4th For all the pretences of Infallibility in the Church of Rome they cannot decide the Controversies that are among their own Members 5th Both Popes and General Councils have contradicted one another and therefore neither of them can be infallible 6th The pretence of Infallibility in the Church of Rome is nothing but a device to uphold their Temporal Grandeur and Dominion Quest. 21. Why do you think the Church of Rome is in an Error in forbidding the reading of the Bible to the Common People Answ. 1. Because Christ commands all sorts of Men to read the Scriptures Joh. 5. 39. 2. The Berrhaeans are commended for searching the Scriptures Acts 17. 11. 3. The Fathers in the Primitive Church exhorted the People to the frequent reading of the Scriptures 4. St. Paul charges the Thessalonians to take care that his Epistle be read to all the holy Brethren 1 Thess. 5. 27. 5. In the Jewish Church every Family was to have the Law in their Houses and to teach it their Children diligently Deut. 6. 7. 6. The pretence of the Obscurity of the Scripture in many places is insignificant since the Scripture is plain enough in things necessary to Salvation 7. The Church of Rome in forbidding the Bible to the Laity discovers her fear and the weakness of her Cause least the People should see her Errors and forsake her Quest. 22. UUhy do not you believe that the Books call'd Apocrypha are Canonical Scripture Answ. 1. Because the Oracles of the Old Testament were delivered to the Jewish Church Rom. 3. 2. and these were not 2. The Christian Church receiv'd from the Jews no other Books of Canonical Scripture but what are own'd as such by the Church of England 3. The Apocrypha were not written by Men inspired by the Holy Ghost and what is Scripture must be by Inspiration 2 Tim. 3. 16. 4. Some of the Authors beg the Readers pardon for their Mistakes which is not the Language of the Holy Ghost 5. The Antient Councils have rejected these Apocrypha as not Canonical particularly the Council of Laodicea 6. In the Primitive Churches they read these Apocrypha only for the Instruction of Mens Manners but did not resolve their Faith into them no more do we Quest. 23. UUhy do you find fault with the Church of Rome for asserting that the Church of England once a Member of her Communion had no power to reform her self Answ. 1. Because every Church hath a natural right to shake off the Abuses and Corruptions which are contrary to the Word of God 2. It is God's Command to private Men not to suffer themselves to be deluded by the slight of Men and cunning Craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive and therefore much more is a National Church concern'd to do so 3. In vain was any Reformation hoped for from the Bishop and Clergy of the Roman Church 4. It 's the proper Office of the Bishops of a National Church to take notice what Errors creep into their Churches and oppose them 5. And that they have right to do so appears from the Examples the Church of Judah had in the times of Jehoshaphat or Hezekiah or Josiah 6. In throwing off the power of the Pope of Rome we did not throw off Obedience to a lawful Soveraign but Subjection to an Usurper 7. We did no more than what the Orthodox Churches did after the Arian Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia in setting up the Nicene Faith again which those powerful Councils had banish'd 8. We made no new Religion but restor'd the old and built no new House but only swept out of the old the Rubbish which made it unwholesom and uninhabitable The End An Account of the Conference betwixt a Jesuit of the Savoy and my Self the 2d of January Present Mr. Stephens on my side Mrs. Chamberlain and Mr. Chamberlain and the Book-binder about whom the Conference was held he having been six years of the Church of Rome but somewhat unsatisfied and Mr. Lamb. About Seven of the Clock at Night THE first thing Discoursed was about the Doctrine of Calvinists which the Jesuit said made God the Author of Sin I told him that there are several Expressions which if a favourable Construction be put upon them will appear to be otherwise Next he fell upon Luther who should say that no Man could be damned if he would but for his Infidelity I said it was true that God condemned no Man that professed himself a Christian but for his Infidelity The Jesuit asked whether if a Man committed Theft he may be call'd an Infidel I said he acted like an Infidel and in that Act was so because he acted contrary to his Belief Mr. Chamberlain putting in something about that place 1 Tim. 2. about one Mediator The Jesuit argued he wonderd we should talk of one Mediator when every Man that pray'd for the other was a Mediator I told him in a large Sense he might be called so but in the Controversie before us were meant Mediators which are religiously worshipped Here happened a great rambling Discourse about Faith As distinguished from all good Works but I told them that by Faith I