establisht it could not be Christ the son of God because he wanted prouidence and vpon this reflexion he renounced Christ and became a Jew And no man can say but that he acted and behaued himself like a true Child of the Reformation in so doing for he followed scripture as he vnderstood it and as he was a true Reformed Child in forsaking Popery because he vnderstood by Scripture that the Reformation was better so since he vnderstood by reading Scripture more that Judaism was better than the Reformation he acted like a good Reformed in chosing that which he vnderstood by Scripture to be the best this is the Reformations Rule of faith do you if you please as he did and you 'l be as good a Reformed as he And if you choose to believe that there is a Church establisht on earth by Christ you must beware never to believe or perswade yourself that wee are bound to believe her Docctrin or live in her if you do not judge by scripture that she teachs the Doctrin of Christ This is the most essential point of Popery An obligation of submitting our judgments to the Church and believing her Doctrin without any more examin and in this the Church of England is much like the Popish Church which by acts of Parliaments and other severities would oblige all men to believe her Doctrin Rites and Ceremonies No God has given vs scripture for our Rule of faith as wee forsook the Popish Church because wee discouered by Scripture her many Errors in Doctrin so wee are not bound to believe the Doctrin of any other Church but as wee find by scripture her Doctrin is true Do and speake as Luther to 1. Edit Jen. in Resolut I will be free and will not submit to the authority of Councils Popes Church or vniversity to the contrary I will confidently teach whatever I judge to be true whether it be Catholic Doctrin or hereticall condemned or approued Ismael Must I not believe that the Doctrin of Jesus Christ delivered to his Apostles and the Church is true Doctrin Isaac The Reformation teaches it is and you may safely believe it You may as safely believe it is not in the Principles of the Reformation because it teaches that Christ err'd in Doctrin and manners Vere Pharisaei eâ—ant viri valde boni saies Luther Christus minime debuit eos taxare and Calvin saies it s a folly to think he was not ignoranâ— in many things lastly David Georgius a Man of God and of a holy life saies Osiander writes If the Doctrin of Christ and his Apostles had been true and perfect the Church which they planted had continued but now it is manifest that Antichrist has subverted it as it 's manifest in Papacy therefore it was false and impeâ—fect See these words quoted in the historie of David George printed by the Divins of Basile at Antwerp an 1568. both Doctrins are Scripture as interpreted by men of sound judgment a Child of the Reformation may believe which he will Ismael Is it not the Doctrin of the Reformation that the Apostles were infallible in their Doctrin much more must wee believe that Jesus Christ was so Isaac Yes it is you may believe it and it s also the Doctrin of the Reformation that they were not infallible neither in their written or vnwritten Doctrin so many of our most renowned Drs speake and whatever any men of sound judgment judge to be true by scripture is the Doctrin of the Reformation Zuinglius one of the greatest Oracles of our Church saies It 's a great ignorance to believe any infallible authority in the Ghospels or Epistles of the Apostles Beza not inferiour to Zuinglius blotted out of S. John the historie of the Woman Adulteress judging it a fable Clebitius affirms that Luk's relation of Christ's passion is not true because it does not agree with that of Mathew and Mark and more credit is to be given to two than to one Calvin saies Peter consented to and added to the schism of the Church to the ouerthrow of Christian liberty and Christ's Grace Whitaker sais It 's evident that after the Descent of the Holy G. the whole Church even the Apostles erred and Peter erred in Doctrin and Manners Luther saies Peter liued and taught extra Verbum Dei and Brentius his disciple saies that Peter and Barnabas togither with the Church of Ierusalem erred after receiving the H. Ghost If our Rule of faith be Scripture as each Person of sound judgment vnderstands it vndoubtedly this must be the Doctrin of the Reformation and may be believed by any Reformed since its Scripture interpreted by such renowned men Ismael This is most wicked Doctrin I 'l never believe it Isaac Jf you think by Scripture its wicked do not follow your Rule of faith Scripture as you vnderstand it but if an other vnderstands by scripture as those authors did that the Doctrin is good give him leave to believe it hee 'l but follow his Rule of faith Scripture as he vnderstands it Ismael I would gladly know which are the true Canonical bookes of scripture Isaac The Reformation teachs and you may believe with the Church of England that S. Paul's Epistle to the Hebrews those of James and Jude the 2. of S. Peter the 2. and 3 of S. John are true Cononical Scripture the Reformation also teachs they are not Canonical because Lutherans deny them believe which you like best But if you l ' live in peace and out of all strife with Protestants Lutherans and others who dispute if this or that be Canonical Scripture your rediest and speediest way will be to say ther 's no true Canonical Scripture Scripture is no more to be regarded than other pious bookes if you say this is not the Doctrin of the Reformation reade Hossius de expresso Verbo Dei lib. de Haer. where he relates this to be the Doctrin of the Swiâ—feldians as good Reformeds as the best of vs they say that wee are not to regard any instruction from man or book but Gods immediat inspiration which speakes secretly to our hearts for which they alleadge those comfortable words of the prophet I will hear what my Lord my God speakes in me for say they the book which we call Scripture is a creature and we must not seeke for light and instruction from any creature but from God the Father of Lights This is Scripture as interpreted by men of sound judgment any Child of the Reformation may believe it Ismael I thought to settle my mind in my choyce of som Religion and you go the way to beate me from all for if you renvers the authority of Scripture what warrant shall wee haue for any Religion God forbid the Reformation should deny the true Canon or the infallible truth of Scripture and let all the world say the contrary I will constantly revere and believe it's Gods infallible
