and other cleargie orders they haue baptisme the Eucharist and all other things He proceedeth affirming that the church was in times past knowne by miracles but now they are either ended or els in greater number with false Christians yea he auerreth that a man might know by the liues of men which was the true Church but now Christians were worse then either hereticks or Ethnicks If this worke were written by an Arrian as some say yet there is no cause to condemne this excellent sentence prooued by so weightie reasons The eight reason Scriptures We haue finished by Gods assistance seuen Reasons some of which as the Doctour seemeth to graunt are nothing worth without Scripture and therefore he saith that they teach not any doctrine but such as is deriued out of the holy Bible If you would abide by this confession you would not hold so many vnwritten opinions as you doe For adoration of Images for the halfe communion for the Popes not erring for the lent fast with other points of Poperie what scripture is there It is one of your principles Cens Colon. that traditiones ecclesiae non scriptae credendae ac seruandae sunt vnwritten traditions are to be beleeued and kept Hence I conclude after this manner They which hold opinions by vnwritten traditions deriue not all their opinions out of the scriptures But the Papists hold some opinions by vnwritten traditions Ergo. But good M. Doctour are we driuen to denie certaine parts of Gods holy Bible for the maintaining of our opinions and are the Manichees our predecessours take heede least by auouching vntruths you doe vastare conscientiam make shipwracke of conscience If Luther reiected the epist of S. Iames what is that to vs Caietane will haue it to be minoris authoritatis quam caeteras Bell. lib. 1. cap. 17. 2. booke 23. of lesse authoritie then the other epistles Eusebius saith sciendum est eam esse adulterinam we must know that it is a bastard epistle Euseb 3.22 cap. Now I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which refuse bookes of Scripture frame that bible to their opinions But the Protestants refuse bookes of Scripture Ergo. I denie the assumption which is set downe without any proofe and for the disproofe of the same I will not content my selfe with a few fathers but will produce a cloud of witnesses that the Papists may see their proud bragge of fathers Origen at Eusebius speaketh thus Euseb hist 6. booke 24. Hand ignorandum fieret esse veteris testamenti libros sicut Hebraei tradunt viginti duos qui etiam numerus apudeos est literarum We must vnderstand that there are 22. bookes of the old Testament as the Hebrewes doe teach which also is the number of letters Hence I gather that if the Canonicall bookes answer the hebrew letters then there are but 22. otherwise there should be more then the letters are Melito numbreth the same bookes which we doe excepting the booke of Wisdome as witnesseth Eusebius 4. book 25. Cyril of Ierusalem in his 4. catechisme exhorteth the Catechumenes to read 22. bookes but that he reckneth Baruck with Ieremie he reckneth the same which we doe and directly warneth vs vt cum Apocryphis nihil habeamus negotij that we haue nothing to doe with Apocryphal bookes for saith he multò prudentiores te religiosiores fuerint Apostoli primi Episcopi veritatis duces qui nobis eas tradiderunt the Apostles and first Bishops were wiser and more religious then thy selfe they deliuered these scriptures to vs. Leontius in his 2. action of sects agreeth with these authors saying that veteris scripturae libri sunt viginti duo there are 22. bookes of the old testament Innilius reiecteth the Machabees from diuine scripture quoniam apud Hebraeos super hac differentia recipiebantur libri Canonici sicut Hieronymus alijque testantur because with the Iewes the canonicall bookes were receiued with this difference as Ierome and other writers witnesse He reiecteth Iob and some other bookes which are Canonicall by his owne reason namely because they were of that authoritie with the Iewes Amphilochius differeth not from the aboue named writer after that he hath set downe the same number which we doe excepting the booke of Wisdome which yet it may be but put in for verse because he reckneth but three of Salomon after I say he concludeth thus hic verissimus divinitus datarum est scripturarum Canon this is the most true Canon of the diuine scriptures Ruffinus in his exposition vpon the Creede saith that he will describe the Canonicall bookes of the olde testament which he doth after our order in England and acknowledgeth that non Canonicos libros legi voluerunt in ecclesiis sed non proferri ad authoritatem ex his fidei confirmandaÌ„ they wil haue the books that are not Canonicall to be read in Churches but not to be aleadged to confirme a matter of faith I will not produce the testimonies of Hierome Epiphanius Nazianzen Athanasius and others because they are obvious to euery one neither will I conuince the Doctour by his owne writers as Caietan Hugo and Arias Montanus Iosephus is worthie to be heard who plainly teacheth that duo solum viginti libri fide digni esse creduntur Euseb 3. lib. hist â—0 onely 22. bookes are to be credited By this cloud of witnesses I hope Christian Reader thou maist see the vanitie of Papists who doe nothing but crepare patres patres crie the fathers they are on their side I returne the Argument They which adde bookes to diuine scriptures draw the holy Bible to their fancies But the Papists adde whole bookes to diuine scriptures Ergo Where he saith that the Catholikes follow the bible I will not stand vpon that famous corruption of the Hebrew psalter by an English Papist to iustifie their vulgar latin text but come to one place out of which they would gather purgatorie Where it is said that a certaine sinne shall not be forgiuen neither in this world Math. 11. nor in the world to come we expound it by Marke who saith it shall neuer be forgiuen the Papist saith Matthew must not be expouÌ„ded by Marke because he is shorter but is he not plainer How absurd is it to expound these words â—ell lib. 1. de into cap. 4. he hath neuer forgiuenes to this sense whereas to expound the words of Matthew by Marke hath an excellent construction Thus euery man may see who draw the scriptures to their fancies whether Papists or Protestants The 9. reason Councells Whether the Church of God hath euer bin accustomed when any heresie did spring vp therein to gather a Councell of Bishops Prelates and other learned men I will not stand to dispute If your meaning be M. Doctour that nothing is heresie but that which is condemned by a Councell Lib. 4. cont dâ—â—s epist Pelag. in fine I vtterly renounce your vaine conceit Let Augustine
