Selected quad for the lemma: book_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	church_n	faith_n	true_a	3,070	5	4.9666	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00791	An answer to a pamphlet, intituled: The Fisher catched in his owne net In vvhich, by the vvay, is shevved, that the Protestant Church was not so visible, in al ages, as the true Church ought to be: and consequently, is not the true Church. Of which, men may learne infallible faith, necessarie to saluation. By A.C.	A. C.; Champney, Anthony, 1569?-1643?, attributed name.; Sweet, John, 1570-1632, attributed name.; Floyd, John, 1572-1649, attributed name.; Fisher, John, 1569-1641, attributed name.	1623 (1623)	STC 10910.4; ESTC S107710	44,806	106

giuen speciall commendations of them far preferred them before his owne Church-men And as the methode which M. Fisher prescribed before the meeting is already shewed to be the fittest that could be for giuing good satisfaction to the old Gentleman and all others so in my opinion both he and M. Sweet did very well to stand as they did constantly to it prudently forseeing when the Aduersary would haue diuerted them from it and warily so answering his his arguments as that for all he could say they would not suffer themselues to be transported from the proposed Question and the prescribed Methode but stil kept the Aduersary to the point would not permit him to diuert either to dispute about Christ or his Apostles or any other point vntill names were giuen in all Ages which was the point demanded and vndertaken The which course they tooke vpon iust and good reason and not for any distrust or diffidence as some Protestants did inconsideratly imagine that they could not defend Christ and his Apostles not to haue beene Protestants or any particular point of those which D. Featly or D. VVhite vnseasonably proposed or any other held in such sense as it is held as a point of fayth by the Catholike Roman Church which they could and would haue defended proued if need had beene or if the meeting had beene intended and appointed for that purpose The reason therefore why M. Fisher might well refuse to enter into such particuler disputes before full Induction of Names were ended was for that this had beene to follow two Hares at once and so to catch neither and to leaue that which was most pertinent to the present Question and which most imported to be decided in the first place as being the ōly thing in which the old Gentleman and many other of the Audience did particulerly expect and desire to be satisfyed and being a most easy and assured meanes to help them to be satisfyed in all other matters in Controuersy without which it is most hard or rather impossible euer to attaine certaine and infallible Resolution in all particular euen most necessary points of fayth as M. Fisher expresely shewed and proued by a sentence aboue cyted out of D. Field A second reason might be for that all disputatiō about particulers before the true Church were by her perpetuall visibility or some such euident marks found out and acknowledged as a sufficient meanes appointed by God to instruct all sorts in matters of fayth and to preserue vnity and determine Controuersyes of fayth would haue beene fruitlesse endlesse Which was the reason why M. Fisher in another former conference had with a certaine Minister would not enter into any particulers vntill he had asked these generall Questions 1. VVhat grounds the Minister would stand vpon The Minister answered Scripture which M. Fisher accepting wrote downe and then asked 2. VVhether he would belieue nothing but expresse wordes of Scripture The Minister answered Yes he would also beleeue a good Consequence out of Scripture This also M. Fisher accepted and wrote downe and further asked 3. If it should happen that the consequence which the Minister should bring should not be thoght good by him and è contra the Consequence brought by him should not be thought good by the Minister who should iudge and end that fruitlesse and otherwise endlesse contention and Controuersy The Minister sayd The Church M. Fisher very willingly accepted and wrote it down 4. asked VVhether after the Church shall haue iudged and decyded such a Controuersy it should be lawfull for any priuate man to oppose his iudgement against that which the Church had so determined As for example when Cutholikes and Arrians hauing alleadged Scriptures and pro and contra brought consequences out of thē about the Diuinity of Christ our Lord The Church in a generall Councell iudged the consequences of Arrians to be naught and those of the Catholikes good The Minister sayd No it was not lawfull for any priuate man to oppose his iudgement against such a Iudgement of the Church These Questions being asked M. Fisher ioyned issue vpon a question bidding the Minister choose what he thought most materiall against Roman Catholikes and let it be tryed whether the Church did iudge for Catholikes or Protestants The Minister did choose the Question about Merits and tooke for his tenet That there was not any Merit of man before God And when the day of tryall came the case was so cleere against the Minister in the ancient Fathers whome the Minister granted to be the Church euen by confession of the Magdeburgians that the Minister had no shift but to diuert the disputation from the substance of the proposed Question to a