meete in any of them the works of Lurher Calvin Beza or any of our own authors if you do not meet som Comedies or Romances if you reade our Modern Writers you shall find their bookes to be stuft with arguments stolen from Stapleton Peron Bellarmin and other Popish Drs. wheras they ought to take their Doctrin from Luther Calvin and our other first Reformers Apostles raised by Gods heavenly Spirit Oracles by whose mouths and pens he delivered the pure and Orthodox Doctrin of the Ghospel heavenly Fontains from which wee ought to drink the Doctrin of the Reformation therefore J have made a particular study for the comfort of my Reader not to profane this Treatise with any quotation of any Popish Writer none but our own Drs. Secondly my Reader will be pleased with this Treatise because J do not oblige him to believe the contents of it if he mislikes any Doctrin couched in this booke let him not believe it if he likes it let him believe it what J pretend is to maintain his libertie for to believe or not believe what he please and that none can say black in his eye for believing whatever he judges to be the sense of Scripture let all others think of it what they will for our Rule of faith as J will prove being Scripture as each Person vnderstands it who can be so bold as to check you for teaching and believing what you vnderstand scripture to say som Doctrins there are in this booke delivered by Luther Calvin Zuinglius Beza and others which our Church of England and som others do call blasphemies and scandalous Tenets and their irreverence and arrogance is run so farr as to condemn those blessed men for teaching such Tenets and say that they swerved from the truth and had their fraileties in so much that many of vs are ashamed to own those great men to have been our Reformers and leaders this is an impiety altogither insupportable it cannot be suffered with patience that such Apostolical men who were vndeniably our first Masters of the Reformation should be so vilified and abused therefore J do prove that ther 's no Doctrin delivered by them but is to be esteemed and called the Doctrin of the Reformation and can be according the Principles of the Reformed Church believed and taught by any Reformed Child for what is our Rule of faith in the Reformation but Scripture as each Person of sound judgment vndestands it consequently what is the Doctrin of the Reformation but what any Person of sound judgment vnderstands to be of Scripture whatever Doctrin therefore Luther Calvin or others judged to be of Scripture how can you deny it to be the Doctrin of the Reformation or blame them for teaching and believing it if you do not like it the most you can in justice do is not to believe it but you cannot justly say it s not the Doctrin of the Reformation because it 's Scripture as vnderstood by Persons of good judgment nor can you in justice blame them or any other for believing it if they like it for must not wee believe what wee judge in our conscience to be the Doctrin of Scripture Lastly my Reader will be pleased with the sincerity and plain dealing of this Treatise as much as wee are all offended by the dissimulation and double dealing of our Modern Writers whose aim and scope in the bookes they give out Seems to be nothing else but to say soâ—what whereby they may be thought tâ— be no Papists and nothing is less founâ— in their Writings than the pure and orthodox Doctrin of the Reformationâ— and what is to be bemoan'd that youâ— hardly see in the houses or hands of thâ— flock the works of Luther Calvin oâ— our other first Reformers they are hiâ— from vs to keep vs in ignorance of thâ— true Reformed Doctrin and wee see buâ— Bramhal Tillinson Taylor Stillingfleet Thorndik and such others whose Doctrin is neither Popery nor of the Reformation but a new compound of both they do so mangle the questions controverted with their scholastical subtilities and distinctions as if they werâ— ashamed to own openly our Tenets and did endeauor to get the opinion oâ— moderat sober men with the Papists by drawing as neer as their Interest caâ— permit them to their Doctrin Ask them if we be obliged to believe the Doctrin and sense of scripture delivered by a general Council our first Reformers resolved roundly that we are not nay Luther saies expresly we are bound to gainsay and work against the Decrees of any Council but our Modern Doctors answer with a pretty Distincction Ther 's a civil obligation quoth one but no obligation in conscience Ther 's an obligation in conscience saies an other provided you do not believe they are infallible you may believe they are infallible objectively or terminatively saies an other but not subjectively they are infallible in fundamental points saies an other but not in inferior Truths An other will come yet and say they are absoluty infallible in all Articles and thus by little and little the Papists gain ground against vs and the lustre of our Reformation is clouded by the cowardliness or insincerity or hiprocisy of our Modern