shall he after God hath given him mercy and a great measure of repentance die under the dreadfull sentence of excommunication because Justice must bee done by the Magistrate There is no way of avoâ—ding great inconveniences on both sides but by holding the necessary distinct uses both of the sword of the Magistrate and censures of the Church 4. And when they are most coincident it is but materially or objectively not formally one and the same man must bee civilly punished because justice and the law of the land so requireth and that the Common wealth may bee kept in Peace and Order he must also bee Ecclesiastically censured that his soule may be humbled that hee may bee filled with godly sorrow and with shame and confusion of face and drawn to repentance if possible which the Church not the Magistrate driveth at Civilian I have heard it asserted by some learned men that among the Jewes there was no government nor discipline in the Church distinct from the government of the State yea that there was no such distinction as Church and State but that the Jewish Church was the Jewish State and the Jewish State the Jewish Church and if it was so among them whose formes you take in many particulars for patterns I would fain know why it may not be so among us Divine Though the Jewish Church and Common wealth were for the most part not different materially the same men being members of both even as in all Christian Republickes yet they were formally different one from another in regard of distinct Acts Lawes Courts Officers Censures and Administrations For 1. The Ceremoniall law given was given to them as a Church the Judiciall law given to them as a State 2. They did not worship doe sacrifice pray praise c. as a State nor did they kill malefactors with the sword as a Church 3. As the Lords matters and the Kings matters were distinguished so there were two different Courts for judging of the one and the other 2. Chron. 19.8.11 Fourthly when the Romans took away the Jewish State and Civill government yet their Church did remain 5. The government of the State and the constitution thereof was not the same under the Judges under the Kings and after the captivity shall we therefore say that the Church was altered and new moulded as oft as the Civill government was changed 6. Learned Master Selden hath rightly observed that those Proselytes who were called Prosiliti justitiae though they were initiated into the Jewish Religion by Circumcision Baptisme and Sacrifice and were free not only to worship God apart by themselves but also to come into the Church or Congregation of the Israelites and did get to themselvs the name of Jews yet were restrained and debarred from Dignities Magistracies and preferments as also from some marriages which were permitted to the Israelites He addeth a simile of strangers initiated and associated into the Church of Rome who yet have not the priviledge of Roman Citizens whence we gather most apparently a distinction of the Jewish Church and the Jewish State for as much as those Proselytes were imbodied into the Iewish Church and as Church-members did communicate in the holy ordinances of God yet they were not properly members of the Iewish State nor admitted to Civil privileges Civilian But I find no censure nor punishment of offences in the Iewish Church except what the Civill power did inflict no such censure as excommunication or separation from the Temple Synagoue or ordinances And since you have cited Master Selden for you I will cite him against you for he saith in his late Book that hee who was separate or excommunicated among the Jewes was not excluded from the Temple Sacrifices or holy Assemblies but only debarred from the liberty of Civill worship so that he might not sit within foure cubits of off his companion or neighbour Divine I shall doe M. Selden so much right as to appeal from him to himself for in another place where he writeth at greater length of the Jewish excommunication he describeth it to have been a separation not only from the former civill commerce and company in regard of that distance of foure cubits but also from communicating together in prayer and holy Assemblies And that it was so it is not only the most received opinion of Protestant Divines but even of those who have devoted themselves to the study of the Jewish Antiquities such as Drusius Iohannes Couh L'Empereur and others Brughton also in his Exposition of the Lords prayer pag. 14. c. tells us that the Jewish Church and the Apostolike Church though they differed about traditions and about the Messiah yet for government they agreed He giveth instance in these particulars the rulers of the Synagogue the readers of the Law and the Prophets the qualities of a Bishop or Elder the providing for the poor the maner of excommunication and absolution the laws to bridle Elders from Tyranny All these are the same in both saith he Now these men were most exquisitely acquainted with those studies and their Testimonies may serve instead of many more that may be added Hereunto that distinction of 3. kinds of excommunication received from Elias in Thesbyte Niddui Herem Sammatha whether we understand as some doe that Niddui was a separation according to the ceremoniall law and Herem the devoting of one to death and capitall punishment or whether we distinguish betwixt Niddui Herem which two only are mentioned in the law as we use to doe betwixt excommunicatio minor and major which is the opinâ—on of others Civiliaâ—. It may be there was a separation or ejection from the Temple Synagogue
