and doubtfull expressions often dropt out which may easily be taken by the Reader in the worst sense As though â—e reserved his evasions if he should be put to it 3. His style full of bitternesse that a man may know who the writeris though he put downe but two letters of his name 4. That he will against all â—â—mmon sense needs make us as much differing from the Churches â— England as the most rigid Brownists yea in some respects more and this hee strongly contends for though we professedly in our writings preachings practises manifest the contrary and testifie as oft as occasion serves the great dislike of their rigid Separation 5. As he hath cast us out of his own heart so he labours to bring all men out of conceit with us the Churches here the Parliament the Assembly the whole Kingdome 3. Kingdomes yea all other Churches and Nations As if we and all our Church-courses were a compound of absurdity and folly But in this as in the rest we commit our case to God that judgeth righteously who can cleare us as the light Psal 37. ☞ As his dealing is unloving so irregular for it's directly against the Apostles rule 1. Tim. 5.19 AGAINST AN ELDER RECEIVE NOT AN ACCVSATION BVT BEFORE TVVO OR THREE VVITNESSES Where it 's plain that Timothy himselfe must not receive so much as one accusation against any one Elder of a Church but before two or three witnesses that are able to make it good so tender is God of the names of his Ministers But W. R. so far forgets himselfe and this blessed rule that he receives 1. Not one but MANY accusations as his booke shewes 2. Not against some one Elder but in a manner ALL THE ELDERS YEA AND MEMBERS TOO AND ALL THE CHVRCHES IN N. E. 3. And all this not upon report of TVVO OR THREE VVITNESSES but some one single testimonie 4. Yea not so much as one single witnesse produced BEFORE us as the text requires but onely hee himselfe saith hee hath such and such a letter by him tells him so So that upon the point there is not one legall witnesse but all the testimonie is involved upon himselfe only a most incompetent man and unfit to be an Informer an accuser and a witnesse too much lesse in the roome of two or three witnesses 5. And which is yet more the doth not only receive these accusations but reports them to others yea divulge and print them to the whole world 6. And all this too with as great infamy dammage and wrong before the Churches and Kingdome as may be imagined and at such a time also as never was in our age when as the Parliament and assembly both sit at once consulting about Church-Discipline 7. And he staies not in the bare reporting these accusations but So reports them as one labouring to draw all others into the like errour of beleeving them 8. And which is worse then all the rest he brings such reports against us as 1. It 's nothing to him whether they be true or false 2. Yea which he certainely knowes are false The former of these I prove from his owne words in his Postscript ☜ pag. 50. I undertake not saith he to report things in New-England as really there they are WHETHER THEIR REPORTS BE TRVE OR FALSE IS NOTHING TO ME. The latter appeares in that in sundry places of his booke he relates things that are ex diametro contrary each to other both which he well knowes cannot possibly be true and yet lets both stand still on record against us and then infers bitter invectives in his animadversions from such contrary reports You will stand amazed at this dealing I suppose which I conceive I am bound to discover that the world may see how we are abused by him and cleare us in their apprehensions Thus for his grounds and manner of dealing I come now to the maner of his Narration Answer to the Title A Narration of some Church-courses generally held in opinion and practised by the Churches lately erected in new-New-England Answer LEt the Reader mind well the latitude of W. R. his undertaking in his booke It is to make a Narration not of some particular mens practises here and there in new-New-England but of the opinions and practises of whole Churches there and not of some one or two Churches for that is too narrow still for his scope but of THE CHVRCHES in New-England indefinitely And that you may know for certain he means to tell you what all the Churches there doe hold and practise and not sometimes but in their constant course he saith plainly they are the Church courses GENERALLY held by the Churches in New-England which he will declare So that though he speakes but of some Church courses yet those he doth mention must be such as are generally held and practised by the Churches there The performance of which in its latitude let him know we expect and if he comes short of this unlesse he revoke his title he will doe us wrong Answer to CHAP. I. THe summe of Art 1. and its Margent is That the Churches of New-England being the same in Discipline with Plymouth and Plymouth having their Principles from Mr. Robinson it is to be inquired whether we be not all of the way of the Separatists Answer 1. As in our judgements we much differ from them so in several particulars of moment we practise what the Separatists properly so called will not doe as hearing preaching praying in the Assemblies in England and also in private commmunion with them c. 2. Though we should practise some of the same things they doe in Discipline doth that make the way evill simply because they doe it First he must prove that the Separatists practise nothing right at all or else that we must not because they doe it 3. Himselfe hath fully answered for us Preface pag. 3. who saith to this effect Though in Discipline men generally act like others he meanes the Separatist yet if in their opinion of these practises and in the groundâ— of them they not only differ but stiffly â—ppsoâ— them the just repute of such persons is to be preserved We need looke no further to cleare us from censure then to W. R. himselfe For it 's well know ne we differ from them in our opinions and grounds of our practise and how we hate opposed rigid Separatists in that very point let our own writings witnesse Discourse of Covenant 36. 37. 38. 52. Here note once for all he saith that the churches in new-New-England are of one and the same way in Discipline without any materiall difference And this he would have remembred all along his booke I hope he will not start from this afterwards I pray him to mind it He saith Art 2. We have no Platformes agreed upon amongst us 1. We hold it not unlawfull to have a Platforme of Church Government i. e. a confession of the Discipline of Christ Ans
AN ANSWER TO W. R. HIS NARRATION of the Opinions and Practises of the Churches lately erected in new-Nevv-England Vindicating those Godly and Orthodoxall Churches from more then an hundred imputations fathered on them and their Church way by the said W. R. in his Booke Wherein is plainely proved 1. That the grounds of his Narration are sandie and insufficient 2. That the maner of his handling it unloving and irregular 3. That the matter of it ful of grosse mistakes divers contradictions 4. That the quotations extremely wrested and out of measure abused 5. That his Marginall notes impertinent and injurious By THOMAS WELDE Pastour of the Church of Roxborough in NEVV-ENGLAND Jude 10. They speake evill of things they know not Prov. 18.17 He that is first in his owne case seemeth just but his neighbour commeth after and searcheth him This is Licensed and Entered according to Order LONDON Printed by Tho Paine for H. Overton and are to be sold at his shop entring into Popes-Head Alley out of Lumbard-Streete 1644. THE EPISTLE TO THE REDAER THere was a law in Israell Deut. 22.18 19 that if any man did bring an ill name upon a Virgin of Israell the matter was to come before the Elders and hee was to bee chastised and amerced an hundred shekells of silver There is one W. R. if thou knowest the man that hath brought many ill reports not upon one Virgin but all the Virgin-Churches of New-England When thou seest him do so much as bring him forth to Answer this law Tell him wee purpose to try an Action with him and have satisfaction from him And if hee saith hee hath not raised these reports himselfe but had them from others Then tell him again from us that cannot satisfie for we have learned from divine and humane lawes that if any bee taken reporting of slaunders as wee shall abundantly shew hee hath do◠his Narrative he may be charged as the raiser of ◠〈◊〉 hee can cleare himselfe by bringing such Authors into light as will owne them Dut. 17.6 2 Cor. 13.1 1 Tim. 5.19 But if he will not or cannot wee must lay them at his owne doore It s for all the severall reports in his booke brought against us and our wayes we expect the rule of Moses and the Apo-stle Paul that in the mouth of two or three witnesses and not under every matter should be established to produce Barrow Browne Robinson c. for Authors for they were dead before New-England Churches were borne or H. W. T. P. and I know not