any regard or knowledge of their being sent by the true Church This weake minor of yours is vnderpropt in each part with a pillar of the holy Scripture the former thus No sensuall man can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries Euery man without faith is a sensuall man Therefore no man without faith can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries If by obtaining the knowledge of diuine mysteries you meane assenting to the truth of God concerning saluation I grant your whole syllogisme and in this sense it was needlesse to proue that part of your minor In the other sense that a man cannot attaine to the knowledge of them but by faith which the words manifestly import I denie the maior for the reason before alledged but whatsoeuer your meaning be the Apostle saith no more but that a naturall man without the grace of God can neither once imagine any such meanes of saluation and other there is none nor acknowledge those meanes as true and sufficient Of the former the Apostle speakes in the ninth verse affirming that the means of saluation prepared by God for men are such as neither eye hath seen nor eare hath heard nor euer entred into any mans heart Of the latter is the place alledged by you where the word signifieth rather an approuing and receiuing then a perceiuing and the spirituall man whom he there opposeth to the naturall is said to discerne of spirituall things rather by acknowledging the truth of them then by vnderstanding the meaning of the word preached concerning them Your translation which I touched before where you terme hominem animalem a sensuall man is senslesse For who knowes not that by a sensuall man we meane a voluptuous man giuen vp to his pleasures and sensualitie But the Apostle speakes not of such onely but euen of the wisest and most vertuous that euer were amongst men without grace so that in his meaning as well temperate Xenocrates and learned Aristotle called for his knowledge natures darling vertuous Socrates and wise Solon as Sardanapalus Thersites Nero and such like are naturall men that is such as haue no grace of God but that shadow of it which remaineth in all men by nature and is helped by education and humane learning It is true that Animalis naturalis is not all one in nature yet doth Naturall better expresse the Apostles meaning then sensuall and generally all writers haue made an opposition in this sense betwixt Nature and Grace not betwixt Sensualnesse and Grace as you may see throughout Austins Prospers Ieromes and your owne Schoolemens writings Neither will it helpe the matter to say as you doe that Naturall wit in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses For sensuall signifieth not him that vseth his senses to the vnderstanding of this or that but him that is drowned in Sensualitie Besides naturall wit doth not vse the helpe of the outward senses alwaies in vnderstanding yea there are many and the most excellent pointes of Philosophie in which Sense hath nothing to doe as in the discourse of Reason and the knowledge of Logicke with all those hard and worthie Questions of the Soule and of God himselfe as farre as they are to be conceiued of by the light of nature If you will say that we learne these things partly by reading and hearing I aunswer both that we finde out many things in Philosophie of our selues by studie without anie helpe of Sense which rather is an hinderance to the soule in the search of such pointes and also that the knowledge we haue of diuine mysteries is first brought to vs and continually increased in vs by the same Senses of seeing and hearing else were your Church as good be without those preachers you so much brag of The other part of your Minor that faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church you prooue or rather endeauour to prooue in this sort If no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach except he be sent then Faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church But no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach without he be sent Therefore faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church I denie the consequence of your Maior and affirme that faith may be had without the teaching of the true Church though no man can beleeue without he heare c. For I haue shewed that some countries haue bene brought to beleefe without any such teaching by authoritie from the true Church I also referre the Reader to my answer to your Minor That place of the Apostle concerneth not the ordinarie ministerie of the word but the knowledge of the means of saluation which as the Apostle truly saith could neuer haue bene thought on by any man if it had not pleased God to giue notice thereof to the world by men appointed and authorised to that purpose by himselfe But of this place and matter I spake sufficiently before in this and in a former chapter A. D. §. 4. Thirdly true faith is included in the true Church and as it were enclosed in her belly as Saint Austin saith vpon those words of the Psalme Errauerunt ab vtero loquuti sunt falsa In ventre Ecclesiae saith he veritas manet quisquis ab hoc ventre separatus fuerit necesse est vt falsa loquatur Truth remaineth in the belly of the Church whosoeuer is separated to wit by difference in doctrine from this belly of the Church must needs speake false Therefore like as if a man had Gold in his belly we must first finde the man before we can come to see the gold it selfe so we must first by other markes finde out the true Church which hath the gold of true faith hidden in her belly before we come to see the gold of true faith it selfe Sith especially we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it vnto vs and that we cannot being spiritually blinde certainely know it to be true and not counterfeit but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it According as the same Saint Austin saith Euangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae authoritas commouerer I should not beleeue the Gospell it selfe vnlesse I were mooued by the authoritie of the Church For if we had not the testimonie of the Church how should we haue bene infallibly sure that there were any Gospell at all Or how should we haue knowen that those bookes which â—eare title of the Gospell according to Saint Mathew Marke Luke and Iohn are true Canonicall Scripture rather then those bookes which are written in the name of Nicodemus and Saint Thomas bearing the same title or inscription of Gospell A. W. Your third reason is thus to be framed That which is shut vp in the belly
of God Now the same Church or partie which assureth vs that the Gospell is true may notwithstanding erre in the meaning of some points in it and a man may discerne these errours by the light which shineth in the Scriptures thus acknowledged First it is here confessed by your selfe that Austins speach is not of all fundamentall points of true doctrine but onely as I said of knowing the Scripture to be the word of God for so onely you reason out of it and thereby shew plainly to all that will see that it cannot prooue the matter for which you brought it Secondly you proceed farther to prooue the point by an other reason but faultie like the former If say you without the testimonie of the Church we could not haue bene infallibly sure that there is any Gospell at all nor haue knowne that the Gospels of Matthew Marke Luke and Iohn are true Canonicall Scripture rather then those of Nicodemus and Saint Thomas then we cannot know true doctrine to be true but by giuing credit to the Churches testimonie of it But we could not haue knowne those things without the testimonie of the Church Therefore we cannot know true doctrine to be true but by giuing credit to the Churches testimonie of it A man that is so full of his compound syllogismes as you are might learne to make better consequences in his Maior then you commonly bring vs. Let vs grant you that we could not know that there is any Gospell or which is the Gospell without the testimonie of the Church All that will follow thereupon is this that we cannot know these two points of doctrine to be true without giuing credit to the testimonie of the Church Yea if I were disposed to trouble you I would yet farther denie your said consequence because though we cannot know these matters without the Churches testimonie yet we might know them without resting vpon the Churches authoritie For the testimonie of the Church may be had by the ministerie thereof without any such absolute authoritie of enioyning beleefe or giuing credit to that she affirmeth as an vndoubted truth This Minor as the former in this chapter consisteth of two parts and is false in both of them as I will shew particularly First you say that without the testimonie of the Church we could not haue bene infallibly sure that there is any Gospell Your meaning is that we could not haue knowne this certainely but by giuing credit to the report of the Church as a certaine truth First for the doctrine of the Gospell to saluation it hath bene had and may be had without any testimonie of the Church at all taking the testimonie of the Church as you do for the preaching of men publickly authorised to this dutie by a companie of men so qualified as you before describe your Church I shall need no better proofe then to put you in minde againe of those nations many and great who attained to faith and saluation by the teaching of the Apostles seuerally without any such argument of the Churches absolute authority Secondly taking the Gospell for the 4. bookes of the Euangelists I answer that there may be true faith true Churches without the knowledge of those bookes yea without the verie being of them as it is manifest by the former example many thousands being conuerted and many Churches setled without the knowledge and before the publishing or penning of them But to come to the verie point I answer further that it is a grosse absurditie to make men beleeue that there can be no certaine knowledge had that there is any Gospell but by giuing credit to the Church whereas no man can know that there is any such authoritie in the Church or any Church at all but by the authoritie of the Scripture It is more then ridiculous for me to beleeue that there is a companie of men infallibly taught of God which is the truth with authority to enioyne obedience to all men in whatsoeuer they will teach if I haue no better proofe of it then their owne word For since God hath indued man with reason it is both simplenesse and sinne for him to beleeue that which is vtterly against the light of reason if he haue no warrant from God so to do But warrant he can haue none to beleeue such a conceit of any company but from the scriptures as it is euident by your own course who make a place of scripture the ground of your whole disputation Therefore whereas you teach men first to know the Church and then by the Church the Scriptures we say this course is vtterly vnwarrantable hauing no foundation either in reason or reuelation Yea contrariwise we truly affirme that the Scripture must first be knowne at the least in that point of the authoritie of the Church and then the Church by the Scripture And this is Austins iudgement directly Let vs not heare saith he this I say this you say but let vs heare this saith the Lord. There are the Lords bookes to the authoritie of which both of vs consent both of vs giue credit both of vs yeeld obedience there let vs seek the Church there let vs discusse our question And afterward I will not haue the Church to be shewed by mens doctrines but by the Oracles of God And againe Let vs seeke the Church in the Canonicall Scriptures The like speeches are euerie where in that booke Whether we be schismaticks or you saith the same Austin let neither you nor me but Christ be asked that he may shew vs his Church But where shall we know what our Sauiour saith concerning his Church and how he would haue it knowne but in the Scriptures Yet I denie not that the ministerie of men is necessarie to giue notice that there are certaine bookes in which it hath pleased God to reueale the meanes of saluation to mankinde though I acknowledge not any authority in the Church whereby men should be bound to beleeue this their report when as yet they are ignorant that there is any such Church You will say then what shall we doe or how shall we know that there is any Gospell If you will giue me leaue I will shew you what course is to be takē When you vnderstand that there hath bin and is still an opinion that there are certaine bookes written by Gods authoritie and appointment to teach men the way to saluation do as any reasonable man would do in a matter of such importance Get the bookes reade and studie them with a true desire to see whether they be such as they are reported to be or no. And because thou knowest by nature that there is a God and that he onely is all-sufficient to discouer the truth of his owne purpose touching the estate of his creature call vpon him though in ignorance and weaknesse that it would please him to direct thee in this enquiry after the means of thy saluation
