the children themselues being once of discretion may with their owne mouth and with their owne consent openly before the Church confirme the same and also promise that by the Grace of God they will euermore endeuour themselues faithfully to obserue such thinges as they by their owne confession haue assented vnto Againe they say that we c Admon page 195. make the maried maâ— to make an Idoll of his wife saying with my body I thee worship when as our meaning onely is that the man should as the Apostle biddeth him d 1. Peter 3. 7. giue honour vnto the woman as vnto the weaker vessell To conclude this construing of things in the worst part was a thing very common at the late conference as appeareth by these his Maiesties words e See the Proclamation for the authoriz We thought meetâ— with the consent of the Bishops and other learned mâ—n there present that some small thinges might rather bee explained then changed not that the same â—ight not verie well haue beene borne with by men who would haue made reasonable construction of them c. But to proceede to some other matters what other opinions held your Anababtists The Germaine The 61. SeÌ„blance VVHy do you thus wearyme with relating their opinions Maister d Bullinger fol. 18. Bullinger telleth you that there was no stay in them but that daily they inuented new opinions and did runne from errour to errour The Englishman How new-fangle likewise our Nouellists are it appeareth by their often correcting altering and amending of their plat-forme of Discipline But what need I produce any arguments to proue this T. C. and his adherents in one of their examinations in the Starre-chamber did confesse and auouch it vpon their oathes e See the Survey of preteÌ„ded holy discipline that there were then after many meetings which they had some things in their draught of discipline wherein they were not resolued And I verily perswade my selfe that if our obstinate Ministers were pressed vpon their oathes they would notwithstanding all their ploddings together acknowledge that they are not resolued in all points what they would haue Yea this their affectation of noueltie was such as that it moued the Kings Maiestie to giue this admonition to all his Subiects f See the proclamation before alleadged We do admonish all men that hereafter they shall not expect nor attempt any further alteration in the common and publique forme of Gods seruice from this which is now established for that neither will wee giue way to any to presume that our iudgement hauing determined in a matter of this waight shall be swayed to alteration by the friuolous suggestions of any light spirits neyther are we ignorant of the inconueniences that doe arise in gouernment by admitting innouation in things once setled by mature deliberation and how necessarie it is to vse constancie in the vpholding of the publike determinations of States for that such is the vnquietnes and vnstedfastnes of some dispositions affecting euerie yere new formes of things as if they should be followed in their inconstancy would make all actions of states ridiculous and contemptible c. And thus you see how that our Sectaries doe affect new formes of thinges inuent new opinions runne from error to error as your Anabaptists did But what doe you coniecture to be the cause that these your Sectaries did thus runne from one new opinion to an other were not of a more stayed settled iudgement The Germaine The 62. seÌ„blance TRuely it was as I coniecture because they contemned disdained the old fathers of the church and thought it the loosing of good houres to peruse their writings The Englishman It greeueth me to see how lightly our Sectaries also esteeme of the classicall principal Doctours of the church next the Apostles of Christ and their next succeeders whome they ought to a Ego illos â—â—â—eror taâ—â—â— nominibus reuerence to doe a kinde of homage to their very names and to acknowledge that of them all which was said of b Sencea lib. 8. Epist 65 two of theÌ„ viz that they are euen the hammers of Hereticks the eyes of the world The Germaine Why how doe they account of these Starres and Ornaments of learning The Englishman How lightlye they account of them the verye wordeâ— of T. C. doe make proofe who when he was vrged with the testimonies of Ignatius TertulliaÌ„ CypriaÌ„ Ierome Augustine â—nd others cryed out that c T. C. lib. 1 pag. 154 truth was measured by the crooked yard of time Yea he tearmeth the seeking into the Fathers writings d T. C. lib. 1 page 114 araking in Ditches The Germaine And doe they make the same reckoning too of auncient Councels and Synodes The Englishman The 63. seÌ„blance YEs the Councell of Nice of Neosesarea of Gangren and of Orleance being quoted to proue the authoritie of the Church in thinges indifferent T. C. complained T. C. Lib 1 pag. 29. 