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A66383 The case of lay-communion with the Church of England considered and the lawfulness of it shew'd from the testimony of above an hundred eminent non-conformists of several perswasions. Williams, John, 1636?-1709. 1683 (1683) Wing W2691; ESTC R1501 57,793 83

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be_v stint_v and_o prescribe_v he_o can_v have_v no_o assurance_n but_o that_o some_o error_n in_o matter_n and_o form_n will_v be_v commit_v so_o m_n r_o ball_n one_o man_n be_v of_o opinion_n 13●_n that_o a_o prescribe_a form_n be_v better_a than_o another_o another_o that_o a_o prescribe_a form_n be_v unlawful_a etc._n etc._n in_o these_o case_n if_o the_o least_o error_n do_v stain_v the_o prayer_n to_o other_o that_o they_o may_v not_o lawful_o join_v together_o with_o who_o shall_v the_o faithful_a join_v at_o all_o be_v not_o this_o to_o fill_v the_o conscience_n with_o scruple_n and_o the_o church_n with_o rent_n 95._o such_o as_o these_o must_v if_o they_o will_v be_v true_a to_o their_o own_o principle_n renounce_v communion_n with_o all_o the_o world_n 47._o and_o be_v like_o those_o that_o m_o r_o baxter_n tell_v we_o he_o know_v that_o never_o communicate_v with_o any_o church_n nor_o ever_o public_o hear_v or_o pray_v or_o worship_n god_n at_o all_o because_o they_o 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be_v the_o general_a opinion_n of_o the_o old_a nonconformist_n thus_o say_v a_o late_a writer_n who_o though_o he_o be_v unwilling_a to_o grant_v that_o they_o do_v own_o the_o national_a church_n to_o be_v a_o true_a church_n yet_o do_v admit_v as_o he_o needs_o must_v at_o least_o that_o they_o do_v own_o the_o several_a parish_n or_o congregation_n in_o england_n to_o be_v true_a church_n both_o in_o respect_n of_o their_o constitution_n and_o also_o in_o respect_n of_o their_o doctrine_n and_o worship_n and_o that_o there_o be_v in_o they_o no_o such_o intolerable_a corruption_n as_o that_o all_o christian_n shall_v fly_v from_o they_o and_o even_o those_o that_o be_v in_o other_o respect_v opposite_a enough_o to_o the_o church_n do_v so_o declare_v 178._o it_o be_v say_v mr._n baxter_n the_o parish_n church_n that_o have_v the_o liturgy_n 49._o which_o mr._n h._n jacob_n the_o father_n of_o the_o congregational_a party_n write_v for_o communion_n with_o against_o fr._n johnson_n and_o in_o respect_n to_o which_o be_v call_v they_o separatist_n against_o who_o he_o write_v the_o same_o i_o may_v say_v of_o mr._n bradshaw_n dr._n ames_n and_o other_o nonconformist_n who_o the_o congregational_a brethren_n think_v be_v favourable_a to_o their_o way_n and_o if_o we_o will_v hearken_v to_o the_o abovesaid_a author_n he_o say_v again_o and_o again_o 117._o that_o the_o general_a sense_n of_o the_o present_a nonconformist_n both_o minister_n and_o people_n be_v that_o the_o parish_n of_o england_n general_o be_v true_a church_n both_o as_o to_o the_o matter_n of_o they_o the_o people_n be_v christian_n and_o as_o to_o the_o form_n their_o minister_n be_v true_a minister_n such_o as_o for_o their_o doctrine_n and_o manner_n deserve_v not_o to_o be_v degrade_v but_o leave_v he_o shall_v be_v think_v to_o incline_v to_o one_o side_n i_o shall_v produce_v the_o testimony_n of_o such_o as_o be_v of_o the_o congregational_a way_n
a_o duty_n on_o a_o believer_n that_o he_o disjoin_v and_o separate_v himself_o from_o such_o a_o church_n and_o they_o give_v this_o reason_n for_o it_o that_o then_o they_o must_v separate_v from_o all_o church_n 102._o so_o m_n r_o baxter_n etc._n etc._n be_v it_o not_o a_o high_a degree_n of_o pride_n to_o conclude_v 65._o that_o almost_o all_o christ_n church_n in_o the_o world_n for_o these_o thirteen_o hundred_o year_n at_o least_o to_o this_o day_n 138._o have_v offer_v such_o worship_n unto_o god_n 224._o as_o that_o you_o be_v oblige_v to_o avoid_v it_o and_o that_o almost_o all_o the_o catholic_n church_n on_o earth_n this_o day_n be_v below_o your_o communion_n