A DISCOVRSE OF THE CONFERENCE HOLDEN before the French King at Fontain-bleau betweene the L. Bishop of Eureux and Munsieur du Plessis L. of Mornay the 4. of May 1600. Concerning certaine pretended corruptions of Authors cyted by the sayd Munsieur du Plessis in his booke against the Masse Faithfully translated out of the French LONDON Printed by E. A. for Mathew Selman and William Ferbrand and are to be solde in Fleete-streete next the Inner Temple gate 1600. A true discourse of the conference held at Fontaine-Bleau the 4. of May. 1600. SInce that the Lord Bishop of Eureux perswadeth himself that the dishonor and ouerthrowe of the Doctrine Preached in the reformed Churches of the Realmes of Fraunce Almaine England Scotand Denmarke Swethen and Poand c. Dependeth on the confutation of the Lord Plessis booke written vpon the Sacrament of the Eucharist which doctrine is maintained by this book as it may be gathered froÌ„ his priuate letters to the L. Plesâ—is As if the Ministers of all the Kingdomes in this last endeuour had put all their heads into one body to be cut off by this new Hercules returned from hel And sith for hauing onely deflowred certaine places of the said book he boasteth of the victory causeth Te Deum to be sung in euery place Let no man blame vs if by this our writing wee oppose the truth against those falshoods which haue beene published since we are thereunto bound by the duety which we owe vnto God and for the instruction of his people Truth it is that since L. Plessis booke of the institution of the Sacrament was published some haue found out no other meanes to trauerse the course thereof then by publishing both in word and writing that the places by him alleadged as wel of holy Scripture as the Fathers were falcified yeelding sufficient testimony by this their sinister subtilty that his allegations auerred iustified the doctrine he professed should be both cleare certaine and inpugnable Neuerthelesse he patiently endured this slaunder partly endeuouring himselfe to ouer-throw it by his answeres partly trusting that of it selfe at last it would giue place to verity Vntill he had intelligence that the bruite thereof had come to the Kings eares yea and got so great creadit as he verily beleeued it Wherupon agreeued yea that iustly he desired that hee might come to his iustification And for that there were some that laboured to diuert certaine Gentlemen of the religion vnder this pretext he tooke occasion to request the L. Bishop of Eureux by a priuate letter that both of them might ioyne together in a most humble petition to his Maiesty that it might please him to appoint Commissaries before whome the booke might be therby examined to whom in especially he addressed himselfe because the said Bishop was the principall author of the said euill report wrote ordinarily to his friends in disgrace of the said L. of Plessis by certain his suffragans published the same from house to house as it were from doore to doore By this meanes the L. of Plessis promised himselfe that the said L. Bishop vpon this priuate letter sent vnto him by the handes of his brother would without any further trouble repayre to Paris wheras by accord of both parties his Maiesty might ordaine such a one of his Priuy counsell as he thought most fitte to deliuer him a true report of their conference In which case the matter being manadged with this silence and discreation his Maiesty might haue no other interest then the knowledge of the truth A care worthy of so a great King and the tytle which he beares to know aswell the good as the euill fayth of a seruitour accused of falshood before him a cryme alwayes haynous but more haynous in respect of the subiect being matter of Conscience and Diuinity Contrariwise the said Lord Bishop tooke a quite opposite course ratling out vppon this priuate and modest letter a publique and insolent booke which he caused to be Imprinted in his owne house and published at Paris by which of this perticuler controuersie he made a publique quarrell and of two persons two factions calling all the Catholique Romaine Church to warrant interressing the King in all that he might in this cause and principally to diswade the examining of the booke proposed by the Lord of Plessis whose iustification he knew too well that he could not ouer-throw For which cause hee articled falsely against the said booke to draw vnto himselfe the tytle and quallity of a Plaintife and vndertooke to approoue in presence of his Maiesty fiue hundred heynous and grose errours manifest and without Hiperbole yea such sayth he as they