teachers 1. Kings 18. How long halt ye between two opinions if the Lord be God follow him but if Baal then follow him Luther Calvin Beza and our other first Reformers were raised by God to teach vs the purity of the Ghospel let vs not be ashamed to follow their Doctrin to speake preach and believe as they did Therefore J do propose their Doctrin in this Treatise in its native coulours that if you like it you may believe it and if any be so bold as to Say you believe fals or scaâ—dalous Doctrin you must answer iâ— the Doctrin of the Reformation bâ—cause its Scripture as vnderstood bâ— Persons of judgment and the greate Oracles wee had and if you do noâ— like it you may deny it but bewaâ— never to blame or check any other foâ— believing it this is the Holy libertie oâ— the Ghospel and of our Primitive Râ—formation FIRST DIALOGUE ISMAEL I have read your Preface and Principles me thinks you drive to establish a new Religion for that vnlimited libertie which you assert for to belieue or not belieue whatever we please with a safe Conscience is not allowed by any of our Reformed CongregatioÌ„s and it were to be wisht you should rather stick to som one of the Congregations now establisht than to erect a new one for we have but too many already Isaac The Lord forbid I should think or speake otherwise then as becometh a true child of the Reformation If you will oblige me to belieue Scripture as interpreted by the Lutheran Church the like I say of any other Congregation and deny the Tenets of all others what difference betwixt me and a Papist in the electiâ— of my Religion for the Papist's Râ—ligion must be no other but Scriptâ— as
interpreted by the Pope and CoÌ„ciâ— my Religion must be Scripture as intâ—preted by the Lutheran Church aâ— no other my judgment and Conscieâ— therefore is as much constrained as tâ— of the Papist and our separation frâ— Popery will com to be but an exchanâ— of one slavery for another in thâ— our judgments and Consciences wâ— slaves to the Pope and Councils â— this we are slaves to the Lutheâ— Church We became a Reformatâ— by shaking of the yoke of Popâ— from our judgments and leaving thâ— free for to belieue Scripture as wâ— the assistance of Gods spirit each oâ— best vnderstands it and if we â— continue a Reformation we must â— submit again our judgments to aâ— other but retain that blessed liberâ— we recouered for to belieue the Teâ— of any Congregation I confess this â—bertie is not allowed by any one pâ—ticular Congregation as you obserâ— but you must also grant me that â— allowed taken by the whole bodâ— of the Reformation for in this whoâ— body as it comprehends Protestants Lutherans Presbyterians c. one CoÌ„gregation believes what the other denies and in any of them a man may live with a safe Conscience which you will not denie therefore any man has full libertie for to believe or deny with a safe Conscience the Tenets of any Congregation hence it follows and to my grief I speake it that no particular Congregation be it of England France or Germanie has the true spirit of the Reformation in doting so much vpon their particular Tenets as to thinke they cannot be as well denied as believed and in looking vpon them with so passionat eys as to censure check and force others to believe them you shall see by this discourse that the true spirit of the Reformation is not in any one particular Congregation separatly taken from the rest for each particular Congregation constrains as much as it can all people to believe its own Tenets Protestancy would have vs all to be Protestants and would root Lutherans out of the world as well as Popery Lutherans would if they could draw all to their own Nett Presbytery esteems itself to be the best of all would crush Protestancy if it could This then iâ— the spirit of each particular Congregation a Limiting confining spirit to som particular Tenets with an exclusion of all others but looke on the whole Body of our Reformation aâ— it includes all Reformed Congregations distinct from Popery there iâ— a holy extension of spirit and libertie for to be either Lutherans Presbyteriants Protestans and any thing but Popery and whatever any Congregation may say of an other but all vnanimously agree that the spirit of the Lord is in the whole body of the Reformation since therefore that in this whole Body there is a latitude libertie for to profess divers and oppositâ— Tenets and that each Tenet is believed by one and denied by others we must grant that this holy libertie for to believe or deny any Tenets we please is the true spirit of our holy reformation It 's not therefore to be wisht as you do that I should stick to any one particular Congregation or Tenets for such a restriction is meer Popery and your bemoaning the multiplicity of our Congregations is profane and Popish No it s a blessing of the Lord vpon our Reformation for which we shall never sufficiently thank him that we see it divided into so many Godly branches In the house of my father said Christ there are many mansions Joan. 14.2 Ismael By your discourse you seem to allow that we may with a safe conscience change Religions as often as we please and be to day a Protestant to morrow à Lutheran next day a Presbyterian and so run ouer all Isaac I know you will be startl'd at my answer for J am not ignorant that all men apprehend it to be absurd to change run ouer so many religions but truth must be declared though it may seem a scandal to the Iews and a folly to the Gentils It s therefore the Doctrin of the Reformation that we may with a safe conscience be to day Protestanrs to morrow Lutherans in France Hugonots in Hungarie Antitrinitarians in Poland Socinians ad in London of any Religion but Popery Ismael For shame you fouly imposâ— vpon the Reformation ther 's not anâ— Congregation