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A97377 A most necessary & frutefull dialogue, betwene [the] seditious libertin or rebel Anabaptist, & the true obedient christia[n] wherin, as in a mirrour or glasse ye shal se [the] excellencte and worthynesse of a christia[n] magistrate: & again what obedience is due vnto publique rulers of all th[os]e [that] professe Christ yea, though [the] rulers, in externe & outward thinges, to their vtter dampnatyon, do otherwyse then well: translated out of Latyn into Englishe, by Iho[n] Veron Senonoys.; Von dem unverschampten Fräfel der Widertöuffer. English. Selections Bullinger, Heinrich, 1504-1575.; Véron, John, d. 1563. 1551 (1551) STC 4068; ESTC S113331 40,542 90

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which did prophecie of the grace that shuld come vpon you seking to whom or to what time the spirit of Christ whych was in them did signifie And that they did beleue in Christ Christ him self doth testifie in the .viii. chap. of Ihon Paul in that .i. to the Corin. .x. chap. They dyd all speaking of the fathers of the old testamēt eat one spirituall meat wyth vs all did drinke one spiritual drinke And they did drinke of the spiritual rocke What difference there is betwene the congregation of the Patriarkes our congregacion that folowed thē the rocke was Christ The congregatyon thē of them that did beleue in those dayes and of them that do beleue now is al one whiche congregation is gathered in one spirit This difference onely there is that they did beleue in Christ being promised and which was yet to come we do beleue in him that is alredy come exhibyted How they dyd esteme regarde and vnderstand the ceremonies it is easye to be sene in the prophets SIM Then whē we do iudge we must vse the lawes of the Iewes IOIA. That doth not folowe syth that they were no more bounde to the law then we are The marke that the christian maiestrate dothe shote at is that peace iustice maye florishe that men maye lyue righteously godly innocently honestlye on the contrarie syde that vyces and wickednes maie be roted out and punisshed that sedition tumult and rebellion and al such other thinges may be eyther taken hede of or elles banished awaie vtterly It scilleth not by what lawes these thynges be done so the they be done We do not reade that the apostles dyd euer preache agaynst the lawes of the gentyles And why because that the fasshions lawes and customes of countreyes and natyons were dyuerse and sundry nor it could be possyble that all thynges shuld be conuenyent for all menne But what nede we to speake of the auncyent fathers We wyll come to the newe testamente Nicodemus and Ioseph dyd beare rule He was the steward of Quene Candace that was baptized by Philip receiued into the flocke of Christ Cornelius was a christian which dyd sende for Peter and was baptized by hym Surgius Paulus and Erastus were receyued by Paule Thou canste not denye but that all these were common offycers SIM They were officers whē they came to the faith but it is not expressedlye set forthe that they dyd remayne in theyr offyce after that they dyd receiue the fayth IOIA. Therfore I wyl heare by what reasons thou canst proue that faythe dyd put them from theyr office SIM What neadeth any probation syth that it is not written that they dyd abyde in theyr office IOI Shewe then that they dyd not continew in their office SIM I can not IOI Then thou hast proued nothing myne arguments that I do bringe are as stronge as thine Trewly these questions do engender infinit contentions bringe a mans mynd into perplexitie Herken to me then The christian fayth doth put no man frō hys office The christian faith doth put no man from his empire dominion rule or office For Ioseph and the other whiche we haue named before were christyans were alsoo publike magistrats officers Likewise Ihō doth not commaund the souldiers to put a waie forsake warfare inioyning thē only that they shuld hurte or accuse falsely no man and that they shoulde be contente wyth theyr wages Luke .iii. chapter If faith the name of a Christian shuld constrayne any man to goo from his power authority truely it shuld compel him to go from the seruyce of god For the Magistrate or officer is the minister or seruant of god The Euangeliste when he maketh mentiō of Ioseph of Arimathia doth say that he was a senator or alder man Agayne he sayth that he was an honest iuste man but wtout faith there can be no righteousnes For by faith the righteous doth liue He is righteous he is faithfull he is a senatour ergo a faythfull may be an alder man or senatour Paul Ro. xv sayth Erastus that receyuer of the towne doth salute you He was then in office he was notte gone frō his office of a receiuer For in the ii to Tim. iiii He did say that he did dwel in Corinthus Thou dost not read that Philip did forbid the Eununchus his stewardship But now I wil hear whether thou canst bring anye other thinge SIM I haue no expressed wordes touchyng the same But this doth seme vnto me most detestable most vnsemely for a christyan that he should syt there where many thinges are done against the law against right as it is often times done in iudgementes and in the senate or parliamente house IOIA. I haue proued that a christan may execute the office of a Magistrate What shall I say to thyne obiections Nicodemus Ioseph were in the bloudy councel where Christ was condemned yet not wtstanding they were not polluted with that bloudy iudgement For thei did not cōsent to the counsails of the vngodly Lu. xxiii Wherfore a christian is nothing harmed though that he sate in the councel of the vngodly so that he doth not consent to their filthy dedes actes but defende counsayle the which is ryght as much as lieth in him Psalme .i. But now loke vpon the thinge more narowly ponder it more diligently whether it is better that godly men and christyans should be rulers and Magystrates or vngodlye persons For if the Magystrate be an infydell what goodnesse can wee looke too haue of hym For he can do no maner of good him self beinge not good as be all they that neyther know nor worship god which thinge ye do not deny your selues Syth then that ye do say that a christian neither can nor ought to beare rule or be a Magystrate what other thynge do ye say but that there ought to be no goodnesse at al in the magystrate If the doctryne of the Libertins anabaptists shuld stand al right iustice shuld be peruerted Which doctrine if it should stand shuld not all ryght and iustice be peruerted They that ay that a Christian can not be a Magistrate and graunt that the vngodly may they seke nothing els but to destroy al religyon and common weale Can any man gouerne rule better then he that worshpipeth god As kingdoms dyd alwayes florishe vnder godly vertuous princes so they haue ben ouerwhelmed with al kindes of calamites whē vngodly men did beare rule and liueth innocently before him We do learne out of the bokes of iudges of Samuel of Kynges and of the Chronicles that the Realmes kingdoms were neuer in a better more prosperous state then when godlye iudges and kinges dyd beare rule Againe that there were neuer so troublous tymes so muche wyckednes famine hunger warres tumultes and calamytyes as haue bene vnder vngodlye tyrauntes as