decreuit à temporibus Apostolorum vsque ad praesens vel vsque in praesens per successiones Patrum id ipsum sapieÌ„tium atque docentium ei inquam credi debet sub poena perfidiae tom 1. doctrina 2. certifie â—hich bookes are scripture and that â—â—e can commend none in this naâ—â—re but such as were written in â—â—e Apostles e Ipsis patriincumbebat qui tunc praesidebaÌ„t Ecclesijs ducere scripturaruÌ„ volumina ad perfectum tunc enim fuit temporis plenitudo non dubium libri non reciperentur in authoritateÌ„ sacri canonis nisi qui de illis teÌ„poribus Apostolicis agereÌ„t tunc temporis essent quia aliter non facerent de diuinis rebus fidem summam Idem li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà daies but this is â—t to denie the present Church or Councell power to propose againe the same There were notwithstanding the Apostles approbation of diuers parts of the new testameÌ„t which approbation came not at least so manifestlie to the notice of all some who doubted of f Vide Disp pa. 431 or denied them as for example the Apocalyps and S. Iudes Epistle and the later oâ— S. Peter yet you your selues doe and Waldensis did receaue them aâ— the hands of the Church by thaâ— part which then liued when he did Neither doth Canus saie that hâ— denied a Councell power to propose bookes in the manner wee noâ— speake of but he saies onelie thaâ— he seemes to be of those who denie thâ— power to define which booke is Canonicall to belonge chieflie to a generâ— Councell It is one thing to saie thâ— a Councell can doe it another tâ— saie the power belongs chieflie 〈◊〉 the Councell as you will perceaâ— by the declaration of the next placâ— obiected Waldensis as Canus worâ— import seemed to denie not the foâ—mer but the later neither doth 〈◊〉 saie that he denied it but that 〈◊〉 did seeme to doe so some things thâ— â—hilosophers vse to saie do seeme 〈◊〉 be and are not and some thing â—emes to one otherwise many tiâ—es then to an other Had it been so â—deed I make no question but that â—ou who haue been diligent in your â—inde to seeke in him what might â—e brought against vs would not â—aue omitted to relate the words When you seeke for them next â—ou will finde in him first as I said â—efore that in his exclusiue he speaâ—es of bookes not written in the Aâ—ostles time or before to which purâ—ose he g Waldens li. 2. fid doc c. 20. brings the place of scriâ—ture Dominus narrabit in scripturis â—opulorum principum horum qui â—uerunt in ea with S. Ieroms Comment on it wherein are these words vt exceptis Apostolis quodcunque aliud â—osteà dicitur abscindatur non habeat â—osteà authoritatem And to the same â—enour he himselfe a litle after let vs â—ote the differences of Scripture because the scripture or writing onlie of â—he Princes that is of the Apostles hath after our lord the crowne of authoritie I meane of canonicall authoritie for the saying of the Saincts which followed them haue their authoritie bâ— not canonicall Secondlie whereas 〈◊〉 might be obiected that the Churcâ— in a generall Councell might wriâ— a booke and put it into the canon 〈◊〉 scripture to be among other bookâ— of holie writt since S. Gregorie thâ— great doth professe to honour theâ— as the Gospels in those words h S. Greg. mag li. 1. Regesti epist 24. citatur in Decret d. 15 Quintum quoque Concilium pariter venerot Ibidem Sicut Sancti Euangelij quatuor libros 〈◊〉 quatuor concilia suscipere veneraâ—me fateor Waldensis there answere to this argument and expounds thâ— words of S. Gregorie Thirdlie because it might againe be obiecteâ— out of the decrees whence the former obiection was taken that i Gelasius c. Sancta Romana d. 15. Nec obstat Pelagiana epistola de librâ—s recipiendis non recipâ—eÌ„dâ—s vbi scripturaruÌ„ libros in authoritate pleâ—â—râ—a quomodo sint habendi denunciat noÌ„ ad authoritatem per seipsum in instaurat walden vbi supra Pelagius the Pope seemes to determine what bookes are to be receaued into the canon and what not he answers with a distinction which doth explaine his minde and dotâ— suffice to stopp your mouth wheâ— occasion require Scripturarum libâ— saith he in authoritate plenaria quâ— modo sunt habendi denunciat non 〈◊〉 authoritatem per scipsum instaurâ— That is in briefe he doth not giue but declare their sacred and diuinâ— â—thoritie And the same the Church 〈◊〉 all times might and may doe â—hensoeuer there shall be cause â—hey were by the holy Ghost inâ—red and written by the Apostles â—d Princes of the Church qui fueâ—t in ea and were approued by them 〈◊〉 but it hath beene since necessaâ— to declare some of them to giue â—timonie that they be diuine and â—s testimonie the Church still can â—e Neither is our Sauiour offenâ—d with her testimonie giuen to 〈◊〉 word who was pleased that she â—ould giue testimonie of himâ—fe Of which matter this author â—th much in the former Chapters â—eciallie the eighteenth Fourthlie 〈◊〉 doth esteeme the iudgment of 〈◊〉 Pope and of a perfect Councell â—e infallible as you will heare beâ—e wee leaue him and therefore â—ch more is he to be esteemed to â—eld this honour to the whole wheâ— they be All which being conâ—ered that which you did vrge out 〈◊〉 Canus so appeares that it is but a â—ere videtur without an est vnâ— it HAec est sola machinae Christiana quae cunctas haereses mel aboleuit ipsa sc professio concors sanctorum Patrâ— secundum suorum temporum interualla reddentium testiâ—nium Christi verbis consuetudini primitiue Baro p. 3â— ex wald to 3. de Sacramentalibus doct 3. 3. THirdlie it is inferred that 〈◊〉 takes infallibilitie froÌ„ Couâ—cells and from the present Churcâ— because he saith that the vnanimâ— profession of the holie Fathers giuâ— testimonie according to the distanceâ— their times to the * Latiùs patet verbum quà m scriptura words of Christ 〈◊〉 the primitiue custome is the oâ—â— Christian engine which hath once â—â—lished all Heresies Wherevnto I aâ—swere first that he speakes withâ— exclusion of the Church presentâ— each heresie for it is well knowâ— that the Church which did aboâ—â— Arianisme and Nestorianisme 〈◊〉 the rest of the heresies before 〈◊〉 times was that Church whâ— knewe of them and that she diâ— by her Pastors and for the most pâ— in Councells though not without 〈◊〉 censent of that part of the Chuâ—â—â— and those her Pastors which liâ—â— in the precedent ages which o◠〈◊〉 or agreeable profession was â—nd partlie by their bookes as in 〈◊〉 acts of the Councells appeares â—his daie and partlie by the tradiâ— of the particular Churches wheâ— they had liued and died Which â—â—nner the Church doth still obserâ— in condemning heresies as they
potest The Church because it relyeth not on reason but on the diuine authoritie prouidence and assistance and hath it infalliblie promised vnto her can in no sort or manner nullo modo determine besides the truth or erroneouslie or against God Whence it followes as before that if the Church doth applie her testimonie vnto any booke auouching and publikelie declaring it to be scripture or to any proposiâ—ion determining it to be a point of â—aith and proposing it vnto the world for such there can be accorâ—ing to this author no further queâ—tion made of it since the diuine â—rouidence doth so guide her that â—n such definitions she in no sort â—an iudge erroneouslie or determine â—esides the truth â— Neither is this integritie in deâ—â—nition violated or our sauiours promise of assistance broken if not in matter of diuine beleefe such as â—or the good of his Church God â—ath reuealed but in i Longè aliter se habent quaestiones istae quas esse praeâ—er fidem arbitratur Celestius quà m sunt illae in quibus â—lua fide qua Christiani sumus aut ignoratur quid verum 〈◊〉 sententia definitiua suspenditur aut aliter quam est â—umana infirma suspicione conijcitur Velâ—â—â— cum quaeâ—â—tur qualis vel vbi sit Paradâ—sus cum tamen esse illum â—aradisum fides Christiana non dubitet Vel cum quaeriâ—r vbi nunc sit Elias c. vel cùm quaeritur vtrum in corâ—ore vel extra corpus in terâ—ium caelum sit raptus Apoâ—olus c. vel quot sunt Caeli c. vel vtrum elementa â—undi huius conspicabilis quatuor an plura sint c. vbi â—otuit Methusalem viuere c. Quis non sentiat in his atâ—e huiusmodi varijs innumerabilibus quaestionibus sine ad â—bscurissima opera Dei siue ad Scripturarum abditissiâ—as latebras pertinentibus quas certo aliquo generâ— complecti ac definire difficile est multa ignorari salua Christiana fide alicubi errari sine aliquo haeretici dogmatis crimine S. Aug. li. 2. cont Pelag. Celest. c. 23. vide Canum li. 5. c. 5. qq 3. 4. 