may be iudged by the onely looking on vpon the opening of the booke without entring into the iudgement of the sence And notwithstanding he offered himselfe further besides that to make it appeare that there was not in that book one onely place but was eyther falsely impertinently or vnprofitably alleaged These were the very wordes which the reader may note vpon what ground hee generally taxed the whole booke To this booke notwithstanding the L. of Plessis in respect of the King and according to his owne nature answered with great modesty reuealing the matter as much as in him lay from a publique to a perticuler triall twixt the Bishop and himselfe from partyes by him pretended to their seuerall persons So that by some this same simplicity of his answere was scarce wel interpreted But for that he knew that the sayd L. Bishop had sent a Coppy of that which he had published and written with aduantage enough vpon the same subiect to his Maiesty he was counsailed likewise to write vnto him beseeching him most humbly to vouchsafe to enter into the approbation of his sayd book by the grant of certayne Commissaries of sufficient knowledge that might haue the charge to examine the same from the one ende to the other in publishing whereof he protested that he aymed at no other end but to prepare his subiects heartes and make them capable of the seede of so holy a reformation in his time The Doctors of Sorbonne likewise were sodainely incensed against this proposition apprehending a serious examination of this booke and perceiuing well in theyr consciences that it could not take effecte but to their domage and indignity They appointed certaine Deligates amongst them to make relation hereof to the popes Nuncio who fore-seeing too wel to what inconuenience it might tend sought out the King to certifie him hereof Beseeching his Maiesty that it might passe no further and laying before his eyes the issue therof Annexing alwaies to all that he had vrged most instant complaints against the Author and the booke But hereupon there were some that assured him that the matter should be carried with such Art with such aduantage for the Church of Rome as the Pope could not but content himselfe therewith and namely in these wordes
lost the night before to continue the next morning had not God in the night time sent him a great weakenesse of the stomacke with extraordinary vomits not without a Feuer Vpon which accident the Lord of Riuier the Kinges chiefe Phisition counsailed him to haue speedy recourse to some remedyes And therefore the L. of Ples most humbly besought his Maiesty to holde him excused during this sicknessâ— Whereupon the next day the Presidents of Thou Pythou Casaubon and Maâ—tin were lycensed to depart Heere let all such as haue seene the Lord of Eureux writing or heard him speake in company remember whether hee hath produced any thing answerable eyther to theyr conceipt or to his owne speeches to their hope or to his promises For where are these heynous litterall occulary falsehoods and vntruthes which might bee discerned at the first opening of the bookes and found at the first sight Contrariwise which one place is there amongst them all where they were not driuen to enter very farre into the sence of the text and right before they could assesse iudgement Yet in the meane time vppon these great wordes who was not purposed to see the Authors falsely alleaged the supposed places set downe vpon pleasure to deceiue the people Yet who can doubt but that these sixty places by him presented whâ—se force was to bee perceaued in these nyne are the chiefest wherin hee expected greatest adâ—auntage â—ith bee placed them in the fore fronte of his battle and in them chosen from among 5000. or more with so great leasure and labour both of himselfe and others he had reposed his pretended victory Now to come without passion to the very matter what hath he gotten or rather what hath hee not lost with all sound iudgementes in the examination of these places For what one falsehood is there eyther judged or to be iudged among these nyne Or may in some one of them the omission of some word for the most part indifferent with men of iudgement bee of any force against the Author the booke or any part of the booke Yet let vs yeild them what they can aske in these places whereof notwithstanding our selues without contradiction doe retayne the best and chiefe part these places picked out heere and there and in euery place can they relieue Transubstantiation the inuocation of Saynts the worshipping of Images ouerthrowen throughout the course of