seueritate That is Neither haue I therefore sayd this that the ecclesiasticall discipline should be neglected and that euery one should be suffered to do what he will without rebuke and without a certaine medicinable reuenge terrible lenittie and seueritie of loue In the 37. Chap. of the same booke hauing spoken of the corne and the chaffe mixed together the wheate and the tares growing together the good fishes and the had in the same nette together vnto the end of the world he then inferreth Nec propterea tamen ecclesiastica disciplina negligitur à constantibus diligentibus prudentibus dispensatoribus Christi vbi crimina ita manifest antur vt nulla possint probabili ratione defendi That is Notwithstanding the ecclesiasticall discipline is not therefore neglected of the constant diligent and wise dispensers of Christ where the crimes are manifested in such sort that they can in no probable maner be defended In the fourth Chapter of his booke after the conference with the Donatists taking aduantage of a saying which they vttered which was this Nec causae causa praeiudicat nec personae persona That is neither doth cause preiudicate cause neither one person another Hee saith that the cause and person of the tares doth not preiudicate the cause and person of the wheat growing together in the same field vntill the haruest come The cause and person of the chaffe doth not preiudicate the cause and person of the corne beeing together in the same floare vntill the last winnowing The cause and person of the goates doth not preiudicate the cause and person of the sheepe kept together in the same pastures vntill the great shepheard shall separate them to the right hand and to the left in the last day The cause and person of the euill fishes doth not preiudicate the cause and person of the good fishes though they bee held in the same nette to be separated in the last shoare Then he addeth Quibus parabolis figuris ecclesia praenunciata est vsque in finem seculi bonos malos simul habitura ita vt nec mali bonis obesse possint cum velignorantur vel pro pace tranquillitate ecclesiae tolerantur si eos prodi aut aâ—cusari non oportuerit aut alijs bonis non potuerit demonstrari ita sanè vt nec emendationis vigilantia quiescat corripiendo degradando excommunicando caeterisque coertionibus licitis atque concessis quae salua vnitatis pace in ecclesia quotidie fiunt secundum praeceptum Apostolicum charitate seruata qui dixit si quis autem non obaudit verbo nostro per epistolam hunc notate nolite commisceri cum eo vt erubescat non vt inimicum existimetis sed corripite vt fratrem Sic enim disciplina seruat patientiam patientia temperat disciplinam vtrumque refertur ad charitatem ne fortè aut indisciplinata patientia foueat iniquitatem aut impatiens disciplina dissipet vnitatem That is to say By which parables and figures the Church is foreshewed that it shall haue the good and the bad together vnto the ende of the world so as the euil cannot hurt the good when either they are not knowne or else are tolerated for the peace and tranquilitie of the Church if it be not behoueful that they shal be manifested or accused or that it cannot be shewed to others that be good euen so verelie as yet the watchfulnesse of redressing may in no wise rest in rebuking degrading excommunicating and in other lawfull and allowable restraints which the peace of vnitie receiuing no dammage are daylie practised in the Church without any hindrance or breach of loue according to the Apostles precept which sayd If any obey not our word note him by an Epistle and haue no fellowship with him that he may bee ashamed and esteeme him not as an enemie but admonish him as a brother For in so doing the discipline doth keepe patience and patience doth temper the discipline and both are referred vnto charitie least either vndisciplined patience should foster iniquitie or impatient discipline might dissolue and scatter the vnitie Thus farre Augustine by which words he sheweth that albeit the good and the bad shall alwaies euen to the end of the world bee mixed together on heapes in the Church so that oftentimes open sinners cannot bee all cast foorth without daunger of schisme and therefore are to be tollerated for the peace of the Church yet the discipline is not to sleepe but sinners are to bee rebuked such as beare publike office if they deserue are to be degraded and depriued The notorious wicked are to bee excommunicated where the multitude is not guiltie with them but that they may be forsaken of all and so made ashamed but loue according to the rule of Saint Paule is to sit at the stearne and to order the whole matter least the seueritie of chasticing discipline if it were not mixed and tempered or as I may say delaied with patience might breed tumults and schismes and separations or least on the other side if tollerating patience were not sharpened by the seueritie of discipline it might nourish all manner of wickednes We see then what was the practise of the auncient Churches and that touching the Ecclesiasticall censures the mixture of patience and seueritie whollie referred vnto loue doo make a soueraigne plaister and medicine to salue and cure the sores of the Church Where these be not tempered together there is great decay for as the rigorous seueritie of Donatisme without any aswaging the heate of seueritie with the mixture of loue and patient tolleration doth rend vp and furiouslie teare all in peeces so doth ouermuch or a loose sufferance for it deserueth not the name of patience not regarding Gods honor nor mens saluation suffer the Lords field to ouergrowe with tares and fill the Lords Courts with Goates and Swine whereby holie things are greatlie prophaned the weake are made to stumble and many are cast downe Touching this first point then in controuersie betwéene the Donatists and the Churches I will conclude it with that which Augustine writeth in his treatise De vnitate Ecclesiae Chapt. 16. where hauing shewed in the former parts of the same booke that the controuersie was not about the head which is Christ but about the bodie which is his Church For touching the head they agreed and touching the bookes of holie Scripture and their authoritie there was no dissent at all betweene the Donatists and them Then further he commeth to this poynt that as Christ the head is to bee sought for and knowne onlie in the Canonicall Scriptures so the Church which is his bodie is likewise to be sought for found out and iudged onely by the same bookes of Scripture Then he calleth for triall not by those darke places of the Byble which are spoken in figures and may be expounded diuers waies in probable sense but from the manifest cléere
A Plaine Declaration that our Brownists be full Donatists by comparing them together from point to point out of the writings of Augustine Also a replie to Master Greenwood touching read prayer wherein his grosse ignorance is detected which labouring to purge himselfe from former absurdities doth plunge himselfe deeper into the mire By George Gyffard Minister of Gods word in Maldon BY PEACE PLENTY BY WISDOME PEACE TO AT LONDON Printed for Toby Cooke dwelling at the Tygers head in Paules Churchyard 1590. TO THE RIGHT HOnorable Sir William Cecill Knight of the Garter Baron of Burghley Lord high Treasurer of England and Chauncellor of the Vniuersitie of Cambridge Grace and peace I Published a Booke Right Honourable against the Brownists who complaine of hard dealing and not onlie they but others in that I haue termed them Donatists and charge them with sundrie foule matters And hauing now receiued from them an answer vnto one part of that my booke I haue also framed this replie In which I first set downe from point to point out of the writings of the holie Father Augustine with what Scriptures and arguments it was defended and so compare our mens writings and doings with the same They must for this chuse either to affirme that the Donatists had the truth and the churches were perished or else shewe some materiall points of Donatisme which they doo not hold And then in the latter part of this my booke I answer to that which is published now by them against read prayer As I was bold to present the former vnto your Honor so do I also humblie offer this presuming vpon your Honors fauourable acceptation And thus I beseech the Lord God to