5. other questions which it hath not pleased him by reuelation to discouer as where is Elias where Paradice how many heauens c. not in definition and attestation but in some particular * It is one thing to argue out of reuealed principles and another thing to argue out of others Of this later kind of deduction I speake heere deduction and coniecture she doth inferre amisse Not euerie consequence orillation not euerie thing syllogisticallie inferd out of premises in matter of that nature hath infallibilitie according to this Author but the definitions and decrees all haue it If you knowe not yet the difference betwixt the one and the other you may reade him or Canus or looke vpon the Acts of the Councells where you may with litle studie discerne it If it be replied that in his fourth Controuersie he seemes to limit and contract the obiect of assistance to points onlie fundamentall excluding all other I answer that euen k Docendi infallibilitas in causa fidei Ecclesiae data taÌ„tummodo in illis fidei dogmatibus infallibiliter definiendis fideli populo ceâ—ta veritate tradeÌ„dis locum habet quae vel in coÌ„trouersiam vocantur vel alioqui ad publicaÌ„ Ecclesiae fidem necessariò pertinent Staplet fid doc li. 8. c. 15. Quando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertineÌ„t c. vel non ad publicum aliquod commune dogma explicandum quod vel omnes fideles explicitè crederè debent vel in publico religionis vsu versatur vel saltem maiores explicitè credere tenentur populus autem implicitè in maiorum fide sed ad priuatam alicuius c. Ibidem there he doth extend it to all points of faith which either are called into controuersie at any time wherein the Church is or otherwise doe necessarilie appertaine to the publike faith of the Church In which compasse is contained all that is in the Councell of Trent defined against you or in any other oecumenicall Councell proposed to be beleeued Your masters Luther Caluin and others called into question diuers things appertaining and intrinsecallie as parts to the substance or obiect of diuine faith and publike exercise of Religion as bookes of holie scripture iustification Sacraments and the Masse And therefore if according to Stapleton the Churches infallibilitie doth reach vnâ—â— all points of faith called into question it is according to the same tenet extended vnto these which he beleeued so to pertaine to faith But in questions that are impertineÌ„t or * Such as some aboue pag. 97. litter i. in marg indifferent or that appertaine onlie to the direction of some one that is weake in iudgment and in some priuate case or to the satisfaction of some proude mans curiositie to conclude in questions that appertaine to the explicatioÌ„ of those things which are appendices additions rather then contained in or appertaining to the substance of faith if the Church should mistake it were not he thinks any preiudice to the graunt of assistance or the promised infallibilitie not if in matter of this nature she should affirme or discoursing as a Diuine which in her examination of difficulties otherwhile she doth should inferre and logicallie l Vel asserendo vel etiam concludendo Ibidem conclude amisse But to make a publike decree of that which is false and propose it openlie to be beleeued of Christians as matter of faith that she cannot being in her publike decrees 〈◊〉 definition infallible as you heard him saie before And the same he hath proued at large both by Scripture and Theologicall reasons in diuers m Doc. fi li 8. c 12. 13 Relect. cont 3. q 4 cont 4. q. 2. alibi places of his booke §. IX 1. Saint Augustine will not haue any other bookes equalled with Scripture in authoritie 2. Other witnesses or testimonies of other nature then that of Scripture and not recommended by it or by the author of it wee be not obliged to in that manner as wee are obliged to beleeue the Scripture 3. The comparison of Scripture with other writings in authoritie His forbearing to presse an Arian with the authoritie of the Councell of Nice 4. The Donatists refusing to yeild vnto the authoritie of the whole Church Catholike and consequentlie of her Councells too and admitting Scripture he doth challeng them to shew there the decision of the Controuersie which was betwixt them and him 5. He did both auouch and relie vpon the authoritie of plenarie Councells esteeming them to be in their decrees of faith infallible What mending that is which he speakes of EGo solis eis Scriptorum qui iam caâ—onici appellantur didics hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum scribendo errasse audeam credere
canonicis aliquando fuerint coÌ„parata aut possunt etiam ipsi de Scripturis sanctis proferre CoÌ„cilium vbi Apostoli iudices sederint accusatum aliquem damnauerint vel absoluerint Et tamen respondebimus eis etiam Prophetas libros praenotatis definitis commendasse temporibus quo anno cuius regis c. S. Aug. li. cont Donatist post Collat. c. 15. Requiring of the Catholikes to shewe any where out of Scripture where the daies and consuls were registred and enrolled Wherevnto S. Augustine answers that Councells are not parallelled with Scripture the one to wit the Councell may doe well in registring both daies and Consuls though the other doe not so or they may be added and not by the authoritie of the Councell though nothing be registred in the Scripture but by the direction of the holie Ghost The acts of Councells are not equalized in exactnes and extent of infallibilitie to the books written by Gods Secretaries wee giue the prerogatiue to the Scriptures and so do the words obiected out of S. Augustine which are cited in the margine In the same place whence they were taken he tels how the Catholikes did forbeare to examine why in one Councell the daie was noted and in the other not quia illi Donatistae vanas moras volebant innectere and all heretikes are of the same condition they hinder with impertinent Cauills the processe of the Catholikes argumeÌ„ts and catch at all occasions to trifle out the time For the same cause disputing in another place with an Arian he did forbeare to vrge against him the authoritie of the Councell of Nice against which the heretick tooke exceptions opposing the Ariminian Councell The examen of which two points thereby called into controuersie I meane the lawfulnes of the one and the vnlawfullnes of the other would haue taken vp the time and transferd the dispute into another question which heretikes greedilie desire when they cannot answer but S. Augustine would not permit that scope to his aduersarie and therefore hauing mentioned the two foresaid Councells and in honour of the one which had defined the thing he was disputing of said it p S. Aug li. 3. contra Max. c. 14. was there veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate firmatum established by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie and contrariwise of the other that there were multi paucorum fraude decepti many deceaued by the fraude or circumuention of a fewe whereby hereticall impietie endeuoured to weaken what the Catholike fathers in the power of truth and authoritie had established Sed nunc nec ego NicenuÌ„ nec tu debes Ariminense tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris Scripturarum authoritatibus noÌ„ quorumque proprijs sed vtrisque communibus testibus c Baro p. 337. ex Aug. hauing I saie mentioned these two Councells he forbeares to vrge his argument out of the authoritie of the Nicene Councell and makes it out of that authoritie which his aduersarie did admit thereby the sooner to conclude being so to dispute onlie about the meaning of the words he was to bring and needing not to argue for his authoritie whose words they were But now for both of vs be content with this course neither doe I the Nicene neither oughtest thou as by way of preiudice produce the Ariminian Councell neither am I held in with the authoritie of this the Ariminian nor thou of that the Nicene thou doest assume to thy selfe the libertie not to obaie it and out * Infrà in fi huius relectionis ad sextum of thy malice art not held in with that great authoritie though thou and all others ought to be since q Hoc est illud homousion quod in Concilio Nicaeno aduersus haereticos Arianos à Catholicis Patribus Veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate firmatum est quod postea in Concilio Ariminensi propter nouitatem in verbis minus quam oportuit intellectum quam tamen fides antiqua peperaâ— multis paucorum fraude deceptis haeretica impietas sub haeretico Imperatore Constantio labefactare tentauit Sed post non longum tempus libertate Catholicae fidei praeualente c. S. Aug. li 3. contra Maxim c. 14. Sed nunc nec ego c. vt supra in marg Ibidem the authoritie of truth it selfe which cannot lie doth there establish the thing which wee dispute of See what S. Athanasius hath testified of the authoritie of that Councell to conuince Heretiks Efficax ad omnem impietatem euertendam c. infrà in Addition ad Athan. PEtit Augustinus à Donatistis vt Ecclesiam suam demonstrent Non in sermonibus rumoribus Afrorum non in Concilijs Episcoporum suorum non in literis quorumlibet disputatorum non in signis prodigijs fallaâ—ibus c. sed in praescripto legis in Prophetarum praedictis in Euangelistarum praedicationibus Baro. p. 337. in eandem sententiam plura p. 338. 