that teachs such à scandalous and absurd Doctrin Isaac By your favor I loue thâ— Reformation as the apple of my eye and will never yield to any in my zealâ— for its honor and doctrin J am so faâ— from imposing upon it that I will evidence your error in denying this to bâ— its Doctrin and it will appear thaâ— whoever will deny it to be very lawful to change Religions as time and occasion requires must renounce the besâ— and fundamental Principles of our Reformation must impiously condemâ— the practise of our first Reformers Ismael How will you make it ouâ— that this Doctrin is grounded vpoâ— the fundamental Principles of our Reformation wheras there is not onâ— Congregation of ours but abhorrs it Isaac Sr. You may well perceive by the tenor of my discours that J am piously and charitably iealous with each particular Congregation thaâ— my drift is to shew that each of them none excepted swerves from and transgresses against the true spirit and solid Principles of the Reformation as wiâ—l further appear in this discours It s vâ—contestedly true that the Rule of faith of the Reformation is Scripture as the humble of heart assisted with the spirit of the Lord vnderstands it for Lutherans will never admit their Rule of faith to be Scripture as interpreted by the Church of England but as interpreted by themselves nor will England admit Scripture to be their Rule of faith as it is interpreted by the Presbyterians but as interpreted by the Church of England so that the Doctrin of each Congregation is but Scripture as interpreted by them and wheras all these Congregations joyntly compose the whole Body of the Reformation and each Congregation is truly a member of the Reformation the Doctrin of the Reformation coms to be Scripture as each Congregation and person of sound judgment in the Reformation saies the Church of England in her 39. Artic. interprets it This being an vncoÌ„trouled truth what man of euer so sound a judgment but may read to day Scripture as interpreted by the Lutheran Church and judge in his conscience that interpretation and Doctrin to be true consequently he may with a safe conscience profess that Religion soon after he may meet Calvins bookes charm'd with the admirable strength of his reasons and glosses vpon Scripture he may judge in his conscience he is to be preferr'd beforre Luther and so may lawfully forsake Lutheranism for Calvinism then again he hits vpon Scripture as interpreted by the Church of England whose Doctrin ravish's him with that decencie of Ceremonies that majesty of her lyturgie that harmonie of her Hieraâ—chie
he is convinc't its better that Calvinism embraces it Then again he reads the works of Arius and convinc't by the energie of his argumentâ— and texts of Scripture produced by him may alter his judgment and become an Arian Wherin can you say does this man transgress against the Doctrin or principles of the Reformation Does he forsake the Reformation because he forsakes Lutheranism for Calvinism No sure for Calvinism is as much of the Reformation as the other Is not Protestancy as much the Doctrin of the Reformation as Presbyterie tho he changes therefore one for the other he still holds the Doctrin of the Reformation Is not the Doctrin of the Reformation Scripture not as Protestants onely or Presbyterians onely interpret it but as any Congregation or man of sound judgment holds it It is therefore evident that according the Doctrin and principles of the Reformation he may with a safe conscience change Religions and be to day of one to morrow of an other vntill he runs all ouer Point me out any Congregation the obstinat Papists excepted who will dare say I cannot live with a safe conscience in any other Congregation but in it self all other Congregations will laugh at it Why then may not I lawfully forsake any Congregation and pass to an other And be in England a Protestant in Germany a Lutheran in Hungarie an Antitrinitarian or Socinian Ismael It 's against the grain of mans reason to believe that we can with a safe conscience change Religions as you say If you be a Protestant and you judge it to be the true Religion you are bound to stick to it neveâ— to change it Isaac If I did discourse with a Papist I would not wonder he should say it against the gâ—ain of mans reason tâ— believe it lawfull but I admire thaâ— a Child of the Reformation be he oâ— what Congregation he will should bâ— so ignorant of his principles as to saâ— a man cannot change Religions wheâ— he please nor do I vndertake to provâ— against the Papist that this is lawfull but I vndertake to prove it lawfull against any Reformed Child or forâ— him to deny the principles of the Râ—formation Is it against reason thâ— a man may read to day Scripture â— the Lutherans interpretation vpon iâ— like it very well that he shoulâ— in this case embrace that Religion Is it against the graine of mans reasoâ— that this same man should next yearâ— afterwards hit vpon Calvins workâ— vpon Scripture and after better consideration think his Doctrin to surpass that of Luther could not he then being obliged to choose the best forsake Lutheranism and stick to Calvinism And is it against mans reason that he in following years may meet other bookes of Arians Socinians c. do the like Have not we many examples of his in our best most renowned Reformers Did not Ochinus that great light says B. Bale in whose presence England was happie reading Scripture judge the Reformation to be better then Popery of a Capuchin fryar became à Reformed after som years reading Scripture he judged Judaism to be better than the Reformation became a Jew Did not Martin Bacer one of our first Reformers of England composers of our lyturgie reading Scripture judge Lutheranism to be better than Popery of a DominicaÌ„ fryar became