what private letters lying by him in his study for wee know not their voyce nor let him say it was told me as he often doth for wee protest against such testimony nor I was informedso c. for sama est mendax and prejudice hardly speakes well of any Tell him wee will goe to aged Paul hee was a good Divine to bee our Vmpire to determine what witnesse we must have in a case of accusation and to his verdict wee will stand which is set downe plainely 1 Tim. 5.19 Three things more let me say to the reader and I have done 1. Wonder not this Answer staid so long for it had certainly taken his narrative by the heele but that some speciall providence whose distracted lines intercepted the truth is I thought it should neede no other Answer then it selfe untill I perceived some ill effects of it 2 But why doe I undertake this worke Answer 1. I am one of the nearest kinsmen to those Churches of any other man in these parts and therefore I take my selfe bound to the name of my Brethren in a righteous way and not let it die through my neglect 2. Few or none are here have had more experience of New-England Church courses then my selfe through many yeares continuance with them and to whom I am returning when God makes way and am therefore able to speake on certainty and with conscience where W. R. departs from the truth in his relations 3. I have beene pressed by word of mouth and sundry letters to doe it therefore if I should hold my peace when I am called to speake and see so many innocent Churches suffer I should not lift up my face to God nor my Brethren there God knowes my spirit how exceeding loath I was to controvert with a Brother though but a defendant and to uncover his nakednesse but when God calls I am bound with Moses when he saw the Ebrew did wrong to his Brother to say why smitest thou thy fellow Exod. 2.13 3. Touching the answer it selfe some things I would say 1 I thinke it not meete to answer all I could nor to every particular especially in his Marginall extravagances that would be too tedious For our principall passages being answered unto the rest will fall of themselves 2. Nor to answer any thing in his booke so oft as hee repeates it for divers things are fetched over by him some three some foure severall times what his reasons are himselfe can best give account 3. Neither is it possible for me to answer the sayings of his private letters lying by him such a ground of Church stories as I never heard of because I know neither who they are nor what their owne words are or if I did were it materiall 4. Thou seest I have a three fold worke to answer 1. his Articles 2 his quotations 3 his Margent All which I have indeavored faithfully as in Gods presence to doe what oversight or infirmity hath passed my penne therein I crave thy pardon for we are weake men and God knowes too apt to forget our selves in greater things then these 5. What I here write is onely from my selfe if any weakenesse appeare impute it not I pray thee to the case in hand or our Churches iudgements there but to my owne frailty rather 6. Nor is it my scope to discusse the points of Discipline that worke is in abler hands but I looke upon his booke as an historicall narration and accordingly I frame my answer 7. Though he brings not the words of any of his Authors cited which had been fairer and might have kept him in closer bonds yet I have done it for him especially in the last sixe or eight Chapters that you may iudge whether hee hath dealt fairely with them or no. 8. When I recite W. R. his words in his narration you will see I have dealt candidly with him either mentioning his very words or so many of them as containe their full strength whereto my answer tends 9. When at any time in my answer I say such an Article or such a clause is untrue or is false I am not willing to impute the falsity thereof to the Authors knowledge I would iudge otherwise of him then so but to the thing it selfe asserted which may be done through his misinformation or mistake I will say no more but commit thy spirit to the wise guidance of the Father of lights who
haply to the great detriment of our cause for that wee were unwilling to blow a fire 2. When we did appeare in Pulpit or Presse whether it was without instigation or no and how sparing wee have beene ever since untill some late forced replyes and how inoffensive in our carriages and preachings we leave to all godly to judge 3. Instance but in the Holland Brethrens Apologie was it Impetuously done was it A MOCK NARRATIVE A MEERE GVLL as this man most abusively styles it was it not rather full of Peaceablenesse modesty and candor and seasonably needefull as that Reverend man affirmed in Print 4. Doth not W. R. know that about this time of promises and Pactions or a while after our Brethren of the Presbyterian way did write a Letter into Scotland with many of their hands to it telling the Ministers there they did approve of their Governement and would joyne in the furtherance of it Now for him to binde our hands and seale up our mouthes and then underhand at the same time to fore-determine the matter and bee ingaged in that way before any solemne dispute and yet to accuse us for breaking Pactions seemes neither rationall nor faire Other things I shall speake to the Preface afterwards in answer to the booke Onely this he will make the Reader beleeve to forestall him that there are some seeming contradictions in our Tenets apparent repugnances to the letter of Scripture or light of common sense But what reall contradictions are in his Narrative and manifest repugnances in his Animadversions to Scripture rules light of reason and common sense too by the helpe of God I shall make to appeare but with a sad heart I must tell him that such things should be written by a Brother whom we have so much esteemed and reverenced but seeing now it is done rather then so many pretious Saints and Churches should suffer wrongfully I am forced to uncover If others be rightly informed and himselfe convinced I have my ends To the Narration in generall AS he saith hee had laid by the thoughts of it a good while through many discouragements So I conceive if he had cast them by for ever made the place of conception their grave he had dealt better for the truth and himselfe But he is very angry for want of Narratives One he must have and one he will have be it right or wrong and if neither New-England nor Holland Brethren bee worth a Narrative let him come he will frame one himselfe And this shall be no MOCK NARRATIVE NO MEERE GVLL as the Holland Brethren produced but a more solid thing Now what it is will appeare if we weigh three things That the grounds on which hee builds it are sandie and insufficient The manner of his proceeding unloving and irregular The matter of it 1. Full of grosse mistakes contrarieties to the truth and contradictions to it selfe 2. His quotations abused extremely and wrested 3. His Marginall notes very scandalous and offensive And according to this method we will proceede and undertake to make all these particulars good in our answer First for his grounds You would thinke that the grounds on which all his worke is founded and all new-New-England Churches taxed had neede bee sound even adequate or else hee will not prove himselfe a wise builder But they are these three 1. Our owne printed Bookes 2. Private letters 3. Other good intelligences as himselfe saith in his Title For the printed bookes which he quotes they are the writings of some godly and learned men there But that these be rightly conceived know 1. These bookes five in number are not written from all the Elders two of them but from one only Another from some few none of them from all 2. Not written to the Churches here as a Platforme of our practise but sent as an answer to some one or more Brethren in England that desired satisfaction to some quaetees of their owne whereof W. R. himselfe was one 3. Nor intended by them for the presse much lesse to be made a standard to prove our Churches opinions and waies by but published by some well-minded here without their knowledge yea against the mindes of some of them Yet if he had kept close to these in his narration he had saved his credit and my paines but you shall see he hath so abused and wrested them I dare say in wel-neere an hundred places that his assertions are not their sayings and words but his owne and they will leave him to quit himselfe as well as he can For as Scripture it selfe the rule of all things abused is no Scripture so the writings of men perverted are no more theirs This we shall make plentifully appeare Sundry private letters lying by him as hee saith sent from New-England but names only two letters of their names are another ground of his story And whatsoever any one of these writs though never so privately and unknown to any other man in any of all the Churches must needs be the opinion of all the Churches in New-England But to shew the invalidity yea and impossibility of