circumstance of Commutatiue Iustice and that equality betwixt the VVorke and the Reward which is written of by Bellarmine About which circumstance M. Fisher was content to dispute after he had plainely shewed the substance of Merit out of the ancient Fathers Comming therefore to dispute about the aforesayd circumstance of Merit M. Fisher found that there would be no end nor fruit of the argument in regard the ancient Fathers had not spoken of it in expresse tearmes as they had done of the substance of Merit no other visible Church of this present age was agreed on to whose iudgement this matter should be finally referred By which experience M. Fisher hath learned how endlesse and fruitlesse it is to waste wordes about particulers vntill both partyes be agreed which is the true Church not only in ancient tymes but also of this age So as after ech party hath sayd what he can the finall resolution of the Question may be referred to that present Church which hauing without interruption of Pastours and Doctors and without change of doctrine successiuely descended from the true visible Church of anciēt tymes is by this and other Markes proued to be the pre-present true Church whose Iudgment no priuate man must oppose This Question therefore of the continual successiue visible Church being so necessary to end al Controuersies and being now proposed to be treated of betwixt M. Fisher and D. Featly M. Fisher had great reason not to permit speach of any other particular Question vntill by his prescribed Methode he had gotten it clearly seen that the Protestant Church was not and the Catholique Roman Church was the only true Church to whome it pertayneth to giue Iudgment of and determine Controuersies and to instruct all sorts of men in the true Faith and not to permit men by their priuate interpretations of Scripture to wander in errors or wauer in in certain ties or spend their tyme in fruitles and endles disputations about controuerfies of faith It being most certaine that these can neuer be with fruite and fully ended but by the censure of the true visible not only ancient but also present Church which must when doubt is as most often is made tell vs what particuler books be

true bookes of Scripture and Fathers which be true translations and which be right interpretations for both about Scriptures Fathers such Questions may arise and cannot be well decided whout the Iudgement of the true present visible Church in regard Scriptures and Fathers do not alwaies sufficiently expresse what is to be held in the aforesaid Questions neither will one priuate man in such cases follow anothers opinion when ech man will be easily inclined to thinke that he hath as good Scriptures or Fathers or Reasons or all these togeather to plead for the truth of his opinion as another hath for his This reason may be confirmed out of Tertullian who in his golden booke of Prescriptions giueth diuers reasons why Heretikes who reiect the authority of the Church should not be admitted to dispute out of Scriptures First for that by their disputations they weary those that be fame they ouercome those which be weake and those which be in a middle disposition they dism●sse with scruple or doubt Another reason Tertullian giueth because this Heresy doth not receaue some Scriptures or if a receaue it peruerteth them to their owne purpose with additions and detractions and if it receaue some yet not whole or if whole in some sort yet by false expositions it turneth them from the right to a peruerse sense And a peruerse or corrupt sense sayth he is as contrary to truth as is a peruerted or corrupted Text. Tertullian therefore for these reasons iudged best not to make the combat in Scriptures but that this gappe should be stopt and that Heretikes should not be admitted to any disputation of Scriptures and he telleth how this may be done saying It must be examined to whome the possession of Scripture doth belong to the intent that he who hath no right vnto them may not be admitted vnto them And further he sheweth That the right order of thinges requireth that first it only be disputed to whom the Fayth belongeth As if he should say which is the true visible Church VVhose are the Scriptures From whome by whome when and to whome was deliuered that discipliae by which they are made Christians for where there shall appeare the truth of Christian sayth and discipline to be as doubtles it is in the true visible Church of Christ there shal be truth of Scriptures and expositions and al Christian Traditions And hauing shewed how Christ did promulgate his doctrine by the Apostles he further prescribeth That what Christ and his Apostles did preach must be learned no otherwise then by the Churches which they founded so as euery doctrine agreeing with those Apostolicall Mother-Churches that is to be deemed true and what doth not agree to be iudged false And therefore to make it apparent that the Heretikes opinions although pretended by themselues to be cc̄formable to Scriptures and such as may be proued out of Scriptures are not Apostolicall nor true he vrgeth them as M. Fisher vrged D. Featly to shew the beginning of their Churches and to vnfould the order of their Bishops so from the beginning running downe by succession as that their first Bishop had some of the Apostles or some Apostolicall man who perseuered with the Apostles for his Author and