a Lutheran soon after reading Scripture he judged Zuinglianism to be better than Lutheranism became a Zuinglian not long after he became a Lutheran again as he confesses forsooke Lutheranism the second time and returned again to Zuinglianism as Sklusser says Did not Cranmer one of our firâ—t Reformers also of England composers of the 39. Articles a wise and Religious man profess Popery iâ— Henry the VIII time and compose â— book in defence of Real presence theâ— in Edward the VI. time vpon betteâ— consideration be professed Zuinglianism and writ a book against Real prâ—sence then again in Queen Mary'â— raign being sentenc'd to death he declared for Popery but seeing his recantation could not preserve his life he renounced Popery and dyed a Zuinglian I would tyre your patience iâ— reading myne in relating the number of our prime and most renowneâ— as well first Reformers as Learneâ— Doctors who without any scruple chaÌ„â—ed severall times their Religions noâ— in te Principles of our Reformatioâ— ought they to be blamed for when our Rule of faith is Scripture as witâ— the assistance of Gods spirit we vnderstand it who doubts but we may tâ— day judge sincerely Luther's sense of iâ— to be true to morrow we may reaâ— with more attention judge Ariâ—â— his sense to be true next day that oâ— Calvin so of the rest And do noâ— think but that we have in England many Abettors of this Doctrin alas how many Bishops Deans and rich ParsoÌ„s do we know haue we known who were Zealous Presbyterians and declared enemies of Protestancie in our Gratious Soueraign's exile and no sooner was he restored had Bishopricks and Ecclesiastical dignities to be giuen but they became stiff Protestants Observe the difference Betwixt the Papists and vs if of a Papist you becom of any other Congregation the Popish Church excommunicats you thou art Lookt vpon as an Heretic Apostat a strayd sheep they will not admit you to their communion or lyturgy nay could they well auoid you they would neuer admit you to their Companie and why Because they are fondly perswaded their own is the only true Religion and all others to be synagogues of Satan and if any of vs will become a Papist he must first abiure his former Profession but if of a Protestant you should become a Presbyterian a Lutheran Quaker or of any other of our Societies you are neuer Looked vpon to be a jot the worse for it we are not a Whit scandalized at such changeâ— which we daily see and it is an â— speakable blessing with what accoâ— vnity and charitie you may sâ— at our lyturgie communion the Prâ—testant Presbyterian Anabaptisâ— Socinian and Hugonot all praysiâ— the Lord in one Congregation in oâ— Churches none bid out of the Churcâ— none excommunicated no previoâ— abjuration required of their formâ— Tenets ther 's nothing more fâ—quent among vs then to go to tâ— Protestant Lyturgy in the morninâ— in the euening to the Presbyteriâ— especially if our interest or conâ—nieÌ„cie requires it Can there be a mâ— convincing proofe that we esteâ— it all alike what Religion Tenâ— we profess let a Lutheran go â— France alas hee 'l neuer stick toâ— to the Hugonots meeting and seruice let a Protestant go to Germany heâ— go as cheerfully to the Lutheraâ— Church as in England to the Prâ—testant let a Hugonot or Presbyteriaâ— go to Hungary or Poland he is weâ—com to the Antitrinitarians Socâ—nians and when any of them returâ— home hee 'l be as before Ismael But can you prove this Doctrin by the testimony of
king himself nor any other did doubt of their Right and now most of our Congregations do absolutly deny any Right in our Clergy to those Rents because they are no Clergy yet none will be so bold as to accuse Henry the VIII of sacriledge for hauing taken the Church Liuings from them for to put them to better vse And why should wee dare say our king would commit any for depriving our Clergy of those Rents believe he can lawfully do it or believe he can not you 'l be still a good Child of the Reformation Believe what you please Ismael This is a ticklish point let 's leaue it to the consideration of our wise and prudent Parliament and be pleased to answer to my doubt how can wee live in peace and tranquillitie in Religion if our Rule of faith be Scripture as each one vnderstands it I remember a discourse started in the house of Lords not many yeares agon by his Grace the Duke of Buckingam he desired to know what was it to be a Protestant wherin did Protestancy properly consist the Bishops who were present looked one vpon an other and whether they feared the difficultie of the question or that for modesty's sake each expected to hear an other speake firstâ— they stood sylent for a whyle at last the yce was broken by one others followed but hardly any two agreed and all that the Duke could gather out of their several answers was that our Rule of faith was Scripture as each one vndestood it and Protestancy nothing but Scripture as interpreted by the Parliament and Church of England whervpon he concluded Wee are these hundred yeares very busy for to settle Religion and for ought I perceive wee are as vnsettled now as at the beginning And truly he had great reason for Religion and faith is nothing else but that sense of Scripture which each Person of sound judgment vnderstands and as it 's impossible wee should all jump and agree in one sense and meaning of the text so its impossible wee shall euer be settled and agree in Religion Isaac The reason of our vnsettlement hitherto and at present is the violent efforts what by persecutions Acts of Parliaments and other oppressions what by Invectives intrigues and cabals of the Church of England to draw all to be Protestants of the Presbyterians to make vs deny Episcopacy and of each other Congregation to force vs to their respective