this to be a good ground Consider 1. These are incompetent proofes and liable to great and just exceptions For 1. Some there are contrary to us in their opinions Antinomians Familists Antichurchians c. and even some of his cited letters as neer as we can gather are from some of these 2. Others that write letters from thence are weake in judgement not understanding what the Churches hold or not able to expresse aright what they themselves understand are all these fit to be the Churches interpreters Doth not W. R. himselfe in his preface say Scribimus omnes indocti doctique 3. Others may be novices not well verst in our way nor ripe to give the Churches verdict 4. Some others haply are but in part of our judgement and not come off fully to the Churches practises there 5. Others are prejudiced against the place and persons and prejudice himselfe knowes can hardly speake well And we know diverse such have wrote letters which t is like are fallen into his hands Therefore these cannot be built upon for competent witnesses And whereas he saith in his Postcript pag. 50. Object That these letters come from Members of Churches and many from Ministers of the Word It is answered That Members of Churches and Ministers too Ans may be liable to some or other and some of them possibly to many of the said exceptions Neither is it in our power nor in any Church in the world to cure all their Members or Ministers either of their distempers for if it were you would not suffer your own Churches in many of their Members and Ministers to be so infected with sundry grosse errors as they are 2. A testimonie against whole Churches had need be sure that men may trust unto it But how can we be assured 1. Whether such letters as he cites were ever written from New-England
or no for I have good ground to question ☜ because he thrusts in T. G. to I. G. amongst his New-England letters and yet these men never came there though himself faith in postscript pag. 51. ult l. That his letters come from Members of our Churches in new-New-England And as he adds some so he may adde more for ought I know 2. If such letters were sent how can we be assured that such expressions as he reports are in those letters 2. Or such a scope as he puts upon them to be collected from those expressions All these must be cleared before we can ground any thing upon them But W. R. tells us so Ans So he tells us other stories in this booke that are as far from truth as old-Old-England is from New which wee have no faith to credit 2. If he hath so extreamly mistaken the printed letters which he knowes we can come at to peruse how can we or any else be assured that he hath not more abused his private letters which no eye but his owne may see 3. Suppose none of the mentioned exceptions can be had but that the writers of the letters be as honest sound able men as can be imagined and suppose we could be assured of the particulars recited yet all this will not serve because they are but single men and write as private persons their own thoughts not as be trusted by any commission from the Churches to write their common Judgements Therefore no ground to esteeme their letters of such authenticall force unlesse he can prove they were allowed by the Churches or were men Apostolicall that could not erre in writing 4 If this be a good ground to prove Churches judgements by private letters marke what absurdities will ensue 1. That we must believe that the Churches of new-New-England denie a power of votes ordinarily to the people because Mr. Parker a Pastour there wrote so And so of necessity we must believe a falshood 2. That if W. R. and two or three more should write into new-New-England of their allowance of the lawfulnesse of an imposed Common Prayer booke then we may write and print it for so doth W. R. that the Churches and Ministers in old-Old-England doe generally allow such impositions 3. Then any few envious or malicious persons in a Church may bring a scandall unavoydable upon any Church in the world if what they say and hold should be accounted the Churches judgement where they live 4. Then the Churches of England are all Antinomian and Familisticall because on our knowledge such letters have been written from some in these Churches as professedly mainetaine such opinions how absurd these conclusions would be let any ind fferent man judge 5. Yea to sinke this unreasonable dealing of his ITS IMPOSSIBLE that this should be a sound discovery of the Churches judgement and practise there ☞ because many of these letters cited speake contrary one to another as himselfe well knowes and his Narration fully expresseth yet all the Churches in New-England saith W. R. himselfe in his 1. pag. are of one and the same way in Church Government and what may be said of any one may be believed of all Therefore it 's impossible that his letters which speake contraries can be a sufficient ground of testimonie for our Church way which is but only one And for him to produce them as a proofe of what they cannot possible make good appeares not only A SEEMING CONTRADICTION but against light of COMMON SENSE which he falsly imputes to us but we truly to him 6. Lastly we appeale for a conclusion of this Argument from W. R. in a distemper to the same man in his right minde to tell us now ingenuously if this be a good Argument by one mans writing to prove the Churches iudgement No saith W. R. pag. 3. line 4. of this very booke it is not for such a booke saith he called our way of the Churches proves not that they hold a platforme of Discipline in New-England and why Because it was compiled by one particular man and not consented to by the rest What can be more full But he leanes not upon the testimony of any one letter Object but produceth divers letters for the proofe of every particular If he did so it were insufficient as is proved Answ but he often produceth one single private letter alone without any other evidence at all as I can make appeare in above fifty severall places throughout the booke But he will tell us that he produceth not these private letters and manuscripts by themselves alone to prove our judgements Object and practises in New England but as ioyned with the printed bookâ—s or papers to make the storie compleat But it is not so neither Ans ☞ for in abundance of places he produceth none of the printed bookes at all for proofe but only â—hese private letters as his only ground As Cap. 1. Art 2. Cap. â—â— Art 2. medio and Art 4. And Art 5. And Art 11. Cap. 4. Art 9. And pag. 17. pag. 18. pag. 19. Cap. 5. Art 2. And Art 3. And Art 4. And Art 5. And Art 6. And Art 7. And Art 8. And Art 9. And Art 10. And Art 11. Cap. 6. Art 10. Cap. 7. Art 4. Art 5. Art 6. Art 7. Cap. 9. 9. And above twenty more mentioned in the Margent and the postscript Therefore it 's evident he grounds a very great part of his Narration upon these private writings which are altogether insufficient as we have proved upon demonstrated reasons But he was not there himselfe an eye-witnesse to behold things Object he produced the best grounds he had for his Narrative What calling had he more then others Ans to make any Narratives of things done 3000. Miles off which he knew no better he should rather have let it alone then abuse the truth the Churchâ—s and all dabble himselfe upon such slight grounds as these are But see his third ground he hath OTHER GOOD INTELLIGENCES that is by word of mouth 1. Who can witnesse he hath such Intelligence Answer 2. That this is GOOD Intelligence 3. Where are those good Intelligencers let them come face to face and be tryed but if they be peeping behind the doore we owne them not for good Intelligencers Thus we have seene the unsoundnesse of this foundation whereon he builds his story and the Axlettee on which all the burden lies being thus broken the NARRATIVE must needs fall without any further opposition But as his grounds are weake so the manner of his procedings is 1. Unloving 2. Irregular 1. UNLOVING Witnesse 1. All those calumnies he strives with all his might though to no purpose to cast upon his so much HONOVRED BRETHREN from the beginning of his Preface to the end of his Postscript 2. His crosse-grained animadversions where are so many quibs gibs scoffes and far-fetched collections to make New-England men and their wayes odious to the world together with his darke