blesse and prosper your Honor. Amen To the Reader GOod Christian reader I published a booke against the Brownists whom I haue in the same termed the Donatists of England How farre of I was from purposing anie such thing at the first and how I was drawne into it afterward I haue in that former booke truly reported And for warrant of my doing before the Lord I had no doubt but that it should bee an acceptable seruice to Christ notwithstanding when I respect the waightines and necessitie of the worke I haue alwaies wished and do wish that some man of greater learning might deale against thē Neither as yet am I cast into any thoughts of doubting by the mislike or fault finding of some in all places which are no Brownists But I am rather thrust forward by beholding that weakenes of iudgement and want of vnderstanding not in a feaw touching the foulnes of Donatisme and by the sight of such nerenes of multitudes vnto the danger which before I coulde not suspect Now touching the faultes which are found which causeth the mislike they are partelie for the matter it selfe and partlie for the manner of dealing both in it as also towards the persons themselues against whome I write In the matter some haue found fault as though I should stand to cleere to iustifie al things not onlie in the Booke of Common praier but also in the calling and ordination of our Ministers and in our Church gouernement others affirme that I haue diminished the faults which are esteemed to be in these and made them lighter at the least by not reproouing them The first sort I cannot but meruaile at seeing I haue in that my former booke set downe expressie in these words that the matter in question betweene the Brownists and me is not about the controuersie in our Church as whether there be imperfections corruptions and faults in our Worship Ministerie and Church gouernement nor how many great or smal but whether there be such heinous enormities as destroy the verie life and being of a true Church and make an vtter diuorse from Christ I doo then lay open the state of this question so plainelie as I know not how to make it more plaine now vnles I should run through euerie particular which wee deale in which I thought to be needlesse but now I will a little stand vpon it They reckon Romish fasts Ember dayes Saincts eues and Lent Idoll feasts as Alhallowes Candlemas seuerall Ladie daies Saincts daies dedicating Churches vnto Saints Comminations Rogations and Purifications Tithes Offerings Mortuaries howsling the sick with the Sacrament absolution and blasphemous dirges and funerall Sermons ouer and for the dead Corrupt manner of administring the Sacraments the Font the crosse in Baptisme Baptisme by women gossippings blasphemous and hereticall collects These and certaine other haue they set downe to bee in the Booke not vnder the termes of faults blemishes and corruptions but as heresies blasphemies and abominations and that such as ouerturne the foundation of the Christian faith destroy the substance of Gods worship and take away the life and beeing of a true Church To this I haue answered that they be foule slaunderours liars false accusers shewing that our Church hath renounced in those former things that which is blasphemous and hereticall or so abominable as that it approacheth neerest to the destroying of the faith and holy worship of the Lord. As namelie the remission of sinnes and merite of eternall life by fasting which is the doctrine of the Romish church The worship and inuocation of Saints and Angels the power of expelling Diuels by the signe of the crosse and such like things which the papacie is full of but reiected by vs. If the Brownists in their replie against that I haue written shall prooue by the word of God that there be great corruptiōs in our praiers in our fasts in our keeping the Saints dayes in the Crosse and in manie other things which bee in our Church as in our Ministerie and Church gouernemēt And further if their proofes be neuer so clere strong from the Scriptures yet they answere not me at al nor touch the question or controuersie between them and me vnles they can prooue them to be such faults as destroy the worship of God ouerturne the foundation of the faith and take away the verie life and being of true Christianitie If I say they do not prooue them according as they haue set thē downe to bee blasphemies heresies abominations yea the verie worship and yoake of Antichrist the marke of the beast and his power I remaine vnanswered and they stand conuicted as liars slanderers and most wicked false accusers not of particular persons but of whole Churches For I shewed in expresse wordes that I doo not meddle at all in these questions whether there bee corruptions and faults in our Church condemned by Gods word whether they bee manie or fewe whether they bee small or great but onelie thus farre whether they bee such or so great as make our Churches Antichristian Here therefore I doo intreate the Christian Reader to fixe his eyes in reading my writings and theirs onelie vppon this one question whether there be in our Church any errors or faults that be found amentall Looke if
concerning read prayer peruse it throughlie and then iudge whether I haue charged him wrongfullie in any matter I do lament that many of our people which haue been hearers of the Gospell should be so ignorant as to suck in such dregs as he offereth Now to conclude there are two things which deceiue many which I desire thē to consider one is that they are caried away with many true and notable sentences of Scripture worthie principles which the Brownists set down not considering or not espying how they from them doo draw out false assumptions and thereupon cōclude that which is vntrue The other is that they looke not vpō that which followeth vppon their wordes by consequence but stand vpon this O they hold no such thing they haue wrong Master Greenwood crieth out that he doth not condēneal Churches he denieth not that the psalmes are to be sung to God he saith not that the regenerate do not sin he hath no such meaning he hath wrong But mark if I haue done him any wrong at all looke vpon his sayings and vpon that which must needes followe vpon them The other Brownists crie out of the like wrōgs Iudge not vntil both ye heare wherein they haue wrong and see mine answer If I haue charged them with matter which either their words doo not expresse or that followeth not from them by necessarie consequence let me then bee iudged rash and vncharitable FINIS That the Brownists are full Donatists NO Apostle no Prophet no Euangelist no true pastor or teacher can haue his owne name put vpon the Disciples which he gathereth but as they bee all gathered onely by Christes doctrine and vnto Christ alone according as it is written one is your Doctor euen Christ Matth. 23. so are they onely by his title called Christians But it hath béen the manner of olde and euen from the time of the Apostles in Gods Church when any wicked schisme or heresie hath sprung vp to call the scholers and followers by the names of the first masters of the same and chiefe leaders As of Montanus the Montanists of Nouatius the Nouatians of Arrius the Arrians of Pelagius the Pelagians of Donatus the Donatists of the Pope the Papists c. And who shall reprehend this as vaine or condemne it as a thing vniust seeing wee followe his example who saith to the Angell of the Church of Pergamus Reuel 2. Thou hast them which hold the doctrine of the Nicholaitanes Now there is a sect in England commonly called Brownists not because Browne was the first originall of it but for that he hath written and published bookes in maintenance and enlargement thereof and with more skill and learning than others which either as yet haue followed or gone before him Many men thinke that they bee sprung vp but of late whereas in very déede it is well knowne there was a Church of them in London 20. yeares past and one Bolton a principall doer therein whose fearefull end is not forgotten I haue termed them the Donatists of England How iustly and how charitablie and with what due consideration it standeth me now vpon to shewe least the ignoranter sort of such as somewhat fauour them should imagine that I haue iniuriouslie and falselie giuen them this odious title to worke their vniust discredite For Donatisme in olde