the whole booke by the authoritye of the Scriptures the practise of the Primatiue Church and the consent of the most notable Fathers Scot Durand and such like who are not alleaged according to the phrase of the Pallace but cumulatiuè as it were to make vp measure which crossed out would bee no weakening to the booke or kept make it not the stronger these are they from whome they hoped for the raysing againe of their Masse for the proofe of Transubstantiation in the Masse notwithstanding argued beaten and ouerthrowen by themselues if they durst haue stood to it And the like let vs say of the most part of the rest Who therefore cannot see that where hee seeketh to make most best of his force he hath made most demonstration of his weaknesse where hee looked to haue bleamished the sinceritye of his aduersaty hee hath caused it to breake foorth and to shine more cleare and bright Surely for wee may say it truely there was neuer Booke eyther in our age or in the formerages no not the quoyne in the generall essayes examined so seuerely or putto so rygorous tryall And yet when they that haue been made drunke with this smoke shall growe sober agayne when they shall bee disposed earnestly to consider what they haue seene what they haue done that the deep wounds which this pretended Goliab promised are lesse then small scratches his blowes with his club lesse then phillips what shall they catch vnlesse by the affected reprehension of friuolous matters they tooke stâ—edfast assurance of the infallible truth of the principals of the most firme of the strongest To speake Lawyer-like what can they iudge but that these slight exceptions haue strengthned the rule as a great man of our age sayd very well It is no good proofe of a matter that there is nothing to be repugned but rather an argument to the contrary that it hath been but superficially looked into but that is wel tryed wherin they reprooue what they may and finde but little to be reprooued Were we to examine with like authority and rigour not the books of their perticuler Doctors but euen their Cannon law theyr decree it selfe confirmed Canonized and verified by the Popes what one distinction shall escape notable falsehoods both in number and without number wherein wee shall not finde the places both of the Fathers counsailes curtalled of their most essentiall words falsified supposed composed vpon pleasure to fit them to the profit authority or doctrine of the Popes For to set downe some example leauing the Donation of Constantine the oath Ego Ludouicus with many others disavowed by the learned In the 3. famous Counsaile at Carthage where S. Augustine was in personâ— the 31. Canon speaketh directly against the vsurpings enterprises of the Church of Rome a Concil Carâ—â—ag 3 c. 31. â—imiliter plaâ—â—ut vt presbiâ—eri diaconi reliqui infetiores clerici in t is quas habent causis si de propriorum Episcoporum iudiciis queraÌ„tur vicini Episâ—opi cos audiâ—nâ— c. Ne appellent ad iudiciuÌ„ quod est extra mare sed ad primares suaruÌ„ proâ—inciarum quemadmoduÌ„ de Episcopiâ—â—â—â—e de sinitâ— eâ—â— Qui autem ad trans marina iudiâ—ia prouocant a nullo in Afâ—iâ—an ad communionem reâ—â—pâ—â—ntâ—r That the Priests shall not appeale to any iudgement beyond the Seas but to the Primates of their owne prouince as the Bishops haue often defined likewise that such as should appeale to any iudgement boyond the Seaâ— should not by any bee receiued into the Communion in Affricke This Cannon employed in the b 〈…〉 Decretall 2. q. 6. Placuit vt presbyâ—eri with what coÌ„science could they adde these words Nisi fortè Romanam sedem appellauerint vnlesse perâ—duenture they appeale to the Sâ—â— of Rome which viterly ouerthroweth the meaning of the Counsell In the 73. Canon it was said c Concil ciuâ—dem c. 73. Placuit vt Presbyteri Episeopi Diaconi propriis terminis etiam a suis absâ—niant â—xoribus quod nisi fecerint Ecclesiastico ordine moueantur It hath seemed good that the Priestes Bishops Deacons in their proper turnes should abstaine euen from theyr wiues Wherein it appeareth that they were maried notwithstanding theyr orders kept their wiues but as their course came about to serue they did abstaine according likewise to the Canon of the sixt Counsaile With what credite haue they inserted it into the decrees d C. Plaâ—â—â—â—t dist 32. d. 32. Cha. Placuit cutting of these wordes Propriis terminis in their proper