collected out of Scripture and set down in writing 2. Yet we see no Grounds to impose such a Platforme upon Churches but leave them to their libertie therein because we know not that Christ ever enjoyned it and therefore we desire W. R. not to stumble at our Churches much lesse take upon him so masterly to controll us because we have it not To the Marginalls of Art 2. He wonders how we so soone fell into such an exact forme of Discipline Objection 1 without a Platforme We answer him yea he tells us himselfe Answ we had it from that patterne of wholsome words written in the Scriptures Gods good spirit opening our eyes to see it And some others also laying aside prejudice and humbly setting themselves to waite on God for light may come to see an exacter forme of Discipline then it may be hither to they have done But why doe no other Churches in the world saith he besides your Objection 2 selves see this way but all oppose it Blessed be God it is not so many thousands doe see and follow it Answ so far are they from opposing it And even England is comming neerer it by many steps of late then before He that hath brought them from Episcopacy Imposed Formes and Popish Ceremonies c. can carry them on further 2. Most of such as doe not walke in but oppose our way are they that either have not heard our grounds or else have not impartially weighed them and hence have received a prejudice against our practise 3. To reveale light being a free act of the father of light he may choose what truths he will manifest and when and to whom and in what measure he will dispence them as Christ saith Mat. 25.11 Father I thanke thee thou hast revealed these things so it is Father because thy good will is so Objection 3 But we tie our selves to a president why not rather to a platforme Answ 1. Let him consider well if this be not a reproach injuriously cast upon us whose indeavour is and hath beene as in the sight of God not to follow mens or Churches president further then wee see them following Christ for though at first a president may be looked at as a directorie into the right way yet the practise may be grounded on the truth it selfe discerned and not upon the president according to Iohn 4.42 They were first led to Christ by the woman yet after beleeved on him for his owne sake and the truth they discerned to be in him Ob. All our Churches saith he in New-England their members doe clearely see the shining light of Discipline by a cleare evidence of the way revealed to them and yet doâ— tiâ— themselves to a president Ans Is not here a contradiction for if we all have full cleare shining light ☞ then wee neede no spectacles of a president or if wee tie our selves to a president it 's because wee conceive wee have not full and cleare light of our owne Objection 4 But we have had divisions amongst us Ans 1. Those divisions were not caused by our Church Discipline but by certaine vile opinions brought to us from England which I feare is your own case this day and yet no blame you will say 2. Through rich mercy they are long since subdued by the light and power of his truth O that you could say the same of all the loose opinions here if the will of God were so for which wee sigh daily to heaven on your behalfe and dare not reproach you with it 3. When these divisions did FALL it was whiles our discipline STOOD which shewes that our Discipline bred them not but destroyed them rather Objection 5 To the Margent on Article 3. If an imposed platforme by imperious power be unlawfull in others why doe wee so rigorrously presse others to our president Answ To impose a thing and that by an imperious power which may possibly be erroneous in it self or without evidence to others consciences on whom it is pressed cannot bee lawfull but for us to make the perfect word our patterne then carefully informe others therein and after iâ—formation leade them by it is certainly much differing from the other and farre from a slavish invitation by our selves or rigâ—â—â— pressing of a president upon others both which here he imputes very unjustly to us As God hath kept us hitherto from such imperious rigour so I hope by his grace he will ever doe But wee forbeare giving of our priviledges to such as conform not to our Objection 6 way 1. If it were our way and not Christs Ans it were our great sinne and in part the same with the Prelates of late but to forbeare giving priviledges to such as submit not to the rules of participation is no rigouâ— but such a thing as Christ himselfe would doe if in our places 2. It is no more then all other societies in the world doe who first require conformity before they permit to any the injoyment of their liberties 3. Doe wee any more herein then the Reverend Assembly themselves at this day who would not willingly admit unto Church-imployments and priviledges any of a contrary judgement in point of Discipline And yet I hope you will not say that either these or those exercise rigour But wee will not own such as sister Churches that differ from us though Objection 7 but in some things in Church Discipline Doe not the Churches of England differ from us not onely in some things but in many as W. R. Ans ☜ himselfe saith and yet wee owne them as sister Churches witnesse his owne quoted Authors Discourse of Covenant p. 36. at large Mr. Cottons printed letter All which affirme in effect and some in words that we blesse the wombes that bare us and the paps that gave us suck We intreate W. R. in the spirit of meekenesse to cleare himself from a slaunder in such a generall accusation of his brethren Yet we more rigidly impose our patterne then any Churches ever did Objection 8 How great an aspersion this is I leave others to judge Answ and the Lord himselfe to convince him of Why hath there ever beene so much as any attempt amongst us to suspend excommunicate ☜ deprive banish imprison any for dissenting from us in matters of discipline as of late in England for non-conformity Or to raise a bloody war for Bishops a Service booke as against our Brethren in Scotland or to slander falsifie Authors render many godly Churches odious to the world as W. R. himselfe hath done in this booke meerely for difference from him in point of Church Government We have indeed Civilly Ecclesiastically censured divers there amongst us but it was for obstinacy in weighty points in Religion sedition in the state scandalous practises as also manifest contempt of the Churches of Christ there but not any for inconformity in Church Discipline Answer to CHAP. II. HE saith Art 1. 2. That
this explicite Covenant is necessary for the constituting of it then we should denie the Churches of En for in them is not such an explicite solemne publique Church Covenant to bee true Churches but that is farre from us as Discourse of Covenant p. 36. 37. 38. ergo 3. The expresse words of Answer to 32. quest 38. 39. from which he quotes this 1 Article if consulted with will tell you that a pure Church is the Church intended Therefore it 's cleare when we make such a Covenant as W. R. expresseth necessary it is to a Church as it 's compleated in all her integrals according to the perfection required in the Gospel and not to the essence of every Church This one thing being cleared what will now become of all his Marginal collections exclamations insultations on the 1. 3. 8. Art Hee cryes out of our unheard of rigidnesse as if we would touch the freehold of the Churches of England and all the Churches in the world But all his invectives are as arrowes shot into the aire for we hold no such thing as he exclaimes at We hold saith he That without this solemne expresse Covenant no true Church or Church members but all are harlots and concubines Art 1. the quotes Discourse of Covenant page 14. 18 19 20 21 24. to prove it Answ From what wee last said this falls to the ground as false I say further Blessed be our God wee never were acquainted with such Dialect in out Churches there we hope such sore censures are and shall be farre from us And for the quotations hee makes for these words I marvaile his paper blushed not when he wrote it because himselfe did not for let any man reade over the pages as wee have done and see if one can bee found so much as savoring of such a thing He reports Article 1. that we hold that members are united to Christ by the Church Covenant ☞ 1. A Paradox we never knew before or ever heard of in New-England for wee professe freely wee know no meane or instrument of union to Christ but faith in the Covenant of grace 2. This is a device of his owne braine for which we boldly againe challenge him as being a thing not possibly to be proved in any of our quoted writings in print let him if he be able prove himselfe honest by making it good or confesse his fault as becomes a Christian we professe our hearts are justly grieved at this dealing and the Spirit of Christ in heaven also is we feare made sad hereby 3. In this also he contradicts his owne relation Art 3. where he plainly saith that many that be within the Church Covenant are not in the Covenant of Grace and so not in Christ and yet here he saith that by the Church Covenant a man is united to Christ So the Church Covenant doth unite us to Christ and it doth not unite to Christ how can both these be true This is too frequent with him to lay things that are contradictory to our charge and not a word of proofe from the Authors as any ground of it This I lay on him as a further charge He reports Art 2. That we hold that joyning our selves in all holy fellowship cannot knit a man as a member of a Church And quotes Dis of Cov. pag. 21. for