booke of his Confessions shall finde that he did beleeue the Scriptures for themselues In his 14. chap. of the booke cited by the Doctor he writeth thus Quid putas faciendum nisi vt eos relinquamus qui nos invitant certa cognoscere postea imperant vt incerta credamus eos sequamur qui nos invitant prius credere quod nondum valemus intueri vt ipsa side valentiore facti quod credimus intelligere mereamur non iam hominibus sed ipso Deo intrinsecus mentem nostram firmante atque illuminante what haue we to doe but to forsake them that inuite vs to know certaine things and afterwards command vs to beleeue vncertaine things and to follow thē which inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to behold that beeing made stronger through faith we may attaine to vnderstand that we beleeue now not men but God himselfe confirming and lightning our minde inwardly The spirit of God therefore must cause vs to beleeue otherwise we shall wauer and stagger To conclude this point many borne in heresie and schisme haue bin mooued by heretikes to beleeue the Scriptures is heresie therfore equal to the scriptures nothing lesse The three Creedes we receiue because the doctrine is contained in the scriptures but you doe not receiue Athanasius his Creede for he maketh but two places vitam aeternam ignem aeternum Omnes homines resurgent cum corporibus suis reddituri sunt de factis preprijs rationem qui benè egerunt ibunt in vitam aeternam qui verò malè in ignem aeternum All men shall rise with their owne bodies and shall giue an account of their deedes and they which haue done well shall goe into life euerlasting they which haue done euill into euerlasting fire You teach that Infants vnbaptized shall be in a brimme of hell and not in the fire of hell Thus if you had bin wise M. Doctor you would haue bin silent concerning these Creeds If I should shew your contrarieties to the Apostles creed I should be ouerlong That the holy Ghost doth proceede from the Father and the Sonne Lib. 2. de Christ cap. 22. Bellarmine prooueth plentifully out of the Scriptures What an ignorant Doctor is this that cannot see this mysterie prooued in holy Scripture Touching the tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments what if they be not in Scriptures the heauenly doctrine signified by the words is contained in scriptures If these wordes were necessarie to saluation then men were damned before they were inuented which I thinke the Doctor will not grant for many beleeued the things although the names were not extant Augustine calleth the bookes of Tobie and other Canonical because they were read to edification for I hope you will not oppose his authoritie to so many Fathers as I haue before produced In the place by you cited he will haue those books which are receiued of all Churches preferred before those which some Churches receiue not hence it is manifest that he maketh not all of equall authoritie Lib. 2 con gaud cap. 23. Elswhere he will haue the bookes of Machabees read so it be non inutiliter sobriè not vnprofitably and soberly Why doth he giue this caution to these bookes if they were of like authoritie And in his booke de praed Sanct. c. 14. he confesseth when he did produce a testimonie out of the booke of Wisdome that the brethren did reiect it there he contendeth not much for it If it had bin Canonicall he should not haue so remissely pleaded for it Thus it appeareth why he calleth these books canonical Where you say that no heretike can charge the Church with adding or diminishing one iot from the Scriptures we must admire Gods prouidence and his loue towards his church he preserueth the Scriptures though men would take thē out of the world But if you meane that the church of Rome hath not altered the holy Scriptures you must know that the Papists hold the Hebrew and the Greeke text to be corrupt and haue established a Latin translation differing farre from the Hebrew and Greeke and is not this to alter the scriptures If I should shew the corruptions of that trāslation I should be very tedious I will name one in the 1. of the Hebr. it is said Christ hath purged our sinnes by himselfe these words by himselfe are cleane stricken out of their Rhemists translation what an intollerable corruption is this But I will conclude the matter in a syllogisme They which establish a corrupt translation alter the scriptures or at least a iot of the same But the Papist establish a corrupt translation Ergo. And indeede I cannot sufficiently wonder at them who establish their Latine translation eo nomine because it is Hieroms and yet will not allow his translations of the Psalmes what dealing with the Scriptures is this he hath corrected that translation of the Psalmes which they vse and yet they haue defied it You further demand why we should trust the Church of Rome rather in this then in other things I answer first that as I haue prooued we trust not the Church of Rome but the scriptures themselues secondly it is a ridiculous consequent We beleeue the church of Rome in this point ergo we must doe so in all other To make your follie manifest vnto you selfe M. D. you beleeue the church of England in some points will you doe so in all I would it were so That we haue had nothing to doe with the Bible for a thousand yeares and that we haue robbed the Church of many bookes are detestable vntruths But I pray you Syr were not the scriptures preserued in the Greeke church as well as in the Romish church did not the Iewes keepe the scriptures and yet to vse your phrase our Sauiour wrested thē out of their hands not as iust but as vniust possessours of them The Pharisies might haue vsed the same speech to our Sauiour Christ that the Doctor doth to vs. He hath three other questions in this chapter The first is how we relying onely vpon scripture can shew certainly which bookes be scripture and which not This question I haue at large answered in this chapter and therefore I will not repeat my answer Secondly he would know of the vnlearned Protestant how he knoweth the translations to be true I answer that it is not necessarie to know euery thing to be truly translated The spirit of God speaking in the scriptures certifieth the conscience of the vnlearned that the scriptures in the English tongue are the scriptures The third question it why we beleeue our owne iudgements rather the Luthers or Calvins I answer we beleeue their iudgements that bring best proofes out of Scriptures But M. Doctor because you haue posed vs with so many questions now I will pose you with one likewise Why doe you receiue your latin translation rather vpon this Popes authoritie
things but in scoffing manner if you doe seriously hold them prooue them seriously and not with ridiculous authorities The 11. reason Triall of truth That it appertaineth to the Church to trie and to discerne Spirits as also to determine and to decide doubts we confesse M. D. Trie all things saith Paul 1 Thess 5. 1. Ioh. 4. and S. Iohn commandeth vs to prooue the Spirits But the question is whether you are the Church or no Quid ergo facturi sumus what shall we doe I answer with Augustine propounding this question cap. 2. de vnitat that we must seeke the Church of Christ in his word qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum who is truth best knoweth his bodie Where you say that we cannot otherwise but receiue the scriptures vpon the catholike Romane churches credit and also three Creedes and some articles of beleefe as the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne and many tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments I will answer these points seuerally And first I desire to know what reason you haue to make a particular church as the Romane church Catholike The Romane church if it were a true church is but a part of the catholike church It is Catholike saith Augustine because it is per totum through the whole world de vnit cap. 5. Cyril in his 18. chap. among many reasons of the name giueth this Quia per vniversum sit orbem terrarum diffusa because it is diffused thorough the whole world Is it all one to say I beleeue the Catholike Church and to say I beleeue the Romane church To leaue this matter and to come to your speech that it is not possible to know the Bible which is vsed amongst Christians to be the true word of God indeede but vpon