be whereby we come to assurance that these bookes are the word of God let it suffice all men that both we and you agree they are so But I pray tell me Are the determinations of the Church any more certaine What ground haue I but the word of some men that the Church hath so determined It is not a matter so agreed vpon betwixt vs as the bookes of Scripture are Out of question the ods is on our side It is doubtfull whether you Romanistes are the Church or no it is out of doubt these bookes are the infallible word of God But you will say the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood as well because they are written in Hebrew and Greeke as also for the kind of writing Are not all the Decrees of your Councels and determinations of your Popes Consistorie written either in Greeke or Latin or in the Italian language in none of which one man among ten thousand hath any skill And is there not as great reason to thinke the Scriptures are rightly translated as your Decrees Decretals and Determinations Especially when as we commonly alledge the interpretations of the ancient Fathers and learned Papists for the auowing of our translations But the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood though a man be skilfull in the tongues And are the Decrees of your Councels so easie that euery man may vnderstād them who knowes the language they are written in Doth not Bellarmine condemne and confute our writers Caluin Chemnitius and other for not vnderstanding the Decrees of your Councell of Trent written in Latine which language they were as skilfull in as himselfe If they be so easie how chance Bishop Catharin and Frier Soto that were both present at the Councell and heard the debating of matters can not agree about the doctrine of it concerning assurance of saluation which as Soto affirmes was the longest and most troublesome disputation of all in the Councell and therefore should haue bene best vnderstood and plainliest deliuered Yet is it so propounded by the holy fathers the authors of it that Catharin saith boldly he foresaw that most men would vnderstand the words of the Decree otherwise then the holy Synod meant them Was there not great contention within these very few yeares betwixt Archbishop Christophor de Capite fontium and many other Diuines about the meanes of transsubstantiating the bread though in his iudgement the Councel of Trent makes manifestly for him I forbeare to say that some points seeme to haue bene craftily set downe of purpose like the oracles of Apollo that which way soeuer they be taken the Church may not seeme to haue erred Neither will I adde that diuerse matters are deliuered by Councels not as points of faith but as probable coniectures which yet may be and are taken by some of your owne learned writers as if they were resolutely determined for certaine truth These things considered I see no sufficient reason why it should not be as fit and safe to learne of the Scripture which is the infallible truth as of any companie of men whatsoeuer But you labour to commend to vs this resting on the authoritie of the Romish Church by some especiall commodities that shall ensue thereupon The first wherof is ease the 2. certaintie of knowledge He shall not need say you to straine his wits in studying c. If ease were not too much delighted in by men of your profession there would not be such swarms of idle Monks Fryers Nuns nonresident Bishops and Priests amongst you But true Christians vnderstand that it was not Gods purpose to prouide so much for their ease by giuing them leaue to beleeue at aduenture hand ouer head whatsoeuer it should please men to enioyne thē but that it is his good pleasure that all men should carefully and painfully exercise themselues night and day in reading and meditating of the Scriptures He is too nice and dainty a professor of religion that is loth to straine his wits to the vttermost in the study of any thing reuealed by God in Scripture What shall I say of him that cals conference and disputation about euen the greatest points of faith and iustification wasting of words in wrangling Nec se magnanimo maledicere sentit Achilli It is strange you should not haue the wit to perceiue that by this censure you condemne Lombard Thomas and all your schoole men yea the Pope and generall councels who are bound to vse such meanes for the finding out of the truth and as Sotus saith did vse them in a long and troublesome disputation yet forsooth neither the one nor the other at least both together cannot erre No man then ought to refuse study or disputation of controuersies in diuinitie because they are troublesome Therefore to mend the matter you adde that they are also vncertaine what can be certain but only reuelation if the true vse of reason can breed nothing but vncertainty How idly and vainly did your schoolemen imploy themselues if all their study and labour must end in vncertainty What vse is there of Councels for finding out of the truth since the helpe to be had of them is debating of matters by reasoning Do we not find in daily experience that as flint and steele stricken together bring forth fire so truth is as it were beaten out by disputation It is reported you make great shewes of desiring a disputation I maruaile to what end If when all comes to all your auditors shall still remaine vncertaine what is true Shall I go yet farther You tell vs the Church cannot erre we beleeue you not you alledge some places of Scripture to proue it to vs we say they proue no such matter what course will you take It is in vaine to dispute of it that is as you say to wast words in wrangling about it For that is but an vncertaine meanes to find-out the truth Haue you not brought matters to a good passe thinke you when you professe that there is no meanes to discern certainlie whether the Church can erre or no but onely to take her own word for it Yea no meanes left to know that she is the Church For if you will againe fly to the Scriptures you run into the former difficulties and end as before in vncertainty Who would haue to do with such vnreasonable men But that you may not seeme to leaue vs in vncertainty you tel vs that we may most certainly be instructed in all particular points of controuersies by onely enquiring and finding out what is holden generally by the Church for truth c. You send vs to the faith of the Church and namely of the Church of Rome Which say we is onely so farre forth to be yeelded vnto as it is agreeable to the Scriptures Neither do we say so onely but Ambrose long before our time hath said the like We are commanded saith
Peter as we heard Bellarmine say signifieth no more but that God keepes no man from being saued but hath vouchsafed the word and sacraments in common to all Your Glosse restraines that Any to them that are to be conuerted that is to the elect That other which are to be conuerted may be conuertea Thomas and Holkot interprete it de voluntate signi of that wil of God which we may gather by the signes he sheweth as for example God calleth all men from danger of damnation by precepts counsels threatnings rewards These are signes to vs that God would haue all men to be saued but there is another will called volunt as beneplaciti the good pleasure of God which is indeed truly that which God intendeth Thomas addeth also a second exposition out of Damascen but it can proue nothing because it cannot be necessarily enforced out of the text rather then the other which is also more warrantable for the truth of it as I will shew another time vpon more iust occasion if it please God Caietan alledgeth three seuerall interpretations that of Damascens a second of All kind of men whereof before and a third of the elect which also he doth exemplifie in the person of Peter Thus I haue shewed that the maine foundation you build vpon is but weak wanting ground of warrant from the word of God But admit it were neuer so true that God would haue euery man to be saued which in some sense as I haue said indeed is most true yet were not the consequence of your proposition proued For there might be sufficient meanes for euery mans saluation though there were no meanes to bring him to that same one infallible entire faith which you conceit but onely to so much faith and knowledge as is necessary to saluation by which he might be sufficiently instructed in matters of faith which is all that you craftily seeme to require in the conclusion of this section whereas before in your proposition no lesse would serue the turne then infallible instruction in all points questions and doubts of faith A. D. §. 2. To this purpose saith S. Austin Si Dei prouidentia praesidet rebus humanis non est desperandum ab eodem ipso Deo auctoritatem aliquam constitutam esse qua velut certo gradu nitentes attollamur in Deum If Gods prouidence saith he rule and gouerne humane matters as he proueth that it doth we may not despaire but that there is a certain authoritie appointed by the same God vpon which staying our selues as vpon a sure step we may be lifted vp to God Saint Austin therefore doth acknowledge some authoritie to be needfull as a meanes whereby we may be lifted vp to God The which lifting vp to God is first begun by true faith And because this authoritie is so needfull a meanes he would not haue vs doubt but that God whose prouidence stretcheth it selfe to all humane matters hath not failed to prouide this meanes for vs it being a principal matter and so principall as vpon which according to the ordinary course dependeth the summe of our saluation We are not therefore I say to doubt but that Almghtie God hath prouided a meanes whereby Animalis homo qui non percipit ea que sunt spiritus Dei a sensuall man who hath no vnderstanding of the diuine mysteries of faith may come to know them by a firme and infallible beleefe A. W. To what purpose doth Saint Austine bring this To proue that God hath appointed a rule by which all men may come to your infallible faith Nothing lesse but to shew that where truth is not euident as to men ordinarily it is not there God hath prouided meanes to stirre them vp to a diligent enquiry after it or rather as he plainly affirmeth to a ridding of themselues of the cares and pleasures of this life which he cals purging of the soule that so they may be fit to embrace the truth Authoritie saith Austin is at hand for a man that is not able to discerne the truth that he may be fitted to it and suffer himselfe to be purged What is this authoritie what is the vse of it Miracles multitude make vp this authoritie whereby men not able to see truth in it self are moued to a reuerend respect of the Church so to an examination of the doctrine which vpon triall is found true Thus doth the wisedome of God prouide for mens ignorance that authoritie of miracles and multitude may draw them to a consideration of the truth which whensoeuer it shewes it selfe so plainly that it cannot be doubted of is to be preferred before all other meanes of perswading a man to beleeue or holding him in beleefe whatsoeuer as the same Austin saith we denie not these to be good helpes and strong meanes to the searching and finding of the truth but to be sufficient and infallible grounds of religion that a man should relie vpon them without trying the doctrine by the truth of God reuealed in the Scriptures It is indeed out of doubt among Christians that God hath prouided some meanes by which a naturall man whom you absurdly call sensuall whereas the Apostle meaneth a man in his best natural estate since his fal who cānot discerne of Gods truth nor admit of it may come to the knowledge thereof Because it was impossible saith Irenaeus to learne God without God he teacheth men by his word his sonne to know God It is he that hath vouchsafed vs this knowledge by the ministery of men worke of the spirit in their hearts that beleeue according to the word of God in the Scriptures Let vs not heare saith Austin This I say This thou sayest but let vs heare This saith the Lord there are the Lords bookes extant to the authoritie whereof both of vs consent both of vs giue credit both of vs obey there let vs seeke the Church there let vs discusse our question Other meanes of triall then by the Scripture he accounteth and calleth deceitfull The Scriptures are the bounds of the Church beyond which she may not wander Whatsoeuer any man since the Apostles hath seene without warrant of Scripture let him be neuer so holy neuer so eloquent it is of no authoritie but onely to mooue vs to a consideration of that he saith A. D. §. 3. Onely the question is what manner of thing this meanes must be and where euerie man must seeke and finde it that hauing found it he may as S. Austen speaketh stay himselfe vpon it as vpon a sure step thereby to be lifted vp to a true faith and by faith to God The which question being of so great consequence that it being well determined a man need neuer make more question in matters of faith I wil God willing in the chapters following endeuor to resolue it as clearely as I can And this I purpose to do first by
therein What art what writing of any man is so bare Are the Scriptures onely that come immediatly from the author of true reason to be barred of that priuiledge which all other writings iustly challenge Is not a necessary consequence according to the rules of logicke and reason to be allowed of in Diuinitie as well as in the Mathematicks where consectaries are as certainly true as the theoremes out of which they are drawne Is it not as certaine by Scripture that there are three persons distinct each from other and all three but one God as if these verie words had bin expresly set downe But we must beare with you in this matter who learned this shift of your great Cardinal Bellarmine We say quoth Bellarmine where he deliuereth the opinion of your Church that the whole doctrine of faith and manners is not expresly contained in the Scriptures Expresly contained To be expressed and to be contained are at the least diuers if not contrary But I pray you who saith otherwise Not the Protestants doubtlesse whose opinion he propoundeth presently after this sort They preach saith Bellarmine speaking of vs that all things necessary to faith and manners are contained in the Scriptures What is become now of expresly For pure shame he was glad to leaue out that word though he had craftily stolen it in before Well this may serue to make good my deniall of your proposition A thing may be determinable by Scripture though the determination be not expresly set downe therein Take not aduantage of my words because I say determinable and you determined For the question is not what is determined that is set downe in plaine words but it is sufficient if the Scripture affoord vs the determination of matters by certain consequēce vpon truth therein deliuered Therefore whereas you adde by onely expresse Scripture onely and expresse are but meere shifts nothing at all against that we affirme who require besides onely expresse words of Scripture the ministery and industry of man to gather and conclude points of doctrine out of that which is written in the Scripture Your assumption is true that there are diuers questions not determinable by expresse Scripture and yet as I haue shewed the Scripture is sufficient for the determining of all points of faith necessary to saluation Concerning the particular question you bring for the proofe of your assumption First you seeme to grant and that grant is as much as we require that it may be gathered out of the Scripture by consequence that those books which we and you acknowledge to be the word of God are so indeed otherwise why say you that we shall not find it expresly set downe in a part of Scripture Secondly I demaund as before who moueth this question Not the Protestants who account it a kind of blasphemie to denie it and of infidelitie to doubt of it Your holy Church of Rome is she that hath buzzed this matter into Christian mens eares so that religion is thereby become a scorne to Atheists while you make no conscience of discrediting the word of God so you may by any meanes increase the reputation of your Apostaticall sea The truth is that this opinion is not a matter now a dayes first set abroach for Atheists such as Iulian haue from time to time obiected it therefore might you haue spared to mention it as a question now a dayes moued But it is new and strange yea almost