32 that he was pestered with such a kinde of authoritie insteed of Isai Ieremie S. Paul and S. Peter The Germaine It is likely that they esteemed very lightly of the writings of heatheÌ„ writers seeing that they made so small recconing of auncient Councels and Synodes The Englishman True did your Sectaries make any greater account of them The Germaine Ours no there was one Iohn Mathew their principal prophet that commaunded as Sleidan testifieth euery Sleidan lib 10 one of his followers to bring all his bookes whatsoeuer sauing the Bible to be publiquely burned which was accordingly performed The Englishman Belike then they were of opinion that all Gentile learning should be abandoned from the lips of Christians The Germaine The 64. seÌ„blance YEs and especially from the lips of Preachers The Englishman Saint Augustine writing against Petilian telleth vs Aug lib 3. contra Petilian cap. 16. that the said Petilian his aduersatie did accuse him for a Lâ—giâ—ian and did bring Logicke it selfe to her try all before the people as the mistresse of forgery and lying and because he shewed some Rhethorike did note him by the name of Tertullus the Orator and charged him with the damnable wit of Carneades the Academicke Your Anabaptists I see were of Petilian his humor The Germaine True and are not your Sectaries so too The Englishman Yes My heart saith one of them in a certaine Schismatical a Intittled the State of the church of England pag 25 Booke that is very rife amongst our Puritans waxeth colde my flesh trembleth to heare you say that a Preacher should confirme his matter out of the Fathers and humaine writers doth preaching consist in quoting of Doctors alleadging of Poets Philosophers In what part of his commission hath a Minister warrant so to doe The Germaine In what part doth not S. Paul himself aledge b Act 17. 28 Aratus c 1 cor 15 33 Menander
other sleights besides these that you haue already mencioned The Germaine The 9. semblance YEs b Sleidan in Câ—m 5. there was one Thomas Muncer a Preacher who as Sleidan and other Germaine-writers reporte did greately labour both by his conferences in priuate by his Sermons in publike to draw the common people from their liking of the present estate The Englishman It hath likewise beene the practise of our factious preachers in their verball Sermons to speake against the statâ— ecclesiasticall the book of common prayer the rites ceremonies of the Church of England For the proofe heereof I referre you to the very confession of their owne lippes On Tuesday saith c Anno 1586. one of their owne side T. C. kept Maister Fens Lecture the Text Psalme 122 4. Vnto the end taking thornes as Tâ—emelius doth and vrging the discipline the want whereof he affirmed to be the cause that some friendes for sooke our Church And as this is the practise of some of our factious Ministers in England so is it also the practise of the same faction in Scotland Yea d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Page 38. 39. they snapper out grosselye with the truth of their intentions informing the people that all Kinges and Princes are naturally enemies to the libertye of the Church and can neuer patientlye beare the yoake of Christ with such sound Doctrine fed they their flockes The Germaine The 10. SeÌ„blance THe Anabaptists did not content themselues therewithal but to the end they might doe yâ— more harme they published factious Bookes to the view of the world as may bee gathered by this speech of Maister Zuinglius to the Magistrates in his time a Zuinglius de Baptism Si hoc cuiuis hominum impune facere licebit vt quae priuato suae rationis consilio adinuenit in vulgus spergat inconsulta imo resistente etiam vniuersatotius ecclesiae authoritate breui plus errorum quam fidelium Christianorum in ecclesia erit cernere If it bee lawfull for euery man to publish abroad among the people those thinges which he hath deuised of his owne head before he hath consulted with the Church nay against the authoritie of the whole Church in short time we shall see more errours in the Church then there be faithful men and Christians And in an other place Si hoc permittamus vt capitosus quisque male-feriatus homo c. If we suffer euery headie braineles fellow so soone as he hath conceiued any new thing in his minde to publish it abroad gather disciples and make a new sect in short time we shall haue so many sects factions that Christ which scarse with a great paine and labour is brought to vnitie in euery church should be deuided againe into many parts The Englishman Neyther did our Puritanes therewithall content themselues but that their poyson might ranckle the farther to the disturbance perrill both of the Church common-wealth they haue published a great number of Bookes which are as fit for the fire as the Bookes of curious Artes Act. 19. Yea and they haue also exhorted the common-people to peruse these their sedicious Pamphlets I pray you say they b In a Booke of theirs entituled the state of the church of England c. Page 10. when you come to London see if you can get these bookes The Ecclesiastical Discipline A learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment The Counterpoyson A Seâ—mon on the 12. to the Romans and Maâ—ster Cartwights last reply some of which bookes haue been extant this dozen yeares and yet are not them answered and you shall there finde that the gouernment of the Church is contrary to the word of God But not to speake onely of their Bookes in gâ—nerall lâ—t vs take a view of the Contents thereof in particular The Germaine Our Sectaries did stuffe their bookes with inuectiues and out-cries both against the Magistracie and the Ministerie TO begin with the Magistracie they taught as Maister The 11. seÌ„blance a Bulling aduers Anabap. Fol. 19. Bullinger also recordeth that the Ciâ—il Magistrate hath no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters and that hee ought not to meddle in causes of Religion and Faith The Englishman Our Sectaries come not farre behinde them heerein as appeareth by these their speeâ—hes b T. C. lib. 1. Page 192 for the making of orders and ceremonies in the Church saith T. C. they doe where there is a constituted ordered Church pertaine vnto the Ministers of the church and to the Ecclesiasticall gouernours and that as they meddle not with the making of ciuill Lawes and Lawes for the common-wealth so the ciuill Magistrate hath not to ordaine ceremonies partaining to the Church c T. C lib 2 Page 1â—5 And againe No ciuil Magistrates in councels or assemblies for Church-matters can eyther be chiefe moderator ouer-ruler Iudge or dâ—tâ—rminer d Admon 2 No ciuil Magistrate say the admonitors hath such authoritie as that without his consent it should not be lawfull for ecclesiasticall persons to make any church-order or ceremonie e Admon 1 And againe To these three ioyntlie that is the Ministers Seniors and Dâ—acons is the whole regiment of the Church to be committed By this you may see that our Sectaries doe shake hands both with the Anabaptists the Papists But albeit these three contrary factions haue vnited ioyned themselues together and doe al ioyntly oppugne the Princes authoritie in causes â—cclesiasticall yet the authoritie of the sacred Scriptures the judgement of the auncient Fathâ—rs the decisions of auncient Counsels and the practiâ—e of Christian Princes in the pâ—imatiue Church are able to seuer and dis-ioyne all their forces To beginne with the Scriptures they giue sufficient warrant to ciuill Gouernours to ordaine Lawes in Ecclesiastical causes and doe expressely teach that a 2. Reg 12 4 2 Chro. 19. 4. Ibidâ—m 30 1 34. 3. Iehosaphat Hezekias and Iosias did make Lawes for the recalling excercising of the Seruice of God As for the Fathers they holde it to bee an Oracle for truth that b Aug. Epi. 48 Kinges doe serue Christ in making lawes for Christ Yea c Aug. Epi. 50 Rex aliter seruit Domino saith Saint Augustine quia homo est aliter quia etiam Rex est Quia homo est ei seruit viuendo fideliter quia vero Rex est seruit leges iust a praecipientes contraria prohibentes conuenienti vigore sanciendo A King serueth the Lord one way as he is a man and an other way as he is a King As hee is a man he serueth him by liuing faithfully As he is a King he serueth him by making lawes with conuenient vigor to coÌ„maunde that which is right and forbid the contary But not to insist onely vpon Saint Augustins iudgement The d Vide Sozomen lib. 1. cap 17. Bishops that came to the counsell of Nice gaue to the Emperour
catabapt but they endeauoured to the vtmost of their power to commit the quite contrary that so they might crosse the Magistrate The Englishman That which you say was the custome of your Anabaptists hath beene the custome of Heretickes and Scismatickes in all ages The Eunomian Heretickes in dishonor of the blessed Trinitie brought in the laying on of water in baptisme but once to crosse the custom of the church which did it thrice other Heretickes which held the Tâ—initie to bee three distinct not Persons but natures abused the cereremonie of three times laying on of water to the strengthning of their Heresie and to the crossing of the custome of the Church in their times The selfe same thing hath beene practised by our Scismatickes for some of them haue sent their Seruants to the Plough and Cart vpon the verye fâ—ast of the Natiuitie of Christ to crosse the custome of our Church which keepeth it holy Others as the reuerend Fathers in Oxford were credibly informed did b Oxfords answere to the Petiâ—ion spend the fift of August last in fasting to crosse that authoritie which coÌ„maunded them to celebrate it with ioy and thankefulnes for his Maiesties moste strange and wonderfull deliuerance from the conspiraâ—ie of the Earle of Gowrie c King vpon Iâ—nas â—ect 36. And I heard of a nation of mâ—n saith Doctor King when their King had intended a feast for the honour of his country they on the contrary side proclaimed a Fast as if God had sent them an Embassador of the last iudgement And I know a societie of men who in the time of Lent were wont