the Romane churches credit First such idle questions the olde heretikes the Manichees demanded of S. Augustine to whome S. Augustine answered Lib. 32. cap 21. cont Faust Man Si quaeratis à nobis vnde nos sciamus Apostolorum esse istas literas breuiter vobis respondemus inde nos scire vnde vos scitis illas literas esse Manichaei If you demand of vs how we know that these be the Apostles writings we shape you this short answer as you know that your writings are of the heretike Manichee Secondly I would know how you can prooue any church to be the church but by the Scriptures if you cannot prooue the church but by the Scriptures then the Authoritie of the church dependeth vpon them and not è contra Thirdly we receiue not the Scriptures vpon the Romane churches credit for then we should haue receiued also the bookes which are Apocrypha as well as the true Canon of the bible for the Romane church doth receiue them Fourthly we receiue the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselues Many men by the heauenly maiestie of the Scriptures are mooued to receiue them before they know which is the true church Gonarus con Cost Iustin Martyr saith that Christs words haue in thâ—â— feare to perswade in dialogo cum Try Mantuan de pat l. 3. c. 2. saith thus Firmiter scripturas ideo credimus quòd diuinam inspirationem intra accipimus we steadfastly beleeue the scriptures because we haue receiued an inward inspiration from God He that will despise the Scriptures will despise the Church He that will not beleeue there is a God because the Scriptures teach it will not beleeue it because the Church teacheth the same The Scriptures were credited before the Romane church was ens or in rerum natura The Apostles beleeued the Gospel of our Sauiour Christ before he wrought any miracle because it was testified by the scriptures Ioh. 1.46 Adam and others beleeued without the church Our Sauiour Christ preached Repent and beleeue the Gospel which some did without the Church Eusebius in his third booke and 21. chap. writeth that the Gospels of Thomas and others were reiected because that phraseos character à consuetudine Apostolica variat ipsa sententia propositum eorum quae in illis adferuntur plurimum à veritate rectae doctrinae discrepant the style doth varie from the Apostolicall manner and the matter and the intent of those things which are alleadged in them doe much differ from the truth of right doctrine The consent of Scriptures the miracles and prophesies with many other arguments draw a man to credit the same yea the deadly hatred which the world beareth vnto them perswadeth not a little Sacris Scripturis saith Bellarmine nihil est notius Lib. 1. cap. 2. de vâ—â— Dâ—i nihil certius there is nothing more knowne and certaine then the Scriptures Read Bellarmine your selfe M. Doctor that he may satisfie you in this point But if we beleeue the Scriptures by the Church doth not the church teach vs to beleeue by the scriptures how can the church rightly perswade vs to beleeue but by preaching and producing of scriptures Ergo the scriptures are of much more force then the bare name of a church For propter quod vnumquodque tale est illud magis tale if the church induceth vs to beleeue then the scriptures doe much more because the church doth it by the scriptures The church is an excellent meanes ordained of God to bring men to beleefe neither doe we contemne the authoritie thereof The Samaritans beleeued by the testimonie of a woman Ioâ— 4. but afterward they beleeued because of Christ himselfe so the Church may bring one to beleeue but afterward to beleeue for the word it selfe The testimonie of Augustine is fraudulently alleadged by you his word is commoveret for he saith As there were many things which held him in the faith so if he were an infidel he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authoritie of the church with other things did mooue him ergo not onely the church and he speaketh if he were an infidell as the wordes going before doe plainly manifest Si invenies aliquem if thou shouldest finde any which yet doth not beleeue the Gospel what wouldest thou doe saying to thee I doe not beleeue then immediatly followeth your sentence I would not beleeue vnlesse c. Nicholaus Clenangis is worthie to be heard concerning this testimonie of Augustine Disp super Gâ—â— con Mirum sane prima specie satis videtur at the first fight it is maruell that he should preferre the authoritie of the church being a stranger in the earth before the authoritie of the Gospel seeing the Church may be deceiued in many things and the Gospel cannot Afterward he giueth the reason of Augustines speach because the Manichees did reiect Scriptures at their pleasures To stand yet somewhat longer in this testimonie Con. lib. 5 c. 1â— Augustine was mooued to beleeue by Ambrose is Ambrose his authoritie therefore equall to the scriptures God forbid whosoeuer listeth to read the 5. chap of the 6.
we denie praier for the dead I answer if Arrius tooke away thankesgiuing for the dead we hold not as he did but if he denied praier for those that were in fained Purgatorie we hold no such place Philastrius chargeth him with condemning of marriage and Augustine with Arrianisme these opinions we detest The fift heresie is that we make no difference of sinnes with Iouinian neither doe we make virginitie any better then marriage I answer that we teach a difference of sinnes some to be greater some to be smaller but we disclaime the opinion of veniall sinnes And if this be heresie then as I haue prooued both fathers and some papists are heretickes Touching virginitie we teach with Paul 1. Cor. 7. that pure virginitie is to be preferred before marriage although we hold that marriage is better then single life where virginitie or chastitie are not kept but counterfeited The sixt heresie is that we despise all holy reliques of Saints with Vigilantius I answer first that Augustine Philastrius and other doe not reckon him amongst heretikes It is not eftsoone heresy if one man calleth it so Hierom calleth Ruffinus an heretike yet M. Harding saith it is straunge so to doe Secondly I answer that if Vigilantius would haue Saints reliques cast vpon the dunghill we hould not with him as for tending of tapers and setting vp of waxe candles Hierom imputeth it to the simplicitie of some laye men and deuoute women that had zeale but not according to knowledge Thus you approoue that which Hierom excuseth Lastly S. Hierom is so hotte against Vigilantius that Erasmus is fayne to saie Conuicijs debacchatur Hieronimus Hierom raileth without measure The seuenth heresy is that we denie with Eutyches the oblation of the sacrifice and the hallowing Chrisme But therefore are we not Eutichians who confounded Christes natures and turned his humanitie into his Deitie as for Pelagianisme and Donatisme we haue nothing to doe with them for Pelagius denyed originall sinne which we teach to be in infants and the Donatists held the Catholike church to be onely in Aphrica and to haue perished out of the whole world we hould noe such thing Nowe I haue finished the doctrine of the ould heretckes in which christian reader thou mayst behold the slaunderous tonge of the Doctor who without conscience when he could not charge vs truly with heresy hath inuented lies for may part these slaunders driue me more and more from Popery and I beseech thee by thy saluation that they way preuaile so with thee Hereafter I must speake of the deedes and manners of heretickes first we are like to