fathers who are best assured of their husbands and parents constant loue vnto them Feare of Gods anger against vs by reason of our sins may well stand with assurance of saluation Else why did Dauid require That wee should serue the Lord in feare and reioyce in trembling May a man tremble and yet reioyce and may hee not feare to offend and yet be assured of fauour Pa. Well wee haue expresly That euery man shall be iudged according to his workes A poc 20. Prot. Good And so haue wee Pa. Nay you teach That men shall be iudged only according to their faith Prot. That is not true We teach that seeing it is most fitting for the nature and condition of iudgements to take the euidence whereupon the sentence shall bee pronounced from such things as are most notorious the works good or euill being knowne both to Men and Angells whereas faith which hath her seat in the heart is only seene of the Lord it is most conuenient for iustifying the truth of the Iudge before the world that those things should bee giuen in euidence which fall into the knowledge of the standers by especially when the godly themselues shall be admitted into part of the honour of our Sauiour Christs iudiciall sentence against the reprobates And for this cause it is as we say that our Sauiour at the latter day will say Come yee blessed of my Father For when I was hungry you gaue me meate rather then For that you haue beleeued in mee Haue you any more to say Pa. Yea Wee haue expresly That there remains a retribution stipend and pay to euery good worke in heauen Mark 9. 1 Corinth 3. Apoc. 22. Psal 118. Prot. And doe wee denie it Wee beleeue no good deed shall be lost no not the bestowing of a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple Wherefore this makes nothing against vs. Pa. Yea but you teach Good workes done in Christ merit nothing Prot. Yea but it is one thing to teach That good works done in Christ find retribution and paiment in heauen and another thing to say They merit some things for retribution and stipends and paies are as well giuen of curtesie as of debt or merit Wherefore we teach the former and deny the latter VVhat is your next instance Pa. Wee haue expresly That the affliction which Daniel vsed vpon his bodie was acceptable in the sight of God Dan. 10. Prot. And what is that to vs Pa. Much for you teach That such voluntary corporall afflictions are in vaine Prot. But wee doe not Wee teach with S. Paul 1 Tim. 4. 8. that Corporall exercise voluntarie corporall afflictions are profitable to little There is some good vse of them Not a man of vs teacheth that such voluntary corporall afflictions as Daniel vsed and to such end as hee did vse them are in vaine Haue you not done Pa. No wee haue a plaine text Gen. 48. God who hath fed mee from my youth vp euen to this day The Angel who hath deliuered mee from all aduersâ—ie blesse these children Which implies as much as if we would say God and our Ladie blesse them Prot. By the Angel which is here praied vnto is not meant any created Angel but the Angel of the euerlasting Couenant Christ Iesus as it is plaine by the circumstances of the text and by that testimony of the Fathers And therfore this praier doth not iustifie your praier God and our Lady blesse them No man euer conceiued a praier after this manner Det tibi Deus Angelus that is in effect God and our Lady blesse them saith Athanasius Pa. We haue expresly It is an holy cogitation to pray for the dead 2. Mach. 12. Prot. Yea but the Booke of Machabees is not Canonicall Scripture as I shall proue vnto you ere wee part Now I looke for proofe at your hands out of the Canonicall Scripture Pa. Why then if I should tell you we read expresly in the same Booke that Ieremy the Prophet after hee was dead praied for the people of Israel wherby is proued Intercession of Saints you would put mee off with this That the Scripture alledged by me is not Canonicall Scripture Prot. I might doe so yet I need not for we deny not that Saints make intercession for vs in generall And your Bellarmine alledgeth this to that purpose only Hee alledgeth it not either to proue Inuocation of Saints or the intercession of Saints in particular Pa. And what would you answere me if I vrged That