Predecessour and hauing giuen examples of the Catholike Churches who can thus vnfould the order of their Pastours and namely Rome for one he sayth afterwardes Confingant tale quid Haeretici Let Heretiques euen feigne some such like thing Thus we see what Tertullian did say to Heretikes of his tyme by which we may learne what we may say to the Nouellists of our tyme whome offering to dispute with vs about Scriptures we may altogeather debarre from Scripture and may examine them as Tertullian did those of his tyme saying VVho are you VVhen and whence came you VVhat haue you to do in my ground you that are not myne By what right dost thou O Marcion we may say O Martin Luther cut down my woods By what licence dost thou O Valentine O Caluin diuert or turne aside my fountaynes By what power dost thou O Apelles O Anabaptist remoue my limits VVhy do you O the rest of Heretikes sow and feed according to your owne will vpon my Land and pasture It is my possession I am the ancient possessour I haue the firme Originalls from the Authors themselues to whome the propriety did first belong I am the heyre of the Apostles as they did ordaine in their Testament and last will as they did commit it to my faythfull Trust as they did adiure me so I hold it But you they haue disinherited and cast out as strangers and enemyes c. So as by this prescription of Tertullian vntill D. Featly or some other can by other markes then by alleadging wordes of Scripture as by perpetuall visibility and interrupted succession of Bishops c. proue Protestants not to be Heretikes but the true Church of Christ and the right heyre of the Apostles to whome cōsequently belongeth the most ancient first possession of Scriptures M. Fisher had good reason and right to deferre disputing with him out of Scripture of Christ and his Apostles vntill he had made his full Induction of Names of Protestant Church-men and vnfoulded the orders of their Prostant Bishops so running downe from the beginning by succession as that their first Protestant Bishop had some of the Apostles or some Apostolicall man who perseuered with the Apostles for his Author Predecessour The which I accompt to be so impossible for him to doe as I dare and do challenge him saying with Tertullian Confingant tale quid Haeretici Let D. Featly or any of his fellow Protestants at least feigne because I am sure they cannot find Names of Protestant Bishops and Pastors whome they do imagine for proue they cannot out of good Authors to haue beene in all ages Which whiles they do not al sorts of people haue iust cause to thinke that neither D. Featly nor D. VVhite can performe that taske which they did tooto boldly vndertake of naming prouing and defending visible Ptotestants in al ages therupon al men may as I do conclude That the Protestant Church hath not beene so visible in all ages as the Cathelike Church ought to be and consequently the Protestant Church is not the true Catholique Church which we prosesse to beleeue in our Creed Neither consequently are their I'astours and Doctours and Preachers lawfully sent or sufficiently authorized to teach and expound Gods word nor consequently are people securely warranted to learne of them what is and what is not to be belieued by infallible diuine fa●th necessary to saluation nor indeed ought they to beleeue or heare them at all but ought to vnite themselues to that One Holy Catholike Apostolike perpetually visible Roman Church hearing beleeuing obeying the Pastors thereof whereby they may haue infallible iustruction in all matters of fayth secure direction for all matters concerning good life in such sort as they may attaine remission of their sinnes and saluation of their soules the grace of God in this life and endles heauenly happines in the next Vnto which I beseech sweet Iesus to bring vs all Amen FINIS Eudaimon Iohannes in defens p. H. Garn. D. Bishop against Rob. Abbots A very weake and Insufficient satisfaction as is showed hereafter Eph. 4. Heb. 11. Rom. 10. v. 14 15. Eph. 4. 11. Ose. 2. v. 19 20. Isa. 59. 20. Matth. 18. 20. Eph. 4. v. 11. 〈…〉 M. Fisher. D. Field in his Epistle Dedicatone Aug. lib. de vnitate Ecclesiae a This great Lady did expresly say that the conferēce did make against Protestants euen as it was related by you Protestant relator And another Lady who was present at the conferēce did protest to one that asked her how it moued her that she was by it confirmed in Catholique religion Lib. 1. Inst. c. 1. Sect. 4. Eph. 4. v. 11. c. Rom. 10. v. 14. c. 1 Luth. ep ad Argentin anno 1525. 2 Conradus Schushelb in Theol. Calu. lib. 2. fol. 130. B. versus finé 3 Geo. Mylli in Augustanae Confessionis explie art 7. de Eccl. pag. 137. 4 Benedict Morgést trac de Eccl pag. 145. 5 Calu. in I. epist. ep 141. 6 Bucer ep ad Epis. Hereford 7 Beza in Theol. ep epi. 5. 8 Iewell in his Apolog. of the Church 4 c. diuis 2. in his defence 42. 9 Perkins in exposit of the Creed † See the booke intituled The Author and substance of Protestant religiō Isa. 59. v. 21. Isa. 61 9 Isa. 60 11 Matth. 5 14 Matth. 18 17 Matth. 28 19 20 Coccius in thesauro Cōtrouersiarum tomo 1. lib. 8. art 1. Aug. in psal 47. lib. de vnit Eccles. cap. 16. 25. Isa. 59. v. 21. 60. v. 11. 61. v. 9. 1. Tim. 3. v. 15. Ephes. 4. v. 4. 11. 12. 13. 14. Tertul. lib. de praescript Luc. 10. v. 16. Matth. 18. v. 17 Tertull. de praescrip c. 15. Cap. 19. Cap. 20. 21. 22 sequent Cap. 32.