his proofe 1. The Authour hath not one word to beare him out 2. We wonder what the man meanes to affirmes this Answ for joyning ones selfe in holy fellowship he knowes is our usuall and frequent description of the Church Covenant when wee speake most punctually to it ☞ and doe commonly for that end cite Jer. 50.5 Act. 9.26 3. That very Authour and page he cites to prove we hold that joyning our selves in holy fellowship cannot knit a man as a member in Covenant speakes directly the contrary in these words When joyning saith the Authour is used for a mans taking on him voluntarily a new relation as in this case hee doth there it alwaies implies a Covenant In Art 3. and 4. he would make as though we our selves speak contrary to our selves in the one place he saith we hold our Church Covenant to be distinct from the Covenant of Grace in the other place That it is not distinct but as a part from the whole But we must digest grosser things then this in his narrations consult with his Author and you shall see nothing to countenance him yea he quotes the same Authors for both In Art 7. He tells us We hold our Church Covenant must be vâ—call but proves it not by any one testimony wee can reade and its contrary wee are sure to our constant practise that admits members into the Church by a Covenant agreed to by their silence only and as it is contrary to our practise so to our writing in the discourse of the Covenant which expressly saith that silent consent is sufficient and there proves it by Gen. 17.7 and Deut. 29.10 Whereas hee had reported before of our rigorous exacting of our Covenant and how it must be vocall and expresse or it would not serve our turne nay no Churches at all without this explicit Covenant c. Now in Art 8. he puls downe all he hath built and tells us that we hold that a bare consent and agreement to be members will serve And that mens implicit intentions to doe such a thing may suffice â—sw 1. Hee grosly falsifies his Authour brought to prove this minsing of the Covenant Discourse of Covenant p. 21. 22. where is not one word that way and which much aggravates he still quotes the very same Author and p. for our minsing of the Covenant that he did in Art 1. for our rigorous exacting of it 2. He slandereth us to make the world beleeve we run contrary waies sometimes by over rigorous exacting the Covenant sometimes againe that after all our rigour we bring it so low almost to nothing whereas in all our writings I professe it solemnly there is no shew at all of any such differing practise 3. Hence also the ground being rotten his Marginall construction falls on his owne head ☞ 4. Hee doth not only abuse his Authour and us but himselfe also who said in Cap. 1. Art 2. That new-New-England Churches walke in the same way without any materiall difference and yet this is the third time he hath taxed us for grosly differing from our selves How can these things be See how many grosse faulterings in one poore article what are in all his book He sets downe two of the formes of the Church Covenants which any savory and gratious spirit viewing over and surveighing the godly simplicity of them cannot one would thinke but approve and relish yet see this mans spirit so prejudiced against us and all things wee doe that he cannot choose but without reason finde fault with divers innocent passages therein As 1 That wee promise willingly and meekely to submit to Christian Discipline
it may be so And yet when he comes to speake of the other part of the contradiction i. e. that we have no communion in the Sacraments as if he studied to crosse himself he is as full in his deniall of it vid. cap. 9. Art 4 5. 2. Note how thicke his sayings and unsayings fall in Cap. 9. Art 1. ☜ He affirmes we hold Communion with other Churches and Church members and then presently in 4 5. Art of the very same chap. he expresly denies that we hold any such communion Then againe in the very next chap. the 10. Art 1. he saith as full as can be that we hold communion mutually with other Churches and by in chap. 12. 8. as fully and expressely denies againe that we hold any such thing The man being an able and judicious man in other things it is more remarkable he should be thus extreamely left to confound himselfe while he sought to confound our poore innocent Churches Let any carefully observe in all these things mentioned whether I have not dealt candidly with him or no. Art 2. He reports 1 That one Church may give power to another over any of her members for excommunication 2 That the Minister of one Church may convey power to the Ministers of another for the administration of the Sacraments Answer Neither of both which doe wee hold or practise The onely Author cited that we can come at is Cot. Cat. p. 7. whose words are these The Supper is dispenced by the Minister to the faithfull of the same Church or to such as are cōmended to them by a like body See if here be one tittle to bear him out Yet from these assertions which he saith we hold he flings rebukes upon us in his comments upon his owne Text. p. 37. whereas indeede wee might reprove his 1 misreporting 2 abusing his Author 3 reproving us without cause Without letters of recommendation from one Church and Minister to another it is unlawfull saith he Art 3. in any case to administer any Church ordinance to any Church member but their owne upon any pretence whatsoever 1. Here is neither truth nor proofe to be seene Answ 2. Letters of recommendation for publique participation are not sent from one Minister to another but from a Church to a Church 3. We hold it not unlawfull but doe often practise to receive other members to communion with us without letters especially if they bee knowne to any of our Church else such letters are desireable but hee saith We doe it not in any case upon any pretence whatsoever which is utterly false and without proofe He tells us That wee are so strait-laced that if a company of godly people should sit neere us where our power reacheth differing from us only in some points of Church-Government they should not onely not be owned as a sister Church but should be in danger of severe punishment by our Magistrate Ans 1 If you weigh well this accusation of us in all the particulars it is very harsh and sore and here is no proofe but H. W. who this should be I professe I cannot tell unlesse some malignant or back-friend amongst us there or whether such a thing were ever written in these words and sense I know not and if it be certainly so written and from a godly man yet it is but one single witnesse and I am forbidden and so are all others 1 Tim. 5.19 to receive an accusation against one Elder much more against all the Elders and Churches in new-New-England without two or three witnesses therefore we dare not beleeve it 2. To this very point in hand the Ans to 32. 9. p. 82 83. speakes fully and fairely which W. R. well knowing for it was written to himselfe amongst others deales not candidly to conceale that Answer of a printed booke from known Authors of credit in new-New-England because it is faire and loving for what other ground could hee have and bring in the Answer of H.W. a man we know not which is harsh and distastfull how can the concealing of that and relating of this seeme ingenuous or friendly to us or the truth Answer to CHAP. XI HE makes report of a groundlesse course as he calles it in the Church at Cambridge in New-England where saith he the people use to meet together privately each one to hold forth the work of grace in his or her soule from the first conversion to that day so that their Pastour might know their growth in grace And saith also that as some report the end of this meeting was to cast out by excommunication non-proficients Ans With what face can any godly man call such meetings of the Saints for such an holy end as to try their growth in grace a groundlesse meeting and so cast dirt upon it for he makes proofe of no other end besides that 2. Did these godly people ever cast any out of the Church there meerely for non-proficiency 3. He hath still forgotten that rule in 1 Tim. 3.19 that requires two or three witnesses to bee brought forth c. who yet proceeds upon I know not what relations to beleeve and report yea and print to the view of the world what in his opinion may detract from a Reverend Elder and a godly Church also No marvell he calls his Book a poore pamphlet truly it is so indeed if all things we have discovered in it be well weighed and it will appeare yet poorer before we have done to any candid reader It is our humble suit to heaven that God will discover to himselfe the weakenes and error of his dealings herein for the humbling of his spirit Answer to CHAP. XII A Short Answer might serve to this long Chapter for most of it as also of the two next is but a repetition of things spoken once or twice some of them thrice before and answered to already He said in the beginning of his preface he wanted not work◠but it seemes now towards the end of his booke he is more at leasure and so hee thinkes his reader is also else why he should so double treble the very same things totidem verbis I know not unlesse happily to make a deeper impression of his owne mistakes in his reader In Art 1. he tells us that after a Church is gathered it is often some yeares before she addresseth her selfe to the calling of Officers Whereas it is our usuall and constant course as hath beene said not to gather any Church untill they have one amongst themselves Ans fit for a Minister whom with all speede they call into Office and account themselves a lame and imperfect body till that be effected In his Marg. on that Art he saith hee is told to his comfort that many that were counted good Ministers in Old-England are there layed aside because they aime at men of speciall parts 1. We desire proofe for this aspersion unjustly cast on us Answ or else we shall still father it upon himselfe as