wee haue an expresse example of an holy man that offered sacrifice for the dead 2 Mach. 12. Prot. I would answere you to it That the holy man you meane of offered sacrifice for the liuing and not for the dead And for the full proofe thereof I would referre you to Doctor Reinolds Readings vpon the Apocrypha praelect 158. Pa. And what answere should I looke to receiue of you vpon mention that Tobit 12. wee read expresly That an Angel did present Tobias good workes and almes deeds before God Prot. My answere to that should bee That the booke is Apocrypha Pa. And is not the Booke of Ecclesiasticus Apocrypha in which wee read expresly thus Omnis misericordia faciet locum vnicuique secundum meritum operum Mercie shall make a place to euery man according to the merit of his workes Prot. Yes but I will vse the exception in this case The exception which I take is that the wordes are cited out of a corrupt Translation for in the Greek wherein Ecclesiasticus was first written there is no mention made of merit To euery pitlifull act of goodnesse giue place for euery one shall find not according to the merit of his works but according to his works saith the Greeke Pa. Indeed I confesse the word merit is not in the Greeke for the word merit is not Greeke but Latine yet the Greeke wordes are well translated by the word merit no man can deny who knowes the rudiments of Greek for in the Greek it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which in Latine signifies as much as pro meritis operum Prot. Indeed you fit it for our Sauiour Christ warning his disciples how they should carry themselues towardes the Scribes and Pharisies Doe not saith hee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not meaning after the merit of their workes but simply after their works Your great M. Cardinal Bellarmine of whom you had this was deceiued Pa. And is that proofe which we fetch for merits out of Heb. 13. 16. fetched out of a corrupt translation Beneficence and communication forget not for with such sacrifices God is promerited Prot. Yea verily for according to the Greeke the Apostle saith no more but That with such hosts God is wel pleased And that may appeare vnto you by this that both S. Austine and Beda read so and
let me intreate this of you that you will forbeare to censure either our bookes or our persons vpon your Priests bare information For their words are no Gospel their tongues no slaunder And that you would remember that of g Tertullian Quid iniquius quà m vt oderint homines quod ignorant etiamsi res mereatur odium Tuncenim meretur cum cognoscitur an mereatur Vacante auteÌ„ meriti notitia vnde odij iustitia defenditur quae non deeventu sed de conscientia probanda est with which I end wishing to you all as to my selfe a comfortable life and blessed death Leeds in Yorkshire May 20. 1625. ALEXANDER COOKE A DIALOGVE BETWIXT A PROTESTANT AND A PAPIST Wherein is manifested the Papists Brag that Scripture maketh for them Protestant OH well met once againe where haue you bin that I neuer saw you since wee talked about Pope Ioane Are you the same man for Religion that you was then Papist Yea truely or rather more resolute and confident Prot. What new arguments haue you lighted on to increase your resolution and confidence for my part I am euery day further out of loue with your Religion then other Pa. The Arguments which haue doubled my resolution and confidence are diuers wherof the first is this That I find sentence giuen for vs Catholikes against you Protestants in all the Tribunals of Gods Church I finde that all the Writings of the Saints in Heauen professe for vs. Prot. What the Writings of the Prophets and of the Apostles and of the Fathers in the Primitiue Church and of the Councels Doe you finde that all professe for you Pa. Yea all of them Quaecunque vel opera vel fragmenta supersunt eorum qui disiunctissimis terris Euangelium seuerunt omnes nobis vnam fidem exhibent quam hodie Catholici profitemur There is not a booke nor a piece of a booke extant written by the first Preachers of the Gospel whensoeuer or how far so euer they liued one from another but it giues witnesse to the Catholike Faith which wee professe at this day Prot. Can you make proofe