4. THe fourth exception out of S. Augustine is that disputing with the Donatists he vrged them to shewe by Scripture how theirs and not the Catholike or vniuersall was the true Church and would not haue the matter tryed by their Councells I answer that though the Church once knowne and her authoritie admitted that will serue to determine controuersies as you heard S. Augustine saie before yet when the Question is of the Church it selfe Whether it be a thing in the intention of our Sauiour confined to one Nation or extended ouer all and with an Aduersarie who doth admit Scripture the way to demonstrate against him vt ex tuis concessionibus c. S. Aug. li. con Cresc c. 33. the way I saie to demonstrate against him is to looke vpon the Prophecies and see the description of it there and to harken withall what our Sauiour in the Gospell hath deliuered of it The Donatists with whom S. Augustine deales admitted the canonicall bookes wherein these two things are and they being once admitted the Question might be defined out of them And of the testimonies of the Lawe and Prophets and Psalmes and of our blessed Sauiour himselfe in this controuersie of the Church S. Augustine said vnto the Donatists r S. Aug. de vnit Eccles cap. 16. haec sunt caâ—sae nostrae documenta haec fundamenta haec firmamenta the cause he speakes of was Whether the Donatists iâ— Africk or the Catholikes in all Nations were the Church whether 〈◊〉 were a thing confined vnto the limits of that contrey or extended ouer all the world according to Gods intention and the testimonies of our Sauiour and of the Law and of the Prophets and Psalmes these testimonies he saith were documents and foundations and establishments of this cause He was not to proue it out of Councells for he that denies the whole doth withall reiect the authoritie of each part or what euer is within the whole
Docete Matt. vlt. This Catholikes do know they be grounded they take the secure way The way which you take is temerarious it is the same which Heresie doth vsuallie take to spred it self And in making choise of it you shew in your self the disposition of a Sectarie The Sectarie findes an opinion auouched by two or three against the common and against the Spirit of the Church generallie yet because it likes him for that it is easier to be conceaued or more agreeable to some phantasie that he hath or better suting to the libertie which he could wish he is coÌ„tent to â—hink the authoritie of those â—â—o or three though the â—â—st contradict sufficient to â—ake is probable and then iudâ—ng of the reasons and motiâ—es which they bring as his â—â—fections incline him he thinks 〈◊〉 at last certaine So did the â—rians depending vpon the â—uthoritie first of their leaâ—ers and then deeming their â—otiue as that pater maior me 〈◊〉 to be manifestlie against the Church and for them Neither be the Leaders themselues Arch-heretickes wiâ—â—out pretence of authoritie they cite the d Fortasse aliquisinterroget An Haeretici diuinae Scripturae testimonijs vtantur Vtuntur planè vehemeÌ„ter quidem nam videas eos volate per singulaquae que sanctae legis volumina per Moysi per Regum volumina per Psalmos per Apostolos per Euangelia per Prophetas Siue enim apud suos siue alienos siue priuatim siue publice siue in sermonibus siue in libris siue in conuiuijs siue in plateis nihil vnquam paenè de suo proferuÌ„t quod non etiam Scripturae verbâ—s adumbrare conentur Vinc. lirin c. 35. Si quis interroget queÌ„piam Haereâ—â—corum sibi talia persuadentem vnde probas vnde doces quod Ecclesiae Catholicae Vniuersalem antiquam fidem dimittere debeam Statim ille mille testimonia mille exempla mille authoritates parat de lege de psalmis de apostolis de prophetis quibus nouo malo more interpretatis ex arce Catholica in Haereseôs barathrum infoelix anima praecipitetur Idem c. 37. vbi ostendit eos à diabolo moduÌ„ istum didicisse Scriptum est enim Scriptures â—â—d gleane obscure speaches â—t of auncient good writers which in shewe do make for them When a man once takes this â—ay he squares out his Religion to himself or rather he runnes out of all from one thing to another from more to fewer points or articles from that he calls probable to lesse and yet lesse and lesse probable till at last is he findes himself most certainlie in Hell Faith is a firme assent but his if well examined is not so It is not diuine faith he doth but flatter himself and deceaue others with a shadow If two or three tell him thatâ— Councell may mistake though the rest auouch the contrarie he is content to think it may and heereupon presentlie doubts of all that is so defined Then further proceeding iâ— the same sillie motiue if thâ— whole Church auouch a thing yet so as some two or three at some time or other held thâ— contrarie he will not beleeâ—â— the Church neither No nor the Apostles if any tell him they might erre A Rainolds a Whittakers authoritie makes the contrarie to him probable and by that time he hath read their bookes he thinkes himself certaine of it But in the meane while where is the faith of such a man wherevnto doth he giue a firme assent To the Scriptures No their authoritie who denied them makes him doubt To the Creed nor so the authoritie of two or three serues his turne and there is nothing in the Creede that more then two or three haue not refused Arianisme Nestorianisme Sabellianisme Eutichianisme Pelagianisme Lutheranisme Swinglianisme all great Heresies haue had multitudes of abbetâ—ors whereas two or three serue his turne Where then is his religion in his mouth peraduenture but in his heart well examined there is none Others there be not so readie to relie indifferentlie vpon the Authoritie of any whatsoeuer esteemed learned but determined extreamelie vnto one The Puritan for example to Iohn Caluin whom he prefers before the rest all together Wherein he shewes himself as extrauagantlie peccant against the light of nature as the former AmoÌ„gst the many principes or Axiomes which reason dictates to the Prudent this is one that in matters of beleefe the greatest Authoritie must sway our vnderstanding He will not denie that this is true he might as well denie the sunne shines at middaie but his manner of proceeding doth inuolue a deniall of it The authoritie of a Councell entirelie oecumenicall is greater then the Authoritie of one single man The greatest â—chollers haue euer stooped to 〈◊〉 yet the Puritan rather beleeues Caluin then such a Councell Yea rather then all the knowne Churches in the world though e Though some now disseÌ„t as you for example yet these points haue had the consent of all Christian Churches as many as beleeued that our B. Sauiour had true flesh and blood consenting As in the matter of the Masse vnbloodie Sacrifice reall Presence And what way is there think you to deale with such a man or to what end is it to dispute with him If you cite Scripture he will rather take the comment of his Master Iohn then the definition and tradition howeuer auncient of the whole Church deliuering the sence of it It is so in the point of the Reall presence And in admitting the Bookes of Scripture too he will be his owne chooser and will iudge himself which is good and sound and which ought to be discarded Vide disput de Eccles pag. 304. But who shall decide the coÌ„trouersie betwixt the Church and him touching the meaning of that Scripture which he pleaseth to let passe for currant The Spirit no doubt But in whom in the Church or the vniuersitie of beleeuers before his time Not so They might erre he thinkes and so might all the Councells of Bishops that euer were and all the Pastors of the world though consenting they might all he thinks be deceaued Where then speakes the Iudge he meanes to stand to when the Controuersie is about the sence of Scripture or about the sinceritie of the letter in whom speakes the Spirit which he will permit to be his Master In Master Iohn So he beleeues rather theÌ„ he will beleeue that he speaketh in the Church Now tell me is not this a strange manner of proceeding in matters appertaining to our eternall estate to challeng to ones self or his Master Iohn authoritie to teach and interprete Scripture and to denie it to the whole Senate of Catholike Bishops and Pastors whom God hath giuen to teach diuine doctrine and to keepe the Church from wauering in such matters and not onlie to them Ephes 4 in what age soeuer but absolutelie to the Church without exempting the first Disciples and Apostles These for
