que ie suis d'auis que mes seruiteurs tiennent pour tirer fruict de ce saincte oeuure Bon soir mon amy Sachant le plaisir que vous en aurez Vous estes seul a qui l'on le mande Le 5. de May. 1600. Henry Au dessus de la lettre A mon Cousin le Duc d' Espernon THE COPIE OF THE K. OF FRANCE HIS FORMER LETTER TO the Duke of Espernon concerninge the late triall had betwene the B. of Eureux and the Lord Plessis translated into English CHAP. VI. MY Friend The Diocesse of Eureux hath ouercome the Diocesse of Saumur and the sweet manner of proceedinge that hath byn vsed hath taken away all occasion to any Hugenot whatsoeuer he be to say that any force hath byn vsed beside the only force of truth The bearer heerof was present at the combatt who will informe yow what maruayles I haue done therin Certanily it is one of the greatest blowes that hath byn giuen for the Church of God this long while for the manifestation of this error By this meanes we shall reduce more in one yeare of them that are separated from the Church then by any other way in 50. yeares There were a large discourse to be made of each of their actioÌ„s but the same were to long to wryte The bearer shall tell you the manner which I would haue all my seruants to obserue for reapinge fruite of this holy worke Good night my friend And for that I know what pleasure yow will take heerof yow are the only man to whome I haue wrytten yt This 5. of May. 1600. Henry The superscription To my Cosyn the Duke of Espernon EXTRICT DV POSTSCRIPTVM DE LA LETTRE DE CELVY QVI enuoy a ceste Coppie dela lettre du Roy a Rome CHAP. VII Monsieur Iâ— vous enuoyé la coppie de la lettre du Roy qu'il a enuoyé a Monsieur d'Espernon sur la dispute de l'Euesque d'Eureux contre du Plessi-Mornay pour verifier son liure qui s'est de tout trouué faulx s'en est allé cacher comme vn regnard Dieu conduise tout a bonne fin a sa gloire salut des ames An extract of the Postscript of the letter of him that sent this coppy of the forsaid K. letter to the French Embassadour in Rome My Lord. I do send yow heere the coppy of the Kings letter wrytten to the Duke of Espernon about the disputation of the B. of Eureux against Plessis Mornay for iustifyinge of his booke found altogeather false and he is gone to hide him selfe like a Fox God conduct all to a good end for his glory and saluation of mens soules Thus much do wryte the King and his secretary the one to the Duke of Espernon the other to Monsieur Sylary Embassador in Rome both of them present at the conference The Kings letter as yow see is very substantiall yt seemeth his Maiestie was greatly moued himselfe by the seeing and hearing of this combatt For so much as he affirmeth so resolutely that yt was one of the greatest blowes that had byn geuen for the Church of God a long while for discouering the erroneous proceedings of Protestants The secretary also auoucheth as yow see the falshood found in Mornayes booke and that for shame therof he was gone to hide himselfe like a Fox Now shall yow heare three other letters relating more particularly the circumstances of this conference with the Acts successe therof though all very breifely in respect of the Acts themselues THE COPIE OF THE LETTER OF MONSIEVR PERON B. OF EVREVX to the L. Silary Embassadour for the K. of France in Rome the 10. of May 1600. CHAP. VIII My Lord. AT length the victory of the combat betwixt the L. Plessis and me remayneth to the Catholike Church and after many tergiuersations which he vsed for the space of 5. or 6. dayes at Fontayne-bleau I sent him on wednesday the third of May threescore falsifications taken out of his booke to begin the play withall for him to prepare himselfe to answere the next day Of them he chose out 19. the which he went told the King the next day that he had chosen forth examined and found true and that he would loose his life yf any one of them were proued to be falsely cited After dynner the same day in the same place he came forth in the presence of his Maiestie and of 7. or 8. Princes and of the L. Chancelour of France and other officers of the crowne and Counsellors of State Where first his Maiestie declared both by himselfe and by the L. Chancelour that he would not in any wise that in this confereÌ„ce should be handled any point of Catholike Religion wherof he doubted nothinge and knew also that the iudgment therof pertained vnto the Sea Apostolike but only of the particular busynes of the L. of Plessis whether he had falsified the texts of the Fathers or no I added that when Hunnericus K. of the Vandalâ—s would haue had the Catholiks dispute with the Arrians Eugenius Archbishopp of Carthage as Victor of Vtica rehearseth answered that he could not do yt without the consentment of other Bishopps chiefly of the Church of Rome which is head of all others that this my entring into the present conference was not for that I bare lesse respect vnto the Seat Apostolike then that holy Bishop did But because there was no questions of Religion heere to be discussed but only to shew the falsifications of the L. Plessis about the which I was well content to haue the iudgment of the assistants for as much as appertained to the knowledg of Grammer to witt whether the L. Plessis had corrupted the words of the authors or no but not as touching points of diuinity the which the K. Maiestie had already very wisely forbidden vs to treat for that he will not heerin follow the example of K. of Iuda which vsurped the incensour and the function of priesthood but rather of Constantyne Theodose and other religious Emperors in remittinge the decision of Ecclesiasticall matters vnto the Church This done we began to dispute I began to obiect vnto him those places which himselfe had chosen out amongst threescore sent to him by me the day before following therin the same order that he had taken in choosing them out the which all were conuinced of falshood in order as they were proposed sentence was pronounced against him vpon euery place by the heretiks themselues which assisted him there and all with one voyce condemned him The King in this conference hath shewed himselfe so wise so intelligent so affectionate so zealous taking vp the argument against him at euery occasion and pressing him by disputation and so conuincing him of diuers falshoods as he hath shewed manifestly his witt and affection towards the Catholike Religion admirable
Caluyns Religion leading to Turcisme or a comparison of Turkish Religion with Caluinisme The other is of the aforesaid Polonian gentleman Stanislaus Rescius Embassadour and Treasorer for his King in the Kingdome of Naplesâ— where his said worke was printed 4. yeares past as hath byn said to witt in the yeare 1596. and yt is diuided into two bookes the title wherof is this De Atheismis Phalerismis Euangelicorum nostri temporis libri duo quorum prior de fide posterior tractat de operibus eorum Which in English is thus Two bookes of the Atheismes and Phalerismes or crueltyes of the ghospellers of our tymes wherof the first treateth of their faith the second of their works This is the title and I do assure the Reader yf he pervse them with attention and indifferency he will remayne informed by their readinge and not a little astonished to behould what is there alleaged out of the wrytings of Protestants themselues and other authenticall witnesses in this behalfe Of the other worke of Maister VVilliam Reynolds prouinge that Caluyns Religion is worse in condition and lesse probable in reason then that of the Turke hath lesse ground substance therin then the other for all this and much more he declareth in this worke I shall not need to treat heere nor yet giue notice of the booke for that it was written printed very lately in Flanders is no doubt or may be easily in England before this day only I will adde this of the iudgment of strangers to witt that by testimony and asseueration of diuers very learned men of other nations there was neuer wrytten a thinge in that kind and of such an argument more excellent in respect of the infinite variety of hereticall books which he sheweth to haue read and well pondered and for the many inuincible reasons demonstrations which he alleageth for his purpose And so much of this And now I will speake somewhat larger of the fourth reproach and shame