time about twelue hundred yeares past was condemned as a detestable proud Schisme and heresie that began at Carthage in Aphrica and was vehementlie withstood by the faithfull Pastors and cut downe by the holie Scriptures as no learned godlie man will denie The holie Father Augustine was the chiefe that did ouerthrowe them as his writings which are extant answering to their writings at large doo declare Now my purpose at this time is to compare them together the Donatists and the Brownists from point to point out of the writings of Augustine If it fall out cléere and manifest that they agree together as euen as two peeces of cloath that are of the same wooll the same threed colour working breadth and that an Egge is no liker to an Egge than they be each to other I hope all that be sober minded will not blame me for giuing them the same title Their originall first of the Donatists I meane and how they cut off themselues is to bee noted set foorth which was this From the birth of our Sauiour Christ for the space of thrée hundred yeares more there were euer anon great and greeuous persecutions raised vp against the Church by the Romane Emperours vntill the Emperour Constantine the great imbraced the holie Gospell and gaue peace to the Christians In those daies of persecution such as through feare or otherwise did deliuer to the cruell persecutors either the bookes of the holie Scriptures that they might burne and deface them or the vessells appointed for holie vse in the publike assemblies that they might carrie them away or the names of the brethren that they might finde them out such I say were called traditores that is deliuerers or traitors There was a rumour that such offence had béen by some committed as no doubt it was by many Now as Augustine reporteth in his Psalme against the Donatists there came certaine Bishops from Numidia vnto Carthage a famous Citie in Aphrica to ordeine a Bishop and found Caecilianus alreadie ordeined and placed in the Seate then were they wroth that they could not ordeine They ioyned together and layd a crime vpon Caecilianus They say his ordeiner deliuered the holie bookes and was a traitor whereupon they will haue him reputed no Minister of Christ but the sonne of a traitor There was no assemblie of the learned Pastors for to iudge in this case according to Christes ordinance and discipline the accused and the accuser did not stand foorth for triall There were no witnesses produced to prooue the crime neither were matters scanned by the Scriptures But furor dolus tumultus that is furie deceipt and tumult did beare the sway as Augustine sheweth in the same his Psalm They assembled which were the accusers and Caecilianus is condemned being absent by Tigisitanus Secundus as hée sheweth in his first booke against Parmenian Chap. 3. and in his third booke against Cresconius Chap. 40. Now was there great stirre and deuision begun Donatus he steppeth foorth and requireth of the Emperour Constantine to haue Iudges not of Aphrica out beyond the seas to heare the crime which was to be obiected against Caecilianus The Emperour appointed that the matter should bee heard at Rome where Caecilianus was cléered and Donatus and his part receiuing repulse appealed accusing Meltiades then Bishop of Rome that he was also traditor as Augustine reporteth in his first booke against Parmenian Chapt. 5. and so they require to haue the cause heard by the Emperour vnto whom they had appealed where hauing also the repulse as false accusers they say y e Emperour was corrupted through fauour They made a
separation from Caecilianus and those that claue to him The deuision grewe greater and greater they had assemblies and Bishops on Donatus part in processe of time in great number They condemned not only the Church at Carthage and the neighbour Churches in Aphrica as guiltie therewith but all Churches through the world as wrapped together in the guiltines of those Churches of Aphrica They pronounced them all polluted vncleane abominable and vtterlie fallen from the Couenant of God through the pollution of such as had committed sacrilege and were not seperated They said there were no Ministers of Christ no Sacraments so no true Church among them but heapes of wicked polluted sacrilegious persons whose teachers were all generations of traitors Iudasses persecutors of Gods Saints and that as many as would bee saued must seperate themselues and ioyne with the pure selected companie of Donatus And for these respects they baptized again all such as fell vnto them as not being baptized before but polluted with a prophane washing Now through the shew of burning zeale and stiffe rigorous seueritie in condemning sinne and by the vehement outcries which they made that the discipline was not duely executed in as much as the prophane were mingled together in the assemblies with y e pure and no seperation made many of the people not well settled and grounded in the trueth were terrified and turned vnto them taking them to be most zealous holie men and the onlie true Church in earth and with excéeding bitternesse condemned all other as abominable Idolaters and cursed traytors whose worship God abhorred It was before the daies of Augustine that this sect began and in his time was greatlie spread And when he wrote that it was against all equitie to condemne as they did at the first the whole world for the sinne of Caecilianus because if he were guiltie yet the Churches farre off knew not so much but might rather iudge him cléere being cléered in iudgement They maintained the matter to prooue that there were no true flocks nor pastors after another sort and did affirme that as the Church of Carthage and the Churches elsewhere in Aphrica were fallen from God by the pollution of the sacrilege of Caecilianus and other so all other Churches in the world were destroyed by the like sacrileges committed in the daies of persecution by wicked men among them whose sinnes were open and knowne and no seperation made For thus speaketh Parmenian a Donatist Bishop as Augustine doth set it downe in his first booke against him and third Chapter Dicit etiam Parmenianus hinc probari consceleratum fuisse orbem terrarum criminibus traditionis aliorum sacrilegiorum quia cum multa talia fuerint tempore persecutionis admissa nulla propterea facta est in ipsis prouincijs separatio populorum That is Parmenian also saith that from hence it is prooued that the world hath been together made wicked or hainouslie polluted with the crimes of treason and of other sacrileges because when many such things were done in the time of persecution there was no seperation of the people made for the same in the Prouinces Marke well this saying of Parmenian the Donatist for it doth expressie set downe the ground of Donatisme The words of Petilian another Donatist Bishop to prooue all the Ministers of the Churches to be but successors of traitors as Augustine doth report them in his second booke against him Chapt. 8. are many I will onely recite the chiefe of them This Petilian hauing before saide that he which is baptized by one that is dead his washing doth profite him nothing then procéedeth to shewe how farre as he saith an vnfaithfull traitor may be accompted dead while he liueth And for this be frameth a comparison betwéene Iudas and the Pastors of the Church condemning them as the worse For after he hath set forth that Iudas was an Apostle when he betraied Christ and spirituallie dead when he had lost the honour of an Apostle and as it was foretold by Dauid that another should haue his place so Matthias succéeded him in the Apostleship He would haue no foole here dispute that Matthias dare away triumph and not iniurie which by the victorie of Christ had the spoyle of the traitor Then he demandeth how canst thou by this déede challenge to thy selfe the office of a Bishop being the heire of a more wicked traitor Iudas Christum carnalem tradidit tu spiritualem furens Euangelium sanctum flammis sacrilegis tradidisti Iudas betraied Christ carnal thou spirituall being in furie thou hast deliuered the holie Gospell to the fire Iudas legislatorem tradidit perfidis tu quasi eius reliquias legem dei perdendā hominibus tradidisti Iudas betraied the lawgiuer to the wicked thou hast betraied as it were his reliques the lawe of God vnto mē to be destroied Si hominis mortui testamentū flammis incenderes nonne falsarius punireris quid de te ergo futurum est qui sanctissimam legem dei iudicis incendisti If thou shouldest burne the will of a dead man shouldest thou not bee punished as a falsifier what then shall become of thee which hast burnt the most holie lawe of GOD the Iudge Iudam facti vel in morte poenituit te non modò non poenitet verumetiam nequissimus traditor nobis legem seruantibus persecutor carnifex existis Iudas repented him of his deed at least in death but thou doest not onely not repent but also being a most wicked traitor remainest a persecutor and a tormentor of vs that keepe the lawe Cresconius a Grammarian one as it seemeth that taught some Grammar schoole tooke vpon him to write against Augustine in the defence of Petilian or rather of the whole Donatisme and he laieth to the charge of Caecilianus the vnpardonable sinne against the holie Ghost in betraying the scriptures to the persecutors vsing this argument Holie men of God deliuered them as they were led by the holie Ghost Augustine in the 4. booke against Cresconius Chapt. 