to beleeue that a part is greater theÌ„ the whole The Authoritie of m England also before Caluin was borne beleeued the Sacrifice of the masse and offered it for the quick and the deade See the Prudentiall Ballance all NatioÌ„s Christian moues me more then the Authoritie of one n Other Protestants admit not your Confession onlie now deuided and apart Neither can I be perswaded that corpus doth signifie a signe or figure onlie or that bread properlie was crucified for my sinnes I am not wiser then heeretofore men haue beene not wiser then the Church I reuerence her decrees and am readie to be directed by her Whether those you pretend vnto were so too will appeare in the discussion of the Controuersie wee now deale â—n which doth concerne the generall Councells wherein she declares herself Of such Councels your fellowes haue questioned many things as first who hath power to call them secondlie what persoÌ„s are to be in them thirdlie who is to preside Fourthlie whether they be infallible in their decrees fiftlie which be such Councels The Controuersie wee are to speake of is none of these but onlie what learned men Catholikes haue deliuered taught about the infallibitie of a CouÌ„cell supposing it be intirelie oecumenicall which supposition being premised The four first your selues honour with the title of oecumenicall and it is confessedlie a possible supposition the Question is this Whether any Deuines of the Catholike communion haue openlie and to the knowledge of those to whom it appertained to looke vnto the Church auouched and maintained of Councels entirelie â—ecumenicall such as were generall â—nd approued that in decrees of Faith they might mistake and â—rre Wee dispute not you and 〈◊〉 now whether this or that Councell be such a Councell That is another matter Nor whether such a Councell supâ—ose it be and define be infalâ—ble But what men Cathoâ—ike Deuines haue auerred â—ouching the priuiledge of a Councell generall entire and â—pproued The termes of the Question â—e remarkable Councels not whatsoeuer but generall and â—pproued or entirelie oecumeâ—icall Deuines of the Catholike â—ommunion not Hereticks Wee know that Hereticks reâ—use entire approued Councels Matters of Faith not matters â—f Fact Auouched openlie the knowledge of the cause goes before the sentence of the iudge Your pretence is that some Deuines haue auouched their fallibilitie in matter and manner aboue specified in the Quaere Which if it were true that I note this by the way the tenet of their Infallibilitie would notwithstanding continue firme The Church doth not at all times punish what euer she doth abhorre and negligence of discipline in a Superiour is a distinct thing from the lawes or principles of a communitie Much lesse could it be ouerturned by their doubtfull speaches if any could be found and least of all by obscure passages Dark and hard speaches may be found in o Vide S. Hieron Apolog. adu Ruf. li. 2. Fieri potest vt vel certè antequam in Alexandria quasi daemonium meridianum Arius nasceretur innocenter quaedam minus cautè loqunâ—i sunt quae non possint peruersarum hominum calumniam declinare vide S. Aug. de Praedest Sanct. c. 14. Auncient Writers that seeme to make againsâ— such tenets of Religion as you call fundamentall and some Fathers haue doubted of some â—aue denied p Euseb Hist Eccles li. 3. c. 19. Origenes apud eundem li. 6. c. 19. S. Hieron de Script Eccles in Ep. ad Dard. Bilson Suru p. 664. See the Disp pag. 431. bookes of Scriâ—ture which all now beleeue â—o be Canonicall wherefore if 〈◊〉 this matter of Councels-auâ—â—oritie the like should haue â—appened the tenet of Assistanâ—e giuen to them in their deâ—rees of faith being grounded 〈◊〉 Scripture and hauing for it 〈◊〉 more euident perpetuall tradiâ—â—on then you can shew for diâ—ers parts of Scripture which â—ou do beleeue to be diuine â—ere still euen by you in like â—anner to be admitted and â—aintained vnles you think it â—wfull to reiect those Books alâ—â— because once doubted of or â—enied and neuer to beleeue â—at which might with a preâ—nce of authoritie be oppoâ—â—d or contradicted Thus I could answer and â—are the labour to talke further of the matter Vide S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donat. c. 5. but becausâ— you wrong some that be leaâ—ned worthie Authors and some Fathers too least you finâ— adherents that will beleeuâ— you to the preiudice of theâ—selues and others vpon yoâ— bare word when they sâ—â— none contradict and confuâ— that you boast of I will suruâ—â— the citations Our dispute in this matteâ— is to be of Catholikes it is as bâ—fore was noted impertineâ—â— to talke of others and of sucâ— as in plaine termes haue auouchâ— and maintained what you prâ—tend they did Wee know thâ— some haue beene mistaken 〈◊〉 great matters and yet contâ—nued in the Church either bâ—cause the thing was not suffâ—cientlie brought to light 〈◊〉 matters appertaining to diuinâ— faith be not at all times equaâ—lie proposed or because they were readie to submit themselues As in the QuestioÌ„s of the Canon of Scripture of Baptisme giuen by Hereticks c. and conforme their iudgment as soone as the Church declared her self Wee know â—oo that diuers haue beene tempted in their faith and of these some haue falne into Heresie or Atheisme wherof we haue examples in Luthers preach and before in all ages â—uen the primitiue Others haâ—e discouered their temptaâ—ions with all the motions of â—heir vnderstanding to and â—ro concealing onlie the finall â—esolution or euent Of which â—nfirmitie some and not wiâ—hout scandall haue exhibited â—hemselues by their writings â—ublicke spectacles to the â—orld With those you and 〈◊〉 need not meddle being to â—peake of such onlie if any can â—e found as haue openlie denied the infallibilitie aboue specified and yet enioyed the communion of the Church notwithstanding such a knowne deniall She doth not thrust out of her communion one who doth onlie propose his doubtes to be resolued nor yet if by way of disputation he venters to far but without auouching especiallie when this is donne with submission to her iudgment or if he so conceale his mind or vtter himself so that nothing can be directlie proued against him Secret and concealed thoughts she cannot look into Euerie one is to be presumed good vnles the contrarie may be proued As many as haue exteriorlie communicated with the Church are lawfullie presumed to haue receaued her tenets vnles it be made appeare otherwise Though it be true that some who liue amongst vs oâ—herwhile be not of vs. Some â—o beare themselues for Caâ—holikes who be in their hearâ—es Atheistes or Heretikes There be no doubt Ipse Satanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis Non est ergo magnum si ministri eius transfigurentur velut ministri iustitia 2. Corint 11. Nonne ego vos duodecim elegi ex vobis vnus diabolus est Ioan. 6.
admitted in some others â—t in a scholler that pretends to haâ— reade the Question in him and â—â—th vrge his authoritie against the â—hurch of God such a pretence â—th no place §. III. Waldensis yeilding to the Scripture a preminence in Authoritie will haue vs depend â—on the Church for the sence of it 2. She is â—o to declare which bookes are Canonicall â—ripture A speach of Canus touching Walâ—sis his Opinion examined 3. When he saith 〈◊〉 Fathers testimonie hath abolished all Heâ—â—es he doth not exclude the Authoritie of 〈◊〉 Church symbolicall or representatiue 4 â—e symbolicall Church he saith against Wiâ—ef is not the Predestinated people only but 〈◊〉 Vniuersitie of right beleeuers spred ouer the whole world 5. He held that the Church of Rome cannot faile 6. and that perfect oecumenicall Councels be infallible in their decree HAecipsa fides authoritas Ecclesiae quantum homiâ—â— supergreditur rationem tantùm fateor diuina legis â—â—thoritati succumbit Baro p. 365. ex Waldensi Media est 〈◊〉 inter supremam authoritatem Scripturae infimam ratioâ— fides Ecclesiae Scripturas venerabiliter attollens exhibeus rationem vagam hominis ad hanc geminam authoritaâ— alligans zona Pauli Idem ex eodem 1. WALDENSIS saith the authoâ—â—tie of the Church is inferiour the authoritie of Scripture What this will you inferre that wee thâ—refore neede not obaie the decrâ—â— of Councells or that the Châ—â—ches authoritie is fallible Infallibâ—â—tie may be in others besides Scâ—â—pture The Apostles were not Scâ—â—pture yet were they infallible â—nesses of the trueth The Churcâ— the pillar and ground of trueth thoâ— the Church be not Scripture 1. Timoth. 