turnes in the course of their seruice which make the whole sence to bring in single liâ—e insteed of marriage S. Augustine likewise declaring which were Canonicall Scriptures whereupon euery Christians faith should depend sayd e August de doctr Christ lib. 2. c. 8. In Canonicis autâ—n Scripturis Ecclesâ—arum Catholicatum quamplurium sequatur auctoritaâ—em inter quas sanâ— illae sunt quae Apostolica â—â—edes hâ—bere Epistolas accipere merueâ—unt Tenebitigitur hune moduÌ„ in Scripturis Canonicis vt eas quae ab omnibus accipiantur Ecclesiis Catholicis praeponat eis quas quaedam non accipiunt c. In the Canonâ—cal Scriptures of the Churches let them follow the authoritie of the most part among the which namely Churches those indeed are which haue deserued eyther to be the Seas of the Apostles or to receiue Epistles as Rome Ephesus Corinthus Thessolonica c. to presâ—r those that all the Catholike Churches do receiue before such as some doe not receuie c. With what shamelessenes could they cyte this place in these wordes f In Canonicis dist 19 Inter quas fane â—llae sint quas Aposlolica sedes habere ab ea alii meruerunt accipâ—re Epistolas c. Among which indeed let those be which the Apostolike Sea hath deserued to receiue and which the other Churches haue deserued or had the fauour to receiue from her So to make S. Augustine who neuer thought of it to Canonize the Decretals of all the Popes and that euen by quoting this Cannon by name out of S. Augustin 2. booke de Doctrina Christiana To bee short g In summario supradicti Canonis ciusd dist 19. Inter Canonicas Scripturas Decretales Epistolae connumerantur The Decretall Epistles are accounted among the Canonicâ—ll Scriptures falsehoodes indeed truely litteral indeed destroyers of the sence such indeed as the L. of Eur. did promise not such as he did produce And of this quote only in the decree we may shew them whole hundreds whole Chiliadeâ—â— to stand vpon the very termes of the Lord of Eureux of persect tale without amplification The like may we say of the Master of the sentences whome the Schoolemen haue taken for theyr text of all their commentaries for the argument of all their studies at euery fields length corrupting the places of the Fathers to accommodate them to the doctrine of his time And in three leaues that the L. of Eu. hath put to printing in all his life how may it then bee in these great volumes hee cannot scape free from the like cryme Thus haue you heard the true proceedings history of this Conference which I was forced to set downe because the people were brought into a wrong immagination vnder colour of the coppy of a certaine letter that was printed and published all about read in the Pulpits and distributed through all the parrishes in the Realme euen so farre foorth that the L. of Ples comming to Saumur found there aboue 100. Coppies part printed at Teurs part coppyed by the commaundement of some of the bench by all the notaryes in the towne whereby the inhabitantes began to murmure one against another It is therefore but a sinall matter to let the L. of Eur. flye passe for an Elephant and an illusion that shall goe Truth will ouercome in a short time But let his Maiesty in discretion take order that this sparke cast out at aduenture and husbanded contrary to his meaning by the enemies of quietnes proceed not to a fire of sedition among his people And God of his grace grant him long to Raigne in all felicity and peace to his glory and the quiet of the kingdome Amen FINIS
perceiue a match made hee could well enough brooke any condition but that he must needes be blinde if hee could not perceiue the same throughout the whole progresse of this matter Likewise that that was the onely cause that hee stood so stedfast vpon his demaund As for the examining of his booke behinde his backe so as it might bee duely performed in his absence the more should bee his honour if vnduely the lesse reproach as also such as should haue charge should beare the greater burden as well in honour as conscience Neuerthelesse that all the world might see that hee proceeded beyond all reason onely vpon a desire that his Maiesty might bee the more plainely enformed of his sincerity and iustice hee deliuered a fourth proposition which in writing hee deliuered to the L. Chauncelor to this effect That he would bee content that the L of Eureux should consigne into the handes of the Presidents of Thou Calignos eyther of the President Thou only because Calignos was sicke his 5. hundred pretended vntruthes to the ende that dayly hee might in hys Maiesties presence answere vnto fifty of them according to the order of the booke that so much the more easily he might prepare himselfe for those that follow with condition likewise that vpon the breaking off of this