accompanyinge comonly heretiks and sectaryes and especially the heads and cheefe therof that wryte bookes which is counterfaytinge deceytfull dealinge falsifyinge and open lyinge but principally in alleaginge antiquity for their purpose wherof I haue occasion by this present story of Plessis Mornay to say somewhat and the accusation of ancient Fathers that call heretiks Falsarij that is falsifiars and corrupters of antiquity occurreth euery where in their books So as the spiritt of old heretiks agreeth with this of our new in this point as well as in many others and if we will consider the cause necessityes of this reproach in like manner we shall find them no lesse euident or forcible then the former for that sectaryes pretendinge antiquity in their doctrine for that otherwise yt would haue no credit findinge all antiquity wholy against them except onlyâ— the antiquity of heretiks and sectaryes which they dare not alleage openly though they follow them they are forced to fayne and forge somewhat of their owne as for example some of the ancient Fathers to be with them or els should they remayne without all shew or colour of honest pretence In which point notwithstandinge they do not agree amonge themselues For that first Martyn Luther their great Father forseeinge this difficulty not willinge at the beginninge to cast himselfe into these two troublesome labyrinthes first of shiftinge of by diuised interpretations those manifold authorityes of Fathers that were to be brought against him and then in finding out other Fathers in his owne behalfe he tooke a more briefe and compendious way which was to deny and contemne them all for so he doth in very many places of his workes protesting at the very beginning almost of all his heresies to wit in the yeare 1521. in an epistle wrytten to a German knight that he was tyed by the authority of no Father though neuer so holy yf he were not approued by the authority of holy scriptures wherof you must imagine himselfe world be iudge and addeth in the same place that the fathers wrytings were full of errors contrary often to themselues and disagreeing the one from the other wrestinge scriptures and the like The same also he saith of Councells in the same place and in the next yeare after this wrytinge against K. Henry the 8. he saith I do oppose against all the testimonyes of fathers of men neuer so holy of Angells and of diuells c. Wherby we may see what accoumpt he made of Fathers and Councells when they were against him And the same did Zuinglius Caluyn and others after him for a tyme when Fathers authorityes plainly were against them and could not be shifted of by sleight interpretation as in their works appeareth and Rescius declareth it notably and largely by manifold examples and places in his tenth Chapter and first booke aforesaid But when this audacity grew in tyme to be very reproachfull some later followers of theirs blushinge therat and desiringe to exercise their witts in a higher kind of subtility they betooke themselues to a more plausible but yet more shamefull and desperate course then these their maisters which was to say that indeed the Fathers and ancient wryters were wholy for them not for vs as the philosopher that would defend that swow was blacke not white And this course tooke first of all Peter martyr in the â—yeare 1549. and third of the raigne of K. Edward the 6. as appeareth by Fox in the last edition of his Acts and Monuments And this perhaps Peter martyr was forced to do at that tyme by commaundement of B. Cranmer and others of the priuy Counsell who appointed his disputation for more authorizing of their new decree in Religion scarse two monethes before agreed vpon would perforce haue the Fathers to be of their side But what successe Peter martyr had in this attempt yt may appeare suâ—â—iciently by the places themselues which Fox alleageth for him out of ten or twelue seuerall Fathers wherof the Reader will scarse find one though the said texts be breefely alleaged truly cyted in all respects but that eyther the words next going beforeâ— or immediatly following or both making wholy against them are purposely left out and others put in or mistranslated And let any man who listeth examine the same and conferre them with the authors bookes themselues he shall find this to be true For I haue examined them with some diligence my selfe as vpon some other occasion herafter may chance appeare but now yt were to long to alleage them in this place I meane the manifest falsifications therin vsed But yf any Protestant in defence of Peter martyr and Iohn Fox hâ—s honour will take vpon him to verify the same and their quotations to be good and without fraud lett him wryte a little pamphlet therof as easily he may they being conteyned in lesse then one page he shall presently
S. Augustine was present and vpon both the said Councells earnest request the same was accursed also by Pope Innocentius the first as testifyeth S. Augustine epist. 90. 92. 93. And this is the first shift Secondly of all the Fathers that spake of this matter against him and S. Augustine by name in almost infinite places he maketh his aduersary to alleage only one text out of the said Father and we must beleeue him for that we haue not his aduersaryes treatise S. Augustines place is lib. 3. de anima cap. 9. but cyteth not his words yet aunswereth them thus To S. Augustine I answere that he speaketh of such as dy in originall sinne and seeme to contemne baptisme This is the most blockish refuge that possibly can be imagined for first all men before baptisme dy in originall sinne and secondly S. Austen speaketh of infants that haue not capacity to contemne baptisme his words are these Noli credere noli dicere noli docere c. do not thou beleeue do thou not say do thou not teach yf thou wilt be a Catholike that infants preuented by death before they be baptized can come to receaue pardon of originall sinne Behould then the forehead of Sutcliffe that would wype of both this and infinite places of S. Augustine more expressely auouchinge the same doctrine by such a sensles sleight Damnari animas◠saith he wryting to S. Hierome ◠si sine baptismo de corpore exierint sancta scriptura sancta testis est Ecclesia that the soules are damned that passe out of this world without baptisme both holy scripture and holy Church is wittnesse now would I demaund of Sutcliffe whether euer he read these places or not yf he did not then must he confesse himselfe to be ignorant or willfull in that he would aunswere S. Augustine without lookinge vpon him yf he did and aunswered as he doth then is he both malitious and shameles But now thirdly to the authority of their communion-booke brought against him by E. O. sayinge that none is saued that is not regenerate by baptisme he answereth thus It is impious to tye Gods grace to Sacraments c. VVe exclude not extraordinary courses Wherin first as yow see he reiecteth plainly the authority of the said Communion-booke that tyeth saluation to regeneration by baptisme secondly yow must remember that the question whether this doctrine of Sutcliffe of extraordinary courses and sauinge men without baptisme be Catholike conforme to the vniuersall doctrine of ancient Fathers or noe wherof he speaketh not one word nor alleageth any one testimony to prooue his opinion Catholike that is to say generall and vniuersall but only saith vve exclude not extroordinary courses and telleth vs not who these vve are for that it cannot be the Church of England which set forth the said communiō booke and consequently hauing neyther the auncient Church nor our Church at this day nor the Church of England to stand with him I would gladly know how he will make his opinion Catholike that is vniuersall And thus much of the third shift The fourth is in his answere to his owne words alleaged against him by E. O. whervnto he aunswereth thus I do confesse that infants dyinge in originall sinne are damned to hell fire but I hope no man will say that all that dy before baptisme albeit they much desired yt and beleeued in Christ Iesus died in originall sinne O slippery euasion our questiō heere is Sir Mathew of infants that cannot desire baptisme For as for others that be of age and do desire yt they may be saued by baptisme in desire as before