8. Petilian though otherwise full of great bragging being verie vnwilling to haue open disputation in any open assembly of learned men vsed this arrogant speach Indignum est vt in vnum conueniant filij martyrum progenies traditorum It is an vnworthie thing that the sonnes of the Martyres and the generations of traitors should be assembled together Thus much may suffice for this poynt Where we see that the Donatists departed disorderlie out of the Church condemning it not for any poynt of doctrine for therein they did not disagree but for that many which in the time of persecution dissembled many which reuolted and to saue their liues did sacrifice to the Idolls many which deliuered the bookes of holie Scripture to bee burned and betraied the names of the brethren when the storme was ouer there was a sodaine calme the Emperour Constantine being become Christian such ioy in all Christian lands Christianitie magnified with such honour
communicate with them are polluted and cast away or reade the bookes and writings of theirs which are spread marke well the sentences and places of Scripture which they alleage and quote and what reasons they drawe out of them and then looke vpon these For I will note the chiefe Testimonies of holy Scripture that the Donatists did alleage to proue that all Churches were polluted by the mixture of open sinners and that a separation was commaunded by God from such assemblies which are these Come out from among them saieth the Lord and touch no vncleane thing and I will receaue yee and I will be your Father and you shall be my Sonnes and my Daughters saith the Lord God Almightie 2. Cor. 6. Haue no fellowship with the vnfruitefull workes of darkenes but rather reprooue them Ephes 5. Bee not partakers of other mens sinnes 1. Tim. 5. A little leauen dooth leauen the whole lumpe and take away the euill from among yee 1. Cor. 5. Ifanie which is called a Brother be a Fornicator an I dolater or couetous c. with such see that yee eate not 1. Cor. 5. What hath the Chaffe to doo with the Corne Ierem. 23. Also depart depart come out from thence and touch no vncleane thing come out from the middest thereof and seperate your selues yee that beare the vessels of the Lord. I say 52. All these and some other did Parmenian the Donatist Bishop alleage in his Epistle Wee may not thinke that these Scriptures were alleaged onely by some one Donatist for Augustine in his booke De vnico Baptismo against Petilian Chapter 14. saith Magis enim solent in ore habere quando peccatis aliorum alios criminantur ad excusandum nefas separationis suae videbas furem concurrebas cum eo c. For they are wont rather to haue in their mouth when they accuse some to be guiltie or polluted by the sinnes of other to excuse their wicked seperation Thou sawest a theefe and diddest run with him Psal 50. And be not partakers of other mens sinnes depart and come out from thence touch no vncleane thing he that shal touch that which is vncleane shal be poluted and a little leauen dooth leauen the whole lump and other such like Now what the estate of the question was and how they held men polluted if they did not seperate themselues the disputation betweene the Catholique Bishops and the Donatists which were assembled at the cōmaundement of the Emperour dooth shew Where the names of the Donatist Bishops that had subscribed their consent to that conference were two hundreth seauentie and nine but some of them were not there Thus Augustine reporteth their words in the conference of the third day Chapter 4. Quia in eo quod dicebant diuinis testimonijs velut astruebant non esse malos in ecclesia tolerandos sed ab eis recedendum propter contagium peccatorum Itase dicere demonstrabant vt tamen ignoratis peccatis alienis neminem maculari posse faterentur Because euen in that which they saide and which they did as it were confirme by the Scriptures that the euil are not to be tolerate in the Church but wee must depart from them for feare of the contagion of their sins they shewed that they spake it to be vnderstoode thus that neuerthelesse they confessed that no man could be spotted with other mens sinnes which are secret In this conference the Donatist Bishops stoode vpon this that the Lord saith of the Church Esay 52. There shall no vncircumcised or vncleane passe through thee anie more And vpō that which is writtē by the Prophet Hag chap. 2. Ask the Preests concerning the Lawe If a man carrie holie flesh in the lappe of his garment and the lappe of his garment shall touch the bread c. Shall he bee sanctified The Priests answered no. Then if a man that is vncleane touch any of those things shall it not bee vncleane The Priestes answer it shall bee vncleane So is this people and so is this Nation before me saith the Lord and so is the whole work of their hands yea that which they haue offered there hath been vncleane Stay now and see whether the very same Scriptures bee not in the mouthes of the common sort of the Brownists and whether the writings of the chiefe Brownists bee not euerie where spatred with the quotations of them And to proue the same thing which the Donatists held and maintained by them namelie that such as communicate with open sinners are polluted by their sinnes and therefore they separate themselues But that this agreement betweene them may yet more fully appeare I will proceed further and shewe how these matters were discussed For otherwise it maye bee some man will imagine that the auncient Fathers might defend the Churches against those allegations of the Donatists after such a sort as wee canne not truly defende ours at this day Whereas therefore it was by the Donatists vrged depart depart come out from among them seperate your selues touch no vncleane thing c. the answere was by the Pastors of the Churches that this seperation was not to bee made in bodie when the Church is pestered with open sinners but in heart and not consenting in minde vnto the sins openly committed by those with whom they did communicate in the Church These be the wordes of Augustine against Parmenian in the second booke Chapt. 18. Qua verba isti carnaliter sentientes per tot diuisiones seipsos minutatim in ipsa vna Aphrica conciderunt Non enim intelligunt neminem coniungi cum infidelibus nisi qui facit peccata Paganorum vel talia facientibus fauet Nec quenquam fieri participem iniquitatis nisi qui iniqua vel agit vel approbat Quis autem communicat tenebris nisi qui per tenebras consentionis suae dimisso Christo sequitur Belial quis ponit cum infidelibus partem suam nisi qui eius infidelitatis fit particeps Ita enim templum dei esse desinit nec se aliter simulachris adiungit Qui autem sunt templum dei viui in medio nationis tortuosae ac peruersae apparent sicut luminaria in mundo verbum vitae habentes nihil eos quod pro vnitate tolerant inficit nec angustiantur quia in illis habitat deambulat deus exeunt de medio malorum atque separātur interim corde ne forté cum id facere per seditionem Schismatis volūt prius a bonis spiritualiter quam a malis corporaliter separentur That is to say which words they vndetstanding carnally for he had before repeated their allegation Come out from among them and touch no vncleane thing they haue cut themselues by morsels into so many diuisiōs in that one Aphrica for they doe not vnderstand that no man is ioyned with Infidels but he that doth commit the sinnes of the Pagans or else doth fauour those that doe such things neither that any