incredible that Christians and those Diuines yea such as thinke religion resteth on their shoulders as the Poets faine heauen doth vpon Atlas should make a question whether the Scriptures be the word of God or no and so giue men occasion to doubt thereof Thirdly if this matter cannot be resolued of by the Scripture we shall be little the nearer for the infallible authoritie you haue deuised Christians need it not who are already perswaded that the bookes of the old and new Testament are the vndoubted word of God and with Christians onely to speake truly and properly hath the Church to do ordinarily But it falleth out sometimes that amongst those which make profession of Christianitie there are some found who are in doubt of this point If this doubt arise in the heart of a man that maketh conscience of religion he is to be taught that it is but a tentation of Satan and therefore not to be hearkened to Further we must demaund the reasons of his doubting shewing him how absurd and vnreasonable a matter it is to make question of that which generally both Protestants and Papists hold and which hath bene held by the space of 1500. yeares vnlesse he be able to giue very sufficient cause why he may doubt His arguments if he bring any must be answered and the Scriptures auowed by the matter and manner of writing which is such as will certainly if not conuert yet conuince any man in the world that man is not the deuiser of those bookes If he be an Atheist that derideth religion and withall so vnreasonable that the former and many other important proofes will not perswade him what remaines but that the magistrate whom God hath appointed to see true religion established cut off so corrupt a member by lawfull authoritie Where this course is not taken what meanes haue you to helpe the matter Will you tell him of an infallible authoritie in the Church He will laugh at your folly who instead of prouing beg the question I doe not beleeue saith he there is any such Church or authoritie If I doubt of the Scripture you proue it by the Church if I beleeue there is not any such Church or authoritie in the Church you will perswade me by Scripture To say the truth who can be so patient or foolish rather as to suffer himselfe to be led vp downe in a ring as it were a doore turning vpon hinges still in the same place The authoritie of the Church is an argument of such waight as that he is not to be counted either a Christiā or a man of reason that is not much moued therewithall yea so much as that he will not dissent from the continuall iudgement of it vnlesse he be driuen to it by certaine reason but yet this authoritie is not infallible Christ euermore iudgeth truly saith Austin but the Ecclesiasticall iudges as being men are very often deceiued And therefore he saith in another place that he is not bound to giue his consent without libertie to refuse to any thing but the Canonicall Scriptures And in an Epistle to Ierome I haue learned saith he to giue this reuerence and honour onely to those bookes that are called Canonicall that I constantly beleeue that no writer of any of them hath erred But to make an end of this needlesse question where both sides are agreed let vs heare Saint Austin speake to the Manichees If you aske vs saith he how we know that these
be the Apostles writings we make you this short answer Thence we know these to be the Apostles whence you know that Manicheus was the author of yours And in his Confessions he setteth out the matter more at large that when he considered how many things we are faine to beleeue for which we haue no certaine proofe it pleased God at the last to perswade him that they were worthy of iust reproofe which would not giue credit to those bookes of God which he had established almost in all countries with such authoritie and that they were at no hand to be hearkened vnto who would aske him how he knew that those bookes were vouchsafed to mankind by the spirit of the onely true God This as Valentia saith may be knowne by the admirable effect these bookes worke in the hearts of men in stirring them vp to vertue without any such eloquence and perswasions as other writers stuffe their books withall and yet neuer moue vs as these do The like hath Stapleton where he speakes of the meanes which the Church vseth to discerne of the Scriptures It is not our meaning to shut out the holy Ghost who is the teacher of the children of God as in other points so also in this but to stop the mouthes of Atheists and importunate men who obiect so vnreasonably against the iudgement of the whole Christian world without authoritie or reason But of the spirit and teaching thereof hereafter Whatsoeuer you gather vpon the former point it must needs be of smal strength because that hath need of better proof But let vs grant that it is true doth it therefore seeme necessary or reasonable to you that we should admit the interpretatiō of the Church as you speake without any triall because by the authoritie thereof we beleeue that the Scriptures are the word of God What if God gaue the Church no further authoritie but onely to assure vs of the Scripture It doth not follow that we must giue credit to whatsoeuer a man will say because in some one point he must be beleeued We may not in reason doubt but that the records which we find in an office are true because they are auouched so to be by the clearke and maister of the office But what of that may we therefore take them for competent iudges so that we must of necessitie hold that to be the meaning of the record which they deliuer to vs as such I am perswaded no man of any vnderstanding will say so Yet do we acknowledge that Austin speaketh with verie great reason For where should an ignorant man enquire of the sense of the Scripture rather then there where be learned it was scripture He shall not deale either kindly or reasonably if he refuse their iudgement other things being alike for any mans else whatsoeuer and therefore I pray you be not offended if we that liued not in the times of Popish ignorance doe giue credit to our owne Church by which we haue bene perswaded that these are the scriptures of God rather then to your Priests and Cleargie from whom we haue not receiued this perswasion But the case in Saint Austins time was farre otherwise The Manichees against whom he wrote that Treatise would not suffer a man to beleeue any thing though it were writtē in scripture vnlesse it were proued true by reason and yet themselues as Austin sheweth in the chapter you alledge were driuen to allow faith without reason and to lay this for a ground that a man must beleeue Christ that is he must beleeue that there was such a man though he haue no proofe for it but report generally continued a long time which Austin confesseth to haue bene the authoritie that first moued him to beleeue Now the Manichees acknowledging thus much of Christ and that onely vpon beleefe without reason brought in monstrous opinions of their owne which could in no sort agree with the scriptures Therefore being pressed hard by the Diuines of that age with scripture they denied all authoritie thereunto farther then they in their ignorance and heresie could make it serue for their vnreasonable conceits Yea they made small or no reckoning of the scriptures in comparison of their fundamentall Epistle and such other blasphemies written by Manes their founder and some of his followers Had not Austin great reason then to answer as he doth not concerning the sense of scripture to which you falsely apply his words but touching those bookes of theirs wherein they had written horrible and senselesse absurdities against religion and reason Surely saith Austin since by their authoritie I haue bene brought to beleeue that there was such an one as Christ because it was so generally held time out of minde I will neuer runne to a few of yours who learned of them that Christ was to know what I must beleeue of him Why should I not rather beleeue them that the scriptures teach what is to be held of Christ then you that in your writings onely is the truth since in this matter you can bring no reason why I should beleeue you rather then them For since by them saith Austin I haue beleeued being mooued by the authoritie of their generall consent if they should faile and could teach nothing which words you craftily leaue out I should easlier perswade my selfe not to beleeue Christ then to beleeue any thing of him by any mans report but by theirs who first made me beleeue in him Your glosse of beleeuing the scriptures to be his word and what is the meaning of his word agree not eyther with the place you alleadge as may appeare euidently to him that will reade it or with their heresie but of both I haue spoken sufficiently A. D. §. 5. Thus I haue prooued that those English translations whereupon Protestants commonly build their faith cannot be a sufficient rule of true Christian faith First because they are not infallibly free from error Secondly for that all men cannot reade them neither can any by onely reading be sure to attaine the right sense without which to haue the words of Scripture is to haue them as Austin saith ad speciem non ad salutem for a shew but not to saluation Lastly for that all points of doctrine which appertaine to true Christian faith are not expresly set downe in scripture as beside my proofe Saint Austin Saint Basil and Epiphanius do affirme Some of which reasons haue also force to prooue that scripture alone in what language soeuer is not a fit meanes to instruct sufficiently all sorts of men in all matters of faith Wherefore I may absolutely conclude that Scripture alone cannot be that rule of faith which we seeke for A. W. Thus in steed of disputing against the scriptures being the rule of faith which was the matter you propounded you haue made a discourse against our translations hauing fancied to your selfe a conceit which besides your selfe I thinke
or happinesse This done thou shalt be sure to find by the euidence of truth manifested in those bookes that they are sent from God and not deuised by man If thou liue in such a place as affoordeth the interpretation of these bookes by the ministery of men vse that singular blessing of God with reuerence and care to vnderstand and thou shalt by the mercifull teaching of God acknowledge these books to be the word of God ordained for the saluation of thy selfe and other This will some man say may perhaps breed a perswasion that these bookes are from God but how shall we come to be infallibly sure of it How else but by the worke of the spirit of God in thy heart What say you must we runne to reuelations Who knowes the secrets of God but the spirit of God The truth it selfe discerned by that light which the spirit kindleth in our hearts worketh assurance of beleefe to which the testimonie of the spirit is added for our further confirmation Neither is this any other reuelation then you Papists require in this case For according to your doctrine no man can be perswaded infallibly of the truth of the Scripture either for the text or the interpretation but by the especiall teaching of the spirit otherwise he hath not faith but opinion of these matters Onely herein stands the difference betwixt vs that you say the argument whereby the spirit perswades vs to acknowledge the Scripture is the authoritie of the Church we affirme it is the euidence of truth which he makes vs to discerne by our vnderstanding enlightened and to approue by our will thereto inclined through his mightie and gracious worke vpon our soules The second part of your minor is that we could not haue knowne the Gospels of the foure Euangelists to be canonicall Scripture rather then those of Nicodemus and Thomas if we had not the testimonie of the Church Of the falsnesse of which opinion I shall need to say little because it is refuted in my answer to the former part For this knowledge is not bred in vs by resting vpon the Churches authoritie but by yeelding to the euidence of the truth discouered to our hearts by the teaching of the holy Ghost Concerning the authoritie of the Church in this point it were a presumptuous and vnreasonable thing for any man without very good proof or great likelihood of reason to deny or doubt of that which hath bin auouched so many yeares by the whole Christian world But to make question of the bookes of Scripture whether they be the word of God or no and to denie that there is any meanes to know them for such but the authoritie of the Church is the next way to open a gap to Atheisme to lay open Religion to the scorne of the world Can I not know the Scripture to be of God but by the authoritie of the Church How shal I then know it at all since it is not reasonable to beleeue there is any Church that hath such authoritie but by the warrant of the Scripture They do all they can to turne reasonable creatures into beasts who teach vs that we must beleeue the Church cannot erre because the Scripture saith so and yet denie that we can know there is any Scripture but by beleeuing it because the Church saith so This is to dance in a circle as if a man were coniured that he could not get out of it How shall I know there is a Church by the Scripture How shall I know there are any Scriptures by the Church Would your proud Clergie thus make fooles of Christian men if they did not despise them as voyd of all reason I wonder how your Pope Cardinals Bishops and the rest of your Cleargie can for beare laughing when they looke one vpon another and remember how they cosen and if I may vse the word in a matter of such importance gull the world with such palpable fooleries But your strumpet of Babylon hath made the Kings of the earth and all nations drunke with the cup of her fornications exalting her selfe aboue all that is called God and making her selfe the God of her slauish vassals But the Lord is iust who according to the Apostles prophefie hath sent the world strong delusions that they should beleeue lies that all they might be damned which beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse And certainly if there were not a great measure of 12. blindnesse and sottishnesse in the hearts of men that Gods purpose might take effect it were vnpossible that reasonable men should so be lead by the nose to errour and destruction A. D. §. 5. Fourthly if the true doctrine of faith in all particular points must be foreknowne as a marke whereby to know the true Church then contrarie to that which hath bin proued the authoritie of the Church should not be a necessarie meanes whereby men must come to the knowledge of the true faith For if before we come to know which is the true Church we must by an other meanes haue knowne which is the true faith what need then is there for getting true faith already had to seeke or bring in the authoritie of the same Church A. W. This fourth reason and the next labour to proue that part of your first assumptiō in this Chapter which we deny not that the true doctrine of faith in euery particular point is not a good marke of the Church It would therefore be but lost labour to spend much time in the examining of them yet somewhat I must say and first to the former If the true doctrine of faith in all particular points must be foreknowne as a marke to know the true Church by then is not the autoritie of the true Church a necessary meanes to know the true doctrine of faith by But the authoritie of the true Church is a necessary meanes to know the true faith by Therefore the true doctrine of faith must not be foreknowne in all particular points as a marke to know the true Church by Your conclusion is no more then we grant the consequence of your maior about which you take some paines needs not your helpe for the proofe of it Your minor is false That which you brought before to prooue it before was answered A. D. §. 6. Fiftly if before we giue absolute and vndoubted credit to the true Church we must examine and iudge whether euery particular point of doctrine which it holdeth be the truth with authoritie to accept that onely which we like or which seemeth in our conceit right and conformable to Scripture and to reiect whatsoeuer we mislike or which in our priuate iudgement seemeth not so right and conformable then we make our selues examiners and iudges ouer the church and consequently we preferre our liking or disliking our iudgement and censure of the interpretation and sense of Scripture before the iudgement and censure of the