is graunted Againe your immediate words before in this very sentence doe speake of infants for you say I do confesse that infants are damned to hell fire and what a fellow are yow then which say in the second part of the same sentence albeit they much desire yt and beleeue in Christ Iesus Thirdly yow said a little before that vvant of baptisme did soud infants to hell and now yow say that infants dying in originall sinne are damned to hell fire which though in our sense is all one that hold infants dying without baptisme do dy in originall sinne yet in your sense that hold that infants may dy before baptisme yet freed from originall sinne is altogeather differēt consequētly a meere consenage so to alter your words for deceauing your reader But now we come to the last shifting answere of all which is such and so vnintelligible as no man reading considering the same can otherwise thinke but that the author was either distempered or bereaued of his senses when he framed it I shall relate it in his owne words lett the reader iudge of it He concludeth finally saith he to wit E. O. that seing the vvant of baptisme doth send infants to hell these are Sutcliffes owne words before recyted ergo baptisme is necessary to Saluation but his consequent is weake and of no valew for many dy for want of knowledge and for want of small matters and not only of baptisme and yet God is not necessarily tied to saue none but such as are baptized sicke men dody for want of phisicke and yet is not phisicke absolutely necessary In this place therfore the detector wandreth out of his way yet effecteth nothinge Thus he and heerwith endeth his whole defence vpon this second charge giuen him by E. O. and suerely yf he wrote yt not more then halfe a sliepe or when he was greatly distracted in other matters I know not what to thinke or say of yt Many saith he dye for want of knowledge for want of small matters not only of baptisme Eyther he meaneth heere of eternall or temporall death yf of eternall how can yt be caused by the want of small matters yf of temporall how is it caused by want of knowledge or how agrees it with the death caused by want of baptisme which is eternall how agreeth yt also with sendinge to hell which is to endure euerlastingly againe yf a man dy precisely or only for want of phisicke then was phisicke absolutely necessary to saue that mans life otherwayes he did not dy absolutely for want of phisicke so wheras he accuseth the detector for wandringe out of the way and effectinge nothinge this man reeleth vp and downe in the way and effecteth his owne disgrace and shame with all readers and lookers on And now by the examination of these 2. places yow may see the fashion of this mans answering and how easy a matter it is and may be for any man to take vpon him the answering of all aduersaryes whatsoeuer in this manner and by these two examples yow may ghesse at all the rest And albeit I would gladly end heere hauing byn longer then I purposed yet can I not without examining one place more which is the fourth in order concerning prayers
therof and yet would he auouch that no true Catholike had vsed the same but being reprehended for yt and told of his lyinge by his aduersary diuers Fathers cited for proofe therof and his owne Maister Caluyn and his brother VVillett for acknowledginge the same yet commeth he now to affirme and print yt againe in his second edition of his chalenge and dissembleth peruerteth and shifteth of the authorityes both of the said Fathers Caluyn himselfe as though they had neuer ben obiected against him And what will yow say to this manner of dealinge will you aduenture your soule with such a man or will yow giue creditt any more to his fond crakinge or vauntinge aboue mentioned But we are ouerlong in this third part cannot well get out of it through the multitude of aduantages that Sutcliffe geueth vs in pursuinge him in this his chase of defendinge himselfe yet must we sound retreat and say only a word or two of the fourth part of this his new booke conteyninge as yow haue heard a heap or fardell of recriminations gathered togeather against auncient Popes Councells synods historiographers and other Catholike wryters and lastly against Cardinall Bellarmyne Cardinall Baronius and F. Parsons by which ostentation of names and authors he would make men beleeue that all the world were full of corruptions and falsifications in wrytinge and consequently that those of his and of his fellowes are little to be respected but when the occasion shall come to aunswere this second edition at large the differences wil be shewed and how vainly this little enuious mouse hath gone about to gnibble at Catholike authors edges of their garments particularly at the wrytings of the most famous learned and honourable men of our tyme Cardinall Bellarmine and Cardinall Baronius who haue so beaten downe heresy with their most excellent works as by allusion we may say of them in respect of Sutcliffe ipsi conterunt caput tuum tu vero insidiaris eorum calcaneis they haue broken thy head and thou doest byte at their heeles Of the third which is F. Persons and the obiections heere brought against his wrytings we had thought to haue spoken somewhat more particularly but lacke of tyme and roome maketh vs also to albreuiate this yet somewhat for example sake shal be said Sutcliffe nameth two books of his the first entituled A briefe discourse conteyninge reasons why Catholiks refuse to go to Church The next is called A Christian directory and commonly knowne by the name saith he of Parsons Resolution Against the former booke he bringeth two reasons as wise as his head can deuise the one that he promised to make three parts of that booke and performed but one abusinge saith he both his frends and aduersaryes with his false promises The other reason is saith he for that to persuade men not to go to ProtestaÌ„ts Church must needs stand vpon this supposition that the Popes Religion is true and therfore he should first haue proued this principle before he had gone about to giue reasons to stand stedfast therin But now saith he yf Parsons can say nothinge why the Religion in England is not Catholike and Apostolicall then all his reasons fall to the ground These two reasons do well declare what a man of worth Sutcliffe is And not to shew on my parte distrust in the Readers iudgement I will not go about to refute such vanityes For if this last reason haue any force yt proueth also that no Protestant Preacher or wryter may exhort any of his Religion to constancy perseuerance patience humility or any other vertue except he proue first all that Religion to be true But lett vs passe to the other booke perhaps his obiections wil be stronger against that His directory also saith he is a most idle and vayne discourse so idle and vaynè do seeme all treatises of piety to this prophane minister yt should consist of three parts but as the fashion is of three promised he keepeth backe two performeth the third very simply This is his censure of that booke And presently as he is fertile in inuention though foolish in his election he commeth with eyght choise accusations against yt The first is for that he proueth there is a God and that Christian Religion is true aboue all other Religions and that he treateth against dispayre of Gods mercyes tentations and too much feare of persecution VVhich rather doth hinder a man saith Sutcliffe from leading a Christian life then help him to resolue The second That the greatest part saith he is taken out of Loartes Stella Granatensis and other such authors The third for that yt argueth Catholikes to be badd Christians that they must be taught there is a God hell heauen and the like The fourth That Sutcliffe doth not find that yt hath made hitherto any one Christian or directed him to the way of lyfe but many yong men to the gallowes The fifth that yt hath not brought Father Persons him selfe yet to a good resolution nor to enter into Religion The sixt For that his discourse to proue that there is a God and but one true Religion and that there is a heauen hell among Christians already well persuaded is impertinent The seauenth For that yt is diuided into speculation and practice as yf saith he a man could practise that is not entred into the exercise of