3. Thâ— may be diuers Authorities infallâ— and one of them Subordinate to 〈◊〉 other And so are these two accâ—â—ding to this Author as you may â—by the places represented in the a Quamuis fides vniuersalis Ecclesiae inuenitur per Scripturas expressa ficut est paenè tota non tamen est eiâ—n authoritate par sed subijcitur Waldensis de principijs fidei Doctr tomo 1. li. 2. c. 21. Fides vt est Ecclesiae Catholicae in hoc accedit fidei Scripturarum quod non licet de ipsa dubitare eo quod testimoniuÌ„ Ecclesiae Catholicae est obiectuÌ„ fidei Christianae legis latio scripturae canonicae Subijcitur tamen ipsi sicut testis iudici testimonium veritati sicut praeconâ—zatio definitioni sicut praeco regi Ibâ—dem Quod aliquis pater vnus singulariter per se sensit potes aliquo saltem colore tuo decredere quod autem poenè omnes quasi vnus homo loquuntur fidei robur habet quia vnitas ipsa in Ecclesia hoc loquitur omnium gentium linguis Idem c. 25. margine One onely I will putt here because it serues also for that which followes In the 18. Chapter of his 2. Booke Doct. Fid. he declares how the sinceritie of the Churches testimonie in matters of faith is beleeued in the Creed there where we professe to beleeue the holie Catholike Church and amongst other things to this purpose hath these words Before the written Gospell this in the heart of the Church was the Gospell which Iesus Christ wrote and which the Apostles wrote in the harts of men and to whose testimonie euerie one must stand in the controuersies whether the text of the written Gospell be vnderstood or taken by the faithfull or subuerted by the Heretick whereof the Apostle speaks to the Corinthians saying â—ow are our Epistle written in your hearts which is knowne and read of all men declared that you are the Epistle of Christ manifested by vs and written not with inke but by the spicit of the liuing God not in tables of stone but in fleshlie tables of the heart And a litle after Though the law of nature which men beare written in their hearts be most certaine yet much more hath the law of Christ certissimum interpretamentum a most certaine interpretation in the hearts of the faithfull succeeding one another from the beginning of the rising Church and the Apostles times foreuer according to that of the Prophet this is the testament which I will make to them giuing my lawes in their hearts and in their sense or minde I will write them I must not omitt to putt you further in minde that in the place by you cited he saith b Haec ipsa fides Ecclesiae eius authoritas quantum hominum supergreditur rationem tantum fateor diuinâ— legis authoritati succumbit sed tamen quaâ— minoris esse authoritatis fidelibus si eam Ecclesia non praeferret Waâ—d to 3. de Sacramentalibus tit 7. c. 63. Si verum sem per sit testimonium Ecclesiae semper credenda est si quandoqâ—â— fallere consueta in omnibus est suspecta Ibidem the diuine law were vnto the faithfull * Non licet de ipsa dubitare c. vide in Addit of lesse authoritie if the Church did not preferre it And c Hoc est quod superius dixi quantumlibet eminent Scriptura diuina sanctioni Ecclesiae ipsa tamen taxabeâ— se sum eius quo aliter sentire non possis cuius interpraetationi resistere capitalis est culpa dicit Origenes Ibidâ—â— howmuch soeuer the diuinâ— scripture is higher then the decree of â—he Church ipsa tamen sensum eius â—axabit she notwithstanding shall deâ—ne the sense wherein thou maiest not â—old otherwise and whose interpretaâ—â—on to resist is as Origen speakes a â—apitall offence So he AD Concilium vniuersale praecipué pertinet definire qui liber sit canonicus Quam quidem propositionem aequo aniâ—o paterer ab haereticis non admitti sed illud tamen doleo veheâ—enter quod eam nonnulli fideles inficiantur in quibus Thoâ—as Waldensis esse videtur li. 2. doc fid c. 19. Baro. p. 365. ex â—no Addit Baro c. 20. 21. SEcondlie it is obiected that he denies to the Church now â—â—esent power to determine which â—â—e bookes of scripture And for this â—â—e cited three Chapters of his 2. â—â—oke Doct. Fid. the 19. 20. and 21. â—ut there I finde it not He doth inâ—ed hold that the Catholick Churh â—â—d no other is able to d Et hoc est secundum dictuÌ„ gloriosum de Ecclesia quod sc ipsa sola est cuius testimoniuÌ„ est tantae authoritatis praeconij vt ipsos libros diuinarum scripturaruÌ„ taxare decoruÌ„ authoribus certificare possit fideles nec fas erit tanto testimonio contraire wald li. 2. doct fid c. 20. Incertum ergo esse non potest cos esse libros canonicos habere pondus authoritatissuae quibus Ecclesia declarata per omnes gentes ab Apostolis propagata testimoniuÌ„ certum reddit Ibidem Dico quod Ecclesia eam doctrinam docet esse credeÌ„dam sub poena contumaciae Ea dico quae praesens est quae iudicia directa
â—se ioyning her present Authoriâ— to that of the precedent ages â—â—ose minde she doth enquire in â—â—e manner that so by consent of 〈◊〉 whole still errours be condemâ—d Neither is it necessarie to finde â—at which she doth at anie time â—opose vniuersallie professed by all â—fore in plaine termes and expliciâ— or to finde it in all bookes of thoâ— times the Church informer ages â—d not so wee take the same course â—at she then did Secondlie you must â—tend vnto the words cunctas aboleâ—e hath abolished all No one Counâ—ll no one part as that which liued 〈◊〉 the second age or that which liâ—ed in the third or fourth hath aboâ—hed and destroyed them all but â—â—e whole hath done it Thirdlie that â—la is not * If sola be taken as you would haue it what will become of your triall by scripture onlie captiouslie to be stood vpon least you wrong the same Aâ—thor who neuer excluded the Symbolicall Church for whose testimonâ— k so 3. doc 3. tomo 1. li. 2. ca. 18.19.20 c. he pleades so earnestlie both iâ— the same place and in his seconâ— booke Doct. Fid. in many chapterâ— prouing it it's testimonie I meane to be contained in the Creede yâ—â— the Fathers of whose consent 〈◊〉 speakes in the place by you heeâ— vrged be not the symbolicaâ—â— Church properlie but onlie a parâ— of it And in like manner wheâ— speaking of the Church symbolical he saith it is she onlie whose testimonie is of so great l To. 1. li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà ad lit d. authoritie thaâ— she can certifie who are authors oâ— the bookes of scripture that soâ— doth not exclude another authoritie that is within for example thâ— vnanimous consent of Fathers whereof he speakes heere in the words obiected their authoritie were sufficient to certifie the same as you may see by him To. 1. Doct. 3. and li. 2. eiusdem to c. 26. and m Apudomnes Catholicos valet ligat vna sententia concors patruÌ„ maximè autem temporis longaeuâ— patrum successione sirmata ita vt locuÌ„ fidei habeat De quacre â—enda sub poenae perfidiaein symbolo scribetur Credo sanctam Ecclesiam walden to 1. doctrinâ 2. Verè enim ad omnes haereses compescendas omnes tractatus definitiones terminandas in materia fidei sola via est in qua errare non contingit concors patruÌ„ sententia ab ipsis ApostoloruÌ„ sedibus vsque ad nostratempora fideliter compilara In hoc enim simile erit regnum caelorum id est ecclesia catholica homini patri familias qui profert de thesauro suo noua vetera li. 2. c. 25. els where but it excludes authoritie Without Fourthlie he doth noâ— exclude generall Councells by thâ— Christian world approued and hâ— â—t should in Sainct Augustines â—es haue refused to subscribe to â—h authoritie or disputed against â—t which the vniuersall Church â—hat age beleeued and tought he â—t would not haue beleeued what â—s by so great authoritie proposed â—d bene thought madde rather then â—rthie the name of man Fiftlie â—her doth he exclude from infalâ—litie and power to abolish heâ—es the Gospels and other parts scripture and yet these be not â—t instrument or engine which he â—akes of so that you cannot build 〈◊〉 argument on those words to â—e infallibilitie awaie from all but 〈◊〉 Fathers Sixtlie notwithstanâ—g that Councells and the present â—urch are infallible it may be said â—the consent of the Fathers or â—he whole symbolicall Church â—h abolish all heresie because faith â—re readilie giues assent vnto that â—ch is so vniuersallie proposed â—derstandings not so well dispoâ— before doe quicklie stoope in 〈◊〉 case to giue reuerence to the â—h and such as doe not are condemned of all and so confoundâ— that they dare no more openlie pâ—fesse their errour whence it coâ— to passe that none making esteâ— either of the doctrine or of thâ— who stubbornlie doe persist in it degrees it is abolished And this one of those glorious prerogatiâ— which Waldensis so much coÌ„meâ— in the Church Besides the foresâ— readines in the vnderstanding whâ— it is by grace well disposed or 〈◊〉 lesse repugnance to render obedieâ— when it cannot with any shew pâ—tend reason for the refusall there dâ— appeare too more fullie in tâ— proponent the power of vniâ— which is in it selfe a dispositioâ— more plentifull participation of 〈◊〉 spirit and brings with it greaâ— force to conquer opposition Vndâ—standings well disposed yeild pâ—sentlie when the Councell speakâ— when the present Church hath â—ceaued and vniuersallie approâ— the Councell there is ex parte sâ—cti more adhesion and yet mâ— when the consent of all former aâ— is added and vnited and more 〈◊〉 there was in those that had Gradus adhaesionis ex parte subiecti as the â—choolemen speake euidentiam in â—ttestante S. Marke knew the Gosâ—ell which he wrote to be true yet â—hat the faithfull more easilie might â—eleeue it he had it n Vide to 1. doct 3. to 3. li. 2. c. 20. S. Hieron Catol script in Marco approued â—s S. Hierom doth relate by S. Peâ—er S. Paul knew the truth in the â—uestion moued at Antioch about â—ircumcision yet to make the creâ—ibilitie more appeare and more conâ—incing he went with it to the CouÌ„â—ell at Hierusalem where it was o Act. 15. â—efined And the Pastors there knewe too what was the truth yet â—or the greater weight of Authoriâ—ie they added testimonies of Scriâ—ture The scripture many times â—rings testimonies of scripture for confirmation as this Author showeth excellentlie to 1. l. 2. c. 20. and our blessed Sauiour himselfe in conâ—irmation of his resurrection cited Moyses and the Prophets When parts â—re vnited Bishops in Councell particular Churches in the vniuersall whole ages in the Symbolicall â—ater with most Auncient all vnder â—one eternall Word becomming one speaker and vttering in the language of all Nations as it were with one mouth in one spirit one and thâ— same thing no man that perceaueâ— it morallie can dissent This proponent hath a commaunding poweâ— ouer a wise mans vnderstanding anâ— it is a great engine to confound errour in which great engine he thaâ— should denie there were many paâ—ticular engines able to confounâ— Heresie wronges diuers particulaâ— in the companie vnlesse you esteeme it no wronge to denie that honour and abilitie to Prophets and Apostles ECclesia vniuersalis habet fidem indefectibilem non qâ—dem in generali synodo congregata quam aliquoties errâ— percepimus c. Baro p. 366. ex wald to 1. li. 2. c. 19. 4. FOurthlie to the same purposeâ— of remouing infallibilitie froâ— the present Church and Councellâ— he is cited out of another place speaking thus The vniuersall Churâ—â— hath faith which cannot faile not indeed assembled in a generall synâ— which wee haue vnderstoode to haâ— failed sometimes c. In which citaâ—n abruptlie broken of for aduanâ—ge the Authors speach is