to eate Flesh-meate seauen daies in the weeke though out of Lent but fiue daies I thinke they did it for no other end but onely to crosse the authoritie of that power which inioyneth vs to abstaine from Flesh-meate at that season of the yeare Thus doe they behaue themselues much like them vnto whome it was said by Christ in the behalfe of all painefull Apostles and Ministers Wee haue piped to you and ye haue not daunced wee haue mourned to you ye haue not wept To conclude they will euer be in an extreame for when we Feast they will Fast when wee Fast they will Feast But tell mee Sir did they not also speake euill of them that were in authoritie The Germaine The 16. seÌ„blance YEs they did as Zuinglius reporteth speake euill of the a Zuinglius in â—lencho contra Anabap. ciuill Magistrate if at any time heere prooued theÌ„ then they straight way said that therefore hee was an enemie vnto them because they did tell him of his faults The Englishman Your Anabaptists come far short of our Sectaries in this point for many of them haue reposed a great part of their Christian profession zeale in the reproaching and odious traducing of them that are in authoritie h Exhortat to England Page 92. They haue exhorted the common people to repute those Princes that liue not vnder the Yoake of the pretended holy Discipline for Gods enemies c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Page 39. They haue informed them That all Kinges and Princes are naturally enemies to the liberties of the Church Yea they made complaint to his Highnesse that our late Soueraigne made their yoake greeuous that she had laide vpon them an heauie burden of humaine rites and ceremonies They haue depraued and slaundered not onely the CommunioÌ„ Booke but the whole estate of the Church as it was reformed by her Maiestie Yea in her Highnes life time the state of this Church of England was so depraued beyond the Seas by these our disciplinairians as that it hath beene conceiued by Godly men in forraigne Countries that we haue a Gualther episcopâ— Eliens Anno. 1574. No lawes no good orders no discipline but that euery maÌ„ may doe what he list But I pray you tel me were not your Anabaptists punished for these their vile attempts The Germaine The 17. seÌ„blance YEs but they greatly complaâ—ned that b Bulling aduers Anabapt Fol. 11. nothing was vsed but violence The Englishman So haue our Sectaâ—ies also complained to the Kinges Maiesty that c Petition exhibited to the Kings Maiesty they haue beene suspended silenced disgraced and imprisoned for mens traditions The Germaine Well let vs leaue this their impugning of the Magistracie come to their oppugning of the Ministerie And let vs beginne with the Vniuersities because they are the ordinarie meanes to maintaine the Ministerie The Englishman With the Vniuersities why I hope they did not oppose themselues against the fountaines and Wel-springs of good learning The Germaine The 18. seÌ„blance YEs d The Author of the Suruey cap. 26. your owne writers can teâ—l you that they wrote very scornefully against the Vniuersitie degrees The Englishman And to tell you the truth so did our Sectaries too e These words I found in a Manu-script of theirs Doctors in Theologie say they is vnlawfull It is mans ordinance without tâ—â—â—ord of God it cannot be taken without an idle oath it is offenciue to the Church of God it is a matter of distinction of the mindes of the Ministers it is one of the swelling titles forbiddin to Ministers it is a Relique of Rome as are Priestes Deacons Archbishoppes it is in regard of the forme thereof a manifest abuse of Gods ordinance of his Ministers after an apish manner giuing authoritie of preaching it is an idle name to bee called Doctors except they haue Schollers and doe teach them c. But what neede I produce their Manu-scripts It is a See their addition to the first part of the Admon and T. C. Lib. 2. page 2â— apparent enough in their Bookes extant that they mislike the degrees of Doctors and Batchelors in Diuinitie The Germaine The 19. seÌ„blance YEa but our Sectaries misliked not onely degrees in the Vniuersitie but in the Ministerie also For the proofe hereof I refer you to the expresse words of b Gerlach in Hyper. Dan. Page 3. Gerlachius a learned maÌ„ of Tubing Liâ—et saith he titulos c. Although thou beholdest with disdaine as it were from aboue the titles orders after the fashion of the Hypocrites Anabaptists yet with a vaine perswasion of knowledge foolish arrogancie whereby thou contemnest our Country-men in respect of thy selfe and doost challenge especiall knowledge to thee and thy fellowes onely Plus turgâ—s quam omnes Doctores et Superintendentes nostri Thou swellest more with pride then all our Doctors and Superintendents And what commeth into thy minde that thou shouldest cauill at the degrees of Ministers as though it were not lawfull to ordaine such degrees for the building gouernment of the Church Did not God himselfe in the olde Testament appoint cheefe Priestes and Leuites and in the New Testament gaue hee not some Apostles some Euangelistes and some Pastors and Doctors You see heere that the Anabaptists