thereof vnto mee and I will bee of your Religion Pa. That I can and I will first begin with Scriptures for I am of Doctor Saunders opinion That there are most plaine Scriptures in all points for the Catholike Faith and none at all against the same And of Doctor Bristoes mind whose words these are Most certaine it is that from the beginning of Genesis to the end of the Apocalips there is no Text that makes for you nor against vs but all for vs. Prot. Say you so Verily and if the Scriptures be for you I will be with you for I like well of Saint Basils motion to one with whom hee had a controuersie Stemus arbitratu inspiratae à Deo Scriptura apud quos inueniuntur dogmata diuinis oraculis consona illis omnino veritas adiudicetur sententiae Let vs stand to the arbiterment of holy Scripture and let them be thought to haue the truth on their side whose opinions are found to be agreeable to Scriptures But let mee tell you a word or two by the way and they are these viz. That you are not more thorowly perswaded of the truth of your two Doctors speeches then I am of a Gentlemuns speech of our Religion who being importuned by an idle Questionist of your side to tell where our Religion was before Luthers time returned him this answere That our Religion was alwaies in the Bible where your Religion neuer was In which perswasion I am the more confirmed by this That there are of your selues no fooles I wisse who write that some among you Poene peceatum putant Scripturas legere ne sic siant haeretici Doe thinke it almost a sinne to read the Scriptures least by reading of them they should proue hereticks For if your Religion were in the Bible and that in so plaine manner as you brag why should any of you bee so afraid of opening a Bible why did one of your Iesuits confesse that Lectis Bebliotuâ—t cicius haereticum Lutheranum quam Catholicum Romanum facit The reading of the Bible makes rather Hereticall Lutherans then Romau Catholikes Why suffer you this marginal Note Nunc exâ—â—udit haresies to be set ouer these words of Chrysostaâ—â— â—gâ—oratio scripturarum peperit haereses Pa. I meane not to take vpon mee the iustifying of euery mans priuate conceits or speeches but what I my selfe haue said all that shall bee made good I will proue vnto you the troth of our Religion by the Bible Prot. Now indeede I am afraid you are bewitched with that damnable opinion which of later yeeres hath runne currantly among you viz. Sunt scriptura Vâ—lut nasus cereus qui se her sum illorsum in quam volueris partem trahi retrahi fingique facile permittit tanquam plumbea quadam Lesbiâ—â—disicationis regula quam no◠〈◊〉 difficile accommodare ad quiduis volueris The Scriptures are like a nose of waxe which may bee writhen this way or that way backward or forward as a manwould would haue it And with that of Quintinus the Parisian Doctor commended by Pamelius who writes thus Tam facile est imâ— facilius est adres profanas impias prâ—bandas detorquere sanctam scripturam quam facile est pedibus ac semi-pedibus aut penthememeribus Virgilianis Epithalmia sen quiduis aliud in vnum congerere It is as casie yea it is more easie to wrest the Scripture to the prouing of any villany or impiety then to make a Loue Song by snatching here a patch and there a patch of a Verse out of Virgil. And that in confidence hereof you hope to make a shew of somewhat out of the Bible for the prouing of your Religion otherwise I know not what should moue you to beginne with Scripture You haue forgotten I beleeue that Doctor Bristow describing the meanes to make plaine demonstration that Heretikes haue no euidence but you all aduiseth his Agents to labour still to get the Heretickes out of their weake and false Castle of holy Scripture into the plaint fields of Councels and Fathers For all his bragging of the Scriptures hee put but a little trust in them hee was loth to haue them in the foreward Pa. But I am content they match in the foreward if you will beleeue me Prot. Why but I pray you then place the best formost And if we fall into dispute with Saint Peters Supremacie trouble mee not with such Texts as some of your Rabbies alledge for it Tell me not that our Sauiour Christ said vnto S. Peter onely Duc in altum Launch into the deepe Noâ— potuisti vna hora vigilare mecum Couldst thou not watch one houre with mee Sequere me Follow me Neither tell mee in way of prouing the same That S. Peter cut off Malous care And if from that wee fall