alios autem ita lego vt quaâ—talibet sanctitate doctrinaque polleant non idâ—o verum puâ—em quia ipsi ita senserunt sed quia mihi vel per illos authores canonicos vel probabili ratione quod à veritate non abhorreat persuadere potuerunt Baro p. 333. ex Aug. Ego solis eis Scriptoribus qui canonici c. Ibidem 1. OVT of that which hath been obserued from Stapleton will appeare the sence of S. Augustine wherefore he comes next There are four or fiue places cited out of him against the authoritie of Councells but for the most part verie impertinentlie and altogether against his minde We knowe there is a greate difference betwixt the canonicall writers and others betwixt the Epistles of the Apostles and those of Bishops after them betwixt their Acts written by S. Luke who in all he affirmes or relates is infallible and the Acts of generall Councells whose writers had not that assistance Wee doe not equalize or parallell one of these writings with the other Wee giue the soueraigntie to the scripture as being infallible in all so farre that it doth no where at all mistake in any thing This reuerence wee giue to the testimonie of those writers in what euer they auerr and giue not the like to any other testibus aut testimonijs be they witnesses or testimonies Albe it wee beleeue other witnesses in diuers things also though not so generallie in all without exception But I come to your exceptions The first is out of the 19. Epistle where S. AVGVSTINE tells S. Hierom to whom he writes it that he doth not imagine he would haue him so reade his bookes as if it were a heinous thing to doubt whether perchance in them some errour might be found that priuiledge was reserued to sacred writers I confesse saith he that vnto those bookes of scripture onlie which are now called canonicall I haue learned to deferre this feare and honour that I most firmelie beleeue none of those Authors to haue erred any thing in writing and if in eis literis in those writings I finde any thing which may seeme contrarie to the truth I make no doubt but that either the booke or coppie is faultie or that the interpreter hath not vnderstood what was said or that I my selfe doe not conceaue or vnderstand it In Baroe who doth vrge this authoritie against the Church and Councells decree or sentence and impertinentlie you may note these corruptions first that for a Si cum doctiore amico sic disputemus vt quicquid dixerit necesse sit approbare nec quaerendi saltem causa liceat aliquantulum reluctari tum verò sine vllo timore offensionis tanquam in caÌ„po luditur sed mirum si nobis non illuditur Ego enim fateor charitati tuae solis eis ScripturaruÌ„ libris qui iam canonici appellantur didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum authorem scribeodo aliquid errasse firmissimè credam Ac si aliquid in eis offendero literis quod videatur contrarium veritati nihil alâ—ud quam vel mendosâ—m esse codicem vel interpretem non assecutum esse quod lictum est vel me minimè intellexisâ—e non â—mbâ—gam Alios autem ita lego vt qâ—aâ—ta â—beâ— sanctitate doctrinaque praepolleant non ideo veâ—â—m pâ—â—â—m quia ipsi ita senserunt sed quia mihi vel per illos authores canonicâ—s vel probabili ratione quod à vero non abhorreat persuadere potuerunt Nec te mi frater sentite aliquid aliter existimo prorsus inquam non te arbitror sic legi tuos libros velle tanquam Prophetarum vel Apostolorum de quorum scriptis quod omni errore careant dubitare nefarium est S. Aug. Epist 19. ad Hier. Scripturarum libris to accomodate it the better for his purpose he puts in Scriptorum and Scriptoribus vrging the word against vs. Secondlie he omits aliquid in that part nullum eorum authorum scribendo aliquid errasse whereas the force of the speach and prerogatiue is by that word specified Thirdlie because in the words immediatlie following if they had been put downe his corruptions had been laid open to the reader by another aliquid and litteris he leaues them out immediatlie ioyning others which he thought to be more for his purpose as by comparison of his citation put aboue pag. 101. to the words themselues in this Addition it will appeare QVanquam sicut paulò ante dixi tantummodo Scripturis canonicis hanc ingenuam debeam seruitutem qua eas solas ita sequar vt conscriptores earum nihil in eis omnino errasse nihil falliciter posuisse non dubitem Baro p. 335. ex S. Aug. ad eundem sensum plura S. Augustines minde is further opened by another place brought as against vs out of the same Epistle S. Hierome had obiected against him seuen authors for his opinion in the matter whereof they dispute in that conference made by letters and demanding whom he followed he S. Aug. shewes first that S. Hierome did not approue of fower of his owne so that he was to finde out onlie three to set against the three that remained to which purpose he mentioneth as fauouring him S. Ambrose and S. Cyprian vnto whom because be did not himselfe esteeme so of their authoritie as if there might not exceptions be taken against their writings or opinion in some matter he addes a third of authoritie incontroulable namelie S. Paul His b Flagitas á me vt aliquem saltem vnum ostendam cuius in hac resententiam sim secutus cùm tutam plures nominatim commemoraueris c. cùm sint fermè sex vel septem horum quatuor authoritatem tu quoque infringis Nam c. tres igitur restant c. Si quaeras quid hinc senserit noster Ambrosius quid noster itidem Cyprianus inuenies fortasse nec nobis defuisse quos in eo quod asserimus sequeremur quanquam sicut paulò ante dixi tantuÌ„modo Scripturis c. vt suprà pag. 105. S. August epist 19. words obiected which are by him vttered on the foresaid occasion be these I owe to the canonicall scriptures onlie this ingenuous seruice or subiection whereby I follow them onlie so as I firmelie beleeue that their writers erred in them nihil omninò nothing at all nor put any thing in them deceitfullie It is the verie same that was before deliuered out of Stapleton And the rest of the citations wherein he compares writings with the Scriptures haue all the samesence * Neque enim quorumlibet disputationes quamuis Catholicorum laudatorum hominum velut Scripturas Canonicas habere debemus vt nobis non liceat salua honorificentia quae illis debetur hominibus aliquid in eorum scriptis improbare atque respuere si forte inuenerimus quod aliter senserint quam veritas habet diuino adiutorio vel ab alijs
it in your hearts not to meditate before what you shall answer for I will giue you a mouth and wisedome which â—ll your aduersaries shall not be able to gainesay nor resist Luc. 21. It shall â—e giuen to you in that same hower what â—ou shall speake for it it not you that â—peak Cum venerit ille Spiritus veritatis docebit vos omnem veritatem Non enim loquetur a semetipso sed quaecunque audiet loquetur c. de meo accipiet annuÌ„ciabit vobis Ioan. 16. Mea doctrina â—oÌ„â—st mea sed eius qui misit me Ioan. 6 Tâ—es sunt qui testimonium dant in caelo c. hi tres vnuÌ„ sunt 1. Ioan. 5. but the Spirit of your Father that â—eaketh in you Matt. 10. My words â—hat I haue put in thy mouth shall not â—epart out of thy mouth and out of the â—outh of thy seed c. saith our Lord â—om hence foorth and foreuer Esaie â—9 He that heareth you heareth me â—uke 10. Since you seek a proofe of â—hrist speaking in me 2. Cor. 12. The â—pirit of our Lord hath spoken by me â—nd his words by my tongue 2. Kings â— Againe The decrees which wee â—eak of haue the testimonie of the â—olie Ghost and the Scriptures â—ue the testimonie of the Holie â—host Now the Holie Ghost giuing testimonie to both these iâ— not thereby in himself deuided into two He is still the same testis Saint Gregorie our Apostle reuerenced the four first generall CouÌ„cels li. 1. Regest ep 24. vt quatuor Euangelia as he did the four Gospels Saint Augustine whose authoritie is heere obiected when he speakes of the sentence against the Donatists