Tenets and whylst this constraint and severity is vsed against mens consciences it s in vain to expect peace or settlement in our Reformed Church but let vs follow our Rule of faith let cach one believe as in his conscience he best vnderstands Scripture let vs all believe what wee please and be permitted so to do and wee shall without doubt enjoy perfect peace and Tranquillity believe you Figurative Presence if you will let the Lutheran believe his Real Presence if he likes it and let me believe no Presence at all if I judge ther 's none why will not you permit me to follow that Rule of faith which the whole Reformation euen the Church of England gives me in her 39. Articles Scripture as each Person of sound judgment vnderstands it To say wee can neuer have settlement in Religion whylst this arbitrary interpretation of Scripture is permitted is to speake like a Papist this the Pope and Papists said to our first blessed Reformers and the Popish Church saies this day to vs that wee ought to submit our judgments to the Church and Councils that wee ought not to believe what sense wee think to be true but what the Pope and Councils propose vnto vs and if Luther and our other Reformers did not do ill in follwing their own sense and interpretation of Scripture against all the world why do you blame me or any other for following their example Ismael When you speake of our Reformation and Congregations I heare you reckon the Arians Socinians and Antitrinitarians among them sure you do not belieue they or such like ancient condemned hereticks were of the Reformation for wee Protestants do believe the Mystery of the Trinity against them and will never own them to be our Brethren Isaac And do not you believe Episcopacy against the Presbyterians som Canonical Books against the Lutherans Supremacy against the Quakers and Infants Baptism against the Anabaptists and yet you own them as your Brethren and godly Congregations of the Reformation or if you will deny them they will also scorn you and say they are more of the Reformation than you are and why will not you own the Arians c. as your Brethren tho you believe the Trinitie against them you say they are old condemn'd Heretiks and does this language becom a Child of the Reformed Church by whom were they condemn'd was it not by the Popish Church which also condemns vs and saies wee are as much Hereticks as they and as wee ought not to be so called and judge the Pope and Councils sentence against vs to be bold vncharitable and injust so wee must say of the Arians Pelagians and others condemn'd by them You saie Protestants will never own them to be their Brethren God forbid the Protestant Church should be so vncharitable to their fellow Christians and so injust to themselves B. Morton as I cited in my first Dialogue as learned a man aâ— the Church of England bred saies the Arian Church is a true Church and will say no less of the others but what need wee the testimonie of any for what reason so convincingly proves They who walk by one and the same Rule of faith are of one and the same Religion therefore Lutherans Protestants Presbyterians and Independents do esteem themselves to be of the same faith and Religion because they all have the same Rule which is Scripture â— each Congregation vnderstands it also notwithstanding the difference and varietie of Congregations in Popery they hold all but one faith as they say because they have alâ— but one Rule of their beliefe whicâ— is their infallible Pope and Church but it 's evident that those which yoâ— call Ancient condemned Hereticks have one and the same Rule of faith with our Reformation for ours is Scripture as each Person of sound judgment vnderstands it without any obligation of holding the sense of it delivered by Pope Church Councils or any other therefore our first blessed Reformers did not care what sense of it the Church or Pope did hold when they began to preach the purity of the Ghospel but each of them interpreted it as he thought fit in the Lord and so purged the Church of many Errors This is the very self same Rule of faith which Arians Pelagians Nestorians and others peremptorily condemned by Rome as Hereticks did follow and walk by each of them read and interpreted Scripture preached and believed what sense of it they tought to be true tho they knew it was against the Doctrin of the Church looking on
Mother of the Virgin Mary why did not you put in also Elizabeth mother of the great Baptist and the Angel Gabriel as well as Michael Ismael J know not indeed Isaac Nor do J know if it be not because that Elizabeth and Gabriel made the Popish Ave Maria as Scripture relates but can you tell as the Church of England put in your Kalender S. George S. Andrew and S. David Patrons of England Scotland and Wales why did not she put in S. Patrick Patron of Ireland Ismael J can't tell what may be the reason think you Isaac J know not if it be not that he forfeited his place for his Purgatorie for tho the others were as deep in Popery as he if wee believe the Papists but the Parliament pass'd an Act of Indemnity for England Scotland and Wales after the kings return to his kingdoms and thereby the sin of Popery was forgiven to their Patrons and no act of Indemnitie was past for Jreland whereby Patrik is still guiltie if it be not that the Seaven Champions of Christendom tell us S. Patrick was S. George his footman and it was not thought good manners to put him in the same rank with his Master Ismael For shame if not for piety forbeare J cannot endure to sully sacred things with profane Ralleries the Kalender is a holy institution of the Church and ought to be reverenc'd Isaac And so is Episcopacy surplices Bells Organs and Corner Capps yet J hope you will give Presbyterians Anabaptists Quakers c. leave