we currently hold there is no visible Church but a particular and that we denie an universall visible Church IN ANY SENSE Answ Though the quoted Authors say There is no Church properly so called wherein Ordinances may be administered but a particularly only Yet wee acknowledge also IN SOME SENSE a Domesticall Church Phil. 2. To the Church in thy house and an VNIVERSALL Church consisting of all visible beleevers according to 1 Tim. 3.15 And this HIMSELF grants we hold Marg. 2. Art 2. Why then doth he say we denie an universall visible CHVRCHIN ANY SENSE He stumbles at the smalnes of the number of members in our Churches at their first erection 7. 8. 9. saith he and on this string he harpes foure or five times at least in this booke 1. What number expresly shall make a Church is not set downe in Scripture In Adams and Noahs time when there was not above 7. 8. or 9. persons will he denie the being of a Church And what will he make of Christ his family where were not above 12. besides himselfe And of the first foundationalls of the famous Church of Ephesus who were about 12. Art 19. 1. 7. and Bizâ— on that place saith Paul then planted a Church amongst the Ephesians 2. When our number is thus small it 's only in the very first infancy of it it abides not so but members are speedily and daily added untill they be as he blames us for not being a compleate organicall body Hence â—hese objections also in his Marg answered OF WANT OF IMPLOYMENT AND MAINTENANCE for the Officers in regard of their small number He saith Article the third We denie all representative Churches in a power of judicature Answ It is because we know no rule to set the Officers in the roome of their whole Church and the Presbyterie in the place of all their Churches to binde the one or the other to stand to their decrees unlesse we had Apostles on earth againe for Church Officers yet even they were very tender in this point To the Margent to Art 1. â—t he may prove the number of 7. 8. or 9 too small to adminiâ— censure and so no Church he makes a faire addition of his own to a rule of Christ for whereas Christ directs Mat. 18.15 16. an offended brother to take one or two only to him to admonish the offender in private and then tell the Church now he will have this course beyond the rule twice gone over that he may make the foresaid number too small for a Church-censure So that he will rather crosse Christ himselfe then not thwart us and here he makes a long discourse to shew his owne weaknesse the more in this new devised censure of his He saith The Apostles Churches consisted of many thousands 1. Not in their first beginnings Answ for in the greatest Church the number was small enough at first in comparison Acts 1.15 and this is the time of our Churches we now speake of 2. Their grouth was sudden and by an extraordinary way certain thousands being added in two dayes and so necessity inforced their abode together at present 3. They continued not long so great a body but were soone dispersed by Sauls persecution of them Act. 8.1 4. While they did hold together they might possibly meete to edification as well as in some of our Churches here in London as Cripple-Gate Olives Sepulchers and others where the Ministers voyce may reach to edification 4. 5. 6. 7000. soules every Lords day Vid. Mr. Mathers booke pag. Therefore for him to say it is not possible c. is too large He tells us our Churches cannot be gathered in country Villages especially of such choyce Members c. where so few Saints are c. 1. That is the fault of people not of the rule nor of the way Answer If the Saints be thin sowen who can helpe it They ought to have flowed in more abundantly to Christ by the Gospell in all this time 2. They may partake of all Ordinances as they did except the Sacraments and such as are fit of those also in best times and ways as may be ordered for most conveniency 3. He must not limit Gods power who by the word rightly dispensed and his blessing thereon Gen. 13.14 can raise a people for himselfe beyond all our thoughts Ephes 3.10 as he hath done elswhere He takes much paines to no purpose in Marg. Art 2. to prove in confutation of us that in some sense M 9.3 there is an universall visible Church Answ Why we never denied it in some sense but blamed him even now for saying we denied it ☞ I wonder at the man who saith 1. That we hold what we doe â—â— 2. Then pretendeth to prove it but falsifies his Authors 3. Then makes confutation of his own sayings as if they were ours 4. Then flings reproaches on us for such sayings which are not ours but his 5. To make us amends in the end of his Margent he fathers all upon our mutablenesse saying sometimes we acknowledge an universall visible Church but usually denie it and yet even in this also he slanders not bringing nor being able to bring I verily believe one word of proofe that ever we denied it Let him make those things good or humbly confesse his error 5. To Marg. of Art 3. he saith Though we denie in Art 3. the Officers of one Church power to represent their Church in her judicature c. yet sometimes we are forced to use messengers to represent the whole body as at the constitution of a new Church and private examination of Members to be admitted Answer c. Thus he would beare the world in hand if you wil believe him that our practise doth crosse our Principles but there is no such thing for here he proves not neither can that we denie a Church that libertie which all societies in the world have i. e. to depute delegate her Officers in some particular cases as in her name and stead to represent the whole body for this is no more then the Church of Antioch did Act. 15.2 and then our selves frequently doe in some instance he mentions and divers others But what is this to the giving those Officers generally a power of judicature in and over that Church and a compound Presbyterie in and over all their Churches whom he saith they represent because we denie the latter doe we therfore the former 3 It is meete he should take notice of a double aspersion without any shew of ground or proofe cast upon us 1. That we denie any representation of Churches 2. That we crosse our principles in practising what we denie both these imputations I hope he will honestly acquit us of Marg. Art 4. In the difinition saith he of a Church the Officers are left out He knowes well that a definition must accord to the lowest degree of the thing defined therefore we use to put in only essentialls
their covenant and he saith they must enter in afresh as if they had never yet beene received at all This we must tell him is not faire dealing and what will now become of his marginall note upon the Article so mistaken Many other collections besides what we have answered to already he makes in his marginall notes on this chapter by way of objection against us which deserve a little answering as In his margent to Article 2. A strange yet bold assertion saith he spoken without good show of reason but what is this bold assertion That Job and Melchisedec were no Members of the visible Church I intreat the Reader to see if his Authors quoted for these words Answ will beare him out in these bold accusations of us or no All that Ans to 34 37. saith is this We make no question of the salvation of Job and his friends yet it is a great question whether they were of any visible Church or no and gives his reason seeing the visible Church in those times seemed to be appropriated to the posterity of Abraham c. of whose line it cannot easily be proved that all these men did come And all the other cited Author Cns to 9. Pos 66. saith is this We no where read there is this reason that Milchisedec Job and his four friends were circumcised neither doe we believe they were Now see whether 1. we say and conclude that these holy men were in no Church 2. if we boldly assert it 3. without good shew of reason 4. if there needs a marginall confutation He saith that Baptisme though it doth not really admit infants into the visible Church yet formally it doth c. He speakes besides the point for the question is not 1. Answer What doth formally and in the ceremony but really admit Members 2. not Infants but men of yeers 3. not into the visible Church but a particular congregation so he might have spared this labour which makes nothing for him or against us To his long Margent to the 3. Article wherein he grants a covenant in a four-fold sense but denies and inveys against the strictnesse of our Church covenant I should have answered but because he builds all upon a grosse mistake which was answered already in Article 1. i. e. that we make this vocall and expresse covenant necessarily for that constituting of a true Church and say that all societies are whores and Concubines without it a speech abhorted of us I passe it by and tell him that what he builds upon such rotten foundations will ruere mole suâ He makes foure false suppositions and then drawes sundry conclusions of his own from them and so fights with his own shadow pag. 15. 