Paulus Samosetanus who desired great applause of his hearers for proofe that he did so Eusebius is cited but there is no such thing in Eusebius If this be the manner of hereticks then are Papists hereticks who as it is manifest by the Doctor desire applause of men for learning in so much that they breake out into their owne praises after a most insolent manner as for the protestants they doe noe such thinge and therefore they resemble not this hereticke if hee did so Secondly we are like to the Donatists who ouerthrew aultars the trueth is Christian Reader the altars which the Donatists destroied were not of stone as Popish altars are but were tables of wood such as we haue S. Augustine maketh this plaine in his 50. epistle Thus M. Doctor you see howe your owne quotations make against your selfe By this testimonie we may learne what to thinke of the popish sacrifice as for the Donatists refusing to come to Councels we doe not so but vnfainedly desire a free generall Councell and haue giuen sufficient reasons why we came not to the Councel of Trent The crueltie of the Donatists towards the Catholikes fitly agreeth to papists who after a most sauadge manner haue murdered protestants as the Lord wil one day make manifest to the world As for Claudius de sanctis his testimonie we regard it not The rest of the chapter concerneth the destroying of Idolatrie and Luthers arrogancie with other vaine matters as disputing of women and finding fault with priests liues but I haue answered sufficiently concerning Idolatrie and therefore it is a wicked slaunder that we are like vnto Iulian the Apostatâ— as for the disputing of women let Theodoret answer who plainly testifieth that women did dispute of diuinitie That which the doctor counteth a fault Theodoret approoueth of saying thou maist see our opinions to be held of women and handmaides I wish that women were so cunning in religion that they could mildly and christianly dispute of the same But there remaineth a perilous matter ould heritikes were inquisitiue and desirous to heare of the sinnes and faults of priests and of other Ecclesiasticall persons I will not stand to examine the trueth of this whether heretickes were so inquisitiue or no onely knowe Christian Reader that this sauoreth of Manichisme for the Manichees said Lib. 2. de Maâ— as Augustine sheweth non oportet omnino quaeri c. we must not inquire at all what men they are that professe the Manichees sect but what the profession is The papists would faine haue their wicked liues hidden from men but they cannot for as ignis tunica celari non potest fire cannot be kept in the garment so sinne cannot be concealed in vaine therefore M. Doctor you go about to haue your faults concealed the more you desire this the more men will enquire into your actions because you giue iust cause so to doe Thus hauing answered your accusation of heresie I wil set downe no faine dbut true heresies which you hould Bellar. lib. 2. de purg cap. 6. houldeth that it was true Samuell which appeared vnto Saul this Philastrius maketh an heresie as it is plaine 26. haer Where he prooueth that the soules of the righteous are in the hands of God Secondly the prodiants did vse the booke of Syrach Philastrius haer post Christ 9. soe did the papists as it is manifest in so much that they make the booke canonicall scripture Thirdly the heritickes Angelici did worship Angells August 38. haer so doe the papists as it is euident Fourthly the heritickes called Apostolici taught by practise a communitie of goods so doe the Monkes for they possesse not any thing Fiftly the Euthits would not labour with their hands no more will the idle Monkes Sixtly the Pelagians taught that a man may fulfill the law of God and so doe the Papists yea they vse the Pelagians arguments and answers as I haue prooued in other places Seauenthly the Pepulians permitted priesthood to women August 27. haeres so doe the papists permit women to baptize Eightly Carpocrates did worship the Images of Iesus and of Paul Iren. lib. 1. cap. 24. so doe the Papists Ninthly the heretickes called Apocryphi would not haue the Canonicall Scriptures onely to be read but certaine Apocryphall workes Philast haeres 40. So the Papists will haue Apocryphal bookes to
non comminus videndae pictures are faire a farre off but if the eye draw neare them there is no shew of them Before I come to the matter I will examine the title of his booke in which he hath placed a peece of holy Scripture taken out of S. Peter 1. Peâ— 3. who willeth all men to be readie to giue an answer of that hope which is in them what then is become of the vnfolden faith of Papists who will haue simple men to answer that they beleeue as the Church beleeueth S. Peter speaketh of the hope that is in them not out of them in themselues not in another In a word to say they beleeue as the Church beleeueth is an answer fit for all heretikes Furthermore out of this place of S. Peter we gather that Christian men haue a hope in them yet Pope Iohn the 23. denied the immortalitie of the soule Bellarmine had rather discredit the Councill of Constance in which this is reported then confesse an errour There is one thing yet to be touched in his answer vnto the coppie of a letter in which he protesteth his loyaltie to our late gracious Queene Elizabeth May we trust him If I should demaund of him whether he alloweth the Bull of Pius Quintus or no it may be I should pose him The Papists teach that the Pope may depose Princes and yet they will be good subiects If he answereth that he is not a Papist in this point where is his Vnitie of which he vaunteth in one of his reasons Parrie confessed that euery word in Doctor Allens booke was a warrant to a prepared minde Doâ—t Bill 704. It taught that Kings may be excommunicated depriued and violently handled it prooueth that all warre vndertaken for Religion is honourable Thus M. Doctor you see we haue cause to doubt of your loyaltie but I leaue that to God Almightie who searcheth the hearts of all men and come to your Reasons In answering your arguments I purpose to draw them to syllogismes your first argument hath in it this syllogisme They which make the prophesies of Christ to be false hold a false religion But the Protestants make the prophesies of Christ to be false Ergo they hold a false religion I denie the assumption which you prooue out of the 12. of Iohn where Christ foretelleth that he will draw all men vnto him but by the Protestants doctrine Christ hath not done so Ergo. I denie the assumption againe for exposition of which place of holy writ in hunc locum I produce Augustine who writeth thus Quae omnia nisi ex quibus Ille eijcitur foras non autem dixit omnes sed omnia non enim omnium est sides What all but those out of which Sathan is cast he said not all men but all things for all men haue not faith Againe Augustine writeth thus Aut si omnia ipsi homines intelligendi sunt omnia praedestinata ad salutem possumus dicere If by all things all men are meant we may vnderstand all the predestinate vnto saluation Your other Scriptures foretell the calling of the Gentiles which we confesse To proceede in this argument was not Christ true in his promise when as Act. 1.15 the Church was but about a hundred and twentie soules here is no great number and yet this small number was in a chamber In the 13. of the Reuel v. 3. the whole earth wondered at the beast yet is Christ true in his promise In your Apologie of English fugitiues thus you shall finde it written The whole world did