that the Apostles taught none other faith in steede of true Christiantie but that which we hold as we are readie to proue by the worde of God And at this daye the most parte of Europe is conuerted from Idolatrie heresie and Antichristianitie vnto the same true faith that we mainteine as in England Scotland Ireland France Germany Denmarke Suetia Bohemia Polonia by publike authoritie in Spaigne and Italie a great numbre vnder persecution and tyrannie Also of the Iewes no small numbre are conuerted to our religion since the rising vp of the Gospell in our dayes 3 Or any Church but the common Catholike Church to haue don that and I recant BEcause you meane by the common Catholike not the true Catholike but the popish church First I denie that euer the popish church conuerted any people to the true faith Secondly I denie that the popish church hath conuerted all nations to the profession of Christ For it is shewed before that the false Apostles and Arians conuerted some nations to the profession of Christes name but yet to false religion And it is also manifest by histories that the Grecians whome the papistes counte no parte of their church but schismatikes conuerted the Moscouites first of all vnto the profession of the name of Christ which yet continue in their religion being neither the true faith nor yet popish religion As for the popish church as it is certeine that it hath peruerted and corrupted all partes of the Latine or Westerne Church with Idolatry and false religion so it shal be harde for the papistes to proue that it hath conuerted any Nation from Gentility to the popish religion except some partes of Germanie and them by force of armes rather than by preaching and teaching as appeareth by the conuersion of Liuonia Anno Domini 1200. of Prussia Anno Domini 1254. and of Lithuania Anno Domini 1386. wherefore I conclude that seeing I haue shewed that our Church holding the true doctrine of the Apostles is that which conuerted all nations to true religion and that the popish church hath not conuerted any people to true religion nor all people to the profession of the name of Christ this chalenger whosoeuer he be do the recant The second article conteyneth 4. demandes 1 I aske of him what Church it was which hath induced the Christian people through the whole worlde to geue most humble credit in all points to the holy bookes of the Byble I Aunswere it was the Church of Christ and not the Popish church which hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleued of all true Christians where soeuer they be although it be the office of the holy Ghost to open the hartes of men and to forme them that they may beleue the scripture to be true like as it is the office of the scripture or worde of God to trie and examine whether it be the spirite of God that perswadeth vs to beleue any thing so the spirite beareth witnesse to the worde and the worde to the spirite As for the popish church it coulde not induce the Christian people to geue credit to the scripture in all pointes because she is contrarie to the scripture in many pointes and euen in the cheefest pointes of Christian Religion namely in pointes concerning the glorie of God and the saluation of mankinde geuing the glory of God to dead men and dumbe Images and denying the mercy of God pourchased by the onely sacrifice of Christes death to be the onely cause of mans saluation Finally seeing it is manifest by the aunswere to the first article that the popish church did not conuerte all nations to the profession of the Christian faith it is euident thereby that the popish church did not induce all them that are called Christians to geue credit to the bookes of the holy Bible as this chalenger woulde haue it to be thought 2 VVhat Church hath had the discerning seuering of them from other writinges of all sortes THe Church of Christ hath not an absolute authority to allow or refuse bookes of the scripture but a iudgment to discerne true writinge from counterfaicts the word of God of infallible verity from the writing of men which might erre this iudgement she hath not of her selfe but of the holy Ghost as for the popish Church it can not be said to haue this iudgemēt of discerning the scripture of God from other writings not only because she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene the Canonical bookes of the scripture from the Apocrypha writings as appereth by receauing the bookes of the Machabees Ecclesiasticus c. to be of equall authoritie with the bookes of the Law Psalmes c. but also because she is so presumptuous as to compel men to beleue that Customes and traditions writinges of doctors decrees of Popes and Councells are equall with the authoritie of God his worde yea are of force to alter and change the lawe of God and the institution of Christ set forth vnto vs in the scripture And although she boast that she receaueth all the bookes of scripture yet this proueth no more that she is the Church of Christ than was the churches of the Arrians Donatistes Nouatians Euthychans other heretikes which receiued the