coÌ„ference the same might be returned into the hands of the Lord Plessis The which proposition the sayd L. Chauncelor receiued to report thereof to his Maiesty thereof to giue him answere This matter thus reported to the King vpon Wednesday morning the 3. of May and consunation holden with the Lord of Eureux they procured the King to bee incensed vpon this that the sayd Lord of Plessâ—s required that the fiue hundred pretended vntruths should be committed into the hands of my L. the President of Thou That it might content him to haue them committed into his Maiesties hands who had trusted him with greater matters that his enemies had taken no surer gadge then his owne word much rather therefore should a Seruaunt yea euen a housholde seruant thus ouerthrowing the substaunce of his reasons with theyr great words Hereupon the L. of Plessis being sent for into the Gallery at Fontaine-bleau receiued this second decree at the mouth of the L. Chauncellor That he should in the Kings presence aunswere to the places propounded by the Lord of Eureux vpon the opening of his bookes as is aforesayd otherwise that if he would not accept of this condition his Maiesty would cause the booke to be ouer-looked and examined in his absence thereof to determine as he should thinke good And indeed so soone as the L. of Plessis had declared that in regard of his reasons so often propounded he could not depart from his last proposition all the Court was warned to assemble in the great Hall at three of the clocke in the after noone to be present at this examination but it was againe put off vntill the next morning at eyght of the clocke neyther was there all that day any other speech in Court but that they would vppon contumacy proceede with all rygour against both the Author and the booke Many circumstances myght heere be added as tokens of the stomackes of those men that had in this matter vndertaken to satisfie the Pope who also made shew of great commodity to his Maiesty But it may suffice that the same were noted euen by the most passionate who by the proceedinges haue in their mindes weakened the pretended successe throughout the whole course therof Lastly about ten of the clocke at night the Lords of Castelnau of Chambaret came to visite the L. of Plessis and in the Kings name propounded vnto him that the L. of Eureux was resolued to quote vnto him 60. places in his booke whereunto hee should in his Maiesties presence aunswere in the morning at eyght of the clocke The time was short the houre vnfit and the match manifestly made Yet notwithstanding such was Gods will the Lord of Plessis shut his eyes agaynst all these foreseene inconueniences and contrary to hys former resolutions accepted of the condition and to the ende that heereafter the force of the truth may appeare as no doubt it will in that there was nothing omitted that might darken the same and yet in it selfe it will finde brightnesse enough to pierce through all darkenesse About one of the clocke after midnight the Lord of Castelnau brought the 60. places this was but a wasting of hys tyme. About two of the clocke he had the bookes of the Lord Eureux brought him For ye must note that hee had none there the places were quoted simply Carolus Magnus p. 816. Scotus p. 869. Durandus p. 870. c. without note of falsehood and without any explanation The Lord of Plessis neuerthelesse together with the difficulty of his sight doth in hast peruse them to the number of nineteene About sixe of the clocke in the morning the Lord of Eureux redemaundeth his bookes at eyght of the clocke hee is commaunded to appeare Now againe growes another difficulty the Lord of Ples telleth the King that hee had no leasure to peruse any more then nineteene euen such as came first to hand as he light vpon the bookes his Maiesty doubteth whether the Lord of Eureux will proceede he hath reason to the contrary because the Lord of Ples hath chosen to his aduantage Heerto the Lo. of Ples answereth that he had the bookes but 4. houres and that in the night That out of fiue thousand places the Lord of Eur. had chosen threescore such as liked him and that it was very likely that he had produced the most sufficient so that he besought his Maiesty to pardon him albeit he were forced to say that this was more then extraordinary rygour Heerupon held they a consultation with the Lord of Eureux for the space of one houre who in the end accepted of the nineteene places also to affoord him the more leasure the conference was deferred vntil after dinner This was vpon Thursday the 4. of May in the Bath Hall in presence