to laugh at them and be still as good Children of the Reformation as you if you esteem them to be sacred and holy reverence and honor them J commend you for it if others judge otherwise let them follow their humor each one as he fancies saies the fellow kissing â—his Cow this is the holy Libertie of the Reformation Scripture as each one vnderstands it Ismael Let vs return to our last discourse how is it possible that those Tenets of Popery should be the Doctrin of the Reformation wheras wee see the Church of England so severely persecut the Professors of them Isaac Do you think a Doctrin is not of the Reformation because it s denied by the Church of England or because she persecutes the Professors of it do not they persecute all non Conformists as well as Popery persecution is no proof of a Doctrin to be bad it 's but the effect of a blind zeale armed with power for to know certainly if a Doctrin be of the Reformation you must trye it by our test or Rule of faith which is the Written Word of God and whateuer any man of sound judgment of a sincere and humble heart judges to be contained in Scripture or an indubitable consequence out of it that man may believe that Doctrin let all others judge of it as they list and by so believing will be a true Child of the Reformation wherefore since that the Church of France that of England in Edward the VI. time Luther Melancton Grotius and the other authors J quoted do judge Transubstantiation Popes Supremacy and Communion in one kind to be the Doctrine of Sctipture wee must call it the Doctrin of the Reformation and if you judge as they did you may believe that Doctrin and be still of the Reformation as well as they Ismael Can you shew me any other Tenet of Popery which you can call the Doctrin of the Reformation Isaac Alas you can hardly shew me any Tenet of Popery but what is its Doctrin what Doctrin more Popish than that of Confession and Absolution from sins yet it s as truly the Doctrin of the Reformation as Figurative Presence for not only Lobechius Altamerus Sarcerius and Melancton say it s a Sacrament but the Church of England in our Common Prayer booke declares that Priests have not only the power of declaring their sins to be forgiuen to the Penitents but also the power of forgiuing them and sets down the form of Absolution which the Minister is to vse Our Lord Iesus Christ who left power to the Church to absolve all sinners which truly repent of his mercie forgive thee and thine offences and I by his authoritie committed vnto me do Absolve thee from all they sins the ministers of the Diocess of Lincoln in their Survey of the book of Common Prayers checkt this Doctrin as Popery and petitioned to have it blotted out but could not prevaile whereby we are given to vnderstand it s the Doctrin of the Reformation It 's Popery wee say to call Extream Vnction Confirmation and Holy Order of Priesthood Sacraments and who can justly denie all this to be the Doctrin of the Reformation for Calvin saies I confess the Disciples of Christ did vse Extream Vnction as a Sacrement I am not saies he of the opinion of those who judge it was only a Medecin for corporal diseases Calvin also and with him our Common Prayer book and all our Divins say a Sacrament is nothing els but a Visible sign of the invisible Grace wee receive by it and they say with Couel Hooker and others that this definition fits exactly Confirmation wherfore the Ministers of the Diocess of Lincolne checkt the Common Prayer book for giving the Difinition of a Sacrament to Confirmation Melancton Bilson Hooker and Calvin expresly teach that the Order of Priesthood is a SacrameÌ„t And when men of so emineÌ„t judgment of our Reformation teach this to be the Doctrin of Scripture who doubts but that it is of the Reformation Ismael By this you destroy the Doctrin of the Reformation of two Sacraments only Isaac Destroy it God forbid Because the Church of England saies there are but two Sacraments I say its the Doctrin of the Reformation there are but two and because so many eminent men judge by Scripture there are more J say its the Doctrin of the Reformation there are more that 's to say six Baptism Confirmation Eucharist Pennance Extrem Unction and Holy Order and every likely our Bishops and Ministers for their Wyves sake will not stick to grant that Matrimony also is a Sacrament Ismael But can you say that Prayers to Saints and Jmages Prayers for the dead and Purgatorie are not meer Popery and in no wise the Doctrin of the Reformation Isaac Without doubt those Tenets are Popery but all the world knows the Lutherans vse Jmages in their Churchs and pray before them and the â—oly synod of Charenton has declared as wee said in our first Dialogue that the Lutherans have nothing of Superstition or Idolatry in their manner of Divin Worship this is also the Doctrin of Jacobus Andreas Brachmanus Kemnitius Luther and Brentius quoted by Beza and why should not a Doctrin judged by such eminent men to be of Scripture be called the Doctrin of the Reformation Prayers for the dead and Purgatorie is Popery confessedly but alas it is