16. As first that we hold the Church Covenant is the Covenant of grace 2. That in our Church Covenant we hold it necessary and a thing essentiall to the Covenant to make repetition of the whole covenant of grace 3. That our covenanting to performe duties to our owne Church hinders our communion with and care of all other Churches Which things being nothing so but meere mistakes all his collections from them vanish in the aire 4. That some men doe enter into this Covenant and yet are unsatisfied that it is a way of God and so cannot safely engage themselves by this covenant Which also being a meere fancie of his owne I passe by The next is as strange as weake p. 17 i. e. That if we have a set foâ—â—â— of a Church-covenant imposed upon all that enter into the Church ☞ and this read in a booke why may we not as well have a set forme of Prayer and leiturgie to be read in Churches â—sw The Narratour shewes still a good minde to set formes it is the third time he hath been harping on this string First for Overtures and shewes in members then for set and standing rules or formes in admissions now for set formes of prayer and that in Churches are to be read also in a booke He was hard driven for arguments else he would never have produced this as a ground for set formes of prayer in Churches For he might know there is a large breadth of difference betwixt a Covenant and a prayer For 1 the one is presented to God himselfe only The other to man also 2. The severall Articles and all branches of the one had neede bee certainely knowne and agreed on beforehand that they may punctually and deliberately know what the particulars are they engage themselves to God in no such ground for our Petitions in prayer 3. The one had neede to bee written for remembrance lest we should forget in tract of time what the severall branches were we bound our selves unto according to Jer. 50.5 A perpetuall Covenant not to bee forgotten I know no such ground for our Petitions in Prayer nay it is impossible to doe it 4. Set formes of prayer are a stinting of the Spirit who hath promised to enlarge our spirits by helping our infirmities in prayer as well in matter as manner in What as well as How to Pray Rom. 8.26 Wee know no such promise for extemporary assistance in the matter and forme of a Covenant 5. Reading prayer in a booke hinders the affection which is one principall thing in prayer but our maine worke whiles the Covenant which we take is rehearsing is attention judgment consideration all which are not hindred but much furthered and helped by distinct reading of it 6. By reading of a set forme of prayer in the Church the Ministers gifts which Christ hath given him for that end Eph. 4.8.11 are obscured and in great degree buryed and the presenting to God the several and continuall necessities of the congregation extreamely hindred and restrained Neither of which are done by a set forme of a Covenant agreed unto and read at the taking of it 7. We have expresse warrant in Scripture for a forme of words and writing of a Covenant which is the very thing we are blamed for see Neh. 9.38 And because of all this we make a sure Covenant and write it seale to it And Nehem. 10.29 to the end of the chap. there are set downe the expresse Articles forme and words of the Covenant that was written and subscribed and sealed by them Let him shew us the like warrant in the word for a Liturgie or set forme of booke prayer for a congregation I much wonder that a grave learned man especiall in such reforming times as these should so farre forget himselfe as to make such parallels and talke still of Liturgies He saith 1. in this Marginall that the Church imposeth that set forme of Covenant invented by one or more upon all the Members of that Church Hee reports in the 9. Article to which this Marginall belongs That the Covenant is ever in one and the same forme of words as well as matter in the same Church Both which are great mistakes 1 To the former Answ though the
I blame him justly or no by perusing the bookes But that you may see how soberly and cautiously his quoted Authors speake of Churches using their liberty I will write their own words Ans to 32. q. 44. Wee conceive every Church hath right from Christ to transact all their Church businesse but marke the cautions If so be they be able and carry matters justly and according to the rules of the word How different are those words from his yet this is the very place he cites You say W. R. you undertake onely to tell a story of New-England Church way but now you make a story of your own and frame it and mould it after your owne fashion You can so adde and alter as to make it speake as you please that wee and our waies may seeme odious to the Churches ☞ Is this a truthing of it in love as you spoke in the last words of your Postscript and dare you pray for a blessing on your booke as in the last words of your preface you doe saying Now the blessing of heaven goe with this poore Pamphlet when it is so stuffed and bumbasted with such fearefull untruths and slaunders Art 3. All which Church matters wee claime power saith he to our selves to doe without any Authority concurrence or assistance of any other Churches or Officers Authority is either immediately from the person Answer that some call coercive and forcing or from the rule and that some call doctrinall no lesse binding then the other The former in transacting Church matters wee use not for want of Scripture grounds that Christ hath given any other Churches or their Officers power over us The latter upon al occasions we improve by calling in the assistance of other Churches and hold our selves bound to follow their counsell as farre as it is grounded on the word Art 6. He saith we hold the Church if she conceives that the Officers doe not use their power well may resume it unto her selfe If he meanes while they abide in their Office they may doe this Answ wee must professe against his relation for if the Officers doe abuse their power the Church exhorts him as a father to fulfill his Ministery received from the Lord as Col. 4.17 and if great neede require they may admonish him and if no other meanes will possibly cure they may at last for incorrigble going on in manifest abuse of his place excommunicate him but in no wiâ—e while he abides in Oâ—fice to resume their power and enter upon his worke And observe him againe quoting his Authour to beare him out in his speeches who is not for him but against him Ans to 32. q. 58. where he saith that no member without breach of order and presuming above his place may doe our Ministeriall acts of Church Governement but the Presbyters may onely doe them Which Ans of ours doth also take off those Marginalls pag. 26. and saves us further labour and part of the 7. Art also that speakes to the same effect He saith Art 7. We hold the Officers are all but the Churches Servants in propriety of speech and the Church the Mistrie That all Officers are the Churches Servants was no strange thing to a Minister farre better then any of us 2 Cor. 4 5. Answer Our selves your servants for Christs his sake But because he must needes keepe his hands inure hee will in this as almost in all his Articles be still adding something of his owne to blurre the businesse Therefore he saith wee hold O ficers but the Churchâ—s servants which word but implyes a vilifying of Ministers and their place whereas we have learned to esteeme them very highly for their workes sake 1. Thes 5.13 and also that they are onely servants nothing but servants whereas we know they are Governours also 2. â—â— adds another expression of his owne in propriety of speech and makes a great stirre in his Marg. on that Article that a Minister should be a servant in propriety of speech whereas it is his owne addition and not our speech Answ The Officer may be said to bee a ruler and a servant too in diverse respects as Heb. 13.17 with 2 Cor. 4 5. And Christ himselfe is both and so is the greatest