of the King with the assistaunce of the whole Court. To beginne his Maiesty declared that he had no meaning that they should dispute of the Doctrine onely he would they should examine the allegations of the places Then did the Lord Chauncellor proceede who briefly did expound his Maiesties meaning Next the Lord of Eureux who for his argument vndertooke to commend him in that he would not intrude into matter appertayning to the Church And consequently the Lord of Ples who briefely dyd declare that in as much as it was his Maiesties pleasure he was there ready to aunswere for his booke that he neuer writ it vpon any ambitious intent but rather dyuerted him therefro in regard of the preseruing of his Maiesties most gratious fauour And also the zeale for to preuayle during his Raygne for a holy reformation in the Church for
the which many good men had long grieued If to that purpose it might doe any seruice hee should thinke himselfe most happy with whatsoeuer losse otherwise that himselfe could be the first man to wish it burnt yea euen with his own hand Howbeit that he did hope that vpon vpright examination all the world should finde that hee had vsed all sincerity and great diligence albeit it was not greatly to be maruailed that among 5000. places or more there might passe some few wherein his eye his memory or euen his iudgement might waner which yet were such as could be of no importaunce to hurt the truth that he therein handled For savd he were all the bookes of the Doctors of the Romish Church that haue bin written within these hundred yeares as rigorously examined where should wee finde one that could abide the proofe Besides with his Maiesties leaue he protested that this was a perticuler action consequently could not preiudice the Doctrine of the reformed Churches of the Realme which was before him and should be after him and so continue for euer And then did they enter into the matter The first place out of Scotus THe first place that the Lord of Eureux did set vpon The 4. book of the Eucharist c. 9 p. 869. l. 26. of the first edi P. 936. lyne 2. of the 2. edition P. 7â—â— l. 25. of the 3 edition was taken out of the 869 Page lyne 26. of the Lord Plessis booke of the institution of the Eucharist namely within eyght leaues of the ende heere let the reader iudge what methode this is to examme a book according to the first edition in quarto which heer we will follow sauing that we will also in the margent quote the pages of the second or third editioÌ„ where we read these words Iohn Duns called Scot neere a hundred yeares after the counsel of Latran durst bring into question whether Christes body be really contained vnder the formes disputeth that he is not Against which place he pretendeth two matters the one that Scot maketh it not a controuersie whether the body of Christ bee really contained vnder the formes except in like manner as the SchoolemeÌ„ vse to dispute of matters most resolued as Whether there be a God Whether there be but one god c. The other that the L of Ples had taken the opposition for the resolution in both these matters he pretended hainous vntruths To the 1. the L. of Ples aswered that wheras he said that Scot had brought into questioÌ„ Whether the body of christ be really contained vnder the formes he vnderstood it by the way of transubstantiation and his meaning did sufficiently appeare first in that in the Chap which is the ninth of the fourth booke he entreateth of the absurdities contradictions proceeding of the transubstantiation Secondly because in the same it is sayd A hundred yeares after the Councell of Latran that is to say after the Article of transubstantiation was established To the second that albeit the Schoolemen doe dispute their questions in vtramque partem yet doe they withall shew their owne inclination yea sometimes their perticuler resolution sauing that they make it to stoop to the Church of Rome And this did the Lord of Plessis vpholde to appeare in Scot in the de duction of this matter namely where he handleth the second member of this question Qualiter illud est possibile quod creditur How the realty that is beleeued is possible For after many disputations growing to the resolution he vseth these wordes which were shewed to the Lord of Eureux a Scorus printed at Paris by Io. Granion Spon the 4 of the SeÌ„ dist 10. quest 1 pa. 63. b. lit E. Concerning this article it seemeth vnnecessary to haue recourse to the conuersion of the bread into the body of Christ especially considering that euen from the beginning that this matter of the Sacrament was beleeued it