for_o use_v form_n and_o that_o even_a calvin_n and_o the_o presbyterian_o cartwright_n hildersham_n and_o the_o old_a nonconformist_n be_v unworthy_a your_o communion_n i_o know_v there_o be_v several_a objection_n against_o form_n of_o prayer_n but_o i_o know_v also_o that_o these_o be_v answer_v by_o they_o but_o since_o the_o most_o common_a be_v that_o of_o quench_v and_o stint_v the_o spirit_n i_o shall_v brief_o give_v their_o sense_n of_o it_o they_o say_v 223._o 1._o to_o say_v that_o person_n shall_v use_v no_o set_a form_n but_o pray_v as_o move_v by_o the_o spirit_n be_v a_o fond_a error_n 83._o 2._o they_o say_v that_o the_o spirit_n instruct_v we_o what_o to_o ask_v not_o in_o what_o phrase_n of_o speech_n it_o stir_v up_o in_o we_o holy_a desire_n but_o give_v not_o ability_n sudden_o and_o without_o help_n to_o express_v and_o lay_v open_a our_o heart_n in_o fit_a method_n and_o significant_a word_n ability_n of_o speech_n be_v a_o common_a gift_n of_o the_o spirit_n which_o the_o lord_n bestow_v upon_o good_a and_o bad_a etc._n etc._n 91._o 3._o that_o the_o measure_n of_o the_o spirit_n stand_v not_o in_o word_n and_o form_n but_o in_o fervent_a sigh_n and_o groan_n ibid._n 4._o that_o there_o be_v nothing_o let_v but_o that_o in_o such_o form_n the_o hearer_n heart_n may_v profitable_o go_v with_o the_o same_o both_o to_o humble_v to_o quicken_v and_o to_o comfort_v and_o d_o r_o owen_n can_v deny_v but_o that_o they_o may_v be_v for_o edification_n 232._o and_o that_o person_n in_o the_o use_n of_o they_o may_v have_v communion_n with_o god_n 5._o they_o say_v that_o the_o scripture_n insist_v upon_o in_o this_o case_n be_v ground_v upon_o mistake_n and_o be_v misapply_v as_o m_n r_o tomb_n in_o particular_a have_v clear_o manifest_v 238._o four_o i_o shall_v consider_v what_o their_o opinion_n be_v as_o to_o the_o english_a liturgy_n or_o common_a prayer_n both_o as_o to_o the_o liturgy_n itself_o and_o communion_n in_o it_o as_o to_o the_o liturgy_n itself_o it_o be_v acknowledge_v 1._o that_o the_o matter_n for_o the_o most_o part_n be_v good_a 312._o sound_a and_o divine_a and_o that_o there_o be_v not_o any_o doctrinal_a passage_n in_o any_o of_o the_o prayer_n 59_o that_o may_v not_o bear_v a_o good_a construction_n and_o so_o amen_o may_v be_v say_v to_o it_o 25._o as_o d_o r_o bryan_n with_o other_o do_v maintain_v 2._o that_o as_o no_o church_n for_o this_o 1400_o year_n have_v be_v without_o its_o public_a form_n 35._o so_o we_o be_v the_o best_a so_o the_o old_a nonconformist_n compare_v the_o doctrine_n 12._o prayer_n rite_n at_o those_o time_n throughout_o in_o use_n in_o the_o church_n with_o we_o and_o in_o all_o these_o bless_a be_v the_o name_n of_o the_o lord_n we_o be_v more_o pure_a than_o they_o and_o it_o be_v not_o much_o short_a that_o we_o find_v in_o m_o r_o baxter_n in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o present_a nonconformist_n 101._o 3._o that_o which_o be_v account_v faulty_a be_v tolerable_a and_o hinder_v not_o but_o that_o its_o acceptable_a to_o god_n and_o edify_v to_o pious_a and_o well-disposed_a person_n tolerable_a so_o m_n r_o corbet_n 2._o the_o worship_n contain_v in_o the_o liturgy_n may_v lawful_o be_v partake_v in_o it_o be_v find_v for_o substance_n in_o the_o main_a 158._o and_o the_o mode_n thereof_o be_v laudable_a in_o divers_a form_n and_o order_n and_o passable_a in_o the_o most_o though_o in_o some_o offensive_a inconvenient_a or_o less_o perfect_a acceptable_a to_o god_n so_o the_o old_a nonconformist_n 13._o in_o they_o that_o join_v with_o the_o prayer_n according_a to_o christ_n command_n and_o liberty_n of_o absence_n from_o christ_n have_v not_o be_v show_v notwithstanding_o the_o corruption_n we_o hold_v the_o prayer_n to_o be_v a_o holy_a acceptable_a sacrifice_n to_o god_n etc._n etc._n edify_v to_o well-disposed_a person_n to_o this_o purpose_n m_o r_o hildersham_n 224._o m_o r_o rogers_n etc._n etc._n and_o according_o m_o r_o corbet_n profess_v his_o own_o experience_n 1._o though_o