Bible as well as the Popish church 3 VVhat Church hath had the custodie of them and most safely hath preserued them for the necessary vse of God his people and from the corruption of aduersaries as well of Iewes as heretikes of all sortes THe prouidence of God hath alwayes preserued the Scripture both from the violence of tyrants from the falshoode of heretikes and hath neuer suffred the true Church to be destitute of the necessarie vse thereof But the popish church hath not kept the scripture for the necessary vse of the people which hath so kept it in an vnknowen tongue that the people coulde haue no vse much lesse the necessary vse thereof wherefore if this be a note of the Catholike Church to kepe the worde of God for the necessarie vse of God his people it is plaine that the popish church is not the Catholike Church which hath kept the scripture so that God his people coulde haue no vse thereof And if the only custodie of the scripture from corruption of heretikes be a sure note of the Church why is not the Greeke Church the Catholike Church which vnto this day hath kept the scripture as safely as the popish church why are not other Estern Churches of Asia which neuer acknowledged the Pope or popish religion true Churches which likewise haue preserued the scripture as we haue seen of late that the newe Testament is printed in the Syrian tongue at themperours charges for the encrease of Christian faith among them And finally why are not the Iewes the Catholike Church which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue more faithfully than euer the Papistes And because they boast of safe preseruing of the scriptures
rather to seeke her in his words which is the Truth and best knoweth his owne body So the question is at this daye betwen the Papistes and vs where the church is let vs seeke in God his worde there we shall easily finde her To the same intent he speaketh in the third fiueth and sixtenth Chapters of the same treatise Furthermore that he woulde haue heretikes confuted onely by the scriptures he sheweth likewise in many places of his workes for writing against Maximinus the Arian lib. 3. cap. 14. a place commonly and often cited he sayeth but nowe neither must I preiudicially bring forthe the Councell of Nice nor then the Councell of Arimine for neither am I bounden to the authoritie of the one nor you of the other but let matter with matter cause with cause reason with reason contend by authoritie of the scriptures not proper to any but indifferent witnesses to both partes If Augustine would not oppresse the Arrians by the authoritie of the Nicene Councell which was the first and the best generall Councell that euer was but only by the scriptures how much lesse woulde he charge them with other authorities that the Papistes alleage beside the authoritie of holy scriptures And in his booke De Vnitate Ecclesiae against the Donatistes the 16 chapter Sed vtrū ipsi Ecclesiam teneant non nisi diuinarum scripturarum Canonicis libris ostendant quia nec nos c. But whether they holde the church or no let them shew none other wise but by the canonicall bookes of holy Scripture for we our selues doe not say that men ought to beleue vs that we are in the Church because we holde that Church which Optatus of Mileuitum or Ambrose of Millayn or innumerable other Byshops of our communion haue commended to vs or because it is set forth by the Councels of our felowe byshops or because so many myracles of hearing requests or healinges are don in the holy places which our fellowship doth frequent in the whole worlde so that the bodies of Martyrs which were hidden so many yeares which thinge if they will aske they may heare of many were reuealed vnto Ambrose and that at the same bodies one that had bene many yeares blinde very well knowen in the citie of Millayn receyued his eyes and eye sight either because this man dreamed or that man was rauished in the spirite and hearde a voice that he should not ioyne himselfe to Donatus or that he shoulde departe from the faction of Donatus for when soeuer such thinges are don in the Catholike Church they are to be allowed because they are don in the Catholike church but the church it selfe is not therfore proued to be Catholike because these thinges are done in it By this Augustine declareth first that heretikes must be confuted onely by the scriptures and secondly that neither Councells succession of byshops vniuersality miracles visions dreames nor reuelations are the notes to trie the Catholike church but onely the scriptures Moreouer in his booke De Pastoribus cap. 14. Quaerit infirmus Ecclesiam c. A weake person seeketh the Church he wandreth and seeketh the church what sayest you The church is of Donatus side Enquire for the shepheards voice Reade me this out of some Prophet reade me this out of some Psalme rehearse me it out of the lawe rehearse it out of the Gospell rehearse it out of the Apostle out of them do I rehearse the Church dispersed ouer all the worlde And a litle after Tu accusas non Euangelium c. Thou accusest not the Gospell thou accusest not the Prophet not the Apostle of whome this voyce speaketh to me I beleue him other I beleue not But thou wilt bring forth decrees I will also bring forth decrees shoulde I beleue thine beleue thou mine likewise I beleue not thine neither do thou beleue mine then let mens writings be layd away and let Gods worde sounde betwen vs bring me one place of scripture for Donatus side c. These places maye sufficiently declare by what meanes this doctor thought the Church shoulde ouerthrowe heresies namely by the worde of God onely which thing also Leo the first byshop of Rome in his epist. 