was continually beleeued that the body of Christ altereth not out of his place in heauen to be heere and yet was it not thus manifestly beleeued at the beginning of this conuersion as it shall bee sayd dist xi And let the reader note that ouer agaynst this Article that beginneth Quantum ad istum artien'â— nonvidetur necessarium sugiendum esse ad conuersioneÌ„ panâ—s in corpus Christi precipuâ— cuÌ„ a priâ—cipio exquo res imius sacrameÌ„â— fuit credita fuit sempercre ditum quod corpus Christi â—â—n mutatur de loco suo in câ—elo vt sit hic tamen non fuit in principio ita manifeste credituÌ„ de ista conuersione vt dicetar dist 11. Quantum it is quoted in the Margent Resolutio-Scoti Scots resolusion So that by Scots resolution the Church did not alwayes beleeue the conuertion the conuersion is not necessary in the Sacrament Therefore did not the Lord of Plessis in this place take Scots opposition insteed of his resolution And this was gathered very briefe by such as writ for either side namely the Lords of Grigny Pasquier and Vassaut as likewise was all the rest that ensued Howbeit in that which the Lord of Plessis consequently dyd alleage concerning the xi Dist of the 4. booke q. 3. Scots opinion did yet more clearely appeare For after he hath cited Jnnocent the 3. de offic Missae par 3. cap. 26. to prooue three opinions vpon this argument The first b Sâ—ctus in 4. sentent D. 11. qu. 3. fol. 31. lit B. Circa hoc erant tres opiniones Vna quod panis manet tamencuÌ„ ipso vere est corpus Christi Alia quod panis non manet tamen non coÌ„uertitur sed decinit esse vel per annichilationeÌ„ vel per resolutioneÌ„ in materiam vel per corruptioneÌ„ in aliud Tertia quod panis transubstantiatur in corpus vinum in sangumem That the bread remayneth and yet the body of Christ is with the bread The second That the bread remaineth not and yet is not conuerted but ceaseth to be whether by being made nothing whether by being resolued into the first matter or corrupted into any other thing The third That the bread is transubstantiated into the body the wyne into the bloud He consequently commeth to ground the first opinion verye substantially in that hee sayth c 〈…〉 potest 〈◊〉 ista Transubstantiatione That the truth of the Eucharist may be kept without transubstantiatioÌ„ Secondly d Et pancis interâ—ctis Substantia pants cum suis accidentil 〈◊〉 a que potest esse signum si â—ut sola accidentia imò magis quia substantia panis subspeciebus magis est nutrimentum quà m accidentia Ergo magis repraesentat corpus Christi in ratione nutrimenti spiritualis That the bread with the accidents thereof doth rather represent the body of Christ by an anologie of the bodily sustâ—naâ—â—nce with the spirituall then they â—â—oe by the only accidents Thirdly e Et
inconueniences but vpon the same that best agreeeth with the sayings of the Saints and the Ecclesiasticall traditions He is wise enough for saying with the tenure of the holy Scriptures or with the nature of the Sacrament And indeed the Lord of Eur. should haue learned of his Bellarmin that Durand dyd not sufficiently beleeue transubstantiation who in his 3. booke of the Sacrament of the Eucharist Chap. xi hath these words h Bellarm. de Sacram. Euchar. lib. 3. c. 11 Durandus docuit parteÌ„ vnaÌ„ essentialem id est formaÌ„ panis conuerti partem alteraÌ„ id est materiaÌ„ non conuerti Durand hath taught that an essential part of the bread namely the forme is conuerted and that the other part namely the substance is not coÌ„uerted Which he doth expressely confute in the 13. Chapter of his third booke and citeth Durand vpon the 4. booke of sentences Dist 11. q. 3. Heere would our Masters and Commissioners haue referred the iudgement as they had done with the former confessing that the whole question deserued to be read that it might be iudged by the course thereof But then the Lord of Eureux found himselfe agreeued saying that it was in vaine for them to dispute if they wold not iudge sundry tymes speaking to the King to appoynt his pleasure to the sayd Commissioners Whereupon his Maiesty comming vnto them this Article was decided and the Lord Chauncellor pronounced That Durands opposition was alleaged for his resolution Heere let the reader iudge albeit it were so of the wordes of the opposition so playnely repeated in the resolution and Durand speaking no longer in a third person but in his owne person afterward likewise these clauses Durum est Temerarium est Jt is hard It is rash c. Whether in so doubtfull so ticklish so problematticall matter the Lord of Eureux might pretend any haynous vntruthes euen palpably to be iudged at the very opening of the booke at the bare sight thereof where a mans iudgement not his eyes is in daunger of fayling The third place out of Chrisostom vpon the first to the Thessalonians FOr the third they came to a place of Chrisostom vpon the first to the Thessa Hom. 1. Liu 3 de Euchar chap. 11. ed. 1. pa. 5. 