runne from Christ after Iulian to plaine Paganisme after Valens to Arrianisme The Rhemists vpon the second of the Thessalonians acknowledge a reuolt from the Church Nazianzen in his oration of Cyprian saith that Cyprianus in temporibus Decij solus è Christianis est relictus S. Cyprian in Decius his time was the onely Christian Thâ—oph lib. 1. cap. 16. Read Aug. in 128 psal and Teâ—tul eâ—hor ad Caâ—i Paciâ—nus in part ad poâ—ni The Arrian Emperour speaketh thus vnto Liberius Quota pars tu es orbis terrarum qui solus facis cum homine scelerato orbis terrarum mundi â—otius pacem dissoluis What part of the world art thou that onely takest part with the wicked man and dissoluest the peace of the whole earth Liberius answereth Non diminuitur solitudine mea verbum sidei nam olim tres soli fuere qui edicto resisterent In that I am left alone the word of faith is not diminished for in times past there were three onely which resisted the kings edict Thus euery man may see Christ true in his promise though the church be not alwaies glorious in outward appearance I will now retort the argument vpon the Papists themselues They which hold that the faith of Christ may be wholly extinguished make the promises of Christ vntrue But the Papist holdeth that the faith of Christ may be wholly extinguished Ergo. The assumption is auouched by Dominicus Asote who saith Lib. 3. dâ— Papâ— cap. 17. as testifieth Bellarmine himselfe that extinct a fide per discessionem ab Apostolica sede totus mundus vanus erit the faith beeing extinguished by a departure from the Apostolicall See the whole world shall be vaine I may speake therefore of this Doctor as Tullie doth to one Ea in alterum ne dicas quae cum tibi responsa sunt erubescas vtter not these things against another which when they are answered will make thee ashamed Now I come to vntruths which are auouched in this chapter First he chargeth vs that we affirme that almost all nations haue beene in Lucifer his thraldome vntill this our age in which Luther came to expell Lucifer Secondly he affirmeth that in our countrey of England it is most manifest that all were Papists without exception froÌ„ the first christening thereof vntill this age of king Henrie the eight M. Doctor haue you lost your forehead was Iohn Wickliff a Papist I perswade my selfe you dare not affirme it Againe this land receiued the faith in the Apostles time as witnesseth Tertullian in his book against the Iewes But the Apostles preached not Poperie Did the Apostles teach the halfe communion who but blind would affirme it Againe in Pope Gregories time this land differed in ceremonies in celebration of the Masse from Rome as b 2. 2. 93 quaest art 1. arg 3. Aquinas teacheth who list to read more of this point may be referred vnto D. Fulks ouerthrow of Stapletons fortresse Thus I haue answered this first cauill of the Doctor against our religion for I passe by the title that he giueth to Lucifer calling him the master deuill The difference of deuills I leaue to Papists to set forth who are sometimes too familiar with them Tasc temp as Silvester who was made Pope by the helpe of the deuill Luther his speach concerning the restoring of the Gospel must be
vnderstood comparatiuely the Gospel was before his time but it was not in tanta luce in such brightnes as it hath beene since and I trust it shall more and more increase ingratijs Papistarum whether the Papists will or no. They may presse the truth but they shall neuer oppresse it they may vaunt of veritie but they must winne the cause by force of arguments The second reason the name of Catholikes A man may maruell that any who would perswade to religion should make so simple an argument as this They which are called Catholikes are the true Church But the Papists are called Catholikes Ergo they are the true Church The proposition is false Salvianus in the beginning of his 4. booke of prouidence speaketh excellently of this point Nomen sine officio nihil est nam sicut ait quidam in scriptis suis quid est principatus sine meritorum sublimitate nisi honoris titulus sine nomine A name without the dutie is nothing for as one faith in his writings what is principalitie without sublimitie of good works but a bare title of honour For the further handling of this matter we will consider what Catholike is Vincentius Lyrinensis thus describeth this word Catholike Quod ab omnibus creditum est Catholicum est that which is beleeued of all men is Catholike Is Poperie then Catholike which is not beleeued of all men I will name some opinions and prooue them not to be credited of all and I will beginne with the worshipping of Images which I will prooue not to be Catholike Minutius Foelix in his Octauius speaketh thus Cruces nec colimus nec optamus we neither worship nor wish for Crosses Againe in the same treatise it is demanded of Christians Cur nullas aras habent templa nulla nulla nota simulachra why they haue no altars no temples no images The Councell of Eliberis in Spaine haue in plaine words banished them out of Churches Placuit picturas in Ecclesiis esse non debere ne quod colitur aut adoratur in parietibus depingatur We haue decreed that pictures ought not to be in the Churches least that which is worshipped or adored be painted on walls Sigebert in the yeare of our Lord 755. writeth that Constantinus Jmperator Constantinopoli synodum trecentorum triginta Episcoporum congregat in qua edicto promulgato de Imaginibus Dei sanctorum eius deponendis Ecclesiam Dei nimis scandalizat Constantine the Emperour gathered a Councell at Constantinople of 330. Bishops in which publishing an edict against the Images of God and the Saints he doth too much scandalize the Church Thus it appeareth that worshipping of Images is not Catholike Secondly the Papists teach that the Church is built vpon vpon Peters person Is this Catholike doctrine Ionas in his second booke of Images speaketh thus of this point Multi penè omnes Petram super quam aedificatur Ecclesia fidem intelligunt beati Petri quae communis est totius sanctae Ecclesiae videlicet eam quae paulò ante promissionem hanc praecesserat id est tu es Christus filius Dei vivi Many and almost all vnderstand by the Rocke on which the Church is built the faith of blessed Peter which is common to all the holy Church namely that which a little before was precedent to this promise that is to say Thou art Christ the sonne of the liuing God Thirdly the Papists teach that the virgin Marie was no sinner is this catholike doctrine Read Aquinas in his third part the 27. quaest the 4. art and his answer to the third argument where reiecting Chrysostomes authoritie he saith that excessit in illis verbis his words are too broad yet many yeares after Chrysostome was this doctrine held in 22. Math. Theophilact writeth that Marie was ambitiosula tanto sibi filio subdito somewhat ambitious hauing such a sonne vnder her Fourthly the Papists teach that Ministers may not haue wiues is this catholike many hundred yeares after Christ Priests were married In the yeare of our Lord 1074. Hildebrand as Lambertus Schafuaburgensis reporteth decreed that Habentes aut dimittant aut deponantur they which had wiues must either dismisse them or be deposed therefore saith the forenamed writer Aduersus hoc decretum infremunt tota factio Clericorum the whole companie of the Cleargie stormed against this decree The same is also reported by Sigebert saying that Gregorie vxorates Sacerdotes à divino officio removit novo exemplo remooued from diuine seruice the married Priests by a new example What should I speake of prayer in a strange tongue of concealing the Scriptures from the people of summoning of Councells by the Pope These with many other opinions might I shew to be against diuinitie taught in the ancient Church Pacianus thus describeth Catholike that it is Obedientia omnium mandatorum scilicet Dei an obedience vnto all Gods commandements Now let vs see whether you teach obedience vnto Gods commandements or no to let passe Idolatrie and other sinnes M. Perk. ex Molano See more of this point in the Reason of doctrine I come to swearing The Papists teach that they may sweare that they haue not beene at Masse when they haue beene there This is nothing but to prophane an oath as Aquinas testifieth in his 2. 