contemned our Superintendents beheld with disdaine their Titles and Offices The Englishman The Titles and Offices of Arch-bishoppes and Bishops are more auncient and necessarye then the Titles and Offices of Superintendents are for the Apostle Peter did as Clemens hath obserued appoint in a Clemens in CompeÌ„diario Christiana Religion euery Prouince one Arch-bishop whome all other Bishops of the Prouince should obey And wee reade that Dyonisius Areopagita was b Volusus epist ad Nichol. 1. Archbishoppe of Athens and appointed thereunto by Saint Paul that Timothie was c Chrysost in 1. Timoth. 5. Bishoppe of Ephesus that Titus was d Chrysost in 1. Tit. Bishop of Creta that Saint Iohn e Euseb lib. 3 cap. 23. gouerned the Church in Asia after his returne from Pathmos that Iames was f Euseb lib. 2. cap. 23. Bishoppe of Ierusalem that Polycarpe was g Tertul. de Prescript Bishoppe of Smirna that Demetrius was h Euseb lib. 6 cap. 1 Bishoppe of Alexandria that Saint Cyprian was i cyprian lib 4 Epist 8. Bishoppe of Carthage that Saint Gregory was k Euseb lib. 7. cap. 14. Bishop of Pontus that Saint Chrysostome was l Theod. lib. 5. cap. 28. Archbishoppe of Constantinople that Theodoret was m Theod. epist ad Leon. Bishoppe of Cyprus And in Elutherius his time which was Anno Dom. 180. when this Realme was first conuerted to Christianitie there was as Maister Fox n Tom. 1. page 146. acknowledgeth appointed in the same three Archbishoppes and 28. Bishops All which notwithstanding the fauourites of the new fangle-faction would haue instead of Arch-bishoppes an equalitie of Ministers If you wiâ— restore the Church say the Admonitors to his auncient Officers this you must doe instead of an Arch-bishoppe or Lord Bishoppe you must make equalitie of Ministers Yea o T. C. lib 2 page 438. the learnedst of them is not ashamed to write that Archbishops and Bishoppes are new Ministeries neuer ordained by God The Germaine The 20. seÌ„blance A Although p Gerlachius in Hyper. Dan. page 30. the Anabaptists pretended the forenamed equalitie yet they sought Dominion laboured onely to pull the rule from others that the rule might haue boâ—â—e in their owne handes and that they onelye might haue borne the sway The Englishman That our Puritanes doe the like I prooue it by the late Archbishops experience You desire saith a In his deseÌ„ce of the answere to the Admonition page 459. hee this equalitie not because you would not rule for it is manifest that you seeke it moste ambitiously in your manner but because you condemne and disdaine to bee ruled and to bee in subiection Indeede your meaning is as I said before to rule and not to be ruled to doe what you list in your seuerall cures without controlement of Prince Bishoppe or any other And therefore pretending equalitie most disorderly you seek Dominion I speake that I knowe by experience in some of you But let vs see what other speeches they deliuered against your ecclesiasticall Magistrates The 21. seÌ„blance The Germaine VVHat needes so many wordes b Gerlacius in Hyper Dan. Page 30. Gerlachius telleth you that they disdained them scorned them rayled on them The Englishman Yea but they haue not come neere our Puritanes in this point I will acquaint you with some of their speeches which they haue belched out against the Reuerend Fathers of our Church They c See their Booke inituled Hay yee any worke page 14. 15. 20. 21 blush not to say that Archbishoppes and Bishops are superfluous members of the body of Christ that they maime and deforme his body making it by that meanes a Monster that they are vnlawfull false and bastardly gouernours of the Church that they are ordinances of the Deuill that they are in respect of their places enemies of God that they are Petty Popes pettie Antichristes Bishoppes of the Deuill that the lawes that maintaine Archbishops Bishops are no more to be accounted of then the lawes that maintaine stewes that the true church of God ought to haue no more to doe with them their Sinagogues then with the sinagogues of Sathan But not to interrupt your speech any longer what was the câ—use that the Anabaptists railed on your church-gouernors The Germaine The 22. seÌ„-blance SVrely a Bulling advers Anabap. Fol. 19. 95. 242. because they endeuoured to bring them to conformitie by compulsion The Englishman By the orders of our Church and lawes of the Realme there is required of our Ministers a subscriptioÌ„ to his Majestres lawfull authority in causes Ecclesiasticall to the Articles of Religion to the Booke of Common Prayer and to the orders Rites Ceremonies of our Church Now because our Church-gouernours do according to their duetie depriue those of their liuings that refuse to subscribe heerunto The Puritanes doe complaine of rigor and reuile Gods high Priest which Saint b Act. 23. 