Prince in the world a servant to the Common weale But his spirit is loath to acknowledge this and labours to evade it by such arguments as the Bishops made use of for their sole power in the Church but wee know to be servants of the Church is no other then to bee for the Church and not the Church for them equally And so he that is a ruler in the Church may be well said to be a servant In this case the maxâ—m of law holds good in Divinity that a King is singulis maior universis minor so the Church Officers are singulis maiores Ecclesiâ minores To Art 9. That every member except women and those under age hath equall power even with the Ministers themselves in propounding obiecting answering and iudiciall decreeing and giving sentence in all matters of the Church whatsoever whether pertaining to Doctrine or practise â—sw The relator of a story especially when hee pretends and promiseth to write nothing materiall but from his cited Authors should bee faithfull ☞ and not make bold grosly to vary from the matter manner words scope and all much lesse to cite Authors that speake against him but if you reade his Author Ans to 32 q. p. 44. the place cited even now you will finde That the Church indeede hath a right within her selfe to transact her owne matters but how according to the rights of the word did the word ever give people liberty equall with the Minister doth it not professedly condemne such doing in the Church and yet this is the only printed Author of our own that wee can come at brought to iustifie this absurd Article Besides all men know that are seen in our wayes it is against our principles to have people propound and give sentence in the Churches decrees these being acts of rule proper to the Officers as Ans to 32. q. 57. 58. plainely speakes and yet he faâ—th we hold the people have power yea equall power and that with the Ministers themselves even in all matters of the Church whatsoever Now what will become of his Marg. on this Art full of exclamation and clamout This body saith he is all an eye all tongue all Governours all teachers contrary to the Apostles rule c. wherein he fights with a shadow and we leave him so to doe 5. He tells us in Art 10. and the Marg. that wee hold all things ought to have a full debate in the presence of the whole society untill all be satisfied Marke his words how large 1 All things 2 A full debate 3 It ought to be so before the whole societie till all be satisfied And not one word we can come at to prove any of these universalls
of error delivered before all the people So as it is a scandall to the people a reproach to the Minister c. all this is his own addition Then for the other cited Author Answer to 32 q. 78 he deales more grosely with him then the former who is in a manner point-blanck against him yet hee boldly gives him up for an Author his words are these we never knew any Minister that did call upon the people thus to doe i. e. to propound questions and such calling upon them is farre from us some thinke the people have a liberty to aske a question upon very urgent and weighty cause none iudge the ordinary practise of it necessary but if not meekely and wisely carried inconvenient if not utterly unlawfull and therefore such asking of questions is seldome used in any in most Churches neere True it is in the times of the opinions some were bold in this kinde but these men are long since gone the Synod and Sermons have reproved this disorder so that a man may now live from one end of the yeere to another in these congregations and not heare any man opening his mouth in such kind of questions These the Authors words ☞ Now good reader do us the favour to give righteous judgement whether these words cited by him make for him or against him where is 1 giving leave 2 a course of giving leave 3 to any 4 to obiect and urge pro and con and 6 which is horribly grosse to implead the Minister of error at the first dash and that openly before all the people c. Whereas his own cited Authors tells him the contrary 1 That it is done not often but seldome 2 Not many questions but a question 3 Not upon sleight but weighty and very urgent grounds 4 Not rashly and boldly but wisely and meekely 5 And this not perâ—mptorily concluded of by all but some only thinke they have a liberty 6 And not that it is now so much done but was for a time by the bold opinionist who are now chased away long agoe See what a vast gulfe betwixt the Author and W. R. Now for him to reade over distinctly all these expressions in this booke for that answer was written to himselfe from godly men in New-England yet to produce it as a proofe for his Art and the Marg. which in common sence is contrary to it I stand amazed at it and wonder with what face he could print it or having done it how he can let his book be kept from the fire thus long Yet further note our Narratour undertakes to relate only such Church-courses as are generally by the Churche in New-England practised as pag. 1. title How then can he with honesty bring in this asking of questions amongst such kind of generall Church courses of ours whereas his Author plainely saith this asking of questions is not Generally practised nor by all the Churches but sildome in any Church and in most Churches never at all and that one may live as he saith from one end of the yeere to another in our congregations and not here any man open his mouth in such kind of questions What will not W. R. boldly attempt against his brethren of the independent way and their Churches that cites these very words I have related to prove such Church courses in New-England as are generally practised amongst us Answer to CHAP. XIIII TO Marg. on the Title Some saith he grow shie of the word independent some utterly renounce it yet most owne it Answer If the word bee rightly taken as in Answer to 32. q. 46. it 's expounded for one Church that is not under the power of another or in subjection to a Presbyterie but as having received power from Christ to governe her selfe according to his lawes Then all accord to it But if the word Independent bee abusively taken as it is often with the vulgar for such a Society as are neither subject to Magistracy nor regard the counsel of other Churches but are a conceipted and selfe-sufficient people that stand onely on their owne leggs Then wee have cause to be shie of a word that may render us odious without cause To Marg. of 1 Art That wee have store of imperative Churches who may command yea compell both members and Ministers to act Ans Another slaunder without ground or proofe or truth which I leave here upon record God our consciences and our Brethren bearing us witnesse how tender our Churches are but to perswade men to act without light much more to command or compell both which very words though the thing required were lawfull are odious in the Churches of Christ most fitly becomming the Synagogues of Antichrist Hath hee a lycense to speake any thing To Art 2. We hold our Church power absolute and imperiall Answ All we use to speake of our Church-power is that it is ministeriall which is farre from absolute and imperiall words fitter for Emperours of this world then the Churches of the Saints I charge it on his conscience as in the sight of God either to make this appeare or else vindicate us as becomes an honest Christian to doe And for his two printed Authors cited for we cannot come at his private letters if there be any one word or shew of ground from them to maintaine his speech Let me beare the shame of it for I here avouch the contrary under my hand To Art 3. and Marg. That we deny all representation of Churches absent and all authoritative deputation of Messengers to act for them â—nsw 1. The Reader may well see it is his own saying not ours for he brings no proofe but from Barrow and Johnson who cannot well give in their testimony for our Church waies in New-England because they never came there yea were in their graves both or one long before ever wee had a beeing in New-England 2. There is no truth in it for we hold a Church may delegate some men and send them forth in their names and stead with authority to act for them in this or that particular businesse of trust as Act. 15.2 And yet he hath boldly now twise or thrise affirmed the same thing of us and brings no proofe at all for it and it is answered before cap. 2. Art 3. Marg. Yet some tells us saith he that Mr. P. and Mr. W. were sent hither by the Churches to negotiate for them c. Answ 1. Some tell us Sir you are a man of judgement and gravity able to instruct others You know you may not blemish your brethren and slâ—nder Churches upon such poore and weake grounds as it is reported I am informed some tell us And yet how oft in your booke have you used this course of dealing towards your bretbren and their Churches Some tell us indeede is warrant enough for people that have no other businesse to make three farthing bookes of and thereby fill the world with tales but oh farre be