li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. saies Deus plenario Concilio reuelauit The Church Waldensis aboue told you make no doubt but that the Holie Ghost assists her li. 2. Doct. fid c. 27. in her sincere oecumenicall assemblies He is present to them and defines in them So dâ— the Apostles beleeue too Act. 15. attributing their decree to the Holie Ghosâ— whose assistance was * Suggeret vobis omnia Ioh. 14. In vobis erit IbideÌ„ Docebit vos omnem veritatem c. 16. promised It hath seemed good to the Holie Ghosâ— and to vs. This for Councels Noâ— for Scripture Well spake the Holie Ghost by Esaâ— the Prophet vnto our Fathers Aâ— vlt. God who at sundrie times and 〈◊〉 diuers manners spake in times pasâ— vnto the Fathers by the Prophets Heâ— 1. He spake by the mouth of his hoâ— Prophets which haue beene since 〈◊〉 world began Luc. 1. Holie men of God spake as they were moued by the Holie Ghost 2. Pet. 1. In a word There are diuisions of graces but one Spirit and there are diuisions of operations but one Lord and there are diuisions of ministrations but one God who worketh all in all And the manifestation of the Spirit is giuen to euerie one to profit To one c. Vide Disput li. 3 vbi agitur de Spiritus Sancti assistentia And all these things worketh one and the same Spirit diuiding to euerie one according as it will 1. Cor. 12. I forbeare to note that Saint Augustine speakes in the place obiected of a point * Cùm enim petiuisses vt de inuisibili Deo vtrum peroculos corporeos possit videri prolixè aliquid copioseque ad te scriberem negare non potui S. Aug. Epist 112. Quod non sic ostendero vt aut corporis aut animi sensu visum perceptumque teneatur tamen dixero aliquid quod aut verum quidem aut falsum esse necesse sit sed nullo illorum duûm genere videatur restat vt tantum modo credatur vel non credatur Sed si dininarum Scripturarum earum sc quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur perspicua quod dixero firmatur authoritate sine vlla dubitatione credendum est Alijs verò testibus c. vt suprà Ibidem Dico itaque quod visuri sint Deum in ipso corpore sed vtrum per ipsum sicut per corpus nunc videmus solem lunam stellas mare ac terram quae sunt in ea non parua quaestio est S. Aug. li 22. de Ciuit. Dei c. 29. Ratiocinatio illa Philosophorum qua disputant ita mentis aspectu intelligibilia videri sensu corporis sensibilia id est corporalia vt nec intelligibilia per corpus nec corporalia per scipsa mens valeat intueri si posset nobis esse certissima profectò certum esset per oculos corporis etiam spiritalis nullo modo posse videri Deum Sed istam ratiocinationem vera ratio prophetica irridet authoritas Ibidem Tametsi nec Scripturae nec ConcilioruÌ„ nec PatruÌ„ testimonijs expressè definituÌ„ sit noÌ„ posse Deum oculo corporeo videri id tamé adeo efficaci ratione naturali c. Vasquez 1. p. disp 40 c. 2. not determined by the Church whence ariseth a third Answer And he that can but English his m Inspiciatur codex manuscriptus words will himself espie a fourth and a fift Quasi Episcoporum Concilia Scripturis canonicis aliquando fuerint comparata Baro. p. 336 ex Aug. 3. The third exception is that Councells according to S. Augustine be not equall to the Scripture But I see not how any thing can be drawne hence against their infallibilitie in decrees Wee doe not equall the Apostles or the Prophets to our Sauiour Iesus Christ nor the written word with the eternall and increated word yet the Prophets and the Apostles and the Scripture or written word are infallible Moreouer the Canonicall Scriptures are infallible in all what euer they auouch of what argument or matter soeuer it be which latitude of infallibilitie wee finde not in the acts of Generall Councels nor in any other booke or writing as you were told before and though I doe not your selfe will repeate againe out of S. Augustine quis n S. Aug. li. 2. de bapt contr Donat. c. 3. nesciat Sanctam Scripturam canonicam tam veteris quam noui testamenti certis suis terminis contineri eamque omnibus posteriorum Episcoporum literis ita praeponi vt de illa omninò dubitari disceptari non possit vtrum verum vel rectum sit quicquid in ea scriptum esse coÌ„stiterit That quicquid doth import an amplitude of infallibilitie which Councells haue not and therefore they are not equall vnto Scripture The Donatists excepted against a Councell because it had in it registred the daie and the Consuls o Etiam hinc gestis ipsis CirteÌ„sibus calumniabantur quia ibi dies CoÌ„sules legebantur exigebaÌ„t à nobis vt aliqua Ecclesiastica Concilia proferremus vbi dies recitarentur consules c. etiam hoc exigebant vt de Scripturis sanctis ostenderemus alicubi dies Consules esse conscriptos quasi Episcoporum Concilia Scripturis
and this custome onlie was opposed to those which endeuoured to bring in that noueltie of rebaptization because they could not apprehend the truth yet afterwards whilst amongst many on both sides it is spoken of and sought it is not only sound out but also brought to the authoritie and strength of a generall Councell after Cyprians passion indeed but afore wee were borne And a litle after the words obiected gg c. 4. Neither durst wee affirme any such thing if wee were not well grounded vpon the most consenting or agreeable authoritie of the vniuersall Church vnto which vndoubtedlie he S. Cyprian would haue yeelded if as then the truth of this question being cleered and declared had been established by a generall Councell Hence it followes first that he did acknowledge in generall Councells authoritie to determine controuersies and this controuersie particularlie of rebaptization which you hh Error de rebaptizatione hereticorum qui certè fundamentalis â—o fuâ—â— noâ—dum erat in concilio plenario damnatus c. Baro p. 348. confesse was not in a matter fundamentall and that therein the truth was established by authoritie not of scripture this matter was not so resolued but of the world in a Councell and so farre established that all were to beleeue it and remotis dubitationibus without as much as doubting of it Whence it comes secondlie that to resist such a decree it is diabolicall which word he doth vse vppon another occasion and that such as maintaine the contrarie are indeed heretikes Thirdlie it is to be repeated which hath been said oft before that though wee maintaine the infallibilitie of sincere and approued generall Councells in their decrees of faith yet wee doe not beleeue that their infallibilitie is extended vnto all they write or speake and in all kinde of matter as not equallizing their acts with bookes of Scripture and consequentlie there may be something in such a Councell sometime that may need mending Neither yet doe wee maintaine or beleeue that all Councells which goe vnder the name of generall haue infallibilitie in their decrees some haue as those which are approued some haue not and these later may need mending euen in the decree they make touching faith Moreouer though the Councell that is plenarie and approued cannot commaund a vice or condemne vertue by decree yet may it commaund that which after may proue inconuenient or forbid what after may be admitted when circumstances are changed And if a lawe which at first was well made the circumstances of time and persons being afterwards other then they were before and notablie changed become inconuenient and consequentlie not good in these circumstances though good in it selfe and in other circumstances such as those were wherein it was first made it may be changed by power equall to that which made it The Apostles by decree did forbid the eating of suffocata things strangled yet afterwards when the circumstances were charged and feare of scandall quite remoued the Church began to doe the contrarie To frequent the ceremonies of the lawe now it were a Sinne peccaret mortalitersi quis nunc ceremonias obscruaret S. Tho. 1.2 q. 103. a. 4. though you knowe by what authoritie for the time they were commaunded If you be sick physick is good if you be well the same is bad for you The same thing may be conuenient and inconuenient good and bad in diuers circumstances When the common-wealth is distempered a lawe may be necessarie and at other times not vsefull yea inconuenient and therefore to be annulled And the common-wealth in anulling of it mends her Statute-booke respectiuelie to these later circumstances though when she made it first she did not commit a fault Fourthlie it is to be noted that by the doctrine of S. Augustine before deliuered there be some kinde of Councells which in their decrees of faith are not to be mended nor to be doubted of that it is hereticall to oppose them and consequentlie that they haue nor exteriour onlie but interiour obedience also remotis dubitationibus due to such their decrees which being manifest in him you labour in vaine to be extend his words obiected vnto all which were to make him contradict both the truth and the Church of his time and himselfe He saith and wee too that some generall Councells may be mended when by tryall or experiment