5. Paul repented hee had ignorantly done though that high Priest was an vsurper I confesse indeede that they haue yeilded to subscribe to c See their petition to the King the Articles of Religion and to the Kings suprmacie but this is not sufficient for it is a thing too manifest with what libelling and rayling the forme of our Seruice of our Ceremonies of our apparell c. hath beene depraued and shamefully slaundered by these factious Sprits They haue blazed and diuulged abroade as shall heereafter be shewed more at large that the Communion Booke was culled and picked out of the Popish dunghill the Masse Booke that it is Papisticall that it were better to conforme our selues in outward thinges to the Turkes then to the Papists It behooueth therfore the reuerend Fathers of our Church to compell them to subscribe not onely to the Articles of Religion and to the Kinges supremacy but to the Communion Booke also and to the Discipline of our Church Neyther ought they to thinke that they are too rigorously dealt withal if that they be compelled vrged to shew their conformitie in all thinges seeing that the same course is taken in all other Churches for the repressing of schisme To insist onely in one particular whosoeuer is made Minister at Geneua he sweareth to keepe a Vide leges Geneuens Fol. 3. all their Ecclesiasticall ordinances Yea we reade b Vide Bezam in vita Caluin that Maister Caluin procured a generall oath to be taken through out the whole Cittie of Geneua for the approbation therof Now why should not our Reuerend Bishops haue as free libertie to doe the like But tell mee did not your Anabaptists require a secret subscription of their followers The Germaine Yes although they would not yeild their conformitie with vs in obseruing the good lawes and ordinances of our Church yet priuatlie as c Sleidan L. 6 Sleidan reporteth they gaue their mutuall faith and oath each to other The Englishman The 23.
d Tit 1 12 Epimenides who were all heathen Poets Is not this a sufficient warrant for a Minister But I see the reason why both your Sectaries and ours doe take such vehement exceptions against Poets Philosophers The Englishman What is the reason The Germaine The 65. seÌ„blance SVrely as e Vide August lib. 3. contra Pâ—til cap. 16 Petilian dispraised Logick Rhethoricke because he himself was ignoâ—aÌ„t in those arts so doe our Sectaries contemne all Gentile learning and blame men that make vse of it because they themselues are ignorant therein The Englishman Is this the cause thinke you The Germaine Yes doubtles for as f Greg Nizianz in Mâ—nâ—d Nazianzene saith non vlla dispicienda disciplina cognitio cum de genere bonorum scientia sit omnis c. There is â—ot any knowledge of learning to be dispised seeing that all science what-soeuer is in the nature and kinde of good thinges Rather those that g Ipsam spermentes rustiâ—os et plane ignaues existimare de beâ—â—â— dispise it we must repute clownish and fluggish altogether who would be glad that all men were ignorant that their owne ignorance lying in the common heap might not be espyed The Englishman Well then they are like the Foxe that despiseth the Grapes which himselfe cannot reach The Germaine Nay they are rather like that olde Foxe a Vâ—lpecâ—lâ— câ—â—â—â— amissa reliquis â—â—lpâ—bus calliâ— pâ—rsuasit vt similiter et ipsa caâ—das resecarent â—â— sola â—â—rpis et deforâ—â—â— in suâ— generâ— viderâ—â—â—r Melanct. who hauing had a mischance and lost his tayle went straight way to the Beastes of the same kinde and fell to perswade theÌ„ euery one to cut of his tayle pleading the waightines and combersomnes of it with many the like circumstances but the matter comming throughly to bee examined and scand it was found that the craftie Foxe did it onely to couer his owne deformitie which if to be without tayles had once become a fashion should neuer haue beene â—spied But to speake in earnest there were other reasons besides this why our Sâ—ctaries dispise all Gentile and Prophane learning The Englishman What other The Germaine IT appeareth by the preface of Luther vpon the Epistle The 66. seÌ„blance to the Galathians that our Anabaptistes condeÌ„ned the graces and workes of God for the in digniâ—ie and vnworthynesse of the persons and subiects in whome they were found The Englishman So doe our Puritanes likewise contemne the writingeâ— of the Gentiles because the authors thereof were wicked prophane and superstitious Idolaters I speake what I knowe to be the opinion of some of them The Germaine To such may you fitly say as Ierome said to Ruffinus in his time volo sis api argumentosâ— similis c. I would haue thee like the wittie discoursing Bee which from a nettle gathereth hony But let vs leaue this particular and proceed in order to some other matter The Englishman No before I leaue this particular let me shew you how greately they esteeme of their owne writers The Germaine The 67. seÌ„blance VVHat doe they preferre them as our Anabaptists did theirs