with thē which yet may be done by ignorance without pride If many heathen men haue so demeaned themselues as that they could hardly or not at all be charged with any grosse outward fault doubtlesse it is possible for hereticks to do the like At the least what a gay marke of the Church is this holinesse which for a long time may be for ought men can discerne in an hereticke who all that while may be taken for a true Christian Besides if truth of religion be to be iudged of by holinesse of conuersation as a certaine marke for that within cannot otherwise be seene why may not a man change his conceit of anie religion when he seeth any notable professor thereof fall into any grieuous sinne as Dauid and Peter did As for vs whom you terme hereticks at your pleasure if our worst Protestants be not farre past in villanie by your Papists for treasons murthers and generally all kinde of vncleannesse I will confesse that you liue better then the grounds of your religion require and we worse then ours But I leaue this point till I come to examine your Assumption concerning the holinesse of your Church of Rome A. D. §. 5. The true Church is prooued also to be Catholicke that is to say vniuersall first in time by most plaine prophecies and promises of the Scripture as I haue alreadie shewed in the eleuenth chapter vnto which here I will onely adde those words of Isaias Hoc foedus meum cum eis dicit Dominus Spiritus meus qui est in te verba quae posui in ore tuo non recedent de ore tuo de ore seminis tui de ore seminis seminis tui dicit Dominus amodò vsque in sempiternum This is my couenant with them saith our Lord my Spirit which is in thee and my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart from thy mouth and from the mouth of thy seed and from the mouth of the seed of thy seed saith our Lord from henceforth for euer It may also be easily prooued to be vniuersall in respect of place by these plaine testimonies of holy Scripture Conuertentur ad Dominum vniuersi fines terrae all the bounds of the earth shall be conuerted to our Lord. Dominabitur à mari vsque ad mare à flumine vsque ad terminos orbis terrarum He to wit Christ shall rule and haue dominion from sea to sea and from the flood vntil the furthermost limits of the earth Omnes gentes seruient ei All nations shall serue him Vpon all which places and some other see Saint Austin in his exposition of the Psalmes and among other things which he speaketh to the purpose note his interpretation of those words à flumine vsque ad terminos orbis terrarū Which words saith he do signifie that the dominion of Christ began à flumine Iordano from the floud of lordan where he being baptised was made manifest by the descending of the holy Ghost the sound of his Fathers voice from whence he began to chuse his Disciples from hence saith he Doctrina eius incipiens dilatatur vsque ad terminos orbis terrae cū praedicatur Euāgeliū regni in vniuerso orbe in testimoniū omnibus gentibus tunc veniet finis His doctrine beginning is dilated or spread abroad vnto the furthest parts of the earth when the Gospell of the kingdome is preached ouer the whole world for a testimony to all nations after which done the end of the world shall come See also the same S. Austin in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae especially in the ninth tenth chapters where he eiteth vrgeth that place of S. Luke where our Sauiour saith Necesse est impleri omnia quae scripta sunt in lege Prophetis Psalmis de me c. quoniā sic scriptum est sic oportebat Christum pati resurgere à mortuis praedicari in nomine eius poenitentiā remissionem peccatorū in omnes gentes incipientibus ab Ierosolyma It is needfull that all things should be fulfilled which are written of me in the Law the Prophets and Psalmes c. for so it is writtē and so it was needfull that Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day and that penance and remission of sinnes should be preached in his name throughout all nations beginning frō Ierusalem By which place and diuers others he sheweth plainly that the true Church of Christ cannot be contained in a corner of the world but must be vniuersall that is diffused and spread throughout the whole world as the same S. Austin beside his other proofes gathered out of the very name Catholica the which name saith he was imposed on the Church by our forefathers vt ex ipso nomine ostenderent quia per totum est secundum totum enim Catholon Graecè dicitur that by the very name they might shew that the Church is throughout the whole world For saith he the word Catholon in Greeke wherupon Catholik is deriued signifieth a thing which is generall or agreeing to the while But we must note here that when we say the true Church is Catholick or diffused throughout the whole world it is meant that at least by succession of time it hath bene or shall be dilated more and more in euery nation till it haue gone throughout the whole world Moreouer it is termed Catholicke not onely because it shal be spred ouer the whole world in processe of time but also because euen in euery age it hath bin and shall be alwayes in very many nations and indeed in euery natiō where any Christiā religiō is which is in a sort to be spread ouer the whole world This doth S. Austin in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae most diligently proue out of the Scriptures themselues The effect of his argument is this The Church must be such as it is described in Scripture But in Scripture it is described to begin at Ierusalem and to proceed into all Iewrie and to go forward into Samaria and to stretch it selfe further and further vsque ad vltimum terrae euen vnto the vttermost of the earth And saith he the seed of the Gospell once sowne in the field of the world fructificat crescit doth not vniuersally or for the most part perish but fructifie and grow or increase in omni mundo in the whole world and doth continue to grow or increase vsque ad messē vntill the haruest of the consummation of the world as our Sauiour signifieth the which consummation will be when this seed is come to the full growth praedicabitur Euangelium in vniuerso mundo in testimonium omnibus gentibus saith our Sauiour tune veniet consummatio the Gospell shall be preached in the whole world for a testimonie to all nations and then the consummation shal
as you taught vs before of necessitie to saluation that we beleeue entirely all points of faith without misbeleeuing any one what hope of saluation shall be left to any Papist who cannot by any meanes know what is determined by the Church and what is not Or if he may be sure that matters defined by the Pope and a Councell are decided by the Church yet since it is not so determined whether the Pope alone be sufficient to determine of points in controuersie he may refuse to obey some constitutions of the Pope or to beleeue some questions decided by him and thereby shut himselfe out of heauen for not giuing credit to the determination of the Church if that authoritie of determining be in the Pope and he commaund men so to beleeue But if this determination of the Church be ioyntly in the Pope and Councels and that nothing is a matter of faith but that which is so determined to be then was there almost no matter of faith at all in the Church till within these last 800 yeares For it is more then euident to any man that will not be wilfully contentious that the Pope neuer bare any extraordinarie sway in Councels till he had proclaimed himselfe vniuersall Bishop which was by the grant of the murtherer Phocas six hundred yeares after the beginning of the Gospell What shall we thinke of the Churches in the Apostles times and so forward till the Councell of Nice in which the Popes supremacie was not heard of Had Christians then no matters of faith to beleeue How should they if all depend vpon the Pope and a general Councel Let me grant that those Councels in the Acts were generall what was there determined but that the Gentiles were to abstaine from things offered to Idols and bloud and that which is strangled and from fornication VVas nothing a matter of faith but these few points which also till this time were not matters of faith Either shew some good reason why matters of faith were not at this time of the Apostles liuing to be tied to generall Councels and the Pope yet now must be or confesse the truth to the glorie of God that matters of faith haue their authoritie to be matters of faith from the word of God and not from the determination of Pope or Councell or both Neither thinke to shift of the matter by saying they are indeed matters of faith in themselues but not to vs. For so it will come to passe that we shall say the first Christians had no points that were matters of faith to them because they had none determined by the Church in a Councell which opinion is I know not whether of more absurditie or impietie Now that you agreement in matters of faith after the determination of the Church is not so great as you would make the world beleeue it may appeare by the verie ground of religion the Canon of the Scripture which was determined of by your iudgement in the Councell of Carthage wherein the Apocryphall bookes say you were allowed for Canonical yet saith Bellarmine Nicholas Lyra Denys the Carthusiā Hugo de sancto victore Thomas de Vio both these at least the last Cardinals follow Ierom in reiecting thē as Apocryphal But if this Councel may be excepted against sure in your iudgment the Councell of Trent may not which hath receiued those books into the canō of the scripture Yet for all that Sixtus Senensis keeper of the Popes library maketh bold to deny thē such authority euen since that Coūcel as Bellarmine himself confesseth And Arias Montanus since that time doubteth not to say that the Orthodoxe or true Church following the Canon of the Hebrewes accounteth those bookes of the old Testament written in Greeke to be Apocryphal What say you to your Bishop Catharin who being one of the Councell of Trent after the determination of the Councell against assurance of saluation defendeth that such assurance notwithstanding that decree of the Councell may ordinarily be had by them that beleeue You would perswade vs that it is a ruled case of your Church long ago that the Scriptures are not sufficient without tradition What saith Scotus in this case Whatsoeuer pertaineth to heauenly and supernaturall knowledge and is necessarie to be knowne of men in this life is sufficiently deliuered in the holy scriptures The holy scripture saith Gerson is sufficient for the gouernment of the Church or else was Christ an vnperfect Lawgiuer I might runne on in the like course touching other points but these shal serue for a tast and so I passe ouer to your proofe that the learned on your side cannot possibly dissent one from another They which acknowledge that the definitiue sentence of the Pope is to be rested vpon as an vndoubted truth cannot possibly dissent in matters of faith But all Catholick learned men acknowledge that the Popes sentence is such Therefore no Catholicke learned men can possibly dissent in matters of faith All you conclude is that in matters determined by the Pope and a Councell your learned men cannot disagree because they hold that such a determination is certainly true yet for all this as I haue shewed your Church may be rent in peeces with contrarie opinions in matters of as great moment as most are in religion if for all this it cease not to be a true Church why should not the Protestants haue the like priuiledge who haue the same opinion of the Scriptures that you haue of the Pope Be not so iniurious to reason or blasphemous against God as to auouch that no controuersie can be ended by the word because diuers men will expound it diuersly For it is contrarie both to religion and sense to imagine that the Lord would giue his people such a Scripture as cannot be certainely vnderstood in all points necessarie to saluation but by I know not what reuelation to some one man More particularly I denie your Maior They that acknowledge such an authoritie in the Pope may yet differ in opinion about matters of faith I bring you example in that point of assurance wherein Catharin disputed against that doctrine which Sotus and your writers generally since the Councell of Trent affirme to haue bene the certaine decree of the Councell Yet were they both present in the Councell and none of the meanest there assembed The reason of that their dissent and the possibilitie of the like betwixt other men ariseth from this that decrees of Councels and Popes being set downe in writing may be diuersly interpreted and so the meaning of them mistaken as Catharin saith that he foresaw some men would misunderstand the Councell of Trent in that point This is all the inconueniences you can alledge in admitting the Scripture for Iudge and this followeth the decrees of Councels and Popes at the least as much as the writings of the holy Ghost