your own Translator else where translates so Pa. Yet Primasius S. Austines Scholler reads it as it is in our vulgar Latin With such hosts God is promerited Prot. Yea but how know you that that Commentarie is Primasius his owne for it is the selfe same which is fathered on Haymo who liued after the yeere 800. whose credit is nothing answerable to Primasius Pa. Well let both these places passe Is not a plaine text for extreme vnction which is in S. Iames Infirmatur quis in vobis If any among you bee dangerously sicke let him send for the Priests of the Church and they to pray ouer him anealing him with oyle in the name of the Lord. Prot. Of whom learned you to translate Infirmatur quis in vobis If any man bee dangerously sicke c. I thought the word Infirmatur had signified any infirmitie great or small growing vpon a man And if so then the text makes as much against you as vs. For first you aneale not all such persons as are infirm but only such as you suppose to be desperately sicke sick vnto death Secondly you send not Presbiters Priests but any one bold Priest to anoint them and pray ouer them Thirdly you intend principally in anealing them the forgiuenesse of sinnes whereas by the text is principally intended the curing of them of their infirmities Which is so plaine that a Cardinall of your owne renounceth this text as not making for you Pa. What Cardinall is that Prot. Caietan whose wordes these are Nec ex verbis nec ex effectu verba haec loquuntur de sacramentali vnctione extreme vnctionis sed mag is de vnctione quam instituit Dominus Iesus in Euangelio à discipulis exercendam in agrâ—tis Textus enim non dicit Infirmatur quis in vobis ad mortem sed absolute infirmatur quis Et effectam dicit infirmi alleuiationem de remissione peccatorum non loquitur nisi conditionaliter quum extrema vnctio non nisi prope articulum mortis datur Et directe vt eius forma sonaâ—â— tendiâ— ad remissionem peccatorum praeter hoc quod Iacobus ad vnum agrum multes presbyteros tum orantes tum vngentes mandâ—t vocari quod ab extrema vnctionis ritâ— alienum est Pa. But is not that a plaine text for proofe of satisfaction which is alledged by Doctor Harding out of 2 Cor. 7. 1. Prot. What are the words Pa. Seeing then wee haue these promises dearely beloued let vs clense our selues from all filthinesse of the flesh and spirit making perfect our satisfaction in the feare of God Prot. These are plaine words I promise you But I doe not remember that I euer read such words either in the Greeke or in any translation Your Doctor I beleeue hath shewed a piece of cunning and chopt in the word satisfaction for sanctification and quite altered the Apostles meaning Pa. God forbid he should haue dealt so naughtily But what say you to the text alledged by Cardinal Hosius out of Rom. 6. 19. for the same doctrine of Satisfaction Is it not pregnant to his purpose Prot. How cites he it Pa. Exhibeamus membra nostra seruire iustitiae in satisfactionem Let vs exhibit our members to serue iustice vnto satisfaction Prot. In good earnest this is a plaine text but it is none of Saint Pauls It is one of your Cardinalls owne making As Harding in the former so your Cardinall in this hath chopt in the word satisfaction for sanctification and made a proposition of his owne different from S. Pauls I wish it were no Argument of their sanctification to deale so falsly with the Scriptures they had need to make satisfaction though not to God because they cannot yet to his Church for such bad dealing Pa. But are there not expresse words for the supremacy of S. Peter Matt. 16. where we read thus Thou art a rocke and vpon this rocke will I build my Church M. Walsingham saith That the Author of the answere to M. Charks booke giues this for one instance in way of prouing that expresse Scripture is for vs. Prot. I know no such text in S. Matthew as Thou art a Rock I finde there Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I will build my Church but Thou art a rocke and vpon this rocke