for that I say many such returned to professe the Gospell againe as members of the Church and were receiued For saide the Donatists the Church is holie consisting of such as be called foorth and separated from the vnpure and wicked world and therefore no separation being made but such villanous traitors so vile Idolaters and their childrē being communicated withall all your assemblies through this mixture are none other before GOD but heapes of abominable vncleane persons Your teachers are the sonnes of Apostates and traitors and no Ministers of Christ Now looke vpon the Donatists of England Antichrist hath béen exalted according to the prophesie of S. Paule he hath sate in the Temple of God boasting himselfe as God persecuting and murthering Gods true worshippers He is disclosed by the glorious light of the Gospell his damnable doctrine cursed Idolatrie and vsurped tyrannie are cast foorth of this land by the holie sacred power of our dread Soueraigne Ladie Quéene Elizabeth whom God hath placed settled vpon the Throne of this noble Kingdome The true doctrine of faith is published and penalties are by lawes appoynted for such as shall stubbernlie despise the same Our Donatists crie out that our assemblies as ye may see in their printed bookes and that the people were all by constraint receiued immediatlie from Idolatrie into our Church without preaching of the Gospell by the sound of a Trumpet at the Coronation of the Queene that they bee confused assemblies without any separation of the good from the bad They affirme also that our Ministers haue their discent and ordination and power from Antichrist and so are his marked seruants Hereupon not vnderstanding the manifest Scripture that the Apostasie hauing inuaded the Church it continued still euen then the Temple of God in which Antichrist did sit and that the verie Idolaters were within the Church were sealed with the signe of baptisme professed Christ in some points rightlie their children from ancient discent being within the couenant of God and of right to bee baptized the Ministerie of Christ so farre remaining as that it was the authentick seale which was deliuered by the same in a mad furie like blind hypocrites they condemne the reformation by ciuill power and purging Gods Temple by the authoritie of Princes because the Church of Christ is founded and built by the doctrine of the Gospell Herein they are deceiued that they imagine the Princes take vpon them to compell those to bée a Church which were none before whereas indeed they doo but compell those within their kingdome ouer whome the Lord hath set them which haue receiued the signe of the couenant and professe themselues to bee members of the Church accordinglie to renounce and forsake all false worship and to imbrace the doctrine of saluation What other thing did Iosias and other holie Kings of Iuda when they compelled the multitude of Idolaters which were the seede of Abraham and circumcised to forsake their Idolatrie and to worship the Lord It is most cléere also that where the reformation of the Kings was not perfect as appeareth in the bookes of the Kings and Chronicles yet all the foulest things being abolished and the substance of trueth brought in they were reputed godlie Churches where many were false brethren and open offenders The Brownists blinded with their swelling pride and not séeing the euident matters of the Scriptures without all order of that holie discipline of Christ accuse condemne and forsake our Churches vnder the appearance of feruent zeale and rigorous seueritie against all sinne not inferiour to the Donatists as if they were the onely men that stood for Christ and his kingdome they crie out aloude and proclaime all the Ministers of our Churches to be Antichristian the sonnes of the Pope false Prophets Baals Priests that prophesie in Baal and pleade for Baal persecutors of the iust bearing the marke the power and life of the beast because they say our ordeiners bee such They say wee haue no word of God no Sacraments nor true Church but that all is vtterlie polluted and become abominable our assemblies they call the very Synagogs of Antichrist vtterlie fallen from the couenant of God and all that ioyne with them through the pollution of open sinners which are not cast foorth and therefore they haue separated themselues and crie aloude vnto others to doo the same if they will be saued What rule of discipline haue they obserued in this Haue these things béen brought foorth scanned discussed and iudged in the Synods of the learned Pastors and teachers of the Churches Nay but euen as Augustine saith of the other furor dolus tumultus furie deceipt and tumult do beare the sway Then I conclude that in this poynt of accusing condemning and manner of separating themselues from the Church the Donatists and the Brownists doo agree and are alike Some man will here replie that I build vppon a weake ground or rather vpon the sand in prouing the Brownists and the Donatists to bée all one because they are alike in accusing and condemning the Churches and separating themselues from the same For the matter resteth not simply vpon the actions but whether there were iust cause The question will bee whether the Brownists doo that iustlie which the Donatists did vngodly For the Donatists did accuse the Churches and Ministers falsely condemned them most wickedly and therefore their separation could not bee good because it was from the true Churches of Christ but now if the Brownists obiect open and manifest crimes such as cannot be denied their case doth differ farre May not a man separate himselfe from those assemblies where he seeth open sinners suffered on heapes to remaine in the bosome of the Church and where idolatries blasphemies and abominations are committed where the Ministers and gouernment be Antichristian but he must bée a Donatist Moreouer it is certaine the Donatists did condemne all Churches in the world the Brownists doo condemne onely the assemblies as they generally stand in England which is a very great difference The Donatists hold that the Sacraments or the efficacie of them doth depend vpon the worthines of the Minister the Brownists are not of that mind The Donatists did rebaptize the Brownists doo vrge no such thing It may be also they are vnlike in some other things if it be so why should they be termed Donatists Indeed if there be such differences the Brownists haue great wrong to bee called Donatists and to bee condemned with so wicked a sect But what if it fall out otherwise and that it be shewed and prooued manifestlie that they be all one in these things Shall wee not then say they be euen brethren shall they not stand or fall with the Donatists shall they be vngodlie Schismatickes and not these I will procéede from poynt to poynt to compare them together that it may appeare whether there be difference Touching the first it is most true that the Donatists did accuse and condemne