did not mean the bare Assent to the Doctrine but a practical Belief as it takes in the whole Word of God and living according to it The Book-binder was gone to call Mrs. Chamberlain and coming again by this time The Jesuit said they were come to satisfie Persons under some Doubts and therefore must fall upon some more material Points and since we Protestants sent people to the Scripture it was necessary we should begin to talk of the Rule of Faith and therefore he desired to know how we knew the Scripture to be the Word of God and from whom we had received our Bible I told him we had received it from the Catholick Church whose Testimony was very considerable in this Case He ask'd hereupon when we went off from the Church From what Church we did immediately receive it I answered him both from the Western or Roman and from the Churches of the East However I told him I would fairly grant him that we had received it immediately from the Church of Rome and I desired him to make the best of it Here he asked how we could receive the true Bible from a corrupt Church I asked him whether I might not receive a Pearl from a Chimney Sweeper He said we looked upon them for Rogues and Rascals Whereupon I told him we give them no such Language However sinc he used these Names whether a Man might not receive a 100 l. in very good Money from Rogues and Rascals He then argued That we look'd upon the Church of Rome as a corrupt Church and how can we be sure that we have the true Bible since we cannot be sure that a corrupt Church had not corrupted it I told him that they confessed themselves they had not corrupted it and besides they could not corrupt it for the Cheat
used as a means to get Money 5. By these Indulgences men are hindred from a true Repentance for they pretend to release Men by them both from Sin and Punishment at least the People are suffer'd to think so if they do but say so many Prayers or go in Pilgrimage to such a place or fast so many days from some kinds of Meats or give a large sum of Money for the building of a Church or go to War against Infidels c. Quest. 15. Why do not you think Auricular Confession to a Priest necessary to Salvation Here you must Note That we are not against Confession in the Church of England nay our Church presses it both publick and private to God and Confession to a pious and able Minister if the Conscience be burden'd and upon a Death-bed but we dare not say as they do in the Church of Rome that a Man cannot be pardon'd or saved except he Confesses to a Priest 1. We allow not of it in the sense of the Church of Rome Because there is nothing in the Word of God that makes the neglect of it Damnable 2. The Confession used in the Primitive Church was made by scandalous Sinners publickly in the Congregation and therefore is not the same with that practis'd in the Church of Rome which commands the Confessing all mortal Sins with their Circumstances into the ear of a Priest at set times and before the receiving of the Sacrament 3. Since it is not of Divine but Ecclesiastical Institution it cannot be absolutely necessary to Salvation 4. It cannot be a Sacrament as they make it in the Chuch of Rome because it wants Christ's Institution 5. This Confession to a Priest as it is managed in the Church of Rome is no Check but rather an Encouragement to Sin Quest. 16. UUhy do not you believe that the Church of Rome is the only Catholick Church and the Mistriss of all other Churches Answ. I can never believe that the Church of Rome is the only Catholick Church 1. Because there are vast multitudes of Christians in the World which are not in actual Communion with the Church of Rome and yet are Members of the Catholick or which is the same of Christ's universal Church dispersed all the World over 2. To say That the Church of Rome is the Catholick Church is to say That a part is the whole or that a House is a whole City or that one Member is the whole Body 3. The Primitive Christians did not take the Church of Rome for the only Catholick Church 4. God hath no where in Scripture declared so much 5. To say the Church of Rome is the only Catholick Church is a most uncharitable Doctrine and to Damn the greater part of the Christian World 6. All Churches that do hold the ancient Faith contain'd in the three Creeds are Members of the Catholick Church 7. The Church of Rome is so far from being the only Catholick Church that her strange Doctrines make her at the best but a very unsound Member of the Catholick Church I do not believe That the Church of Rome is the Mistress of all other Churches in the World 1. Because there is no such Authority given her in the word of God 2. The Superiority she Claims is nothing but Usurpation 3. The Asian and African Churches heretofore rejected her Authority 4. The Eastern Churches at this day despise her Pride and pretended Authority 5. The Church of England was a free Church from the beginning and therefore justly maintains her Freedom and how should that Church be Mistress of all other Churches that takes Liberty to change Christ's Institutions and Commands and contradicts the Word of God Quest. 