10. ad Fabianum contra Eutychen plainely confesseth saying Sed in hanc insipientiam cadunt qui cum ad cognoscendam veritatem c. But those men fal into this foly which when they are hindred by any doubt to knowe the trueth haue not recourse to the voyces of the Prophets not to the writings of the Apostles not to the authoritie of the Gospell but to them selues And therefore they become maisters of error because they haue not bene schollers of trueth Of the same iudgement was the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt as appeare Actione 18. Si igitur omnes simpliciter c. Therefore if all men from the beginning woulde haue simply and without subtiltie taken vpon them the preaching of the Gospell and haue bene content with the constitutions of the Apostles suerly matters shoulde haue bene well and in good case neither shoulde painefull contention haue bene exercised against the authors of heresies nor against the fauorers of priests Here the Councell confesseth that the heretikes and schismatikes grow so fast because they were not beaten downe by preaching of the Gospell and authority of the scriptures Thus I haue declared by example and authority of these Fathers that the true Church of Christ hath conuicted all heretikes onely by the scripture 2 And what Church it was that hath alwayes stande still and stedfast whilest all other Congregations as well of Arrians as Anabaptistes Aerians Nouatians Vigilantians Iouinians and the rest haue decaied THe true Church of Christ hath alwayes stoode stedfast and vnseparable from Christ her heade when all heretikes haue bene and shal be confounded But the true Church hath not alwaies florished in wordly peace and tranquilitie for vntill the tyme of Constantine the great which was Anno Dom. 339. the Church had small rest from cruell persecution in most places and soone after againe vnder the Emperors Constantius Constans and Valons it was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius what time also Tiberius Bishop of Rome was infected with the same heresie After that when Iulianus the Apostata was Emperor the temples of Idolls were opened and gentilitie againe restored so that the Church suffered great detriment To be short when the barbarous Goathes Vandales Alanes and other Idolatrous or heretical nations destroyed the Empire the Church of God suffered a great Ecclipse But when Mahomet in the East Antichrist the Pope in the West seduced the world with most detestable heresie then was fulfilled that which was reuealed to S. Iohn in the 12. of the Apocalyps the woman clothed with the Sonne which you your self confesse to be the Church was so persecuted by the Dragon that she fled into the wildernes there to remaine a long season Where she hath not decayed but ben always
weake and beggarly elementes because they are destitute of God his worde which onely is able to geue them strength and estimation as for your festiuities in the honour of creatures we doe likewise abhorre them we honour the Sainctes as S. Augustine sayeth for imitation but we do not worship them for Religion De vera Religione cap. 55. Where he also saith Quare honoramus eos charitate non seruitute We honor them with loue and not with seruice And as he doth often affirme that it is Idolatry to builde churches in the honour of Sainctes so is it as great Idolatry to institute festiuall dayes in the fauour of the same Sainctes As for the festiuall dayes that were vsed in the primitiue Church although they might haue bene omitted without any hurt of Christian Religion yet were they not kept in the honour of creatures as they are of the Papistes but only for the memorie of the Martyrs and other Saincts that their good life might be followed Your fastes are also abhominable for they are nothing else but abstinence from meates created of God to be receiued with thankesgeuing which S. Paule affirmeth to be the doctrine of Diuells 1. Tim. 4. Also your distinctions and varieties of seruice because they consiste most of blasphemous prayers to dead Sainctes and sometimes to damned spirites with foolish lessons responses versicles c. Lewde lies and vncertaine tales which you reade and sing as God his seruice they are all abhominable In vaine do they worship me saith our Sauiour Christ teaching for doctrine the preceptes of men Math. 15. Also it was decreed in the Councell of Laodicea the 59. chapter that nothing should be song or reade in the Church but the Canonicall bookes