the end of the world alleaged first that the Church is called Christes flower where the corne and the chaffe are mixed together but he hath his fanne and will purge his flower and gather the corne into his barne and burne the chaffe with vnquenchable fire Matth. 3. The Donatists at the first rashlie replie that there was not the word flower expressed in the Scripture but when they were conuinced manifestlie in that then they say the chaffe did signifie the hypocrites and close sinners as though the chaffe did so resemble the corne that it could not be discerned Then next was alleaged the parable of the good seede and the bad and that the seruants were forbidden to plucke vp the tares least they should in plucking vp the tares plucke vp also together with them the wheate but they are willed to let them grow together vnto the haruest Matth. 13. Now because it is expresly said that the Tares appeared or shewed themselues and that the seruants did discerne them so y e it cannot be taken alone of close sinners The Donatists did flie vnto y e Cauil that the field is not y e church because he saith the field is this world And so they stood vpon this that y e godly open sinners are together in y e world but not in the Church For they did alleage many testimonies to shew that the world is taken for the wicked It was replied by the Catholike Bishops y t the world was sometimes put in good part as wheÌ„ it is said God was in Christ reconciling the world to himselfe And indéed if it were not taken to be the Church that the gdooseede the bad in the field were together in the Church howe shoulde the seruants haue a desire to pluck them vp what had they to doe to meddle with such as were without or why should there be danger in rooting them vp least they should together roote vp the wheat Then further when it was said that our sauiour compareth the kingdome of heauen vnto a Net cast into the sea which gathereth together of all sorts both good bad and which when it is ful men draw to land gather the good into vessells cast the bad away Math. 13. The Donatists to this said that the euill fishes did signifie close hypocrites and such sinners as could not be espied Victi euidentia veritatis malos in ecclesia vsque ad finem seculi permixtos esse confessi sunt sed occultos eos esse dixerunt quoniam sic a sacerdotibus ignorantur quemadmodum pisces intraretiacum adhuc in mari sunt a piscatoribus non videntur That is Being ouercome with euidence of truth they confessed that the euill are mixed in the Church eueÌ„ to the end of the world but they said they are secret because they are vnknowen of the Pastors euen as the fishes within the nettes while they are yet in the Sea are not scene of the fishers But if the Donatists had beene asked whether the fishes together in the Net doe not see one another what would they say Howe then are they secret and not seene of the Pastors who are also together with theÌ„ in the Net For they did erre in taking the Pastors to bee the fishers that shall draw the Nâ—t to the shoare For expounding it ou Sauiour saith The Angells shall goe foorth and seperate the euill from among the iust The Angels then are they that draw the Net to the shoare Were those vngodly sinners secret as fishes vnder the water which the Prophets complained of in olde time and yet did not in bodie seperate themselues from them in the Temple The like may be demanded touching the Pharisies and Saduces and the multitude of common people in the Church from whom our Sauiour did not seperate himselfe in bodie But the Donatists were impudent in denying that the Prophets and the other godly did worship together in the temple and at the same Altare with the wicked multitude whom they so sharply reprehended Now may the reader see what the Donatists maintained and wherefore they seperated themselues which I will expresse in the wordes of Augustine in his third booke against Cresconius Chapt. 81. Ibi enim tota defensiâ— vestra consistit quia propterea vos separastis ne aliorum peccatorum contagione periretis vndenouum genus areae vos secisse gloriamini aut quae solum triticum habeat aut in qua solum triticum appareat cui non sit necessarius ventilator sed perscrutator That is For therein doth your whole defence consist that therefore ye haue separate your selues that ye might not perish by the contagion of other mens sinnes wherevpon ye glorie that ye haue made a new kinde of floare which either hath in it only wheat or else in which there appeareth wheat alone which needeth not a winnower but a searcher The Donatists alleaging against the Churches for the open sinners mixed among them y e saying of Esay wo be to theÌ„ that cal euill good and good euill light darkenes and darkenes light c. Augustine answereth Quisques ergo vel quod potest arguendo corrigit vel quod corrigere non potest saluo pacis vinculo excludit vel quod saluo pacis vinculo excludere non potest aequitate improbat firmitate supportat hic est pacificus abisto maledicto immunis quod scriptura dicit va his qui dicunt quod nequam est bonu c Whosoeuer therefore dooth either amend that which hee can by reprouing or that which he cannot amend he casteth forth the band of peace being kept safe or that which he cannot cast out with the safetie of the band of peace by equitie hee disaloweth and beareth it with constancie this man is the peacemaker and is free from that curse which the Scripture pronounceth Woe be to them which cal euill good c. Against Parmenian booke 2. chap. 1. The Donatists alleaging the sentences of the Prophets to proue that all ought to separate themselues from those among whome the open notorious wicked men were suffered and not cast foorth he answereth that they cited the testimonies of Scripture and did not looke vpon the déeds of the Prophets and so to know how the words of the Prophets were to be vnderstand Then hee demaundeth Dixit Ieremias quid paleis ad triticum Vt ipse recederet a paleis upopli sui in quas illa tanta vera dicebat Did Ieremie say what hath the chaffe to doo with the corne for this end that he himselfe should depart from the chaffe of his people against which hee did vtter those so great things and the same most true Dixit Iesaias Recedite recedite exite inde immundum nolite tangere Sed cur ipse in illo populo immunditiam quam grauiter arguebat in vna cum eis congregatione tangebat Legant quanta in malos populi sui quam vehementer ac veraciter dixerit a quibus se
testimonies which also he alleageth out of many bookes both of the old and newe Testament to prooue that the Church should bee spread ouer all the kingdomes and nations of the world He answereth the places of Scriptures which they alleaged to prooue that the world at sundrie times had so fallen away from God that a verie fewe true worshippers remained and why might not they be now as those fewe He sheweth that there be innumerable testimonies to prooue that the open bad did communicate together with the good in the Sacraments and that the good were fewe in comparison of the bad so mixed with them of which after he hath cited many he commeth at the last as it were to a conclusion that al other things remooued hee would haue them shewe their Church out of the holie Scriptures and from the places which are not darke And then it followeth Quisquis ergo huic epistolae responderese praeparat ante denunciationem mihi dicat illi codices dominicos ignibus tradiderunt illi simulacris gentium sacrificauerūt illi nobis iniquissimam persecutionem fecerunt et vos eis in omnibus consensistis Breuiter enim respondeo quod saepè respondi aut falsa dicitis aut si vera sunt non ad frumenta Christi sed ad eorum paleam pertinent ista quae dicitis non inde perit ecclesia quae optimo iudicio ventilata istorum omnium separatione purgabitur That is to say Whosoeuer therefore prepareth himselfe to answere this Epistle let him before the denouncing say vnto me such deliuered the Lords bookes to the fire such sacrificed to the Idols of the Gentiles such haue persecuted vs most vniustlie and you haue consented vnto them in all things For I answer brieflie which I haue often answered either ye speake things which are false or else if they bee true that which ye speake pertaineth not to the corne of Christ but to the chaffe thereof the Church doth not perish thereby which winnowed with most perfect iudgement shall bee purged by the separation of that same chaffe He addeth Ego ipsam ecclesiā requiro vbi sit quae audiendo verba Christi faciendo aedificat super petram audiendo faciendo tolerat eos qui audiendo non faciendo aedificant super arenam Vbi sit triticum quod inter zizania crescit vsque ad messem non quid fecerint vel faciant ipsa zizania Vbi sit proxima Christi in medio filiarum malarum sicut lilium in medio spinarum non quid fecerint vel faciunt ipsae spinae Vbi sunt pisces boni qui donec ad littus perueniant tolerant pisces malos pariter irretitos non fecerint aut faciant ipsi pisces mali That is to say I seeke the Church where she is which in hearing the words of Christ and doing them doth build vpon a rocke and which hearing and doing doth tolerate those which hearing and not dooing doo build vppon the sand Where that wheate is which groweth vp among the tares vntill the haruest come not what the tares haue done or what they doo Where that spouse of Christ is in the middest of the euill daughters as the lillie among the thornes not what the thornes haue done or what they doo Where the good fishes be which vntill they come vnto the shore doo tolerate the