Religion or as yf resolution were not farre differeÌ„t from practise The eight last for that yt is fraught with idle discourses the principall point so weakely proued that yt will rather make Christians to doubt of Religion then atheists to beleeue These are Sutcliffes reasons which shew the mans depth and conforme to these are his obiections picked out of the forsaid two books about allegation wherof I would gladly haue sett downe some halfe adozen at least for example so to haue seene the weight and substance therof but that I am forced to make an end referring my selue to a fuller exameÌ„ when his reply shall come forth Now then only I am to aduertise the Reader that he weigh with himselue what manner of man Sutcliffe is in these his wrytings he vaunteth and chalengeth as yow see as yf he were agyant and when he cometh to the gryping he is iust nothing he offereth to answere for all as Iewell Fox Peter Martyr Ridley Fulke Plessis Mornay whome els yow will besides but when yt cometh to the triall he is able neither to make good for them nor for himselfe and is iust like a knight of the post that will offer to be surety for ten thousand pounds when all his owne substance is not worth ten shillings His writings are loose ragged negligent barrâ—n obscure and vnsauery without substance either of learning prudeÌ„ce sharpnes or good stile yf yow looke them ouer yow shall find them for the most part fraught furnished only with bare assertions
follow be extant in the French tongue and consequently like also to be in England before this day yet for that euery man vnderstandeth not that language nor is it so probable that many men will take the paynes to translate diuulge the same to such as may haue neede or desire to reade it I iudged the labour not vnprofitable to performe the same from hence But besides there is another reason of more moment and more peculiar to this place to witt that albeit the former printed chalenges might come to Englishmens hands by other meanes yet the combat it selfe with the true issue therof togeather with the manner of the triall and particulars occurred therin which haue byn wrytten hither by most authenticall partyes as vnto the place where accompt of such affayres concerninge Religion is wont to be giuen could not or would not perhapps so fully and sincerely be related in England as the truth of the whole action requireth the reason wherof each man will easily coÌ„sider These then being the causes that moued me to take this little paine founded as yow see in the zeale of truth and fidelity I haue thought good to deliuer faithfully vnto you such letters as haue come to my hands about this affayre though not all For that diuers letters wrytten out of France by diuers other partyes reportinge the selfe same thing I thought not needful for me to print nor to multiply relations without necessity but to content my selfe only for breuityes sake with the letter of the K. Maiestie himselfe and with one other of the Bishop that was an actor in the cause wrytten to the Kings Embassadour in this place and to some other Cardinalls besides by them to be exhibited vnto his Holynes to whome the Bishopp well knew that the selfe same thing would be wrytten by others also lesâ—e interessed in the matter then himselfe and more then this that his said letters and reporte would be returned to France againe where all aduaÌ„tage would be taken against him by the aduersary yf in any one point he should exceed the bare truth in his narration which consideration may assure vs that he would haue great care to relate all points both truly and modestly as in his letter that ensueth may be seene that he doth and the same may be gathered also plainely by the K. letter it selfe to the Duke of Espernon which after we shall relate But yet besides these two letters there was another wrytten two dayes after the said Bishops letter by the Popes Nuntio in Paris vnto Cardinall Aldobrandino and by him to be deliuered to his holynes wherin is related verified though in very few words the very same narration which the Bishop wryteth as by the extract therof heerafter sett downe appeareth And this now were sufficient for a preface only to this matter were yt not that I haue thought expedient also to touch breifely two other points First what these two persons are which had the combat and then the briefe summe of that which passed betwene them therein For first the L. Plessis Morney his name and person is well knowne in England for that aboue 20. yeares past I saw my selfe a booke of his intituled Of the Church and notes therof translated into English and much esteemed by protestants of that time for that he wryteth more cunningly and couertly and is more plausible in shew both of scriptures Fathers then commonly other wryters of his Religion then were And for that he is a noble man borne and of the laity and not vnlearned in diuers languages and in great creditt for many yeares with this King of France whose Embassadour he was in England whilst he was yet a protestant and his Maiestie King only of Nauarre and now since his comminge to the kingdome of France much trusted also and vsed by him in his ciuill affayres and in gouernment of the towne and country of Saumur For these causes I say and for that he hath wrytten many bookes he is accompted euery where for one of the cheeife champions and head pillars of Protestant Religion in France wherby this his disgrace so notoriously receaued in that thinge wherin he made publike profession to be exact to witt in true and playne dealinge must needs open the eyes of such as are discreet and desirous in deed to follow truth and decline from falshood and so it did vs after yow see The B. of Eureux on the other side named Monsieur Person is a person no lesse eminent markable both for that his parents being great Protestants himselfe also for many yeares he being a man also of great wyet extraordinary memory and by reason of his state of life more occupied in studyes as is probable then the other comminge afterward by readinge and by Gods especiall grace to be a Catholike he became so zealous earnest and ardent therin as none do more when they are full informed that his greatest indeauours since his conuersion haue byn to conuert also others and to impart that light which God hath bestowed vpon him to as many as possibly he can In which respect the K. Maiestie of France hauinge loued him much and esteemed also before when he was a Protestant and no lesse synce that he hath byn a zealous Catholike and knowinge him to be both learned faithfull sincere made choyce of him for his especially Embassadour in Rome in the yeare 1595. to treat his great affayre for his reconciliation to the Catholike Church which hath come to that happy issue which â—ll the world seeth both for the good of his â—arson people and crowne And thus much of these 2. persons who being both of them so gratefull and well liked of the King as I haue shewed his Maiesties indifferency in iudgmeÌ„t also betwene them both the truth of the cause only excepted must needs be voyd of all suspition and consequently his sentence afterward prononced on the one side as by his letter appeareth must in reason be thought to haue proceeded of the manifest difference of the said cause and force of truth it selfe which he discouered vpon that triall Now then to speake a word or two of the action as it passed you must vnderstand that about Christmasse last there came forth a booke in Paris of the aforsaid Monsieur Plessis against the Masse which booke making shew as the fashion is of great aboundance and ostentation of Fathers Councells Doctors and storyes for his purpose great admiration seemed to be conceaued therof and the Protestants euery where began to triumph of so famous a worke published in their behalfe Whervpon diuers Catholike learned men tooke occasion presently to examine the said booke finding many most egregious deceyts shiftes and falsifications therin diuers bookes were wrytten against it one in particular by a French Iesuite discouering at least a thousand falshoods of his part All the preachers of Paris in like manner