17. Doth the Church of Rome differ from the Church of England in any other Points Answ. Yes for she holds 1. That Extreme Unction is a Sacrament necessary to Salvation 2. That it is unlawful for Priests to Marry 3. That she is infallible 4. That the Scripture is not to be read in a vulgar Language by the common People 5. That the Books call'd Apocrypha are Canonical Scripture 6. That the Church of England had no Power to Reform her self All which we deny as contrary to Scripture and Reason Quest. 18. Why do not you believe that Extreme Unction is a Sacrament necessary to Salvation Ans. 1. Because that Unction or anointing sick Persons Jam. 5. 14 15. was a miraculous Gift and therefore not necessary to be continued 2. Christ did never institute this miraculous Unction as a Sacrament 3. The Unction they use in the Church of Rome hath no miraculous effects 4. The Apostles an̄ointed sick Persons that they might recover In the Church of Rome they anoint dying Persons who are past Recovery 5. In that place of St. James the saving of the sick Person is ascribed to the Prayer of Faith not to the anointing 6. The Sacrament of the Lords Supper is sufficient to comfort the dying Man Quest. 19. Why do you look upon their forbidding Priests to marry as unlawful Answ. 1. Because St. Paul permits a Bishop and indeed all Clergy-men to marry 1 Tim. 3. 2. 8. 11. Tit. 1. 6. 2. The same Apostle saith to all Men in general It is better to marry than to burn 1 Cor. 7. 9. 3. The same Apostle calls forbidding to marry a Doctrine of Devils 1 Tim. 4. 1. 3. 4. St. Peter himself an Apostle and a Priest was a married Man 5. Several of the Bishops in the Primitive Church were married Men such as Spiridion Chaereman Phileas Gregory Nyssen Gregory Nazianzen both Father and Son Hilary and others 6. It was Pope Hildebrand or Gregory VII the same that first presumed to depose Soveraign Princes that made the Clergy renounce their Wives contrary to Scripture a Man guilty of the greatest Crimes imaginable Quest. 20. Why do not you believe the Church of Rome infallible Answ. 1. Because it is only a Pretence founded neither in Scripture nor Antiquity 2. It is a Church that hath err'd both in Doctrine and the Worship of God most notoriously 3. God hath no where promis'd to make any one Church infallible 4. Themselves are not agreed where this Infallibility lies whether in the Pope or in a general Council or in the diffusive body of Christians 5. The Word of God is the only infallible Rule to walk by 6. There is no need of a visible infallible Judge for deciding of Controversies For 1st Controversies may be decided without such a Judge as they were in the Primitive Church the Bishops meeting in Council and arguing against Hereticks from the Word of God 2d A meek humble peaceable and charitable Temper would decide Controversies better than all the pretended infallible Judges in the World 3d. We do not find that when there were infallible Judges here on Earth such as Christ and his Apostles that all Controversies did cease Notwithstanding their presence there were Schisms and Heresies even among the Christians 1 Cor. 11. 19.
have a mind to keep up a Faction I know what Language we should meet withal But will you boast say you of having derived your Orders from the Church of Rome when you believe the Church of Rome to be an idolatrous Church Madam it is not the Office of a Bishop in your Church we find fault withal but the Abuses of it A Church that 's guilty of very great corruption both in Doctrine and Manners may have something that 's good and allowable and he that retains that is not therefore guilty of her corruption nor espouses her Errors Your Idolatry is one thing and your Orders are another The Jews did take many good things from the Heathens and the Christians many commendable things from the Jews but that neither made the Jews approve of the Heathenish Worship nor the Christians allow of the Jewish Errors We are not so disingenious as to make the breach between you and us wider than needs So far as you go with Scripture and true Antiquity we hold with you where you contradict both we cannot with a safe Conscience bear you company He that sees a Pearl lye among a great deal of Trash if he take the Pearl is not therefore obliged to take the Rubbish too and if we have derived our Orders from you that infers no necessity that we must therefore consent to your Notorious Deprivations of the antient Simplicity of the Gospel The Christians heretofore that approved of the Baptism of the Donatists did not therefore presently acknowledge the Truth of their Opinions and he that should take a good custom from the Turks cannot be therefore said to approve of all things that are in the Alcoran Madam There is nothing more easie