euill fishes held in the same nette together not what the euill fishes haue done or what they doo Thus haue I laide open that the Church in olde time was full of open wicked men both of ministers and people That the Donatists vnder the colour of zeale and seueritie against sinne did separate themselues affirming that all were polluted and fallen from the couenant which did communicate in the worship of god and Sacraments with such notorious euill men All men may see by that which I haue noted that the Donatists did maintaine this their opinion with the same Scriptures and argumēts that the Brownists doe maintaine it withall nowe And receiued the same answers to confute them which we make nowe to confute the Brownists This was the maine point of Donatisme and as it were the pith substance therof it is one of the foure chiefe pillers of Brownisme Yea but now the Brownists doe separate themselues from a worship which is Idolatrous full of blasphemies and abhominations The Donatists did rend themselues from an holy and true worship Indeede where the worship is Idolatrous and blasphemous a man is to separate himselfe But there are many and great corruptions before it come to that for it is the true worship of God where the foundation is layd and standeth sure If there be timber Hay and stubble built vpon the foundation the fault is great such things are not to bee approued But yet there is Gods true worship And now to come to the verie poynt of the matter I doe affirme wil stand to iustifie that there were greater corruptions in the worship of God euen in those Churches from which the Donatists did seperate themselues than be at this day in the worship of the Church of England So that if Brownisme be any thing to be excused in that the Donatisme may as iustly therein be defended For if wee consider matters which concerne doctrine what can any man shew so corrupt in this our Church as in the publike worship to pray for the soules of the dead and to offer oblations for the dead This corruption was generall in the Church then yea long before the dayes of Augustine as it appeareth in Cyprian and by Tertullian which was before him and nerer to the time of the Apostles who in his booke De Monogamia reasoning against second mariage for hee was fallen into that error woulde perswade any woman that had buried her husband not to marie againe because he being seperated from her in peace not diuorced she was to pray for his soule and yearely to offer oblation for him thus he writeth Et pro anima eius oret refrigerium interim ad postulet ei in prima resurrectione consortium offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius That is And let her pray for his soule and craue refreshing for him nowe in the meane time and his felowship in the first resurrection and let her offer yearely vpon the day of his departure It will bee said by some ignorant man that this was but the minde and practise of some few which were corrupt and superstitious I answere it was the practise of the Church in generall and the corruption so auncient that the same Tertullian in his booke De corona militis speaking of it certain other things saith they were obserued by tradition from the Apostles they were obserued so generally in the Churches and no scripture to warrant them These bee his wordes Oblationes pro defunctis annua die facimus Wee make oblations for the dead in the yeerely day The doctrine of Purgatory
carnall wisdome loding him and the faithfull with opprobrious titles It is to no purpose that I should answer againe with words but when men shall once see throughlie into the fowlnes and dangers of Browâ—isme and what filthie geare they spread abroade they will thâ—nke it requisite and necessarie to call a spade a spade Donatisme must bee called Donatisme schisme must bee called schisme and heresies and fantasies must haue their due titles And now touching the defence he maketh it is nothing but certaine ragges which he peeceth together to couer his nakednes which also must be plucked from him It seemeth he doth trust to the ignorance or rashnes of some which either cannot or will not examine things aright God is a spirit to be worshipped in spirit I did do coÌ„fesse y t this scripture doth cut downe all carnall worship as disagreeing from the nature of God therefore may most fitlie be alleaged against such as shall maintaine that the verie bodilie action in reading is the worship of God But it is friuolous to applie it against praying after a prescript forme seeing a man may vpon a booke pray reading or after a prescript forme with sighes and groanes which procéed of faith Master Greenewood termeth this a bodilie distinction Doubtles if it be a bodilie distinction to affirme that the verie bodilie action of reading a prayer is not the worship of God which we maintaine against the Papists in their lippe labour I knowe not what Master Greenwood will allowe to bee spirituall What manner of spirit is his But now that he will put away all my distinctions by his affirming still for those bee his wordes and what Euen the whole matter in question betweene vs who cannot see what a valiant champion he is for how falselie he saith he hath prooued shall appeare Then hauing stoutlie affirmed that which is in question he saith and yet say you to applie this scripture thus against read prayer is friuolous How commeth in this word yet Doth it follow that I do not well in saying so notwithstanding you affirme the contrarie but you haue a reason of great force which is in these words I appeale to all mens consciences for the waight thereof Shall the consciences of all men bee made iudge whether that scripture bee rightlie applied Nay I appeale from the consciences of the Brownists Now in the next words where I affirmed that a man may pray by the Spirite of GOD with sighes and groanes vpon a booke or when he prayeth after a prescript forme and therefore the application of that scripture is friuolous his shiftes are as slender For touching this clause that I say or after a prescript forme he saith I goe about to alter the question at the first steppe For as much as all our prayers ought to be vttered after a prescript forme euen that perfect rule and forme our Sauiour gaue to his disciples and all posterities A great peece of work By vttering after a prescript forme I meane when a man hath learned a prayer eyther of the scripture or framed from thence and can vtter it without the booke as it is written And whereas it can not be denied but that many do pray feruentlie with sighes and grones and teares which reade the prayer vpon the booke or haue it as we vse to say by hart He answereth that I begge the question If a man do proue the cause by the effects which I doe heere it is no begging of the question but a firme proofe Where any thing is burnt there hath beene fire Where there be sighes and grones in prayer with inward comfort there is faith there is Gods spirit but these are in some that reade their prayers vpon the booke or vse prescript forme Maister Greenewood thinketh he hath disputed subtillie and couered himselfe when he can say ye alter the question ye begge the question ye assume the question Nowe touching the defence of his reasons he brought If those sighes and grones saith he were of faith that would minister matter of prayer without a booke This reason as I sayd is by connection drawne from the force and effect of faith and to make it strong and good I said these two things must be added y t faith needeth no outward helpe to minister matter of prayer and that it can not stande or be ioyned with any outward helpes which I said are both hereticall He saith he will lay the wordes againe before me if peraduenture I may haue grace to call my selfe backe I looke vpon them againe and although I did not two yeares as you vainely imagine nor yet two daies consider of that one saying yet can I not call my selfe back vnlesse I be conuinced with the light of truth and that ye say I shal be and will so confirme your sayings by scriptures that no peruerted spirit shal be able to gainesay or resist If the sighes and grones were of faith that would minister matter without a booke for the scripture ye affirme teacheth euerie where that in praying the spirit onely helpeth our infirmities no other helpes mentioned or can be collected in the present