the whole lent followinge were occupyed for the most part in refutinge and shewinge the falshood of this booke duringe which tyme many Protestants of accounte were either conuerted or greately moued heer with and amonge other one Monsieur Sainct-Mary du Monte a principal noble man o◠Normandy who frequenting the preaching of one F. Angelus a Capuchin friar borne a great noble man and named before his entrance into Religion Monsieur du Bouchage brother to the late Duke of Ioyeus whose state he had of late inherited his said brother being dead but left the same for that other vocation of a poore and humble seruant of God And albeit afterward vpon necessity of the said temporal state which he had left he was forced for some yeares to take a secular life vpon him againe and to mennage armes as he did by licence of the Supreme Pastor of Gods Church yet after publike affayres once accommodated he retired himselfe backe to his Religious habitt habitation againe where he liueth now a most vertuous life preacheth with great zeale singular edification of all sorts of men well sheweth that his mind is superior to all wordly welth promotion And these are examples that are not found lightly among Protestants but are reserued as peculiar to Christs Catholike Church where the dew of heauenly grace continually falling worketh often such extraordinary effects And thus much of him By this godly mans sermons then was Monsieur Sainct-Mary at length conuerted the experience of this triall not a little helping thervnto as after shall appeare and made a good Catholike with no small edification of all men in respect of the great humility and zeale he vsed in his returne to Gods Church and with much comfort of the K. himselfe to whome first before all other he vttered his resolutiō And heervpon as well his Maiestie as also the noble men that were Protestants and namely the Duke of Bouillon Monsieur Rosny Monsieur Digiers and other began to call vpon this triall of Monsieur Plessis his booke for that it seemed to touch all their honours and of their Religion especially when the B. of Eureux had protested vpon his honour in the pulpit that he could shew more then 500. falsifications in the same booke for his part Vpon which offers made as well by him as others there ensued the chalengs heerafter following The issue wherof was this that when vpon the 4. of May the K. being at his palace of Fountayne-bleau had commaunded both partyes aforesaid to be present and their bookes to be brought with them for this triall to be made in his owne presence Monsieur Plessis seemed to shrinke and to seeke all delayes possible eyther to auoyde the same or to bring it to some longer examination by going ouer all his bookes and works leafe by leafe lyne by lyne as you shall heare him demaund presently but this being denyed by the B. cut of by the K. expresse cōmandement he appeared at last vpon the day aforsaid with some 4. or 5. Ministers on his side But the day precedent before this the B. to deale more plainly and shew frendshipp sent vnto him threescore places taken out of his booke vpon which he meāt to presse him and as his words are to begin the play wishinge him to come well prouided in the same Of which threescore Monsieur Plessis chose out nynteene that seemed to him most defensible and vpon which he said he would ioyne the combat adding moreouer that he would leese his life yf he were conuinced therin But the next day the triall being begon vpon the first place and that found false he would haue passed to the second but the B. refused so to do except the deputyes and iudges there present would first subscribe and testifie that this first place was falsified which at length they did as well in this as in the rest there examined and Monsieur Plessis remayned in that pittifull plight which afterward yow shall heare by the B. and other mens letters vnto which I remitt yow beseechinge almighty Cod that this so notorious an accident may worke that consideration with yow as the moment importāce of the marter requireth And so to his holy prouidēce I commit yow from Rome the 10. of Iune 1600. THE CHALENGE OR PROVOCATION MADE BY THE L. Plessis Mornay vnto the L. Peron Bishopp of Eureux the 20. of March 1600. CHAP. II. THE L. of Plessis doth demaund and require that my L. Bishop of Eureux and all other that blame or accuse him to haue vsed in his bookes sett forth any false citations will vouchsafe to ioyne with him for subscribinge and presenting a most humble request vnto the K. Maiestie to intreate him most humbly to ordaine and name such and so many as shall please his Maiestie being men of sufficient learning vertue before whome the said L Plessis may verifie from leafe to leafe from lyne to lyne all authorityes which he hath cited in his said books And that this triall be made by such copyes and bookes as haue byn printed in those places and in those vniuersityes which they of the Roman Church hould not for suspected In wittnesse wherof I the aforesaid Plessis Mornay haue heere put to my hand seale At Paris the 20. of March in the yeare one thousand six hundred THE ANSWERE OF THE B. OF EVREVX to the former Chalenge the 25. of March 1600. CHAP. III. HAVING receaued good Reader this Chalenge wherof not only the report and brute but the copyes also themselues and already spread abroad wrytten and subscribed by the L. of Plessis and consideringe that this is not a chalenge of one priuate man to another but rather of one party or side against the other it seemed that the interest of the commō cause of Gods Church did not permitt eyther to lett it passe without answere or to answere it secretly For as the end of this his offer is in case it be refused by such refusall and sylence of Catholiks to gaine a publike iustification of his books and wrytinges so ys it conuenient that may answere to the same be also publike that the enemyes of Gods Church do not gett that aduantage as to publish one thing conceale the other And therfore to the end that both heauen and earth may see and behould how I do proceed in this matter I make yt knowne by this my hand wryting both to him and to all other that shall read the same that I do accept of his offer and chalenge and do require of him againe to cause the same to be put in execution and not to end only in words And for my part that all hinderance therof may be remoued I protest that I am presently ready and do desire out of hand to come to the very point of shewinge the falshoodes without byndinge my selfe to that large wearisome methood of examining his late
of the same Code or els he is a very superficiall fellow and yf he saw yt and yet alleaged it as he doth his falshood is intollerable But he persisting in denyall that he was bound to looke the law it selfe in the Code but that it was sufficient to follow Crinitus his allegation therof the iudges for compassion as it seemeth after consultation among themselues gaue this sentence Que il auoit veritablement allegué Crinitus mais que Crinitus â—'estoit abusé That Monsieur Plessis had truly alleaged Crinitus but that Crinitus was abused Which had byn some excuse yf Plessis had byn a simple yonge scholler but being the man he is and taketh himselfe to be yt is hard to say where the abuse was greater eyther in him or Crinitus for so much as in his text he alleaged not Crinitus but the Emperors themselues and insulted therby ouer Catholiks as yow haue heard though in his margent he quoted Crinitus which was little to the purpose knowinge that he lyed as must be presumed that he did and cannot well be auoyded The eight Place examined out of S. Bernard about honouringe our Lady The L. Plessis being desirous to make a florish against Catholiks for geuing to much honour as he saith to our Lady he alleageth a sentence out of S. Bernard in the 604. page of his booke in these words S. Bernard saith he wryteth of the virgin her selfe in his 174. epistle that she hath no need of false honours for so much as she is full of true and this is not to honour her but to take away her honour the feast of her conception was not well inuented So he In which words the B. accused Plessis to haue vsed as great falshood as in the former passages for that he had guilfully patched togeather two different sentences of that epistle wrytten in seuerall places to make one to his purpose after the fashion of Centons of Homer Virgill and other poets and had so recyted them as they might