that is opened which was shut vp and knowne which before was vnknowne but some generall Councells cannot be mended no nor questioned or doubted of in their decrees touching faith Now to your obiections in particular First you saie that he speakes of mending in matter of faith I answer that those words in matter of faith be your addition He speakes indeed of mending in such matters as by triall or experiment may be knowne but diuine verities which are the obiect of our faith be not of this nature Neither if there had been expressed in that clause which is of generall Councels matters of faith were you able to conclude any thing against vs for wee graunt that some which beare the name may be mended in that also Of all wee cannot graunt it without contradicting S. Augustine and making him withall to contradict himselfe Secondlie you saie that his scope or intention was to distinguish the authoritie of Scripture from all other authoritie wherefore since no generall Councell whatsoeuer is Scripture he meanes them all and will haue all subiect vnto mending I answer that he intended to satisfie three things obiected 1. S. Cyprians sentence or example 2. S. Cyprians writings 3. S. Cyprians Councell The comparison of Scripture is with writings and it is a part of his answer to the Second point as I haue related it And it is true that this writing hath the prerogatiue aboue all writings vide suprà pag. 130. pag. 106. marg that nothing at all can be questioned which it affirmes To S. Cyprians Epistles or any other mans wee owe not that seruice or honour Of Councels he speakes afterwards in the third place and you knowe that it is not essentiall to their decrees to be written There is also great difference betwixt Councells and the Scripture in infallibilitie as hath been showne many times although the decrees in faith of such as are approued are infallible But if you will haue him aime at this that all generall Councels whatsoeuer may be mended and in their decrees of faith you make him as before was obserued to contradict himselfe For these are contradictorie some may not as that of Nice and all may Moreouer by that saepè it is manifest that his speach is not generall as you would haue it saepè is short of Semper And the qualification which he doth vse is another argument of the same Thirdlie you saie that vnles S. Augustine speake in the words principallie obiected of amendment in matter of faith he leaues vnanswered the Donatists obiection But neither will this make any thing to your
this assistance the shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all what soeuer I shall haue said vnto you Ioann 14. So did the Apostle vnderstand it also in saying that Pastors are giuen to the end wee doe not wauer Ephes 4. nor be borne about with euery winde of doctrine Such a giddines happens in other things also besides fundamentalls The Church likewise beleeues the graunt to be thus vniuersall to all our Sauiours doctrine as appeareth by the matters which she defineth in generall Councels as in that of Trent And so much you will acknowledg of the primitiue Church if you reflect vpon that which hath beene said out of S. Augustine in the Donatists case about Baptisme which controuersie not being expressed in the Apostles Creed was in a Councell defined and in vertue of this assistance by the whole Christian world Neither doe you finde the difficultie which was resolued by the Apostles in their Councell put into the Creede Thirdlie you saie that out of a generall assistance such as God giues euerie man towards euerie good worke infallibilitie cannot be inferd and more you will not graunt But our Sauiour graunted more he promised the holie Ghost should teach the Church all truth Ioh. 14. 16. and his lessons must not be doubted of he cannot misse the truth or teach a lie The sence which he doth inspire teach affirme is certaine and the falsitie of any one thing were it possible he should teach a falsitie would infinitelie preiudice his authoritie in the estimation of his creatures yea the whole Scripture would be questioned if this ground were not firme â— Petr. 1. if that were not certaine which men inspired by the holie Ghost and affirming as from him or he in them might be false Fourthlie you saie that if the Councell follow Scripture it hath assistance and is infallible but not els This supposeth that the Church without assistance can vnderstand the Scripture or teach and define matter of faith whereas our Sauiour in the Scripture saith Ioann 15. without him wee can doe nothing and therefore he hath promised assistance that wee may knowe his will and our dutie and left the holie Ghost in the Church to teach her all truth The Iewes and Pagans and heretikes looke on Scripture but they doe not vnderstand it The Church hath a Master the Holie Ghost left to teach her and by his helpe doth vnderstaÌ„d What need a Schoolemaster if your child doth by himselfe vnderstand his booke or will you call it instruction if he neuer tell him any thing but what the child himselfe knowes before you knowe moreouer that when the Controuersie is about the Scripture the written word or about the Apostles Creed or generall tradition assistance is necessarie and also for the sence of Scripture more then is by your definition fundamentall To omitt that in your answer you allowe the Church no greater securitie from errour by the promised assistance then you graunt to be in pagans and heretikes without it for they dot not erre if they followe Scripture and iudge as it is there So little is the discretion of this answer and so small a benefit or rather no benefit you coÌ„ceaue to be bestowed in that faire promise Whereas wee beleeue our Sauiour to be God who neither mocks his Church nor breakes his word he can and will make and bringe to passe Ezech. 36. that she walke in his precepts He writes his lawes in her heart Ierem. 31. what hinders him and keepes his words Isa 59. in her mouth He hath opened a Schoole and put a Master in the chaire Docebit saith he he shall teach and if the lessoÌ„ be forgot suggeret Ioan. 14. he shall bringe it to minde againe he is not to staie till men finde it of them selues he is Master and shall teach it Fiftlie you saie that you are content exteriour obedience be giuen to generall Councells but no more Yet more must be giuen to the holie Ghost and in Councells He defineth Visum est Spiritui Sancto nobis Act. 15. were the words of the Councell it seemeth good to the holie ghost and to vs not to vs onlie but to him in himselfe and in vs heere assembled with his assistance promised in cases of this nature and wee are certaine that he who promised will performe to decide a controuersie our act is his act 2 Cor. 13. to Him it hath seemed good In S. Paul Christ spake the Apostles words 1. Thess 1. were acknowledged to be and were indeed the words of God Luc 10. the holie Ghost speakes in the Church the definition is his you must beleeue it and Matt. 18. remotis dubitationibus to vse S. Augustines words S. Aug. suprà there is no more doubt to be made of it In the conclusion of your discourse you repeate againe what you said in the beginning Alij fatentur opus esse iudice loquenteâ—eâ— homine Volunt tameÌ„ posse ab eo prouocari in foro in â—erno sea conscientiae Siâ— Wittakerus c. Sed hoc facilè refellitur tum quia in hac materia gratis confingitur haec distinctio fori tum etiam quia pax Ecclesiae sita est potissimum in foro interno scilicet in fide ergo non licet in eo foro prouocare à Iudice Ecclesiae alioquin nunquam pax esset conscientiae tum praeterea quia praxis Ecclesiae in Concilio Apostolorum aliorum generalium Conciliorum planè declarat quod Iudex Ecclesiae habeat potestatem dirimendi lites in foro conscientiae tum demum quia si quis teneretur obedire iudicio Ecclesiae in foro externo non in interno teneretur aliquando silentio sepelire veritatem Dei eamque non confiteri coram hominibus nempe si Ecclesia sententiam ferret contra Dei veritatem Accedit quod potestas Ecclesiae est spiritualis in animas ipsas ergo potestas illius iudicandi se extendit etiam ad forum internum Reuerendiss Chalc. in Collat. li. 2. c. 28. that wee beleeuing the Councels to be directed in their Decrees by the Holie Ghost in vertue of our Sauiours promise made vnto the Church attribute more to them then Antiquitie hath donne The vanitie of which your pretence sufficientlie appeares by that which hath beene answered to your exceptions in particular You finde none that denies what wee beleeue Yea those whom you produce to speake against vs affirme it constantlie And who more Auncient in the ranck of Christians then the Apostles themselues whose testimonie you haue heard in our behalf You haue beene told also that in Sainct Augustines daies the Catholikes vniuersallie and amongst them the greatest schollers submitted their iudgments to the iudgment of the Church in Councell and this too though the point so determined were neither fundamentall nor found in Scripture You shall finde also as hath beene likewise insinuated