action of praier through the scripture He hath seÌ„t into our harts the spirit of his sonne crying Abba father wee beleeue therefore we speake From hence now Maister Greenewood concludeth that I haue erred and from an idle braine godles heart haue coined those heresies because I constraine the proposition of the present action in praying vnto a generall sentence of all times and actions This is the summe of your answere that before prayer there neede helpes and outward meanes but in the present action of prayer onely the spirit doth helpe let vs see howe true this is and how it dooth excuse yee from those hereticall opinions which ye goe about to wipe away with this distinction First whereas yee say that in the verie time and action of prayer it is the spirit alone without any outward means because the scripture saith God hath sent into our heartes the spirit of his sonne crying abba Father I answere that howsoeuer the scripture doth extoll or magnifie outwarde helpes and meanes yet when they are compared with God which worketh all in all by them or when the scripture will set foorth the efficacie and worke to be his alone they are either not meÌ„tioned or else if they be meÌ„tioned so cast down as if they were nothing God buildeth his Church by the ministerie of men yet he saith Paule planteth Appollo watereth but God giueth y e increase So that neither he which plaÌ„teth is any thing nor he that watreth but God that giueth the increase 1. Co. 3. And therfore to gather froÌ„ those sentences of scripture where the spirit of God is only mentioned to work praier because the work is his alone y t there neede or there may be no outward helps or meanes in the verie instant and action of praying is farre awrie For I would haue master
there were three Arguments of Maister Greenewoods which I answered at once by denying the assumptions and shewing the reasons that moueth me for in déede he setteth downe some propositions and out of them affirmeth that which is false and so concludeth from thence another falsehood It is his whole manner of reasoning if I set downe this proposition God is a spirit it is most true if I will now make such an assumption as this a bodelie substance cannot worship a spirite this being most false there will followe a false conclusion which is that no man can worship God in bodie he is now therefore to proue his assumptions and before he commeth to it he crieth out stay and wonder they are blinde and make blinde Who be blinde and make blinde the Brownists This man hath some great thing in his minde which hee séeth and dooth wonder and now calleth vpon all other to stay vntill hee hath vttered it and so to wonder with him Is there anie doctrine more spirituall saieth hee any more inculcated by the holie Ghost then this accesse to God in the mediation of Christ c. I answer who dooth doubt of this You confesse I will say the propositions bee true and waightie matters which I doo in deed and thereby doo acknowledge that praier is a spirituall and Heauenlie thing farre from the power of man to performe of himselfe Now Master Greenewood confessing I doo this like as a great waue of the Sea commeth rowling and dooth in shâ—w threaten to ouerwhelme all but sodainelie falleth of it selfe So he swelling with the winde of his vanitie crieth out stay and wonder as if I should be ouer whelmed with the streame of his words and by and by falleth of himselfe confessing that I allow the propositions which in déede include the excellencie of praier and there is an end of his wonder The first assumption hee must prooue is that to reade vpon the booke when one prayeth is a quenching the spirite for this he alleageth the saying of Saint Paul Quench not the Spirite when he hath set downe this he addeth that to suppresse and leaue vnuttered the passions of our own heart by the work of the Spirite giuing vs cause of praier and in steed thereof to reade another mans writing he dooth not doubt will be founde and iudged of all that haue spirituall eyes to see a quenching of that grace I answer to this that the spéeches of the Scripture are most fit to vtter our passions by And what haue yee brought but the matter in question If wee respect such as be not able so well to vtter the spirituall eyes to sée and iudge that to bee a quenching of the Spirite are but the eyes of Brownists Therefore all his beggarlie cauils which follow and which haue been answered before are to be let passe as they come The second assumption to bee prooued is that it is presumptuous ignorance to come with a booke This is a lame sacrifice because a man dooth knowe how to doe better and doth not stil he would haue that graunted which is denied For I say the booke is to helpe men to doo the better which are in themselues dull and full of wants and without helpe should rather offer a lame sacrifice The third is for striuing in praier for which when hee hath spoken much of this striuing which is not denied for continuance and importunacie he imagineth that the whole matter is prooued for this as hee would make vs beléeue cannot bee effected vnles the Priest reade till he sweate againe with vaine repetitions I might followe with many words in these and the rest but séeing he hath confessed that the Psalmes were to bee sung vnto God let him shew how the verie reading then can bée so grieuous a thing for this the reader must consider that our question is not about the matter of prayer nor any corruption by vaine repetitions or otherwise nor about the hypocrisie and vaine babling of such as pray but of fashion but simplie of the reading when one prayeth which vntill he can prooue that diuers Psalmes either were not vttered to God as praier or that they did not reade them when they did sing he prooueth nothing but deceiueth the simple with the sight of true things which he spreadeth and from which he draweth foorth such false conclusions I leaue to the reader but to compare his answeres he maketh to the rest touching these arguments and see if they make any thing for uim and not rather against him The next Argument is that We must pray as necessitie requireth but stinted praiers cannot be as necessitie requireth Whereas I affirmed that there be things necessarie to be prayed for at all times and of all men which indéed are the most things which wée are to begge of the Lord. Of these there may bee prescript formes for all times and for other things that fall out sildome the praier is to be applied to the time and necessitie Here are large discourses and such as this Replier dooth much please himselfe in as a most spiritual man This I take to be the drift of the whole that in praying to GOD wee must come with féeling our wants that so we may pray earnestlie which I doo yéeld vnto as an vndoubted trueth He holdeth it as a great absurditie that we should want the same thing to morrow which wee doo to day or that all congregations should néed the same one day which they doo another Hee is most foolish in this and such like obiections for if I should stand to followe particulars there bee fewe things which we may not either for our selues or for our brethren at all assemblies begge of the Lord. If there be speciall necessities they are to be supplied The matter is cléere I will not spend time about it more than I haue in my former booke But whereas the Brownist doth obiect that a prescript forme doth shewe that men take vpon them to knowe mens secrets which God alone doth knowe it is most vaine and friuolous The Scriptures doo shewe that we all stand in neede of the same thinges and euermore being sicke of one disease though there may be some particular cases wherein some haue their seuerall neede And let him answer me now vnto this poynt There be fiue or sixe hundred in one flock which come together to pray if it be as you would beare vs in hand that there is such a variablenes in our needes that to day our necessitie requireth one thing to morrowe another then euery particular man and woman hath seuerall wants and is to pray for no more than they come with present feeling off how then shall the Minister frame his praier to fit them all One shall say this pertaineth not to me how shall I pray Another shall say this or that toucheth not my estate Many shal complaine that their seueral wants are not touched Tell me Ma. Greenwood or any Brownist doth