I will build my Church is not in any booke nor in any Bible that I haue seene Pa. Are these words Dies prima erit sancta septima eadem Religione venerabiles The first day shal be holy and the seuenth day with like religion shall be venerable wherby Cardinall Bellarmine would proue That euery holy thing is to bee religiously worshipped in your Bible mee thinkes they are plaine to proue his purpose Prot. Yea but those are not in my Bible nor in yours I thinke your false Cardinall hath most irreligiously chopt in a word religiously in the Text make search and trust me worse another time if it be not so Pa. I will I warrant you In the meane let mee heare what plaine Text you can alledge for proofe of your opinions Prot. Content Doe not these words in Deutronomy 4. 15 16 Take heed vnto your selues for yee saw no Image in the day that the Lord spake vnto you in Hereb that yee corrupt not your selues and make you a grauen Image c. plainely proue That the Scriptures forbid the representing of God by any Image And yet doe not yee represent God the Father by the Image of an old man and the most of you maintaine That hee may lawfully be represented in such an Image Pa. I confesse with Vasquez That in the words you cite planè indicat Scriptura c. The Scripture speakes plainely that God did forbid the Iewes to represent him by any Image But you must know that Licet in lege veteri prohibitae fuissent lege dâ—uâ—na imagines visibiles nedum ipsius Dei sed qu rumcunque sanctorum hominum nec de post in Scripturis siue veteris siue Noui Testamenti concessa licentia eius faciendi aut fabricandi reperiatur nihilominus Ecclesia Catholica edocta à spiritu sancto nedum permisit imo statuit ordinauit vt venerabiles Imagines Christi gloriâ—sissimae suae matris caeterorum sanctorum fierent c. Though in old time the visible Images of God yea and of his Saints were forbidden by the Law of God and no libertie granted since either in the Old or New Testament to make any such yet the Church which is taught of God hath not onely permitted but decreed and ordained That the Images of Christ and his blessed Mother the Virgin Mary and the rest of the Saints may bee made for sundry good purposes Prot. What dare you say The Church hath decreed contrary to that which God commanded in holy Scripture If so you must needs grant That the Scripture in this is for vs and against you The pretended Church not
later Bellarmine Both of them alledge the selfe same Fathers Greek and Latine for the proofe of their seuerall opinions which argues they conceiued differently of the Fathers meaning In like manner it is questioned betweene vs and you Whether the words of Saine Peter 1 Epist 3. 19. are to be vnderstood of Christs discension into hell in soule after his death And your Rhemists would perswade vs That S. Austine found himselfe sure that so much was plainly proued therby yet Bellarmine confesseth Non vult Aug. hâ—â—c locuâ—â— ad Inferâ—s pertinerâ— That S. Austin did not thinke Christs discension into hell was proued thereby A great question it is euen amongst your selues Whether the words of Christ Ioh. Chap. 6. be to be vnderstood properly of the Sacâ—ament or no Caietan Iansenius Hessels Tapperus and some others hold negatiuely Roffensis Bell. Maldonate c. hold affirmatiuely Now Caietan proues his Negatiue ijs dem modis quibus Roffensis stabiliuit contrarium sententiam authoritate sanctorum pracipue B. Aug. By the same Arguments that Roffensis proued his affirmatiue euen by the testimony of the Fathers especially of S. Austin as Tapperus witnesseth In King Henry the Eighth dayes there was a great controuersie among your selues Vtrum ducere relictam 〈◊〉 mortui sine liberis it a sit de iure diuine naturali prohibituÌ„ vt nullus poâ—tiâ—ex super huiâ—snoodi mâ—trimonij contract is sine contrahenâ—is dispensare posset And the most famous Vniuersities in France and Italy grounding themselues vpon the Scriptures and Fathers were of opinion That marrying of the brothers wife was so forbidden that no dispensation could make it lawfull And to that purpose some learned man made a booke Now the Fathers whereon the Vniuersities and the Author of the booke rested were Origen Chrysostome Basil Hierom Augustin Greg. c. Yet Bellarmine and the Author of the booke intituled Apologia Tumultuaria c. alledge the same Fathers to the contrary I did not thinke the Fathers words had beene so subiect to different constructions But I must put off the further dispute about the Fathers till our next meeting which shal be God willing erre long while God be with you onely remember I pray you that which is written 1. Tim. 6. 