of holy Scripture wherefore if you demande whence your ceremonies festiuall dayes fastes and varieties of seruice did proceede I aunswere plainely out of the bottomles pit of hell 2 From whence did all thinges yet indifferently for most part obserued and allowed on both sides from whence did they proceede IF you had vttered what thinges you meane that are so indifferently allowed on both sides we might better haue aunswered but seeing you haue not we must coniecture what you meane if you meane any thinge that is allowed without controuersie on both sides it did either proceede from the scripture of God or from the primitiue Church or else it a thing meerely indifferent but if it haue no grounde in holy Scripture nor example of the primitiue Church nor iudged meerely indifferent it not indifferently obserued for the most parte nor yet allowed on both sides 2 And if it can be proued that the Protestants Congregation or any other Church but ours hath instituted and ordered all these or any of these for the comelinesse and honour of God his house I recant I Haue aunswered before that the Protestants Congregation geueth you leaue to bragge that you are the inuentors of all these Idolatrous superstitions false worshipping of God and yet because you offer so liberally to recant if it can be proued that any Church but yours hath instituted and ordered all these thinges you shall he are what can be saide First your great doctor Durande plainely affirmeth that many of your ceremonies and solemnities had not their first institution of your church but were taken of the Iewes or Gentiles And it may easily be proued that many of your ceremonies were instituted of heretikes as your holy water which you say you vse to put men in minde of their baptisme was deriued of the heretikes called Hemerobaptistae which were baptized euery daye Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 1. cap. 17. Of the Ossenes you tooke the great estimation of water salt oyle breade c. and vse to sweare by them as they did Epiph. contra Ossenes 19. Of the same heretikes you receiued the superstition of reliques for they vsed to take the spittle and other filth from the bodies of Marthys and Marthana which were of the seede of Elxai that is great Sainctes with them and vsed them to cure diseases as Erasmus witnesseth at Canterbury were kept the clowtes that Thomas Becket did occupy to wipe of his sweate and to blow his nose on which were kissed as holy reliques and thought also to be holsom for sicke folkes of the same heretikes you learned to commande the people to pray in an vnknowene tongue as Elxai the great Pope of those heretikes sayde Nemo quaerat interpretationem sed solum in oratione haec dicat Let no man seeke the interpretation but onely saye these wordes in his prayer Which wordes were in a strange tong either the Hebrue or the Arabike Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 1. haeres 19. Likewise the Marcosians when they baptized vsed to speake certaine Hebrue wordes that the ignorant people might maruell the more at them as you doe in Baptisme Ephata c. Epiph. lib. 1. Tom. 3. haer 34. To make the Images of Christ and of the Apostles and to sense them you learned of the heretikes called Gnostici and CarpocratirÄ™ Epip lib. 1. Tom. 2. in the preface Epiph. lib. 1. Tom. 2. haer 27. and Irenaeus lib. 1. cap. 23. Of the Valentinians you learned to haue in price the signe of the crosse and to abuse the places of scripture for the same superstitious vse as God forbidde that I shoulde reioice but in the crosse of Christ c. Irenaeus lib. 1. cap. 1. Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 2. haeres 31. Of the Heracleonites you learned to annoynte men at the point of death with oyle and balme and to cast water vpon dead men with inuocations Epiph. lib. 1. Tom. 3. haeres 36. Of the Cayanes you learned to call vpon Angels Epiph. lib. 1. Tom. 3. haeres 38. Of the Marcionistes you learned to giue women leaue to baptize Ep. lib. 1. Tom. Haer. 42. George Bishop of Alexandria inuented beares to carry deade corpses charging all men to vse them for his owne aduantage as doe you Papistes your bearing clothes other toyes for funerall pompes Ep. lib. 3. Tom. 1. Haer. 76. Of the Colliridianes you learned to make images of the virgine Marie worship them her with offering of candells c. as they did of cakes c. Ep. lib. 3. Haer. 79. Of the Messalians or Martirians you learned to shaue your beardes and to let your lockes grow long Ep. lib. 3. Haer. 80. Of the Pharizees you receaued your superstitious masking garments which you call amictus dalmaticus and pallia as witnesseth Epiphanius in his epistle to Acacius and Paulus Last of all what say you to the ceremonies festiuities fastes and solemnities vsed in the Greeke Church and in the other Oriental Churches if they be sufficient to make their church Catholike why doe you count them heretikes and Schismatikes if they be not sufficient why doe you reason of the institution of the like to proue your Church Catholike You see that proued which you desired play the honest man therfore and recant