7. l. 31. edit 2. p. 538. l. â— ed. 3 p. 498. l. 22. alleaged by the Lord of Plessis in his booke p. 537. li. 31. where hee examineth all the places of Scripture which the aduersaries doe boldely apply to the inuocation of Saints namely this out of Ieremy 15. a Ierem. c. 15. v 1. Si stererint Moyses Samuel coraÌ„ me non est anima mea ad populum istum Though Samuell and Moyses should stand before me yet should not my affection be to this people In which place hauing prooued by S. Hâ—erosme Theodoret S. Gregory Hugo Cardinall yea the glosse it selfe that this place is meant of the intercession of Moses and Samuell when they liued betweene the wrath of God and the sinnes of the people But not of any intercession of the dead Saintes vnto God for the faythfull liuing heere beneath hee withall addeth that heere of Chrisostom gathereth a conclusion cleane contrary to that of the aduersaries namely That wee must not stand vpon the Prayers of the Saints but worke our saluation with feare and trembling Now against this place the Lord of Eureux pretended two thinges The one that the Lord of Plesses had cut him off in the substantiall wordes namely if we be negligent The other that Chrisostom entreated of the intercession of the Saints deceased which the Lord of Plessis denyed To the first the Lord of Plesses aunswered that he alleadged not the expresse wordes of Chrisostom but onely set downe the sence because the discourse contayned twoo or three whole pages which he reduced as it were into a Theses and that indeed he alleaged it after the phrase of the Gramarians Oratione obliqua non recta in an ouerthwart and not direct speech by this word That he c. Therefore that he was not bound to the course of the text To the other that in this allegation he had no other purpose but to shew that Chrisostom out of this place of Ieremy had not gathered as the Church of Rome at this day doth the intercession and inuocation of the deceased Saintes but contrariwise had collected this Doctrine That wee must not generally stand vpon the prayers of the Saintes whether aliue or dead in somme vpon other mens prayers but that we must watch pray and endeuour as the Apostle sayth to make sure our saluation with feare and trembling And indeed that this intent appeared in these words b Chrysostan 1. ad Thessal chap. 1. hoâ— 1. sub fineÌ„ p. 1414 editionts Groeâ— Lat. Hier. CeÌ„melini 1596. Et vt id seras audi Deum dicentem Si steterint Noe Iob Daniel non eripient filios suos filias ruisus Si steterit Moses Samuel Et vide quomodo hoc dicitur duobus Prophetis quoniam ambo pro ipsis togarant noÌ„ eraÌ„t assequuti c. And to the end thou shouldest know namely that the prayers of the Saints doe not profit except we doe conuert and turne vnto God hear what the Lord saith by the Prophet If Noè Iob Daniel stood before me yet should they not saue their Sonnes nor their Daughters And againe Jf Moses and Samuel c. And marke how this is spoken to two Prophets because both of them had prayed but had not obtained c. Thus that this place of Chrisostom was not curtalled neyther could be sith it was but touched by the way and not alleaged Much lesse was it wrested to any contrary sence because generally he speaketh of the prayers of the Saints albeit the examples were of those that are yet conuersant with vs heere beneath Now for the better opening of this point the Lord of Plessis owne words did suffice That we must not stand vpon For what is it to stand vpon but wholy to trust or to relye vpon euen to the exclusion of our owne duety and of all other meanes Hee did then expresse the meaning of Chrisostom that the prayers of the Congregation of the Saints of the faithfull each for other are good are to bee wished But that we should not sleepe vpon them but for our owne parts doe our duetyes Also the course of the text will lead vs thereunto c Et pa. 14. c. 2. Nullus dormiat nullus sit piger ad virtutem Hoc enim est somnus Nescitis quando dormimus quam nostra non sunt in tuto quam facile eis parentur insidiae Quando auteÌ„ vigilamus non opus est nobis tanta custodia Quando dormimus etiam cuÌ„ multa custodia sepe perimus Sunt ostea vectes custodes vigiles tamen fur ingreditur Cur haec dico QuoniaÌ„ si vigilemus non egebimus alioruÌ„