3. 4. and 5. verses If any man teach otherwise and consenteth not to the wholesome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlinesse He is puft vp and knoweth nothing but doteth about questions and strife of wordes whereof commeth enuie strife railings euil surmisings Froward disputations of men of corrupt mindes and destitute of the truth which thinke that gaine is godlines from such separate thy selfe FINIS The Errata pag 5. lin 8. for with read about p. 6. l. 19. for by read the case p. 9. l. 17. threaten for threape p. 10. l. 6. our for your in marg staditas for studites l. 17. we for yee p. 15. lm 9. you say truely for you say not truely ibid. 〈…〉 l. 31. our for your p. 17 l 10 readâ— not what wee can doe p. 20. l. 14. that read the. pa. 21 l. 25. I will vse read I will not vse p. 22. l. 3. yet the read yet that the. ibid. fit it read fiâ—ten p. 23. l. 14. bold read bald ibid. l. 28. effectum read effectum p. 25. l. 25. a for the. p. 28. l. 22. for read of p. 34. marg Malliensibus read Masâ—il p. 35. l. 2. was the read was in the. p. 36. lin 22. eauden read euden p. 39. l. 1. Dorantes read Durantus p. 42. l. 6. offred read offereth a 2. Cor. 11. 20 b Esay 9. 16. c Ieâ— â—0 6â— d 2. Pat. 2. 1 2 3 e Campiâ—n rat 8 f Rhem. Annot at marg in Luk 6. 1. 1. Pet. 3. 19 g Bell. de nâ—t i.c. chlib 4. c. 9. h ibid. i Austin lib. de haresâ— 54. k ibid. l ibid. m ibid. n ibid. o ibid. p Idem lib. 1. de funct beatit Cap. 2. ct 4. q N. D. in his 2. part of 3. conuers chapt 2. sect 14. r chapt 3. sect 6. 1 ibid. t Rehm Annot. Heb. 7. 17. u Annot. in Mat. 19. 16. x Annot. in Mark 1. 8. y Annot. in 2. Pet. 1. 15. z Annot. in 2. Pet. 2. 18. a Gagge of the new Gospel Nu. 16. b Idem Nu. 26. c Idem Nu. 27. d Idem Nu. 40. e Idem Nu 46. f Rossaus lib. de iusta Reip. Christ in reges impias â—t haret authoritate cap. 4. Nu. 6. g ibid. h Cope deal 6. c. 21. i See the booke pag. k Campian rat 10. l Greg. de valent Analys fid Cathol lib. 5. cap. 1. pag. 18. m Idem lib. 7. Assertio probanda n Gagge of the new Gospel preface to the Catholicke Reader o Discip de TeÌ„p ser 121. p Seo Fox Acâ—s Mon. in Hen. 8. Treatise of the persecution in Scotland q Apologet. Cap. 1. a Allen Apology of the Seminaries c. 5. f. 58 b Campian rat 10. c Rock of the Church Ch. 8. p. 193. d Motiue 48. e Epist. 80. f Teste Espentao Comment in Tit. c. 1. p. 104. 105. g Apud Hassenmullerum Hist Iesuit ord cap. â— p. 428. h Conc. 3. de Lazaro printed at Basil 1530. i Pighius Hierarch Eccles l. 3. â— 3. 5. c. 3. Simanea Instit Cathol c. 57. nu 12. k In Arg. lib. de prâ—scipâ— adu here per Tertul. l Not in Tertul de prâ—scrip adu harâ—t c. 39. nu 237. iuxta edit Pamel m Motiâ—s 48. n n Simanea Institut Cathol c. 44. nu 2. 3. impres Valissoleti A. 1552. o Extro de Maeiori obed Cap. vnaÌ„ sanctam p Extra de Maeiorit obed Cap sâ—lita q Ibid. r Loca supra Citato Å¿ Sentron t Ibid. u Roffens adu Luth. Act. 16. Eckius in Enchirid Tit. de Communione sub altera specie x Bell. 4. de Euch Cap. 24. y Eckius loco citato z lib. 2. de Monach. Cap. 35. a Lib. 2. de Minach Cap. 36. b Staphylus in Apolog. c English Festiual feria 4. post fostum palmaruÌ„ d Ledesma de diuin script quauis lingua non legend C. 22. e Innocent 1 â—â—pist ad Eâ—uperiâ—â— vide Gratian d. 82. proposuiâ—lâ— f Bell. l. 1. de sanct beatit Cap. 20. g Ibid. h Ibid. i Greg. de valeuâ—ia de Idolâ—lat Chap. 7. k 1. Cor. 6. 4 l Bell. l. 5. Rom. Pont. Cap. 7. m Apol. of the English Sem. fol. 57. o Answer to M. Charkspref p. 57 * Districtisâ—imi Monachi p Ioh. de Polemar Orat. in Cone Basil apud Binnium 〈◊〉 4. Conc. p. 385. q Teste Azono To. 2. Instit Moral lib. 11. Cap. 2. 14. quaritur r Lib. Conformitat B. Franciseâ— per Pi saum â—di Bonon 1590. l. â— Fructus 1. fol. 13. Col. 3. Å¿ Lib. 1. Fructius fol. 113. Col. 3 t Lib. 1. Fructus 9. fol.