succession according to persons or places you are neuer able to proue that any such thing was promised to the Church that we should shew you the performance there of in our Church Otherwise we doubt not but God hath alway stirred vp some faithfull teachers that haue instructed his Church in the necessarie poinctes of Christian Religion Although the worlde and the church of Antichrist did not alwayes see them 2 And is able to name you by the histories of all ages the notable personnes of all the forsaide states in their gouernment and ministerie A Gaine I answere you that you are not able to name me any text of scripture by which you can proue that al these offices must haue perpetual cōtinuance in the church of Christ nor yet that any of them should kepe an ordinarie succession of place or persons But contrariwise seeing it was prophecied that the church should flie into the wildernes that is be driuen out of the sight and knowledge of the wicked and be so narrowly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a longe season it were a token our church were not the true church if we could name such notable persons as you speake of in all ages florishing in their gouernment and ministerie And it is a good argument that the Popish church is not the church of Christe because it was neuer hidden sence it first sprang vp in so much that you can name all the notable persons in all ages in their gouernment and ministerie and especially the succession of Popes you can reherse in order vpon your fingers in which beadroole neuerthelesse you must name many tyrants many traytors one whore many whoremongers many Sodomites many murtherers many poysenors many sorcerers and Necromancers and from Boniface the third all blasphemous heretikes and Antichristes But our church which hath not had so many registers chroniclers and remembrancers hath perhaps fewer but yet honester men to name we can name Peter Paule Mathew Iohn c. Marke Luke Timothe Agabus Epaphras c. Instinus Irenaeus Cyprianus Athanasius Hylarius Ambrosius Augustinus c. Gyldas Bertramus Marsilius de Padua Ioan. de Ganduno Bruno Andagauensis VVickleue Iohn Hus Hierome of Prage c. With the first namely Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets we consent wholly in all pointes of doctrine with the rest in the cheefe and most substantiall articles of faith alwayes agreeing with any man so farre as he agreeth with the worde of God. 3 And if he can proue vnto me that their Church hath neuer lacked the same appointed officers or that any Church or Congregatiō but ours hath kept that charge thē I recant FOr some of those officers I haue twise aunswered before that they were not ordeined to continue alwaies with the church wherefore they are not to be exacted of vs but such officers as are necessary for the conseruation of God his people in the vnitie of faith and the knowledge of Christ our Church hath neuer lacked although in time of the great defection and Apostasie whereof S. Paule doth prophesie 2. thess. 2. there were but few as there were but fewe members of Christ his Church notwithstanding that through iniurie of the time the remembraunce of all their names is not come vnto vs And although we could rehearse in order as many successions in our Church as the papistes boast of in theirs yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ which must be tried onely by the Scriptures as S. Augustine sayth in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae against the Donatistes cap. 16. Sed vtrum ipsi Ecclesiam teneant non nisi diuinarum Scripturarum canonicis libris ostendant quia nec nos propterea dicimus nobis credere oportere quod Ecclesiae sumus quia ipsam quam tenemus commendauit Mileuitanus Optatus vel Mediolanensis Ambrosius vel alij innumerabiles nostrae communionis Episcopi c. But whether they holde the Church or no let them shew none otherwise but by the canonicall bookes of holy Scripture for we our selues doe not therefore say that men must beleeue vs that we are in the Church because we hold the same Churche which Optatus of Mileuitum hath commended or Ambrose of Millayn or innumerable Bishops of our communion Euen so we require at the Papistes handes that shewe them selues to holde the Church not by succession of Bishops or rehearsing of their names but onely by the Scriptures for although we did rehearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly succession on our side we would not require men to beleue vs but onely because we proue the doctrine of our Church by the authoritie of the Scriptures But as for the popish church neyther hath nor euer had any of those officers which S. Paule speaketh of for Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets she can chalenge by no reason seing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writings in steede of pastors reachers she hath wolues dūme dogges or false prophets which either teach not at all or else teach the doctrine of deuills the dreames of men And further I would desire none other place