before the auncient fathers who were the verie pillers of Religion Christianity in their daies The Englishman Yes before all the best late writers too For the iustifying of whaâ— I haue said I will acquaint you with the expresse wordes of some of T. C. his proselytes and followers I thanke God quoth one b F. to 1 Aâ—â—â— Dom. 1586 of them I haue satisfied in part my longing with T. C. of whome I thinke at sheâ— did of Salomon Wee want Bookes c F to G Aâ—â—â— Dom. â—58â— said an other wherby we may come to the knowledge of the truth I meane T. C his Bookes Yea T. C. saith the DISPLAYER OF MEN IN THEIR COLOVRS is a man as well able to iudge as all the Lord Bishops in Christendomâ— Henserui regnant Famuli dominantur Asselli Ornantur phaleris de phalarantur equi But to proceede howsoeuer his Proselites account of his Bookes it is moste true that they are Puritan popish and thaâ— they haue indeede beene d Viruâ— eccles â—t râ—iâ— the verye poyson of Church and Common-wealth Not to conceale Doctor Whitaker his iudgement touching this point Quem Câ—rtwrightus saith he speaking of his second reply â—â—per emisit libellum 〈◊〉 magnam partem perlegi Ne viuamsi quid vnquam viderim dissolutius ac paene puerilius VerboruÌ„ satiâ— ille quidem lautam ac nouam supellectilem habet reruÌ„ omnino nullam quantum â—go iudicare possâ—m Deinde noÌ„ modo perâ—ersse de Principis in rebus sâ—cris atque ecclesiasticis authoritate sentit sed in papistarâ— etiam castra transfugit a quibus tameÌ„ videri vult idiâ— capitali dissidere Verâ—mne in hac causa ferendus et alijs etiam in partibus tela a papistis mâ—tâ—atur Denique vt dâ— Ambrosiâ— dixit Hiâ—ronimâ—s verbis â—â—dit planâ—que indignus est qui a quop aÌ„ docto confutetur That is I haue read ouer a great part of that Book which Cart wright hath lately published I pray God I liue not if euer I saâ—â— any thing more dissolute and almost more childish He hath ingreat store of plausible wordes but no substance as farre as I can iudge Furthermore he thinketh not onely perueâ—sly of the Princes authoritie in ecclesiasticall affaires but he flyeth into the very tents of the Papists from whome he would be thought to dissent with a deadly haâ—red But he is not to be suffered in this cause and in other partes he borroweth weapons from the Papists To conclude as Ieâ—ome said of Ambrose he playeth with wordes and is flatly vnworthy to be confuted of any learned man Loe this is the iudgement which this learned iudicious diuine gaue of T. C. his bookes which many now a dayes doe make as great account of as of Oracles And thus much concerning our Puritan-Popish teachers now let vs come to their Proselytes followers The Germaine To their Proselytes what haue they any Proselites The Englishman Yes they haue compassed sea and land haue made many their Proselites the children of error as deeply as themselâ—es The Germaine And indeed so did our Anabaptists too The Englishman Of what sorte I pray you were their Proselytes and followers The Germaine The 6â— seÌ„blance OF what sorte Master Bullinger telleth you that such of the vulger sort aâ— were of contentious natures Bullinger adâ—ers â—nabâ—p ioyned with them and commended their doings Amongst the rest there was one Iohn of Leyden a Towne in Holland hauing none other name by reason of his ignobility being but a Cobler by his occupation who came into the Citie of Munster which is the principall Citie of Westphalia a Pouince in Germany and there became an egregious Anabaptist The Englishman What! were your chiefe Cities pestred with Anabaptists The Germaine The 69. seÌ„blance
Canonicall Scriptures be vsed in the Church and so haue you 10 The a Confes art 30 Brownists woulde not haue Homilies to be read in the Church no more would you 11 The b See their 2. petition particul 9 Brownists dislike our prescript forme of prayer and so do c Admon 1 pag. 17. you 12 The d In the preface to the Confession pag. 10. Brownists beare the world in hand that our Seruice Booke is verbatim gathered out of the Masse-booke so do you that it is e Admon 1 pag. 16. culled and picked out of that popish dunghill the Portuise and Masse-booke 13 The new-fangle f In the preface of the Confession pag. 10. Brownists blame is for keepieg the olde fashion of Psalmes Chapters Epistles Gospells Versicles Responds Te Deum Benedictus Magnificat Nunc dimittis Our Father Lord haue mercie vpon vs The Lord be with you O Lord open thou my lips Glorie be to God on high Lift vp your heartes O come let vs reioyce Glory be to the father Quicunque vult c. and the selfe same doe you 14 The g Ibidem Brownists dislike our Letany and Collects so doe you 15 The h Confess art 30. Brownists dislike our Prayers ouer the dead at buriall so doe you 16 The Brownister woulde not haue Preachers to preach at burialls No more would you as appeareth by your Booke of i Capâ—de Concion bus ad Ecelesiam habendis Discipline wherein are these expresse words Infuneribus desuescendum est commodè ab