2. 89. quaest art 7. and answer to the 4. argument saying Quacunque arte verborum quis iuret Deus tamen qui conscientiae testis est ita hoc accipit sicut ille cui iuratur intelligit with what cunning soeuer a man doth sweare God who is the witnesse of conscience doth take it as he meaneth to whō a man sweareth Let vs now heare the reason why the name Catholike prooueth a Church because they that are so named haue on their side Scriptures Fathers Councells and Martyrs for of miracles we shall speake hereafter This proud bragge I vtterly denie concerning Scriptures I say with Salvianus in his 5. booke of prouidence that Nos tantùm Scripturas plenas habemus qui eas vel in fonte suo bibimus vel certè de purissimo fonte haustas we onely haue the Scriptures fully perfect which either drinke them in their fountaine or translated out of a most pure fountaine Touching Fathers by that which hath bin said afore it appeareth that they are not all on their side What should I speake of the famous Martyrs in Queene Maries daies which died in the religion now taught in England Thus therefore I returne the argument They which are falsly called Catholikes are not the true church But the Papists are falsly called Catholikes Ergo they are not the true church Concerning the name of Protestants we doe not hold our selues content with it although it be not so bad as the name of Papists and touching the names of Calvinists and Zwinglians they are names invented as Athanasians and Omousians were by the old heretikes But whereas he giueth some allowance to the name
to maintaine their doctrine make their priest is iudges and yet the master of sentences witnesseth Lib. 4. that omnes Sacerdotes non habent scientiam discernendi all Priests haue not knowledge to discerne What wretched iudges then are Popish priests which haue not knowledge But suppose them to haue knowledge can they discerne the heart Augustine demandeth â—â—n 3. vnde sciunt an verum dicam how doe they know whether I speake truth or no seeing no man knoweth what is in man but the spirit of man But if confession be so necessarie why did Nectarius take away confession and leaue it to euery mans conscience how he would come to the communion A certaine noble woman confessed particularly her sinnes to the Priest Socrat. l. 5. cap. 18. and because a Deacon had slept with her this confession of sinnes was taken away Is confession of sinnes for this one fact was taken away what iust cause was there to alter Popish auricular confession let the world iudge Not to be long in this point set apart abuses in confession and we doe not denie it If any be troubled in his minde for his sinnes let him seeke a skilfull physitian Otherwise we say with Chrysostome Homil. 31. ad Hebr. Non dico tibi vt te prodas in publicuÌ„ neque vt te accuses apud alios sed obedire te volo prophetae diceÌ„ti revela domino viaÌ„ tuaÌ„ I wil not aduise thee to betray thy self opeÌ„ly nor to accuse thy selfe before others but I couÌ„sel thee to obey the Prophet saying OpeÌ„ thy way vnto the Lord. And again Si confuÌ„deris dicere alicui quia peccasti dicito ea quotidie in anima if thou art ashamed to tell thy sins to any speake theÌ„ in thy soule Satisfaction depending vpon confession is in the next place to be handled The Catholike Romane religion saith the Doctor teacheth satisfaction to be done either in this life or in Purgatorie and vpon consideration of this they builded so many goodly Churches hospitals c. In few words the doctor hath condemed all their glorious workes as beeing done for wrong endes We acknowledge the satisfaction of Christ to be our onely satisfaction for sinne and say with S. Iohn If any man sinne he hath an Aduocate with the Father Iesus Christ and he is the propitiation for our sinnes Maxius saith that Christi passio nobis sufficit ad salutem Serm. 3. Christs passion is sufficient to saluation And Bellarm. in his 2. booke de iustificat and 5. chap. writeth thus Nihil frequentius omnis scriptura testatur quam Christi passionem mortem plenam atque perfectam satisfactionem fuisse pro peccatis The whole Scripture doth witnes nothing more often then that the suffering and death of Christ are a full and perfect satisfaction for our sinnes If man might satisfie for sinne he might be called a redeemer and a Sauiour which is horrible to heare of Neither doth this our doctrine robbe the poore of their almes children of their education and the sicke of their reliefe and maketh men vnwilling to doe any good at all The Doctor except he be blind may see that men build Colledges and hospitalls and relieue the poore though they doe it not to satisfie for their sinnes but his confession is to be accepted that faith their building and giuing of almes is to satisfie by which he disgraceth all their workes From satisfaction he commeth to freewill saying that their doctrine causeth the people to endeauour to doe good and flee from all euill the Protestant taking it away discourageth men vtterly from doing good workes for who will goe about a thing which is not in his power What could Pelagius haue said more M. Doctor is it in our power to doe good vnto saluation or no without grace answer directly Our Sauiour Christ saith Without me ye can doe nothing Augustine writeth lib. 1. Retract c. 15. that voluntas in tantum est libera in quantum est liberata our will is so farre free as it is freed To set downe our doctrine briefly We say with the same father 3. Hyp. esse fatemur liberum arbitrium omnibus hominibus non per quod sit idoneum qua ad Deum pertinent sine Deo aut inchoare aut certe peragere we confesse that all men haue freewill not that it is able either to beginne or to perfect those things which belong vnto God without God but onely in the works of this life whether they be good or euill To shut vp the matter doth Cyprian withdraw men from doing good when he saith Dei est omne quod possumus all is of God that we doe Now we must speake of the Masse the Catholike Romane religion teacheth the holy Masse to be a sacrifice in which the true bodie and blood of Christ is offered vp which maketh the people so deuout and reuerent I answer first what if the Priest haue no intent to consecrate what then is become of your sacrifice secondly we knowledge no bodily sacrifice for sinne but onely Christ on the crosse And that I make plaine by the Apostles reasons Where there is no remission of sinne there is no more offering for sinne Heb. 10. but by Christs passion there is perfect remission of sinnes ergo Againe Christ died but once ergo he offered himselfe but once Ireneus writeth thus Oportet not oblationem Deo facere we must offer to God Lib. 4. cap. 34. and in all things yeild thankes to the maker with a pure minde vnfained faith steadfast hope and