in all the Scripture to ouerthrow the popish Hierarchie which is the greatest glory of their Church then this place of Paule Ephes 4. he speaketh of Apostles Euangelists Prophets Pastors and teachers But where are Popes Cardinalls popish archbishops Bishops Preestes Deacōs Subdeacons Exorcistes Cantors Acolyts Ostiares Monkes Friars Chanōs Nunnes c. Wherfore I cōclude that all these popish orders are no offices in the Church of Christ And especially seeing the Apostle both in this place Eph. 4. and 1. Cor. 12. by these offices proueth the vnitie of minde he acknowledgeth no Pope as one supreme head in earth which might be very profitable as the Papists say to mainteine this vnity for if there had bene any such office appoynted of God S. Paule in no wise woulde haue omitted it especially when it made so notably for the confirmation of his purpose which was vnitie To conclude if it be sufficient or any thing worth to rehearse the names of them that haue orderly succeded in all ages in the bishops sees in an outwarde face of the Church the Greeke Church is able to name as many as the Latine Church and in as orderly succession Wherefore if you be as ready to performe as to promise you recant The nynth article may be deuided into nyne demaundes 1 And for the necessary vse and execution of the foresayd offices they must further be asked what Sacramentes the Protestants ministred for the space of a thousand yeares togither in which they confesse their congregations to haue bene neare or else wholy hidden THey ministred those Sacramentes which Christ did institute namely the Sacrament of baptisme and the Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ at such times as the cruell tyrannie of you Papistes did not hinder them to come togither for such purposes 2 VVhat correction they kept and discipline
AN ANSVVER OF A TRVE CHRISTIAN TO THE PROVDE CHALLENGE OF A counterfet Catholike By VVilliam Fulke Doctor in diuinitie Imprinted at London by Thomas Vautrollier dwelling in the Blacke Friers 1577. To the Christian Reader THIS short treatise gentle Reader hath lyen by me neare hand or altogether tenne yeres space vvritten at the request of a godly learned friend of myne in aunsvver to a proud challenge of a Papist against the Protestant VVhich though at the first and many yeares after I determined not to publish supposing the same challeÌ„ge to haue ben priuate or in fevve mens handes yet novv of late that I haue seene it in diuerse godly gentlemens handes to vvhom it hath bene deliuered by Papistes belike to peruert them and of vvhom also I haue bene desired to auÌ„svver it and am further credibly informed that the same is in print esteemed of many ignorant Papistes to be so vnansvverable that although it hath bin protested by gentlemen of great vvorship and credit that they haue seene the auÌ„svvere therof in vvriting yet they vvil not beleue that any man dare set his penne to the paper once to attempte the matter I haue novve thought good to put it in print as it vvas vvritteÌ„ at the first Nothing douting by Gods help but I shall be able to stand to the defence if the Challenger vvill proceede to mainteyne his challenge any longer And vvhereas the same of late hath bene ioyned vvith my confutation of the doctrine of purgatory and yet is desired of many to be set forth in seuerall because the argument is more generall it is thought good to satisfie their desire to spare their exspenses that being resolued in the matter of purgatory doe yet stagger in the challenge of the Church The breuity that I haue vsed as I vnderstand is misliked of some men vvhich vvoulde haue vvished a larger discourse but seeing the Challenger requireth shortnes if this that is vsed be sufficient to satisfie his demaunds or any of them a longer treatise vvere but superfluous If he thinke him selfe not throughly aunsvvered declare the same in all or in part that vvhich is novve omitted shall then God vvilling be supplied In the meane time vse this gentle Reader and fare vvell in the Lorde The faultes of this impression are thus to be amended The first figure signifieth the page the second the line Pag. 3. line 35. Lithuania reade Lithuanda 5.3 vvriting r. vvritinges 10.10 the scripture reade the booke of scripture 13.17 then reade thou and line 19. you reade thou 15. line the laste Tâ—â—erius reade Liberius 19.4 you reade the and line 10. Ca. line 58. reade Carolines 8. and line 19. Mercamas r. Marranias 22.9 fauour reade honor â—3 26 the prince reade the printers 24.1 put out and. 25.9 not for his r. for his 29.10 vnitie of minde r. vnitie of faith minde 30.3 in the places aboue rehearsed in diuerse places of his epistles a. lib. 3. epist. 