habendis concionibus quod periculum sit us super stitionem quorundam foueant aut vanitati inseruiant The Preachers must leaue off by little and little as they may conueniently to preach at burialis lest thereby they nourish the superstition of some men or giue ouer themselues to the preseruation of vanity Yea the k Admâ—nit pag. 200 Admonitors were not ashamed to compare funerall Sermons to Trentalls 17 The l In their â—petition to the King particul 11. Brownists craue that the Church be not vrged to keepe any holie-dayes saue onely to sanctifie the Sabbaoth so do you as hath already biâ— shewed 18 The m In their preface of the conf pag. 10 Brownists doe reckon Saints Eeues and Lent for Romish fasts so doe you 19 The n Ibidem Brownists dislike the Ring in marriage so do you 20 The o In their preface of the confes pag. 9. Brownists would not haue women to be churched no more would you 21 The p Ibidem Brownists haue slandred our Ministers and blazed abroad that they take vpon them to forgiue men their sins and so haue you as hath bin shewed 22 The q In their conf art 30. Brownists also falsly report that we permitte Midwiues to administer Baptisme so do you 23 The r In the preface of their confes pag. 10 brainsicke Brownists would not haue children to be Baptized in Fonts no more would you bicause Fonts as you say were inuented by Pope Pius 24 The Å¿ Admonit 1. pag. 105. Brownists dislike of Crossing in Baptisme so do you because forsooth t Preface of the conf p. 10 it is a peece of Poperie 25 The u Admonit 1 pag. 105. Brownists dislike that children should haue godfathers and godmothers at their Baptisme so do x Preface of the conf p. 10 you 26 The y Admonit 1 pag. 105. Brownistâ—s woulde not haue Interrogatories to be ministred to Infants no more would z Ibidem you 27 The a Ibid. Preface pag. 10. Brownists blame vs for Ministring the communion to the people kneeling so doe you 28 The b Conf. art 30 Brownists hold Surplices to be Popish corruption so holdye them to be knowne liueries of Antichrist 29 The c In their defencepag vlt. and in their 2. petition particul 14. Brownists would haue nothing to be vsed in these dayes which was not vsed in the dayes of the Apostlés no more would you 30 The a In their preface of confes p. 10. 13 Brownists thinke it vnlawfull for vs to vse any rite or ceremonie in our Church which is vsed in the Church of Rome and so doe you To conclude the Brownists and the Puritanes doe agree together in all things their seperation onely excepted as euen as twoo peeces of cloth that are of the same wooll of the same threed of the same colour and of the same breadth and length The Puritane But to put you in minde of one particular before wee make an end of this our conference why doe you vsually call vs by the name of Puritanes The Protestant Why because you agree with certaine olde Heretickes which were so b Catharoi called in former ages The Puritane Wherein doe we agree with them The Protestant The old Puritanes sought for a Church saith master Caluine c Caluin aduers Anabapt wherein there should want nothing that might he desired euen so do you as appeereth by these words of your chiefest Writer d T. C. Replie pa. 17. sect 4. The Church in the whole and generall gouernment and outward policie of it may be pure and vnspetted Secondly we call you Puritanes not because you are purer than other men are no more than were the Puritanes in antient time but because yon think your selues to be e Mundiores cateris purer than others as the old Puritanes did God almighty giue you grace to become f Matth. 5. 8 pure in hart and g 1. Cor. 1. 12 in simplicitie and godly purenesse to haue your conuersation in the world The second Dialogue Treating of their Perseuerance in Schisme and of their ghostly Idolatrie WEll mette good Neighbour what newes I pray you The Puritane I heare none but that the Bishops haue vniustly depriued many good Ministers of their liuings The Protestant I would not haue any that beareth the name of a loyall subiect to say so Their Lord-ships doe nothing against them but what by their authoritie they may doe and by their charge they should doe The Puritane Why should they depriue them of their liuings The Protestant They should depriue them of their liuings bicause they persist and perseuer in an inueterate and old schisme The Puritane Is perseuerance in schisme such a matter as that it deserueth depriuation The Protestants I would not haue you to thinke it a light matter for a man to persist in an olde schisme The auncient Fathers of the Church that florished in the prime age thereof reputed it to be heresie The Puritane Which of them I pray you doth so repute it The Protestant Saint Austen that was haereticorum malleus The Hammer of Heretickes in his time dooth so repute it For in his second booke against Cresconius he dooth define an heresie on this wise a Aug. contra Cresc Donat. cap 7. Haeresis est schisma inueteratum an Heresie is an inueterate schisme And