feruent loue offering the first fruits of his creatures And this oblation the Church onely sacrificeth in puritie offering to God of his creatures with thanksgiuing Where is your sacrifice of the very bodie and blood of Christ if the Church sacrificed onely the sacrifice of thanksgiuing Not to heape other testimonies I pray you tell me M. Doctor resolutely and with infallible arguments in which part of the Masse this sacrifice consisteth Bellarmine is his 1. booke de Missa and 27. chap. maketh many propositions and faith some thinke thus and some thus it were therefore good for you to be certaine your selues before you obtrude this sacrifice vpon the people to stirre them to deuotion Now let euery man iudge of this your syllogisme They which teach holy doctrine are the true Church But the Papists teach holy doctrine ergo To make a briefe of that which hath beene handled he chargeth vs with vnholy doctrine because we approoue ministers marriage yet his owne man Panormitan doth the same Bell. lib. 1. de cler cap. 19. Againe he chargeth vs with vnholy doctrine because we allow marriage to the innocent partie after a iust diuorce yet his owne men teach at we teach Caietan and Catharin Thirdly he chargeth vs with the same crime because we teach that all magistrates lawes binde not the conscience yet his owne fellowe Gerson holdeth as we holde Fourthly
temple and a church as I haue prooued Thirdly he saith that by meanes of Images pictures crosses the most vnlearned amongst the people knowe more of the misteries of christian religion then some of our ministers know If this be so it is a horrible shame for ministers for this I know that some vnlerned people haue worshipped Images as gods but indeed what is this but to contemne gods wisome and ordinance who hath not ordained Images to teach the people but his word to instruct them Take heed M. Doctor of this horrible sinne to make your selues wiser then God Fourthly the Doctor saith that we haue noe more warrant for solemnizing of the sonday then we haue for S. Lawrence his day for other reason or warrant we haue none but the authoritie of the Roman church fye fye M. Doctor that you should thus bewray your ignorance Bellarmine in his third booke de cul Sanct. and 11. chap. prooueth the obseruation of the Lordes day by the scriptures if you can prooue the obseruation of S. Lawrance his day by the same warrant you may doe well to shewe vs some of your arguments Other things of lesse moment I let passe because I labour for breuitie The 21. reason The Protestants beginning and proceeding against their consciences This chapter hath many wordes to little purpose first Luther is charged to say that he could see into another mans heart or cōscience who will beleeue Luther should speake thus except he meant he could doe it by plaine words and manifest deeds this M. Doctor you confesse your selfe may be done I hope if Luther saie that he could see into another mans conscience he had no other meaning but by plaine words and manifest deeds Luther was not so sottish as you would beare men in hand to make himselfe a God But M. Doctor if your reason be good to prooue that some Protestants speake and write against their consciences because they suspect others to doe so for commonly a man thinketh others to be as himselfe is then you speake and write against your conscience because you are suspitious yea vpon ridiculous reasons and vntruths you charge men to write against their consciences This is your own reason and argument and therefore cannot be denied For proofe that you charge men to write against their cōsciences onely vpon ridiculous reasons let the reader iudge I will set down your arguments Luther confessed that he began against his conscience ergo he proceeded so M. Doctor to admit your antecedent who wil graunt your consequent for here you say that he proceeded so farre as he thought that by desperate necessitie he must go on and so compare him to Iulius Caesar The truth is he ended his life most heauenly as M. Doctor Whitakers sheweth out of Melancthon and Sleidon We will not credit your slaunderous writings of him but the writings of the forenamed men From Luther the Doctor commeth to Zwinglius who is said to haue denied secretly the reall presence for many yeres before he brake off frō the Roman Church but yet inwardly he dissembled his mind What then if Zwinglius did thus did he therefore proceed against his conscience because he remained sometime in the Romane church after he had seene the trueth of the Sacrament What honest man would shape such conclusions If this be to proceede against conscience Papists in England proceede against their consciences for they continue in our Church though they secretly dissemble their opinions many examples hereof might be giuen Touching Nemo the Anabaptiste what haue we to doe with him The Protestants haue most soundly confuted the sect of Anabaptists when Papists haue taken their ease And Christian Reader I desire thee to behould howe the Doctor dealeth whether against his owne conscience or no I leaue to God in charging vs with Anabaptists speeches whereas we renounce such lewd sectaries as he himselfe can testifie Thomas Bell is as I thinke aliue and therefore can answer for himselfe Wherefore I leaue him who hath learnedly written against Poperie and come to Melancthon who is charged to proceede against his conscience because he was sad and gaue himselfe to weeping O M. Doctor howe doe you forget your selfe is euery one a sinner against his conscience that weepeth and sorroweth and that cannot by and by be comforted Dauid was many times heauie and his soule had not alwaies comfort yet was Dauid a man after Gods owne heart Concerning Carolastadius I will not say any thing neither doe I regard what any Lutherane hath written of Zuinglius and Oecolampadius As for Bucer it is a lewde slaunder that he had no religion at all God wil be reuenged of you M. Doctor for blaspheming his seruants after this manner Bishop Iuell is charged to shewe himselfe without God and conscience he doth rent in peeces the text of Doctors and inuerteth the sense of the same If this reuerend Bishoppe had done thus his enemies would haue found it no doubt M. Doctor you would haue noted some places but seeing you haue noted no such corruptions we account it a detestable lie No no your owne men change the words of Fathers I will referre you to places Bellarm. lib. 1. de grat lib. arbit cap. 11. doeth shamefully corrupt Augustine as I haue shewed in another worke and in his 4. booke de amiss gra and 9. chap. he rendeth in peeces Hieroms saying Againe in his 3. booke de cult Sanct. cap. 9. he doeth horribly cite Eusebius So doeth he also in his 1. booke de Sanct. beat cap. 13. Thus he dealeth not onely with Fathers but with Caluin in his preface de libero arbit and his first booke de Sanct. beat cap. 1. 2. de iustif cap. 8. Read these places your selfe M. Doctor and compare them with the authors and see who corrupt fathers Many other testimonies I could produce but I desire not to be tedious If you could alleadge so many corruptions out of reuerend Iuell I thinke we should haue seene them Thus I pray you consider your owne argument They which corrupt Fathers sinne against their conscience But the Papists corrupt Fathers ergo Pag. 10. The assumption is prooued by the testimonies alleadged and to giue you one or two more Duraeus citing Augustine leaueth out these words Opera sequuntur iustificatum non praecedunt iustificandum Workes followe him that is iustified they goe not before iustification The Rhemists vpon the 19. of Mathew peruert Augustine his words cleane contrarie to his meaning affirming no man to be excluded from the gift of continencie whereas Augustine his meaning is that both the will to be chaste and the power to fulfill that will is the gift of God Nowe I might followe your example of bitternes seeing I haue giuen you so many corruptiōs but I leaue this course and desire you to remember your own argument I come to Papists who seeme to haue proceeded against their owne consciences One Papist in England as