Aposiles without change is Catholicke The Romane Church is vniuersall in time place and doctrine of the Apostles without change Therefore the Romane Church is Catholicke If to make a Church Catholicke it be required that she continue in the doctrine of the Apostles how did you before denie that the doctrine of the Apostles is a necessary and certaine marke of the true Church But if you leaue this out and affirme that Church to be Catholicke which is vniuersall in doctrine and thinke it not needfull that the doctrine professed be the Apostles I denie your maior The reasons of my deniall I deliuered in the former Chapter when I shewed that truth of doctrine was the most proper and true marke of the Church But whatsoeuer your maior be your minor is euidently false in euery part of it The very foundations of the doctrine of the Apostles are ouerthrowne by your Church in the heresies you hold concerning predestination iustification free will the insufficiencie of the Scriptures and the headship of Antichrist your Pope Neither do you onely faile in the doctrine of the Apostles but in your vniuersalitie of time For how can that doctrine be said to haue bin always which was not taught by our Sauiour and his Apostles As for vniuersalitie in regard of the ample vniformitie of your doctrine if you speake of your Churches determination many points of great moment are not as yet defined by it for example take those maine questions whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or no whether he haue without a Councell priuiledge of not erring or no whether there be any merit of congruitie or no and such like Yea your Church denieth the chiefe point of all which in the Apostles time was held by all true Christians that iustification is by faith without the workes of the law I forbeare to shew the reasons of that I affirme because any man may setch them out of my former answer in this and the last Chapter I looked for proofe of your minor but you were too wise to vndertake a matter so vnpossible and therefore in stead of that you challenge vs to shew and proue the contrarie forgetting that it is the repliers part to proue and not the answerers But I pray you tell me in earnest did you neuer heare of any particulars whereby we except against your doctrine as none of the Apostles What a vaine flourish is this then to demaund new proofes of vs and neuer once assay to answer those we haue alreadie brought But I haue made answer to your challenge in my refutation of your proofe that your Church is one Yea our mens bookes are full of these points and proofes both out of Scriptures and Fathers As for your brag of being able to shew diuers points that we hold or denie otherwise then the true Church did in the time of the Apostles it is well knowne that in most controuersies betwixt vs you are faine to flie from the Scriptures of God to the writings of men and deuise interpretations to serue your turne In some points we denie not but that we dissent from the opinion of some writers of former ages but that we go against the iudgement of the whole Church before it became Antichristian neither we graunt nor you can proue And euen for those times of error we want not the testimonie of learned men to auouch our doctrine against your heresies But you call vpon vs to set downe the point of doctrine the author the time the place what companie did oppose themselues against it and who they were that did continue in the profession of the former faith What needs all this ado Wil it not serue the turne if we make it manifest that your doctrine is contrary to that the Apostles taught vnlesse we can shew you when euery one of your errors was first hatched What if the Scribes and Pharises had demaunded the like questions of our Sauiour Christ touching their errors reproued by him There is no doubt but that as he was God he could haue declared euery one of these particulars but do you thinke he would haue fed their foolish humor in this case and not haue contented himselfe with shewing that it was not so from the beginning Some of our Ministers haue truly and wittily refuted this conceit of yours by shewing how absurd it is for a man that is sicke of the plague a surfet or any such disease to denie that he is so diseased because the Physition cannot tell him at what time and in what place vpon what occasion in what companie he first tooke the infection or distempered his bodie by ill diet Is it a good plea against plaine and sound euidence whereby I proue that such a Lordship ought to be mine that I cannot shew when and how I lost the possession of euery seuerall close and meadow farme and cottage But to take away all iust excuse from you our writers haue shewed the first beginnings of many of your errors and might haue done of more if al were extant that hath bin written and your inquisitors and censurers had not as you call it purged indeed corrupted and maimed the writings of former ages wheresoeuer they made against you if you could light on them before they were too well knowne in the world This challenge hath as much reason as the former We must proue that there haue not bene some in euery countrey where the Gospell hath bene professed that haue held your Romane faith Or rather must not you proue your Catholicknesse by such induction But we confesse it to be likely that the diuell hath from time to time sowed some of your tares amongst the Lords wheate But that your whole faith as now you hold it was euer maintained any where till the last Councell of Trent we challenge you to proue if you can Surely the Greeke Church euen till this day dissenteth from you in many and some no small matters as your Popes supremacie that I may not name those Christians who are in precious Iohns countrey in Armenia and other parts of the world to whom your doctrine is as little knowne in a manner as ours is to those Indians you spake of Amongst whom for ought you can proue or know to the contrary there may be and in all liklihood are some to whom the Lord hath giuen grace to rest wholly vpon Iesus Christ for pardon of their sinnes without any mingling of their owne workes with Christs to procure them the inheritance of heauen All such we challenge to be of our Church though they agree with you in many of your errors through their ignorāce of the Scriptures As for our countrey of England which like that harlot you call deare as oft as you conceiue hope of bringing it into subiection to the Pope but otherwise wish it wholly destroyed as shee did the child it neither was conuerted by your proud Monke Austine but peruerted rather
this possibilitie tooke effect in me I may thanke my selfe more then God so that by this doctrine the glorie of euerie particular mans saluation is more due to the partie saued then to God the Sauiour Now on the contrarie side if that we teach be true the losse falles on mans part and not vpon Gods Is any man drawne out of the Iawes of hell and damnation The whole glorie redounds to God It was he that prouided meanes of saluation it was he that gaue me in particular knowledge of that meanes It was he that when I was as vntoward and vnwilling to be saued as the most damned reprobate wrought me to beleeue can I euer be vnmindfull or vnthankfull by inclining my heart to like and accept of his grace and faith in Christ But in the meane while I loose the commendation and the glory of vsing the grace of God well by my free-will O Adam Adam earth and ashes how fast doth that pride of nature whereby thou wast destroyed in thy selfe though in thee it were not naturall cleaue to euerie one of thy posteritie We had rather be thought able to gouerne our selues then be gouerned by God It is more pleasing to vs to hazard our saluation vpon the nice choise of our owne free-will then to be assured of it by the mercie of God working in vs this choise to will O that as we are all partakers of Adams pride so we might also partake with his repentance and faith Would Adam trow ye if it might be put to his choise againe venture vpon his owne free-will though he were as pure as euer he was rather then rest secure vpon Gods almightie and most certaine protection No no blessed soule he knoweth by wofull experience though by Gods vnspeakable goodnesse to his and our greater glorie that he and he only is out of danger who resignes himselfe into Gods hands to be disposed of at his gracious pleasure Why refuse we to be like to Adam in this Will we follow him in that onely of which onely he is ashamed Is it not more glorie to arise with him then to haue fallē with him O why do we euery day renew the memorie of his fault by committing the like Doth the brightnesse of the truth in these points dazle your eies Me thinks I see many of you offering to presse forward as it were to take the kingdome of heauen the doctrine of the Gospell by violence why recoile you Why quaile you on a sodaine The bare name of the Church not onely stayeth you but beateth you backward The Romish Church cannot erre VVho telleth you so Surely they that can erre your Priests and Iesuits Giue me leaue I pray you to question with you a little and for a minute of an hower be content to make vse of that reason and knowledge which God hath giuen you without forestalling your iudgements by preiudice of the authoritie of the Church Doth it not appeare to you by the light of naturall reason that the maine end of all religion is the glorie of God Do not your owne consciences testifie in the simplicitie of your hearts that it maketh more for the glorie of God that men should be beholding to his Maiestie for their saluation then that they should procure it to themselues Is it not also apparent to you in the secret of your owne soules that our doctrine by beating downe the pride of mans free-will aduanceth the glorie of Gods mercie and yours by hoysing vp the conceit of mans good choise presseth downe the estimation of Gods vnspeakable goodnesse And shall an idle sound weigh more with you then sound reason Consider I beseech you what weake grounds you build this opinion of the Church vpon I will point at that which in my answer I haue handled Can you in any sort compare the opinion of the Churches authoritie with the euidence of those matters wherewith before I pressed you Is it as cleere that there are certaine men whom I must beleeue whatsoeuer they teach as it is that I must seeke the aduancing of Gods glory more then of mine owne pride Are you as sure that these Priests and Iesuits which are your teachers be sent by the true Church and deliuer nothing but the doctrine of the true Chruch as you are that they who perswade you to rest wholy vpon God and not at all vpon your selues shew you the right way to procure Gods glory and your owne saluation Tush say you all is nothing vnlesse I beleeue it vpon the credit of the Church Alaste how did the first Christians who neuer thought on the authoritie of the Church when they heard and beleeued the Apostles doctrine Looke ouer all the Historie of the Actes peruse the Sermons of Peter and Paule and tell me whether you finde that euer they pleaded the authoritie of the Church to procure beleefe of their doctrine After men are conuerted the authoritie of the Church hath her due place and must beare sway in matters in different but for the auowing of truth her bare word is neuer of sufficient importance It was the doctrine of the Apostles that wrought vpon the hearts of men by the cleare euidence of it through the power of the Spirit wherewith it was accompanied What that doctrine was where should we learne but in the scriptures wherein they haue written what they preached These you say giue such authoritie to the Church This were somewhat if you made not their authoritie in respect of vs to depend vpon the Church The scriptures say your Doctors haue in themselues authoritie as being from God but they are not of authoritie to vs but onely by the authoritie of the Church I perceiue you are ashamed of these absurdities The Church must be beleeued vpon her word Why so The Scripture saith so How shall I know that these bookes are scripture The Church saith so The Church and the scripture prooue each other by their mutuall testimonie they giue each of other I beleeue the Church because the scripture biddeth me I beleeue the scripture because the Church biddeth me If these things seeme to be absurd as indeed they are most absurd blinde not your selues any longer with such mists of errour but come out of them to the cleare light of the scriptures reade them diligently meditate in them carefully call vpon God for his grace earnestly resigne your selues and your free-will to him sincerelie and the Lord that is most readie to blesse them that vse the meanes of knowledge and faith in humilitie and singlenesse of heart will assuredly enlighten your vnderstanding and incline your affections that you shall discerne like of and embrace the true doctrine of Iustification by faith in Iesus Christ and shall renounce your owne righteousnesse and free-will to the glorie of his grace and the present comfort and euerlasting saluation of your bodies and soules through the same his sonne to whom with the Father and the holy Ghost be all