seeme but one and moreouer had cutt of the sentence that weÌ„t betwene them was immediatly annexed to the former conteyned the decision of the whole question to witt inventrix of grace mediatrix of saluation c. For better vnderstaÌ„ding wherof must be noted that Mensieur Plessis a little before had accused S. Anselme of impiety for calling the blessed Virgin Inuentricem gratiae mediatricem salutis restauratricem saeculorum sayinge that these praises and honours were false and immoderate For proofe wherof he alleaged Saint Bernard as though he had byn of a contrary opinion to Anselmus and to the Catholiks of these dayes in that he disallowed false honours giuen to our Lady for which he cyted the passage before mentioned made of 2. seuerall sentences tied togeather cutting out from the middle therof these words of S. Bernard Magnifica gratiae inuentricem mediatricem salutis restauratricem saeculorum c. Do thou magnifie this inuentrix of grace this mediatrix of Saluation and restorer of the world c. Which are the very same words that Anselmus did vse before him and for reprouing wherof S. Bernard was alleaged so as two or 3. falshoods were vrged out of this place against him First that of two senteÌ„ces are guilfully made one Secondly that the principall clause was left out of purpose and thirdly that S. Bernard was alleaged to ouerthrow that which expressely he coÌ„firmeth To the first Plessis answered that in leauinge out that sentence he did no more then the Apostles did who alleaged some tymes seuerall sentences of the old testameÌ„t togeather as one text But the Bishop replied that the Apostles might do yt for that they had the selfe same spiritt which the wryters of the old testament had and therfore could not go from their true meaning but that we shall neuer find the Apostles to alleage two places of scripture contrary to the wryters mynd and to leaue out in the middest that which maketh most to the purpose for declaring their meaning as Plessis hath done heere in S. Bernard To the second third points about clippinge of the sentence in the middle and alleaginge S. Bernard against his owne meaninge Plessis endeauoured to make certayne answers to shew that the sentence which he had left out made nothinge to the purpose which he had in hand which the Bishopp graunted yf his purpose was to deceaue his Reader as no doubt but yt was but otherwise yf he had meant truth yt must needs be much to the purpose to putt yt in for that it ouerthroweth directly as yow see all that which Plessis would haue proued by S. Bernards authority against S. Anselme And finally the Bishop after diuers other cauills answered returned to the first matter againe and to affirme as at the beginning that Monsieur Plessis had not dealt truly and sincerely in this allegation of Saint Bernard but that he should haue alleaged the sentences seuerally as they lay in the booke and not haue left out the principall clause that went betwene them yf he had dealt truly Wherfore he desyringe iudgment vpon this passage the Acts do sett it downe in these words Monsieur le Chancelier auec l'aduis des deputés prononâ—a qu'il eust esté bon que il eust fait The L. Chancelour with the aduise of the deputyes did pronounce that yt had byn good that Monsieur Plessis had done so as the Bishop of Eureux required which is as much to say that in not doinge so he behaued himselfe but badly which was a checke of no small moment in such a matter The ninth Place examined out of Theodorete about Images The last place that was tryed in this first daies conference was out of Theodorete vpon the 113. Psalme cyted by Monsieur Plessis in the 118. page of his booke against the vse of Images in these words God maketh what he pleaseth but Images are such as pleaseth men to make them they haue the places or habitations of senses but haue no sense indeed and in this much lesse them flyes and fleas and such other vermine and yt is iust that all that adore them do leese both reason and sense and be like vnto them Heere the Bishopp obiected two manifest and willfull falsifications First for that he had against the expresse meaninge of Theodorete translated the Greeke word Idoll for Image which Theodorete did cleerly distinguish and secondly for that he cut of a plaine clause in the middest wherby the author of purpose did expound himselfe to witt these wordes adored by pagans and adored for Gods so as this declared euidently that he had no true meaninge To this Plessis answered that as for the words Idoll and Image they were all one which he said he could shew both out of scriptures and Fathers The other replyed that albeit accordinge to their Etymologye in Grammer the Greeke word Eicoon and Eidoolon do sometyme signifie the same and
side began as hath byn said to enter into another cogitation to thinke whether yt were not best by this occasion to seeke out the truth of matters indeed and that without pertinacity or passion for so much as yt was a matter concerninge the eternall saluation or damnation of their soules And this happy course amonge others tooke as in part before yow haue vnderstood the aforsaid noble man of Normandy Monsieur Sainct-Mary du Mont who being a great Protestant before was first moued towards Catholike Religion partly by the Sermons of Monsieur Buchage brother to Duke Ioyeus made afterward a Capuchin friar as hath byn declared which Sermons were principally against the falsifications of Plessis in his booke against the Masse partly also by the sight of some of the said falsifications themselues shewed vnto him in priuate by the said B. of Eureux before the conference but he was fully conuerted by the trialll it selfe and became afterward a zealous Catholike But more notorious and admirable was the conuersion of the L. Fresnes Canay cheife president for the Protestant party in the parlament Chamber called Demy party in Languedocke chosen by Monsieur Plessis himselfe for chiefe deputy on his party for this conferēce who taking the same course in enforminge himselfe found matters so euident as he became a Catholike vpon the sight of this triall and that with such feruour as he would not be absolued secretly of his heresie before held as for respect vnto his dignity and place was offered but would needs abiure publikely in the hands of the B. of Paris and so he did being a very learned man in his profession at this day is Embassadour for his Christian Maiestie with the State of Venice where his wife in like manner the last yeare by his owne especiall meanes she being a Lady of much nobility was conuerted also both of them remayned most zealous Catholiks Which two examples of Monsieur Sainct-Mary and Mousieur President Fresnes both of them being learned and earnest Protestants all their life before did greatly mooue the King himselfe for his comfort and confirmation in Catholike Religion but no one thing so much as his being present at the forsaid Conference and so he is said to haue often confessed afterward for that he saw there that which he could neuer haue imagined to witt that men of learning iudgment would willfully for maintayninge of faction wryte and publish that which they must needs know in their consciences to be false He cōsidered that these 9. places there examined were picked out by Plessis himselfe of 60. sent him by the Bishop and that these 60. were but a parcell of 500. which the said B. had bound himselfe to exhibite in 10. dayes to be discussed and that by all probability the forsaid 9. were of the least falsified and easiest to be defended of all the rest at least wise of the first 60. for that otherwise Monsieur Plessis would not haue chosen them Wherfore hauinge seene by experience that no one of those 9. was able to be defended from plaine and willfull falshood he imagined what would fall out in the rest if the conference had gone forward and if all should passe as in these 9. throughout the 500. there ready to be exhibited yea in 3500. more which the Bishop said he had gathered out and offered to bynd himselfe to conuince them of no lesse falsity and imposture then those nyne and all this out of one boooke These things I say laid togeather his Maiestie had good cause to thinke what may be thought of that mans conscience that wryteth and printeth such a booke in matters