confirme their opinions and to be reade for proofe of them as I haue shewed Yea they fly to traditions which the heretickes before named might also haue iustified if the Canonicall scriptures had not beene sufficient Tenthly the Manichees vsed but one part of the Communion for they would not haue wine so doe the Papists as it is notorious to all men I might mention many other heresies held by Papists but I haue handled them in another worke therefore I will not recite them here Touching the manners of heretickes if crueltie be a badge of heretickes then are Papists rightly mustered amongest heretickes for they haue most barbarously murdered many men as I will shewe God willing in the next reason The 24. reason Peace and tranquilitie It is a heathen Principle that Legem sibi ipsis indicunt innocentiae continentiae virtutumque omnium qui ab altero rationem vitae reposcunt They which require a reason of another mans life make to themselues a law of innocencie continencie of all vertues To accuse men of tumults when they are themselues tumultuous is intollerable Quis tulerit Gracchos de seditione querentes who can beare it that Gracchus should complaine of sedition that Verres should speake against theft and Milo against murther who could thinke that Papists should speake against warres cruelties and outragious tragedies when they haue spilt exceeding much innocent blood The Spanish inquisitions and French Massacres haue murdered men women and children by thousands Phocas murdered Mauritius the Emperour by whose meanes Boniface the Pope obtained that roome and should be called the head of all Churches as Gotfridus testifieth Here Christian Reader thou maiest see that the Pope cam vp by murder Pope Vrban the fixt bound fiue Cardinalls in a sacke and drowned them in the sea He tooke the kingdome of Sicile from the Queene and gaue it to others Symachus and Laurentius did striue for the Popedome which contention lasted yeares cum effusione sanguinis multorum tam clericorum quà m laicorum With the shedding of many mens blood both of the cleargie laietie Alexander 2. Codulus contended for the Popedome which contention vsque ad homicidia prorupit brake forth into murther as witnesseth Sigebert The histories are full of such examples yet saith the Doctor the Catholike Romane religion began with meekenesse mildenesse and with all quiet and peaceable meanes Whereas the Protestants both haue begun and hold on their course with seditious tumults That you may knowe your peaceable proceedings heare what Wicellensis writeth concerning Hildebrande Miscuit se plurimorum mortibus Christianorum succendent vbique incendia bellorum per totum pene Romanum imperium He thrust himselfe into the deaths of many Christians kindling warres almost throughout the whole Romane Empire Iohn Hus was burned although he had safe conduct promised him Certain men called cruciatores whē they should haue gone against the Turke hauing the Popes indulgences defloured women and murthered men to the number of three score and ten thousand Yea saith Landgius Scribi non potest quanta crudelitate vsi sunt It can not be vttered what crueltie they vsed Concerning the troubles in Germanie my purpose is not to speake of them neither will I meddle with the warres in Fraunce or Scotland Diuers countres haue diuers gouernments the tumults of any subiects against their soueraignes as we doe not allow so we may not condemne the poore afflicted Christians our neighbours before we heare what they can say for themselues I am a scholler not a souldier a diuine not a lawier The circumstances of forraine warres fewe knowe besides themselues as also we know not the lawes of those lands we will not therefore enter those acts which haue so many parts precedents causes concurrents From forraine common warres you come to England and are very busie with king Henrie the 8. king Edward the 6. princes of famous memorie It were best for you M. Doctor to leaue kingdoms and studie diuinitie you are so drownd in pollicie that you forget diuinity yet you can without teares recount summarily the troubles of this land So you may doe in regard of Queene Maries times when not onely Cranmer Archbishop of Canterbury Payne◠Bishop of Winchester Barloe of Bath Tailor of Lincolne with diuers other both Archdeacons and Deacons were put from their liuings and wonderfull store of blood shed these are the times that you should lament Yet it is to be lamented that any should be so obstinate on popery as to die in the same As for Queene Elizabeths gratious gouernment you are not ashamed also to controll it Yet Papists themselues teach that it was both milde and mercifull and had not her Maiestie cause to deale with Papists as shee did when the Pope excommunicated her and stirred vp the Northen rebels her owne subiects to rebell against her Doctor Saunders did thrust himselfe into the Irish warres against her Maiestie If the Pope had so dealt with the king of Spaine as he hath dealt with our late most renowmed Queene would the king of Spaine haue taken it When I weighed and considered these things with my selfe I could not but dislike the Romish religion accompanied with tumults insurrections ruines desolations and with all manner of tragicall miseries and cleaue vnto this religion in England which euer teacheth peace as our writings shewe But it may be M. Doctor your owne men will beare some credit with you Cardinall Poole in his imagined oration to Charles the Emperour calling backe his Maiestie from the Turke to leaue all other affaires and to bend his banners against England and encouraging the subiects of this realme boldly to rebell against their Prince speaketh after this manner English men are a people that oftentimes haue deposed their kings for lighter causes This book as reuered Iuell testifieth was abroad and might be seene wherefore if peace wil preuaile with you call to minde that you haue bin the firebrands fo sedition the trueth is you would force to religion but you would not be forced The 25. reason All kinds of witnesses Euery man knoweth or may knowe M. Doctor that your tonge ouerreacheth when you say we can bring nothing to witnes our religiō but only the scriptures We haue produced the fathers of the primitiue Church to confirme the same but if we haue the scriptures on our side it is sufficient though all men were against vs that Gods word is not contrarie it is most true but that your practises are consonant to the same it is most false as likewise that we will admitte noe expositors of holy scriptures but the scriptures themselues that the scriptures expound themselues in matters necessary to saluation I thinke you will not denie your selfe Master Doctor neither will you alwaies take the fathers expositions Caietan confesseth that the sense of the scriptures is not tied to the Fathers exposition as I can shew but you demaund why Luther confesseth that he could not denie the reall