i_o judge_v their_o form_n of_o worship_n to_o be_v in_o many_o respect_v less_o perfect_a than_o be_v desire_v yet_o i_o have_v find_v my_o heart_n spiritual_o affect_v and_o raise_v towards_o god_n therein_o and_o more_o especial_o in_o receive_v the_o lord_n supper_n i_o judge_v this_o form_n may_v be_v use_n formal_o by_o the_o formal_a 105._o and_o spiritual_o by_o those_o that_o be_v spiritual_a it_o be_v my_o part_n to_o make_v the_o best_a of_o it_o be_v the_o establish_v form_n as_o to_o communion_n in_o the_o liturgy_n it_o be_v grant_v 1._o that_o there_o be_v no_o cause_n to_o renounce_v it_o or_o the_o communion_n of_o the_o church_n for_o it_o 3._o and_o that_o so_o to_o do_v be_v a_o sin_n 121._o 2._o that_o all_o the_o reform_a church_n in_o christendom_n do_v common_o profess_v to_o hold_v communion_n with_o the_o english_a church_n in_o the_o liturgy_n if_o they_o come_v among_o we_o where_o it_o be_v use_v 68_o 5._o 3._o it_o be_v declare_v on_o the_o part_n of_o the_o old_a nonconformist_n 364._o that_o they_o ordinary_o and_o constant_o use_v the_o communion-book_n in_o their_o public_a ministration_n 155._o and_o that_o the_o people_n general_o be_v in_o their_o day_n satisfy_v in_o it_o 14._o and_o for_o the_o present_a it_o be_v declare_v we_o can_v lawful_o not_o only_a hear_v common-prayer_n 157._o but_o read_v it_o ourselves_o 7._o 152._o i_o shall_v not_o trouble_v the_o reader_n with_o the_o several_a objection_n against_o the_o liturgy_n and_o the_o answer_v return_v to_o they_o by_o the_o old_a and_o present_a nonconformist_n but_o shall_v content_v myself_o with_o that_o which_o it_o seem_v be_v much_o insist_v upon_o in_o the_o day_n of_o m_o r_o ball_n and_o their_o reply_n to_o it_o object_n the_o liturgy_n in_o the_o whole_a matter_n and_o form_n thereof_o be_v too_o like_a unto_o the_o mass-book_n answ._n if_o the_o liturgy_n be_v antichristian_a it_o be_v so_o either_o in_o respect_n of_o the_o matter_n or_o of_o the_o form_n not_o of_o the_o matter_n for_o that_o which_o proper_o belong_v to_o antichrist_n the_o foul_a and_o gross_a error_n be_v purge_v out_o not_o of_o the_o form_n for_o order_n and_o phrase_n of_o speech_n be_v not_o proper_o antichristian_a 2._o that_o the_o english_a liturgy_n be_v gather_v according_a to_o the_o ancient_n the_o pure_a of_o they_o 155._o 14._o and_o be_v not_o a_o collection_n out_o of_o the_o mass-book_n but_o a_o refine_n of_o that_o liturgy_n which_o heretofore_o have_v be_v stain_v with_o the_o mass_n 310._o etc._n etc._n and_o be_v not_o a_o translation_n of_o the_o mass_n but_o a_o restitution_n of_o the_o ancient_a liturgy_n 281._o thus_o say_v that_o learned_a person_n and_o much_o more_o to_o who_o many_o other_o do_v likewise_o consent_v and_o in_o this_o mr._n tomb_n be_v so_o zealous_a that_o he_o conclude_v 102._o i_o can_v but_o judge_v that_o either_o much_o ignorance_n or_o much_o malice_n it_o be_v that_o make_v any_o traduce_v the_o english_a common-prayer_n book_n as_o if_o it_o be_v the_o popish_a mass-book_n or_o as_o bad_a as_o it_o and_o to_o deter_v man_n from_o join_v with_o those_o prayer_n and_o service_n therein_o which_o be_v good_a as_o if_o it_o be_v join_v with_o antichrist_n the_o pope_n when_o they_o can_v hardly_o be_v ignorant_a that_o the_o martyr_n in_o queen_n mary_n '_o s_z day_n be_v burn_v for_o it_o be_v impudent_a falsehood_n have_v thus_o far_o consider_v the_o form_n i_o shall_v now_o §_o 3_o proceed_v to_o show_v what_o their_o opinion_n be_v of_o the_o gesture_n require_v in_o lay-communion_n such_o as_o kneel_v at_o the_o sacrament_n and_o stand_v up_o at_o the_o creed_n and_o gospel_n as_o to_o kneel_v 1._o it_o be_v grant_v that_o the_o posture_n in_o the_o sacrament_n be_v not_o determine_v so_o mr._n baxter_n 616._o i_o never_o yet_o hear_v anything_o to_o prove_v kneel_v unlawful_a there_o be_v no_o word_n of_o god_n for_o or_o against_o any_o gesture_n 2._o it_o be_v grant_v whatever_o the_o gesture_n of_o our_o saviour_n in_o it_o be_v yet_o that_o do_v