of Religion Moreouer his Maiestie could not but remember what tales the said Plessis and other such fellowes had told him against Catholiks Catholike Religion for many yeares whilst he was yet a Protestant to witt that they had no truth on their side no antiquity noe true ancient authority but all was for them and their new pretended Religio◠He could not forgett also what sollemne protestations they were accustomed to make of their owne sincerity both in wrytinge and preachinge and especially Plessis in this last contētion about his booke before yt came to the tryall offering to leese his life and honour yea to burne his owne hand yf any one place were proued to be wittingly corrupted or falsified which yet was so euidently conuinced by the triall not in one only but in euery one of the nine places as no man of reason could deny yt and the deputyes of his owne party gaue sentence against him Wherfore this hauing so fallen out and the Bishop of Eureux protestinge of his side that the places of greatest corruption remayned yet behind aboue twenty fold more in number then those that had byn examined seing also the shamfull flight of Monsieur Plessis from the continuation of the combatt and the shamelesse discourse cast abroad by him without a name wherin many matters of fact well knowne to his Maiesty were denied affirmed or disguised according to passion most contrary to the knowne reall truth therof All these considerations I say many other concurring togeather and representing themselues to his Maiesties wisdome made him to feele infinite comfort in the happy resolution he had taken of being a Catholike and to contemne from that day forward all contentious wrytings of factious sectaryes that care not what they say or wryte so they may therby hould vp their sect and faction Neyther did this euent of Plessy Mornayes conferēce worke those effects only for the openinge his Maiesties eyes and vnderstanding in Religion but of many more besides throughout France wherof though I be not so particularly informed as many others bee yet diuers persons of marke could I name besides the former two that receaued like light grace from almighty God by the same meanes and of great Hugonots became good Catholiks as the L. Baron Saligniac Liefetennant for the K. of the countrey of Lymoge togeather with his wife daughter of the Chauncelour intituled Del Hospital and sister to the Archbishopp of Ais. The L. Baron du Bonneuald a great noble man in Lymosin togeather with another Baron of Gascoigne whose name occurreth not at this present though I haue seene the narration of his conuersion wrytten out of France Monsieur du Sansay Entendent ouer the Kings Finances in France Diuers cheefe learned men also and among them some Ministers as namely Monsieur Caiette late Minister and Preacher to the Kings sister marryed to the Prince of Loraine togeather with diuers of her cheefe officers amongst which was Monsieur du lac de Barn Monsieur Rebeul Monsieur Sponde th' elder two great learned men and another Sponde brother to the former no lesse learned who at this day hath the care of the Popes library in Rome togeather with a nephew of Iohn Caluyn conuerted entertayned like wise by his
humâ— had byn left out seing both Epiphanius and the Councell of Eliberis in Spaine diuers other Fathers had condemned Images before But why had not O. E. cyted the places out of Epiphanius those other Fathers which condemned paintinge of Images that we might haue read them The B. of Eureux did cyte both in the conference it selfe and in his refutation of Plessis discourse many auncient Fathers expresse words both before and after this law was made of Theodosius and Valenâ—inian named heere againe ignorantly by O. E. as the law of Theodosius and Valens to witt the authorityes of Eusebius Chrysostome Hierome Cyrill Prudentius Paulinus S. Gregory Nissen S. Gregory Nazianzen and others all allowinge the pious vse of images in their dayes yea and an other expresse law of the same Emperors Theodosius and Valentinian is also of him alleaged coÌ„maunding the signe of the Crosse to be put in Churches how chaunceth it that the Minister heere also pulleth downe his hat ouer his eyes and will not see nor aunswere any one of these authorityes yow may easily gheasse the reason And as for the Councell of Eliberis in Spaine yt being a prouinciall Councell of 19. Bishops only about the yeare 305. they prohibited nothing but that Images should not be painted in those dayes vpon walles both in respect of the indecency corruption that came therby vnto them by the moisture of the said walles somewhat contemptible to the pagans and heretikes yet liuing among them as also to the end that being painted in tables rather then vpon the said walles Christians might carry them away as they did other Ecclesiasticall ornaments when persecution fell out and not leaue them to the spoyle and dirision of the persecutors And this reason is gathered out of the words of the constitution it selfe confirmed by the practise both of that tâ—me after And so much of this place O. E. hauing borrowed this obiection of the Councell of Eliberis out of Plessis reply in his discourse vpon the place though in the Conference he came out with yt and had his full answere vpon the 9. place out of Theodorete which O. E. heere dissembleth and replyeth no one word as hath bene said to this or to any of the authorityes alleaged there by the Bishop for the auncient vse and honour of Images The eyght Place out of S. Bernard First yt is to be noted that this 8. passage being by error of the aforsaid french wrytten copy sent from Paris placed in the 9. roome by him that sett forth the said passages is restored heere by vs againe vnto his proper place accordinge to the Acts of the conference and Plessis reply which O. E. also followeth without mencioninge the error which is an argument that he had read all and so much greater is his shame that he commeth so bare weake to play the Aduocate after much better matter vttered before by Plessis himselfe who was accused vpon this place as before yow haue seene for tyinge togeather fraudulently two different places of S. Bernard as making against the honouring of our blessed Lady and persidiously leauinge out in the myddest that clause of the Father which being in the text annexed to the former of the two senteÌ„ces made all cleere yf yt had byn left in and ouerthrew the whole drift of Plessis cauill the clause was Magnifie the inuentrix of grace the mediatrix of Saluation and the restorer of the world Vpon which deceytfull dealing after many corners sought in vaine to runne out and escape Plessis had sentence against him But lett vs see what releefe the new attorney bringeth As yf yt were necessary saith he vvhere diuers places are alleaged out of one author to wryte out all that cometh betwixt one the other Lo a quicke dispatch of the matter But I would aske O. E. a case of conscience as professinge also diuinity which is this yf when that which goeth betweene conteyne the very substance soule of the matter or controuersy as heere yt doth whether in such a case yt be lawfull to leaue yt out or noe or whether this be properly falshood and falsification For yf yt be not then we may peruert the Pater noster or any prayer or peece of scripture and make yt seeme blasphemous And let the reader marke that O. E. hath no euasion heere but most absured Yet lett vs heare him further for Plessis excuse He alleageth Bernard saith he not as an authenticall witnesse but as a man fauouringe his aduerse party being nourished in monasticall errors and superstitions Well Syr and for that S. Bernard did not fauour him in Religion as no Saint euer did is it therfore lawfull to falsifie and corrupt his words and sense We know well that both yow and hee do alleage the words of S. Bernard and other Catholike wryters as the diuell doth scriptures which bynd not him but others against whome he alleageth them and so Plessis alleaged Scotus and Durandus before but as the prouerbe is A man should not bely the diuell And no lesse falshood and corruption of mynd is discouered in falsifyinge authors whome they creditt not as others whome they credit Wherfore let vs heare his conclusion vpon this place He saith that S. Bernard and we do not agree