than to cavil at the most prudent Action in the World especially where People take a slight survey of things and do not with Seriousness and Deliberation weigh the Circumstances of the Fact and do not examine the inside as well as the outside and I must confess upon the best Examination of your Actions and Proceedings in this Revolt to the Church of Rome you never took the right way to be satisfied for instead of pondering the Arguments and Motives of our Departure from the Church of Rome and of the Reasons we alledge for our Church and Doctrine you made it your chief Imployment to read their Books and believed what they said to be Oracles for no other Reason but because they talked with greater Arrogance and Confidence If you say that you could not judge of Arguments having never been bred a Scholar I would but ask you how you durst change your Religion then Did you change it without reason and without ground and if you are not able to weigh the strength of Arguments how can you be sure that you are in the true Church at this time It is not talk but Arguments that must demonstrate the Truth of a Religion and if you have not sufficiently weighed the Arguments of both sides it is a thousand to one you may still be in the wrong way and you know not but you may be as much out now as you were formerly Madam so great a thing as the change of your Religion upon which no less than Eternity depends might justly have challenged some years study before you had resolved upon it To do a thing of this nature upon so slight a Survey consider whether it doth not argue Rashness and Weakness rather than Piety and Devotion To leave a Religion you have been bred and born in a Religion founded upon the Word of God and which you had liberty to examine by the Scripture upon reading a Popish Book or two without diving to the bottom of the several Controversies without reflecting on the Importance of the Points in question without studying a considerable time which Religion comes nearest to Scripture and which goes farthest off is such an Argument of Impatience that you only seem to have yielded to a dangerous Temptation of the Devil If the Controversies between the Church of Rome and us are so intricate as you say and above your capacity to dive into them you have then run over to that Church in the dark and have as little reason to be satisfied with your Proceedings as you believe you have with our way of Worship You plead that you have been sitting up whole Nights and weeping and praying that God would discover to you which is the true way to Salvation and from that time forward you found Inclinations to go over to that Church and is this a sufficient Argument to justifie your Forwardness When you had already begun to doubt whether our Church were a true Church or no because you found not that Satisfaction in it your sickly Desires wanted it was then an easie matter to give ear to confident People that magisterially and peremptorily assured you that you would find Satisfaction in their Church and being fed with this hope your Inclinations to that Church grew stronger every day as our Mother Eve the hopes of being like God suggested to her by the Serpent did egg and spur her on to eat of the fatal Tree We do not forbid People to pray to God to lead or direct them into the right way though sometimes it may be a perfect tempting of God when People are in the right way to desire God to discover to them by a sign of their own choice whether they are in it or no. But them if we pray to God to direct us we must not neglect the means God hath appointed in order to our Satisfaction but must compare Scripture with Scripture and Books with Books and Arguments with Arguments and search which Religion agrees most with the Doctrines and Practices of Christ and his Apostles and as the Noble Berrheans did examine all the Doctrines obtruded to our Belief by the Scripture and doing thus and continuing this search and these Prayers together no doubt but God in his own good time will answer us and direct us But to pray to God to direct us and not to use the means in the use of which he hath promised to direct us we do in a manner mock him or desire him to work a Miracle for us or to vouchsafe us some extraordinary Revelation when we have Moses and the Prophets and may hear them And I am confident had you joyned this way with your Prayer examined the Doctrines of the Church of Rome and compared them with the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ seen whether there be any thing like it in the Bible and searched whether Christ and his Apostles ever taught such Doctrines and done all this not slightly but seriously and solidly it 's impossible you could ever have turned Papist for if our Gospel be true that Religion can never be true for there is nothing in the World can run more counter to the Gospel than the Doctrines of that Church wherein we differ from them and they had need put the