taught expresly by Urbanus Regius Bucer Zuinglius Melancton Luther the Common Prayer book in king Edwards time printed 1549. and many others of our learned Drs and what can you call more properly the Doctrin of the Reformation than what such men teach to be the Doctrin of scripture And tho our Brethren Quakers Anabaptists Presbyterians and Protestants judge Prayers to Angels and Saints to be nothing else but Popery yet our Common Prayer booke has the same Collect or Prayer to Angels in S. Michael's day that the Popish Mass Book has and desires that the Angels may succour and defend vs on earth and prayers to and intercession of Saints is taught by Luther Bilneus and Latimer quoted by Fox and consequently its the Doctrin of the Reformation Ismael If all these Popish Articles may be safely believed by the Reformation and be the Doctrin of our Reformed Church as well as of Popery what difference then betwixt vs and Popery or why are we called a Reformation of Popery or why did wee separat from them Isaac J have told you already that our difference from Popery is not because wee must deny what they believe for wee believe as well as they the Unity and Trinity of God the Jncarnation of his son c. but in this that the Papists believe because the Pope and Church saies this is true revealed Doctrin but wee believe not because any Church Pope or Doctor saies so but because wee ourselves judge by scripture it is so for if a Papist did say I do not believe this is a revealed Truth because the Pope and Church saies it is but because I find by scripture it is he would be no Papist believe then whatever Doctrin you will either Popery Iudaism Protestancy Arianism or what else you please provided you judge by scripture it is true and that you believe it not because this or that Church Congregation or Drs believe it but because yourself judges it to be true you 'l be a true Child of the Reformation And this is the reason why wee are called a Reformation and why wee separated from them because they would haue vs take for our Rule of faith Scripture as interpreted by them and believe not what wee judge to be the Doctrin of Scripture but what they judge and this is also the Reason why Ptesbyterians are jealous with the Church of England why Anabaptists forsake Presbyterians why these are forsaken by Quakers because each one would haue the world judge as they do and persecute and trouble one another which is quite against the Spirit of the Reformation for wher as our Rule of faith is no Church Congregation or man but Scripture as each one vnderstands it it follows that by our Principles every one must be permitted to believe whatever he pleases and by so doing he will be a true Child of the Reformation Ismael The Church of England nor any of our Congregations will neuer believe any of those Popish Tenets Isaac The time may come that they may believe them all and be still as good Reformeds as now they are for if the Pope and his Church should to morrow deny and excommunicat those Tenets which now they so stedfastly believe and I hope they will som day then it would be a pious and virtuous action in all Reformed Children to believe them all as much as now they deny them and let vs pretend what other reason wee please but it s very certain that the strongest reason wee can haue to deny those Articles is because the Pope and his Church believes them and consequently if the Popish Church would but deny them wee might and ought to believe them you will think this a Paradox but listen to our Apostolical and Divin Luther If a general Council saies he did permit Priests to marry it would be a singular mark of piety and sign of Godlyness in that case to take Concubins rather than to marry in conformity to the Decree of the Council I would in that case command Priests not to marry vnder pain of damnation And again saies he if the Council should decree Communion in both kinds in contempt of the Council I would take one only kind or none See these words of Luther quoted by our learned Hospinian and Jewel and see it s not only my Doctrin but of great Luther that in case the Pope and Council deny all the Tenets they now believe wee may and it will be a pious godly action to believe them and make as many Acts of Parliament for them as now wee have against them But what 's the matter me thinks you become pale som thing troubles you speake what i st Ismael It 's the horror J conceive against your discourse my countenance cannot be in a calm when my mind is in such a storm and confusion pursue no more you said enough that J should curse the day J haue euer seen you or heard that which you call Holy Liberty which is but a prostitution of Consciences a profanation of all that is sacred and an open gap to all impiety in Doctrin and manners but J hope the Lord has giuen me that profound respect and attache to our holy Reformation that I shall not be beatten from it by all your engines able to inspire a contempt and hatred of it to any weake Brother for who would liue a moment in it if such impious Tenets such sandalous and blasphemous Doctrins were of it or were vnauoidable sequeles out of its principles No No the Principles of the Reformed Church are sound and Orthodox and no Doctrin can follow from them but what 's pure and true Isaac Let me tell you J have as tender a loue for the Reformation as you and J will maintain the holy Libertie J assert cannot justly be called a prostitution of Consciences for you dare not deny but this is an Orthodox and sound Principle that our Rule of faith is Scripture as â—ach Person of sound judgement vnderstands it that it is lawfull for each person of sound judgment to reade it to giue his judgement of the true sense of it and to believe and hold that sense of it which he thinks in his Conscience to be true is there any prostitution of Consciences in this Doctrin or is it not the Doctrin of our Reformation Ismael All this in true the prostitution of consciences leyes not there but in the scandalous and blasphemous Tenets which you pretend that follow out of that Rule of faith Isaac But you wrong the Reformation in calling such Tenets blasphemies and scandals for since our Rule of faith is Scripture as each Person of soud judgment vnderstands it if this Rule of faith be good and sound if it be religious and holy any Doctrin that is conformable to this Rule must be good sound religious and holy this being our Rule of faith and manners it s cleerer than day light