about honors to be giuen to our lady as in the feast of her conception in callinge her Mediatricem salutis and that both he and Epiphanius wrytinge against the heretiks called Collyridians do much mislike the honours which we giue to the blessed Virgin All which are toyes answered before in the examen of this place for so much as concerneth S. Bernards agreement and ours but for the foolish women called Collyridians condemned by Epiphanius and by the whole Church for offeringe sacrifice to our Lady this cauiller hath byn answered so often to witt that yt appertayneth nothinge to our controuersie and this in diuers bookes now out against him as only lacke of iudgment matter as it seemeth haue induced him to obiect yt heere againe he hauinge byn foyled therin and made to see that Epiphanius expressely in that place honoureth highely our El. Lady and denyeth only diuine honour vnto her And not that which the Catholike Church doth giue vnto her The 9. and last Place out of Theodorete The charge of falsifying laid to Plessis vpon this passage of Theodorete was that he cyting a place of this author in his commentary vpon the Psalmes against pagan Idolls Plessis did fraudulently so alleage the same as yf he had spoken yt of Christian Images for which purpose he vsed two sleights the first in translating the Greeke word Idoll by the Latyn word Image the second by cutting of these words Idolls adored by pagans and adored for Gods For excuse of which two faâ—sifications when Plessis had vsed diuers shifts as well by some shew of proofe that Idolls and Images may
somtymes be taken for the same and then that the clause omitted was not of such importance after both these refuges largely confuted by the Bishopp as in part yow may see before vpon the examen of this place sentence was giuen against him by consent of all the deputyes which O. E. would now gladly haue reuersed Let vs see his good reasons and arguments he bringeth for the same To the first obiection of Translating falsely Images for Idolls O. E. first answereth thus As yf euery one saith he that doth translate amisse were to be charged with falsification or as yf all badd translations of the old Latyn interpreter of the Bible were so many falsifications And is not this a substantiall answere we do not say Syr Mathew that all erroneous translations be falsifications yf they be of meere error without malice but yf yt be with plaine intention to deceaue the reader and to make him apprehend one thing for another in fauour of their heresies then can yt not be denyed but that yt is falsification and wicked deceyte as heere now to translate the word Idoll in Theodorete by the word Image leauinge out those other words adored by the pagans for Gods wherby his meaninge was declared that he meant not of Christian Images but of pagan Idolls Was not this deceyt in Plessis and was not this cosenage in willfull corruption resolue yow the case out of your diuinity And where our English Sectaryes at this day in their translatioÌ„s of scripture in their Bibles do translate one and the selfe same word out of Hebrew Greeke and Latyn diuersly accordinge as yt serueth to their purposes is it not truly falsification as for example the selfe same Greeke word Idoll and Idolator they translate in some places so and in other Image and Imageworshippers the Greeke word signifyinge tradition whersoeuer traditions are reprehended they translate yt tradition but whersoeuer they are commended yt is turned into ordinances instructions c. Whersoeuer Priests are reprehended or spoken euill of there the word Priest is neuer omitted but where they are spokeÌ„ well of there must come in the words Elders Ministers and the like Though the Greeke Hebrew words be the selfe same as in the other place And almost infinite other such examples you may read learnedly laid togeather in the discouery of Maister Gregory Martyn of hereticall corruptions in translation of the scriptures And thus much to O. E. his first answere let vs see his second Besides this saith he Maister Plessis offered to prooue and most true it is that euery Image hauing idolatrous or heathen worshipp done vnto yt is Idolum And who denyeth this Syr Mathew can yow or yours proue that the reuerence we do to the sacred Images of Christ his Saints is idolatrous or heathenist Then may yow condemne all those auncient Fathers with the vniuersall Church of their tyme for heathenist Idolators which are alleaged by the Bishop in his reply to Plessis discourse and shewed out of their owne words testimonyes that they vsed Images with this Christian hononrâ— and worshipp which we talke of in the most florishing time of Gods Church wherof themselues were the cheefest flowers as namely to recyte some as they ly in his booke Prudentius Cassianus Paulinus Gregorius Nissenus Basil Theodorete Hierome Gregorius Turonensis Gregory the great Euagrius Chrysostome Bede Damascen and others to whose authorityes and sentences O. E. answereth heere not one word but letteth them slipp as though he had neuer heard of them and this is his common tricke when he hath nothing to reply yet notwithstanding shall yow heare him bragg and vaunt anon when the skyrmish is ended as yf he had fully answered all and playd his prise with great manhood And thus much about the first falsification in translatinge Image for Idoll wherin O. E. hath valiantly holpen his client as yow see Lett vs now examine what succour he geueth him for the second charge to witt for leauinge out the words adored by pagans for Gods which should haue explicated Theodoretts plaine meaning that he vnderstood not of Christian Images when he spake against such kind of Idolls To the second obiection is answered saith he vvordsâ— gentibus culta being sett downe in the allegation do rather hurt then help the Papists that vvorshipp Images vvith kissinge croachinge censinge prayinge as the gentills did their Idolls those reasons therfore that are forcible against the Idolls of the Gentills are also most forcible against the Popish vvorshipp of Images So saith he And this is all the substance of his aunswere to this obiection wherin to omit his intemperat raylinge I would haue euery man of reason to consider the folly falshood of his answere falshood in tellinge vs only that these words à gentibus culta were left out wheras Theodoret saith à gentibus culta pro dijs culta worshipped by pagans and worshipped for Gods wherin standeth the whole point of the controuersie His folly is apparant in telling vs that if these words had byn truly sett downe and not left out by Plessis yt had byn worse for vs geuinge vs therby to vnderstand that Plessis of compassion not to hurt vs more left them out but yet at leastwise this good we should haue had therby yf he had left them in as he found them that the place of Theodorett cyted by him against Images would plainly haue appeared impertinent to the purpose for that yt treated only of pagan Idolls and this had bâ—n help inough for the Papists against Plessis and O. E. who from this place of Theodorete corrupted by them would impugne Christian Images now let the Christian reader iudge what help Plessis and O. E. had need to haue to deliuer them from the note of so false dealinge And this shal be sufficient for this briefe examen of the 9. places aforesaid out of which O. E. being once gotten harken I pray yow how he craketh boasteth and vaunteth If then saith he the aduersary could not gett any ground of Maister Plessis in these places vvhich vvere chosen as principall and placed first as places of most aduantage we may well suppose yf the triall had proceeded that he would haue receaued farre more disgrace c. And againe yf a gentleman no professed diuine vpon such vnequall tearmes was able to make head against his aduersaryes much better I hope should we be able to resist yf professed diuines might procure an indifferent triall c. And yet further most ridiculous it is to thinke that this Thrasonicall Chalenger was able to make good that cause which neyther with lyinge forginge facinge nor any witt or pollicy the greatest clarks of that faction are able to maintayne And in his preface to the refutation of my relation It will plainly appeare by examination of the particulars that the L. of Plessis vvas most vniustly charged