causing their children to goe through the fâ—re as a sacrifice to their God Molech all these though murthers yeâ—â—re done for Conscience sake men being perswaded in their conscience that they are doing good service to God as it is said of those that killed the Apostles What say you to that case shall the punishment of those be persecution for the cause of Coâ—science 5. I cannot marvell enough that it should be heard from the moâ—th of any Christian that the Magistrate is to pun sh injuries done to the State but not injuries done to the Churâ—h that he is to punish those who destroy mens bodies but not those that destroy mens soules that whosoever will draw away people from the obedience of the Magistrate and of the law of the Land must not be suffered but they who will draw away people from the truth of the Gospel and from the wayes of God such as Hymeneus and Philetus who overthrow the faith of some and their word will eat as doth a canker must escape unpunished And so Christian Magistrates and States shall take up the maxime which Tacitus tells was holden by Tyberius Caesar Deorum injurias Diis cura esse but for their part they shall stand by as Gallio did and care for none of those things Be astonished at this O ye heavens Civilian But in the meane time I can tell you one thing that it is a mighty prejudice that lies in the mindes of many against the Prysbetery that tyranny and rigour doe accompany it And this now bringeth into my minde some other prejudices I have seene a Booke come from Oxford entituled An Answer by Letter to a worthy Gentleman who desired of a Divine some reasons by which it might appeare how inconsistent Presbyteriall Government is with Monarchy In which I finde many things which breed an Odium of that Government Among other things it tells me that this is one of the Articles of the Presbyterian faith No Minister preaching in Publike sedition or Treason or railing at King Councell the Prince Iudges is accountable or punishable by King Parliament Councell or any Indicature whatsoever But from all hee may appeale to the Sanhedrum or Consistory as the sole and proper competent Iudge And as if this were a small thing not to subject to the Magisteate they will have the Magistrate subject to them insomuch that they may excommunicate the Magistrate even the King himselfe if he obey them not That the Presbytery hindereth the liberty of trade and commerce disgraceth and desameth young women for conversing familiarly with men suffereth not Land-Lords to sue for their rents and the like That they bring all cases and causes under their cognition and judgement sub formalitate scandali under the notion of scandall and for the glory of God It tells also a number of Stories and practicall examples for confirmation of those particulars What say you to that Divine I have seen and read the book which surely was written by the speciall inspiration of the father of lies that the â—mple people who never yet sawe a Presbytery may be made afraid of it as of some hellish monster as the French Friars made the people beleeve that the Hugonots were ugly monsters with Swines faces and Asses eares But men of understanding will not be taken with such bold and shamelesse calumnies as come from the pen of that son of Belial I could name both the Author and the lying Records of a persecuting Prelate whence he borrowed his stories in which there are many known untruths and where there is any truth in the matters of fact which he relates there is such addition of his own Interpretations of mens actions such variation of circumstances and such concealing of the true grounds ends and circumstances of such actions as maketh them to appear quite another thing then they were And if his stories of the speeches actions or opinions of particular men were all true as they are not yet how doth that prove that Presbyteriall government is inconsistent with Monarchy Magistracie Laws Trading Peace c. This must be proved from the principles or necessarie concomitants of Presbyteriall government not from the actions or speeches of this or that private man especially they having so said or done not in any reference to Presbyteriall Government but occasionally in reference to such or such persons or purposes As now if I should rake up the dunghill of all the Treasons Conspiracies Oppressions Persecutions Adulteries Blasphemies Heresies Atheisticall opinions Superstitions Prophanities of such or such Prelates of which the Histories of former times and late experience are full and thence conclude that Episcopall government is inconsistent with Monarchy with the safety of the Kingdome with the liberty of the Subject with the peace of the Church with piety c. Surely that same Author would be ready to answer me that this must be proved from their received principles nor from particular practises Now that Ministers preaching Treason or committing any other trespasse punishable by the law of the land is not to be judged by the Civill Magistrate nor any Civill Court but may appeale from all these to the Ecclesiasticall Judicatory is none of our principles but it is a Popish and Prelaticall usurpation as appeareth by the Brittish Ecclesiasticall constitutions collected by Spelâ—â—an So that the Oxfordian missed his mark extreamly when he charged it upon Presbyterians who hold that Ministers are as much subject unto and as punishable by the Magistrate as any other of the Subjects And as Ministers are subject to every ordinance of man so we suppose the Christian Magistrate will not take it ill to be subject to all the ordinances of Jesus Christ I shall give you a short but clear account of our judgement concerning both these in the words of the second book of the Discipline of the Church of Scotland Chap. 1. As Ministers are subject to the judgement and punishment of the Magistrate in externall things if they offend so ought the Magistrates to submit themselves to the Discipline of the Church if they transgresse in matters of Câ—â—science and Religion And lest you should think this proper to the Classicall and Synodicall government M. Cotton will tell you it is just so in the Congregationall government of the keyes of the Kingdome of heaven pag. 53. As the Church saith he is subject to the sword of the Magistrate in things which concerne the Civill Peace so the Magistrate if Christian is subject to the keyes of the Church in matters which concerne the peace of his conscience and the Kingdom of heaven The latter cannot bee denied in thesi no more then the former and when it comes to the Hypothesis there is much to bee trusted to the prudence and discretion of Pastors and ruling Elders and when all comes to all the failing is more like to be in the defect then in the excesse But to say that a