of Nice to follow and which they accordingly followed The bookes of the Euangelists and Apostles and the Oracles of the old prophets plainly instruct vs quoth that worthie Emperour what we are to iudge of matters concerning God Therefore laying aside all enemie-like discord let vs debate ad determine the points in question by the testimonies of the Scriptures inspired by God These as we heard before Ierome makes the bounds of the Church within which she must keepe her selfe and Proclus Archbishop of Constantinople confineth faith to the same place Faith saith he must abide within the Euangelicall and Apostolicall bounds Paschasius a Cardinall of your Church as you say many yeares since tied Macedonius the hereticke to the Scriptures equiring him either to shew by euident testimonies of the word of God that we must beleeue in the Church or else to vrge the point no further For as Chrysostome truly affirmeth If there be any thing needfull to be knowen we shall learne it in the Scriptures I mightfil whole sides with testimonies out of the Fathers to this purpose but I let them passe as needlesse especially since your selfe before confessed that the word of God is infallible and therefore in that respect sufficient to be the rule of faith Now to your conclusion The first part of this first conclusion is false in regard of the infallibilitie of Scripture which it should seeme you saw well enough and therefore balkt that matter and deuised an other point concerning our translation to play withall For what is it but trifling when a man leaues the thing in question and busies him selfe about the refuting of that which besides himselfe no man euer dreamed of What English protestant euer affirmed that our translation was infallible that is such as had no error in it or might not be doubted of Or who euer tooke it for the rule of faith You make babies which you beate as you list Against the Scriptures being the rule of faith which we affirme you say nothing Against the infallibilitie of our translation which we grant not to be the rule of faith you discourse at large wherein I intreate the Reader to consider these few things with me That which he speakes in disgrace of our translation makes no more against it then against all other whatsoeuer For neither is any translation the language in which the Scripture was written and no translators euer had any such infallible assistance by the holy Ghost Sure the author of the vulgar Latin translation had not such help as the Hebrew and Greek originals which the translations of all the learned Papists themselues declare Pagnin Vatablus Isidorus Clarius c. As for Gregory Martins cauils they were answered long since by D. Fulke and I maruell that you can name them without blushing seeing neuer a one of you durst vndertake the defence of them for the space of these 23. yeares Nay which is worse you were not ashamed in the second edition of your Rhemish Testament to bleare your blind followers eyes with a table of hereticall corruptions in translating the Scriptures as if you had propounded some new matter whereas they were all taken out of that booke of Martins and had long before bene iustified by D. Fulke without any reply on your parts You demaund how any vnlearned man can be infallibly sure that in those places which do seeme to fauour our sect our translation doth not erre I answer that there are better meanes of assurance for vnlearned Protestants concerning the truth of our translation then any Papist can haue by your imagined authoritie for your vulgar Latin First it is no slender perswasion to any reasonable man that those places you speake of if not wholy yet for the most part are translated with the same sense in other toungs which they haue in ours as in Spanish French Italian Flemish Dutch Secondly it is a great confirmation of the truth that many of those texts which seeme most to fauor vs are the same in your vulgar and Rhemish editions that they are in ours Thirdly the truth of ours is yet more cleare because euery man may see that in bookes of controuersie betwixt vs our translations are seldome denied by the learned of your side though you condemne our expositions Fourthly who may not easily discerne how much more faithfull our translation of those places all others is then yours seeing we are readie to make triall of it by the originals the learned on your sides being iudges you are afraid of nothing more then to haue yours examined by the Hebrew and Greeke Fiftly in the places you speake of our translations deserue the more credit because we labour to make them plaine for euery mans vnderstanding and shew how they agree with the rest of the booke and chapter wheras your Rhemish Testament is so handled that an English man of good vnderstanding can hardly tell what to make of it for the very words themselues in many places as if you auoided nothing more then plainnesse Sixtly we perswade all men as much as we can to labour for the knowledge of the originall tongues that so they may be able to iudge of our translation you do all you can to keepe men in the mist of ignorance because you are afraid to haue your corruptions discouered Seuenthly though we allow not our ministers such an infinite authoritie as you giue your Cleargie yet we teach that it becoms Christian charitie and modestie neither to suspect a translation where the analogie of faith is kept and the plaine meaning of the holy Ghost not manifestly altered nor to rest vpon priuate conceit against the generall iudgement of the learned without very euident proofe of error These amongst other are reasonable grounds for a Christian to build vpon that he may haue some good assurance of the truth of our translation Now let vs examine yours We must say you admit an infallible authoritie in the Church to assure vs that such or such a translation doth not erre in any point First this is more then neeeds For if that authoritie can assure vs that the translation erreth not in any point needfull to saluation in regard of the sense it may be a sufficient ground for vs to build our faith vpon though it should mistake some words in many points and the sense too in matters of lesse importance Secondly though we do admit such an authoritie in the Church yet may we be farre enough from any such assurance For how shall I be sure that the Church hath so affirmed of this or that translation How shal I know what the Church is A company you say of men vpon earth infallibly taught by the holy Ghost what is the true faith in al points Is this teaching cōmon to euery one of this company seuerally or only annexed to them all ioyntly when they are together What if all what if the greater part assemble
take away lothing But as he addeth in those places which are plaine in the Scriptures all those matters are found which containe faith and good manners that is hope and charitie This is that which Marsilius of Padua aboue 800 years since disputed against the Pope That the Gospel was very sufficient perfect cleare of it self that by it we may be directed immediatly concerning and in all things which belong to a mans obteyning of euerlasting life and auoiding miserie As in the former propertie hauing propounded your matter against the Scripture you reason only against the English translation so in this that one may be some what sutable to the other being to speake of the obscuritie of the Scripture you shew that it is hard to one kinde onely viz vnlearned men though you helpe the matter a little afterward by auouching the hardnesse of it euen to the learned also The Scriptures say you are not the rule of faith Why so Because they are hard to be vnderstood of those vnlearned mē that cannot reade them Is not the teaching of the Church whereto you ascribe so much vnpossible to be vnderstood by them that cannot heare Is it therefore no sufficient rule But the Scripture is not so hard as you imagine no not to them that cannot reade as long as they may heare it read and haue care to vnderstand and remember what they heare Yea there are many in England that know neuer a letter on the booke who notwithstanding are able to giue a better sense of many places of Scripture then some of your Masse-priests that can read their whole Portuise Seruice booke Idle therefore and ridiculous is your example of a man lockt vp with a Bible since by hearing it read though himselfe cannot read he may attaine to more knowledge then many of your blinde guides haue who for all their skill in reading vnderstand neuer a word of their Epistles Gospels which they daily say at Masse like prating parrots Now for your conclusions inferred hereupon the first as I haue shewed is false that any such entire and infallible faith is necessarie so that without it a man cannot be saued the second of the meanes without which such a faith cannot be had is ordinarily true the third which denies the Scripture alone to be such a meanes is either false and not prooued by you or nothing to the purpose Can any man truely say that God hath not prouided sufficient meanes for euerie mans saluation because some men are vnable to reade the Scriptures which are those meanes Hath not God done his part in making all men capable to reade though many neglect to learne Therefore if the Scripture be sufficient for all mens instruction as I haue prooued it to be for all your supposed obscurity God cannot be charged with want of care because men are carelesse to vse the meanes of their owne saluation But if by Scripture alone you meane Scripture without any helpe of man all you say is besides the matter For no man euer was so foolish as to make Scripture alone in that sense either the rule of faith or a meanes of any good whatsoeuer vnlesse perhaps you Papists according to the rest of your superstition in Agnus Deis hallowed Granes and such like may haue a conceit as those priests of whom an ancient writer speaketh had that a part of the Gospell hung about ones necke may be a preseruatiue against I know not what bodily or ghostly danger You haue vndertaken to prooue that the scriptures are not the rule of faith because they are hard to be vnderstood Their hardnesse in respect of the ignorant was auowed by you onely against those that cannot reade Now for the learned you tel vs that they cannot by onely reading the Scriptures be infallibly sure that they rightly vnderstand them What then Therefore can they not at all be sure Because reading onely will not assure them therefore is there no meanes whereby they may be assured Call to minde what I alledged before out of Ambrose Origen Chrysostome and Austin who doubt not to assure men that they may come to the vnderstanding of the Scripture if they will vse the meanes of praier and diligence Whom shall we beleeue These worthies of the Church speaking also vpon manifold experience or you whom we know not so much as by sight or name If you can so farre bewitch any of your owne poore ignorant soules yet sure ther is no man of any indifferent good iudgment that will be carried away with this your simple authoritie against the ioynt consent of those famous Diuines But you will adde reason to your authoritie let vs heare it It may be say you they ought to be vnderstood otherwise Therefore they cannot be sure they rightly vnderstand Tell me I pray you for my better instruction whether you make this doubt of all places of scripture or of some onely It will not sinke into my head that you doe so much condemne the scripture of obscuritie that you thinke no one place of it can be certainely vnderstood Nay it is vnpossible you should so despise the iudgment of those I named er while or condemne your owne capacitie as to denie that many texts of scripture are so euident that a childe cannot mistake the meaning of them Then that antecedent It may be they ought to vnderstand otherwise in some places of scripture can haue no place Let vs limit it that the truth may appeare Some places of scripture are so hard that a man may vnderstand them otherwise then in truth they are to be vnderstood This proposition is out of all question what wil you conclude hereupon That men cannot be sure they rightly vnderstand these places I grant this too Therefore these doubtfull places are not to be made the foundation of our faith but as Austin saith We must rest vpon those places of scripture which are verie manifest that by them the harder may be expounded But admit there were diuers texts of scripture which can by no meanes be certainly vnderstood which yet for my part sauing other mens better iudgement I do not thinke to be true because God hath appointed euerie syllable of the scripture for our instruction in this life but admit I say there were such places yet would it not follow hereupon that because those texts cannot be vnderstood therefore the scripture is so obscure that it cannot be the rule of faith For there may be sufficient means of saluation plainly discouered in the scriptures though these places be not vnderstood yea it may be and it is verie likely that the verie same things which in these places are signified are otherwhere in scripture apparently set downe You will say this prooueth that the scripture is obscure in some places VVho euer denied it But this doth not prooue that it is hard to be vnderstood in those points that are necessary to saluation Remember I denied
the scripture For how many points of doctrine are there not yet decreed of by your Church How many thousand places of scripture not yet expounded by it If then it be no hindrance to saluation for a man to be ignorant of the truth in many points and places of scripture may not the written word of God be the rule of faith though diuers things in it be not certainly vnderstood A. D. §. 3. Thirdly they faile in the third condition For the Scriptures are not so vniuersall as the rule of faith had need to be For this rule ought to be so vniuersall that it may be able absolutely to resolue and determine all doubts and questions of faith which eyther haue bene or may hereafter be in controuersie for otherwise there were not sufficient meanes prouided by which schisme and heresies might be auoided vnitie of faith so necessarie to saluation might be conserued among Christian men A. W. The last imperfection you note in the Scripture whereby you would make it insufficient to be the rule of faith is the scantnesse of it that it conteineth not all things necessarie to be beleeued which you go about to prooue thus The rule of faith must be able absolutely to resolue all doubts of faith that haue bene or may be The Scripture is not able absolutely to resolue all such doubts Therefore the Scripture is not the rule of faith I should haue let your proposition passe without any question but that I am so vsed to your craft in speaking doubtfully For feare whereof I would faine vnderstand what the reason is why you put in absolutely If your intent be to signifie that the resolution must be certainly true you might haue spoken plainly as you meant But it may be you vnderstand by resoluing absolutely such a kinde of resolution as shall take away all outward contention which sometimes is indeed brought to passe by the Decrees of your Popes no man daring for feare of his life once to open his mouth against them Such a resolution the scripture cannot giue neither is it to be looked for that the rule of faith should be of that nature It is enough that it shew plainly and certainly what is true in all matters of faith Secondly the controuersies of faith you speake of must be indeed matters that require beleefe otherwise the rule of faith is not to meddle with them To speake more plaine It is not to be held as a duetie of the rule of faith that it should be able to determine of euerie idle question that curious and contentious heads can deuise For example if any man will make question of the Virgin Marie whether she were as you teach fifteene yeare old or perhaps eighteene or nineteen when our Sauiour Christ her Sonne was borne whether she were threescore three whē she died or more or lesse In these a thousād such matters deliuered as points of faith by your Priests and Iesuits it is not to be expected that the rule of faith should affoord any resolution We grant that infinite questions of your schoolemen positiōs of your Diuines cannot be determined by the rule of faith but only thus that they may be cōuinced to be no matters of beleefe that a Christian must needs think thus or thus of thē because they cannot be prooued either one way or other by scripture your proposition therefore is true onely of those things that are needfull to be beleeued all which may be certainly resolued by it What cannot is not of necessitie to be held by faith Your proposition you prooue as you thinke by this reason If there be no sufficient meanes prouided by which schismes and heresies may be auoided and vnitie among Christians conserued vnlesse the rule of faith be able to resolue all such doubts then it must be able to resolue them But there is no sufficient meanes prouided whereby schismes and heresies may be auoided and vnitic conserued vnlesse the rule be able to resolue all such doubts Therefore the rule of faith must be able to resolue them If the proposition be taken in that sense which the former may seeme to haue as I shewed then I denie the consequence therof that is I say it doth not follow that if there be no sufficiēt means prouided whereby schismes and heresies shall de facto and in euēt be auoided vnlesse the rule of faith be able to shew what is true what false in all questions that any man will mooue then the rule must be able so to doe The reason of my deniall is that as before I answered it is sufficient for the rule to shew what is true in matters of faith and let vs know that those are not needfull to be beleeued of the truth whereof it saith nothing anie way The assumption also is false though you speak not of actuall auoiding of heresie and schisme For there is sufficient meanes prouided for the auoiding of schisme because nothing must be held for certain truth which cannot be prooued to be according to the rule which is the onely measure of true vnitie among Christians A. D. §. 