14. and 15.16 c. 41.30 Rhenes r. Rhemes 49.5 the the r. that the. the 12. r. the Catho c. 52.13 in Brytish reade in the Brytish 63.14 about the articles r. about the chiefest articles 64.20 put out that hilde and the 24. here rea sore 67.21 vvhich can not rea vvhich you can not 68.4 in a name reade in a manner 69.4 prorsus opinemur r. prorsus non opinemur and 34. vniuersally r. vniuersalitie and 36 vvhich you do r. vvhich you do not 70.17 proponeÌ„da r. praeponeÌ„da 22. in a r. in the. 24. vvhen r. vvheÌ„ the. 71.20 vvhere rÄ™a vvere and the 22. to reade in 78.26 that you savv a bastard church r. that you being a bastard church haue 87.34 Commentualls rea Conuentualles 91.32 that he rea then he 92.30 cultiued r. coÌ„tinued 97. â— your reade youres 99.13 there rea therefore 14. vinci reade vâ—icè AN ANSVVER OF A TRVE CHRISTIAN TO A COVNTERFAIT CATHOLIKE The proposition of the Aduersarie CHrist did commit at his departure hence the testimony of that truth for which he died and the conuersion of the Nations to the beleefe in him to the true church of God which then stoode principally and almost onely in the persons of the Apostles and a fewe more that by their preachings and those afterward of their calling the Christian religion might be planted in all Nations beginning at Ierusalem and so proceeding to the coastes and corners of the earth AN ANSVVERE TO THE PROPOSITION I Graunt that our Sauiour Christ at his departure hence commaunded his Apostles as principal members of his Church though not the greatest part of it to preach the doctrine which he confirmed by his death vnto all nations beginning at Ierusalem and so forth according to his saying Goe therefore and teach all Nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost Teaching them to obserue all thinges what so euer I haue commaunded you Matth. 28. Whereuppon I chalenge the Papist that if he be able to proue that the doctrine of poperie is all that trueth and nothing but that trueth for which Christ dyed and which he commaunded the Apostles to teach I will acknowledge the popish church to be the Church of Christ The first article conteyneth 3. demandes 1 First I aske of the protestant what Church that was which conuerted all these cuntries that be now Christian to the faith of Christ IF you meane by Christians true Christians and by the faith of Christ the true faith of Christ I answere only the true Church of Christ hath had the worde of God and sacraments as meanes which God vseth to subdue al nations vnto the obedience of the faith as was the primitiue Church of the Apostles which hath continued vnto this daye by succession not of personnes and places but of faith and truth wherefore if the Papist can proue that we holde not the same faith and trueth vnto which the Apostles conuerted the nations we refuse to be called the Church or Congregation of Christ But if by Christians and Christian faith you meane all them that professe the name of Christ in the whole worlde I aunswere that the true Church of Christ did not conuert them all for in Aethiopia there are yet people conuerted by the false apostles which taught circumcision and obseruation of the lawe in which heresie they continue vnto this day and it is manifest by all histories that the nations of the Alanes Gothes and Vandales were first conuerted by the Arrians 2 And let him shew vnto me that euer his Church conuerted any people or lande in the earth from Idolatrie or Gentility or Iudaisme to the true Religion of Christ or that this his fayth was taught to any Nation in steede of true Christianity VVE are members of that Church which conuerted all landes in the earth that are conuerted from Idolatry Gentility Iudaisme or heresie to the true Religion of Christ and we affirme
purpose because the gouernment of the Byshop of Rome is most misliked of them and yet most notoriously knowne by euery historie let them name the Pope that first brake of the course of his forefathers beleefe regiment in any article of fayth or necessary Christian vsage and I recant I Haue named before Victor which was the first that went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches Also I haue named Boniface the third which was the first that chalenged to be vniuersall bishop For Gregorie the great sayeth Nemo meorum decessorum hoc prophano vocabulo vti voluit That is None of my predecessors woulde vse this prophane worde The same Gregorie as Hulderichus bishop of Auspourge doth testifie was the first that compelled priests to liue vnmaried which afterwarde when he saw the inconuenience he reuoked Thus hauing named diuers Popes that first brake the course of their fathers faith and regiment c. and more coulde rehearse but for auoyding prolixitie I chalenge your promise that you must recant The 12. article hath 3. demandes 1 Item I aske what kinde and order of seruice or common prayer what waye of ministring of the sacraments your Church had before Papistry as you call it did preuaile in the worlde IVstinus Martyr in his second Apollogie to the Emperour declareth plainely what order of seruice and ministration of sacramentes our Church had before Papistry preuayled On the daye called Sonday sayth he there is a meeting together of all them that dwell in the Citie or in the countrie and the monumentes of the Apostles or the writinges of the Prophetes are reade vntill it be thought sufficient when the reader hath made an ende he that is our ouerseer or cheefe