4. But the Scriptures be not thus vniuersall For there be diuers questions or doubts moued now a dayes and those also touching very substantiall matters which are not expresly set downe nor determined by onely Scripture For where haue we any expresse Scripture to proue that all those and onely those bookes which Catholickes or Protestants hold for Scripture are indeed Gods word and true Scripure This we shall not find expresly set downe in a part of Scripture This point therefore whereupon dependeth the certaintie of euery point proued out of Scripture cannot be made certaine to our knowledge or beliefe vnlesse we admit some other infallible rule or authoritie wherupon we may ground an vnfallible beleefe which infallible rule if we admit to assure vs that there is at all any Scripture and that those bookes and no other be Canonicall Scripture why should we not admit the same to assure vs vnfallibly which is the true sense and meaning of the same Scripture Hereupon S. Austin saith very well Cur non apud eos diligentissimè requiram quid Christus praeceperit quorum auctoritate commotus Christum aliquid praecepisse iam credidi Tune mihi meliùs expositurus es quid ille dixerit c. Why shold I not most diligently ask or learne of those he meaneth of the Catholicke Church what Christ hath commanded by whose authoritie I was moued to beleeue that Christ commanded any thing at all What wilt thou expound vnto me better what he hath said that is to say the meaning of his words Quae saith he ista tanta dementia est illis crede Christo esse credendum à nobis disce quid ille dixerit multo facilius mihi persuaderem Christo non esse credendum quà m de illo quidquam nisi ab ijs per quos
ei credidissem discendum What a madnesse is this in thee to say beleeue them to wit the Catholickes that we must beleeue Christ and the Scriptures to be his word yet learne of vs what Christ said that is to say what is the meaning of his word I should saith S. Austin much more easily perswade my self that I ought not to beleeue Christ at all then that I must learne any thing concerning him of any except of those of whom I haue already learned to beleeue in him A. W. I denie your principall Assumption wherein you denie the sufficiencie of the Scripture for the determining of all matters of faith For if the Scripture were not sufficient to this purpose it might be lawfull for men to adde to the word of God that which is wanting but that God hath precisely forbiddē all mē Ye shall put nothing to the word which I command you neither shall you take any thing from it out of which Cardinall Caietane saith we may gather that the law of God is perfect But of this place I haue said more other where and our Diuines are large and plentifull in this argument The Apostle Paul affirmeth of him selfe that he preached nothing but that which had bin spoken by Moses and the Prophets yea our Sauiour euery where auoucheth his doctrine by the writings of the old Testament Indeed of whom should we know the will of God but of God himselfe who doubtlesse hath not deliuered it so sparingly in so many seuerall bookes but that it containeth whatsoeuer is needfull to saluation All things indeed that our Lord did are not written but those saith Cyril that the writers thought to be sufficient for manners and doctrine I could ouerwhelme you with testimonies of the Fathers in this matter A few shall serue The Canonicall Scripture saith Austin is the rule of all The letters of Bb. are reprehended by some other of grauer authoritie Generall Councels correct prouinciall and the former are amended by the latter Let the Scripture be iudge saith another and let those doctrines be held for true that agree with it For the law of God or Scripture as Chrysostom saith is a most exact ballance square and rule Therefore let vs passe by that which he or he thinkes and let vs enquire all things of the Scriptures The holy Scriptures inspired by God are sufficient to shew the truth And therfore as Hilary saith wisely and religiously It were well we would content our selues with those things that are written If we will not this is Basils censure of vs that we are without faith and proud It is a manifest argument of infidelitie saith Basil and a certaine signe of pride if any man reiect ought that is written or attempt to bring in any thing that is not written Therefore Damascen saith that the Church receiueth acknowledgeth and reuerenceth all things that are deliuered by the law the Prophets the Apostles and Euangelists and further seeketh not for any thing I pray you shew me some reason if you can why the Lord that doth not omit necessary matters repeateth those that are lesse needful to be known should fil so many bookes of Scripture with the same histories and points of doctrine oftentimes rehearsed and quite leaue out many things of farre greater importance then some of those are which he hath caused to be written Without the knowledge of many things recorded in the Scriptures a man may be saued but you denie saluation to all men that beleeue not whatsoeuer you teach them and there is no end of your deuices though it haue no warrant in any part of Scripture Is it not better then to rest only vpon that which both you and we acknowledge to be the word of God then to giue an infinite libertie to men of deuising what they wil to lay a grieuous burthē vpon our selues to beleeue vnder pain of damnation whatsoeuer they wil father vpō I know not what impossibilitie of erring Let him that hath eyes see though the blind delight in blindnesse The weaknesse of your principall Assumption concerning the insufficiencie of the Scriptures you striue to fortifie with this slender reason If there be diuers questions moued now a dayes touching substantiall matters which are not expresly set downe nor determined by onely expresse Scripture then the Scripture is not able to resolue all such doubts But there are diuers such questions Therefore the Scripture is not able to resolue all such doubts Ere I answer directly to your syllogisme I must note two things in the propounding of it First by whom the questions you speake of are moued If by Papists it is the shame and sinne of your Church to suffer idle and needlesse questions to be moued of which there can be no determination but by a Councel to be held no man knoweth how many yeares hence euer or neuer If you say these questions are set on foote by vs all the world may discerne your vntruth For we are certainly perswaded that it is not lawfull to accept any doctrine as a point of faith which cannot be proued by the Scriptures But you will say We thinke they are determinable by Scripture though indeed they be not At the least then answer the proofes we bring out of Scripture and on our part the controuersie is ended You wil reply that we will not be answered but interprete Scripture as we list Who sees not that this is a meere slander since we stand not vpon any priuate reuelations but on those rules of interpretation which the fathers according to the light of true reason haue left vs as it were by legacy But this reply is also otherwise insufficient For whereas you yeeld as appeares by this reason that some things may be determined by Scripture this obiection denies that any point of doctrine whatsoeuer can be resolued of by it because if that you say be true we wil in all cases interprete Scripture as we please Secondly I obserue another point in respect of the time If the questions you meane be such as were neuer moued till now and the Scripture neuer failed in any former doubts which seems to be implied in that speech Now a dayes me thinkes there is no shew of reason to imagine that so many and so capitall heresies for the space of 1500 years should be refuted and ouerthrowne by Scriptures and now at the last matters of lesse importance and yet as you say very substantiall should haue no meanes of satisfaction by the like course Doubtlesse if the Scripture hath hitherto bene sufficient it is no small wrong to suspect and accuse it now of insufficiencie especially in very substantiall matters necessary to be beleeued Now concerning your syllogisme I denie the consequence of your propositiō What is the Scripture so poore and weake that it can determine nothing which is not expresly set downe
no man euer dreamed of viz. that we commonly build our faith vpon our English translation So that the Scripture may well be the rule of faith for ought that you haue said against it concerning the first propertie of certaine truth which it were blasphemie to denie of the scripture For the second that the rule must be easie to vnderstand I haue shewed that there is no necessitie of that condition and that the scripture is easie in matters necessary to saluation In the last point of the scriptures defect touching many things that must needs be beleeued you do both wrong God in making his word writtē so vnperfect and by a foolish craft insteed of proouing that the scripture containeth not all matters of faith needfull to saluation vndertake to shew that which no man denieth that all points of beleefe are not expresly set down and determined by scripture And lest we should forget your shuffling in this point you offer new proofe of a needlesse matter from the authoritie of Austin Basil and Epiphanius whose testimonies I alledged before to prooue the sufficiencie of the scripture in all matters necessarie to saluation The places by you alledged are not of such matters neither speake of things not expresly contained but onely shew that for matters of fact ceremonie the Apostles haue not determined al particulars The Apostles saith Austin haue commaunded nothing touching not rebaptising them which haue bene baptised by hereticks but the custome which was pleaded against Cyprian is to be beleeued to haue had beginning from their tradition as there are many things which the Church euery where holdeth that we wel beleeue therefore to haue beene enioyned by the Apostles though they are not found written What is this to prooue that there are matters necessarie to be beleeued to saluation which are not exprest in the scriptures Basil was not the the author of that Treatise at the least of the latter part of it from about the 17. chapter and so forward That appeareth first by obseruing the difference of style being neither like Basils writing nor in one place like an other as Erasmus hath truly obserued who translated it Secondly by the fond discourse he maketh propounding one thing handling an other and concluding a third which not onely Basil would neuer haue done but no man of any discretion Last of all he bewraieth himselfe to be a counterfeit by speaking of Meletius as one dead long before who liued in his time ouerliued him as it is manifest by the Ecclesiasticall historie But admit the booke were Basils what is there in it to proue that all points of doctrine which appertaine to true Christian faith are not expresly set downe in Scripture This Author saith that we must beleeue oraditions VVhat In matters of doctrine There is no such word in him He speaketh of outward carriage in ceremonies and phrases of speech The question in that part of his Treatise is of the preposition with that is to speake that euery man may vnderstand whether it be lawfull to say in the Church seruice and otherwise Glorie be to the Father and to the Sonne with the holy Ghost or whether we must needs say and to the holy Ghost not with For this speech that author pleades tradition Do we denie any such matter Or do we not acknowledge the libertie and authoritie of the Churches in such matters Who sees not that our custome now is to say Glory be to the Father to the Sonne and to the holy Ghost Not that thereby we condemne the other kind of speech but because in matters left to our libertie we take that which seemeth fittest Epiphanius speaking of praier for the dead which hath no warrant of Scripture is glad to helpe himselfe with the authoritie of tradition telling vs that some things must be held by tradition and not all taken out of the scriptures But Epiphanius doth not say that this is a doctrine or action necessarie to saluation A. D. §. 6. Some obiect against this conclusion that place of S. Paul Omnis Scriptura diuinitùs inspirata vtilis est ad docendum c. vt perfectus sit homo c. But this place prooueth nothing against that which I haue said For it saith not that scripture alone is sufficient to instruct a man to perfection but that it is profitable for this purpose as it is indeed and the rather because it commendeth vnto vs the authoritie of the Church which as I shall afterwards proue is sufficient Now it is certaine that to be profitable and to be of it selfe alone sufficient be farre different things Stones and Timber be profitable to the building of an house yet they alone without a worke-man to square them and set them in order be not sufficient for this purpose A. W. Of this place I haue spoken sufficiently otherwhere and shewed that the Scriptures are able to make vs wise to saluation and therefore sufficient to that purpose Now the Apostle hauing giuen that commendation to the scripture vers 15. proceedeth in the next to exemplifie that in particular which he had before said in generall It is able to make thee wise to saluation it is able to fit thee to teaching reproouing correcting instructing Can any reasonable man thinke that the Apostle deliuering by way of amplification his former commendation of the scripture that he might the rather stirre vp Timothie to the studie of it would say lesse then he had done before But it is a great deale lesse to say no more but the scripture is profitable to such purposes then to commend it as able to make a man wise to saluation Therefore though the word indeed doe not expresly signifie sufficiencie yet it cannot be doubted but the profit mentioned implieth such a sufficiencie especially since he addeth perfection which must arise from this word of God And so as I haue shewed elsewhere do Chrysostome and Theophylact vnderstand it who make the Apostle speake to Timothie to this effect that he being now to be offred vp leaueth the scriptures in his steed of which he may in all things take aduise and counsell as if the Apostle himselfe were present with him But you forsooth would make vs beleeue that the scripture is indeed profitable to this end but not sufficient Is not the knowledge of arts tongues philosophy and history of verie good vse also to this purpose Slender then too slender is the commendation our Apostle giueth the scriptures if it be of no greater excellēcy then these humane furtherances but only in a certain degree of profit To helpe the matter you propound one particular for which the scripture is profitable namely to commend vnto vs the authority of the Church But neither doth it cōmend to vs any such authority as you imagin if that be the rule of the scripture one sentēce had bin as good better then
iniuriously you deale with vs herein a blind man may see For we neither claime any such priuiledge of being free from errour in citing and vnderstanding Scripture nor desire to be any farther beleeued for translation or interpretation then we can approue them by euident reason And this you knew well enough and are ready with the rest of your complices to accuse vs of referring all to euery mans priuate spirit But malice is as wel without sight as without shame That of Saint Austin we acknowledge to be most true and find it verified by your Rhemish translation and the applicatiō of Scripture in your Canon law and Schoole-mens writings out of which it is easie to bring a cloud of witnesses to this purpose For the other place of Austin you quote two treatises his 18. tract vpon Iohn and his 222. epistle to Consentius In the former whereof there is no such word to be found nor any such epistle either in the Basil or the old Paris print But in your late edition of Austin at Paris both the epistle and the words are wherein Austin maketh the misunderstanding of the Scriptures the occasion of heresie Who denieth it This may serue vs to proue that the ignorance of the Scriptures is exceeding dangerous euen as Chrysostome saith the cause of all euils In another place the same Austin telleth vs that men are for nothing else hereticks but because not rightly vnderstanding the Scriptures they obstinately maintaine their owne opinions against the truth of them And Tertullian goeth somewhat further shewing that heresies durst not peepe vp without some occasion taken by the Scriptures But he addes that those very heresies may be conuinced by the Scriptures If we misinterprete the Scriptures why do not you great Clearkes that haue the spirit tied to your Church refute our false interpretations by the Scriptures Do we refuse this triall Is it not that we stil vrge to haue all things examined by the Scriptures or is there any thing you more feare then to be confined to the Scriptures What though the diuell and hereticks alledge them Did not our Sauiour himselfe say so too What plea can you make wherein some heretickes haue not gone before you Will you brag of the Church Hereticks also both thinke and say they are of the Church yea they are in all things so like true professors that in Antichrists time as an ancient author speaketh there is no meanes of triall left but the Scripture If you vrge tradition so do heretickes too running vp and downe right like you Papists from tradition to Scripture and from Scripture to tradition They pleade Councels as well as you The Arians obiect diuers against Austin and other writers As for the Fathers was not Austin prest by the Donatists with Agrippin and Cyprian Did not the heretick Dioscorus cry out in the Councel of Chalcedon I haue the testimonies of the holy Fathers Athanasius Gregorie Cyrill I vary not from them in any point I am cast out with the Fathers I defend the fathers doctrine I haue their iudgement extant in their bookes Neither may we rest vpon miracles To let passe what before I said of that point remember what Austin saith Pontius say the Manichees did a miracle Donat prayed and God answered him from heauen The Scripture onely is the true touchstone in these cases if it be hard Let him that hath an heart saith Austin reade those things that go before and those that follow and he shall find the sense A. D. § 7. Wherefore there is no reason whereby we may be assured that such men haue the spirit of God but we may find many reasons to conuince that they haue not this spirit And to omit for breuitic sake the seeking out of any other euen the singularitie or priuatnesse of their spirit is sufficient not onely to moue vs to suspect it but also to condemne it and to assure vs that it cannot be the spirit of truth as it is very well signified by Saint Austin who saith Veritas tua Domine nec mea est nec illius sed omnium quos ad eius communionem publicè vocas terribiliter admonens nos ne eam habere velimus priuatam ne priuemur ea Nam quisquis id quod tu ad fruendū omnibus proponis sibi propriè vendicat suum esse vult quod omniū est à communi propellitur ad sua id est à veritate ad mendaciū Thy truth O Lord is neither proper to me nor him but common to all whom thou doest publikly call to the common partaking of it warning vs terribly to take heed that we will not haue it priuate to our selfe least we be depriued of it For whosoeuer doth challenge that to himselfe priuatly which thou doest propose publickly to be enioyed of all and will haue that his owne which is common to all he is driuen from the common to his owne that is to say from the truth to a lie A. W. To refute this conceit of a priuate spirit which was not worth this ado you argue from the singularitie or priuatenesse of it as if it could not be true because it is not agreeable to the common opinion And surely he that shall be so arrogant and shamelesse as to denie all the points of Religion commonly held vpon a presumption that himselfe onely hath the spirit of God is fitter to be cut off by the Magistrates sword then confuted by the word of Scripture But it is very possible that in some points and places some one man without any reuelation by diligent searching and prayer may finde out that which no other man yet knoweth at least for interpretation of Scripture as it falleth out euery day amongst both Protestants and Papists Therefore your Cardinall Caietan doubteth not to say that God hath not tied the exposition of the Scriptures to the senses of the Fathers and therefore asketh no more then reason when he willeth the Reader not to be offended or mislike it if sometimes himselfe hit vpon a new sense agreeable to the text though it go against the streame of the fathers For which though Canus reproue him without cause Andradius iustly defendeth him And why should he not since as Domingo a Soto witnesseth one mans authoritie and learning draweth numbers after him to his opinion By reason of a saying of Saint Austins saith Soto all the fathers after his time and all the Diuines with one consent haue worthily affirmed that the glorious Virgin neuer committed any actual sinne for all Chrysostome auncienter then he thought the contrary Yet was Austins iudgement in this case but priuate and for truth inferiour to Chrysostomes If publicknesse or generall consent should cary the matter how chance Paphnutius withstood all the rest of the famous Councel of Nice and preuailed We ought saith Picus Earle of Mirandula to
well make an end of answering to this treatise because I haue ouerthrowne the maine strength of your discourse and discouered to all men that will not be wilfully blind the weaknesse of your reason but for the better satisfaction of the vnlearned I will follow you from Chapter to Chapter that the truth may the more easily be discerned A. D. CHAP. XI That the Church whose doctrine must be to vs the rule of faith must alwayes continue without interruption from Christ his time till the worlds end A. W. That there alwayes hath bene since the beginning of the world excepting perhaps the time betwixt the fall of our first parents and their faith in the Messiah that there is and alwaies shal be a Church viz. certaine men that are predestinate to life and actually beleeue in Iesus Christ it neuer came into any of our minds to be doubted of that there should be such a companie as you conceipt all the Papists in the world cannot proue A. D. §. 1. Considering what hath bene proued in the former Chapter about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope no Christian will deny but that so long as this Church doth continue we haue of it a sure pillar and a firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleef For either a man must deny that euer our Sauiour did make any such promise gaue such charge and commission left any such warrant set forth such a commaundement or thundred out any such threats as before is rehearsed which were to denie the Scriptures which scriptures are generally receiued by all Christians no otherwise then as they are the vndoubted word of God or else he must wrest the interpretation thereof both from that which the words of themselues naturally yeeld and also from the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world or else he shall be forced to confesse that which not I but Saint Paul hath said Ecclesia est columna firmamentum veritatis the Church is the pillar and ground of truth Onely it may perchance seeme to some of those that doe at this day oppose themselues against the authority of the Church that this was true for Saint Pauls time and perhaps for some three foure fiue or six hundred yeares after but not to be presumed vpon in latter times and namely when Luther began his reformation as they tearme it or now adaies A. W. Considering how weake your proofes haue bene as in the former Chapters so namely in the last about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope there is no reasonable man not only no Christian that will build his faith and saluation vpon so tottering a pillar and so slipperie a foundation But because you seeme to dote so much vpon your last Chapter I wil once againe be content to examine the substance of it as it is here repeated by you with some litle alteration Either we must denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted threatned or we must falsely interprete the scriptures or else we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our faith But we neither may denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commaunded threatned neither may we falsely interpret the Scriptures Therefore we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleefe First in general for your whole syllogisme if the cōclusion you intend were no other thē that you pretēd propoūd that the Church is the pillar groūd of truth as S. Paul saith there would be no question in this matter betwixt vs. For we haue learned to acknowledge the truth of all and euerie part of the scripture But the beginning of this Chapter sheweth that you meane by the Churches being the pillar and ground of truth that we may safely build our beleefe vpon the Churches authority which as I prooued in my answer to that Chapter is no part of the Apostles meaning In this sense must we take your conclusion Secondly in particular I denie your Maior because your disiunction is naught presuming a necessitie where there is none For neither we need to denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commanded threatned neither is there any cause why we should falsely interprete the Scriptures and yet we haue no reason to grant that our faith may safely be built vpon the authoritie of the Church No such thing as I haue shewed can follow vpon the words of scripture alledged by you Therefore we need not denie the promises charge warrant commandement or threatning of our Sauiour or else grant the Church such an vnlimited authority Neither will the true sense of those Scriptures either enforce or beare any such illation or conclusion touching the infallible authoritie of the Church And whereas you thinke to face out the matter with naming the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world my answer propounding the iudgement of many excellently learned and ancient writers of those places prooueth that to be but a vaine popish brag without all likelihood of truth especially since you that spare not to heape vp testimonies of Fathers when they are needlesse and to quote their bookes and chapters sometimes for a bare phrase alledge not so much as the name of any one author for the proofe of your interpretation of twelue seuerall places of scripture Your proffered seruice in helping vs with this distinction hath more shew of kindnesse then good meaning For it is not brought in to confirme our answer but to giue your selfe occasion of vttering that which you are taught to vrge for proofe of this question But we neither need your aide and haue good cause to suspect your fauours In a word your distinction is such as none of vs euer brought or would bring to answer those places of scripture We confesse that whatsoeuer was promised to the Church in those texts was promised for continuance to the end of the world but we say that the first promise was not concerning the Churches not erring the three last are particular to the Apostles at least for such a measure of teaching But what should I repeat that which was deliuered in the verie last Chapter The thing you harpe vpon though vntunably is that your Romish church or rather the Church of the East West were indeed the pillar and ground of truth for the space of some 600. yeares after Christ but afterwards fell away from that soundnesse of doctrine which before it had cleaued vnto Such a matter there is acknowledged by our Diuines yet no man saith either that the Church erred not in any point during that