minister maketh a sermon of admonition and exhortation to follow those good thinges that are reade After this we all stande vp together and make our prayers and as we haue saide before when our prayers are ended there is brought forth bread and wine water and the cheefe minister doth likewise with all his might yelde prayers and thankesgeuing and the people aunswereth Amen Then is made distribution to euery one and receyuing of those thinges for which thankes was geuen and to them that be absent it is sent by the deacons Such as are riche and willing doe geue almes what they will c. By this one authoritie it may be seene though other might be brought what order of seruice and ministration of sacraments our Church vsed before Papistry gat the vpper hande 2 Shew one booke of Communion or what els you list that was in English or lacked prayer for the departed or inuocation of Sainctes in heauen or that wanted oblation or sacrifice or that charged a number to receyue or els that the preest coulde not consecrate nor say Masse himselfe or shew any note in a Communion booke that the people shoulde take the sacrament for plaine breade or that they should geue no honor to it shew this booke or any leafe or line of this booke IT may trouble a wise man to aunswere all the questions that a foole can propounde you requier to see a booke of Communion in English or that lacked c. When it is confessed that the English nation receiued their religion first from Rome at such time as Religion there was verie corrupt what marueill is it if we can not shewe you such a Communion booke as you require but we can easily shew you out of the scripture the the Communion ought to be ministred in the vulgare tongue that prayer for the deade and to the deade ought not to be vsed that the sacrament ought not to be turned into a sacrifice that there ought to be a communiō of many receauers and not a priuate masse that the substance of the bread is not changed that the elementes of the sacrament are not to be honored these I say we can proue out of the worde of God the Catholike writers of the olde Church And though perchaunce it wil be harde to finde a communion booke in English yet haue I founde you a canon of the Laterane Councell that it ought to haue bene translated into English yet are there founde diuers monumentes of Antiquitie as Prayers Psalmes and Homilies c. in the olde English or Saxons tongue in which the reall presence transubstantiation and other poinctes of Popish doctrine are plainly confuted There may be shewed you also Bybles both the olde Testament and New in the English tongue of diuers translations in olde written hande Also great bookes of English homilies inueighing directly against the Pope and all Popish doctrine in olde English written hande with diuers other small treatises and pamphlets of like matters if these woulde do you any good you might haue the sight of them when you please 3 Or any Church or Congregation that euer had any Authenticall seruice but ours and I recant THe Church of the Brytannes before Augustine came in with Romish seruice had they not trow you Authenticall seruice which continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time The Grecians also Orientall churches haue they not vnto this day their Authenticall seruice which is not yours If you can not deny this you should recant The 13. article hath 2. demaundes 1 Furthermore I requier to know what shoulde be the cause that the Protestants themselues doe receiue all Byshops Priestes Deacons and other officers spirituall of all sortes of our Catholike church and doe admit them as men lawfully and sufficiently ordered both to preach minister sacraments and to exercise spirituall iurisdiction no lesse but rather more than if they were of their owne ordering where we of the Catholike church doe not acknowledge any man of their calling to be any whit more fitte for any spirituall function than other lay men ALthough all godly men wishe more seueritie of discipline to be vsed in receyuing them that come out of heresies to serue in the Church than is commonly practised in England yet you are highlie deceyued if you thinke we esteeme your offices of Bishops priests deacōs any better than the state of lay men but farre worse for we iudge them to be nothing els but Antichristianitie heresie and blasphemie And therefore we receiue none of them to minister in our church except they forsweare your religion And so their admission is not an allowing of your ordering but a new calling vnto the ministerie 2 Therefore vpon this presumption that they doe not onely admit our ministring of sacraments but also the lawfull ordering of the ministers for the same if they can shew me why our church hauing by their owne consent and approuing lawfull priestes and bishops should not be the true church I recant YOu presume to much as I saide before to thinke that we receiue your orderinge to be lawfull or your ministring of sacraments to be pure And if you gather that we admitte your ministration of sacraments because we doe not rebaptize